Pages 1 to 297 -- "Readings in U.S.A. and Canada, 1950" (Volume 186).
Matthew 1:1,2, 16 - 25; Matthew 2:1 - 12
J.T. It is hoped to make certain special selections from this gospel, covering broadly the whole book up to chapter 26, so that there may be a clear view by the help of the Lord as to the gospel itself, especially the place the assembly has in it and how the Lord's supper enters into it too. So that we need to give attention to what has been written and what has just been read, that as we proceed, the young may follow what is in mind and become instructed; because it is a time for the young; it is the learning time -- hence these early verses. One thing that comes to mind is the fact that the kingship of Christ comes into evidence at once; the word is, "Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham". That is, it is the King, "Son of David", first, and then "Son of Abraham". And so the prevalence of references to such matters as kingship and governorship will come into our minds in this book and we shall have to follow them to see why they should be there, especially the word 'governor'; that is, that the idea of rule is predominating. So that the king is in mind at once, that is, David; not Abraham first, but David the king.
J.S. One able to give effect to the promises, would you say?
J.T. Just so, but to be authoritative too; one who can speak with authority.
J.H.P. So that the angel refers even to Joseph as son of David.
J.T. Just so; I think we shall do well to pay attention to that. In New York recently we have had the subject of manhood and we came on to David as part of the subject of manhood. David and Samuel were taken together as they represent a peculiar quality in manhood, and especially as David himself is a type of the Lord Jesus, a peculiar type of the Lord Jesus. God said, "I have found David ... a man after my heart, who shall do all my will", (Acts 13:22).
C.H.H. It says in Psalm 2:6, "I have anointed my king upon Zion".
Ques. Would you tell us why the book starts with "the generation of Jesus Christ"? Would you say this has new creation in view?
J.T. It is the generation of Jesus Christ, and then as we said before, "Son of David, Son of Abraham". That is to say, the idea of generation has to be noted to start with, so that it begins with Christ Himself. The word 'generation' begins in the Old Testament in the second chapter of Genesis and it runs along to about twelve references. Now it appears here again, and it is Christ that is in mind; it is the generation of Jesus Christ.
R.P. Would it be right at this point to speak of Him as "the root and offspring of David"? (Revelation 22:16).
J.T. Quite so, the root is His deity, and the offspring is His manhood. The bright and morning star is the illuminating thought that runs throughout, the whole universe is illuminated with it, "the bright and morning star".
R.W.S. Along with the authority there is thought of severity, is there not, which would eliminate from our minds any thought of democracy in the assembly?
J.T. That is a good word. The historical reference to all men being created equal is a fallacy; it is not true. They are not created equal at all. Therefore
we ought to begin with that and dismiss from our minds the idea of democracy. That is not the leading thought at all, it is a question of manhood.
F.J.F. In the feudal system which governed England for a long time the king was supreme; he was the head of the system, and he was supreme.
J.T. Well, the supremacy of a king in England is not very much; but when we are told to be subject "to the king as supreme", who is that (1 Peter 2:13)? Peter is referring to someone that represents God in authority.
A.N.W. Matthew speaks of the Lord's face on the mount, shining as the sun; that seems to be special to Him. It is supremacy.
C.F.E. You are stressing the thought of kingship in this chapter. Are we to come under the authority of this King?
J.T. Surely; Matthew has that in mind, the authority that enters into the truth of the assembly; we must have authority to work out the truth of the assembly.
V.C.L. Does kingship coming in so early in the book help us to have right assembly thoughts as seeing the pre-eminence of Christ?
J.T. I think the assembly is to support the idea set out in the Lord Jesus. The assembly is a feminine idea, but it is to support the masculine, the divine thought in manhood. The divine thought in Scripture is the masculine, and the assembly is the counterpart of it; divine thoughts could not work out without the idea of the feminine.
Rem. So when Joseph is introduced the generations are immediately brought in: "These are the generations of Jacob. Joseph ..." (Genesis 37:2), linking the generations very prominently with Joseph.
J.T. Because Joseph was so personally prominent that he took precedence really of his predecessors. The generations of Jacob begin with Joseph, a
remarkable thing. Of course the other sons of Jacob were born earlier, most of them, but the generations of Jacob in the mind of the Spirit begin with Joseph, showing that God has His own right which He asserts in certain persons. He wants to make Joseph a leader in His thoughts in the Scripture, so that He speaks of Joseph and passes by the others.
R.W.S. What you have just said is, I think, a very important remark as to the masculine side being seen in Christ and the feminine side in the assembly. Would you say that is the divine thought?
F.J.F. Is that why it says that "Upon thy right hand doth stand the queen in gold of Ophir", in Psalm 45:9? Does that complete the thought?
J.T. It is what runs through the Old Testament as to femininity, as to queenship. Nehemiah says of the king that the queen was beside him and the book of Esther is full of the thought of the queen. Vashti is set aside to make way for Esther, that is, God's mind must come in, and that is the assembly. God has His own way of making way for things, and that removes mine; He has no hesitation in setting aside persons if they stand in His way.
J.H.T. Is the assembly ever in the view of this earth as queen, in the millennium for instance?
J.T. I suppose she is; at His right hand, it says in Psalm 45, "doth stand the queen in gold of Ophir".
A.N.W. When Pharaoh gave Joseph the name of Zaphnath-paaneah the record is that at the same time he "gave him as wife Asnath the daughter of Potipherah the priest in On", (Genesis 41:45).
J.T. There is much more made of Asnath than I used to think myself, and I believe many here if they will look into the facts will find that Asnath is much more really in the word and the mind of God than might be thought.
C.H.H. In Nehemiah matters of administration seem to be more favourable when the queen is sitting by the king.
J.T. Quite so, "the queen also sitting by him" (Nehemiah 2:6); that is, she confirmed the whole position. She did not say anything though, but she was there.
J.H.P. So the dear sisters are not left out in this chapter.
J.T. That is the idea, and that is what God has helped us in, that we must bring them in in these meetings.
J.H.P. I was thinking of the three that are mentioned here, and then the fourth, although she only comes in in the name of her husband; but I wondered if the three would set forth suggestions of the assembly as supporting Christ?
J.T. And some of them are very questionable characters, outwardly, as you know, but we can take them as they stand. Why should they be mentioned as they are? For instance, it says "Thamar", and Thamar would be a questionable character. Then "Rachab", and "her that had been the wife of Urias". Will you quote them all, Mr. P.?
J.H.P. There is Thamar in verse three, and then Rachab and Ruth in verse five; and the fourth is not even given a name, it just says, "David begat Solomon, of her that had been the wife of Urias".
J.T. She is distinguished in that she had such a husband, that is the idea. These women have a remarkable place in this genealogy, and why is it that God is disregarding human thoughts and setting them aside to bring in His own thoughts? This genealogy we might say is full of that sort of thing, that is to say, it is full of the rights of God where human rights or feelings or pretensions have to disappear. God will set them aside without question, and we may have to face all of this. We are dealing
with Matthew because the assembly is in Matthew; the assembly is the great thought in Matthew.
J.H.P. So would the questionableness that you refer to correspond with the reproach in which the assembly now is, in which we are in measure today?
J.T. Right here today in this great capital of the United States. How many of us are there here? There are very few, but what are we to God? What is the divine portion? What is there in the presidency as compared to the rights of God amongst us here today? That is the thing to get at.
A.R. When you use the word 'assembly', have you in mind what is feminine all the time?
J.T. Pretty much. Of course you might have unconverted people feminine, but we are thinking of what is of God, what God approves.
J.H.T. In what aspect does the assembly really come in in Matthew? The Lord brings it in when Peter makes his confession, and He says, "On this rock I will build my assembly", (Matthew 16:18). What aspect of the assembly would that be? It is not the bridal thought there, is it?
J.T. Sometimes the neuter takes the place of the feminine, for instance, "hades' gates shall not prevail against it". We have not 'she' or 'her' there, but "it". The 'it' is the assembly, but generally speaking the assembly is feminine.
A.N.W. So the 'my' in "my assembly", might very well allow the Lord to view it femininely.
R.W.S. Authority could hardly be placed in a more attractive way than in the assembly being subjected to the Christ, could it? Does that not help us to be subject as we see the supreme place that Christ has as King?
J.T. Just so. So with wives being subject "to their own husbands" (Ephesians 5:24), the word 'own' is striking,
"their own husbands" gives full place to the husband, the masculine.
Ques. Would you say the fact that God's will goes through would indicate the seriousness of our standing in the way? You were saying that God has His own mind and He sets persons aside if they stand in the way. How serious it would be to stand in the way! Adonijah presumed to stand in the way, did he not?
J.T. Yes, quite so; and how we need wisdom in regard of all these matters! Nathan the prophet intervened and took matters up, and God was so fully with him that he settled the whole matter as to Solomon. Adonijah said, "I will be king" (1 Kings 1:5), but Nathan intervened and went to Bathsheba and gave her good counsel. She was not so wise as she might have been. She is mentioned here in this chapter in Matthew but Nathan had to put her right; he got her to go to the king and put the right man before him; and the whole point here would be that we should proceed as to the right Man, that the right Man may come in. Bathsheba was a good sort of person in a certain sense but she was mistaken, and foolish too. She was not a reliable person, but at the same time she is brought in here, and for a good reason undoubtedly, because she had to do with Solomon. And she was the wife of Urias, she had to do with that man, and he was a great warrior on Jehovah's side. But we get weakness even with women like Bathsheba, a peculiar kind of weakness. We have to be on our guard about such weakness, we want the peculiar qualities that are according to God, the qualities of manhood -- because the word 'man' covers woman as well as man. We want the right quality, the ability to stand for the right. Eve failed in that, because she listened to Satan; and so we may have the sisters failing seriously if they are not retaining the quality of manhood as
God has endowed it and put it forward for us. I thought these readings would bring out that whether man or woman, we should be sure to discriminate properly as to what belongs to God, as to the rights of God.
W.W.M. So it says in regard of Samuel, that he mourned over Saul; but God said to him, "Fill thy horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite; for I have provided me a king among his sons" (1 Samuel 16:1). I have provided a king. That was what God had in mind, was it not?
J.T. Samuel, great man though he was, failed in regard to Eliab. I mean to say whether we are sisters or brothers, we are not always right in discriminating in favour of the rights of God; because it is a prime thought, this matter of the rights of God; whenever He wants to assert them others have to give way.
E.A.L. Would you say it is a great lesson that the subjective element must take on the truth through the prophetic element? That is, Nathan was used to adjust Bathsheba so that Solomon had his right place.
J.T. Nathan is a saving element throughout that section. Even David himself was a failure. Everything hinged on Nathan.
E.A.L. So that is all to stress how important the prophetic line should be to us.
F.N.W. Does God assert His rights in Isaiah 7 when He speaks of Immanuel, and is there some subjective response to that in the saints in chapter 9 where it is said, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given"? The first thing mentioned about that Person is that the government is upon His shoulder.
J.T. And so it is important to see in our chapter that it is said of the Lord, "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel", that is, "God with
us"; there is the point, God with us. And then it goes on to say, "But Joseph, having awoke up from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had enjoined him". Joseph here is thoroughly subject. So you get one after another throughout this book in whom God is asserting His rights, and they have to give way. But then there are those on the other hand who are already subject, and they are filling out the divine mind. So what has been alluded to in Isaiah is here in this chapter before us.
F.N.W. And do you not think that the greatness of Christ is made way for in the assembly as the rights of God are recognised? I was thinking of what is said of Christ in Isaiah 9, following the statement that the government shall be on His shoulder, "and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace".
A.J.E.W. Does this chapter show how God can hide His choicest thoughts and operations from men publicly? I was thinking that this genealogy runs right through to completion in spite of much history in the intervening time. And then Herod seeking to find out more of this matter is defeated, is he not? Herod is not able to secure his end through these magi.
J.T. Quite so. He dies; that is, he is taken out of the way, as the Herod in Acts 12 was, who was eaten of worms. I mean that God does assert His rights in that way and takes people out of the way in judgment.
R.W.S. Would "another way" in verse 12 of chapter 2 indicate the spiritual side which does conceal these matters from the public eye? It says, "They departed into their own country another way".
J.T. It was not the way the enemy would have them go, they went another way of their own choice. It was the right way, just as Rahab sent back the
spies another way. And that is the idea, and it defeats the devil.
E.E.H. How is it that the announcement of kingship comes through the magi?
J.T. That is another point that we cannot pass by because it is a leading point in the second chapter. They were gentiles but they were looking for the king that was born to the Jews. It says, "Now Jesus having been born in Bethlehem of Judaea, in the days of Herod the king, behold magi from the east arrived at Jerusalem, saying, Where is the king of the Jews that has been born?". It is important that the magi say that, and the star is working with them; they are apparently astronomers, and they are the kind of people that God takes up, to carry out His will. And so the star is working with them.
F.J.F. Would you connect that at all with Psalm 19:1, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork"?
R.W.S. Are these features which are early in the book to help us in the subject matter of the book, and in the understanding of the thought of authority in the assembly, and of wisdom as represented by the magi, wisdom in the assembly?
J.T. Just so; the whole passage deserves a great place because these men come out from the gentiles. You might say it is the sovereign action of God to bring these men in. It says, "Now Jesus having been born in Bethlehem of Judaea, in the days of Herod the king, behold magi from the east arrived at Jerusalem" -- they are from the east, they are not Jews, they are gentiles -- "saying, Where is the king of the Jews?" That is to say it is a question of the divine rights in Israel, and the King is there, and they are looking for Him. God is working with them. So it says, "Where is the king of the Jews that has been born? for we have seen his star in the east, and have
come to do him homage". It is called His star, the magi call it His star; but who are these magi? who are they? Apparently they are men who are engaged with the stars, and why should not God use men of that type, even if they are not Jews, if they bring in Christ? Even if that is their profession, why should not God use them to work out His thoughts? All that is Matthew's presentation, the rights of God in bringing out His thoughts whatever men may think.
V.C.L. Does it not raise a question with us? These magi saw something and it raised a spirit of inquiry, while Herod had only curiosity. Would that not be a challenge as to what we have seen of what God is doing, and whether we are here on those lines?
J.T. Quite so; but it was not only curiosity with Herod, it was devilish opposition to Christ. It was not a curious thing merely; it was wickedness, because he had murder in his heart. These are Matthew features, but God is going to dispose of this man; he is in His way and God will dispose of him; he will die, which he did. But then he put children to death too, showing how far man's will will go against God.
B.W. Is it not interesting that after they had come to the king, and then had seen the little child, they were divinely instructed? It speaks in the footnote to verse 12 of an answer received after consultation. They were divinely instructed.
J.T. Just so, they were divinely instructed not to return to Herod, not to do it. That is to say, God was against Herod.
Rem. As to their being divinely instructed, the footnote says it is 'an answer after consultation'. They were looking for an answer in regard to this matter. Often when we pray we do not look for an answer.
J.T. It is important to see all these things mentioned, and how God comes down to these facts. There is occasion with these magi for consultation, for taking wise counsel about a matter like this. And how often it comes up amongst the brethren, the need for wise counsel and for waiting about things to see how they should work out! And they will work out if we wait on God about them.
J.F. Is the acknowledgment by the magi of the king of the Jews what causes the wickedness to rise in Herod's heart? I was thinking of these magi acknowledging openly that there was a king of the Jews there. Is that the reason for the open wickedness in the heart of Herod in the attempt to destroy?
J.T. It may be, but the wickedness was in the heart of Herod anyway. The Herods were all wicked, every one of them. I mean to say they are a class of people that are characteristically wicked; the devil has them in his hands, and God takes account of them thus. Now Russia is in the devil's hands at the present time. It is a peculiar thing that God has allowed all this to come up in the political world; it is the devil's work, and Russia is in a way representing a class of humanity that is openly against the rights of God.
C.H.H. We have been speaking about the consultation that took place with the wise men, and there was what took place between Abigail and her young man. What comes to light after that is the wickedness of Nabal so that, like Herod, he is removed out of the way and the road is made clear for David.
J.T. Abigail, of course, is a type of the assembly, and the young man with whom she was consulting gave good advice. That is, we can count on persons like that in the assembly, persons of good judgment.
A.R. Russia is not really against Rome, is she? She is against the assembly.
J.T. She is against Rome too because it suits her. She is characteristic of what at the moment is against God. Not that we are going into politics, only that the peculiar character of communism is over the world; it is behind things in the world, and the devil has got hold of it. That is a remarkable thing, that no matter what you see in the public information of the day, the devil has got hold of that system.
A.N.W. That would be where the gates of hades are acting; the gates of hades are behind all of that.
Ques. Is that why we have had so much counsel in the ministry as to what to say before the tribunals and all that kind of thing? Is that where wisdom works out so that we do not damage the Lord in what we say?
J.T. Quite so. Wisdom is seen with Abigail in the young man that she used; wisdom was working there. And wisdom was working with Nathan too in connection with Bathsheba. So that there is wisdom available and we have to count on God for wisdom against certain elements in this world.
L.W. Do the magi display wisdom here in not opposing Herod? They go as they are sent, but they are open to divine instruction so that they do not return to Herod.
J.T. Quite so, they disregard Herod. He expected them to act for him, but they wisely acted for the Lord; they acted for what was right. They returned the other way, they did not take Herod's way.
F.J.F. Would not the instruction now be by the Spirit, the divine instruction as to what to do, we having the Spirit with us? We do not need dreams now, do we?
J.T. It is wonderful what the brethren can get from the Spirit. Just about two years ago a brother in England wrote to me and said, 'What I am impressed with in the way the Spirit is coming before us now is that you can commune with Him'. It
touched me very much and it has affected me ever since. The Spirit of God is here on our account, and is always near; Scripture says, "The Lord is near", (Philippians 4:5); and in truth the word shows that the Spirit is always near to help us.
R.P. Would you say a word as to the part the Holy Spirit has in this matter, in the first chapter especially? It says in verse 18, "She was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit"; and lower down it says, "For that which is begotten in her is of the Holy Spirit".
J.T. It is the Spirit Himself acting; it is the action of the Spirit. It is a wonderful thing that the Spirit of God has come in in a special way in our time. I do not know whether they had the light of it in the time of the revival; I do not think they had; in fact I am sure they had not. But God has given it to us, and it is a question now of what use we are making of it. And the Spirit is here Himself in connection with the birth of Christ, in the conception of the Lord Jesus Christ. So it is said, "Before they came together, she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit", it was His own action. And then again in verse 20, "For that which is begotten in her is of the Holy Spirit". It is the Spirit's own action, and that is the present great fact that has come in for us, this immediate action of the Spirit, and it is helping us in matters.
A.R. And so it says that He hinders; there is not only "that which" hinders, but "he who" hinders; it is His own action, is it not, which bears on what we are saying about governments?
J.T. Yes, quite so. "There is he who restrains now until he be gone" (2 Thessalonians 2:7). That is what we are counting on, that there is something to keep back that awful thing, the apostasy, that we have already alluded to -- "There is he who restrains now until he be gone, and then the lawless one shall be revealed, whom the
Lord Jesus shall consume with the breath of his mouth, and shall annul by the appearing of his coming" (2 Thessalonians 2:7, 8). So the Lord is going to act for us presently in all these wonderful things.
V.C.L. Is not the Spirit of God helping the assembly peculiarly now in keeping the right Man before us?
J.T. That is what He is here for, He is sent from heaven. The Lord Jesus Himself said that He would send another Comforter, and He is here; He will be with us for ever. He is here now, and He is here to look after matters, assembly matters, and we can count on Him.
V.C.L. There is a system which says, "I sit a queen, and I am not a widow" (Revelation 18:7), and is not that the system which has publicly denied the Spirit any place?
J.T. The apostasy is in that system.
G.G.B. Different names are given to the Lord, and is it not remarkable that here His name is given as Emmanuel, God with us? I was wondering whether that is in view of the Spirit's dwelling with us today.
J.T. Just so. How wonderful it is to wake up, it may be at midnight, and something happens, and you feel that the whole domain around you is moving in the right direction; the Spirit of God is there! Why do we not look for that more? The Spirit of God is likely to come in at any time with any one of us.
G.H. I would like to ask for a little help about this use of pronouns. In Ephesians 5:25 it says, "Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it"; and in Romans 8:16 it says, "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God". Why does Paul put it that way -- 'itself' and 'it'?
J.T. 'It' is the neuter; sometimes the Spirit of God is spoken of as 'Him' or 'He', but sometimes 'It' is used. That is quite right, it is just a question of grammar; but the mind of God is in it too. God is entitled to use the neuter when He wants to.
R.W.S. So with "the holy thing". In Luke 1:35, that is the same idea, is it not?
J.T. Yes, "the holy thing also which shall be born", that is the neuter thought too. God is entitled to use these things.
Ques. You were speaking about waking up at night and thinking that the whole domain around you is moving in the right direction. Is that what John experienced in the first of Revelation as being in the Spirit on the Lord's day?
J.T. Quite so; what a marvellous thing it was! "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day", he says, "and I heard behind me a great voice", and he speaks of the voice as something that he might see! One of the most marvellous things in the book of Revelation is what John describes at that time.
Ques. So it is not only on the Lord's day that we can be in the Spirit, is it? I mean that we can be so at many other times; is that not what you are trying to stress, that we ought to be more constantly in the Spirit?
J.T. Quite so; I find, as I mentioned earlier, that you can commune with the Holy Spirit, and you can have Him at any time. It has come home to me ever since. Not that the brother said all that, but I am saying it; he meant that the Spirit of God is ready to be communed with. It is wonderful that He might be with us at any time. He is here, He has come down from heaven, sent from heaven, we are told. The Lord Jesus is not said to be sent from heaven, but the Spirit is said to be so sent. He is here in obedience to carry out the divine will in the assembly.
A.R. So that when we are testifying before these men in the tribunals we can count on His personal support as near us, can we not?
J.T. Quite so. How often it happens too!
R.W.S. And alone, in communion alone, it is a two-way matter, is it not? That is communion, that He will say something to us and we speak to Him.
J.T. Quite so; in fact the word is, "the communion of the Holy Spirit", and that is a two-way matter; just so.
B.W. Is it not interesting that this consultation, this two-way matter, follows upon the worship? That is, the magi opened their treasures; they offered to Him gifts. I was thinking of how this ministry of the Spirit has followed upon much ministry pertaining to the Lord's supper.
J.T. That is good, and that expression, 'a two-way matter', is good, too.
Rem. It says of David that he communed with Abigail with regard to their marriage.
F.J.F. So the Holy Spirit has power over what is physical, has He not? I was thinking of what it says, that "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens", (Job 26:13).
J.T. Quite so, it is a remarkable thing.
J.H.P. I was thinking of what Peter said at Pentecost: "This is that which was spoken through the prophet Joel"; and then he goes on, "I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your elders shall dream with dreams", (Acts 2:16,17). I was wondering if in any way the present conditions and the liberty into which we are brought would correspond with that Scripture?
J.T. Just so; remarkable things were opening up at the advent of the Spirit of God from heaven. And I was going to say something about this matter of
the heavens being opened up to us. The Scripture says that God has made the worlds by the Lord Jesus, "By whom also he made the worlds", (Hebrews 1:2). Now who can tell us how many there are? Wonderful to think of such great things, the worlds, and that God has made them by Christ! and I was thinking of Paul being caught up to the third heaven, and I am only speaking now of what we are all entitled to enter into and enjoy in our quiet moments, what may happen and how we are to understand things that are spoken of in the Scriptures that are in themselves beyond our understanding. But still they are there and therefore Paul says, "I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago ... caught up to the third heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:3). He uses the word 'caught'. Well, where is the third heaven and what did he see? He said, 'I heard things spoken that are not given to men to utter, not lawful for men to utter'. But they are there, unspeakable things. And so the apostle says the second time, 'I was caught up'; but he says, he was caught up into -- into Paradise; not now 'to' the third heaven, but 'into' Paradise. Well, I have to concentrate on this and see what I can make out of it. What are the third heavens? Why should the numeral be there? And then why should Paradise be there? And then I am caught into it. What do I know about that? Really, dear brethren, we are caught into a realm that is wonderful, within our own reach even today, where we are now; these things are within our reach. They are wonderful things and we are in touch with heaven; but then the heaven itself is so beyond anything that one can put into words! But at the same time the area is to be traversed, to be traversed spiritually. But then there is the sphere where God is, where God dwells; He dwells in unapproachable light. We have to realise that. So that we come to a
point where we should be sober and solemnised and become holy and find out these things for ourselves. The Holy Spirit is here; He is not come and gone; He is here to stay for the moment, to open up these things to us, to aid us, so that we might enjoy them and understand them.
Ques. Do you think that as we are found perhaps more frequently in the communion of the Holy Spirit we might come into the understanding of some of these things which Paul saw?
T.N.W. But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit.
J.T. That is right, God has done it.
C.H.H. Matthew is the only one of the gospels that says the heavens were opened to Jesus. Then in Revelation 4 the door is seen opened in heaven and the voice is heard to say, "Come up here", and then John became in the Spirit. I was thinking of the peculiar character of Matthew in bringing heaven in touch with us.
Matthew 5:1 - 26, 43 - 48
J.T. It is a feature of Matthew that mountains are brought forward in relation to the subjects of the book. There are seven of them. This in chapter 5 is the first one. They run on to the end of the book and the last one is where the Lord appears in Galilee to the disciples. In this chapter the Lord is said to have gone up into a mountain; it says, "But seeing the crowds, he went up into the mountain"; the article 'the' is characteristic there. "And having sat down, his disciples came to him; and, having opened his mouth, he taught them". What has been said will help us, I think, as to the objective in this chapter, namely the exhortation in the last verse, "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect". It is as if there is available to us in the instruction the power of inwardness in which to develop in the truth and in what is acceptable to God and effective in the administration, because it is a question of administration in this chapter. It is said of David that he encouraged himself in the Lord his God, meaning that there was inward power to gather himself up in difficult times and adjust himself, adjust himself; not to wait for God to do it, but to do it himself. I thought therefore that what has been remarked should govern our consideration of this chapter. It is what we may call the mount of legislation. There is a mountain called the mount of transfiguration, but here it is the mount of legislation; not simply that we are transfigured but that there is power in us to adjust ourselves. In this mountain of legislation things are to be put right with authority. There is ability granted to us to put ourselves right. We are to be called the sons of
God, and to be among those who see God; marvellous thought, the blessed ones who see God!
A.N.W. By legislation do you mean that He is setting out the laws that govern the kingdom of which He is Head?
J.T. Just so, because everything has to go through; nothing has been written down in a haphazard or light way but in a true way; that is to say, the things have to happen. Nothing shall pass away; He says, "One tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled". Everything must go through that is in the divine mind.
Rem. It is remarkable that in the chapter you alluded to in Samuel it says that "David strengthened himself in Jehovah his God" (1 Samuel 30:6). In that chapter he legislates, because it says there, "For as his share is that goes down to the battle, so shall his share be that abides by the baggage: they shall share alike. And it was so from that day forward; and he made it a statute and an ordinance for Israel to this day", (verses 24,25). He legislated, did he not?
J.T. That is to say, he is the king. David is the king.
J.V.C. If there is to be administration rightly, is it not necessary to come to where the Lord is on this mountain?
J.T. Exactly, that is just what you get here: "But seeing the crowds, he went up into the mountain, and having sat down, his disciples came to him". They came to Him, that is the principle of it. That is to say they are moved, they are governed by what He does. And of course that enters into assembly conduct on our part; because Matthew is the assembly book and as of the assembly we have to learn from it. This matter of coming to the Lord is on elevated ground; it is not, as we get in Luke, on the level where the Lord met His disciples, but here it is elevated ground for legislative purposes.
V.C.L. This position seems to divide between those that are just of the crowds and those who are called disciples, because it says, "his disciples came to him". Does that differentiate between them and the crowds?
J.T. That is the idea, they are discriminated rightly, the word 'disciples' is not the word 'crowds'. The disciples came to Him, the crowds did not come to Him. 'The crowds' is a form of expression that indicates irregularity; they were not regulated properly, whereas the disciples are; they are governed by the Master, the One by whom they are taught. They learn from their Master.
Ques. So in Deuteronomy where we get mount Gerizim and mount Ebal it says that Moses said to the people, "This day thou art become the people of Jehovah thy God", Deuteronomy 27:9. Should we not realise in our relations here that we are the people of God and He has a right to legislate?
J.T. Yes, quite so; we are that if we are. I hope we are realising it here now, and I believe we are. There is such a thing as God legislating, but outside here in Washington the thing is not so.
A.N.W. So it says in Acts that "they ... taught a large crowd", (Acts 11:26); and following on that the idea of the assembly comes into view.
J.T. Just so. Really the assembly is seen in this whole book. The last mountain is the mountain at Galilee where the disciples went and met the Lord by His appointment; He appointed them to meet Him there and they were under control. That is the great feature of the assembly, that we are under the Lord's control.
J.H.P. It says here that "having opened his mouth, he taught them". Would that be that the disciples would have regard for what came out of His mouth?
J.T. For what He was saying. It is said in fact in chapter 4 that "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which goes out through God's mouth", a very precious thought; every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. That is what the Lord said to Satan.
F.J.F. Does the apostle Paul as the great minister of the assembly give us instruction as having come under the Legislator? He says, for instance, "For I received from the Lord ..." (1 Corinthians 11:23).
J.T. Go on further. What did he say he received of the Lord? "That which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread". Is that what you have in mind?
F.J.F. Yes, I have, and that we also as coming under Him continue that. We break bread, it is His mind.
J.T. Just so. We have to wait till chapter 26 of this gospel for that, of course, but we have it distinctly before us to come to that.
F.N.W. Would this link on with the first chapter of Haggai? Verse 8 says, "Go up to the mountain and bring wood, and build the house, and I will take pleasure in it, and I will be glorified, saith Jehovah".
J.T. Just so, but here it is the Lord leading in the thing, while in the passage you allude to the people were to go up to the mountain; they were enjoined to do it as an obligation. Here they move together as disciples, on the principle of discipleship.
R.P. It says, "having opened his mouth, he taught them". Do we get what is authoritative here? And today would we make room for what is authoritative?
J.T. "Having opened his mouth"; God calls attention to man's mouth. The word in Exodus 4:11 is, "Who hath made man's mouth?" What mouth
was there like that of the Lord Jesus! The thought descends to others, to Peter, for instance; it says in Acts 10 that Peter opened his mouth. He took the ground of speaking authoritatively, as being of the apostles; he had apostleship.
A.N.W. Matthew's remark at the close of this series of chapters ending with chapter 7 is, "And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were astonished at his doctrine, for he taught them as having authority, and not as their scribes".
R.W.S. The disciples do not say anything; it is not a two-way matter, is it? I was just looking through this section closing at the end of chapter 7, and I do not notice that the disciples say anything; they do not make any comments or ask any questions. Is there something in that? Our meetings today are more of a conversational character, but that does not mean that there is any less authority in the ministry because of it?
J.T. So in Acts 20, although the apostle himself discoursed in service before the breaking of bread, yet at the end of that section you have him speaking conversationally, and that of course greatly adds to what we are talking about. There is conversational ministry in which we are engaged now, as well as discoursing ministry, which our brother will take on this evening when he gives an address. But now we are engaged conversationally, which is very important; I do not know of any other ministry in the last days that is so effective as conversational ministry.
R.W.S. While we are free and happy to speak, we must not be so active as to hinder the Spirit from bringing out what He has in mind.
A.N.W. How we have proved, have we not, what gainers we are by accepting a lead in such a conversational meeting as this!
J.T. Another thing we have to consider in this matter of ministry is that we have to take account of gift. It is said of the Lord that "having ascended up on high, he has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men" (Ephesians 4:8). Really the question of gifts has to come in; not that one would be occupied with any ability that any one of us may have, but there is such a thing as gift, and gift is a question of power, of gifts given unto men, the power descending from God to men. The wonderful fact is that the Lord Jesus is gone beyond all the heavens in order, that the gifts should come thence, which is one of the most remarkable statements that can be made, that He is beyond all the heavens, and the gifts are from there.
A.R. It says in Acts 20 that they continued till the break of day, so that the authority remains right on to the end. Would that be right?
J.T. Quite so. Will you read the passage where the boy is brought up alive, recovered, and they were not a little comforted?
A.R. "And having gone up, and having broken the bread, and eaten, and having long spoken until daybreak, so he went away".
J.T. "Long spoken", conversationally, a good deal of instructive conversational ministry, and then he went away. The matter is settled. In a case like this we have three days' meetings but we must have a settlement and a result reached in the end. The question is, Do we reach an end? That is the thing to look out for.
Ques. How do our sisters contribute to the conversational meetings that we have?
J.T. They are not supposed to, except in a prayerful attitude. They are to learn in silence; silence is real matter. It is a positive thing in sisters, it is not a negative thing, that they are to learn in silence.
I wonder whether the sisters do learn in silence? What have you to say about this?
Rem. I think that is very good. It shows the power that there is amongst us that sisters can learn in silence.
J.T. It is not a negative silence; the sisters are not negative; they are positive in their inward parts, in their prayers, in the attitude of their minds and feelings. They are doing something, they are carrying on, they are really taking part with us in that sense.
Ques. Does it not show the power of the Spirit amongst us to teach them in silence?
J.T. Quite so; and yet we have to make allowance for the word 'silence' which the apostle uses.
B.W. They should ask questions at home showing that they are alive.
F.N.W. Would the positive side of that inward feature in the sisters be seen where Peter speaks about the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible ornament of a meek and quiet spirit?
J.T. Quite so, the hidden man of the heart.
Ques. Do not the sisters contribute to our meetings in spirit?
J.T. They certainly do. Where should we be if they did not? That is what led up to the suggestion last year in Bristol that the sisters should attend our large meetings for ministry. They are here today, a goodly number of them.
V.C.L. So that the teaching that goes on after the blessings is not a question of male or female exactly, is it? It is a question of disciples being taught.
J.T. Quite so, they are being instructed in a wonderful way, and instructed positively so that they are going to become certain things. How many
features are to be seen in the disciples here? About nine, I think; and what do they all mean? See the different things that are mentioned, and what they are to become -- these listeners on the mountain!
V.C.L. As these 'Blesseds' were read today, I was just wondering as to whether any of these features were true of oneself -- to what extent they were a characteristic feature of oneself. Because they should be in display in some way, should they not?
J.T. Quite so; there are nine Blesseds here, beginning with verse 3, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens. Blessed they that mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed they who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. Blessed the merciful, for they shall find mercy. Blessed the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed the peace-makers, for they shall be called sons of God. Blessed they who are persecuted on account of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens. Blessed are ye when they may reproach and persecute you, and say every wicked thing against you, lying, for my sake. Rejoice and exult, for your reward is great in the heavens; for thus have they persecuted the prophets who were before you" Notice that "they" may be either male or female; they are learners, they are becoming something as listening to Christ. We shall have to discern for ourselves, each one of us, who the persons are that are in mind, who the "ye" may be, whether it is both brothers and sisters. I think that is the idea of the "ye".
A.N.W. You used the term 'abstract', I think, in regard of these first eight. Would the Lord have in mind in turning to the "ye" in the ninth to place it concretely before them?
J.T. Just so. It brings it home very distinctly to them because of the question of persecution.
J.H.P. This first one, "the poor in spirit", would much suggest that our sisters were in that matter, would it not?
J.H.P. Would it speak of the inwardness that you were mentioning earlier?
J.T. Just so; we brought forward David as an example of inwardness; he gathered himself together, so to say. So we have the idea of calling upon all that is within us; it is what is inside. Are we calling upon it?
J.H.T. In all these instances it is, you might say, a spiritual state of mind which is blessed.
Ques. In the reward in verse 12 where it says, "Rejoice and exult, for your reward is great in the heavens", is there an allusion to the Spirit in view of what Peter says in his epistle, that "the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you" (1 Peter 4:14), that is, upon those that are in reproach?
J.T. Yes. So that there is much to suggest the possibility of the sisters coming into all these things.
A.R. So the words "ye are" would include all the saints, would it not? It says in verses 13 and 14, "Ye are the salt of the earth", and, "Ye are the light of the world". I suppose that is really what the saints are today.
L.L.P. Would you say that the grace of Christ is disclosed in the way these proposals are set out, in order that the sisters might have their part in the blessing?
F.J.F. Would the fat of the offering suggest the inwardness, the power that is there, that is pleasing to God? Is this like fat in the saints?
J.T. These nine things are clearly positive in their bearing, they are constitutional, I would say, that is, as building us up as believers. We are coming into
things. These nine things refer to what we come into as learning from the Lord Jesus: "Learn from me", He says elsewhere, "Learn from me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest to your souls" (Matthew 11:29).
L.W. Why does the Lord use the expression, 'the kingdom of the heavens' so often in this chapter, rather than 'the kingdom of God'? Later on He uses the latter but not here.
J.T. The kingdom of God is in a sense what we call moral, just moral. The kingdom of the heavens is referring to elevation, to moral elevation. The significance of the term, the kingdom of God, is that it is the moral side of the kingdom, whereas the kingdom of the heavens is the elevated side, which is important too; we cannot say that the elevated side is not moral, but the point is not that, but that it is elevation.
A.N.W. I thought perhaps Romans would help there, in that the kingdom of God is in relation to the Spirit, whereas the kingdom of the heavens is in relation to the King in heaven.
J.T. That is true, too. I am sure that is good.
L.W. And later on in chapter 6:33 of this same book the Lord says, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness", which stands in relation to what is moral too.
J.T. The distinction between what is moral and what is elevated is perfectly clear to me; that the moral side is, as it were, the level of things here below, whereas the elevated side is what is upward, what is uplifted. The word 'heaven' has the significance of what is uplifted, it suggests lifted-up things; the kingdom of the heavens has that character, whereas the kingdom of God is on the level of the earth here, and it has therefore the moral idea.
J.H.P. I was thinking of this expression, the kingdom of the heavens, as touching on two of the
matters that you alluded to this morning; the thought of the king, David the king, and then the heavenly side that you spoke of at the end, both these matters entering into this expression.
J.T. That is what we come to, "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".
G.H. The thought of the kingdom of the heavens would I suppose be in keeping with the thought of the mountains mentioned in this gospel, the elevated thought?
J.T. That is the idea running right through the book, the idea of mountains; the last one is at Galilee where the disciples are to meet the Lord.
A.R. Why does the Lord bring in the idea of the heavenly Father so much in these few chapters in Matthew?
J.T. "Our Father which art in heaven", it says, "Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread" (Matthew 6:9 - 11). All that is just the elevated side; it is drawn away from the level of the earth where man is, where man's responsibility especially is.
J.H.T. Would you say a little more on verse 9, about the peace-makers being called sons of God? Is it a gift, being a peace-maker?
J.T. It shows how nearly we come to the idea of sonship. We read in the epistle to the Hebrews of the Father bringing many sons to glory, and we can see the nearness to it here, the proximity to it in the makers of peace; they are very near to glory, they are making for glory, "Blessed the peace-makers".
R.W.S. Do these principles buttress the assembly? And if we are in the assembly in a weak way, would it be because we do not go through these chapters?
J.T. That is right. The book is consecutive, I would say; it is a consecutive instruction, and you cannot transpose the chapters. Chapter 5 is the
legislative chapter where we learn things from the Lord on high, from His own mouth on high. We are being made ready for the assembly in this fifth chapter.
E.A.L. It says in verse 17 of chapter 4, "From that time began Jesus to preach and to say, Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn nigh". Repentance there is the prerequisite for taking on these blessings, is it not? It is progressive in that sense.
J.T. Just so, leading up to chapter 5; that is to say, the fact that chapter 4 precedes the fifth means that it must have some bearing on the fifth.
V.C.L. Is this at all akin to the truth brought out in Romans? The book of Romans ends with the suggestion of the mystery; and here in chapter 5 there are suggestions of the wonderful truth of the whole assembly just hidden away, as it were, in what the Lord says. Is it therefore a question of educating personnel?
J.T. Very good; Romans touches on the mystery at the end but the touching on it does not make the mystery. You have to go to Ephesians for the mystery, we have to put things in their place. If we want to get the mystery, as the Lord Jesus has it in mind, which He has given over to Paul and which is just touched in Romans, we have to go to Ephesians for it; that is where we get it. The Bible is one whole, it is the great teaching book, and we have to learn from it and know where to place things.
W.W.M. Do you think that the Lord in pronouncing these blessings, suggests that they are blessings as they become true in us? "Blessed are they ..."; it is supposed to have the subjective effect upon us.
J.T. Just so, and we are capable of it; the Lord indicates that. He went up on high and the disciples came to Him; they are worthy to be listeners; they
are worthy of the discourse that He is making; they have come up; it takes some energy to come up a mountain and learning needs energy. It costs you something.
Rem. It is like coming to these meetings.
J.T. Exactly, just like coming to these meetings, if we are not coming for holiday purposes.
C.H.H. Would John's teaching underlie this for a moral foundation? It says in John 3:5, "Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". That seems to be the foundation before we reach the kingdom of the heavens.
J.T. That is good. We had recently a very important line of thought as to John's ministry, and that is the abstract idea. It was said that it is the one thing the brethren need at the present time; that what we all need is to come to the idea of what is abstract. And John is the great teacher of it. You have to come to what is abstract to get the real truth of the heavenly side of things, because it makes for what is constitutionally heaven, and that we are fit for it.
R.P. Would you illustrate a little what you mean by coming to what is abstract?
J.T. We have to tax our understanding of words, not that I am going to ask you to make much of your dictionary, but we all need to come to the idea of what is abstract. We are not coming to the truth if we do not; we shall surely edge away from the truth unless we hold to the abstract.
L.L.P. Would you say that all these nine proposals look at us as in responsibility?
J.T. Quite so. Look what is being built up! The Lord is here taking on a great matter; it is a legislative matter, as we have been saying, and if we keep to that I think we shall get something. And when we say that it cost something for the disciples
to go up on to the mountain, it cost the Lord something too; not because He is the Lord, for we are dealing with divine Persons and They have great capabilities; but at the same time it cost the Lord something to bring out these things; let us not forget that!
F.N.W. Since you made that remark in New York about the abstract, I was further helped by something you said many years ago: it was that you always hold yourself in the light of God's thoughts as to you. These are my words, but it is in substance, I think, what you said. Because if you do so, when you fail you are exercised, and that exercise leads to soul progress. Is that right?
J.T. Quite so; and John helps on that line: he says, "We know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is", not as He was, but as He is (1 John 3:2). That is what I call abstract in the full sense of the word.
Ques. Would you tell us more about the first blessing, "Blessed are the poor in spirit"? What kind of person does that refer to? I wondered if it meant humble and lowly?
J.T. I would rather let it stand as it is, let the word have its own place, the word 'poor'.
J.W.B. Does it bear by contrast on the spirit of the present age when men are marked by standing for their rights? Is it the opposite of being self-assertive?
J.T. And pretending to be rich when they are not. The Lord says as to the Laodicean condition, "and knowest not that thou art ... the miserable, and poor" (Revelation 3:17). We need just to use the word given, and to learn the meaning of the word in its given setting. And here it is 'poor in spirit'; you can see it is entirely different from what is in the Lord's mind in speaking to Laodicea.
F.J.F. It says of Him in Isaiah 53 that there was no lordliness in Him.
J.T. Very good; we know that the Lord was not characterised by pretension or lordliness here in this world.
F.J.F. He was not marked by human pretension, He was poor in spirit.
J.T. The Lord was that; the Lord was fully that. So Psalm 41 says, "Blessed is he that understandeth the poor"; that is Christ. We have to learn the idea of poor in Christ in that sense.
A.R. I should like to ask more about the matter of abstract. A large part of the book of Ephesians bears on what is abstract, does it not? How would you work that out?
J.T. According to the meaning of the word.
A.R. It says that God has "raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6).
J.T. Quite so; but it is more particularly to be learned in John's epistles. They are the great epistles for abstract ideas. "We know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is". We have to learn that the thing is abstract because we are not that now; it is when we shall see Him as He is.
R.P. Is it your thought that we should dwell on what is abstract?
J.T. Quite so, and that Scripture is the place to learn the meaning of the word. The Scriptures are so full and so instructive that they do not leave us adrift, as it were. The Spirit of God is immediately at our hand to help us; He is near to us, "The Lord is near" (Philippians 4:5). And you will soon learn, if you wait on the Lord, that "The Lord is near".
Ques. Are you urging that our being "poor in spirit" begins with God according to new birth? John says in the epistle that "Whoever has been
begotten of God does not practise sin, because his seed abides in him, and he cannot sin" (1 John 3:9).
J.T. I should like everybody to get hold of that at this reading; that is the idea of abstract.
E.A.L. In Ephesians we see the assembly in an abstract way perfectly, do we not? I mean in the expression, "that he might present the assembly to himself glorious" (Ephesians 5:27).
J.T. Do you mean the idea of abstract is presented in Ephesians perfectly?
E.A.L. The assembly is always presented in that way, as being perfect.
J.T. No, not always; sometimes it is presented anticipatively; the epistle to the Ephesians is largely anticipative truth. We have to learn the truth and see if it is the truth. It is an anticipative idea there, Ephesians is largely that. It is a question of such a statement as that we are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenly places. That is anticipative truth, you see. One thing we have to learn this afternoon I believe, is the idea of anticipative truth; that is Ephesians.
R.W.S. So we come to a time when we can stand the school of Tyrannus. Paul reasoned in connection with the kingdom for three months and then he came to the school of Tyrannus. Can we not stand it now to be adjusted, any one of us? Because the time is urgent, we have not much time to go, and yet we have so much to learn.
F.J.F. Would you say that the abstract is what is abidingly true?
J.T. It is better to get the use of the word 'abstract', I mean as applied to ourselves. It would not refer to Christ at all; it would apply to the way things are worked out in us believers.
J.W.B. Does 'abstract' refer to what is in the mind of God for the saints and in a sense is true now?
J.T. In a sense it is true now, of course; you have it now, in a sense. Otherwise it would not be abstract; but it is abstract. That is to say, it is something that is seen in Christ actually but applied to us now because of certain conditions that God has brought about as in new birth. The new birth is a thing that works out what is abstract.
J.W.B. It will finally be seen actually in the saints, will it not?
J.T. Well, it is worked out in them.
F.H.L. John says to the young men, "Ye have overcome the wicked one" (1 John 2:14). Is that not in type like Christ?
J.T. That is right; "Ye have", it is done already; it is a thing done.
F.N.W. In connection with what we enter into in our spirits in the assembly service, would you say that 'anticipative' is a good word to use there rather than 'abstract'?
J.T. I think so, yes. We can regard it as true in a certain sense, because He has raised us up together and has made us to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. That is an anticipative thought, but it can only be so because of the presence of the Spirit here on earth; you could not speak of it otherwise in that way.
A.C.W. Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus was occupied with the Lord Himself, and in John 12 she could move intelligently spiritually, knowing what to do. Could we say that in regard to Mary she was occupied with perfection in the Lord Himself, she appreciated Him? Would John 12 prove that she had taken it on? She moved there in an intelligent way.
J.T. So that we can apply that to ourselves; we are abstracted by the presence of the Lord, sitting at His feet and hearing His word. It is predicated of you that you are abstracted there; but then it
will pass away if you are not careful, so that it is not fully abstract, it is not fully perfected. But here we have something that is said to be perfected; it says, "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect". I mean to say that is anticipative too, but it is actually true; the Lord is concentrating on that thought. "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".
J.H.P. Does not this chapter really lead up to that sentence that you have just read? There seems to be a kind of progressiveness. I was thinking of these thoughts -- "The salt of the earth", and "the light of the world", and then "a city situated on the top of a mountain", and then "a lamp"; they seem to lead up to this great result. Would that be right?
J.T. We might as well touch on that a little now. The passage from verse 43 reads: "Ye have heard that it has been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who insult you and persecute you, that ye may be the sons of your Father who is in the heavens; for he makes his sun rise on evil and good, and sends rain on just and unjust. For if ye should love those who love you, what reward have ye? Do not also the tax-gatherers the same? And if ye should salute your brethren only, what do ye extraordinary? Do not also the Gentiles the same? Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".
I think we might well rest on that now and see how the result that we are dealing with is to work out in us. And I would just add that we have to take account of the Lord's saying things and how He says them in Spirit. He has a spiritual way of saying them. For instance, He says that if a person says, 'Come with me a mile', you are to go with him two. But the man might not want you to go with
him two. But you see we have to learn how language is used, how language can be used to enforce the truth. It is a very rare thing to get such usage as that. "And whoever will compel thee to go one mile, go with him two".
Now we must say the Lord has a right to speak in that way, because anyone can see that the man might not want to go at all. And we cannot be sure that the man who asked him wanted him to go two miles; he only asked him to go one mile. But the Lord has that way of speaking and you can see the force of it. It is just to bring out the use of language in Scripture so that we can use it rightly.
R.P. Would you say that Stephen at the end of his life would be an example of one who is perfect even as his Father in heaven is perfect? At the end you might say that he takes account of what is abstract, "Jesus standing at the right hand of God" (Acts 7:55). I was wondering if you would get there the idea of what is abstract?
J.T. "He saw ... Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, Lo, I behold ... the Son of man standing at the right hand of God". The heavens were opened to him. You have all these things to take into account, that the heavens are opened at this particular time to a man here on earth. He was going to heaven himself; but he was going to be martyred.
R.W.S. Would you help us with that word 'perfect'? "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect". What does it mean, please?
J.T. Well, there must be some meaning to it, surely, that what applies to God applies to us. And how can it apply to us? We have to see how it can, and what language we can use and use rightly to say these things ourselves.
Ques. Is love connected with it? This passage you read begins with love, "Love your enemies".
A.N.W. And impartiality? It looks as though impartiality would have something to do with it, to act the same toward an evil person as toward a good. And it rains on the just and the unjust.
J.T. That is a striking truth; it is very important to have just the same rain coming on them that we have on us, showing that God is saying, 'I am acting in mercy toward My creature still, and that is the way I am doing it; and you should learn how to do it, and be perfect in doing it'.
Rem. James tells us what a perfect man is, "If any one offend not in word" (James 3:2).
J.T. "He is a perfect man", quite so, "able to bridle the whole body too".
C.H.H. 1 Corinthians 14:20 speaks about "grown men". Does not that have a connection with 'perfect'?
J.T. And so in Hebrews 5:14, it says that "solid food belongs to full-grown men".
C.H.H. And in Philippians 3:15 too, "As many therefore as are perfect", and then the note to that says, 'or full-grown', and refers you to Corinthians where they are to be babes as to malice, but in minds to be full-grown men.
J.T. That is the idea; that is very good.
J.H.P. I was wondering if this word 'perfect' at the end of Matthew 5 would not bring in all these inward thoughts that we have been dwelling on this afternoon all through the chapter; the thought of inwardness you mentioned at the beginning as leading up to this end here?
J.T. So the following chapters, the sixth and seventh, deal with the whole matter, and that leads up to something else that we still have before us in chapter 10. God willing, the first reading tomorrow will be chapter 10, and will bring up what apostleship
is in the disciples, so that a list of their names is given in that chapter.
F.J.F. Will all these things be seen in perfection in the heavenly city?
J.T. How could we have the heavenly city without them? It is a heavenly thing; we must hold to that. For instance, Peter says, "According to his promise, we wait for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13). We must have that, and we must have the idea of what is abstract to get to that; we must have it. It is a great missing thought if we do not have the idea of what is abstract in getting to that.
B.W. Is what is abstract now anticipative for us too? Could we use both words?
J.T. Just so. It is a question of the use of language. As I was saying, the Lord uses language and we are entitled to use it, too, as He uses it. I think it would help us all to realise that we have a perfect Model in the Lord in the way He did things. The beatitudes as they are called -- although I do not care for the word -- mean just that. "The heaven and the earth shall pass away", the Lord says, "but my words shall in no wise pass away" (Luke 21:33).
C.H.H. So this would have no application to the world to come, would it? It is what is actual now. The injunctions in this chapter and chapters 6 and 7 will have no force at all in the millennium. Is it not what is practicable now? There will be no persecution and that kind of thing in the millennium.
J.T. Just so, but then there are other things besides persecution in the chapter. The chapter teaches perfection in what we are talking about. "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".
W.W.M. Do you think the desire of the Lord in His teaching here is to set before them that He wants
them to act like God in this world? Is that the point?
J.T. It is; and the Lord is leading up to perfection, of course; He says that. And we must remember He is leading up to the assembly; He has that in His mind in all that He is saying, to speak about the assembly, because Matthew is the great assembly gospel.
E.A.L. I wanted to ask about Ephesians 5:27, "that he might present the assembly to himself glorious, having no spot, or wrinkle, or any of such things; but that it might be holy and blameless". That is perfection, is it not?
J.T. Well, it is an end in view in the Lord's mind. But we have not reached that end yet in Ephesians.
Matthew 9:27 - 31, 10:1 - 15, 41,42
J.T. It is mainly in mind, in proposing these verses, to deal with apostleship as it is seen in Matthew; but the verses in chapter 9 are especially suggested because they bear on the idea of faith. It says in verse 27, "And as Jesus passed on thence, two blind men followed him, crying and saying, Have mercy on us, Son of David. And when he was come to the house, the blind men came to him. And Jesus says to them, Do ye believe ... ?" This is what I wanted to bring to the attention of the brethren: "Do ye believe that I am able to do this? They say to him, Yea, Lord". That is the reason why the verses were read in chapter 9, as bearing on chapter 10. And then we should notice in chapter 10:41,42, the reference to relative values, that is to say what a prophet is, what a righteous man is, and so on. I am saying all this so that the brethren will understand what is in mind.
J.H.P. Why does faith come in at that point in chapter 9?
J.T. I think in view of apostleship, that is, the dispensation is to be in faith; as Paul says, "God's dispensation, which is in faith" (1 Timothy 1:4). Things are to be in faith, they are not simply to be acquired in colleges and the like, but it is a question of faith. Of course there must be ability divinely given, but still it is a question of faith, because a person may be very able as to natural ability and yet have no faith and therefore deny the truth of the dispensation.
Ques. Is that what marked Matthew when he left his tax office to follow the Lord?
J.T. Just so. He was a tax-gatherer, meaning that he was a man who knew how to make money.
So that apostleship in christianity is not a money-making matter or anything of the kind; it is a question of men being diverted from all that and being in faith. That is what Matthew is dealing with.
C.F.E. Is the gospel received by the individual in faith?
J.T. Well, quite so; but it is a question of what is meant by the passage, "Faith then is by a report, but the report by God's word" (Romans 10:17). It is a question of the ears; we had it yesterday, and we want to open that up a little bit as to its bearing on the present dispensation; that it is not a question of colleges and all that on which so-called christianity is built up; it is a question of what is in faith.
A.J.E.W. One of the outstanding features connected with Timothy as Paul speaks of him was unfeigned faith that had been in his mother and his grandmother also. Does that fit in?
J.T. Just so, showing that it was a household matter and it had come down to him. It is a question of how children are to be brought up in view of the testimony, that the mother and the grandmother, as it were, would take them as children and inculcate the truth of the gospel into their hearts and thus bring them up in the truth; that is the point. There are a lot of young here today, very young ones, some of them, and the point is to get them into faith, to get all of us into faith; it is the dispensation of faith as we have already remarked.
J.H.P. I was thinking what a testing word this is, "According to your faith, be it unto you".
J.T. That is why I thought of reading this section in chapter 9; it has such a great place in the testimony of the gospel, this very chapter.
J.H.P. Would that come down to families and localities?
J.T. I think so, because christianity is intended to be built up on faith, but it was to be in relation
to households; the word in Acts 16:31, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house".
C.H.H. Does the word in 1 Timothy 1:4 bear on it? "Nor to turn their minds to fables and interminable genealogies, which bring questionings rather than further God's dispensation, which is in faith".
J.T. "Which is in faith"; just so, that is where chapter 9 bears on chapter 10.
A.B.P. Would that link on with the word in Hebrews 11:6, "But without faith it is impossible to please him. For he that draws near to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them who seek him out"?
L.L.P. Would you say that Hebrews 11 is especially set for the building up of the assembly, as having in it the thought of faith perhaps more than any other chapter?
J.T. That is, the idea of the chapter is faith; it is running right through. It begins faith's exercises in verse 3: "By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God".
A.R. Is there something important in the fact that there are two blind men in Matthew instead of one? I was wondering if it really has in mind the assembly, of which it says, "If two of you shall agree" (Matthew 18:19).
J.T. Just so, that is one great idea that comes into the truth, two instead of one.
F.H.L. And it is in connection with getting light, is it not, the same as with the two in chapter 20? It is a question of getting their eyes opened. "And lo, two blind men, sitting by the wayside, having heard that Jesus was passing by, cried out saying, Have mercy on us, Lord, Son of David" (verse 30). The Lord does not challenge them as to their faith there, perhaps because they call Him "Lord", but
I was thinking in both cases of the two who were blind and needed the light.
J.T. Here the thought that is stressed is faith in the two. It is said, "As Jesus passed on thence, two blind men followed him". But they were too talkative, as we see when we come on down to the end of the paragraph; it says in verse 31, "But they, when they were gone out, spread his name abroad in all that land". But the Lord had charged them, "See, let no man know it". That is, it is not a question of publicity, making a show of the thing, but of the secret power of faith; it is a question of faith, that we believe in what the Lord states, that He is able to do it.
J.H.P. Is there a suggestion there that the mystery and hiding would be connected with this great matter of faith? I was thinking that the Lord charged them sharply, "See, let no man know it"; and although that applied to this particular incident, yet I was wondering whether the whole thought of the mystery and what is hidden as developed by Paul would not be connected closely with this matter of faith?
J.T. Very good, I would say that fully, it is Paul's way of teaching; because he is really the leading man in christianity, whatever we may say as to the others. He is the man to whom the mystery is committed and that is the truth; things were committed to Paul.
A.B.P. Are we to regard faith as God's sovereign gift? Would there be some condition in the believer which vindicates God in giving faith?
F.J.F. Is faith to be always present in our gatherings?
J.T. That is the idea, that is why we are here today. Christianity involves faith; if it is not in faith it is nothing, it is just a matter of what is in the seminaries and the like. But christianity is in
faith. As we said before, it is "God's dispensation, which is in faith". There is absolutely nothing else if there is not that.
C.H.H. Would you say that faith is preceded by repentance -- "repentance towards God, and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21)? I was wondering whether the preaching of the word as to the goodness of God would first of all lead men to repentance, and then God gives His gift of faith?
J.T. It is the goodness of God, and that is what we are aiming at; we do not want to leave this point of faith in chapter 9. We are dealing with these two men and they were too talkative; they had too much to say instead of abiding by what the Lord had said, that they were not to say anything. "Jesus charged them sharply, saying, See, let no man know it". That is to say the thing is to be held in a secret way, not making a special show of it. The many churches would speak of all that sort of thing, which entirely sets aside the idea of christianity.
J.F. Is that an unwarranted exposure of a treasure that the Lord had given to these men, of something that was secret with the Lord?
J.T. Quite so; it ought to have been a secret matter that was held in power; it is a question of christianity in power.
Ques. Is that what Paul had in mind in Colossians 3:3,4? "For ye have died, and your life is hid with the Christ in God. When the Christ is manifested who is our life, then shall ye also be manifested with him in glory". We have to wait till then for the manifestation. Is that right?
J.T. "When the Christ is manifested". What is your point in that, please?
Rem. My point was that the Lord had enjoined these men to say nothing; and I thought Paul's point in Colossians was the same, that some were
making a vain show of things whereas the word is, "For ye have died, and your life is hid".
J.T. It is the word 'hid'. The word 'hid' is a leading word in Colossians: "your life is hid with the Christ in God". It is the very opposite to the show that is often made in connection with the truth.
A.N.W. You mentioned the matter of testimony in connection with this. Is the testimony in what the men are rather than in what they say?
J.T. There is testimony because the thing happened; the thing happened to them. The Lord put it to them on those lines, that they must believe that it is to happen. He says to them, "Do ye believe that I am able to do this? They say to him, Yea, Lord". Then He touched their eyes. That is the ground on which the thing is; they believed in the power, although they had too much to say afterwards. But they believed in the power, and the evidence was that their eyes were opened. The thing was done.
W.W.M. Yesterday you were referring to Romans 10:17 where it says that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". It says of Cornelius and those that were with him in the house that "the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were hearing the word" (Acts 10:44). Peter in referring to it in Acts 15 says, "And the heart-knowing God bore them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit as to us also ... having purified their hearts by faith". So that faith coming by hearing would prove that they had some faith there in Cornelius' house, had they not?
J.T. Evidently; so that it is a question of power; that is the thing. The Lord's becoming a Man was to bring out the power that was in Him, that He was able to do things. And that is the general principle, that a man is able to do things; it is not what a man says; it is what he is able to do. That is what
Matthew would bring out, and indeed we have the same feature in all the gospels.
Ques. In chapter 9:2, it says, "And Jesus, seeing their faith ..." Does that work out today in our dispensation, that others can be blessed through the faith of those that have it?
J.T. Just so, He saw their faith; it is the same in Mark, that He acted when He saw their faith.
Ques. How is it possible today for somebody to be blessed through the faith that may be, for instance, in me?
J.T. Surely it may be; many a child has been blessed through the faith of his father. We should bring up our children in faith. We bring them up in the knowledge of the word of God, but it is in view of each having faith himself. We bring up our children in view of their having faith, of their taking on things vitally. With Timotheus it was a question of the faith of his mother and grandmother. They brought him up on the word, that is, in the light of the Scriptures. Then there was development in Timotheus, that was the great fruit of it.
Ques. So we can rely on that today?
J.T. Certainly; therefore we bring up our children in faith. It is of immense moment that we should bring our children to the meetings; the small and great, bring them to the meetings. Let them hear what is said and they will gradually come into the idea of faith.
Ques. Can we extend the idea, for instance, to the union matter? The brethren have faith that God will come in. One brother who is in the union may not have that faith; but do you not think it could be extended in that way?
J.T. Very good. We have such as those in New York and it is the very thing that is exercising us. One brother gave up as soon as he was told he could
not be employed any longer on the former basis; he just said nothing, whereas he should have gone to the department head and the persons who were employing him, and laid the matter of the truth before them. Because God will use all that if we are faithful. The matter should be laid before the persons who are responsible; not before the union; that is not responsible; it is the employer that is responsible. And God will take account of that. So we bring our children up on those lines. They go to school and they watch and listen. Their parents tell them, 'Do not listen to what they are talking about in the school that is contrary to Scripture. You listen to the truth!' And their parents give them the truth at home, where they live, where they are brought up. That is the real position in the household, because christianity is in relation to the household.
B.W. Would the scripture in John's epistle fit in, where it says, "For all that has been begotten of God gets the victory over the world; and this is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith" (1 John 5:4)?
J.T. "Our faith", just so; "this is the victory which has gotten the victory ... our faith". Victory lies in the faith that we have, it is "our faith", mark you; not simply 'faith', but "our faith", that is, believers' faith. As I was saying, it is what is seen in the households of the saints; Acts 16 therefore is one of the leading chapters in that book. Lydia is there and it is a question of all that entered into the moment -- how the truth worked out in Europe, as I might say. It was a question of what was in Europe.
A.B.P. Would there be a practical working out of that in the word the jailor received, "Thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house"? That would be light from God upon which he would act in faith.
J.T. It was himself first, "thou and thy house"; "thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house". The 'thou' is the leading word there; it is the individual himself and then his family.
A.B.P. It may be possible for some years to intervene before the house is actually brought in under that statement, but faith would hold to it tenaciously.
J.T. That is right. And then it says, "He laid the table for them", the table came into it; that is to say it is a household matter where there is bounty, where there is liberality, where there is hospitality; "he laid the table for them".
A.N.W. And the whole household rejoiced; it is an adverb there meaning they rejoiced householdly.
L.L.P. Would you say that if this question of faith is genuine, it reaches out to the house itself? Lydia devoted her house to the service of Paul.
J.T. Just so; she says, "If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house", and they did it. And later when they were leaving Philippi they came to Lydia again. It says that Paul came to Lydia, to her; not to her house but to her.
D.Macd. It says in Hebrews 11 that "Moses ... was hid three months by his parents" -- 'hid'. Are we to hide our children? I was just thinking that perhaps we may bring our children up too much for this world instead of hiding them.
J.T. Quite so. There are too many professional men, doctors and others, among us. Pardon me for referring to them, but in training the children never mind the profession, never mind the distinction, never mind the title; just train them to be able to rightly earn their living and to be christians, to be real christians.
D.Macd. In connection with that, it says of Peter and John that they were unlettered and uninstructed men.
J.T. That is good, unlettered and uninstructed; but they were doing the work nevertheless, the power was there.
F.J.F. In connection with what you were speaking of yesterday, anticipation, the power to anticipate, is that not always on the ground of faith, that through faith we can anticipate what is really future? By the Spirit's power, of course.
J.T. Well, quite; of course, faith is cumulative, leading on to great results; really we are coming on to the millennium. But in the meantime we are in the assembly time, and it is a matter of finding out what is current and who belongs to the assembly, and to get the features of the assembly; that is the thing that enters into Matthew, because Matthew is the great assembly gospel.
C.H.H. Is there any distinction between "the faith" and what may be individual? I was thinking of Jude 1:3, "contend earnestly for the faith", and then again there were those who denied "the faith".
J.T. That is so; and then there is "our faith" as well.
F.H.L. The word to Timothy is "holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience" (1 Timothy 3:9). That would be a much broader thought, would it?
J.T. Just so; that is an added thought.
T.N.W. The last clause of Romans 14 is, "whatever is not of faith is sin". Is that not a very broad statement?
J.T. A very broad statement, showing that we are shut up to faith in everything; it is "God's dispensation, which is in faith" (1 Timothy 1:4). We are shut up to that. It is an immense thing to have before us all the time, and for our children especially, because they have to go to school and into all that sort of thing; it is an immense thing to save them from the influence of infidelity in the schools. They carry
faith into the schools and know how to behave themselves as having faith and belonging to households who are "in faith", because the households are involved in that.
L.L.P. Scripture says that faith is the gift of God; but what you have mainly before you now is that we are responsible, man is responsible, the onus is on men as to having faith?
A.N.W. When the Lord puts it this way, "According to your faith", He would certainly seem to stimulate faith.
J.T. The onus is on the person who is getting the benefit, and the Lord is the One through whom the benefit has come.
A.B.P. You have been referring to the young people, and I feel it is a very important subject. Should not our young people, as having some aim in life before them, be concerned that they have a word from God about it, so that what they propose can be either taken on or turned aside in faith, whichever is His mind? I feel that we sometimes make the thought of faith a very general idea, but does it not enter into the detail of our lives with a distinct word from God?
J.T. A distinct word from God; I am just wondering about the full bearing of that as you are dealing with it.
A.B.P. Well, Abram said, "How shall I know?" after God had spoken to him; and then God put him through the experience in Genesis 15, which seems to suggest the inward character of the word of God in us; that it is not merely -- and I say that guardedly -- not merely a generalised idea of faith, but there is some word to which we can pin our faith which has a direct bearing upon us individually.
J.T. Abram said to Jehovah, "How shall I know ... ?" and then God prescribed to him what
he was to do, the different creatures that he was to provide, and that I think is a thing not to be omitted. If you will enlarge on that perhaps you will help us. He prescribes to Abram what he is to do. He said, "How shall I know ... ?", and God says, I will tell you, and He tells him certain things to do, that he is to provide certain creatures in a certain sacrificial sense, and he did it. Genesis 15 is a very significant chapter, and it bears on all that we are talking about.
A.B.P. There were female and male animals and it seems to me that the idea of what is subjectively wrought out in us has prominence there; and the fact that the lamp passed between those pieces seems to suggest the inward character of the word in our souls. I wondered if it did not link with Hebrews 4 where we are told that the word of God divides between the thoughts and the intents of the heart, and between soul and spirit, and between joints and marrow? It is not just a generalising of detail but things that have a direct bearing upon us. God's word is said to be a light to our path, but then it is also a lamp to our feet, as though we can have a word for each step. Would that be right?
Ques. Faith is in a Person, is it not? Is not our faith in a Person, in God?
J.T. It is in a Person, but faith is to be held by itself too. It is sometimes said to be "our faith", and then "faith", and then "the faith". So it depends upon what you are dealing with and what word you use.
L.W. Paul used the expression, "the ... spirit of faith", in 2 Corinthians 4:13.
J.T. Just so, a very good expression too.
C.H.H. As to these two men in Matthew 9 declaring the matter after they had been told to keep
it quiet, would the proper course have been according to James to show forth their faith by their works?
J.T. Just so, that they were believers, because that was the point. "Do ye believe that I am able?" the Lord had said. They were to show that they were believers in the Lord's ability; that was the idea; that is the foundation of christianity.
C.H.H. Is not that the course for us as we have the revelation of God in Christ, that we are to walk in it? As John says, "walking in the truth" (3 John 1:4), that the testimony is to be in that rather than in what we say.
Rem. In chapter 8 the Lord challenges the disciples: He says, "Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith?" in connection with the storm. It says, "Behold, the water became very agitated on the sea, so that the ship was covered by the waves; but he slept. And the disciples came and awoke him, saying, Lord save: we perish. And he says to them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith?"
J.T. So that it is a question of having faith, even if it is only a little; it would be effective for salvation. But we have the idea of great faith too: the Lord says, "Not even in Israel have I found so great faith" (Matthew 8:10). There is the idea of great faith and little faith, but whether it be the one or the other, the element is there; it is the real gold in the element, that is, faith.
C.H.H. You were suggesting that Matthew is leading up progressively. Is what you are saying now leading on to the appointment of these twelve, giving them power?
J.T. Just so; the time has come for that now in chapter 10. But chapter 9 is so important as to faith; that is why we stayed there. But we can now readily go on in simplicity and liberty to the idea of the apostles' service, of the appointment of the apostles by the Lord Himself in Matthew 10.
C.H.H. I was thinking of the great necessity for the moral background that is seen in Matthew if we are to be commissioned for service.
J.T. To be commissioned. Which of any one of us has a commission at all? And if we have, where is the evidence of it? That is what I would say in addition to what you have said, that if any one of us has been commissioned there must be some evidence of it, some fruit from it. And where is it? We have already alluded to the number amongst us who are old; you are amongst them and I am, and several others amongst us. Well, where is the fruit of it? I am not saying that I have not got any or that you have not; nor am I saying that it is not in evidence around us; it is in evidence right in this room. But it is a question of making it individual and practical so that it can be spoken of as real christianity.
Ques. It says in Romans 12:6 that "having different gifts, according to the grace which has been given to us, whether it be prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith". I was wondering if there is not a link in that way between chapters 9 and 10 of Matthew, that these men were to go out and minister according to the proportion of faith?
J.T. That is so. And then finally we come to Paul. We have to wait for him before we see the full fruit of the characteristic labour of all the apostles, the characteristic labour.
C.F.E. Is it not remarkable that the Lord brings their faith down to a grain of mustard seed?
J.T. Very good, a grain of mustard seed; only a grain, a small item, but it is faith nevertheless; the real gold is there, that is the point.
R.W.S. Is unbelief a mountain which is removed by a grain of faith like a grain of mustard seed? Following the remark as to faith as a grain of mustard seed, the unit of measurement of unbelief seems to
be mountains, and of faith grains; but the grain of faith removes the mountain of unbelief.
J.T. Yes, very wonderful I think. It comes home to one's soul at this very minute, the thing that we are talking about. How real christianity is! We are in the centre of this great country here in Washington, but how real christianity is over against all this, the few that have real christianity! And that is the testimony of God in these moments, these last days.
C.H.H. Is the order important as to the measures of faith? For instance it says, "first ... Peter"; that has to be recognised as to those who are first.
J.T. Now we shall have to come on to the end of chapter 10 to see the real values that are in mind in all this that we are talking about. We shall just again read verses 40 and 41: "He that receives you receives me, and he that receives me receives him that sent me. He that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man, shall receive a righteous man's reward. And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only, in the name of a disciple", notice this, "verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward". Now that is what we are going to close with in this reading; only we shall have to go back again to the names of the apostles before we come to these two verses. Now what about this matter of results, with those of us who are older here?
C.H.H. Well, some of us have to be very humble about it.
J.T. Quite so, but there is something here, you know; let not the brethren think there is nothing, because there is something here in the way of results, and from the elder brethren too. And it is for each of us just to look into these matters and be real
about things, because we are dealing with real christianity. We are dealing with Matthew and with the gospel and with the assembly; but we are dealing with christianity, that is what I am endeavouring to press.
L.W. In naming the disciples and calling them apostles, is the Lord looking forward to setting up the assembly, the foundations of the assembly? That is with all except Judas.
J.T. Let us look at it: "Now the names of the twelve apostles are these": This is very formal. We should read it again, from the first verse.
"And having called to him his twelve disciples, he gave them power over unclean spirits, so that they should cast them out, and heal every disease and every bodily weakness. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the tax-gatherer; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, who was surnamed Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananaean, and Judas the Iscariote, who also delivered him up".
Now there they are, before the universe as we might say, these twelve men, and what results there are! So that is our subject just for the moment and then we shall go on to the idea of relative values in the prophet and the righteous man before we finish.
F.H.L. Yesterday you were referring in chapter 5 to their coming to Him, and you were looking ahead to His calling them to Him here. It is a change of position in that way, is it not? He "called to him his twelve disciples".
J.T. And then "he gave them power over unclean spirits, so that they should cast them out, and heal every disease and every bodily weakness". Now, I would say that that verse is to be noted, because there is a great deal of sickness amongst the
brethren, a great deal of sickness. And we thank God, so far as we are concerned in New York, that a great many healings have happened. But some are not quite healed yet, and therefore the question now is whether we can take up the word in James as to the healing of the sick, whether they can be healed. The prayer of faith, we are told, heals the sick; it heals.
R.W.S. In James 5:15 it says, "The prayer of faith shall heal the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up".
J.T. I thought that was a very important matter in these readings, not to forget the idea of the healing of the sick by the prayer of faith; not simply by the persons but by their faith, the prayer of faith.
Ques. It says in James that the sick man is to call the elders, who will pray over him and anoint him with oil. How would that work out today?
J.T. Well, first of all, where are your elders? That was a question that used to be asked years ago by Mr. Stoney. Where are your elders? But it did not imply that there were none, it did not imply that. It is just a challenge as to whether there are any elders amongst us, whether it be in Washington or New York or London. Where are the elders? Then the next thing is, if they are here there must be some power with them.
F.J.F. It says "the elders of the assembly", not of the synagogue. James had been speaking a good deal of the synagogue. Now he says, "Let him call to him the elders of the assembly". I suppose they would have the power.
J.T. There used to be a dear brother in this country, Mr. Joseph Pellatt, and he was speaking of recovery through medicine. He quoted several things that were used for healing people, but he said, 'As far as I am concerned I prefer the old paths and I am a believer in James 5' That is to say, it is a
question of where the Holy Spirit is operating in the sense of healing. The dear brethren need healing spiritually and physically and the point is that James 5 is intended to give us that; it is the vehicle of faith for the healing of the sick.
A.N.W. That would search us. Later the disciples had to come to the Lord and say as to an unclean spirit, "Why were not we able to cast him out? And he says to them, Because of your unbelief" (Matthew 17:19,20). A very searching matter!
C.H.H. You would recognise in healing in addition to James 5 the mercies of God in the way of creatures? For instance, you get Hezekiah who had to apply a plaster of figs; and Timothy was to take a little wine. I mean it would be in addition to faith.
J.T. Well, enlarge on that; the real thing is the enlargement that we are able to give to a matter, spreading it out for us; so that we have "opening" and "laying down"; we are to open up a thing from the Scriptures and then lay it down authoritatively. That is what you get in the book of Acts.
C.H.H. I was only thinking of what we speak of as the creatures of God about which we can freely address God, and count them as God's mercies; and also that we have doctors to help us.
W.W.M. Would you say that in regard of the sick, there is much in John's writing to Gaius where he says, "I desire that ... thou shouldest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospers" (3 John 1:2)? So that soul prosperity is a great thing in regard of our health. Do you think that?
J.T. It is indeed. There is so much illness, and so much hindrance because of illness, physical illness, that God is speaking to us. But as I was saying a moment ago, as far as New York is concerned we are greatly encouraged in the number of healings.
L.W. You have not expressed all you have in mind about the twelve apostles.
J.T. Not yet. We hope to say a little more. There are twelve of them and we do not need to say very much about the last one; he was a terrible man.
G.G.B. Might I just enquire a word more about the healing? In James the one who was sick called the elders to him. Now the healing that you speak of in New York -- does that always apply in that way?
J.T. Pretty much, I am thankful to say. We have had remarkable cases of it and we are very much encouraged about that.
G.G.B. Can anyone be healed unless he himself calls the elders?
J.T. "Let him call to him the elders". It taxes you as to whether you know the brethren, the elders "Let him call to him the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him ... and the prayer of faith shall heal the sick". That is a promise.
G.G.B. I mean there must be movement on the part of the one who is sick?
J.T. I think so, that is the idea of it, because that is what it says: "Is any sick among you? let him call to him the elders of the assembly", as much as to say James recognised that there are still elders of the assembly.
T.N.W. Do you think that it entails transparency? Because it leads on to the confession of sins and the forgiveness of them.
J.T. Quite so, "and if he be one who has committed sins, it shall be forgiven him". It is a time for forgiveness as well as healing, because God is ready to forgive us. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).
J.H.T. Does the anointing with oil have to be taken literally or does it just suggest the Spirit?
J.T. I think we must take it literally; I would be ashamed to say it was not literal. I would be ashamed to say in the face of christianity that it was not literal. It must be literal. Even if it is not seen now in any specific way, yet it really exists literally.
L.L.P. Would you say that if one had faith and was fallen sick and there chanced to be a brother in the locality who was a medical man, faith would make me send for him in the capacity of an elder rather than of a doctor?
J.T. If he is a beloved one, such as Luke the beloved physician, I would be glad to travel with him and to count on him, to ask him to do things. Luke was not simply a good physician but a beloved one.
L.L.P. Some of us had that experience recently. A brother was sick and sent for a brother in the capacity of a medical doctor; and afterwards it came to him that he should have sent for him as an elder.
J.T. Well, maybe there is truth in that.
A.N.W. Luke was evidently at Troas but the recoverer of Eutychus was Paul.
J.T. Just so, the recoverer of Eutychus was Paul.
L.L.P. One is wholeheartedly sympathetic with what you are presenting; I think we ought to draw on it.
W.W.M. In connection with your speaking to the young people here this morning, I have been thinking of a scripture in Hebrews 13:7, "Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God; and considering the issue of their conversation, imitate their faith". That is to be carried out today, is it not?
J.T. "Imitate their faith", very good.
Matthew 16:13 - 28
J.T. We have now come to the thought we had before us in taking up the gospel of Matthew, that is, the matter of the assembly. Many questions will arise in our minds as to the place that Peter has in this gospel, and the place he has in relation to the assembly, because it is unique in both. So that in verse 13 the Lord raises the whole question with His disciples as to His Person. We notice also the position -- Caesarea-Philippi; the very names indicate the gentile links, and yet the links are decidedly Jewish nevertheless. If the Lord would bring out the matter of the assembly, the Father has to say to it; the Lord would bring that out and also the additional thought of "I also", and then the Lord would bring out too the place that Peter has, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens. And I also", the additional thought of "I also", "I say unto thee that thou art Peter". That is to say the Lord would bring out what Peter was; not who he was but what he was; he was "Peter", not simply a name but a condition, meaning stone, a stone of the building. This is, as I remarked, really the crux of the whole matter that is now before us, the matter of the assembly and who builds it, and what Peter is -- a stone, the material of which it is formed. It is not who he is, as I said, but what he is -- he is a stone.
W.W.M. Does stone represent what is spiritual?
J.T. It is to bring out what Peter was.
A.N.W. In chapter 10, as called with the twelve, he is put first; his name is given as "Simon, who was called Peter", but here he is it; is that right?"Thou art Peter".
J.T. Just so, "Thou art Peter", it is what he was, not who he was.
R.P. Would the Lord in addressing him as Simon Bar-jona speak of what he was in responsibility?
J.T. Just so, son of Jonas; he is a son of Jonas, that is who he is; but what he is is the point, what he is under the name Peter.
A.C.W. Is he looked at in a potential way here?
J.T. That is right, that is a good word -- potential.
F.J.F. Does stone indicate that what he was is abiding?
J.T. Quite so, permanent, the idea of permanency.
F.J.F. The Lord Himself is said to be "The stone which the builders rejected" (Psalm 118:22).
J.T. Just so, the builders rejected it, but He is made the Head of the corner.
F.J.F. Does that mean that Peter was characteristically of the rock, the same material?
J.T. Characteristically of the same material, only it is the difference between rock and stone. 'Rock' is a bigger idea, it is the idea of permanency in largeness.
E.A.L. Stone involves divine workmanship, does it not, as against brick which is made by man? Stone is created.
J.T. You say the stone is divine workmanship, quite so. Brick is a man-made thing, it is processed and burnt. Bricks are good enough for some building but they are in no way equal to stone.
B.F. Would you say that before the Lord disclosed to Peter what he was, He asked him of his knowledge concerning Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ? "Who do ye say that I am?"
J.T. Well, yes, but the Lord did not say, 'Peter, who dost thou say', but "Who do ye say". It was a question to all of them, and Peter could answer it,
for he was characteristically the thing himself, the very thing himself.
B.F. Does it indicate that we must have a knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ to get revelations from Him?
J.H.P. Does the 'ye' in that way involve the earlier parts of the gospel that we have been reading, particularly chapter 5, and then chapters 9 and 10 that we have been reading today?
J.T. Very good, because apostleship links on with it.
A.B.P. Do we have a parallel in Acts 13:9 where it says, "Saul, who also is Paul"? Do we have Paul coming into prominence as to what he is in that chapter?
J.T. "Who also is"; it speaks of what the man is, he is Paul, a little one, the meaning is that he is little. He is not a great pretentious man like an archbishop or that sort of thing; all that is excluded from these thoughts that we are dealing with.
A.B.P. "Filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 13:9).
J.H.P. I was thinking too of what you were saying this morning about comparative values. Would that enter into it, the Lord's evaluation here?
J.T. It would. We were unable to go through the whole thought this morning, but it is well to keep it before us as to comparative values. I do not know how many we are here but we are not a very great many; still, there are values attached to us and they are comparative. We are not all of the same kind or the same value. We have to be discriminative as to what there is before us here in Washington at the present moment and how it is valued in heaven.
A.C.W. Is this a special communication to Peter?
J.T. I would think so. It says that "Simon Peter answering said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the
living God". That is what Peter said. "And Jesus answering said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens". The Father has revealed the thing to him; it is a wholly spiritual matter. It was not the Son or the Spirit, it was the Father; He revealed the whole matter to Peter.
C.H.H. The thought of revelation is greater than that of observation, is it not? I was thinking of what we get in Ephesians 1:17, the apostle's desire that we might have "the spirit of wisdom and revelation", which is more than observation. The men in the ship in chapter 14 observed certain things and they say, "Truly thou art God's Son"; but Peter said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", by revelation.
J.T. Just so, it was a revelation that Peter had and nobody else had it; it was a foundational idea.
F.J.F. Is the Father bringing out what is new now in contrast to the kingdom? The Lord speaks of the householder "who brings out of his treasure things new and old" (Matthew 13:52).
A.N.W. Does the Lord show that the minds of two divine Persons converge on this man, in the "I also"?
J.T. Quite so, the "also" means that. The Father had said something to Peter, and now the Lord would say something, and what the Lord says to Peter refers to what he is in quality; that is to say, he is a stone, a stone in the building.
C.F.E. What is the difference between Peter here and Philip in John 14:8 when he says, "Lord, shew us the Father and it suffices us"?
J.T. The difference between what Philip says and what is said here is very simple. Philip said, "Lord, shew us the Father", and the Lord said, "Am I so
long a time with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip?". He did not know the Lord though He had been so long a time with him; and of course we all have to challenge ourselves as to that. We are a long time with the Lord ostensibly, professedly, but then how much do we know Him? That is the question that comes up in the heart and mind.
A.R. Would it be right to say the Lord was waiting for this communication from Peter to bring out this light about the assembly?
J.T. Undoubtedly; He intended Peter to have this distinction. You get in chapter 20 of John's gospel other things of a similar nature, but we are dealing with Matthew, and I prefer to keep to Matthew because he is the man that the Lord intended to use to bring out all this as to the truth of the assembly and the gospel.
Ques. In Matthew 11 the Father reveals something to the babes; but here it is a revelation to Peter, not to the babes. It is more personal here, is it not?
J.T. We must quote what the Lord says to His Father about that, "I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes" (Matthew 11:25); "to babes". But this is not that, it is to Peter the revelation is made.
J.H.T. The coming of the Messiah was predicted in the Old Testament, but that the Messiah would be the Son of God was not revealed, was it?
J.T. No, that is revealed in the New.
R.W.S. We have in verse 16 of our chapter that "Simon Peter answering said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". He says just enough, does he not, as over against the men we were reading of this morning who spoke too much? He waits for a suited time and then just says enough, just a
few words but in such power! "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". Is he not an example for us that if we have received something in private we are to wait for a suitable time to give it out?
J.T. I think he is. Matthew makes Peter the first apostle, "first, Simon, who was called Peter". But we have to wait for Paul for full assembly light; he does not appear in Matthew or in John or in any of the gospels; we wait for Paul and we get him in his own epistles and we get him, of course, in the book of Acts.
F.H.L. The Lord builds on this confession the great truth as to the assembly, does He not? It is "on this rock", on the truth of what Peter is saying.
J.T. That is to say the Father had said certain things to Peter in the sense of revelation; 'revelation' is the word used. But the Lord says to Peter, "I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter" -- "thou art Peter". It is not your name, it is not your father's name, it is what you are now, that is to say you are a stone in the structure; and that is a wonderful thing for us to understand, that we are to be stones in the structure.
V.C.L. There must have been something entering into what Peter was that was very choice to heaven; because the Father is able to reveal something to him, and the Lord is able to speak to him, and the Spirit of God later on in Acts is able to speak to him. What is the quality standing out in him that should mark us that we might get these free speakings by divine Persons?
J.T. We have to learn it here where the Spirit of God is, that is where we have to learn it. Peter gets it first from the Father, and then the Lord says, "I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter"; that is, I have got a great structure:. "on this rock I will build my assembly", and you are the kind of
man that belongs to it; that is the point. "On this rock", that 'rock' is Christ; but Peter is a stone, "thou art Peter". 'You are not a rock', the Lord says to him in effect, 'but you are Peter, that is to say, you are the kind of man that I am going to use for the structure that I have in mind to build'. "Thou art Peter, and on this rock", well, the "this" refers to Christ, "on this rock I will build my assembly". The Lord is saying in effect, I have before Me to build a structure called the assembly. I want material for it and you are the kind of man I want. "Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly"; "Thou art" is one thing, but "this" is the Lord Jesus Himself -- He is the Rock.
A.J.E.W. In the appearings in 1 Corinthians 15 Cephas -- or Peter -- is first again, but he is not last, is he? The Lord begins with Peter, but He can continue this thought of appearing so that He goes on from that point and leads right on to Paul. It says in chapter 15:5, "and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the most remain until now, but some also have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to an abortion, he appeared to me also". I was thinking that again we begin with Cephas -- or Peter -- as if the Lord has something there that He can begin with; but He builds upon it; He brings in others as He continues the appearings, and eventually leads up to Paul. Is that right?
J.T. Quite so. But we get more than that there, we get how Paul laboured more than they all. Now tell us more about that, please.
A.J.E.W. I was thinking that it just gave us a link between the basic side in Cephas -- or Peter -- and the opening up of Paul's ministry to us, Paul
himself being brought in as the climax. Verse 9 says, "For I am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called apostle, because I have persecuted the assembly of God".
J.T. Now that is wonderful, morally wonderful, that he should say that, but he says more.
A.J.E.W. "But by God's grace I am what I am; and his grace, which was towards me, has not been vain; but I have laboured more abundantly than they all".
J.T. "I am what I am", yes, it is what God has done. We have the leading man now, but we have had to wait for him; and now we have him, and he is Paul. He is not Peter, he is Paul.
J.H.P. Do you think there was anything lacking in Peter's character that God could not use him for that purpose? The thought of the assembly is worked out by Paul, and the thought of sonship, Christ the Son of the living God, is worked out by John; but Peter did not go on to open up that line.
J.T. Well, those two are very near in 1 Corinthians 15; Paul goes very near to it there if we go back to the passage and read it again, because I would think the dear brethren will get great help this afternoon if we get all these thoughts about the foundation and about Paul; and the distinction that is made by the Lord Himself -- first by the Father and then by the Lord Himself as to Peter.
J.H.P. "For I delivered to you, in the first place, what also I had received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he was raised the third day, according to the scriptures; and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the most remain until now, but some also have fallen asleep, then he appeared to James; then to all the
apostles; and last of all, as to an abortion, he appeared to me also" (1 Corinthians 15:3 - 8).
J.T. We have not got that information anywhere else but here; we must remember that so that we must all pay attention to it. The word 'abortion', meaning 'born out of due time', is a very remarkable expression.
J.H.P. Paul goes on to say, "For I am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called apostle, because I have persecuted the assembly of God. But by God's grace I am what I am; and his grace, which was towards me, has not been vain; but I have laboured more abundantly than they all, but not I, but the grace of God which was with me".
J.T. Now it is wonderful to think on that, to sit down and think of Paul; he is there in the letters to Corinth depicted as he laboured.
F.J.F. I was going to ask whether that very important phrase that he was born out of due time means that his ministry really belonged, as connected with the assembly, to eternity; whether the twelve were connected more with the kingdom and the ministry that they had in the Acts, but Paul coming in his ministry really brought in what was for the eternal glory of God?
J.T. Oh, I would go with that; it is a question of the assembly and the place that Paul has in the assembly and with it according to the divine mind. Peter did not have it; therefore Paul takes the lead in all these matters. It is a remarkable thing that it is so, that the Lord should order it so that Paul would have this place. He is our apostle; Peter was the apostle of the circumcision, but Paul is the apostle of the gentiles. "I magnify mine office", he says in Romans 11:13; I magnify it. We all want to know the meaning of the things in this chapter, for we shall not get the gain of them if we do not know their meaning.
E.A.L. "For other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:11).
A.N.W. "But by God's grace I am what I am" (1 Corinthians 15:10). It is just what we are.
J.T. We are all in the hand of God; God is the Maker of us all, but as you say it is just a question of what we are. "I am what I am", each one of us is that; whatever he is, God has made him that.
V.C.L. Is that thought of what we are carried forward in the beginning of Acts where it speaks of the crowd of names, about a hundred and twenty? It is not who they were, but a question of the quality that was there.
F.J.F. Was the revelation that Peter had 'stone' in his soul? Did that constitute the stone character in his soul?
J.T. You use the word 'soul'; of course there must be much more than the word 'soul' to cover a man.
F.J.F. I was wondering whether that revelation that the Father was pleased to give him, I suppose favouring him above all others at that moment, constituted 'stone' in Peter himself?
J.T. Undoubtedly; but the product was himself -- that was the stone, he was the stone. And so Revelation 21 leaves out Paul; in dealing with the foundations of the wall he is eliminated, because it is a matter of the apostles of the Lamb, which is very remarkable.
L.L.P. Referring to Paul's word as to Peter and himself in Galatians that he was himself to go to the nations and Peter to the Jews, would that be confirmed by the Lord Himself in John 21 where He appoints Peter to feed His sheep and feed His lambs?
J.T. Just so; there is great distinction in that.
L.L.P. He is characteristically a Jewish apostle in that way?
J.T. Quite so, characteristically a Jewish apostle; that is what he is. Paul is the characteristic gentile apostle, he is our apostle; we can rightly say he is our apostle if we are gentiles.
C.H.H. I suppose Peter would have the distinction of preceding Paul by having the keys of the kingdom as you get in Acts 10?
J.T. Quite so; but he lost his ground, you know, which is a very sorrowful thing. "I withstood him to the face", Paul says (Galatians 2:11); he was carried away with James' influence and Paul had to stand the ground against them all at one time.
C.H.H. Yes; but whilst Paul withstood him to the face later on Peter spoke very well of the apostle Paul, speaking about his writings as being Scripture.
J.T. Quite so; because these apostles were real men, men with the divine nature; they were heavenly men, they were real men that formed the assembly. So that all these things that we have mentioned refer to these twelve men as having quality. Then Paul comes in afterwards, Paul and Barnabas too, so that there were others added. They were only twelve at the beginning, and then Judas was omitted because he failed altogether; he betrayed the Lord; he sold Him.
C.H.H. I was thinking rather of the part that Peter had as having the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; that is, would that furnish the necessary moral basis for the assembly? I mean we must furnish the basis.
J.T. Yes; but at the same time the one man that the Lord had in mind had yet to come; we have to bear that in mind, that one man had yet to come, and that man was Paul. Barnabas of course was with him, but Barnabas was carried away with
dissimulation while Paul stood his ground. We get nobody like Paul in that sense.
R.W.S. Does the Lord look down through the whole dispensation when He speaks about hades' gates not prevailing against the assembly? I was thinking of the great importance of understanding what the assembly is today, because of the presumption of Rome, and the speculation of Protestantism as to who Christ is, whether Jeremias or a prophet. The truth is in the assembly and we are encouraged that it will go through, that hades' gates will not prevail against it. Did not the Lord in saying that, look down through the whole dispensation and see our time with all its difficulties?
J.T. I am sure He did, and the great revival too that we have part in now. It surely must have been in the Lord's mind from the very start.
R.P. Why is it "the Son of the living God" rather than 'the Son of God'?
J.T. It is just in the word 'living' I would say, as distinguishing it from all else; "Thou art the ... Son of the living God". It is a word that runs through Scripture. "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", wonderful statement!
E.E.H. Does not Peter use that word himself regarding living stones in his epistle?
J.T. Just so: "yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood" (1 Peter 2:5).
Ques. This confession is made to the Lord Himself. Is there any point in that for us, that it is not only a question of the gospel but of what we are able to say to divine Persons about Themselves?
J.T. Very good; I am sure the Lord is indicating to us that we should be able to speak as we ought to speak.
Ques. In Hebrews 13:15 we have, "the fruit of the lips confessing his name". It is confessing His name to the Father there, is it not?
G.G.B. Can we become suitable material for the assembly without this revelation?
J.T. I do not think so, So that every saint here today is in heaven's mind for all this, that we belong to the assembly, and we belong to all this that we are talking about. Only that Paul is the leading man in the assembly, because he has got the ministry of the assembly; the mystery belongs to Paul, to nobody else. It is very important that we should make these distinctions in our minds and to one another too, so that we can speak with intelligence.
G.G.B. Then we should receive the Lord's own confirmation too, I suppose, as He says to Peter, "I also".
J.T. Just so. Think of all the dear brethren here, and the young people especially -- they are always before us -- I mean as to whether they are really taking in what we are talking about. And the sisters too, are they all taking in what we are talking about as to the assembly, as belonging to it, as being stones in that wonderful structure, stones in it?
A.B.P. So that you would place great importance upon the clarification of the truth as to the sonship of Christ which God developed some twenty years ago for us in relation to entering into the assembly intelligently now? I was thinking of the truth as to the sonship of Christ, as to the position He took up in manhood; and therefore the part we have with Him in relation to all our eternal blessing as the One who has become Man, and the way it has thrown light upon the truth in John's gospel in a special way.
R.W.S. I would like some help on revelations. Do we get revelations today?
J.T. Well, the apostle says, "I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago" (2 Corinthians 12:1, 2). I do not say that that is going on now, but I would hesitate to say it is not. I mean to say, take all these meetings we have had, some of us for the last fifty years and others even more than that, what meetings we have had, and what disclosures God has graciously granted to us in these last closing days as we call them! What wonderful things have been brought out for us, Mr. Darby having been the man to do it. We have had enlargements on these, but the idea is that they are wonderful disclosures from God through the Lord Jesus to the assembly in the last one hundred and twenty years. The question now is whether we realise that these are knowable facts, and whether they are known to us. I am talking to all that are here, brothers and sisters; how much do we know about these things that belong to the assembly? Is the younger element here, brothers and sisters, taking on these things, and becoming characterised by them?
J.C. Is not this a day of great possibilities? Revelations are possible, Paul said, "Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?" (1 Corinthians 9:1); and again, "I will come to visions and revelations", it may be possible, may it not?
J.T. That is the question I am seeking to raise with every brother and sister here this afternoon, as to what he knows about these matters, whether he is able to talk about them intelligently.
A.N.W. 1 Corinthians 14:1 says, "Follow after love, and be emulous of spiritual manifestations, but rather that ye may prophesy". Does that wonderful chapter regarding prophetic ministry seem to stand in that relation?
J.T. Quite so, but when was that written? The Bible was written in the beginning of christianity, so that all of that has come to pass. But then we are coming into the thing today and our children are coming into it; and our forefathers came into it; they have known something about it, and we are here this afternoon to learn something about it. And if we are conversing with one another, or if a group of all sisters are talking together, can we talk about these things intelligently?
C.H.H. The first prayer of the apostle in Ephesians desires that we might have "the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him" (chapter 1:17). Do we get the spirit of it? "The spirit of wisdom and revelation", it says.
J.T. I. would say the spirit of it, because the Spirit is here, the Spirit of God Himself is here; and therefore the thing is tangible to us, so that we can, as it were, speaking reverently, put our hands on the blessed Spirit of God. That is the wonderful thing that enters into our times. But then what we are reading in this book of Matthew was written nineteen hundred years ago, and there have been no revelations so far as we know, since.
G.H. That verse in Hymn 211 used to read: 'Still the Spirit is revealing', but then it was changed to 'Still the Spirit is unfolding'.
J.T. Quite so, and I would say that, because it is a question of the Spirit of God being Himself actually down here. He is down here, and here for us; He is here to open up these things to us and that is the great point this afternoon, that we have the Spirit of God actually amongst us. It is a verity, a wonderful thing to think of, that we here can say this afternoon that the Spirit of God Himself is actually amongst us.
E.A.L. Last night in the address that we had from our dear brother we read, "And it shall be in the last days, saith God, that I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions" (Acts 2:17). What is the distinction between a vision and a revelation?
J.T. Well, I am not saying that there are not things going on that have the character of revelation; but it is a question of ministry today; it is not a question of actual unfolding of Scripture as we have it here; it is a question of ministry, and the ministry still goes on, and has been going on peculiarly for the last hundred and fifty years. We are coming into it now, and many of our younger people too are coming into this matter, and the question is, as I said, whether we can talk about these things together with intelligence.
E.A.L. It is a developing matter. I mean the truth is always broadening out to us, is it not?
J.T. Oh, it is; it is wonderful what has come out in the last hundred and twenty years!
Ques. Have you in mind what John says in Revelation 22:18, "I testify to every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If any one shall add to these things, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book"? The Scriptures are final, are they not?
J.T. They are, and that is the point that I am trying to emphasise, that the Scriptures are final. "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable" (2 Timothy 3:16). The writing of Scripture is not going on now; that has not taken place since the apostolic times; we have nothing of that now. What is going on is the Spirit of God's activity in using gifts. There are certain ones called gifts; God has given gifts, and they are used of God to unfold the truth to us. And that is going on at the present time.
E.A.L. That is what I think we all need to come to, that the prophetic ministry is to stir us up to see how much we lack in the truth.
J.T. Quite so. It is not exactly prophecy, it is prophetic ministry; it is ministry that can be characterised or spoken of as prophetic. We have been having meetings of that kind all along for perhaps a hundred and twenty years.
B.W. It says in 1 Corinthians 14:30, "But if there be a revelation to another sitting there ..." Is that revelation distinguished from a prophetic word?
J.T. There is no revelation today. The Scriptures are complete; the canon of Scripture is complete. We may as well accept that, because it is so. The ministry is going on nevertheless, but the canon of Scripture is complete. These books are contained in it; they convey to us variety, these books from Matthew to the end of Revelation.
E.A.L. Mr. Darby wrote that someone came to him and said that he had a revelation; but he could not show it to him in the Scriptures, so Mr. Darby could not accept the fact that he had it.
J.T. Quite so. There are many like the Mormons and such people who claim that they have revelations, but they are falsifying the truth.
R.P. What is the force of the word 'reveal' in Galatians 1:16, where it says that "God ... was pleased to reveal his Son in me"?
J.T. It is a past event; "God", it says there, "was pleased to reveal his Son in me, that I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations". Well, that is the past tense; that has happened; it is Paul saying what had happened through him.
R.P. I was just wondering as to the difference between revealing His Son in me, and revealing His Son to me?
J.T. It happened 'in' Paul; that is a very good way to put it, because 'to' is quite right as well as
'in'. But revealing "in me" is some operation that God had made in Paul that constituted him the superior man as regards the assembly, because he had the ministry of the mystery. Only he had it, and therefore he is our apostle, and we have all these great advantages in the unfoldings in his writings. We have the writings from Matthew to the end of Revelation -- though all are not his writings -- but we have all that now for our study and to enter into. We are here this afternoon with the hope that everybody will get something, because it is the assembly time; it is the time of the building up of the assembly, and it is going to be complete very soon.
G.G.B. The Lord says, "On this rock I will build my assembly". Now we know that every believer is in the assembly, but we also speak of suitable assembly material. Are we all conscious of being built in by the Lord Himself?
J.T. But then the question is, before we go on to that, Is every believer in the assembly? There may be believers that are not in the assembly; they are not sealed; they may be born anew but they are not sealed. Is that clear to you?
G.G.B. I am glad to hear you say that; but at the time of the rapture every believer will form part of the assembly?
J.T. I believe it fully; because God will do much in a short time, I believe, in the winding up of things.
G.G.B. You mean at this present time that some believers are not in the assembly?
J.T. Quite so, I am sure of that. Many are not delivered in their souls really.
G.G.B. That should be a very searching matter.
E.A.L. Could we put it this way, that they are of the assembly, but not in the assembly?
J.T. They are of it because it is a question of the divine mind; they are of it, but they are not in it if they are not sealed; and if they have not got the Holy Spirit they are not sealed.
F.J.F. We have sometimes to meet a statement that those believers who have not the Spirit will be left behind when the Lord comes.
J.T. God does not put things in that way. I believe He is going to take out every one that is intended in His mind for the assembly, and He will fit them for it before the assembly is finished. God can do it in a very short time if He wishes, you know; He can do very much in a very short time.
R.W.S. May I ask at this point about ministry we have had as to the assembly being the only family? I would like to ask about children, those under age or infants; they are not of the assembly family, are they?
J.T. No, but you see how wonderfully gracious God is. I would say that God is wonderfully gracious to His children. God would say to you, 'You have a large family, and I hope to bring them all in'. He would convey to you and to all of us who have children that He is ready to bring them all into the assembly; it is the wonderful grace of God, I think. We are in a critical time, we are right in the time before the millennium; we have come along to the bordering time of the assembly's finish here. The whole idea is going to be finished. In the meantime God is greatly stressing the idea of the household and that we should take care of our children, and God is saying, 'I will take My part, I will look after them from My side; but do you look after them, see that they are brought into the assembly and properly cared for and nurtured and taught the word of God'. I believe that is what is going on and it is a remarkable time for us.
F.H.L. You are using the scripture, "For also in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13) in relation to the assembly?
J.T. That is right, "baptised by one Spirit into one body".
A.C.W. What you are bringing before us would give us to have greater appreciation of what is coming out in the ministry, that we may be in the spirit of the apostle Paul in having conscious knowledge. In his writings he says, "I know". He does not 'think' or 'believe', but he says, "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded" (2 Timothy 1:12). Would not the ministry bring us to that by the Spirit?
L.L.P. What about Ephesians 1:13 in the light of what you are saying; "Having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise"? I do not quite catch what you mean by those believing not perhaps being sealed.
J.T. When Paul says in speaking to the Ephesians, "Ye have been sealed", he knew them; I am not speaking of people that I know exactly, but he did know them; he knew them all.
A.N.W. There were twelve men in Acts 19, believers, but they had not the Spirit, and hence were not in the assembly surely until they had.
J.T. When we get Paul saying certain things about certain ones in Ephesus, he knew them well; he knew them accurately with spiritual discernment and he could speak rightly of them; we cannot speak as Paul spoke.
G.G.B. You mean the sealing does not follow automatically upon the believing?
J.T. No, it does not, but believers as a rule are sealed. But then there are certain things that may
happen to believers that may hinder them; certain conditions may arise in their histories that may hinder their being in the assembly, and we have to face all that. We have not got the ability or the wisdom that Paul had to speak as to these things. He knew, God gave him wisdom to know these things, but we have not that; we have to admit our limitations.
W.W.M. It is Paul that spoke of what God will do "in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Corinthians 15:52).
J.T. How much He can do in a moment! That is what I am endeavouring to say. What God can do is one thing, but then we may be dilatory about what we should do, and that is another thing; many of us are dilatory about things that we should have done.
V.C.L. You have said recently, which helps me, that parents and the brethren can be free to speak to God asking that the Spirit might be given to one and another. As to our children, you would say we should be quite free to ask?
J.T. Many of us, I am sure, have been given to that, asking the Lord to give the Spirit to the children and the grandchildren, and we need to do it. But we are very dilatory, many of us are quite dilatory on the matter and let things go; but God is not dilatory, He intends to do certain things and He will do them.
D.Macd. What does Paul mean in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 when he says, "But I make known to you, brethren, the glad tidings which I announced to you, which also ye received, in which also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, ... unless indeed ye have believed in vain"?
J.T. As to believing in vain? He is just speaking of facts. Paul wrote it and wrote it to Corinth; he knew what their characteristics were, God had given him that ability, and we might as well admit that we
do not have that ability. Are you satisfied in your mind as to that?
D.Macd. I cannot understand how anybody could believe in vain. It says, "Believe ... and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).
J.T. Why should it not be? How many you have seen, that you can look back upon and say of them, Those persons had not the Holy Spirit! We have had to say that of some persons that were even breaking bread, that they had not the Holy Spirit; the characteristics were not there.
A.N.W. The question the apostle raises in Acts 19:2, is, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" That is the question.
J.T. Just so; they said they did not know about the Spirit.
R.W.S. Hebrews 6:4 - 6 speaks of those who "have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come, and have fallen away, crucifying for themselves as they do the Son of God, and making a show of him".
J.T. So even here today, we are here at this meeting and we are partakers of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is here today operating at these meetings; but there may be people such as I am alluding to who may fall away altogether and prove that they never had the Holy Spirit.
J.S. Matthew 25 would show that five of the virgins were wise and five were foolish.
Rem. And as to demons, James 2:19 says, "The demons even believe, and tremble".
L.L.P. In Acts 8:13 it says, "And Simon also himself believed"; yet we know his history.
F.N.W. It says in John 2:23 - 25, "And when he was Jerusalem, at the passover, at the feast, many believed on his name, beholding his signs which he wrought. But Jesus
himself did not trust himself to them, because he knew all men, and that he had not need that any should testify of man, for himself knew what was in man".
J.T. Quite so; now that is all very simple and plain and very solemn. Because, while I would not impute it to any, yet it is just possible that many of us within hearing today may not be sealed by the Holy Spirit at all; they may never have had the Holy Spirit. But at the same time I believe God is very wonderfully gracious and is giving us to understand that it is the time of the Spirit, it is the time of giving the Spirit, and why do we not get Him? He is available to us, "For every one that asks receives ... how much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:10,13). Why are we not taking advantage of that? There are many that one has had to do with for years, and one could say that at one time they looked as if they were real and had got the Spirit, and then they fall away. The world has had influence with them and they do not go forward. Well, we just have to bow to that, just carrying on as we are doing every day, trying to get the young people, everybody that comes within our reach, to believe the gospel; "Repent and believe in the glad tidings" (Mark 1:15), the word is; God is not failing on His side; then the question is; Why do so many miss it? Because they are careless, I would say. Therefore they need watching; and we need to carry on these meetings that we are having all these years. I do not see anything else to do but to do that, to keep on doing it.
C.H.H. In connection with Ephesians 1:13, "having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation", I suppose we may say that very many are converted without hearing the word of the truth; but eventually they might come under the
truth and it would be like a second conversion. Would that be right?
J.T. There is so much that is unreal abroad in the so-called profession, there is so very much of that kind that is unreal, that it casts you upon God that we might keep on; as we know that God is using us, that we might keep on as we have been doing. And God will not fail us; there will be results. I believe that we can say to the brethren that there will be results. Let us keep on; let us not lose heart.
F.H.L. Can we link this on with the scripture we had this morning, "According to your faith, be it unto you" (Matthew 9:29)?
J.H.P. I was thinking that we should not be too stereotyped in our views, should we? We have that part of the history of Peter in this very chapter where the Lord had to say to him, "Get away behind me, Satan"; and later He says to him, "When thou are converted, strengthen thy brethren" (Luke 22:32). So that God's ways are wonderful in that way. He may take different ways with different people. Would you say that?
A.B.P. Does not John's gospel suppose that we are getting fresh touches all the time?
J.T. I do think so, remarkably so; John's gospel is opening up to us in a remarkable way. And I would say to the brethren not to give up heart, "for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not" (Galatians 6:9), it says; "if we faint not". That does not refer to persons that are unconverted; it refers to young people, persons that are in the field, as it were, that are being reaped, brought into the garner; but the question is to be patient and wait, that "in due season we shall reap, if we faint not". Keep on at it, let us be encouraged to keep on at it.
F.J.F. "Your labour is not in vain in the Lord".
L.L.P. Would you say that the Lord's parable in Matthew 13 would put us on our guard as to this kind of thing? It shows in the parable of the sower the possibility of failure as to the results. It says in verse 19, "From every one who hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the wicked one comes and catches away what was sown in his heart: this is he that is sown by the wayside. But he that is sown on the rocky places -- this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, but has no root in himself, but is for a time only; and when tribulation or persecution happens on account of the word, he is immediately offended".
J.T. Now all these people are before us this afternoon. Young people here, let them get on their guard about all this and see to it that their case is not like these. There are things stated in Matthew 13 that are warnings to us.
L.L.P. Who is at fault when these things happen, when failure comes in? We have young people among us ofttimes about whom we are quite happy, and the next thing we are mourning about them. Is it our fault?
J.T. Very likely; so that we must apply ourselves more strenuously to get results.
F.J.F. Did not Paul stay a long time to seek to help people, for eighteen months in Corinth, and then three years in Ephesus?
J.T. Well, the book of Acts certainly affords us great information in all these matters, as to the truth of conversion and coming into the possession of the Spirit of God and coming into the assembly. The book of Acts is full of it, and it is for us to study it carefully and look into it prayerfully. There is no doubt that results are being reached, but let us be more strenuous about it so that we get more results, more definite results.
Ques. May I ask a question about this victory over the gates of hades? In Revelation 3:9 it speaks of those of the synagogue of Satan, that "they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet". Would those who know a little about that be in the good of this victory?
J.T. I think the book of Revelation has to be taken into account as to its peculiar character. It is not like the book of Acts; things are not definite as they are in Acts. The book of Revelation deals with the very great indefiniteness as to the service of God that existed down through the Middle Ages, the kind of service that would be carried on and the assumed results reached; but they are not so reliable as they are in the book of Acts. Results in the book of Revelation are not reliable in that sense. It is a case of workmen who were growing weary; they were growing unfit and the results were not nearly so great as they had been in the book of Acts; we just have to face all that and seek to make ourselves more diligent to reach the results that we wish to have and to get our children saved and brought into the assembly. That is what I would say.
L.L.P. What are you going to do when they are in the assembly?
J.T. That is the real difficulty, to keep them in, to keep them walking in the truth according to the right principles that are laid down in the book of Acts or in the epistles.
L.L.P. You are putting your hand on things that definitely have been and are an exercise to this locality.
A.N.W. That is the prophetic character of the ministry: "Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet" (John 4:19).
F.J.F. Is it not a question now of the elders? What are the elders doing?
C.H. What about the binding and loosing in verse 19? It says, "And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens". We get something similar in Matthew 18:18; and in John 20.
J.T. Let us see what John 20 says. John is the spiritual side. It seems clear that we should bring in John at this point. He says, "When therefore it was evening on that day, which was the first day of the week, and the doors shut where the disciples were, through fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and says to them, Peace be to you. And having said this, he shewed to them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced therefore, having seen the Lord. Jesus said therefore again to them, Peace be to you: as the Father sent me forth, I also send you. And having said this, he breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit".
We should notice that "having said this, he breathed into them". The Lord breathed into them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit". He did not say this to Peter in Matthew. This is found in John's gospel; it is a collective idea.
C.H. It says, "Receive the Holy Spirit: whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained".
J.T. 'Ye' is plural, it is not just Peter. It is John's ministry and it is the saints in a plural sense, that is, these things are open to them. Now this is John's special touch dealing with this matter that we are now on. John's special touch, and it is not hid. It is the saints that are in mind here, it is the plural; the saints are to come into all this by the Lord's own action: "he breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit: whose soever
sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whosoever sins ye retain, they are retained". These are great facts dealing with this matter that we are now speaking of.
F.J.F. Is it because the Holy Spirit is there with them that they can administer the remission? I mean that when the Lord had gone on high the power still remained in the assembly, because God was present in the assembly.
J.T. I think so. The only thing that has to be added to all this is what was said at the beginning as to the finality or the completion of the word of God. When that is finished we have to leave things, and go on according to what we are doing now, carrying on as we can, God helping us; because God has not left the brethren; He is helping us, and He is looking for results through us. We are coming to it in a small way, but then it is to be in a greater way.
Matthew 26:26 - 32; Matthew 28:16 - 20
J.T. I think it is understood that we should look at the Lord's supper at this reading in the way in which it appears in the gospel of Matthew. There should be some regularity in approaching this subject, which has been much in mind during the morning as we partook of the Supper. It is hoped that these scriptures will yield what is needed as to the matter in hand, a subject found elsewhere of course in the gospels, but to be regarded here especially in the light of the fact that in Matthew we have no record of the ascension of the Lord Jesus to heaven. So that we need to take that into consideration -- as to why it is that there is no ascension, and yet there is so much about the assembly; as if the Lord would confine us to the earth, as it were, in our thoughts about the truth in the gospel of Matthew. Yesterday we had chapter 16, which we scarcely exhausted. It treats of the subject before us so that we might just look at it again for a moment, reading verses 13 to 20. "But when Jesus was come into the parts of Caesarea-Philippi, he demanded of his disciples, saying, Who do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some, John the baptist; and others, Elias; and others again, Jeremias or one of the prophets. He says to them, But ye, who do ye say that I am? And Simon Peter answering said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens. And I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee
the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens. Then he enjoined on his disciples that they should say to no man that he was the Christ".
I thought it worth while to revert again to chapter 16 because of the peculiar place that Peter holds in service in the ministry. That is to say, Peter answers the Lord's question in a way that shows how the Father had spoken to him; and then the Lord says, "I also", meaning that there were two divine Persons speaking. The first is the Father, and then the Lord Himself, "I also", and Peter is in mind. The hope is that what we have read in chapter 26 will enlarge on this. The Lord's supper implies fellowship, so that it is said "as they were eating". The word proceeds to say, "And as they were eating, Jesus, having taken the bread and blessed, broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. And having taken the cup and given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it. For this is my blood, that of the new covenant, that shed for many for remission of sins. But I say to you, that I will not at all drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new" -- that is in a new way -- "with you in the kingdom of my Father. And having sung a hymn, they went out to the mount of Olives". That is a beautiful finish in linking all this up with the beginning of the Acts, and how the apostles are brought in there in view of all that is to come out in that book. But now the thought is to begin with Peter, and then to proceed with the Lord's supper itself, involving eating.
J.S. What would you say of verse 21, as to eating there also?
J.T. "And as they were eating he said, Verily
I say to you, that one of you shall deliver me up". The eating there of the passover is to call attention to Judas' betrayal, that they were actually eating when he was preparing to betray the Lord. A terrible thing that they should be engaged in the satisfaction involved in eating, and yet one of them about to betray the Lord Himself, delivering Him up! In verse 26 we read that, "as they were eating", the Lord introduced His Supper.
Ques. Is it in keeping with the assembly gospel that this matter of who will deliver up the Lord has to be taken up before the Supper commences? In Luke as you know this question is raised after the Supper; but this is raised before the Supper which would suggest the assembly order of things, that matters that are antagonistic to the Lord are dealt with before the Supper takes place. Would you say that?
J.T. That is to say we are bound to attend to the things that are against the truth, so that way is made for the Lord's supper, which is seen in this passage read in Matthew 26"And as they were eating, Jesus, having taken the bread". The thing proceeds in an orderly way, as way is made for it. A good many of the Lord's people are here this afternoon, and no doubt most of us, if not all, are actually breaking bread. But then, the question now brought up is whether there are any delinquencies which would hinder the breaking of bread, whether there are things in any one of us which would hinder this precious memorial of the Lord's supper being celebrated and enjoyed.
G.G.B. What would this eating involve? It was while they were eating that the Lord took the bread and gave thanks.
J.T. Well; satisfaction is involved in it, and of course it is spiritual if applied to ourselves. It is a question of appropriation of what is of God, what is
spiritual. Eating implies appropriation of what is available to us in the fellowship, and of course there is an immensity available to us in the gospel of Matthew. This 26th chapter then alludes to the actual partaking of the Lord's supper.
R.W.S. Does the opening statement of verse 26 "as they were eating", refer to the passover, or to the Lord's supper? In verse 21 it is the passover, and it reads "and when the evening was come he lay down at table with the twelve. And as they were eating he said, Verily I say to you, that one of you shall deliver me up".
J.T. Just so; and now we come to verse 26; it was "as they were eating". We are now coming to the Lord's supper, and as thus together the Lord introduces it. "Jesus, having taken the bread and blessed, broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said; Take, eat: this is my body. And having taken the cup and given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it. For this is my blood, that of the new covenant, that shed for many for remission of sins". Now, we are dealing with the Lord's supper in Matthew. It is found elsewhere of course, especially in Luke; but we are dealing with it in Matthew, the assembly gospel which has in mind to deal with things drastically. In fact there is no word really strong enough to use except the word 'drastically'. Matthew is a drastic gospel, and if we want to be in the fellowship we have to make allowance for this severe character of the gospel of Matthew; because the Lord does not intend to be loose or light in dealing with those who are actually or nominally partakers of the Lord's supper. He intends to deal with things in reality, to deal with them drastically so that we are real in what we are doing. I thought it was necessary to touch all this in view of what is in mind at this last reading, that we might be sincere in what we are doing in partaking of the Lord's supper.
A.J.E.W. Chapter 16 seems to assert the secureness of the assembly's position: "Hades' gates shall not prevail against it". Does that establish a kind of firm platform on which we may take the Supper to be strengthened in it?
J.T. Very good. Proceed on that please.
A.J.E.W. I was thinking of the firmness of the assembly's position, that as we come together we are connected with what is secure, and the Supper as belonging to the assembly is part of that. Is that just?
J.T. Quite so; it is what is secure, and that is what is built on the foundation; as the Lord says, "On this rock I will build ...."; it shows the security and firmness and solidity in the building, the structure.
A.J.E.W. I wondered if that would connect also with the last scripture, the Lord being with us to the end, as if this thought of solidity that attaches to the assembly runs right through?
J.T. It does, as we are keeping His commandments. The question is whether we are keeping the commandments, and they go right through. The dispensation goes right through from the beginning till now, at this very moment in which we are here in Washington; we have still this matter of solidity and the participation in the Lord's supper. I do not believe the Lord will allow it to be surrendered again, it is to go on to the end. I believe that it will go on to the end.
J.H.P. So He connects it all with Himself here. I was thinking of "my time", "my disciples", and then "my body" and "my blood". Our brother has spoken of secureness. Does not the Lord in that way link the whole position up with Himself?
J.T. And then the position of Peter. I wanted to touch on Peter because of the peculiar character of the foundation of the structure of which Peter is a
stone; Peter has a peculiar place, and yet in the result we shall see that Paul has finally the first place. But solidity is connected with Peter; I believe that has to be particularly thought of in Matthew.
C.H.H. Would chapter 5 of 1 Corinthians, and then chapter 10 preceding the Supper prove that Paul was in agreement, so to speak, with Peter in Matthew 16? We are speaking about the necessity for a moral foundation. Would that be seen in Paul bringing to light the truth of chapter 5 of 1 Corinthians and also chapter 10 preceding the Supper?
J.T. It would. 1 Corinthians 5 has to do with discipline and we cannot get along without discipline; we have got to face it. If brethren are to come into fellowship, they have got to face the fact that discipline will accompany the position. And so 1 Corinthians deals with that. A certain one was guilty, very guilty; he had his father's wife, such a sin as that! That is, such a sin is possible amongst the brethren, those actually in fellowship; such a sin is possible. I thought it was necessary to touch all of these points in view of what we are dealing with.
Ques. Is that why it is only in Matthew's account that we have "for remission of sins"?
J.T. Just so; the remission of sins is connected with the Lord's supper, so that it is on somewhat lower ground than the ordinary position of the Supper as in the epistle to the Corinthians.
A.R. It looks as if they were not keeping the feast in chapter 5, because Paul says, "Let us keep the feast".
J.T. Yes; he says, 'When you come together, this is not the Lord's supper'; although it was nominally or ostensibly the Lord's supper, really it was not that.
Ques. Was there delinquency? You have spoken of delinquency, and I was thinking of 1 Corinthians 11:30, where it says, "On this account many among
you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep". Is that the discipline?
J.T. That is just the thought. Proceed further there, please.
Ques. "But if we judged ourselves, so were we not judged. But being judged, we are disciplined of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. So that, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, wait for one another. If any one be hungry, let him eat at home, that ye may not come together for judgment. But the other things, whenever I come, I will set in order".
J.T. So that the Lord's supper is not really food in a literal sense, it is food in a spiritual sense; and since we have to eat, let us eat at home. We do not eat in the assembly because the assembly is too precious and too great and too glorious to make it a matter of mere eating; there is to be nothing of the kind in the assembly.
C.F.E. So that a state of self-judgment precedes the Supper, does it not?
V.C.L. Matthew 5 speaks of hungering and thirsting after righteousness. Would not the thought of appropriation therefore come into the Supper?
J.T. Quite so; hungering and thirsting after righteousness, not after literal food, but after righteousness. Let us have plenty of that!
A.B.P. Is it important that when the Lord Jesus confirmed the Supper through Paul, even though speaking from heaven, He refers to the night in which He was delivered up? I was thinking of the Lord as having passed out of time conditions, and yet that particular night is known in heaven as "the night in which he was delivered up".
J.T. Just so. It is the great section relating to the Lord's supper, and it is one of the most important
things that we can touch on, I think, at this very time.
F.J.F. What does it mean in 1 Corinthians 11 by the words, "shall be guilty in respect of the body"? "So that whosoever shall eat the bread, or drink the cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty in respect of the body and of the blood of the Lord".
J.T. How serious that is, guilty in respect of "the body and of the blood of the Lord", to be guilty of that, and yet to be nominally in fellowship! That is the point that one is so impressed with it at this very minute, what all this means as to our very selves who are actually in fellowship, lest any of these things should come upon us.
W.W.M. Is that the reason that in Matthew 18, we have the question of discipline and assembly judgment coming up in the assembly? If a man does not hear the assembly the result is solemn, for that is intended to get us regulated so that we shall be right for the Supper. Is that it?
J.T. Just so, "Tell it to the assembly"; that is, if he is guilty of anything that should be told to the assembly he is in a terrible condition, he is in a most dangerous condition, in fact involving the whole position of the truth in connection with the assembly. If he does not listen to what is told him, if he does not listen to testimony in the mouth of two or three witnesses, it is so serious.
R.W.S. Might the remission of sins bear upon any one of us as we come to the Lord's supper? There is time then to judge ourselves for sins or sin before we break bread.
J.T. And there is need of it, because there is so much lightness with us. At a time like this when we are together for development of the truth there may be a lot of lightness, holiday-making attached to it, so that with some there is no sense of reality in it.
And that is what we want to avoid and to be clear of.
G.H. In 1 Corinthians 11:28 it says, "But let a man prove himself, and thus eat of the bread, and drink of the cup". "Prove himself", is that the thought of self-judgment?
J.T. Quite so; that is that you are sure you are right in what you are holding or professing; that you prove yourself; not that somebody else has to come and prove it but you prove it, you prove yourself.
B.W. How does the matter of "wait for one another", come in? "So that, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, wait for one another" (verse 33).
J.T. Well, we are to be concerned to consider for each other so that things may proceed happily and freely in the assembly. We are dealing with assembly matters. It is better to wait for one another than to be irregular and carrying on in a way that is out of order in the assembly.
B.W. I wondered if it linked with Acts 20 where Paul gave a discourse. Was that not preceding the Lord's supper there?
J.T. Yes, that is exactly what happened. So that Paul discoursed at length, meaning that there was a good deal to look into, a matter which the Corinthians had not done.
L.W. In this same chapter it speaks of "not distinguishing the body". What is involved in that, "distinguishing the body"?
J.T. It is finding out what it means, what is involved in it; distinguishing it is to discover what it means, what is implied in the body in the Lord's supper.
R.P. As to this matter of the remission of sins, would you bring that in in the thanksgiving?
J.T. If it were necessary, if I had any anxiety because there were unjudged sins in anyone in the company, I would not hesitate to bring it in.
R.W.S. Just like the word that Paul gave before the Supper; conditions may require it.
J.T. We almost invariably have something of that kind at the Lord's supper, though usually after the Supper instead of before it; but it is in view of getting things right if they are not right, and if they are right to confirm them.
Ques. Is there a principle involved in 'waiting for one another', to allow for a visiting brother to break the bread?
Rem. You were speaking about brethren going around the country visiting meetings, and you said that brethren in a locality would generally expect a visiting brother to serve by breaking the bread; and you spoke of that as being acceptable.
J.T. It is quite orderly; I think that what we are saying now really represents the facts that we all have experienced, that we do recognise and respect a brother who is visiting us. It is a common thing amongst the brethren.
Rem. I thought it was a privilege to serve the brethren that way, and therefore if one does visit a meeting it is a great honour to serve the brethren.
J.T. I think it is, and I think it is generally accepted that if a brother is visiting and has ability to serve they make way for him in that particular service so that the emblems may be appropriated. That is what it means, that the emblems are there and certain things are to be done so that they may be properly appropriated in the Lord's supper.
G.G.B. Would it help us at all to know in whose house the Supper took place? They asked the question, "Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" Now just before that we read that He was in a house in Bethany, Simon the leper's house, and lay at table there.
J.T. It must mean the house of a brother that was respected, and a brother that had convenience or means for that purpose. I would think that is about all it means. What would you say yourself?
G.G.B. I was wondering why it speaks of Simon the leper's house. You were speaking of those who perhaps were partaking of the Supper in a mere formal manner, and I was wondering whether there was something for us to learn from this mention of the house; whether the Supper should be eaten in a setting where we have a sense of the terribleness of sin. This One had come in to do away with it for us, and then comes the appreciation of Mary in pouring the ointment upon His head.
J.T. What is in your mind about Simon the leper?
G.G.B. I was only thinking that Simon the leper was one who had been healed of leprosy; and that here was a place where they had actually known and seen the presence and the terrible reality of sin, and here is the One who is now on the point of going into death to do away with it and its power, and from that would flow out true appreciation for this One.
J.T. Just so. Some have thought that Simon the leper was Martha's husband, and it may have been so. How simple things are amongst the saints really when we come to actual facts.
Rem. So that a brother in Brooklyn has offered his house to fill a breach so that the Lord's supper can be held there.
J.T. Very good. There are too many in that meeting, and so he has offered his house to be used for the extra number until the time the room is built. We are very thankful too that there is such growth in that meeting.
F.H.L. It seems to be an unnamed brother whose house was opened for the Supper, as it was an unnamed woman who anointed His head.
J.T. Quite so. Now that our brother's house has been opened, as has been said, there is more liberty for the service.
F.J.F. The fact of its being in Simon the leper's house and in all simplicity would free it of all that is outwardly ecclesiastical.
J.T. Just so, and if a man, for instance, had been a drunkard or the like, and he is restored to God, it is all the more satisfactory and glorious that he is restored and brought into the assembly, and then to function in the assembly. Really that is what christianity implies, it is recovery. We have here today several that I know of who were once elsewhere and are now restored to the truth.
A.B.P. Does Simon the leper's house in principle link on with our Roman position, that where our members once were instruments of unrighteousness and of sin they are now presented to God?
A.N.W. All the evil counselling against the Lord was in the palace of the high priest.
J.T. Yes, that helps too from another angle, and shows that what was in the palace of the high priest was the devilish side of it. They were counselling what they could do to get rid of the Lord, to destroy Him, and yet they were priests; they were men of that type.
R.P. Is the eating that you refer to in the sense of John 6:54, "He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood"? Is there any connection?
J.T. Well, there is a connection, because it is not literal; what is spiritual is meant. Spiritual features of the truth are characteristic of John.
R.W.S. In the eating and the drinking and then the singing of a hymn, and then in going out to the mount of Olives, is there a suggestion of the order of the service? I know that comes in Corinthians,
but is there a suggestion of bringing the Spirit in, in the mount of Olives?
J.T. Oh, I think so. You would expect that there should be room made for the Spirit Himself. I was-thinking just today of the three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who come in in the last chapter, where it speaks of baptising "to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"; there are three divine Persons and They are all engaged; They are all ready and available to serve the Lord's people.
F.J.F. Should we be always ready to serve Them? We are perhaps needing help as to what is suitable when we are together. A great deal has been said as to when the Spirit should be addressed in the service. While the Supper is being celebrated we would not feel free then, would we, to speak to the Holy Spirit?
J.T. I do not see why we should not.
F.J.F. I was thinking of what we enjoyed at Birmingham in 1949. There was a great deal of light thrown upon the matter then as to the service of the Spirit and of the Lord as we are found together, that the Spirit would be there to support us. I think it was said that the Lord Himself and the Holy Spirit are there in order that we should have access to the Father, and that anything that would hinder that should be eliminated.
F.J.F. Some I know were at the time too much occupied with worshipping the Spirit, even as the Supper was being celebrated, and afterwards, without mentioning the Lord at all, or the Father. But you greatly helped us in that reading by pointing out that the gracious office of the Lord and that of the Spirit was to enable us to reach what divine Persons had before Them, to reach the Father as the end to which everything is moving.
J.T. Just so; so that the Father is to be worshipped. That was one of the main thoughts, that the Son and the Spirit would come in to make that effective; because the assembly has in mind, not only the worship of the Son and of the Spirit, but of the Father Himself: "they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth" (John 4:24).
G.H. So it says, "The Father seeks such as his worshippers".
J.T. Just so, "the Father seeks such", that is the word used.
V.C.L. Would not a heart that is properly self-judged and therefore available to the Spirit, be free to speak to the Spirit at any time, so long as the order is maintained that it is the Lord's supper and that the Father is reached? The Spirit might come into the matter at any time He wishes, might He not?
J.T. Quite so. There are three divine Persons and They are all available to us, but available on certain principles.
A.J.E.W. Is there not a beautiful unison about verse 30? "And having sung a hymn, they went out". It is not said they were told to sing a hymn; it was suitable to the moment. The Lord and the disciples were together in it and moved in it.
J.T. Very beautiful, I think; one of the most beautiful touches. "Having sung a hymn", not a psalm but a hymn, the word used in Hebrews 2. I would like to turn to that for a moment: "I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises", or 'hymn thee'. I think it is beautiful how all that comes in. The brethren should all just become enlarged and restful in all that we have just been saying, especially now in Hebrews 2, because it is a question of the service of God in the full sense. "For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I
will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises. And again, I will trust in him". That is a wonderful passage and enters into this present reading, this present moment, for all of us -- brothers and sisters -- to get into the reality of the service of God as opened up in that passage.
A.R. Does that expression, "in the midst of the assembly", involve all the saints on the earth?
J.T. Well, I suppose you might say that, but of course there are saints that are really saints that are not capable of having, or fit to have, part in the assembly; some are under discipline.
A.R. I was thinking that it is more than a local position. For instance, we broke bread at different local assemblies this morning, but the Lord singing "in the midst of the assembly" is more than that, is it not? I was wondering if it involves all the saints as in the light of the assembly today.
J.T. I would say it does; but then you take Presbyterians, Methodists and others; many of them are saints but they cannot have part in the service because they are not governed by right principles.
A.R. I was thinking about what the Lord has on earth in the assembly; I mean He comes into our localities where we are. Someone said this morning that He comes into the garden, but the assembly is really more than the idea of a garden, is it not?
J.T. I would say it is. The word 'assembly' is more than a garden certainly; a garden is another idea.
A.R. It is circumscribed, and the assembly is not circumscribed.
J.W.B. Not the local position is what our brother means.
L.L.P. You pointed out that there were two eatings. Is the first an allusion to the passover in Exodus 12? They sang in relation to that in
Exodus 15:1; it says, "Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song", and it appears to me a very intelligent thing to do. It says, "Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song to Jehovah, and spoke, saying, I will sing unto Jehovah, for he is highly exalted: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea". It has a direct allusion to what had taken place. Now going back to the Supper, we get in verse 30, "And having sung a hymn, they went out to the mount of Olives". What authority have we for singing before we have broken the bread and taken the cup? According to this setting they broke the bread first and then sang.
J.T. You mean that here in Washington when the brethren come together at the Lord's day morning meeting, they begin with a song. Is that what you mean?
L.L.P. We do so in all the assemblies.
J.T. That is true; in all the assemblies so far as I know we begin with a song.
L.L.P. Well, what is the authority for beginning with a song in the light of the order given here, that after they had eaten they sang a hymn and went out to the mount of Olives?
J.T. We begin with a song, but not the same kind of a song that we end with. We do not begin with the song that we end with; that is to say we do not go out by the same door by which we came in. That is the truth of the assembly. It is a happy thing so far as I see, when we come together on the first day of the week to have a song. It is quite right because we have a hymn book and we have suitable songs to sing for the glory of God or the edification of the saints, and we should use these hymns. Then the next thing is that we should differentiate, for there are different hymns. We do not use the same hymns for the beginning of the meeting that we use for the end or the middle, and that is because we are taught
as to the use of hymns. God has greatly blessed the brethren in the way He has taught us as to the use of hymn books and hymns. Some of us during the past fifty years have had a great deal of concern about the use of hymns, because the right kind of hymns are a great matter in the service of God.
R.W.S. Matthew does not give the order of the Supper, does he? Do we not go to Corinthians for that?
J.T. That is what I would say, quite so.
Rem. It says in Colossians that they were to be "teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs".
J.T. Just so; there are three kinds there: psalms, hymns, spiritual songs. Psalms are experience, hymns are glorification, and spiritual songs are just songs that are spiritual.
T.N.W. The Lord Jesus evidently joins in this singing in Matthew 26 and in Hebrews 2, does He not? But not so at the first hymn of the Supper?
J.T. The Lord leaves matters with us. I think the Lord would say, 'It is very happy for them to sing, because it promotes their fellowship to start with a song, with a hymn, or whatever it may be'. We do the same thing in Bible readings and in all kinds of ministry, and the Lord is approving this use of hymns in our services. It promotes good feelings and fellowship.
J.S. It brings all the saints into the matter.
J.T. It does, brothers and sisters alike. A psalm is experience, but a hymn I think is something to be jubilant over, to promote good feeling.
E.A.L. It has been remarked that 'unity body-wise lays the basis for union'. Would you not say that hymns unite the brethren? I mean all the body of the saints is united in the hymn.
J.T. Just so, brothers and sisters alike. I should not like to hear a sister lead the singing, but if there
was not anybody else to do it there would be no reason why she should not. In any case the idea is that we join together in happy feeling, and holy feeling too, which God promotes and confirms.
F.J.F. Has it anything to do with the steps up to the house? There were thirteen steps, songs of degrees.
J.T. Very good, I would agree with that too.
J.F. Would the right hymn at the opening stir the affections of the saints?
J.T. Very likely; I have noticed commonly that it is a happy thing for the brethren to join in a hymn. They know what they are doing, they know the meaning of the words, and it is an "intelligent service" (Romans 12:1). The expression "intelligent service" is a right one.
Rem. One hymn says that 'the Spirit strikes the chord' (Hymn 142 and Hymn 211). It gets us started on a spiritual line.
R.W.S. We know what to do; is not that the point? Paul says, "I speak as to intelligent persons". We know what to do, we do not need to have a set of rules on a board.
J.T. That is just what I was thinking.
J.H.P. Do not these verses suggest the liberty that the saints have, particularly the verse referred to? "And having sung a hymn, they went out to the mount of Olives". Have we not much liberty in these matters, whilst observing the principles that have been taught us?
J.T. We have. It was several years since we had the long sessions on the question of hymns and what their import was, and we were greatly helped. We have a wonderful selection of hymns now, and they are greatly promoting fellowship amongst the brethren and the service of God.
G.G.B. The Lord gave thanks for, or blessed, the bread. Is there something in that for us?
J.T. There is. He has led in all these things and we learn from what He did; we go by what He did. I think the brethren have greatly learned during the last fifty years in all these matters.
T.N.W. Paul speaks of custom in the assemblies of God. That is a good matter, do you think?
J.T. "We have no such custom", he says, "nor the assemblies of God" (1 Corinthians 11:16).
E.A.L. At the end of Luke the disciples are spoken of as being "continually in the temple praising and blessing God" (Luke 24:53). So we have hymns of praise today.
J.T. Just so, "praising and blessing God", that is what they were going on with.
R.P. What had you in mind in reading chapter 28? Was it to link on with what we get in chapter 26?
J.T. I just wanted to show what the Lord intended the eleven disciples to finish with in the gospel of Matthew. Notice there is a breach in the number: there are eleven instead of twelve, which is a humbling thing. But the first of Acts shows how this was repaired. What I had in mind now was that "the eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they did homage to him; but some doubted. And Jesus coming up spoke to them, saying, All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth", a final word for the dispensation that we are in. This is the Lord Himself. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you. And behold, I am with you all the days"; notice, these very days today, "I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age". That is to say, until God takes up the millennial situation the Lord is going to stay
with us, and He is with us today: "I am with you all the days". Very wonderful and very precious.
J.H.P. Do you connect this mountain in any way with the Supper as a continuation of what took place on the mount of Olives?
J.T. There are seven mountains so far as I remember, in the gospel of Matthew. We had the first one in the fifth chapter and this last chapter brings in the final one. Have you some further word about that?
J.H.P. I was just wondering whether in connecting the two chapters you had this one in mind as being a continuation of what was before them at the time of the Supper; or whether as being the Lord's last words it would connect more with the mountain in the fifth chapter that we had two days ago?
J.T. Oh, I think I would keep it by itself; it is passage a by itself. It is a separate thing; this paragraph is a separate consideration. "The eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them". I think we just have to rest on that a bit and see the import of it as bearing upon our own position now at the end, until we come to the millennial period according to what we get elsewhere in the Scriptures.
A.B.P. Does this mountain link on with the suggestion we had earlier of the stability and the security of the whole position?
J.T. I think that is very good.
F.J.F. Does Galilee mean that He is now in reproach?
J.T. He is under reproach still. He is content to be under reproach, and we are content to be with Him in the reproach. That is the position.
V.C.L. Is there any link with what we had in Chicago, that Paul in writing to the Hebrews says "For ye have not come to the mount that might be
touched ... but ye have come to mount Zion"? Does that confirm the position going through?
J.T. Just so, what we have come to; that is well worth reading again. We are come to something now in this chapter at the close of the gospel of Matthew, and it will help to read that passage which begins with a mountain. It says in Hebrews 12:22 - 24, "But ye have come to mount Zion; and to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, the universal gathering; and to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven; and to God, judge of all; and to the spirits of just men made perfect; and to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant; and to the blood of sprinkling, speaking better than Abel".
There are eight things mentioned. Well, now, we have not come to these things in the end of Matthew, but we have come to something. It says, "The eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them". That is to say the Lord had appointed to meet them at this mountain, and that is what is in mind in the finish of the gospel.
R.P. Some of us were reminded this morning that the Lord not only comes to us from heaven but also from the sphere of testimony.
J.T. Very good, that very matter has come to the minds of the brethren, that we do not come from heaven, we are here in the sphere of testimony and suffering. We might as well accept that and the Lord is honouring in us the fact that we do accept it. The Lord is saying to us that He is interested in the assembly and the assembly's affairs; and we expect Him to come to us and He comes. He does not come from heaven exactly, He is here in that sense according to what this chapter teaches, He is here always: "Behold, I am with you all the days", it says.
R.P. I thought there was a very beautiful reference made in connection with that where the bridegroom, or the masculine speaker in Song of Songs 5:2 says, "My head is filled with dew, my locks with the drops of the night".
A.R.. I have heard you refer to the Lord coming from the sphere of testimony and had difficulty in working it out in my own mind until you referred to Saul of Tarsus and the Lord saying, "Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me?" (Acts 9:4).
J.T. Very good; that is the passage that settled me as to the whole matter, that the Lord is saying to a man, Saul of Tarsus, that he is persecuting Him. It does not mean that the Lord is in heaven, the Lord is here in the sphere of testimony and suffering.
W.W.M. Would you say that it is a matter of obedience here? It says in verse 7, "Go quickly and say to his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and behold, he goes before you into Galilee, there shall ye see him. Behold, I have told you", and then in verse 16, "But the eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they did homage to him". So that the answer to their obedience in moving into Galilee was that they saw the Lord.
J.T. They followed up what He said to them, showing that it was a question of obedience. It was the eleven disciples, because they had lost one, that is Judas, in the meantime; but the reparation took place in the Acts, the other disciple was provided so that there were twelve. So it says here that "the eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they did homage to him: but some doubted. And Jesus coming up spoke to them, saying, All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth".
But He is on earth for the moment. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations", notice that, "make disciples of all the nations", a great command, an immense command; "make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name" -- notice this "to", not 'in' -- "to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", the three divine Persons. They are all active and in Their own positions in the economy. And then it says further, "teaching them" -- that is the nations -- "to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you". That is a great command too, "all things whatsoever I have enjoined you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age". It is most striking and most confirming as to what is meant.
A.J.E.W. Is there not a peculiar attractiveness about the word "completion"? It is not just the end in point of time, but it is something that is arriving at completion.
A.B.P. Is it like the hem on the Lord's garment?
Rem. If we are under orders, as it has been spoken of, we shall get to the end.
J.T. If we are under orders -- that is the great difficulty in christendom, that people are not under orders. Many young people, nominally in fellowship, are not under orders.
Rem. We start in Matthew with the wise men; they did what they were told, and the position was held. And so here, the disciples went to Galilee and they were helped.
A.B.P. Does the reference to "all the nations" link on with what comes in later in Paul, this being the assembly gospel? I was thinking how the twelve were slow to take on the nations. The great service of the nations was Paul's, and I wondered as this
is the assembly gospel if we find a link here with the Acts?
J.T. I think that is true; "Lo, we turn to the nations", he says in Acts 13:46.
R.W.S. Is "make" a characteristic Matthew word? "I will make you fishers of men", the Lord said in Matthew 4, involving processing and labour and all that.
J.T. Very good, a characteristic Matthew word.
E.E.H. What is the significance of this formula at the end of Matthew that we do not get in the other gospels -- "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"? How does that fit into the general theme of the assembly gospel, that all the Persons of the Godhead are mentioned?
J.T. Well, it is practical truth that we should know. Is that not so? We should all know these things. Paul says, "In reading ... ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery" (Ephesians 3:4). The question is how much we know, and we should not be ashamed to speak of what we know, Paul was not; he said, I want you to know my knowledge of the mystery. So why should we not know what is to be known?
W.McK. Is it not encouraging for us that though the position is outwardly weak, though there are only eleven disciples, yet the Lord brings in the fulness of the knowledge of each divine Person in that position?
J.T. And then, as we already remarked, the remedy for the weak position is in the Acts, the twelfth apostle is provided there so that the administrative side is carried through; and hence you have the twelve apostles of the Lamb at the end of the book of Revelation. The twelve apostles are there; they are not the eleven but the twelve.
J.H.P. Does not this Name, this wonderful Name, give character to the whole age which is being completed
here? Although there is much ignorance in christendom and misuse of divine names, yet for all that this Name gives character to the dispensation in which we are. Would you say that?
J.T. I would indeed. I think it is all the more wonderful that God has given the great advantage to every one of us that is here today of having part in the divine mind as to the assembly. And it is going to be completed, it is not going to be a remnant, it is not going to be that, the Lord is going to have a complete assembly. Every part, every element of it is going to be there.
B.W. It says here, "They saw him". Would the seeing of the Lord give character to what flows out, such as the preaching of the word? There are preachings that go out where the persons preaching know nothing, we might say, of seeing the Lord.
J.T. Well, the preaching goes on, as Paul could say, "That by me the preaching might be fully known" (2 Timothy 4:17). That is the idea, "the preaching might be fully known". It is not partially known but fully known. And what is known is to come out in the assembly; the whole idea of the assembly is to come out; it is not to be a remnant, it is to be the whole thought of the assembly. It is marvellous to have that in the mind, so that as soon as the assembly is completed she will go to heaven and the millennial condition will come in. The millennial condition will come into its place because God is waiting for it, He has got it in His mind; the millennium is, you might say, the seventh day of the week. The end of the whole period is in the millennium, the millennial day.
F.J.F. So the prophetic clock has stopped till the assembly is completed?
J.T. That is what has often been said; it has stopped until that moment, and then God will begin with something else and He will finish it.
And then we have "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13).
G.H. "Baptising them to the name", you mentioned. What is the thought of that?
J.T. Meaning that the bearing is to -- towards Them; the bearing is towards the Persons. It is not 'in' the name, but "to the name".
F.J.F. Would it be right to say we can never separate the Lord from His body? You were speaking of Acts 9. Is that what He taught Paul?
J.T. I would say that. You cannot separate Him from His body; in Acts 9 that is what is meant. Will you quote what is in your mind?
F.J.F. It is what you referred to already, what the Lord said to Paul, "Why dost thou persecute me?", that He was here with His body. Would that be right?
J.T. Quite so; it was the body He was alluding to really, but the Lord Himself was literally in heaven. Literally He was there but the body was here, that was the idea of it exactly. Paul and others were persecuting it, they were doing that.
F.J.F. I would like to ask a final question. You remember that years ago there was a controversy with regard to the 'abiding presence'. It was said that there was the 'abiding presence' of the Lord in the assembly, and you challenged that.
J.T. Yes, I said He comes and goes, and others said He always remained here. But that was not true, that was not literally true, because the Lord said, "I am coming to you"; "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you" (John 14:18). Others were saying that the Lord was here permanently, which is not so. Now that may seem to conflict with what we have been saying, but it does not; because Scripture is a whole, it is one whole and it does not contradict itself. The Lord has gone into heaven, angels and principalities being made subject
to Him. He has gone into heaven, there is no doubt about it. But then He is here too, and that is the wonderful thing that is mysterious; it is mystery; we are dealing with mystery, which some of us are not prepared to accept really; but we are dealing with mystery all the time.
Ques. Does that link with the presence of the Spirit?
J.T. It does, quite so, that the Spirit is here maintaining things; the Spirit is here maintaining things in regard of it all.
A.R. The Lord said Himself when here, "The Son of man who is in heaven". I suppose we have to keep that in mind.
Luke 2:25 - 38
J.T. What is generally in mind is the idea of a city, and that thought as set out in Jerusalem. We may look at Jerusalem first as seen in the gospel of Luke, how it is presented there; and then as seen in the book of Revelation. The same name is used in both places, only in Luke it is 'Jerusalem' simply but in the book of Revelation it is 'new Jerusalem'. That is the thought one would like the brethren to get hold of at this time, the Spirit helping us, the thought of Jerusalem and how it is carried forward from the old to the new and into eternity: "new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God" (Revelation 21:2). There is no city mentioned more, perhaps, in the Scriptures than Jerusalem. But the thought is that we might get the idea of it as presented peculiarly in Luke, and then link it on with Revelation; so that the principal scriptures before us now are these two books. First we might see how Luke's references to Jerusalem are regarded by the Spirit of God, especially as seen here in this man who was in Jerusalem, as it says, "a man in Jerusalem". That is the thought that perhaps God would place in our minds; not simply the idea of Jerusalem, because that was very common; but of "a man in Jerusalem". And then what it says of him is the next thing: "whose name was Simeon; and this man was just and pious, awaiting the consolation of Israel" -- notice that, he is awaiting something, and it is not anything ordinary -- "and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it was divinely communicated to him by the Holy Spirit" (notice the place the Holy Spirit has with this man), "it was divinely communicated to him by the Holy Spirit, that he should not see death before he should see the Lord's
Christ". And then again, "he came in the Spirit" -- notice that; it is a question of the Spirit -- "he came in the Spirit into the temple". Many had gone into the temple, but perhaps no one so far had gone in by the Spirit -- "and as the parents brought in the child Jesus that they might do for him according to the custom of the law, he received him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now thou lettest thy bondman go, according to thy word, in peace; for mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples; a light for revelation of the Gentiles and the glory of thy people Israel". In this passage we get, I think, the two ideas combined, Jerusalem, and the Spirit as linked up with it; and that will carry us through to the book of Revelation where we shall see the holy city "coming down out of the heaven from God". I think the brethren will agree that in all this there will be food or material for us for this season to help us in the truth; and that is what we need -- to be helped in the truth. And as referring to what we said about man, I was thinking particularly of the Lord Jesus as gone into heaven; it is not simply that He has come down and accomplished redemption, but He is "gone into heaven", He is there now, "angels and authorities and powers being subjected to him" (1 Peter 3:22).
S.McC. In the cities of the world there is great room for the expansion of man according to the flesh; but your reference to Simeon would draw our attention to manhood according to God, would it not?
J.T. That is just what I was thinking. It is a question of man, what God is doing through man. Scripture says as to this city in which we are and all other cities like it, that their day is come; it is only a question of time, a few days, till the matter will be finished. "God ... hath appointed a day, in the
which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained" (Acts 17:31). I think it is well to have that in mind because it gives us victory, which we greatly need, victory of a right kind that is dependent on redemption; but especially on the Spirit coming down from heaven, Christ having gone into heaven. Presently He will come out again, He is coming, and there are those that "love his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:8); not His coming simply, but "his appearing", what will happen when He appears.
A.N.W. The ending up of the cities of this world will be in the great Babylon; the term 'great' is used in connection with it but the word in connection with Jerusalem is 'holy', it is the "holy city".
J.T. Great Babylon, the most terrible thing to be considered as to evil. We shall come to that in the book of Revelation; or rather, we shall come to the idea of the heavenly city, the heavenly Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, because we are going to centre our thoughts, not in the idea of a city merely, but in the idea of Jerusalem, because that is going through.
C.A.M. You were stressing the thought of the Spirit in connection with Simeon, that it says "the Holy Spirit was upon him", and that "it was ... communicated to him by the Holy Spirit", and then that "he came in the Spirit into the temple". Would you say something about the difference between the Holy Spirit being upon him and his coming in the Spirit into the temple?
J.T. That is a good question, and I hope your remarks will bring out something from the brethren.
J.W. Would Simeon have a special place in the mind of God because of the moral features marking the man?
J.T. Clearly God had been speaking to him about his decease; "Now thou lettest thy bondman go,
according to thy word", he says. "And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was just and pious, awaiting the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it was divinely communicated to him by the Holy Spirit" -- notice that -- "that he should not see death before he should see the Lord's Christ. And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and as the parents brought in the child Jesus that they might do for him according to the custom of the law, he received him into his arms" -- think of that, think of the gracious attitude he set out there! -- "he received him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord" -- 'Jehovah', I suppose it is -- "now thou lettest thy bondman go, according to thy word". It is according to the divine word, the word of God, that this happened. So that Simeon is peculiarly distinguished, I should say, in heaven. He was probably kept waiting for this very purpose. God has His men and He holds them for a purpose, and when the purposed time comes they are used. And so Simeon refers to that -- "according to thy word", he says; things are done "according to thy word", and it is "by the Holy Spirit". That would bring out all that has been so pressed on us recently, the place the Spirit should have. He has it; thank God, we can see it. The Spirit of God is getting His own place amongst the brethren.
H.B. The meaning of Simeon's name is 'hearing'; is that important in view of this matter?
J.T. Very suggestive, it is a time for that; not only for speaking but for hearing, and of course that would refer to the sisters particularly, because they are the ones to hear, and to promote the truth in a simple, affectionate way at the present time.
A.D.S. Where it says, "He received him into his arms", the 'he' is in italics. Would that mean 'such a one' received Him into his arms?
J.T. Just so; the italics just stress the fact; it is important that that man was in the mind of heaven for the moment. It is good to think that persons are distinguished; the Lord loves to distinguish people and if He does distinguish them there is a good reason for it. These words in italics have just that in mind; and I think it would be to show that God loves to distinguish His people. But then it is a question of whether we are worthy of distinction.
J.T.Jr. Would the idea of 'a man' show that God has not given up His thought as to man? And then Jerusalem, He has not given up His thought as to that either. God will have them as He ever designed, as man and as Jerusalem.
J.T. That brings up a great deal because the idea of man is a relatively recent thought with God. We can tell how old the being is historically, but as regards the angels we cannot tell, nor can we tell how many there are. God keeps things in mystery and He has a right to do it. He keeps the idea of angels in mystery, but He has them; as it says, "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14), showing how important man is. Then as to what has just been said, that God has not given up His idea about man, of course He has not. He has only just begun, you might say. Going back to Genesis, we might say that man was first mentioned by Moses: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion" (Genesis 1:26). The man is the masculine, he is mentioned first, but the woman is included; it is a plural idea because the same word covers both man and woman. There are several words used for 'man', God is not confined to simply one word to convey the thought. I am greatly hoping that we shall get something in Luke about Jerusalem. It is seen in a comely, holy way in Luke and I confine myself to
that book for the moment and then to the book of Revelation.
J.T.Jr. Is not the first allusion to Jerusalem in Genesis 14 in regard to Melchisedec? Salem is the idea, is it not?
J.T. I think that is good, that puts the thought where it should be, and it brings out what a wonderful man Abraham was too. We are considering Jerusalem only in the good sense now, because it can only be used in the good sense to bring out what we are speaking of. It says, "There was a man in Jerusalem", and the first thing about him is that he is a spiritual man.
J.T.Jr. There is some link with the priestly side in him, I suppose, that such a man would refer to what was for God.
J.T. Simeon waited for the consolation of Israel, and the sister, the prophetess, waited for redemption in Jerusalem; she "spoke of him to all those who waited for redemption in Jerusalem". We want to keep to the idea of Jerusalem, a significant thought.
C.D. In Jeremiah 51:50 we get the words, "Let Jerusalem come into your mind". In the face of all the menace of Babylon and all that was around, the word was, "Let Jerusalem come into your mind".
J.T. That is a good word for us today, because we want to connect everything up with Luke to get the full divine thought there; and then subsequently the thought of the continuance of Jerusalem in the sense of what is new, what is going into eternity. I think these are wonderful things, and we should keep them in our minds and carry them away with us.
C.A.M. In connection with this matter of man being 'in Jerusalem', is it not remarkable that Luke in making so much of manhood, of humanity, has just spoken in this chapter of "good pleasure in
men"? Would it not follow that he takes up this man as in a right setting for the pleasure of God?
J.T. If it is "good pleasure in men", this man would certainly deserve to be thought of. "A man in Jerusalem", who is he, what can you say about him? The Spirit of God says quite a lot about him here. We want to get the full thought of what the Spirit of God has in mind here.
J.W. So that while Luke mentions Caesar Augustus and Cyrenius, and various things that were happening in the world, would you say he hastens on to get to this feature of Jerusalem?
J.T. Quite so. These other things you have just mentioned are simply politics, Caesar Augustus and the like; the Roman Empire is going to pieces presently, it will not last very long now.
F.K.C. Is there any connection with Psalm 122:2 - 4? "Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem. Jerusalem, which art built as a city that is compact together, whither the tribes go up, ... a testimony to Israel".
J.T. Quite so, that fits in perfectly. Say more about that.
F.K.C. I was thinking of this man with the whole testimonial position in his heart, and in the power of the Spirit of God; the service of God comes in too, for it says, "to give thanks unto the name of Jehovah. For there are set thrones for judgment, the thrones of the house of David" (verses 4,5). The Holy Spirit is with him, and he receives Christ into his arms as coming up by the word of the Spirit.
J.T. It is good to have the Psalms before us, because David will come before us presently, the sweet psalmist of Israel; he is mentioned two or three times in the book of Revelation; Christ is said to be "the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star" (Revelation 22:16).
A.S.B. This is a great thought of God in relation to "a man in Jerusalem". All are pretty much acquainted with man's cities, but God's great thought that we are looking at now is to see a man in relation to Jerusalem, and the character of the man that one day shall prevail universally.
J.T. I am very glad of what you say. We are speaking of divine things, of Christ come down from heaven, and Christ gone up into heaven; and presently we shall come to Revelation where the heavenly city is coming down from God out of heaven; it is called 'new', and it is going into eternity. So it is needful for us to keep our minds ready for all that.
J.McK. You have been speaking of a teaching and a learning time. Would you say that Simeon in a way sets out both? He takes the Child Jesus into his arms, and he speaks; and then he says in verse 30, "For mine eyes have seen" -- the matter of seeing what God is doing.
J.T. Just so; how beautiful to think of him taking the Child into his arms! He has a priestly touch, he can take the Child into his arms, he is capable of doing it; he is just going to depart: "Now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace", he says, "according to thy word". God has been speaking to him about his departure. God is going to take him; so that he is ready; he is equal to the matter.
A.D.S. One was thinking that as a man in Jerusalem he was qualified for divine communications and revelations.
J.T. That is right, he was that kind of a man. So Augustus is brought in, as we said, but he is just a politician. But what we are dealing with now is a priest of God. God has been speaking to this man Simeon, and He is going to take him to Himself, according to His word. I do not say that he is going into heaven, because I suppose he died and the Lord has him. Presently we shall all be raised; we shall
not only die; though as far as I am concerned I am not looking for death, I am looking for the Lord to come. And that is just the point that I think should be before all of us, the fact that the Lord is coming, and do we love His appearing? It is not only His coming but His appearing. It is the time for His appearing; the time has already come for it now, you might say.
C.C.T. Is there something in his name being mentioned? He is not only a man in Jerusalem, but his name is Simeon.
J.T. Just so, somebody has said that the word Simeon means 'hearing'. That would imply what he had already heard, and he had been talking with God Himself; he must have had converse with God, because he says, "according to thy word".
J.T.Jr. He is "just and pious". These moral features referred to must come in if we are to be rightly in our cities.
J.T. Does he not remind you of Cornelius? These are suitable men to be talking about. Cornelius was a pious man, and he had a message; he was to send for Peter and get a word from Peter, and he did get a word from him. The Holy Spirit came upon the hearers, a marvellous thing: "While Peter was yet speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were hearing the word" (Acts 10:44).
J.T.Jr. You get the idea of divine communications, do you not -- of how things are communicated?
J.T. Quite so; and Peter fits in in the Acts as to the communications that came through him to Cornelius. And then the Spirit of God fell upon them; while Peter was speaking the Holy Spirit came upon them. I think it is wonderful to get all these facts put together, each thing in its place.
We might well now proceed to our sister, Anna, if I may call her our sister, a prophetess. There is
hardly a prophetess that I know of in the world today. I am not saying anything disrespectful about the sisters, but I hardly know of one prophetess. But there was one here; it was before the Holy Spirit came too that she was here. It would be good if we could get a few amongst us. Not that we want to hear sisters prophesying in the meetings. Some evidently prophesied in the beginning of christianity, Philip's daughters were four of them, four prophetesses. But I do not know of any such now. We can speak of them at a distance, as it were. When the Spirit of God came here there were persons who were prophetesses, such as Philip's daughters; they were daughters of an evangelist too. But now we want to touch on our sister, as I am calling her. It says, "And there was a prophetess, Anna, daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher" -- notice, her tribe is given -- "who was far advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity, and herself a widow up to eighty-four years; who did not depart from the temple, serving night and day with fastings and prayers; and she coming up the same hour gave praise to the Lord, and spoke of him to all those who waited for redemption in Jerusalem". That is the point to get to now, that this prophetess is linking up with Jerusalem as being the proper place in her mind for those who would wait for redemption. She is thinking of them and speaking of it to them; singling out those who waited for redemption in Jerusalem.
C.A.M. Would you say that the idea of redemption really means that she was looking for the glory, the time when Jerusalem will shine in glory?
J.T. I should think that; very good. We can see, without being too critical, how the brethren are getting on in these meetings by what we are talking about between the meetings. See what this woman talked about, how she was affected! She singled out
those who were looking for redemption in Jerusalem, not in any other town, but in Jerusalem, a remarkable thing, I think.
J.T.Jr. So she fills out the thought in regard to Jerusalem; it would not be complete without her, would it?
J.T. Just so; and she has not simply the graces of a woman, but she is a prophetess. See how old she was! It is not easy to tell exactly how old she was, but I have a feeling that she was nearly 106 years old. But what is she going to be when you come into eternal things? What will this woman be then? And what is she now? She is thinking of persons who were looking for redemption in Jerusalem. Evidently she thought of every one of them and spoke to them. I think the brethren ought to think well over these things because what are we talking about between meetings here? Are we getting anything for our souls? It is all very well to say we had a good reading, but then what does that mean? What are we getting for our souls? This woman was speaking to the people who were looking for redemption in Jerusalem.
A.S.B. It says in chapter 1:65, "All these things were the subject of conversation", that is, all the activities in relation to the Spirit; but in relation to our sister it says, "She ... spoke of him", it is now the Person of the Lord Jesus.
J.T. Very good. I think we ought to enlarge on that; we want to get the full idea.
J.B. Would the thought in the city be complete as seen with Simeon the man and Anna the woman?
J.T. I think that is what we are limited to.
J.B. Would it be like what we have in 1 Corinthians 11:4,5, "every man praying or prophesying", and "every woman praying or prophesying"?MATTHEW'S GOSPEL IN VIEW OF THE ASSEMBLY (2)
MATTHEW'S GOSPEL IN VIEW OF THE ASSEMBLY (3)
MATTHEW'S GOSPEL IN VIEW OF THE ASSEMBLY (4)
MATTHEW'S GOSPEL IN VIEW OF THE ASSEMBLY (5)
GOD'S THOUGHT OF A CITY AS SEEN IN JERUSALEM (1)