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Pages 1 to 297 -- "Readings in U.S.A. and Canada, 1950" (Volume 186).

MATTHEW'S GOSPEL IN VIEW OF THE ASSEMBLY (1)

Matthew 1:1,2, 16 - 25; Matthew 2:1 - 12

J.T. It is hoped to make certain special selections from this gospel, covering broadly the whole book up to chapter 26, so that there may be a clear view by the help of the Lord as to the gospel itself, especially the place the assembly has in it and how the Lord's supper enters into it too. So that we need to give attention to what has been written and what has just been read, that as we proceed, the young may follow what is in mind and become instructed; because it is a time for the young; it is the learning time -- hence these early verses. One thing that comes to mind is the fact that the kingship of Christ comes into evidence at once; the word is, "Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham". That is, it is the King, "Son of David", first, and then "Son of Abraham". And so the prevalence of references to such matters as kingship and governorship will come into our minds in this book and we shall have to follow them to see why they should be there, especially the word 'governor'; that is, that the idea of rule is predominating. So that the king is in mind at once, that is, David; not Abraham first, but David the king.

J.S. One able to give effect to the promises, would you say?

J.T. Just so, but to be authoritative too; one who can speak with authority.

J.H.P. So that the angel refers even to Joseph as son of David.

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J.T. Just so; I think we shall do well to pay attention to that. In New York recently we have had the subject of manhood and we came on to David as part of the subject of manhood. David and Samuel were taken together as they represent a peculiar quality in manhood, and especially as David himself is a type of the Lord Jesus, a peculiar type of the Lord Jesus. God said, "I have found David ... a man after my heart, who shall do all my will", (Acts 13:22).

C.H.H. It says in Psalm 2:6, "I have anointed my king upon Zion".

J.T. Just so.

Ques. Would you tell us why the book starts with "the generation of Jesus Christ"? Would you say this has new creation in view?

J.T. It is the generation of Jesus Christ, and then as we said before, "Son of David, Son of Abraham". That is to say, the idea of generation has to be noted to start with, so that it begins with Christ Himself. The word 'generation' begins in the Old Testament in the second chapter of Genesis and it runs along to about twelve references. Now it appears here again, and it is Christ that is in mind; it is the generation of Jesus Christ.

R.P. Would it be right at this point to speak of Him as "the root and offspring of David"? (Revelation 22:16).

J.T. Quite so, the root is His deity, and the offspring is His manhood. The bright and morning star is the illuminating thought that runs throughout, the whole universe is illuminated with it, "the bright and morning star".

R.W.S. Along with the authority there is thought of severity, is there not, which would eliminate from our minds any thought of democracy in the assembly?

J.T. That is a good word. The historical reference to all men being created equal is a fallacy; it is not true. They are not created equal at all. Therefore

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we ought to begin with that and dismiss from our minds the idea of democracy. That is not the leading thought at all, it is a question of manhood.

F.J.F. In the feudal system which governed England for a long time the king was supreme; he was the head of the system, and he was supreme.

J.T. Well, the supremacy of a king in England is not very much; but when we are told to be subject "to the king as supreme", who is that (1 Peter 2:13)? Peter is referring to someone that represents God in authority.

A.N.W. Matthew speaks of the Lord's face on the mount, shining as the sun; that seems to be special to Him. It is supremacy.

C.F.E. You are stressing the thought of kingship in this chapter. Are we to come under the authority of this King?

J.T. Surely; Matthew has that in mind, the authority that enters into the truth of the assembly; we must have authority to work out the truth of the assembly.

V.C.L. Does kingship coming in so early in the book help us to have right assembly thoughts as seeing the pre-eminence of Christ?

J.T. I think the assembly is to support the idea set out in the Lord Jesus. The assembly is a feminine idea, but it is to support the masculine, the divine thought in manhood. The divine thought in Scripture is the masculine, and the assembly is the counterpart of it; divine thoughts could not work out without the idea of the feminine.

Rem. So when Joseph is introduced the generations are immediately brought in: "These are the generations of Jacob. Joseph ..." (Genesis 37:2), linking the generations very prominently with Joseph.

J.T. Because Joseph was so personally prominent that he took precedence really of his predecessors. The generations of Jacob begin with Joseph, a

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remarkable thing. Of course the other sons of Jacob were born earlier, most of them, but the generations of Jacob in the mind of the Spirit begin with Joseph, showing that God has His own right which He asserts in certain persons. He wants to make Joseph a leader in His thoughts in the Scripture, so that He speaks of Joseph and passes by the others.

R.W.S. What you have just said is, I think, a very important remark as to the masculine side being seen in Christ and the feminine side in the assembly. Would you say that is the divine thought?

J.T. Quite so.

F.J.F. Is that why it says that "Upon thy right hand doth stand the queen in gold of Ophir", in Psalm 45:9? Does that complete the thought?

J.T. It is what runs through the Old Testament as to femininity, as to queenship. Nehemiah says of the king that the queen was beside him and the book of Esther is full of the thought of the queen. Vashti is set aside to make way for Esther, that is, God's mind must come in, and that is the assembly. God has His own way of making way for things, and that removes mine; He has no hesitation in setting aside persons if they stand in His way.

J.H.T. Is the assembly ever in the view of this earth as queen, in the millennium for instance?

J.T. I suppose she is; at His right hand, it says in Psalm 45, "doth stand the queen in gold of Ophir".

A.N.W. When Pharaoh gave Joseph the name of Zaphnath-paaneah the record is that at the same time he "gave him as wife Asnath the daughter of Potipherah the priest in On", (Genesis 41:45).

J.T. There is much more made of Asnath than I used to think myself, and I believe many here if they will look into the facts will find that Asnath is much more really in the word and the mind of God than might be thought.

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C.H.H. In Nehemiah matters of administration seem to be more favourable when the queen is sitting by the king.

J.T. Quite so, "the queen also sitting by him" (Nehemiah 2:6); that is, she confirmed the whole position. She did not say anything though, but she was there.

J.H.P. So the dear sisters are not left out in this chapter.

J.T. That is the idea, and that is what God has helped us in, that we must bring them in in these meetings.

J.H.P. I was thinking of the three that are mentioned here, and then the fourth, although she only comes in in the name of her husband; but I wondered if the three would set forth suggestions of the assembly as supporting Christ?

J.T. And some of them are very questionable characters, outwardly, as you know, but we can take them as they stand. Why should they be mentioned as they are? For instance, it says "Thamar", and Thamar would be a questionable character. Then "Rachab", and "her that had been the wife of Urias". Will you quote them all, Mr. P.?

J.H.P. There is Thamar in verse three, and then Rachab and Ruth in verse five; and the fourth is not even given a name, it just says, "David begat Solomon, of her that had been the wife of Urias".

J.T. She is distinguished in that she had such a husband, that is the idea. These women have a remarkable place in this genealogy, and why is it that God is disregarding human thoughts and setting them aside to bring in His own thoughts? This genealogy we might say is full of that sort of thing, that is to say, it is full of the rights of God where human rights or feelings or pretensions have to disappear. God will set them aside without question, and we may have to face all of this. We are dealing

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with Matthew because the assembly is in Matthew; the assembly is the great thought in Matthew.

J.H.P. So would the questionableness that you refer to correspond with the reproach in which the assembly now is, in which we are in measure today?

J.T. Right here today in this great capital of the United States. How many of us are there here? There are very few, but what are we to God? What is the divine portion? What is there in the presidency as compared to the rights of God amongst us here today? That is the thing to get at.

A.R. When you use the word 'assembly', have you in mind what is feminine all the time?

J.T. Pretty much. Of course you might have unconverted people feminine, but we are thinking of what is of God, what God approves.

J.H.T. In what aspect does the assembly really come in in Matthew? The Lord brings it in when Peter makes his confession, and He says, "On this rock I will build my assembly", (Matthew 16:18). What aspect of the assembly would that be? It is not the bridal thought there, is it?

J.T. Sometimes the neuter takes the place of the feminine, for instance, "hades' gates shall not prevail against it". We have not 'she' or 'her' there, but "it". The 'it' is the assembly, but generally speaking the assembly is feminine.

A.N.W. So the 'my' in "my assembly", might very well allow the Lord to view it femininely.

J.T. Just so, very good.

R.W.S. Authority could hardly be placed in a more attractive way than in the assembly being subjected to the Christ, could it? Does that not help us to be subject as we see the supreme place that Christ has as King?

J.T. Just so. So with wives being subject "to their own husbands" (Ephesians 5:24), the word 'own' is striking,

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"their own husbands" gives full place to the husband, the masculine.

Ques. Would you say the fact that God's will goes through would indicate the seriousness of our standing in the way? You were saying that God has His own mind and He sets persons aside if they stand in the way. How serious it would be to stand in the way! Adonijah presumed to stand in the way, did he not?

J.T. Yes, quite so; and how we need wisdom in regard of all these matters! Nathan the prophet intervened and took matters up, and God was so fully with him that he settled the whole matter as to Solomon. Adonijah said, "I will be king" (1 Kings 1:5), but Nathan intervened and went to Bathsheba and gave her good counsel. She was not so wise as she might have been. She is mentioned here in this chapter in Matthew but Nathan had to put her right; he got her to go to the king and put the right man before him; and the whole point here would be that we should proceed as to the right Man, that the right Man may come in. Bathsheba was a good sort of person in a certain sense but she was mistaken, and foolish too. She was not a reliable person, but at the same time she is brought in here, and for a good reason undoubtedly, because she had to do with Solomon. And she was the wife of Urias, she had to do with that man, and he was a great warrior on Jehovah's side. But we get weakness even with women like Bathsheba, a peculiar kind of weakness. We have to be on our guard about such weakness, we want the peculiar qualities that are according to God, the qualities of manhood -- because the word 'man' covers woman as well as man. We want the right quality, the ability to stand for the right. Eve failed in that, because she listened to Satan; and so we may have the sisters failing seriously if they are not retaining the quality of manhood as

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God has endowed it and put it forward for us. I thought these readings would bring out that whether man or woman, we should be sure to discriminate properly as to what belongs to God, as to the rights of God.

W.W.M. So it says in regard of Samuel, that he mourned over Saul; but God said to him, "Fill thy horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite; for I have provided me a king among his sons" (1 Samuel 16:1). I have provided a king. That was what God had in mind, was it not?

J.T. Samuel, great man though he was, failed in regard to Eliab. I mean to say whether we are sisters or brothers, we are not always right in discriminating in favour of the rights of God; because it is a prime thought, this matter of the rights of God; whenever He wants to assert them others have to give way.

E.A.L. Would you say it is a great lesson that the subjective element must take on the truth through the prophetic element? That is, Nathan was used to adjust Bathsheba so that Solomon had his right place.

J.T. Nathan is a saving element throughout that section. Even David himself was a failure. Everything hinged on Nathan.

E.A.L. So that is all to stress how important the prophetic line should be to us.

F.N.W. Does God assert His rights in Isaiah 7 when He speaks of Immanuel, and is there some subjective response to that in the saints in chapter 9 where it is said, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given"? The first thing mentioned about that Person is that the government is upon His shoulder.

J.T. And so it is important to see in our chapter that it is said of the Lord, "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel", that is, "God with

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us"; there is the point, God with us. And then it goes on to say, "But Joseph, having awoke up from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had enjoined him". Joseph here is thoroughly subject. So you get one after another throughout this book in whom God is asserting His rights, and they have to give way. But then there are those on the other hand who are already subject, and they are filling out the divine mind. So what has been alluded to in Isaiah is here in this chapter before us.

F.N.W. And do you not think that the greatness of Christ is made way for in the assembly as the rights of God are recognised? I was thinking of what is said of Christ in Isaiah 9, following the statement that the government shall be on His shoulder, "and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace".

A.J.E.W. Does this chapter show how God can hide His choicest thoughts and operations from men publicly? I was thinking that this genealogy runs right through to completion in spite of much history in the intervening time. And then Herod seeking to find out more of this matter is defeated, is he not? Herod is not able to secure his end through these magi.

J.T. Quite so. He dies; that is, he is taken out of the way, as the Herod in Acts 12 was, who was eaten of worms. I mean that God does assert His rights in that way and takes people out of the way in judgment.

R.W.S. Would "another way" in verse 12 of chapter 2 indicate the spiritual side which does conceal these matters from the public eye? It says, "They departed into their own country another way".

J.T. It was not the way the enemy would have them go, they went another way of their own choice. It was the right way, just as Rahab sent back the

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spies another way. And that is the idea, and it defeats the devil.

E.E.H. How is it that the announcement of kingship comes through the magi?

J.T. That is another point that we cannot pass by because it is a leading point in the second chapter. They were gentiles but they were looking for the king that was born to the Jews. It says, "Now Jesus having been born in Bethlehem of Judaea, in the days of Herod the king, behold magi from the east arrived at Jerusalem, saying, Where is the king of the Jews that has been born?". It is important that the magi say that, and the star is working with them; they are apparently astronomers, and they are the kind of people that God takes up, to carry out His will. And so the star is working with them.

F.J.F. Would you connect that at all with Psalm 19:1, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork"?

J.T. Quite so.

R.W.S. Are these features which are early in the book to help us in the subject matter of the book, and in the understanding of the thought of authority in the assembly, and of wisdom as represented by the magi, wisdom in the assembly?

J.T. Just so; the whole passage deserves a great place because these men come out from the gentiles. You might say it is the sovereign action of God to bring these men in. It says, "Now Jesus having been born in Bethlehem of Judaea, in the days of Herod the king, behold magi from the east arrived at Jerusalem" -- they are from the east, they are not Jews, they are gentiles -- "saying, Where is the king of the Jews?" That is to say it is a question of the divine rights in Israel, and the King is there, and they are looking for Him. God is working with them. So it says, "Where is the king of the Jews that has been born? for we have seen his star in the east, and have

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come to do him homage". It is called His star, the magi call it His star; but who are these magi? who are they? Apparently they are men who are engaged with the stars, and why should not God use men of that type, even if they are not Jews, if they bring in Christ? Even if that is their profession, why should not God use them to work out His thoughts? All that is Matthew's presentation, the rights of God in bringing out His thoughts whatever men may think.

V.C.L. Does it not raise a question with us? These magi saw something and it raised a spirit of inquiry, while Herod had only curiosity. Would that not be a challenge as to what we have seen of what God is doing, and whether we are here on those lines?

J.T. Quite so; but it was not only curiosity with Herod, it was devilish opposition to Christ. It was not a curious thing merely; it was wickedness, because he had murder in his heart. These are Matthew features, but God is going to dispose of this man; he is in His way and God will dispose of him; he will die, which he did. But then he put children to death too, showing how far man's will will go against God.

B.W. Is it not interesting that after they had come to the king, and then had seen the little child, they were divinely instructed? It speaks in the footnote to verse 12 of an answer received after consultation. They were divinely instructed.

J.T. Just so, they were divinely instructed not to return to Herod, not to do it. That is to say, God was against Herod.

Rem. As to their being divinely instructed, the footnote says it is 'an answer after consultation'. They were looking for an answer in regard to this matter. Often when we pray we do not look for an answer.

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J.T. It is important to see all these things mentioned, and how God comes down to these facts. There is occasion with these magi for consultation, for taking wise counsel about a matter like this. And how often it comes up amongst the brethren, the need for wise counsel and for waiting about things to see how they should work out! And they will work out if we wait on God about them.

J.F. Is the acknowledgment by the magi of the king of the Jews what causes the wickedness to rise in Herod's heart? I was thinking of these magi acknowledging openly that there was a king of the Jews there. Is that the reason for the open wickedness in the heart of Herod in the attempt to destroy?

J.T. It may be, but the wickedness was in the heart of Herod anyway. The Herods were all wicked, every one of them. I mean to say they are a class of people that are characteristically wicked; the devil has them in his hands, and God takes account of them thus. Now Russia is in the devil's hands at the present time. It is a peculiar thing that God has allowed all this to come up in the political world; it is the devil's work, and Russia is in a way representing a class of humanity that is openly against the rights of God.

C.H.H. We have been speaking about the consultation that took place with the wise men, and there was what took place between Abigail and her young man. What comes to light after that is the wickedness of Nabal so that, like Herod, he is removed out of the way and the road is made clear for David.

J.T. Abigail, of course, is a type of the assembly, and the young man with whom she was consulting gave good advice. That is, we can count on persons like that in the assembly, persons of good judgment.

A.R. Russia is not really against Rome, is she? She is against the assembly.

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J.T. She is against Rome too because it suits her. She is characteristic of what at the moment is against God. Not that we are going into politics, only that the peculiar character of communism is over the world; it is behind things in the world, and the devil has got hold of it. That is a remarkable thing, that no matter what you see in the public information of the day, the devil has got hold of that system.

A.N.W. That would be where the gates of hades are acting; the gates of hades are behind all of that.

Ques. Is that why we have had so much counsel in the ministry as to what to say before the tribunals and all that kind of thing? Is that where wisdom works out so that we do not damage the Lord in what we say?

J.T. Quite so. Wisdom is seen with Abigail in the young man that she used; wisdom was working there. And wisdom was working with Nathan too in connection with Bathsheba. So that there is wisdom available and we have to count on God for wisdom against certain elements in this world.

L.W. Do the magi display wisdom here in not opposing Herod? They go as they are sent, but they are open to divine instruction so that they do not return to Herod.

J.T. Quite so, they disregard Herod. He expected them to act for him, but they wisely acted for the Lord; they acted for what was right. They returned the other way, they did not take Herod's way.

F.J.F. Would not the instruction now be by the Spirit, the divine instruction as to what to do, we having the Spirit with us? We do not need dreams now, do we?

J.T. It is wonderful what the brethren can get from the Spirit. Just about two years ago a brother in England wrote to me and said, 'What I am impressed with in the way the Spirit is coming before us now is that you can commune with Him'. It

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touched me very much and it has affected me ever since. The Spirit of God is here on our account, and is always near; Scripture says, "The Lord is near", (Philippians 4:5); and in truth the word shows that the Spirit is always near to help us.

R.P. Would you say a word as to the part the Holy Spirit has in this matter, in the first chapter especially? It says in verse 18, "She was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit"; and lower down it says, "For that which is begotten in her is of the Holy Spirit".

J.T. It is the Spirit Himself acting; it is the action of the Spirit. It is a wonderful thing that the Spirit of God has come in in a special way in our time. I do not know whether they had the light of it in the time of the revival; I do not think they had; in fact I am sure they had not. But God has given it to us, and it is a question now of what use we are making of it. And the Spirit is here Himself in connection with the birth of Christ, in the conception of the Lord Jesus Christ. So it is said, "Before they came together, she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit", it was His own action. And then again in verse 20, "For that which is begotten in her is of the Holy Spirit". It is the Spirit's own action, and that is the present great fact that has come in for us, this immediate action of the Spirit, and it is helping us in matters.

A.R. And so it says that He hinders; there is not only "that which" hinders, but "he who" hinders; it is His own action, is it not, which bears on what we are saying about governments?

J.T. Yes, quite so. "There is he who restrains now until he be gone" (2 Thessalonians 2:7). That is what we are counting on, that there is something to keep back that awful thing, the apostasy, that we have already alluded to -- "There is he who restrains now until he be gone, and then the lawless one shall be revealed, whom the

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Lord Jesus shall consume with the breath of his mouth, and shall annul by the appearing of his coming" (2 Thessalonians 2:7, 8). So the Lord is going to act for us presently in all these wonderful things.

V.C.L. Is not the Spirit of God helping the assembly peculiarly now in keeping the right Man before us?

J.T. That is what He is here for, He is sent from heaven. The Lord Jesus Himself said that He would send another Comforter, and He is here; He will be with us for ever. He is here now, and He is here to look after matters, assembly matters, and we can count on Him.

V.C.L. There is a system which says, "I sit a queen, and I am not a widow" (Revelation 18:7), and is not that the system which has publicly denied the Spirit any place?

J.T. The apostasy is in that system.

G.G.B. Different names are given to the Lord, and is it not remarkable that here His name is given as Emmanuel, God with us? I was wondering whether that is in view of the Spirit's dwelling with us today.

J.T. Just so. How wonderful it is to wake up, it may be at midnight, and something happens, and you feel that the whole domain around you is moving in the right direction; the Spirit of God is there! Why do we not look for that more? The Spirit of God is likely to come in at any time with any one of us.

G.H. I would like to ask for a little help about this use of pronouns. In Ephesians 5:25 it says, "Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it"; and in Romans 8:16 it says, "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God". Why does Paul put it that way -- 'itself' and 'it'?

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J.T. 'It' is the neuter; sometimes the Spirit of God is spoken of as 'Him' or 'He', but sometimes 'It' is used. That is quite right, it is just a question of grammar; but the mind of God is in it too. God is entitled to use the neuter when He wants to.

R.W.S. So with "the holy thing". In Luke 1:35, that is the same idea, is it not?

J.T. Yes, "the holy thing also which shall be born", that is the neuter thought too. God is entitled to use these things.

Ques. You were speaking about waking up at night and thinking that the whole domain around you is moving in the right direction. Is that what John experienced in the first of Revelation as being in the Spirit on the Lord's day?

J.T. Quite so; what a marvellous thing it was! "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day", he says, "and I heard behind me a great voice", and he speaks of the voice as something that he might see! One of the most marvellous things in the book of Revelation is what John describes at that time.

Ques. So it is not only on the Lord's day that we can be in the Spirit, is it? I mean that we can be so at many other times; is that not what you are trying to stress, that we ought to be more constantly in the Spirit?

J.T. Quite so; I find, as I mentioned earlier, that you can commune with the Holy Spirit, and you can have Him at any time. It has come home to me ever since. Not that the brother said all that, but I am saying it; he meant that the Spirit of God is ready to be communed with. It is wonderful that He might be with us at any time. He is here, He has come down from heaven, sent from heaven, we are told. The Lord Jesus is not said to be sent from heaven, but the Spirit is said to be so sent. He is here in obedience to carry out the divine will in the assembly.

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A.R. So that when we are testifying before these men in the tribunals we can count on His personal support as near us, can we not?

J.T. Quite so. How often it happens too!

R.W.S. And alone, in communion alone, it is a two-way matter, is it not? That is communion, that He will say something to us and we speak to Him.

J.T. Quite so; in fact the word is, "the communion of the Holy Spirit", and that is a two-way matter; just so.

B.W. Is it not interesting that this consultation, this two-way matter, follows upon the worship? That is, the magi opened their treasures; they offered to Him gifts. I was thinking of how this ministry of the Spirit has followed upon much ministry pertaining to the Lord's supper.

J.T. That is good, and that expression, 'a two-way matter', is good, too.

Rem. It says of David that he communed with Abigail with regard to their marriage.

F.J.F. So the Holy Spirit has power over what is physical, has He not? I was thinking of what it says, that "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens", (Job 26:13).

J.T. Quite so, it is a remarkable thing.

J.H.P. I was thinking of what Peter said at Pentecost: "This is that which was spoken through the prophet Joel"; and then he goes on, "I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your elders shall dream with dreams", (Acts 2:16,17). I was wondering if in any way the present conditions and the liberty into which we are brought would correspond with that Scripture?

J.T. Just so; remarkable things were opening up at the advent of the Spirit of God from heaven. And I was going to say something about this matter of

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the heavens being opened up to us. The Scripture says that God has made the worlds by the Lord Jesus, "By whom also he made the worlds", (Hebrews 1:2). Now who can tell us how many there are? Wonderful to think of such great things, the worlds, and that God has made them by Christ! and I was thinking of Paul being caught up to the third heaven, and I am only speaking now of what we are all entitled to enter into and enjoy in our quiet moments, what may happen and how we are to understand things that are spoken of in the Scriptures that are in themselves beyond our understanding. But still they are there and therefore Paul says, "I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago ... caught up to the third heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:3). He uses the word 'caught'. Well, where is the third heaven and what did he see? He said, 'I heard things spoken that are not given to men to utter, not lawful for men to utter'. But they are there, unspeakable things. And so the apostle says the second time, 'I was caught up'; but he says, he was caught up into -- into Paradise; not now 'to' the third heaven, but 'into' Paradise. Well, I have to concentrate on this and see what I can make out of it. What are the third heavens? Why should the numeral be there? And then why should Paradise be there? And then I am caught into it. What do I know about that? Really, dear brethren, we are caught into a realm that is wonderful, within our own reach even today, where we are now; these things are within our reach. They are wonderful things and we are in touch with heaven; but then the heaven itself is so beyond anything that one can put into words! But at the same time the area is to be traversed, to be traversed spiritually. But then there is the sphere where God is, where God dwells; He dwells in unapproachable light. We have to realise that. So that we come to a

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point where we should be sober and solemnised and become holy and find out these things for ourselves. The Holy Spirit is here; He is not come and gone; He is here to stay for the moment, to open up these things to us, to aid us, so that we might enjoy them and understand them.

Ques. Do you think that as we are found perhaps more frequently in the communion of the Holy Spirit we might come into the understanding of some of these things which Paul saw?

J.T. Quite so.

T.N.W. But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit.

J.T. That is right, God has done it.

C.H.H. Matthew is the only one of the gospels that says the heavens were opened to Jesus. Then in Revelation 4 the door is seen opened in heaven and the voice is heard to say, "Come up here", and then John became in the Spirit. I was thinking of the peculiar character of Matthew in bringing heaven in touch with us.

J.T. That is right.

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MATTHEW'S GOSPEL IN VIEW OF THE ASSEMBLY (2)

Matthew 5:1 - 26, 43 - 48

J.T. It is a feature of Matthew that mountains are brought forward in relation to the subjects of the book. There are seven of them. This in chapter 5 is the first one. They run on to the end of the book and the last one is where the Lord appears in Galilee to the disciples. In this chapter the Lord is said to have gone up into a mountain; it says, "But seeing the crowds, he went up into the mountain"; the article 'the' is characteristic there. "And having sat down, his disciples came to him; and, having opened his mouth, he taught them". What has been said will help us, I think, as to the objective in this chapter, namely the exhortation in the last verse, "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect". It is as if there is available to us in the instruction the power of inwardness in which to develop in the truth and in what is acceptable to God and effective in the administration, because it is a question of administration in this chapter. It is said of David that he encouraged himself in the Lord his God, meaning that there was inward power to gather himself up in difficult times and adjust himself, adjust himself; not to wait for God to do it, but to do it himself. I thought therefore that what has been remarked should govern our consideration of this chapter. It is what we may call the mount of legislation. There is a mountain called the mount of transfiguration, but here it is the mount of legislation; not simply that we are transfigured but that there is power in us to adjust ourselves. In this mountain of legislation things are to be put right with authority. There is ability granted to us to put ourselves right. We are to be called the sons of

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God, and to be among those who see God; marvellous thought, the blessed ones who see God!

A.N.W. By legislation do you mean that He is setting out the laws that govern the kingdom of which He is Head?

J.T. Just so, because everything has to go through; nothing has been written down in a haphazard or light way but in a true way; that is to say, the things have to happen. Nothing shall pass away; He says, "One tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled". Everything must go through that is in the divine mind.

Rem. It is remarkable that in the chapter you alluded to in Samuel it says that "David strengthened himself in Jehovah his God" (1 Samuel 30:6). In that chapter he legislates, because it says there, "For as his share is that goes down to the battle, so shall his share be that abides by the baggage: they shall share alike. And it was so from that day forward; and he made it a statute and an ordinance for Israel to this day", (verses 24,25). He legislated, did he not?

J.T. That is to say, he is the king. David is the king.

J.V.C. If there is to be administration rightly, is it not necessary to come to where the Lord is on this mountain?

J.T. Exactly, that is just what you get here: "But seeing the crowds, he went up into the mountain, and having sat down, his disciples came to him". They came to Him, that is the principle of it. That is to say they are moved, they are governed by what He does. And of course that enters into assembly conduct on our part; because Matthew is the assembly book and as of the assembly we have to learn from it. This matter of coming to the Lord is on elevated ground; it is not, as we get in Luke, on the level where the Lord met His disciples, but here it is elevated ground for legislative purposes.

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V.C.L. This position seems to divide between those that are just of the crowds and those who are called disciples, because it says, "his disciples came to him". Does that differentiate between them and the crowds?

J.T. That is the idea, they are discriminated rightly, the word 'disciples' is not the word 'crowds'. The disciples came to Him, the crowds did not come to Him. 'The crowds' is a form of expression that indicates irregularity; they were not regulated properly, whereas the disciples are; they are governed by the Master, the One by whom they are taught. They learn from their Master.

Ques. So in Deuteronomy where we get mount Gerizim and mount Ebal it says that Moses said to the people, "This day thou art become the people of Jehovah thy God", Deuteronomy 27:9. Should we not realise in our relations here that we are the people of God and He has a right to legislate?

J.T. Yes, quite so; we are that if we are. I hope we are realising it here now, and I believe we are. There is such a thing as God legislating, but outside here in Washington the thing is not so.

A.N.W. So it says in Acts that "they ... taught a large crowd", (Acts 11:26); and following on that the idea of the assembly comes into view.

J.T. Just so. Really the assembly is seen in this whole book. The last mountain is the mountain at Galilee where the disciples went and met the Lord by His appointment; He appointed them to meet Him there and they were under control. That is the great feature of the assembly, that we are under the Lord's control.

J.H.P. It says here that "having opened his mouth, he taught them". Would that be that the disciples would have regard for what came out of His mouth?

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J.T. For what He was saying. It is said in fact in chapter 4 that "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which goes out through God's mouth", a very precious thought; every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. That is what the Lord said to Satan.

F.J.F. Does the apostle Paul as the great minister of the assembly give us instruction as having come under the Legislator? He says, for instance, "For I received from the Lord ..." (1 Corinthians 11:23).

J.T. Go on further. What did he say he received of the Lord? "That which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread". Is that what you have in mind?

F.J.F. Yes, I have, and that we also as coming under Him continue that. We break bread, it is His mind.

J.T. Just so. We have to wait till chapter 26 of this gospel for that, of course, but we have it distinctly before us to come to that.

F.N.W. Would this link on with the first chapter of Haggai? Verse 8 says, "Go up to the mountain and bring wood, and build the house, and I will take pleasure in it, and I will be glorified, saith Jehovah".

J.T. Just so, but here it is the Lord leading in the thing, while in the passage you allude to the people were to go up to the mountain; they were enjoined to do it as an obligation. Here they move together as disciples, on the principle of discipleship.

R.P. It says, "having opened his mouth, he taught them". Do we get what is authoritative here? And today would we make room for what is authoritative?

J.T. "Having opened his mouth"; God calls attention to man's mouth. The word in Exodus 4:11 is, "Who hath made man's mouth?" What mouth

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was there like that of the Lord Jesus! The thought descends to others, to Peter, for instance; it says in Acts 10 that Peter opened his mouth. He took the ground of speaking authoritatively, as being of the apostles; he had apostleship.

A.N.W. Matthew's remark at the close of this series of chapters ending with chapter 7 is, "And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were astonished at his doctrine, for he taught them as having authority, and not as their scribes".

R.W.S. The disciples do not say anything; it is not a two-way matter, is it? I was just looking through this section closing at the end of chapter 7, and I do not notice that the disciples say anything; they do not make any comments or ask any questions. Is there something in that? Our meetings today are more of a conversational character, but that does not mean that there is any less authority in the ministry because of it?

J.T. So in Acts 20, although the apostle himself discoursed in service before the breaking of bread, yet at the end of that section you have him speaking conversationally, and that of course greatly adds to what we are talking about. There is conversational ministry in which we are engaged now, as well as discoursing ministry, which our brother will take on this evening when he gives an address. But now we are engaged conversationally, which is very important; I do not know of any other ministry in the last days that is so effective as conversational ministry.

R.W.S. While we are free and happy to speak, we must not be so active as to hinder the Spirit from bringing out what He has in mind.

A.N.W. How we have proved, have we not, what gainers we are by accepting a lead in such a conversational meeting as this!

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J.T. Another thing we have to consider in this matter of ministry is that we have to take account of gift. It is said of the Lord that "having ascended up on high, he has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men" (Ephesians 4:8). Really the question of gifts has to come in; not that one would be occupied with any ability that any one of us may have, but there is such a thing as gift, and gift is a question of power, of gifts given unto men, the power descending from God to men. The wonderful fact is that the Lord Jesus is gone beyond all the heavens in order, that the gifts should come thence, which is one of the most remarkable statements that can be made, that He is beyond all the heavens, and the gifts are from there.

A.R. It says in Acts 20 that they continued till the break of day, so that the authority remains right on to the end. Would that be right?

J.T. Quite so. Will you read the passage where the boy is brought up alive, recovered, and they were not a little comforted?

A.R. "And having gone up, and having broken the bread, and eaten, and having long spoken until daybreak, so he went away".

J.T. "Long spoken", conversationally, a good deal of instructive conversational ministry, and then he went away. The matter is settled. In a case like this we have three days' meetings but we must have a settlement and a result reached in the end. The question is, Do we reach an end? That is the thing to look out for.

Ques. How do our sisters contribute to the conversational meetings that we have?

J.T. They are not supposed to, except in a prayerful attitude. They are to learn in silence; silence is real matter. It is a positive thing in sisters, it is not a negative thing, that they are to learn in silence.

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I wonder whether the sisters do learn in silence? What have you to say about this?

Rem. I think that is very good. It shows the power that there is amongst us that sisters can learn in silence.

J.T. It is not a negative silence; the sisters are not negative; they are positive in their inward parts, in their prayers, in the attitude of their minds and feelings. They are doing something, they are carrying on, they are really taking part with us in that sense.

Ques. Does it not show the power of the Spirit amongst us to teach them in silence?

J.T. Quite so; and yet we have to make allowance for the word 'silence' which the apostle uses.

B.W. They should ask questions at home showing that they are alive.

J.T. That is good too.

F.N.W. Would the positive side of that inward feature in the sisters be seen where Peter speaks about the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible ornament of a meek and quiet spirit?

J.T. Quite so, the hidden man of the heart.

Ques. Do not the sisters contribute to our meetings in spirit?

J.T. They certainly do. Where should we be if they did not? That is what led up to the suggestion last year in Bristol that the sisters should attend our large meetings for ministry. They are here today, a goodly number of them.

V.C.L. So that the teaching that goes on after the blessings is not a question of male or female exactly, is it? It is a question of disciples being taught.

J.T. Quite so, they are being instructed in a wonderful way, and instructed positively so that they are going to become certain things. How many

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features are to be seen in the disciples here? About nine, I think; and what do they all mean? See the different things that are mentioned, and what they are to become -- these listeners on the mountain!

V.C.L. As these 'Blesseds' were read today, I was just wondering as to whether any of these features were true of oneself -- to what extent they were a characteristic feature of oneself. Because they should be in display in some way, should they not?

J.T. Quite so; there are nine Blesseds here, beginning with verse 3, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens. Blessed they that mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed they who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. Blessed the merciful, for they shall find mercy. Blessed the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed the peace-makers, for they shall be called sons of God. Blessed they who are persecuted on account of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens. Blessed are ye when they may reproach and persecute you, and say every wicked thing against you, lying, for my sake. Rejoice and exult, for your reward is great in the heavens; for thus have they persecuted the prophets who were before you" Notice that "they" may be either male or female; they are learners, they are becoming something as listening to Christ. We shall have to discern for ourselves, each one of us, who the persons are that are in mind, who the "ye" may be, whether it is both brothers and sisters. I think that is the idea of the "ye".

A.N.W. You used the term 'abstract', I think, in regard of these first eight. Would the Lord have in mind in turning to the "ye" in the ninth to place it concretely before them?

J.T. Just so. It brings it home very distinctly to them because of the question of persecution.

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J.H.P. This first one, "the poor in spirit", would much suggest that our sisters were in that matter, would it not?

J.T. Exactly.

J.H.P. Would it speak of the inwardness that you were mentioning earlier?

J.T. Just so; we brought forward David as an example of inwardness; he gathered himself together, so to say. So we have the idea of calling upon all that is within us; it is what is inside. Are we calling upon it?

J.H.T. In all these instances it is, you might say, a spiritual state of mind which is blessed.

Ques. In the reward in verse 12 where it says, "Rejoice and exult, for your reward is great in the heavens", is there an allusion to the Spirit in view of what Peter says in his epistle, that "the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you" (1 Peter 4:14), that is, upon those that are in reproach?

J.T. Yes. So that there is much to suggest the possibility of the sisters coming into all these things.

A.R. So the words "ye are" would include all the saints, would it not? It says in verses 13 and 14, "Ye are the salt of the earth", and, "Ye are the light of the world". I suppose that is really what the saints are today.

J.T. Quite so.

L.L.P. Would you say that the grace of Christ is disclosed in the way these proposals are set out, in order that the sisters might have their part in the blessing?

J.T. I would.

F.J.F. Would the fat of the offering suggest the inwardness, the power that is there, that is pleasing to God? Is this like fat in the saints?

J.T. These nine things are clearly positive in their bearing, they are constitutional, I would say, that is, as building us up as believers. We are coming into

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things. These nine things refer to what we come into as learning from the Lord Jesus: "Learn from me", He says elsewhere, "Learn from me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest to your souls" (Matthew 11:29).

L.W. Why does the Lord use the expression, 'the kingdom of the heavens' so often in this chapter, rather than 'the kingdom of God'? Later on He uses the latter but not here.

J.T. The kingdom of God is in a sense what we call moral, just moral. The kingdom of the heavens is referring to elevation, to moral elevation. The significance of the term, the kingdom of God, is that it is the moral side of the kingdom, whereas the kingdom of the heavens is the elevated side, which is important too; we cannot say that the elevated side is not moral, but the point is not that, but that it is elevation.

A.N.W. I thought perhaps Romans would help there, in that the kingdom of God is in relation to the Spirit, whereas the kingdom of the heavens is in relation to the King in heaven.

J.T. That is true, too. I am sure that is good.

L.W. And later on in chapter 6:33 of this same book the Lord says, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness", which stands in relation to what is moral too.

J.T. The distinction between what is moral and what is elevated is perfectly clear to me; that the moral side is, as it were, the level of things here below, whereas the elevated side is what is upward, what is uplifted. The word 'heaven' has the significance of what is uplifted, it suggests lifted-up things; the kingdom of the heavens has that character, whereas the kingdom of God is on the level of the earth here, and it has therefore the moral idea.

J.H.P. I was thinking of this expression, the kingdom of the heavens, as touching on two of the

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matters that you alluded to this morning; the thought of the king, David the king, and then the heavenly side that you spoke of at the end, both these matters entering into this expression.

J.T. That is what we come to, "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".

G.H. The thought of the kingdom of the heavens would I suppose be in keeping with the thought of the mountains mentioned in this gospel, the elevated thought?

J.T. That is the idea running right through the book, the idea of mountains; the last one is at Galilee where the disciples are to meet the Lord.

A.R. Why does the Lord bring in the idea of the heavenly Father so much in these few chapters in Matthew?

J.T. "Our Father which art in heaven", it says, "Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread" (Matthew 6:9 - 11). All that is just the elevated side; it is drawn away from the level of the earth where man is, where man's responsibility especially is.

J.H.T. Would you say a little more on verse 9, about the peace-makers being called sons of God? Is it a gift, being a peace-maker?

J.T. It shows how nearly we come to the idea of sonship. We read in the epistle to the Hebrews of the Father bringing many sons to glory, and we can see the nearness to it here, the proximity to it in the makers of peace; they are very near to glory, they are making for glory, "Blessed the peace-makers".

R.W.S. Do these principles buttress the assembly? And if we are in the assembly in a weak way, would it be because we do not go through these chapters?

J.T. That is right. The book is consecutive, I would say; it is a consecutive instruction, and you cannot transpose the chapters. Chapter 5 is the

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legislative chapter where we learn things from the Lord on high, from His own mouth on high. We are being made ready for the assembly in this fifth chapter.

E.A.L. It says in verse 17 of chapter 4, "From that time began Jesus to preach and to say, Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn nigh". Repentance there is the prerequisite for taking on these blessings, is it not? It is progressive in that sense.

J.T. Just so, leading up to chapter 5; that is to say, the fact that chapter 4 precedes the fifth means that it must have some bearing on the fifth.

V.C.L. Is this at all akin to the truth brought out in Romans? The book of Romans ends with the suggestion of the mystery; and here in chapter 5 there are suggestions of the wonderful truth of the whole assembly just hidden away, as it were, in what the Lord says. Is it therefore a question of educating personnel?

J.T. Very good; Romans touches on the mystery at the end but the touching on it does not make the mystery. You have to go to Ephesians for the mystery, we have to put things in their place. If we want to get the mystery, as the Lord Jesus has it in mind, which He has given over to Paul and which is just touched in Romans, we have to go to Ephesians for it; that is where we get it. The Bible is one whole, it is the great teaching book, and we have to learn from it and know where to place things.

W.W.M. Do you think that the Lord in pronouncing these blessings, suggests that they are blessings as they become true in us? "Blessed are they ..."; it is supposed to have the subjective effect upon us.

J.T. Just so, and we are capable of it; the Lord indicates that. He went up on high and the disciples came to Him; they are worthy to be listeners; they

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are worthy of the discourse that He is making; they have come up; it takes some energy to come up a mountain and learning needs energy. It costs you something.

Rem. It is like coming to these meetings.

J.T. Exactly, just like coming to these meetings, if we are not coming for holiday purposes.

C.H.H. Would John's teaching underlie this for a moral foundation? It says in John 3:5, "Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". That seems to be the foundation before we reach the kingdom of the heavens.

J.T. That is good. We had recently a very important line of thought as to John's ministry, and that is the abstract idea. It was said that it is the one thing the brethren need at the present time; that what we all need is to come to the idea of what is abstract. And John is the great teacher of it. You have to come to what is abstract to get the real truth of the heavenly side of things, because it makes for what is constitutionally heaven, and that we are fit for it.

R.P. Would you illustrate a little what you mean by coming to what is abstract?

J.T. We have to tax our understanding of words, not that I am going to ask you to make much of your dictionary, but we all need to come to the idea of what is abstract. We are not coming to the truth if we do not; we shall surely edge away from the truth unless we hold to the abstract.

L.L.P. Would you say that all these nine proposals look at us as in responsibility?

J.T. Quite so. Look what is being built up! The Lord is here taking on a great matter; it is a legislative matter, as we have been saying, and if we keep to that I think we shall get something. And when we say that it cost something for the disciples

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to go up on to the mountain, it cost the Lord something too; not because He is the Lord, for we are dealing with divine Persons and They have great capabilities; but at the same time it cost the Lord something to bring out these things; let us not forget that!

F.N.W. Since you made that remark in New York about the abstract, I was further helped by something you said many years ago: it was that you always hold yourself in the light of God's thoughts as to you. These are my words, but it is in substance, I think, what you said. Because if you do so, when you fail you are exercised, and that exercise leads to soul progress. Is that right?

J.T. Quite so; and John helps on that line: he says, "We know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is", not as He was, but as He is (1 John 3:2). That is what I call abstract in the full sense of the word.

Ques. Would you tell us more about the first blessing, "Blessed are the poor in spirit"? What kind of person does that refer to? I wondered if it meant humble and lowly?

J.T. I would rather let it stand as it is, let the word have its own place, the word 'poor'.

J.W.B. Does it bear by contrast on the spirit of the present age when men are marked by standing for their rights? Is it the opposite of being self-assertive?

J.T. And pretending to be rich when they are not. The Lord says as to the Laodicean condition, "and knowest not that thou art ... the miserable, and poor" (Revelation 3:17). We need just to use the word given, and to learn the meaning of the word in its given setting. And here it is 'poor in spirit'; you can see it is entirely different from what is in the Lord's mind in speaking to Laodicea.

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F.J.F. It says of Him in Isaiah 53 that there was no lordliness in Him.

J.T. Very good; we know that the Lord was not characterised by pretension or lordliness here in this world.

F.J.F. He was not marked by human pretension, He was poor in spirit.

J.T. The Lord was that; the Lord was fully that. So Psalm 41 says, "Blessed is he that understandeth the poor"; that is Christ. We have to learn the idea of poor in Christ in that sense.

A.R. I should like to ask more about the matter of abstract. A large part of the book of Ephesians bears on what is abstract, does it not? How would you work that out?

J.T. According to the meaning of the word.

A.R. It says that God has "raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6).

J.T. Quite so; but it is more particularly to be learned in John's epistles. They are the great epistles for abstract ideas. "We know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is". We have to learn that the thing is abstract because we are not that now; it is when we shall see Him as He is.

R.P. Is it your thought that we should dwell on what is abstract?

J.T. Quite so, and that Scripture is the place to learn the meaning of the word. The Scriptures are so full and so instructive that they do not leave us adrift, as it were. The Spirit of God is immediately at our hand to help us; He is near to us, "The Lord is near" (Philippians 4:5). And you will soon learn, if you wait on the Lord, that "The Lord is near".

Ques. Are you urging that our being "poor in spirit" begins with God according to new birth? John says in the epistle that "Whoever has been

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begotten of God does not practise sin, because his seed abides in him, and he cannot sin" (1 John 3:9).

J.T. I should like everybody to get hold of that at this reading; that is the idea of abstract.

E.A.L. In Ephesians we see the assembly in an abstract way perfectly, do we not? I mean in the expression, "that he might present the assembly to himself glorious" (Ephesians 5:27).

J.T. Do you mean the idea of abstract is presented in Ephesians perfectly?

E.A.L. The assembly is always presented in that way, as being perfect.

J.T. No, not always; sometimes it is presented anticipatively; the epistle to the Ephesians is largely anticipative truth. We have to learn the truth and see if it is the truth. It is an anticipative idea there, Ephesians is largely that. It is a question of such a statement as that we are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenly places. That is anticipative truth, you see. One thing we have to learn this afternoon I believe, is the idea of anticipative truth; that is Ephesians.

R.W.S. So we come to a time when we can stand the school of Tyrannus. Paul reasoned in connection with the kingdom for three months and then he came to the school of Tyrannus. Can we not stand it now to be adjusted, any one of us? Because the time is urgent, we have not much time to go, and yet we have so much to learn.

F.J.F. Would you say that the abstract is what is abidingly true?

J.T. It is better to get the use of the word 'abstract', I mean as applied to ourselves. It would not refer to Christ at all; it would apply to the way things are worked out in us believers.

J.W.B. Does 'abstract' refer to what is in the mind of God for the saints and in a sense is true now?

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J.T. In a sense it is true now, of course; you have it now, in a sense. Otherwise it would not be abstract; but it is abstract. That is to say, it is something that is seen in Christ actually but applied to us now because of certain conditions that God has brought about as in new birth. The new birth is a thing that works out what is abstract.

J.W.B. It will finally be seen actually in the saints, will it not?

J.T. Well, it is worked out in them.

F.H.L. John says to the young men, "Ye have overcome the wicked one" (1 John 2:14). Is that not in type like Christ?

J.T. That is right; "Ye have", it is done already; it is a thing done.

F.N.W. In connection with what we enter into in our spirits in the assembly service, would you say that 'anticipative' is a good word to use there rather than 'abstract'?

J.T. I think so, yes. We can regard it as true in a certain sense, because He has raised us up together and has made us to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. That is an anticipative thought, but it can only be so because of the presence of the Spirit here on earth; you could not speak of it otherwise in that way.

A.C.W. Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus was occupied with the Lord Himself, and in John 12 she could move intelligently spiritually, knowing what to do. Could we say that in regard to Mary she was occupied with perfection in the Lord Himself, she appreciated Him? Would John 12 prove that she had taken it on? She moved there in an intelligent way.

J.T. So that we can apply that to ourselves; we are abstracted by the presence of the Lord, sitting at His feet and hearing His word. It is predicated of you that you are abstracted there; but then it

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will pass away if you are not careful, so that it is not fully abstract, it is not fully perfected. But here we have something that is said to be perfected; it says, "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect". I mean to say that is anticipative too, but it is actually true; the Lord is concentrating on that thought. "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".

J.H.P. Does not this chapter really lead up to that sentence that you have just read? There seems to be a kind of progressiveness. I was thinking of these thoughts -- "The salt of the earth", and "the light of the world", and then "a city situated on the top of a mountain", and then "a lamp"; they seem to lead up to this great result. Would that be right?

J.T. We might as well touch on that a little now. The passage from verse 43 reads: "Ye have heard that it has been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who insult you and persecute you, that ye may be the sons of your Father who is in the heavens; for he makes his sun rise on evil and good, and sends rain on just and unjust. For if ye should love those who love you, what reward have ye? Do not also the tax-gatherers the same? And if ye should salute your brethren only, what do ye extraordinary? Do not also the Gentiles the same? Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".

I think we might well rest on that now and see how the result that we are dealing with is to work out in us. And I would just add that we have to take account of the Lord's saying things and how He says them in Spirit. He has a spiritual way of saying them. For instance, He says that if a person says, 'Come with me a mile', you are to go with him two. But the man might not want you to go with

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him two. But you see we have to learn how language is used, how language can be used to enforce the truth. It is a very rare thing to get such usage as that. "And whoever will compel thee to go one mile, go with him two".

Now we must say the Lord has a right to speak in that way, because anyone can see that the man might not want to go at all. And we cannot be sure that the man who asked him wanted him to go two miles; he only asked him to go one mile. But the Lord has that way of speaking and you can see the force of it. It is just to bring out the use of language in Scripture so that we can use it rightly.

R.P. Would you say that Stephen at the end of his life would be an example of one who is perfect even as his Father in heaven is perfect? At the end you might say that he takes account of what is abstract, "Jesus standing at the right hand of God" (Acts 7:55). I was wondering if you would get there the idea of what is abstract?

J.T. "He saw ... Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, Lo, I behold ... the Son of man standing at the right hand of God". The heavens were opened to him. You have all these things to take into account, that the heavens are opened at this particular time to a man here on earth. He was going to heaven himself; but he was going to be martyred.

R.W.S. Would you help us with that word 'perfect'? "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect". What does it mean, please?

J.T. Well, there must be some meaning to it, surely, that what applies to God applies to us. And how can it apply to us? We have to see how it can, and what language we can use and use rightly to say these things ourselves.

Ques. Is love connected with it? This passage you read begins with love, "Love your enemies".

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J.T. Well, quite so.

A.N.W. And impartiality? It looks as though impartiality would have something to do with it, to act the same toward an evil person as toward a good. And it rains on the just and the unjust.

J.T. That is a striking truth; it is very important to have just the same rain coming on them that we have on us, showing that God is saying, 'I am acting in mercy toward My creature still, and that is the way I am doing it; and you should learn how to do it, and be perfect in doing it'.

Rem. James tells us what a perfect man is, "If any one offend not in word" (James 3:2).

J.T. "He is a perfect man", quite so, "able to bridle the whole body too".

C.H.H. 1 Corinthians 14:20 speaks about "grown men". Does not that have a connection with 'perfect'?

J.T. And so in Hebrews 5:14, it says that "solid food belongs to full-grown men".

C.H.H. And in Philippians 3:15 too, "As many therefore as are perfect", and then the note to that says, 'or full-grown', and refers you to Corinthians where they are to be babes as to malice, but in minds to be full-grown men.

J.T. That is the idea; that is very good.

J.H.P. I was wondering if this word 'perfect' at the end of Matthew 5 would not bring in all these inward thoughts that we have been dwelling on this afternoon all through the chapter; the thought of inwardness you mentioned at the beginning as leading up to this end here?

J.T. So the following chapters, the sixth and seventh, deal with the whole matter, and that leads up to something else that we still have before us in chapter 10. God willing, the first reading tomorrow will be chapter 10, and will bring up what apostleship

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is in the disciples, so that a list of their names is given in that chapter.

F.J.F. Will all these things be seen in perfection in the heavenly city?

J.T. How could we have the heavenly city without them? It is a heavenly thing; we must hold to that. For instance, Peter says, "According to his promise, we wait for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13). We must have that, and we must have the idea of what is abstract to get to that; we must have it. It is a great missing thought if we do not have the idea of what is abstract in getting to that.

B.W. Is what is abstract now anticipative for us too? Could we use both words?

J.T. Just so. It is a question of the use of language. As I was saying, the Lord uses language and we are entitled to use it, too, as He uses it. I think it would help us all to realise that we have a perfect Model in the Lord in the way He did things. The beatitudes as they are called -- although I do not care for the word -- mean just that. "The heaven and the earth shall pass away", the Lord says, "but my words shall in no wise pass away" (Luke 21:33).

C.H.H. So this would have no application to the world to come, would it? It is what is actual now. The injunctions in this chapter and chapters 6 and 7 will have no force at all in the millennium. Is it not what is practicable now? There will be no persecution and that kind of thing in the millennium.

J.T. Just so, but then there are other things besides persecution in the chapter. The chapter teaches perfection in what we are talking about. "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect".

W.W.M. Do you think the desire of the Lord in His teaching here is to set before them that He wants

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them to act like God in this world? Is that the point?

J.T. It is; and the Lord is leading up to perfection, of course; He says that. And we must remember He is leading up to the assembly; He has that in His mind in all that He is saying, to speak about the assembly, because Matthew is the great assembly gospel.

E.A.L. I wanted to ask about Ephesians 5:27, "that he might present the assembly to himself glorious, having no spot, or wrinkle, or any of such things; but that it might be holy and blameless". That is perfection, is it not?

J.T. Well, it is an end in view in the Lord's mind. But we have not reached that end yet in Ephesians.

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MATTHEW'S GOSPEL IN VIEW OF THE ASSEMBLY (3)

Matthew 9:27 - 31, 10:1 - 15, 41,42

J.T. It is mainly in mind, in proposing these verses, to deal with apostleship as it is seen in Matthew; but the verses in chapter 9 are especially suggested because they bear on the idea of faith. It says in verse 27, "And as Jesus passed on thence, two blind men followed him, crying and saying, Have mercy on us, Son of David. And when he was come to the house, the blind men came to him. And Jesus says to them, Do ye believe ... ?" This is what I wanted to bring to the attention of the brethren: "Do ye believe that I am able to do this? They say to him, Yea, Lord". That is the reason why the verses were read in chapter 9, as bearing on chapter 10. And then we should notice in chapter 10:41,42, the reference to relative values, that is to say what a prophet is, what a righteous man is, and so on. I am saying all this so that the brethren will understand what is in mind.

J.H.P. Why does faith come in at that point in chapter 9?

J.T. I think in view of apostleship, that is, the dispensation is to be in faith; as Paul says, "God's dispensation, which is in faith" (1 Timothy 1:4). Things are to be in faith, they are not simply to be acquired in colleges and the like, but it is a question of faith. Of course there must be ability divinely given, but still it is a question of faith, because a person may be very able as to natural ability and yet have no faith and therefore deny the truth of the dispensation.

Ques. Is that what marked Matthew when he left his tax office to follow the Lord?

J.T. Just so. He was a tax-gatherer, meaning that he was a man who knew how to make money.

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So that apostleship in christianity is not a money-making matter or anything of the kind; it is a question of men being diverted from all that and being in faith. That is what Matthew is dealing with.

C.F.E. Is the gospel received by the individual in faith?

J.T. Well, quite so; but it is a question of what is meant by the passage, "Faith then is by a report, but the report by God's word" (Romans 10:17). It is a question of the ears; we had it yesterday, and we want to open that up a little bit as to its bearing on the present dispensation; that it is not a question of colleges and all that on which so-called christianity is built up; it is a question of what is in faith.

A.J.E.W. One of the outstanding features connected with Timothy as Paul speaks of him was unfeigned faith that had been in his mother and his grandmother also. Does that fit in?

J.T. Just so, showing that it was a household matter and it had come down to him. It is a question of how children are to be brought up in view of the testimony, that the mother and the grandmother, as it were, would take them as children and inculcate the truth of the gospel into their hearts and thus bring them up in the truth; that is the point. There are a lot of young here today, very young ones, some of them, and the point is to get them into faith, to get all of us into faith; it is the dispensation of faith as we have already remarked.

J.H.P. I was thinking what a testing word this is, "According to your faith, be it unto you".

J.T. That is why I thought of reading this section in chapter 9; it has such a great place in the testimony of the gospel, this very chapter.

J.H.P. Would that come down to families and localities?

J.T. I think so, because christianity is intended to be built up on faith, but it was to be in relation

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to households; the word in Acts 16:31, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house".

C.H.H. Does the word in 1 Timothy 1:4 bear on it? "Nor to turn their minds to fables and interminable genealogies, which bring questionings rather than further God's dispensation, which is in faith".

J.T. "Which is in faith"; just so, that is where chapter 9 bears on chapter 10.

A.B.P. Would that link on with the word in Hebrews 11:6, "But without faith it is impossible to please him. For he that draws near to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them who seek him out"?

J.T. It would.

L.L.P. Would you say that Hebrews 11 is especially set for the building up of the assembly, as having in it the thought of faith perhaps more than any other chapter?

J.T. That is, the idea of the chapter is faith; it is running right through. It begins faith's exercises in verse 3: "By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God".

A.R. Is there something important in the fact that there are two blind men in Matthew instead of one? I was wondering if it really has in mind the assembly, of which it says, "If two of you shall agree" (Matthew 18:19).

J.T. Just so, that is one great idea that comes into the truth, two instead of one.

F.H.L. And it is in connection with getting light, is it not, the same as with the two in chapter 20? It is a question of getting their eyes opened. "And lo, two blind men, sitting by the wayside, having heard that Jesus was passing by, cried out saying, Have mercy on us, Lord, Son of David" (verse 30). The Lord does not challenge them as to their faith there, perhaps because they call Him "Lord", but

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I was thinking in both cases of the two who were blind and needed the light.

J.T. Here the thought that is stressed is faith in the two. It is said, "As Jesus passed on thence, two blind men followed him". But they were too talkative, as we see when we come on down to the end of the paragraph; it says in verse 31, "But they, when they were gone out, spread his name abroad in all that land". But the Lord had charged them, "See, let no man know it". That is, it is not a question of publicity, making a show of the thing, but of the secret power of faith; it is a question of faith, that we believe in what the Lord states, that He is able to do it.

J.H.P. Is there a suggestion there that the mystery and hiding would be connected with this great matter of faith? I was thinking that the Lord charged them sharply, "See, let no man know it"; and although that applied to this particular incident, yet I was wondering whether the whole thought of the mystery and what is hidden as developed by Paul would not be connected closely with this matter of faith?

J.T. Very good, I would say that fully, it is Paul's way of teaching; because he is really the leading man in christianity, whatever we may say as to the others. He is the man to whom the mystery is committed and that is the truth; things were committed to Paul.

A.B.P. Are we to regard faith as God's sovereign gift? Would there be some condition in the believer which vindicates God in giving faith?

J.T. That is right.

F.J.F. Is faith to be always present in our gatherings?

J.T. That is the idea, that is why we are here today. Christianity involves faith; if it is not in faith it is nothing, it is just a matter of what is in the seminaries and the like. But christianity is in

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faith. As we said before, it is "God's dispensation, which is in faith". There is absolutely nothing else if there is not that.

C.H.H. Would you say that faith is preceded by repentance -- "repentance towards God, and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21)? I was wondering whether the preaching of the word as to the goodness of God would first of all lead men to repentance, and then God gives His gift of faith?

J.T. It is the goodness of God, and that is what we are aiming at; we do not want to leave this point of faith in chapter 9. We are dealing with these two men and they were too talkative; they had too much to say instead of abiding by what the Lord had said, that they were not to say anything. "Jesus charged them sharply, saying, See, let no man know it". That is to say the thing is to be held in a secret way, not making a special show of it. The many churches would speak of all that sort of thing, which entirely sets aside the idea of christianity.

J.F. Is that an unwarranted exposure of a treasure that the Lord had given to these men, of something that was secret with the Lord?

J.T. Quite so; it ought to have been a secret matter that was held in power; it is a question of christianity in power.

Ques. Is that what Paul had in mind in Colossians 3:3,4? "For ye have died, and your life is hid with the Christ in God. When the Christ is manifested who is our life, then shall ye also be manifested with him in glory". We have to wait till then for the manifestation. Is that right?

J.T. "When the Christ is manifested". What is your point in that, please?

Rem. My point was that the Lord had enjoined these men to say nothing; and I thought Paul's point in Colossians was the same, that some were

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making a vain show of things whereas the word is, "For ye have died, and your life is hid".

J.T. It is the word 'hid'. The word 'hid' is a leading word in Colossians: "your life is hid with the Christ in God". It is the very opposite to the show that is often made in connection with the truth.

A.N.W. You mentioned the matter of testimony in connection with this. Is the testimony in what the men are rather than in what they say?

J.T. There is testimony because the thing happened; the thing happened to them. The Lord put it to them on those lines, that they must believe that it is to happen. He says to them, "Do ye believe that I am able to do this? They say to him, Yea, Lord". Then He touched their eyes. That is the ground on which the thing is; they believed in the power, although they had too much to say afterwards. But they believed in the power, and the evidence was that their eyes were opened. The thing was done.

W.W.M. Yesterday you were referring to Romans 10:17 where it says that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". It says of Cornelius and those that were with him in the house that "the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were hearing the word" (Acts 10:44). Peter in referring to it in Acts 15 says, "And the heart-knowing God bore them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit as to us also ... having purified their hearts by faith". So that faith coming by hearing would prove that they had some faith there in Cornelius' house, had they not?

J.T. Evidently; so that it is a question of power; that is the thing. The Lord's becoming a Man was to bring out the power that was in Him, that He was able to do things. And that is the general principle, that a man is able to do things; it is not what a man says; it is what he is able to do. That is what

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Matthew would bring out, and indeed we have the same feature in all the gospels.

Ques. In chapter 9:2, it says, "And Jesus, seeing their faith ..." Does that work out today in our dispensation, that others can be blessed through the faith of those that have it?

J.T. Just so, He saw their faith; it is the same in Mark, that He acted when He saw their faith.

Ques. How is it possible today for somebody to be blessed through the faith that may be, for instance, in me?

J.T. Surely it may be; many a child has been blessed through the faith of his father. We should bring up our children in faith. We bring them up in the knowledge of the word of God, but it is in view of each having faith himself. We bring up our children in view of their having faith, of their taking on things vitally. With Timotheus it was a question of the faith of his mother and grandmother. They brought him up on the word, that is, in the light of the Scriptures. Then there was development in Timotheus, that was the great fruit of it.

Ques. So we can rely on that today?

J.T. Certainly; therefore we bring up our children in faith. It is of immense moment that we should bring our children to the meetings; the small and great, bring them to the meetings. Let them hear what is said and they will gradually come into the idea of faith.

Ques. Can we extend the idea, for instance, to the union matter? The brethren have faith that God will come in. One brother who is in the union may not have that faith; but do you not think it could be extended in that way?

J.T. Very good. We have such as those in New York and it is the very thing that is exercising us. One brother gave up as soon as he was told he could

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not be employed any longer on the former basis; he just said nothing, whereas he should have gone to the department head and the persons who were employing him, and laid the matter of the truth before them. Because God will use all that if we are faithful. The matter should be laid before the persons who are responsible; not before the union; that is not responsible; it is the employer that is responsible. And God will take account of that. So we bring our children up on those lines. They go to school and they watch and listen. Their parents tell them, 'Do not listen to what they are talking about in the school that is contrary to Scripture. You listen to the truth!' And their parents give them the truth at home, where they live, where they are brought up. That is the real position in the household, because christianity is in relation to the household.

B.W. Would the scripture in John's epistle fit in, where it says, "For all that has been begotten of God gets the victory over the world; and this is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith" (1 John 5:4)?

J.T. "Our faith", just so; "this is the victory which has gotten the victory ... our faith". Victory lies in the faith that we have, it is "our faith", mark you; not simply 'faith', but "our faith", that is, believers' faith. As I was saying, it is what is seen in the households of the saints; Acts 16 therefore is one of the leading chapters in that book. Lydia is there and it is a question of all that entered into the moment -- how the truth worked out in Europe, as I might say. It was a question of what was in Europe.

A.B.P. Would there be a practical working out of that in the word the jailor received, "Thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house"? That would be light from God upon which he would act in faith.

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J.T. It was himself first, "thou and thy house"; "thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house". The 'thou' is the leading word there; it is the individual himself and then his family.

A.B.P. It may be possible for some years to intervene before the house is actually brought in under that statement, but faith would hold to it tenaciously.

J.T. That is right. And then it says, "He laid the table for them", the table came into it; that is to say it is a household matter where there is bounty, where there is liberality, where there is hospitality; "he laid the table for them".

A.N.W. And the whole household rejoiced; it is an adverb there meaning they rejoiced householdly.

L.L.P. Would you say that if this question of faith is genuine, it reaches out to the house itself? Lydia devoted her house to the service of Paul.

J.T. Just so; she says, "If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house", and they did it. And later when they were leaving Philippi they came to Lydia again. It says that Paul came to Lydia, to her; not to her house but to her.

D.Macd. It says in Hebrews 11 that "Moses ... was hid three months by his parents" -- 'hid'. Are we to hide our children? I was just thinking that perhaps we may bring our children up too much for this world instead of hiding them.

J.T. Quite so. There are too many professional men, doctors and others, among us. Pardon me for referring to them, but in training the children never mind the profession, never mind the distinction, never mind the title; just train them to be able to rightly earn their living and to be christians, to be real christians.

D.Macd. In connection with that, it says of Peter and John that they were unlettered and uninstructed men.

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J.T. That is good, unlettered and uninstructed; but they were doing the work nevertheless, the power was there.

F.J.F. In connection with what you were speaking of yesterday, anticipation, the power to anticipate, is that not always on the ground of faith, that through faith we can anticipate what is really future? By the Spirit's power, of course.

J.T. Well, quite; of course, faith is cumulative, leading on to great results; really we are coming on to the millennium. But in the meantime we are in the assembly time, and it is a matter of finding out what is current and who belongs to the assembly, and to get the features of the assembly; that is the thing that enters into Matthew, because Matthew is the great assembly gospel.

C.H.H. Is there any distinction between "the faith" and what may be individual? I was thinking of Jude 1:3, "contend earnestly for the faith", and then again there were those who denied "the faith".

J.T. That is so; and then there is "our faith" as well.

F.H.L. The word to Timothy is "holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience" (1 Timothy 3:9). That would be a much broader thought, would it?

J.T. Just so; that is an added thought.

T.N.W. The last clause of Romans 14 is, "whatever is not of faith is sin". Is that not a very broad statement?

J.T. A very broad statement, showing that we are shut up to faith in everything; it is "God's dispensation, which is in faith" (1 Timothy 1:4). We are shut up to that. It is an immense thing to have before us all the time, and for our children especially, because they have to go to school and into all that sort of thing; it is an immense thing to save them from the influence of infidelity in the schools. They carry

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faith into the schools and know how to behave themselves as having faith and belonging to households who are "in faith", because the households are involved in that.

L.L.P. Scripture says that faith is the gift of God; but what you have mainly before you now is that we are responsible, man is responsible, the onus is on men as to having faith?

A.N.W. When the Lord puts it this way, "According to your faith", He would certainly seem to stimulate faith.

J.T. The onus is on the person who is getting the benefit, and the Lord is the One through whom the benefit has come.

A.B.P. You have been referring to the young people, and I feel it is a very important subject. Should not our young people, as having some aim in life before them, be concerned that they have a word from God about it, so that what they propose can be either taken on or turned aside in faith, whichever is His mind? I feel that we sometimes make the thought of faith a very general idea, but does it not enter into the detail of our lives with a distinct word from God?

J.T. A distinct word from God; I am just wondering about the full bearing of that as you are dealing with it.

A.B.P. Well, Abram said, "How shall I know?" after God had spoken to him; and then God put him through the experience in Genesis 15, which seems to suggest the inward character of the word of God in us; that it is not merely -- and I say that guardedly -- not merely a generalised idea of faith, but there is some word to which we can pin our faith which has a direct bearing upon us individually.

J.T. Abram said to Jehovah, "How shall I know ... ?" and then God prescribed to him what

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he was to do, the different creatures that he was to provide, and that I think is a thing not to be omitted. If you will enlarge on that perhaps you will help us. He prescribes to Abram what he is to do. He said, "How shall I know ... ?", and God says, I will tell you, and He tells him certain things to do, that he is to provide certain creatures in a certain sacrificial sense, and he did it. Genesis 15 is a very significant chapter, and it bears on all that we are talking about.

A.B.P. There were female and male animals and it seems to me that the idea of what is subjectively wrought out in us has prominence there; and the fact that the lamp passed between those pieces seems to suggest the inward character of the word in our souls. I wondered if it did not link with Hebrews 4 where we are told that the word of God divides between the thoughts and the intents of the heart, and between soul and spirit, and between joints and marrow? It is not just a generalising of detail but things that have a direct bearing upon us. God's word is said to be a light to our path, but then it is also a lamp to our feet, as though we can have a word for each step. Would that be right?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Faith is in a Person, is it not? Is not our faith in a Person, in God?

J.T. It is in a Person, but faith is to be held by itself too. It is sometimes said to be "our faith", and then "faith", and then "the faith". So it depends upon what you are dealing with and what word you use.

L.W. Paul used the expression, "the ... spirit of faith", in 2 Corinthians 4:13.

J.T. Just so, a very good expression too.

C.H.H. As to these two men in Matthew 9 declaring the matter after they had been told to keep

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it quiet, would the proper course have been according to James to show forth their faith by their works?

J.T. Just so, that they were believers, because that was the point. "Do ye believe that I am able?" the Lord had said. They were to show that they were believers in the Lord's ability; that was the idea; that is the foundation of christianity.

C.H.H. Is not that the course for us as we have the revelation of God in Christ, that we are to walk in it? As John says, "walking in the truth" (3 John 1:4), that the testimony is to be in that rather than in what we say.

Rem. In chapter 8 the Lord challenges the disciples: He says, "Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith?" in connection with the storm. It says, "Behold, the water became very agitated on the sea, so that the ship was covered by the waves; but he slept. And the disciples came and awoke him, saying, Lord save: we perish. And he says to them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith?"

J.T. So that it is a question of having faith, even if it is only a little; it would be effective for salvation. But we have the idea of great faith too: the Lord says, "Not even in Israel have I found so great faith" (Matthew 8:10). There is the idea of great faith and little faith, but whether it be the one or the other, the element is there; it is the real gold in the element, that is, faith.

C.H.H. You were suggesting that Matthew is leading up progressively. Is what you are saying now leading on to the appointment of these twelve, giving them power?

J.T. Just so; the time has come for that now in chapter 10. But chapter 9 is so important as to faith; that is why we stayed there. But we can now readily go on in simplicity and liberty to the idea of the apostles' service, of the appointment of the apostles by the Lord Himself in Matthew 10.

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C.H.H. I was thinking of the great necessity for the moral background that is seen in Matthew if we are to be commissioned for service.

J.T. To be commissioned. Which of any one of us has a commission at all? And if we have, where is the evidence of it? That is what I would say in addition to what you have said, that if any one of us has been commissioned there must be some evidence of it, some fruit from it. And where is it? We have already alluded to the number amongst us who are old; you are amongst them and I am, and several others amongst us. Well, where is the fruit of it? I am not saying that I have not got any or that you have not; nor am I saying that it is not in evidence around us; it is in evidence right in this room. But it is a question of making it individual and practical so that it can be spoken of as real christianity.

Ques. It says in Romans 12:6 that "having different gifts, according to the grace which has been given to us, whether it be prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith". I was wondering if there is not a link in that way between chapters 9 and 10 of Matthew, that these men were to go out and minister according to the proportion of faith?

J.T. That is so. And then finally we come to Paul. We have to wait for him before we see the full fruit of the characteristic labour of all the apostles, the characteristic labour.

C.F.E. Is it not remarkable that the Lord brings their faith down to a grain of mustard seed?

J.T. Very good, a grain of mustard seed; only a grain, a small item, but it is faith nevertheless; the real gold is there, that is the point.

R.W.S. Is unbelief a mountain which is removed by a grain of faith like a grain of mustard seed? Following the remark as to faith as a grain of mustard seed, the unit of measurement of unbelief seems to

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be mountains, and of faith grains; but the grain of faith removes the mountain of unbelief.

J.T. Yes, very wonderful I think. It comes home to one's soul at this very minute, the thing that we are talking about. How real christianity is! We are in the centre of this great country here in Washington, but how real christianity is over against all this, the few that have real christianity! And that is the testimony of God in these moments, these last days.

C.H.H. Is the order important as to the measures of faith? For instance it says, "first ... Peter"; that has to be recognised as to those who are first.

J.T. Now we shall have to come on to the end of chapter 10 to see the real values that are in mind in all this that we are talking about. We shall just again read verses 40 and 41: "He that receives you receives me, and he that receives me receives him that sent me. He that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man, shall receive a righteous man's reward. And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only, in the name of a disciple", notice this, "verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward". Now that is what we are going to close with in this reading; only we shall have to go back again to the names of the apostles before we come to these two verses. Now what about this matter of results, with those of us who are older here?

C.H.H. Well, some of us have to be very humble about it.

J.T. Quite so, but there is something here, you know; let not the brethren think there is nothing, because there is something here in the way of results, and from the elder brethren too. And it is for each of us just to look into these matters and be real

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about things, because we are dealing with real christianity. We are dealing with Matthew and with the gospel and with the assembly; but we are dealing with christianity, that is what I am endeavouring to press.

L.W. In naming the disciples and calling them apostles, is the Lord looking forward to setting up the assembly, the foundations of the assembly? That is with all except Judas.

J.T. Let us look at it: "Now the names of the twelve apostles are these": This is very formal. We should read it again, from the first verse.

"And having called to him his twelve disciples, he gave them power over unclean spirits, so that they should cast them out, and heal every disease and every bodily weakness. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the tax-gatherer; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, who was surnamed Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananaean, and Judas the Iscariote, who also delivered him up".

Now there they are, before the universe as we might say, these twelve men, and what results there are! So that is our subject just for the moment and then we shall go on to the idea of relative values in the prophet and the righteous man before we finish.

F.H.L. Yesterday you were referring in chapter 5 to their coming to Him, and you were looking ahead to His calling them to Him here. It is a change of position in that way, is it not? He "called to him his twelve disciples".

J.T. And then "he gave them power over unclean spirits, so that they should cast them out, and heal every disease and every bodily weakness". Now, I would say that that verse is to be noted, because there is a great deal of sickness amongst the

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brethren, a great deal of sickness. And we thank God, so far as we are concerned in New York, that a great many healings have happened. But some are not quite healed yet, and therefore the question now is whether we can take up the word in James as to the healing of the sick, whether they can be healed. The prayer of faith, we are told, heals the sick; it heals.

R.W.S. In James 5:15 it says, "The prayer of faith shall heal the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up".

J.T. I thought that was a very important matter in these readings, not to forget the idea of the healing of the sick by the prayer of faith; not simply by the persons but by their faith, the prayer of faith.

Ques. It says in James that the sick man is to call the elders, who will pray over him and anoint him with oil. How would that work out today?

J.T. Well, first of all, where are your elders? That was a question that used to be asked years ago by Mr. Stoney. Where are your elders? But it did not imply that there were none, it did not imply that. It is just a challenge as to whether there are any elders amongst us, whether it be in Washington or New York or London. Where are the elders? Then the next thing is, if they are here there must be some power with them.

F.J.F. It says "the elders of the assembly", not of the synagogue. James had been speaking a good deal of the synagogue. Now he says, "Let him call to him the elders of the assembly". I suppose they would have the power.

J.T. There used to be a dear brother in this country, Mr. Joseph Pellatt, and he was speaking of recovery through medicine. He quoted several things that were used for healing people, but he said, 'As far as I am concerned I prefer the old paths and I am a believer in James 5' That is to say, it is a

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question of where the Holy Spirit is operating in the sense of healing. The dear brethren need healing spiritually and physically and the point is that James 5 is intended to give us that; it is the vehicle of faith for the healing of the sick.

A.N.W. That would search us. Later the disciples had to come to the Lord and say as to an unclean spirit, "Why were not we able to cast him out? And he says to them, Because of your unbelief" (Matthew 17:19,20). A very searching matter!

C.H.H. You would recognise in healing in addition to James 5 the mercies of God in the way of creatures? For instance, you get Hezekiah who had to apply a plaster of figs; and Timothy was to take a little wine. I mean it would be in addition to faith.

J.T. Well, enlarge on that; the real thing is the enlargement that we are able to give to a matter, spreading it out for us; so that we have "opening" and "laying down"; we are to open up a thing from the Scriptures and then lay it down authoritatively. That is what you get in the book of Acts.

C.H.H. I was only thinking of what we speak of as the creatures of God about which we can freely address God, and count them as God's mercies; and also that we have doctors to help us.

J.T. Yes, quite so.

W.W.M. Would you say that in regard of the sick, there is much in John's writing to Gaius where he says, "I desire that ... thou shouldest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospers" (3 John 1:2)? So that soul prosperity is a great thing in regard of our health. Do you think that?

J.T. It is indeed. There is so much illness, and so much hindrance because of illness, physical illness, that God is speaking to us. But as I was saying a moment ago, as far as New York is concerned we are greatly encouraged in the number of healings.

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L.W. You have not expressed all you have in mind about the twelve apostles.

J.T. Not yet. We hope to say a little more. There are twelve of them and we do not need to say very much about the last one; he was a terrible man.

G.G.B. Might I just enquire a word more about the healing? In James the one who was sick called the elders to him. Now the healing that you speak of in New York -- does that always apply in that way?

J.T. Pretty much, I am thankful to say. We have had remarkable cases of it and we are very much encouraged about that.

G.G.B. Can anyone be healed unless he himself calls the elders?

J.T. "Let him call to him the elders". It taxes you as to whether you know the brethren, the elders "Let him call to him the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him ... and the prayer of faith shall heal the sick". That is a promise.

G.G.B. I mean there must be movement on the part of the one who is sick?

J.T. I think so, that is the idea of it, because that is what it says: "Is any sick among you? let him call to him the elders of the assembly", as much as to say James recognised that there are still elders of the assembly.

T.N.W. Do you think that it entails transparency? Because it leads on to the confession of sins and the forgiveness of them.

J.T. Quite so, "and if he be one who has committed sins, it shall be forgiven him". It is a time for forgiveness as well as healing, because God is ready to forgive us. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).

J.H.T. Does the anointing with oil have to be taken literally or does it just suggest the Spirit?

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J.T. I think we must take it literally; I would be ashamed to say it was not literal. I would be ashamed to say in the face of christianity that it was not literal. It must be literal. Even if it is not seen now in any specific way, yet it really exists literally.

L.L.P. Would you say that if one had faith and was fallen sick and there chanced to be a brother in the locality who was a medical man, faith would make me send for him in the capacity of an elder rather than of a doctor?

J.T. If he is a beloved one, such as Luke the beloved physician, I would be glad to travel with him and to count on him, to ask him to do things. Luke was not simply a good physician but a beloved one.

L.L.P. Some of us had that experience recently. A brother was sick and sent for a brother in the capacity of a medical doctor; and afterwards it came to him that he should have sent for him as an elder.

J.T. Well, maybe there is truth in that.

A.N.W. Luke was evidently at Troas but the recoverer of Eutychus was Paul.

J.T. Just so, the recoverer of Eutychus was Paul.

L.L.P. One is wholeheartedly sympathetic with what you are presenting; I think we ought to draw on it.

W.W.M. In connection with your speaking to the young people here this morning, I have been thinking of a scripture in Hebrews 13:7, "Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God; and considering the issue of their conversation, imitate their faith". That is to be carried out today, is it not?

J.T. "Imitate their faith", very good.

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MATTHEW'S GOSPEL IN VIEW OF THE ASSEMBLY (4)

Matthew 16:13 - 28

J.T. We have now come to the thought we had before us in taking up the gospel of Matthew, that is, the matter of the assembly. Many questions will arise in our minds as to the place that Peter has in this gospel, and the place he has in relation to the assembly, because it is unique in both. So that in verse 13 the Lord raises the whole question with His disciples as to His Person. We notice also the position -- Caesarea-Philippi; the very names indicate the gentile links, and yet the links are decidedly Jewish nevertheless. If the Lord would bring out the matter of the assembly, the Father has to say to it; the Lord would bring that out and also the additional thought of "I also", and then the Lord would bring out too the place that Peter has, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens. And I also", the additional thought of "I also", "I say unto thee that thou art Peter". That is to say the Lord would bring out what Peter was; not who he was but what he was; he was "Peter", not simply a name but a condition, meaning stone, a stone of the building. This is, as I remarked, really the crux of the whole matter that is now before us, the matter of the assembly and who builds it, and what Peter is -- a stone, the material of which it is formed. It is not who he is, as I said, but what he is -- he is a stone.

W.W.M. Does stone represent what is spiritual?

J.T. It is to bring out what Peter was.

A.N.W. In chapter 10, as called with the twelve, he is put first; his name is given as "Simon, who was called Peter", but here he is it; is that right?"Thou art Peter".

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J.T. Just so, "Thou art Peter", it is what he was, not who he was.

R.P. Would the Lord in addressing him as Simon Bar-jona speak of what he was in responsibility?

J.T. Just so, son of Jonas; he is a son of Jonas, that is who he is; but what he is is the point, what he is under the name Peter.

A.C.W. Is he looked at in a potential way here?

J.T. That is right, that is a good word -- potential.

F.J.F. Does stone indicate that what he was is abiding?

J.T. Quite so, permanent, the idea of permanency.

F.J.F. The Lord Himself is said to be "The stone which the builders rejected" (Psalm 118:22).

J.T. Just so, the builders rejected it, but He is made the Head of the corner.

F.J.F. Does that mean that Peter was characteristically of the rock, the same material?

J.T. Characteristically of the same material, only it is the difference between rock and stone. 'Rock' is a bigger idea, it is the idea of permanency in largeness.

E.A.L. Stone involves divine workmanship, does it not, as against brick which is made by man? Stone is created.

J.T. You say the stone is divine workmanship, quite so. Brick is a man-made thing, it is processed and burnt. Bricks are good enough for some building but they are in no way equal to stone.

B.F. Would you say that before the Lord disclosed to Peter what he was, He asked him of his knowledge concerning Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ? "Who do ye say that I am?"

J.T. Well, yes, but the Lord did not say, 'Peter, who dost thou say', but "Who do ye say". It was a question to all of them, and Peter could answer it,

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for he was characteristically the thing himself, the very thing himself.

B.F. Does it indicate that we must have a knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ to get revelations from Him?

J.T. It does.

J.H.P. Does the 'ye' in that way involve the earlier parts of the gospel that we have been reading, particularly chapter 5, and then chapters 9 and 10 that we have been reading today?

J.T. Very good, because apostleship links on with it.

A.B.P. Do we have a parallel in Acts 13:9 where it says, "Saul, who also is Paul"? Do we have Paul coming into prominence as to what he is in that chapter?

J.T. "Who also is"; it speaks of what the man is, he is Paul, a little one, the meaning is that he is little. He is not a great pretentious man like an archbishop or that sort of thing; all that is excluded from these thoughts that we are dealing with.

A.B.P. "Filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 13:9).

J.T. That is it.

J.H.P. I was thinking too of what you were saying this morning about comparative values. Would that enter into it, the Lord's evaluation here?

J.T. It would. We were unable to go through the whole thought this morning, but it is well to keep it before us as to comparative values. I do not know how many we are here but we are not a very great many; still, there are values attached to us and they are comparative. We are not all of the same kind or the same value. We have to be discriminative as to what there is before us here in Washington at the present moment and how it is valued in heaven.

A.C.W. Is this a special communication to Peter?

J.T. I would think so. It says that "Simon Peter answering said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the

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living God". That is what Peter said. "And Jesus answering said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens". The Father has revealed the thing to him; it is a wholly spiritual matter. It was not the Son or the Spirit, it was the Father; He revealed the whole matter to Peter.

C.H.H. The thought of revelation is greater than that of observation, is it not? I was thinking of what we get in Ephesians 1:17, the apostle's desire that we might have "the spirit of wisdom and revelation", which is more than observation. The men in the ship in chapter 14 observed certain things and they say, "Truly thou art God's Son"; but Peter said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", by revelation.

J.T. Just so, it was a revelation that Peter had and nobody else had it; it was a foundational idea.

F.J.F. Is the Father bringing out what is new now in contrast to the kingdom? The Lord speaks of the householder "who brings out of his treasure things new and old" (Matthew 13:52).

J.T. I think so.

A.N.W. Does the Lord show that the minds of two divine Persons converge on this man, in the "I also"?

J.T. Quite so, the "also" means that. The Father had said something to Peter, and now the Lord would say something, and what the Lord says to Peter refers to what he is in quality; that is to say, he is a stone, a stone in the building.

C.F.E. What is the difference between Peter here and Philip in John 14:8 when he says, "Lord, shew us the Father and it suffices us"?

J.T. The difference between what Philip says and what is said here is very simple. Philip said, "Lord, shew us the Father", and the Lord said, "Am I so

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long a time with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip?". He did not know the Lord though He had been so long a time with him; and of course we all have to challenge ourselves as to that. We are a long time with the Lord ostensibly, professedly, but then how much do we know Him? That is the question that comes up in the heart and mind.

A.R. Would it be right to say the Lord was waiting for this communication from Peter to bring out this light about the assembly?

J.T. Undoubtedly; He intended Peter to have this distinction. You get in chapter 20 of John's gospel other things of a similar nature, but we are dealing with Matthew, and I prefer to keep to Matthew because he is the man that the Lord intended to use to bring out all this as to the truth of the assembly and the gospel.

Ques. In Matthew 11 the Father reveals something to the babes; but here it is a revelation to Peter, not to the babes. It is more personal here, is it not?

J.T. We must quote what the Lord says to His Father about that, "I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes" (Matthew 11:25); "to babes". But this is not that, it is to Peter the revelation is made.

J.H.T. The coming of the Messiah was predicted in the Old Testament, but that the Messiah would be the Son of God was not revealed, was it?

J.T. No, that is revealed in the New.

R.W.S. We have in verse 16 of our chapter that "Simon Peter answering said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". He says just enough, does he not, as over against the men we were reading of this morning who spoke too much? He waits for a suited time and then just says enough, just a

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few words but in such power! "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". Is he not an example for us that if we have received something in private we are to wait for a suitable time to give it out?

J.T. I think he is. Matthew makes Peter the first apostle, "first, Simon, who was called Peter". But we have to wait for Paul for full assembly light; he does not appear in Matthew or in John or in any of the gospels; we wait for Paul and we get him in his own epistles and we get him, of course, in the book of Acts.

F.H.L. The Lord builds on this confession the great truth as to the assembly, does He not? It is "on this rock", on the truth of what Peter is saying.

J.T. That is to say the Father had said certain things to Peter in the sense of revelation; 'revelation' is the word used. But the Lord says to Peter, "I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter" -- "thou art Peter". It is not your name, it is not your father's name, it is what you are now, that is to say you are a stone in the structure; and that is a wonderful thing for us to understand, that we are to be stones in the structure.

V.C.L. There must have been something entering into what Peter was that was very choice to heaven; because the Father is able to reveal something to him, and the Lord is able to speak to him, and the Spirit of God later on in Acts is able to speak to him. What is the quality standing out in him that should mark us that we might get these free speakings by divine Persons?

J.T. We have to learn it here where the Spirit of God is, that is where we have to learn it. Peter gets it first from the Father, and then the Lord says, "I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter"; that is, I have got a great structure:. "on this rock I will build my assembly", and you are the kind of

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man that belongs to it; that is the point. "On this rock", that 'rock' is Christ; but Peter is a stone, "thou art Peter". 'You are not a rock', the Lord says to him in effect, 'but you are Peter, that is to say, you are the kind of man that I am going to use for the structure that I have in mind to build'. "Thou art Peter, and on this rock", well, the "this" refers to Christ, "on this rock I will build my assembly". The Lord is saying in effect, I have before Me to build a structure called the assembly. I want material for it and you are the kind of man I want. "Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly"; "Thou art" is one thing, but "this" is the Lord Jesus Himself -- He is the Rock.

A.J.E.W. In the appearings in 1 Corinthians 15 Cephas -- or Peter -- is first again, but he is not last, is he? The Lord begins with Peter, but He can continue this thought of appearing so that He goes on from that point and leads right on to Paul. It says in chapter 15:5, "and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the most remain until now, but some also have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to an abortion, he appeared to me also". I was thinking that again we begin with Cephas -- or Peter -- as if the Lord has something there that He can begin with; but He builds upon it; He brings in others as He continues the appearings, and eventually leads up to Paul. Is that right?

J.T. Quite so. But we get more than that there, we get how Paul laboured more than they all. Now tell us more about that, please.

A.J.E.W. I was thinking that it just gave us a link between the basic side in Cephas -- or Peter -- and the opening up of Paul's ministry to us, Paul

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himself being brought in as the climax. Verse 9 says, "For I am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called apostle, because I have persecuted the assembly of God".

J.T. Now that is wonderful, morally wonderful, that he should say that, but he says more.

A.J.E.W. "But by God's grace I am what I am; and his grace, which was towards me, has not been vain; but I have laboured more abundantly than they all".

J.T. "I am what I am", yes, it is what God has done. We have the leading man now, but we have had to wait for him; and now we have him, and he is Paul. He is not Peter, he is Paul.

J.H.P. Do you think there was anything lacking in Peter's character that God could not use him for that purpose? The thought of the assembly is worked out by Paul, and the thought of sonship, Christ the Son of the living God, is worked out by John; but Peter did not go on to open up that line.

J.T. Well, those two are very near in 1 Corinthians 15; Paul goes very near to it there if we go back to the passage and read it again, because I would think the dear brethren will get great help this afternoon if we get all these thoughts about the foundation and about Paul; and the distinction that is made by the Lord Himself -- first by the Father and then by the Lord Himself as to Peter.

J.H.P. "For I delivered to you, in the first place, what also I had received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he was raised the third day, according to the scriptures; and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the most remain until now, but some also have fallen asleep, then he appeared to James; then to all the

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apostles; and last of all, as to an abortion, he appeared to me also" (1 Corinthians 15:3 - 8).

J.T. We have not got that information anywhere else but here; we must remember that so that we must all pay attention to it. The word 'abortion', meaning 'born out of due time', is a very remarkable expression.

J.H.P. Paul goes on to say, "For I am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called apostle, because I have persecuted the assembly of God. But by God's grace I am what I am; and his grace, which was towards me, has not been vain; but I have laboured more abundantly than they all, but not I, but the grace of God which was with me".

J.T. Now it is wonderful to think on that, to sit down and think of Paul; he is there in the letters to Corinth depicted as he laboured.

F.J.F. I was going to ask whether that very important phrase that he was born out of due time means that his ministry really belonged, as connected with the assembly, to eternity; whether the twelve were connected more with the kingdom and the ministry that they had in the Acts, but Paul coming in his ministry really brought in what was for the eternal glory of God?

J.T. Oh, I would go with that; it is a question of the assembly and the place that Paul has in the assembly and with it according to the divine mind. Peter did not have it; therefore Paul takes the lead in all these matters. It is a remarkable thing that it is so, that the Lord should order it so that Paul would have this place. He is our apostle; Peter was the apostle of the circumcision, but Paul is the apostle of the gentiles. "I magnify mine office", he says in Romans 11:13; I magnify it. We all want to know the meaning of the things in this chapter, for we shall not get the gain of them if we do not know their meaning.

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E.A.L. "For other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:11).

A.N.W. "But by God's grace I am what I am" (1 Corinthians 15:10). It is just what we are.

J.T. We are all in the hand of God; God is the Maker of us all, but as you say it is just a question of what we are. "I am what I am", each one of us is that; whatever he is, God has made him that.

V.C.L. Is that thought of what we are carried forward in the beginning of Acts where it speaks of the crowd of names, about a hundred and twenty? It is not who they were, but a question of the quality that was there.

F.J.F. Was the revelation that Peter had 'stone' in his soul? Did that constitute the stone character in his soul?

J.T. You use the word 'soul'; of course there must be much more than the word 'soul' to cover a man.

F.J.F. I was wondering whether that revelation that the Father was pleased to give him, I suppose favouring him above all others at that moment, constituted 'stone' in Peter himself?

J.T. Undoubtedly; but the product was himself -- that was the stone, he was the stone. And so Revelation 21 leaves out Paul; in dealing with the foundations of the wall he is eliminated, because it is a matter of the apostles of the Lamb, which is very remarkable.

L.L.P. Referring to Paul's word as to Peter and himself in Galatians that he was himself to go to the nations and Peter to the Jews, would that be confirmed by the Lord Himself in John 21 where He appoints Peter to feed His sheep and feed His lambs?

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J.T. Just so; there is great distinction in that.

L.L.P. He is characteristically a Jewish apostle in that way?

J.T. Quite so, characteristically a Jewish apostle; that is what he is. Paul is the characteristic gentile apostle, he is our apostle; we can rightly say he is our apostle if we are gentiles.

C.H.H. I suppose Peter would have the distinction of preceding Paul by having the keys of the kingdom as you get in Acts 10?

J.T. Quite so; but he lost his ground, you know, which is a very sorrowful thing. "I withstood him to the face", Paul says (Galatians 2:11); he was carried away with James' influence and Paul had to stand the ground against them all at one time.

C.H.H. Yes; but whilst Paul withstood him to the face later on Peter spoke very well of the apostle Paul, speaking about his writings as being Scripture.

J.T. Quite so; because these apostles were real men, men with the divine nature; they were heavenly men, they were real men that formed the assembly. So that all these things that we have mentioned refer to these twelve men as having quality. Then Paul comes in afterwards, Paul and Barnabas too, so that there were others added. They were only twelve at the beginning, and then Judas was omitted because he failed altogether; he betrayed the Lord; he sold Him.

C.H.H. I was thinking rather of the part that Peter had as having the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; that is, would that furnish the necessary moral basis for the assembly? I mean we must furnish the basis.

J.T. Yes; but at the same time the one man that the Lord had in mind had yet to come; we have to bear that in mind, that one man had yet to come, and that man was Paul. Barnabas of course was with him, but Barnabas was carried away with

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dissimulation while Paul stood his ground. We get nobody like Paul in that sense.

R.W.S. Does the Lord look down through the whole dispensation when He speaks about hades' gates not prevailing against the assembly? I was thinking of the great importance of understanding what the assembly is today, because of the presumption of Rome, and the speculation of Protestantism as to who Christ is, whether Jeremias or a prophet. The truth is in the assembly and we are encouraged that it will go through, that hades' gates will not prevail against it. Did not the Lord in saying that, look down through the whole dispensation and see our time with all its difficulties?

J.T. I am sure He did, and the great revival too that we have part in now. It surely must have been in the Lord's mind from the very start.

R.P. Why is it "the Son of the living God" rather than 'the Son of God'?

J.T. It is just in the word 'living' I would say, as distinguishing it from all else; "Thou art the ... Son of the living God". It is a word that runs through Scripture. "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", wonderful statement!

E.E.H. Does not Peter use that word himself regarding living stones in his epistle?

J.T. Just so: "yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood" (1 Peter 2:5).

Ques. This confession is made to the Lord Himself. Is there any point in that for us, that it is not only a question of the gospel but of what we are able to say to divine Persons about Themselves?

J.T. Very good; I am sure the Lord is indicating to us that we should be able to speak as we ought to speak.

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Ques. In Hebrews 13:15 we have, "the fruit of the lips confessing his name". It is confessing His name to the Father there, is it not?

J.T. Yes.

G.G.B. Can we become suitable material for the assembly without this revelation?

J.T. I do not think so, So that every saint here today is in heaven's mind for all this, that we belong to the assembly, and we belong to all this that we are talking about. Only that Paul is the leading man in the assembly, because he has got the ministry of the assembly; the mystery belongs to Paul, to nobody else. It is very important that we should make these distinctions in our minds and to one another too, so that we can speak with intelligence.

G.G.B. Then we should receive the Lord's own confirmation too, I suppose, as He says to Peter, "I also".

J.T. Just so. Think of all the dear brethren here, and the young people especially -- they are always before us -- I mean as to whether they are really taking in what we are talking about. And the sisters too, are they all taking in what we are talking about as to the assembly, as belonging to it, as being stones in that wonderful structure, stones in it?

A.B.P. So that you would place great importance upon the clarification of the truth as to the sonship of Christ which God developed some twenty years ago for us in relation to entering into the assembly intelligently now? I was thinking of the truth as to the sonship of Christ, as to the position He took up in manhood; and therefore the part we have with Him in relation to all our eternal blessing as the One who has become Man, and the way it has thrown light upon the truth in John's gospel in a special way.

J.T. Very good.

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R.W.S. I would like some help on revelations. Do we get revelations today?

J.T. Well, the apostle says, "I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago" (2 Corinthians 12:1, 2). I do not say that that is going on now, but I would hesitate to say it is not. I mean to say, take all these meetings we have had, some of us for the last fifty years and others even more than that, what meetings we have had, and what disclosures God has graciously granted to us in these last closing days as we call them! What wonderful things have been brought out for us, Mr. Darby having been the man to do it. We have had enlargements on these, but the idea is that they are wonderful disclosures from God through the Lord Jesus to the assembly in the last one hundred and twenty years. The question now is whether we realise that these are knowable facts, and whether they are known to us. I am talking to all that are here, brothers and sisters; how much do we know about these things that belong to the assembly? Is the younger element here, brothers and sisters, taking on these things, and becoming characterised by them?

J.C. Is not this a day of great possibilities? Revelations are possible, Paul said, "Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?" (1 Corinthians 9:1); and again, "I will come to visions and revelations", it may be possible, may it not?

J.T. That is the question I am seeking to raise with every brother and sister here this afternoon, as to what he knows about these matters, whether he is able to talk about them intelligently.

A.N.W. 1 Corinthians 14:1 says, "Follow after love, and be emulous of spiritual manifestations, but rather that ye may prophesy". Does that wonderful chapter regarding prophetic ministry seem to stand in that relation?

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J.T. Quite so, but when was that written? The Bible was written in the beginning of christianity, so that all of that has come to pass. But then we are coming into the thing today and our children are coming into it; and our forefathers came into it; they have known something about it, and we are here this afternoon to learn something about it. And if we are conversing with one another, or if a group of all sisters are talking together, can we talk about these things intelligently?

C.H.H. The first prayer of the apostle in Ephesians desires that we might have "the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him" (chapter 1:17). Do we get the spirit of it? "The spirit of wisdom and revelation", it says.

J.T. I. would say the spirit of it, because the Spirit is here, the Spirit of God Himself is here; and therefore the thing is tangible to us, so that we can, as it were, speaking reverently, put our hands on the blessed Spirit of God. That is the wonderful thing that enters into our times. But then what we are reading in this book of Matthew was written nineteen hundred years ago, and there have been no revelations so far as we know, since.

G.H. That verse in Hymn 211 used to read: 'Still the Spirit is revealing', but then it was changed to 'Still the Spirit is unfolding'.

J.T. Quite so, and I would say that, because it is a question of the Spirit of God being Himself actually down here. He is down here, and here for us; He is here to open up these things to us and that is the great point this afternoon, that we have the Spirit of God actually amongst us. It is a verity, a wonderful thing to think of, that we here can say this afternoon that the Spirit of God Himself is actually amongst us.

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E.A.L. Last night in the address that we had from our dear brother we read, "And it shall be in the last days, saith God, that I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions" (Acts 2:17). What is the distinction between a vision and a revelation?

J.T. Well, I am not saying that there are not things going on that have the character of revelation; but it is a question of ministry today; it is not a question of actual unfolding of Scripture as we have it here; it is a question of ministry, and the ministry still goes on, and has been going on peculiarly for the last hundred and fifty years. We are coming into it now, and many of our younger people too are coming into this matter, and the question is, as I said, whether we can talk about these things together with intelligence.

E.A.L. It is a developing matter. I mean the truth is always broadening out to us, is it not?

J.T. Oh, it is; it is wonderful what has come out in the last hundred and twenty years!

Ques. Have you in mind what John says in Revelation 22:18, "I testify to every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If any one shall add to these things, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book"? The Scriptures are final, are they not?

J.T. They are, and that is the point that I am trying to emphasise, that the Scriptures are final. "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable" (2 Timothy 3:16). The writing of Scripture is not going on now; that has not taken place since the apostolic times; we have nothing of that now. What is going on is the Spirit of God's activity in using gifts. There are certain ones called gifts; God has given gifts, and they are used of God to unfold the truth to us. And that is going on at the present time.

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E.A.L. That is what I think we all need to come to, that the prophetic ministry is to stir us up to see how much we lack in the truth.

J.T. Quite so. It is not exactly prophecy, it is prophetic ministry; it is ministry that can be characterised or spoken of as prophetic. We have been having meetings of that kind all along for perhaps a hundred and twenty years.

B.W. It says in 1 Corinthians 14:30, "But if there be a revelation to another sitting there ..." Is that revelation distinguished from a prophetic word?

J.T. There is no revelation today. The Scriptures are complete; the canon of Scripture is complete. We may as well accept that, because it is so. The ministry is going on nevertheless, but the canon of Scripture is complete. These books are contained in it; they convey to us variety, these books from Matthew to the end of Revelation.

E.A.L. Mr. Darby wrote that someone came to him and said that he had a revelation; but he could not show it to him in the Scriptures, so Mr. Darby could not accept the fact that he had it.

J.T. Quite so. There are many like the Mormons and such people who claim that they have revelations, but they are falsifying the truth.

R.P. What is the force of the word 'reveal' in Galatians 1:16, where it says that "God ... was pleased to reveal his Son in me"?

J.T. It is a past event; "God", it says there, "was pleased to reveal his Son in me, that I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations". Well, that is the past tense; that has happened; it is Paul saying what had happened through him.

R.P. I was just wondering as to the difference between revealing His Son in me, and revealing His Son to me?

J.T. It happened 'in' Paul; that is a very good way to put it, because 'to' is quite right as well as

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'in'. But revealing "in me" is some operation that God had made in Paul that constituted him the superior man as regards the assembly, because he had the ministry of the mystery. Only he had it, and therefore he is our apostle, and we have all these great advantages in the unfoldings in his writings. We have the writings from Matthew to the end of Revelation -- though all are not his writings -- but we have all that now for our study and to enter into. We are here this afternoon with the hope that everybody will get something, because it is the assembly time; it is the time of the building up of the assembly, and it is going to be complete very soon.

G.G.B. The Lord says, "On this rock I will build my assembly". Now we know that every believer is in the assembly, but we also speak of suitable assembly material. Are we all conscious of being built in by the Lord Himself?

J.T. But then the question is, before we go on to that, Is every believer in the assembly? There may be believers that are not in the assembly; they are not sealed; they may be born anew but they are not sealed. Is that clear to you?

G.G.B. I am glad to hear you say that; but at the time of the rapture every believer will form part of the assembly?

J.T. I believe it fully; because God will do much in a short time, I believe, in the winding up of things.

G.G.B. You mean at this present time that some believers are not in the assembly?

J.T. Quite so, I am sure of that. Many are not delivered in their souls really.

G.G.B. That should be a very searching matter.

J.T. It should.

E.A.L. Could we put it this way, that they are of the assembly, but not in the assembly?

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J.T. They are of it because it is a question of the divine mind; they are of it, but they are not in it if they are not sealed; and if they have not got the Holy Spirit they are not sealed.

F.J.F. We have sometimes to meet a statement that those believers who have not the Spirit will be left behind when the Lord comes.

J.T. God does not put things in that way. I believe He is going to take out every one that is intended in His mind for the assembly, and He will fit them for it before the assembly is finished. God can do it in a very short time if He wishes, you know; He can do very much in a very short time.

R.W.S. May I ask at this point about ministry we have had as to the assembly being the only family? I would like to ask about children, those under age or infants; they are not of the assembly family, are they?

J.T. No, but you see how wonderfully gracious God is. I would say that God is wonderfully gracious to His children. God would say to you, 'You have a large family, and I hope to bring them all in'. He would convey to you and to all of us who have children that He is ready to bring them all into the assembly; it is the wonderful grace of God, I think. We are in a critical time, we are right in the time before the millennium; we have come along to the bordering time of the assembly's finish here. The whole idea is going to be finished. In the meantime God is greatly stressing the idea of the household and that we should take care of our children, and God is saying, 'I will take My part, I will look after them from My side; but do you look after them, see that they are brought into the assembly and properly cared for and nurtured and taught the word of God'. I believe that is what is going on and it is a remarkable time for us.

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F.H.L. You are using the scripture, "For also in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13) in relation to the assembly?

J.T. That is right, "baptised by one Spirit into one body".

A.C.W. What you are bringing before us would give us to have greater appreciation of what is coming out in the ministry, that we may be in the spirit of the apostle Paul in having conscious knowledge. In his writings he says, "I know". He does not 'think' or 'believe', but he says, "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded" (2 Timothy 1:12). Would not the ministry bring us to that by the Spirit?

J.T. It would.

L.L.P. What about Ephesians 1:13 in the light of what you are saying; "Having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise"? I do not quite catch what you mean by those believing not perhaps being sealed.

J.T. When Paul says in speaking to the Ephesians, "Ye have been sealed", he knew them; I am not speaking of people that I know exactly, but he did know them; he knew them all.

A.N.W. There were twelve men in Acts 19, believers, but they had not the Spirit, and hence were not in the assembly surely until they had.

J.T. When we get Paul saying certain things about certain ones in Ephesus, he knew them well; he knew them accurately with spiritual discernment and he could speak rightly of them; we cannot speak as Paul spoke.

G.G.B. You mean the sealing does not follow automatically upon the believing?

J.T. No, it does not, but believers as a rule are sealed. But then there are certain things that may

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happen to believers that may hinder them; certain conditions may arise in their histories that may hinder their being in the assembly, and we have to face all that. We have not got the ability or the wisdom that Paul had to speak as to these things. He knew, God gave him wisdom to know these things, but we have not that; we have to admit our limitations.

W.W.M. It is Paul that spoke of what God will do "in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Corinthians 15:52).

J.T. How much He can do in a moment! That is what I am endeavouring to say. What God can do is one thing, but then we may be dilatory about what we should do, and that is another thing; many of us are dilatory about things that we should have done.

V.C.L. You have said recently, which helps me, that parents and the brethren can be free to speak to God asking that the Spirit might be given to one and another. As to our children, you would say we should be quite free to ask?

J.T. Many of us, I am sure, have been given to that, asking the Lord to give the Spirit to the children and the grandchildren, and we need to do it. But we are very dilatory, many of us are quite dilatory on the matter and let things go; but God is not dilatory, He intends to do certain things and He will do them.

D.Macd. What does Paul mean in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 when he says, "But I make known to you, brethren, the glad tidings which I announced to you, which also ye received, in which also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, ... unless indeed ye have believed in vain"?

J.T. As to believing in vain? He is just speaking of facts. Paul wrote it and wrote it to Corinth; he knew what their characteristics were, God had given him that ability, and we might as well admit that we

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do not have that ability. Are you satisfied in your mind as to that?

D.Macd. I cannot understand how anybody could believe in vain. It says, "Believe ... and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).

J.T. Why should it not be? How many you have seen, that you can look back upon and say of them, Those persons had not the Holy Spirit! We have had to say that of some persons that were even breaking bread, that they had not the Holy Spirit; the characteristics were not there.

A.N.W. The question the apostle raises in Acts 19:2, is, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" That is the question.

J.T. Just so; they said they did not know about the Spirit.

R.W.S. Hebrews 6:4 - 6 speaks of those who "have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come, and have fallen away, crucifying for themselves as they do the Son of God, and making a show of him".

J.T. So even here today, we are here at this meeting and we are partakers of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is here today operating at these meetings; but there may be people such as I am alluding to who may fall away altogether and prove that they never had the Holy Spirit.

J.S. Matthew 25 would show that five of the virgins were wise and five were foolish.

Rem. And as to demons, James 2:19 says, "The demons even believe, and tremble".

L.L.P. In Acts 8:13 it says, "And Simon also himself believed"; yet we know his history.

F.N.W. It says in John 2:23 - 25, "And when he was Jerusalem, at the passover, at the feast, many believed on his name, beholding his signs which he wrought. But Jesus

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himself did not trust himself to them, because he knew all men, and that he had not need that any should testify of man, for himself knew what was in man".

J.T. Quite so; now that is all very simple and plain and very solemn. Because, while I would not impute it to any, yet it is just possible that many of us within hearing today may not be sealed by the Holy Spirit at all; they may never have had the Holy Spirit. But at the same time I believe God is very wonderfully gracious and is giving us to understand that it is the time of the Spirit, it is the time of giving the Spirit, and why do we not get Him? He is available to us, "For every one that asks receives ... how much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:10,13). Why are we not taking advantage of that? There are many that one has had to do with for years, and one could say that at one time they looked as if they were real and had got the Spirit, and then they fall away. The world has had influence with them and they do not go forward. Well, we just have to bow to that, just carrying on as we are doing every day, trying to get the young people, everybody that comes within our reach, to believe the gospel; "Repent and believe in the glad tidings" (Mark 1:15), the word is; God is not failing on His side; then the question is; Why do so many miss it? Because they are careless, I would say. Therefore they need watching; and we need to carry on these meetings that we are having all these years. I do not see anything else to do but to do that, to keep on doing it.

C.H.H. In connection with Ephesians 1:13, "having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation", I suppose we may say that very many are converted without hearing the word of the truth; but eventually they might come under the

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truth and it would be like a second conversion. Would that be right?

J.T. There is so much that is unreal abroad in the so-called profession, there is so very much of that kind that is unreal, that it casts you upon God that we might keep on; as we know that God is using us, that we might keep on as we have been doing. And God will not fail us; there will be results. I believe that we can say to the brethren that there will be results. Let us keep on; let us not lose heart.

F.H.L. Can we link this on with the scripture we had this morning, "According to your faith, be it unto you" (Matthew 9:29)?

J.T. I am sure we can.

J.H.P. I was thinking that we should not be too stereotyped in our views, should we? We have that part of the history of Peter in this very chapter where the Lord had to say to him, "Get away behind me, Satan"; and later He says to him, "When thou are converted, strengthen thy brethren" (Luke 22:32). So that God's ways are wonderful in that way. He may take different ways with different people. Would you say that?

J.T. I would say that fully.

A.B.P. Does not John's gospel suppose that we are getting fresh touches all the time?

J.T. I do think so, remarkably so; John's gospel is opening up to us in a remarkable way. And I would say to the brethren not to give up heart, "for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not" (Galatians 6:9), it says; "if we faint not". That does not refer to persons that are unconverted; it refers to young people, persons that are in the field, as it were, that are being reaped, brought into the garner; but the question is to be patient and wait, that "in due season we shall reap, if we faint not". Keep on at it, let us be encouraged to keep on at it.

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F.J.F. "Your labour is not in vain in the Lord".

L.L.P. Would you say that the Lord's parable in Matthew 13 would put us on our guard as to this kind of thing? It shows in the parable of the sower the possibility of failure as to the results. It says in verse 19, "From every one who hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the wicked one comes and catches away what was sown in his heart: this is he that is sown by the wayside. But he that is sown on the rocky places -- this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, but has no root in himself, but is for a time only; and when tribulation or persecution happens on account of the word, he is immediately offended".

J.T. Now all these people are before us this afternoon. Young people here, let them get on their guard about all this and see to it that their case is not like these. There are things stated in Matthew 13 that are warnings to us.

L.L.P. Who is at fault when these things happen, when failure comes in? We have young people among us ofttimes about whom we are quite happy, and the next thing we are mourning about them. Is it our fault?

J.T. Very likely; so that we must apply ourselves more strenuously to get results.

F.J.F. Did not Paul stay a long time to seek to help people, for eighteen months in Corinth, and then three years in Ephesus?

J.T. Well, the book of Acts certainly affords us great information in all these matters, as to the truth of conversion and coming into the possession of the Spirit of God and coming into the assembly. The book of Acts is full of it, and it is for us to study it carefully and look into it prayerfully. There is no doubt that results are being reached, but let us be more strenuous about it so that we get more results, more definite results.

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Ques. May I ask a question about this victory over the gates of hades? In Revelation 3:9 it speaks of those of the synagogue of Satan, that "they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet". Would those who know a little about that be in the good of this victory?

J.T. I think the book of Revelation has to be taken into account as to its peculiar character. It is not like the book of Acts; things are not definite as they are in Acts. The book of Revelation deals with the very great indefiniteness as to the service of God that existed down through the Middle Ages, the kind of service that would be carried on and the assumed results reached; but they are not so reliable as they are in the book of Acts. Results in the book of Revelation are not reliable in that sense. It is a case of workmen who were growing weary; they were growing unfit and the results were not nearly so great as they had been in the book of Acts; we just have to face all that and seek to make ourselves more diligent to reach the results that we wish to have and to get our children saved and brought into the assembly. That is what I would say.

L.L.P. What are you going to do when they are in the assembly?

J.T. That is the real difficulty, to keep them in, to keep them walking in the truth according to the right principles that are laid down in the book of Acts or in the epistles.

L.L.P. You are putting your hand on things that definitely have been and are an exercise to this locality.

J.T. That is very good.

A.N.W. That is the prophetic character of the ministry: "Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet" (John 4:19).

F.J.F. Is it not a question now of the elders? What are the elders doing?

J.T. That is a good question.

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C.H. What about the binding and loosing in verse 19? It says, "And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens". We get something similar in Matthew 18:18; and in John 20.

J.T. Let us see what John 20 says. John is the spiritual side. It seems clear that we should bring in John at this point. He says, "When therefore it was evening on that day, which was the first day of the week, and the doors shut where the disciples were, through fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and says to them, Peace be to you. And having said this, he shewed to them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced therefore, having seen the Lord. Jesus said therefore again to them, Peace be to you: as the Father sent me forth, I also send you. And having said this, he breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit".

We should notice that "having said this, he breathed into them". The Lord breathed into them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit". He did not say this to Peter in Matthew. This is found in John's gospel; it is a collective idea.

C.H. It says, "Receive the Holy Spirit: whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained".

J.T. 'Ye' is plural, it is not just Peter. It is John's ministry and it is the saints in a plural sense, that is, these things are open to them. Now this is John's special touch dealing with this matter that we are now on. John's special touch, and it is not hid. It is the saints that are in mind here, it is the plural; the saints are to come into all this by the Lord's own action: "he breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit: whose soever

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sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whosoever sins ye retain, they are retained". These are great facts dealing with this matter that we are now speaking of.

F.J.F. Is it because the Holy Spirit is there with them that they can administer the remission? I mean that when the Lord had gone on high the power still remained in the assembly, because God was present in the assembly.

J.T. I think so. The only thing that has to be added to all this is what was said at the beginning as to the finality or the completion of the word of God. When that is finished we have to leave things, and go on according to what we are doing now, carrying on as we can, God helping us; because God has not left the brethren; He is helping us, and He is looking for results through us. We are coming to it in a small way, but then it is to be in a greater way.

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MATTHEW'S GOSPEL IN VIEW OF THE ASSEMBLY (5)

Matthew 26:26 - 32; Matthew 28:16 - 20

J.T. I think it is understood that we should look at the Lord's supper at this reading in the way in which it appears in the gospel of Matthew. There should be some regularity in approaching this subject, which has been much in mind during the morning as we partook of the Supper. It is hoped that these scriptures will yield what is needed as to the matter in hand, a subject found elsewhere of course in the gospels, but to be regarded here especially in the light of the fact that in Matthew we have no record of the ascension of the Lord Jesus to heaven. So that we need to take that into consideration -- as to why it is that there is no ascension, and yet there is so much about the assembly; as if the Lord would confine us to the earth, as it were, in our thoughts about the truth in the gospel of Matthew. Yesterday we had chapter 16, which we scarcely exhausted. It treats of the subject before us so that we might just look at it again for a moment, reading verses 13 to 20. "But when Jesus was come into the parts of Caesarea-Philippi, he demanded of his disciples, saying, Who do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some, John the baptist; and others, Elias; and others again, Jeremias or one of the prophets. He says to them, But ye, who do ye say that I am? And Simon Peter answering said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens. And I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee

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the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens. Then he enjoined on his disciples that they should say to no man that he was the Christ".

I thought it worth while to revert again to chapter 16 because of the peculiar place that Peter holds in service in the ministry. That is to say, Peter answers the Lord's question in a way that shows how the Father had spoken to him; and then the Lord says, "I also", meaning that there were two divine Persons speaking. The first is the Father, and then the Lord Himself, "I also", and Peter is in mind. The hope is that what we have read in chapter 26 will enlarge on this. The Lord's supper implies fellowship, so that it is said "as they were eating". The word proceeds to say, "And as they were eating, Jesus, having taken the bread and blessed, broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. And having taken the cup and given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it. For this is my blood, that of the new covenant, that shed for many for remission of sins. But I say to you, that I will not at all drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new" -- that is in a new way -- "with you in the kingdom of my Father. And having sung a hymn, they went out to the mount of Olives". That is a beautiful finish in linking all this up with the beginning of the Acts, and how the apostles are brought in there in view of all that is to come out in that book. But now the thought is to begin with Peter, and then to proceed with the Lord's supper itself, involving eating.

J.S. What would you say of verse 21, as to eating there also?

J.T. "And as they were eating he said, Verily

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I say to you, that one of you shall deliver me up". The eating there of the passover is to call attention to Judas' betrayal, that they were actually eating when he was preparing to betray the Lord. A terrible thing that they should be engaged in the satisfaction involved in eating, and yet one of them about to betray the Lord Himself, delivering Him up! In verse 26 we read that, "as they were eating", the Lord introduced His Supper.

Ques. Is it in keeping with the assembly gospel that this matter of who will deliver up the Lord has to be taken up before the Supper commences? In Luke as you know this question is raised after the Supper; but this is raised before the Supper which would suggest the assembly order of things, that matters that are antagonistic to the Lord are dealt with before the Supper takes place. Would you say that?

J.T. That is to say we are bound to attend to the things that are against the truth, so that way is made for the Lord's supper, which is seen in this passage read in Matthew 26"And as they were eating, Jesus, having taken the bread". The thing proceeds in an orderly way, as way is made for it. A good many of the Lord's people are here this afternoon, and no doubt most of us, if not all, are actually breaking bread. But then, the question now brought up is whether there are any delinquencies which would hinder the breaking of bread, whether there are things in any one of us which would hinder this precious memorial of the Lord's supper being celebrated and enjoyed.

G.G.B. What would this eating involve? It was while they were eating that the Lord took the bread and gave thanks.

J.T. Well; satisfaction is involved in it, and of course it is spiritual if applied to ourselves. It is a question of appropriation of what is of God, what is

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spiritual. Eating implies appropriation of what is available to us in the fellowship, and of course there is an immensity available to us in the gospel of Matthew. This 26th chapter then alludes to the actual partaking of the Lord's supper.

R.W.S. Does the opening statement of verse 26 "as they were eating", refer to the passover, or to the Lord's supper? In verse 21 it is the passover, and it reads "and when the evening was come he lay down at table with the twelve. And as they were eating he said, Verily I say to you, that one of you shall deliver me up".

J.T. Just so; and now we come to verse 26; it was "as they were eating". We are now coming to the Lord's supper, and as thus together the Lord introduces it. "Jesus, having taken the bread and blessed, broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said; Take, eat: this is my body. And having taken the cup and given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it. For this is my blood, that of the new covenant, that shed for many for remission of sins". Now, we are dealing with the Lord's supper in Matthew. It is found elsewhere of course, especially in Luke; but we are dealing with it in Matthew, the assembly gospel which has in mind to deal with things drastically. In fact there is no word really strong enough to use except the word 'drastically'. Matthew is a drastic gospel, and if we want to be in the fellowship we have to make allowance for this severe character of the gospel of Matthew; because the Lord does not intend to be loose or light in dealing with those who are actually or nominally partakers of the Lord's supper. He intends to deal with things in reality, to deal with them drastically so that we are real in what we are doing. I thought it was necessary to touch all this in view of what is in mind at this last reading, that we might be sincere in what we are doing in partaking of the Lord's supper.

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A.J.E.W. Chapter 16 seems to assert the secureness of the assembly's position: "Hades' gates shall not prevail against it". Does that establish a kind of firm platform on which we may take the Supper to be strengthened in it?

J.T. Very good. Proceed on that please.

A.J.E.W. I was thinking of the firmness of the assembly's position, that as we come together we are connected with what is secure, and the Supper as belonging to the assembly is part of that. Is that just?

J.T. Quite so; it is what is secure, and that is what is built on the foundation; as the Lord says, "On this rock I will build ...."; it shows the security and firmness and solidity in the building, the structure.

A.J.E.W. I wondered if that would connect also with the last scripture, the Lord being with us to the end, as if this thought of solidity that attaches to the assembly runs right through?

J.T. It does, as we are keeping His commandments. The question is whether we are keeping the commandments, and they go right through. The dispensation goes right through from the beginning till now, at this very moment in which we are here in Washington; we have still this matter of solidity and the participation in the Lord's supper. I do not believe the Lord will allow it to be surrendered again, it is to go on to the end. I believe that it will go on to the end.

J.H.P. So He connects it all with Himself here. I was thinking of "my time", "my disciples", and then "my body" and "my blood". Our brother has spoken of secureness. Does not the Lord in that way link the whole position up with Himself?

J.T. And then the position of Peter. I wanted to touch on Peter because of the peculiar character of the foundation of the structure of which Peter is a

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stone; Peter has a peculiar place, and yet in the result we shall see that Paul has finally the first place. But solidity is connected with Peter; I believe that has to be particularly thought of in Matthew.

C.H.H. Would chapter 5 of 1 Corinthians, and then chapter 10 preceding the Supper prove that Paul was in agreement, so to speak, with Peter in Matthew 16? We are speaking about the necessity for a moral foundation. Would that be seen in Paul bringing to light the truth of chapter 5 of 1 Corinthians and also chapter 10 preceding the Supper?

J.T. It would. 1 Corinthians 5 has to do with discipline and we cannot get along without discipline; we have got to face it. If brethren are to come into fellowship, they have got to face the fact that discipline will accompany the position. And so 1 Corinthians deals with that. A certain one was guilty, very guilty; he had his father's wife, such a sin as that! That is, such a sin is possible amongst the brethren, those actually in fellowship; such a sin is possible. I thought it was necessary to touch all of these points in view of what we are dealing with.

Ques. Is that why it is only in Matthew's account that we have "for remission of sins"?

J.T. Just so; the remission of sins is connected with the Lord's supper, so that it is on somewhat lower ground than the ordinary position of the Supper as in the epistle to the Corinthians.

A.R. It looks as if they were not keeping the feast in chapter 5, because Paul says, "Let us keep the feast".

J.T. Yes; he says, 'When you come together, this is not the Lord's supper'; although it was nominally or ostensibly the Lord's supper, really it was not that.

Ques. Was there delinquency? You have spoken of delinquency, and I was thinking of 1 Corinthians 11:30, where it says, "On this account many among

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you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep". Is that the discipline?

J.T. That is just the thought. Proceed further there, please.

Ques. "But if we judged ourselves, so were we not judged. But being judged, we are disciplined of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. So that, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, wait for one another. If any one be hungry, let him eat at home, that ye may not come together for judgment. But the other things, whenever I come, I will set in order".

J.T. So that the Lord's supper is not really food in a literal sense, it is food in a spiritual sense; and since we have to eat, let us eat at home. We do not eat in the assembly because the assembly is too precious and too great and too glorious to make it a matter of mere eating; there is to be nothing of the kind in the assembly.

C.F.E. So that a state of self-judgment precedes the Supper, does it not?

J.T. Exactly.

V.C.L. Matthew 5 speaks of hungering and thirsting after righteousness. Would not the thought of appropriation therefore come into the Supper?

J.T. Quite so; hungering and thirsting after righteousness, not after literal food, but after righteousness. Let us have plenty of that!

A.B.P. Is it important that when the Lord Jesus confirmed the Supper through Paul, even though speaking from heaven, He refers to the night in which He was delivered up? I was thinking of the Lord as having passed out of time conditions, and yet that particular night is known in heaven as "the night in which he was delivered up".

J.T. Just so. It is the great section relating to the Lord's supper, and it is one of the most important

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things that we can touch on, I think, at this very time.

F.J.F. What does it mean in 1 Corinthians 11 by the words, "shall be guilty in respect of the body"? "So that whosoever shall eat the bread, or drink the cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty in respect of the body and of the blood of the Lord".

J.T. How serious that is, guilty in respect of "the body and of the blood of the Lord", to be guilty of that, and yet to be nominally in fellowship! That is the point that one is so impressed with it at this very minute, what all this means as to our very selves who are actually in fellowship, lest any of these things should come upon us.

W.W.M. Is that the reason that in Matthew 18, we have the question of discipline and assembly judgment coming up in the assembly? If a man does not hear the assembly the result is solemn, for that is intended to get us regulated so that we shall be right for the Supper. Is that it?

J.T. Just so, "Tell it to the assembly"; that is, if he is guilty of anything that should be told to the assembly he is in a terrible condition, he is in a most dangerous condition, in fact involving the whole position of the truth in connection with the assembly. If he does not listen to what is told him, if he does not listen to testimony in the mouth of two or three witnesses, it is so serious.

R.W.S. Might the remission of sins bear upon any one of us as we come to the Lord's supper? There is time then to judge ourselves for sins or sin before we break bread.

J.T. And there is need of it, because there is so much lightness with us. At a time like this when we are together for development of the truth there may be a lot of lightness, holiday-making attached to it, so that with some there is no sense of reality in it.

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And that is what we want to avoid and to be clear of.

G.H. In 1 Corinthians 11:28 it says, "But let a man prove himself, and thus eat of the bread, and drink of the cup". "Prove himself", is that the thought of self-judgment?

J.T. Quite so; that is that you are sure you are right in what you are holding or professing; that you prove yourself; not that somebody else has to come and prove it but you prove it, you prove yourself.

B.W. How does the matter of "wait for one another", come in? "So that, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, wait for one another" (verse 33).

J.T. Well, we are to be concerned to consider for each other so that things may proceed happily and freely in the assembly. We are dealing with assembly matters. It is better to wait for one another than to be irregular and carrying on in a way that is out of order in the assembly.

B.W. I wondered if it linked with Acts 20 where Paul gave a discourse. Was that not preceding the Lord's supper there?

J.T. Yes, that is exactly what happened. So that Paul discoursed at length, meaning that there was a good deal to look into, a matter which the Corinthians had not done.

L.W. In this same chapter it speaks of "not distinguishing the body". What is involved in that, "distinguishing the body"?

J.T. It is finding out what it means, what is involved in it; distinguishing it is to discover what it means, what is implied in the body in the Lord's supper.

R.P. As to this matter of the remission of sins, would you bring that in in the thanksgiving?

J.T. If it were necessary, if I had any anxiety because there were unjudged sins in anyone in the company, I would not hesitate to bring it in.

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R.W.S. Just like the word that Paul gave before the Supper; conditions may require it.

J.T. We almost invariably have something of that kind at the Lord's supper, though usually after the Supper instead of before it; but it is in view of getting things right if they are not right, and if they are right to confirm them.

Ques. Is there a principle involved in 'waiting for one another', to allow for a visiting brother to break the bread?

J.T. I doubt it very much.

Rem. You were speaking about brethren going around the country visiting meetings, and you said that brethren in a locality would generally expect a visiting brother to serve by breaking the bread; and you spoke of that as being acceptable.

J.T. It is quite orderly; I think that what we are saying now really represents the facts that we all have experienced, that we do recognise and respect a brother who is visiting us. It is a common thing amongst the brethren.

Rem. I thought it was a privilege to serve the brethren that way, and therefore if one does visit a meeting it is a great honour to serve the brethren.

J.T. I think it is, and I think it is generally accepted that if a brother is visiting and has ability to serve they make way for him in that particular service so that the emblems may be appropriated. That is what it means, that the emblems are there and certain things are to be done so that they may be properly appropriated in the Lord's supper.

G.G.B. Would it help us at all to know in whose house the Supper took place? They asked the question, "Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" Now just before that we read that He was in a house in Bethany, Simon the leper's house, and lay at table there.

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J.T. It must mean the house of a brother that was respected, and a brother that had convenience or means for that purpose. I would think that is about all it means. What would you say yourself?

G.G.B. I was wondering why it speaks of Simon the leper's house. You were speaking of those who perhaps were partaking of the Supper in a mere formal manner, and I was wondering whether there was something for us to learn from this mention of the house; whether the Supper should be eaten in a setting where we have a sense of the terribleness of sin. This One had come in to do away with it for us, and then comes the appreciation of Mary in pouring the ointment upon His head.

J.T. What is in your mind about Simon the leper?

G.G.B. I was only thinking that Simon the leper was one who had been healed of leprosy; and that here was a place where they had actually known and seen the presence and the terrible reality of sin, and here is the One who is now on the point of going into death to do away with it and its power, and from that would flow out true appreciation for this One.

J.T. Just so. Some have thought that Simon the leper was Martha's husband, and it may have been so. How simple things are amongst the saints really when we come to actual facts.

Rem. So that a brother in Brooklyn has offered his house to fill a breach so that the Lord's supper can be held there.

J.T. Very good. There are too many in that meeting, and so he has offered his house to be used for the extra number until the time the room is built. We are very thankful too that there is such growth in that meeting.

F.H.L. It seems to be an unnamed brother whose house was opened for the Supper, as it was an unnamed woman who anointed His head.

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J.T. Quite so. Now that our brother's house has been opened, as has been said, there is more liberty for the service.

F.J.F. The fact of its being in Simon the leper's house and in all simplicity would free it of all that is outwardly ecclesiastical.

J.T. Just so, and if a man, for instance, had been a drunkard or the like, and he is restored to God, it is all the more satisfactory and glorious that he is restored and brought into the assembly, and then to function in the assembly. Really that is what christianity implies, it is recovery. We have here today several that I know of who were once elsewhere and are now restored to the truth.

A.B.P. Does Simon the leper's house in principle link on with our Roman position, that where our members once were instruments of unrighteousness and of sin they are now presented to God?

J.T. Very good.

A.N.W. All the evil counselling against the Lord was in the palace of the high priest.

J.T. Yes, that helps too from another angle, and shows that what was in the palace of the high priest was the devilish side of it. They were counselling what they could do to get rid of the Lord, to destroy Him, and yet they were priests; they were men of that type.

R.P. Is the eating that you refer to in the sense of John 6:54, "He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood"? Is there any connection?

J.T. Well, there is a connection, because it is not literal; what is spiritual is meant. Spiritual features of the truth are characteristic of John.

R.W.S. In the eating and the drinking and then the singing of a hymn, and then in going out to the mount of Olives, is there a suggestion of the order of the service? I know that comes in Corinthians,

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but is there a suggestion of bringing the Spirit in, in the mount of Olives?

J.T. Oh, I think so. You would expect that there should be room made for the Spirit Himself. I was-thinking just today of the three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who come in in the last chapter, where it speaks of baptising "to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"; there are three divine Persons and They are all engaged; They are all ready and available to serve the Lord's people.

F.J.F. Should we be always ready to serve Them? We are perhaps needing help as to what is suitable when we are together. A great deal has been said as to when the Spirit should be addressed in the service. While the Supper is being celebrated we would not feel free then, would we, to speak to the Holy Spirit?

J.T. I do not see why we should not.

F.J.F. I was thinking of what we enjoyed at Birmingham in 1949. There was a great deal of light thrown upon the matter then as to the service of the Spirit and of the Lord as we are found together, that the Spirit would be there to support us. I think it was said that the Lord Himself and the Holy Spirit are there in order that we should have access to the Father, and that anything that would hinder that should be eliminated.

J.T. I go with that fully.

F.J.F. Some I know were at the time too much occupied with worshipping the Spirit, even as the Supper was being celebrated, and afterwards, without mentioning the Lord at all, or the Father. But you greatly helped us in that reading by pointing out that the gracious office of the Lord and that of the Spirit was to enable us to reach what divine Persons had before Them, to reach the Father as the end to which everything is moving.

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J.T. Just so; so that the Father is to be worshipped. That was one of the main thoughts, that the Son and the Spirit would come in to make that effective; because the assembly has in mind, not only the worship of the Son and of the Spirit, but of the Father Himself: "they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth" (John 4:24).

G.H. So it says, "The Father seeks such as his worshippers".

J.T. Just so, "the Father seeks such", that is the word used.

V.C.L. Would not a heart that is properly self-judged and therefore available to the Spirit, be free to speak to the Spirit at any time, so long as the order is maintained that it is the Lord's supper and that the Father is reached? The Spirit might come into the matter at any time He wishes, might He not?

J.T. Quite so. There are three divine Persons and They are all available to us, but available on certain principles.

A.J.E.W. Is there not a beautiful unison about verse 30? "And having sung a hymn, they went out". It is not said they were told to sing a hymn; it was suitable to the moment. The Lord and the disciples were together in it and moved in it.

J.T. Very beautiful, I think; one of the most beautiful touches. "Having sung a hymn", not a psalm but a hymn, the word used in Hebrews 2. I would like to turn to that for a moment: "I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises", or 'hymn thee'. I think it is beautiful how all that comes in. The brethren should all just become enlarged and restful in all that we have just been saying, especially now in Hebrews 2, because it is a question of the service of God in the full sense. "For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I

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will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises. And again, I will trust in him". That is a wonderful passage and enters into this present reading, this present moment, for all of us -- brothers and sisters -- to get into the reality of the service of God as opened up in that passage.

A.R. Does that expression, "in the midst of the assembly", involve all the saints on the earth?

J.T. Well, I suppose you might say that, but of course there are saints that are really saints that are not capable of having, or fit to have, part in the assembly; some are under discipline.

A.R. I was thinking that it is more than a local position. For instance, we broke bread at different local assemblies this morning, but the Lord singing "in the midst of the assembly" is more than that, is it not? I was wondering if it involves all the saints as in the light of the assembly today.

J.T. I would say it does; but then you take Presbyterians, Methodists and others; many of them are saints but they cannot have part in the service because they are not governed by right principles.

A.R. I was thinking about what the Lord has on earth in the assembly; I mean He comes into our localities where we are. Someone said this morning that He comes into the garden, but the assembly is really more than the idea of a garden, is it not?

J.T. I would say it is. The word 'assembly' is more than a garden certainly; a garden is another idea.

A.R. It is circumscribed, and the assembly is not circumscribed.

J.W.B. Not the local position is what our brother means.

L.L.P. You pointed out that there were two eatings. Is the first an allusion to the passover in Exodus 12? They sang in relation to that in

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Exodus 15:1; it says, "Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song", and it appears to me a very intelligent thing to do. It says, "Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song to Jehovah, and spoke, saying, I will sing unto Jehovah, for he is highly exalted: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea". It has a direct allusion to what had taken place. Now going back to the Supper, we get in verse 30, "And having sung a hymn, they went out to the mount of Olives". What authority have we for singing before we have broken the bread and taken the cup? According to this setting they broke the bread first and then sang.

J.T. You mean that here in Washington when the brethren come together at the Lord's day morning meeting, they begin with a song. Is that what you mean?

L.L.P. We do so in all the assemblies.

J.T. That is true; in all the assemblies so far as I know we begin with a song.

L.L.P. Well, what is the authority for beginning with a song in the light of the order given here, that after they had eaten they sang a hymn and went out to the mount of Olives?

J.T. We begin with a song, but not the same kind of a song that we end with. We do not begin with the song that we end with; that is to say we do not go out by the same door by which we came in. That is the truth of the assembly. It is a happy thing so far as I see, when we come together on the first day of the week to have a song. It is quite right because we have a hymn book and we have suitable songs to sing for the glory of God or the edification of the saints, and we should use these hymns. Then the next thing is that we should differentiate, for there are different hymns. We do not use the same hymns for the beginning of the meeting that we use for the end or the middle, and that is because we are taught

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as to the use of hymns. God has greatly blessed the brethren in the way He has taught us as to the use of hymn books and hymns. Some of us during the past fifty years have had a great deal of concern about the use of hymns, because the right kind of hymns are a great matter in the service of God.

R.W.S. Matthew does not give the order of the Supper, does he? Do we not go to Corinthians for that?

J.T. That is what I would say, quite so.

Rem. It says in Colossians that they were to be "teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs".

J.T. Just so; there are three kinds there: psalms, hymns, spiritual songs. Psalms are experience, hymns are glorification, and spiritual songs are just songs that are spiritual.

T.N.W. The Lord Jesus evidently joins in this singing in Matthew 26 and in Hebrews 2, does He not? But not so at the first hymn of the Supper?

J.T. The Lord leaves matters with us. I think the Lord would say, 'It is very happy for them to sing, because it promotes their fellowship to start with a song, with a hymn, or whatever it may be'. We do the same thing in Bible readings and in all kinds of ministry, and the Lord is approving this use of hymns in our services. It promotes good feelings and fellowship.

J.S. It brings all the saints into the matter.

J.T. It does, brothers and sisters alike. A psalm is experience, but a hymn I think is something to be jubilant over, to promote good feeling.

E.A.L. It has been remarked that 'unity body-wise lays the basis for union'. Would you not say that hymns unite the brethren? I mean all the body of the saints is united in the hymn.

J.T. Just so, brothers and sisters alike. I should not like to hear a sister lead the singing, but if there

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was not anybody else to do it there would be no reason why she should not. In any case the idea is that we join together in happy feeling, and holy feeling too, which God promotes and confirms.

F.J.F. Has it anything to do with the steps up to the house? There were thirteen steps, songs of degrees.

J.T. Very good, I would agree with that too.

J.F. Would the right hymn at the opening stir the affections of the saints?

J.T. Very likely; I have noticed commonly that it is a happy thing for the brethren to join in a hymn. They know what they are doing, they know the meaning of the words, and it is an "intelligent service" (Romans 12:1). The expression "intelligent service" is a right one.

Rem. One hymn says that 'the Spirit strikes the chord' (Hymn 142 and Hymn 211). It gets us started on a spiritual line.

J.T. It does.

R.W.S. We know what to do; is not that the point? Paul says, "I speak as to intelligent persons". We know what to do, we do not need to have a set of rules on a board.

J.T. That is just what I was thinking.

J.H.P. Do not these verses suggest the liberty that the saints have, particularly the verse referred to? "And having sung a hymn, they went out to the mount of Olives". Have we not much liberty in these matters, whilst observing the principles that have been taught us?

J.T. We have. It was several years since we had the long sessions on the question of hymns and what their import was, and we were greatly helped. We have a wonderful selection of hymns now, and they are greatly promoting fellowship amongst the brethren and the service of God.

G.G.B. The Lord gave thanks for, or blessed, the bread. Is there something in that for us?

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J.T. There is. He has led in all these things and we learn from what He did; we go by what He did. I think the brethren have greatly learned during the last fifty years in all these matters.

T.N.W. Paul speaks of custom in the assemblies of God. That is a good matter, do you think?

J.T. "We have no such custom", he says, "nor the assemblies of God" (1 Corinthians 11:16).

E.A.L. At the end of Luke the disciples are spoken of as being "continually in the temple praising and blessing God" (Luke 24:53). So we have hymns of praise today.

J.T. Just so, "praising and blessing God", that is what they were going on with.

R.P. What had you in mind in reading chapter 28? Was it to link on with what we get in chapter 26?

J.T. I just wanted to show what the Lord intended the eleven disciples to finish with in the gospel of Matthew. Notice there is a breach in the number: there are eleven instead of twelve, which is a humbling thing. But the first of Acts shows how this was repaired. What I had in mind now was that "the eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they did homage to him; but some doubted. And Jesus coming up spoke to them, saying, All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth", a final word for the dispensation that we are in. This is the Lord Himself. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you. And behold, I am with you all the days"; notice, these very days today, "I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age". That is to say, until God takes up the millennial situation the Lord is going to stay

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with us, and He is with us today: "I am with you all the days". Very wonderful and very precious.

J.H.P. Do you connect this mountain in any way with the Supper as a continuation of what took place on the mount of Olives?

J.T. There are seven mountains so far as I remember, in the gospel of Matthew. We had the first one in the fifth chapter and this last chapter brings in the final one. Have you some further word about that?

J.H.P. I was just wondering whether in connecting the two chapters you had this one in mind as being a continuation of what was before them at the time of the Supper; or whether as being the Lord's last words it would connect more with the mountain in the fifth chapter that we had two days ago?

J.T. Oh, I think I would keep it by itself; it is passage a by itself. It is a separate thing; this paragraph is a separate consideration. "The eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them". I think we just have to rest on that a bit and see the import of it as bearing upon our own position now at the end, until we come to the millennial period according to what we get elsewhere in the Scriptures.

A.B.P. Does this mountain link on with the suggestion we had earlier of the stability and the security of the whole position?

J.T. I think that is very good.

F.J.F. Does Galilee mean that He is now in reproach?

J.T. He is under reproach still. He is content to be under reproach, and we are content to be with Him in the reproach. That is the position.

V.C.L. Is there any link with what we had in Chicago, that Paul in writing to the Hebrews says "For ye have not come to the mount that might be

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touched ... but ye have come to mount Zion"? Does that confirm the position going through?

J.T. Just so, what we have come to; that is well worth reading again. We are come to something now in this chapter at the close of the gospel of Matthew, and it will help to read that passage which begins with a mountain. It says in Hebrews 12:22 - 24, "But ye have come to mount Zion; and to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, the universal gathering; and to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven; and to God, judge of all; and to the spirits of just men made perfect; and to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant; and to the blood of sprinkling, speaking better than Abel".

There are eight things mentioned. Well, now, we have not come to these things in the end of Matthew, but we have come to something. It says, "The eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them". That is to say the Lord had appointed to meet them at this mountain, and that is what is in mind in the finish of the gospel.

R.P. Some of us were reminded this morning that the Lord not only comes to us from heaven but also from the sphere of testimony.

J.T. Very good, that very matter has come to the minds of the brethren, that we do not come from heaven, we are here in the sphere of testimony and suffering. We might as well accept that and the Lord is honouring in us the fact that we do accept it. The Lord is saying to us that He is interested in the assembly and the assembly's affairs; and we expect Him to come to us and He comes. He does not come from heaven exactly, He is here in that sense according to what this chapter teaches, He is here always: "Behold, I am with you all the days", it says.

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R.P. I thought there was a very beautiful reference made in connection with that where the bridegroom, or the masculine speaker in Song of Songs 5:2 says, "My head is filled with dew, my locks with the drops of the night".

J.T. Yes.

A.R.. I have heard you refer to the Lord coming from the sphere of testimony and had difficulty in working it out in my own mind until you referred to Saul of Tarsus and the Lord saying, "Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me?" (Acts 9:4).

J.T. Very good; that is the passage that settled me as to the whole matter, that the Lord is saying to a man, Saul of Tarsus, that he is persecuting Him. It does not mean that the Lord is in heaven, the Lord is here in the sphere of testimony and suffering.

W.W.M. Would you say that it is a matter of obedience here? It says in verse 7, "Go quickly and say to his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and behold, he goes before you into Galilee, there shall ye see him. Behold, I have told you", and then in verse 16, "But the eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they did homage to him". So that the answer to their obedience in moving into Galilee was that they saw the Lord.

J.T. They followed up what He said to them, showing that it was a question of obedience. It was the eleven disciples, because they had lost one, that is Judas, in the meantime; but the reparation took place in the Acts, the other disciple was provided so that there were twelve. So it says here that "the eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they did homage to him: but some doubted. And Jesus coming up spoke to them, saying, All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth".

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But He is on earth for the moment. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations", notice that, "make disciples of all the nations", a great command, an immense command; "make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name" -- notice this "to", not 'in' -- "to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", the three divine Persons. They are all active and in Their own positions in the economy. And then it says further, "teaching them" -- that is the nations -- "to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you". That is a great command too, "all things whatsoever I have enjoined you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age". It is most striking and most confirming as to what is meant.

A.J.E.W. Is there not a peculiar attractiveness about the word "completion"? It is not just the end in point of time, but it is something that is arriving at completion.

J.T. Very good.

A.B.P. Is it like the hem on the Lord's garment?

J.T. That is very good, too.

Rem. If we are under orders, as it has been spoken of, we shall get to the end.

J.T. If we are under orders -- that is the great difficulty in christendom, that people are not under orders. Many young people, nominally in fellowship, are not under orders.

Rem. We start in Matthew with the wise men; they did what they were told, and the position was held. And so here, the disciples went to Galilee and they were helped.

A.B.P. Does the reference to "all the nations" link on with what comes in later in Paul, this being the assembly gospel? I was thinking how the twelve were slow to take on the nations. The great service of the nations was Paul's, and I wondered as this

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is the assembly gospel if we find a link here with the Acts?

J.T. I think that is true; "Lo, we turn to the nations", he says in Acts 13:46.

R.W.S. Is "make" a characteristic Matthew word? "I will make you fishers of men", the Lord said in Matthew 4, involving processing and labour and all that.

J.T. Very good, a characteristic Matthew word.

E.E.H. What is the significance of this formula at the end of Matthew that we do not get in the other gospels -- "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"? How does that fit into the general theme of the assembly gospel, that all the Persons of the Godhead are mentioned?

J.T. Well, it is practical truth that we should know. Is that not so? We should all know these things. Paul says, "In reading ... ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery" (Ephesians 3:4). The question is how much we know, and we should not be ashamed to speak of what we know, Paul was not; he said, I want you to know my knowledge of the mystery. So why should we not know what is to be known?

W.McK. Is it not encouraging for us that though the position is outwardly weak, though there are only eleven disciples, yet the Lord brings in the fulness of the knowledge of each divine Person in that position?

J.T. And then, as we already remarked, the remedy for the weak position is in the Acts, the twelfth apostle is provided there so that the administrative side is carried through; and hence you have the twelve apostles of the Lamb at the end of the book of Revelation. The twelve apostles are there; they are not the eleven but the twelve.

J.H.P. Does not this Name, this wonderful Name, give character to the whole age which is being completed

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here? Although there is much ignorance in christendom and misuse of divine names, yet for all that this Name gives character to the dispensation in which we are. Would you say that?

J.T. I would indeed. I think it is all the more wonderful that God has given the great advantage to every one of us that is here today of having part in the divine mind as to the assembly. And it is going to be completed, it is not going to be a remnant, it is not going to be that, the Lord is going to have a complete assembly. Every part, every element of it is going to be there.

B.W. It says here, "They saw him". Would the seeing of the Lord give character to what flows out, such as the preaching of the word? There are preachings that go out where the persons preaching know nothing, we might say, of seeing the Lord.

J.T. Well, the preaching goes on, as Paul could say, "That by me the preaching might be fully known" (2 Timothy 4:17). That is the idea, "the preaching might be fully known". It is not partially known but fully known. And what is known is to come out in the assembly; the whole idea of the assembly is to come out; it is not to be a remnant, it is to be the whole thought of the assembly. It is marvellous to have that in the mind, so that as soon as the assembly is completed she will go to heaven and the millennial condition will come in. The millennial condition will come into its place because God is waiting for it, He has got it in His mind; the millennium is, you might say, the seventh day of the week. The end of the whole period is in the millennium, the millennial day.

F.J.F. So the prophetic clock has stopped till the assembly is completed?

J.T. That is what has often been said; it has stopped until that moment, and then God will begin with something else and He will finish it.

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And then we have "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13).

G.H. "Baptising them to the name", you mentioned. What is the thought of that?

J.T. Meaning that the bearing is to -- towards Them; the bearing is towards the Persons. It is not 'in' the name, but "to the name".

F.J.F. Would it be right to say we can never separate the Lord from His body? You were speaking of Acts 9. Is that what He taught Paul?

J.T. I would say that. You cannot separate Him from His body; in Acts 9 that is what is meant. Will you quote what is in your mind?

F.J.F. It is what you referred to already, what the Lord said to Paul, "Why dost thou persecute me?", that He was here with His body. Would that be right?

J.T. Quite so; it was the body He was alluding to really, but the Lord Himself was literally in heaven. Literally He was there but the body was here, that was the idea of it exactly. Paul and others were persecuting it, they were doing that.

F.J.F. I would like to ask a final question. You remember that years ago there was a controversy with regard to the 'abiding presence'. It was said that there was the 'abiding presence' of the Lord in the assembly, and you challenged that.

J.T. Yes, I said He comes and goes, and others said He always remained here. But that was not true, that was not literally true, because the Lord said, "I am coming to you"; "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you" (John 14:18). Others were saying that the Lord was here permanently, which is not so. Now that may seem to conflict with what we have been saying, but it does not; because Scripture is a whole, it is one whole and it does not contradict itself. The Lord has gone into heaven, angels and principalities being made subject

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to Him. He has gone into heaven, there is no doubt about it. But then He is here too, and that is the wonderful thing that is mysterious; it is mystery; we are dealing with mystery, which some of us are not prepared to accept really; but we are dealing with mystery all the time.

Ques. Does that link with the presence of the Spirit?

J.T. It does, quite so, that the Spirit is here maintaining things; the Spirit is here maintaining things in regard of it all.

A.R. The Lord said Himself when here, "The Son of man who is in heaven". I suppose we have to keep that in mind.

J.T. Exactly.

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GOD'S THOUGHT OF A CITY AS SEEN IN JERUSALEM (1)

Luke 2:25 - 38

J.T. What is generally in mind is the idea of a city, and that thought as set out in Jerusalem. We may look at Jerusalem first as seen in the gospel of Luke, how it is presented there; and then as seen in the book of Revelation. The same name is used in both places, only in Luke it is 'Jerusalem' simply but in the book of Revelation it is 'new Jerusalem'. That is the thought one would like the brethren to get hold of at this time, the Spirit helping us, the thought of Jerusalem and how it is carried forward from the old to the new and into eternity: "new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God" (Revelation 21:2). There is no city mentioned more, perhaps, in the Scriptures than Jerusalem. But the thought is that we might get the idea of it as presented peculiarly in Luke, and then link it on with Revelation; so that the principal scriptures before us now are these two books. First we might see how Luke's references to Jerusalem are regarded by the Spirit of God, especially as seen here in this man who was in Jerusalem, as it says, "a man in Jerusalem". That is the thought that perhaps God would place in our minds; not simply the idea of Jerusalem, because that was very common; but of "a man in Jerusalem". And then what it says of him is the next thing: "whose name was Simeon; and this man was just and pious, awaiting the consolation of Israel" -- notice that, he is awaiting something, and it is not anything ordinary -- "and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it was divinely communicated to him by the Holy Spirit" (notice the place the Holy Spirit has with this man), "it was divinely communicated to him by the Holy Spirit, that he should not see death before he should see the Lord's

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Christ". And then again, "he came in the Spirit" -- notice that; it is a question of the Spirit -- "he came in the Spirit into the temple". Many had gone into the temple, but perhaps no one so far had gone in by the Spirit -- "and as the parents brought in the child Jesus that they might do for him according to the custom of the law, he received him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now thou lettest thy bondman go, according to thy word, in peace; for mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples; a light for revelation of the Gentiles and the glory of thy people Israel". In this passage we get, I think, the two ideas combined, Jerusalem, and the Spirit as linked up with it; and that will carry us through to the book of Revelation where we shall see the holy city "coming down out of the heaven from God". I think the brethren will agree that in all this there will be food or material for us for this season to help us in the truth; and that is what we need -- to be helped in the truth. And as referring to what we said about man, I was thinking particularly of the Lord Jesus as gone into heaven; it is not simply that He has come down and accomplished redemption, but He is "gone into heaven", He is there now, "angels and authorities and powers being subjected to him" (1 Peter 3:22).

S.McC. In the cities of the world there is great room for the expansion of man according to the flesh; but your reference to Simeon would draw our attention to manhood according to God, would it not?

J.T. That is just what I was thinking. It is a question of man, what God is doing through man. Scripture says as to this city in which we are and all other cities like it, that their day is come; it is only a question of time, a few days, till the matter will be finished. "God ... hath appointed a day, in the

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which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained" (Acts 17:31). I think it is well to have that in mind because it gives us victory, which we greatly need, victory of a right kind that is dependent on redemption; but especially on the Spirit coming down from heaven, Christ having gone into heaven. Presently He will come out again, He is coming, and there are those that "love his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:8); not His coming simply, but "his appearing", what will happen when He appears.

A.N.W. The ending up of the cities of this world will be in the great Babylon; the term 'great' is used in connection with it but the word in connection with Jerusalem is 'holy', it is the "holy city".

J.T. Great Babylon, the most terrible thing to be considered as to evil. We shall come to that in the book of Revelation; or rather, we shall come to the idea of the heavenly city, the heavenly Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, because we are going to centre our thoughts, not in the idea of a city merely, but in the idea of Jerusalem, because that is going through.

C.A.M. You were stressing the thought of the Spirit in connection with Simeon, that it says "the Holy Spirit was upon him", and that "it was ... communicated to him by the Holy Spirit", and then that "he came in the Spirit into the temple". Would you say something about the difference between the Holy Spirit being upon him and his coming in the Spirit into the temple?

J.T. That is a good question, and I hope your remarks will bring out something from the brethren.

J.W. Would Simeon have a special place in the mind of God because of the moral features marking the man?

J.T. Clearly God had been speaking to him about his decease; "Now thou lettest thy bondman go,

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according to thy word", he says. "And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was just and pious, awaiting the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it was divinely communicated to him by the Holy Spirit" -- notice that -- "that he should not see death before he should see the Lord's Christ. And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and as the parents brought in the child Jesus that they might do for him according to the custom of the law, he received him into his arms" -- think of that, think of the gracious attitude he set out there! -- "he received him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord" -- 'Jehovah', I suppose it is -- "now thou lettest thy bondman go, according to thy word". It is according to the divine word, the word of God, that this happened. So that Simeon is peculiarly distinguished, I should say, in heaven. He was probably kept waiting for this very purpose. God has His men and He holds them for a purpose, and when the purposed time comes they are used. And so Simeon refers to that -- "according to thy word", he says; things are done "according to thy word", and it is "by the Holy Spirit". That would bring out all that has been so pressed on us recently, the place the Spirit should have. He has it; thank God, we can see it. The Spirit of God is getting His own place amongst the brethren.

H.B. The meaning of Simeon's name is 'hearing'; is that important in view of this matter?

J.T. Very suggestive, it is a time for that; not only for speaking but for hearing, and of course that would refer to the sisters particularly, because they are the ones to hear, and to promote the truth in a simple, affectionate way at the present time.

A.D.S. Where it says, "He received him into his arms", the 'he' is in italics. Would that mean 'such a one' received Him into his arms?

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J.T. Just so; the italics just stress the fact; it is important that that man was in the mind of heaven for the moment. It is good to think that persons are distinguished; the Lord loves to distinguish people and if He does distinguish them there is a good reason for it. These words in italics have just that in mind; and I think it would be to show that God loves to distinguish His people. But then it is a question of whether we are worthy of distinction.

J.T.Jr. Would the idea of 'a man' show that God has not given up His thought as to man? And then Jerusalem, He has not given up His thought as to that either. God will have them as He ever designed, as man and as Jerusalem.

J.T. That brings up a great deal because the idea of man is a relatively recent thought with God. We can tell how old the being is historically, but as regards the angels we cannot tell, nor can we tell how many there are. God keeps things in mystery and He has a right to do it. He keeps the idea of angels in mystery, but He has them; as it says, "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14), showing how important man is. Then as to what has just been said, that God has not given up His idea about man, of course He has not. He has only just begun, you might say. Going back to Genesis, we might say that man was first mentioned by Moses: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion" (Genesis 1:26). The man is the masculine, he is mentioned first, but the woman is included; it is a plural idea because the same word covers both man and woman. There are several words used for 'man', God is not confined to simply one word to convey the thought. I am greatly hoping that we shall get something in Luke about Jerusalem. It is seen in a comely, holy way in Luke and I confine myself to

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that book for the moment and then to the book of Revelation.

J.T.Jr. Is not the first allusion to Jerusalem in Genesis 14 in regard to Melchisedec? Salem is the idea, is it not?

J.T. I think that is good, that puts the thought where it should be, and it brings out what a wonderful man Abraham was too. We are considering Jerusalem only in the good sense now, because it can only be used in the good sense to bring out what we are speaking of. It says, "There was a man in Jerusalem", and the first thing about him is that he is a spiritual man.

J.T.Jr. There is some link with the priestly side in him, I suppose, that such a man would refer to what was for God.

J.T. Simeon waited for the consolation of Israel, and the sister, the prophetess, waited for redemption in Jerusalem; she "spoke of him to all those who waited for redemption in Jerusalem". We want to keep to the idea of Jerusalem, a significant thought.

C.D. In Jeremiah 51:50 we get the words, "Let Jerusalem come into your mind". In the face of all the menace of Babylon and all that was around, the word was, "Let Jerusalem come into your mind".

J.T. That is a good word for us today, because we want to connect everything up with Luke to get the full divine thought there; and then subsequently the thought of the continuance of Jerusalem in the sense of what is new, what is going into eternity. I think these are wonderful things, and we should keep them in our minds and carry them away with us.

C.A.M. In connection with this matter of man being 'in Jerusalem', is it not remarkable that Luke in making so much of manhood, of humanity, has just spoken in this chapter of "good pleasure in

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men"? Would it not follow that he takes up this man as in a right setting for the pleasure of God?

J.T. If it is "good pleasure in men", this man would certainly deserve to be thought of. "A man in Jerusalem", who is he, what can you say about him? The Spirit of God says quite a lot about him here. We want to get the full thought of what the Spirit of God has in mind here.

J.W. So that while Luke mentions Caesar Augustus and Cyrenius, and various things that were happening in the world, would you say he hastens on to get to this feature of Jerusalem?

J.T. Quite so. These other things you have just mentioned are simply politics, Caesar Augustus and the like; the Roman Empire is going to pieces presently, it will not last very long now.

F.K.C. Is there any connection with Psalm 122:2 - 4? "Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem. Jerusalem, which art built as a city that is compact together, whither the tribes go up, ... a testimony to Israel".

J.T. Quite so, that fits in perfectly. Say more about that.

F.K.C. I was thinking of this man with the whole testimonial position in his heart, and in the power of the Spirit of God; the service of God comes in too, for it says, "to give thanks unto the name of Jehovah. For there are set thrones for judgment, the thrones of the house of David" (verses 4,5). The Holy Spirit is with him, and he receives Christ into his arms as coming up by the word of the Spirit.

J.T. It is good to have the Psalms before us, because David will come before us presently, the sweet psalmist of Israel; he is mentioned two or three times in the book of Revelation; Christ is said to be "the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star" (Revelation 22:16).

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A.S.B. This is a great thought of God in relation to "a man in Jerusalem". All are pretty much acquainted with man's cities, but God's great thought that we are looking at now is to see a man in relation to Jerusalem, and the character of the man that one day shall prevail universally.

J.T. I am very glad of what you say. We are speaking of divine things, of Christ come down from heaven, and Christ gone up into heaven; and presently we shall come to Revelation where the heavenly city is coming down from God out of heaven; it is called 'new', and it is going into eternity. So it is needful for us to keep our minds ready for all that.

J.McK. You have been speaking of a teaching and a learning time. Would you say that Simeon in a way sets out both? He takes the Child Jesus into his arms, and he speaks; and then he says in verse 30, "For mine eyes have seen" -- the matter of seeing what God is doing.

J.T. Just so; how beautiful to think of him taking the Child into his arms! He has a priestly touch, he can take the Child into his arms, he is capable of doing it; he is just going to depart: "Now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace", he says, "according to thy word". God has been speaking to him about his departure. God is going to take him; so that he is ready; he is equal to the matter.

A.D.S. One was thinking that as a man in Jerusalem he was qualified for divine communications and revelations.

J.T. That is right, he was that kind of a man. So Augustus is brought in, as we said, but he is just a politician. But what we are dealing with now is a priest of God. God has been speaking to this man Simeon, and He is going to take him to Himself, according to His word. I do not say that he is going into heaven, because I suppose he died and the Lord has him. Presently we shall all be raised; we shall

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not only die; though as far as I am concerned I am not looking for death, I am looking for the Lord to come. And that is just the point that I think should be before all of us, the fact that the Lord is coming, and do we love His appearing? It is not only His coming but His appearing. It is the time for His appearing; the time has already come for it now, you might say.

C.C.T. Is there something in his name being mentioned? He is not only a man in Jerusalem, but his name is Simeon.

J.T. Just so, somebody has said that the word Simeon means 'hearing'. That would imply what he had already heard, and he had been talking with God Himself; he must have had converse with God, because he says, "according to thy word".

J.T.Jr. He is "just and pious". These moral features referred to must come in if we are to be rightly in our cities.

J.T. Does he not remind you of Cornelius? These are suitable men to be talking about. Cornelius was a pious man, and he had a message; he was to send for Peter and get a word from Peter, and he did get a word from him. The Holy Spirit came upon the hearers, a marvellous thing: "While Peter was yet speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were hearing the word" (Acts 10:44).

J.T.Jr. You get the idea of divine communications, do you not -- of how things are communicated?

J.T. Quite so; and Peter fits in in the Acts as to the communications that came through him to Cornelius. And then the Spirit of God fell upon them; while Peter was speaking the Holy Spirit came upon them. I think it is wonderful to get all these facts put together, each thing in its place.

We might well now proceed to our sister, Anna, if I may call her our sister, a prophetess. There is

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hardly a prophetess that I know of in the world today. I am not saying anything disrespectful about the sisters, but I hardly know of one prophetess. But there was one here; it was before the Holy Spirit came too that she was here. It would be good if we could get a few amongst us. Not that we want to hear sisters prophesying in the meetings. Some evidently prophesied in the beginning of christianity, Philip's daughters were four of them, four prophetesses. But I do not know of any such now. We can speak of them at a distance, as it were. When the Spirit of God came here there were persons who were prophetesses, such as Philip's daughters; they were daughters of an evangelist too. But now we want to touch on our sister, as I am calling her. It says, "And there was a prophetess, Anna, daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher" -- notice, her tribe is given -- "who was far advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity, and herself a widow up to eighty-four years; who did not depart from the temple, serving night and day with fastings and prayers; and she coming up the same hour gave praise to the Lord, and spoke of him to all those who waited for redemption in Jerusalem". That is the point to get to now, that this prophetess is linking up with Jerusalem as being the proper place in her mind for those who would wait for redemption. She is thinking of them and speaking of it to them; singling out those who waited for redemption in Jerusalem.

C.A.M. Would you say that the idea of redemption really means that she was looking for the glory, the time when Jerusalem will shine in glory?

J.T. I should think that; very good. We can see, without being too critical, how the brethren are getting on in these meetings by what we are talking about between the meetings. See what this woman talked about, how she was affected! She singled out

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those who were looking for redemption in Jerusalem, not in any other town, but in Jerusalem, a remarkable thing, I think.

J.T.Jr. So she fills out the thought in regard to Jerusalem; it would not be complete without her, would it?

J.T. Just so; and she has not simply the graces of a woman, but she is a prophetess. See how old she was! It is not easy to tell exactly how old she was, but I have a feeling that she was nearly 106 years old. But what is she going to be when you come into eternal things? What will this woman be then? And what is she now? She is thinking of persons who were looking for redemption in Jerusalem. Evidently she thought of every one of them and spoke to them. I think the brethren ought to think well over these things because what are we talking about between meetings here? Are we getting anything for our souls? It is all very well to say we had a good reading, but then what does that mean? What are we getting for our souls? This woman was speaking to the people who were looking for redemption in Jerusalem.

A.S.B. It says in chapter 1:65, "All these things were the subject of conversation", that is, all the activities in relation to the Spirit; but in relation to our sister it says, "She ... spoke of him", it is now the Person of the Lord Jesus.

J.T. Very good. I think we ought to enlarge on that; we want to get the full idea.

J.B. Would the thought in the city be complete as seen with Simeon the man and Anna the woman?

J.T. I think that is what we are limited to.

J.B. Would it be like what we have in 1 Corinthians 11:4,5, "every man praying or prophesying", and "every woman praying or prophesying"?

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J.T. Very good; 1 Corinthians makes way for all that. So that it would be quite right to bring it in here, especially the idea of a woman prophesying.

J.W. Would Anna represent the truth as seen in persons who are confirmed and fixed in their thoughts regarding the primary work of God?

J.T. The primary work of God, yes. These two are specially singled out by the Spirit of God, Simeon peculiarly so. He has been conversing with Jehovah, and Jehovah has been telling him that he is going to depart according to His word; Jehovah has been telling him that He is going to take him. Of course we say, according to Paul, "To depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Philippians 1:23). Simeon implies that the Lord has been telling him that He is going to take him, which would mean of course that he would die before the time for the Lord to come, which undoubtedly he did. And then as to Anna, if what I am saying is right she lived to be probably a hundred and six years of age, and you would not expect her to live any longer. Not that it says she died, but she was a remarkable woman in that she lived so long. Evidently she was thought highly of in heaven, and the Spirit of God was using her as a prophetess. These are wonderful things, I think, that we might easily make much of at a time like this: what these two persons are, Simeon and Anna.

J.W. So that while she was living the channel upwards was open in that she gave praise; and then testimonially "she ... spoke" to these persons.

J.T. Very good. Just so.

C.C.T. Is it worthy of note that a sister of this age in the close of her days would be found in fastings and prayers in regard to redemption in Jerusalem?

J.T. You say she was 'found' in fastings and prayers, very good; and then what she spoke about;

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that is the thing we are to think of, what we talk about when we come together; even at the intervals of these meetings, what are we talking about? Are we getting any gain from them?

C.C.T. I was thinking what an encouragement that would be to the sisters, that they might be found in this condition.

A.N.W. "Serving night and day", that is a great word; it says that of her too; she is wholly committed.

J.T.Jr. And she is right on time, "coming up the same hour", it says. The sisters should be up to all this that we are saying.

J.T. That is good, "the same hour", right on time.

J.McK. You referred to Anna being of the tribe of Asher. Does Moses' blessing of that tribe come out in display now in her? It says of Asher, "Asher shall be blessed with sons; let him be acceptable to his brethren, and let him dip his foot in oil" (Deuteronomy 33:24). I wondered if the idea of fruitfulness, and of walking -- figuratively -- in the power of the Spirit, was not seen in Anna in the place she had in the temple?

J.T. I think so, that is the idea, that she is in accord with her ancestors; her ancestry has come down from the Old Testament, and she is in entire accord with the Spirit of God as to her tribe. We shall see presently that the tribes of the sons of Israel are to appear in the heavenly city, so that she will be there.

A.D.S. Would you say that according to the scripture here she not only served Godward, but manward too in testimony, in that it says, "She coming up the same hour gave praise to the Lord and spoke of him to all those who waited for redemption in Jerusalem"?

J.T. Quite so; and that would mean that she

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was equal to man, because the word 'man' covers both man and woman, as we already said. She in the true sense was a man and a son; but she was also a prophetess, she was gifted from God to be that.

A.N.W. Would the absence of reference to the Spirit in her case denote that the matter is with her herself, substantially? There is no reference to the Spirit in connection with her.

J.T. But that does not matter, because she is a gifted woman whose value has come down to us; she is equal to the Old Testament saints, equal to the prophets.

A.N.W. I thought it denoted that what was there substantially was of God; what was in her soul subjectively.

J.T. Quite so. She has come down to us. Look at her age, look at what she is for God! If she is 106 years of age, which may be, she is likely to go to be with the Lord very shortly; you could quite understand that. But still, what is she substantially? She is a prophetess, and I think we ought to bear that in mind, that there have been such persons. We have not got them now, just as we said, but there were four of them even in the days after the Spirit came down, four of them, Philip's daughters.

S.McC. It says of her, "Serving night and day with fastings and prayers". She made the most of the nights as well as the days.

J.T. That is to be noticed -- her feet were dipped in oil as she moved along in the streets of Jerusalem. What a walk it was, what a testimony it was!

A.Macd. Would this be an encouragement to us to seek to find the silver pieces in our cities?

J.T. In saying, 'our cities', do you mean such as New York, or what? I think we use the word 'our' too much. These cities are going to destruction, not that I would say a word against the cities or the

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governors of them. But they do not belong to us really. We are in them but we do not say that they are wonderful cities. Paul said he was citizen of "no mean city", but we do not use that expression now. I do not know whether I am saying what is commendable to you?

A.Macd. Yes, I am thankful for it. I was thinking too of her speaking to all those who waited for redemption in Jerusalem. Do you think it would be an encouragement to us to seek to find the silver pieces?

J.T. Quite so, to find the silver pieces like the woman in Luke 15, you mean. She searched until she found the lost piece. That would be evangelical, it is an evangelical chapter. Timothy was told to do the work of an evangelist and that is an excellent word for the young men. We are looking for young men to take the place of some of us who are older so that the work should go on and the assembly be completed.

J.R.H. In regard of Anna not departing from the temple, was she not one abiding in the truth?

J.T. I would say that. We can see where her affections were, we can see that she was rightly in the place where she belonged, where you would expect to see her.

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GOD'S THOUGHT OF A CITY AS SEEN IN JERUSALEM (2)

Luke 24:33 - 53

J.T. The theme of Jerusalem is still in mind in this section of Luke. As we had it already today, we are not concerned so much about the general idea of a city or the general idea of Jerusalem, but the view of Jerusalem in the Scriptures which reaches its culmination in the book of Revelation; we are considering the thought of Jerusalem as it is carried through into eternal conditions. There it is called new Jerusalem. This chapter has all that in mind, and the breaking of bread enters into it; also the matter of some of them going away from the city and the Lord following them up and directing them back. They come back, showing that the city was in their minds. We can see in our hymns already sung today how it is in the mind of the Spirit of God in the service of God. No other city has had such a place as Jerusalem. We have already been speaking of "Jerusalem above", and singing that 'Jerusalem's in view'; so that it is clearly a thought of the Spirit of God in relation to the service of God, and the brethren are using it to that end. The point now would be to confirm us more fully as to it; and then ultimately, if the Lord spare us, we shall have further thoughts as to it in the book of Revelation where it is viewed as a city coming down from God out of heaven. It is indigenous to heaven, it is not an earthly thought at all, it is a heavenly thought, which is remarkable. But the name is so frequently used in the world, very much especially in recent times, that among us it should be reserved for the greatest heavenly thoughts, and that we have to do with these heavenly thoughts, we belong to them. Indeed we belong to Jerusalem too in that

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sense. She will come down from God out of heaven. I think if we are able to fix our minds on this line of the truth it will greatly help us and tend to detach us from this world; because that is the end in the mind of the Lord at the present time, that the ministry should detach us from this world and attach us to heaven. One of the most difficult things to understand is the idea of heaven and where it is, and how it can be said by Paul that he ascended to the third heaven. These are mysterious things but they belong to christianity; and we ourselves are mysterious, or ought to be. The assembly is a mystery: the very word 'mystery' is used as covering the idea of the assembly.

S.McC. There has been some allusion to the word, "Let every soul be subject to the authorities that are above him" (Romans 13:1). Is it in your mind that the assembly enters into that?

J.T. Will you read the section in question?

S.McC. "Let every soul be subject to the authorities that are above him. For there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God. So that he that sets himself in opposition to the authority resists the ordinance of God; and they who thus resist shall bring sentence of guilt on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to a good work, but to an evil one. Dost thou desire then not to be afraid of the authority? practise what is good, and thou shalt have praise from it; for it is God's minister to thee for good" (Romans 13:1 - 4).

J.T. The question in mind is as to the authorities, and Romans 13 deals with this subject. The authorities referred to are above us; whether they be in the assembly they are morally above us, or whether they be "the powers that be", they are of God. Therefore an immense range of thought enters into the passage. The authorities are above us, but certainly the trade unions are not above us; they

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are beneath us and we had better make up our minds as to that, so that we quickly deliver ourselves from anything of the kind. They are not above us, they are beneath us; so that the word given that we are to be subject to the authorities does not mean trade unionism. It is well for the brethren to be clear as to this so that as we proceed the truth may be on our minds and that we may be free of everything that is evil. What is ordained above us is good, ordained of God; everything that is of God is good. But certainly this thing is not good, it is evil, one of the worst things that has come up in modern times, especially spiritually.

C.A.M. In principle the thing is working to overthrow these very authorities that God has ordained. There is a disregard of authority and an effort to disrupt or do away with this authority that God has set up.

J.T. That is what will eventually happen, and so the apostle speaks about apostasy. At Thessalonica there was a question as to whether the day of the Lord had come, but it had not come. That day shall not come, says the apostle, unless there come a falling away first, and the word 'falling away' really means apostasy. Falling away is apostasy. So it is very clear that the apostasy is still ahead of us, a most terrible thought, but the Lord has encouraged us as to it in Revelation 3:10 in regard of Philadelphia; "I also will keep thee", He says, "out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth". Undoubtedly the Lord means the apostasy by the "hour of trial" that is coming. Unconverted people, people that are not interested in the truth, have a certain dread in thinking about those things; but we can face them, and if we have to suffer, let us suffer. The Lord says He will keep us out of the great tribulation, and we

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are to be thankful in that hope. He will take us out of it.

S.McC. So that if we are pursuing what is right and what is good we should not be afraid of any approach to the government in the light of Romans 13, should we?

J.T. I should think not; this country, the United States, is professedly on the side of right, of fairness, but the question is whether it really is so; whether the persons that we have to do with are really right about everything in their dealings. Persons who are living where the union is in power are apt to be affected by it, and then the saints have to suffer for that. The question is whether we are ready to suffer. Some of us are free from the union problem and not likely to come into it. At the same time suffering is coming and we might as well face it; old and young, we might as well face it; especially in the schools young people might as well face what is likely to come upon us.

J.T.Jr. The word 'above' would connect perhaps with our subject. We are speaking of the authorities that are above us, and the word 'above' would suggest something that is connected with Jerusalem.

J.T. "Jerusalem above", just so; we had it this morning. It is Jerusalem above that we belong to. We belong to that wonderful city, the only city really that is of any importance in our minds. It goes on into eternity.

A.S.B. It says in Galatians 4:26, "But the Jerusalem above is free, which is our mother".

J.T. That is the very word scripturally spoken, for Sarah, Abraham's wife, is alluded to as representing it. We already had Abraham this morning as the one with whom Jerusalem is first connected, we might say, but Sarah is actually a type of Jerusalem, she is the type of "Jerusalem above", she is free. So we are not subject to such powers as these

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that are beneath, we are free; and if we suffer in our liberty, then let us suffer, it is well worth while suffering: "it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" (Philippians 1:29).

C.A.M. That is a very interesting remark in view of the question this morning as to the first mention of Jerusalem in the Scriptures; that would substantiate what was said, that the apostle could look back to Sarah in connection with it.

J.T. The idea of liberty too, that she is free; that is to say, the assembly must be in mind. The assembly is in liberty, is set free.

J.T.Jr. Do you think that if we have a right understanding of the assembly in this way, as 'above', we shall be able to view the authorities rightly, as God would have us view them?

J.T. Quite so; and that brings up the question of how Israel has been set aside for the moment according to Romans 11; Israel has been set aside just for the moment but she will be restored presently, for "all Israel shall be saved". We have already some of Israel who are in salvation, but it is said that "all Israel shall be saved".

C.A.M. Is it right to feel that the authorities, at least looking at them abstractly, are representative of God?

J.T. Quite so, they are for the moment, just for the moment. God has taken them up for the moment, and why should He not? He has a right to do that. And He is not taking up the heathen; I mean He is not taking up men from China at the present time to do anything of this kind, not even from India; He is taking up the western powers, and that is what is in mind in the epistle to the Romans. Whatever power there is is of God. The western powers are taking the place of Israel, but all Israel is going to be saved all the same. They are not to

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be blown to the winds, as one might say, they are in the mind of God and He is holding them there, and they will all be saved in due time, "For the gifts and the calling of God are not subject to repentance" (Romans 11:29). His thoughts are going through, He has it in mind that Israel is going to be reinstated, and they will be reinstated.

J.T.Jr. So we would have a right to view Jerusalem as it is in a physical sense in view of what is to come in, that is, the restoration?

J.T. Quite so; "For the gifts and the calling of God are not subject to repentance", and we might as well take comfort from that word. Although as to the Jews around us -- there are about two million Jews in New York -- we cannot say anything about them as such. If they go back to Palestine they will go back in unbelief, and there will be a terrible penalty attached to all that. The Lord speaks of it in Matthew, the terribleness of what is going to happen; because the time of vengeance is coming, the Lord says. But in the meantime it is not for us to enlarge on that, we are here today in the liberty of the Spirit, the liberty of christianity, and no one is forbidding us either, God has ordered that for us.

H.B. Would the frequent reference to "the Highest" in the first chapter of this gospel, and "the dayspring from on high" all help us in relation to what you have in mind? It says, "He shall be great, and shall be called Son of the Highest ... and power of the Highest overshadow thee" (Luke 1:32,35). And then as to John, he is called "the prophet of the Highest"; and then there is "the dayspring from on high" (Luke 1:76,78).

J.T. Those are good references.

Ques. Do we understand that the assembly as such does not come under the civil authorities, but that as individuals we do?

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J.T. As individuals we do, and we might be persecuted too. At the beginning the saints were greatly persecuted, and at the Reformation there was terrible persecution, and of course it may come on now too. We do not know but I do not expect it; I doubt if that will be, but we cannot be sure.

Rem. Some of our brethren are suffering already from trade unions.

J.T. We know that, right here with us at the moment, and we are with them too; we are sympathetic with them.

Ques. But if I may continue, the assembly as such is not subject to the authorities spoken of in Romans 13, is it?

J.T. Not as such, but those who compose it might be persecuted, but that is not the idea indicated. What is indicated in Romans 13 is that the powers that be are in favour of us, for they are of God, and therefore they are in our favour; that is what I would say.

Ques. Would not the assembly be greater than the government?

J.T. Morally greater, certainly. It says that "Jerusalem above", which represents the assembly, is free.

S.McC. It is remarkable that in the passage we read in Luke 24, as they returned to Jerusalem "they found the eleven, and those with them, gathered together, saying, The Lord is indeed risen and has appeared to Simon". The grace of the dispensation seems to be magnified as they come into the city.

J.T. There was no one to hinder them, they came together in the upper room. I do not think there was much persecution at that time, but it came in afterwards. But you have something more to say about that.

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S.McC. I was thinking of the subject of their speaking, saying, "The Lord is indeed risen and has appeared to Simon". Whatever had taken place the element of victory is here now. The Lord is risen, and He has appeared to Simon.

J.T. And then all else that we have in chapter 24, I would enlarge on that, this remarkable speech of the Lord's that He made to those two that were on the way to Emmaus, What a wonderful speech it was! They returned after that; they went back to Jerusalem. They were mistaken; they should not have gone to the country; it was not a time to go to the country; it was the time for Jerusalem; it was a day for Jerusalem, and for the truth in reference to it.

S.McC. Do you think it should affect our hearts, the way the Lord is prepared to go out of His way to help us, to get us back into the idea of the city?

J.T. Quite so. There has been very little persecution amongst the saints so far as I know the last hundred and fifty years or so. There was a great deal of it in the Reformation, but not in the modern revival, thank God! There was some persecution but not much; we can thank God for that. There is no one forbidding us; not a dog lifts his tongue against us, thank God for it! Well, it is God's work; God is doing it, and we keep on praying; on Monday nights and at other times too we keep on praying and God keeps on answering us. Therefore Tuesday morning ought to be a time of expectation from God, from heaven, because heaven is active; we may be sure of that; it is never inactive.

J.W. Would there be a parallel in Daniel's history? It says, "When Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and, his windows being open in his upper chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled on his knees three times a day, and prayed and gave thanks before his God",

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(Daniel 6:10). This matter of the city would be in his mind.

J.McK. In speaking of David's reign it says that he reigned forty years; in Hebron he reigned seven years and six months, but it says he reigned thirty-three years in Jerusalem. Does that bring forward the greatness of Jerusalem in God's sight?

J.T. Just so; so that Jerusalem had a great place with David; it had a great place with Solomon too, Solomon was the man of peace.

J.T.Jr. Do you think it is therefore very instructive that the Lord intercepted these two on the way to Emmaus? Because something very important was going on.

J.T. I do. In fact chapter 24 really has a great deal to do with the Lord's supper. We do not want to be diverted, only to refer to it in so far as it bears on our subject, for the Lord's supper bears on the assembly and the assembly bears on the Lord's supper. It says in verse 13, "Behold, two of them were going on the same day to a village distant sixty stadia from Jerusalem, called Emmaus"; notice that Jerusalem is at a distance, a distant point; "and they conversed with one another about all these things which had taken place. And it came to pass as they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus himself drawing nigh" -- notice this, the Lord Jesus Himself -- "drawing nigh, went with them". Think of the grace that was involved in all that, and the love too, in the Lord's heart for His people at that time! He "went with them; but their eyes were holden so as not to know him. And he said to them, What discourses are these which pass between you as ye walk, and are downcast?". There were two of them, and the Lord enquires as to what their discourses are, what are they saying? We spoke about it this morning, as to what we are speaking about at

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any given time. Well, the Lord raises that same enquiry. He "went with them", it says, "but their eyes were holden so as not to know him. And he said to them, What discourses are these which pass between you as ye walk, and are downcast?". Notice that, downcast, why should there be any such thing as that amongst us? The Spirit of God is amongst us; the Spirit come down from heaven is amongst us, and He is here purposely to look after us, so that there should be no cause for being downcast. And then it says, "And one of them, named Cleopas, answering said to him, Thou sojournest alone in Jerusalem, and dost not know what has taken place in it in these days?". That is, the Lord Jesus Christ has suffered death there. We have to admit that fact as to the history of Jerusalem; and it is there that the two witnesses will be persecuted, "where also their Lord was crucified" (Revelation 11:8). Where He was crucified -- we have to admit all that about Jerusalem. But then we are leading on to something else, and that is Jerusalem above, so that we are coming into great and glorious things. But we might as well look at these facts that these two relate to the Lord Himself; and they culminate in the Lord's supper itself coming into view. The two came back to Jerusalem and found the eleven; there was a broken number of them, meaning that something had happened, something distressing had happened. It very often happens that there are distressing things, and that was exactly what had happened here. And therefore it seems to me that we might as well be diverted a little bit and look at the matter.

J.R.H. It is quite evident that these two were greatly liberated by the breaking of bread. I was wondering if this spiritual liberation that these two moved in was kindred to the thought of the free woman; that they had come under the influence of the free woman and the Lord Jesus Himself?

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J.T. Quite so; so that we go back to Abraham and his wife; Abraham's wife is the free woman, showing how the whole Bible has in mind what we are dealing with. We all need to get what suits us for the moment, because it is a question of the truth for the time, and the time is very short.

S.McC. So that what we are having now, today, would help us to keep our faces in the direction of Jerusalem; not as these two who had their faces away from it.

J.T. It says elsewhere that they were going into the country. Well, that often happens; at this holiday time people are likely to go off into the country and neglect the meetings. These two were going into the country when they should have been going to Jerusalem.

S.McC. Do you think the word that Paul gives in 1 Corinthians 11:22 should affect us in relation to that matter, "Do ye despise the assembly of God"?

J.T. That is very good.

A.N.W. "Distant sixty stadia", you emphasised that, whereas the mount of Olives in Acts 1 is "near Jerusalem, a sabbath-day's journey off". Is the sixty to emphasise the distance from the point? I thought we should heed the Spirit's taking pains to measure the distance, sixty stadia distant, where distance is emphasised: but in connection with the mount of Olives it is "near ... a sabbath-day's journey off".

C.A.M. Is it not a fact that this matter of the direction in which we are going, whether we are going towards Jerusalem, would be governed by our prayers? Daniel's windows were opened toward Jerusalem. There was an allusion made to him and we see in him a man standing in the recognition of the authority coming from God, and yet with his heart filled really with this matter of Jerusalem.

A.S.B. Would not the Lord be our pattern in regard to the direction in which our face is set?

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In Luke 9 we have first the mount of transfiguration and His glory, and later in the chapter it says, "When the days of his receiving up were fulfilled, that he steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem".

J.T. That was because He had to die, He had to go there to die, which is a very distressing thought. But we are trying to keep on the positive side of Jerusalem, and we hope to get the value of it. We are coming tomorrow to the first day of the week, a day that should open this up to us, and I believe it will.

T.L.S. Here in Luke 24 it seems to be a place where the Lord is free and the Spirit is free. The Lord Himself comes into their midst.

J.T. Yes; the passage really opens up things in regard of the Lord's supper and the service of God, and we ought to be directed towards that. The Lord is set free to speak to them and He begins from Moses and from all the prophets, expounding to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. That is to say the Lord is not occupied with what He suffered, but it is "the things concerning himself". I think we might just spend the remaining time on the chapter so as to make it all clear how the Lord's supper comes into it, and how the service of God comes into it.

J.T.Jr. Do you think that these two would have to think of what was the trouble with their eyes, when they looked back on this matter? It says, "Their eyes were holden". It would seem that something must have been wrong with their eyes, that they could not discern Him.

T.C. It says, "And they drew near to the village where they were going, and he made as though he would go farther". The 'He' is emphasised. Would you say a little on that?

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J.T. I suppose the best thing I could say is that it is a judicial matter; these two were going to suffer. They should not have been there at all, they should have been going to Jerusalem. It was a time for Jerusalem; that was the point. But they were not going to Jerusalem, they were going to the country, as we said; and that is what many people are doing in the holiday season, and they suffer, suffer from the government of God if they do not attend to Jerusalem.

L.R. Does Psalm 137:5,6 fit in? "If I forget thee, Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its skill; if I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to my palate: if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy".

J.T. Excellent. That is the positive side of Jerusalem and we are coming to that. The book of Revelation will open it up to us; there we get new Jerusalem, not old Jerusalem but new Jerusalem.

E.B. It is a matter of thinking of God in relation to it. Hebrews 12:22 says, "But ye have come to mount Zion; and to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem". So we would not forget our localities when we think of the place that God has in them.

J.H. We had this morning that Anna was keeping pace with what was happening; it says, "She coming up the same hour"; but the Lord charged these two with being slow. Is what He says after that to correct the slowness so that we might keep pace?

J.T. Quite so; "O senseless and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!" A terrible rebuke the Lord administered to them. And where are we in our souls if we are going off at a holiday time when the assembly is in question, the things of God are in question? The Lord will not forget what is going on.

J.H. Are we not to be on our guard as to things that might come in and turn our eyes away from Jerusalem?

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J.T. We are indeed.

Rem.. It says in Nehemiah 11:1 that "the princes of the people dwelt in Jerusalem; and the rest of the people cast lots, to bring one of ten to dwell in Jerusalem, the holy city".

J.T. Remarkable! It was a penalty to go to Jerusalem; they had to pay a penalty if they lived there. The service of God was connected with it at the time, and just one of ten suffered to go to Jerusalem.

C.A.M. Do you think the Supper has such a place here, suggestively, that we might realise that for us the city is the place where the Lord is? As Ezekiel 48:35 says, "Jehovah is there". Is not that the great characteristic mark? There are those here in Detroit who value the divine service and the Lord's supper in their affections.

J.T. Well, to be simple about the matter, suppose there was a brother or sister off in the country today and these meetings were going on here in this city, what would you think of that? What would the Lord think of that? And no doubt there are some like that who say, I am enjoying my holidays and that is everything. Is it nothing to you, the Lord would say, Is it nothing to you what is happening -- that you should be going on holidays when there are meetings here today, and I am interested in them and you are not here? Do you not think these things should be in our minds?

C.A.M. Yes, indeed I do; that is very appealing. And Luke makes so much of journeying, does he not, that really the direction of our journeys should be a very definite matter in our minds.

C.C.T. I suppose that is the reason so many are downcast, because they are moving in the wrong direction.

Ques. Do you think that Paul's word to Timothy would help us, especially those of us who are young?

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He says, "Give heed to thyself and to the teaching; continue in them; for, doing this, thou shalt save both thyself and those that hear thee" (1 Timothy 4:16).

J.T. Very good. There are certain things he said to Timotheus that I think we should call attention to, because they are Paul's remarks to his child; his language was like that of a father to a child, how he would speak to his son. Why should you do that, Timothy? Why should you go there? That is the sort of thing that we should be able to say to our young people, and tell them the truth; admonish them if things are not right. Are we able to do that?

F.K.C. The Lord mentions in verse 49 "the promise of my Father", and says they were to remain in the city till they received "power from on high". Does Jerusalem have a great place in the mind of God as being the place to which the power came first? They were endued with power from on high in that place; it was the leading interest that God had at the moment; and I was thinking that if we miss the leading interest that is in God's mind, we really miss the whole dispensation in a sense.

J.T. That is the truth. But now we have read from the Lord's remarks, and He says terrible words in verse 25 -- "O senseless and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!". But He goes on from that, "Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into his glory? And having begun from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself". What a wonderful exposition it was that was opened up by the Lord Himself at that time! And it is a question now of our being able to get the meaning of what is said and what the truth is for us in it. Then it says in verse 36, "And as they were saying these things, he himself stood in their midst, and says to them, Peace be unto you. But they, being confounded and being

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frightened, supposed they beheld a spirit. And he said to them, Why are ye troubled? and why are thoughts rising in your hearts? behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself". That is to say, the Lord is amongst us Himself, because that is what happens; the Lord comes in amongst us on the first day of the week.

J.W. Does the Lord come particularly before us at the breaking of bread? And would being clothed with power from on high have in mind the continuance of the testimony down here in the power of the Spirit?

J.T. It would, and Luke has a great place in all that teaching; in fact the actual Supper of the Lord is mentioned earlier in the book. But now we have the resurrection, what is before us is the resurrection, another phase of the matter; not simply the Lord's supper but the resurrection. So that I think we should read the whole latter part of the chapter again beginning at verse 32: -- "And they said to one another, Was not our heart burning in us as he spoke to us on the way, and as he opened the scriptures to us? And rising up the same hour, they returned to Jerusalem. And they found the eleven, and those with them, gathered together, saying, The Lord is indeed risen and has appeared to Simon. And they related what had happened on the way, and how he was made known to them in the breaking of bread. And as they were saying these things, he himself stood in their midst, and says to them, Peace be unto you. But they, being confounded and being frightened, supposed they beheld a spirit. And he said to them, Why are ye troubled? and why are thoughts rising in your hearts? behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having. And having said this he shewed them his hands and his feet. But while

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they yet did not believe for joy, and were wondering, he said to them, Have ye anything here to eat? And they gave him part of a broiled fish and of a honeycomb; and he took it and ate before them. And he said to them, These are the words which I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all that is written concerning me in the law of Moses and prophets and psalms must be fulfilled? Then he opened their understanding to understand the scriptures, and said to them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved the Christ to suffer, and to rise from among the dead the third day; and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but do ye remain in the city till ye be clothed with power from on high. And he led them out as far as Bethany, and having lifted up his hands, he blessed them. And it came to pass as he was blessing them, he was separated from them and was carried up into heaven. And they, having done him homage, returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God".

Now I think we have come to the great point of the chapter, and we might say of the whole gospel of Luke. This 24th chapter is the one that leads up to the service of God; and the main thing that is in the mind of heaven at the moment is the service of God, what the Lord Jesus is carrying on. He is gone into heaven and He is carrying on the service; He is the great Priest over the house of God. He lifts up His hands and blesses them; and as He blesses them He is carried up into heaven. These are all mysterious things, but they have to be understood. And another mysterious thing is that a miracle happened here, that is to say He ate before them; He took a material thing, food, and

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ate it. We cannot understand that; it is a mystery, because the blood as well as flesh and bones is needed for all that, but the Lord did it nevertheless; and Peter relates later that He ate and drank before them. So it was a miracle that happened, and the first day of the week opens up mystery to us. That is the thing that I thought we should specially come to at this reading.

S.McC. Is the Lord specially helping us at the present time to see the dignity of the first day of the week and what belongs to it?

J.T. Just so; so that Acts 20 directly refers to it, the first day of the week when the disciples came together to break bread; that was the day. Paul discoursed; it took a long time to discourse, but why was that? There was something wrong, just as there was something wrong when the Lord appeared to the two here. They were not right but they got right, because He opened up things to them and they returned to Jerusalem. And now the point is, what are we all getting from the scriptures that are before us at this time? We have come to the idea of the Lord's supper, and the service of God beginning there, the opening up of the service of God the Father. All this comes into this chapter.

J.T.Jr. Should we be ready therefore for these mysterious things that the first day of the week would bring in?

J.T. I think we ought to be ready for mystery, something of mystery, that we are not ordinary christians, ordinary church-goers. The assembly involves mystery.

J.T.Jr. The apostle says, "Behold, I tell you a mystery". That was one of them.

J.T. Just so, and I think we ought to read that; it is a very short word in 1 Corinthians 15:51 - 55: "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed, in an instant,

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in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must needs put on incorruptibility, and this mortal put on immortality. But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruptibility, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the word written: Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is thy sting? where, O death, thy victory?"

These are wonderful things; and as we already had it today, we are not waiting for death, we are waiting for all these wonderful things that are opened up to us in that chapter. It is a time of life and we ought to be ready for it too, ready for the Lord Jesus to come; and that we should love His appearing -- not simply His coming for us but His appearing.

C.M. Would there be something of that in these closing verses of chapter 24? The Lord had led them to Bethany; they had seen Him lifting up His hands and blessing them and parting from them, and then they returned to Jerusalem with great joy. There had been something going on undoubtedly between Him and them during this little while in Bethany, but it turned their thoughts to Jerusalem, where, for the moment, they were to remain according to His word.

J.T. Just so. So the facts of the Lord's supper and the service of God now open up -- these two great features. The idea of the service of God covers the whole matter. These are two great features that should occupy the brethren for the little while that remains, if we are ready for it. We belong to the assembly and we shall be translated. The Spirit of God will quicken the saints, He will quicken our mortal bodies; not our dead bodies but our mortal

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bodies. And in quickening them He makes us ready for translation, to be caught up with Him. But in the meantime we have the service of God, the Lord comes to us. He will come for us presently, but He comes to us now according to John 14; He comes to us, and the thing is to be ready for that; and therefore there is a great need for feet washing and all that is necessary to make us pure and holy when the Lord comes as He does on the first day of the week. What does He see when He comes in? The Lord Himself comes in, He comes to us on the first day of the week.

A.N.W. Does the introduction of the Psalms in verse 44 emphasise the service? The Lord introduces the Psalms in that connection, not on the way to Emmaus; and that amplifies the service of God, I suppose.

J.T. Just so.

F.K.C. David had much to do with the service of God. Is that in mind in 1 Chronicles 16 where he delivers the psalm to Asaph and his brethren to give thanks to Jehovah? You have alluded to it as a composition of about six psalms. Are all these things to be in our minds as we come together, the great manoeuvrability that there is under the hand of the true David in the service of God?

J.T. He stands for it; he is said to be the sweet psalmist of Israel the sweet psalmist, and that sweetness is for the Lord. So that the Lord is in the midst of the assembly to sing praises to the Father. That is wonderful in the epistle to the Hebrews, the time of singing!

J.T.Jr. So that David had to say that they had not sought the Lord after the due order; they had to come to that, what was the due order.

J.T. Just so; what is corrective is enlarged on. The Lord loved David peculiarly, he was the sweet psalmist, but he made great errors too. Yet the

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Lord restored him, that is a great comfort, that there is such a thing as restoration amongst us; if things go wrong there is some means of restoration; that is to say there is a Priest of God, we have a Priest in heaven with God, and there is the Spirit of God down here in keeping with the position of Christ in heaven. So that things are perfectly taken care of, there is no need that anything should happen out of accord with the mind of God.

A.S.B. Restoration enters into our chapter: it says in verse 33, "And rising up the same hour, they returned to Jerusalem"; it is the principle of returning. And later it says, "And they, having done him homage, returned to Jerusalem with great joy". The service is in mind.

J.W. So that their departure to Emmaus was marked by weakness and lack of understanding, but their return to Jerusalem was marked by power.

J.T. Why did they return? The Lord did not tell them to return. Why did they do so? It was instinctive. And that is what happens; when things go wrong amongst us and then become right we develop instincts and are amenable to help; and we have a great Priest over the house of God, so that help is available to us.

A.N.W. It says they did it "the same hour". "Rising up the same hour, they returned".

J.T. "The same hour", there is no delay.

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GOD'S THOUGHT OF A CITY AS SEEN IN JERUSALEM (3)

Hebrews 2:8 - 18; Hebrews 3:1,2

J.T. In view of the day and of what has already come before us in the Supper we might turn aside this afternoon to the subject of the direct service of God, involving the Lord's supper. The suggestion arose from certain things that came before some of us today as to what God is doing actively now. Hebrews 2:10 says, "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings". Arising from this verse is the suggestion that God is doing something special at the present time, and that something is in connection with His own service. It is thought that in view of so many brethren being here from different parts of this country and elsewhere it might be suitable to take up the thought of divine action at the present time relating to the service as seen in verse 10 and what follows. It is not in mind to limit our thoughts to the verses read, but to the thought of the service of God, the Lord's supper leading in it. The fact is that it begins with the Lord's supper, and the Supper gives occasion for it.

S.McC. Would you open out a little more the thought of "it became him", to which you referred this morning?

J.T. The idea would be that it was suitable to God Himself in these present circumstances. "It became him, for whom are all things" -- which is God Himself -- "and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings". "The leader of their salvation" is clearly the Lord Himself, the Minister of the sanctuary. It is in mind that the

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remaining readings should be engaged with Jerusalem in the sense in which it has been before us, especially the bright side of it, the positive side as seen in the book of Revelation. In the meantime we have the first day of the week, and it seems wise that we should devote it to what is suitable to God Himself, for He should be served, and He has priests to that end. We are priests to God and we are priests to Christ; so that the subject in that sense really began with the verses read, "But now we see not yet all things subjected to him, but we see Jesus, who was made some little inferior to angels on account of the suffering of death". And so we get in verse 10 that the Leader of their salvation should be made perfect through sufferings. Suffering is the order of the day, but having in mind what there is for God in the way of service and the intelligence that belongs to it.

H.B. Have you not pointed out that the scriptures in this section are largely quotations from the Psalms?

J.T. I think so, and especially in the first chapter. In truth the book of Hebrews is largely made up of quotations from the Psalms. It may be pointed out too that the five books of the Pentateuch correspond with the five books of Psalms.

C.C.T. Would you say more about the sufferings?

J.T. We shall have to bring that in as we have opportunity. We have partaken of the Lord's supper, all of us I suppose, and it will be a good opportunity to see just how the service of God stands with us; evidently sufferings must enter into it. The Lord has died for us, as it says, "Our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him" (1 Thessalonians 5:9,10). It is for us to see whether we really understand what the Lord's supper implies, and the service of God as entering into it.

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T.U. Is the thought to link the bringing of many sons to glory with the service of God?

J.T. That is it. That is the great feature of the word of God just now. His own service is that He is doing this thing, bringing many sons to glory; and sonship in this sense involves the sisters as well as the brothers. Perhaps we do not understand that, or take to heart at all that the sisters are all sons. We are all on the same basis as we go into heaven, we shall all be sons of God.

S.McC. Would the fact that the revision of the hymn book has been suggested and is on the way emphasise to us that the Lord is constantly thinking about the service of God and the refinement linked with it?

J.T. I think that for fifty years the service of God has had a leading place in the ministry, and yet one feels that there is great defect in the understanding of the Lord's supper, because it has to do especially with the service of God, and in fact begins the service of God.

J.W. Are we right in thinking that sonship in this connection is based on suffering rather than on purpose?

J.T. Well, the sufferings are essential to it, because we want to be brought into accord with God. We are not in accord with God in our natural condition, sufferings are needed. Peter speaks of "the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow" (1 Peter 1:11). It was for this truth that Mr. Darby suffered; in 1867 there was a great attack on the truth and it was a question of the sufferings of Christ. Perhaps that has not been understood. The suffering was essential in view of the service of God because of the condition in which we were, or are even now; the sufferings are necessary that we might be perfected.

J.T.Jr. The Lord spoke about that Himself when introducing the Supper: "With desire I have desired

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to eat this passover with you before I suffer" (Luke 22:15). Then Luke speaks of it in Acts 1:3, "He presented himself living, after he had suffered". We have the thought of what was before and then after, and then there was a time in which it was being worked out.

J.T. Very good. There is the thought first of "before I suffer", and then after His sufferings. But then the thing perhaps that is difficult to understand is His being made perfect through sufferings.

S.McC. Does the perfecting refer to a position reached? It is not a question of what He was intrinsically.

J.T. It is just a position reached; He came for this purpose. Manhood was in mind, and hence almost at the beginning of the Bible we have "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion" (Genesis 1:26). Man and woman are covered under the same word, 'man', and they are to have dominion together in the plural sense; that of course can be understood as it is worked out in Christ and the assembly, as Paul says, "But I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly" (Ephesians 5:32).

A.N.W. Are we to be able to distinguish between the various sufferings? The word is in the plural in verse 10, "through sufferings". Should we be able to distinguish between the atoning sufferings and other sufferings of the Lord?

J.T. I think we should; it is a time of learning and training, and of our being constituted fit for God's service, what He may have for us to do. There are different sufferings and we have to think of them in their variety, because it is a most touching thing that the Lord has come before us as having suffered, "suffered for us in the flesh", we read in 1 Peter 4:1.

N.S. Verses 10 and 11 commence with "for", giving a reason for what goes before. Is that to bring

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before us the greatness of the thoughts of God in the Lord's becoming man?

J.T. Well, it is a sequential thought. "For it became him" -- that is God as I understand it -- "for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings". That is to say, the sufferings are necessary to it, so that the leadership is made perfect. It was suitable to God that it should happen, the divine Persons all entering into it.

A.S.B. Does seeing enter into all this? It says, in verse 8, "We see not yet all things subjected to him, but we see Jesus". There is a realm that we see around us where the great principle of insubjection is seen, "but we see Jesus" over against all that.

J.T. Very good.

J.W.F. If God is doing this now, the thought of glory should be in our minds as arrived at now.

J.T. The phraseology is often used, 'the sufferings and the glory', and what a theme! What a blessed thought for us! I am sure the thought of it is becoming to us too; it is suitable that we should be engaged with this on the Lord's day afternoon in view of all that we have said in blessing this morning.

S.McC. The Lord's supper and the service of God call for spiritual emotions, do they not? And would the sufferings help in relation to the moving and quickening of these emotions? You referred last night to the very mention of Zion promoting a spiritual thrill with us.

J.T. I think it does. I suppose we could hardly go into the full thought of the sufferings of Christ as in the Psalms because it involves so much; indeed the main thought in the Psalms is the sufferings of Christ. As we said before, the Psalms are composed of the same number of books as the Pentateuch, so

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that we might say they correspond, they work into each other.

C.A.M. Would this not be the wonderful answer to what the Lord said in Luke 24, that we should not be senseless and slow of heart? "Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into his glory?"

J.T. Yes, and we hope to link that on with Revelation in our subsequent readings. We would like our young people to take on these things and to prepare themselves, for it is a time of suffering. It is suitable to suffer, "it became him", it says.

S.McC. Do you regard this suffering as extending from Christ to the saints, and thus somewhat akin to what Paul refers to in Colossians 1:24, "I fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh, for his body, which is the assembly"? I was wondering whether this thought of suffering in Hebrews 2 extends from Christ to the saints?

J.T. Just so; and as we are brought into all this we feel that the Lord would not have it otherwise; nor would we have it otherwise than to have part with Him in what He went through in order to fit us for the glory with Himself. 'The sufferings and the glory' -- what marvellous things are ahead of us, and how little our hearts are moved as we stop to think of it! It is very special in relation to the Lord's supper. Ten meetings in this city have today partaken of the Lord's supper, and what have we to say about it? The sufferings of Christ are involved in it that we might have part in this wonderful joy that belongs to us -- "the glory that should follow".

J.H. In commencing to speak of it in 1 Corinthians 11 Paul says of the Lord Jesus that it was in the night in which He was delivered up; he brings the Supper in thus. Does that not show how the delivering up continues right through till now?

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J.T. And so it says in Corinthians again, "for you", "This is my body, which is for you". The Lord Himself said that. This is something for us; it is to be used, to be appropriated; the body of Christ is to be appropriated by us. And what joy there may be flowing from the suffering attached to it! The joy is the outcome of it, the glory follows.

A.Macd. You spoke of desiring that those of us who are young take on this matter of suffering. I was wondering whether Paul had that in mind in writing his second epistle to Timothy. In chapter 1 the idea of suffering comes in five or six times, and goes on to the word, "Take thy share in suffering" (2 Timothy 2:3). I was thinking how beautifully Paul himself sets it out in that he says, "For which cause also I suffer" (2 Timothy 1:12), and then he calls upon Timothy to take his share in suffering.

J.T. "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1); so that the whole matter is linked up with Paul as thus linked with Christ.

W.McK. Paul also says, "For I bear in my body the brands of the Lord Jesus" (Galatians 6:17). Would that indicate the working out in a suffering way of what he had received?

J.T. Quite so. One loves to hear some of the young ones coming out with all this because it is just preparing us for the glory.

Rem. The Lord said in regard to Paul in Acts 9:16, "I will shew to him how much he must suffer for my name". The Lord spoke to him that way initially, did He not?

J.T. Yes, He did. Surely we can see what is meant, especially when the Lord undertakes to show us. So that we are in the way for it now if we just give the Lord His full place.

J.W.D. What would be the difference between the thought that "our momentary and light affliction

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works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory", and this thought of perfection through suffering? What is the meaning of the phrase, "works for us"?

J.T. "Our momentary and light affliction" -- that is the way we look at it, that is our evaluation of it as Paul speaks of it. It is "momentary and light", not heavy; the Lord had all the weight. He had the whole weight of suffering. I believe the Lord intended to bring the brethren into it, He wants to bring us along with Him. He has been through the suffering and He wants to bring us all into it with Him, because the assembly, His body, is to be in keeping with Himself. It must be so, it must be in keeping with the Lord Himself; He wishes to bring it into accord with what He is, with His own way and manner, because it is His body.

J.T.Jr. Peter speaks of a model, "leaving you a model". It is remarkable how much he speaks about suffering: the second chapter of his first epistle says, "For this is acceptable, if one, for conscience sake towards God, endure griefs, suffering unjustly"; and then again, "For what glory is it, if sinning and being buffeted ye shall bear it? but if, doing good and suffering, ye shall bear it, this is acceptable with God ... for Christ also has suffered for you, leaving you a model" (1 Peter 2:19 - 21).

J.T. How Peter and Paul work together! They are on the same line that we may be brought into accord with Christ, to be His body; for we are that, we are to be eternally His body.

J.McK. Does Paul's word in 2 Corinthians 1:5,6 help? He says, "Because, even as the sufferings of the Christ abound towards us, so through the Christ does our encouragement also abound. But whether we are in tribulation, it is for your encouragement and salvation, wrought in the endurance of the same sufferings which we also suffer".

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J.T. That is quite in keeping with the second epistle because the idea of the first is to make way for the full thought in the second, and thus the second epistle is usually the confirmation of the first. Then in Philippians 1:29 we have, "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him" -- that is the first thought -- "but also to suffer for his sake".

Ques. In Psalm 69, a sorrow psalm and a suffering one, it says in verse 26, "For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten, and they talk for the sorrow of those whom thou hast wounded". Does that not bring the saints into it?

J.T. Very good; and 'a sorrow psalm' is a beautiful expression. The Psalms are characterised by suffering; but there are certain ones referring especially to sorrow that may be called 'sorrow psalms'; they refer to what the Lord has gone through Himself.

Ques. Is there further confirmation of the link between sonship and suffering in that Joseph's sons were born in the days of his affliction, and also Moses' sons in the time of his rejection? (see Acts 7:27 - 29).

J.T. Very good.

C.M. Peter seems to enter definitely into the thought of sufferings, and in chapter 4 he says, "Christ, then, having suffered for us in the flesh, do ye also arm yourselves with the same mind".

J.T. Yes, that is the mind of Christ, the suffering mind of Christ.

C.M. If thoughts of the passover marked us more fully during the week, would it not give us a fuller sense of the sufferings of Christ as we come together on the Lord's day morning?

J.T. It would; and therefore the beginning of the service of God is really in the sufferings of the

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Lord's supper. The Lord had in mind to eat the passover with them before He suffered. We have already spoken of 'before' and 'after' He suffered, but now we are in the period of suffering on this first day of the week, and the question is whether we are in the good of the fact that we are sufferers, and that "it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake"?

C.D. Would the matter of suffering as His brethren be set forth in the brethren of Gideon, the question as to the kind of men they were and then the thought of sonship? Gideon asked of Zebah and Zalmunna, "What sort of men were they that ye slew at Tabor? And they answered, As thou art, so were they; each one resembled the sons of a king. And he said, They were my brethren, the sons of my mother" (Judges 8:18,19). He was not ashamed to call them brethren.

J.T. Just so, and that is what we had today, that the Lord is not ashamed to call us brethren. So we might read again what we have just read in Hebrews 2"But now we see not yet all things subjected to him, but we see Jesus, who was made some little inferior to angels on account of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; so that by the grace of God he should taste death for everything". Let us take that into our minds. Then we have already read, "For it became him" -- that is God -- "for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory" -- that is God -- "to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings". "Sufferings" are in the plural, the whole idea is there, that, as it has been worked out fully in Christ, so it should be worked out in every one who belongs to the assembly; because the assembly is the greatest body, the greatest family in the universe. But then they are to go through things as He did; we are to be like Him.

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J.W. Paul's word to the Thessalonians, a young assembly as we understand, says that "ye became our imitators, and of the Lord, having accepted the word in much tribulation with joy of the Holy Spirit, so that ye became models to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia" (1 Thessalonians 1:6,7). And further in chapter 2:14 - 16, "For ye, brethren, have become imitators of the assemblies of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus; for ye also have suffered the same things of your own countrymen so also they of the Jews, who have both slain the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and have driven us out by persecution, and do not please God, and are against all men, forbidding us to speak to the nations that they may be saved".

J.T. What a beautiful setting out! The very thing we have before us set out by the great servant who himself went through it! In fact, I would say all the apostles went through it; the greater number of them were martyred; it was granted to them.

J.B. John refers in Revelation 21 to the bride, the Lamb's wife. The Lamb's wife would suggest the thought of suffering.

T.U. Do you make any distinction between the thought, "on account of the suffering of death", and that of "the leader of their salvation" being perfected "through sufferings"? The end of the chapter seems to indicate that the words, "for, in that himself has suffered, being tempted", would link with His pathway; and the reference in verse 9 would link with the final end of it, with His death.

J.T. You are referring to the suffering of death. There are sufferings that are not to death, but the Lord went all the way; that is to say He died. And Paul goes the whole way, too; he says, I do not deprecate dying. He did not despise it, he knew what it meant, but he was prepared to go the whole way to be in accord with Christ.

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J.R.H. Does chapter 11 indicate that suffering is a normal matter for the people of God? It says there of Moses, "choosing rather to suffer affliction along with the people of God".

J.T. "With the people of God", exactly, preferring that to "the temporary pleasure of sin".

A.D.S. Does not the Lord get at this point in Mark 8:31 where it says, "And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and of the chief priests and of the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again"? Then in the application of it on our side he says, "For whosoever shall desire to save his life shall lose it, but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's shall save it" (verse 35).

J.T. It is very happy to hear these holy pages of Scripture read in our hearing by those who understand them; and that is the intent in this reading, that we might be affected by the great fact of the sufferings of Christ and might see that we should know the fellowship of His sufferings, and be conformed to His death.

C.C.T. Do we see the working out of this suffering in Philadelphia? It says that they had kept His word and had not denied His name.

J.T. Philadelphia is the one of the assemblies that the Lord has chosen to set out His thoughts more than any of the others, I think.

C.D. Does having part in the sufferings qualify us for having part in the singing? The time of suffering and then the time of singing.

J.T. Very good.

J.McK. Is it in your mind that at the Lord's supper there should be the bringing forward of true spiritual formation in our souls as to our part in the sufferings of Christ -- that expression should be given to it? Sometimes we seem to be engaged

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wholly with the glory of Christ, the sufferings not entering into it at all.

J.T. Whereas the sufferings precede the glory, "the sufferings ... and the glory". The sufferings must precede the glory.

J.McK. That is helpful; that would help us in relation to the service to the Lord Himself, in bringing forward something of His sufferings from our own inward experience.

T.L.S. When Paul and Silas were in the jail they were singing praises to God as suffering persons.

J.T. Just so, a good, beautiful passage.

S.McC. In regard to the Lord's supper and the sufferings of Christ, there are a few hymns on that line that are never made use of. Perhaps some of us have been hindered from using them because of their mention of the cross and what entered into the scene of the cross; but they have a place, have they not, at the Lord's supper?

J.T. Oh! they have! You were not with us when we went through this matter of the hymn book, but we are going through the hymn book again to see if there can be any improvement in the singing. It is a question of singing, because the service of song is the leading thought next to the actual words that we may speak to God and to Christ and to the Spirit. The sufferings of Christ come in as preceding the singing. If we are to sing aright we must suffer. It is a very remarkable thing that that is how the thing stands in the Scriptures.

J.McK. So as to the matter of the cross, is it not brought forward in a helpful way in Philippians 2, speaking of Christ humbling Himself and becoming obedient unto death and that the death of the cross?

J.T. Just so, "that the death of the cross".

A.N.W. Is not Psalm 22 the greatest of all the suffering psalms? And that is the very one that

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we are dealing with here in connecting with the singing?

J.W. And would not suffering increase priestliness amongst us? The holy ointment in the tabernacle system was made of liquid myrrh and sweet cinnamon and sweet myrtle and cassia, and was used for anointing the whole system; extending in that way do you think to include the saints?

J.T. I do; and as we have already said, save for the actual speaking to divine Persons, singing is one of the leading parts in the service of God; and that is why so much attention is being paid to the hymn book. God has helped the brethren in preparing hymn books; they began early in 1856 I think; and then came Mr. Darby's great work in revising the hymn book in 1881; and then in 1932 there was the great work that ten or more of us had to do with. God has greatly helped in all that, it is in view of the service of God. And now, if the Lord will, the thought is to add to that so that we may sing to the Spirit, which has never been done properly before.

A.D.S. I was struck with the verse referred to in Acts 16:25. "And at midnight Paul and Silas, in praying, were praising God, with singing, and the prisoners listened to them".

J.T. There is something else to be said about that. How did it come about that Paul was suffering? Will you read the passage?

"And it came to pass as we were going to prayer that a certain female slave, having a spirit of Python, met us, who brought much profit to her masters by prophesying. She, having followed Paul and us, cried saying, These men are bondmen of the Most High God, who announce to you the way of salvation. And this she did many days. And Paul, being distressed, turned, and said to the spirit, I enjoin thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come

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out of her. And it came out the same hour. And her masters, seeing that the hope of their gains was gone, having seized Paul and Silas, dragged them into the market before the magistrates" (Acts 16:17 - 19).

J.T. Notice the wickedness that is active in all that -- "a spirit of Python", making it a matter of profit, a mere business matter, and the wickedness attached to it! The devil had entered into that woman.

Well, now, I think our dear brethren here in Detroit ought to be considered in this matter of suffering in connection with the union. The question is how far we are with our brethren here in this matter because God is going to bring something out of it; we shall get something out of it through them, and therefore the need is for prayer as to this whole matter, and God will come in for us.

A.S.B. I was just noting a remark the other day by Mr. Stoney bearing on this very thing; he says in regard to Acts 16 that the adversary will try flattery, and if we do not succumb to flattery then we shall have persecution following.

J.T. And that is what is happening. Our brethren are suffering, and it is a question of our being with them in the suffering, because the whole assembly will gain through it. It is a time for that sort of thing, for gain through suffering. And the next thing is, are we with our brethren in prayer, because that is how the thing is to be solved. God will have His own way with us; we must allow Him to have His own way; and that way would be that we gain through sufferings. As we have quoted often, it is given to us in the behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him but also to suffer for His sake.

N.B. Unceasing prayer was made by the assembly for Peter, and he was delivered.

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J.T. Unceasing prayer. There was some lack of faith about it, but still, there was gain from it to them.

N.B. Peter was delivered.

J.W.F. Would you say that body feelings enter into the matter according to Hebrews 13? Verse 3 says, "Remember prisoners, as bound with them; those that are evil treated, as being yourselves also in the body".

J.T. Just so; so that we see now what is accruing to our minds from this thought of suffering. It says in verse 8 of our chapter, "For in subjecting all things to him, he has left nothing unsubject to him. But now we see not yet all things subjected to him, but we see Jesus", -- that is the point -- "we see Jesus", -- but we do not stop there, there is only a comma there -- "who was made some little inferior to angels on account of the suffering of death" -- that is the point, the suffering of death, that kind of suffering, the extreme thought of suffering -- "crowned with glory and honour; so that by the grace of God he should taste death for every thing". Think of the Lord going through this, tasting death for everything! And again, "For it became him" -- that is God -- "for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings". That is what is coming to us; one feels very concerned in speaking so much about it, for it is just what is coming to us; we might as well make up our minds for it that the Lord will grant us the great privilege of coming into the truth through suffering.

F.K.C. Paul himself goes over the list of his actual sufferings in 2 Corinthians 11, showing what a great vessel he was in the mind of God. We should value that list of what the apostle went through.

J.T. I think we might again repeat what was quoted from 1 Peter 2:19 - 24.

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"For this is acceptable, if one, for conscience sake towards God, endure griefs, suffering unjustly. For what glory is it, if sinning and being buffeted ye shall bear it? but if, doing good and suffering, ye shall bear it, this is acceptable with God. For to this have ye been called; for Christ also has suffered for you, leaving you a model that ye should follow in his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth; who, when reviled, reviled not again; when suffering, threatened not; but gave himself over into the hands of him who judges righteously; who himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, in order that, being dead to sins, we may live to righteousness: by whose stripes ye have been healed".

Think of that word, His own body! Not our bodies, but His own body. Well, now, we might happily proceed further to get all this confirmed from Hebrews 2:11 and onwards: "For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren". So that the Lord is now telling us that He is allowing us to take part with Him as His brethren.

J.W.F. Would that be the glory that the sons are led to?

J.T. Just so; and it is well to repeat it that the word 'brethren' and the word 'sons', especially the word 'sons', include the sisters as well as the brothers, because "ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus". That is what is said about us.

A.S.B. So that referring to the sisters again and to the revision of the hymn book, we have many hymns that are the composition of sisters; so that they contribute to the service of God in that way as well as by the actual singing in the assembly.

J.T. They have part in the singing. We rightly say that the sisters are not to speak, but still they must speak in singing; they must use their tongues,

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and I think it is well to keep that in mind. And when we say that it is given unto us on the behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him but to suffer for His sake, the sisters all have part in that. There will be an immense gain if they take all these things to heart as the brothers do. I do not say they do not; but I think the time has now come that they should be made to feel that they belong to the sons. God is bringing many sons to glory and that includes the sisters as well as the brothers.

J.T.Jr. There is in singing what you might call the man's voice and then what you might call the woman's voice. They are blended of course, and I suppose the idea is that in Man at the beginning both of them blended, and so it is in the singing in the assembly.

Rem. It says in Judges 5:1, "Then sang Deborah and Barak"; it is a woman and a man.

J.T. It is remarkable that Deborah is mentioned first.

T.U. Would the extent of our desire to move in relation to the service of God substantively, in any way govern the extent of our suffering?

J.T. I am thoroughly with you in that.

J.W. So this happy condition which is mentioned here, "in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises", is an elevating thought for us.

J.T. Indeed it is. The word 'assembly' there is the real word, the real matter that we ought to speak of. The assembly is the greatest family in the universe. The angels are not so great because the angels serve us; they are not so great as the sons. If we would all take that in, it would be an immense gain to us, that we belong to this great family called the assembly. The word involves what is systematised; there is a phrase in Scripture: "systematised error" (Ephesians 4:14); but we might say the assembly is a system of joy and thoughtfulness of service. So verse 12

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says: "I will declare thy name to my brethren" -- this is the Lord Jesus speaking to His Father -- "in the midst of the assembly" -- that is to say the saints as together this morning for the service of God in the assembly -- "will I sing thy praises", God's praises. "And again, I will trust in him". That is to bring out the reality of the Lord's humanity entering into the service of God in singing; because the assembly has a peculiar way and place, not only in the power to sing and make sound in that sense, but in intelligence. They know what they are doing and God notices that; the highest idea of intelligence, I believe, enters into the thought of the assembly in the service of God.

C.C.T. Would this thought of His singing in the midst of the assembly help us to be careful as to what hymns we use?

J.T. That is a very good suggestion; and God is providing wonderfully for us, as we have already pointed out, in the number of revisions there have been of the hymn book. The most recent one -- the 1932 revision -- has served well; but now the spiritual thought has come up to go further, and I believe the Lord will help us and make the service of song fuller than ever it has been with the addition of singing to the Spirit Himself, that the Spirit should be fully recognised. So that in all this there will be yield for God.

N.B. Is the singing, according to verse 12, under the control of the chief Musician?

J.T. Just so: "in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises". That is the Lord Jesus Himself speaking of what He will do in the way of the service of song to the Father. It is the most striking passage we have, I think, in the epistle to the Hebrews. We might add what it says in verse 14: "Since therefore the children partake of blood and flesh, he also, in like manner, took part in the same",

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that is the Lord Jesus taking part in humanity -- "that through death he might annul him who has the might of death, that is, the devil" -- God is now attacking the devil himself through the Lord Jesus -- "and might set free all those who through fear of death through the whole of their life were subject to bondage. For he does not indeed take hold of angels by the hand, but he takes hold of the seed of Abraham". It is that humanity, the seed of Abraham. "Wherefore it behoved him in all things to be made like to his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God" -- not ordinary things, but things relating to God -- "to make propitiation for the sins of the people; for, in that himself has suffered, being tempted, he is able to help those that are being tempted". So that there is a great deal to be learned in all these verses, as adding to this one great thought of verse 10. The whole passage ends thus in verse 1 of chapter 3: "Wherefore, holy brethren" -- it is an address to us this afternoon -- "partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Jesus" -- the second time the name 'Jesus' is mentioned in the epistle -- "who is faithful to him that has constituted him, as Moses also in all his house". The same thing runs right through.

S.McC. It is remarkable that Abraham should be alluded to here; it is not that He takes hold of the seed of Adam, the first head of the race, but of Abraham who becomes head in a new sense, does he not?

J.T. He was the best kind of humanity that could be had; it is a question of the kind of humanity. So that Jehovah says, "I called him when he was alone" -- not in a crowd -- "I called him when he was alone, and blessed him" (Isaiah 51:2). That is Abraham, a peculiar kind of family, a peculiar kind of humanity that God selected for this great purpose,

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namely, His service; and we do well to look into the thing and see if we understand it, and whether we have a link ourselves with Abraham as his seed; because that is the idea of it. Our Lord sprang from Abraham; He sprang from Judah it says, specifically.

W.McK. Does the apostle bring in the heavenly calling in chapter 3? Abraham sets out the idea of what is heavenly.

J.T. I think so; there is a peculiar touch to the kind of humanity that is seen in Abraham. It would be well to study the matter, as to what kind of humanity there is in Abraham and how it works in the service of song to God.

J.R.H. Would it be right to say that the seed of Abraham is carried forward in the thought of His brethren? It says, "Wherefore it behoved him in all things to be made like to his brethren".

J.T. So the sons and the brethren are the same. 'Brethren' is more a collective thought, but 'sons' is a distinctively individual thought; we are "all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:26).

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GOD'S THOUGHT OF A CITY AS SEEN IN JERUSALEM (4)

Revelation 3:7 - 13; Revelation 21:1 - 8

J.T. It is in mind to resume our consideration of the thought of Jerusalem, and as already intimated we shall take it up today as seen in the book of Revelation. The address to Philadelphia is read because it contains the reference to new Jerusalem, a term which also appears in chapter 21. Much reference is made to Jerusalem in the Scriptures, but we confined ourselves in the two first readings to the gospel of Luke where the thought is seen in a historic way. But now it is not the historic Jerusalem that is in mind, but rather the spiritual or heavenly Jerusalem, which will apparently continue eternally. It is said to be the new Jerusalem which comes down from God out of heaven. It is significant that it appears in the address to Philadelphia, an assembly which undoubtedly alludes to the time in which we are actually today. Certain special promises are made in the address to Philadelphia; but what we are concerned about more particularly is Jerusalem, which appears in connection with the overcomer in the chapter: "He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem" -- the new Jerusalem -- "which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name". The Lord Jesus is speaking Himself, and He regards God as His God. There are many promises made to Philadelphia that may be touched to some extent at this time, but the reference to Jerusalem will be more particularly in mind.

S.McC. Is it not interesting that in this same letter to Philadelphia we should have allusion to

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Christ as the One who has the key of David, David being linked with Jerusalem historically of old?

J.T. It is significant, and the intention was to bring that in, because David is one of the most outstanding characters in the Old Testament, particularly as a type of the Lord Jesus Himself.

S.McC. Would it be right to say that for this choice phase of assembly history the Lord has nothing less than the best in mind in the mention of David and the new Jerusalem?

J.T. And therefore it is not a mere remnant that is in mind, indeed that word could hardly be applied to the assembly at all. When the Spirit of God brings in the assembly He has in mind the whole idea, the whole idea of Jerusalem. And it will be well to keep in mind that Philadelphia refers to the assembly in its last phase, the closing phase, in which we are now; but it is not just a remnant, it is the whole idea. And so we have first the key of David, and then He who opens and no one shall shut, and shuts and no one shall open. "I know thy works", He says, that is, the assembly's works, Philadelphia's works; "behold, I have set before thee" -- that is, the assembly in Philadelphia -- "an opened door" -- not an 'open' one simply, but one that has been shut but is now opened, which refers to the great revival that we now have part in. It is "an opened door, which no one can shut, because thou hast a little power" that is because the Spirit has place with us; we have "a little power". The word 'little' would refer to our appreciation of it, not to littleness in the power itself, because it is the Spirit of God that is in mind -- "and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name", which is also very precious. It is not that we are Plymouth Brethren, or anything of the kind; that is all to be repudiated, utterly repudiated, any such name; but the Lord

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says, "Thou ... hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name". The Lord cherishes that thought, that we love His name. Then He continues, "Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet" -- which is another thing to have before us. Not that we look for homage or anything like idolatry amongst us, surely not; but still, the Lord is saying to us that He is honouring us because of these facts that He mentions, and amongst them is that "they shall come" -- that is these that say they are Jews -- "and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee". Beautiful thought! The Lord says, "that I have loved thee". We cherish the thought of the Lord's love to us, that He loves us; it is the whole assembly however that is in mind. He goes on, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience" -- another thing to think of, patience -- "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial" -- the hour of trial which is the great tribulation that is to come presently; it is not far off, it is certainly coming -- "which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth". And then the word finally, "I come quickly: hold fast what thou hast" -- let us not give way one inch of the truth -- "hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown". And then, "He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God" -- a thing we would greatly value to be, a pillar in the temple of God -- "and he shall go no more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name". So there is much encouragement in all these wonderful statements from the Lord's own mouth to us as gathered here in relation to the

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Scriptures and the truth generally, the fellowship generally.

S.McC. So that it is important that while the few of us here may be only a section of the assembly, we should never have less than the whole assembly in mind and before us all the time.

J.T. Exactly. I think the Lord would say to us that if we think of ourselves as a section, He would rebuke it, because He is thinking of the whole assembly, He has never given up the thought of it.

C.A.M. Would it be right to say that "he that overcomes" is one who has entered into the meaning of the historic Jerusalem that we have been occupied with? I wondered whether you would make a remark as to the relation of the historic Jerusalem to the Jerusalem that we are looking at now. Has the glory of this Jerusalem that we are to be occupied with now been acquired through all that wonderful spiritual history?

J.T. I think that; not only the revival as we call it -- and rightly call it -- but the whole history from the beginning down, from Paul down, is in mind; and especially the sufferings of the Reformation, the terrible sufferings that the brethren endured during the time of the Reformation. The Lord is hinting at it here, that He will not put any more burden upon us; He is not going to call us to any great suffering or persecution so far as I can see until the end, and that ought to be comforting to us. "I ... will keep thee", He says, meaning, I will preserve thee; "I ... will keep thee out of the hour of trial". It is an hour of trial, others will feel it; it is to come on all the world to try those that dwell upon the earth. It is a very solemn consideration.

C.A.M. It impressed me that the occupation with the historic Jerusalem was of great value as coming before what we are considering now; the matter of suffering and the actual knowledge of temple conditions

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that we were speaking of in Luke precede this wonderful, spiritual, and glorious idea.

J.T.Jr. Do you think the young men should look for this preservation from the hour of trial when we think of the present war conditions?

J.T. Very good. I think the Lord values it when we count on His promises, when we reckon on His promises. He will surely make them good. And the younger ones will do well to heed that word 'keep', that we can keep ourselves; let each one see to it, to keep himself. But the Lord has promised that He will keep us too, out of the hour of trial.

C.T. Would you say that the Lord was speaking of new Jerusalem to the woman in John 4 when He said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father"? Did He have new Jerusalem in mind at that time?

J.T. Well, just so; He had in mind, I would say, the whole history of christianity where the true worship of God is apparent. In the Old Testament you might say the true worship of God was not fully there; but the true worship of God has come now, so that "we are the circumcision", the apostle Paul says, "who worship by the Spirit of God, and boast in Christ Jesus, and do not trust in flesh" (Philippians 3:3). Those are the actual persons that the apostle means are really worshipping God.

J.McK. Could you help us as to the idea of 'new'? Do you connect it with reconciliation as having been worked out in Christ according to 2 Corinthians 5? It says in verse 17, "So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new: and all things are of the God who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ". It is not the idea of purging or cleansing, but it is entirely new, is it not?

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J.T. Wholly new, which is christianity proper; that is christianity proper, it belongs to christianity. There is the quotation we have just had from Philippians, "For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and boast in Christ Jesus, and do not trust in flesh". "We", there are those that can be so designated at this present time, and we want to be amongst them. "We are the circumcision", that is, we have dealt with the flesh, because in circumcision it is a question of the flesh being cut off. We are the circumcision, the real christians, the real believers in Christ, and we rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh. We worship God by the Spirit. It is not simply worshipping in the spirit of the thing, as people say. We are the circumcision who worship God by the Spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh; we want to be sure we belong to those who are worshipping in that sense.

J.W. In contrast to the synagogue of Satan?

J.T. That is the word I had in mind.

A.S.B. What about concision?

J.T. Concision is partial, it is not equal to the full thought of circumcision; it is a poor affair.

D.H. In verse 12 it says, "He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God ... and my new name". Is that open to every one of us?

J.T. Those are special ones. It applies to us if we are walking in the truth; in that case we are the overcomers, that is to say we belong to that class of people, those who overcome. The Lord Himself brings the idea into His own history, that He had overcome; "I have overcome", He says.

N.B. Have you any thought as to why there is no reference to the Father in this address? In

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addressing the overcomer the Lord refers to "my Father" in both Sardis and Laodicea, but it is "my God" here throughout.

J.T. The idea of 'Father' is not much found in Revelation, which is not like the epistle to the Ephesians or to the Colossians. The word 'Father' is not very much mentioned, especially as to being the Father of Christ, that He is Christ's Father.

J.W. The brethren are held together in a sense in their souls of what "the word of my patience" is, and linked with that, the word, "I come quickly". That would be a reality to them, would it not, in these days of revival in which we live?

J.T. And as has already been remarked, the whole assembly is in mind; the Lord has nothing less than that before Him. The whole assembly is in mind and we want to be sure that we belong to that. We are here this Monday morning after the first day of the week because we love the Lord; we are here according to His mind, looking at the Scriptures, and in the fellowship -- the fellowship of the truth.

J.W.F. Would you say that the exercise of testing what is real goes through? At Ephesus they tried those who said they were apostles and found out they were liars; and here they are trying those who say they are Jews.

J.T. They are the same class of people; "they ... are not", the Lord says, they say things and they are not. John's epistle would help us on those lines, how everything is presented in the abstract, we might say; and if anything is to be said that is negative, it is said absolutely.

J.W.F. It would appear that the exercise of discrimination goes right through.

N.S. While the name of 'Father' is not mentioned in the promise to the overcomer in Philadelphia, would you say that it involves the whole thought of

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the economy, and the new Jerusalem in connection with it? There is reference to "my God", "my new name", and to "new Jerusalem". Would that involve the whole thought of the economy?

J.T. You mean that the Lord would convey that He had the economy in mind in what He was saying?

N.S. I was thinking of the greatness of the address to Philadelphia; the whole thought of the assembly, as you were saying, is in the address to it; and the promise to the overcomer would seem to bring before us the greatness of the whole thought of the way God has come out in revelation and the relation in which the assembly is set.

J.T. That is true; the whole idea is in mind in what the Lord said.

A.N.W. So that the "my" really involves the incarnation, does it not? "My God".

J.T. Just so. It is a remarkable expression in the sense in which the Lord uses those words -- His God.

J.T.Jr. This period is a time of opening up; there has been an opening up of the truth ever since Mr. Darby's time, has there not?

J.T. I would say that, ever since the revival; we rightly call it a revival of the truth. But then we also spoke of the fact that the whole truth is in mind, including the Reformation and the suffering that entered into it; the saints have gone through the whole matter. The Lord is crediting them with it; He knows how to value it, He knows how to love us and to show His love. He loves because of any faithfulness that is manifest in our walk and ways.

A.H.P. Do you think the thought of Philadelphia might suggest persons that refuse to be diverted from the original thought of the assembly as in purpose, but hold tenaciously to the divine idea of the assembly as suggested in Paul's ministry as to it?

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J.T. As in purpose, I would go with that fully. Say a little more.

A.H.P. It seems to me that the moral features that characterise Philadelphia are features that are carried over into the eternal condition of things, the city coming down out of heaven but linked on with the idea of the original thought; it is not an impaired condition, it is what was in God's mind from the outset.

J.T. So that what comes down out of heaven is going back into heaven, but first it qualifies itself. It has come out of heaven and goes back into heaven; that really applies to ourselves, those who belong to the assembly and are walking in the truth of it, that we have come out of heaven morally and now we are going into it actually. We belong to heaven. We are not Jews in the sense of the Jewish position in the millennium; we are a heavenly people.

J.T.Jr. You are stressing the need of making everything of Paul at the beginning, and what he received from heaven. Do you think what came out in Luther was also from heaven; I mean as to faith? Did heaven assert itself then? And then at the present time it is a question of what is coming from heaven; the whole thing is connected with what has come out of heaven from the beginning.

J.T. Just so. Really it is what comes out of heaven morally, that is, the work of God is there, it is implied. But then there is the actual thing, the literal actual thing, that we are going into heaven, each one of us by name. We are known by name and each one of us is to go into heaven according to his name. Luther acquired a great name; justification by faith came out through him and no doubt he will go into heaven. We should have great respect for him; even though there was defect in his course, he stood well at a moment when others failed.

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S.McC. Mr. Stoney used to say that nothing goes into heaven but what came out of heaven. I suppose he was alluding to the character of the work of God.

J.T. I remember that; that is the reason I added the word 'morally'.

Ques. Would the thought in relation to the going in and the coming out be seen in Psalm 122? It says, "I rejoiced when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of Jehovah. Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem. Jerusalem, which art built as a city that is compact together".

J.T. "Our feet shall stand", that is beautiful.

Rem. Then I was thinking of the future, of eternity, of abiding in that place. It says in Psalm 125, "They that confide in Jehovah are as mount Zion, which cannot be moved; it abideth for ever. Jerusalem! -- mountains are round about her, and Jehovah is round about his people, from henceforth and for evermore".

J.T. So that passage and others like it may well be compared with the revival that we have been dealing with. Only the revival that we are dealing with, in connection with Mr. Darby and those who worked with him, has in mind the whole idea; not a remnant but the whole idea. And that stands now; it is the whole idea we are dealing with, the whole idea of the assembly.

A.S.B. So that while in verse 8 it says, "Because thou hast a little power", that is, the power is modified, there is no modification or depreciation in relation to "my word" and "my name".

J.T. I think the Lord must have greatly treasured what He was able to say to Philadelphia; He must have treasured it in His own heart; it represented in His mind the whole idea of the assembly, what is constantly before Him. "I speak", Paul says, "as to Christ, and as to the assembly" (Ephesians 5:32). That was the

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characteristic of Paul's ministry all the time, that he spoke of Christ and the assembly.

J.R.H. Would what has been said as to what comes out of heaven and what goes into heaven help us in relation to verse 11, "Hold fast what thou hast"? I was thinking how the Holy Spirit would help us in this, to keep it by the Holy Spirit which dwells in us.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Is the thought of "I will write", the impression of what we have been having the last three days, the impression of new Jerusalem, that the Lord is writing it on us?

J.T. Very good. It is a remarkable thing the kind of material the Lord uses, it is you yourself. "I will write upon him"; the kind of material He uses is persons.

C.D. Is the kind of man that God puts glory upon indicated in the acacia wood in the boards of the tabernacle? They were overlaid with gold, and also the cypress wood in Solomon's house was overlaid with gold. Does that suggest the kind of man or humanity that God puts glory upon?

J.T. Just so; gold is used in that sense for what is thoroughly genuine, what can be regarded as thoroughly genuine; so that whether it is humanity or the assembly or whatever we may say, as looked at in that light it is thoroughly genuine.

C.D. I was wondering if that is what we have here in the overcomers, those who have been faithful, the kind of men that God glorifies. He puts glory upon them in verse 12, does He not?

J.T. He does indeed. Think of what the Lord did, how He could go over the ground in His own mind, we might say, speaking reverently; He goes over the ground including the names of the persons that He commends, the very names; He keeps them in His mind. Then the new name, "my new name",

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He says, that is another thing. We marvel at the Lord using that as to Himself!

S.McC. What does that convey to your mind, "my new name"?

J.T. It must be something that He has not taken on before; it is brought in now, the time has come for it, that is the way I would look at it; the time has come for it.

A.N.W. Why is overcoming necessary, even in Philadelphian conditions?

J.T. I would look at the word 'overcoming' as referring to the whole position on the earth, whatever it is that we have to overcome.

N.B. What is involved in being a pillar?

J.T. It is distinction I think; a pillar is what distinguishes one. A person is distinguished by what he is.

Rem. Is that not seen in Galatians 2? There we have those that were conspicuous communicating nothing, like, I suppose, the Jews here who say they are Jews and are not; but then lower down in the chapter it speaks of James and Cephas and John who were conspicuous as being pillars; Paul says they "gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship".

J.T. We are told what the conspicuousness was; they were pillars.

S.McC. In relation to "my new name": in this revival that we have been alluding to, especially in the last fifty years, there has been a constant opening up of the truth as to the Person of Christ.

J.T. I am glad you do not say one hundred and fifty, because we commonly do that; but the last fifty years has peculiarly had that feature in connection with the truth as to the service of God in the assembly. You have that in mind?

S.McC. Exactly, and the way that the Person of Christ has been distinguished in it in our souls.

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J.T. The Person of Christ, that is to say His sonship; the sonship of Christ. People used to say that He was Son eternally, but He became Son in time.

J.T.Jr. Then do you connect "my new name" with the Lord's position in the sanctuary, that is, as Minister of the sanctuary in the opening up of the service of God?

J.T. Very good. He is the Minister of the sanctuary, He is the One that is in charge of the service, that is what is meant, as Aaron was in the Old Testament. The Lord Jesus was seen in Moses and Aaron; they were taking care of the service of God and the testimony.

J.R.H. Would this scripture help us as to the place that Jerusalem has in the service of God?

J.T. Quite so, but then it is Jerusalem that is come down from God out of heaven. It is what is come down from God out of heaven; you mean that?

J.R.H. That is what I had in mind. Yesterday morning the hymn was given out: 'Rest of the saints above, Jerusalem of God!' and it seemed to give a distinct line to the meeting.

J.T. I can quite understand that it was a distinct line, because it is what has really come down from heaven, either morally or literally. The literality of it will be when we come out with the Lord Jesus as like Him, "when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2). When we come out with Him as we see Him, as like Him, then we shall come down from God out of heaven to have part in all that God is going on with on the earth. I think it is wonderful that we should have things of this kind before us and be able to speak of them to one another intelligently and feelingly.

S.McC. Might I ask at this moment in relation to what you have just been saying, if you have any

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difficulty with giving out an indirect hymn in the service of God?

J.T. Not if it conveys the truth.

S.McC. There are some who think we should only sing or give out hymns in assembly service that directly address divine Persons; but the hymn that has been alluded to, which is a beautiful hymn, is really an indirect hymn as you might say, but full of spiritual wealth.

J.T. It is indeed. That is a beautiful hymn, it is a treasure, one of the things that we have come to -- part of the inheritance that we have come into. Mr. Darby has a number of hymns in the book and I regard them as an inheritance come down for the assembly in our times.

C.D. The singing of such a hymn engages you with divine Persons, even though not addressed to divine Persons.

J.McK. Does that song of the sons of Korah, (Psalm 87), help us in what you have been saying? "Jehovah loveth the gates of Zion more than all the habitations of Jacob. Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God".

J.T. Just so. I would read that in the spirit of it, because it has not come into christianity; the Psalms have not come into christianity and therefore we speak of them in the spirit of them.

W.McK. What is involved in the expression, "from my God", in Revelation 3? It is not just that the holy city comes down out of heaven, but it comes from God.

J.T. It is to give it full distinction, full character, I would say; coming from God is everything; everything that is good is there and to be admired, and it comes down out of heaven, from God.

S.McC. And would it suggest that the assembly is in complete accord with the mediatorial position? The Lord Jesus said, "I came forth from God";

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and again it says, "Jesus, knowing that ... he came out from God and was going to God" (John 13:3). I am not referring to the assembly as being the mediator in any way, but she is in accord with the mediatorial position.

J.T. Quite so, in accord with it; and then if you get the spirit of a thing too, that gives great character to what is being said. Even although the letter may not be fully in accord with it, the spirit is the spirit of a thing, the spirit of truth, for instance.

A.S.B. Does that enter into the close of chapter 16 of John's gospel in that way, where so much is made of the Spirit? The disciples say to the Lord, "Now we know that thou knowest all things, and hast not need that any one should demand of thee. By this we believe that thou art come from God". And then would you say chapter 17 would have to do with the ornamenting of what is going back to God?

J.T. Very good. I am glad you say all that; it is very beautiful. What comes out of heaven goes back into heaven; it is qualified to do that.

J.W. And would the lines of quality be ever before us? A pillar would be a choice thought, would it not? And the name of my God would be a feature connected with the renown of God.

J.T. Oh, yes. There is nothing greater than what is said to be of God.

A.S.B. Then are we to understand that the pillar suggests the substantive character of the thing and its permanency, and that the writing in principle is upon the pillar?

J.T. That is good. I think the idea of a pillar is visible ornamentation, something that is visible and adds to what is being done or said.

J.W. Do we understand then that things are obtaining spiritually now in accordance with these

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verses in Revelation 3, and that they will come out literally in Revelation 21?

J.T. I would say that.

Ques. We say that the assembly is of heavenly origin. Is that because we are taken out of Christ?

J.T. Well, it is the work of God; that is what I would mean by it, that God has wrought and we are the product of His work. The product of His work is in mind.

Rem. References have been made to the Lord that He came from God, "knowing ... that he came out from God and was going to God"; but then we say that the assembly too has come from God, from heaven.

J.T. But not in the same sense that the Lord came from God, because we are creatures; but we are creatures that God has wrought in. God has wrought in us personally so that there is something corresponding to what the Lord is Himself; but what the Lord says of Himself is infinite. We cannot limit that at all, it is an infinite idea. He came from God and He went to God; that is infinite. Anything of that kind we should be most careful about, so that we keep the infinite thought in our minds and make it clear that we think that it is infinite. Because divine Persons are infinite, the Father and the Son and the Spirit are infinite. No angel is infinite, nor any other creature; none save divine Persons are infinite.

A.S.B. Is what you say as to God's working borne out in John 17 where the Lord speaks to the Father about "the men whom thou gavest me out of the world"? He says, "They were thine, and thou gavest them me".

J.T. That is, the Father really had wrought in them, and the Lord alludes to that.

A.N.W. A man sent from God such as John is another matter, is it not?

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J.T. It is.

J.W.D. Does the use of the personal pronoun involve distinction of certain persons with these characteristics in the millennium? It says, "He that overcomes", "he shall go no more out", and "I will write upon him". Does that involve distinctiveness in certain persons?

J.T. Surely. But of course it would be only creatures that are in mind there, you mean that, of course. They are only creatures, but they are distinguished.

J.W.D. Yes; I mean that in the millennial setting of "the city of my God" there will be certain persons distinguished in these features. Will that be so?

J.T. That is exactly what I think.

S.McC. In regard to what you have been stressing as to the heavenly side, would the present move of the head of the system so well known to us all, that is so opposed to the truth, be a definite assailing by the enemy of what we are considering, the heavenly side?

J.T. I think it is most terrible to think of. I am quite aware of what you mean. It is most terrible, the boldness of it, the barefacedness of it, that at this last time they should be coming forward pretending to have new thoughts and new doctrines. It is blasphemy; to my mind it is just that. It is terrible to think of their coming forward at this stage of things, when communism is taking the ground from their feet; they want to re-establish themselves by assuming to bring out new doctrines. There is nothing in these doctrines but blasphemy. We were recently having a word about women in John's gospel, and amongst them is Mary. It speaks of defectiveness in her, of actual defectiveness in Mary. She is not like a divine Person, she is absolutely and entirely unlike that, because she really sinned in the way she spoke to the Lord, telling Him to do things.

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I am only referring to it because of what you say as to the place certain ones give her; she is just a creature, although a wonderfully honoured creature. Why should we not speak honourably of her too? We can and do, but at the same time she is just a creature, and it is just blasphemous that they should come out so boldly in bringing these things forward about Mary. In fact they go so far as to say 'the mother of God', a terrible thing to say.

C.C.T. So it would help us to hold fast what we have. Is that the idea now?

J.T. To hold fast what we have. But now we might proceed to chapter 21. Will you just read the passage again?

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea exists no more".

"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice out of the heaven, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God. And he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall not exist any more, nor grief, nor cry, nor distress shall exist any more, for the former things have passed away. And he that sat on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he says to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful. And he said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to him that thirsts of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be to him God, and he shall be to me son. But to the fearful and unbelieving, and sinners, and those who make themselves abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters,

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and all liars, their part is in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death" (Revelation 21:1 - 8).

J.T. The wording is wonderful, especially what the Lord says in verse 7, "He that overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be to him God, and he shall be to me son". Wonderful! The Lord could use those words as to us and as to Himself; He is going to be God to us.

A.H.P. Would it be right to link this passage that we have read with Paul's prayer in the first chapter of Ephesians where he speaks of God's inheritance in the saints? It says in Ephesians 1:17, "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him, being enlightened in the eyes of your heart, so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints". I am enquiring whether this passage we read in Revelation 21 is the answer to Paul's prayer in Ephesians 1, God's inheritance in the saints affording God this choice vessel for the outshining of His glory?

J.T. Very good. You mean that the saints are the vessel for the outshining? That is so.

A.N.W. Is that in line with the fact that this is the only time that John mentions sonship?

J.T. I think that is quite right, that it is the only time he mentions sonship. A very remarkable thing it is too, because he mentions children constantly. That is to say, John deals with the family of God, while Paul deals with the same persons but distinguishes them by the word 'sons'.

S.McC. In regard to this word, "I will be to him God, and he shall be to me son", do you understand that to refer to eternity?

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J.T. It could refer to eternity undoubtedly, because that is what the Lord is -- God. "He is the true God and eternal life" (1 John 5:20); I mean to say that is a definite statement as to Him in John's epistle. But here it is just saying that some persons will have this great privilege -- that God regards Himself as their God. Of course it could not but mean the same thing, because it says in John's epistle that Christ is the true God and eternal life. That means that He is God, a wonderful fact that we should keep in mind too. But then it says, "I will be to him God", that some person or persons will have the real enjoyment of the fact that Christ is God to them; and it is a great thing to feel -- Well, I know the Lord as God, I can speak to Him as God, and I know Him that He, as God, will speak to me. I revere Him, and at the same time I have the joy and consciousness that He is my God. We may say that He is our God.

H.B. Thomas says, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

J.T. It is the same thing; he accepted the fact.

A.N.W. The third verse is eternity, is it not? "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God".

J.T. That is the same thing, I would say. The Spirit of God loves to bring all this forward, especially in the book of Revelation, because it treats of the time when there is much denunciation of the truth, and great value attaches to those who hold it and value it.

S.McC. It is interesting that in verse 2 the definite article is omitted before "new Jerusalem", whereas in the letter to Philadelphia the definite article is used; it is "the new Jerusalem", whereas here it is,

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"I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem", as if it is what characterises her, do you think?

J.T. I do; and later on in verse 10 where we get the word again, it says, "And he carried me away in the Spirit, and set me on a great and high mountain, and shewed me the holy city, Jerusalem". There it is not called new, it is just "Jerusalem", but it is called "holy". It is well to notice omissions and the like in the passages read and to understand what they mean. "The holy city" is a greater thought than its being new.

S.McC. Would "the holy city" suggest that it is not just a state of innocence, but that the moral question has been completely resolved and we are in the presence of what is infinitely great?

J.T. So that the word 'holy' is greater than the word 'new', because it involves that something has been effected in it.

Ques. Would the words, "the holy city", have a particular bearing on the time of recovery? You remember it is spoken of in that way in Nehemiah 11.

J.T. You mean Nehemiah's time was a time of recovery corresponding with our own time? Just so, we might well note the correspondence.

J.W.D. Do you think the city idea goes through into eternity?

J.T. Oh, I think so, I think that is unquestionable.

J.W.D. As a city?

J.T. Well, quite so. God can keep things in that way.

J.W.D. It is not that the apostle is identifying what it was as going in, or does it still retain the definite form of a city?

J.T. Well, I should say that; why should it not? I mean to say if God wishes to keep it like that why can He not do it?

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J.W.D. Then do you think that it involves the idea of administration still?

J.T. Well, I do not know; it is not necessary to make it that. The idea of a city is a precious thought, it is so much mentioned in regard to Jerusalem that God evidently cherishes it.

K.R. In the eternal setting the city is seen coming down, the same as in the millennial setting.

J.T. That is the fact; it is the same city and it is of the same value. Undoubtedly the idea of a city will go through into eternity. It is a thing to be considered as to why God cherishes it so much. He has a right to cherish it; it has been much in His mind from the very outset. And now it is a new city, it is new Jerusalem, so that it is entirely fitted for eternal conditions.

S.McC. Is it not right to think of administration as continuing into eternity in some way? I mean love is never static, love will serve, so we might think of it in that way as going into eternity?

J.T. Just so, very good. I do think that these things we are saying are true, that these elements such as the holy city and the new Jerusalem are going through into eternity; and it would mean that God greatly values them from His own point of view, as of the earliest days of His ways here on earth.

A.D.S. Is there any link with what the apostle Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:17? He says, "So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new". This chapter says, "And he that sat on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new". I was thinking of what is designated as new.

J.T. That is what is in mind; the things are new and the things are holy, and it is becoming more and more clear to us as we are speaking that these things are going into eternity, into eternal conditions.

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As to why God is bringing them into eternity -- we have to leave it; but He is going to have such an idea eternally as a city, and there is a name given to it, and we ourselves belong to it; that is the greatest thing to think of, that we ourselves belong to it, our very selves.

J.B. Is it not remarkable that in Matthew 27 it says that the bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep arose, and that they entered into the holy city?

J.T. That would mean that the idea had already taken form and was usable. The idea had already taken form before the holy city came down.

J.R.H. In 1 John 3:2 it says, "What we shall be has not yet been manifested". Evidently sonship is in view there. When it says here, "He shall be to me son", is this the manifestation in its future sense?

J.T. When it was spoken here it was a future thing; but while it is literally future for us, we are sons of God already by faith; we all know it. In Galatians 3:26 we have, "for ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus"; that is how we are in sonship; it is a question of faith. We are not literally sons because we are still liable to death, but we are coming to it, and in a sense have already come to it, because we have the faith of it. You see it is a question of faith. We are sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

J.R.H. So John in his epistle and in this word here has sonship in actuality in view?

J.T. Exactly. But with anything that is stated in that sense, it is a question as to whether we have faith for it. If we have faith for it we are entitled to regard it as ours. But we are not yet literally sons because we are liable to death and to sickness; while sonship belongs to the eternal idea, sonship belongs to God. Faith makes the thing applicable and real now.

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J.R.H. That helps to bring out the distinction between Paul's teaching as to the matter and John's.

Ques. Does Romans 8 bring in the literal idea of sonship, "awaiting adoption"?

J.T. "Awaiting adoption", which is sonship. That is to say, we cannot say we are in all these things except in the principle of them, now, because we are liable to sickness and death, and those things do not belong to sonship. Still we have faith as to the whole matter, and faith makes the thing real and sure to us.

Ques. What is implied in the word in verse 6, "It is done"?

J.T. I would say, as good as done, because God, the Lord, is saying it Himself and we must take it that what He is saying will actually become so. We are sure about it. When the Lord says, "It is done", that is, in ordinary words, as good as done, because God has said it. It is going to come to pass because He has said it .

A.S.B. Does this link on with Abraham? It says in Romans 4:17 concerning him, "And calls the things which be not as being". And then in Hebrews 11:10 it says that "he waited for the city which has foundations, of which God is the artificer and constructor".

J.T. Very good. I was thinking of that because of what was said a minute ago, that "if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation" (2 Corinthians 5:17). It is not that he is a new creation, but "if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation". It is the actual fact stated; it is not explained. We may well accept the fact that there is such a thing as new creation; whether I belong to it is not the question; the fact is that there is such a thing as that, and that it is going to be eternally so.

T.L.S. Should it not affect us that one man saw all this? Should it not have authority in our souls?

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J.T. John saw it, you mean? Quite so. That is one great thing he emphasises, what he saw.

S.McC. Elsewhere you have alluded to what is abstract and what is anticipative. Would that not help us in what you have been saying?

J.T. I think it would. The word 'abstract' is hardly understood; we do not understand much about it but I would say that John's epistle illustratively conveys the idea of what is abstract.

A.S.B. You have said that things that are abstract are divine certainties, positive certainties.

J.T. Divine certainties -- very excellent phraseology.

J.W. So that what we understand and enter into now spiritually will come into display in the world to come and continue throughout the eternal state?

J.T. Just so; the expression, 'the world to come', became more and more real in Mr. Raven's time; he used it much, and taught about it much, as to what was meant by it, and the Lord used him to bring out the reality of things where they had always been treated only as doctrine. He brought out the reality of things, that they existed in the Spirit, that they really existed.

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GOD'S THOUGHT OF A CITY AS SEEN IN JERUSALEM (5)

Revelation 21:9 - 27; Revelation 22:1 - 5

J.T. The occurrence of the number twelve in this chapter is to be specially noted, as pointing to administrative power. The numeral implies the idea of administration, but in a peculiar manner as set out in this chapter. Perhaps in no part of Scripture is it set out more fully. It belongs to a series of symbols that prevail in the book of Revelation which is a book of symbols. Unless we understand symbols we cannot understand the book, but they are made very plain to us, the Spirit of God being here to help us. We have ears to hear and eyes to see; the eyes enter into it, but especially the ears, as the book of Revelation indicates; "He that hath an ear, let him hear". Therefore as the light comes to us at this time we should have our ears and eyes active, but especially our ears. The word 'see' is much used in the book, but the ears are especially stressed; as if God would leave no loophole for us in our natural way of thinking to indulge ourselves at a time like this; time is too precious to do that. There is no time for indulging our natural sight and feelings; it is a time for keeping our ears and eyes open to hear and see and get the truth. And first we should notice the remarkable word in verse 9, "And there came one of the seven angels which had had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying, Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife". One is peculiarly impressed with the great prevalence of marital touches, marital suggestions; they find a place in the relations of Christ and the assembly; the whole marital idea finally converges on Christ and the assembly; all else disappears.

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A.N.W. Must we allow the Spirit a special place in this matter? The apostle says, "he carried me away in the Spirit, and set me on a great and high mountain".

J.T. This is in keeping with what has been so pressed upon the brethren of recent times, that the Spirit should have, not only a place, but His full place in our minds and hearts; and certainly it is given to Him in the book of Revelation. In fact we have it strengthened in a peculiar way in the allusion to the seven Spirits of God in the beginning of the book, the seven Spirits; it is an increase in the idea of what is spiritual, what is of the Spirit.

J.W.D. Is there no thought of what is marital in connection with Israel in the millennium?

J.T. It is difficult to say that there is, at any rate in this book. We might go back to the Old Testament and carry forward some thoughts, but it looks to me as if the marital idea finally centres in Christ and the assembly. That is what I understand: Christ referring to the masculine side, and the assembly to the feminine side. I am not so sure that we can work out anything more than that in the whole Bible, because the assembly has the prime place in relation to Christ maritally. I am not so sure that Israel comes much into it; I think the Spirit of God is reserving it all for the assembly; that is the great thought of God, the great thought of the Lord, Christ and the assembly. We can of course refer to many references in the Old Testament, but then the question is whether these are not reserved finally for Christ and the assembly. Do you follow what I am saying?

J.W.D. Yes. I remember years ago the brethren used to speak much about the Jewish bride in the Song of Songs. But do you think that is just a merging idea?

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J.T. Well, I am not so sure about it. I think the Spirit of God has reserved the whole matter, the whole marital matter, for Christ and the assembly. That is the way Paul treats of it and I think we should listen to Paul on those lines. He says, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly" (Ephesians 5:32). He has spoken of much, of course, but he finally centralises on Christ and the assembly.

N.B. What is the distinction between the bride as presented in this paragraph and in the previous one?

J.T. Not much, except that she is more a figure in the previous paragraph, prepared as "a bride adorned for her husband". It is a figure. But here in verse 9 it says, "Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife". That is definite, that is the final thought. She is seen as the Lamb's wife and the word 'Lamb' in the Revelation refers to suffering; that is, Christ was to suffer; He suffered in view of that.

K.R. Is "the bride, the Lamb's wife", what is substantial, and the holy city the symbol now?

J.T. That is right, the holy city is the symbol, just a symbol; but it is still a city, as we had this morning. We do not ignore the word 'city', it is emphasised as if God would retain it and keep it; a precious thought, precious on the whole page of Scripture. God is entitled to His rights in all these matters and we are to allow them fully to Him. In the gospel of Matthew there is a marriage referred to, the marriage of the king's son, and we should allow the King His rights, that is, referring to God, what God has in Christ and the assembly. We must make full allowance for that.

T.L.S. John the baptist seems to appreciate the matter: he said, "He that has the bride is the bridegroom" (John 3:29).

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J.T. Just so; he does not tell us who the bride is of course; but I think it would be quite right and fair to carry the whole matter into the book of Revelation as we now have it. If we are not told who the bride is in John's idea, then we might as well leave it open, for he leaves it open.

A.N.W. Is the extent of the involvement of Israel in the matter seen in the gates? It says in verse 12, "having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel".

J.T. That follows up what we had this morning as to the place Israel has; and some of us perhaps have stressed that Israel will drop out. But we are encouraged to see that God has His own thoughts, He reserves His rights to His thoughts, and He has thoughts as to Israel. His first thoughts were in relation to Israel, they are the first part of the human race that is specialised, and we should allow God His rights in that He loves Israel.

S.McC. Would verse 12 show what He thinks of them in that their names are carried through?

J.T. I thought that, and the apostles of the Lamb corresponding with that in the number twelve. The apostles of the Lamb have the same kind of place in that sense, only that they must have precedence over Israel, because it is not 'old and new', but "new and old" in the Scripture. If things are compared it is the new first; and the apostles of the Lamb are certainly newer in that sense than the tribes of Israel, and I think we should so regard it.

J.T.Jr. While the thought of twelve began with Israel, it is not fully or rightly seen until we have the twelve apostles.

J.T. Quite so. Everything must take precedence with the Lord Jesus. He has become Man to carry out all the divine thoughts, and He must have His rights. I refer to the word 'rights' because He has

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such; He is a divine Person, He is God Himself, "who is over all, God blessed for ever" (Romans 9:5); and there must be rights attached to anything that refers to Him, and these rights must be in every way respected.

J.H. Would Paul be respecting them when he said, "to which our whole twelve tribes serving incessantly day and night hope to arrive" (Acts 26:7)?

J.T. That is a good scripture to bring up: "our whole twelve tribes". James and Paul both refer to them.

S.McC. Would the dispensational section of Romans, chapters 9, 10 and 11, show us what God thinks of Israel? While they may have dropped out for the moment, in view of the times of the gentiles, yet God is not relinquishing His thoughts.

J.T. I think that is excellent. We often note how the Lord Jesus is spoken of at the beginning of that section. Would you read it just to show how Paul felt about it?

"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great grief and uninterrupted pain in my heart, for I have wished, I myself, to be a curse from the Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen, according to flesh; who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises; whose are the fathers; and of whom, as according to flesh, is the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen". (Romans 9:1 - 5).

J.T. I think that is just enough to bring out how the Lord Jesus Himself is spoken of as "over all, God blessed for ever". So that we may rely on the fact that we have the right thought presented in those three chapters. They finish with a wonderful doxology which you might read for us in chapter 11.

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"For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor? or who has first given to him, and it shall be rendered to him? For of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen" (Romans 11:34 - 36).

J.T. We see how Paul is not, so to say, giving way to anyone as to his love for Israel; and he further states formally that all Israel shall be saved.

E.T.P. In that same section Paul says that "the gifts and the calling of God are not subject to repentance"; and the note there says, 'irrevocable', 'never to be regretted'. Does that mean that the primary thoughts of God as to Israel go through?

J.T. I am glad you refer to that: 'irrevocable', the thoughts of God go through and cannot be altered.

J.T.Jr. The Lord says in regard to the dead that God is not the God of the dead, He is the God of the living; He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. All live unto Him.

J.T. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob live to Him, live to God; that is very precious to think of.

J.T.Jr. Is that not the thought in regard to Israel, that all that is of God is carried through, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob suggesting that?

J.T. Just so. And then we have what happened on the mount of transfiguration, how Moses and Elias appear there; so that the divine thoughts are carried through and appear in the clearest place where God is pleased to place them. The mount of transfiguration was where the Lord Himself was transfigured before them, He was transfigured before the disciples.

Ques. Does Hebrews 11:39,40 confirm that? It says, "And these all, having obtained witness through faith, did not receive the promise, God having foreseen some better thing for us, that they

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should not be made perfect without us". So they are to be with us, is that right?

J.T. Very good. And the patriarchs are all mentioned in that chapter. So that it is forced upon us here, upon all of us, I believe, that God's thoughts remain; they are not changeable, they go right through. We are forced to think that God is reserving His thoughts for eternity. He has His own way of bringing them out in due time so that they shall shine where He wishes to place them. The word 'shine' is a good word to carry into these thoughts.

J.W.D. Have the apostles of the Lamb a special place in regard to Israel apart from the assembly? The Lord says of them that they are to sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Would that be something that is special to them?

J.T. Quite so; it is an apostolic reference.

J.W.D. Will they have some special place in the millennium in relation to Israel?

J.T. Yes, in relation to the twelve tribes of Israel, so that the apostles take precedence over the twelve tribes. But here we have the twelve tribes and we have the twelve apostles of the Lamb; so that there is a remarkable connection between them.

J.T.Jr. Is there not the thought too of the angels coming in? God's thoughts in regard of them are seen too: "at the gates twelve angels".

J.T. That is largely a matter of the numeral; you cannot make much of angels as to distinction, although we have archangels; but I would say they are relegated to the third place in God's order, that is, the assembly is first and Israel is second and the angels are third. That is the order I think in which the Scripture puts them.

J.T.Jr. The idea comes in in Revelation of myriads of angels. Are we to see the place in which God has put them?

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J.T. They are referred to as mighty, one angel doing so much as killing one hundred and eighty-five thousand men at once. What wonderful power they must have! That is what especially distinguishes them. We cannot say how many there are; we do know that there are archangels -- Michael is one -- but that is about all you could say as to distinction. Michael is especially spoken of as acting wisely and simply, and humbly too, in relation to the order in which God sets things. He did not bring in a railing accusation against the devil.

J.McK. Is the service of this angel to be noted of whom it says that "he carried me away in the Spirit"? Is there any significance as to that service in relation to the saints? I was wondering if there might be some suggestion as to angelic service for the saints now in relation to seeing or arriving at the understanding of things.

J.T. I do not think we could speak of it as to the saints as a characteristic thing; just one angel had this place; it is not a question of the saints generally, it was just a question of John, and the angel tells John what to do. John worships him, which is remarkable, and the angel corrects him. We cannot say that the angels are indwelt by the Spirit as we are. No creatures are indwelt by the Spirit so far as I know except the assembly. Angelic power is of course available to us: "Are they not all ministering spirits", it says, "sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14). That is a general fact as regard angels. They are not chief agents; they are just subservient or administrative; they are never viewed as chief. The saints are, and the Lord Jesus is supremely so of course; but angels are subservient to all of us, especially to the Lord Jesus, but to all those who are heirs of salvation. They are ministers to all those

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who are heirs of salvation. Therefore the saints have a superior place to angels. The Lord said that He could ask His Father for legions of angels if He wanted them; they are always there, they are under God's hand to be used, but they are not distinctive. God did not intend to bring out any great principle as to them as He has done regarding Israel and regarding the assembly.

J.W.F. Should we not accept as characteristic of angels at the present time that scripture you have quoted: "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service?"

J.T. I think we ought to. I remember that three years ago in New Zealand, we had a reading on the sufferings of Christ and the service of God; and it was brought out that saints are supported by angels in their sufferings, that angels are ready to help us in our sufferings; and the impression I got at that time has never left me as to the place angels have in service to us. So as you intimate, they ought to have a great place with us now, especially as to trade unionism; in that I think their service ought to be very great and sought after, not that we should pray to them, of course, that would be wrong, but to ask God about them, and to count on their support in these terrible experiences that we have to go through with trade unionism. It is the real difficulty of the moment, and I believe the angels are watching over it. They have helped in Australia peculiarly, and I believe they are ready to help us here too. I am sure that those of us who are suffering ought to count on them, to count on God regarding them fully in our prayer meetings, because they are available to us.

J.W. In Luke's gospel it is said of our Lord that an angel came and strengthened Him. Is that not affecting?

J.T. That is a very touching thought.

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Ques. The Lord says in the end of this book, "I Jesus have sent mine angel" (verse 16). Would that be just on a special occasion? He says "mine angel".

J.T. Just so; one available to Him that He used.

D.Macd. Peter experienced the help of an angel when he was in prison.

J.T. You might as well read it for us, because we do not all of us remember it; "And lo, an angel of the Lord came there, and a light shone in the prison: and having smitten the side of Peter, he roused him up, saying, Rise up quickly. And his chains fell off his hands. And the angel said to him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And he did so. And he says to him, Cast thine upper garment about thee and follow me" (Acts 12:7,8).

J.T. Very good; and I suppose we might with confidence refer to the angel smiting Peter on the side as an indication that he knew what the Lord had had to endure, that His side had been smitten; the angel implied that Peter should understand that, and no doubt he did. Peter understood himself that the Lord had sent His angel to support him. Then Rhoda was another agent at the same time, a thing for the sisters to remember, that a young girl in such a time could render service to a great servant like Peter. She stood her ground too against persecution.

C.C.T. The angel went the full way with Peter until he was ready to go on himself. It says that "they went down one street, and immediately the angel left him".

J.T. In due time he left him, as if Peter is left to himself now and God will help him.

A.D.S. It says in verse 11, "And Peter, being come to himself, said, Now I know certainly that the Lord has sent forth his angel and has taken me out

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of the hand of Herod and all the expectation of the people of the Jews".

J.T. "Now I know", showing that he had come back to consciousness. I have heard people speaking of Peter's sleep reproachfully but it showed that he was superior to the circumstances, and that his faith was in the Lord. He slept, but then the angel smote him on the side which would be a touch of love because the Lord had had the same experience Himself. But now he has come back to consciousness, he knew where he was, which is a very touching thing too, showing that the Lord takes account of us when we are unconscious or sleeping.

T.U. Would there be further encouragement as to angelic service in Acts 27 where the angel of God stood by Paul? I was thinking of it particularly in relation to the current exercises about the union. He seems to get a strengthening word as to the matter of the moment.

J.T. "An angel of ... God ... stood by me" (Acts 27:23). Very beautiful. And later in the chapter he stood up and broke bread, he led the way in the breaking of bread; it was not the breaking of bread in the ordinary sense, but they had been fasting and Paul led the way to normalcy for them, to eat ordinary food and get strength for the service of God.

A.B. Is there something special in the thought "he carried me away in the Spirit", in relation to this great matter of the holy city, Jerusalem? I was thinking of the beginning of Revelation where John says, "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day".

J.T. John had had that experience already, you mean? Just so. And that brings up another question which we ought to mention, that the Lord's day is not properly attended to by the brethren. That is what I have noticed generally. We are very negligent as to respecting the Lord's day; we do all sorts of

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things on the Lord's day, whereas it is the Lord's day and should be respected; we should not desecrate it.

A.S.B. You have said elsewhere, and one has to acknowledge it, that we have made the Lord's day pretty much like an ordinary day, whereas reverence and what is spiritual should mark us on the Lord's day.

J.T. I am sure if it is the Lord's day we should respect the Lord; the very title should be respected. We should not make it ordinary, not make a holiday out of it; there is too much of that I am sure and the Lord would give a word as to it; He would encourage us to take a word as to it.

A.N.W. And yet not as under law, but under the Lord, out of respect for Him.

J.T. Just so, not under the law but under the Lord; it is the Lord's authority on the Lord's day.

D.M.H. "A great and high mountain" -- would not that correspond now to moral elevation?

J.T. It would indeed; but still it was literal in certain cases because the Lord Himself went up to a mountain in Matthew 5; He went up to a high mountain and sat down and the disciples came to Him and He taught them; He opened His mouth and taught them. The Lord led the way in that sense, so that it is more than a mere figure; it is a literal thought, the thought of elevation, a very great thought, and it enters into so many things. Paul for instance had a remarkable elevation; he was caught up to the third heaven; we do not know of anybody that ever was caught up but himself, and it was fourteen years before he mentioned it. But still he did mention it and it is there for us to pay attention to.

J.W.F. Elevation is sometimes in view of observation, and it speaks here of John observing, being shown something.

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C.C.T. I was wondering as to when the Lord's day actually starts for us. I thought you had said it was at the breaking of bread, but does it not start before that?

J.T. Oh certainly. There are twenty-four hours in the day, but twelve would cover the responsible part of it. "Are there not twelve hours in the day?" the Lord says in John 11:9. There are twelve hours in the responsible day, and I would say the day begins as we take on the day's responsibility.

H.B. Have you not pointed out that the "first day of the week" began with glory in that Christ was raised from among the dead by the glory of the Father?

J.T. Pardon me, but that is not the idea of the Lord's day; we are now speaking of the Lord's day, which is a dignified idea, an authoritative idea, whereas the first day of the week is an entirely different viewpoint. The 'week' is the word to note there, it is the term or the time which is proper to christianity. I believe the first day of the week refers to christianity, and to what is done in christianity; but that is not the idea of the Lord's day. The first day of the week is a question of privilege, but the Lord's day implies authority, that we should be respectful of it in everything that we do.

J.B. Does the note as to it in the first chapter of Revelation help us? It says there, "the 'dominical' or 'lordly' day -- characterised by belonging to the Lord, as 'Lord's'" (1 Corinthians 11:20).

J.T. That is quite right, the 'lordly' day; it is an authoritative day, that is the idea.

A.N.W. Is it not just as dominical as the Supper? The word applies to both the day and the Supper.

A.B. Does the hymn express it: 'he Spirit's realm commands us On this most favoured day' (Hymn 376)?

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J.T. Well, quite so; but the first day of the week properly fits into that side of the matter.

T.U. Speaking practically, does the Lord's day begin for us when we awake in the morning? No matter what time we awake, the first thing should be that we come under the authority of the Lord.

J.T. Quite so.

A.D.S. In Acts 20 the first day is connected with the breaking of bread. It says in verse 7, "And the first day of the week, we being assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed to them, about to depart on the morrow".

J.T. That shows that it is a privileged day, when the disciples came together to break bread; and I think that is the thing we should have in mind; not simply the Lord's day but the first day of the week. The week is a term in relation to christianity so far as I understand. The month links with Judaism of old in connection with the passover and the like, but the week is a period of time that relates to christianity.

Ques. If we go back to the original day, the day that God introduced at the beginning, it says that the evening and the morning were the first day.

J.T. The day begins with the evening when it is the Jews that we are dealing with.

C.M. Speaking of the evening and the morning, at seven o'clock on Saturday evening here on the eastern seaboard of this country, the dear brethren in New Zealand are coming together to break bread.

J.T. We cannot interfere with divine order. God made the evening and the morning and the day, God has done that. We have to be governed by the sun; God has appointed the sun to regulate the day, so we have to go by that. It is a question of when the sun comes up in the heavens where we are. The actual creative facts that enter into the day have to be borne in mind. God has done that; we

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may use daylight saving time, but that is a poor thing after all, because we ought to abide by what God has done creatively. All these matters are under divine order in creation.

N.B. What day would the psalmist have in his mind when he said, "This is the day that Jehovah hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it" (Psalm 118:24)?

J.T. That is a question of the Old Testament and of what God had ordered at that time, as to what it actually refers to. Of course it might be taken up in relation to the feasts. The saints in the Old Testament went according to the divine order in their time keeping: they recognised the length of the nights and the length of the days as we do now; that is to say we must respect the divine order whatever it may be.

J.McK. It says as to Paul when he was in his own hired house, that he spoke "from early morning to evening" (Acts 28:23). Is that the moral way in which we should observe the day?

J.T. Just so; whatever Scripture authorises we can easily follow and God will be with us.

C.C.T. If we truly get into our hearts what we are saying about the Lord's day, would it not help us in the service of God?

J.T. Quite so, because of the moral element in it; there is a moral element in the expression "the Lord's day", and that ought to help us. Everything that refers to God helps us if we observe it.

H.B. I suppose the great feature of Jerusalem here is "having the glory of God", is it not?

J.T. Just so, so that we should proceed with our chapter. Verse 15 says, "And he that spoke with me had a golden reed as a measure, that he might measure the city, and its gates, and its wall. And the city lies foursquare, and its length is as much as the breadth. And he measured the city with the

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reed -- twelve thousand stadia: the length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, a man's measure, that is, the angel's" -- the angel's measure. So that we might proceed with the matter of the city, and its walls and the like, to get the full thought before us.

W.McK. You were referring in your word the other night to Deity coming down to creature state. Would that be in view in the Lord God Almighty being the temple of the city?

J.T. "And I saw no temple in it; for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, and the Lamb". Now what is your thought about that?

W.McK. I was linking it in my mind with what you remarked the other night, as to how near divine Persons have come to the assembly as a creature, and I wondered if this verse sets that out.

J.T. I think we certainly ought to get some help on that point, as to how God comes down to us so that we might understand what He has in His mind, and that we might speak as to it aright. So verse 22 says, "I saw no temple in it; for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, and the Lamb". That is plain enough, it is God Himself who is the temple; there is no shrine as it were, God Himself being there, a very precious thing to think of, that God Himself is the temple, and the Lamb.

Ques. Do these precious stones in verses 19 and 20 refer to the variety in the work of God in persons?

J.T. I think that is very good. There is great variety in these precious stones; of course the word 'precious' is not to be ignored. They are precious and we take them as they stand. But first we might make a few observations upon the details given as to the city in these verses, beginning with verse 16: "The city lies foursquare, and its length is as much as the breadth. And he measured the city with the

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reed -- twelve thousand stadia: the length and the breadth and height of it are equal" -- that is to say, it is a cube. It is a remarkable fact that the idea of cubic measure is entered into, so that we must see the solidity of the city; it is not square measure only, but cubic measure.

J.T.Jr. Do the measurements bring out the fact of the city's existence? We were speaking about what is abstract, and I suppose the abstract would refer to the thing itself; but the measurements would bring out the fact of its existence so that we should see the thing abstractly; and then perhaps understand a little about it in a concrete sense in our meetings.

J.T. The solidity is a great matter, solidity among the brethren in the care meeting and the like, in what is being done. I think that is the thing to notice.

N.S. Does the reference to a man's measure suggest that men are in view in relation to Jerusalem, that there are to be men in Jerusalem?

J.T. Just so; so the human element is brought into it. The angel is there, the idea of an angel, but the human element is the prominent thought. It is not primarily an angelic thought, it is the human thought.

Rem. God's thought is to have men for Himself.

A.S.B. So that you were saying in regard to "a man in Jerusalem", and men in Jerusalem, that God's thought is not a vacuum but the solidarity of the position.

J.T. Just so; and the city is inhabited -- men shall inhabit it.

A.Macd. In a recent word you gave us you mentioned the word 'thickness' in connection with the wall, that we should be marked by separation, a good thick separation from this world.

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J.T. Quite so, thickness in keeping out the evil. We have full means of doing it.

J.McK. Does the word as to Jerusalem in Isaiah 60:18,19 fit in with that? "But thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. The sun shall be no more thy light by day, neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee; but Jehovah shall be thine everlasting light, and thy God thy glory".

J.T. Beautiful! Showing how the Old Testament can feed us too, added to what we have in the New, as we rightly and spiritually understand it.

S.McC. The Galatians were very fickle, Paul really upbraids them as to it. He has in mind the solidity that you are referring to that belongs to the position; their fickleness would be in contrast to what is solid as we have it here. The word 'establish' fits into that: "Now he that establishes us with you in Christ ... is God" (2 Corinthians 1:21). Establishing would be implied in the idea of solidity.

J.T.Jr. Would not the thought be initially seen in the Acts when the Spirit came in? That is, the twelve are there, the twelve apostles; and then it says "they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers" (Acts 2:42). The thing is there in principle. No one could raise any error when the twelve apostles were present.

J.T. Quite so.

J.W.D. For what purpose does the heavenly city come down? What shall we do in the millennial world?

J.T. I think the heavenly city is over the earth; we shall reign over the earth, not on it. I think we shall be under the divine hand for whatever will be needed in the millennial day, because God will be over it, the hand of God. The Lord will have the earth. When the millennial world is established the

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Lord will be there, and He will have wonderful things to do and to bring out. What do we do now in the assembly? There are things that we do every day in the assembly; every Lord's day we do things that we have not done before. You might say things are just repeated, but they are not just repeated; every Lord's day brings out something new. And I would say the millennial world will bring out freshness, newness, and variety; the assembly will be there to be usable, because it is the greatest family of all and it is usable in the hands of the Lord; it is His body. If it is His body He will work through it, the Lord Himself will be acting through it. I think the saints will be available to the Lord in what it means to be His body. We often say, The Lord is doing so and so, but when we come down to the details, some saint is doing it; so that things are done that way, and that is what I believe will go on in the millennial world; and probably go on eternally, because the Lord will have a body always and do through it what He wishes to do to carry out the behests of love. His body will be there to do that.

A.N.W. The idea emphasised seems to be light shining, so that the nations shall walk in the light of it.

A.S.B. Do the first two verses of Isaiah 60 bear on what you are saying in regard to Israel on the earth? "Arise, shine! for thy light is come, and the glory of Jehovah is risen upon thee. For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the peoples; but Jehovah will arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen on thee".

J.T. That is the millennial day; it is wonderful to have that in mind, that God has His own reserves. There will be a terrible time before that, Jacob's trouble will take place, but still there will come a time of peace; the Prince of Peace will be there and the millennium will be a wonderful time. We are to

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look forward to real joy and satisfaction and victory; that is still ahead of us.

Ques. Is that what Paul means in 1 Corinthians 6:2 when he says, "Do ye not then know that the saints shall judge the world?"

J.T. The saints, just so. We had already that the apostles are to judge the twelve tribes of Israel, but the saints are going to judge the world. There will be a great deal to be done therefore, but it is not only judgment but blessing. The old men sitting on the streets and children playing on the streets, these are things to be noted; they are streets into which the inhabitants are not afraid to let their children go. At the present time the devil is there and we have to keep the children at home; but in the millennium he will not be there; he will be chained for a thousand years, so that the children will not be exposed. They will play on the streets, it says.

C.T. While there is a variety of stones in the foundation of the wall, is it not a suggestive matter that each gate is of one pearl?

J.T. Just so. There are twelve foundations in the wall, a remarkable thing, showing the solidity of it, the certainty of it, so that we can fully lean upon it as it were, rest on it. It is really all very beautiful as showing the divine thought of what is to be brought about in the millennial world; it is like the seventh day, the seventh day in the creation is like the millennial world.

J.J. Where does the apostle Paul appear in this?

J.T. Not at all, he is not mentioned; it is John, John's service; the Lord has reserved John for this. He said to Peter, "If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me" (John 21:22). Paul is not brought into it.

T.U. In connection with your reference as to the Lord Himself operating through the assembly in

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the millennial day, do I understand that the holy city will not be on the earth but hovering over it? And how would the Lord operate through the assembly? By influence?

J.T. Oh, I think it will be as Head; He is Head of His body, the assembly.

T.U. Then if the assembly is not on earth but hovering over it, how would the assembly affect the earth as representing the Lord? By influence or something like that?

J.T. By influence; to use the figure, in the same way as the sun influences things on the earth.

A.D.S. Earth and heaven will be in accord then, will they not?

J.T. Quite so; the heavens will be there, for it is one great idea -- the heavens and the earth. They are not separated from one another; they will be fully in relation to one another.

C.D. It is a matter of shining and light, is it not? "And the nations shall walk by its light".

J.T. Just so. I think we get much in a symbolic sense even in the present creation as regards all these things, but in that day we get exceptions made; there is no need of the sun or of the moon, no need of natural light in view of the glory of the millennium.

J.W.F. Would you say that as a result of the instruction that we have received, the last part of Psalm 122 should be much in our minds, that is, praying for the peace of Jerusalem? It continues, "Peace be within thy bulwarks, prosperity within thy palaces. For my brethren and companions' sakes I will say, Peace be within thee!"

J.T. So that we must not make little of the Old Testament, for "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16). We must not ignore the Old Testament; it is constantly needed among us; but it is not 'the Old

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and the New', but 'the New and the Old' -- we begin with the New. The Spirit of God is here in the assembly; the greatest fact that exists on the earth today or in the heavens is that the Spirit of God is here in the assembly.

A.H.P. Is the thought of the service of God carried forward into the next chapter? It says, "And no curse shall be any more; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him, and they shall see his face; and his name is on their foreheads". The note for the word 'servants' is 'bondmen', but 'serves' is 'latreuo', 'priestly service'. I am raising an inquiry as to whether this thought of divine service is recovered and set right in relation to God and His prime thought in regard to men?

J.T. I thought we should come on to chapter 22; we should at least come to some finish in our minds, and chapter 22 must come into it. But we should not altogether pass by verse 27 of chapter 21: "And nothing common, nor that maketh an abomination and a lie, shall at all enter into it; but those only who are written in the book of life of the Lamb". That is the finish of chapter 21, and then the 22nd begins, "And he shewed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, going out of the throne of God and of the Lamb". We ought to see that the idea of thirst is taken account of, the idea of refreshment. In the great, glorious and literal sense there is the refreshing thought of a river; not just a spring or a well, but a river, and it is said to be a river of water of life. I thought before we finish we should have the liberality and glory of the thing, the blessedness of it in the idea of a river of refreshment. That is going to be a millennial feature, the idea of refreshment from God, that God will refresh His people on the earth; but it will be heavenly as well because it goes out from the throne of God. It says, "And he

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shewed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, going out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of its street, and of the river" -- notice the recurrence of the word 'river' -- "on this side and on that side, the tree of life, producing twelve fruits, in each month yielding its fruit; and the leaves of the tree for healing of the nations". Before we close we should get these thoughts as to the refreshing side of the thing, the body side of the position that God so wonderfully provides for the millennial world, "the world to come", as we properly call it, "the ... world which is to come, of which we speak" (Hebrews 2:5).

D.M.H. In verse 4 it says, "his name is on their foreheads"; so that we shall greatly revere the name of the Lord Jesus, and all other combinations and associations and great names in this world shall be gone for ever.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. I should like to ask whether this is right -- that in chapter 21 the first eight verses bear on eternity, and from verse 9 to verse 4 of chapter 22 it is millennial; and then that verse 5 of chapter 22 is eternal, those are eternal conditions. Is that right?

J.T. Verse 5 reads, "And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign to the ages of ages". Well, I think that is about right. But we should get a fuller thought, if we can, of what glories are brought into this chapter 22, and especially as to this matter of the river and the street of it and the fulness of it; and then the leaves of the tree for the healing of the nations, the liberality of it, the bounty of it. But then as you say, there are the eternal conditions, they are not to be overlooked; of course they are wonderful; eternal conditions are coming into it. But the administrative side is so pronounced in chapter 21 that I think it

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ought to be carried away with us; the administrative side is prominent as if God is stressing the thought of it before He introduces eternal conditions. There is nothing to disturb, everything will be ordered administratively so that there is nothing to disturb or distress; all is well and happy and glorious.

J.W. The word as to the river is "going out of the throne of God", emphasising further what you have said as to the bounty of administration and fulness of blessing.

J.T. All leading up to the very edge of eternal conditions. These glorious things are brought in administratively so that everything is regulated, nothing is left at loose ends; it is all of God, it is what God is. He is going to accomplish these thoughts and set out eternal conditions suitable to His own thoughts and heart.

A.N.W. And the completeness of the 'twelve' thought is seen in the term 'adorned'; "the foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every precious stone".

J.T. Wonderful!

Ques. So the end of the section is Godward, is it not? It is what is Godward here.

J.T. Yes; God is setting up the thing as He would have it. God is God, and God is love, and He will have things worked out according to what He is Himself. God is love, and it is in eternity that we are coming into what God is. God will be there and God is love. I believe that is the way things will finish with us.

C.C.T. So everything is marked with life in this section: the water of life, and the tree of life producing its fruits, one for each month.

J.T. The word 'life' is greatly stressed here; the tree of life, and the river of water of life are specially to be noted. "The river of God is full of water", it says in Psalm 65:9; the river of God.

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But then it is the water of life in the entirety of it; it is clear as crystal, everything is open and clear; and there is no hesitation or fear or stress about it on any side; everything is clear and open "unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do" (Hebrews 4:13). But it is all a question of what is according to God's heart; God is love, everything is to be in accord with that.

A.S.B. Does Peter have that in mind when he speaks of times of refreshing coming from the presence of the Lord, and the restoration of all things? It says, "whom heaven indeed must receive till the times of the restoring of all things" (Acts 3:21).

J.T. And a new heaven and new earth too wherein dwells righteousness, all that must be put into these two chapters.

J.W. So that the lamp and the sun -- these things recede; they would be according to nature and the greatness of God is filling the scene.

J.T. God Himself, just so, God Himself. He is the light and the Lamb is the light. There is no need for mere natural light at all, that is the idea of eternity.

J.W.F. The title "Lord God" in verse 5 is the title that God began with in Genesis; according to the note it is 'Jehovah Elohim'.

J.T. Very good, referring back to the second of Genesis.

A.N.W. I was impressed with your using the term, "God himself". In verse 5 the appellation is Jehovah Elohim; in verse 22 of chapter 21 the appellation is "Lord God Almighty"; but in verse 3 of that chapter, in the eternal state, it is "God himself", "the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God".

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J.T. It is beautiful that we can come back to these terms that begin in the first of Genesis; and we see how Scripture, as it were, regulates itself so that we can understand it. I think it is very beautiful to see that these terms that have already been used in Genesis can be used now profitably. This is the same God as in the first of Genesis.

C.T. At the beginning a river went out of Eden, and now this river comes out here from the throne of God.

J.T. God began with that, God began with a river and He is finishing with it.

D.Macd. There is the tree of life, too, in Genesis.

J.T. Just so, the tree of life.

C.D. So that what is contemplated is a realm sustained in living freshness by the river, and having in it the tree of life. Would that suggest the Holy Spirit and Christ personally?

J.T. The river -- the fulness of the Spirit I think it is. God has revived that to us and I believe we might see it here, that the river really refers to the Spirit Himself, the fulness of it.

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THE MINISTRY OF ELISHA IN ITS PRACTICAL VALUE (1)

1 Kings 19:19 - 21; 2 Kings 2:9 - 22

J.T. It is well to keep in mind in these public meetings that the ministry is cumulative, that is, all that proceeds from God takes form in others, maybe two, three or four being involved in it; and the point is that what next proceeds from God should be in accord in those involved with what has gone before. So these two prophets are taken up to show how everything proceeds from God; how the instrumentalities He may use are to be in accord with Himself in the sense of unity. There is to be unity and order in what a servant does. There has been encouragement in relation to the word in Great Britain recently, in the gospel of Matthew being divided into two parts; the first part being taken up in the meetings in Edinburgh, and the second part in London; the same subject divided into two parts. And God blessed the matter. So now we have these two servants, two great prophets. The first is Elijah and he has great distinction in the New Testament, and has been referred to often; and then Elisha, a counterpart, a continuation of Elijah, because it is so. Elijah is the more drastic and severe but Elisha is the more gracious, which is a great matter, that we should have a gracious minister and that we should take part in grace ourselves, every one of us, that we should have part in what is gracious. "The God of all grace" (1 Peter 5:10) is one title of God, and then He is the God of glory as well; but we are dealing now with grace. So the thought is to continue with Elisha and to see how God had ordered Elijah to select him, to select Elisha the prophet instead of himself; that is to say, Elijah has in this first passage given way to God and given way to

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another to take his place. Sometimes we may be displaced, those of us who are serving, but at the same time we are to accept in grace what is done; we are not to be jealous or envious of one another, but to do everything in humility and grace. So that Elijah is directed of God to choose Elisha to be prophet in his stead, and we can see there is unity in the affections of the two prophets, there is no rivalry whatever. This is a great point for the brethren to imbibe in our hearts and minds, that we are not to be disunited, but that there might be love amongst ourselves. God knows how to order these things, and He selects these two men and uses one of them to select and to anoint the other. In fact we are to get the idea that the anointing is connected with them. We are said to be anointed too; whatever we are as christians is in the power of the anointing or else it is nothing. It is nothing at all if not in the power of the anointing. We may think it is and assume to be something, but it is nothing unless in the power of the anointing.

S.McC. Does the numeral twelve mentioned in the passage amplify the thoughts of unity and love that you are referring to?

J.T. A very good number; God selected it Himself because evidently it suits Him to effect certain things through it. Yet God may take away one of us, as the apostles had one taken away from them; and yet they continued in the power of the anointing.

S.McC. So that the number twelve is the most divisible of all numbers, and love enters into it in a particular way.

J.T. Another number of equal importance is the number seven. It is a spiritual number, and carries spiritual thoughts. We have been around the circuit recently with these special meetings; we began at Detroit and we were recently at Chicago,

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and now we are here in Toronto; presently we expect to be in Council Bluffs. As we move from place to place God is carrying on in the ministry with these numbers; He has taken up what means He will to express His thoughts. Divine Persons have chosen the number three for Themselves, and it is important to notice that. In Matthew 28:19 we have "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". They are all equal; we know that, but at the same time They have taken up places in the economy that They have ordained, which involves that two have taken relatively lower positions. Each has taken a place by Himself. It is wonderful that divine Persons should take this attitude!

S.McC. Would you say that in the economy these great thoughts of unity and love are set out in divine Persons?

J.T. Just so, the Godhead is involved; but it is remarkable that there are three divine Persons. Of course we speak of Them with great reverence, as we ought to. There are three of Them, They have made this choice Themselves, this arrangement Themselves, because clearly divine Persons are equal. So They have come into time, and we see how Their operations in time are on the principle of these numbers.

C.H.H. Would the apostle Paul in Acts 26 have in mind this calculating in love when he says in verse 7, "to which our whole twelve tribes serving incessantly day and night hope to arrive"? Was that the calculation of love?

J.T. Just so, the whole twelve tribes; that is good. The word 'whole' means they were all united. So far as we know the apostles were never separated, excepting Judas, a matter which was ordained; the defection of Judas was foretold. But at the same time that defection was perfectly mended. The idea of mending is a great one in Scripture; if we are not

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mended, then we had better see to it that we become so; because there is a way of mending things, and they may become better than they were before in wholeness.

R.W.S. It says the Lord "appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve", not to the eleven, as if the matter were mended.

J.T. You should say a little more about it.

R.W.S. I thought the mending was actually after He appeared to the apostles, that in the scripture quoted Matthias had not yet been selected; yet it does not say it was to the eleven He appeared, but to the twelve, as if He regarded them as complete. Subsequently they cast lots, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven.

F.K.C. Why is it said that Elisha was with the twelfth yoke of oxen?

J.T. I think he was there in heart. The place a man takes is very often God's way of showing what a man is. Here Elisha shows that he is lowly in heart; he did not put himself in the front; he did not choose a place to make himself great. He was with the twelfth yoke, so that there were eleven before him; but I would say he was morally the greatest because he was with the twelfth. He was with the divine number with which God was operating, and he is ready to be in that. Elijah helps him to get into it. Elijah had been in it but Elijah was displaced or replaced by Elisha, and Elisha has the same lowly spirit, qualifying him to take the place of Elijah. It is lowliness that counts, "meek and lowly in heart", the Lord says.

W.L. Would you say it called for discernment on the part of Elijah to let the whole eleven go by and then pick the twelfth?

J.T. But we cannot say he is letting them go by, because there was perfect arrangement; things were not left open, there is always arrangement in the

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ways of God. No doubt they are all needed and put in their places. They are actually working, ploughing, "and he with the twelfth".

J.W.F. Would you say that very often circumstances come up to break in upon God's thought, that is to break in on the number twelve, but still God makes it up? That is, Judas' failure broke in on the twelve apostles and Matthias had to be brought in; and the two sons of Joseph had to be brought in to make up the twelve in Israel's number. Still God intervenes and carries the matter through, does He not?

J.T. He does, so that the whole divine thought is carried through in spite of human weakness; God Himself does it.

A.R. What started at Pentecost was perfect, was it not? I was wondering if that is what you had in mind in carrying forward the idea of the assembly in our day, so that it is not a remnant at all, but we should keep in mind what is perfect.

J.T. The assembly is held as complete. The word 'assembly' is used at the beginning of Acts. In Revelation the Lord writes to the seven assemblies; He selects them and He writes a letter to each of them, and then there is in addition what the Spirit says to them. But what the Spirit says goes right down through the dispensation; and His speaking is going on today. I would hope that this meeting today in Toronto is part of it, part of what the Spirit is saying to the assemblies, not what the Lord is writing to them but what the Spirit is saying to them, to the assemblies.

A.R. So do you think the Lord had in mind what is perfect when He said to Philadelphia, "I ... will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world"?

J.T. Just so, it is the assembly; I mean each one of the assemblies. Although there are seven of

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them, each one in itself represents the whole, so that the divine ways are in that sense continued; they are linked together and everything is in perfect order.

A.H. Do you suggest that this ability to plough with twelve yoke of oxen applies peculiarly to the local position?

J.T. I suppose it would; the idea would be there, and Elisha was with the twelfth; that is to say the lowly man was there with the twelfth, where he was needed.

A.H. Have you any thought why it is ploughing and not reaping?

J.T. Well, it is the beginning of things. Ploughing is the beginning; in order to have a crop you must plough.

A.H. Does it suggest going deep in exercise?

J.T. Just so.

W.W.M. Would you say he is commended for being with the twelfth? In Matthew 20 when the Lord started to pay off the labourers, those that came first thought they should have got more than the twelfth, as you might say; but the twelve are all equal.

J.T. Just so; there is perfect unity here; they are working together. Elisha is brought in as following on Elijah and he is fit for the place. So it goes on to say, "And Elijah went over to him, and cast his mantle on him. And he left the oxen" -- that is to say, that was past history -- "be left the oxen, and ran after Elijah, and said, Let me, I pray thee, kiss my father and my mother, and I will follow thee". Now that is the next thing we have to consider, this matter of kissing the father and the mother; that is, with Elisha the claims of nature are the central matter; they are being fully allowed. We have to see if that is as it should be; that is to say he is putting the testimony last, so that he has to be

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adjusted. We have already seen that it will not do to make the oxen first, they must be left for the sake of the testimony because Elijah has blessed him in view of the testimony, and he must follow Elijah. It is what is of God we must follow. We cannot think of our business or whatever it may be, that has to be left for the sake of the testimony if we are to qualify.

S.McC. What you are saying now as to what is natural is important. At Chicago you were drawing our attention to the woman in chapter 17 as operating on the lines of nature, but the man of God takes the child from her bosom. We have to learn to leave that side of things.

J.T. Very good, the same thing would be here; Elisha says, "let me ... kiss my father and my mother", that is, he makes a provision, whereas God does not admit of any provision. God is absolute in His demands, He is absolute, and the absoluteness is love; love is behind all the absoluteness in God.

A.H. Does the blessing of Levi in Deuteronomy 33 bear on this at all? It says in verses 8 and 9, "And of Levi he said, thy Thummim and thy Urim are for thy godly one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah; who said to his father and to his mother, I see him not, and he acknowledged not his brethren, and knew not his own children".

J.T. Very good, that is in exact correspondence. The ploughing here just represents ordinary business matters; but the idea of manhood is in Elisha; he is the one that serves, and it says that Elijah cast his mantle on him. He did not cast his mantle on any of the oxen, but just on him. Then Elisha raises the question about his father and his mother, and he is rebuked about it; so that we have to learn to disallow nature and oxen, that is business, and all that goes with it for the sake of the testimony of God.

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A.R. It says of James and John in Mark that He called them and they left everything. That apparently marked the apostles at the beginning, that they straightway left everything.

J.T. That shows they were ready for it.

A.N.W. Are the terms of our service intended to be very simple? That is, he arose and went after Elijah and ministered to him.

J.T. That is the next thing. He really left his father and mother, but he was ordered to do that; before he ministers to Elijah he left his father and mother. The Lord did that and we have to leave the natural -- that is a principle with God. He will look after them. The passage in 2 Timothy 2:4 - 6 emphasises the same truth as to the things that may hinder.

A.R. It does not say you are to leave your wife.

J.T. No, you cannot do that; but, you can leave your father and mother and you can leave the oxen and your business; but you cannot leave your wife, or the brethren either. I do not know whether the brethren go with that because we may have to challenge these things; we are dealing with the facts of Scripture and we must be accurate.

E.A.L. "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife" (Genesis 2:24).

S.McC. One of the most baneful things in the testimony is the power and influence of what is natural in obstructing our judgment and hindering us.

J.T. That is so. You have had a lot to do with these things where you are, but on industrial lines; and there are similar things in other countries. There was a difficulty recently overseas, where a brother refused to join the union and was discharged. Of course you are in similar circumstances in Detroit in that respect. Is God helping?

S.McC. He certainly is. I think what you have said as to the demands of God being absolute would

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help all of us to realise that the testimony must come first.

A.R. A young brother here recently lost his job because of the union.

J.T. That enters into what we are speaking about, and of course it calls out the sympathies of the brethren. This thing has been current amongst us for at least fifty years, this matter of unionism; and the brethren have been set against it and have shown their faithfulness to the truth in many of our cities. On the other hand, alas! certain have not been faithful; they have been concerned just to hold their jobs and have lost their place amongst the brethren, their real place amongst the brethren.

E.A.L. You once said regarding this matter of trade unionism, if I recall rightly, that in Revelation, trade unionism is shown up as definitely bearing the mark of the beast; and that if any one would justify his stay in the union after that was pointed out to him, it would point to the fact that he probably did not have the Spirit.

J.T. I would say that; it is very possible that any person who would stay in a trade union and disregard the truth has not the Spirit.

J.M. In the union matter now current in New York, and the question of having fellowship in relation to employing a lawyer, some brethren have difficulty as to putting it down as assembly giving. Would you say a word as to that?

J.T. That situation is the same as if you do not know the way from here to Detroit, and you ask a man to show you, and he does; that is the way I would say it applies in New York. These brethren have been discharged because of unionism and they have just employed a man who can tell them what to do. That is all.

J.M. It seems quite clear to me, but there is a question in some of the brethren's minds.

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J.T. There is a good deal of legal feeling in these matters. We have just employed a man to tell us what to do, that is all; we ask him and pay him. The brethren should not question that because those discharged are doing what they can in regard to the testimony, and we want to be right in the method of approach to the government. I do not see anything in the matter at all.

S.McC. What was in our brother's mind was as to charging the assembly, and the assembly's place in having fellowship with the expenses. But cannot the assembly be charged in regard to any issue that involves the truth? The assembly is the pillar and base of the truth.

J.T. Quite so. Why should not the assembly be charged in such a case? We should be free to pay and thankful to do so.

F.W. The question raised is in regard to assembly giving in support of this lawyer, and the legal proceedings.

J.T. But the thing has to be done you see; it refers to the saints, it refers to the testing they are going through. Why should not the assembly do it? It is their matter to do it, our privilege to do it. We are prone to be very legal in these matters. The question is, Are we instructed as to how to act? And if any one can instruct us, let him do it.

E.A.L. It should be quite clear that the spirit of trade unionism and of communism and all that sort of thing is apostate in character.

J.T. Quite so; it is the growing feature of apostasy of modern times.

E.A.L. I am afraid a great many of the brethren do not see that situation, that it is entirely apostate; the social trend is entirely apostate in character.

J.T. That is true. But let us proceed with our scripture. It says in verse 20, "And he said to him, Go back again; for what have I done to thee?"

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What Elijah had done was to cast his mantle upon him. It goes on, "And he returned back from him, and took the yoke of oxen, and killed them" -- notice that, he killed the yoke of oxen; they are his property and he is quite right to use that property for a good purpose -- "he ... killed them, and boiled their flesh with the implements of the oxen, and gave to the people, and they ate. And he arose and went after Elijah, and ministered to him". Now all is clear; and it ought to be instructive to every one of us as to what we should do in similar tests. Elisha is corrected; instead of going back to his father and mother, it says he turned. Elijah said, "Go back again"; he is challenging the spiritual discernment of Elisha and we see that Elisha came to the right viewpoint. The whole position is now clear, the testimony of God is clear, and the work of God is going on properly. Elisha is serving Elijah; instead of going back and kissing his father and mother, he is serving Elijah. I think it is wonderful to notice all these things. He is serving Elijah and the oxen and the ploughing instruments are just material that can be left. They do not belong to the testimony at all; they can be left. The point is Elijah and Elisha; Elisha is following Elijah and ministering to him.

F.K.C. What is involved in ministering to Elijah?

J.T. Well, ministering is serving the Lord; if Elijah needs anything in a material sense Elisha would give it to him, if he has it to give.

F.K.C. Do you think that Luke ministered in that way, as being called into the service at Troas? The apostle speaks of him as "Luke, the beloved physician" (Colossians 4:14). He seems to be always near to Paul and I wondered whether he ministered on that line? I was thinking of the need of those who minister many a time, the need for support and encouragement.

J.T. Whatever it be, if they need anything, give it to them. That is what I think. That is to say

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Elisha would do anything that Elijah might need. He poured water on the hands of Elijah, he did that to refresh him; Elijah would be refreshed by that. But now we might come to our second scripture beginning with verse 9 of 2 Kings 2, "And it came to pass when they had gone over, that Elijah said to Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I am taken away from thee". Notice that, dear brethren, Elijah is going to be taken up and he knows it; and so are we all going to be taken up, and we know it, or at least we should know it. Elisha's answer is to ask for a double portion of Elijah's spirit, but he says to him, "Thou hast asked a hard thing". He is asking a hard thing from Elijah in wanting to get a double portion of his spirit, but it was a good thing and a right thing; he is now doing what is right. So Elijah says, "If thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so to thee; but if not, it shall not be so". I think what is for the brethren in all this is to enquire whether we see things, whether we see what is current in a spiritual way. Many stay at home and have no interest in what is happening; they do not see the things that are happening. The word to Elisha is, "If thou see me ... it shall be so". So it is that if we are not present when things are happening we are going to lose. We might as well accept it that we are going to lose.

B.P. As Thomas did in John 20; he missed the first appearing of the Lord, but he got the second appearing.

J.T. Quite so, I hope all hear that. So Elisha says, "I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me"; that is a double portion of the prophet's spirit. That is to say, we have the Spirit, and we might say we have a firstborn's portion; the assembly has the Spirit of God in that special way. Each of us in the assembly has the Spirit in

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a full way, whereas those in a coming day will not have the Spirit as we have Him. We have to understand that the Spirit will not be so freely given in their day as in our day; we are in the day of the free gift of the Holy Spirit. John's gospel is full of it, that the Spirit is given freely to us now; John 7 tells us that. The question now is whether we have arrived at it, and whether we are present at the meetings so that we can see what is happening. So Elijah says, "Thou hast asked a hard thing". Then it says they talked, notice that; the two prophets talked together; and then behold, Elijah is gone and Elisha is here! But he saw Elijah go, and he cried, "My father, my father!" and then he takes up Elijah's mantle. He takes hold of his own garments and rends them; his whole attitude is changed, according to verses 13 and 14 he is now in entire accord with Elijah. He has got Elijah's garment and he has the same power as Elijah. That is what we have; the whole power of God is in the assembly, and we want to be in it and of it, not to be left out of it.

A.H. Is this an advance on getting free from business and natural links? He is now prepared to dispense with his own garment.

J.T. That is the suggestion, I am sure; we have to let everything go for the sake of the testimony.

S.McC. We cannot over-emphasise the fact that the power is here. In the early days among us some brother was saying that everything is at the right hand of God; but it was stressed that the Spirit of God is here.

J.T. That is good; there is not only power at the right hand of God, it is down here too. So that before the Lord Jesus went up into heaven He said, "If I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you" (John 16:7); but He did go up, and the Spirit came to us. The Lord said the Father would send Him to us

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and the point we now have to get is that the Spirit is here. Christ is at the right hand of God, but the Spirit is here, sent by Christ, and we want to use the Spirit, to make use of Him, so that there is evidence of God's holy will being done. That is what Elisha wanted, and Elijah said, You will get it if you see me taken up. If we attend the meetings and are with the brethren, things will be ready for us, available for us. But if we are absent -- and that is our own business -- it is pretty certain we shall not get things.

Ques. You were referring a moment ago to the power that marked Elisha. Would there be anything, do you think, in the moral journey that preceded Elijah's rapture, the journey from Gilgal to Bethel, and then to Jericho and on to the Jordan, as laying the basis in his soul for the Spirit to be free to work?

J.T. I thoroughly go with that.

A.B. He says here, "My father, my father!" a very positive statement of relationship, of the spiritual link, not the natural.

J.T. Quite so, a beautiful word denoting fatherly, family relations; a beautiful illustration of family relations. Is that on your mind?

A.B. Yes, indeed. And, going back to the union matter again, I have been impressed with what you have been saying, because I can see the tendency with many of us is to connive with the union in regard to a way out. But I feel impressed by what has been said in regard to the union being part of the apostasy, and therefore we should have no dealings with them whatever. If we are employees our relationship lies with the employer.

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. You stressed in your opening remarks the cumulative aspect of the ministry in what is said and done. I was thinking of the importance of the doing as well as the saying in Elisha's history.

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J.T. Quite so; and in the next incident (verses 15 - 18) we see that Elisha missed the point. He did well up to this moment but he missed the point in accepting what these fifty men said. He is swayed by them but what they said was not right; he knew it was not right, but he did what they said. He was wrong in that. These are the points in which we have to learn; we are not to give way even if the brethren are all saying certain things that may be wrong. It is a question of being right. There is one thing we have to follow: that is righteousness. That is the one great thing we are to follow. Giving way to the brethren because there are fifty of them is not right; we want to be sure that what the fifty are doing is quite right. It may be wrong. Elisha knew it was wrong; he said afterward, "Did I not say to you, Go not?" But then he should not have allowed them to go. The whole thing is to stand by the truth, and not to give way even though fifty persons are saying something different.

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THE MINISTRY OF ELISHA IN ITS PRACTICAL VALUE (2)

2 Kings 3:9 - 27; 2 Kings 4:1 - 7

J.T. The book of Kings affords remarkable material for ministry, that the saints might be instructed at a time like this when we are gathered together for the express purpose of learning; not simply to meet one another, but for learning and acquiring wisdom. The word for us is, "Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things" (2 Timothy 2:7); that is to say that we are to get instruction and understanding from the Lord in all things. So it is thought that under God these two prophets afford this material, first Elijah, and then Elisha; the latter prophet, as we said before, affording instruction as to grace, suggesting that we should get on well with one another and live in the element of grace, not simply of love but of grace, having the ability to show grace, to be patient and to consider for one another. It will be seen how prominently Elisha is brought into these scriptures read, and of course it is in mind to comment on the truth presented to us through him. We do not need to consult all that is current in the world, but to confine ourselves to the facts of Scripture, facts which build us up in our most holy faith.

A.R. May I ask a question as to the scripture referred to this morning in relation to the healing of the waters, 2 Kings 2:20 - 22?

J.T. You have in mind I suppose the idea of the new cruse, "Bring me a new cruse, and put salt in it". I suppose the idea is a certain freshness with us; we are not wearied or occupied with mere historic things, matters that are of little importance to the christian, but we are new and fresh. It is as if we come down from heaven. We belong to heaven, as it says in Ephesians, we are raised up together, and

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made to "sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus". So we regard each other in this light, as being in a sense new. Therefore we have the new man, a term which is often commented on but is not noticed enough by us: "the new man ... created in truthful righteousness and holiness".

S.McC. The element of grace as we are taking account of it in Elisha brings into operation what there is among the saints; it not only gives the solution, but brings into operation and activity whatever there may be among the saints. So Elisha says, "Bring me a new cruse". I thought that in contrast to all that is around us, where much in the clerical system is built up on one man, in the assembly everything is made of what is there, what there is among the saints.

J.T. And each one has a consciousness that he is of some importance in the mind of heaven; that is to be taken account of, so that there is a dignity and greatness amongst us in that sense. Although of course we are not to think this of ourselves in any natural way, but to think of what we are as raised up together to sit down together in the heavenlies. The gospel of John tells us about the new birth -- that we are born anew -- which is the beginning of things; but there is much more to add to that. We are to be raised up together and to be made to sit down together in the heavenlies; so that, as it were, we come down to earth again to do our duty here and to serve God here according to His will, according to the authority and dignity that He has put upon us. We are not to be occupied unduly with ourselves, but still we have a dignity in the fact that we are born again and the Spirit of God indwells us. Therefore we are brought into the assembly, the greatest family in the whole universe; we are brought into that and have the power to enter heaven in a spiritual sense, and then to come down again; and

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then finally to go up again. We have that in Scripture, the idea of going up again, so that we go up finally. But we are down here now, and left down here to represent the heavenly-mindedness that belongs to the assembly.

A.B. According to Ephesians 2:6,7, this elevation is in view of the present, that is to say it is going on now; we are being constituted fit to come out and convey the mind of God now according to His purpose.

R.W.S. In Elisha's time there are things such as famine, war and death. Does that afford occasion for praying, and for heavenly-mindedness to come out?

J.T. Just so. Then do you in your mind connect what you have said now with what was remarked previously as to the new man? Do you want us to understand that you connect it with what we have already had, so as to make it a one-piece matter?

R.W.S. Yes, I had that in mind; so that the mixed conditions in which we are, where these adverse things are happening, are to bring out the features of the new man, to bring out the heavenly-mindedness of the assembly.

J.W.F. Would the pot of oil in chapter 4, along with the new cruse referring to what there is amongst the saints, as previously remarked, represent the two elements that are needful?

J.T. The new cruse would represent something that is new, it is a vessel of a certain kind. The question therefore is what kind of vessel is suggested. I suppose all these ideas of vessels must have in mind the persons who form the assembly; what there is in the sense of newness, and then of course what the vessel can be used for, what it is suitable for.

J.W.F. The vessel in chapter 4 is evidently filled with oil; it speaks of "a pot of oil".

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J.T. Just so; we had better quote the scripture to help the mind. Each one of us has a mind and our minds need to be aided as much as possible that we may get the facts correctly. Verse 20 of chapter 2 speaks not only of the vessel itself, but of what is in it. The saints must be in mind in the idea of salt, because, we have the word in the New Testament, "Have salt in yourselves" (Mark 9:50); and that is the idea of the cruse, it has salt in it. It is a preservative idea.

A.R. It is a question of healing power, is it not? It has virtue, for it says the waters were healed: "I have healed these waters". As to matters of local difficulty we should not be left in doubt; they can always be solved by having healing power in our localities.

J.T. "Have salt in yourselves". It is not what God does for you, not what the brethren may do for you, and not what the ministry may do for you; but what you have in yourself. You have the ability in yourself. "Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another".

W.M. "Ye are the salt of the earth" (Matthew 5:13), is what the Lord said when speaking to His own.

J.T. The Lord has constituted us that; that is, divine operations have effected that. It is what you are in that passage -- that is another matter; but then we are to have it as well.

S.McC. At Chicago you greatly helped us on the value of oral ministry, spoken ministry. That seems to be stressed in chapter 2:22: "according to the saying of Elisha which he spoke". It is not the writing but the saying.

J.T. Showing that the Spirit of God would say that His servant is honoured; his word is coming true. He has been honoured in that sense. When you think of a brother you might say of him that he serves well, he says good things: but the question

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is whether they come true; whether they are real and whether the Spirit of God is in them.

S.McC. Is it not important too that in Elisha's service as it comes out here the unity of the ministry appears? Chapter 3:11 shows the unity of the ministry.

J.T. Quite so; the brother in question has acquired a reputation. Now he is not only a ploughman, he has acquired a reputation. So that one says, "Here is Elisha ... who poured water on the hands of Elijah"; and then the king of Israel says, "The word of Jehovah is with him". That is the reputation he has got. So you see the importance of it that when their names are mentioned brethren should have reputations, so that it can be said, He has done so and so. And when the king of Israel says, "The word of Jehovah is with him", that is evidently not only Elisha's own composition, but the word of Jehovah Himself. He has that reputation.

E.A.L. Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask what I shall do for thee". Would that stress the present value of the prophet?

J.T. Quite so. Elijah is conscious himself that he can do something for the people; he is conscious of it because he says to Elisha, "Ask what I shall do for thee". That is to say there are persons amongst us today who can do something, and we ought to know it.

F.K.C. As to your remark about what a brother says coming to pass, it says of Agabus in Acts 11:28 that he "signified by the Spirit" what was to come to pass; and then he speaks again in Acts 21:11, regarding Paul, and says, "Thus saith the Holy Spirit". He binds his own hands and feet, he enacts the thing.

J.T. Very good; he enacts the thing; he sets it out in principle before the eyes of others. It is a question of what power there is actually amongst us,

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and that it might be known. We should become conversant with these facts and occurrences that are being mentioned, and with the people involved and their names, and see that God is with them.

H.B. In 2 Corinthians 1 Paul speaks about the preaching of the Son of God "by me and Silvanus and Timotheus"; and then it says that "in him is the yea". Is there not a unity in the ministry by known persons? And then the positiveness seen in the thought of "in him is the yea".

J.T. "In him is the yea, and in him the amen, for glory to God by us". Not glory to God by Christ, but by us. It is what the saints can do, what God is using the saints for. The point would be therefore that we are all to be ready to do things, to do profitable things; and this is to be known, that we may acquire a reputation for clothing and enriching the saints. God would have them enriched, as it says, "this thy so great a people" (1 Kings 3:9); not that we are assuming to be great, but the word is "thy so great a people". God has made us great, if we are great at all.

S.McC. And is this the kind of thing that is needed to meet unholy combinations such as are now before us in the portion read? We have the king of Israel, the king of Judah, and the king of Edom; and the one that meets it is this effective person that you refer to.

J.T. Just so. Yet God is going to bless this combination, in spite of its being a combination. God is going to use it. We read, "there was no water for the army" -- there was a real need -- "and for the cattle that followed them. And the king of Israel said, Alas! that Jehovah has called these three kings together, to give them into the hand of Moab! And Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of Jehovah that we may inquire of Jehovah by him? And one of the king of Israel's servants

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answered and said, Here is Elisha the son of Shaphat, who poured water on the hands of Elijah. And Jehoshaphat said, The word of Jehovah is with him. And the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went down to him". Elisha has become known, and it is profitable if we can do anything good that it should be known. And so the word of Jehoshaphat is, "The word of Jehovah is with him". The king of Judah is not in good company, although God is helping him; he is not in good company, for Elisha says to the king of Israel, I would not look toward you were it not that the king of Judah is with you. The king of Judah therefore is the saving element; that is another thing. All these details are so important, but then the point is whether we are seeking to gain the meaning of them for mutual profit? Elisha can discern where the king of Israel is and he is faithful as to him; but he is also discerning the king of Judah as to certain matters with him. We are to know each other, and to regard each other accordingly.

F.K.C. Why does Elisha say what he does to the king of Israel? Is it because of his associations with Jezebel?

J.T. Well, there was a bad condition there and Jezebel is in it. The house of Ahab was corrupted.

F.K.C. The principle of Roman Catholicism is really there in Jezebel the wicked woman.

J.T. Just so.

R.W.S. As to the word in verse 14, "As Jehovah of hosts liveth, before whom I stand", Elisha was thinking, not of the three kings, but of Jehovah of hosts. However great the hosts might be, Elisha was standing before Him.

J.T. Jehovah of hosts; that of course is a question of divine Persons, a subject that God has greatly enlarged on lately. Jehovah of hosts is a term mentioned constantly in the Scriptures.

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R.W.S. You spoke of the saving feature in the position. We are never in a position where there is not some saving feature if we stand in the presence of such a Person as Jehovah of hosts; "before whom I stand", Elisha says.

J.T. So you see what the believer can count on in view of such circumstances as these; he can count on "Jehovah of hosts". Who knows how many hosts there may be? We might say, There are so many in such and such a meeting; we are able to reckon the meeting, the size of it, and so forth; but when we come to Jehovah of hosts, how many are there in the hosts? It is marvellous! And then we can think that Jehovah of hosts is on our side, God is on our side; He has got hosts and we can count on them, too.

W.W.M. Would you say a word on, "now fetch me a minstrel"?

J.T. I think that is in the state of the brethren; the idea of the minstrel is music, and it suggests the happy conditions that all these meetings should have. Elisha said he could only speak with the help of a minstrel, that is, a happy condition amongst the saints. The man has power to do things because of it.

W.W.M. So there is an atmosphere created among the saints together whereby prophetic ministry can come out?

J.T. Just so, that is the idea. One can look around at the number of meetings in this country, and in others, and see what minstrelsy, what music there may be. So that we are going to get some improvement in our hymn book; that is to bring in hymns to the Spirit of God Himself. Hymns to the Father we have, but none to the Spirit; but we are going to have them; and that is the idea of the minstrel, happy conditions among the saints, so that we sit down together and before we do anything else

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we sing a hymn together. That is the minstrel. We never start before singing a hymn. What do you say to that?

W.W.M. I fully go with that. I have illustrated it to my own mind in a family reading in the home, you want conditions so that the reading means something. It is not merely reading a few verses of Scripture, but we have a sense of what we are doing and the atmosphere is suitable for it. Is that right?

J.T. Just so, that is what I believe exactly. We have the minstrel. Therefore God is going to help us I believe to get hymns to the Spirit.

J.H.Jr. Why do we not sing before the care meeting?

J.T. I do not see why we should not. There is a good reason why we should, to bring in happy conditions. We very often need them before a care meeting.

J.H. I wondered whether the Lord would not help us in our care meetings to be happier together in the working out of things if we were liberated by bringing in this feature?

J.T. Well, I am going to propose it in New York when I go back; we have never had it there.

A.H. "Let them ... praise him in the session of the elders" (Psalm 107:32). Would that support a hymn in the care meeting? In 2 Chronicles 20:22 singing was the great feature of the day.

J.T. Very good. That is a passage I have often thought of, how the song led on to victory, the song of the Lord.

A.B. In the days of recovery in Nehemiah, there was a certain number of singing men and singing women; and later we have two choirs in relation to the wall of the city.

J.T. Excellent! We want all the good we can get out of the scriptures that are being quoted. That in Nehemiah is a very triumphant note. I was just

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contrasting in my mind what the world has, Washington or London, for instance -- not that one would say a word against them -- but what the world has and what the christian has, what we have in the sense of song, for instance. There is nothing to compare with what there is in the assembly; it is the vessel for all these things, the songs, and so forth, things that the world has not got.

H.B. It says in Psalm 68 that "The singers went before"; so that there is a lead given by the singers in matters.

J.T. Just so; read the passage, please.

H.B. "They have seen thy goings, O God ... The singers went before, the players on stringed instruments after, in the midst of maidens playing on tabrets" (Psalm 68:24,25).

J.T. "Thy goings", note that.

Rem. We used to sing in our care meetings in Tasmania, but we have had it said that it is not the time to sing as we have not the sisters present in care meetings.

J.T. The singing is quite in order as I said.

R.W.S. Would it require certain hymns in the new book for the care meeting? We have one that speaks of 'Every interest precious to thee, finding in our hearts a place'; (Hymn 305) that might be suitable.

J.T. The question now is, seeing the Lord has brought it up in this way, whether the term 'care meeting' is found in Scripture. I do not think it is. We have based it on Acts 15, I think. Do you not think the word 'assembly' in verse 4 of that chapter indicates there might be sisters there? In verse 22 it says, "with the whole assembly"; that is the thing. The more I think of it and the way it is mentioned, the more we can conclude that there must have been sisters there. The whole assembly must include sisters.

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R.W.S. Verse 6 says, "the apostles and the elders were gathered together"; that would not include sisters.

J.T. No, it would not, but as you go on things become enlarged. We should read the whole chapter to get the full bearing of it, especially from verse 22. I would venture to suggest to the brethren that these facts indicate that sisters were present in that great gathering related in Acts 15. I fully believe that that is the fact. I believe the Scriptures would show that the Spirit of God was there, and the Spirit of God is mentioned as having part in the thing; so that the sisters must have had their part in it too, to bring out the whole thought.

J.H.J. We have been encouraged in this city to speak of certain matters with the sisters present, such as what scripture we should take up following the completion of a book, and other like matters; but what you are suggesting now is that perhaps we should consider the sisters more widely in this matter of care?

J.T. I would go with that very much, because the sisters should be brought into it; you cannot have the assembly really without them, not fully without them. Therefore they should be there, but there are certain restrictions as to them which we ought to recognise.

R.W.S. Might not a condition arise when it might be well for a sister who has testimony to be at the care meeting and bring it forward?

J.T. Well, if there is an actual discipline meeting, the sisters must be there; and they are there before any action of discipline takes place. Does that answer your enquiry?

R.W.S. Yes, but more than that, I was thinking that if a sister had knowledge of a certain matter that the brethren in care needed to know, there would be nothing improper in the sister coming to

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the meeting for care and telling the brothers what she knew, would there?

J.T. Quite so. Philip had four daughters who prophesied; they would surely have had a voice in any matter that would be current in their local meeting. They prophesied, they were godly women clearly.

Jas.P. Does not the matter of the apostles and elders being together in verse 6 immediately merge into the thought of the whole assembly, there being no lapse of time between the brothers being together and all the saints?

J.T. Just so, and that is what has forcibly come before me today. I think we might well consider it and the Lord would help us, because there is a real weakness on that point I think.

S.McC. I would like a little more help as to the difference in your mind between the deliberative side and the executive side. Are you speaking of the sisters in relation to the executive side only, or are you bringing them into the deliberative side too?

J.T. I do not think we should exclude them because if they have information why should not they give it? The Spirit of God is said to be there in verse 28 of this chapter we are dealing with, and why should they be excluded, either in what is deliberative or in what is executive?

S.McC. We are on the lines of enquiry now, and something has come up that whets that enquiry. We have always understood as to the departments of this chapter that there is a deliberative side (verse 6), "the apostles and the elders"; and an administrative side, and that when it comes to the administrative side the sisters come into it as being of the assembly.

J.T. In Romans 16 the first mention is of a sister; there are thirty salutations and the first one saluted is a woman, Phoebe. I think it is significant

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that she is there. There are many other sisters mentioned in the same chapter.

S.McC. Then on what ground up to now have the sisters been excluded from the meeting for care?

J.T. I just wonder myself. Of course I do not know the situation at the revival of the truth some hundred and twenty years ago; I was not there. But last year, as you know, it was suggested at Bristol that the sisters should be present at these special meetings, and we have fully accepted the truth of that in England and here.

S.McC. I remember too that reference was made to Quemerford and the meetings that were held there years ago; the sisters were there right through, they did not have brothers' meetings. The sisters were there together with the brothers.

J.T. That is true; I attended those meetings and I know that was true. I do not know why matters have taken their present course and why sisters have been so rigidly kept out of certain things. I do not know but I think perhaps we ought to revise things a little.

S.McC. You could hardly think of a woman like Deborah as not helping the brethren in matters of judgment, could you?

J.T. Just so, Deborah would certainly have contributed.

A.A.T. This year in London you referred to the fact that sisters have a great place in these meetings.

J.T. For a long time it has been in mind that there should be something in the way of adjustment regarding sisters being shut out under certain conditions.

F.K.C. Is there not evidence that there were certain sisters with whom Mr. Darby consulted a good deal regarding things in the early days?

J.T. That is right; I know who they were too, and there are several here today who know who

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they were. There were several sisters who had a great influence, and were highly regarded by the brethren at that time.

E.A.L. Yet they are to be silent in the assembly?

J.T. Just so, and we are not saying that they should speak, because they are set under a certain restriction. We have said that before, and we must keep it in mind.

E.A.L. Two sisters in New York were asked at the assembly meeting if they would repent as turning from the world to the Lord and the brethren, and they said, No! That shows the importance of persons under discipline being at the assembly meetings where they can be appealed to and the Lord might move their hearts. There was a measure of criticism of the brethren in New York that this should have been allowed; but doubtless it was because the brethren did not understand what we are speaking of now.

A.B.P. I wonder whether the fact of an epistle being written to the elect lady is intended by the Spirit of God to give dignity to the sisters in that way? I am referring to the second epistle of John.

J.T. "The elder to the elect lady and her children"; it is a remarkable thing that she is mentioned as she is.

G.W. How does the matter of Boaz taking ten men of the city at the gate enter into the care meeting? I wondered if the sisters were there?

J.T. Of course they are not mentioned because men are specially required under these circumstances; but you have to go by other scriptures, you have to compare spiritual with spiritual and to go by the general tenor of Scripture, whatever it might be.

C.H.H. I was wondering why in verses 7 and 13 the word "brethren" means, according to the note, 'Men, brethren', as though not applying to sisters?

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They may have been there, but Peter and James are speaking to the 'Men, brethren'.

J.T. We have to consider the word 'brethren', and what it may mean under such conditions. It may mean sisters as well at times, because we are all brethren.

J.H. Would the fact that the sisters are not specifically mentioned either in the book of Ruth or in Acts 15 indicate that if they were there, it would be in a very unobtrusive and unofficial way?

J.T. You would not be sensible that they were there, but yet they might be there.

A.H. I was wondering if the principle can be seen in Acts 1, where it says, "These gave themselves ... to ... prayer, with several women"; and then speaks of "Peter, standing up in the midst of the brethren". No doubt that included the women.

J.T. There they are! It shows that at the beginning they were there. It is the first assembly meeting that we have in the book of Acts. I am glad you mentioned that. "Several women", we do not know how many, but they were there anyway. Mary the Lord's mother was there.

T.S. In connection with the introduction of the Supper by the Lord, would it seem there were just the apostles there?

J.T. It would seem so. But of course you could not think of leaving women out when the assembly is in question. They must be there.

A.H. Could you help us further as regards Acts 1? I am thinking how Peter unfolds the matter to carry all, and then they move forward to fill the place which has been so violated by Judas, filling his place with another according to the Lord's mind; bringing the Lord and the power of the Spirit in as casting lots. Both the deliberative and the executive side were being brought in would you say?

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J.T. All that has been said calls to mind the word 'man', the first mention of man in Scripture, Genesis 1:26. It says there, "Let them have dominion"; the word 'them' is plural, it must include women.

A.H. In thinking over what has been said it comes to me that it embraces the full thought of manhood. As you said, "Let us make man" includes both man and woman; and in Acts 1 it is "with several women". So that the matter to be carried forward needed both, they all had to be carried in the mind of Peter by what he said, and then they go forward together in relation to carrying the matter to a conclusion.

J.T. Just so; I think we may very well assume that, because the word 'man' involves woman: "Let them have dominion" includes the woman as well as the man.

A.R. Acts 1:15 says, "In those days Peter, ... said, ... Brethren", and there is a footnote to that which says, 'men, brethren', yet we are told women were present. Apparently that must be the idea of correspondence to Genesis 1:26: "Let us make man".

J.T. Just so, so that "let them have dominion" includes woman as well as man; the word Adam includes woman as well as man.

S.McC. Is it your thought that inquiry should be made as to making room for the sisters in the care meeting?

J.T. Just so, inquiry before the Lord, because the Lord will not fail us in a difficulty, and a real difficulty has arisen. He would give us understanding in all things.

A.A.T. You referred to Philip's daughters; I was wondering where they prophesied. Would it be in the assembly or in somebody's home?

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J.T. We have to consider the other scripture that was quoted from 1 Corinthians 14, "Let your women be silent in the assemblies".

A.A.T. How can they be silent and yet prophesy?

J.T. The Lord will give us help as to all these matters, because we want the truth. The Lord will not fail us if we seek Him.

A.P. I think what you have been saying bearing on this particular matter of Acts 15 has been in our minds for some time -- that we have nothing positive in Scripture to warrant brothers as such coming together for care meetings; but the positive features of this scripture would indicate that the assembly in some way or other should be involved at the care meeting. The dignity and spirituality of the care meeting would be added to by sisters being present.

J.T. So far as I can see now, the sisters must be admitted when the assembly is in question. The word 'assembly' includes them, it must include them.

R.W.S. The assembly is a feminine vessel, which would be suggestive as to the sisters coming into everything.

J.H. In relation to Mr. T.'s enquiry as to prophecy, does 1 Corinthians 14 not indicate that the sisters would be there in a spirit of prophecy? For it says, "but if all prophesy".

J.T. We might well read the passage, 1 Corinthians 14:23 - 25, "If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and simple persons enter in, or unbelievers, will not they say ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and some unbeliever or simple person come in, he is convicted of all, he is judged of all; the secrets of his heart are manifested; and thus, falling upon his face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you". That is clearly our assembly meeting, and I would say sisters were there; but it does not say that they were prophesying because it

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speaks about only two or three speaking. That is what governs us as to what we shall have tonight; it is limited to two or three.

J.H. I wondered if the words, "if all prophesy", would indicate that all would be there in a spirit of prophecy?

J.T. The brothers would be there, and they would be free to speak, but there are limitations that govern them -- they may speak, two or three.

J.H. Would it be right to connect this scripture in 1 Corinthians 14 with Acts 2, where it says, "They were all filled with the Holy Spirit"? This was following upon the fact that they were all together in one place; and then further on in that same chapter Peter says, "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy". The sisters were there as well as the brothers.

J.T. Quite so; I think that is very important. Then there were the three thousand after Peter's address; there must have been sisters there.

T.N.W. Does it not emphasise what you have been bringing before us recently as to the necessity of all being together in one place? The absence of one affects the whole.

F.K.C. The sisters were evidently all present at the beginning; at the meeting in 1 Corinthians 14 they would be there. The regulation that the apostle makes in 1 Timothy 2:12 is, "I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man". Are not these things to govern us? They must all be held in balance.

J.H. As to restrictions that are given as to sisters, the first one is in 1 Corinthians 14:34: "Let your women be silent in the assemblies", and then in 1 Timothy 2:11,12, "Let a woman learn in quietness". Is what you have referred to in 1 Corinthians 11 as to a woman praying and

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prophesying apart from the idea of teaching and learning such as these scriptures would convey?

J.T. 1 Corinthians 11:5 would indicate that women prophesied under certain conditions. There were many there. We do well to recognise them, and at the same time we also must recognise what is said here and in other passages. Is it comely for a woman to pray or prophesy with her head uncovered? It is a question of a covering. It is not a question of being a woman, but of the covering. We might touch on these same points again in the next reading.

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THE MINISTRY OF ELISHA IN ITS PRACTICAL VALUE (3)

2 Kings 4:1 - 44

J.T. It is not in mind merely to call attention to certain events in the life of Elisha, but to enquire what is the bearing of the truth in regard to him. But first there may be some enquiry as to what was brought out yesterday afternoon in regard to the sisters being present at the care meetings, and also as to the subject of singing in the care meetings. It is mentioned not that we should devote our time entirely to these points, but as to whether there is anything to come out that would be of service to the truth generally before we proceed to the subject of this chapter.

S.McC. Have you overnight received any further confirmation in regard to the sisters being present in the care meeting?

J.T. In truth it has been a very full time, so that I cannot say with any definiteness that I have received further light since yesterday; but I should be glad to receive anything you may have.

S.McC. We have all been talking over the matter; and in relation to Acts 15 I should like to ask if there is any point where you think the sisters would be asked to go out?

J.T. No, there is no point at which the sisters should be asked to go out because the assembly is involved there, and the assembly must include the sisters.

S.McC. That helps, because it has been current in our minds that the one part of the chapter involved the assembly together, and then the next section just the brothers; the next section, investigation, and the last section the full administrative status. But according to what we had yesterday and what we are now saying, that needs looking into.

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J.T. It does; and there is certainly a keen need for looking into the whole matter that has been raised from the meetings yesterday, because we all need help, and I think we all are ready for it, by the Spirit of God. He would give us help.

A.R. Is there a distinction between verse 4 and verse 6 of the chapter?

J.T. I do not think I would make a great distinction; but I think we should do well to read the chapter again, because it is so full of detail. It is the only chapter of the kind we have in the New Testament. We might say that it implies a church council, but we do not so regard it, we just call it a chapter of the Scriptures that is instructive. (Acts 15 read).

A.H. In chapter 4 of the book of Ruth Boaz at first calls ten men specifically, but later he addresses the elders and all the people.

J.T. Quite so, all the people would include the sisters, you mean.

R.W.S. Verse 4 of Acts 15 seems to link on with verse 12; the multitude in verse 12 would certainly include the sisters who would be listening to the account of the work of God.

A.B. Our meetings throughout the week and on the Lord's day have an assembly character, as could be substantiated from Scripture. We have the service of God in 1 Corinthians 11; and according to Acts 20, the reading meetings, as also in 1 Corinthians 3 in relation to the temple of God and the light being there; then in Acts 12 the assembly is connected with prayer; it says there was prayer made by the assembly to God for Peter, so connecting our prayer meeting with the assembly now. We have not scriptures in regard to our care meetings being connected with the assembly; but in Acts 15 is there not something of an assembly status involving all the brothers and sisters? So that we should keep

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in our minds, if something comes up that has to be adjusted, that all should be conducted in a dignified way as being in relation to the assembly. If we looked at the care meeting in the light of the dignity of the assembly it would be greater to us.

J.T. I would say it does imply the assembly.

A.B. We have been viewing it more from our present circumstances than from the assembly side.

J.T. Verses 3 and 4 should be noted; there must have been sisters there, and the multitude in verse 12 would have included sisters.

S.McC. Between verse 4 and verse 12 there is no idea of the sisters going out; it is all one meeting I think. Verses 5 and 6 have been supposed to follow verse 4, whereas it is all of a piece. Verse 5 is what happened historically; verse 6 rightly follows verse 4, it links with verse 4.

J.T. It is a very important matter that "all the multitude" were present while the work of God generally at that time was related by the apostles. It seems to me impossible morally that the sisters should be excluded at such a time as that, excluded from the interest in the work of God generally, abroad in the world. That agrees with what you said?

S.McC. Exactly. I think that is what we are getting at, that the multitude includes the sisters, and that it is all one meeting that we have here.

J.T. Then it says that "it seemed good ... with the whole assembly" in verse 22; and in verse 28 it should be noted that the Holy Spirit is brought in, which is obviously an assembly matter. The multitude alluded to all through must be assumed to include sisters as well as brothers; the sisters could not be excluded.

A.H. Is it established by verse 27 of the previous chapter, and also by verse 3 of this chapter, that

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Paul and Barnabas were not set on their way by the brothers in care, but by the assembly?

J.T. That confirms all we have been saying.

T.S. There is a remark by F.E.R. which he made in this country in which he said, 'he would never call the brothers together; he would call the elders together'.

J.T. It is a question if we can speak in that sense at the present time as they did in the beginning, but the truth must be there. There must be the idea of elders who care for things. That is all I would say as to that. F.E.R. usually left things like that for the brethren to work out.

B.T. Could a sister be an elder? We have sisters in sonship in the morning meeting; could a sister also be an elder?

J.T. Scripture would not warrant that.

B.T. Would verse 6 in relation to the apostles and elders be similar to the ten men of the elders in Ruth? Could it be that there were certain matters that came to the elders before they came to the brethren generally? Not necessarily a care meeting, but that there were certain matters that came to the elders first? I was only wondering if locally certain matters might come to the elders before coming to the attention of the saints generally.

J.T. I think we ought to take the statement as it stands. We cannot say we have apostles and elders today; that was at the beginning of christianity.

B.T. I was thinking of the ten men in Ruth, whether that was a like matter, or would you say not?

J.T. That is not the order in the New Testament, that is the Old Testament order. We cannot apply Old testament Scriptures too exactly as to statements or words. You cannot say they are just the equivalent of the same words in the New Testament because we must make way in our minds for the way

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in which the Spirit of God speaks in the Old and in the New. As we group things in the Scriptures, it is the new and the old, the new first; the New Testament must regulate everything in these matters.

Dr.W. Are there not two questions in this chapter? The first question is as to circumcision; it says, "they arranged that Paul and Barnabas, and certain others from amongst them, should go up ... to the apostles and elders about this question". Is that not a basis for our having a preliminary care meeting of enquiry -- not that we claim to be apostles and elders, but that we act in that spirit -- as to grave questions which come up?

J.T. As to the idea of the apostles and elders -- I think the spirit of that might be carried into what we say, the spirit of it; but we cannot formalise things very well. It is better to go by what is actually in Scripture for regulating assembly order at the present time. Words used in the Old Testament might be brought into the New literally, but not in the spirit of them; in the spirit of things the New comes first. We cannot put them together and make the same order of words or phrases applicable in the New Testament as is found in the Old. The New Testament has great moral pre-eminence over the whole matter.

Dr.W. What would you say about verse 2, and the arrangement there as to those who should go up to Jerusalem?

J.T. A group of brethren could arrange that any time; it is a question of wisdom. Do you agree with that?

Dr.W. It is a little difficult, having learned that we should have a care meeting and be together in the spirit of the apostles and elders, so as to enquire into questions which could not be openly discussed when sisters were present.

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J.T. The chapter we just read indicates clearly that the word 'assembly' implies sisters; they must have been present; that is all I would say there.

R.W.S. Verse 4 precedes verse 6, is that not important? Verse 4 says, "They were received by the assembly", so the sisters were there when this matter was related.

J.T. Undoubtedly; that is what I would say.

A.H. Would you say that this great attack on the truth really required temple light to meet it? The whole assembly had to be there for temple light to be secured.

J.T. Temple light is needed; we can thank God that we have temple light, and while the Holy Spirit is here we shall have temple light. We can act in it even if we have not the apostles. The temple implies the Spirit and the assembly, and the assembly implies the sisters. The sisters must be present, the assembly requires that the sisters be present.

A.H. That greatly helps.

E.A.L. I would refer to the remark just made that we are accustomed to certain things. This very chapter is to set aside a custom that is in the law of Moses but was set aside in the cross. We see in chapter 21 that Paul was a little weak about going back to it. We do not go back to the law of Moses any more, we go on to the truth that we have in the Spirit.

J.T. Therefore we may reiterate the fact that the New Testament acquires a certain pre-eminence. In fact the old economy was in a large measure set aside in view of the present New Testament Scriptures.

J.R.H. There are three verses in this chapter that apply distinctly to the apostles and elders, verses 2, 4, and 6, and in the following chapter, verse 4. I would like to ask how you would regard these apostles and elders in this chapter. Are they

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responsible men acting under God for the help of all the saints?

J.T. Let us turn back to chapter 2 and read verses 37 to 47. Verse 42 speaks of the "teaching and fellowship of the apostles"; that was governing the whole position; it was authoritative. Now I submit to the brethren that this passage indicates clearly the place the apostles had at the outset; the whole position is clearly dominated by the place the apostles had -- they dominated everything. The authority of the Old Testament is not consulted; the apostles took that place. I think we can easily accept that.

J.R.H. Quite so, but what I want to get at is the reason why the apostles and elders were spoken of by themselves here. In other places they are linked with the assembly, but verses 2 and 6 in chapter 15 speak only of the apostles and elders.

J.T. But then these verses we have read in chapter 2 speak of the whole position, the fellowship inaugurated on the authority of the apostles; and that stands in christianity.

J.R.H. Well then, in this decision at Antioch to send to the apostles and elders at Jerusalem, the idea was to take up the matter with responsible men there who had authority from God in relation to the promotion of the truth?

J.T. Quite so; the same thing applies now in the spirit of it.

J.R.H. So then when the assembly is coupled with them, is there the idea of the full assembly authority, do you think?

J.T. Just so; verse 42 of chapter 2 says that "they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles". The word 'fellowship' is greatly stressed there as well as the teaching and they continued in that.

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S.J.H. As we have not the apostles today, is the authority vested in the assembly?

J.T. I would say that.

E.A.L. Is verse 22 important in connection with linking the apostles and elders with the whole assembly? That is, those that went out with Paul and Barnabas went from the whole assembly.

J.T. Just- so. I am sure the sisters should be there; the tenor of the whole matter implies that, I believe. The influence of the sisters under God has a sobering, subduing effect, a beneficial effect, just as we were saying about the use of the minstrel. It had a beneficial effect with Elisha, and every meeting should begin with minstrelsy, that is, with a note of praise to God in the assembly. There ought to be a general understanding as to what is meant as conveyed in Acts 15.

A.R. To make things definite, will you just tell us how you think this meeting should be announced on the Lord's day morning?

J.T. We can afford to wait, and arrive at those points in course of time. The matter will come into current language amongst us according to the truth that has been asserted; we shall have current language for it in time if we are just patient.

C.H.H. Would not one of the advantages of such a meeting be that things could be completed immediately?

J.T. You mean in such a meeting as that in Acts 15? Just so, whenever the circumstances require it; that is what I would say.

T.N.W. Would that be confirmed in the three steps that we have often alluded to in Matthew 18? They seem to be very simple steps; first the individual, then two or three others, then the whole assembly.

J.T. I think that is conclusive. And I would propose that now we proceed with chapter 4 of 2 Kings. What we have had yesterday afternoon

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and today has been largely a diversion, but of great importance as dealing with the whole matter of the truth; and we are always ready for that of course. As convened in this way we should be ready for the truth whatever it may be. At the same time our point for the moment is Elisha, the truth standing in relation to Elisha. There is wisdom seen in him that we may well understand and imitate in any matters of this kind that might come up.

W.W.M. Would you say that one of the great points in these first seven verses is the matter of the Holy Spirit and how much He is becoming valued amongst us? The woman had the oil evidently, but the way she said she had nothing but a pot of oil would seem as if it did not amount to very much in her mind.

J.T. It amounted to a great deal more than she understood, as the event shows. So that what you say is quite right; because the pot of oil has to do with the Spirit, and that is the point that God has raised amongst us recently.

W.W.M. We would all have to admit, possibly, that we have not regarded the Spirit as we should, and that is what this woman seems to teach us.

W.L. Would you say too that the woman got help because she had confidence in the man of God?

J.T. That is right; she had confidence, which is a great matter, and God had put the ability in the man of God to help her. Therefore she did right in applying to him; she says to him, "Thy servant my husband is dead", and so on. She did right in appealing to him and he acted wisely in what he told her to do. That is a great matter for us because we have the spirit of wisdom and we should be prepared to use it when difficult cases arise.

T.S. She was prepared to be instructed.

J.T. Yes, and she was subject. When brethren are in difficulty they should be ready to listen to

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instruction. We have the spirit of wisdom among us, and we can give them instruction. This woman was linked with the sons of the prophets, that is to say with the servants of God whom God was using at that time in the service, so she deserved attention and Elisha gave her the attention she needed, and the whole matter was settled. We have the Spirit of God with us and if anything of this kind arises God would help us by His Spirit to settle matters. As we said before, eldership is included in all this; and even if we have no elders we have the spirit of wisdom amongst us, and we can count on it. That applies to the assembly as being the vessel of light, the vessel in which the Spirit of God is. "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God?" the apostle says; "and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16) The temple of God is the place of light, and there is the settlement of everything in the presence of the Spirit.

Ques. The prophet asked what she had "in the house"; what does that refer to?

J.T. The house refers to a system where there is rule. Her husband was dead so she ruled over things, and the prophet told her what to do. And that was, in principle, to use the Spirit; to lean on the Spirit of God and to use Him, as it were.

A.L. This woman said, "Thy servant my husband is dead, and thou knowest that thy servant feared Jehovah". He was a man who feared God evidently and characteristically the Spirit of God was operating in his heart. She may have despised his will, but that is the legacy he left her.

J.T. Very good; he made his will, so to speak, a good simple way to put it. There was apparently plenty of room for the Spirit; and where that is so He would make known "what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge" (Ephesians 3:18,19).

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THE MINISTRY OF ELISHA IN ITS PRACTICAL VALUE (4)

2 Kings 4:8 - 44

J.T. It may be well to call attention to the use of the term, 'man of God', in 1 and 2 Kings. It is not used much in the New Testament, though it is used of Timotheus; and the question arises as to what there is of this kind at the present time -- of the character of men of God. They are characterised by being identified with God Himself and with His interests. But now I think we should devote ourselves to the details of this chapter; they are very striking and full of instruction in the men and women brought before us. The first one mentioned in the passage read is this wealthy woman called the Shunammite. She is a wealthy person, which is remarkable. We had a sister before us yesterday who was the widow of one of the sons of the prophets, whose children were about to be taken away by the creditor; and she had to make way for the Spirit as typified in the pot of oil. That is, the idea is emphasised of the Spirit of God. But it is remarkable, the prevalence of the term 'man of God'; it strikes me in this chapter at this time, and I wonder if we should not fix our minds upon it to see how it should take on meaning for us.

W.L. Does it appear to be a characteristic matter here, rather than a mere title?

J.T. I think it is characteristic. It is applied to Elijah as well as to Elisha, but particularly now to Elisha. That is, he is characteristically a man who began in a very small way as a ploughman, illustrating what the Spirit of God says in 1 Corinthians 1:26,30 as to "not many noble" and so on being called. We have persons mentioned who show that God has taken up ordinary people; but God makes the man. That is to be stressed in the idea of the man of God,

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that it is not what he has made himself, not his own characteristics, but what God has made him: "of him are ye in Christ Jesus", that is the idea.

A.R. The woman herself calls Elisha this.

J.T. Yes, she does; he is constantly called 'man of God', and she is one who does it. This woman of Shunem is called a great woman, but at the same time she has a right attitude about it; she would seem to be comely and humble about it all despite the wealth she has.

A.H. She says to her husband, "I perceive that this is a holy man of God". Does that indicate that she got some gain from what was set out in the previous incident?

J.T. It does. David said of Abigail, "Blessed be thy discernment" (1 Samuel 25:33); this woman had discernment too. We now have the sisters specially before us and very much has been made of them, and we believe that God is helping us as to the whole matter. It is striking how they behave in these incidents, how simple they are and how comely. This woman is in keeping with the position, making no show of her wealth or of anything that she has as according to the flesh. She appealed to her husband as to Elisha, "this is a holy man of God", she says.

J.P. Does the fact that women come so prominently into the early days of Elisha's ministry suggest to us the need of the subjective work of the Spirit to develop these features of the man of God in us?

J.T. Surely, the subjective work of the Spirit. I was thinking how it would appear: "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!" (Psalm 133:1) and so forth. So it is not a question of what is in heaven, it is what there is to be seen down here, how good and pleasant the brethren appear as seen in unity.

J.P. Peter speaks in his epistle of holy men of God speaking in the power of the Holy Spirit.

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I suppose that would come into Elisha's ministry, the Holy Spirit's power in his speaking.

S.J.H. Would not expressions found in the early service of Elijah and Elisha bear on this term, 'man of God'? Elijah could say, "Jehovah the God of Israel ... before whom I stand"; and Elisha also says, "Jehovah of hosts ... before whom I stand".

J.T. I suppose the idea would be that the servant is just before God. He is not thinking of anyone else, but just of pleasing God. So it was said of an earlier saint, Enoch, that he had this testimony that he pleased God.

S.J.H. That would be the moral basis of the term.

R.A. Is this woman of wealth in power in the place where she dwells? I understand the meaning of the word 'Shunem' is quietness.

J.T. You say quietness? Very good, it is just what should be seen in the sisters to be quiet and restful; not to make a fuss about things, but to be restful and subject.

A.P. Does the thought of the man of God suggest the provision for the assembly to the end of the dispensation as following on the apostolic days, as being what is characteristic in our day?

J.T. Why do you say that, because it is hardly mentioned except in Timothy?

A.P. I thought in connection with the scripture before us that the idea of widowhood and such circumstances as are set out in the widow bring to light the provision that is found in men like Elisha, who is termed the man of God. I thought it would help us as to the understanding and appropriation of the Holy Spirit's service with us to the end.

J.T. Yes; that is the great point that is being stressed at the present time, the matter of the Spirit; it is not simply what is seen in certain men, but the Spirit is taking charge of things. It is not a

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time when we have great men as in earlier days, like the apostle Paul and others such as Luther and Mr. Darby. It is not a time for these. They came up and God made them what was needed; they filled the gap as it were, and they were content to be without any distinction. I think that is the idea, because the Spirit of God is jealous as to what His rights are, as He is in charge of everything. He is here as sent from heaven and He is in complete charge of everything. And so let us continue until the end, for that is what I believe will characterise the end. The Spirit of God is on earth as in us and here with us. This morning, at this very moment, the Spirit is ready to help us and we are conscious of it. As we begin our meeting we are conscious that the Spirit is here; we have the idea of the minstrel. But the Spirit of God is the minstrel really, Himself; He is the power of everything.

A.P. I thought that that fits in with the idea that Elisha does not provide the oil himself; it was there already. That is to say attention is called to what is there, suggestively the Holy Spirit, and the dignity that is proper to Him.

J.T. People are very prone to say, 'Our brother, Mr. So-and-So, the Lord's servant', when we are not always so sure whether we can designate a man as the Lord's servant. The servant himself is not assuming that title, so we had better just be simple about what a man is, and designate him accordingly. What we want is the power, that is the point. We want to see where the Spirit of God is and what He is doing, and that the assembly is in mind. But the subjects of this chapter are very remarkable, and we should confine ourselves largely to them to get the full gain of them beginning with this one about the Shunammite.

C.H.H. Would you suggest that this wealthy woman is a continuation of the previous woman,

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that she is one who is now living "on the rest"; that is, that she is in the value of the Holy Spirit?

J.T. That is good; but there is another thing, Why is she said to be a great woman? Her husband is not said to be a great man. She is distinguished from her husband in that sense, that she must have had means, and why is her husband not in it as well? Or does she control her own money and spend it? As we consider the matter, perhaps she is not such a simple person as we had thought. She should be distinguished as a wife, as having a husband and recognising him, which indeed she does, but perhaps she does not recognise him enough, because she is the one who is doing things. She is the one that is in the lead, which is hardly right.

R.W.S. Is he not rather poor himself from what comes out later? He questioned her going to the prophet, saying, "It is neither new moon nor sabbath". He is not very spiritual, is he?

J.T. Clearly not; he is more or less kindly and subject. He feels what has to be done, you might say, but why should the wife be so distinguished and called a great woman, as she is by the Spirit of God? The word 'wealthy' means 'great'; but why should she be made so much of? Why should there not be just the ordinary thought of man and wife, so that things are according to God? I was just wondering why we cannot get something out of it as to husbands and wives, because here the wife comes so much into prominence, whereas God's thought is to have husbands and wives moving together and not one predominating above the other.

J.L.P. I wondered if she did not set out an excellent spirit in the matter of perceiving, for she says, "I perceive that this is a holy man of God"; but when it comes to making provision for the man of God she says, "Let us". So that do you not

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think we might look into this matter of working things out with one another to get the best?

J.T. Very good. She certainly is not very unseemly. At the same time there is something peculiar in that the Spirit of God brings forward the use of the word 'wealthy' in connection with her instead of placing things in her husband. Then she is the one who constrained the prophet to enter, and who proposed building the room for him. She must have been resting in something that she possessed in view of the man of God and what can be done for him. The question is whether we can get anything out of it as to regularity in these matters, because God is the God of order. It is a question of a man and his wife, and we had better see whether they stand in relation to others as they should and whether the truth of God is being honoured through them. Aquila and Priscilla, for instance, are mentioned six times equally one with the other. There is no distinction between them in that sense.

A.A.T. Is the elect lady mentioned by John a great woman?

J.T. Just so; that is a good example. It is remarkable that John should use that term; he speaks of the elect lady and her children; the children are mentioned too.

W.L. Are you suggesting that this woman is morally similar to Priscilla? And at the present time is it not your thought and the desire of all of us that our sisters should come into things morally and spiritually along with the brothers?

J.T. Along with the brothers -- that is what the Spirit of God is stressing; the sisters should have their place with the brothers under certain limitations. And now the question is whether this woman of Shunem is taking her right place in relation to her husband; whether there is affection with us so that we can be regulated, husbands and wives, according

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to God? Because Aquila and Priscilla, I believe, are excellent examples of the right-minded husband and wife and how they are related one to the other. They shine together and are able to do things; as Phoebe is in Romans where she is mentioned as a servant of the assembly at Cenchrea; a very remarkable thing that she is able to be that.

E.A.L. I would like to get your thought for my own help and that of the brothers as to the place the father has here. It says, "and the child grew, and it came to pass one day, that he went out to his father to the reapers". Is there an implication there that the mother was keeping the son too much to herself, as if she had acquired him through the prophet's word and was not really giving the father the place over him that he should have?

J.T. I think he is rather weak; he sends the sick child back to his mother. Why cannot he do something for him himself?

E.A.L. He sends him back by a servant rather than taking him himself.

A.H. Does Judges 1:13 - 15 help at all in this balanced working of things together? Achsah urges her husband to ask for the field, and she herself asks for springs of water.

J.T. Very good. If you link that up with John 4 you will get something of interest, because it is a woman there too, the woman of Samaria, and she knows all about water. It is wonderful, all that is said to her as to worship in that particular chapter.

A.H. I think that is helpful, because it is striking with that woman that she affects the men: she says, "Come, see a man". She has the Spirit springing up in her.

J.T. Just so. Caleb recognises what is needed in the sister, his daughter; he gives her springs of water because that is what she valued. And that is what is so needed, the power of springs. Achsah

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sprang off her ass and Rebecca sprang off the camel. It is a question of a spring and the power of grace and the Spirit of God acting.

R.W.S. The devil has spoiled the thought of womanhood, has he not, especially here in the States; he has lowered the great place women have in the mind of God. I was thinking too of the allusion Paul makes to "silly women" in 2 Timothy 3:6. In this scripture in Kings there is great public breakdown, and we are living in days of breakdown; so that these feminine features are to be enshrined in the assembly, in their proper setting, our sisters marked by being great spiritually.

J.T. This woman is great apart from her husband clearly; evidently her husband has not made her so. She has money of her own that she can use, and she is going to use it; and of course she does it pretty well; but then the question is whether she has not too much influence in what she is doing?

W.W.M. Do you think that Deborah sets out the right idea? When Barak asks her to go with him she says, I will go with you but it will not be to your honour; you should be head, I do not want to be the head of this matter. Is that the idea?

J.T. Just so; and so it is remarkable that Deborah is not mentioned in Hebrews 11, whereas Barak is; the Spirit of God seems to keep the man in his place, to keep the place filled properly, filled by a man.

T.N.W. Is there anything in the fact that the child's being on her knees till noon did not seem to have any avail? She did not bring her husband into that matter, whereas "men ought always to pray" (Luke 18:1).

J.T. That is right, that is some of the instruction that just came up yesterday. Some may say, What about the prayer meetings? Well, it is clear that women are not to pray audibly in the assembly:

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"I will ... that men pray every where", the apostle says (1 Timothy 2:8).

J.W.F. Would the word in Ephesians 5 in relation to husbands loving their wives even as the Christ also loved the assembly, show us that this matter of the 'man of God' has to be taken on by the husbands in view of the wives becoming what they should be?

J.T. I think it might be well for the passage in Ephesians 5 to be read to get the full bearing of it. (Ephesians 5:22 - 33 read.) There we have the whole subject of husbands and wives in the household; and I think we might well proceed now with our subject in 2 Kings so as to get the bearing of things with this great woman and see how it would help us as to our households.

F.W. In verse 8 it seems that the woman took the initiative without her husband; apparently she had not consulted her husband because it says, "and she constrained him to eat bread. And so it was, that as oft as he passed by, he turned in thither to eat bread". She does not seem to have spoken to her husband till afterward.

J.T. I noticed that. We began with Elisha however; Elisha is our subject; but this great woman should be kept in mind, that as you say she takes the initiative herself. I think God is helping us in this great subject of husbands and wives in the assembly setting; and no doubt it has come up that we might get things in order, that sisters and brothers alike may be regulated by the truth; that sisters may not take the initiative too much but may leave the initiative with the brothers.

G.W. What is in mind in verse 13 where she says, "I dwell among mine own people"?

J.T. Dwelling with our own people is very good, but there is more than that needed; because she might do that and still be boastful of her own wealth and do these things for the man of God on her own

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initiative, getting a room and a bed and all these things without her husband.

R.W.S. Elijah took the child out of the bosom of the mother, and here the child dies on its mother's knees. "He sat on her knees till noon, and died". Is that a balancing thought, as if there is something wrong here and out of balance?

J.T. There is something wrong that we have to get right; so let us proceed with verse 8: "And so it was, that as oft as he passed by, he turned in thither to eat bread. And she said to her husband, Behold now, I perceive that this is a holy man of God, who passes by us continually. Let us make, I pray thee, a small upper chamber" -- we might dwell on that for a moment -- "let us": now that is very good, but you see she is doing it, she is taking the initiative, and I think that has to be corrected somewhat.

C.H.H. Would you say that where there are riches there is always a danger of degenerating into what is Laodicean? As boasting in them there might be degeneration.

J.T. Just so. She is a wealthy woman who has a husband, and things should have been normal between them; but things are happening which indicate that God is dealing in discipline. We want to get the good of this discipline as we proceed, so let us read verses 10 to 16. We see here that she is the actor; she is doing everything. The fact is that she is leading in the whole matter. But still God is with the prophet, and that is the point to notice because we are dealing with Elisha; we want to get all the good we can from this servant Elisha. God is clearly with him, and we can thank God that He is with the servant even if there are certain discrepancies; and I think there are some with Elisha himself because he brings Gehazi into things

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and they take character from that. So the child dies and we have to inquire why we have such discipline as this, that the child should die; and then that Elisha should say to Gehazi, Do so and so. We had better read on from verse 17 to verse 37. There is something wrong with the boy's head, he says, "My head!" but why should it be the head? I think there has been too much education in all probability, and that, attached to the wealth of the mother, is at the bottom of all this. Still, God is in the thing. But the child dies, and now Gehazi is brought into it, and there is a defect in him too. We have to watch and see where there are these defects to be corrected. The woman has a title; she is called the Shunammite; she is evidently a distinguished person and she said it was well with her, but it was not well. Then when the servant did Elisha's bidding the child was not awakened. Things were not going well. Why should they not go well? Nevertheless God is in the whole matter and we have to see how He finally intervenes. But there is much to be considered. What has Elisha in mind, for instance, in looking through the house? What is in the house and what kind of a house is it? What kind of furnishings has it, and are there evidences of pride? The house has to be considered, and the man of God has to change his methods too, so that there are certain discrepancies all around. As we were saying, why should he walk through the house to and fro? Is it to see what is going on there, what magazines might be there and all that sort of thing? Because whatever things are wrong are in mind for correction. Then finally God comes in in resurrection, and we read that the woman took up her son and went out. And so the matter is settled, satisfactorily settled. Still, there were discrepancies that need not have been there, and that is the point we need to learn.

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Now I think we might as well go on to the next section as we have this great matter settled, and have something for our souls, I trust, every one of us. We might read from verse 38 to the end of the chapter. Here we have the sons of the prophets coming forward again, the younger generation, and what marks them? Someone is careless in what he is doing, in what he shreds into the great pot, and he is causing death. If that is not corrected there will be moral death. But the man of God knows what to do, and we can always say, Thank God for the man of God. He is thinking for God, and the thing is adjusted as it should be.

A.H. Does Gilgal in Joshua 5 offset this matter of Gilgal here, do you think? It says there that "This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you". And then immediately following on that it says that "they ate of the old corn of the land". Why should there be famine in Gilgal if the truth is maintained?

J.T. Why indeed?

J.P. You were stressing in the beginning of these meetings the setting out of the spirit of grace on the part of Elisha. Do I gather that you are now drawing to our attention the manner in which Elisha is meeting all these various conditions, that we might be able to see the spirit in which the work is carried out?

J.T. Quite so, how emergencies can be met and discrepancies corrected; the chapter is full of details in this respect.

W.L. In going to Gilgal would Elisha still be finding the need in himself for self-judgment?

J.T. Just so, it is a question of dealing with the flesh. The flesh is still there and we must deal with it.

A.R. The salvation of the younger ones lies in being near the older brothers and sisters.

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J.T. I think that is good because they are not inclined that way; they gravitate towards each other instead of listening to, and being with, the older brothers and sisters, and that is where their safety lies. They mingle with each other just because they are young, but the older ones would have more influence with them for good than could be found amongst themselves.

F.K.C. In this paragraph it calls attention to "a wild vine", and "wild colocynths".

J.T. That is some youthful influence I am certain, and there is death in the pot on account of that. God alone can save us from all these things.

R.W.S. And it is "into the field". Would that be some feature of the world?

J.T. Very likely.

A.H. Will you say something about the meal, please?

J.T. It is the humanity of Christ that is in mind. It is not the kind of humanity where young people would desire to have this and that and to make a show. It is the Spirit of Christ that we want, that kind of humanity, that kind of man; let us bring Him into our evenings or whatever gatherings it may be.

F.W.W. Will you tell us what you have had in mind recently in connection with the reading of whole passages of Scripture? Is it because there is the danger of taking verses out of their context if they are read by themselves? And then you mentioned also the matter of procedure in the giving out of hymns.

J.T. We are to let the Scripture have its full place. And if hymns are to be sung, let us sing hymns, and not parts of hymns. I do not say we may not give out parts of hymns, but I think there is too much of it, giving out one verse where a whole hymn could be sung as it was intended to be sung.

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If it was worth composing it is worth singing as a whole at a given time. It should be a great matter in settling and balancing things amongst us to have the idea of the minstrel more prominent, to have the hymns sung properly and sung well. We do not get the idea of the hymn at all in one verse, not the whole idea.

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THE MINISTRY OF ELISHA IN ITS PRACTICAL VALUE (5)

2 Kings 5:1 - 27

J.T. As has already been remarked, these incidents in 2 Kings are evidently intended to bring out certain features amongst us, particularly as to the household. Here we have the case of the little maid who is to be used in this remarkable way, and undoubtedly it is to remind us how children and young people may be used; and on the other hand how certain grown-up persons may be affected on the lines of deceit and covetousness. These are the great facts that enter into the present reading, especially how young people may be used in the households. Naaman is the leading figure in this incident but perhaps we have not noticed the little maid so much and what affected her, how she is influenced in a good direction. She was just a maid to a certain mistress but she was full of the good that she should do at this particular time.

C.H.H. It is remarkable that there is no resentment shown by her. She might have resented the fact that she had been carried away captive, but there must have been a work of God in her.

J.T. Just so, she accepts her circumstances; it is a question of the government of God. Although a young person, she is ready to do things and she is affected by what affected her master. Her exclamation in verse 3, "Oh, would that my lord were before the prophet that is in Samaria!" would show that. She is not simply a maid, but a little maid, affected by what affected her master, the one above her; showing that young people are to learn to be subject and appreciate conditions, and to do the best they can in any given circumstances in subjection to God.

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S.J.H. Was it not remarkable that she knew the prophet could cure her master? There was no one else cured of leprosy, was there?

J.T. That was the point, she apparently knew. What remarkable intelligence she had! I am remarking that in view of the number of young people that are coming along in the truth, that they may become useful and take on things, and do anything they can in any given circumstance to bring out what is of God.

A.H. You remarked this morning on the importance of the young people keeping company with the old. This incident would seem to show that she had kept some company with the prophet.

J.T. She accepts the position. It is striking to me that we are told she is a little maid, meaning that she is just a servant who was waiting on Naaman's wife. She was subject and she was intelligent, but how did she know all this?

A.H. You would think, therefore, that before her captivity she must have kept company with the prophet?

J.T. We have to infer that for she certainly knew that he had this power. Another thing that comes up is the pride of Naaman; he expected the prophet to do so and so and recognise his importance.

Ques. Would this incident show the value of very early instruction for our children in the knowledge and ways of God?

J.T. Certainly, parents ought to teach the children as much as possible, teach them what is good and give them to know that time is important, of great value and to be utilised and not wasted.

F.W. The exclamation shows it was a very real matter with her.

J.T. It shows that she was a really feeling person. Although she was only a little girl, a little maid, she was a feeling person; the exclamation would show

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that. She was not simply a person paid to do things, but her heart was in the thing -- that her master should be cured.

R.W.S. She knows how to speak; she can speak well of those who serve the Lord. Is it not important in these days to know how to serve the Lord and to speak well of those who do?

J.T. Just so.

F.W. Anyone preaching the glad tidings should have the feelings of this little maid.

J.T. Quite so; that a little person like this in such menial circumstances should be so affected is very striking and commendable and ought to be very instructive to all young people here at the present time.

J.H.P. Is it not striking that the Lord may use any agency in order to make His work manifest? In Luke 4 the Spirit of God calls attention to this passage we have read today. These persons were singled out so that the work of God might be manifest.

J.T. Quite so; it is a time of the sovereignty of God, and we cannot say things must be done because of the circumstances; we must count on the sovereignty of God in doing things. The Lord Jesus Himself uses these incidents to bring out the sovereignty of God, that God acts as He pleases. We must not expect Him to do as we please, He does as He pleases.

A.B. This morning we were referring to the great or wealthy woman, and you were emphasising the discrepancies in the chapter; but here we have a little maid who had right feelings. It says she was brought out of the land of Israel, a very touching matter, that she is carrying God's thoughts with her in relation to His people. It says nothing about the divided kingdom but that she was brought "out of

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the land of Israel"; she is apparently a trustworthy person.

J.T. Just so. We can only speak typically; the Old Testament contains types but the type is a type of something, and the thing is to see what the something means. Undoubtedly here it is the sovereignty of God to which the Lord is calling attention: that there are things to be done and God would do them as He pleases. It is for us to count on God. So the little maid is to be noticed first and the next thing would be the pride of Naaman. He expects that the prophet would do so and so for him, but Elisha does not do it; instead he humbles him; he says, "Go and wash in the Jordan seven times" and he went and plunged in and was cleansed. But he would not do it at first. His servants enjoined him however; they said that if the prophet had told him to do some great thing would he not have done it? So he humbled himself, and the thing for us older people to do is to humble ourselves and not expect great things to be done for us; but to humble ourselves and do what we are told to do.

E.A.L. The little maid gives a great example to us; she had faith that something could happen that had never happened before; she had no knowledge of anyone ever before being cured of leprosy. Do you think it fits in with what the Lord said to Nathanael, "Thou shalt see greater things than these" (John 1:50)?

J.T. We have been enlarging on that quite recently, the idea of greater things. It is a question of having great expectations, but on right lines. So the Lord enlarges on what was said, and He says, "Thou shalt see greater things than these".

R.W.S. I was thinking what great matters are set in motion by just a remark of this little maid; and then the availability of Paul's sister's son who

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becomes Paul's saviour. Great matters can come from young persons moving rightly.

J.T. Very good; and another incident of a young person comes in in connection with prayer, in the case of Rhoda. Much prayer had been made for Peter, yet the brethren did not believe that he had been delivered despite their prayers for him, showing the inconsistency that oftentimes marks us. They had been praying for a thing and now they were not ready for it; they said Rhoda was mad, so that she was persecuted because of this unbelieving attitude.

J.P. Do you think that services of this kind taken on by our young people in our localities would considerably help in developing in them the features of men of God?

J.T. Very good.

W.W.M. This little girl demonstrates an instance of a young person coming from a godly home where things are right; whereas in the chapter we had this morning things were not right as was shown by the fact that the boy had it all in his head, and he died. But this girl had it in her heart, and she was capable of bringing it out at a right time.

J.T. Quite so, and she had feeling about it too. No doubt her mistress would appreciate the feeling of the girl for her master. "Oh, would that my lord were before the prophet that is in Samaria!" she said; she was full of feeling and reality in the thing; and of course that is what is needed in the service of God, to have right feelings and if it is a right thing to be thoroughly in it and do it well.

B.W. Would you say she was rendering testimony in a foreign land?

J.T. She accepts her circumstances, although humbling; that I think is the point. She is in thorough keeping with the work to be done and has feelings about it. But how is Naaman affected? Is

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he affected as much as the little maid? I do not think he is.

J.P. Sometimes we think our circumstances are not so propitious as they might be. Would this help us to see that in God's ordering our circumstances are set on the lines of being available for service?

J.T. Available for service, exactly, and very extended influential service in the case of this little girl.

A.W. Does she keep herself in subjection, would you say, when she goes to her mistress and refers to the man as "my lord"?

J.T. Yes; she does not attempt to approach Naaman herself; she has discernment as to what is right; in her case she should not go to a man like that and speak to him directly, but she goes to her mistress. It is an orderly, sensible, suitable thing to do.

Ques. Would it link on with what the apostle says in Philippians 1:12,13, as to his adverse circumstances turning out to the furtherance of the glad tidings?

J.T. Very good.

A.R. What you said is important, that this maid is in her circumstances in relation to her God; God is operating sovereignly in her.

J.T. Yes, that is the idea I think; and she would have the information brought to her master in a seemly way through her mistress; so that we have what follows in verses 4 and 5 where the king takes up the matter.

R.B.P. Joseph was carried off to Egypt, but he never lost his excellent spirit.

J.T. Very good, and he never lost his feelings. He was entirely superior to his circumstances; so that the great question for us is as to superiority to our circumstances, so that we should be able to do things with a right spirit and feeling.

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B.T. Is there not gain in naming things as they are? She says he would "cure him of his leprosy"; she was not afraid to name the disease, to call it what it was; whereas in the preceding chapter the woman said it was well when it was not well.

J.T. Just so; and no doubt persons would whisper among themselves, Do you know that Naaman is a leper? But this maid knew, and she names the thing, and it was his leprosy, it was Naaman's own case. Now the question is what Naaman will do. The whole thing is confused and darkened by the king of Syria's action, and then the king of Israel rent his garments, another foolish and unseemly thing, and unreal. The king of Israel is quite mistaken and the whole thing is darkened, and Naaman himself is not right about it. He is full of pride, and how often it darkens us when pride and hurt feelings enter into things of this kind!

A.R. Is that not leprosy in its essence -- pride?

J.T. Just so; but now in verse 8 we come to "Elisha the man of God"; now we come to the real work of God in Elisha, representing grace, which is the subject before us. So when Naaman is told to wash in Jordan seven times it is the light of God for him; but how is he going to treat it? "Naaman was wroth", it says. How seriously we may be affected in the pride of our hearts when we might have been saved and helped in some way!

J.P. Elisha said to the king in verse 8, "let him come now to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel". Is it in your mind that calling attention to the man of God and what he stands for is of greater importance than the cure of leprosy in itself?

J.T. Just so; it is the light; Elisha represents the light of God and that was the great point at the time; Elijah and Elisha represent what was current, Elisha following up Elijah, so that the word of God proceeds.

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But now the one who needs help is full of pride and almost misses the blessing. Still, he is capable of being put right, and it is a great matter to have a brother capable of being put right when he is wrong so that he is saved thereby.

E.A.L. The little maid spoke of the prophet that is "in Samaria", but really the prophet was in Israel.

J.T. The little girl is dealing with the facts. She is not a politician, she does not know things as a politician would know them; she is simple and treats the facts as they are; that is, "the prophet that is in Samaria"; not simply Israel, but nearby. Literally these are the very facts.

R.W.S. She had faith, and that transcends any political barriers.

A.H. The prophet himself had had good experience with the Jordan. I wonder if the import of it is in the insistence that this man should use it?

J.T. Quite so; there is virtue in the Jordan. Apparently this is the first great miracle that Elisha performed. He was quite conversant with the Jordan, and that gives force to his message to Naaman to go and use its waters.

H.P. Would that be emphasised by the word in Zechariah 4:6, "not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit"? I wondered if the sovereign action of the Spirit entered into Naaman's going down and washing so that his flesh became again like the flesh of a little child?

J.T. He does what he is told now that he is amenable to correction, which is a very great matter for the man who has been wrong. To be amenable to correction is a great matter and salvation depends upon it.

J.W.D. Why was the regular procedure for the cure of leprosy not taken up here?

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J.T. It is a question of who is doing it; it was the maid. We are dealing with her, and our children here before us must be helped on those lines. This is not the way to cure leprosy according to the types; it is just an ordinary thing, to wash in Jordan. What is the virtue in it? It must be the connection with Elisha, the virtue must lie there; he represents grace in the service of God.

S.J.H. Could you help us as to helping Naaman to come down? The servants seem to have had power to bring this haughty man down.

J.T. It is having influence for good; these servants had influence for good and they used it, and Naaman was amenable to it and was saved in that way.

S.J.H. Do you not think we need help on these lines?

J.T. I do think so, as to having influence for good and using it as much as possible. It would be a great matter if the brethren all used the influence they have for good and let it be extended to others.

R.A. At the beginning of these meetings something was said of the numeral seven and it comes in here in this passage.

J.T. Showing that the prophet is intelligent from the divine standpoint. God Himself uses the numeral seven very much; it is a numeral which has great importance in Scripture. Numerals are of great importance because they convey light from God; God uses them Himself very much.

R.W.S. The servants of Naaman are skilled in the way they approach him: "My father", they say. Do they not express the kind of grace that is represented in Elisha?

J.T. The expression "my father" here is to be noted because it comes down from Elisha. He had used it himself. Now Naaman was a big man with his horses and chariots, but as we have said, he was

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too proud. So Elisha uses the numeral seven that belongs to the divine way, and sends a messenger to convey it; not anything very great, but just a messenger, as Mary Magdalene was sent to speak for the Lord. Elisha says how the cure is to be made; it is not the ordinary way of the types; it is a question of what the little girl has proposed, showing how her word has been carried, and the success is complete.

A.H. As to the word 'wash', have you any thought as to the insistence on the person himself doing it?

J.T. It might I believe refer to the epistle of John, the great abstract truth that comes in there. It is that sort of thing. But Naaman was wroth; he was not ready for it, and it is often so with us; we are not ready for the truth. Naaman "thought", that is, he was occupied with his own importance which would interfere with his own blessing. He said, "I thought, He will certainly come out to me"; but why should he come out to him? What a man of God Elisha is! Naaman had no idea of what Elisha was; he had no sense really of what the man of God was. Naaman was a remarkably wise and good man, but still a wise and good man may be very foolish when his pride is hurt.

Dr.W. It takes great skill to deal with an angry man, does it not?

J.T. Just so. He wanted Elisha to come out and call on the name of Jehovah and make it a big matter, just as is current in Rome now, a big matter, conveying religious bigness and superiority. He says, "I thought, He will ... call on the name of Jehovah his God, and wave his hand". That is very like Rome, making some sign of that kind as if it were effective. Then Naaman goes on to speak about his country, and what goes on in Damascus. It is nothing

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but human pride and national feeling, and that often stands in the way of the saints of God.

C.H.H. That is different from the man in Luke 7he said to the Lord that he was not worthy that He should enter into his house, but would He just speak the word? There is quite a contrast between the spirits of these two men.

J.T. Just so; faith existed in the man in the New Testament. So this man speaks of what he expected the prophet to do. Then he goes on to talk about national position and importance: "Are not the Abanah and the Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel?" -- as you might say, Are not the things in America greater than the things in other countries? It is just national pride, and we must be rid of it if we are christians. So it goes on that "he turned and went away in a rage". He is standing in his own light, as many do. But "his servants drew near, and spoke to him and said, My father, if the prophet had bidden thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he says to thee, Wash and be clean?" It is common sense very often that is needed, and now he is sensible and takes good advice; he is amenable to good advice. "Then he went down, and plunged himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God". And why should he not? It is well worth while to get thoroughly washed. "And his flesh became again like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean". That is a wonderful finish to this great episode! He says, "Behold, I know that there is no God in all the earth but in Israel" -- he has got light. But then we have more -- we see now with Gehazi what may happen in the way of selfishness and the desire for gain. Paul speaks about it, that his own work was without any desire for gain. So Naaman said to Elisha, "I pray thee, take a present of thy

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servant", but Elisha refused it. We want to see, those of us who are serving, that we are not serving for gain. Elisha said, "As Jehovah liveth, before whom I stand, I will receive none! And he urged him to take it; but he refused. And Naaman said, If not, then let there, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of this earth" -- he felt there was virtue in it -- "for thy servant will no more offer burnt-offering and sacrifice to other gods, but to Jehovah". He is not going to be heathen any more, he is going to get real blessing; but then what is Gehazi going to do? Naaman is a converted man we might say; he says, "In this thing Jehovah pardon thy servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon ... Jehovah pardon thy servant, I pray thee, in this thing". But now we want to see what the selfishness of Gehazi is; and we are concerned about this in our service to God and to the brethren, as to whether we are serving for gain. Gehazi is marked by downright lies and selfishness; he wants to serve for gain, against which we must all set ourselves. It is very solemn and ought to appeal to everybody here, especially to any who are in any way serving the Lord, that they are not doing it for any personal advantage. Elisha sets out the truth beautifully in his answer to this man.

W.W.M. Do you think that Elisha sets out the right thought of the servant in the service of God, whereas Gehazi would refer somewhat to the clerical system that has taken on this leprosy through the love of money?

J.T. That is what it is, and the apostle Paul shows that he was never governed by that, especially in 1 Corinthians 9. Perhaps you will quote a little more as to this.

W.W.M. In 1 Timothy 3:8 it says of the ministers, "not seeking gain by base means"; so that anything

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that is in the line of money in the service of God is a matter of great exercise.

J.T. We must all be clear of it and set our faces against it; the service of God is to go on without covetousness, for, if we are not set against it, others will be corrupted.

A.S.B. Had you the Corinthian epistles in your mind today? You quoted from chapter 1 this morning, "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who has been made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and holiness, and redemption". The word that you referred to came to one between the meetings, and I felt rebuked in my spirit for not responding more to the wealth of the Spirit in this book, in such passages as the end of chapter 1, and chapter 2:9 - 12. And then as to the matter of gain and the truth of separation: there is the danger that we may be serving the saints of God for gain; but what we are to have in mind is the prosperity of God's work in our localities and the glory of God.

J.T. And now that the sisters are having more place and liberty amongst us, it is that they too may take on the Spirit of Christ. It is really a question of the incarnation, the truth of the incarnation of Christ; a matter of the kind of man we have to do with and that kind of man is Christ. It is worked out in the first and second letters to the Corinthians -- the kind of man that is to be in the service.

F.K.C. In 2 Corinthians 2, the apostle in going over this matter, says, "But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ, and makes manifest the odour of his knowledge through us in every place"; and then at the end of the chapter, "For we do not, as the many, make a trade of the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as of God, before God, we speak in Christ".

A.B.P. Gehazi-like men would seem to be in Paul's mind in Philippians 3:17 - 19, "enemies of the

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cross of Christ". They were evidently serving for gain.

J.R.H. It would appear that Gehazi borrows this beautiful expression from his master when he says, "As Jehovah liveth". Would he not have been preserved from this line of gain for himself if he had been moving in the good of that expression? Would you say that this borrowing of good expressions really enlarges the iniquity and is leprosy in itself, a Romish feature?

J.T. I was just thinking of that, though I was somewhat avoiding reference to that system and what is current in it at the moment, that is, the statement that Mary has been received up bodily into heaven. Think of the awfulness of that! The brethren do well to be on the alert against it and rebuke it as far as possible.

J.L.P. Should we not note that in God's governmental dealings the effects of His judgment are not only on Gehazi, but upon his seed for ever?

J.T. Just so. It is terrible what is going on in that system, to which we have referred! We are not ignorant of what is current in this very country we are in. But on the other hand according to the book of Revelation Russia is the devil's agent as well as Rome; we have there the beast and the false prophet, which would involve Russia. We have a terrible situation current, and we do well to be with God about it for the devil is working in it. We need to stir up our minds as to the awfulness of what is present in the world, first as to Rome and secondly as to Russia, for these are the two agencies the devil is using to corrupt the whole world. The one is Bolshevism, centering in Russia; and the other is Roman Catholicism, centering in Rome. We are all exposed to these two great features, and we have to be on our guard because they are leading up to the time of the end, to the coming of the Lord. Our

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great hope is the coming of the Lord, His appearing, it says; it speaks of those who love His appearing. What a great thought that is! The Lord values those who love His appearing. And meantime those that love the Lord are serving for nothing. They love the Lord, and they are doing it because they love Him; they are serving in love. The prophet says his heart went with Gehazi when he followed Naaman, as much as to say, Gehazi, I know exactly what you are doing and what your motives are. That is, he was serving for gain. Elisha knew exactly what he was doing, God gave him light as to it.

F.K.C. In Philippians 4:3 the apostle speaks to his "true yokefellow", the idea of 'true' there being 'genuine', as though the genuineness of persons comes out in service.

J.T. That would mean that the apostle Paul had the fullest confidence in Timotheus, that is to say family feeling -- he is his child.

C.H.H. The apostle Paul calls attention to the words of the Lord Jesus, how He said, "It is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts 20:35).

J.T. The words of the Lord Jesus, that is very beautiful, a beautiful thought for us, that it is more blessed to give than to receive. So we are not like Gehazi, serving for gain. The prophet discerned what he was doing too; so that we shall not escape if we are doing this, we shall be exposed. The Spirit of God will expose it if we are at all covetous in the service of the Lord.

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Pages 298 to 438 -- "Prophetic Ministry and the Service of God" Meetings in France, 1939 (Volume 188).

RENEWAL

Romans 12:2; Colossians 3:9 - 11; Titus 3:4 - 7

J.T. The subject before us is renewal. It is said in Hebrews 8:13 that the state of things under the old covenant became aged; so also christianity apart from the principle of renewal must grow old, and this applies not only to what we call the general profession, but to those of us who are really believers. Unless we maintain the principle of renewal we shall grow old and become stale, even in our meetings together. The passage in Colossians 3:10 speaks about the "new" man, which here signifies 'young', or 'fresh'.

Ques. Would you tell us the difference between the two words used in Greek and translated by the word "new"?

J.T. The "new man" in Colossians 3:10, as we have just seen, suggests youth and freshness. The other word translated "new" suggests what is entirely different, in contrast to what is old. We should be fresh and young in our christianity, and also different from current religion.

Ques. In John 3, we have the new birth, something entirely new. Would you say that what we have here is the continuation of what is presented in the new birth?

J.T. In John 3, in the expression "born again", we have yet another word, meaning 'from above', or 'from the beginning', that is, entirely different, for the whole being is affected. God is not making over again the old man. According to John 2 there were those who believed on Christ's name because of His signs, but it says the Lord "did not commit

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himself unto them". Many have been affected by christianity; they have been mentally affected by it and abandoned their earlier religions, but as not born again they are not to be trusted. Hence the truth of the new birth is immediately introduced, which is in principle the new man. It is said, however, that the new man is created, so that new birth is the beginning of the thing. The new man spoken of in Colossians and Ephesians is parallel with the doctrine of new birth. New birth, however, contemplates the family side; the word 'birth' implies that; but the new man is a creation. Adam was "of God" (Luke 3:38) on the family line, but he was also part of the creation; so that he is a creature as well as belonging to the family of God.

What is in mind in Romans 12 is the renewal of the mind, and in Colossians renewal of knowledge. In Titus it is the renewal of the Holy Spirit, which is a great general thought, not specific as are the other two.

The mind has a great place in Romans. In the end of chapter 7 the believer is seen as having control of his mind; he says, "So then I myself with the mind serve God's law". Each believer should be in control of his mind.

Ques. What is the difference between the mind and the intelligence? The two words are used in the first two verses of Romans 12.

J.T. "Which is your intelligent service" (verse 1) and then "the renewing of your mind" (verse 2); is that which you mean? Intelligence implies the mind as active in a measured way; hence the service is morally such as it should be, and based upon the teaching which has preceded. In verse 2 it is the thinking faculty; so that it is really a member of a man. Hence in 1 Corinthians 2:16 we, believers, are said to have "the mind of Christ"; it is the same word as here (verse 2) and it designates the

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intelligent faculty with its thoughts (see note, New Translation). A person newly converted requires the renewal of his mind; in the end of Romans 7 he has control over it. Men naturally under Satan have their minds darkened. Chapter 7 shows that the believer is clear; he is morally right, for he says: "I myself with the mind serve God's law"; that is not the ten commandments, but whatever may come from God authoritatively; he is subject to it. In that way he becomes a board in the tabernacle, and the Spirit, as mentioned so frequently in chapter 8, supports him in this. The Spirit is implied in chapter 12: "be transformed by the renewing of your mind"; that would be by the power of the Spirit. It preserves the believer from staleness. There is constant need of freedom from the darkening influences of the world. Hence our conversation is to be fresh and spiritual, so that, when we are assembled together, there may be freshness in all that comes out. The use we make of our bodies here is said to be "intelligent service". We are to present our bodies a living sacrifice; that would be in accord with the renewed mind, as over against being conformed to this world. If we imitate this world in our clothes and in our manners, our minds are shown not to be renewed.

Rem. The believer is in danger of losing his freshness, as the nazarite was.

J.T. Hence the nazarite was not to drink wine. That, of course, is not literal but spiritual, for the Lord Himself drank wine literally. Therefore, it alludes to what would stimulate us in a worldly sense. Abstinence from wine would mean disallowance of the stimulating forces of nature. But wine is also a type of spiritual stimulation; it accompanied certain offerings (Numbers 15:1 - 12).

Ques. Would the young man, at the end of Mark, "sitting on the right, clothed in a white robe", be

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an example of youthfulness, freshness and non-conformity to this world?

J.T. He represents what is particularly needed in those of us who serve, and the two men in white at the ascension (Acts 1:10) represent the developed state of purity which is proper to christianity.

Ques. What would the wine at the marriage in Cana suggest?

J.T. It has just been remarked that wine is also typical of what is spiritually stimulating. It was to accompany certain meat-offerings (Numbers 15). There are graded offerings in that chapter, and the wine was to be increased according to the size of the offering. The wine in John 2 would have a spiritual significance; it alludes to the millennial joy that Christ will introduce presently; it alludes to what will be set up in the millennium on the earth, as being the last dispensation it will afford most joy. The good wine is kept for the end. This marriage scene is millennial.

Ques. What is the meaning of the drink-offering which is added to the burnt offering or to the sacrifice?

J.T. It is for divine satisfaction.

Rem. There is the thought of joy.

J.T. Yes, what Christ is to God. How stimulating and satisfying Christ as Man here was to God! When Jacob set up a pillar at Bethel (Genesis 28) he anointed it, but there was no drink-offering. When he returned to Bethel twenty years later (Genesis 35) he poured a drink-offering on the pillar which he erected this second time. In the first scripture God was in heaven and Jacob on earth, but in the second scripture God came down and stood by Jacob to communicate great things to him. Jacob would thus know that he was pleasing to God, and hence he poured a drink-offering on the pillar. It was the

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house of God. The house of God must afford pleasure to God. Hence where a drink-offering was connected with an offering, it was never to be lacking. So, when we come together in assembly, as pleasing God in our every day walk, we have the sense in assembly that we do please Him. Even together as we are now in the Spirit, we provide pleasure to God. It is not only that God is here to help us, but He is here to have joy Himself with us.

Ques. What difference is there between the two expressions, "If anyone be in Christ, there is a new creation" (2 Corinthians 5:17) and "having put on the new man"?

J.T. The expression 'new creation' is a wider thought than the new man, the latter belongs to the new creation. The whole realm of God is created anew, and there "all things are of God" (2 Corinthians 5:18). The new man is in the midst of the old creation as a testimony. Hence the moral characteristics are given, more particularly in Ephesians 4:20: "But ye have not thus learnt the Christ, if ye have heard him and been instructed in him according as the truth is in Jesus; namely your having put off according to the former conversation the old man which corrupts itself according to the deceitful lusts; and being renewed in the spirit of your mind; and your having put on the new man, which according to God is created in truthful righteousness and holiness". The "truthful righteousness and holiness" here are contemplated as moral qualities, whereas the characteristics of new creation are stated to be, "If any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new: and all things are of the God who has reconciled us", that is, as reconciled, we are brought in under God's eye for His pleasure; but in the new creation itself all things have become new, and all things are of God.

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We may now refer to the renewal in Colossians 3, "renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him". This brings us on to a wonderful platform in regard of knowledge; it is a very remarkable statement. This is not the kind of knowledge we get in current literature in the world, nor does that literature help us in this knowledge. The religious organisations of christendom make divine knowledge a science. Theology is the science or knowledge of God, and men enter seminaries and universities to acquire knowledge on that principle, so as to become ministers of God. But Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:11, "For who of men hath known the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? thus also the things of God knows no one except the Spirit of God. But we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God, that we may know the things which have been freely given to us of God: which also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, communicating spiritual things by spiritual means". So that the attempt to acquire the knowledge of God by worldly means is useless or worse. To acquire ordinary education, for example the knowledge of languages, is of God if used for the promotion of the knowledge of Himself. We can thank God for the ability which gave us J.N. Darby's translation of the Bible; but even the translation of the Bible is not exactly the thought of "communicating spiritual things by spiritual means". Mr. Darby said that in this work he was just a hewer of wood and drawer of water for the congregation; he therefore did not assume that he was applying this high standard of knowledge in this work of translation. We may add, however, that the large measure of spiritual intelligence possessed by J.N.D.

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enabled him to give a spiritual stamp to his work which no other translation possesses.

The apostle says here that the new man is "renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him; wherein there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is everything, and in all". Christ is not everything in the modern universities; in some of them He is nothing. So that this knowledge is the antidote of all the evil of modernism. It is "according to the image of him that has created him", and takes us out of all the distinctions that characterise the world -- "Christ is everything, and in all".

Ques. Are we not in danger of being marked by one of these features if not by more? Sometimes we think we are clear of nationality, but here we have social distinctions, sects, and civilisations as well.

Ques. In the second epistle of Peter we have eight features which characterise the new man, beginning with faith and ending with love, and these features bring us livingly and actively into the knowledge of Christ. Peter's service at that moment is to remind us of these things. Then Peter speaks of Christ whom he saw on the mount of transfiguration; He was transfigured. Is not that a pattern of this renewal which we are looking at? And to acquire such a renewal day by day Peter speaks to us afterwards of a prophetic word. Is that the road to follow to continue in renewal?

J.T. Peter's second epistle represents strikingly what we have been speaking of. He stresses the idea of acquiring certain things by means of other things; that is, you must have one thing in order to have another thing. He says, "To them that have received like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ" -- faith is through righteousness. Then, "Grace and peace be

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multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. As His divine power has given to us all things which relate to life and godliness" (it is not said that He has given it to us, but His divine power) "through the knowledge of him that has called us by glory and virtue, through which he has given to us the greatest and precious promises, that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature". Thus Peter in his second letter is dealing with tangible spirituality; showing that certain spiritual qualities come to us through other qualities. It is in this way that the new man is developed in us. Another thing about Peter's second letter is that he tells us in it for the first time, as far as Scripture relates, of the glory on the mount of transfiguration. He also significantly speaks of "our beloved brother Paul", (2 Peter 3:15) indicating that what we have had before us includes admiration of the brethren.

Ques. Would you say that as he nears heaven, he considers those who are on earth from the highest and most heavenly standpoint?

J.T. In his youth Peter had presumed to love the Lord more than others. Now he is ready to lay down his life for the Lord; saying that the Lord had showed him that he would die as a martyr. The Lord said, "When thou shalt be old", indicating that when the brethren grow old, they should increase and not diminish in their spirituality. Peter's second letter, in this sense, is much more pointed than the first. It is a matter of particular importance for all brothers and sisters as we come near the end, for we are apt to become cloudy and depressed, unless we maintain this freshness of which we have been speaking.

Rem. In the family of God according to John's epistle there are children, young men and fathers, but there are no old men.

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J.T. Yes; but there it is more the idea of the family in its gradations. But Scripture gives a great place to aged believers. It is of great importance to retain faculties in old age, as is shown by certain facts in the Old Testament. It is said of Moses that "his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated" (Deuteronomy 34:7). In Peter's case the Lord contrasts what marked him in his youth and what would mark him in his old age, so that his advanced years helped rather than hindered him. What we speak of as ripe age does not mean old as we have it in Hebrews 8:13: "that which grows old and aged is near disappearing". In Ecclesiastes 12:3 we have the description of an aged person about to die: "The keepers of the house tremble, and the strong men bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few ... for man goeth to his age-long home". We can see that all that is offset in spiritual history in a man like Moses, or in such a man as "Paul the aged", full of vigour and having no fear of death; his personality was increased by his age, "being such a one as Paul the aged" (Philemon 9). And so with Peter: "when thou shalt be old ..." The full divine thought would be reached in him; there was no suggestion of age weakening him. So his second letter seems to express the vigour of old age. He seems to be brighter at the end than at any time. He refers to the mount of transfiguration as involving "the excellent glory". I thought it was worth while to go over that ground. We are all getting older, the young ones too, and it is well to have this before us, that although ageing we might be renewed and be maintained in freshness to the end.

The passage in Titus is, as we said, the general reference to the great renewing power -- the Holy Spirit -- who was so abundantly present at Pentecost, and who, as Paul says, has been "shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour".

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Rem. In the last death recorded in detail in the first book of the Bible, that of Jacob, we have an example of one who was brighter at the end than during his whole life.

Ques. Do we not see at the end of Malachi what God thinks of these features of freshness in contrast to what had grown old?

J.T. We see that at the end of Malachi, and at the end of various periods of the testimony, such as at the ends of the lives of Jacob, Moses, David. The Lord has in mind that our dispensation shall not grow old and disappear, but, as is suggested in the expression "the Spirit and the bride", be maintained in a state of freshness. The bride brings out in a striking manner the thought of freshness. Reference is made to "the bride, the Lamb's wife" The wife represents rather the side of patient endurance in suffering; she is the Lamb's wife, which refers to Him in His sufferings, but the bride represents the other side of the position and implies vigour and freshness of affection.

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THE RIGHTS OF GOD ON THE EARTH

Genesis 11:9; Zechariah 6:4,5; Joshua 3:11; Zechariah 4:14

I propose to speak of God's rights on the earth, and to show how they are asserted. In our first scripture these rights are only asserted in a limited way; it was simply in the dispersion or scattering of the human race over the face of the earth. The earth was God's, and He could use it in this way to decentralise the whole race. Their centralisation in Shinar was against God; their thought was to be independent. They said: "Come on, let us build ourselves a city and a tower, the top of which may reach to the heavens; and let us make ourselves a name, lest we be scattered over the face of the whole earth". They were thinking of their own name, and not of God's, showing they were eliminating Him from their calculations. And what they sought to prevent, God caused; they said, "Lest we be scattered over the face of the whole earth", and the passage says, "Jehovah scattered them thence over the face of the whole earth".

Thus God operates in men against Satan. In scattering them over the face of the whole earth, Jehovah had no thought of destroying them; it was a governmental act of mercy with the object of saving man from the effects of his own folly, and according to Galatians the blessing of Abraham came upon them in this dispersion. We who are in the western part of the earth are now participating in the blessing of Abraham which has come upon the nations. The race became divided into nations, and God recognises this later, setting up a nation of His own in the midst of them. God had set the bounds of all the nations, and set up Israel in the midst of them with a view to all coming into blessing according to God's own mind and arrangement. The

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nations were to be governed through Israel, but Israel failing in this position, God set up four empires. These empires -- Babylonish, Medo-Persian, Greek and Roman -- were set up in order to maintain order among the nations. God had His testimony in view in this. These empires became, as it were, His agents to maintain order; and we today, this very day, are benefiting from this provision of God.

"These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth". These four spirits of the heavens, spoken of in the second scripture, refer to the four empires that we have alluded to. They are not viewed as against God; on the contrary, they are said to be "the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth". The apostle Paul recognises this in saying that "the powers that be are ordained of God" (Romans 13:1). They are to be so regarded by us and prayed for; they are a provision of God in view of His testimony. He did not set up these monarchies because He wished the gentiles to be glorified. They are purely provisional and will pass away. They existed one after another in view, as has been remarked, of God's testimony. Apart from them there could only be chaos politically, and such chaos would naturally hinder the testimony going forth. Their office therefore was to maintain order on the earth.

The first monarch was evidently converted, Nebuchadnezzar; hence, these four spirits of the heavens had an excellent start from God, and, under the ordering of God, Nebuchadnezzar's great minister, Daniel, was a prophet of God, and through him in a peculiar way we get light from God as to these monarchies and the service they were to have. They were to serve Him as the four spirits of the heavens, Jehovah being viewed as "the Lord of all the earth".

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The book of Daniel therefore becomes of immense importance to us; it outlines the history of these monarchies, giving their character generally as beasts, some of them of peculiar ferocity. But however ferocious or cruel any of them might have been, they still retain the character of the spirits of the heavens. The Roman system was recognised by the Lord Himself, for He said to Pilate: "Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above" (John 19:11). Pilate himself was a man of the meanest character, and he executed the authority of Rome in Jerusalem, that is the authority of the worst of the four monarchies. The Roman system is that under which we are now; it is broken up into kingdoms, but it is about to take its primary character as an empire.. But whatever its history and the character of its Caesars from time to time, it is still one of the spirits of the heavens, and, such as it is, it affords, in a general way, liberty for the gospel to go forth. Hence, we are, as christians, to be subject to these powers, viewing them not as against us, but as for us. God overrules in all they do, for the furtherance of the testimony. What has been remarked as to these four monarchies ought to be observed by all christians, for we are enjoined to pray for them "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty" (1 Timothy 2:2).

The scriptures in Joshua and Zechariah 4 will enable us to see by the Lord's help how the testimony has been presented under these circumstances.

It will be observed that in each of these scriptures God is presented as Lord of all the earth. He used His rights over the earth to scatter the race, as we see in Genesis 11, having in mind to present the gospel to men as divided up into nations, as the Lord says: "Go ... and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father,

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and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19). Then, as remarked, He has these four spirits standing before Him so as to maintain order and liberty of action for the service of God. Hence the apostles, under the Roman empire, moved about from place to place and preached Christ. Paul says that "from Jerusalem, and in a circuit round to Illyricum" he had "fully preached the glad tidings of the Christ" (Romans 15:19).

In Joshua we have typically what was presented in testimony, that is, "the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth". It is in this character that Paul presented the testimony of God. The ark of the covenant passing over Jordan is a type of Christ. As risen from among the dead, Christ was the great subject of the testimony of the gospel, as we see in the Acts. He was not only risen, but had ascended to heaven, and the Spirit having been sent down from heaven, the testimony as to Christ was carried on to the whole world. This was God's way of testifying to His kindness and love to man. In scattering the race at Shinar, He had this in mind, to show His love to man according to what is stated in 1 Timothy 2:5,6: "God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony to be rendered in its own times".

All we have been saying as to these provisional things enters into that verse; God had provided them in view of the testimony being rendered in its own times. Daniel had been told, in answer to his own enquiry as to the time required to bring in the righteousness of the ages, and to anoint the holy of holies, that it would be seventy weeks (Daniel 9:24 - 27). But the time for the proclamation of the glad tidings comes in parenthetically, and these gentile empires were to subserve this service to mankind. So the gospel, according to Paul, was preached

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in the whole creation (Colossians 1:23), and what a gospel! The ark of the covenant here is "of the Lord of all the earth", meaning that God is asserting His rights now in grace over all the earth, and this is to be our attitude. We are, therefore, to be free from national feeling, to be in accord with God who has shown His kindness and love to men. Hence our meetings for prayer are to be of that character. God's house is "a house of prayer for all the nations" (Mark 11:17), and God expects us to be in the spirit of that in our prayers. He makes us joyful in His house of prayer; the kindness and love of God in our hearts will make us glad too.

The passage in Joshua shows the character of the testimony presented by the apostles. It was a question of Christ's power over death, and what a testimony that is today in the atmosphere of war amongst the nations! How stimulating and liberating too to think of the Lord Jesus entering into the greatest possible conflict, not against any nation or any section of the human race, but on behalf of the whole race, to overthrow Satan, man's greatest enemy, and to annul death which was Satan's greatest weapon against man! God has risen up with majesty to proclaim, by the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ, liberty to the whole race. That is surely something to attract our hearts, delivering us from the narrowness of mere national feeling which inevitably results in cruelty; national feeling goes that length, whereas God has risen up in majesty, in the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ, to proclaim liberty to all the race. It is in this way that He is asserting His rights as Lord over all the earth at this time.

The passage in Zechariah adds the needed complement to the ark of the covenant, namely the Holy Spirit, who is seen typically in that passage in the two sons of oil. "These are the two sons of oil,

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that stand before the Lord of the whole earth". The ark of the covenant is the Person of Christ presented in the gospel objectively. The Spirit refers to what is here on earth now in view of the proclamation of the gospel. He is typified here in the two sons of oil, two being suggestive of complete spiritual power for testimony on behalf of Him who is Lord of all the earth. The Spirit is here on behalf of man also; Peter says that the gospel was preached by the Spirit sent down from heaven (1 Peter 1:12). "Sons of oil" would allude to what is developed in man, for it is by men that the Spirit bears witness to men. The Spirit is the necessary adjunct to what the ark represents.

So these sons of oil refer to the Spirit of God come down from heaven, and as here, having firsthand knowledge of everything here below as well as in heaven. Thus, from this point of view the testimony is perfect. It is the testimony of grace, and refers to God's rights on the earth. God's rights will soon be asserted in a different way, for His grace has been turned "into lasciviousness" (Jude 4). The history of the race is developing into open apostasy. When that apostasy is completed, the whole of christianity will be discarded, for the Antichrist will take the position of head of everything, both religiously and politically; that is a terrible contemplation, and it is now imminent. Then God will assert His rights as Lord of all the earth in a different way from what He is doing now, for the Lord Jesus will come down and set His right foot on the sea, and the left upon the earth, and cry with a loud voice as a lion roars; He will lift up His right hand to the heaven and swear that there shall be no longer delay (Revelation 10). These verses indicate a divine attitude different from what we have been speaking of. The Angel is Christ, and He will take possession of the sea and land, that

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is, the whole earth. Revelation 19 shows Him coming out in a military way with the armies of heaven following Him, and the beast and false prophet are taken alive and cast into the lake of fire. Such is the exceptional way in which God will assert His rights against evil. The saints should have all this in their minds; but, in order that we should understand clearly that God has not yet altered His attitude towards mankind, Christ in His address to the Laodiceans says that He has sat down with the Father in His throne. The Father's throne is the throne of grace, and God looks for us to be in sympathy with that, and thus to be entirely above mere national feeling and sentiment.

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THE RESOURCES OF THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY IN VIEW OF CONTINUANCE (1)

Acts 14:23, 20:28 - 30

J.T. What is in mind is to show how each local assembly, while recognising the general fellowship, is to be self-contained, as it were. In the passage read in Acts 14, the apostles are said to have "chosen them elders in each assembly". In chapter 20 it is said that the Holy Spirit had set certain "as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God". In order to understand these verses, it will be necessary to refer to certain passages in chapter 13 and those that follow, which contemplate assembly material. In sending out Barnabas and Saul, the Spirit had not only the blessing of the gospel in mind, but the formation of the assembly.

Before they were sent out, they had been engaged together in the assembly for a whole year, teaching the saints at Antioch: "And so it was with them that for a whole year they were gathered together in the assembly, and taught a large crowd" (chapter 11:26). In the word, "gathered together in assembly", the word 'assembly' refers to the saints being formed as the assembly of God. The large crowd would gradually become reduced, and formed into an assembly; so that we read in chapter 13 of "the assembly which was there"; that is, it had been formed. In it there were certain prophets and teachers, the names of whom are given; and it says, "they were ministering to the Lord and fasting"; that is, in the assembly at Antioch the service of God was proceeding, so that the Holy Spirit is free to ask for two servants. The Holy Spirit was operating there; conditions in the assembly at Antioch afforded Him this particular liberty, for where the Holy Spirit acts in this way, the conditions are suitable.

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The Lord had done His work through the gospel; we are told in chapter 11, that many "were added to the Lord", implying obedience. If there is subjection to the Lord, the Holy Spirit has liberty. The work of the Lord has been effective so as to give the Spirit this liberty; if the Holy Spirit has liberty to send out servants, it is because conditions in the assembly warrant it.

Evidently the Spirit had in mind to form other assemblies like Antioch; hence the facts relative to the service of Saul and Barnabas relate to assembly formation. There would be many assemblies like Antioch, so the word is often in the plural from this point onwards. It is said in chapter 16:5, "The assemblies therefore were confirmed in the faith, and increased in number every day". This is what was in mind in the selection of the elders spoken of in chapter 14; verse 23 says, "And having chosen them elders in each assembly, having prayed with fastings, they committed them to the Lord, on whom they had believed"; so that whilst general unity is implied between these assemblies, each one is self-contained, and this implies obviously that each person in the assembly takes up his part and responsibility in the assembly. The choice of elders has in view that, as each is in his place, there is authority to maintain divine principles governing the assembly. Elders represent the authority of Christ in the local company. There are no officially appointed elders today; yet the authority of Christ must be maintained in each local assembly. I wanted to make clear what is in mind here.

Ques. Is there a difference between an elder and an overseer?

J.T. Yes; an elder, of course, is a person of age, who has experience. In chapter 20 the same persons are called elders in verse 17, and overseers in verse 28, the first term referring to age and experience;

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and the other more to the actual office of oversight.

Ques. Experience in what? In the testimony of God here below, or in the assembly also?

J.T. The word 'elder' throughout Scripture alludes to age, on which a certain authority is based, but also to experience with God in His testimony. The position of elder in the Old Testament may be defined thus, and in the New Testament also; but in the assembly elders had an official place, being generally appointed, and certain conditions besides age being required.

Ques. Is there any connection with the expression "fathers" in John's epistle? "I have written to you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning"?

J.T. That is a purely family thought, but there would be a link between them, because they are fathers not only in age, but as knowing "Him that is from the beginning" (1 John 2:13).

Ques. Would there be a recognition of the elders today?

J.T. A man is what he is, and where normal conditions exist, if a man has the qualities of an elder, he will be recognised, and God will use him as such. Eldership is not a gift, it is an office for which certain conditions must be satisfied, as we have just seen.

Ques. You have said that now elders are not chosen as formerly, but should we not be concerned in heart to aspire to be overseers?

J.T. If any one aspires to exercise oversight, "he desires a good work". The verses that follow in 1 Timothy 3:2 - 7 would show that a young man might aspire to this service.

Rem. It does not say that he aspires to the position, but he aspires to do the work.

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J.T. Yes; and it is not aspiration to eldership, because that really implies experience and age; he aspires to oversight. Timothy himself would no doubt exercise this in Ephesus where he probably was when the letter was written to him. However, among the required conditions there is included that of being head of a family.

Ques. Would Revelation 4 express these conditions, age and experience, which you have spoken of?

J.T. They represent the thing fully. They are crowned elders, evidently suggesting they are worthy of the crown. Paul says to Timothy that the minister (or deacon) may purchase to himself a good degree in the exercise of deaconship (1 Timothy 3:13). This indicates that the service of deacons and elders in the hands of faithful men leads to promotion. I think that these twenty-four elders alluded to, being enthroned and crowned, would indicate that they had reached the climax in this service.

Ques. Is the "unfading crown of glory" of which Peter speaks, connected with the elders?

J.T. Precisely. It says in Revelation 4:4, "Round the throne, twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones twenty-four elders sitting, clothed with white garments; and on their heads golden crowns". It is a very complete presentation of this office. Comparing the number twenty-four with its use in the end of 1 Chronicles, there is the suggestion of love in activity. It is not a hard and fast rule, but such as would be representative of God in Christ -- Christ apprehended in sonship -- for under the inauguration of this number twenty-four in the service of God, we have not only David, on the throne, but Solomon with him on the throne. That suggests not only authority, but also affection flowing out from the father and the son on the throne together. Hence the rule would be benign; it is the influence

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that flows out from the father and the son. It is what marks the present dispensation -- the Son is sitting with the Father in His throne. The service of God being ordered under the number twenty-four in the end of 1 Chronicles, would imply that those serving as elders would be under the Lord's immediate direction. Twelve is a very divisible number, and twenty-four is the double of that, as if the Lord has full liberty to dispose of us at His pleasure. This would imply that the rule of eldership is to take on the character that arises from such circumstances. So we are told that the elders that rule well, deserve double honour (1 Timothy 5:17).

Ques. Could it not be said that Stephen purchased to himself a "good degree"? His name means "crown".

J.T. A very good example. All this ought to affect us in our local gatherings. Eldership would in this gracious way require adherence to the principles which are given to rule in the assembly.

Another important thing indicated in these chapters in Acts is the state of the saints. The first convert from the service of Barnabas and Saul was the deputy of the island of Cyprus, the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. He is said to be an intelligent man, a very important suggestion at the beginning of this missionary work, for the formation of an assembly requires intelligent men. Therefore it is said: "Then the proconsul seeing what had happened, believed, being amazed at the teaching of the Lord" (Acts 13:12). Being an intelligent man from the divine standpoint, he values the doctrine of the Lord. Notice that it is not the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. We noticed that the Holy Spirit sent out these missionaries. The assembly at Antioch being in subjection to the Lord, the Lord had done His work. But now, new assemblies are in mind, and the converts through the gospel are to be subject

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to the Lord. This same principle came out in Saul himself. As he was converted he asked the Lord what he should do, and the Lord told him to go into the city and it would be told him what he must do. The apostle Paul would not forget this; he would keep before his converts the necessity of coming under the authority of the Lord. We shall become rebellious and disregard divine principles, unless this lays hold of us in our youth.

Ques. Is that why he says, "Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things" (2 Timothy 2:7)?

J.T. That is a word for us all, especially young men, to read the Scriptures assiduously, and then consider them, and in particular ask the Lord, and He will give us "understanding in all things".

Ques. Would the confession of Jesus as Lord convey the thought that there is submission to Him?

J.T. Conversion, as we speak of it, as the gospel is presented to us, implies that there is subjection. The gospel is "for obedience of faith among all the nations" (Romans 1:5,6). I believe the main cause of so much weakness among us is because we do not take that in; subjection goes with the gospel. Hence some do not receive the Holy Spirit immediately. In Ephesians 1:13 we see that the Holy Spirit is given after we have received the word of the truth, the glad tidings of our salvation. What is to be observed is "the word of the truth", that enters into "the glad tidings of your salvation". The truth implies that Christ is Lord, and this requires obedience and general adjustment. Hence the facts of Paul's conversion are basic. He asked the Lord what he should do; he recognised the Lord. He says, 'What shall I do, Lord?'; and the Lord says, "Rise up and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do" (Acts 9:6), and this meant, of course, that he would be taught by the brethren

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at Damascus. Thus he would learn that he must be subject not only to the Lord, but also to the brethren. The service of elders was then to operate at Damascus. The Lord qualified Ananias to exercise this service towards Saul. Ananias says: "The Lord has sent me, Jesus that appeared to thee in the way". He had sent Ananias to Saul, and now Ananias exercises a measure of authority over the new convert. Evidently Saul was slow to be baptised, but Ananias says, "Why lingerest thou?" So it is with many young people; they say they are converted, but they are not subject to the brethren.

Ques. Have you in mind that the general condition in the assembly is that of subjection; the young being subject to the elder, and all to one another?

J.T. It is because that principle is disregarded that so many young christians are not happy, not in fellowship, and sometimes, not even baptised. An elder, or anyone morally able to exercise authority over them, may say to them: Why are you not baptised? Then he may rightly ask: Why are you not breaking bread? Many think it is optional, whether I do, or do not; but whatever the Lord requires of me is not optional for me to do or not; it is imperative that I should do it. It is imperative that I should be baptised, as in Paul's case, and also be in fellowship. Why should those who call themselves christians sit at the back and refuse to avail themselves of the Lord's supper? I was in Bronac some years ago, and there were nearly as many sitting at the back, not breaking bread, as those breaking bread. Ananias said to Saul, "Arise and get baptised"; and it is equally pertinent to say: Why are you not partaking of the Lord's supper when He has asked you to do it?

Ques. Could it be said that such persons are manifesting disobedience in the face of the remembrance of the obedience of the Lord Jesus?

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J.T. Certainly.

Rem. There are the two sides: they are not subject, and they miss the privilege.

J.T. Yes. Under the old economy, it is said, if one failed to keep the Passover, being clean, on the second month, he would be cut off (Numbers 9:13).

Rem. That is a serious statement.

J.T. At the present time there is a great deal of shallowness usually marked by independence and insubjection.

Ques. Would you say that it is the elders who should invite persons to be baptised and to break bread?

J.T. Anyone might make that suggestion.

Ques. Do we see in Acts 2,the principle of subjection when those who had heard the discourse of Peter asked: "What shall we do?" Then we see later in the chapter that they were added immediately.

J.T. And then it says: "they continued stedfastly [or persevered] in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers". So these three thousand that were converted that day proved that they were subject, in persevering in the apostles' doctrine -- the apostles represent the authority of Christ.

Rem. It speaks in Acts 5, of the Holy Spirit which God has given to those that obey Him (verse 32).

J.T. That helps us in proceeding with the evidences of material of assembly character in these chapters. The first is a man of intelligence and he recognises the doctrine of the Lord; it is not simply the doctrine that these new preachers had, but "the doctrine of the Lord". Then we find other features of this assembly material at the end of chapter 13. It is at Antioch of Pisidia. It says in the last verse, "the disciples were filled with joy and the Holy Spirit". In the first case, with the deputy, we have subjection to the Lord and His teaching. Now

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we have people or converts who are happy, full of joy. This is necessary if we are to have meetings that please God. We need subjection, but then we need a happy state in our souls and the Holy Spirit; as it says, "joy and the Holy Spirit".

Ques. In Luke 15 would you say that the younger son is truly converted, and he comes into a place of music and dancing?

J.T. Yes. Hence we should seek to be together in holy joy in our assembly meetings. This is not fleshly exuberance, but joy in the Holy Spirit. How delightful is the suggestion of an assembly like this!

Rem. Freshness is absolutely essential for a joyful atmosphere among the brethren.

J.T. Then we find a man who has faith (chapter 14:8): "And a certain man in Lystra, impotent in his feet, sat, being lame from his mother's womb, who had never walked. This man heard Paul speaking, who, fixing his eyes on him, and seeing that he had faith to be healed, said with a loud voice, Rise up straight upon thy feet: and he sprang up and walked". So now we have a man who can stand on his own feet as it were; and Paul discerned that he had faith, so that clearly he represents the feature of faith and manhood in assembly material.

Rem. It is not said that he held Paul; the man in chapter 3, held Peter and John.

J.T. The man in the third chapter represents a Jewish convert; it does not say he had never walked; he was lame from his mother's womb; such is the condition, however feeble, of what there had been in judaism. He obtains direct help from Peter, who takes him by the right hand. In what follows, he recognises the new fellowship, the apostles' fellowship; holding them by the hand would mean that he is in that, no longer in judaism. This man in chapter 14 represents more a gentile marked by faith. The gospel was "for obedience of faith among

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all the nations". This man therefore, would represent the element of faith, which is essential to the dispensation of God. In 1 Timothy 1:4, it is said that the dispensation of God is in faith. This man would enter into that; he is ready for it; rising, "he sprang up and walked". Paul had said, "Rise up straight upon thy feet", so that he would not be warped by adverse influences, not carried about by every wind of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14).

One can see in all this the material for the assembly as presented in variety. How essential now it is that the different parts should be held together. It says in chapter 14:21 - 23 that Paul and Barnabas "returned to Lystra, and Iconium, and Antioch, establishing the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to abide in the faith, and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God. And having chosen them elders in each assembly, having prayed with fastings, they committed them to the Lord, on whom they had believed". We can see what this material was to heaven, now set up in these local assemblies; how they should continue and be preserved.

Ques. Would verse 23 suggest that there was in these assemblies something balanced, like that which marked the man who stood up straight?

J.T. Yes. He will not cause any difficulty in the meeting; on the contrary, he has qualities for eldership; he will stand straight up in a moral sense in all the questions to be considered. He will not allow false doctrine, or false principles, or bad conduct.

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THE RESOURCES OF THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY IN VIEW OF CONTINUANCE (2)

Ephesians 4:1 - 16; Acts 19:1 - 7

J.T. In Ephesians 4:16 we see the assembly working for itself "according to the working in its measure of each one part ... the increase of the body to its self-building up in love". The verses in the Acts are proposed because they speak of the Holy Spirit in relation to the assembly at Ephesus. The apostle Paul enquires from the disciples there, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" and they say, "We did not even hear if the Holy Spirit was come". The inference is plain that the apostle is stressing the possession of the Spirit by all those who form the assembly. There were twelve men, we are told, a significant number, and they all received the Holy Spirit evidently together. They were all believers when the apostle met them, but he was desirous of being sure that they had received the Holy Spirit, and their answer brings out that, although they had believed, they had not received the Holy Spirit.

The first chapter of Ephesians, to which we alluded this morning, refers to the reception of the Spirit; it says in verse 13, "in whom ye also have trusted, having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise". As there is some exercise concerning this matter in these parts, it is desired that the brethren who are in any way doubtful should be free to speak.

Ques. Why, in Acts 8, did the Samaritans who believed, not receive the Spirit, and here also those at Ephesus? They were believers. I think there are many believers in the Lord, who could not say they have received the Spirit.

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J.T. That is clearly attested in the verses read from Acts 19. The apostle's question says: "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" showing that, in his mind, they had believed.

Ques. Would it be just to go back a little from this, considering that Apollos, who had been at Ephesus, knew only the baptism of John? Perhaps he could not take them further than he was.

J.T. Yes, if he was their teacher. The fact is plainly stated by them that they had been baptised to the baptism of John; whether their instruction was from Apollos or others, that is a plain fact. They had believed, but had not the Holy Spirit; there are many in this state today; they are defective in their souls because of imperfect teaching. Then, even after these men had received the full gospel, the Holy Spirit did not come upon them immediately. Paul's laying on of hands preceded the gift of the Spirit, even after the truth had been presented to them; so that we cannot say that a believer, even if he has received the full gospel, receives the Holy Spirit automatically. If the Spirit comes automatically on the reception of the gospel, then there would have been no need for the laying on of hands here. The same remark applies to chapter 8; it is said in verses 5 - 8: "And Philip, going down to a city of Samaria, preached the Christ to them; and the crowds with one accord gave heed to the things spoken by Philip, when they heard him and saw the signs which he wrought. For from many who had unclean spirits they went out, crying with a loud voice; and many that were paralysed and lame were healed. And there was great joy in that city". Philip had preached the Christ, and they had believed with joy; yet in verses 14 - 17 it says: "And the apostles who were in Jerusalem, having heard that Samaria had received the word of God, sent to them Peter and John; who, having come down,

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prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for he was not yet fallen upon any of them, only they were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Spirit".

Before touching the details, I would like to ask all the brethren if they follow the scriptures we have read on this particular point, and whether they accept them in their full authority, or whether they are qualifying them in their minds? It is well to have a right foundation in our souls in regard of any subject, before we begin to build. The plain statements of Scripture must be received in their full force as to any subject, otherwise we have not a true foundation on which to build.

Ques. Would you say a word on the verse in chapter 2:38? "And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".

J.T. As already remarked this morning, the Holy Spirit is given to all them that obey God, but nowhere does Scripture say that the Holy Spirit is given instantly at the reception of the gospel. Here, Peter says, You "will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"; he does not say, you will immediately receive. We must bear in mind that God is the Giver, and that the Holy Spirit is the greatest gift. Surely we ought to leave it with Him as to how and when He gives it.

Ques. Is that why all the cases of the reception of the Spirit in the Acts are different?

J.T. That helps; it is a fact. The apostle Paul's question to the twelve men at Ephesus is most significant. It implies that, in principle, we should all be questioned, certainly by ourselves, as to whether we have received the Holy Spirit since we believed. The moral significance of the matter is very great, for the

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Lord knew what would ensue in the history of the assembly, and that false teachers would come in. So in encountering our brethren who are brought up in systems that are not according to God, we must bear in mind that they are pretty certain to have been damaged by defective teaching. Hence the example set by Paul for us in-this particular case in questioning disciples as to whether they have received the Holy Spirit. In the case of the Samaritans there can be no question that Philip preached the clear gospel -- he preached "the Christ", which is a very strong expression -- and that they had believed and were full of joy; and yet none of them had received the Holy Spirit. There is no suggestion in the chapter that they had not received the full gospel, whereas the acknowledgment on the part of those at Ephesus is that they had not even heard that the Holy Spirit was come; they were ignorant, they were imperfectly taught.

Ques. Those who have not yet received the Holy Spirit do not form part of the assembly, until they have received Him, do they?

J.T. They do not. Those who form the assembly have been baptised in the power of one Spirit into one body; and it is said of them that they have all been given to drink of one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13). The first is Christ's action; He baptises with the Holy Spirit. The second is our action -- we drink of one Spirit; the drinking alludes to John 4 and 7.

Ques. How does a soul know if it has received the Holy Spirit?

J.T. We have now to touch on subjective conditions; it refers to our state and God's operations in us. Faith, according to what we have in chapter 8, caused great joy -- faith by itself.

Ques. Who would communicate the joy?

J.T. It is the power of faith in the soul, but it has to be supported, or it will die out. The support to

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it is in the possession of the Spirit. The possession of the Spirit involves drinking, an act of mine. The Lord alludes to it in saying "... thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water", and that he who drank of this living water would "never thirst for ever". Drinking in this spiritual sense has the force of satisfaction.

Ques. Would you say that God is sovereign, and the Spirit is sovereign and comes only where there is a suitable state? It evidently was not so with the Samaritans, but the Spirit fell upon Cornelius.

J.T. I would not deny that the right conditions were at Samaria. I believe that there it was more a question of Jerusalem intervening; the authority rested in the apostles at Jerusalem. The Lord would have matters settled between Jerusalem and Samaria, for there had always been rivalries between them. He said to the Samaritan woman: "Salvation is of the Jews". The case of Samaria has therefore a dispensational significance which did not exist at Ephesus.

Ques. In the case of the Samaritans was there also the great question of the maintenance of unity, so that there might not be a national Samaritan church?

J.T. Yes, certainly; but the unjustified pretensions of Samaria, which appeared in the Lord's conversation with the Samaritan woman, had to be dissipated. Jerusalem had a special place in the purpose of God which Samaria had not. Therefore it is said that the apostles who were at Jerusalem sent to them Peter and John.

Ques. Was not the laying on of the hands of Peter and John the recognition of the brethren by the Samaritans?

J.T. Specially of "the apostles who were in Jerusalem" -- that is of importance, because it involves the authority of Christ, but where He had

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been pleased to place it for the moment. There is no such condition at Ephesus. The verses read from chapter 19 are more appropriate for our present enquiry than chapter 8. At Samaria the converts are not enquired of at all; it is simply that the Holy Spirit had not come upon them. "For he was not yet fallen upon any of them, only they were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus"; that is, they are actually baptised, and they are not questioned. It is a wider, more dispensational matter, that God would make clear. But in chapter 19 the individual persons who professed to be disciples are actually enquired of as to whether they had received the Holy Spirit since they had believed, and therefore it applies to the present time particularly.

Ques. Would you give some clear external evidence to show that one has received the Holy Spirit?

J.T. The truth is that we are in such darkened days, that the reality of the presence of the Holy Spirit is but little known by any even of those who believe the doctrine of it. They rely on the doctrine, rather than on their own experience as to it, so that the best way to answer the question is to look at the fruit of the Spirit mentioned in Galatians 5:22: "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, fidelity, meekness, self-control" -- nine different characters. Therefore I would say to anyone who hesitates as to his possession of the Spirit to look into this Scripture and see whether he is characterised by this "fruit" as it is called: "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, fidelity, meekness, self-control".

Ques. Is there not a difference between receiving the Holy Spirit, and being filled with the Spirit, as we find in several passages?

J.T. A very great difference. I do not know anybody who is filled with it, whereas in the early days, according to the facts mentioned in the Acts

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it was the general experience that they were filled with the Holy Spirit. I would say for the encouragement of young believers, that if they find that they love the brethren, and love to be in the company of the brethren, love to be in the meetings, that that is one evidence that they have the Spirit. And there is joy in the soul; it is a staying joy, not the initial joy of the convert. One who is depressed, disgruntled, and complaining -- if these things characterise him -- it is pretty certain he has not the Holy Spirit.

I suppose we have said enough in a general way; each one ought to enquire about this. We may now consider Ephesians 4 a little. Here christians are addressed and enjoined to endeavour to use "diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace". Then we have the basis of this unity in the threefold circle: first, the unity of the Spirit, as seen in the calling, as it says, "There is one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling"; that is relative to the body; all this implying that each one has the Spirit. The second is more public: "one Lord, one faith, one baptism". The third is more universal: "one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all". Then verse 7 shows that each one of us has been given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. All this has in mind verse 16, that is the ability in the local gathering in itself to build itself up in love. It has been observed and spoken of recently by brethren who move about that gatherings in rural districts all over the world tend, in general, to die out.

Ques. Why is that?

J.T. We want to get at it here. The economy under Paul implies assemblies, and each is furnished with what is needed for continuance. Elders, we noticed, were selected by the apostles in each assembly;

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but when we come to Ephesus, it is said that the elders in that assembly were set in it by the Holy Spirit (Acts 20:28). The apostles selected the elders, and, of course, they went away to other fields. But from the standpoint of Ephesus, the Holy Spirit set the elders in the midst of the assembly there, according to the facts we have been going over in chapter 19 and what is presented in this epistle. He not only set elders there in oversight, but He remained there Himself. That is in mind in this instruction as to unity, and that everyone in the assembly had received "grace according to the measure of the gift of the Christ". This brings up the question of our attendance at the meetings. Absentees in a locality weaken the whole position. Hence, in Acts 2, before the Holy Spirit came, we are told that the disciples "were all together in one place". That is a principle, that the working out of the Spirit's operation in a local assembly depends on the brethren being present. It is as all are present that He has full scope.

Ques. Would it be an encouragement to sisters to be present at the prayer meeting, to see that the last time Mary the Lord's mother is mentioned is at the prayer meeting?

J.T. It says in Acts 1:14, "These gave themselves all with one accord to continual prayer, with several women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren".

The inclusion of this section in this epistle is very striking. We have first each one receiving grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ, "until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ". That word 'all' in verse 13 is to be observed, and should admonish us all as to the weakening effect of absenting ourselves from the

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gatherings of the saints. Much could be said as to these gifts -- apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers -- but they are introduced here to this end, "for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ". Finally it says, "in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of that teaching which is in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematized error; but, holding the truth in love, we may grow up to him in all things, who is the head, the Christ: from whom the whole body, fitted together, and connected by every joint of supply" -- every part is involved -- "according to the working in its measure of each one part, works for itself the increase of the body to its self-building up in love". The local assembly -- and here the whole assembly -- is viewed as having within itself the means of edification and continuance in power.

Rem. However, an assembly in a locality has not the gifts named here.

J.T. The gifts are never local; they are set in the assembly as a whole.

Rem. An overseer is local; the gifts are for the whole assembly.

Ques. Would you not say that the Lord can give in each locality, perhaps in a limited way, what is necessary there?

J.T. The gifts are always available directly or indirectly. We have no apostles, no prophets, in the full sense as at the beginning, but still there is gift in the assembly, and the Spirit of God being here the ministry is spread abroad. The word given by any gift is carried abroad directly or indirectly, so that each local company gets the benefit of it. But then, each local company has the Holy Spirit; that is the point. The apostle says elsewhere, "Do ye

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not know that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16).

Rem. We are to be careful that national feeling does not prevent us getting the benefit of a gift that may be in another nation.

J.T. That is an important remark. We see how in the early days such as the saints at Thessalonica imitated the assemblies of Judaea, showing they were entirely free from national feeling.

The power of self-edification is what is to be noted. It involves that we are no longer babes. Each one is in his place, none is absent; each has grace from the Lord, and is part of the organism, so that it is self-edifying. If a member is not there, the organism is defective to that extent. Underlying this is the actual living presence of the Holy Spirit, and it is thus that we are admonished not to grieve the Holy Spirit.

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THE ASSEMBLY DIVINELY EMPLOYED (1)

Acts 18:1 - 11; 1 Corinthians 1:1 - 3; 1 Corinthians 10:31 - 33

J.T. At our two readings at Tence yesterday, we looked at verses in Acts 14 and 19 and in the epistle to the Ephesians, having in mind to show how the local assembly is furnished of God so as to be, as it were, self-sustaining, so that it should build itself up in love. Eldership was much dwelt upon.

What is in mind today is the assembly itself as a vessel here for God's service. The facts mentioned in the two epistles as to the work of God in Corinth show that the assembly is in mind from this point of view. No elders are mentioned; so that the aspect of the truth now to be considered contemplates particularly every person in the assembly. From the standpoint of the epistle to the Corinthians one least esteemed in the assembly is equal to the exercise of judgment; in addition to that which is before us the idea of judgment is very prominent in this epistle.

In the verses read in chapter 10, the assembly of God stands over against the Jews and gentiles. It is the public aspect that is in mind. Anyone in Corinth could have gone into the christian assembly, and, seeing the order and power of the prophetic word there, would have been affected. The assembly therefore in the city of Corinth had a great public position as representative of God -- that He dwelt there. Hence the epistle is addressed "to the assembly of God which is in Corinth", that is, what is of God, and representative of Him publicly in Corinth.

Ques. What are we to understand by the expression "those ... who are little esteemed"?

J.T. It would apply peculiarly to Corinth, because of a critical and divided condition there. Hence brothers and sisters might be underestimated on

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account of party feeling. He that is "little esteemed in the assembly" is not simply one of you who is not much esteemed, but one of the assembly (chapter 6:4). Where love prevails, we do not look at each other like that; we estimate each other as highly as possible. The teaching given as to the assembly has in mind that all those who compose it are dignified. One who said he was "less than the least" (Ephesians 3:8) of the saints would never regard anybody as less than himself. Thus we are enabled, as clothing the saints with the thoughts of love, to regard each of them as available for use. The general trend of the epistles is to urge that we clothe each other with thoughts of dignity and ability, never forgetting that each is in the assembly. Of course, we do not ignore the work of God, from which point of view there are different measures of growth, but love will clothe all the saints with dignity. Chapter 10 of the second epistle shows how unjustly Paul was criticised at Corinth.

Ques. The assembly is composed of all believers who have received the Spirit?

J.T. That came out yesterday, that no one is in the assembly properly, save as he has the Holy Spirit. Viewing the saints in this way, God says, "One man of you chaseth a thousand" (Joshua 23:10). The saints viewed only as come out of Egypt would be in the eyes of the Egyptians a poor lot; they had been slaves, but as before God they are "nobles" (Exodus 24:11). Thus, in habituating ourselves to regard each other in love, we shall find the means of settling every difficulty; difficulties arising among brethren ought to be settled among brethren.

It may be well to look a little at the verses read in Acts 18, so as to get a clear understanding of the epistles to the Corinthians. It will be observed that everything relative to the assembly at Corinth according to this chapter is spoken of as related to

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persons, those living and working in Corinth. The assembly in a place is composed normally of persons who are of the place. It is true that Aquila and Priscilla were not of Corinth; we are told where they came from, why they were there, and why they had left Rome; but they were none the less actual work-people in this city. Paul, the apostle, saw fit to join them in their industrial work. It would appear that the Spirit had in mind to work in relation to the rank and file of the people in the town, so that the great apostle himself with others worked amongst them, thus getting a first-hand knowledge of the people in the city. The Lord would confirm this in telling Paul in a vision that He had "much people in this city". Hence it is said that Paul "remained there a year and six months, teaching among them the word of God". This would imply that the assembly was in view, and should be instructed in the word of God -- the knowledge of His mind. The apostle preached the gospel, and so did Silvanus and Timotheus (2 Corinthians 1:19), but it is not so much the gospel here as "the word of God". So those who form the assembly are to be taught. It is not preaching but teaching; they are to be taught in the word of God. We shall not represent God in any locality, save as we are instructed as to His mind.

Ques. Would you make clear the difference between the presentation of the gospel, and the presentation of the word of God?

J.T. The gospel is in part, from a certain point of view, the word of God. It is said to be "the gospel of God ... concerning his Son" (Romans 1:1 - 3). At Ephesus, for instance, it was "the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation". But, in principle, the actual expression "the word of God" suggests the communication, of the thoughts of God in a general sense. It is said that Christ is the Word of God; He made known the mind of God amongst

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men. Paul and all the other servants preached the word of God. The expression that he taught the "word of God" would be general, inclusive of all that conveyed the mind of God; he not only preached it but he taught it. He had, however, to restrain himself at Corinth; because of their condition, he could not unfold to them "the hidden wisdom" of God (1 Corinthians 3:1,2).

Ques. It is the same thought as in Colossians 1:25: "To complete the word of God"?

J.T. Yes, the truth of the mystery completed it. The word of God viewed in its different features is finally completed.

Ques. How would the word of God be taught in contrast with the preaching of the gospel?

J.T. It is what we are trying to do now in this meeting. Paul was a preacher, but he was also "a teacher of the nations", as he said (1 Timothy 2:7). He announced the glad tidings among the nations: God "was pleased to reveal his Son in me, that I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations" (Galatians 1:16), but then he also said in his first letter to Timothy that he was appointed "a teacher of the nations". The Lord's commission to the twelve in the end of Matthew enters into this; He says in verse 19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you".

Ques. Is that borne out by the fact that in the gospel of Matthew, where the assembly is presented, it is said that the Lord taught and preached and healed (chapter 4:23)?

J.T. Teaching is a gift. It is therefore not simply communicating facts, but it is accompanied by power to present the truth with authority. It is to be observed that it is said here: "teaching ... the word

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of God"; that is the point we are on now, and it is in view of rendering those who form the assembly capable of representing God. What is before us is to show that it is not a question of eldership now, but the assembly itself in authority as representative of Christ. We may have opportunity this afternoon to consider more fully what the assembly is employed for as down here, but the fact itself is what we should keep clearly in view in this meeting.

Ques. Why do we see that assemblies are more or less placed in towns?

J.T. They would be more representative in towns than they would be in country districts. It is grace really, because God is setting up His testimony where men are, as if He would say: I am not approaching mankind through the back door, but through the front door, towns being, in general, centres of human instruction and knowledge.

Ques. You think we ought to be governed by God's thought in this matter if we have the choice of a meeting place?

J.T. We certainly ought to pitch our tent in relation to the tabernacle. Persons whose callings are in the town do not add to their advantages by living in the suburbs. If we consider that it is the assembly of God in Corinth, we want to make it as strong as possible for His testimony by our presence.

Ques. If the brethren are in the country parts, should they go into town?

J.T. Where is your calling, your work? Where your calling is that is where you should render testimony and remain; that is where you are to be representative of God.

Ques. You have said yesterday that meetings tend to die out in the country parts: why is that?

J.T. That is a warning; not that I think so of the meetings in this district, but certainly it is a matter to be kept in mind; it is universal in its

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bearing. The thought would therefore be, as to these gatherings in rural districts, to make them as strong as possible -- all the saints attending the meetings with interest.

This is the dignified way in which the apostle addresses in this epistle these people of whom the Lord Jesus told him (Acts 18:10), "To the assembly of God which is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints" -- they are sanctified in Christ Jesus and saints by divine calling. We ought all to notice the dignity of that address.

Ques. Could it be said that this is God's thought in regard to all the saints, although they may be feeble, because at Corinth there were many things to adjust?

J.T. The assembly is viewed in its dignity abstractly, we might say. For an illustration of that we read in chapter 5:7, "Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, according as ye are unleavened" -- not simply that you should be unleavened, but because "ye are" which is abstract.

Ques. Is it a principle in ministry to speak of the saints in the most dignified way, so as to stimulate them?

J.T. However little they may be in keeping with the thoughts of God, it is important to clothe the saints abstractly with them as the subjects of the work of God. And in a certain sense that applies even to the preaching of the gospel to men. The chapter previous to the one read in the Acts shows how the apostle addresses the Athenians as one of them; "In him"; he said, referring to God, "we live and move and exist; as also some of the poets amongst you have said, For we are also his offspring". That shows that in preaching the gospel to men we should recognise the measure in which they are related to God; so that we do not at the outset stress the idea of their sinfulness, though that must

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be presented at the proper time, but that they are God's creation. So the Lord said to the disciples "Go into all the world" -- which is the moral side -- and "preach the glad tidings to all the creation" -- this last expression alluding to man as belonging to God. Correspondingly, in seeking to serve the saints, we have more power if we clothe them with the thoughts of God.

Ques. The Lord has helped us here these latter years as to the preaching of the gospel. We may remember perhaps that in our youth there was much mention of sinners and hell.

J.T. Added to that, we have the thought of the elect. In preaching the gospel you not only think of men as God's creatures but that some of them are His elect. Paul says: "For this cause I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Timothy 2:10).

Ques. How are we to answer anyone who asks, How may I know that I am one of the elect?

J.T. The Lord said: "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he has sent" (John 6:29). If I am a believer on Christ, that is an incontestable proof that I am one of them. Another solemn thing that we have to bear in mind is that some of our hearers may never be saved. Paul said, "If also our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those that are lost" (2 Corinthians 4:3) -- not that shall be, but are lost.

In closing, chapter 5 brings out what the assembly is as able to execute judgment; as already remarked, elders and deacons are not mentioned in this epistle; they are contemplated among the Philippians and Ephesians, but not in these letters, evidently to bring out what the assembly is in its own dignity and power as representative of God. So that, according

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to Matthew 18, if one does not hear or listen to the assembly, he is to be regarded as a heathen man or publican. Thus we can see that, as gathered in the light of the assembly, normally we can count on the Lord to support us in dealing with every evil that may come up. The apostle here says: "For I, as absent in body but present in spirit" -- notice he says he is present at Corinth in spirit -- "have already judged as present, to deliver, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (ye and my spirit being gathered together, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ), him that has so wrought this: to deliver him, I say, being such, to Satan for destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". And in the last verse he says: "Remove the wicked person from amongst yourselves". The first passage read shows how the Lord is with us; His power is with us in exercising discipline; and the last verse shows that it is put upon us to remove evil from our midst.

Ques. Is it not remarkable that Paul brings in the abstract view of the saints -- "according as ye are unleavened" -- in the chapter for the exercise of judgment?

J.T. Very remarkable. I think it contemplates that there was in general a state of self-judgment there; however few there were at least some who corresponded with this in the sense of self-judgment. There is the thought of the actual power of the Lord Jesus present by the Spirit. But there is also the moral side, that in doing this we are supported by the sense that we are doing what is right.

Ques. Does the exercise of discipline such as we have here have in view a double object: to maintain holiness in the assembly, and also to recover those disciplined?

J.T. Clearly so -- "that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".

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Ques. What is the "day of the Lord Jesus"?

J.T. It is His public appearing when things are all faced and judged.

Ques. What is to be understood by the "destruction of the flesh"?

J.T. It would mean that the flesh comes to an end in the man's mind; that he has come to Romans 7 -- God's judgment of it. The second letter shows that this took place almost immediately in the man who had been excommunicated at Corinth.

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THE ASSEMBLY DIVINELY EMPLOYED (2)

1 Corinthians 11:17 - 22; 1 Corinthians 12:28 - 31; 1 Corinthians 14:23 - 31; 2 Corinthians 8:23,24

What is before us today is the assembly as representative of God here. The scriptures read indicate various uses made of it as a vessel here. The first use is for the celebration of the Lord's supper, as in chapter 11. The second use to be called attention to is that it is the vessel in which God has set the gifts for His use here. The third is its use in a local setting for ministry, specially prophetic ministry, that is in chapter 14. Then in the second epistle, in chapter 8, it is seen as used for collections for the benefit of the saints. There are other uses that we may call attention to.

Brethren will all be helped if they examine these epistles in connection with the frequent mention of the word 'assembly' in them. In the epistle to the Ephesians, the assembly is viewed generally in its heavenly relationships and services; there indeed it is said to be the habitation of God by the Spirit down here, but that depends on its heavenly relationships. In the epistle to the Corinthians it is viewed generally as subdivided; for example, "the assembly of God which is in Corinth". The word 'assemblies' is used in that connection. There is only one assembly properly; that is told us in Ephesians. In the eternal state and in the millennium it will be seen in the heavenly city as one. So the word 'assemblies' as seen in these epistles and elsewhere refers to the subdivisions of the assembly in various localities throughout the world; and the apostle makes it a point that all these assemblies should be characterised by the same principles and customs.

Now it may be pointed out that the greatest service of the assembly is that in it the Lord's supper is celebrated, and out of the Lord's supper develops

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the great and general service of God. According to Acts 2 the Lord's supper was celebrated in houses, but in this chapter (1 Corinthians 11), it is said to be celebrated "in assembly", the saints gathered in assembly.

Ques. Would you explain the expression, "come together in assembly"?

J.T. It is an allusion to what is concrete; that is, the saints, in this village or in any place, are assembled in this attitude of mind; not simply that they are in a particular room together, but that they are in this attitude of mind -- "in assembly".

Ques. Does this take place in connection with the breaking of bread, prayer, edification and prophecy?

J.T. In this sense, the expression is used only in relation to the Lord's supper. (It says in chapter 14:35, "it is a shame for a woman to speak in assembly"; it is the same expression, but that is only an allusion to the conduct as we are together in assembly). Chapter 11:18 has a very specific force: "For first, when ye come together in assembly, I hear there exist divisions among you". Verse 20 is in view of that condition: "When ye come therefore together into one place, it is not to eat the Lord's supper"; the inference is plain that coming together in assembly refers specially to the breaking of bread.

Ques. To the exclusion of the other meetings?

J.T. Certainly: it does not refer to meetings for prayer, nor to meetings such as this. The meetings that would specially come under the head of service in the assembly would be the Lord's supper, which is the main thought, and meetings for discipline.

Ques. Do you make a distinction between being gathered together "in assembly", and being gathered together in an attitude that is proper to the assembly?

J.T. The expression "in assembly" has no article in the original, which means that we are in assembly characteristically, and the comments the apostle makes on their conduct in it indicate that normally

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it was for the celebration of the Lord's supper and nothing else. Acts 20:7 would confirm this: "We being assembled to break bread". That would not cover a meeting such as the present. "In assembly" we are together with dignity, with the light and intelligence in our souls of what the assembly is for God's use here.

Ques. Then, in the Supper, the one loaf would speak to us of what the assembly is?

J.T. Yes; and the expression "in assembly" directs the mind back to the Lord's words, "My assembly". It has a great dignity as first pronounced by the Lord, in Matthew 16. Thus when we come together in assembly according to this verse, it is to eat the Lord's supper, and the attitude of mind towards the Lord and towards each other is governed by this verse. "The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of the Christ? Because we, being many, are one loaf, one body; for we all partake of that one loaf" (1 Corinthians 10:16,17). The allusion there is to the body, not exactly the body of Christ, but the saints viewed as one body. That of course implies that we respect one another, and love one another, and are intelligent as to the organism in which we are. These remarks will indicate how great and how glorious in a moral way is this position, as we come together in assembly to celebrate the Lord's supper.

Rem. The Supper seems to be of great importance to the heart of Christ, and should be to us, seeing it is the first feature of the service of the assembly, as you point out.

J.T. What follows on this Godward is not outlined in this epistle; we have it elsewhere, and it rightly continues the service after the celebration of the Lord's supper. It is well perhaps to remind all that it is 'the dominical supper' as in the French translation, so that all our hymns and thanksgivings in

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relation to the Supper should be addressed to the Lord, for it is the Lord's supper -- not God's supper, nor the Father's supper. According to John's account of the Lord's closing discourses, attached evidently to the institution of the Lord's supper, there is a great deal said of the Father. This epistle says,. "To us there is one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him" (chapter 8:6). The Lord's closing discourses would indicate that both He and we are for the Father. This epistle further says, "There is ... one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him". So that the position in assembly, after the Supper and all connected with it is finished, is that God is before us; we are here for God, for the Father, by the Lord Jesus Christ; we have been created by Him for this position; He is on our side and introduces us to God, to the Father.

Rem. You say that in the breaking of bread it is the Lord who is before us, and thanksgivings are directed to Him; afterwards the character of the meeting changes: the Lord leads us to the Father.

J.T. Yes, after place has been given to the expression of marital affections between Christ and the assembly. But in many of our meetings brethren fail to recognise this, and after the Father has been worshipped they return to the worship of the Son, which is confusion.

Rem. It is easier for us to remain on the work of Christ, than to enter into our privileges as priests.

Ques. When gathered for the Supper we have before us the Lord's supper, and we address the Lord, but in the cup of the new covenant do we not have occasion to address God, according to the principle of the new covenant?

J.T. Both the bread and the cup, being the Lord's supper, are connected with Him, and I think that in speaking of them, we should address Him. He is Mediator of the new covenant and, as the Lord's

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supper is before us, in referring to the Supper we should address Him. The new covenant is in Christ's blood. It is to be connected with Him; He says, "The new covenant in my blood", the blood of Christ is more than the new covenant. When the time comes for us to speak to God, of course we can speak to Him about the new covenant; we can speak to Him about His love in all its fulness, and that would include the new covenant, without specifically mentioning it.

Ques. Would it be right to bring in the Lord's name in our addresses to the Father, to speak of Him as the One who has brought us to the Father?

J.T. It is surely quite right to speak to the Father about the Son. In the passage already quoted, it is said that we are for the Father; then it is said that everything is by the Lord, and we by Him, so that we are there alongside of Christ; He has brought us in before the Father. The more one considers the wording in which the Lord's supper is couched in Scripture, the more one is impressed with the fact that it is exclusively in relation to Christ. The wording in 1 Corinthians 11 differs from all other presentations of it, whether in the gospels, or elsewhere; it is the Lord's own wording delivered to His great servant Paul, who is the apostle to the gentiles, to whom was given the mystery of the assembly; so that all that is said elsewhere about the Lord's supper should be considered in the light of this particular presentation of it.

Rem. Paul does not say he received it from the apostles, but from the Lord.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. In the bread we see the body of Christ; but is it His body of flesh, or His mystic body, the assembly, or indeed both?

J.T. It is both. It is first His body in which He died; He said, "This is my body, which is for you".

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But it is also symbolical of the saints as being one body, "we, being many, are one loaf, one body" (1 Corinthians 10:17).

Ques. Would what the apostle says, "not distinguishing the body", be connected with what is being said now?

J.T. That is what made their conduct so solemn; it is said in verse 27, "So that whosoever shall eat the bread, or drink of the cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty in respect of the body and of the blood of the Lord".

This matter of the worship of God is particularly stressed by the Lord at the present time. The Lord in speaking to the woman of Samaria called attention to the worship of God and the worship of the Father; He says the Father seeks such as His worshippers; and if the Lord is free amongst us as His Supper is celebrated, and after place has been given to affectionate relations between Him and the assembly, He will lead in this direction.

Ques. As to the second part of the meeting of which we have spoken, is it not important that the spiritual state should be up to the level of the position?

J.T. Yes. It was after the woman had been searched by the Lord and had called Him a prophet -- "I see that thou art a prophet" -- that she brought in the question of worship. Hence prophetic ministry is calculated to bring about a suitable state for the worship of God. It is the one point that the woman makes to the men, that the Lord Jesus had told her all things that she had ever done. So then, as searched by this prophetic ministry, she begins to speak of worship. The Lord does not turn the subject, He admits of it, and proceeds to speak to her of worship. The state suitable for worship amongst the brethren being not much in evidence, there is the need for prophetic ministry. In chapter

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14:23 we read, "If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place ... if all prophesy, and some unbeliever or simple person come in, he is convicted of all, he is judged of all; the secrets of his heart are manifested; and thus, falling upon his face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you". This confirms what has been said with regard to the woman of Samaria -- that prophetic ministry leads to the worship of God. The epistle to the Philippians confirms what is needed in regard of state: "for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and boast in Christ Jesus, and do not trust in flesh" (chapter 3:3).

Ques. Would it be necessary to come together specially for such ministry?

J.T. As you will be aware, brethren in almost every country now are adopting what is seen in these verses in chapter 14, and the Lord is helping us to a better state -- the state needed for the service of God.

Rem. We should like a few words on what you understand by prophetic ministry.

J.T. It is spoken of here as that which edifies the assembly -- the apostle says that they were to covet spiritual manifestations, "but rather that ye may prophesy", and later on he says: "He that prophesies edifies the assembly" (chapter 14:4). It evidently brings God in in a moral way before the conscience, as illustrated in what the apostle says here, that the secrets of a man's heart "are manifested; and thus, falling upon his face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you". It would require several meetings to go over the ground of what we are speaking of now.

Ques. We spoke just now of a certain weakness in our meetings for the breaking of bread; might not the reason be in the absence of such meetings?

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Ques. Would such a meeting stand related to the Lord's day or to the week?

J.T. You will find that, rather than on the Lord's day, they are more necessary during the week. The Lord's day affords better conditions and richer sentiments, but the need for this, that is the whole assembly coming together in one place, is greater during the week. If the brethren at Valence think it well, we might look into this subject, God willing, on Tuesday.

The connection between the subject in John 4 and these verses in 1 Corinthians 14 is very striking, and if it is linked on with the Lord's discourses related in John 13, 14, 15, 16, it will become clearer and clearer that the Father is to come into evidence as soon as the Lord's supper and what is in relation to it is over. The Lord said to Peter that unless he allowed Him to wash his feet, he could have no part with Him -- "thou hast not part with me". Part with Christ is opened up in John 13 to John 17. Chapter 17, where the Lord speaks to His Father, shows the climax of the instruction; He says: "Father, as to those whom thou hast given me, I desire that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory which thou hast given me, for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world" (verse 24).

In connection with the passages read in 1 Corinthians 12, it is important to bear in mind that God has set the gifts in the assembly; and the suggestion is that they are not so many individuals, but that they are in a particular setting. The dignity and support of the assembly, and the liberty implied in this, greatly augment the exercise of gift. Thus God has a wonderful institution, so to speak, in this world -- He has the assembly, and He has set the gifts there. "God has set" -- the verb is in the middle voice in Greek, and it means that He has set them there for

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Himself. Like heavenly orbs, the gifts are placed in the assembly to render glory to God who placed them there for His own glory. God has them for Himself as representative, so to speak. There is in the English version of the New Translation [earlier editions] a note on the form of the word 'set' which is important as to what the gifts are as set in this environment -- 'the form' (middle) of the verb here has a peculiar reflexive force, causing the thing done to return on to the doer, throwing back the glory of it on him, 'having done it for himself'. It is a matter here, not of Christ's glory, but of what reflects back to God.

There is just one other thought, in chapter 8 of the second epistle, I wanted to call attention to. You will note the recurrence of the word 'assemblies'. The messengers carrying the bounty are said to be "messengers of assemblies, Christ's glory".

Rem. It was not a case of Paul wanting to get money out of them, but of his desiring the saints to understand the great privilege of acting thus, that is, for Christ's glory.

Ques. Would it be right to say that every material thing, done in love in the assembly, may contribute to what is spiritual?

J.T. Take chapter 6 of the first epistle, to which we alluded this morning; if a man, least esteemed in the assembly, in settling matters of this life has God with him in it, he will be the gainer by it. In his judgment of the matter, he carries the dignity of the assembly.

As to this matter of collections, the apostle touches on it in the first letter, and enlarges on it in the second letter. It might be questioned, Why should all this come in in the letters to the Corinthians and not to the Ephesians, for there was more love with the latter? It would appear, from the facts mentioned in both letters, that the gifts of the saints,

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of which the poor had need at that time, would help the Corinthian saints. In view of the giving, they were to lay aside at home, as God had prospered them, on the first day of the week. That injunction directs the minds of the saints from their business to what is more spiritual. God has prospered them in their business, and now, on the first day of the week, they are laying a certain amount aside; that will help them spiritually.

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THE GOSPEL AS EXPRESSING THE WILL OF GOD

Genesis 22:10 - 14; Job 37:7 - 10; Luke 19:28 - 36

These scriptures are selected because they speak in figure of persons or things held by the will of God. First, in the book of Genesis, Christ Himself is held, as typified in the ram caught in the thicket by its horns; secondly, in the book of Job, the hand of every man is sealed, and by the breath of God ice is given, so that the breadth of the waters is straitened -- figurative of Christ held in death according to the will of God; and, thirdly, the colt is tied up, symbolising young men and young women, who are held under God by their parents until the Lord Jesus demands them. The Lord has rights over each, as I hope to show from the first two scriptures, for He has given Himself a ransom for all, and hence has a right to all. He has a creative right to all, and also a redemptive right.

In the first scripture we have our Lord Jesus prefigured as held by the will of God; that is, the ram was held by its horns, and was offered up instead of Isaac. In the garden of Gethsemane our Lord was held in this way. He had a right in His own Person to return to heaven, even as Man here on earth; but from the point of view before us now, He was held here, and entered into death to accomplish the will of God. He spoke to His Father in the garden; He said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee: take away this cup from me; but not what I will, but what thou wilt" (Mark 14:36). Hence He was held by the will of God. Faith sees this. We are told that Abraham "lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold, behind was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns; and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt-offering instead of his son". And hence he "called the name

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of that place Jehovah-jireh". So we also may call this place by the same name; it is a place where God provides for the needs of our souls.

We are told in the Scriptures that "the Father has sent the Son as Saviour of the world" (1 John 4:14). Christ was divinely provided as Sacrifice for us, and we read: "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10). The Lord Jesus, the Son, was in perfect accord with the Father in this great work. But in Gethsemane He was facing death immediately, with the forsaking of God which it would involve, and hence He shrank from it rightly; but He said, "not my will, but thine be done" (Luke 22:42). So He went on to the cross; He was nailed to it; He was forsaken there; with a loud voice He cried, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?". The answer is -- our sins. He was bearing them there; it was the will of God. And having borne them, He cried again with a loud voice, and gave up His spirit. The work of atonement, from that point of view, was completed. He was forsaken of God, and He entered into death as the judgment of God. He was "made sin for us, that we might become God's righteousness in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

But His burial also was necessary, hence it is said: "By the breath of God ice is given". That verse evidently alludes to the power of death in which Christ was held. In His Person He could not be held by it, but the will of God required that He should be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Believers ought to understand that redemption is not only from our sins, but from sin and the power of death. So the gospel announces that He has annulled death; the annulling of death involved that He lay in it three days and three nights, but He could not be held by its power; God raised Him from the dead, "having loosed the pains

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of death" (Acts 2:24). Hence our sins are dealt with, and sin in the flesh is dealt with, and death itself is vanquished to the glory of God. As Scripture triumphantly says, He "was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification" (Romans 4:25). The resurrection involved that He had been actually in the tomb. The angel at the grave says to the women: "Come, see the place where the Lord lay" (Matthew 28:6). He lay there three days and three nights, and this is included in His death and His atoning sufferings. But at the end, He was raised again for our justification, and He is now presented in the gospel as "a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood" (Romans 3:25). The work is all the carrying out of the will of God, completed in infinite perfection. Hence "the gospel of God" is "concerning his Son ... Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 1:3). It is said that He "died for our sins, according to the scriptures; and ... was buried; and ... was raised the third day, according to the scriptures" (1 Corinthians 15:3,4), so that there is nothing for the sinner to do for his salvation; God does it all! What a magnificent platform the gospel is on! The sinner comes into all the benefits of the work of Christ on the principle of faith. As the Lord said of the woman in Simon the Pharisee's house: "Her sins, which are many, are forgiven" -- that was for everybody to hear; but to herself He said: "Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Luke 7:50).

In Job 37:7 we read: "He sealeth up the hand of every man; that all men may know his work". Thus God would tie up our hands, if we think we can do anything to save ourselves. We have come to it that "salvation is of the Lord", as Jonah said, who, having been "down to the bottoms of the mountains", was vomited by the fish on the dry land. If there are any here who are depending on their works -- what they have done, or are doing,

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or are going to do -- for the salvation of their souls, let them give it up for ever! God, in asserting His will, is asserting also His love, for His will has in view that we should be saved. He has Himself provided the sacrifice in the Person of Christ, so that forgiveness of sins is preached now, and "all that believe are justified from all things" (Acts 13:39). Let us take it in definitely into our souls.

Then in verse 8 we are told: "The wild beast goeth into its lair, and they remain in their dens". Thus it is that God prevents the enemy from hindering us as we seek the benefit of the work of Christ. We all, who are believers, know how Satan has sought to prevent us, and for a time succeeded in preventing us from believing in Christ. But this verse says "the wild beast goeth into its lair, and they remain in their dens". Thus God limits the power of the enemy. Young believers do well to consider this.

We read in the first chapter of this book that Satan also came when the sons of God came before Jehovah, and the facts stated show that God had been guarding Job. Indeed, as we confess with our mouths Jesus as Lord, and believe in our hearts that God has raised Him from among the dead, we are saved even from the power of the enemy (Romans 10:9). Salvation is not only from the judgment of God, but also from the world and from the devil. As to the world, it is said that our Lord Jesus Christ "gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world" (Galatians 1:4). Then, as to the devil, we are told that Christ has annulled "him who has the might of death, that is, the devil", and has "set free all those who through fear of death through the whole of their life were subject to bondage" (Hebrews 2:14,15). So that, as the believer resists the devil, the devil flees from him; as it were, he goes into his lair and remains there. This is the power available to those who believe.

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Then in verse 9 of our chapter we are told, "From the chamber of the south cometh the whirlwind, and cold from the winds of the north", and in verse 11: "with plentiful moisture he loadeth the thick clouds, his light dispels the cloud". Then in verse 17 we read of the south wind, "Thy garments become warm when he quieteth the earth by the south wind". The believer is thus wonderfully provided for according to this chapter. God balances the clouds for him, and moreover his garments become warm when God quieteth the earth by the south wind. In this remarkable book, we see how God acts for the believer, how He acts in view of our salvation through Christ who did His will. We see how He gives us power to resist the devil, having annulled him, and how He acts in our circumstances in His love -- balancing our clouds, and making our clothes warm by His south wind. We feel something of the south wind in this meeting today. Thus such a meeting is the best place for one who seeks to believe on the Lord; everything is in his favour; divine love is operating in the hearts of the brethren here; it makes our clothes warm. So that the word to such would be: Why not join in with those who are so blessed? The will of God requires it, and if any refuse to bow to His will now, they will have to bow to it in eternal judgment. Disobedience to the gospel, according to the second epistle to the Thessalonians, is placed as a chief reason for eternal judgment; those who disobey the gospel are punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. Now God is in infinite favour towards men; the apostle Paul said he was an ambassador for Christ, beseeching men to be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:20).

Then the Lord has need of you. In our third scripture we have the colt. "And it came to pass as he drew near to Bethphage and Bethany at the

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mountain called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, saying, Go into the village over against you, in which ye will find, on entering it, a colt tied up, on which no child of man ever sat at any time: loose it and lead it here". This colt, as we said at the beginning, represents a young man or a young woman held under the authority of God by some hand; it may be a child of believing parents who exercise their influence over him to keep him from the world and the devil. The colt is held in a wonderful environment; Jerusalem here represents the great thoughts of God -- the city of the great king; the King Himself was here too, approaching Jerusalem. Bethany, Bethphage and the mount of Olives also all speak of advantageous environment. These places, villages, towns, do not represent the theatres of this world, the places of amusement, or even the places of recreation; but they represent spiritual thoughts. A young person brought up thus, and held in this position, is now the object of Christ's solicitation. The Lord is here today, as really as He was then, saying: I have need of him. We are told that the two disciples were sent, and "as they were loosing the colt, its masters said to them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, Because the Lord has need of it. And they led it to Jesus".

Let us extend the thought to a father, a mother; they are surely masters of their child; their authority over him, however, is in love, and, if they are believers, they have held him in love until the Lord puts in His claim. Doubtless parents have brought their children here now, and they are ready to let the Lord put in His claim. The masters readily allowed the disciples to loose the colt, when told that the Lord had need of it. And now the Lord is here, putting in His claim; He is saying, The Lord has need of it. Can any young person here resist or refuse the Lord's claim as it is put to him in this

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meeting? It says, "They led it to Jesus". How readily the saints here, specially those of us who are serving, would help any young person, so as to lead him to Jesus. Henceforth the colt was at the Lord's service: "having cast their own garments on the colt, they put Jesus on it". The Lord sat on this colt; He was carried by it into Jerusalem, as the prophet Zechariah had foretold.

Now a word to the young believers here who are, as we say, in fellowship. The Lord has need of each. It is not to carry Him in a literal way, but to carry the testimony. We are drawing near to the end of this wonderful dispensation, and the Lord would enlist every young person to carry the testimony triumphantly to the end. The Lord, in this passage, is touchingly presented in testimony: "Blessed the King that comes in the name of the Lord"; and then, "Peace in heaven, and glory in the highest". May God bless these words to us all!

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PROPHETIC MINISTRY

1 Corinthians 14:23 - 33; John 4:15 - 27; 1 Samuel 19:19 - 24

J.T. Our subject at this time, according to the arrangement with the brethren here, is prophetic ministry, a subject which has become of great interest among the brethren universally, and as these meetings for prophetic ministry are not generally held in this country, it is thought the Lord would help at this time as to this matter.

Our first scripture is the formal injunction or commandment, as we might say, as to it. Verse 37 shows, that this epistle is, as it were, a commandment by itself: "If any one thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment". Therefore in this passage, "If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place ..." the 'if' does not mean that the matter is optional. The verse implies that brethren have meetings of this kind, and the instruction is that the whole assembly in a city or town should come together in one place for the purpose.

Ques. Can it be said that such a meeting is "in assembly"?

J.T. The wording is different from chapter 11:18: "When ye come together in assembly". The wording is different in that the article is found in chapter 14:23, meaning that all the saints are there, and are viewed as the whole assembly. Thus in a city where there are some subdivisions of the assembly (more than one meeting), the meeting for prophetic ministry is not limited to one of the subdivisions. A subdivision may come together "in assembly" to partake of the Lord's supper. But here it is "the whole assembly come together in one place".

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Ques. Brothers and sisters?

J.T. Yes.

Rem. Otherwise it would not be the assembly.

J.T. You can see the advantage of such a meeting if taken up according to this scripture.

Rem. If I understand it properly, it is a special occasion which God uses for speaking to the assembly.

J.T. The whole chapter deals with the subject of prophetic ministry, and these verses present it in a very concrete way. The effect of the ministry is described: "If all prophesy, and some unbeliever or simple person come in, he is convicted of all, he is judged of all; the secrets of his heart are manifested; and thus, falling upon his face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you". We may not have such a striking result in it today, but the principle is there that prophetic ministry searches our hearts.

Rem. The first book of Samuel would confirm that; Saul fell on his face.

J.T. It is doubtful that he was searched really, that he was convicted of sin. Subsequent facts show that he was not really affected; he only came under the power of the ministry for the moment. But in 1 Corinthians 14 we have an example of genuine conviction by prophetic ministry. In our times we all need this in a general way.

Ques. Why is the man said to be an unbeliever, a simple person?

J.T. It is "some unbeliever or simple person", to show what God had in the city of Corinth. The Lord had told Paul that He had "much people in this city" (Acts 18:10). And the assembly having been formed, this advantage was there -- it became in that way the vessel in God's hands for securing these people. Not only were they convicted and converted, as we say, but they became worshippers. The need in our

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times in this respect is very great. All about us there are our brethren who are more or less in darkness, and every effort should be put forth to cause them to judge themselves, so that they might be delivered and become worshippers.

Ques. Is it that God has some special communications to give, and without such meetings these communications will be missed?

J.T. Whenever we give God an opportunity according to His direction, He never fails to come in; as we give Him the opportunity for speaking prophetically, He certainly will come in for us. Thus in the beginning of the chapter we have: "Follow after love, and be emulous of spiritual manifestations, but rather that ye may prophesy". As brethren in a locality become sensible of the need of prophecy, they will desire to have ability to prophesy. Thus God will have vessels for the purpose.

Ques. It is thought in general that our meetings have a private character, but is it supposed here that the meeting is public?

J.T. The first and second epistles to the Corinthians contemplate the public service of the assembly. To use an illustration, you might find in the city of Corinth on a certain street a Jewish synagogue, a heathen temple, and a christian assembly. We can see therefore the great advantage for God, as well as for men, of the public assembly as contemplated in our chapter. So that in view of securing our brethren and others, we can see the wisdom of having suitable meeting-rooms such as any christian or any person would feel liberty to enter.

Rem. There is no reason therefore why we should seek an out-of-the-way place for a meeting room.

J.T. What is of God should be available to men; there should be nothing to prejudice it. That applies not only for the preaching of the gospel, but for meetings for prophetic ministry as well.

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Ques. To hold such a meeting is it necessary that the whole assembly should meet?

J.T. That is what is stated: "If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place".

Ques. Is it possible that the whole assembly should meet together, because there is an "if" here?

J.T. I do not think it is an optional "if"; it is really an injunction. According to verse 37 it is imperative, for the whole epistle is a commandment.

Ques. If at this meeting some brothers and sisters are missing, what would be the result?

J.T. They would be losers, and at the same time they would witness to their unfaithfulness. Also, the whole position becomes relatively weakened thereby. Acts 2:1 tells us that the first assembly meeting had all the saints in it: "they were all together in one place". That is the foundational thought of the assembly, and we are enjoined in Hebrews 10:25 not to forsake "the assembling of ourselves together".

Ques. Do we see in Thomas in John 20 what may be missed by staying away from the meeting?

J.T. That is a striking illustration of what we are saying. Anna, who represents prophetic ministry, did not fail to be present on a great occasion in the temple. "And there was a prophetess, Anna, daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher, who was far advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity, and herself a widow up to eighty-four years; who did not depart from the temple, serving night and day with fastings and prayers". She came in in the same hour.

Ques. Could it be said that the fact of anyone's absence from the meetings does not hinder the blessings of those who are there?

J.T. It is true that every absentee necessarily weakens the position, but God is ready to serve those who are there. We read in 2 Chronicles 35 of Josiah's passover. It was a great passover, but it

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was for "all Judah and Israel that were present"; those who were not present missed a great favour and necessarily weakened the position.

Ques. Do you think we are apt to limit this matter of Thomas to the Lord's day?

J.T. His absence is mentioned as covering all meetings of the saints. Where was he? He is said to have been called Didymus, that is, a twin. Is it a suggestion that he was with his twin brother, following the course of nature? Many of us are kept away from the meetings by natural affections and considerations. He was a true believer, but really below the level of christianity, for he said he would not believe unless he saw. The Lord says: "Blessed they who have not seen and have believed" (John 20:29). Anyone influenced by natural considerations is below the level of christianity, and depends on natural or seen things.

Ques. Is it right to say that prophetic ministry immediately lays bare all the thoughts of the heart which keep us away from the meetings?

J.T. Yes, I am sure that is so, and other secrets of the heart, harmful to us, are manifested also.

We have no time now to go into the details of the service, so we may look at John 4. The passage read shows how prophetic ministry, corresponding with what we have read in Corinthians, leads to worship. When the woman asks for the living water, the Lord says: "Go, call thy husband, and come here", and this leads to her exposure. She says: "I have not a husband. Jesus says to her, Thou hast well said, I have not a husband; for thou hast had five husbands, and he whom now thou hast is not thy husband; this thou hast spoken truly". The subsequent facts show that this part of the conversation was prophetic as exposing her to herself. In speaking to the men she says: "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done". This

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statement shows that she has judged herself as to her history morally, and hence she is morally qualified to raise the question of prophecy with the Lord. She says: "I see that thou art a prophet". The Lord tells her later that He is the Christ, but she does not refer to that in speaking to the men; that is to say, she is morally entitled to speak of Christ in the gospel, because she has judged herself, and she refers to this disclosure of herself rather than to what He said to her as to Himself. She is, as it were, morally entitled to speak about worship. The Lord admits her qualification to speak about worship, for He immediately proceeds also to speak about it.

Ques. Are these two thoughts brought together in Philippians 3:3: "For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and boast in Christ Jesus, and do not trust in flesh"?

J.T. That verse refers to public worship. It is a word for public worship; the apostle shows that the true worshippers have judged the flesh. The Lord has been helping the saints generally as to the service of God, and there can be no doubt that the revival of this subject of prophetic ministry is to the end that we should be true worshippers, that is, worshippers who judge themselves habitually, having no confidence in the flesh. They worship by the Spirit of God instead of by fleshly ordinances and ritual. The Lord here tells the woman that this is the kind of worshippers that the Father seeks. One can understand that if the Father is seeking something, He will endeavour to get it. He "seeks" -- it is a present thing. At the end of the previous chapter, it is said that the Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand, and among these "all things" is that the Lord Jesus provides the worshippers. It is said in 1 Corinthians 8:6, "To us there is one God, the Father, of whom all things,

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and we for him"; and then "and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him"; that is, He has brought us into existence, as we may say, spiritually. Hence this woman represents the work of Christ to the end that there should be worshippers.

Ques. Do you think that worship is introduced by prophetic ministry?

J.T. Well, you can see how it affected this woman. It is not only the thought of worship that is brought in by prophetic ministry, but also the state necessary for worship. As in the fellowship, and having part publicly in the service of God, we need to judge ourselves habitually. Hence, "let a man examine himself, and so let him eat" (1 Corinthians 11:28).

Ques. Do you not think that the old things which we have always done are a great hindrance: "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain"? We remain in that position.

J.T. This woman was governed by common religious sentiment, national sentiment. The Lord disabuses her mind of these errors. And that is the kind of ministry that is needed now, in that many of our brethren are held in national religious settings.

The passage in Samuel calls attention to prophetic ministry actually proceeding. It shows how this ministry intended to defeat Satan in his workings against the testimony. In verse 20 it says: "Then Saul sent messengers to take David; and they saw a company of prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as president over them; and the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied"; that is, the service was going on and the ministers of Saul saw it. If there is no prophetic ministry, no meeting for prophetic ministry in a town, of course it is not to be seen. Here "They saw a company of prophets prophesying, and Samuel

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standing as president over them". I hope the brethren will all notice this passage.

Ques. What are we to understand today by "Samuel standing as president over them"?

J.T. That it is not a mere religious college; the service is going on under the direction of Christ.

Ques. Samuel would be the type of Christ?

J.T. Quite so. What a wonderful sight for the enemy! And so as seeing it, they came under the power of it. Then Saul sent other messengers, and the same thing happened. Finally he came himself, and he also came under the power of the prophetic word. He and his emissaries came three times under the power of this wonderful ministry. The solemn thing is that Saul himself is thoroughly exposed; he is naked, which means that he was not genuinely affected inwardly. The closing question is: "Is Saul also among the prophets?". It became a proverb, showing that all unreality is exposed.

Ques. Could it be said that in Saul fallen to the earth naked we have an illustration of a local difficulty completely solved?

J.T. The evil is completely exposed.

Rem. The word 'naked' in the Scriptures is a terrible word.

J.T. Paul speaks of not being found naked. "If indeed being also clothed we shall not be found naked" (2 Corinthians 5:3), which would mean that I am professedly clothed, but at the end I am exposed and shown to be unreal. The word of God causes all things to be naked in His sight.

Ques. Have we not today the prophetic lamp illuminating the whole position? We can see all things as God sees them.

J.T. Quite so. This is the description of the word of God; it is "living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow

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and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart", so that "all things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do" (Hebrews 4:12,13).

Ques. Could it not be said that if in any locality such a meeting is begun, God may by the Spirit use a brother who has never said anything hitherto?

J.T. We have illustrations of instrumentalities God uses: we read of an "ass speaking with man's voice" forbidding "the folly of the prophet" (2 Peter 2:16). Then we have God speaking through Balaam, the false prophet. How much more is He ready to use one of His children in a small meeting!

The prophets are to speak one by one, not more than three. The profuseness of provision in the prophetic sense is seen in Peter's address in Acts 2:17: "And it shall be in the last days, saith God, that I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your elders shall dream with dreams; yea, even upon my bondmen and upon my bondwomen in those days will I pour out of my Spirit, and they shall prophesy". This passage shows how God had this prophetic ministry in mind in giving the Spirit.

Rem. In this same book we have an evangelist who has four daughters who prophesy.

J.T. Other scriptures, of course, forbid sisters to prophesy publicly; but the fact that they are mentioned certainly ought to bring the thing home to everyone in the meeting. And the instruction in Corinthians, commanding that women should have their heads covered, certainly suggests the need of subjection in this respect. It is said that Philip's daughters prophesied; they served in this manner, which shows the spiritual power that there was in those days.

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SIGNS IN ISRAEL

Isaiah 8:18; Zechariah 3:8 - 10; Ezekiel 24:15 - 27

J.T. These scriptures speak of signs. They contemplate the saints or the disciples as signs, as the children which God has given to Christ, as priests, and thirdly in Ezekiel, as servants. Ezekiel was to be a sign as unselfish. His wife died, and he was not to weep nor to mourn for her, although she was the delight of his eyes. It says in verse 24: "Thus Ezekiel shall be unto you a sign".

It will be observed that in Isaiah 8 the Lord says: "Behold, I and the children that Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from Jehovah of hosts, who dwelleth in mount Zion". Thus the Lord Jesus is seen as a father, the disciples being given to Him as children. This is in view of Jehovah hiding His face from the house of Jacob, as we see in verse 17. It is clear that the disciples were to be like Him, like Christ, to be witnesses in this way -- signs and wonders in Israel. They are seen together: "I and the children that Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel".

The New Testament records instances of the Lord taking up this attitude with the disciples. A notable one is in John 13:33 - 35: "Children, yet a little while I am with you ... A new commandment I give to you, that ye love one another, as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves". The same recognition of the disciples by the Lord is seen in John 21:5: "Children, have ye anything to eat?". This chapter contemplates the saints as somewhat out of the way, but not too far off to disqualify them from this precious relation with Christ. It is a chapter of partial departure and

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of complete recovery. It is to be feared that many are somewhat in the position of these disciples as seen in the earlier verses. There are Simon Peter, Thomas called Didymus, Nathaniel, the sons of Zebedee, and two others of His disciples -- a party, as we may call them, not exactly against the truth, but still turned away from the right path for the moment. The party is headed by Peter and Thomas, whose recent histories showed a state that needed to be judged thoroughly. Peter had denied the Lord, and had been restored in measure, but not completely. Thomas had been absent from the great occasion of the Lord's presence amongst the saints after His resurrection, and it would appear that he had not wholly judged his neglect. The others are evidently led by these two. So it is, if one is diverted in any way, he is apt to influence others; he may not mean to oppose the Lord or His people, but still he tends to divert others. The state of the disciples here is not sufficiently bad to disqualify them from this precious relation of children. Thus we have the term applied to the saints as having love amongst themselves; at least, the Lord contemplates them as having in due time love amongst themselves. As we have love amongst ourselves we are characteristically His children, and signs and wonders in Israel; and this is a characteristic that belongs properly to every local company.

Rem. The passages which we have read seem to show that we have two sorts of signs, one in a collective setting, a company, and the other in an individual setting.

J.T. Yes; any of them would be a wonder and a sign too, for the disciples were not known; they were not understood. As we walk in the light of our calling, taking on the character of Christ, we are not understood. "For this reason the world knows us not, because it knew him not" (1 John 3:1).

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Ques. Have we this thought in Simeon's prophecy in Luke, "a sign spoken against"?

J.T. Quite so. If we are known in this town as others are, there is nothing distinctive about us.

Rem. The Lord uses the words 'sons' and 'daughters' in the gospel.

J.T. Yes, wherever the family appellation is used, it corresponds with what we are saying. For instance, the woman in Luke 8 fell down and told all the truth, and the Lord calls her "daughter" -- different from any ordinary woman.

Ques. What is the difference between children and sons being brought to glory? (Hebrews 2:10).

J.T. We have in John, of course, the "children of God" -- those born of Him -- as well as those addressed, as we have been remarking, by the Lord as "children". John never calls us sons, save once in Revelation 21:7. Sons are of God; they are more developed in Paul's line of the truth. They refer, of course, to the same persons. Sons belong to heaven. Children are representative of God on earth; so that in chapter 1 the children of God are recognised as those who receive Christ, who are born "not of blood nor of flesh's will nor of man's will, but of God". They are marked as receiving Christ and as believing on His name. John contemplates them as scattered abroad in chapter 11; that is very important at the present time, because many of our brethren, the children of God, are scattered abroad, and Christ is said to have died in order to gather them together into one. What is in mind is the saints viewed as given to Christ by God, and how He and they are for signs and for wonders.

Ques. Could you say that Peter at the end of John's gospel is not characteristically like the Lord, because the Lord is spoken of as the sent One, and Peter says, "I go"?

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J.T. That is a very good reference. Peter said, "I go a fishing". You might say there is not any harm in that. But he was not sent a fishing then; he had been called from that occupation to become a fisher of men.

Ques. Do we in this passage touch on our subject this morning? By the sign which the Lord performs He brings Peter to recognise that he is naked.

J.T. Yes, like Saul; but he had a covering and soon put it on, showing he was not far away. He was restorable, and thoroughly reinstated in the service in which he had been put by the Lord at the beginning, as an apostle. But it might be said: What harm is there in fishing? So it is that brothers and sisters often go as far as they can, so as not to be excluded from fellowship. They take on marriage links not in the Lord. I think the deflection here covers that sort of thing. "I go" -- it is their will, not God's will, nor the Lord's will. The secret of this failure is seen in the fact, as our brother remarked, that "I go a fishing" whereas the Lord was sent, and the whole principle of christianity is being sent.

Rem. It is a contrast to what Peter had heard from the Lord: "As the Father has commanded me, thus I do. Rise up, let us go hence" (John 14:31).

J.T. So in the case of the blind man in John 9; what governed his whole position was that he was sent. That man would never argue that a thing was right, unless it were according to the Lord's will. The brethren universally are harassed with this attitude of the persons entering into relations that are not "in the Lord". They argue: What harm is there? But is it "in the Lord"?

Ques. Would it be right to say that John, although having gone fishing with Peter, yet being more spiritual, was a means for the recovery of Peter?

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J.T. Yes; he says, "It is the Lord". That brings up the whole question as to what we are going on with; are we doing everything "in the Lord"?

Rem. The result of doing my own will produces nothing whatever; "that night" they "took nothing".

J.T. Night, nakedness and nothing! What disaster, if the Lord had not come in! But He did come in, for they had not ceased being children.

Rem. In 1 Samuel 15:23 Samuel says to Saul: "Rebellion is as the sin of divination, and selfwill is as iniquity and idolatry".

J.T. Saul attempted to say that he had done everything right, but he had spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, and he had also spared the king of Amalek, when he had been told to destroy all.

Ques. How do you view the association you speak of, namely, that we are the children, and we are signs and wonders?

J.T. We are applying it to the present time. The point being made now is concerning brothers and sisters going as far away as possible, yet with the hope of keeping themselves in the fellowship.

Ques. Would you say what you consider to be a marriage "in the Lord"?

J.T. Where both are submissive to the Lord, and taking the Lord into the matter; both in fellowship, in a word.

Ques. Do you make anything of disparity of age?

J.T. Who can tell how far that can go? There is no scripture that I know of, fixing the relation between the respective ages of persons who marry. Of course, there is the question of which is suitable: "love ... does not behave in an unseemly manner" (1 Corinthians 13:5).

Ques. Does the prophetic word give us definite instructions as to what is "in the Lord"?

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J.T. That is what it would stress; it is a question of obedience.

Rem. The law and the prophets go together.

J.T. The law is the expression of the rights of God. The prophets would present the patience of God, and would through their ministry maintain the rights of God, and would, if necessary, bring back the people to the law.

Ques. If we have not the prophetic word, might it be that we are guilty because we have missed the instructions which it gives?

J.T. Yes. A low state of things in a meeting may be largely because there is no prophetic ministry.

To return to this matter of marriage, latitude is allowed, both as to age, family relationships, and other things. But one principle must control, and that is: "in the Lord", "only in the Lord" (1 Corinthians 7:39).

Rem. A son of Levi and a daughter of Levi were Moses' parents.

J.T. That is one of the best illustrations you can get of marriage in the Lord, that is, in considering Levi as representing the testimony, which is justified by his subsequent place in the service of God.

Rem. It is undoubtedly good to be able to say "in the Lord" as to all the circumstances which we are called upon to face.

J.T. We cannot be in any circumstance that is not "in the Lord", that is, in the sense that His authority is owned in it.

Rem. I think we may link what we are having with what we saw this morning: "If any one thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment" (1 Corinthians 14:37).

J.T. Our second scripture contemplates priesthood. "Hear now, Joshua the high priest, thou and

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thy fellows that sit before thee -- for they are men of portent" (meaning, men to be observed as signs, or types) "for behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch". These scriptures, being in the prophets, bear on the subject we dealt with this morning. We are now in the presence of what relates to the service of God in remnant times. In this paragraph the Lord is foreshadowed as the High Priest, and then as the Branch; so that the sign here would refer to the service of God in which we are privileged to be engaged, especially on the first day of the week. The previous verse says: "Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts; and I will give thee a place to walk among these that stand by". Now the end of verse 5 says: "the Angel of Jehovah stood by". It is a question of what God is doing and of those who are standing by. Those who love Him stand by His work. We shall get a place among those that stand by.

Ques. Does that refer to the heavenly place that the saints have in the present dispensation?

J.T. Exactly. We are standing by, if we are in the light of the mind of God. God is carrying on a great work, and He would have us interested enough to stand by. But there is more than that: there is the High Priest and those who are standing before Him -- His companions.

Rem. John, standing by the cross of Jesus, was privileged to receive Mary to his own home as his mother, involving all the precious impressions that she had gathered in her own soul.

J.T. The women also were standing by the cross of Jesus -- a beautiful touch!

Ques. Could it be said that "Jehovah of hosts" indicates the power of which we have spoken?

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J.T. Quite so -- "Jehovah of hosts", in verses 9 and 10. The idea appears perhaps more in remnant times or days of small things than elsewhere. Hence Elisha asked the Lord to open the eyes of the young man to see the hosts. God would assure us in the things we are going on with at the present time, according to His will, that all His power is with us.

Rem. Horses and chariots of iron driven by men of flesh could not penetrate chariots of fire.

J.T. "The chariots of God are twenty thousand, thousands upon thousands; the Lord is among them" (Psalm 68:17).

Ques. Have we an illustration of the power of the Lord on our side, when Joshua is before Jericho, and lifting up his eyes he sees an angel who is the captain of Jehovah's army?

J.T. Quite so. I believe these verses in Zechariah point by the Spirit to our own times, the High Priest and His companions who sit before Him. The position here does not suggest great activity, but it suggests intelligence and certainty -- sitting. We have to admit the great want of spiritual energy, whether it be in the gospel or the service of God; but, while admitting this, we must not be drawn away by human activity. We are on sure ground, and hence we are restful in the service in which we are engaged. Then the Spirit proceeds immediately to the Branch, saying: "I will bring forth my servant the Branch". Current activity is largely dependent on human organisation and human provision, whereas Christ is brought in as the Branch, which means One who is wholly dependent on another. Then we have the idea of a stone, as it says: "For behold, the stone that I have laid before Joshua -- upon one stone are seven eyes". We have, therefore, the idea of permanency in the stone, and discernment in the seven eyes. Thus our position is as clear

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as noon, and as solid as "the earth which he hath founded for ever" (Psalm 78:69). So we are restful, and God says: "I will remove the iniquity of this land in one day". God will make a short work of it, but in the meantime those who are holding the position are signs, men of portent. The point is how restful we can be, the light of the assembly having come in. In a moment God will clear away the iniquity. It is mounting up on every hand -- apostasy and other wickedness -- but God will deal with it in a short time.

The third scripture refers to a servant, a person actively engaged in service, especially a prophet. In these circumstances the servant has to be different from other men; he has to deny natural feelings so as to be a sign; he must refuse natural feelings, so as to be a sign in a spiritual sense. His wife had just died, and, of course, in such circumstances an ordinary man would show grief. God says to him: "I take away from thee the desire of thine eyes with a stroke; yet thou shalt not mourn nor weep, neither shall thy tears run down. Sigh in silence, make no mourning for the dead; bind thy turban upon thee, and put thy sandals upon thy feet, and cover not the beard, and eat not the bread of men". Ezekiel goes on to say: "And I spoke unto the people in the morning; and at even my wife died. And I did in the morning as I was commanded". It is a remarkable denial of natural feelings because of divine requirements. So it says in verse 24: "Thus Ezekiel shall be unto you a sign". People would inquire: Why are you like this? The answer is: the word of God requires it.

Ques. Does this apply to the prophet of our own day?

J.T. He will hardly be one unless he is entirely subject to the will of God.

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Ques. Have we a sign of this kind in the man born blind of John 9? He was there that the works of God might be manifested in him.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Can we see in Ezekiel's sign that the service of God must not be interrupted by personal trials? In the morning he spoke.

J.T. What exercises he must have had! But he is ready for the severe discipline for the sake of the testimony. He said: "And I spoke unto the people in the morning; and at even my wife died. And I did in the morning as I was commanded" (verse 18); and again in verse 20 he spoke the word of Jehovah to the people. How pleasing he must have been to Jehovah at this time!

Rem. That would show that a prophet must not permit purely natural feelings to hinder the service of God.

J.T. He must deny himself and take up his cross daily, says the Lord.

Rem. "For this reason the world knows us not, because it knew him not". Would that bear on us as signs?

J.T. Quite so. The psalmist said: "I have been as a wonder unto many" (Psalm 71:7).

Ques. Do we see all this in the spirit of Paul, especially in his words to the Corinthians? In the second epistle, speaking of his sufferings, he says, "... so great a death".

J.T. A natural man would think Paul was a fool to take such a course, but he was a sign. He says: "We are fools for Christ's sake" (1 Corinthians 4:10).

Ques. Would it be just to think that in a meeting where the door is not open for prophetic ministry, the Lord may afflict a brother or sister in that meeting in order to speak to those there by means of a sign?

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J.T. Quite so. Because of bad behaviour in the assembly, many at Corinth were weak and sickly and many slept.

Rem. The little child laid in a manger was the sign for Israel.

J.T. Yes; that "Christ the Lord" was found in such circumstances, was a most solemn and exercising fact.

Ques. Does all this correspond with Luke 14 where, in order to be a disciple, everything has to be given up for Christ?

J.T. This word is addressed to the crowds (verse 25). The Lord did not want partisans; He only wanted those who were true disciples, who corresponded with Him in their character and position.

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THE INTERVENTION OF THE LORD TO SUPPORT HIS OWN

John 6:16 - 21; Joshua 5:13 - 15; Luke 24:33 - 43

These scriptures furnish examples of how the Lord comes in to support us as we move according to His mind. These illustrations of His service do not imply that He does not take the initiative Himself at times. Indeed, had God not moved towards us and wrought in us, we should never have moved towards Him. He has taken the initiative in all things with a view to the accomplishment of His own thoughts and our blessing; but, having enlightened us and brought us into subjection and into relationship with Himself, and having given us His Spirit, He looks for us to move according to the light He furnishes us. 1 John 1:7 tells us: "If we walk in the light as he [God] is in the light, we have fellowship with one another". Thus we do not need a commandment for everything we have to do; as God furnishes us light, we are to walk in it. In the prophets we read: "This is the way, walk ye in it" (Isaiah 30:21). To fail to walk in the way thus marked is self-will and lawlessness. On the other hand, as we take this way, God is with us in it.

Our scripture in John 6 illustrates how the disciples walked according to the light that was given them. It is said in verse 16 that they "went down to the sea, and having gone on board ship, they went over the sea to Capernaum". The Lord did not tell them to do this. In the gospel of Matthew, which also relates this incident, we are told that the Lord compelled them to go into the ship, and Mark relates the same fact, but John omits the Lord's commandment or compulsion in the passage. John has in mind that the Lord had furnished them with light, in order that they should move. Because of the miracle that Jesus

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had done, man would have made Him King, and, following this, we read that the Lord Himself moved: He "departed again to the mountain himself alone" -- He ascended. What then are the disciples to do? They are to regulate their movements by those of their Master, as we see in Matthew 5:1 and chapter 8:23; so that, the Lord being in movement here, they move also, and evidently in the right direction. Christendom generally has taken up a stationary attitude in regard of Christ, whilst He advances constantly in relation to the testimony, and those who love Him advance with Him. The disciples here show their understanding in that they move too. It was evening. The natural inclination would be to go somewhere to rest for the night. This often happens with us when the light furnished indicates that we should move, and at once. The two disciples in Luke 24, who had turned their backs on Jerusalem, as they reached Emmaus, entered their house, and the Lord entered with them; He sat down at their table; He gave thanks for the food, and broke the bread and vanished. Light had shone in that act of His, but now He had vanished. What are these two who had been straying to do? To remain in their house and speak of the wonderful event? To send messengers around to tell their friends about it, but remain in their house at Emmaus? No. They rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem. The Lord had not told them to return to Jerusalem; but the light that shone indicated that they should do this, and they hesitated not a moment. Thus if there be any here in any measure out of the way, and light comes in and convicts you of your error, delay not a moment, but return at once.

In our passage in John 6 light had shone, and the disciples entered into the ship, as it says: "having gone on board ship, they went over the sea to Capernaum". You may ask, Did the Lord tell them to go

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to Capernaum? That is not said here, but the facts that ensue show that it was according to His mind, for He joined them in the voyage, and then it says: "Immediately the ship was at the land to which they went". The Lord said nothing to them as to any mistake; on the contrary, He was with them in the voyage. He joined the ship, and they were immediately at their destination. So, as light shines into our souls, the word is: Move in it. Do not let apparent difficulties hinder you at all. The word is: "Be thou strong and very courageous" (Joshua 1:7). The rowing may be hard at the beginning: "it had already become dark, and Jesus had not come to them, and the sea was agitated by a strong wind blowing". The natural mind would say to them: You have made a mistake, you have undertaken what you are not qualified for, but they had no such thoughts: they kept on rowing in the right direction. They kept on rowing, that is the point. The Lord is testing them; are they able to go on in a right way? The Spirit of God tells us how far, or about how far, they had rowed. The Lord knew the number of stadia they had gone: He intended them to cover those stadia. The Spirit of God is liberal in giving the account: "Having rowed then about twenty-five or thirty stadia ..." You will understand that this was not a motor-boat; they had to row, and real energy was needed to overcome the contrary wind and the waves. The position is dark and the work hard, but they are rowing. Then we are told in verse 19: "They see Jesus walking on the sea and coming near the ship". If we understand clearly that we should do something which we have not yet been doing, let us begin straight away. The Lord will watch the struggle, more interested than any one of us; so He came "near the ship". Then we are told that "they were frightened". This indicates a state of soul that has to be guarded against; no one immediately said, 'It

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is the Lord', nor did they even ask. But He says to them: "It is I: be not afraid". This is a supreme moment when, engaged in the work that we should have been doing, and now are doing, because light has been furnished that indicates that we should do it, the Lord comes in; a mighty power comes in. What can the winds and the waves do against Him? He has gone down into death and overcome it; He has annulled the power of Satan too. He says: "All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth" (Matthew 28:18).

Now He has joined in with them, and the boat is immediately at the land. It was "the land to which they went", as if the Lord would say: 'I know what was in your mind, and I know you found the way hard, but you took the right way, and you have made for the right land, and now you have reached it'.

I hope that these remarks will help us. It is a time for acting. Of course the world is acting; great things are happening from man's point of view, but the Lord has caused light to shine upon us, and that light indicates something that we should be doing. He would say: "Be doing", as I have instructed you, and I will be with you in what you do (1 Chronicles 22:16). As we are doing what He indicates we should do, He is with us in it.

I pass on to Joshua 5:13 - 15. This is a military matter. If we walk in the light as God is in the light, we shall encounter the opposition of the devil, as we have been seeing. Satan has military equipment, different from ours. Goliath's military equipment was very different from David's. Military affairs require suitable equipment -- not Philistine weapons which men use, but divine weapons. David armed himself with these: a shepherd's bag containing five smooth stones out of the brook (1 Samuel 17:40). He chose only five. He chose them from the

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brook of the valley -- they would have been affected by the water. So David chose divine weapons, that is, the word of God, but such features of the word of God that can be used at a distance; he used artillery. The brethren will understand the difference between artillery fighting and hand-to-hand conflict. The Lord had to do with Satan directly; it was a hand-to-hand conflict. David had recourse to a sling. I need not go further into this wonderful story; we are familiar with it, but the idea of artillery finds place in spiritual warfare, as well as the weapons used in hand-to-hand fighting; hence the giant was brought down by the stone from David's sling.

Joshua shines with David as one of the great military leaders of Scripture. In Joshua 5 we arrive at a crisis in the history of the warfare for Canaan. The matter was put into the hands of Joshua. Israel is over the Jordan; the actual conflict with the Canaanites has not yet begun, but still Joshua is the leader. The position is like that in any locality where God gives a lead among His people; the state of the saints is being tested, and it is discovered that there has been remissness. They had not been circumcised in the wilderness. If this negligence continues, defeat is certain, Joshua had so far moved in the light. The Jordan had been driven back; Israel had crossed over dry land. It was all the work of God so far, and Joshua was the personal leader, but until now we hear nothing of this negligence in the wilderness. Sins of omission are nearly on the same level as sins of commission. Ignorance may modify omission, but never will excuse it. Now in the early part of this chapter this matter is rectified. If there has been negligence in any of our gatherings, or in any one of us, God would now speak to us about it and point out why it is: the flesh has not been judged. They have now dealt

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with it, the reproach of Egypt is rolled away, and they are eating the old corn of the land. They have entered on heavenly ground.

Let us look into this matter, dear brethren. What ground are we on? Are we on wilderness ground, which admits of negligence, allowing certain features of the flesh? Hence the Lord has not yet come in. In our passage here it is said: "And it came to pass when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, there stood a man before him with his sword drawn in his hand". Joshua was not blind: he looked, we are told. We have been given eyes to use them, and if we use them in a spiritual sense we shall see wonderful things. So Joshua there saw a wonderful Person -- a Man with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua, however, is not on the full level of the heavenly ground yet; he is somewhat on partisan lines. Even the leading men amongst us may fall into this error, and we may endeavour to use the Lord Himself to support us in our partisanship. Our prayers may be good, but the trend is to support our point of view. So Joshua says: "Art thou for us, or for our enemies?"

The man with the drawn sword said: "No; for as captain of the army of Jehovah am I now come". Why did be not come before? Conditions were not suitable, it is thus we invite defeat and miss the victory by the admission of poor conditions amongst us. The Lord would lead us to see that local conditions are suitable. Do we disallow the flesh by circumcision? Do we eat the heavenly bread? Do we take the heavenly ground in our prayers and in all our actions? As soon as we do, the Lord says: I am going to take the lead amongst you. "As captain of the army of Jehovah am I now come". Notice the word 'now'; the Lord is saying: Conditions are right, and now I have come. Then Joshua

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worships. What a man he was, a man to be emulated -- greatly honoured of God. His true worth shines here; he makes no excuses. He "fell upon his face to the earth". He would say inwardly: It is the Lord; why should I excuse myself before Him? Instead of asking Him: 'Art Thou on our side', I should be on His side. The Lord has intervened in this military sense. Many brethren throughout the world know this. Many of us here know it. Do we all know it? If we do, the next thing is to join Him, recognise Him as Captain of Jehovah's army. He has come in to give final victory to the assembly, that is the position; and Joshua indicates the attitude to be taken up by each of us -- he falls on his face and he worships.

But the Lord would go further with him. Joshua says: "What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of Jehovah's army said to Joshua, Loose thy sandal from off thy foot: for the place whereon thou standest is holy". The Lord would convey this thought to every one of us; we are to be holy in battle even as in worship. So the Lord would have Joshua to understand that the very ground is holy, and he is told to take off his sandals. There is no complaint: "Joshua did so" -- beautiful in his readiness for adjustment. Are we all ready at this moment for adjustment? Instead of bringing forward our eloquent excuses, why not do what Joshua did?

There is only a moment to say a word on Luke 24. It is an assembly meeting that is in view. I have spoken of the two who had erred, but the light having shone they returned immediately to Jerusalem; they came back at once to the point of departure. They did not stay in an hotel at Jerusalem for the night. They "found the eleven", who represented the authority of Christ, though a broken number; it was not "the twelve". So it is today,

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the number is broken; but still there is the representation of the authority of the Lord, and I would urge anyone here, who is in any way disregarding that authority, to cease that attitude at once. We are told that the two returning believers "found the eleven, and those with them, gathered together, saying, The Lord is indeed risen and has appeared to Simon". That means that grace is emphasised, for the Lord had appeared to Simon, who had so recently denied Him, and grace is supreme in the present dispensation. Then these two added their quota: "they related what had happened on the way, and how he was made known to them in the breaking of bread". Thus far the assembly went on happily and intelligently. The right things were being said; as we may say, suitable thanksgivings, suitable hymns, and the Lord comes in, as much as to say, I am ready to support you in this position. "And as they were saying these things, he himself stood in their midst, and says to them, Peace be unto you". So that all is now ready from the Lord's side for a perfect meeting. Yet, in spite of the fact that they were saying the right things, they were not ready for the Lord's intervention, just as Joshua was not quite ready for Him, nor the disciples in the boat in John 6. The Lord nevertheless, who appeared to Joshua and came into the boat, now comes into the assembly, although they are not ready. I do not know of anything more challenging than this scripture.

The word is to be ready in moving on in what the light indicates: the Lord will surely be with us. What is indicated by Him for us is our responsibility: His end will certainly be reached, even if for the moment we are not quite ready for Him to come in, but let us be ready for adjustment. Let us not bring forward our eloquent excuses! The Lord has great displeasure in that; but if, as in Joshua's case, we

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are submissive, He will come in and take charge. The verses read show that He did take charge in the assembly at this time. There is no exercise of will against Him at all, so that the desired end is reached. He sets them all right and leads them afterwards, and His leading is victorious leading. This is His attitude towards us, as towards all the gatherings in the world. We have reached a wonderful time! The Lord has come in to give the assembly a victorious end, and the appeal is to everyone to receive Him, or at least to be ready for adjustment. May God help us in that!

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THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY

John 13:34,35; Jude 20 - 23; 1 John 2:20 - 27

J.T. The brethren will note the word 'yourselves' in these verses. What is in mind is that our minds should turn to ourselves, that is, to the local conditions which mark us. There is first the obligation that there should be love amongst ourselves, then ability to keep ourselves; then in John's epistle, as to the unction which we have and which teaches us among ourselves, in verse 27 it says, "and yourselves" -- the word being emphatic; a footnote in this English Translation reads: 'Personal pronouns, used as the subject of a verb, are normally emphatic in Greek, but in John their use is almost universal. Still, there is some distinctive emphasis here'.

The first passage read comes in at a very momentous time in the history of our Lord. Judas had just gone out from the supper table. He had gone out to betray the Lord -- the very opposite of love; he was incapable of love in the true sense. He was marked by love of money which is "the root of every evil" (1 Timothy 6:10), and he was about to sell the Lord Jesus for thirty pieces of silver. But the Lord, instead of mourning for Himself, says: "Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him" -- that is moral glory. While Judas was about to betray Him, He was about to die for the glory of God. He speaks of His sufferings elsewhere, but not here. Here, He speaks of being glorified in the work of the cross, and God being glorified in Him. It was the supreme act of love. So He calls the disciples "children" -- Judas was not among them now; He would bring them into the current of love, which was flowing in great power. And so it is that in our local meetings -- the Lord's supper brings this before us -- the current of divine love normally flows and the Lord would

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bring us into it on each occasion. The Spirit develops love amongst us; He causes the love of God to be shed abroad in our hearts, and each occasion therefore should deepen the precious current. It was flowing here, and so the Lord says, "A new commandment I give to you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another".

Rem. The chapter begins with the Lord's love in spite of every circumstance that might arise.

J.T. The terrible fact is related: "And during supper, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas son of Simon, Iscariote, that he should deliver him up ..." Satan had found a place in the heart of one of the Lord's apostles. But the current of love flowed irresistibly. The Lord, having died since, and having gone into heaven, according to the later chapters, sent down the Spirit who maintains this current amongst the saints, but it must be in us. We read indeed of "the love of the Spirit" (Romans 15:30), but the activities of love by the Spirit are in the saints. The current will be weaker or stronger according to the state of the saints. The Lord's thought here is that there should be a steady permanent quantity of love among the saints.

Ques. Has not love an imperative character here -- a commandment, and a new commandment?

J.T. Yes, it has a peculiar force in John; it is not simply that it is another commandment, added to all the rest; it contemplates the Lord's absence. The old commandment is what they had from the beginning, referring to the flow of love and light and life in the Lord personally. Now that He is to be away, and the Holy Spirit about to come, the new thing is to start in them; so that the presence of love among us during His absence can be relied upon, and thus we are marked off as disciples of His. In John's epistle the new commandment is said to be "true in him and in you" (1 John 2:8).

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Ques. Would you say that this is normal but not automatic; there must be exercise in each one of us?

J.T. What was true in Christ here was true in Him alone until He died and was taken into heaven, but subsequently the Holy Spirit came down to form the same thing in us.

Ques. Is that why it is called a new commandment?

J.T. That is what I thought. We can easily see, I think, that what was true in Christ as Man here, can only be true in us because He died and went to heaven, and the Holy Spirit came down; and not only as the Spirit has come, but as there is exercise to give Him room. There must be enlargement of vessels, and that leads us to consider the widow in 2 Kings 4. She had oil, but was not making use of it, and so it is that many of us have the Spirit, but we do not make use of Him. She was in debt; we are indebted to one another to love each other. It is by the Spirit we discharge our moral obligations. So, as I have suggested, the exercise directed by Elisha implied enlargement of capacity. He said: Get vessels, not a few; and she did, and every vessel was filled. So that the more capacity we have, the more wealth we have; the Spirit will fill all the capacity we give Him.

Rem. It is very interesting to see that the Lord says in the chapter we are considering, "As I have loved you, that ye also love one another". There was no limit to the Lord's love, and it seems that there is none for the love of the brethren.

J.T. He was always full of the Holy Spirit. We are to be filled -- that is a development.

Rem. Thus our special exercise should be to have greater capacity to receive the Spirit, to possess a greater measure of the Spirit; and if we have the Spirit, the normal state will be love.

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Rem. If we look for love through our own exercises and forget the Spirit, we risk having an imitation of love; comradeship or something of that kind.

J.T. Love in us is to be love in the Spirit. Returning to the type in 2 Kings 4, the widow was to procure vessels, not a few. Elisha said to her in verse 3, "Let it not be few; and go in, and shut the door upon thee and upon thy sons, and pour out into all those vessels, and set aside what is full. And she went from him, and shut the door upon her and upon her sons; they brought the vessels to her, and she poured out. And it came to pass when the vessels were full, that she said to her son, Bring me yet a vessel. And he said to her, There is not a vessel more. And the oil stayed". That is, God does not give His Spirit by measure. As the Spirit was in Christ, so He is now in the assembly; so that He fills each of us whatever our capacity may be. The woman told the man of God, and he said, "Go, sell the oil, and pay thy debt, and live thou and thy sons on the rest". So that the clear lesson is that through the exercise that has been alluded to, in self-judgment, the Spirit fills us. We are "by the Spirit", to "put to death the deeds of the body", and that makes room for the Spirit.

Ques. "There is not a vessel more". Is that relative to limitations on our side?

J.T. There was no such limitation on Christ's side. The woman was to sell the oil -- it is a figure, of course -- and pay her debts, which means that we love one another, because that is our great indebtedness. (Romans 13:8).

Ques. Do you think that the result here flows from obedience to prophetic ministry?

J.T. Quite so. That brings up the question of prophetic ministry. It helps us to judge ourselves, to make room for the Spirit. As we make room for the Spirit, we make room for love. Thus, as we have

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love amongst ourselves in any locality, we are always sustained. When the apostle came to speak about gifts in the letter to Corinth, he says, "yet shew I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence" (1 Corinthians 12:31), and that way is the way of love; so that he says, "Love never fails" (chapter 13:8).

Ques. Would the pressure of circumstances in which the saints are found give occasion for love one to another, as in the case of Christ?

J.T. It says in Romans 5:3, "And not only that, but we also boast in tribulations, knowing that tribulation works endurance; and endurance, experience; and experience, hope; and hope, does not make ashamed, because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which has been given to us". That is what you have in your mind?

Rem. I was thinking that the pressure of circumstances in which the Lord was found was an occasion for the manifestation of such a love.

J.T. A well-known scripture from Psalm 4:1 comes in here: "In pressure thou hast enlarged me". In Romans 5 we have the workers that the believer has, such as tribulation; and in chapter 8:28, "all things work together for good to those who love God".

Ques. Do we find in the Song of Songs all the circumstances which contribute to the production of the fruit of love? "Awake, north wind, and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow forth" (chapter 4:16).

J.T. Very good. The passage in the book of Jude also brings in this word twice: "But ye, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God". A note indicates that the verb 'keep' is in the aorist tense in Greek, meaning that we are always to be kept in that state. That shows that in the circumstances contemplated in this epistle, love is

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maintained by prayer in the Holy Spirit. The fact of praying in the Holy Spirit gives a remarkable character to our prayers. Here again we have a current. I have often observed in meetings for prayer, as I have occasion to attend a great many, that our prayers do not go very far afield. Prayers in the Spirit would include all the divine interests, inclusive of course, more particularly of the local interests.

Ques. Should we be powerfully held by the thought that Christ has loved the assembly and delivered Himself up for her?

J.T. Quite so. The whole field of divine interest would be in mind. Jehovah said that His house was to be a house of prayer for all peoples (Isaiah 56:7).

Ques. Would this thought of praying in the Holy Spirit be all the more touching because it occurs in a writing which speaks of apostasy?

J.T. The leading epistles on apostasy make room for the Spirit, especially 2 Thessalonians and this epistle.

Rem. It speaks just before, in verse 19, of those "who set themselves apart, natural men, not having the Spirit".

J.T. It is what they do in the monasteries and convents; a terrible thought, nauseous to God, separation pretending to be in sanctification, and yet the Spirit not there. So our verse is the antidote to that. The monkish idea must be wholly repudiated by us -- any pretension to sanctity without the Holy Spirit. What a word that is for us in the midst of all this darkness: "But ye, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, awaiting the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life". This verse fits well to the verse in John 13, where we have the new commandment to love one another; here, we keep ourselves in the love of God as praying in the Holy Spirit. The prayer meeting becomes

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very delightful as answering to this. Many stay away at home on the Monday because they have had a hard day. The meeting for prayer is therefore reduced in value in our eyes. The more we have to do, the more we need the prayer meeting.

Rem. Seeing we have here the Holy Spirit, and "your most holy faith", do we need to be formed in holiness?

J.T. "Building yourselves up on your most holy faith", is as if it were basic. I suppose the word 'faith' here would include the truth, the doctrine. In verse 3 Jude says: "I have been obliged to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints". So that "building yourselves up on your most holy faith" would include a meeting such as the present.

Ques. It would not be limited to a meeting like this perhaps; it would be continual?

J.T. Yes, but it would apply specially to meetings where the truth is before us, with faith inclusive of the truth.

Ques. Does it help to refer to Acts 16 where it speaks of the riverside where they were wont to pray, referring to prayer by the Spirit perhaps?

J.T. The assembly at Philippi was like a tree planted by the riverside; that is, the continuance of prayer maintains freshness -- "a tree planted by brooks of water, which giveth its fruit in its season, and whose leaf fadeth not" (Psalm 1:3). Prayer by the river really is the key to the position of Philippi. It involves continual freshness amongst us. So the apostle says to the Philippians that they had fellowship with him in the gospel from the first day till the day on which he wrote.

It is said in Acts 16:16, "And it came to pass as we were going to prayer that a certain female slave, having a spirit of Python, met us", they were going to prayer, as we might say, to the prayer meeting,

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and it is here that they met the satanic opposition, showing how Satan resists the idea of prayer amongst the brethren.

Rem. If there is freshness there is also fruit, as in the case of Joseph, who is a "fruitful bough by a well".

Rem. The river is not local; it does not come from, nor stop at, Philippi.

Ques. It was women who were assembled by the riverside at Philippi, in Acts 16; what does that suggest?

J.T. These women give character to the work of God there. Lydia is an outstanding sister, a remarkable subject of the work of God at Philippi.

Ques. Would it be the subjective side?

J.T. Quite so, and in an intelligent way. The apostle speaks about women in the epistle also (chapter 4:2): "I exhort Euodia, and exhort Syntyche, to be of the same mind in the Lord; yea, I ask thee also, true yokefellow, assist them, who have contended along with me in the glad tidings", -- "them" -- is feminine, as you will notice, alluding to women.

The passage in John's epistle stresses the word yourselves as we have already noted. "And yourselves, the unction which ye have received from him abides in you, and ye have not need that any one should teach you; but as the same unction teaches you as to all things, and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in him". This is a word that fits in in view of modernism, and parents do well to take note of it in regard of their children, because the schools teach modernism. The children, of course, must have ordinary instruction. In itself the acquisition of this instruction does not harm them; but destructive principles are introduced today; denying the inspiration of the Scriptures, and denying the truth of what they teach. The children should be protected against these deadly errors.

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Rem. Sometimes we meet people who say in regard to this passage, "ye have not need that anyone teach you": 'I have the Holy Spirit, I do not need the meetings'.

J.T. That is very unintelligent, and I should suspect an excuse for spiritual laziness. But what is extremely serious is that such an attitude sets aside what God has given in the gifts with which He has provided the assembly.

Ques. In such a case there is no place for the teaching which comes to us through those whom the Spirit uses?

J.T. No indeed. Absenting ourselves from the meetings -- the devil is behind it -- we are sure to miss something that we will never get again.

Rem. We should find the answer in John's second epistle, written to the elect lady: "I rejoiced greatly that I have found of thy children walking in truth" (verse 4).

Ques. Would you say a word as to the anointing, as being different, for instance, from the reception of the Spirit?

J.T. In verse 20 it is said to be "the unction from the holy one". It is the Spirit, of course, but more the power and the effect of His presence in teaching.

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"THOU HAST PERFECTED PRAISE"

Matthew 20:29 - 34; Matthew 21:8 - 16

J.T. What is in mind is to show that when there is a given feature of the truth introduced, it is to be carried through; when a certain note is struck, every exercised ear will discern it and take it on and carry it through. The two blind men say: "Lord, Son of David". They were blind, but had heard that Jesus was passing by, and they address Him by a title that fitted at the moment; this would indicate that they were the subjects of the work of God.

This thought is taken up by the crowds in chapter 21:9, only they add the word "Hosanna", a term of praise, but which in itself implies urgency in an appeal for salvation; it means 'Save, I beseech thee'. Christ is recognised as able to save now. From whatever we need in this town to be saved, He is ready to save us.

Then the children in the temple take up the same expression: "Hosanna to the Son of David" (verse 15). This brought out opposition; it was too much for the enemy that it should be carried forward; and so the Lord defends the children. "The chief priests and the scribes ... were indignant", and the Lord says to them: "Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?". The children had taken up the feature of the truth, and made it part of the service of God, as we may say. From the religious standpoint, the two blind men were most unlikely persons to introduce this great new feature of the truth. And the chief priests and scribes regarded it as most unsuitable that children should take up this feature in the temple; it was being made by them a part of the divine service. The book of Psalms represents the service of God, David was evidently the compiler of them, and the author of many. He was the author of the one the Lord quoted -- Psalm 8:2: "Out of

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the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou established praise because of thine adversaries, to still the enemy and the avenger". This is very remarkable, because the true David was now here, and He quotes this psalm to support what the children were saying. The words "perfected praise" should be particularly stressed. A new feature of the truth introduced by such unlikely persons as the blind men, and then asserted in the service of God in the temple, implied the complete setting aside of the current religious system. God was taking new persons into His service.

Ques. Do you not think that the blind men and the children were in accord with what we find at the beginning of Matthew's gospel, the genealogy of the Son of David?

J.T. This is one of the chief points in the whole gospel: "generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham". The first chapter of Matthew shows that Christ's claim to be Messiah was legal -- a clear line, down from Abraham to Christ. Now after His service and testimony in Galilee, He is approaching His capital as Son of David. Instead of the official class in Jerusalem coming out to acclaim Him as such, these two blind men acclaim Him or recognise Him.

Rem. It is those touched by divine compassion who can give a response -- "Jesus, moved with compassion".

J.T. Quite so, but the remarkable thing is that they address Him as "Lord, Son of David" before He expresses His compassion. They were not told that the Son of David was passing by; it was simply that they had heard that "Jesus was passing by", and they address Him as "Lord, Son of David". They represent the work of God. As the facts are mentioned, it is clear that they had light in their souls in regard of the Person who was there. Paul goes so far as to say that "no one can say, Lord Jesus,

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unless in the power of the Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:3). That would mean that the person who says it would say it with full intelligence and feeling, and that really implies in principle what we have here in these two blind men. Thus in the recent recovery of the truth, that is during the last hundred years, persons that the religious leaders of the day would regard as unsuitable brought out the truth; and others even less likely have been enabled of God to introduce it in the service of God.

Ques Do the blind men go further than the crowds and the children, adding "Lord"?

J.T. I think that is correct.

Ques. Does what is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 1:27 - 31 enter into this?

J.T. Yes. The blind men say "Lord", which is the recognition of His authority. The crowds preface the words "Son of David" with the word "Hosanna" and so do the children, which would mean that the Son of David has actually become a Saviour, a present Saviour; that is, He is ready to save now -- the salvation of God has come. The crowds further say: "Blessed be he who comes in the name of the Lord" -- which is a quotation from Psalm 118. The Lord told the Jews that they should not see Him again until they should say this. Then the children take up that note in the temple where the service of God was carried on, and the true David says that they were perfecting praise. We should all regard this as most opportune at the present time, for the Lord is operating to perfect the praise of God. On the cross He said: "Thou art holy, thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel" (Psalm 22:3). In verse 22 of that same psalm the Lord as risen says: "In the midst of the congregation will I praise thee". So we have a beautiful connection in the Lord's quoting from this book of Psalms in chapter 21, for He Himself is the sweet Psalmist of Israel.

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Ques. There would have been a great deal of noise with the buying and selling and money-changing. Would you say that in the public position of christianity there is much noise, but no worship at all?

J.T. None at all; and the chief priests and scribes are not complaining about the money-changers and those who sold doves, but they complain about the children praising the Lord Jesus -- a striking comment on current conditions: the leaders close their eyes to what is wrong, but complain against what is right.

Ques. Could it be said that this note should be specially heard amongst the saints at a moment when the Lord presents Himself as "the root and offspring of David"?

J.T. Yes. The Spirit and the bride say, "Come". What a cheer it must be to the heart of Christ as He hears the word "Come" from the Spirit and the bride!

Ques. I would like to ask if there is a parallel between this setting and the movements of the ark in the book of Joshua? I was thinking particularly of Jesus coming in from beyond Jordan, the neighbourhood of Jericho, and the work of God in Rahab.

J.T. We have a wonderful group of circumstances here, corresponding as you say, with the ark crossing the Jordan. The ark is said to be the power and the glory of God (Psalm 78:61); both ideas were realised infinitely in Christ. "Hosanna", meaning 'save now', implies that this was discerned.

Ques. Would the work of God in Rahab correspond a little with the work of God in the two blind men?

J.T. Very strikingly, I should say. Rahab represented the sovereign work of God, for she could not have had any direct link with Moses and Aaron. Nor is it at all likely that these two blind men had any links with those who could teach them about Christ, so that their calling Him "Lord" and recognising

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Him as "Son of David" is very striking. All this shows how God takes up persons that would be regarded as utterly disqualified by the religious leaders of the day.

Ques. Do we have the same thought when Peter addresses the priests, that is those who serve God, as having been called "out of darkness to his wonderful light"?

J.T. I think it corresponds fully.

Ques. Is this thought included in Simeon's prophecy which is referred to in Acts 28:28? "Be it known to you therefore, that this salvation of God has been sent to the nations; they also will hear it".

J.T. Quite so; a very good connection, I should say. We ought to pay a little attention to the colt spoken of in the beginning of chapter 21, as linking on the blind men and the crowds with the children. It is the young element introduced. The disciples put their garments upon the ass and the colt. The mother of the colt is spoken of here; that is the thought of the old brethren working with the young brethren. They work together; they carry Jesus into His capital, that is they carry the testimony to finality. As David and Solomon sat on the throne together, the testimony is carried triumphantly to finality.

Ques It says in 1 Chronicles 24:31, "the chief fathers just as the youngest of their brethren"; is there a correspondence?

J.T. Very striking. The order of the divine service is wonderfully amplified after David and Solomon are on the throne together, and the young men are especially brought into evidence. The age at which the Levites begin is reduced, by the last words of David, to twenty instead of twenty-five and thirty (1 Chronicles 23:27). This is to bring in the young brothers and sisters as active in the testimony.

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Ques. Do we see a touching reference when Paul, when writing to the Corinthians, says, See that Timothy "may be with you without fear; for he works the work of the Lord, even as I" (1 Corinthians 16:10)?

J.T. That passage strikingly supports what we are saying.

Rem. "And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers" (Malachi 4:6).

J.T. Happy relations exist between the old brothers and the young.

Rem. In 1 Chronicles 25:8 we have "the small as well as the great, the teacher with the scholar".

Rem. The apostle says to Timothy: "Let no one despise thy youth".

J.T. Yes; you will notice that it is for the young brothers to see to it that no one despises their youth, which would mean that a young brother would not be characterised by lightness, but would put on the characteristics of an old brother as far as possible.

Ques. Have you any thought why the garments of the disciples covered the ass and the colt, whereas the garments of the crowd were strewed in the way?

J.T. They "brought the ass and the colt and put their garments upon them, and he sat on them". That would mean that what is characteristic of disciples who have learned from Christ, is that they are ready to impart all that they know to a new convert. Christ here is said to have sat on them; He Himself did it. It is said in Luke that "they" -- that is the disciples -- "put Jesus on it". But Matthew would show that the ass and the colt being thus clothed with the garments of the disciples, are accepted by the Lord for His use. Then as regards the crowd it says they "strewed their own garments on the way". This, I think, would mean great humility in the crowd, and indicates that in these

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circumstances the Spirit of Christ is prevalent. The crowd would mean the ordinary persons; but they are brought into the power of the current which is there. And others are affected too: they "kept cutting down branches from the trees and strewing them on the way". So that the current of interest in favour of Christ is powerful for the moment. It is very beautiful when you see a current of divine power operative, and all are brought into it. Then the suitable complement to that is in verse 9: "the crowds who went before him and who followed cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; blessed be he who comes in the name of the Lord". Those "who went before him and who followed" -- that would show that the current was powerful and actuating all -- those behind and before. So that where there is such a condition in any degree amongst the brethren, Scripture will find its place and will be brought forward to honour Christ. As already said, they add a word from Psalm 118.

Ques. You have just said, 'Such a condition'; would you explain?

J.T. Well, we will say at the Bible reading at Beauvoisin, the Spirit of God is operating in the meeting, and fresh thoughts will be introduced, the Scriptures will confirm them, and Christ will be honoured. All this comes out in the chapter which occupies our attention.

Ques. Does this include the prophetic side of the truth?

J.T. Particularly so.

Ques. Do you think every new position taken up among the saints should be supported by some scripture?

J.T. It will be so. Here the Spirit of God in enumerating the events tells us that "all this came to pass, that that might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, Say to the daughter of

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Zion, Behold thy King cometh to thee, meek, and mounted upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass". That is to say, there will be a sense that what is current is according to Scripture. But then what the people say here shows a further thought. Verse 4 is a quotation from Zechariah, but the end of verse 9 is a quotation from Psalm 118, as if the current, the power of the Spirit, being present, fresh scriptures are introduced.

Ques. Would you have conditions for that in Acts 1, and a remarkable use of Scripture? Peter quotes a verse from one Psalm, another from another Psalm -- and all the brethren are in agreement.

J.T. That usually characterises a spiritual meeting where they study the Scriptures. The Spirit of God is present and has liberty; there is a remarkable opening up of the truth. The Spirit of God teaches us Himself. In John 16:13 the Lord says the Spirit "shall guide you into all the truth". That would include Bible readings where the Spirit has place; one brother says one thing, another brother says another thing, and so on; the brethren are brought into the matter, but the Holy Spirit through all guides us into the truth.

Ques. What would be the difference between a reading and a meeting for prophetic ministry?

J.T. The reading of the Scriptures may take on the character of prophetic ministry. The Spirit being present may cause the word to have a prophetic force. But 1 Corinthians 14:23 introduces instruction for a meeting in which prophecy has the leading part; the persons who speak are even regarded as prophets.

Rem. But all are not prophets: "Are all prophets? Are all teachers?" (1 Corinthians 12:29).

J.T. This particular meeting we are alluding to has persons known as prophets specially in mind;

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so that it says, "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge" (1 Corinthians 14:29).

Ques. What does "the others" mean?

J.T. I think the word would allude to the other prophets present, but by extension, of course, it would include all that are present.

Rem. Where the word is truly prophetic, it could be said: "This is of Jehovah; it is wonderful in our eyes" (Psalm 118:23).

Rem. It is a question of a special meeting; it cannot be a question of likening any other meeting to that one.

J.T. It has its own character. What we call a reading, such as the present, is alluded to in Acts 20. Paul's first speaking took the form of an address, a discourse; but after Eutychus was resuscitated, what was said took the form of a conversation: "having gone up, and having broken the bread, and eaten, and having long spoken [or conversed] until daybreak ..."

Ques. Is the meeting for prophetic ministry in a weekly setting?

J.T. That would be a matter for the brethren to decide as to what they are equal to. Generally, brethren who have taken up this matter of prophetic ministry have a regular meeting.

Ques. The one who prophesies must edify the assembly, and should know the moment when to give place to another who has had a revelation. How can it be known that another has had a revelation?

J.T. That is accounted for by the organism designated as 'the body' in chapter 12. If we are together in intelligent affection for one another, we shall be very sensitive as to what anyone may have. I hope the brethren will not overlook what has been remarked about the youthful element amongst us, that is, the colt associated with the ass, carrying

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the Lord, carrying the testimony to finality; that implies energy which young people have, and also freshness. Then the children continue the service, and the Lord says that they are perfecting praise. It is very remarkable that the priests do not interfere until the children come in.

Ques. "And Samuel ministered before Jehovah, a boy girded with a linen ephod" (1 Samuel 2:18). Would you say a word on that?

J.T. A very good suggestion. What should be noted is the linen ephod; it alludes to sobriety. So that in 2 Timothy 2:22 the apostle says: "flee also youthful lusts". He exhorts him to "be a model of the believers, in word, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity" (1 Timothy 4:12).

Ques. The colt is called "the foal of an ass"; does not this suggest that the young brethren should keep very close to the older brethren and depend on their teaching, so to speak?

J.T. I think that is an element in the teaching of the passage.

Ques. Do you not think that the scribes and Pharisees have been really supplanted by these children?

J.T. That is the position. The prominence given to garments and branches of the trees as brought into the service is very remarkable.

Ques. What difference is there between the two?

J.T. The clothing would point to characteristic experience in the persons who own the clothes. The branches from the trees suggest the freshness of life; they are not withered branches. They "kept cutting" them, it says. There is this suggestion about the branches in that they are not to be used again for the purpose; they are cut down. A fresh occasion of this kind requires fresh branches cut down. After Samson had slain a thousand men with a fresh jawbone of an ass, he threw it away. That is, you

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will not use that address again. I think the Lord helps us as to freshness. He has got such resources; He will keep on giving you.

Rem. There is always the idea of a river in Scripture.

J.T. Referring to the river in Ezekiel 47, the prophet is made to experience the varied or graded depths of it, until he says it was "waters to swim in" -- that would be in our experience through exercise. But then he says: "it was a river that I could not pass through", and moreover "a river that could not be passed through", meaning that I arrive at infinitude. Then he is brought back to it again, and he says there "were very many trees"; and it goes on to say, "it shall bring forth new fruit every month" -- continued freshness.

Rem. In the thought of the branches, we see that which is fresh. And when it is a question of ourselves securing freshness, we have to follow the man with the pitcher of water.

Ques. Does this allusion to Ezekiel lead us to ministry?

J.T. You are brought back to a subject you had before, and you find new features in it.

Rem. Herod slays all the young children at the beginning of this gospel; he does not want 'freshness'.

J.T. He was ready to sacrifice the children in order to destroy Christ.

Rem. Moses says to Pharaoh: "We will go with our young and with our old" (Exodus 10:9); he mentions the young first.

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THE TESTIMONY MAINTAINED TO THE END (1)

Matthew 21:1 - 11; Mark 11:1 - 11

J.T. It was thought to continue the subject we had at Beauvoisin yesterday, that is, the colt as seen in the four gospels. What is in mind is to show how the testimony is to be carried through to finality, and specially those features of it that have been stressed during the revival in these last days.

The two blind men spoken of in chapter 20 introduced a special feature of the testimony at that time. They were evidently not educated in the ordinary religious way. They had heard that "Jesus was passing by", and they addressed Him as "Lord, Son of David". This title particularly entered into that moment. The Lord had come over the Jordan, and He was approaching Jerusalem, the city of the great King, and it was especially right that He should be acknowledged as "Lord, Son of David". So these blind men address Him in that way. It is taken up in the next chapter, verse 9, "And the crowds who went before him and who followed cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; blessed be he who comes in the name of the Lord; hosanna in the highest". The crowd takes up the note introduced by the blind men in chapter 20, but prefix it by the word "Hosanna", which means, 'Save, I beseech thee'; so that Christ is acknowledged as having present power to save. Later in the chapter the children say the same thing in the temple. These are the facts related to the appearance of the colt in this section, so that he has a particular importance. In fact it is the ass and the colt in this gospel; the ass is not mentioned in the other gospels, but she is present here, and as we had it yesterday at Beauvoisin, attention is called to the need of the younger and older brethren moving together. It is to be noted that the Lord Himself

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appropriated the ass and the colt; it says, "He sat on them". In Luke it is said that the disciples put Him on the colt. The thought as to Matthew is that the service of God is carried forward in this way, and the children take it up subsequently.

Ques. In Mark and Luke it is said to be a colt on which no man had ever sat, and in Luke it is said that the disciples put the Lord upon it. Would that suggest that a younger brother needs the help of the other brethren to repress impetuosity, as in a colt that has never served?

J.T. In Mark particularly the thought is that he had not been under the yoke of this world. Luke remarks on that too, and he speaks of the colt having masters; that is, the colt was held more strenuously. It would imply, I think, that the parents hold their children for the Lord, refusing the yoke -- the influence of the world, so that they have not much to unlearn. It is a great advantage when the young brethren, children of christian parents, are available for the service. It is said that no child of man had ever sat on this colt -- "no child of man"; the stress would be on human influences.

Ques. You would say it had never come under the influence of the world?

J.T. Particularly of man's mind. Paul said to the Corinthians that they were walking as men (1 Corinthians 3:3).

Ques. Is this illustrated in Timothy who from a child knew the Holy Scriptures?

J.T. Exactly.

Ques. It is said in 1 Timothy that the overseer must conduct his own house well, having his children in subjection. Would these children belong to such a house?

J.T. They would. We know from the types, especially in 1 Chronicles, how men of God carried their children with them in the service. In Matthew,

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however, this feature is omitted; the ass and the colt are held together. The foal is said to mean 'son of one under yoke'; that is, the colt is under the ass's influence.

Ques. The Lord sat on the ass and the colt; do we infer from this that they were both available for Him as Lord?

J.T. I think the fact that He appropriated them shows that they were in the right condition; so that in our application now it would show that the older and the younger brethren are together in the testimony of God, the young recognising the moral weight, experience, and authority of the elder ones.

Ques. Is there special instruction in the fact that in Matthew it is the ass that is tied?

J.T. Quite so; that would mean that the elder brethren are abiding by right principles, by the commandments of the Lord. Sometimes the brethren assert authority which only comes from themselves; they are not abiding by right principles.

Rem. It is a special exercise for those who are older to continue in subjection and dependence.

J.T. Quite so, and asserting the authority of Scripture. When David and Solomon were on the throne together, David insisted on the law of Moses (1 Kings 2:1 - 4). Thus as the older brethren abide by the truth, the younger ones do well to keep by them.

It will be observed that the disciples placed their own garments upon the ass and the colt. Discipleship is a different side of the position from experience. The disciples have learnt from Christ. Thus such a one as Timothy would appoint an elder; a man appointed might be older than he, but Timothy had the advantage of knowing Paul's doctrine and manner of life. So that discipleship implies ministry, teaching, prophecy or the like.

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Ques. Is the position of the village suggestive? It is said to be facing the disciples when they found themselves in the region of the mount of Olives.

J.T. The whole environment has to be taken into account. The position is Jerusalem with its environs; Bethphage and Bethany are at the mount of Olives, which alludes to spiritual influence. "Over against" suggests it was near at hand.

Rem. The Lord does not contemplate their losing any time in finding what is pleasing to Him, because it says "immediately".

J.T. What was suggested is that the Lord already had influence there. He had already worked in their hearts and was recognised there.

Ques. The disciples put their garments on the ass and the colt; the crowd spread theirs on the road. What is the difference?

J.T. The garments of the disciples allude to right teaching, I think. We are to take on the character of being taught of God. But there were the garments of the crowd as well. The crowds are not to be despised here. There was a strong current of influence favourable to Christ. The crowd comes under the power of it; hence they are recognised here. Their garments are not put upon the ass and the colt; they "strewed their own garments on the way", it says. Influence of that kind is not to be despised; it makes the path easier and more honourable to Christ.

Ques. What would the garments of the crowd represent?

J.T. They are characteristics entering into the service of God. Crowds are usually uncertain, but the Lord makes a distinction as to them, for instance, on the occasion of their remaining with Him three days. What characterised them is not to be despised; so far they form part of the general position favourable to Christ. Others cut down branches of the trees, which would mean that they

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had some spiritual idea of freshness. In view of the spiritual teaching flowing from it, we may presume that on another similar occasion they would not use these same branches. It was not something that they could find by the way, but fresh branches of the trees; they "kept cutting down branches", so that there was continual freshness.

Rem. The road would, as it were, be filled with freshness from beginning to end.

J.T. A very important feature, because the Lord has in mind now that the testimony is to go through in freshness to the end. It is very remarkable how in an occasion of this kind there is a current flowing. Satan does not seem to get any inlet here. The whole position is favourable to Christ.

Ques. Does this current of influence continue until the whole city is affected and all say the same thing?

J.T. That would be in view. You will observe in verse 9 that "the crowds who went before him and who followed" were all affected in the same way.

Ques. Should we see something in the order of this procession? The crowds go before with garments and branches, others follow, all marked by praise; and in the midst the Lord on the ass and colt, and no doubt the disciples beside Him?

J.T. A wonderful display of the power of the current in favour of Christ! The crowds say here: "Hosanna to the Son of David"; they add a word to what the blind men say. It is a word we do well to take account of, because it means, 'Save, I beseech thee'.

Ques. Would you develop that thought a little?

J.T. I think it is important to see that we have the Lord today to save us from the extraordinary circumstances with which we have to contend. It had been announced prophetically that "difficult

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times" would come. Now they are here, and He is a present Saviour, always available.

Ques. Is there a shade of difference between the two Hosannas, one uttered by the crowds perhaps in relation to the circumstances, and the other uttered by the children, which would be rather more for the house?

J.T. The second is the greater, because the Lord Himself comes into it to defend what the children say. "When the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonders which he wrought, and the children crying in the temple and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David, they were indignant, and said to him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus says to them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?" We can see in the Lord Himself coming in and introducing the Psalms, especially the first book which is peculiarly David's book (he is the author of the psalm the Lord quoted from), that we are in presence of the service of God. The children are maintaining it, which is to bring out this great thought of youthfulness as carrying the testimony; there is also the thought of freshness.

Ques. How are we to understand the thought of "sucklings", who cannot even speak?

J.T. It is a quotation from Psalm 8; it fits in peculiarly in Matthew. The true David is now here before us -- the sweet psalmist of Israel, and He had already said to His Father: "Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes. Yea, Father, for thus has it been well-pleasing in thy sight" (chapter 11:25).

Ques. Nine times in Matthew 2 the Lord is called a little child. Is there a thought of correspondence with Him?

J.T. The "young child" in Matthew 2 refers more to the dignity of Christ Himself, but here it is

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a question of its being the Father's pleasure to give the revelation to the very youngest of those that were in His mind; so that all those who are born of God are brought into this. The youthfulness is stressed, and now it is applied to the service of God: "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise".

Ques. Would it be right to say that the effort here is to banish this feature of youthfulness, as Herod did in chapter 2 of this gospel?

J.T. It would be the same kind of thing. In the beginning of Matthew, Herod is concerned about the age of Jesus, and so those destroyed were about that age. But here it is the babes and sucklings, the very youngest.

Rem. In 1 Peter it is a question of new-born babes desiring earnestly the pure mental milk of the word.

J.T. That is a question of taste, discernment in taste; young christians should have taste for what is necessary for them -- the pure mental milk of the word. It is not mere ordinary building up of the babe physically, but of his mind.

Ques. Would it be right to say that these children are reliable? It says, "And leaving them he went forth out of the city".

J.T. That is a good suggestion; it corresponds with chapter 19 where the Lord lays His hands on the little children and departs; that is, they are left, so that either themselves or others must take charge. To speak figuratively, these babes and sucklings did not use the common hymns that are taught to children; they were engaged with the highest note of the moment.

Ques. Would you say this was the highest note that had been expressed in the temple since its foundation?

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J.T. Here the important point is that the Person Himself is there, in the temple. He never was in it in the Old Testament. It is Jesus the Son of David actually present, and the subject of praise in the temple.

The presentation of this subject in Mark has reference to levitical service. The celebration of the crowd is: "Hosanna! blessed be he that comes in the Lord's name. Blessed be the coming kingdom of our father David. Hosanna in the highest!". As in Matthew and Luke, the Lord is seen in Mark as under orders; He comes "in the Lord's name" -- that would be Jehovah's name; the allusion is to Psalm 118. It is not only the Lord Himself here now, but the coming kingdom. Levitical service requires the kingdom; so that the mount of transfiguration is the kingdom of God come in power.

Ques. Is there anything to be gathered from the fact that this quotation is taken from Zechariah, the prophet who encouraged the remnant?

J.T. You are referring to Matthew's quotation. What is to be observed is that the Spirit of God would have us understand that this remarkable scene described had been foretold, that is to say, what God is doing now is according to the general trend of Scripture. And inasmuch as it is a quotation from Zechariah, who is a special remnant prophet, as has been remarked by our brother, it is most significant. He and Haggai not only prophesied in that day, but helped the builders.

Ques. All this stands related to prophetic ministry?

Rem. It is said in Ezra 5:2, "Then rose up Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and began to build the house of God which is at Jerusalem; and with them were the prophets of God, who helped them".

J.T. These two prophets, Haggai and Zechariah, coming in particularly in remnant times, illustrate

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the advantage of prophetic ministry in our times; as our brother has remarked, we see in this verse in Ezra that the prophets of God helped the builders. Hence here in Toulon, if the brethren are building, the prophets of God, if given place, will help them.

Rem. It is written in Ezra 6:14, "And the elders of the Jews built; and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they built and completed".

J.T. Yes, they finished -- that is the point. What is before us in these two meetings is to show how the testimony as revived is to go through to finality, and how the youthful ability amongst us is to be developed. The first book of Samuel is the book entering into this matter -- a child asked for, a child granted, a child devoted to the Lord, and his mother watching over him in his early days, a child acting as a priest with a linen ephod, a child made the confidant of God (for God revealed to him His mind about Eli and Eli's house), and finally recognised as a prophet in Israel from Dan to Beer-sheba. Hence parents and children and young men and young women are all brought into it. This is the need of the moment, that the testimony in its most pleasing features to God, that is in the service of praise, is to go through to finality.

What has been observed about the kingdom here should be in view before we finish. It is, "Hosanna! blessed be he that comes in the Lord's name"; Christ is here representative of God as the Sent One. And then there is the kingdom: "Blessed be the coming kingdom of our father David". And after that: "Hosanna in the highest!". So that we have great thoughts here, particularly for those who aspire to service in a special way. Our service is supported by the kingdom.. So that in chapter 9, as we remarked, the transfiguration is the kingdom of God come in power.

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THE TESTIMONY MAINTAINED TO THE END (2)

Luke 19:28 - 40; John 12:12 - 16

J.T. Matthew, mentioning the ass and the colt, retains the principle of two, as is usual in his records; the corresponding word is "two of you". But also, in the ass and the colt, we have an allusion to the elder brethren as with the younger brethren. What was made prominent in regard to Matthew was that the blind men introduced a new feature of the truth, and that this new feature is carried through by the young and the older ones together entering into the service of God maintained by the children in the temple, who were saying "Hosanna to the Son of David".

It was pointed out as to Mark that he stresses that no child of man had ever sat on the colt; it is spoken of as having been tied, without any mention of the ass, and it was used by itself. The suggestion was that he represents those who serve levitically. Hence the Lord is spoken of as "sent"; He came in the name of Jehovah. Then the kingdom of David is spoken of. According to what the Lord said to the disciples before ascending the mount of Transfiguration -- that the disciples would see the kingdom of God come in power -- those who serve in a special way, in the gospel or in ministry, are supported by the kingdom of God come in power. Thus Paul said that his preaching was "in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (1 Corinthians 2:4).

Luke enlarges on the environment in which the colt is held, and that he had masters -- persons who had absolute authority over him -- pointing to the need of young persons being held authoritatively by their parents. Parents are often too lax with their

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children, and hence they are not kept free from the influence of man, and not ready for the Lord when He puts in His claim to them.

Ques. What spiritual thought is conveyed in the "crossway" in Mark? The colt was "bound to the door without at the crossway" (chapter 11:4).

J.T. It is said in a note, leading round the house, not the main street; that is, the young person is allowed a certain latitude, but not in the main current of the world outside. The note would indicate he is kept within bounds -- "leading round the house". Do not let them away from the house.

Ques. Would the main street suggest the world and its influence?

J.T. The main current of the world. Hence parents should ask their child, Where have you been?

There is a certain variation in Mark between the Lord's description and what the disciples found. The Lord said: On entering the village "ye will find a colt tied, upon which no child of man has ever sat". What the disciples found was "a colt bound to the door without at the crossway". It would appear that the Spirit of God would suggest that these disciples were observant, as Paul was in regard to Timothy. In Luke it is said that they that were sent "found as he had said to them". Mark would stress that the servants are observant; they watch the ways of a brother's house, the customs and habits. When Elisha returned to the house of the Shunammite woman, the child had died. Why had he died? Elisha walked to and fro in the house, as if he were looking round to see whether there were any bad literature lying around, or other thing which could have allowed death to enter the house.

Rem. He was, in a way, searching for the weapon which had slain the child.

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J.T. Yes; the Lord had made no mistake; He overlooked nothing in the description He gave; the disciples looked into the details.

Ques. Is this a feature of discernment seen in the Lord particularly in Mark? I am thinking of Mark 11:11, where it says that He entered into Jerusalem and into the temple and looked round on all things.

J.T. Your point is the Lord looked round on all things; He left nothing out -- a very searching matter. It was in the temple, not in the households of the saints. But chapter 11 refers to what may be in the meeting. The Lord walks in the midst of the golden candlesticks and observes, we may say, all that may be in any one of them. There is a suggestion of universality in the Lord's walking in the midst of the golden candlesticks -- there are seven of them, representing all. What comes to one's mind is the variety of customs in different parts of the world. Assemblies which are characteristically assemblies of God will have the same customs. Paul says: "We have no such custom, nor the assemblies of God" (1 Corinthians 11:16). The Lord would insist in the gatherings on the importance of universal characteristics, that is, what is suitable to the house of God. It may seem to some a small matter, but God would have all the assemblies uniform. Verse 11 as was referred to, says: "having looked round on all things". Verse 15 shows that the next day He dealt with certain conditions which were not right: "entering into the temple, he began to cast out those who sold and who bought in the temple, and he overthrew the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of the dove-sellers, and suffered not that any one should carry any package through the temple".

Ques. Mention some customs which should characterise us all.

J.T. In some meetings the brothers and sisters used to stand up after the breaking of bread, and

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remain standing until the meeting was finished. I must say I have no complaint to make about the French meetings now, but I refer to this custom which I have noticed elsewhere as an illustration. I should add, however, that many meetings are now free from this custom.

Ques. You are thinking not only of the important things, but you extend this thought to all the details?

J.T. It says: "having looked round on all things". At St. Etienne some years back the collection box was nailed near the door; it is not there now, thank God.

Ques. What attitude do you think the saints should observe as gathered, for example, during prayer and thanksgiving?

J.T. In the case of prayer, we have a certain latitude in Scripture. The word generally used for worship in the New Testament means a prostration before the person worshipped. In every case we have something that would denote reverence.

Ques. Should not all the others be in the same attitude as the one who is praying?

J.T. I doubt that. Certainly the one who prays should observe a form of special reverence.

Ques. Should not the one who prays stand, as in priestly service? Is it not a priestly act?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Are there meetings where the brothers stand up with the brother who is praying?

Rem. There were some; perhaps there are some still.

J.T. The question is whether it is just a religious custom, and if so it is objectionable.

Ques. What about kneeling down?

J.T. You mean all? If it is a small gathering, it is acceptable; but in a gathering like this it would

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be very difficult; and it is questionable whether a long period of kneeling promotes liberty.

Rem. In another matter it speaks of waiting on the Lord without distraction.

J.T. Quite so. What is in mind in Luke is the service of God. It says, "As he drew near, already at the descent of the mount of Olives, all the multitude of the disciples began, rejoicing, to praise God with a loud voice for all the works of power which they had seen, saying, Blessed the King that comes in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest". The wording has to be regarded as the product of the Spirit in such a case. We already noted that the scene contemplates a divine current. Luke gives a peculiar touch, as if it was understood that heaven was now coming into view. The multitude of the heavenly host in chapter 2 said: "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace". Here it is "peace in heaven", showing that a change had come about, that instead of peace on earth, it is now peace in heaven; it is a question of christianity.

Ques. Does this refer by anticipation to the ascension and exaltation of Christ at the right hand of God?

J.T. Yes, and ultimately to the casting out of heaven of Satan, all bringing out the remarkable intelligence which enters into Luke's account. The Lord had said according to chapter 10, when the disciples returned and said their service had been victorious, "In this rejoice not, that the spirits are subjected to you", and He adds "I beheld Satan as lightning falling out of heaven ... rejoice that your names are written in the heavens". That is, the Lord was bringing out the heavenly side of the position. The casting out of Satan makes room for us in heaven. So that the word here is: "peace in heaven, and glory in the highest". All this enters into the

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praises of the saints at the present time. The children in Matthew were praising in the temple, but their praises did not go beyond Christ as Son of David. It is the heavenly position in Luke; hence the Lord says here, answering the Pharisees: "I say unto you, If these shall be silent, the stones will cry out". Such was the immensity of what was present, the current of power centering in Christ, that the Lord says this.

Ques. Would the Lord weeping over Jerusalem, as recorded immediately afterwards, find some expression with us now in evangelical feelings?

J.T. I am sure God would have pleasure in right feelings -- weeping over Jerusalem; as it is indicated in the note, the word "wept" implies an evident outward expression of grief. So in Ezekiel we learn that those who sigh and cry for all the abominations are specially marked off. What comes out in the whole scene here is depth of feeling -- persons capable of being affected by a peculiar movement of God.

Ques. The next chapter begins with "And it came to pass on one of the days, as he was teaching the people in the temple, and announcing the glad tidings ...". I wondered whether the feelings would find expression in the preaching of the gospel.

J.T. It has the force of evangelising; it is more than preaching. It seems to me that the Lord would help the brethren at this time to be in the current of what God is doing at the present time, and to be intelligent in it.

John's account as usual is most peculiar, compared with the others. The truth is that what governs John's account is the immense testimony manifested in the resurrection of Lazarus. In verse 9 we have, "A great crowd therefore of the Jews knew that he was there; and they came, not because of Jesus only, but also that they might see Lazarus

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whom he raised from among the dead. But the chief priests took counsel that they might kill Lazarus also, because many of the Jews went away on his account and believed on Jesus". We have no reference to Bethphage, Bethany and the mount of Olives, nor to the colt tied. What we find is that the crowd is acting already, without any reference to the ass and the colt. They "took branches of palms and went out to meet him, and cried, Hosanna, blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord, the King of Israel. And Jesus, having found a young ass, sat upon it". That is to say, it is pre-eminently God's power in Christ, or, at least, Christ's power in the raising of Lazarus, which originates this great testimony. The colt is found as this is proceeding. The Lord finds it Himself; He does not send the disciples for it. He sees that it is necessary to have this colt at this particular time. Hence, to make an application, it would be a young brother at the present time; the current of revival has already started and he is brought into it, as if the Lord would say he is needed at this particular time. The colt is not going to create the movement; the movement is on, and the word 'found' indicates that the Lord has in mind that someone is needed for this occasion.

Ques. Would you say that the current was already in existence when the Lord laid hold of a young man named Saul?

J.T. It is really a direct example of what we have here.

Rem. The mention of "branches of palms" is suggestive; it means triumph, victory.

J.T. They are not mentioned elsewhere in relation to this incident; the crowds are providing them. That is all proceeding, and now the Lord is looking for a young man. That is the principle.

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Rem. It says in Acts 16 that Paul "came to Derbe and Lystra; and behold, a certain disciple was there, by name Timotheus ... Him would Paul have go forth with him".

J.T. Another excellent example of what we are saying. In order rightly to apprehend this account, we have to consider carefully the fact that God was glorified and the Son of man glorified in the resurrection of Lazarus. Lazarus was here; next to the Lord, he is the prominent person. He represents spiritual dignity in silence. That is to say, in the meeting in Toulon there is to be spiritual dignity. It is a result of the current of what God has done. Scripture never speaks of what Lazarus said; it is what he was as the fruit of the work of Christ: "Jesus ... came to Bethany, where was the dead man Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from among the dead ... Lazarus was one of those at table with him". And now in public he is just spoken of as "Lazarus whom he raised from among the dead". Lazarus represents the fruit of the power that has been active. And now who is the young man who will come in at this juncture to be used of the Lord? This great testimony is not as it were to evaporate and disappear; it is to be carried to completion. The Lord deliberately selected this young ass and sat upon it. Then the prophet Zechariah is again quoted, but the point is not exactly who the king is but "thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt". The colt is given great prominence, and I believe the voice of our own time is for the young brethren to come forward; but it will be a question of the Lord's selection; it is one whom He found.

Ques. Is it in accord with the whole gospel of John where it is a question of the sovereignty of God?

J.T. And also of qualifications in the persons selected.

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Rem. The Lord had already found others. In chapter 1 He found Philip, in chapter 9 the man who had been cast out. This young man is not the only one.

J.T. Another point to be noticed here is that the disciples were not fully intelligent as to what was occurring, so that we have nothing here about their clothes or garments. But there is remedy for ignorance. Even disciples according to John need to believe; they had not believed enough sometimes. In chapter 2 it is said that "this beginning of signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee ... and his disciples believed on him". They were His disciples, but they needed to believe more than they had believed. No doubt everyone here will admit that there is much we need yet to believe, and as believing it to understand it. The understanding of the disciples here is based on their knowledge of the fact of Christ being glorified.

Ques. In Luke it is the crowd of the disciples; here it is a large crowd praising. What is the difference?

J.T. The effect seems to be greater here. I think we have to bring the word 'glory' into all this. There was the glory of God and the glory of the Lord in the resurrection of Lazarus, and the effects of it are seen here; the disciples had to wait until Christ was glorified for a full understanding of what did happen. It is plain enough, therefore, that any defect in knowledge amongst us will be remedied as we see Christ glorified.

Ques. The disciples understood when they received the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Yes, but the stress is on Jesus glorified. That light is needed in our souls. The Spirit operates in relation to it.

Ques. Why is it not Jesus risen, but glorified?

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J.T. A comparison of the references to Christ's personal glory throughout this gospel would answer that in our souls.

Ques. In Matthew and Mark the praise is addressed to the Lord, in Luke to God; now here again in John it is addressed to the Lord; what does this mean?

J.T. Well, it is generally a question of God in Luke. Matthew and Mark open their gospels by introducing Christ personally, the first bringing out His royalty, the second His ministerial position. John insists on His deity.

Rem. Here, therefore, the emphasis is that He is glorified: "we see Jesus ... crowned with glory and honour" (Hebrews 2:9).

Rem. In Luke 24:25,26, the Lord says to the two of Emmaus, "O senseless and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into his glory?". Prophecy helps us to understand and to contemplate Jesus in glory.

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HOW GOD CARES FOR THE NEEDS OF HIS SERVANTS

1 Kings 17:1 - 16; 1 Kings 19:1 - 9

These passages speak of the food provided for Elijah on different occasions, the various ways by which it was secured for the prophet, as well as the instrumentalities employed by God -- first a brook, then ravens, next a widow woman, and finally an angel. The subject is rich in instruction, and the brethren will no doubt be turned to the Lord that the truth contained in these passages may be developed with profit.

Elijah is not to be regarded only as a prophet; he is also a man of God, and, by extension, he represents the testimony. He appears suddenly, no mention being made of his forefathers or of his genealogy, but speaking at once in power, saying to king Ahab: "As Jehovah the God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, except by my word". These were not mere words; these utterances were marked by moral authority, as coming from a man who had a history with God, if not with men. He is alone as he faces the monarch, and, what is more serious still, in confronting Jezebel. What exposure! The enemy would seize every opportunity of attacking him. And so, dear brethren, if any one of us in his measure, or all of us, represent God, we are correspondingly the objects of the attacks of the wicked one. Hence, Jehovah comes in at once; His words concern the prophet himself, his maintenance. Thus, as in the divine service, we must understand that God has spoken as to us, and He will speak about us to others, but He will speak to us also about ourselves, for we must know ourselves, and above all we must know that God cares for us, as we are told: "Casting all your care upon him; for he careth

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for you" (1 Peter 5:7). This applies to the most honoured servant as much as to the weakest saint; God cares for all, but in a special way for those in the forefront of God's service.

The first word addressed to Elijah is: "Get thee hence, and turn thee eastward". The question of locality comes in at once. Where shall I go? Am I to choose my locality, or is it to be divinely appointed? Obviously the latter. And then, am I to make a show of myself, to be known as specially sent by God and an object of His special care? Am I to be occupied with my greatness? Am I to occupy others with it? No: "Hide thyself by the brook Cherith"; that is to be a provision. I am not to assert my right to the torrent. It is not mine only; it is for others also. But I am to understand that all that God has given is to be accepted with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth. Elijah is also told: "Thou shalt drink of the brook". There is no question about it. "Let God be true, but every man a liar" (Romans 3:4). Let there be no legalism about it; "Thou shalt drink of the brook". And again: "I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there". A brook has been created by God; it is just water which flows by ordinary gravitation. But the raven was a living creature, an unclean creature, we say. But he was worthy to be taken by Noah into the ark. He did not behave well when he was set free by Noah, but he does here. Thus, dear brethren, we must look at things as God presents them to us, and not pretend that we know more than He does. He said: "I have commanded the ravens" -- not just one -- "to feed thee there", that is, in the place divinely appointed, not just anywhere. The prophet is not only the object of the care of God, but of His discipline. So that whatever his previous predilections or feelings, all that concerned him was determined by God.

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This is a most important lesson. Is it only for Elijah? No, it is for us. "Whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning" (Romans 15:4). I have to learn that God is sovereign. He is sovereign in the universe and He must be sovereign in my circumstances. It is told us in verse 5: "He went and did according unto the word of the Lord: for he went and dwelt by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan". There is no question as to the place; it is just what God had said; at the end of verse 3 it is said: "that is before Jordan". Let us learn, if we have not learned, to bring God into our circumstances and let Him be dominant in them. If we are to enter into what His love has so abundantly prepared for us, we must not depart from this principle. Everything here proceeds as divinely indicated: "The ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook". There is no modification of the circumstances to gratify nature, no human companionship; but it is the learning time, and he has divine companionship, as in the case of John the baptist in a later day. The Lord calls attention to him with peculiar pleasure: "What went ye out into the wilderness for to see?" (Luke 7:24). John corresponds with Elijah as we see him in these verses; he "was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel" (Luke 1:80).

Then we are told that "the brook dried up, because there had been no rain in the land". This shows that God had not made the brook for Elijah. No doubt it had dried up many times before. There is no miracle accomplished here. The servant and saint must learn to accept the divine provision as it is, and he has to learn deprivation. It is part of the divine instruction. God gives us to understand that we are dependent upon Him for everything. The apostle Paul had learnt not only how to abound

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but also to suffer need, but he had also learnt, as he says, to be content with his circumstances whatever they were. Thus a saint is made suitable to God, and a servant becomes a man of God.

Nothing more is said about the ravens; it is not said that they ceased to serve the prophet. Elijah goes away when the brook has dried up. But he is going to be promoted; he is going to be found in better circumstances; he is going to have human companionship, he is going to have cakes, prepared, may we say, by a sister, for this widow belonged to God. His circumstances are going to be changed; he will not only be with God now, but with the saints. Perhaps this peculiar training in isolation is teaching us to appreciate the company of the saints.

The widow of Sarepta had not much, but she was a sister, may we say, and she had a house, and a son, and a little meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse; although this was but little, it was of value; it was a provision. There were great possibilities in these vessels and in the little that they contained; but think of the possibilities in this sister! What will be the result? What will there be for God? I think there is here, dear brethren, a most remarkable lesson for us all -- to know how to value the company of the saints. Do not enquire as to their bank accounts, their businesses, or their natural connections. They are directly under divine command. Think of the greatness of a handful of saints under the command of God! Think what it is morally, the grandeur of it! God has the rivers under His hand, the clouds, all the birds, and all the animals; "the cattle upon a thousand hills" (Psalm 50:10) are His. But He has a company of saints in a town under His control; it is a matter of moral and dispensational importance. And what did He bid this woman do? If I have a house and the opportunity of receiving the saints, has God nothing to say to me on this subject? He

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will give me a commandment. He says: "I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain thee". And she was to sustain him there. God had this woman in the city of Sarepta. There were many cities in the world then without a woman like this. There are many cities in this country where there is no company of saints that God can command, and it is the same in all countries. But think of a company of saints in a city like this that God can command. Are we at His disposal? We could not exactly say that this widow was ready for the service which opened up to her. She would not have said to Elijah that Jehovah had commanded her to sustain him; indeed her remarks suggest otherwise. But the prophet knew who it was; he knew long before she did. Her thought was to die when she had eaten the little she had, a most inconsistent frame of mind. If we examine ourselves, dear brethren, we often find this kind of inconsistency in our thoughts.

When the prophet reached the city he did not need to enquire where the woman was; it seems that she was the first person he met. He said to her: "Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel that I may drink". It is no longer a brook, but a vessel brought to the prophet by the hand of a woman. When we take our place among the saints under divine command, we come into the sphere of vessels. The thought of vessels is extremely interesting; it is certainly a predominant thought in this passage. If this woman had not had this thought of vessels previously -- and it does not seem that she had -- she received this instruction now. As soon as a young christian comes to this in his own mind, he begins to ask himself about his public appearance. Is he conformed to this world? Is he a pure vessel? Is he a vessel to honour, ready for the Master's use? Evidently this woman had some feeble idea of the

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thing, and God was going to show her what use He could make of the vessels. We may ask ourselves: What do I possess that is worthy to be put into a vessel? This woman discovers that she has more than she thought she had. If I come into the understanding of command, I shall see that God brings about His commands. I say: "Here am I". God will look after the use of the vessel if the vessel is under His command. Scripture says very clearly that our bodies belong to the Lord, and we should possess them "in sanctification and honour" (1 Thessalonians 4:4). If they are ready for the Master's use, He will use them. Their contents depend upon the divine will.

If we realise this instruction, there will be no lack in our localities. The true difficulty lies in the state of the vessels. God has infinite resources, but He desires to make use of human vessels, and in the measure in which they are available He will use them. Thus the vessels, the barrel and the cruse, were used; they were not empty for a whole year and yet the whole household lived on their contents. Where did the meal and oil come from? They were as much under divine command as was the woman. Thus we see from this passage the answer to our local needs. It is a question of the state of the vessels -- are we possessing them as vessels to honour, that is to say, sanctified?

I have spoken of the fellowship, and we see how in a locality, if we are under divine command, instruction will lead to the assembly, to an understanding of the assembly. The prophet said to the widow, "Make me ... a little cake first, and bring it unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son". Thus as we are under command, the next thing is demand. "Make me a little cake first" -- this is a new lesson. It may seem unreasonable, but divine commands are always reasonable. We have to learn through them. The question arises here of what is

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going to happen during a long period to come; "The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the Lord sendeth rain upon the earth". So we see how divine demand following divine command leads to improved conditions spiritually. Provision is made for my needs, and I know it, until the famine is over. "She went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days. And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the Lord, which he spake by Elijah".

In this second divine provision for Elijah we have a remarkable combination of circumstances and line of teaching. It is a question of fellowship. We are brought into the fellowship of God's Son, which is for all the saints; we are together in this fellowship, and in this fellowship we receive the light of the assembly; this is suggested typically here in the "little cake". It is the thought of a whole. It gives the thought of sustenance, in the cake, but typically it has the sense of the Lord's words in connection with His supper: "Take, eat: this is my body". Elijah and the woman -- the mistress of the house, as she is later called -- and her son, can be in fellowship together. There is here an appeal to young people who are not yet in the fellowship of God's Son. It is worthy of your consideration. It is the place of divine command, for our will is not suffered there; but it is also a place of divine demands, and the demands bring out the thought of the assembly. Why should God not bring to light a hidden thought? It is in the fellowship that we find the hidden thoughts. We shall never possess these hidden thoughts until we come where they are to be found. In the assembly "are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge" (Colossians 2:3). Can you rest where these things are not known? In the fellowship of

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God's Son nothing is lacking. Think of the richness, the dignity, and the glory which belong to such a fellowship!

Let us consider for a moment the third kind of food provided for Elijah, as we see in chapter 19. We need human companionship; but the prophet Elijah, according to verse 3, left even his servant and went away alone. None of us can remain indefinitely alone in this world. We need the fellowship of the saints; that is why the Lord added to the church such as should be saved (Acts 2:47). But here, alas, Elijah, the great prophet, has left all this and gone away by himself into the desert. He had not been told to do it; it was his own movement; he goes at his own charges. He sits down under a juniper tree, and requests for himself that he may die. What sad language and what a sad position is Elijah's here! So is that of everyone, young or old, who chooses to leave the fellowship. If one does it because he is worldly, he will seek and find his companionship among the ungodly, sacrificing what is of true worth; if he is in measure true, moved by fear like Elijah here, he is alone, without strength and without divine sustenance. He seems to have lost all sense of the need of companionship; he had even left his servant at Beer-sheba. He undertook a long journey without any human companionship. He had no right to count on divine companionship for this journey, but he cannot dispose of it; thank God he could not leave it at Beer-sheba! But see what a descent since Sarepta! We find him like Hagar, in the desert of Beer-sheba; she too had wandered there, driven out of Abraham's house. Elijah is seated under the juniper tree; Hagar had thrown down her son under a tree of the same kind, that is to say she had cast her responsibility to the wind. One who does that is of no use morally. The assembly is composed of those who accept responsibility.

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The angel said to Hagar: "Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand" (Genesis 21:18), as if to say: You are responsible for this lad. So it is with Elijah; see what a service had been committed to him, but he had abandoned it. Think of that -- a man abandoning such a service as his! It may be that there are those here who have not accepted the responsibility of the little gathering in this city, failing to be found at the prayer meeting, for example, failing to take their part in that which concerns the testimony of God. Well, this is just what Elijah does here. He goes to Horeb to escape his mission.

God would show us that even in such circumstances He does not abandon us. To the Corinthians, who were refractory christians, the apostle three times repeats, "God is faithful" (1 Corinthians 1:9; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 2 Corinthians 1:18). Elijah proves it here. Like the widow of Sarepta, he would go away and die. How poor that is! But God said, I am going to preserve thy life. Indeed He had in mind to use him further. It is said, "An angel touched him"; this would suggest distance, but nevertheless care. Here also it is a question of a cake. Is not this a touching reminder, recalling to Elijah that he had spoken of a little cake before? It is as if God would say, I have not forgotten the cake. God had the idea from all eternity. He has hidden it through the ages, but He has never given it up. Nor has He given up what concerns this city. If any here is wandering, He would say to you, I have not given up My thoughts concerning you; you are essential to My greatest thoughts. It is thus that in the account of Elijah in the desert we find the cake again. Who had made it? Who had baked it? The angel touched him and said to him, "Arise and eat"; and the cake "baked on the coals" and the cruse of water were at his pillow. Elijah is recalled to the kind of care he had had at Sarepta. Instead of a cake prepared by the hand of a sister, it is now

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simply a cake "baked on the coals"; but nevertheless it is a cake and the angel said, "Arise and eat". God would thus say to him, You are giving up, Elijah, but I am not; I have not given up My thoughts; you are essential to them and I want to remind you -- I still need you. And the prophet ate and drank, then he laid him down again. Then we see that he woke a second time; the angel came again and touched him, and again he said to him: "Arise and eat". But nothing more is said about the cake. Instruction regarding this has been given to him once; now it concerns the journey that Elijah had undertaken and of the sustenance that was required by him in order to make it. God allowed him to take this way, and furnished him with all that was needed for the journey. God proposed to meet him at the end of it, and this is what He did, as the chapter shows. He gave His servant a task to accomplish; He told him to anoint three men: Hazael, Jehu and Elisha, who should fulfil the required service. It concerned judgment, but Elisha was first anointed, and his name signifies 'Whose salvation is God'. Grace intervenes before judgment was executed.

Thus we learn that, although God moves in grace and patience towards His servants, the result in them should be the effecting of His will.