Pages 1 - 129 -- "Divine Measure and Divine Pattern". Sweden, 1930 (Volume 189).

DIVINE MEASURE

Ephesians 4:13; Romans 12:3; 2 Corinthians 10:12, 13; Revelation 21:15 - 17

These scriptures speak of measure, in the first place as regards Christ, and then as regards the assembly, the measure of which corresponds to Christ. The question of measure is first seen in connection with material things. The whole creation was formed according to divine measure and weight, but in these scriptures we find that measure is applied to persons. We may say in truth that all men come under divine measuring. In Romans 3 it says: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". God has in Christ brought in a standard, and all are measured according to this, and, according to their natural condition, all come short before this standard. In spite of this, God has determined to bring men into correspondence with this standard (see Ephesians 4:13). It is to this end that Christ, since He has gone up on high, has given gifts. "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ".

We see thus that God has before Him a perfect or full-grown man; that is to say, a man who corresponds to His thoughts. It could never be said about Adam that he was full-grown, for there is nothing said about his growing. He was evidently created perfect, so that we have no thought of growth in Adam. Nor could we in a moral sense

speak of growth or development in Christ. In His Person, as represented here in testimony, He sets forth for us in a perfect way what man ought to be before God. The four gospels give us a fourfold and perfect presentation of Christ, and the epistles have in view to bring us to the same measure, so that growth has to do with our side. Therefore we find stressed in the epistles the need of growth. In 1 Peter 2 we are exhorted to desire earnestly the sincere milk of the word that we may grow. Like new-born babes we should be desirous of it, so that we by it might grow unto salvation. In all the epistles great stress is laid on the need of growth, and this is evidently because we commence as little children. We begin thus and grow up into manhood, and for this we need the service of the gifts, so that we together should reach the same measure of stature.

There ought in a spiritual sense be none undeveloped among the children of God. Christ as ascended into heaven has in view a perfect presentation of Himself in the saints as a whole. Therefore it says: "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ". And in the same epistle it says that the assembly is the fulness of Christ, which we see coming out in Revelation 21. It is no shame to be a little child to start with, since one has been born; that is to say, after our conversion, but it is a shame to be as little children when we have been converted a year. The secret of so much uncertainty and lack of satisfaction among the people of God is owing to the lack of growth.

When Abraham desired to get certainty regarding the fulfilment of the promises, God told him to present an offering, a heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years

old. He gave him to understand that if he desired to enjoy certainty, it was of moment to increase in growth. That these animals should be three years old implies that they were full-grown. This does not give the idea of a childish state in the believer. If we do not desire the sincere milk of the word, we shall remain little children. The Corinthians were babes and thus exposed to influences in this world; they were not in possession of the joy of salvation, because they had not grown to it. It says of some in Hebrews 5 that they were babes, when for the time they ought to be teachers. I believe, dear brethren, that if we should take up this question in earnest, each one of us should say of himself, 'I have been a babe for a long time; it is high time for me to be able to present a lamb of a year old'. We read of a day of extreme weakness in Israel when Samuel sacrificed a sucking lamb. This indicated an acknowledgement before God that the people were just like sucking children. What is there in babes that can defend and promote the testimony? What is there in such to save us from the sleight of men and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive, as it says in Ephesians 4?

The passover lamb was to be a year old, not a sucking lamb. This gives us the thought that when the Israelite left Egypt, or in other words, when a believer leaves the world behind him, he has grown somewhat. We ought to ask ourselves how much we have grown since we were converted. One has seen believers who have been converted twenty years, and who have not reached further in their souls than to a condition characterised by babyhood. We remember how Hannah every year when she went up to worship, brought with her a little coat for the boy Samuel. As the child grew he needed a larger coat. In a similar way as I draw near to God my sacrifice will be greater; that is to say, two or three

years old, as I increase in my soul. The bullock that Gideon sacrificed was to be seven years old, which shows that in a special case like that of Gideon, there was something more needed beyond ordinary maturity.

Now let us look at Romans 12. The epistle to the Romans is an epistle for the little children. I do not mean that any of us could ever do without this epistle, but that it contains what the little children are in need of. It was written by the apostle through divine inspiration to instruct believers in the truth of the gospel. We sometimes think that the gospel is for the unconverted only. It is for the unconverted surely, but Romans was not written for them, but for believers. It was written to the saints in Rome, who were hardly more than little children, and to the end that they might be instructed in the fundamental principles of the gospel, in order that they should be no more babes, but should grow up to Christ "from whom the whole body, fitted together, and connected by every joint of supply ... works for itself the increase of the body to its self-building up in love". The apostle desired that the saints in Rome should grow in the truth of the assembly, and that is why he wrote this wonderful epistle.

According to the gospel of Mark we see how the Lord Jesus in His first preaching said, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel". I am to believe first, and then I discover how much there is found in it. When we receive the gospel it is as if we received the promise of an inheritance. Romans shows me how rich the inheritance is. Now we can understand what the Lord meant when He said, "Believe the gospel". I say that I believe it, but I wish to know all that it implies, what riches are found in it. I freely admit that little children are very lovable; we see in them a freshness of life, as

is evident in the Thessalonians when Paul wrote to them. While we all will admit that such young believers are lovable, we do not wish them to remain undeveloped. In a family undeveloped children are a cause of sorrow and anxiety; it is the same in the family of God, and those who have stopped growing are a cause of sorrow to God, and anxiety to His people.

In order to grow, we need the sincere milk of the word, and fresh air; that is, the atmosphere that is found among the people of God, where the Spirit of God is at liberty. I also need light. These things come out in Romans. Beside other things we find in Romans the thought of measure. "For ... through the grace given unto me, ... as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith", Romans 12:3. Although Christ is the subject of the gospel, we find in these scriptures that I begin to look at myself. I have listened to the gospel, but the question is, Have I grown in my soul? Have we ever measured ourselves with Christ? The gospel presents Christ to me. It is God's glad tidings about His Son. I have listened to the gospel, but have I grown in my soul? I am perhaps familiar with the truth of the gospel and its mode of expression, but it may be only an outward knowledge, in the same way as one knows history.

There are those who study the Bible in the same way as they study history. At the universities this study is considered as a science, but such a study is not the means by which we grow in our souls. Christ is the measure of the soul's growth, and when I look at Christ, this involves much more than a mere knowledge of the doctrine. I am thinking of all the precious moral features that shine forth in Christ as He is presented in the four gospels. The meaning here is that when I think of myself I ought to think soberly and be wise, as God has dealt to me the

measure of faith. God gives us faith, and this involves more than to have knowledge of certain doctrines. The thought of measure here is the measure of faith.

It is not a question of being converted on such and such a day, or that you go to the meetings regularly, but I ask, What is your measure of faith? God gives each one a measure. Have you had to do with God in order to get this measure of faith? In the same way as when God created all things according to measure, He even now works in our souls according to measure; it is therefore important that I should ask myself, Have I received this measure of faith? In Matthew's gospel the Lord speaks of a little faith and of a great faith, and even of those who had no faith at all. "Without faith it is impossible to please him". We do not wish to be characterised as those who have little faith, but we ought to desire faith which is according to the divine measure for us.

We have a scripture in Exodus which is of help for us in this. We read of the measure of manna that every Israelite gathered daily (Exodus 16:18). This is very practical, for the measure of what a man eats in a spiritual sense shows in a significant way what his or her growth is. God has dealt to each the measure of faith, and He deals the measure for us to eat. He has a measurement for us each one, and I believe that the measure of faith in Romans 12 corresponds to the measure of manna that each one was to eat according to Exodus, the measure of what I can eat, what I can digest.

In 2 Corinthians 10 we see that the Corinthians were not characterised by this divine measure, for it says they were "measuring themselves by themselves"; we can understand how far they had departed from the divine principles which are given to us in Romans 12. If I measure myself with my

brethren or they compare themselves with me, we all have a wrong measure, and this is what they did at Corinth. It was as if a brother should say, 'I know just as much as this brother, or I can speak better than he'. We can understand how such measuring only gives cause for jealousy and degrades the people of God to the level of the world, for that is what they do in the world, they measure themselves by themselves. Now the apostle had a measure, he shows how he served according to the measure God had given to him; he served "according to the measure of the rule which the God of measure has apportioned to us", 2 Corinthians 10:13.

The last scripture we read from Revelation shows us how God reaches the end which is set before us in Ephesians. We find here that the reed was of gold; the measurement is wholly divine. God reaches here the result of the work which He has carried out during all these centuries. The reed was for measuring the city and its gates and wall. John goes on to say that "the city lies four-square, and its length is as much as the breadth". Looked upon from this point of view it was a quadrangle. That is to say, a measure which has length and breadth. So that from this point of view the city represents God in the universal attitude which He has taken up towards all men.

First of all the city is four-square; this is like the sheet that descended unto Peter and was knit at its four corners, indicating that the gospel is for all men, a thing that is true even of the assembly at this time. We ought in our minds to correspond to this measure which has length and breadth, the square measure. I believe God will help us to think of all men in an evangelical way and with compassion. We have length and breadth; this is the square measure. After having spoken of the length and breadth of the city, he now speaks of its height. We

have here the thought of a cube, or what we call cubic measure. It says -- "and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal". We may, through grace, in our minds have reached so far as to the square measure, but when we come to think of the height we must feel ashamed. It is thus we find from the book of Revelation that the full result of the work of God includes the height; the city is a cube; that is to say, it has six sides which shows that it is a measure which contains something; it is not only universal in its bearing, but it is filled with that which is of God, and that which is of His nature. It is very encouraging for us to consider this wonderful result of all the work of God. It encourages us to always abound in the work of the Lord, as Paul says: "knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord". If I consider the city according to its cubic measure I find that my work is not in vain in the Lord, for every little bit I can do contributes to fill up the whole.

DIVINE PATTERN

John 13:13 - 15; Exodus 21:1 - 6; Luke 7:44 - 47

These passages present to us the idea of a model or pattern. In moral things God works on the principle of a model or pattern. We cannot say that He worked on the principle of a model primarily in the physical creation, although He necessarily had a plan in His own mind. The word in Proverbs would indicate that He was the Artificer or Architect of the universe, and as the foundation was laid, the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy, so that evidently what was in the mind of God was understood by intelligent beings even then. Then in accordance with this, it is said, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God" (Hebrews 11:3), and further it is said, "He spake, and it was done" (Psalm 33:9); that is, His mind entered into it; all was done in divine wisdom.

When we come to moral things, we have a definite pattern indicated, and so in the book of Exodus the injunction is repeated, "See that thou make them according to their pattern ... shewn to thee in the mountain", Exodus 25:40. Hence no one but Moses really could construct the tabernacle. It was not simply a question of dimensions or measurements, but of the pattern, and the pattern was only seen by Moses. The dimensions were given, and the wise workmen that were employed knew what these measurements were, but measurements or dimensions are not a model or pattern. In the model or pattern of the tabernacle we have Christ personally indicated, and that, dear brethren, is what I wish we should have clearly before us in this meeting. Christianity is not simply a matter of doctrine or precepts; it includes all these things, but it contains what is substantial; that is, to say, what came out in the

Person of Christ here on earth. Hence in the epistle of John we have, "That which was from the beginning", 1 John 1:1. What is alluded to is the manifestation of life in a Man down here in this world before men's eyes, and it is from that model or pattern that God is working with all of us. God has brought in in Christ what represents His own mind, what is called the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ (Ephesians 4:13).

I suggested the passage in John 13 because it presents what I have been saying in the most concrete and touching manner. It is the Lord Jesus here in the character of the servant; the chapter presents Him in that way. He was sitting at table, and it was two days before the passover. He was not governed by ordinary religious customs in that which took place. In becoming Man He was to be a model, and so He was not restricted by current religious observances in what He was doing. God's thoughts, dear brethren, cannot be worked out in relation to humanly accepted religious customs. Judaism, indeed, had been ordained of God, but it had dropped to the level of an accepted worldly religion. So that in John the feasts are generally called the feasts of the Jews; they are not called 'feasts of Jehovah'. The Lord was not restricted by them, hence it is said in this chapter that it was before the passover, and what He does here is of Himself in the liberty of His own Person. In John He constantly speaks of Himself as coming into this world from God. He is here therefore in the liberty and dignity of His own Person as the Son of God, and all His works and services are in that liberty. Hence in this gospel He does not wait for John to be cast into prison before He begins to serve.

We have the Word become flesh -- the Son of God -- acting here in that dignity and liberty, God manifest in flesh. In a Man things are being worked

out according to God's eternal purpose, and according to His own nature. And so as sitting at table in the dignity of His Person, He lays aside His garments and takes a towel and girds Himself; He is taking on the attitude of a servant. Then He pours the water into a basin; He does it Himself, and moves around to wash the feet of His disciples. No high priest in Jerusalem, no Rabbi or Pharisee would do that. It was a new thing being introduced; it was an example or model. And so, having washed their feet He puts on His garments again and resumes His place at table. He thus takes on His dignity again so as to impress upon His disciples the lesson He intended to teach them. He says, "Ye call me the Teacher and the Lord, and ye say well, for I am so". He impresses upon them that whilst He did that wonderful act of devotedness, He was still the Teacher and the Lord, and they called Him these. Now then, He says (He transposes the words), "If I therefore, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet". He says further, "I have given you an example that, as I have done to you, ye should do also". You see dear brethren, He gives the example and then retires, as it were, into His own dignity and authority to enforce the lesson.

Authority may be irksome to a pupil, but at times it is most essential to the education of the pupil. That pupils or scholars should be allowed to learn as they please, or come and go to school as they please would be most disastrous as regards their education. Instruction requires authority in the teacher. It is really no hardship, but an element brought into the service which is most essential. Hence the Lord takes them up on their own profession; they called Him Teacher and Lord and He says, "I am so". That is, 'You call Me what you ought to call Me, what I am entitled to, but I am

not occupied with the dignity of it, but that you might learn your lesson'. He is the model and He is the Teacher; He uses Himself as the example, and He teaches us from that example. Nothing, dear brethren, is more detrimental to us as christians than the use of latitude and licence in the things of God. Many assume that our position in regard of the things of God is optional, but it is a vital mistake. God will never deal with us on optional lines; our God is said to be a consuming fire. It is not simply that God is that, but our God; that is to say, the God we know in Christ is a consuming fire, meaning that He will not tolerate our wills. So that it says, Let us have grace to serve God with reverence and godly fear (Hebrews 12:28). So here He says, 'Ye call Me Lord, and I am Lord, and what I say has the authority of the Lord'. So that He says, 'Ye ought, as I have washed your feet, to wash one another's feet'. That is to say, it is not that it is optional, that I may do it or I may not do it; I must do it. If I do not do it, I am disregarding the authority of the Lord, and yet I am calling Him Lord. As He says elsewhere, Why do ye call me Lord and do not the things that I say (Luke 6:46)?

Now I come to the well-known type in Exodus 21 -- the Hebrew servant -- and what is to be observed is that the law had just been given. Chapter 20 contains the ten commandments, and the next chapter contains the model as to how these commandments are kept. You will remember how in the New Testament it is said that love is the fulness of the law -- of the whole law (Romans 13:10), so that as God gives the law, He gives in the type an example as to how it is to be fulfilled. I am not wishing to suggest that we are under law -- although its righteous requirements are fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit -- but I am only calling attention to this type as illustrating

the idea of a model. God commands love in the law, and in the type in Exodus 21 we have one saying, "I love". God commands it, and we have Christ in type saying, "I love". And it is not simply saying it. He plainly says it, and He shows in the most positive way that He meant what He said. You see, the type means that Christ came in free, and He could have gone out free. As He came in from God, He could have gone out in the right of His own Person, but instead of that He plainly says, 'I love My master, My wife and My children'. Thus you see, dear brethren, alongside of law demanding love from man, God has set down a model of one who said, "I love", and who did love; He loved God, He loved His wife, and He loved His children; that is to say, you have ascending love, horizontal love, and descending love. You have thus the length, the breadth, the height and the depth in love; it is the perfect expression of love in Christ. He loved God; He would go down into death to fulfil the will of God. And so the wife, and so the children. He gave Himself for us; He loved the assembly and gave Himself for it, and also for the saints viewed as children. You see what a model we have here, and moreover we have the great principle I am seeking to emphasise, that if God brings in law demanding love, He shows you how the thing is answered to.

In the gospel of Luke I want to show how this may be seen in one christian in a locality. I want to show the importance of even one in a locality whom the Lord can call attention to as known in the locality. I do not know anything that one would covet more than to be a model that Christ can point to -- a model of the truth. You see, if things be not right locally, it is not simply that I am to say what is right, but to show what is right. Many can say what should be, but, you see, the principle is not in

saying what should be, but in being what should be. Hence the apostle Paul says to the Corinthians, "Yet shew I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence". Earlier he says, "For this reason I have sent to you Timotheus, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, who shall put you in mind of my ways as they are in Christ". Paul not only wrote the letter to tell them what to do, but he sent his child Timothy that he might exhibit in their very midst what was right. He says, "My child Timotheus", that is, the child was like the father; so that Paul, the father, representing Christ's authority, sent the child so that the Corinthians might see Paul's ways as they were in Christ.

If I were in Corinth at that time and had never seen Paul, and I went to enquire of some godly saint, What kind of a person is Paul? he would say to me, Well, the best illustration that I can give you of Paul is Timotheus. Then, if I wanted to know something of Paul, I would take good note of Timotheus. More than this, Christ is the image of God here; He brings God to us; we learn God in Christ. "No one has seen God at any time", but the Lord says, "He that has seen me has seen the Father". And so it is that the assembly is like Christ; it is the fulness of Christ. And in a smaller way, one saint who is in the power of the Spirit is like Christ. Hence, you see, in this woman in Luke 7, the Lord is calling attention to one person. It says, "He turned to the woman". If things are not right in a meeting and there be one who is right -- one who is walking with God -- the Lord will draw attention to him. Paul, for instance, says, "Ye became followers of us" but then he adds, "and of the Lord", for Paul never wished to be a party leader. He represented Christ and souls would follow him, but as they learned Christ in Paul, he would direct them to Christ. And so, dear brethren, the true way

of recovery in localities is by a model; that is, some person to whom the Lord can point as representing Him in some way.

In this chapter 7 the Lord turns to the woman; He turns to her as if His heart rested there. But then He says to Simon, "Seest thou this woman?". He called Simon's attention to her, but He was turned to her Himself. And so He goes on to call Simon's attention to what he should have done, but did not do, and the point is, that what others are not doing, am I doing? If there is one person who is carrying out the will of God, God can help others through that model. Now let us dwell for a moment on what this woman did. She represents, as I may say, what Luke's gospel would produce in us in a subjective way. Every book in Scripture is intended to present some feature of the truth, and usually the women that are presented in the book convey what is to be effected in the book, so that this woman may be taken to represent what Luke would bring about in our souls. What it says is that she loved much; it is not simply that she loved, but she loved much. If I have not got love, I have not anything spiritually. That is what the apostle says about love; he says, if I have not that, I have nothing. But with this woman it was not simply that she loved, but she loved much. And what was the evidence of it? That she had feelings and tears! Perhaps the scarcest thing amongst us is tears. I do not mean natural emotions; we are all capable of that, but this woman's tears were the fruit not of natural emotion, but of deep spiritual feelings. In a word they were the fruit of true self-judgment. She was forgiven much and the grace that brought forgiveness to her affected her heart; hence her tears are used to wash the Lord's feet. One would love to be able to convey the depth of the spiritual feeling expressed

in this woman. I dwell on this because we are so extremely superficial.

In moving about in this world and noting what exists among the saints, what one observes -- and one includes oneself -- is that we are so unfeeling, and hence there are no tears that can be put into God's bottle. There are doubtless plenty of tears in the world, for it is a world of woe, but tears that are fit for God's bottle are rare. But these tears were such; they were such as could wash the feet of the Lord. And then her hair is used to wipe His feet; it is the complete devotedness of all that she might treasure for the refreshment of Christ. And so the Lord goes over the ground pointing out that what Simon failed in, this woman provided; Christ was supreme in her heart; He had won a place down there in the very depths of it. And so He could turn to her and call attention to her; He says, "She loved much". And why? Because she was forgiven much! Luke gives us the effect of grace.

Well, dear brethren, that was all I had to present. I am sure you will see the force of it in localities in which the people of God are, how, if there be only one who is right with God, God can use that person as an example; He would call the attention of all the others to him. Matthew speaks about two -- "two of you" he says. There you have the principle that if two of you agree on earth as touching anything, they shall ask and it shall be done unto them. Thus you see how one or two in a locality may become under God the means of complete recovery.

LIBERTY

2 Corinthians 3:17; Mark 2:23 - 27; John 10:9

The subject I had in mind in reading these scriptures was liberty, the liberty wherewith Christ sets us free; and in which He desires us to stand fast. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty", 2 Corinthians 3:17. There is some difference in the expressions "the Spirit of the Lord", "the Spirit of Christ", and "the Spirit of Jesus". These expressions are all found in Scripture. The Spirit of Christ was active in the Old Testament times; Peter tells us this. It was the Spirit in which the Lord Jesus spoke to men before the flood. He spoke through Noah. Peter connects the Spirit of Christ with the testimony in the Old Testament. He says Christ was quickened by the Spirit by which also He went and preached to the disobedient when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah. He also mentions the prophets who spoke by the Spirit of Christ (1 Peter 1:11). These prophets inquired and searched "what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow", but he also says: "To whom it was revealed, that not to themselves but to you they ministered those things, which have now been announced to you by those who have declared to you the glad tidings by the Holy Spirit". The Spirit of Christ stands in relation to the testimony or ministry of the word, (1 Peter 1:12).

All ministry ought to be in the Spirit of Christ; it gives us the thought of the anointing, because Christ is the anointed One; He is God's Anointed. "The Spirit of Jesus" speaks of what the Lord was as Man on earth. We read of how the Spirit of Jesus forbad the apostle Paul to go from Asia into Bithynia (Acts 16:7).

The name of Jesus speaks of what He is for all men. The Lord desired the gospel to be preached in Europe and not to be limited to any special province. "Jesus" is His personal name and speaks of His interest in men. "The Spirit of Jesus" seems to be most prominent in the gospel of Luke, whereas "the Spirit of Christ" relates more to Mark's gospel and "the Spirit of the Lord" to Matthew, for there He is King. We have His generation in Matthew to show how He is King. The wise men from the East asked: "Where is he that is born King of the Jews?". In Matthew 5, 6 and 7 the Lord often emphasises His words by: "I say unto you", pointing to His own authority, but I think the expression "The Spirit of the Lord" also indicates something very precious, namely what we find in 2 Corinthians 3:17, where the word "the Spirit of the Lord" speaks of what is living; "The Lord is the Spirit". The Spirit of the Lord is the Spirit of christianity, and "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty".

We find here the authority, which brings the love of God into our hearts. In order to bring about this state in us the Lord Jesus uses His authority sometimes perhaps through severe discipline, but all is in view of us getting the love of God into our hearts. "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth". Thus we find that through the Spirit of the Lord we have liberty now with unveiled face to behold the glory of the Lord. There exists no veil over His face at this time; the veil is on the hearts of the Jews now. But we behold the glory in the face of Christ; we have liberty to do so, and we love to do it as it is the most delightful face in the whole universe. We do not fear to look upon it, although He is God. In a day to come when He shall sit upon the great white throne, His face will be severe and dismissing, for then He shall judge all who have rejected Him.

John says, "I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled", Revelation 20:11. But how different His face appears now! How gentle and attractive! It shines with the glory and love of God, and we are changed into the same image while we are looking at it. This shows clearly that where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

In Mark 2 we find how the believers come into this liberty in a practical way. There the Lord leads them into liberty, and we learn it from what He did when He went through the cornfield. It was not accidental. He went through on purpose. It does not say that the Lord Himself plucked the ears of corn, but He went that way so that the disciples should get the liberty to do so, although it was sabbath. The sabbath, as we all know, was a symbol of the old covenant, and many at that time insisted upon the sabbath being hallowed in order to keep the people in bondage. But the Lord would lead His disciples out of this bondage into the liberty that He had brought about. He could say: "The Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath". "The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof". He had now in mind to lead His people into liberty by Himself going through the cornfields.

The same bondage exists now in the systems of men, but the Lord will show us a way out from them, the way of liberty. So the disciples do as the Lord does, but they do more than just follow Him; they pluck the ears of corn and eat. Is it not the Spirit of the Lord who is leading here? Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty, not liberty for the flesh, nor liberty to go into the world, but liberty to enjoy what God has provided for us. We are not bound by religious forms and ceremonies; the apostle says, "For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with

thanksgiving". And even far more than this, we are free to enjoy all that God gives us in Christ, apart from every human organisation. That is the reason why we do not keep the sabbath now, for we are not under law, but under grace. The Lord has Himself broken down these hindrances and barriers. If we knew and enjoyed this liberty more, our meetings would be more characterised by the Spirit of the Lord, and not by the spirit of the world.

The apostle reminds the Corinthians of what was theirs, saying, "All are yours; and ye are Christ's, and Christ is God's", 1 Corinthians 3:22. We are now brought into a wonderful sphere of blessing. Human leaders would contradict these things. They would say we ought to acknowledge the laws and statutes of the different systems, but during more than a hundred years there has been strife between these people's decisions and the liberty which the Lord has brought about, and we ought to hold fast this liberty. Christ was Lord even of the sabbath, and when the Pharisees accused the disciples, He reminds them of what David did. The shewbread was solely for the priests to eat, but when David, the rightful king, fled before Saul, the king whom God had rejected, of what use were these things? Everything was in disorder and ruin. David acted here in the Spirit of the Lord, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. The Son of man is Lord of the sabbath. We see in the Old Testament why the sabbath was instituted. It stood as a symbol or seal on the old covenant; it was made for man, and not man for the sabbath. The Son of man is able to bring in the sabbath in a new way. God has first to show us its proper meaning. He will bring in the sabbath in an entirely new way in a day to come.

In John 10 the Lord points to Himself as the good Shepherd and likewise as the door of the sheep. In Mark 2 this liberty was brought in in view of helping

the disciples out of bondage, but here in John 10 we are led in to Him. This liberty can only be reached through Christ, for He is the door, and He has pasture for the sheep; they "shall go in and out, and find pasture", John 10:9. It is a liberated soul whom the Lord describes here. He can depend upon such an one, and allow him to go in and go out and find pasture. How much has not the Lord Jesus done in order that we may find this liberty, enjoy it, and maintain it!

THE ABUNDANCE OF THE SEA, THE SPHERE FOR THE GOSPEL

2 Chronicles 8:17, 18; Mark 1:16 - 20; Mark 2:13, 14; Mark 3:7; Mark 4:1; Mark 6:47 - 51

We find the sea mentioned in these scriptures. The sea gives us the idea that there is much to be found beyond what we can see, and much that lies hidden in the deep. In Psalm 104:25 we read: "Yonder is the great and wide sea: therein are moving things innumerable, living creatures small and great". When we behold the sea, we are reminded of the immense resources which lie hidden in it. The Lord shows in His service that although the sea in its extent surpasses the knowledge of man, it does not surpass His, for He can bring to light the very fish that had a piece of money in its mouth. This speaks of how the riches of the sea are at the disposal of the Lord Jesus.

We read in 2 Chronicles 8 how Solomon went to Ezion-geber at the sea side to the east of the Red Sea, from whence the sea expanded into unknown, immense oceans. Hiram, king of Tyre, sent, for his help, servants that had knowledge of the sea. Hiram had these skilled servants at his disposal. All this speaks in type of Christ in glory with all the possibilities in His hand to fetch the treasures from the sea. I have read this in order to show the import of Christ's service according to Mark, where I believe we find Him more often working by the sea than in the other gospels. The sea in Scripture is used in type with several different meanings. I am speaking of it now as the great realm where there are resources and where Christ is active to gain the riches which He is seeking.

We find Him first walking by the sea. The believer knows who Christ is; the Creator of all things, as Jonah says: "The God of the heavens, who hath

made the sea and the dry land". Jonah mentions the sea first, it was in the sea that God then intended to work, and Jonah experienced in the sea what the Lord's discipline and instruction implied. The sea swarmed with living animals, both great and small, but Jehovah prepared a great fish, which was to swallow Jonah. This fish, which carried Jonah in its belly, testifies to the power of the will of God in the heart of the sea, for God commanded the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land, showing that if the power of man is limited, God's power is unlimited. His will is carried out in the deep. Jonah says he "went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the bars of the earth closed upon me for ever". But if the will of God brought him so low down, it also brought him back upon the dry land. The believer knows Jesus as the Creator of the sea. The sea is His, and He made it. How precious to see Him walking by the sea!

Simon and Andrew are casting out their nets in the sea, and as they do, so the Lord says: "Come after me, and I will make you become fishers of men". We find at the beginning of Mark's gospel that the thought of the sea connects itself with the fishing for men in all the wide world. It is no question of Jews, Greeks or Romans, but of men. And the sea reminds us that we must not be limited. God is not limited through the sea to any special nation. He has scattered men over the whole surface of the earth, and for that reason this fishing for men continues.

This instruction in connection with the sea liberates us from being limited to some special nation. As those who have received light, we do not wish that the dividing of the world into different nations should cease. It was God who at Babel divided up mankind into nations. As long as this condition of things exists, the world's power is weakened. The

more men are united, the greater is the power of evil. While we who believe acknowledge this, we do not wish to be governed by national feelings. God keeps the nations divided as long as mankind is away from Him, but God maintains unity amongst His people. In new creation there is neither Jew nor Greek; we are all one in Christ Jesus, for we are all God's sons through faith in Christ Jesus. As believers we are thinking of all men, not of special nations. Paul says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus".

We see now how Simon and Andrew left their nets and followed Him. They left what seemed necessary for their subsistence and life here on earth. Later on the Lord proceeds and finds James and John; who were mending their nets. Even they had that which occupied them. We find thus, dear brethren, that when it is a question of being labourers for the Lord, we ought to know about the sea; we should be like Hiram's men, those who had knowledge of the sea. The thought is that we do something, and do it well. The Lord will not use those who are lazy, but such as are diligent, for we ought to be diligent in His service. These two, James and John, left their father Zebedee with the hired servants in the boat. That he had hired servants would suggest a higher position than Peter had, but they left their father with the hired servants and followed Jesus.

In the second chapter it says that the Lord went out again by the sea (verse 13). We have something more to learn in connection with the sea, we need constantly to be instructed as long as we are here. In Luke's gospel we see the Lord's patience in instructing us. The Lord went forth and saw Levi, the son of Alphaeus, sitting at the receipt of custom and said unto him, "Follow me". The Lord, no

doubt, passed by many, but He saw Levi. Levi was taken up with the things concerning the earth; he was not occupied with the sea. It is easy for us to become influenced by that with which we are occupied, our business and so on, but the Lord would make us interested in the sea, and will remind us of the greatness of the sphere wherein He is active. Our own little circle is too narrow, it may be our family circle, our business or our native country.

The Lord calls us away from every circle in order to link us together with the sea. And Levi follows Him; he leaves his place by the custom table, which all belongs to the earth, and follows the Lord. He even makes a feast for the Lord and invites such as the Lord would wish to meet. He invited many, as we find "there was a great crowd of tax-gatherers and others who were at table with them". We find that Levi had caught the Lord's thought. It was this kind of people the Lord had come to seek. Levi understood how the Lord, so to speak, was fishing for men, and Levi gathered them in his house. Thus we see that the Lord had won a valuable workman in Levi, for he had a house, and this house was at the disposal of the Lord. He had not invited his associates, but publicans and sinners, and they were many. In this incident we see how the Lord in Mark's gospel draws us to His side in connection with what He is doing. I need not say that the Lord even here will lay it to our hearts to gather souls to listen to the gospel. Not only I myself but also my house should be at the disposal of the Lord.

The third scripture I read is in chapter 3: 7. As we are thus evangelical and like Levi we open our houses, we have another lesson to learn; that is, to be separate. It says the Lord withdrew with His disciples to the sea. A condition of deadly opposition had arisen against Christ. In verse 6 it says "the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took

counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him". When opposition arises the only thing to do is to withdraw. So that while we are evangelical and think of all men, we could not continue with a world that is at enmity with Christ. The Lord Jesus withdrew with His disciples to the sea, and it says that a great multitude followed Him from Galilee and from Judaea. Although the Lord withdrew with His disciples from the Pharisees, His place is continually by the sea. The abundance of the sea is in view. If some rejected Christ, others should receive Him. We need not fear that when we separate from evil, that the work of the Lord will cease.

At the end of chapter 4 the Lord exhorts His disciples to pass on to the other side. We all remember the passage and how a storm arose on the way. We are instructed here as to the power of Christ over the agitated sea. In chapter 3 we see the conspiracy of the Herodians against the Lord. The Herodians constituted a certain party amongst the people. In chapter 4 a great storm of wind arose. There is not only a certain class of people who withstood Christ, but men as a whole, driven by evil spirits. It is a very solemn consideration, that in spite of all men being in view in the gospel, they are all at the same time capable of being influenced by the power of Satan. In that way a general opposition to the truth may arise, not only from the religious leaders, but all men may be opposers. In chapter 4 we have the power of Christ over such a condition of things. He did not work any change in the Pharisees or the Herodians, but He rebuked the sea, so that its riches could afresh be fetched from it.

We find in the first part of chapter 4 that the Lord once more begins to teach by the sea. "And a great crowd was gathered together to him, so that going on board ship he sat in the sea". We find in this

teaching of His another deep instruction; that is, about the sower who went out to sow. Of all the different grounds where the word of God was sown, only one bore fruit, but this latter yielded much fruit, and for this reason was very encouraging. It brought forth some thirty, and some sixty, and some a hundredfold. In the gospel of Mark we find the result of sowing is increasing, and in spite of the opposition, God's work in souls bore fruit. In Mark's gospel we are drawn to the Lord's side in this wonderful service, and how great is its result!

In chapter 6 we find a last instruction. In verse 46 we see how He departed into a mountain to pray, and when even was come, the ship was in the midst of the sea, and He saw them being in trouble, but He was praying for them, and about the fourth watch of the night He comes to them walking on the sea. They were in distress on the journey, for the wind was contrary. This last instruction is that we are now on the sea alone, and the Lord is on the mount praying. They laboured hard in rowing, toiling to get along, for the wind was contrary. I believe that all who have something to do in the service of the Lord know about this labour, to work when the wind is contrary. It is not like what we have in the fourth chapter where a sudden storm of wind arose, but here the wind was contrary, and at the fourth watch of the night, the Lord came walking on the sea. He is a pattern for us. He shows how we might go on and be superior to existing opposition and reach the other side.

I believe that what we have considered together corresponds to Solomon's enterprises in the sea; we see what riches he fetched from it, and this will encourage us in the little service we might take on in connection with the sea in a sphere where everything is against us, so that the Lord might have gain through it. We either make progress, dear brethren,

or we go backward in our souls. Spiritual riches are the result of the brethren making progress in spite of hostile influences; they go on in the light of the present dispensation, which speaks of God having blessing for all men and that God's desire is that His house may be enriched by new material being brought in. If no new riches or new material are brought into the house, we shall decrease and die out. But the abundance of the sea is endless. In learning from the Lord how He worked by the sea, we should by His help gain riches for the house of God.

THE HOLY SPIRIT AND HIS SERVICE (1)

Genesis 49:22 - 24; Exodus 2:15 - 22

J.T. In this scripture we find Joseph as a type of Christ enthroned in heaven, as Peter says: "Having therefore been exalted by the right hand of God, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which ye behold and hear", Acts 2:33. He is, so to speak, "a fruitful bough by a well; his branches shoot over the wall". Peter says to those who were convicted, "For to you is the promise and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God may call". Thus the branches were to shoot over the wall. In Exodus 2 we find Moses was to be used in connection with the administration in the kingdom of God. He sits by the well, like the great Meditator of whom we read later in John 4:6. His sitting by the well indicates how He would make the water available for the people of God. The Lord Jesus says: "The water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life". Christ has made the source available, but He even works so that it springs up in the people of God. I have thought of this scripture in the light of what is said in Zechariah: "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith Jehovah of hosts", Zechariah 4:6. We understand from this that what characterised saints at the beginning ought to characterise them at the end. In Joseph we have a type of Christ as the one who bore fruit, and in Moses a type of Christ as the one who carries on administration.

Ques. Do we find in Moses one who removed the hindrances for God's people to obtain water?

J.T. Yes, this is what comes out in Exodus 2. He is sitting at the well. He said in effect: There is no power in the flesh. In Egypt Moses had killed

the Egyptian, but now he is sitting at the well; he acknowledges that it is not through one's own power but by God's Spirit that deliverance is to be brought in.

Rem. The Lord sat by the well in John 4 when He spoke about living water.

J.T. Yes, I was just thinking of that. Tell us something about this.

Rem. I thought that the Lord was then sitting by the well, but now He is sitting above and gives living water.

J.T. Yes, quite so. On the one hand He corresponds to Joseph, and on the other He answers to Moses as the one who carries on administration and gives the living water. In John 4 He says: "The water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life". This implies that the Holy Spirit which is given by Christ is to be the power which of itself is active in the believer. It is the Spirit's delivering power. The Spirit is even the power to enjoy, and the power for worship. In John 7 it says: "If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water". The Spirit is the power for testimony. He flows like rivers from the believer.

Ques. When it says: "Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts", does this mean what the Spirit works subjectively in the believer?

J.T. You refer to Zechariah 4, but there it has more to do with our activity and our service and corresponds more to John 7 than John 4. The prophet goes on to speak of how Zerubbabel was to lay the foundation and bring forth the headstone. Thus it is guidance for all who serve to understand that all service must be carried on in the power of the Spirit and not through our natural gifts.

Ques. Can this be so without a work first having taken place in the servant?

J.T. No, that is why we find in John 4 the Spirit's work in the believer, and then in John 7 the Spirit's work through the believer in connection with testimony.

Ques. What is the difference between the Spirit and the living water?

J.T. I believe that the living water is a type of the Spirit, looked upon as the power in the believer for deliverance and satisfaction.

Ques. Is it possible to have the Spirit without having the living water?

J.T. I believe it is possible to have the Spirit without comprehending what He is as the living water, as this type implies, that the Spirit has commenced to work in my soul. When the believer begins to understand how this power is working of itself within him, then it is that the living water is understood. As regards our natural bodies we know that we have such organs that work independently. If I wish to move my hand, it is the result of my will, but there are organs which work independently without the aid of the will, the heart for instance works automatically without co-operation of my will. Thus we have in our bodies what serves to illustrate the Spirit's activity in our souls.

Ques. Can we suppose that the Spirit is active without any desires on our side?

J.T. I believe the Spirit produces desires and works through these. The way in which He is active corresponds to what we see in our natural bodies when life finds its expression through the automatic organs of our bodies. As regards our natural bodies we cannot explain how life is active, but we are all the same conscious of its movements. It was in this way the Lord spoke about new birth in John's gospel. Without explaining it the Lord spoke about

it. He says: "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, or whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit". In chapter 4 the Lord sets forth something more when He speaks of what the Holy Spirit works in him who is born again, and He says that He shall be in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. The Lord does not speak of what the believer does through the Spirit, but of what the Holy Spirit Himself works out in him.

Ques. But this implies that our state is good?

J.T. Yes, but we are speaking of the Spirit's work when everything is normal, but in the epistles to the Corinthians and the Galatians we find how we may begin in the Spirit and fall back to the level of the flesh, and then we are not much better than such who have never received the Spirit. True, the Spirit never leaves us, but we are not conscious of His work in us, and there is no springing up into everlasting life, neither does any testimony ensue.

Ques. Was this what characterised the children of Israel before they reached the brazen serpent?

J.T. Yes, for in spite of the Holy Spirit being in type with the people in Exodus 17 it was not characteristic of them before they reached the springing well, where, as it says in Numbers 21, they sang. In Exodus 17 the rock was smitten and the water flowed, and there Amalek began warring against them. This corresponds to what we find in the epistle to the Galatians: "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh". But in Numbers 21 we find that they had to dig. It says, "The princes digged the well, the nobles of the people digged it, by the direction of the lawgiver". It is under the lead and authority of the Lord Jesus in spiritual power that the sand in us is removed. The believer begins to realise that he must

not give place to the flesh; he must refuse to give it a place if he is to come into the good of what the Spirit is. Therefore it says, "Spring up, O well; sing ye unto it". The people now go forward, the murmuring ceases, and they go steadily towards the goal which God in His purpose had for them.

Ques. Does this correspond to the 'height measure' which we heard of yesterday in connection with a cube?

J.T. It leads on to it, that is to say to the height of the epistle to the Ephesians. The saints are looked upon there, not as babes, but as full-grown; they were men.

Ques. In which way did the Spirit work in the Israelites, was it in a subjective way in their souls, as the Spirit works now?

J.T. Of course it is the type which we are thinking of now. The children of Israel were brought up from Egypt through the wilderness to the land of Canaan by the power of angels; but at the same time as it was through the power of angels it was a type of the Spirit. The dispensation under law was mainly through the co-operation of angels, but as to our own dispensation it is the economy of the Spirit. There is a great difference, for we have not only the Spirit as power of life, but He is at the same time in us the Spirit of adoption.

Ques. Is it the same Spirit in connection with sonship as in connection with life?

J.T. It is the same Spirit, but looked upon from two different sides. It is remarkable that it says in John 7:39, "The Spirit was not yet". The Spirit was present when God garnished the heavens (Job 6:13). We read also that "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters", Genesis 1:2. It was even through Him the prophets spake. We find that Othniel as well as Samson were moved by the Spirit of God. David prays in Psalm 51, "Take not thy

holy spirit from me". The Spirit was, as we see, active in former times, although it says that "the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified". The thought is that the dispensation in which we live is something special: it is the Spirit's dispensation. It is not now a question of the Spirit coming upon a man and then leaving him, as we find in the Old Testament, but the Spirit sent down by Jesus in glory. It is the Spirit in a Man which has been given to men. We ought to know the import of this. The Holy Spirit is not only a Person in the Godhead. He is that, but He is in a Man in heaven, and as such He has been given to men down here.

Rem. He is more than an influence in us.

J.T. He is a divine Person, but in a Man, that is in Christ in heaven. He received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit which He has shed forth (Acts 2:33). When the Lord was thirty years old the heaven was opened over Him, and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove and remained upon Him. We see there how the Spirit came upon Jesus, in a bodily shape. The Spirit was there in His entirety, but He was on Jesus only. On account of redemption and of Jesus having gone up to heaven, the Holy Spirit has come down. The Holy Spirit, as He is in that Man, is the One who is now in the saints here. There is thus a difference between the presence of the Spirit in the saints of the Old Testament and the way in which He now indwells the believer. He is of course the same Person, but we see Him first in Christ, in Another of the Persons of the Godhead, and then He takes up His abode among men as sent down from Christ, the exalted Man in heaven.

Ques. Has the assembly received the Spirit in the same way as Christ received Him; that is, the Spirit in His entirety, or is it only that each one receives Him?

J.T. The Holy Spirit is now personally here on earth as He came bodily on Jesus. He came down at Pentecost in His entirety. That is the reason why the Lord speaks of Him as another Comforter; He is a divine Person down here. It is to be noted that He is here as the One who in His entirety was in the Lord Jesus when He was on earth. Therefore it says in John 3:34: "God giveth not the Spirit by measure". This points to His coming upon Jesus as well as His coming upon the saints.

Ques. What is the difference between the pouring out of the Spirit and His coming upon a believer?

J.T. These two things happened at one and the same time. It says that at the day of Pentecost they were all with one accord in one place. "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, ... and there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them". We see that He came in this way in His entirety. He came upon the whole company, but He sat upon each one of them.

Rem. I was thinking of Titus 3:6, "which he shed on us abundantly".

J.T. That refers to what happened at the day of Pentecost, and the continuation of it was in the house of Cornelius as we read in Acts 10:44, where it says that the Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the word. This time He came not from heaven, for there is only one coming down of the Spirit, and that on the day of Pentecost. When He fell on the gentiles in the house of Cornelius, He was already here on earth. Therefore when the believer receives the Holy Spirit at the present time, he receives what is already here, and what has been here since the day of Pentecost.

Rem. It is therefore not right now to pray for the Spirit to be sent as the Spirit is already here?

J.T. Quite so, and that is why Paul says to the Corinthians: "And have been all made to drink into one Spirit". This last is what we ourselves do. Baptism is what another does, but the drinking is what I do myself. The Spirit of which I drink has been here all these hundreds of years.

Ques. What does this expression "a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life", mean? Does it allude to the assembly?

J.T. I believe it has its beginning in the assembly. It shows that eternal life is an objective thought. It is something into which we can enter. I believe we enjoy eternal life together with one another. The testimony is that God has given us eternal life. But then the question arises: Where is it? It is not in me, but in His Son. It is placed in the Son of God.

Ques. If it is in the Son of God, how can it be in the assembly?

J.T. Because the assembly at this time constitutes a sphere where eternal life can subsist. In the world there is no such condition found which is essential for life. In a coming day, in the millennium, there will be a state of things where eternal life can be enjoyed, but this state, which will be public in the world to come, is found already among the people of God.

Ques. If we enjoy it now in the assembly, can we not enjoy it individually in company with the Son of God?

J.T. I do not think that that is the thought. You may enjoy the light of it and know that it is found in the Son, where it is presented for faith. What the saints enjoy down here however is not only by faith, but in the power of the Spirit. Let us suppose that no other believers were found in the world, and that you were the only one that had received the Spirit; eternal life would still be found in God's Son, just as much as if there were ever so many

believers in the world. The Son of God, however, is no longer on earth, but He is in heaven, and I alone am not sufficient that eternal life should be found here. It needs a company large enough for the Spirit's presence, so that conditions for eternal life might be found; that is to say, practical righteousness, love, light, and personal intercourse. All these things constitute a condition in which life shall be found. Such a condition is not found in the world at this time, but in a day to come these things will be found here in the world. In the meantime we can find them here through the Spirit's presence and activity.

Ques. Must we not be two or three to have a condition where eternal life is found?

J.T. Yes, that is very important to see. I hope the brethren will get a clearer apprehension of this.

Rem. If believers do not walk in unity this will be a hindrance for the enjoyment of eternal life, however many they may be.

J.T. Yes, that is true, and that is why we find in Psalm 133 a condition necessary for this, namely brethren dwelling together in unity. "For there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore". Life is in Christ, the Son of God, but we can only enjoy this here under certain conditions, and it is only in the assembly that these conditions are to be found now. The more we are found together in righteousness and love, the more we shall enjoy the reality of this life.

Ques. Is it a question of the local assemblies or the assembly as a whole?

J.T. It is where the saints are gathered. We are breathing the atmosphere of life in this room. To speak simply, there is in this room a spiritual atmosphere which is the opposite of what is found in the world. We may not perhaps be able to explain

it, but we know that we are breathing a holy atmosphere.

Ques. What is the difference between life and eternal life?

J.T. In John's epistle we hardly find any difference between these, but in Romans the difference is very obvious. In Romans eternal life is mentioned before the subject of life is presented. We find in Romans 5, that eternal life has come through Jesus Christ, our Lord; in chapter 6 it says that it is in Christ Jesus, our Lord. Chapter 5 shows us how it has come to us, whereas chapter 6 shows where it is found. The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus, our Lord. In chapter 8 we find the subject of life mentioned first, as in verse 10: "the Spirit is life". In this case the word life involves a power in the believer. It contemplates him walking in practical righteousness, and I believe, therefore, that Romans shows us the difference between life and eternal life. The fifth chapter of John is very much like John's epistle where these two ideas, life and eternal life, often have the same meaning. "Ye will not come to me that ye might have life". Life here means eternal life.

THE HOLY SPIRIT AND HIS SERVICE (2)

Exodus 2:15; Exodus 3:1 - 6; Exodus 15:27; Numbers 21:16 - 20

J.T. We have considered Joseph of whom it says in Genesis 49"Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well". He is a type of Christ as the One who sits at God's right hand having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit. Thus the Spirit is here in the assembly; but there is even a service which makes it possible that the Spirit and all that He is can be available and operative among the people of God. Only the Father or Christ can give the Holy Spirit. But we have the ministry of the word in order that the Holy Spirit might be enjoyed and be for refreshment and power in the souls of the people of God.

In Exodus we find Moses as a type of Christ, but at the same time he is a pattern for others who serve the people of God, or for one who has a place as a leader in the house of God. We see him in Exodus 2 as an administrator. Every country, as we know, has its laws and its state system, but there is also a government for the country, an administration. It is through this administration that its resources are taken possession of and administered in a way that furthers the welfare of the country.

The principles on which the present marvellous dispensation is founded rest on Christ being in heaven after having completed the work of redemption, and on the Holy Spirit down here forming the assembly. But Christ as Lord, and the gifts and leaders which He has given, constitute an administration through which the people of God might come into the good of the kingdom. It is obvious that it is not sufficient to know about the Spirit's presence, we are to get the good of His presence among us here. We find Moses here sitting by the well; he is a type of a man who understands that there is power down

here, and he wishes this power to be of benefit. The seven daughters of Reuel came to the well to draw water for their father's sheep; and they fill the troughs. They could do so much, but it says that the shepherds drove them away. More than these women were needed to draw water for the sheep. We might consider Reuel's seven daughters as a type of the saints. They had brought their father's sheep there to water them, and they drew the water, but they were unable to water the sheep, for others came and drove them away. Then it was that Moses appeared. He helped these women to water the sheep. We see in this incident what God has provided for His people that His flock might drink of the well. God has such at the present time to whom He entrusts the administration.

Ques. How do you connect this with the thought of the presence of the Holy Spirit?

J.T. I wished first to show that there are those who administer. God's people need to be aware that Christ as the One who has ascended to heaven has given gifts to men. These gifts are true christians who themselves have received the Holy Spirit. There are men who have a place of reputation in the many systems of christendom, and who have not the Holy Spirit. Such a one is not sitting at the well, so to speak. No unconverted pastor or parson, educated or gifted as he may be, can help the people of God to get what is found in the well. Moses represents one who can help the people of God. It says he helped the women to water their sheep. Later on we find in Exodus 3, that Moses led the sheep westward into the desert and came to the mountain of God, to Horeb. He did not lead them into the world, but he led them into the desert, to the mountain of God, the place where divine supplies were found.

Ques. How can the people of God be brought into the desert and have these supplies?

J.T. Every one who has learnt from Christ will, as far as he is able, lead the people of God to the place where divine supplies are found. In the gospel of Mark we find that when the opposition against Christ began to show itself, He withdrew with His disciples to the sea. This is the principle, to separate the disciples. Later it says that He went up into the mountain and called unto Him whom He would, and He ordained twelve that they should be with Him, and that He might send them forth to preach. These who had been with Christ on the mountain would know His way of carrying out service. Such servants would lead the flock far away from this world to the place where divine supplies are found. It was said in Genesis 22, "On the mount of Jehovah will be provided", and we find later that it was on the mountain of Jehovah where His wonderful instruction about the tabernacle was given. The mount of Jehovah is that which can make His people independent of the world. We do not need church buildings or schools for educating preachers for this service; all such things are part of this world and are quite unnecessary for the service of God. Moses, as sitting at the well, shows in type what this service implies that can lead the people of God into the good of all that which the Holy Spirit has for us.

Ques. Do we not see in the shepherds a contrary principle to what comes out in Moses?

J.T. That is important to see. We find in the gospels that which would correspond to these shepherds, those who prevented the women from watering their sheep. When the Lord healed the woman who had been bowed together eighteen years, we find that those who were looked up to in the synagogue withstood Him and criticised Him. We find the same thing many times in the gospels. The religious leaders were opposed to Christ, but the Lord was concerned about leading others into the good of

all that God had for man. Now after He has died and ascended to heaven He has sent down the Holy Spirit, and He has given gifts to men, so that the saints might come into the good of the Spirit's presence. There are at this present time religious leaders who would hinder the saints from entering into and enjoying God's things through the Spirit.

Rem. Paul was one who separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus (Acts 19).

J.T. This is a good application. This incident is mentioned after twelve men at the same time had received the Holy Spirit. They had been instructed through the baptism of John, but had not received the Holy Spirit. Then Paul preached the gospel about Christ to them, and laid his hands on them, and prayed, and they received the Spirit. Afterwards Paul enters the synagogue and was teaching them there during three months. But when the leading men in the synagogue were opposed he separated the disciples and taught them in the school of Tyrannus.

Rem. In Exodus 3 where Moses came into the presence of God it says that Moses should draw off his shoes, but in Luke 15 it was said to the servants that they should put shoes on the feet of the returning son.

J.T. I suppose that the Old Testament shows us that as redemption was then not completed the truth of sonship could not be known. Galatians shows us how God's people under the old covenant, were, so to speak, not of age, but that "when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, come of woman, come under law, ... that we might receive sonship". It says further: "But because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. So thou art no longer bondman, but son; but if son, heir also through God". It is in the light of this that shoes may

be put on our feet. At the same time this scripture in Exodus 3:5 is a reminder, as long as we are here in the world, of the reverence that is due on our side. As a son I am in Christ and thus not in the flesh at all; but in reality we are still in a condition of flesh and blood, and it is wholesome to remember that "our God is a consuming fire", and therefore we ought to serve Him in holy fear and reverence. It is beautiful to see the spirit which came out in Moses; it says he consented to remain with the man, but it does not say that he received any wages. Moses stayed with Reuel forty years, and at the end of this time he led his father-in-law's sheep to the mountain of God; that is Horeb. This shows that Moses corresponds to God's thoughts of a servant who is faithful in his administration. He is unselfish and satisfied with his lot. The Lord Jesus says, "Now he who serves for wages flees because he serves for wages", John 10:13. It seems as if God honoured Moses by appearing to him in this way in the wilderness. If God reveals Himself to us in our service it means far more than any recognition from men.

Ques. To whom do these shepherds who drove away the women correspond?

J.T. Christianity has many such in these days. They want everything done according to men's thoughts and ways. There are those who have an official place as shepherds, but they have no real love for the sheep. In Moses we find the unselfish servant who will help the people to get water.

Rem. When Paul took leave of the elders of Ephesus, he said, "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you", Acts 20:29.

J.T. Yes, and he says, "Not sparing the flock". Moses is thus a pattern for us in this respect. He is unselfish in his service, and he commences with

giving help; the flock was not his own. There are those who have the place of shepherds and who speak of their flock, but the flock belongs to God and Moses understood this. Here it was a question of Jethro's flock, and Moses did the best for it when he led it to Horeb, the mountain of God.

Rem. You said that we need to understand more what the assembly is in order to comprehend better the truth about the Spirit.

J.T. That is true, and I believe it was what Paul presented when he taught in the school of Tyrannus. In Acts we find three periods in connection with teaching. It says in chapter 11 that Paul and Barnabas were for a whole year together in the assembly, and taught a large crowd. And it says that at Corinth he remained a year and six months teaching among them the word of God. Later on in Acts 19 he reasoned daily with the disciples in the school of Tyrannus, and this took place for two years. And from chapter 20 we see that he was with them for three years in Ephesus. It was in Ephesus that the assembly reached its climax. It is also in the epistle to the Ephesians that we find the highest divine truths presented in connection with the assembly. It says there that the assembly is the fulness of Christ, and also that God shall have glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages.

Ques. Do we find the same thought in Exodus 15:27 in connection with the seventy palm trees?

J.T. I was just thinking of this. I believe that we see in these twelve springs of water and the seventy palm trees an indication of the help which a perfect administration affords us. This type speaks of what God has placed in the wilderness for us. Pharaoh thought that the wilderness would compel the people to return to Egypt, but in the wilderness God supplies all that the people of God need. In

His goodness and love God gave them twelve springs of water in the desert. I am sure that when the people came to this place their hearts were filled with deep gratefulness to God.

Rem. Although the flock was led into the desert, and not yet into the land, they had these resources.

J.T. It was God's resources in the desert, as expressed in J.N.D.'s hymn.

'Is the wilderness before thee,
Desert lands where drought abides?
Heav'nly springs shall there restore thee,
Fresh from God's exhaustless tides'. (Hymn 76)

Rem. The wilderness in its spiritual application is not an inferior side of the truth if we are in it with God.

J.T. Not at all, for it is where we learn to apprehend what God is for us. Therefore it says in the verses read in Numbers 21 that they came to Pisgah "which looks over the surface of the waste". From Deuteronomy 34 we understand that one could from there look into the land of Canaan, but the thought in Numbers is to show what God has been for me in the wilderness.

Rem. Their resources in the wilderness were unknown to Pharaoh even as to the world today.

J.T. The resources are for those who in faith have gone out into the wilderness: all are available to them. One can understand how these types that we have considered allude to what is, so to speak, outside of us, objective things. They have to do with the divine administration.

Ques. Is it possible for believers to lose the enjoyment of this?

J.T. Let us look at Numbers 21 in order to see how the believer's portion comes out. What they found at Elim alludes to what a young believer finds when he takes his place amongst the people of God. Here he finds these springs and these palm

trees where there is shadow. He has not himself procured these things. God has provided them, and they are found here. The young believer encamps beside the waters. You find young believers sometimes wishing to return to the world; they do not encamp by the waters. The number twelve speaks of perfect administration. The seventy palm trees speak of something which is beyond that. We find that the Lord sent out twelve disciples and later seventy others.

Ques. What is the difference between Egypt and the wilderness?

J.T. Egypt is a figure of the world, the place where the flesh finds its life. It says of Moses that he esteemed the reproach of the Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt. For us Egypt prefigures also the world as the sphere where Satan holds souls in bondage. This world becomes a wilderness to one who believes in Christ and it is here in the wilderness that God opens for us another world. In the tabernacle we have what prefigures the heavenly things (see Hebrews 9:23). We have there presented to us that world to which God will bring us. These things which God has given us in the wilderness are in view of sustaining us on the journey through it.

Ques. Does what you have spoken of correspond to the land?

J.T. The tabernacle was a figure of heavenly things. It is true that there was a foretaste of the land in the tabernacle, but while we are walking here in the wilderness we are reminded that we are not yet in reality in heaven, although we get the good of the heavenly things. So we find that these two sides go on simultaneously, our public life in the wilderness, and our private intercourse with God, outside the wilderness. It is in Numbers that we are made ready, in an objective way, for entering into the land. After they had sung, "Rise up, well!

sing unto it", they went forward from one place to another until they came to Pisgah which is on the border of the land of Canaan. The springing well in Numbers is found in the same chapter as the brazen serpent. In Romans 8 the brazen serpent stands in connection with our life in the wilderness, so that the righteous requirements of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit.

Ques. Is it by entering into our heavenly privileges that in the power of the Spirit we can take up our responsible side down here?

J.T. In John 4 the Lord says that the fountain of water in the believer springs up into eternal life. This stands in connection with the land, but in John 7 we have the other side in view of testimony; namely, that he who comes to Christ and drinks, from him shall flow rivers of living water. This points to the wilderness, the place where water is so needed.

Rem. Caleb's daughter sought springs.

J.T. She was in the land already, and she desired that which could maintain her there. But what we find here is what can help us to come into the land, namely the Holy Spirit which springs up to eternal life in the believer, from whom should flow rivers of living water to meet the need of others.

Ques. Does the word 'perish' in John 3 mean to be without water in the wilderness?

J.T. It refers to those whose bodies fell in the wilderness. It is not exactly the judgment of God. All men are perishing, but God would save men from it. No believer perishes in the wilderness. How solemn that their bodies should be left in the wilderness! They were not buried.

Ques. Does this correspond to a worldly believer?

J.T. I do not think so. I do not believe that any true believer falls in the wilderness. Hebrews shows

plainly that they did not go in on account of unbelief; they were apostate, they were not even buried. It is remarkable that all those who had faith, and of whom it says that they died in the wilderness, were buried; they are Moses, Miriam, and Aaron. It says of the unbelievers that their carcases, not their dead bodies but their carcases, a very ignominious word, fell and were wasted in the wilderness. It was as if God would show His abhorrence of the unbelief that rejects the heavenly testimony. Numbers 21:18 reads, "from the wilderness they went to Mattanah". They are beginning to leave the wilderness now in order to enter the land.

Ques. Is this the thought that they who do not enjoy eternal life do not enter the land?

J.T. Yes, that is why it says in Hebrews: "For we enter into the rest who have believed". It does not say that we shall enter in a time to come, but we are characterised by entering into rest now. This chapter shows us how we may enter. We enter by the Spirit.

Ques. Have our meetings and our exercises to do with the wilderness, and if so, how can we combine the thought of life with this?

J.T. We have to consider the assembly from two sides. One is found in Corinthians where the assembly is looked upon as a local gathering, as was seen in Corinth, but in Ephesians the assembly is considered as being placed in the heavenlies, and this is not a material thought, but a wholly spiritual one. When we get a view of the assembly as we find it in Ephesians, it is then we come into contact with eternal life. As we have been saying previously, where the people of God are gathered there is a sphere where life can be experienced. The more holy, spiritual and separated we are as believers, the more we shall touch a heavenly condition which is outside this world. Eternal life is considered as

something which is quite outside the sphere of natural things. John writes: "These things have I written to you that ye may know that ye have eternal life who believe on the name of the Son of God". The word 'know' in this verse means conscious knowledge. I am conscious of having it. If we receive rightly the truth in John's epistle we should be conscious of having eternal life, and this can only be in the power of the Spirit of God. Eternal life is in His Son; that is to say, it is something which is wholly outside the conditions of flesh and blood. It is on the other side of the Jordan. In 1 John 5 it says: "This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus the Christ". He is looked upon as the One that has died. Later we find a threefold witness; the Spirit, the water, and the blood. When we apprehend these three witnesses, we are able to enter into eternal life, for it is outside the sphere of flesh and blood; it is in the Son.

Rem. We may view the assembly in two ways. Firstly as in the epistle to the Corinthians, and this leads us to fellowship, and then as in Ephesians where the features of Christ are seen in the assembly.

J.T. Quite right. In Ephesians we find what is wholly the work of God.

Rem. Believers may not have light as to the truth of Ephesians though they might apprehend what comes out in Corinthians.

J.T. I do not think I should be able to apprehend this if I were connected with any human system.

Rem. Believers may not understand the precious truth we have in Ephesians, yet I thought that all christians could comprehend something of the truth of the Corinthian epistles.

J.T. I do not think it is possible for one who is connected with any acknowledged religious system to have a right apprehension of the assembly either from the Corinthians or the Ephesian side of the

truth, for if he has this, he acts against the light. The epistle to the Corinthians condemns severely anyone calling himself by any other name than christian. If I say: I am a Lutheran, a Methodist and so on, I am condemned by the epistle to the Corinthians. Paul says there: "Each of you says, I am of Paul, ... and I of Cephas, and I of Christ". And he asks: "Is the Christ divided?". If I cannot say: I am of Paul, I should not either be able to say I am of Wesley or of Luther. We find that after Barnabas and Saul had spent a whole year with the saints at Antioch, the believers there were called christians. Then we find in scripture that they are called brethren. They are also called saints. Why should we assume human names? Paul asks: "Has Paul been crucified for you?".

Ques. Are not these the things that contribute to what we call the ruin of the assembly?

J.T. Yes, they are. The saints of God are divided into groups and parties, but Scripture says that it is one faith, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism", Ephesians 4:5.

Rem. Christians will acknowledge that all believers belong to the assembly, but many affirm that it is something that cannot be realised these days. They speak of an 'invisible church'. If you asked, Are you the only ones that form the assembly? they answer: 'No, the assembly includes all believers'.

J.T. When they state that, they really confess that they are partisan. They are of Paul, of Cephas, and so on. If they confess that there is one assembly they ought to withdraw from all that which is not.

Ques. Is it right to say that we may stand on the foundation of Scripture in spite of all being in ruin?

J.T. Yes, "The firm foundation of God stands". So that we can say there is only one assembly. This is the language of Scripture, and if every true believer in the world took this ground, all real

believers would be found together. This implies that I must withdraw from all that which contradicts it. Therefore we find, as we have said before, that Paul separated the disciples. The Lord Himself withdrew with His disciples to the sea. In 2 Timothy 2 Paul says: "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity". Then he says that we should "pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart". There is thus found a way for the people of God today in spite of all these parties.

Ques. Would you kindly say something more about the twelve springs in the wilderness, and of the well that the princes dug?

J.T. They had no need to dig these twelve springs. They speak of something which God gives us through the ministry of the word, what the believer finds when he is converted. But the well in Numbers 21 had to be dug out. This digging points to the removing in us of all that is a hindrance to the Spirit's work in us. And as they were digging they sang to the Spirit. When I sing to the Spirit I acknowledge the Spirit as a divine power, the only power that can bring me into the land, as the Lord says in John 6. "It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing". That is why it says immediately after they had sung to the Spirit: "And from the wilderness they went to Mattanah". They left the wilderness behind them.

Ques. Does the digging speak of self-judgment?

J.T. Yes, I think so. They did this by the word of the lawgiver. For us it is by the word of Christ. The digging must go on.

Ques. Would you say that the digging depends on us and the spiritual power we possess, whereas the springs are what God has provided?

J.T. I think that is right.

THE WAY TO MORAL ELEVATION

Acts 1:9 - 14; Acts 10:9 - 13; Acts 19:1

My thought, beloved brethren, is to speak of moral elevation. The thought of elevation, whether we look at it as moral or literal, has a special application in christianity. The literal side we find specially in the gospel of Luke, and this corresponds to the epistle to Ephesians. In a coming day there will be found a people of God that has its blessing on earth, but our blessing is in the heavenlies. It says in Ephesians that "God ... has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ", and in connection with this it says that He has "raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus". It was in the purpose of God to set us in the heavenlies. Nothing in Scripture is plainer than this, that our calling is a heavenly one. As the apostle says in Philippians 3:14: "The calling on high of God in Christ Jesus". That is why, as I said, the gospel of Luke develops step by step the great principle of elevation.

In Luke 2 we find the angels saying, "Glory to God in the highest"; and in chapter 10 the Lord says to His disciples, "Your names are written in the heavens". In chapter 19, when the Lord passed into Jerusalem for the last time, He rode as King and the multitude of the disciples celebrated this occasion saying, "Peace in heaven, and glory in the highest". In the gospel of Luke the believer is always reminded of what is in the highest in view of our place there. In Luke 10 the Lord says, "I beheld Satan as lightning falling out of heaven". He shows how swift his fall is, that the sphere may be free for the assembly to come and take its place. In correspondence to all this we find at the end of Luke that the Lord was carried up into heaven.

All this prepares the way for these three scriptures in Acts that have been read.

The Acts of the Apostles has the assembly in view, and is intended to help those who are of the assembly to understand how we may become morally elevated, before we are literally elevated. In the present time we are to understand moral elevation. I wish to show how this moral elevation comes out when the believer refuses to connect himself with the religious ways and habits which are current in christendom. That we are gathered here tonight bears witness to what I have said. If we had been gathered in an acknowledged religious building with the religious arrangements that are found there, we should not be morally elevated but rather in a spiritual sense be degraded. We are morally elevated when we withdraw from that which has public reputation, and when we avoid ways and habits that the world recognises.

In the light of the elevated place we possess in God's thoughts and in the light of the recognition that will be ours one day, we may be satisfied with being hidden and unseen. It says in Revelation about the assembly that it came down out of heaven from God having the glory of God. This shows that when we come out in public glory, we shall be seen by the whole universe. What answers to that now is to be hidden, to avoid all religious acknowledgement, to evade what man considers good in a religious sense and to avoid all mere publicity. Those who can be content with being small now are such as are really great according to God. It is not that we should be inactive or conceal ourselves but believers should, as Paul says, be recognised by being "unknown, and yet well known". We are unknown because the world will prefer to overlook us, but if we are faithful to Christ in our testimony it will know us well enough. Even if we are unknown as

not forming a part of this world, we are, all the same, well known in the testimony, and this testimony incurs persecution.

Now I wish to show how this came out at the beginning. In Acts 1:9 we read, "A cloud received him out of their sight". Their eyes were fixed on Jesus, and it was as they were looking on Him that He was taken up. It is well, dear brethren, to ponder a scripture like this and, so to speak, try to picture the whole event before our eyes. Suppose you had been there when the Lord was taken up, you would have received an impression of it, as of something which had never been seen before. It was a Man going up; think of that! Have we ever pondered such an event? It says, "They beholding him". Think of a Man who goes right up! What grace in Him! what feeling of victory! what joy in His heart when He went to the place from whence He had come! And it was not only that He went up to heaven, but He was received up. If you had seen it you could never forget it; you would get such an impression of elevation. When we see Him going up, we get a thought of our going up, and we could say, 'Here we find the way in which we are going up'. The two men in white clothing who stood by them, when He went up, say, "This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven".

Satan does not come down from heaven in this way. The Lord says: "I beheld Satan as lightning falling out of heaven". The Lord Jesus does not fall. He comes down in glory and dignity. He shall thus come as they had seen Him going into heaven. And between these two events, the Lord's going away and the Lord's return, we find the assembly. And what might we expect should fill their hearts who form the assembly during this time of expectation

but the light of His elevation and our elevated place with Him? These disciples saw Him going up, and they returned to Jerusalem, and it is in their behaviour and in what they now do, since they have returned to Jerusalem, that we can see that of which I have been speaking. We can see how the thought of elevation fills their minds. It says: "And when they were come into the city, they went up to the upper chamber". We see how the thought of going up comes out.

Let us ask ourselves: What have I before me when I go into a large city such as Gothenburg, London or New York? Do I look for what is morally elevated? If I am unconverted or worldly minded and travel to Paris, then I wish to see all the sights in the city. If I value religious reputation I shall visit the most famous church there. I mention these things to show the contrast to what we are speaking of, namely moral elevation. If I love the Lord Jesus and His interests, and I go to Paris it is in order to meet some few of those who believe in the Lord Jesus, and who might come together in some humble place there. When I come to Boras today I do not know of any place like this room where we are gathered. I should look out for this place, and why? because here is found what corresponds to heaven. Here are found such as love the Lord Jesus, and this is what characterises heaven, for heaven is filled with those who love the Lord Jesus.

Therefore as we see, these disciples went into the upper room when they returned to the city. And whom did they find there? Was it the great men of the day? Not at all; there were not any such found there. There were found Peter, James and John and Andrew and all the apostles together with a few women and Jesus' brethren, and they were together praying. If I had asked Peter about the latest news,

he would not have had to say of such things nor of the money-market. He would have answered, 'We have in our hearts the light of another world altogether. He whom we love has gone into heaven, and He said to us before going up, that He would come back to fetch us. He even said that in a few days the Holy Spirit would come upon us'.

We can understand, dear brethren, that it is such things they were speaking of in a company like this in the upper room. If a so-called higher critic, one who denies the deity of Christ and the inspiration of the Bible, had come into this upper room and had said to Peter, 'I do not believe in the man of whom you speak, I do not believe in the inspiration of the Bible, I do not believe that Jonah was swallowed by a fish', how do you think they would meet a man like that? There would be found no place for him there; they would surely meet him very coldly; they are all occupied with Jesus. They know who He is, and they know where He is. I notice a woman there, Mary, the most wonderful woman in the world. Where would you find a woman, who can speak to you as she can? She could speak about the childhood of Jesus, of His earliest years as a young boy; she could speak of Him at the age of thirty. One can understand what this upper room was as filled with the most wonderful people that one could meet. And you say to yourself, 'I should like to stay here; I am willing to give up all religious reputation in Jerusalem in order to be in this company. Whatsoever I have to leave, I must stay here'. In this upper room we find God's nobles. The emperor at Rome in all his power cannot add anything to a company like this; in this company the least of all is greater than the emperor. There we see moral elevation. We get an idea of what christianity is as well as what this world is. What is this

world? John says, "The world is passing, ... but he that does the will of God abides for eternity".

One can understand that this upper room in Jerusalem was a contrast to the temple with its splendour. Perhaps you would remind me that these same disciples went into the temple according to what we read in Luke's gospel; but we find an explanation of this when we see that at the end of Luke's gospel they are viewed as the remnant of Israel, and that they are found in grace in the temple, as if God once more would appeal to the nation. But as I have mentioned already, we are viewed in the Acts as in the light of the assembly, and the building, which corresponds to the assembly is not a building like the temple or a cathedral but an upper room. The meaning of the word 'upper' is not that it is any better than other rooms, but that it is insignificant and humble. The expression 'upper' involves moral elevation.

To speak of our next scripture, it says in Acts 10 that Peter went up on the roof to pray. God intended to bring in the gentiles. In chapter 19 it says that Paul went through the upper districts to Ephesus. Romans answers every question in connection with me as a believer on earth. All this must first be made clear to my soul. Romans is given us of God in order that our souls might be set right as regards our sins and all that concerns us regarding our responsible life here on earth, even our bodies; wherefore we are encouraged in this epistle to present our bodies a living sacrifice to God. Later on we might reach to a more excellent side, and, so to speak, reach to the truths of Ephesians "through the upper districts".

When the nations were to be brought into the assembly. Peter was found in the house of Simon the tanner by the great sea. This speaks of God having the nations in view. Peter went up instinctively

as it were; he went up on the roof to pray, he did not go down. And heaven honoured him with a vision, for it says that while he was praying an ecstasy came upon him and he beheld the heaven opened and a great sheet came down. What I have before me is that God might make us evangelical. He longs to fill our hearts with love for souls. If we cannot preach. He will give us ability if we pray about it, but in seeking to reach souls we must not drop down to common religious methods. Peter went up to pray. It is not time for us now to settle down, but it is time for us to be diligent in the testimony. If we have no ability to preach, let us pray, but let us go up to pray. Peter went up to pray, and it was as if God said to him, 'This is pleasurable to Me, and as you have come up to pray I will show you what I intend to do'.

When Peter relates about this sheet he says, "It came even to me". That is to say, if we are exercised concerning the testimony, and if we go up to pray, and we refuse worldly methods in connection with the testimony in our service. God will honour us, and He will do this by revealing His thoughts to us. The sheet descended with all the quadrupeds and creeping things of the earth and the fowls of the heaven. That shows how all mankind, men of all these different nations, ought to hear the gospel. Peter was now prepared for this, and when he opens the door for the gentiles he does it in the light of the thoughts of heaven. The gentiles are brought in on this upper line. If believers around us wish to come into fellowship they come to what is morally elevated. When Peter preached to the gentiles the Holy Spirit fell on all those who heard him speak. This thought is affirmed as we have seen in Acts 19, when Paul in Ephesus through God's guidance wished to announce the truth about the

assembly. If we read Acts 20 together with the apostle's epistle to the Ephesians, we shall understand how elevated the assembly is. It says that Paul came to Ephesus, through the upper districts. May God bless these few thoughts!

HOW BELIEVERS ARE LED TO CHRIST

Matthew 2:1 - 12; Luke 2:8 - 17

I am thinking of believers being introduced to Christ. Many are vague as to the transaction by the Father of making the Son known in the heart. We have examples of this in Peter and in Paul. In Peter's case the Father revealed to him who the Lord Jesus was, so that he could say who He was; it was not simply a question of what he thought He was, but what he said. The Lord did not ask them as to who they thought He was, but who they said He was. So that Peter by reason of the Father's revelation to him said of Him, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". Then Paul said that God revealed His Son in him, and he preached Him as the Son of God. So that you see, dear brethren, it is not only what we think about Christ, but what we say about Him. In the profession around us men are saying very bad things about Him; others who are not so opposed are saying very indefinite things about Him, so that it is for us who love Him to be able to say definitely who He is. It is a question of what we are saying about Jesus; we are not to be silent. When others who oppose Christ are saying such blasphemous things about Him it is incumbent on each of us to say openly and definitely the truth about His Person. But if we are to know this, there must be a transaction from the Father, or in other words, heaven takes the initiative in introducing us to Christ. This may not be very definite in our experience: it may come in through our reading the Scriptures, or through someone ministering the truth, but at some time or another in our christian experience God introduces us by His Spirit to His Son. I do not believe that any of us will need an introduction when we get to heaven; the introduction is while we are here. This may be by the Father's

act directly by the Spirit, or it may be by the Spirit through ministry, or it may be by the Spirit bringing home to us some passage of Scripture. But it is imperative that this transaction should be known in every one of our souls, that we have a definite apprehension of the Person of Christ and that if we have that apprehension we speak about it, for we shall be challenged. Here in the gospel of Matthew the Lord challenges all of them; He says, "Who do ye say that I am?"

Well now, this principle of introduction appears in all the evangelists, but particularly in Matthew, in Luke and in John. In Matthew it is through the star in the East; in Luke it is by an angel; in John it is by John the baptist. You will all remember how John the baptist looking on Jesus as He walked said, "Behold the Lamb of God". You see, John knew Him; he had been directed how to locate the Person of the Lord Jesus. The word was, "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit". Now John saw that, and thus he knew the Person. But he did not keep silent about it; he immediately adds, "I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God". Two of John's disciples heard this and followed Jesus; they heard John say, "Behold the Lamb of God".

Now this was when Jesus was entering on His ministry but Matthew and Luke record introduction to Jesus when He was a Babe and I believe the Lord would have a word for us as to these two introductions. The first record speaks of wise men from the East, but Luke speaks of shepherds. That is, we have in Matthew persons of distinction in this world -- those who belong to what we call the educated class. Luke, on the other hand speaks of persons of no special distinction in the world; they are just shepherds. I mention this so that we may

see that God is no respecter of persons; all men are the same to Him. If you were to look down from an altitude of one thousand feet, straight down, all men would look very small; whether one man was one foot higher than another would make very little difference. Men would not look as trees walking, but would be more like ants. And so you see, if God looks down -- to use my simple figure -- all men are the same to Him, whether it be the emperor or the beggar. He respects the king or the emperor, as He does the beggar, for He will never encourage socialism or Bolshevism; I believe He hates it as much as anything there is; it is from that that the worst possible evil will arise. But then, He is not specially honouring the monarch; he is just a man to Him. But he is a man, and the gospel of Mark tells us that a man is better than a sheep; that is to say, from the standpoint of grace it is the greatest possible thing to be a man, for the grace of God carries with it salvation for all men (Titus 2:11).

God does not ignore governmental circumstances in this world. If He wishes to convert a king He will employ means to get at him; if He wishes to convert a beggar or a prisoner in the dungeon, He will employ suitable means. If a man be an astronomer it is very likely that God will speak to him through the stars or the firmament. If a man be a fisherman it is very likely that God will speak to him through his profession; or if he be a ploughman or a gatherer of summer fruit, as it says, "The invisible things of him ... are clearly seen, ... by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead", Romans 1:20. God can speak to men through the heavens, through the sea, and through the very soil which a man ploughs; such are the wonderful instrumentalities that God has through which to address men. And therefore we are not to be disrespectful of the various grades of humanity, as we speak, or

callings. Christianity teaches us to accept everything as it is. So in regard of the testimony of the nations, you see these wise men from the East were evidently men who read the heavens, and God spoke to them through what was in the heavens. They saw a star; they saw it in the East; that is, they saw it where they were employed. We have therefore a wonderful example here of the testimony of creation. There is not a word as to the scriptures in regard of them. So that if anyone raise a question as to the East, that is, the seven hundred or so million people in Asia, we can say, Well, these wise men had a testimony; there it is, the everlasting gospel, the heavens, and they were moved by it, and God was working in their souls.

Well now, what they saw was not a known star, known to astronomers. Of course, all the stars belong to Christ; He made them all; He calls them all by name. But this is His star -- "We have seen his star in the east". They were able to tell what belonged to Him, what had reference specifically to Christ. Then another thing here is that in being thus guided they are un-national. National feeling and prejudice goes a long way in hindering the growth of the saints of God. But these wise men are not affected by their national feeling. They come to Jerusalem and they say, "Where is he that is born King of the Jews?". If they had said, 'Where is he that is King of kings?', then they might have reserved their national feeling, for every kingdom and nation on earth may claim the King of kings. But when they speak of the "King of the Jews", they give up all national rights; it gives the Jews prior rights on the earth, and, if God has given a nation prior rights, He is sovereign, and if His sovereignty takes away from me my nation, my wisdom is to submit. The great principle underlying all God's dealings is His sovereign rights. He has

taken up a nation sovereignly and given it priority among the nations, and every nation on earth will have to recognise the priority of the Jews. In the future, every nation that does not come up to Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles will get no rain. And so you see, God has given prior rights, a hegemony, to the Jewish nation. And so these wise men were truly wise; they were already recognising the sovereign rights of God. They say, "Where is he that is born King of the Jews?". They are concerned about Him as born. The natural mind would say, I will wait till he has grown before I give allegiance.

Our position today is that we own allegiance to Christ before He is acknowledged at all. Outwardly He has been cut off and has nothing, but we know that He is exalted in heaven and we acknowledge His rights already. We acknowledge the sovereign rights of God too; we see that God had set His King on His holy hill of Zion. And so these men here are anticipating our position; they are concerned about the King as born -- not the King crowned, but the King born. You see what light they were acting on, but then what one would observe is that notwithstanding that, they fall into wrong hands. They went to Jerusalem and came into the hands of Herod, the rival of Jesus. We are thus reminded that whilst we may have light and are guided up to a point, we may miss our way. Thousands of our brethren who love the Lord started out as converted to find Him, but have fallen into wrong hands; they have become members of established religions with the result that the interests of God have suffered. True enough the Scriptures were there at Jerusalem, and true enough the Scriptures are read in Protestant countries in the established churches. We are very thankful that in a great number at any rate the Bible is 'Appointed to be read in churches'; it is

infinitely better that we should have the Bible read in churches than the Koran or any such book.

There is thus some guidance in these establishments; at least the Scriptures are there. So you find that the chief priest and scribes are appealed to by Herod as to where Christ should be born, and they could tell that much. But notwithstanding the fact that they had the Scriptures and could tell where Christ should be born, there was positive hatred to Him there. Herod, it says, was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. Why should they be troubled with such news that the King was born? Fifty cannon would roar in modern times at the birth of the Crown Prince, the Prince of Wales, or the like. Why then should they be troubled at the birth of the King of the Jews? It should be an occasion of joy. But the secret was that Herod was a rival to Christ, and the sorrowful thing is that all Jerusalem was with him, a condition exactly like our own today, for not only are the leaders opposed but the people are with them in great measure. Infidelity and opposition to Christ is growing and increasing rapidly. And so in such systems as these we are in wrong hands. Although they can tell us a great deal about Christ, they are opposed. And there is subtle deception too, for Herod says, I want to come and worship Him. He had no thought of worshipping the King; his thought was to murder Him.

Well now, what is so beautiful is that when these men had heard the king they went their way. They had not gone that way in going to Jerusalem, but now they are on their way and the star appears and then they find the King. How lovely to see that star as it rested over the house where the King was! No one of us should be restful, beloved, until we find the King. However small He may be in our minds, He is the King, He is the born King. He is not a usurper, but is born a royal personage. And so the

true state of their souls is disclosed. They enter into the house and find the little Child and Mary. Matthew always brings the King forward and so he puts the little Child before its mother. And then they become worshippers. What examples for us; they are not formal worshippers, but bring forth their treasures, gold and frankincense and myrrh. They have got things; they are wealthy. And now after they have become worshippers practically, God says, 'Now you must not go back to Herod again'. So there is a warning for every one of us -- do not go that way again; do not go in the way of the opposers of Christ. They may be distinguished personages, high up ecclesiastically or otherwise; they may know something about the Scriptures and something about Christ -- enough to oppose Him; but do not go that way again. Be warned! God sets up a beacon light as it were in that direction -- do not go that way! God warns them not to go back to Herod and they are obedient to the vision; they return to their own country another way. We have to find that other way; that way is the spiritual way; it is a different way from the way via Jerusalem. You see Jerusalem here in this passage represents what is accredited publicly; Matthew always casts a slight on Jerusalem. He wishes to direct the true believers in Christ to the assembly and hence he says, 'Do not go back that way; you will never find Christ in the assembly that way'.

Now going on to Luke, you see how different the people are here in the social scale, and whilst God is no respecter of persons, He does greatly value any traits of Christ that are emphasised in us and will honour them. So that these men although humble and obscure, having no place in the world socially, are keeping watch over their flock by night. In other words, they are shepherds in truth; they are unselfish people -- keeping watch over their flocks

by night. It was a time not only when other people would be asleep, but when some would be enjoying themselves in the cities, for it is census time. That is to say, it might be represented in this way -- suppose you have a fair here in Gothenburg; people come in from the country from all directions and you may be sure all kinds of pleasures are in vogue. But these men are not there; they are unselfishly guarding their flocks by night. And hence they are honoured; they are not left alone, for the angel of the Lord was there by them and the glory of the Lord shone round about them. They are evidently much more honoured than the wise men from the East. So that whilst God is no respecter of persons, He is a respecter of the traits of Christ shining out in us, and the more of these that appear, the more we shall be honoured. Then the angel communicates to them the wonderful news that to them was born a Saviour; you see, it is not simply that the Saviour was born, but "unto you", it says. There is no such word in regard of the wise men. Then it says that as the angel is communicating this wonderful news a multitude of the heavenly host appeared, that is, heaven has come down in volume to introduce these shepherds to Christ. It is as if their hearts were to be impressed with heaven's thought of Christ. One often thinks of that, that if we were to get into heaven and see heaven's thoughts of Jesus, how heaven regards Jesus, every one of us would be ashamed at the great difference between heaven's regard for Him and our regard.

Now the angels depart up to heaven and what will these men do? The angel had said, "Unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger". There is in this instance no exposure to Herod. The city of His

birth is mentioned and the sign as to how He is to be located. Thus the more traits of Christ we have, the more heaven will honour us and the less we shall be exposed to the official class. So that as the angels depart into heaven, the shepherds say, 'Let us go'. Let us go where? To Bethlehem! The angel had not used the word 'Bethlehem' at all, but these men were spiritual to a point; they knew David's city, that it was no other than Bethlehem. So let us go to Bethlehem; let us go now. That is what they say, and they go, and notice, they find Mary and Joseph and the Babe. Luke is not concerned about the King; with him it is a question of grace, that Jesus the Son of God could come down so low. So that the parents are mentioned before the Child, whereas Matthew mentions the Child before the parents.

These shepherds go their way to Bethlehem, and where will they go? Will they go to the mayor of Bethlehem, speaking modernly, or the city council, or the centurion, if there was one there? No, they are shepherds and the angel had told them about a manger; they knew what a manger meant. The magi of the East might be quite unconversant with any such small thing as a manger, but the shepherds knew where cattle were kept. You see how perfectly God suits the light He gives to the state we are in. And so it is, where there is true guidance from heaven and we are subject, we shall go directly to the spot. As they went into Bethlehem they would be looking around not for the big houses, but for the mangers, and they find the babe in the manger. They found Him; let us find Him. As I said, God is at all times introducing to us His beloved Son; He is giving clear indications as to where He is. It may be in the smallest and almost humbling circumstances outwardly, but let us not falter; He is sure to be there. As the word is, "Ye shall find"; there is no

mistake about it. Having found Him, as I was saying at the beginning, they speak about Him. It says, "And found both Mary and Joseph, and the babe lying in the manger; and having seen it they made known about the country the thing which had had been said to them concerning this child", Luke 2:16, 17.

You see the teaching of these passages: heaven is introducing us to Christ. For the moment He is in very humble circumstances outwardly, but soon He is to come out in His majesty, in heavenly glory, and the assembly will be with Him. In the meantime He is in obscure circumstances outwardly, but if we are subject we shall not fail to find Him. As finding Him we shall not fail to worship Him, nor to confess Him, and to say who He is, that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

MATERIAL FOR THE ASSEMBLY AND PERSONAL DIGNITY

Matthew 16:15 - 18, 28; Matthew 17:1 - 5; Matthew 18:19, 20

J.T. It is well known to some of us that Matthew's gospel is the gospel that most of all speaks about the assembly. In the gospel of Matthew the assembly takes the place of Jerusalem. It is in the assembly that the light of God and the order and government of God come out. Our first scripture alludes to the material of which the assembly is being formed, and the two others point to the persons that constitute the assembly. We ought to make a distinction between material and persons. We may look upon every believer as being material for the assembly, or we may consider him as a person in the assembly, a personality there. Looked upon as material it is a question of what he is; considered as a person it will be of who he is.

In chapter 16 Peter is addressed by the Lord not by his own name, but according to what he was, "Thou art Peter". It is interesting to compare this with John 1 where it says: "Thou shalt be called Cephas (which interpreted is stone)". In John it is a question of what he should be called, his personality. In John's gospel the Lord says this after having looked on him. When the Lord looked at him He saw certain features in him, and therefore He says: "Thou shalt be called Cephas". This was to be his name. The name speaks of the personality. But in Matthew it says: "Thou art Peter". In Matthew the thought is what he was, but in John it is who he was. In Matthew Peter is looked upon as material, and this on account of what he says, but in John it is in connection with his behaviour, what one could see in him.

Ques. When it is a question of testimony, is the thought then of what we are?

J.T. Yes. In his first chapter John presents the Lord as the last Adam; He gives names. It does not say that Adam gave names to anything not having life; he named living creatures. In the same way we find that the Lord in John's gospel is occupied with that which has life, living persons. As the living creatures were led to Adam he named them all. The names he gave every creature allude to the life that came out and was expressed through the movements of each creature. In this way we see how the Lord in John 1 comes forth as the last Adam, giving names. He looked at Simon, and He said: "Thou shalt be called Cephas". He was to be known by this name. The name spoke of what he was in his personality. But when the Lord in Matthew speaks of Peter, he is thinking of the material which was found in him. Further on in the gospel of Matthew we find how the thought of personality comes out more distinctly. The visions on the holy mount come in to show us the greatness of the Person in heaven, so that the Lord says: "There are some of those standing here that shall not taste of death at all until they shall have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom". It is the Person that is coming out here, the Son of man coming in His kingdom. Peter's confession showed that he had apprehended the Lord as the Son of God, as the Christ. This is the way in which He is known down here in grace and power. But what these three disciples were to see was the Son of man coming in His kingdom; that is to say His personal majesty, not only a person, but the Person in His own glory, coming in His kingdom. It is not Jesus in lowliness, but Jesus, the Son of man, in highest majesty and honour. Therefore, when we come to the truth of, the assembly in activity, we get the thought of personality, first of all in Christ, and then in the two heavenly saints, Moses and Elias, and further in

connection with the relationship into which the disciples were brought, namely sonship. Between chapter 16, where the material for the assembly is mentioned, and chapter 18, which speaks of the assembly in activity, comes chapter 17 showing us what personality implies.

Ques. Is this your thought that we commence as persons whom God has called to have part in the assembly, but if this material is not found in us we cannot enter into the reality of the assembly?

J.T. I believe that the thought of personality in Scripture comes out after the thought of material; that is to say, I gain what one might call personality in the assembly; I cannot bring my natural personality with me into the assembly. If I were a prominent person in this world, a nobleman or a professor, then this personality has no place in the assembly of God; the only kind of personality which is of worth in the assembly is the personality I have received of Christ.

Rem. I thought you were contemplating John's side first, and then Matthew's side, and that it is the right person that makes the material.

J.T. No, I was speaking of John to show the order in Matthew's gospel.

Ques. What is your thought as to personality?

J.T. Personality is some characteristic feature which distinguishes one person from another. Each one in the assembly has his own dignity, and the name he receives from the Lord intimates what underlies this dignity. This name may involve that which the Lord sees beforehand is to come out in us. He knows the end from the beginning, and if He gives me a name as He gave Peter one, He knows what will come out in due time. The dignity which characterised Peter was something which he had gained in being in the company of Christ.

The believer is looked upon as being material for the building, but he is even viewed in his personal dignity as one who has part in the assembly. The assembly is regarded from two sides, either as a building, and for this there is need of material, or also as a body or organism which consists of such as have spiritual intelligence. In Matthew 18 the Lord says: "And if also he will not listen to the assembly". Here He does not view the assembly as a building, but as a gathering of certain persons, something like the Sanhedrim, the council of the Jews.

Ques. Do we find in chapter 17 our place in the kingdom in connection with our personality?

J.T. Yes, but it is not only our place in the kingdom. We see what kind of persons these were, and how they appear. In chapter 17 we have a heavenly picture.

Ques. It says of Gideon's brethren that each one resembled the sons of a king. Was this their personality?

J.T. Yes, quite so, it was their personal dignity that came out. In connection with Matthew's way of representing the vision on the mount of transfiguration it was not only that they should see the kingdom of God, but that they should see the Son of man coming in His kingdom; that is to say, it was the Person who was so great. We see His majesty. It is as if God would show us majesty in a Man, before we consider the assembly in its activity, as we see it in chapter 18. There is no one found in the whole universe to be compared to Him. It was not Jesus seen here in humiliation, but Jesus as He is up there. It says that He was transfigured before them. His face shone as the sun, and His garments became white as the light. That is how He looked. When Peter later on writes about it, he says, "Having been eyewitnesses of his majesty"; this chapter lays stress on His personality. See too

how Moses and Elias appear; they appeared to them talking with Him. Thus we have here the very greatest personality in Christ and then two of the heavenly saints that appear in glory talking with this exalted Person. When I contemplate this wonderful vision on the mount, I begin to ask, How great this is as compared to what we are accustomed to see on earth? What we see up there, is what is going to continue. God's thought was that this personality which was found up there should be reflected in the three disciples when they came down from the mount.

Ques. Do we see this in Acts 3 where Peter says: "Look on us"?

J.T. Yes, there they were two persons, and the word was, "Look on us". We find the same thought there.

Ques. Have we the same thought in Acts 1 where it says: "The crowd of names who were together was about a hundred and twenty"?

J.T. That is a good thought. We were reminded of them in chapter 3 where Peter says: "Look on us". It does not say: Look at this, but, "Look on us". So also in chapter 1 it says, "The crowd of names who were together was about a hundred and twenty". Each name had its own personal significance. Further on in the Acts we see these persons as living stones; this alludes to what we are. This is a question of what God has wrought in us, love and all that which makes us suitable for the building. But at the same time as we are fitted together in the building, we are also several individual persons. In Acts 15 we find that when a case was to be handled, the apostles and elders came together, and we read that Peter stood up and spoke; after that we get James speaking, and each one spoke according to his personal dignity.

Ques. Is it so that each one of the saints possesses this personality, or is it only those who are more prominent?

J.T. Each one has it; it says that the crowd of names was one hundred and twenty. This includes sisters as well as brothers. Amongst this number the apostles are named, and also the mother of the Lord is named, as if she also was to be distinguished. I suppose that the eleven apostles and Mary, the mother of Jesus, had a special place in this company. In chapter 2 we find them all together in one place. This shows that they were material suitable to be joined together.

Ques. Is the material that which God forms in the believer?

J.T. Yes, that is the thought, and as being material I am suited to be built in. But the thought of personality involves that the believers exercise influence. Every believer has some characterising feature, and this feature is what exerts influence among the brethren. But this shows how important it is that all that which might characterise us after the flesh is shut out. I do not doubt that every one of those one hundred and twenty in the upper room had some personal acknowledgement from the Lord during the time He was with them. If we had been with the Lord during the time the Lord Jesus went in and out among the disciples from the baptism of John until the day when He was taken up, we should find that He would recognise us in some special way. He would mark us out by the way in which He spoke to us.

This shows how the Lord, when He came in and went out among them, could intimate what each one was. Every one was to be marked out in a special way, and He could say what it was. If we think of the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, we find that these names were given with prophetic significance,

and later on we find how the names are made use of in poetical form with a spiritual meaning. The name of Judah: "Thy brethren will praise thee". This shows us what the name means. So also Levi which means joined; he was to be joined to the priesthood. The Holy Spirit applies the word and connects it with the truth. When the Lord calls John and James sons of thunder He meant something with it.

Ques. What is the thought in this?

J.T. I cannot say, but I would only point out how names come out in connection with the truth. We may be sure that the name the Lord gave them, Boanerges, came out in their service. Mary, the mother of Jesus, was one amongst the most honoured in the company; for her name is mentioned together with the apostles. Twelve names are mentioned, but only one is a woman's name. She is mentioned as the mother of Jesus. This shows how every kind of personal dignity that we may gain in this world must be shut out from the assembly. The Lord shows in connection with our entering the assembly what each one of us will be, and this is not on account of what I have been before, but of what I am going to be. What I am going to be is what I may gain in the assembly. Suppose I were a nobleman with a high title, and I found myself in some way transferred to heaven, of what value would my nobility be there? It would not help me for a moment to know how I ought to behave there. And the same thing holds good in assembly. The assembly down here ought to correspond to what is found in heaven.

Ques. Is Stephen an example of this?

J.T. Yes, his face shone as the face of an angel. This showed he was a personality from another world. What we see on the mount in chapter 17 is what should come out in the disciples down here, that is sonship. In the last part of this chapter the

Lord says, "Then are the sons free". And later He adds, "Take that and give it to them for me and thee". This great Person whom I have seen in heaven, and who is addressed by the Father as Son, is leading the disciples into sonship conditions and is linking them with Himself as sons. Not any personality that might distinguish me in this world could for a moment be compared to this, that I am a son. It is only in the light of this that we can understand chapter 18. Here on earth is found something very wonderful, that is, the assembly; it is composed of such dignified persons that if someone who has done wrong will not listen to them, he will be regarded as a heathen and a publican. It says in verse 19, "Two of you"; this shows us that the thought of personality may be applied in a day when everything is in ruins. It is not a question of two who are believers, but it says "two of you"; it is such persons.

Rem. These disciples had seen something that we never saw.

J.T. But in principle believers see these things by the Spirit. Scripture speaks of what is possible, and not of what is impossible.

Rem. There may perhaps be some among us who wonder if all the saints may be considered as material.

J.T. From God's side all believers are in the assembly, but the Holy Spirit presents for us in Scripture what is God's desire for us, and this is what we ought to be occupied with. In chapter 16 we find a man who had light about Christ in his soul. This light he received from the Father. Every believer ought to understand that this is possible. For us it is not in exactly the same way as it was with Peter, but it must be something corresponding to it. The Father has had something to say to my soul about His Son. We have apprehended so little the greatness of the Holy Spirit's presence here and

what is possible on account of this. By the Holy Spirit I can take in what it means that Christ is up there; I get an impression of His Person who is in heaven. It is in the power of these things that the believer is in the "building" and even in the "assembly". When the Lord therefore says, "Two of you", He alludes to two of such persons. If I cannot reckon myself as of such persons I ought to ask myself, Why not? Is it not open to us even here in Gothenburg to be one of these?

Rem. I suppose, it is open for each one who has an impression of Christ in his soul. Peter got an impression, did he not?

J.T. Yes, and later it says, "It shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens". Not only that it shall come, but it shall come to them.

Ques. Do the words "two of you" in chapter 18 allude to such as we have been reading of in chapter 17?

J.T. Yes, no doubt; it says "two of you", so also, "Where two or three"; they are the same persons. The Lord says, "There am I in the midst of them". We are amongst these whom heaven acknowledges.

Rem. Is this possible at the present time?

J.T. Yes, to be sure. It is a great consolation to know that such persons are found on earth.

Ques. Is Romans 16 an example of such personalities?

J.T. Yes, and there we find such who were well known in Rome, and we find the word 'salute' there mentioned twenty times. In Matthew 18 we see the assembly in activity. We see there what the saints are as composing the assembly. They are persons who are known in heaven. Heaven would, so to speak, salute them.

Ques. When can Matthew 18:20 be applied?

J.T. I believe it is that side that Matthew presents. It is not the privilege but the administration side, administration that has God's interests in view down here. This verse shows therefore that we may act on God's behalf down here. The Lord gives His support to "two or three". That "two or three" are gathered to His name involves that they are gathered as representatives of Him here.

Ques. What we call a care meeting?

J.T. Yes, or wherever it is a question of administration for Him.

THE WORLD OR CHRIST?

2 Chronicles 18:2; 2 Chronicles 19:1 - 3

These scriptures show in a few words how God comes in with salvation for one soul among His people, whereas judgment falls on the one who remains in unbelief. Two prominent men are spoken of here. One was distinguished for his wickedness, the other known for his piety. To have got a prominent place in this world is not an evidence of God's recognition. A person may be a prominent politician, a scientist, an official or military man, but at the same time be lawless, and thus be outside the sphere of salvation. Ahab was a prominent king in Israel, but what characterised him specially was his lawlessness, which was like the lawlessness that is current at the present time, a lawlessness that is prevalent among those who are highly esteemed and have influence in the world. The lawlessness that is found in leaders exercises an influence over persons of more humble station. We find here that it was in Ahab's time that Hiel built Jericho (1 Kings 16:34). He built a city that God had destroyed, and regarding which God had uttered a curse on the man who should rebuild it. At this present time we see how man is employed in rebuilding the old world with its atheism and idolatry.

In our time such a disregard of God's authority and of the Scriptures is predominating that men of all classes of society are acting according to their own thoughts and opinions. It is a day of lawless freedom, when the heathen world is being rebuilt. It is what Hiel did. He built Jericho, and it says that he laid the foundation in Abiram his first-born, and set up its gates in Segub his youngest son. Thus we see how God is opposed to men who build up the world which is at enmity with Christ and His people.

What can we say about Ahab? how great was his responsibility! We see him surrounded by royal splendour. Can he escape the judgment? On the other hand we have one who is a real child of God, for Jehoshaphat is a type of a real believer in Christ, and what is presented in this chapter is that he links himself with Ahab, who was one of the most wicked kings in Israel. In type Jehoshaphat is a true believer in Christ, and in many ways a pious man, but he joins hands with the man who in his time was characterised by great lawlessness. Scripture tells us that Jehoshaphat had riches and honour in abundance. Perhaps there are here some that are children of believers, like Jehoshaphat who was the son of the pious king Asa, who themselves perhaps in their youth have walked in the fear of God, but who now walk hand in hand with the world. To be joined to the world at the present time means to be joined to the world in its most wicked form. The world is often pleased to have the company of believers. Ahab killed much cattle for Jehoshaphat's sake. The world would like to gain the friendship of these who are children of godly men and women. Jehoshaphat was the son of a godly father, and moreover, he was himself one who feared God, and even one who received blessing from God, and yet we find him joining hands with the most ungodly man of his time. No wonder Ahab was glad of it! There are now among the children of the saints many young ones who themselves wish to walk in the fear of God, and it is just these that the world seeks after. The world can use you, you may be an adornment for the world; it would ensnare you by persuading you thus. We see this in our chapter. The king of Israel and Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, having put on their robes, sat each on his throne; and they sat in an open place at the entrance of the gate of Samaria. But what did heaven think

of all this? You have perhaps been having friendly intercourse with worldly people and altogether forgotten that heaven has witnessed it.

In God's mercy there was a faithful servant of the Lord by the name of Micah. We who are now speaking to you wish to be honest like this prophet. We would not desire to be like Baal's prophets of whom we read that "the king of Israel assembled the prophets, four hundred men, and said to them. Shall we go against Ramoth-Gilead to battle, or shall I forbear?". These four hundred men were prophets, but they were false prophets. There are many such today; we do well in being on our guard against them. They answered that: "Go up to Ramoth-Gilead, and prosper". They flattered both Ahab and Jehoshaphat. They who are like these prophets now speak flattering words to men. They speak of how the world is making progress, and of all the new inventions that are made, of the advance of science, and how the world is being reformed. They think that we shall reach a condition of things where peace will reign, and where people will enjoy happiness, but all this is deception, and a false show. Scripture tells us, dear friends, that "wicked men and juggling impostors shall advance in evil, leading and being led astray". There is no hope of the world being reformed, it is already judged, as the Lord says, "Now is the judgment of this world". We would not like to do what these men did who spoke lies, we would rather be like Micah a solitary man against four hundred. He had the truth, and he spoke the truth.

We see these two kings dressed in their robes and sitting on their thrones, but what does heaven think of these thrones? What does heaven think of Jehoshaphat, him who was a true believer, but for all that had joined hands with Ahab in his pride?

What does heaven think of you, young man, young woman, you who walk hand in hand with this world? Micah says, "I saw Jehovah sitting upon his throne". God has a throne. It seems perhaps as if those who preach the gospel are weak and without defence in this world, but the truth is that they are here announcing the gospel as those who are supported by the Lord Jesus Christ from heaven, for He is sitting on the throne. Of what value are all the thrones of this world compared with God's throne? Micah saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and the throne on which the Lord is sitting, young man, or young woman, is against the world to which you are united. Micah tells us even that not only the hosts of heaven and the angels are subject to the Lord on His throne, but the evil spirits themselves must obey Him. The hosts of heaven are standing before the Lord; and of what is the Lord thinking? He is at the present time occupied with the saving of men's souls, and that is why we are here tonight. He is sitting on His Father's throne, and this implies grace, a time of unqualified grace. But at the same time judgment is even preached, for it says in the same epistle that speaks about the truth of the gospel that the wrath of God is revealed from heaven (Romans 1:18). Nothing is more clear in the Bible than this, that God is going to judge the ungodly. The book of Revelation speaks of the terrible truth, that there is a great white throne, and that One is going to sit on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven shall flee.

We find here that the evil is so great that God must meet Ahab in judgment. It is something dreadful that God should so direct a man's course that he must meet his end in judgment. Have you thought that heaven may, perhaps, have fixed that the very person with whom you keep company must come under judgment? This world in which you

desire to walk and have your part is already under the judgment of God, and God is even allowing evil spirits to entice it into the way that leads to destruction. This is what happens around us every day. The Lord says, "Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-Gilead?". In other words to meet his destruction, not his salvation. In spite of that, do you keep company with such a one as Ahab, one who hates the Lord? It was said to Jehoshaphat, "Shouldest thou ... love them that hate Jehovah?". Perhaps you will answer, But they are nice people, educated and looked up to. Yes, but they hate the Lord, and you love Him, and for all that you are on friendly terms with those who hate the Lord, and you are intimate with one whom heaven intends to destroy.

"Who shall entice Ahab ... ?", says the Lord. And a spirit comes forth and says, "I will entice him". The Lord says: "Wherewith?". He answers: "I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets". Is there any hope for a world where there are four hundred prophets who have a lying spirit? This lying spirit speaks flattering words, and says that the world is getting better and better, and that we shall soon reach a kingdom of peace and happiness through social reforms; and men believe this. People who are educated and gifted give addresses and write books in this direction in spite of God's having said that the world is already judged, and that it only grows worse. Is there any hope when a lying spirit is enticing the world into the way that leads to judgment and perdition? Are you joined to it? Is there anyone here in such a situation? Listen to a word of warning! The Lord says to this spirit: "Go forth, and do so". This explains what is going on around us in christendom. The result is that the world is allured into destruction. We find here, however, this god-fearing man,

Jehoshaphat, following in the same way. He goes to Ramoth-Gilead to fight along with Ahab.

This leads us to the gospel; we see now how God comes in. Will God allow Jehoshaphat to continue on this road? A true believer can never be lost. The Lord Jesus in John's gospel says that He gives His sheep life eternal; and they shall never perish, nor shall they come into judgment. We find all the same Jehoshaphat going to battle; he is on the very road to perdition, but heaven saw it. Yes, heaven is looking on us, and if there is one here who is joined to the world, heaven is paying attention to it. Perhaps this meeting will lead to your being saved, as Jehoshaphat was. Ahab was sure he himself would not perish, but God was as decided in His mind that he should lose his life. There is no possibility for those who do not believe to escape perdition; that is, God's judgment. Ahab says to Jehoshaphat, "I will disguise myself, and will enter into the battle; but put thou on thy robes". Ahab sought to hide himself in another's apparel; but he forgot that he had to do with God, not only the Syrians. He might perhaps have escaped the Syrians, but he could not escape God. If there is anyone here who does not believe, and who is determined to continue his own way in opposition to God, one who refuses to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in this day of grace, then it is beyond all doubt that judgment will fall on him. As the psalmist puts it, "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? and whither flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into the heavens thou art there; or if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there; If I take the wings of the dawn and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me". Who can expect to gain victory, when he takes up the struggle against God? "And a man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of

Israel between the fastenings and the corslet". You say perhaps that this happened by chance. There is no such thing with God. What may often look like a chance, is something ordered of God. A misadventure happens to you in the street perhaps, you might be overrun by a car, be brought to the hospital and die there. Such things happen often. Or your heart may cease beating through something unexpected happening to you. All these things the unconverted call a chance only, or a happening, but it is not so.

"A man drew a bow at a venture". A soldier drew his bow without knowing whom he would hit, but it was God's righteous judgment that struck this wicked king. May no unconverted person here in this room think that he can escape God's judgment. The great white throne is not a bow drawn at a venture, it is a judgment seat where everything is judged after the most accurate estimation, and the Lord will sit on that throne; the judgment is then fixed. But this incident shows that what appeared to be a mere accident, was in reality God's judgment on an adversary. Ahab had been hit in a joint of his armour. He had, to be sure, put on an armour of iron. There are many who do that; they try to shield themselves in every possible way. But this arrow drawn at a venture, smites him between the "fastenings and the corslet", so although he stayed himself up in his chariot until the evening he died nevertheless. He died under the judgment of God. It is terrible to die under the judgment of God. Death is not the end for man; "forasmuch as it is the portion of men once to die, and after this judgment", Hebrews 9:27.

The scripture says here, "And it came to pass when the captains of the chariots saw Jehoshaphat", they thought, "That is the king of Israel", whereupon they surrounded him to fight. Then Jehoshaphat

cried out, and Jehovah helped him, and "God diverted them from him". I would now wish to speak a word to a believer who is perhaps joined to the world. Through the grace of God you have, as it were, by a hair's breadth escaped the judgment. As it says in 1 Corinthians 11"On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep". Why is that? "That we may not be condemned with the world". When we see Jehoshaphat surrounded by the Syrians it looks as if he were sure to be killed. He was dressed in his royal attire and was exposed to the enemy. But Jehoshaphat cried to the Lord. Ahab did not cry to the Lord; Jehoshaphat, on the other hand, knew God. And perhaps you had to do with God when you were young; you used to pray to Him and He answered you; but now you have ceased doing so. Consider then, that now is an opportunity to cry to God. Jehoshaphat cried, and what happened? God helped him. God is here to help you. He turned away the Syrians from Jehoshaphat. This was God's salvation. He helps us when we cry to Him.

We read in the gospels of a man whose son was possessed by an evil spirit. It says of him that he cried, "If thou couldst do anything, ... help us". He got help from the Lord, and He will never refuse to listen to a real cry for help. Will you not turn to the Lord just as you are, and just where you are? Break with the world, for it is already judged, and there is no hope to be found for it. But there is hope for you; the Lord loves you too much to let you go the way the world is going. God was active during the battle to see to it that Ahab should not escape, but also in order to save Jehoshaphat. This meeting tonight has the same end in view, that you may escape the judgment that is hanging over this world. In the next chapter we see that Jehoshaphat was saved and returned in peace to Jerusalem.

We might say he came back into fellowship. He was saved from Ahab and all connection with him. Jerusalem in Scripture is the sphere of the testimony of God, and we who are in Jerusalem are longing to see those who have strayed from the testimony return. It says in Psalm 125, "Jerusalem! -- mountains are round about her". Salvation is found there. The Syrians cannot reach you there. The blessing of God is found there.

We read of Jehoshaphat that he returned to his house in peace to Jerusalem, but his conscience had to be awakened. Why had he been going on with the world? Why have you been away? These questions must be raised. Jehu the seer came to Jehoshaphat and said, "Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate Jehovah?". The seer applies the word to the conscience. It is no longer a question of delivering you from the Syrians, but a question of your soul being set right with God. The Spirit of God does this with us, and awakens our consciences. Later on Jehu said: "Therefore is wrath upon thee from Jehovah". If we turn to the world, we will have to bear the results of it; certain consequences in God's governmental dealing come over us, but, in spite of all, Jehoshaphat was saved, and he was restored and dwelt in Jerusalem.

A soul who is restored knows where he ought to live. Your salvation, blessing and joy depend upon your remaining in Jerusalem. Later "He went out again among the people from Beer-sheba to mount Ephraim, and brought them back to Jehovah the God of their fathers". He is a good brother now, and a valuable servant. In this type we see what is available to us, when we, so to speak, return to Jerusalem. You are restored, you live in Jerusalem, and you are useful in the Lord's service.

VISITS BY DIVINE PERSONS

Genesis 18:1 - 8

J.T. Abraham is the first man in Scripture of whom it says that God "appeared to him". God walked in the garden of Eden, Enoch walked with God, and Noah walked with God. God had intercourse with these, but it does not say that He appeared to them. Stephen says, "The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham". Acts 7:2. When God appeared to Abraham and later to others, it is clear that He wished to give them an impression of Himself. Stephen says that it was the God of glory who appeared to Abraham. He intended to show him His glory. It was the God of glory he saw, not yet God's glory. When Stephen speaks before the council, he speaks of the God of glory; later it says that he saw the glory of God. He saw this in heaven. The God of glory who appeared to Abraham had now reached His purpose in Christ in heaven. Stephen's face shone, for he was affected by it.

It says in Genesis 17:22, after God had spoken to Abraham, that He went up from him, and at the beginning of chapter 18 we find that God appeared to him again. What comes in between these two manifestations is that Abraham in obedience circumcised all the males of his house. When God told Abraham to circumcise every male of his house, it was in order to test him, and when Abraham did it, he showed his obedience to God. The Lord Jesus says: "He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me; but he that loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him", John 14:21. Manifestations of this kind depend on our obedience. If the light comes to us, and we walk according to this light, God will honour us. In Genesis 17:4, God

says, "It is I". Jehovah presented Himself personally to Abraham; it was not only certain characteristic features of Jehovah, but it was Himself. It was as when the Lord said to His disciples, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself". It is as if God would give Abraham a feeling of the mutual intimate conditions that existed between Himself and the patriarch. It is very precious when God says to us, "It is I", it gives our hearts confidence, and He who has said so also says, "I am the Almighty God".

Rem. It has been said that every time God appeared to Abraham. He communicated something fresh to him.

J.T. Yes, we have just noticed this principle, that when we take a step in obedience, we receive new communications from God. If we do not follow the light that comes to us, we do not get new light. When God had left off talking with Abraham the latter was immediately ready to obey this commandment, to circumcise his household.

Ques. Have we something similar in 2 Corinthians? As the saints were obedient to the exhortation in the first epistle, they got more light in the second.

J.T. And that is why the apostle in the second epistle emphasises their obedience, and he now presents the truth of reconciliation and new creation. We cannot expect anything in the way of manifestations, or fresh light from God, if we are not obedient to the light we have already received. When God revealed Himself to His people, it was because He would give them an impression of what He is. So that when He appeared to Abraham as the God of glory. He wished to convey to him an impression of another world. He could not connect His glory with a world that had turned its back on Him. Therefore He says to Abraham: "Go out of thy land, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, to the land

that I will shew thee", Genesis 12:1. This implies that there was another world, where the glory of God could shine, and that world is now established in connection with Christ where He is. The Holy Spirit has come to lead our souls into that world which Stephen saw in heaven. Paul's ministry which followed soon after Stephen's death was in view of forming the assembly, in which God shall have glory in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages (Ephesians 3:21). In Revelation we see the assembly; coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God (Revelation 21:10). The commandments of Christ are what now put our obedience to test. If we are obedient to His commandments, He will come to us and manifest Himself to us. The disciples were grieved when He spoke of going away, but He says: "I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one takes from you". He comes and manifests Himself to us, and the Father and He are coming and will make Their abode with us.

Ques. Is this more on individual lines?

J.T. Yes. John shows that even a single individual may enjoy this, and how in a day of ruin, the individual soul is sustained and helped. And if one soul can enjoy such a visit, then many individuals can.

Ques. What is the difference between the Lord revealing Himself to a soul, and that the Father and the Son make their abode with him?

J.T. Both these privileges are mentioned in John 14. The former is a promise to him who loves the Lord, and who keeps His commandments. One of His disciples then asks Him, how it is that He should manifest Himself to them, and not to the world, and He answers, "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him".

This promise is true of those who keep His word, and the former of those who keep His commandment. If anyone walk according to the light presented in the first epistle to the Corinthians, he will receive a manifestation of Christ; but keeping His word implies more than this, it involves that all the thoughts of God are kept in the heart, for instance, the truths of Colossians and Ephesians. To keep His word involves a spiritual state in the believer where He can make His abode.

Ques. Does this correspond to Philadelphian state?

J.T. Yes, "Thou ... hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name".

Ques. I should like to know if this is something to be experienced in the assembly only, or if it may be known to the individual.

J.T. I believe John shows us it may be the experience of an individual believer, the very smallest number. Matthew shows us that the privileges of the assembly can be enjoyed by two or three, but John shows that it may be enjoyed if there is only one found.

Ques. If there is none other found who is in the good of the truth of the assembly, can it nevertheless be enjoyed by him?

J.T. It says: "We will come to him". We should read John 14 together with Matthew 18. The one of whom it says in John 14 that he keeps His words and commandments has the same privilege as the two or three gathered to His name, or the "two of you" in Matthew 18:19, 20.

Rem. It has been said that if there is only one in the gathering who is in the good of John 14:22, 23, it would suffice for the Lord to come to us.

J.T. The Lord would be present, but it depends on the state of our souls if we can enjoy His presence. In 1 Corinthians 15 it says that He appeared to

above five hundred brethren at once. He had each one of those five hundred in His thoughts, but if there is only one in the gathering answering to John 14, we cannot expect that His presence should have the same effect. It is clear that all these five hundred brethren were in a state to appreciate His manifestation.

Rem. On the shore of the sea of Tiberias there was one who recognised Him.

J.T. That is a type of what we have been speaking. John says, "It is the Lord".

Ques. Is the Lord's presence among us always dependent upon our spiritual state, or can He come in independent of this?

J.T. We ought to see what Scripture says. In John 14 we have: "He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me; but he that loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him". This is the condition. And then in verse 18 we find what is normal, as it was at the beginning. He says: "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you". And in 1 Corinthians 15 we have six instances when He was seen by His own. Those to whom He manifested Himself were surely in a right condition. He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then He appeared to above five hundred brethren at once. Then to James, then to all the apostles, and Paul says, "and last of all, as to an abortion, he appeared to me also". Here there is no question of their state; that point is not raised. It is only stated that He appeared to all these. But we need also to bear in mind that the Lord may come in a different way to a certain place, as when He came to Bethany. So also when He came to the various assemblies in the book of Revelation, where we see Him walking among the assemblies. He speaks words of warning and says that He was coming to one and another

of the assemblies. In such cases He comes with chastening, and this is very serious, for if we do not walk rightly He must come to us in discipline. But John 14 and Matthew 18 have not this side in view, they are occupied with the privilege side.

Rem. If there were only one person in a place who had light about the assembly, one such man could not constitute the assembly.

J.T. No, but John 14 shows us that such a one might enjoy a visit by the Lord. We find the thought of the assembly in Matthew 18 where it speaks of two or three. "If two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be". We find here a praying company, and whatsoever the matters may be that they ask, it says, "It shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens". This shows that heaven acknowledges these. And these two or three enjoy the support of Christ, for they are gathered to His name, and He is in the midst of them. In the gospel of Matthew we see what particular persons are in view. It says: "Two of you". It is those of whom He had spoken.

Rem. It was two of those who had had a visit from the Lord?

J.T. Yes. There are many who have taken these verses in Matthew 18 as support for establishing a meeting in independency. But if we look at it as being any two or three believers, then these may go out and establish another meeting in the same place independent of those who are already gathered there to the name of the Lord; this is the principle in a free church, or the open principle.

Rem. Many religious parties refer to this scripture, saying that they are gathered on this ground.

J.T. Yes, and even those who are walking in disobedience. We need to read this verse more than any other in its connection. It has in view those whom the Lord had before Him from chapters 13

to 18. In chapter 18 we see that it is possible for a man to sin against his brother, and that he may refuse to listen to the assembly. This person finds perhaps one or more who are influenced in the same direction as himself, and they establish another meeting and claim the word in Matthew 18 as support for this. But this is a misapplication of the scripture, for in that case this verse would justify independence in its worst form.

Rem. You spoke of how the Lord might come to a certain place. Will you say a little more about it?

J.T. I was thinking of Bethany. He came to Bethany. He might even come to Gothenburg in the same way. If things are not right in a place He might come to them with chastisement, and this is very serious. If the Lord comes to Gothenburg, He comes in connection with His people in Gothenburg, but if He comes as we read of in John 14, then He does not come to His people in this place, but to him who keeps His commandments. John 14 does not speak of Him as coming to a certain place, but of how He comes to certain persons. We must remember that every believer in Gothenburg is of interest to Christ. When He writes to Laodicea it is to the assembly in Laodicea. He has this place in view, and He speaks of judgment, and of how He stands at the door and knocks. Think of the Lord coming to Gothenburg, to all the many believers there, and having to stand at the door knocking! This is what He is doing.

Ques. If it is a question of judgment He comes to a place, but when our privileges are the point He comes to the individual, as we find in John 14?

J.T. Yes, that is right. And when He writes to the assemblies the different places are in mind. The letters to the assemblies may be applied at the present time.

Ques. I wondered if Jehovah's visit to Abraham brought out what Abraham was personally?

J.T. I believe that is the thought. God had left off talking to him and had gone up from him. Later He comes back. But in the meantime Abraham was obedient to the commandment and had circumcised his household, and he is in a right pilgrim condition. He sat at the tent-door, and instead of taking his ease, and lying down to sleep in the heat of the day, he has his eyes open. "And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, three men standing near him". Thus we find that if it is a single person who keeps His word, divine Persons can come, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit who is here already. So that we have three divine Persons, and beside them one who keeps His word. What a company! Jehovah appeared to Abraham in a wondrous way. It says that three men stood before him. Wonderful that they stood before him! Abraham perceives that the Lord is there amongst them. Two of them were angels, but they came as men, and that was why Abraham felt at home with them. We have here the thought of 'making abode with him', for they stayed a good while. The thought of making abode is that they remained and did not hasten away. It must have taken Abraham a good long while to fetch and dress the tender calf, and then we read how the Lord was detained by Abraham, and that He did not go away till He had ended speaking to Abraham.

Ques. Are these men a type of what we have in the New Testament?

J.T. Yes, it is a foretaste of what we have at this present time. They speak in the plural to Abraham: "They said, So do as thou hast said". God desires to let us know what heaven is. On the mount of transfiguration we see Moses and Elias talking with Jesus.

Ques. It says that "no one has seen God at any time", but Abraham called One of these three the Lord. How are we to understand this?

J.T. The import of that verse in John 1 is that no one can see God in His divine Being. But this does not hinder the Lord making Abraham know that it was the Lord. We have the same truth in connection with Jesus, that the Son has become man that we may learn to know God in Him. It is God having come within the reach of our souls.

Ques. Can we say that the meal Abraham made was something like the meal they made for the Lord in Bethany?

J.T. Yes, there is great likeness. In both cases He came before the meal was ready. It says, "There therefore they made him a supper". It is the place that is stressed.

HOW THE LORD JESUS FELT SORROW AND JOY

John 12:27; Luke 10:21

These scriptures speak to us of the holy feelings that moved our Lord Jesus Christ, and show us what a real Man He was. In John's gospel it says that the Word was with God, and the Word was God. There is no change in His Person. He always remains a Person in the Godhead, yet He became a real Man, so that He is able to feel all things as man. I wish to speak about these two scriptures, but first I would refer to certain types in the Old Testament.

The Old Testament serves to make intelligible the truths about Christ presented in the New Testament. Our knowledge of Christ, and indeed of the truth, will be very deficient if we do not read and understand the Old Testament.

The eunuch on his way from Jerusalem to his country was reading the Old Testament, but it does not suffice to read, we need to understand also. There was one who had the Holy Spirit, and who was led by Him to follow the eunuch's chariot; as getting alongside of the eunuch, he asked him if he understood what he was reading, to which he replied, "How should I then be able unless some one guide me? And he begged Philip to come up and sit with him". We know that the Holy Spirit has now come here, a Person who can explain the Old Testament to us. It says in Luke 24 that the Lord interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. It was by the Holy Spirit's guidance and by His help that Philip beginning from that scripture announced the glad tidings of Jesus to the eunuch. It is obvious that he was not limited to this scripture; nor was the Lord limited to only one scripture when he interpreted the Old Testament to His disciples. He began from Moses and from all the prophets and

"interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself". This gives us an entirely new view of the Scriptures. When we understand that in the whole Scripture is found that which concerns Christ, we should, if we love Him, love to read all that which has been written of Him thousands of years before He became Man. The personal and public glories of Christ have in a wonderful way been depicted and foreshadowed all through the Old Testament. We can scarcely find any presentation of the Lord Jesus in the New Testament that is not typified in the Old.

Now to come to our subject we find in Joseph a type of the personal feelings of the Lord Jesus. Joseph's brethren spoke to one another in his presence of the anguish of soul they had seen in him when they lifted him out of the pit and sold him to the Midianites. We read how Joseph turned away from them and wept when they said this. In this Joseph is a type of Christ, for He felt deeply that His brethren, the Jews, rejected him. We find even when Benjamin came to Joseph in Egypt that he went into the chamber to weep there when he saw him. This shows what a great love he had for his brother. These tears speak of deep love to a brother. We see here in a type the Lord's joy in His people, and in each one of us as those who are His brethren. Then again we find in Genesis 45 how Joseph expressed his feelings when he made himself known to his brethren, and how he wept aloud so that the Egyptians and Pharaoh's servants heard it. It says that he fell on his brother Benjamin's neck and wept, and that he kissed all his brethren, and wept upon them.

In all this, dear brethren, we see the love of Christ presented in type for us several hundred years before He became Man. It is very touching to think of it. The apostle Paul says: "The love of the Christ constrains us". He speaks of "The Son of God, who

has loved me and given himself for me". The Lord gave him an apprehension of His personal love to him, something like that when Joseph wept on Benjamin's neck. It ought to appeal to our hearts, that the Lord, when He died, loved each one of us personally. He loves us now, but the apostle spoke of the love the Lord had to him, when He died on the cross, for he says, "Who has loved me". It says nothing in Genesis 45 about Joseph's brethren, that they wept. It is said of Joseph that he fell on his brother Benjamin's neck and wept; and Benjamin wept on his neck. Benjamin, like the apostles Paul and John, responded to Joseph's love, but Joseph's love was for all his brethren.

We find also in the account of Moses that he wept when, as a little child, he lay in the ark of reeds in the sedge on the bank of the Nile. Both Joseph and David are types of Christ. In David we have not only a type of Christ, but even of a believer, and of what is working in his heart. We see how David wept when he came to Ziklag and found that the Amalekites had taken his and his men's wives captives, and carried them off and all their belongings. Things may happen to us in our life which seem to overwhelm us; they may seem as if they happened by chance, but they are not to be so considered. God will speak to our souls through them; He will call forth deep soul feelings in us. It says of David and his men, that they wept until they had no more power to weep. God's desire for us is, that we, as regards our experiences, should be in accord with Christ. He sometimes brings us very low, so that we do not see a way out; the difficulties seem to be overpowering, but this is God's way of prospering us; he ploughs up the soil in our hearts. He is longing to see us feel like Christ felt. David and his men wept till they had no more power to weep. It was a time of learning for them. David was a great servant

of God, and all this was in order to prepare him for his service. Paul says in one place that he even despaired of life, but he speaks of how God saved them (the apostle and Timothy) out of such a death, and he adds that he had the confidence that God in the future would save them as needed.

As regards David we see how he also strengthened himself in the Lord his God, and all that seemed lost was recovered. David was now a greater servant than he was before the event at Ziklag. He was to be prepared for other experiences; every testing was necessary for the presentation of the testimony of God. Everything that happens to us, great or small, is calculated to make us sober and humble, so that we feel all these things in fellowship with God. The result is that we can represent Him in relation to the testimony of the gospel and "encourage those who are in any tribulation whatever, through the encouragement with which we ourselves are encouraged of God".

Later on we find in David, when he parted from Jonathan, a beautiful expression of love, the feelings of love in a man when he loses a friend whom he loves. If a brother or sister is taken from us through death we are not insensible or indifferent as to it but we feel it deeply, and this is what God wishes to produce in us. He wills that we should feel compassion for men around us, who have not the light that we have. The four leprous men in Samaria said: "We are not doing right", to enjoy all this abundance whilst the people in Samaria are starving. And, dear brethren, if God gives to us so abundantly, it is only right that we should think of starving men and women around us. These leprous men said: "This day is a day of good tidings". And they went back to the king and to those who were in the city. If we had the same feelings for men as God has, we should be evangelical. When David parted from Jonathan

it says that they kissed each other and wept together, and David exceeded. The love of the Lord never abates. If we turn from Him He loves us still. David wept more than Jonathan.

We see from what I have said that there are numerous scriptures in the Old Testament that speak of the feelings of Christ, especially in the Psalms of David. The Lamentations even are an expression of this. We find in the book of Ezra, when the foundation of the temple was being laid, that the ancient men who remembered the first temple wept, but the younger ones shouted for joy, so that one could not discern the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people. We should even in our day, if we have God's interests before us, feel the great difference between this time and the day of Pentecost. We should feel how very much smaller and weaker everything is than in the days of the apostles, but at the same time we should find our joy in all that which is of God at the present time; in other words, our hearts are not insensible, but we feel things and find our joy in what God works now.

Now I wish to speak of the two scriptures in John and Luke. The Lord Jesus says, "Now is my soul troubled". We see what a real man He was both as to spirit, soul and body, as we say. He was troubled in His soul when He thought of the death He was about to die, for He was on His way to death. No one could take His life from Him. He said: "I lay it down of myself". And He took it again according to the commandment He had received from His Father. But He was going to die, and He knew what death was, for as a divine Person He knew perfectly what the work of atonement involved. Therefore He says, "Now is my soul troubled, and what shall I say?". If any great calamity was going to happen to me, and my soul was deeply distressed at it, what should I say? I should pray God to deliver me out

of it. But He says: "Father, glorify thy name". We see from this how the deep feelings in Jesus that were found in His soul, found an expression in His perfect subjection to His Father's will, and here it was not only a question of His Father's will, but even of the glorification of His Father. He was concerned about His Father's name being glorified. Our desires as children of God ought to be that His name should be glorified first of all.

It says here, "There came therefore a voice out of heaven, I both have glorified and will glorify it again". We see what perfect harmony was found in feelings between the Father and the Son. We might even say that all the holy feelings that are found in the hearts of the people of God are perfectly known to the Father. It says that He searches our hearts and knows what is the mind of the Spirit, for He intercedes for the saints according to God. He intercedes for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. These groanings find their expression in our innermost feelings, and that is why God searches our hearts. It says too that the Holy Spirit knows the depths of God, and God searches the depths of our hearts. And what is it that God finds in our hearts when He searches them? Does He find, I wonder, that we groan over conditions in christendom at the present time? God marks our groanings. In Ezekiel 9, as we remember, we find that God commanded a mark to be set upon the foreheads of the men that sighed and that cried for all the abominations that were done in Jerusalem. Then, dear brethren, every one of us, young or old, who sighs and who feels the condition of things in the same way as God feels it is marked by Him.

All that which I have said now stands in connection with the cross of Christ and with the sorrow which sin has brought into the world. We remember how the Lord wept at the grave of Lazarus. One of

the most precious words in Scripture is this, "Jesus wept". But Luke gives us another view. From John's gospel we learn to feel things deeply; Luke too acknowledges this, but he will lift up our spirits. At the very beginning of Luke's gospel we find a tone of rejoicing, of heavenly joy. We find a child, John the baptist, not yet born that "leaped" with joy at the thought of the Lord's birth. We see Mary, the mother of the Lord, Elizabeth and Zacharias filled with joy; we find also Simeon and Anna blessing God, and above all we have a multitude of the heavenly host praising God. We have here the bright side. If we for a moment could look into heaven and see the place which Jesus has there, we could not but rejoice. While the shepherds were keeping watch by night over their flock, an angel of the Lord was there by them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them. And then there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, "Glory to God in the highest". We find here in Luke 2 that the heavenly multitude comes down. It is as if heaven surrounds us, that we might apprehend what heaven is and not be downcast, but lifted up in our souls in the light of what heaven is.

In chapter 10 we see that Jesus rejoiced in spirit. Here He is not sorrowful, but He rejoices in spirit. And what is the cause of this holy joy of our Lord Jesus? He says, "I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes". We see that we are the cause of this joy. The Lord of heaven and earth has hid certain things from the wise, but has revealed them to babes. What a place we have in His heart! He had told them just before not to rejoice in the spirits being subjected to them, but that they should rejoice that their names were written in heaven. The seventy

that had been sent out had returned and told the Lord how the spirits were subject to them in His name; in other words they had been very successful in their service, but we must not have our life in our service or in the success we may have in it. It is very blessed to be in the service of Christ and to prosper in it, but the Lord tells us in so many words that we should rather rejoice that our names are written in the heavens.

How little we understand of this, that if our names were mentioned in heaven, they would be well known there already. If any one of our names should be mentioned in the royal palace in Stockholm tonight it would not at all be known there; but if our names were intimated in heaven, they are well known there, for they are written there. In Hebrews 12 it says, that we belong to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven. This gives us a place there, and we rejoice at it. As those who are faithful followers of Christ, we have no name in this world; our name is cast away, as if it were an evil thing, but our names are written in the book of life, in heaven. Not only are we looked upon as being among the living, but we are reckoned as those who belong to the most elevated family in the universe. I am not saying this in a boasting spirit, but under the impression of how great all this is.

As faithful and devoted followers of Christ we have no name in the world; it will not acknowledge us. "Away with such a one as that from the earth", they said of Paul, "for it was not fit he should live". They had said the same of the Lord Jesus. "Take him away, take him away, crucify him". When His name is mentioned in the world, we notice how He is rejected, but if you just then were able to look into heaven, you would see how He is regarded there. Paul was so highly esteemed in heaven, that one day he was caught up into paradise; he says, "caught up

to the third heaven", 2 Corinthians 12:2. It was not as an apostle but as "a man in Christ" that he was caught up. We see that heaven knew him and esteemed him highly. And in connection with this the apostle says, "Of such a one I will boast". Why should not we boast of the dignity God has given us in heaven? Therefore the Lord says in Luke 10, "Rejoice that your names are written in the heavens". And the Lord Himself rejoices in spirit at this thought. The very thought to have us, to have the assembly with Himself in heavenly glory and dignity, made Him rejoice in His holy spirit.

May God speak to our hearts, so that we are exercised, feeling deeply the state of things around us, and at the same time apprehending more what a place we have in heaven.

HOW GOD PREPARES A DWELLING FOR HIMSELF AMONG HIS PEOPLE

Exodus 1:21; Exodus 2:1 - 3; Exodus 15:20, 21; Exodus 35:25, 26

I believe that these women, mentioned in Exodus, give us a thought of the result which God will effect in our souls. In the Bible the woman represents the subjective side; that is to say, the work of God in our souls and the result of it. The objective truth is presented in Christ, and the subjective is the outcome of the work of God in us by the Spirit. In every book in the Bible we find some special feature of the truth, and I believe that in each particular book the women whose names are mentioned point out to us what these features are. We see this both in the Old Testament and in the gospels in the New Testament, as also in the Acts. God takes up things we can see before our eyes, in order to show us what He has in mind.

These women in Exodus give us a thought of what God will teach us in connection with the truth in this book. The first women of whom we read are the Hebrew midwives. We remember that Pharaoh had charged them to kill all the male children as soon as they were born. These Hebrew male children were in type sons of God. It says in the first chapter of this book: "These are the names of the sons of Israel who had come into Egypt". They were viewed from the spiritual side, not only as the sons of Jacob, but as the sons of Israel. We have here the thought of a spiritual family; and the desire of the enemy is to destroy this family; he therefore orders the two women, whose names are mentioned, to kill the children. They disobey this order. A feature that we often find in women is that they hide their actions, and we find the same in these women when they refused to enter the enemy's service. In certain cases it can be right to keep secret what one is doing. In

Colossians we have the wonderful truth called the mystery, and in this epistle our life even is said to be hid. Thus in the service of God are found hidden things, and things that are revealed. We need wisdom to act in secret in order to frustrate the intention and work of the enemy.

We see here that the enemy's purpose was to destroy the spiritual family. This family was called Hebrews, which indicated that they were suffering reproach. As those being born of God and having the Spirit of God, even we suffer reproach, and the enemy would destroy all such. At the present time it is not through literal death he seeks to destroy us, but through the influence of the world. God is carrying out a work in the hearts of His people, and this in view of preparing a shelter for the young and the newly converted ones. It is when the spiritual life in a soul begins to appear that the enemy endeavours to destroy it. Therefore the young converts need the greatest care. They do not know to what dangers they are exposed, but we, who are older, know. These two women received special blessing from God. One does not need special gift to care for the young, but more a spiritual instinct, wishing to protect the new life that is in them. God will specially honour and encourage such a service, for it says that God dealt well with them and built them houses. What a precious thought this is, that God will give spiritual increase on account of this service, as we, in spite of the enemy's bidding, have sought to protect the spiritual life in the young, that there might be found an Israel of God according to the word of the apostle: "And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace upon them and mercy, and upon the Israel of God". In the eyes of the enemy we are regarded with reproach like Hebrews, but in the eyes of God we are the Israel of God.

In the second chapter we read of the mother of Moses that she saw him that he was fair. The midwives did not take into consideration whether the children were fair or not. They saved the male children, but for the mother of Moses it was the fairness of the child which was of such importance, as it says in Hebrews 11, that they saw the child beautiful. This was, of course, another reason why they should protect the child. All believers are fair and pleasing in the eyes of God, even if this trait has not yet come out in them, for God knows the end from the beginning. As those who are born of Him, we shall all be fair, for we shall all be like Christ. When Gideon asked the kings of Midian about his brethren they answered, "As thou art, so were they; each one resembled the sons of a king". In the light of all this we see of what value the saints are, and how important it is that we should protect them against the enemy. This woman hid the child; she protected it from the enemy's influence and power. We find in this woman the principle of preserving what is of God from the power of the enemy. Young believers are in a special way exposed to the enemy's power through the influence of the world. In type the mother of Moses delivered the child to death. This corresponds to what we do when we let a child come under the water of baptism, the type of the death of Christ. When Moses was put into this ark of bulrushes which was prepared with such care, he was saved. We may say that even the daughter of Pharaoh had something of this woman's spirit about her. She was in her mind quite unlike the others in her father's house; she showed mercy.

When one goes about amongst the people of God one perceives what great lack there is of gift to preach the gospel and even of ability to serve the people of God. But if this secret womanly service that ought to characterise every one of us, brothers

as well as sisters, is found amongst us, we should find that young people would grow up in our midst, and they would be furnished with gifts. Another thing that we find in Exodus is that they who served God did not fear the wrath of the king. It says of the parents of Moses that they did not fear the injunction of the king. They did not obey it in spite of the consequences. And it says of Moses that he did not fear the wrath of the king. This service requires courage.

The next woman we may consider is Miriam. She is mentioned by name for the first time here in Exodus 15, and she is called a prophetess. She was no doubt, Moses' sister, the one who watched over him when he lay in the ark in the sedge of the Nile. Very early she commenced this service of which I have been speaking, but now we find that she is called a prophetess. It is obvious that she was an old woman here, older than both Aaron and Moses. We find even that she had grown in her soul. It is something remarkable that a woman should be a prophetess. God would not use any person to represent Him and make known His thoughts if he was not characterised by His features. Miriam had, no doubt, for a long time walked with God in secret, and therefore she could be called a prophetess, and not only this, but we read that she took the tambour in her hand and led the women in song. We see that she had a great influence over the other women, for they all went out after her with tambours and with dances. When we consider how many women there were in Israel then, we understand what influence she had.

It is of great importance to exercise a good influence over the people of God. They all followed her, and she did not lead them astray. It is, alas, possible for a sister or a brother to lead the people of God astray. It is most sorrowful when one having

influence amongst the people of God leads them astray. But he who by his influence is able to lead the people of God in the right path is of the greatest value amongst the saints. We see here how all the women went after her. They followed her with music which speaks of something that calls forth response from our hearts. It is important to have understanding in the things of God, but it is great value to be able to call forth spiritual feelings in the people of God; and this was what Miriam did here. When we come together as we do at this time or in one another's houses, our hearts are moved with spiritual things and spiritual feelings. This is a feature that enters into the peace-offering. There is a state of spiritual joy coming in amongst the saints, and the meetings are not dull but vigorous and characterised by refreshment and holy joy. The Lord gets His portion in all this. We see here that all the women are in this, and it says that Miriam answered them: "Sing to Jehovah, for he is highly exalted: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea". So that in Miriam we find the ability of calling forth the best feelings, and she is also able to give an answer; she apprehends the position: "Jehovah ... is highly exalted". Here we see the full result of the work which the midwives commenced, but now it is no longer a service in secret, it is a public service, for the enemy was conquered, and God was exalted.

The final thought I had in mind is found in chapter 35 where the great result comes out, that is, the tabernacle and the women's part in the making thereof. It says, "And every, woman that was wise-hearted spun with her hands". We come now to a work done with hands, a work that had the dwelling of God in view. All this, dear brethren, is something which ought to be found in every local place where the saints are, for if we save the saints from

the enemy, and if we protect the spiritual family and call forth the innermost feelings of their hearts, then all this is in view of God having a dwelling here. Every woman who was wise-hearted spun with her hands, and she brought what she had spun. It was the work of hands, it was a personal service with their hands, and therefore they brought it, the blue and the purple, scarlet and byssus. Later it says: "Every man and woman whose heart prompted them to bring". Here we see that it came from their hearts. The Holy Spirit sheds abroad the love of God in our hearts with the result that we love God, and our hearts move us so that we desire there should be a dwelling for God here.

From all this we see, dear brethren, how these women speak to us of the great result that is in view in Exodus. We find the family of God, saved from the world, preserved in spiritual life. Thus we see how the innermost feelings and love of the saints come out, and at last the work which we can do with our hands, so that God might have a dwelling amongst us as it says in Ephesians: "In whom ye also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit".

HOW WE MAY ENJOY THE INHERITANCE

Joshua 2:8 - 11; Joshua 15:18, 19; Joshua 17:3 - 6

Some of us have recently noticed how the instruction in certain books of the Bible is illustrated by the women who are mentioned in these books. In the scriptures which we have read we find also certain women: Rahab, Achsah, Caleb's daughter, and the five daughters of Zelophehad all mentioned by name. In Rahab we find one of the features which illustrates the truth that specially comes out in this book. She shows us the result which God would attain in each one of us as those who believe in Christ.

The Old Testament was written for our instruction. Peter tells us that it was revealed to the prophets "that not to themselves but to you they ministered those things, which have now been announced to you". As regards Rahab, I think that we may consider her history with a view to the instruction that we may get through what the scripture says about her. She is mentioned three times in the New Testament, and what is said of her there is of great help to understand what is written of her in the book of Joshua. In Hebrews 11 it says: "By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with the unbelieving, having received the spies in peace". She sent them off "by another way"; it was not the usual way. In Hebrews she is viewed as one who is saved on the principle of faith, and in James's epistle we find that she put forth the spies "by another way". Many believers are justified by faith, and on account of being believers they cannot be lost, but it is not always true that they follow "another way"; they rather continue in the same way as they went before, a more or less worldly way, and they walk like men do. In this they do not resemble Rahab, they have not taken up "another way".

When Rahab is mentioned in Scripture she is nearly always called Rahab the harlot; she appears as a sinner, and she represents a soul that has gone astray and who needs to be set right. Mary of Magdala in the New Testament is also such a one; it says that "from whom seven demons had gone out". The woman of Luke 7 was also one such, and Saul of Tarsus was the chief of sinners. We may also mention the woman at the well of Sychar. The Spirit of God makes mention of all these in order to show us what grace can effect. The woman at the well of Sychar had sunk very deep, and she needed to be set right. The Lord Jesus laid bare her life when He said: "Go, call thy husband, and come here". All that marked her past life as well as what she was now, was thus exposed; marriage was not kept in honour by her, and that bond was very little esteemed. This woman was to call her husband. This shows us what import God gives to the marriage bond. In 1 Corinthians 7:16 it says: "For what knowest thou, O wife, if thou shalt save thy husband? or what knowest thou, O husband, if thou shalt save thy wife?"

As I have said before, Rahab is named in the New Testament both in Hebrews and in James as Rahab the harlot. But we find also that she got a very honoured place, her name being in the genealogy of Christ, and this confirms what was said of her in the book of Joshua, chapter 6. After being saved out of Jericho we are told that she dwelt in the midst of Israel, to this day. She is the type of a soul who has been saved from perishing along with the unbelieving. But she is also a type of a believer who takes another way. We ought to take another way than the one we were in before we were converted. One can doubt if a person really is a christian if he does not follow another way. Rahab is also the type of a christian who dwells among the people of God.

She continued to dwell amongst the people of Israel, and she got a place in the genealogy of Christ.

When she hid the spies we are told that she had stalks of flax which were laid out upon the roof of her house; they were a token that she sought to follow what was right. Flax in Scripture generally has to do with holiness, at least what would help us to holiness. She had this flax laid out upon the roof, which shows that when the two spies came to her house, she was already, so to speak, converted. She had also comprehended something about the power of God. In the book of Joshua it is a question of taking possession of the land, the inheritance. We cannot, dear brethren, take possession of our inheritance without the power and help of God, for the enemy is there; but God has given us power. It says in 2 Timothy, "For God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion". Rahab is also the type of a christian who knows something of the power of the Spirit of God. She says to the spies: "For we have heard that Jehovah dried up the waters of the Red sea before you". She had also heard what they had done to the two kings of the Amorites, Sihon and Og. She had in type apprehended what God did through the death and resurrection of Christ, and even what saints can do in the power of the Spirit of God. We see, dear brethren, that she is in pattern a believer who enters upon and takes possession of the inheritance which God has given us in His love.

The next woman we find in chapter 15; that is Achsah. She is very unlike Rahab, for she belonged to the family of faith. Rahab came into the family of believers, but Achsah was born in a believing family. Her father was Caleb, a man, who forty years before this was characterised by faith. It was he who, along with eleven other messengers, went up from Kadesh to spy out the land, and who spoke

well about it and even sought to persuade the people of God that they were well able to take possession of the land of Canaan. Achsah foreshadows here those of us who have been born amongst the people of God. What a great privilege this woman had to have had such a father! She seemed to have followed his faith and his desires. I think this is something for the young ones to think of, these who have believing parents, that they might not be behind them, but turn to their own account what their parents possess. An inheritance of faith has come to them through their parents. What we find in this woman is very beautiful. She desired these springs from her father. She dwelt in the midst of the inheritance. I speak to young men and women here. You come to the meetings and you listen to much that is presented from the word of God, not only about salvation, but even about God's purposes of love. How do you think you can be preserved in this precious light? It can only be through what corresponds to the springs of water. This woman desired springs from her father. She says: "Give me a blessing; for thou hast given me a southern land; give me also springs of water". Even we, who are older in faith, can only be preserved in freshness and enjoyment of our inheritance in the measure in which we make room for the Spirit of God. We have our usual weekly meetings, but what room do we there make for the Spirit of God? A token of the Spirit of God being free is the mutual conditions of love that are found among the saints; each one ought to know his own responsibility as one who possesses the Spirit of God.

I would challenge my own heart: how much am I of help at the meetings? It is easy to be occupied with mistakes and complain of weakness, but the question is, Can I be of any help? If I have received the Spirit of God and make room for Him, I ought to be one who contributes. If everyone of us took up

our responsibility, we should together be able to enjoy the inheritance; the meetings would then be neither tiresome nor dry, but refreshing. It says in Psalm 104, "The trees of Jehovah are satisfied". We are in this way liberated from being dependent on the service of a single man, and place should be given for any little gift which might be found amongst us, and we should enjoy the upper and lower springs. In this way we should all make progress in our souls and enjoy peace and joy and be able to praise and worship God. Even a sister who is to be silent can, if the Spirit of God is not grieved in her, contribute to make the meetings fresh and the saints edified. We see how beautiful this woman's conduct was when she came to her father. It says she sprang down from the ass. When the Holy Spirit is not grieved in us, there is life and energy. "But if Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness". It was a question here of life and energy. She did not alight in ease from the ass on which she was riding, but she sprang down. We find what reverence she had for her father.

The women which we will speak of last are the five daughters of Zelophehad. We read of them in Numbers. They came to Moses and Eleazar at the tent of meeting and said to them, "Our father died in the wilderness, and he was not in the band of them that banded themselves together against Jehovah in the band of Korah; but he died in his own sin, and he had no sons". They recognise that he died for his own sin, but he was no rebel like those in the band of Korah, and these women now claim an inheritance amongst their father's brethren. The sisters must not be without the inheritance. Sometimes sisters think they are wholly dependent on the brothers, but in these five women we find urgency to get the inheritance. They first came to

Moses in the wilderness, and now when they had come into the land they came to Joshua and Eleazar. According to divine command Moses had complied with their desire to have their father's inheritance. This commandment of Moses corresponds for us to the truth of the epistle to the Romans. Romans shows us we have right to the inheritance, and many are satisfied with that, but these women were not satisfied with it. They came to Joshua, and this corresponds in a spiritual meaning with Colossians and Ephesians. We ought not to be contented with having a right to the inheritance; we need also to enter into it. Thus we find, dear brethren, how they a second time went to claim their lot. We are told that they got what they desired and obtained an inheritance amongst their brethren. Perhaps you say, I live far away from the meeting, or, I have so much to do, or, I have poor health. But these women would have answered you: You must be among your brethren. The inheritance is yours, but you can only enjoy it among your brethren.

What I have said shows something of what the book of Joshua teaches us. Firstly how we may come into righteousness, like Rahab did. We cannot enjoy our inheritance if every question of our sins and our daily life has not been settled; we must stand in a right position God-ward. Then we get a place among the people of God, an honoured place, like the one Rahab got. "She dwelt in the midst of Israel to this day". Then further it will be a question of life and freshness, that is to say, the Spirit of God gets His place in us, and at last, that the inheritance I have received, can only be enjoyed amongst my brethren. From Numbers 36 we see that these women, Zelophehad's daughters, were not to marry outside their tribe. We ought not to be connected with anything outside the christian family. All these

women married within the tribe of Joseph. This is a very important matter for me to ponder, that every connection which I may take up outside the Lord's authority is a hindrance to the enjoyment of the inheritance.

THE BLESSING OF A BELIEVER'S HOUSE

Genesis 16:7 - 9, 13, 14; Genesis 21:14 - 21

I suggested these two scriptures for two reasons; first because in them we have the idea of a well or spring, and secondly because they speak of two persons who belong to a believer's house, and whom God sought to bless because they belonged to a believer's house. The idea of a well, it may be remarked, has a very great place in Scripture. It is found frequently in this book and throughout other books of scripture whether in the Old or New Testament, and suggests what is living as meeting man's need. It may therefore be regarded as typical of the system of grace which God has established in Christ, which system involves not only doctrine and light, but what is living. The Holy Spirit came down from heaven as sent down by the Lord Jesus Christ as exalted up there; it is therefore a living system of things.

The apostle Peter in his first great gospel address alludes to it. The Holy Spirit was present at Pentecost in Jerusalem, and men and women were possessed of Him. And they were supremely happy, so much so that the unregenerate around thought they were full of new wine, but Peter explains that they were not filled with new wine as was supposed, but that a wonderful power had come down from Christ in heaven and had taken possession of them, so that he says, referring to Christ, that "being by the right hand of God exalted ... he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear". It was there, you see; it was obviously there, and thousands of his hearers said to him and to the others standing by him, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?". His answer was, "Repent, and be baptised, each one of you ... for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of

the Holy Spirit". Then he adds, The promise is unto you and unto your children. This wonderful gift from God was there and was available to believers. It was, as I said, symbolised by a spring or well, that which springs up, which refreshes and satisfies, which indeed, as the Lord said Himself, shall be "a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life".

This symbol is found in the two scriptures read, and it is found for the first time in these. Water is spoken of earlier; we have it in oceans, in seas, in lakes, and in rivers, and in each of these divisions of water God has been thinking of men. But a well is a peculiar provision, as if God would think not only of the masses of men, but of every single person in the world. An ocean may serve millions of people at once, but a well suggests provision made for one person or for a family, and, as I said, it is peculiar in that it springs up and contains the element of refreshment and satisfaction; hence it is a beautiful symbol of the system of grace that God has established in Christ.

Now I want to show how it is connected with these two persons belonging to Abraham's house, knowing that many young ones here belong to households of faith. Abraham is said to be the father of all believers; he is the great patriarch, and so may be taken to represent every believer who has a household. It is said of Abraham that he would command his children and his house after him. In seeking to command their houses, believers are oft-times profoundly concerned about the members of their households, and God knows this. God has great regard for the head of a house who is concerned about every member of his house, and He will work with us in the salvation of our children. But in working with us. He would work through us, and if He is to work through us we must feel things. If we are concerned about a thing we will pray to

God, and God will never fail to answer the prayer of faith.

The first of these persons is called Hagar, and what is said of her is that an angel found her by a well. And what was she occupied in when he found her? In the path of disobedience, showing that God follows us up although we take the path of disobedience. She was disobedient, and if we are to be blessed through Christ, the element of obedience must show itself. The apostle Paul said, "I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision", but here is a member of Abraham's house actually fleeing from that house. From whom is she fleeing? From her mistress; from one who had authority over her; like many young men and women to whom the home authority becomes irksome, who wish to be free of it. The authority that God has placed in our parents is the very best kind of authority; it is the authority of love.

Now you may say. Hagar was not fleeing from her parent. No, she was fleeing from her mistress; she was fleeing from one who had authority over her. Sarah is one of the most remarkable personages in Scripture; she belongs to the holy women of Scripture. True enough it is said that she oppressed Hagar, but then, she was her mistress, and Hagar was her bond-slave. So that you see she was entitled to exercise authority, and Hagar was manifesting an insubordinate will. Her mistress was being despised in her eyes. In other words Hagar is here therefore a type of an insubordinate young man or woman in a believer's household, and rather than submit to the authority, she flees. But where was she fleeing? That is the question the angel asks her. Where wilt thou go? he asks.

I would say to you young people whose faces are towards the world. Where are you going? You say, I want to see a bit of the world and my parents will

not allow me to go to the cinema or theatre; I want a free hand. But then, where will you go? You go to the theatre, but what is after that? Year after year rolls on, and old age comes, and what then? You have had your fling in the world, but what then? You are passing away and the world is passing away, but what is the end? The angel says to her, Where wilt thou go? and all that she could say was that she was fleeing; in that she told the truth. Young people are blinded as to what this world is. I have seen it on good authority that ten thousand young people go from the country into New York every year; they go to join the chorus and the theatres and what not, and they are not heard of again. And so I say, Where will you go? what is the end of this course? The world, you see, eats people up, though you think you may shine in it.

The angel says to Hagar, Where wilt thou go? He found her by a well of water. The angel of God is after this fleeing rebellious woman. It may be that Sarah was pleased that she left; it does not appear that she made any effort to recover her. And so it is that young people may leave their father's houses and their mother's houses, but God's eye is upon them. It may be that the door is on the latch for you to come back; that may be as it was in this case, for evidently Abraham's house was open to her to return, but there is no indication that Abraham or Sarah sent anyone after her. But look! God sent an angel from heaven after her. Is it not remarkable evidence of the grace of God? It says that the angel found her by a spring of water in the wilderness -- by the spring on the way to Shur; that is to say, it is not simply any spring, but a particular one, one that could be located. In other words in the spiritual application of it, it is a spring known to us who are christians, and you are by it at this very minute. So to speak, the angel of the Lord is

here to find you; he would remind you that you have been in the path of self-will, and that your salvation depends on giving up that path. So that he says, 'Return to thy mistress Sarah and be submissive to her'. You see, something had happened that brought out the insubordinate character of the woman. She had set out on a path of destruction and her only salvation lay in giving up that path and returning to her mistress Sarah.

Well now, I would appeal to young people here tonight, that the angel of the Lord, or rather, the Lord Himself, is here to save you. But there must be submission; God is not going to fill heaven with insubject people. In His patience He has tolerated lawlessness in men for thousands of years on the earth, but all self-will and lawlessness is going to be cleared away; all must be in subjection to Christ. And so the word here is, 'Return and submit yourself'; that is the point. Hagar listens and she called the name of Jehovah who spoke to her, "Thou art the God who reveals himself". That is to say, she is in the presence of God. What a wonderful opportunity for her! Then the well that is alluded to here receives a name that remains -- Beer-lahai-roi, meaning 'the well of Him that seeth me'. That is the well. It is on the way to Shur, we are told. We christians know that; it is the well of Him that sees. We christians know what it is to come under the searching eye of a holy God -- like that well-known woman at Sychar who said, "Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did". She understood, you see, what it meant -- the well of Him that sees. Every true christian is thankful that God is seeing into his inmost soul, and as we judge ourselves before God, we come into the benefit of this well. This well is connected with Isaac later; it is seen as Rebecca approaches him. He stands related to this well. That is to say, Christ in heaven stands related

to this well. So that the assembly knows, Rebecca knows, the significance of the well. Rebecca is a type of the assembly composed of all believers; she understood the value of the well. She was accustomed to carrying the water pitcher and filling it at the well. When Abraham's servant drew near she let down the water pitcher and he drank; she gave him drink and the camels also. That shows that all true believers come into the appreciation and use of the well.

Now I want to show from chapter 21 that whilst this well was available to Hagar, apparently she never got the good of it. And this is a warning to all young people, that whilst God follows you up in grace, you may in the end not get the good of it. The time may come when you will have to say, 'The harvest is passed and the summer is ended and I am not saved'. Hagar had returned to Abraham's house, but her offspring of whom it was said, he would be a wild ass of a man, had proved himself to be this, and now both she and he are cast out. How dreadful to be actually cast outside of a believer's house. It is one thing to flee in self-will, but it is another to be cast out. The word is, "Cast out this handmaid and her son". You may say, 'One in that case is beyond salvation'. Not yet. Not yet, young man; you belong to a christian's house, and God has great regard for the prayers of your father and mother, and although you are outcast, God is still following you up. So you find Hagar and Ishmael here in the wilderness; the water in the bottle that Abraham put upon her is all spent. Like the prodigal she has nothing now, but look -- let this touch our hearts!

It says in verse 15, "The water was exhausted from the flask; and she cast the child under one of the shrubs, and she went and sat down over against him, a bow-shot off; for she said, Let me not behold the death of the child. And she sat over against

him, and lifted up her voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad". You see, you are in dire distress now, you are an outcast with no water to drink, and no bread to eat; death is staring you in the face. And what happens? God heard the voice of the lad. You see, He had not given them up. He will go to the utmost extremity; whilst you are in the body there is hope; whilst this wonderful gospel day remains there is hope for the greatest sinner. Although so self-willed, so crooked that you are cast out even from the household in which you have been brought up, yet God hears the voice of the lad; God heard it in heaven. A young boy thirteen or fourteen years of age, cast under a shrub to die, but God heard the voice of the lad. Does it not touch your heart? If there is a cry going up from your heart for salvation, God hears it. There is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. Jesus died for such as you. Could there be a greater wild ass of a man than Saul of Tarsus "breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord", and yet a voice from heaven calls him by name, "Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me?"

Ishmael had been persecuting Isaac, and he is an outcast, but God hears his voice. It is the dispensation of grace -- the grace that carries salvation for all men has appeared. And so God heard the voice of the lad; He heard it where the lad was. And where was he? He was under a shrub, about to die, cast there to die. God heard his voice where he was. In other words, God knows all about your circumstances. You may have gone far into the world and indulged yourself -- disgraced your parents it may be, dishonoured the Lord's name it may be, but now, you see, a voice goes up, a cry of need, and God hears you where you are. Well now, you will observe in verse 18 the angel says to Hagar, "Arise, take the

lad, and hold him in thy hand". Now, you see, the time of salvation is at your very door. She was to hold him in her hand. The point is that for which you are responsible. Hagar was here responsible for her boy; she is to take him in her hands.

In the epistle to the Romans I learn that I stand before God in my responsibility; I stand before the bar of God as convicted -- a sinner. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. My case is truly hopeless unless God acts. And so that epistle says, "But now ... the righteousness of God is manifested towards ... all, and upon all those who believe: for there is no difference ... being justified freely by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God has set forth a mercy seat, through faith in his blood". You see, that is exactly Hagar's position, she is standing with the boy in her hands before God. And so in Romans 3 the sinner stands before God in his responsibility, and he is truly lost unless God acts for him. But God has acted for us; He has sent forth His Son -- "whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood". So that God is "just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus".

Well now, all this grace is brought to Hagar and Ishmael. It says in verse 19 that God opened her eyes and she saw the well of water. As I have been saying, it is God's wonderful system of grace that He has set up for us. He opens her eyes to see it. May He open your eyes, and may you embrace this wonderful opportunity of being saved, to receive forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, so that the well is in yourself, that which, as it says, is in the believer a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. As the Lord further says, "Whosoever drinks of the water ... shall never thirst for ever". Would you not like to have such water, such a well? We are not speaking merely of

theoretical things; we know what we are speaking about; we have this well in us. We do not thirst; we have in us that which springs up into everlasting life.

All this is brought to Hagar. It says God opened her eyes and she saw the well of water, and she went and filled the flask with water and gave the lad drink. Then it says God was with the lad and he grew. So far, you see, things are going well, and for a soul truly born of God all is perfectly secure, but alas, in Hagar's case and in Ishmael's case, all this wonderful grace and consideration on the part of God seems to have been lost. And this is a very solemn word for each of us. We may take the flask and fill it, and drink of it, and yet turn away to the world. As is said in Hebrews, we may taste the good word of God and the powers of the world to come. We are warned here of the necessity of deep-rooted work, of thorough repentance and self-judgment. What you find with Ishmael is that his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt. There is no evidence, you see, of accompanying evidences of salvation in her case. Think of a parent going deliberately into the world to select a wife for her son, or a husband for her daughter. There is no evidence of salvation there. Salvation is not only from judgment to come; it is from this world, and if I link my child on with the world, where is the evidence of salvation in that? And that is exactly what Hagar did. She selected a wife for her son from Egypt. The believer, on the contrary, in Genesis, makes a point of selecting a wife for his child that belonged to the family. Abraham caused his servant to swear on this very point. And so Isaac in regard of Jacob.

You can see that whilst this wonderful system of grace is brought within our reach, and we may taste of it in an outward way, yet we may not be saved

from the world. And this, as I said, is a word for all parents here, that if we are to have our children saved, we must keep them out of the world. But then, what I am occupied with now is not that so much, as that this wonderful system of grace is brought to your very door this evening. God opened Hagar's eyes and she saw the well of water and she went and filled the flask with water and gave the lad drink, and God was with the lad and he grew. You see, the elements of salvation are all present. May God help you young people to see the well, to see the wonderful system of grace that is available. Forgiveness is offered to you, the righteousness of God and the Holy Spirit on the simple principle of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. May God bless the word.

Pages 130 - 533 -- "The Fulness and other Ministry", U.S.A., 1937 - 1944 (Volume 191).

THE FULNESS (1)

Colossians 1:19, 20; Colossians 2:9, 10; Ephesians 3:19

J.T. The idea of fulness attaches especially to christianity as involving the complete shining out of God. There are no reserves. We are to be filled even to all the fulness of God. The passage in Colossians 1 has in mind the greatness of Christ rather than anything accruing to man from the fulness of God. It says, "In him all the fullness ... was pleased to dwell". In chapter 2 it dwells "bodily" in Him so as to come within our range and apprehension, but its setting in chapter 1 is in relation to the greatness of Christ. There was One great enough here in whom all the fulness could dwell. Then in Ephesians, as I said, we are to be filled unto all the fulness of God. In Colossians 2 the fulness is within our range; that is, in Christ bodily, and we as apprehending it are filled full. These are the thoughts that one has entertained, and the Lord, I am assured, will help to open them up for us.

J.D. Does chapter 1 involve the Lord's Person in Deity? It alludes to Him in manhood, but His greatness is in view, and this is one of the items of His greatness.

J.T. Yes, there is One in whom the fulness of Deity could reside. It is the great basis of the whole position, that there is a Man great enough for that.

R.R.T. Is your thought that in relation to this subject of fulness, it was a thought that God began with? In the beginning there was a state of emptiness, contrary to God's desire, but here the substance is brought out, and One is here in whom all the fulness is able to dwell.

J.T. Quite so. There was a state of emptiness, then God brought order out of the emptiness. It was a question of creation, what God is, as Creator, in bringing order out of chaos. The result of the operations in the six days helps to bring out the thought. Genesis 1 gives us the formation and order that God brought out, but the shining out of what was effected is in chapter 2; the idea of fulness is there. You have first the creation, but the development of it shows the idea of fulness, what works out in it. We may consider these chapters in regard to the fulness of the work of God in the saints. Genesis 2 is the shining out, the effulgence; that is what we need to see. We have man created in chapter 1 and in chapter 2 he is seen as formed by Jehovah Elohim, in relation to the history of the heavens and the earth. We have in chapter 2 the history of certain things before they grew, and man taken up in a new way, formed out of the dust of the earth, the earth being affected by the mist; and then the garden planted and the river flowing out of Eden to water it; the animals coming to Adam, and his naming them; and then Eve brought to him, and his naming her. Genesis 2 indicates the fulness of what "God had created in making it". That is what God delighted in, the working out of what He had laid down basically, according to chapter 1. The time for the fulness of Deity to come out was not yet, but All was there. The idea of Deity, in the plural, which is the form used, is that All was there. In the beginning God -- God was there in all that He is. He created the heavens and earth, and something happened, and then He begins again and sets up what we are accustomed to now. Adam was a figure of Him that was to come, but the fulness could not dwell in him, but, as we have seen, there is now a Man great enough for all that God is to reside in.

H.G-h. In that way Colossians 1 is God moving out.

J.T. Yes. He moved out in Genesis 1 as Creator, but not yet to effect His own eternal thoughts, although all was in His mind. Fulness in every respect depended upon the incarnation. Colossians develops the great fact and result of incarnation involving the fulness of God shining out.

R.R.T. Adam was not great enough to give expression to the fulness of God, but here is One who is great enough for the fulness of God to dwell in.

J.T. But how very interested God was in that creature! He is mentioned again in chapter 2, as formed out of the dust of the earth, evidently as affected by the moisture, and God breathed into man and set him over the garden; he named the animals and his wife. So far, he was pleasing to God. It was further history. Genesis 2 is history in the sense of effulgence or shining out, so you get another name taken by God; Jehovah Elohim, the covenant God is brought in there. It is in that connection you get shining out. The name, Jehovah Elohim, might be counted twenty times in chapters 2 and 3, showing that God was working from His own point of view, and He was pleased with what was coming out, as seen in chapter 2.

E.W.M. Is Jehovah Elohim God coming into revelation and covenant relations?

J.T. That is right, not only relations in creation, but covenant relations with men.

F.C.B. Does this expression in Colossians 1 refer to any particular time in the Lord's pathway?

J.T. It refers to Jesus properly as to public testimony, when the voice from heaven announced His sonship and the Spirit came down. What was there was the same as was there before, but we are dealing with testimony and what comes to our

notice. The allusion would be to His testimony. It does not say manhood in this verse, but that the fulness was in the Person. It was in manhood, only that it is viewed as the greatness of the Person who was there.

J.D. Would the end of the previous verse help, "That in all things he might have the pre-eminence". That would involve His manhood.

J.T. Quite so. The passage begins with God as Father having translated us into the kingdom of His Son. That is where the subject begins. The allusion is to manhood, but it is to bring out the greatness of the Person of Christ. Headship of the assembly is brought in in that very setting.

C.S.P. Does not Solomon speak of this, that the heavens were not great enough to contain Jehovah?

J.T. Just so. They were not great enough for Him to reside in, but here is a Man great enough. It is a very wonderful thought that there should be a Man greater than the heavens, the created sphere. "The heaven of heavens cannot contain thee", Solomon said, and yet as Solomon finished his prayer the glory filled the house, as if to point to this very verse, a type of Christ, great enough for the dwelling of all the fulness of Deity.

J.D. He was viewed here as Man, and "in him all the fulness ... was pleased to dwell, and by him to reconcile all things to itself". The word contemplates Christ as Man here, and God's thoughts toward man set forth in Him.

J.T. That is the thought, without going so far in applying it, but it does bring in the primary thought of reconciliation; but the thought is to bring out the greatness of the Person.

H.G-h. Does the expression that He has "translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love" contemplate that there must be material to take this in?

J.T. Just so. That is where we are, and in that kingdom all this truth is opened up as to His Person, the Person into whose kingdom we are translated. Proverbs helps us as regards that statement; the Son of the Father's love is spoken of there anticipatively, and you get the question, "What is his name, and what is his son's name ... ?" Proverbs 30:4. Colossians helps us as to who this Person is.

W.G.H. Does that give character to the mediatorial system?

J.T. It all hinges on who the Person is. The Lord has raised this question. It is not what He is in absolute Deity, but what He is as Man, a divine Person in manhood. How great He is!

J.L.F. The voice in Matthew 3 says, "This is my beloved Son", and in Mark and Luke the word is, "Thou art my beloved Son", calling attention to the greatness of the Person.

J.T. Attention is called to Him. We have 'This' and 'Thou'. "Thou" is the Lord Himself, "this" is for others.

G.C. In His greatness we recognise His supremacy over all, that is as Man.

J.T. This is what these verses bring out in such a striking way. After we are told that we are translated into His kingdom, it goes on to say in verse 14, "In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins; who is image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation". It is all one great statement as to the Person, the personal greatness of Christ in manhood. How great a matter it is that we should be conversant with these things, because we are viewed in the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love. The Lord says to the disciples, "But ye, who do ye say that I am?". That is the question that should come to us at a meeting like this. Who is He?

M.D.F. Do you see the greatness of Him by what He has done?

J.T. Yes, creative power, and He precedes all things, in that He is the "image of the invisible God". All that is intimated too. You can understand if we were at Colosse when this letter came, how spiritual brethren would say, 'These are wonderful things. We did not know Christ was so great'. That is how it ought to come to us, so that we get the greatness into our souls. Professing christianity is saying this and that. But what do you say? It is not what we think, but what we say, about Him.

R.R.T. The emphasis here is on the word, "All the fulness". The Spirit of God would indicate a point had been reached in this blessed Person in whom there were no limits. All the fulness was pleased to dwell.

J.T. I think the allusion would be to all that preceded. There was some little shining out from the outset, but all is the thought now.

J.D. Would that verse in John 1 come in as to the fulness of life, "In him was life, and the life was the light of men"?

J.T. I think so. Of course, it is life in the sense in which we participate in it, but it can only be said of Him.

W.G.H. In Hebrews it says, "Who being the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance". Would that come in?

J.T. I think it would. "The expression of his substance" would allude to the Being of God, the expression of it being fundamental to christianity.

L.E.S. Do you think the fulness would be seen somewhat in the beginning of Joshua 3:7? "This day will I begin to magnify thee in the sight of all Israel"?

J.T. Just so. This comes out before our eyes. That is what a meeting like this is for, that Christ might be magnified in our eyes, because He is not magnified in the world. "Who do ye say that I

am?". What are we saying about the greatness of Christ? The Lord has called attention to this peculiarly for many years back, and the question is, Are we saying these things that are brought out and made clear as to His Person?

W.B. Why do you make a difference between what we say and what we think?

J.T. There are many who think, but thinking is not testimony. It is right to think, of course, "Think on these things"; but thinking is not testimony. So it is with many young christians, they do not come into salvation because they confine themselves to thinking. The word is "confess".

E.W.M. So that Peter gave expression to divine revelation regarding the Person of the Lord.

J.T. Yes, he said it by the Spirit, the principle of revelation, showing that it is a spiritual matter. It is not a mere mental thing with us, because many are christians, and it is what the creed says about Christ that they say. That may be right enough so far, but it is what is known in one's soul, what one has spiritually, that is of value. It is a time of spirituality. You cannot have Christ aside from spirituality. That is what is in mind. The Lord says to Peter, "Flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens".

W.B. I think that is very helpful. So much lies with confession.

J.T. Yes, it is a great matter, because christians regard what is in the creed, what is learned doctrinally, but the forty days that the Lord sojourned here after He arose is to bring out the spiritual side of our position. You cannot have christianity without that. The forty days were as essential as the three and a half years of testimony. They are both essential to christianity. The Lord, could have gone to heaven at once after He arose, but it was a question of bringing out spirituality.

J.D. Would you say just a few words on what you mean by 'spirituality'?

J.T. The Lord is never referred to as being in two places: He was never said to have come through closed doors during His sojourn. The natural mind could take in His movements in the flesh. We read of His hiding Himself from them and going through the midst of them, but it is not spiritual in that sense, it is a physical movement in each case. Whereas in resurrection, as risen, you have His coming in. We are told expressly that the doors were shut; it is to be understood spiritually. The Christian Scientists cannot explain that, it is a spiritual matter. Luke corroborates that in speaking of the Lord going with the two who were on the way to Emmaus, and then while the Lord gave thanks He vanished out of their sight. That is a spiritual matter. No one can explain that physically, but they became spiritual by it; they were not upset by it. They were not perturbed. They got up and put on their clothes and went to Jerusalem without the least suggestion of being perturbed by what occurred. They related to the company how He came in and how He was made known to them in the breaking of bread. That was spiritual. Others said, He had appeared to Simon, which is intelligence, but that He should have vanished whilst He broke bread is what is spiritual. And whilst they were saying these things Jesus Himself stood in their midst and they are upset. Why is that? They were not spiritual.

R.R.T. They had not reached that in the boat when they thought they had seen a spirit. When the Lord came to them on the water they thought they had seen a spirit.

J.T. It was not a spirit, it was a real physical Person. It is the idea of spirituality, that we can take in what is meant by a thing; that we are being introduced into the spiritual world and to learn to

think spiritually. They were affrighted, upset, and thought they had seen a spirit again, just as they thought in the boat. But the Lord says, "A spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having". That is a spiritual thing. He came in through closed doors and yet He is flesh and bones, and He proceeded to allay their fears, and said, "Have ye anything here to eat?". It was for them to prove that it was real humanity that was there.

R.R.T. The thought is that if we are spiritual we would be accustomed to the Lord's movements now in that manner, that we would not be affrighted; but if we are spiritual we would be accustomed to when the Lord comes in.

J.T. That is the thought, because we get on pretty well in the meetings in regard to order and in regard to what we say, as breaking the bread, but when the Lord comes in, that is where we miss things. That is the great defect; the whole of the external thing may be quite acceptable. "Rejoicing and seeing your order" (Colossians 2:5), the apostle says, but when the spiritual side is presented we are upset. Luke would teach us, in his record in chapter 24, that they were saying these things and while they were saying them the Lord appeared; as much as to say, 'I am pleased with what you are saying', but afterwards they were upset. You could not call that a good meeting. It is a confused meeting, and why? because the Lord is there; a very remarkable thing. The Lord had in mind to add to the thing for them, but they are confused.

G.J.B. He showed them His hands and His feet.

J.T. Quite so. That is to show them that it was Himself, but why should the saints be perturbed? It is the Lord. It would look as though there was an unspiritual element, which is often the case. You might have a few spiritual brothers, but they cannot carry things.

J.D. How do you think the Lord comes in today?

J.T. It is a wholly spiritual matter. What happens is in us, not in the room, but what happens is in the saints. It is the state of our souls that enables us to detect it. It is by virtue of the Spirit being here as a medium. If He came in the body He would stand outside. But in coming in spiritually, He is in all of us, so it is a question of what we are.

L.E.S. It suggests confession, of naming the name of the Lord, involving spiritual sensibilities on our part.

J.T. Yes, we might come to this later on. We are slipping away from the great thought we have. It is well that we should have the general position in mind, that the Lord comes in spiritually, but in such wise that it is the Lord, and the spiritual one says, "It is the Lord". That leads to the assembly.

G.C. In thinking of Peter, it is what we say. Peter would say we can only say what we have seen and heard of the Lord, who He was.

J.T. Just so. You get a great deal in the forty days. You never could have christianity without the forty days. You might have blessing, but not christianity. Paul stresses the different appearings of the Lord after He arose. He appeared to Cephas, to the twelve, to five hundred, to James, to all the apostles. If we do not understand that, we do not understand the assembly. We get along pretty well in the breaking of bread, but when the Lord comes in we are not able to say, "It is the Lord".

H.G-h. Then the forty days are for education in view of His appearing.

J.T. The Lord did not go up at once. In the forty days seen of them, He presented Himself living, as if to say, 'You must see Me as I wish you to see Me'. He presented Himself alive after He suffered.

J.A.W. Have you something in your mind as to what answers to the forty days now in spiritual history?

J.T. The forty days denote the great importance of spirituality. We have to come to that, and it is to be treasured now. We do not get forty days again, but the effect of the forty days remains in the treasury. That is, the Holy Spirit has that here and we come into it.

J.F. In what we have detailed for us, we get along pretty well, but when it comes to what is spiritual, we are tested. We show how far along we are.

J.T. I think so, and it comes out in the hymns and the way we speak.

J.D. How far do you think the coming in of the Lord involves a spiritual touch from a brother?

J.T. Usually it is so. It works out in us. The Lord does not come in and stand beside us, He would speak Himself. He is here bodily in the sense of the saints being His body.

R.R.T. John speaks of what we have heard from the beginning. Would that include the forty days?

J.T. I think so, more particularly that. It concerns the word of life, what He was as risen, although it was always there.

R.R.T. John says, "That which was from the beginning". He goes back.

J.T. That is the beginning of Christ really. The resurrection is not the beginning.

Going back to Colossians, it is the greatness of the Person here, to be the residence of Deity in His attributes. But fulness is not only attributes, but what the Deity is in the sense as coming out in Christ. It is no less than God.

J.D. It involves revelation.

E.W.M. Colossians 2:9 is remarkable. It involves not only His divinity but His deity.

J.T. It is a different word. We have divinity in Romans 1 and in Acts 17, but it is a lesser word. It is not such a full word. God is the Deity, but in these two verses in Colossians 1 the Deity is not mentioned, but it is in Colossians 2. All the fulness of the Godhead is there. In chapter 1 it is even stronger, in the sense that who else could it be? What fulness could it be? The fulness could be taken almost as a name or a title. Like the word "greatness" in Hebrews, "Set himself down on the right hand of the greatness on high". What greatness is that? The soul is filled with the infinitude, that all was there in the Person of a Man here. What a marvellous thing it is. Chapter 2 shows that it is within our reach.

G.J.B. All that we have in Christ in all this greatness is to be enjoyed now.

J.T. Just so. In chapter 2, Paul says, "In him dwells all the fulness", that is the present tense, dwells. In chapter 1, "In him all the fulness ... was pleased to dwell"; that is past tense. That is the one great fact that all the fulness was pleased to dwell there.

H.G-h. Is the thought that the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell in that Person, so that God would make His dwelling there?

J.T. I think it is amplified by, "In whom I have found my delight". I think that is the allusion.

J.D. That would be in manhood.

J.T. Yes, manifestly. So here it is the Son we begin with, who has a kingdom into which we are translated. It refers to Christ today. The intent is, what can I say about Him now? If this meeting does not bring more into my soul, then it is of no value. He would say, What are you saying about Me?

L.E.S. Is this in view of the filling out of all things as in 1 Corinthians 15, "that God may be all in all"?

J.T. Quite so. We would be prepared for all, "all things", which we call the eternal state of things, where the Son is subjected and God is all in all; that is, the whole domain is filled. The assembly is said to be filled unto all the fulness. The brain will never be puzzled there. Even my own being I do not understand, and certainly the broad creation is inscrutable to me. What is beyond that? If I am filled in the fulness I am stayed and satisfied. There is no lack or anxiety or uncertainty. The assembly is to be filled unto all the fulness of God. That is the eternal state of things.

J.D. Is it not remarkable that in Colossians 2 it says, "In him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily", and immediately follows the statement that brings before us the philosophy of the world, and Paul goes on to speak of the perfection of the saints in Christ?

J.T. It is filled full. There is no room for anything else in you.

H.G-h. In result of the idea of God coming out in this way, the whole scene will be eventually permeated.

J.D. God will be all in all.

J.T. It is not "all" in an objective sense, but we are to be filled.

W.B. You said that Colossians 1:19 was in the past tense. That seems very remarkable, and I was wondering if that would refer to the time when the Lord was upon the earth?

J.T. I think so.

W.B. Is it what the divine Persons saw in the Lord Jesus, that They were pleased to dwell there?

J.T. That is the way it is put. As history was being made in heaven in the first moment when the

Lord breathed, it was what was seen here that heaven is occupied with. What was there was so pleasing that the fulness was pleased to dwell there. The great fact is that Jesus was here, the Son of the Father's love. When at the Jordan, I think, He was the complete expression of it. The heaven was opened to Him and the voice heard, but the Father's name is not mentioned. Of course, it is to be borne in mind that it is the Father's voice. That is a deduction, but the point is the voice, it is Deity that is speaking, and in "My beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight", we have a Man under His eye. Then the Holy Spirit came down in the form of a dove. The totality of the Deity spiritually was there.

C.S.P. Do I understand that it is first the greatness of God, then the greatness of the incarnation, and the greatness of the eternal position. God all in all? All that is in view here.

J.T. It ought to affect us so that we would be able to speak about these things. A little has been said about them, and it has drawn forth a great deal of opposition, but that does not mean that we should not continue to speak of these things. How great the Person, how great the incarnation!

J.D. Do you think the truth is that the more they are spoken of, the grander they become? The service of God from the saints rises to higher levels.

J.T. We come into the greatness. When Nathan came to David and spoke about Solomon, Jehovah says, 'He is going to be my son', pointing to Christ. "I will be his father, and he shall be my son", 2 Samuel 7:14. David was limited as regards what he was to do; he was not to build the house. His son is to build the house. David entered into the house that then was and sat before the Lord, and he makes a remarkable speech. You are impressed with the number of titles he uses in addressing Jehovah.

What remarkable richness there is in his soul as to God. The Lord would help us in that now, that the Deity be brought before us and within our range in the sense of fulness, that we should be encouraged in our souls, and speak to God not merely in technical terms, but speak to Him about Himself in terms of richness in our own souls.

C.S.P. So that the saints at the present time come into the good of reconciliation and are able to respond to God.

J.T. You see how it proceeds at once to speak, "By him to reconcile all things to itself". And then, "You ... yet now has it reconciled in the body of his flesh" so that you can see what the mind of God is in the fulness coming in.

G.C. Reconciliation puts us in a position with God where He can come in.

R.B. Is there any reflection of the fulness of God to be seen in the assembly now?

J.T. I think we shall see that in our next meeting, as to how it works out in christianity. The fulness of Christ will come in, in the next reading, and how the assembly is His fulness, the fulness of Him who fills all in all, but we should get into our souls now the greatness of the One in whom God was pleased to dwell, not 'is', but "was": when He was alone here, not when He was in heaven. His greatness would be seen in that the residence of the fulness of the Godhead was there.

J.L.F. One of the important things that the Colossians would learn was that they were complete in Him.

J.T. All the fulness being in Him bodily means that it is within our apprehension.

J.L.F. The completeness of the saints is to be the result of that.

J.T. If a man came to you with a philosophical book you would say -- I do not need that, and that is the end of it.

J.D. With this in mind, as to the Son, all the fulness of the Godhead dwelling, how much opens up and becomes increasingly clear to us.

J.T. You get in John's gospel what amplifies all this. John says, "I beheld the Spirit descending". Nobody else says that. It is a plain statement. But John says, "I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God". And as he was about to die, he said, "He must increase, but I must decrease". He is filled full of Christ.

J.L.F. Why is it in John's gospel that John the baptist bears record and in Matthew he is preaching?

J.T. The apostle John brings him in as an ideal witness although he was with Christ only a few months. The Evangelist says, "We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father, full of grace and truth". Then the Baptist bears witness, "This was he of whom I said, He that comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me". That is the way John is brought in in John's gospel. He is the ideal witness, because he says, "He ... is preferred before me". He acknowledges that Christ has taken a place before him.

H.G-h. The fact that he sees the Spirit descending and abiding upon Him shows he understands where the fulness dwells.

J.T. I think it bears out this passage. John's gospel bears it out in that way in the testimony of John the baptist, that he began by saying He was preferred before him, then progressed, and in chapter 3 says that He must increase. He has the grasp of the thing.

E.W.M. It is healthy for a soul by the help of the Spirit to contemplate the glory of the Lord, to contemplate who He is.

J.T. The Lord is calling our attention to that, whether we are profiting by the things that have come out and have been spoken of, or whether they are just in books to be laid on our shelves like a creed.

J.D. What you say as to John is most interesting. He said, "I knew him not", but then he said as to Him, "I beheld the Spirit descending as a dove from heaven, and it abode upon him". It seems to me your path changes after you have seen that; you come to the point where you see the Spirit of God descending upon a sinless One.

J.T. That is the starting point of all in relation to the assembly. What is said in chapter 3 shows that John progressed in the thing. I do not think his disciples progressed so well, because some of them were disputing about purification; that did not mean anything, but John was not engaged with that.

G.C. John says, "Of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace".

J.T. I think that was John the evangelist. It is not easy to tell in these early chapters in John. It is designed to honour John the baptist, that he came near to the evangelist's testimony.

E.McG. Why do you put so much stress on the speaking?

J.T. Because it is testimony. The Lord said to the cleansed leper, "Go, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift which Moses ordained, for a testimony to them", Matthew 8:4. He does not say for a testimony to him, but "to them", as though the whole system would be in mind. God would witness to Christ.

J.L.F. Anybody who does not say anything about Christ is not an ideal witness.

J.D. Being filled to all the fulness of God -- does that in your mind take in the three Persons?

J.T. The Deity must take in all three Persons. Only, when Scripture presents them as in a mediatorial position, it is well to have in our minds how Scripture presents things, so that the apostle says, "To us there is one God", 1 Corinthians 8:6. That abstractly must take in all the Persons, but he fixes it on one Person, the Father.

J.D. Do you think that is here at the end of the apostle's prayer? "To know the love of the Christ", that is one Person in the divine economy. Then, "that ye might be filled even to all the fulness of God". Is it God the Father in that sense?

J.T. The Deity is expressed in that one Person; no one excludes the others, but you are leaving Them as abstractly inscrutable. I cannot grasp these things; my wisdom is to follow the divine way of teaching.

R.R.T. In relation to what we are speaking of in John, it says that the Spirit abode upon Him, but here it is that all the fulness was pleased to dwell in Him. I was wondering if this is a little in advance of John's thought?

J.T. John could only speak of what he saw; that is the testimony. We have to trust to direct statements of Scripture for many things.

F.C.B. When you speak of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, do you have one divine Person in mind?

J.T. That is how the Scripture presents it, "One God, the Father ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ". In approaching God we have access to God by one Spirit. It is all very simple as regards the link between the Three. If we get to thinking first of all of God in the absolute, standing in relation to nothing, and then God in the economy, that is in relation to all creatures, we shall see that it becomes simple. And two of the Persons take mediatorial positions,

taking lowly places in order to serve, that we might come into the apprehension of God as to who He is.

M.D.F. Peter says, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". Is that in relation to God or in relation to man?

J.T. I think Peter's confession to Christ is in relation to man, in relation to testimony. The whole testimony would support that, but the whole testimony taught that such an One as that is come in revelation. It makes it a very spiritual matter.

R.R.T. Would it suggest the greatness of the anointing, that He was the Christ -- the anointed One?

J.T. I do not think the anointing is in view until He was anointed by the Spirit. There is the mingling in the type of the meat offering, the mingling of oil and fine flour, but I do not connect the anointing with Him until He was anointed. We had better go by the Scriptures. When Peter confesses Him that He is the Christ, that means that He is the anointed. The Son of the living God is that He is living.

J.D. As to Jesus in the first thirty years of His life, the testimony does not seem to be connected with that. He was the fine flour mingled with oil.

J.T. So it says He began to be about thirty years of age. He answered to the divine thought as to "the Christ".

L.E.S. Would the inscrutability of Deity lie behind the thought of fulness?

J.T. Yes, it would. We always carry that thought in our minds. Fulness indicates He has come out according to what God has been, pleased to show. He is the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). The fulness is dwelling in the Person here on earth.

E.W.M. I was thinking of the remark you made at the beginning -- Jehovah Elohim, God coming into revelation. It comes in properly in Exodus 3.

It was there before, and in the name apparently, but not the significance of it, "I AM", the ever-present God.

H.G-h. I was going to ask what was in your mind in connection with "that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God", Ephesians 3:19.

J.T. We take all that in so far as we are capacitated. We are not filled with other things. It says in Colossians 2, "Ye are complete in him", that is, towards God, "in him", not 'by Him'. It is our state before God. The idea of Christ begins in Romans. In Colossians it is the completeness of the furnishings of the saints as reflecting the fulness. It is what we are towards God, that is the idea in Colossians, so that we say we do not need that book or that course of instruction. We have it all, and more, in Christ. The point in Colossians is more Christ than God, but in Ephesians it is more God than Christ. The thought is amplified in the fulness of God. It is the same idea, but we are brought into eternal relations in being filled to all the fulness of God. The apostle's mind is so full of the idea that he goes on to say that the glory of God is to be in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages. In that sense the assembly is filled with God, filled unto all the fulness of God.

J.D. One feels the need in these days of the apostle's word, "Be not drunk with wine, in which is debauchery", Ephesians 5:18. That does not mean literally wine, but it is anything that would fill the mind with philosophy or vain deceit. Our mind is to be filled with the Spirit.

J.T. Wine has an intoxicating effect. We are not to be filled with that, but to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

L.E.S. Would Philippians 3 be the setting forth of that?

J.T. I suppose Philippians 3 is a model for us in the way of energy and laying hold of the great things that are presented to us. We see in Philippians the concrete example of one filled full of Christ. There is no need for anything else.

C.S.P. What is the bearing of the dimensions given in Ephesians 3, the breadth, length, depth and height?

J.T. There is a thought in these dimensions which is unusual, not material things. It bears out that they cannot be fully apprehended but by the power of His Spirit in the inner man. It is power in the soul, that you might be strengthened with power by the Spirit in the inner man (Ephesians 3:16). It is that we might take in the four dimensions. Three dimensions is what we have in creation, but when you get four, you get what depends upon Deity, the breadth, length, depth and height. The depth is what we do not understand. We can understand the exaltation of Christ into heaven, because Ephesians 4:10 says, "He ... has also ascended up above all the heavens", and you touch the inscrutable. That is the height, but the depth has to do with what is below us, and that brings out the degradation to which Christ went that He could say, "I am a worm, and no man". Death brings out the power of compression in Christ, that He could go to such a length. It is beyond me to understand that He could say, "I am a worm, and no man".

C.S.P. Do you think the love of Christ expressed that?

J.T. The love of Christ constrains us in that way. How much do we feed on the idea of death? How are we affected as we see an opened grave? No one ever realised the utter degradation that attaches to man as having sinned; no one but a

divine Person could shrink from it in the way that the psalmist speaks as to it in Psalm 22.

H.G-h. It was essential if all things were to be filled.

J.T. It is the expansion from one going so low, becoming so small.

W.G.H. "He that descended is the same who has also ascended", Ephesians 4:10.

J.D. Would the lower parts of the earth mean more than death?

J.T. It is that He went down to the very depths, the lower parts. He went down to the bottoms of the mountains, as Jonah says. No one could grasp or speak of it as Christ did.

C.S.P. All that was necessary that the assembly might be filled unto the fulness of God.

J.T. Just so. The mind that is in Christ Jesus, the mind to go down. How pleasing that was to God. Think of Him in Psalm 16 saying to God, "My goodness extendeth not to thee". I do not understand it, but the Lord said that. There is the power of compression, the power of going down and down, as answering to the will of God.

THE FULNESS (2)

John 1:16; Ephesians 4:13; Ephesians 1:22, 23

J.T. Our subject this morning has been the fulness of God; and now we have the fulness of Christ. These scriptures suffice to show the features of this side of the subject. First, the fulness as available to believers, "For of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace", John 1:16. Then it is the "measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ" (Ephesians 4:13), which is a standard for us at which we are to arrive in the unity of the faith and knowledge. Then finally in Ephesians 1:23, the assembly is said to be Christ's fulness. God "has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all". We may consider the subject in that order; first, the fulness of Christ being available to believers so that we receive of it, and then that the measure of the stature of it is a standard for us to arrive at, and then the place we have in that fulness. That is, the assembly is said to be the fulness of Christ as filling all in all, so that she has a great part in this subject.

G.J.B. Would you say this is finality?

J.T. It is the subject in its finality. The verse in Ephesians 1 shows the setting of the coming world when Christ is to appear as Head over all things to the assembly. It is finality in that sense. The assembly has a great part in it, for it is His body. Evidently the idea of its being His fulness is in the fact of its being His body.

G.J.B. Is this the end of His ways with the assembly?

J.T. It is testimony, I think, running on to the millennial state of things and merging in the eternal state of things. The assembly has a great place with

Christ in the future, as she has in testimony now, and it lies in the fact that she is His body; she has a peculiar place as His body.

J.D. What precedes the first scripture you read is, "full of grace and truth"; then "of his fulness we all have received". Would that be the fulness of grace and truth that was seen in Him, taken note of by believers?

J.T. It seems to be the apostle's words, for he says, "We all have received, and grace upon grace", and then he adds, "for the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ", so that is what is in his mind. It would be, therefore, that feature of fulness that meets our need, grace meeting our need and carrying us through, for there is no limit to it. It is "grace upon grace", and it is spoken of here from the standpoint of experience, for the writer speaks of the experience of others, the reception of grace upon grace.

L.E.S. Would the bearing of the thought of fulness we are now considering be linked up with "when the fulness of the time was come", Galatians 4:4?

J.T. That is another phase of our subject, "the fulness of the time". Time has a fulness which we see a little of, but it enters into what we are saying now. The fulness of time alludes to the introduction of sonship as over against minorship. It is really a lesser thought than what is before us, for we receive sonship. It is not the fulness of Christ, but fulness of time.

J.D. Does the thought of Father and Son in John 1 enter into the fulness of grace and truth? It is said, "We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father".

J.T. I think so. It is an antecedent of this. "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth",

and then "of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace. For the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ".

H.G-h. What has been brought in in relation to this Person is going to remain.

J.T. That is right. The verb is singular, two ideas merging in it; "grace and truth" being one idea, one perfect blend in that Person. So that we should not alienate truth from grace, but grace comes first, because it is a question of man's need. The presence of the Son of God here on earth must of necessity raise the question of need. How is it to be met?

L.E.S. Would Matthew 18:21 enter into this "grace upon grace": "How often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him?"

J.T. That is how it works out in us. There is to be no limit to it. "Grace upon grace".

H.G-h. Grace having to do with our need, it suggests the assurance that we shall be carried through.

J.T. It is a fixed thing; "grace and truth subsists", it says. It is not that grace has ceased in its effect in us, otherwise there would be lapses in our history. It is "grace upon grace" received, so that it becomes one history of drawing upon this inexhaustible reservoir of grace. Then "grace and truth" are one idea, fixed in Christ. So that grace will not be exercised without the experience of truth. "Subsists" is a singular verb, showing that they are not to be separated at all. They may act separately, as they do. Grace is the first thought, but truth is always there. It must come in.

J.L.F. Is that the thought of the word subsists; making it one thing?

J.T. The thought is that the singular verb makes it one idea. Grace may operate by itself, but truth is never to be overlooked. It is always to be in mind.

G.J.B. It is a continuous flow, is it not?

J.T. Yes, according to the need. He puts it here that it is received, so that it is a tangible thing. John has that in mind. Grace is not a theoretical thing, but tangible, and the speaker says, "We have contemplated his glory" and received His grace, and it is "grace upon grace".

J.D. Would the reception of it in our case be connected with what He gives in Ephesians 4, "But to each one of us has been given grace"?

J.T. That is the idea. There, however, it is gift. He is really looking in Ephesians 4 at the idea of gift to the end that we might arrive at the thought of fulness as a standard. We ought to arrive at the thought of fulness as a standard, and then we get some idea of fulness in the saints, how the thing applies to the saints. It is as we see the thing in Christ and arrive at the idea of the fulness of Christ.

G.C. Could we connect it with Psalm 84:7, "They go from strength to strength: each one will appear before God in Zion"?

J.T. That is good. Another potent thought is "from glory to glory". So that you have "grace upon grace", "glory to glory", "strength to strength".

C.S.P. Would these scriptures speak of the fulness of Christ, especially emphasising His manhood?

J.T. I think they do. It is a finite thought, not that we ever forget the infinitude of Christ personally, but when we speak of a standard at which we are to arrive, it must be a finite thought.

M.D.F. So that we are not only taken up in grace but we need grace all the way through.

J.T. It is the history of grace really, and it has different branches, as "Let us approach therefore with boldness to the throne of grace" (Hebrews 4:16), all opening up the subject in detail. John presents the great thought of fulness of Christ, and he has experienced it and others, not once or twice, but

indefinitely. "Grace upon grace", it is a continuous thing; wherever the need is. He is ready to meet it.

J.D. In man's activity there might be the tendency to run grace beyond truth, but your thought is that these two elements enter into the constitution of believers, both are blended.

J.T. You have the grace of the dispensation maintained in your soul. I believe that is included in what they were saying in the meeting at Jerusalem when the Lord came in, "The Lord is indeed risen and has appeared to Simon". Simon would say, 'That is one of the instances that He appeared to me. Why should He appear to me? It is to exalt the idea of grace'. That is what they were saying. There is a great sinner and the Lord appeared to him first. He needed grace, not at that juncture because he was not then denying the Lord, but he needed grace and the Lord made a point that there was a flow of it to him.

J.L.F. What would you say was the difference between "full of grace and truth", and "grace and truth subsists"?

J.T. It really is that it is the prominent thing. The word 'subsists' would mean that it is sustained. All things subsist through Him. He maintains everything, but this is the particular thing that John stresses which you would expect, because he is dealing with christianity, and "grace and truth subsists". It is a fixture. It is a question of Christ being able to maintain them as over against the law given to them by Moses. The law did not subsist in Moses; it did not subsist in any tangible way, but was written on the tablets of stone. But here is a reservoir of grace in one Person, and maintained in one Person.

R.R.T. What we are having is just another aspect of the greatness of Christ. When here He was a

Person great enough for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and now this grace is of His fulness.

J.T. Yes, and He makes the thing available to man. How wonderful is the skill of it, for according to Colossians, the divine fulness is brought within man's range, in Christ bodily. Here we have the detail of it. The first thing mentioned is what meets need, the direst need is met; that is what is in the apostle's mind.

W.G.H. Is this the primary application of the fulness?

J.T. That is right. The application of it, but it is Christ's fulness, not God's fulness. It is the working out in an administrative way of what was there as He was seen baptised in Jordan. He is baptised and the Spirit comes down in acknowledgment from heaven. He is anointed and there is a voice heard saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight". John is giving account of how that applies to need here, to poor sinners. Here he says we have received it, so that it is a tangible, known thing. Surely every christian ought to be able to speak that way of Christ. We were speaking this morning of what we say about Him. This is Paul's side of the matter. John does not record that. He shows that any christian ought to be able to give some account of Christ, and of His fulness as it is applied, how it meets human need; and what a fine gospel text it is.

L.E.S. Paul would have a great impression of it, as in 1 Corinthians 15, where he refers to the Lord, and says, "Last of all ... he appeared to me also".

J.T. You would feel that. 'I was not deserving of it', he would say, 'because I had persecuted the assembly', but he could measure up with Peter, who would say to him, 'Well, Paul, I feel like that; I understand, because I was not deserving of it either.

but the Lord appeared to me also'; they knew that was the idea of grace.

J.F. Is this the exemplification of the Old Testament word, "Loving-kindness and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other", Psalm 85:10.

J.T. Yes, a very good scripture as entering into it.

J.D. Would that passage in Titus 2:11 come in, "For the grace of God which carries with it salvation for all men has appeared, teaching us ...". This grace of God carries with it salvation, and the idea of teaching enters into it here also.

J.T. That is another thing, the teaching of the grace which carries with it salvation for all men. That is a very fine statement. Who carried it? Christ carried it, but grace is personified. It is a wonderful feature of the dispensation. It has appeared and it carries salvation, but then it also teaches. A very important side that we should have the teaching of grace.

C.S.P. Would you say something on the activity of grace.

J.T. What was said in the meeting at Jerusalem when the two from Emmaus arrived, indicates that they had some inkling of how matters stood, that there was to be an administration of grace. Grace is to reign, it teaches us; the position is that "Grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord", Romans 5:21. He is the instrumentality of it. Not "in Christ" there, but through Christ, and I think the administration of it involves the kingdom. So we see how it heads a great system; it is absolute, grace is on the throne.

C.S.P. The psalmist says, "Grace is poured into thy lips", Psalm 45:2.

H.G-h. It is stated here, "For of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace". Is that part of the fulness?

J.T. It is part of the fulness, it is not all. Grace is part of it and stressed as the thing that meets our need. We are sure to speak of it first because christianity, from the standpoint from which we are viewing it, means that there is no reserve with God, that it is a final state of things, the last word, and meets conditions for you, and specially here, so as to culminate in eternal life. That is how it is set out in Romans. We all are to be characteristic christians. No doubt John speaks of himself, and he and others had direct contact with the Lord. They had to do with Him in a way no others had, but they speak of it, as if it is characteristic of christians. I think that we all might learn as we go on, that this is all a practical thing. We are christians; we have to do with christians who know very little of these things; let us convey something of the fulness that there is blended in the order of things we are in; there is an abundance, and we testify to it because we have received.

L.E.S. The administrative side in John 20 is in keeping with it, "Whosoever sins ye remit" comes in first.

J.T. That helps. John is for the last days, whereas Matthew 18:18, binding and loosing, is for the beginning of things. "Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven". John looks towards the last days and has before him the loosing of souls by the Spirit. The Spirit knew many of the Lord's people would be bound up in human organisations in the last days, and that need is to be met in grace at first, not to convict them of sin exactly, but to occupy them with grace first, because there is so much that we have in common with our brethren in these organisations around. It is well to occupy them with the grace side first.

M.D.F. Christianity is the result of grace.

J.T. I think that is what is made clear. He appeared to Simon, and Paul says, It is that grace reigns through righteousness. It is not righteousness reigning, but grace through righteousness. Grace is first.

R.R.T. If that is true, what was so delightful to God in this blessed Person, full of grace and truth, from whom we have received grace, will come out in us delightful to God.

J.T. So that there is evidence of fulness. I think the idea of extension of what was in Christ is well to keep in mind. It does not say, 'In whom I have found all My delight'. The voice did not say all; I think God in heaven left room for the extension of Christ in His people, leaving room for the body.

J.L.F. Is grace reigning through righteousness a moral thought or does it have reference to the millennium or some special time?

J.T. It is the present time. Romans 5 is "through ... Christ" and Romans 6 is "in Christ". Grace is the way you are divinely taken account of, however guilty you may be, however bad you may be. God would say to you, 'I know that you are bad, and you know it too, but there is forgiveness with Me'; of course, the parable in Luke 7 illustrates it beautifully: having nothing to pay he frankly forgave them both gratuitously, knowing the amount of the debt: "Her many sins are forgiven". The Lord did not minimise them. That is a wonderful expression of grace, and the woman knew it. She would say with John, 'Amen'. The sisters can always say that, whenever anything is said you know is true in your own experience, always say, 'Amen'.

J.F. Would you say that grace is expressed in the millennial order of things?

J.T. It is, of course, but it is more particularly now. Romans brings a man in guilty.

L.E.S. Paul says, "But the grace of our Lord surpassingly over-abounded with faith and love, which is in Christ Jesus. Faithful is the word, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. But for this reason mercy was shewn me, that in me, the first, Jesus Christ might display the whole long-suffering, for a delineation of those about to believe on him to life eternal", 1 Timothy 1:14 - 16.

J.T. Yes, there you have one man speaking from experience. He was an insolent, overbearing man, and he can say, 'I am the chief of sinners. Grace has over-abounded toward me'. It is very fine when you get persons speaking experimentally; even if they do not speak in the assembly, they can say 'Amen' to confirm what is being said in your own experience. 'Amen' is the confirmatory word; that is what it is for.

R.R.T. In that sense there is an Amen in Luke 4:22, "All bore witness to him, and wondered at the words of grace which were coming out of his mouth".

J.T. Quite so. "Bore witness to him".

J.D. Coming back to grace reigning, it says in Romans 5:21, "Even as sin has reigned in the power of death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Has that to be experienced in the souls of God's people?

J.T. Every christian ought to be able to say that. It is the effect of grace upon us acting of itself in supreme dominating ways. He could do nothing else. It is the idea of reigning; grace is on the throne.

J.D. So that the apostle could say in Galatians 2:19, "I, through law, have died to law". He had died to law by the application of the law to himself.

J.T. Yes, then grace reigning through righteousness, in the same soul, where death reigned on the

principle of law; there grace is reigning with a view to eternal life. It is the great end in view. I think the history of christianity on earth makes history in heaven. Every effect of grace upon earth affects heaven in a peculiar way, even in bringing about repentance in the soul. One of the most interesting things we can think of is what heaven is thinking about, and is affected by. What occurs down here from the standpoint of grace is the extension of Christ and the flowing out of His fulness. What a thing christianity is, the resources that are there.

Rem. Grace says to me, I know exactly where you are.

J.T. Yes. "Come, see a man, who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?" John 4:29. That woman would say, 'He knows all about me'. Those men knew the kind of woman she had been, but the Lord knew also. He brought light into her soul. What a sense she had of it as having met the Lord Jesus.

R.B. Would you say here is the conscious reception of grace, and there would be the bearing of like fruit?

J.T. That is the effect of it. Then it begins to teach you as has been remarked. Grace teaches us; that is, it regulates us and sets everything in order in our souls, and we know the why and wherefore of things.

R.B. Does it bring responsibility upon the one who has received grace, that he should show it unto others?

J.T. Exactly. That is what the Lord said to the man in Decapolis, "Tell them how great things the Lord has done for thee", Mark 5:19.

R.B. The Lord, in Matthew 18, speaks of one who had been forgiven, but would not forgive another who owed him something. The Lord takes up the

question of how he had been forgiven, saying, "As I also had compassion on thee".

J.T. In Mark 5 we read of the man at Decapolis, who went and told "how great things Jesus had done for him". He did not disobey the Lord; he implied that Jesus was God. God was there. It is Mark's and Luke's way of putting things. Jesus did it, but God did it.

G.C. Would you say reigning in life would be consequent upon grace reigning in you?

J.T. Reigning in life is a great thought, no doubt bearing on the future, the way we are to reign, reigning in life. That gives us the fulness really of what we are speaking of. It is the fulness of the thing, magnificence. We reign in life, not only are we forgiven.

J.F. What is the thought of truth here?

J.T. It is the regulating side. As we were saying about the woman at Sychar, the question begins with the thought of the gift of God. "If thou knewest the gift of God". If there is something to give, there is something to receive. "And who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water". That was grace. She says, "Sir, give me this water". Jesus says to her, "Go, call thy husband, and come here". That was the truth. There rests the whole point of truth, but if she is to come into the thing, the state of her history has to be gone into. The truth is a perfect standard, and I feel there is something of it lacking, so that "he that practises the truth comes to the light, that his works may be manifested that they have been wrought in God", John 3:21. He faces the light, he is not afraid of it.

J.D. What would be the bearing of that verse in Timothy: "That thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God's house, which is the

assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth", 1 Timothy 3:15?

J.T. It carries truth forward into disciplinary matters. The assembly is the pillar and base of the truth. Your behaviour in the house has to come to that, do you not think?

J.D. I was wondering as to distinguishing between grace itself and the mystery of piety. You have drawn attention to that verse, "God has been manifested in flesh" as peculiar to Christ alone. I was wondering if it would not be a necessity to have our minds fixed on the full thing in Christ Himself first.

J.T. Quite so. The assembly is the pillar and base of the truth. It acquired that from Christ. That is a wonderful verse which you quote, "God has been manifested in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit, has appeared to angels, has been preached among the nations, has been believed on in the world, has been received up in glory", 1 Timothy 3:16. What was there was justified in the Spirit. Everything that Christ did was justified in the Spirit, not justified in the minds of the Pharisees or Sadducees, or Pilate or Herod, but justified in the Spirit. That is where it works out. The Spirit is full justification, so that when the Lord was here justification went on. "Seen of angels", as if He had not been seen before by them. It is a question of piety. It is a mystery. They had not seen it before. Now they have seen God, and He has been preached among the nations and believed on in the world. It is all to bring out what has happened, that this thing is established in experience. It is by experience. "Believed on in the world, has been received up in glory". It is established in heaven, established in faith below and justified in testimony by the Spirit here. That enters into the treasury of the assembly, the constitution of the assembly. That it is the pillar and base of the truth, and then all behaviour in it must have that in mind.

T.A. How can piety be applied to God?

J.T. Well, it could be applied to Christ. What is in mind is Christ become a Man. The incarnation is in mind. The manifestation of God is in Christ.

G.J.B. He was heard because of His piety.

J.F. Would it suggest God coming into our circumstances?

J.T. How supremely that was seen in Christ. "I have set Jehovah continually before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved", Psalm 16:8. The Psalms are full of this.

R.R.T. What you say about the woman in John 4 fits in, she wanted to receive something. She is an example of one who received grace and truth. The fulness of grace was there for her; she also received truth and she went away conscious of having received something.

J.T. It was the truth side she presented really, because the point was to show that she was affected. The men of the city would know. She went to the men and this is what she said, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?". They might say, 'We understand something must have happened in that woman, she is different'. She is an illustration of "if Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness", Romans 8:10. She called attention to life made manifest.

W.B. Would you say a little more on the first chapter of John. It says, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we have contemplated his glory". My thought is the glory, "Glory as of an only-begotten with a father, full of grace and truth". Then it says, "For of his fulness we all have received", and in connection with fulness here truth is left out; it says, "grace upon grace". Then the next verse says, "The law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ". I

was thinking it would help if you would say just a little about the glory, and truth with the glory. When His fulness is mentioned, the word is that we have all received grace upon grace. It is grace upon grace; and then subsisting in Christ is grace and truth.

J.T. It is a wonderful section of John's writings. It is an introduction of the subject he has in mind, and is most charming spiritually, that the Word become flesh is contemplated. He is speaking of it from the standpoint of experience. "We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father, full of grace and truth". That is the first thing, then he introduces John. John bears witness and cries, "He it is of whom I said, A man comes after me who takes a place before me, because he was before me". Now the Spirit of God would bring John as a believer before your mind at once, and he is crying about something. What is he crying? About the Person of Christ; he is urgently speaking about the Person of Christ. John brings him in here. He speaks to christians by bringing in John the baptist in this beautiful tribute, "He it is of whom I said, A man comes after me who takes a place before me, because he was before me". What a fine example that is for every christian in speaking about the fulness of Christ. Christ is so great and I am so little. Say it loudly. John was not whispering. We are told what John was saying, not thinking. He is saying it in the cry. He wants everyone to know that although he is a great servant, there is One preferred before him. That will enable me to be a second or a third amongst the brethren. I can be a second among the brethren if I have learned that. I do not think we will be much unless we can take a second place. Not that anyone can say I am to take a first place. Someone is preferred before me, and there was a good reason, "because he was before me". He says it in a loud voice.

Then it goes on to say, "Of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace". It does not mean that fulness does not include grace. There is one wave after another coming into my soul, and finally that grace and truth subsists, meaning that it is a fixed thing with God. God is not going to be diverted from it, no matter what happens in christianity. God will not be diverted until the time that grace is finished.

G.J.B. Is it right to say this is the introduction of the new man?

J.T. The new man is of course a creation. You can never speak of Christ as the new man. Grace is the effect of what Christ is in incarnation, not new creation. The new man is created in truthful righteousness, and holiness. I think those who speak from the standpoint of experience would say that that is the new man in you.

F.C.B. Is "grace upon grace" something additional to what we get in verse 12? "As many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God"? Does this "grace upon grace" go on in addition to that? Would it bring us into the full gospel of sonship as suggested in Christ as the only-begotten with the Father, not forgetting what is unique in Him?

J.T. "We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father" lays the basis of the family for sonship, although John never says we are sons, except once, that is in Revelation 21, and it is put on the ground of overcoming.

John 1:14 is the end of the prelude to the gospel and ought to be read in connection with chapter 20. These first 14 verses are a sort of introduction to the whole book. Believers have the right to take the place of children of God, for they are born not of flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. It is the family, only from the standpoint of children, and John later

says in his epistle, "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God". That is our position down here. It is the thought of the family in testimony here. In verse 15 of John 1 he speaks of Christ in His supremacy and then that "of his fulness we all have received". He was "full of grace and truth", because of the need here. What a guilty sinner needs is found in grace. God says, 'I know all about the need and I have provided against it'. That relieves a man's conscience.

W.B. "Grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ".

J.T. That principle is fixed and God is not diverted from it. It is not simply that it is fixed in an arbitrary way, but it subsists in a Person. It is all according to His own mind. The idea of subsisting here is that the thing is characteristic of Christ, because you cannot have grace and truth in an abstract way. It is an applied thing. The Lord is characteristically that. He is always applying it so.

W.G.H. John presents the thing progressively. It is grace upon grace. It is an advance. In John 9, in the blind man, you get family thoughts and associations introduced. Do they not exemplify the thought?

J.T. Yes, it is constant in the gospel. I suppose Luke furnishes the best illustration of it, how Peter and the apostles one after another came into it. Peter when he was first touched said, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man", but then he fell down at His knees. He knew grace was there.

E.McG. Would Stephen fit in here, that he was full of grace and power. Then he expressed it in what he said before he died?

J.T. Yes; he represents more "from glory to glory". His face shone as an angel's. He was so like Jesus, as he kneeled down and prayed for those who were stoning him. The first is an angelic glory,

the second is a moral glory. It is "from glory to glory". He saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God. He saw the glory and Jesus. He reflects all that down here. He is an excellent illustration of the word, "from glory to glory" -- "We ... are changed into the same image from glory to glory". The first glory does not disappear, but it takes on another and another.

M.D.F. God has left the system of works and now it is a question of grace in contrast to works. It is an active thought.

R.R.T. Is that why it says, "through Jesus Christ". It does not say 'in Him', but 'through Him'. He is the channel.

J.T. Not only the vessel of it, but the channel of the flowing out in the administration of it.

W.B. Why is the law given by Moses brought in at this point?

J.T. To bring out the contrast of the dispensation. The law did not subsist in Moses, but "grace and truth subsists" in Christ. That is an active thought, a stated thing, not a theoretical thing..

J.D. Would that verse in 2 Corinthians 3, which speaks of the ministry of the Spirit subsisting in glory, involve the work of the Spirit in the souls of the saints?

J.T. It subsists in glory; it is a fixed thing, but it is an active thing. The Spirit is active.

J.D. Many of us have thought that grace and truth are abstract.

J.T. Something outside of ourselves rather than the Spirit maintaining these things in our souls.

G.C. It is the activity of grace. Grace is effected in our souls according to our delight in Him. There is the effect of grace and then we begin to praise that Person to others.

J.T. There is the idea of extension. The apostle says that "No one has seen God at any time; the

only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". It is the full thought of God being brought out by the Son in the bosom of the Father.

H.G-h. What is the distinction between grace and truth and what you read in Ephesians as to the faith system?

J.T. That brings us to Ephesians 4. The subject begins really with verse 1 and runs on to verse 16 and it is to show that the assembly was self-edified as a result of the ministry of gifts. They were given "with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ". That is the setting of our passage and what is in mind is our arriving at this thought, "the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ". But it is in the unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God. I think that is what is meant, for the truth of christianity is not preserved in writings or creeds but in the faith of our souls. I think that is what is meant, not simply that we have faith, but I think the faith includes what is held in unity. There is the unity of the Spirit in verse 3 and the unity of the faith in this verse. We are not endeavouring to maintain the unity of the Spirit at the expense of truth. Unity of the faith goes with that.

H.G-h. Would you say that the knowledge of the Son of God is that which gives life and impulse to it all?

J.T. That is the next thing, "the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God". That is another side brought in. The knowledge of the Son of God, I apprehend, here is the knowledge of Him as setting out sonship, laying the basis for sonship.

J.A.T. "The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father". When the disciples said, "Where dwellest thou?", the Lord answered, "Come and see". Where did they come to?

J.T. It is John's way, a spiritual thought. "Come and see". John would have the people of God to prove things for themselves. You might say if you were there and followed the Lord, that He went to a certain street and to a certain house, but that would not be a spiritual thought. "Come and see" is a spiritual thought. It is where He is spiritually. They went with Him and abode with Him that day. They contemplated His glory, it was there to see. That is the idea with John. Come and prove the thing itself.

J.A.T. John says, "The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father". He would invite His disciples to see where He dwelt.

J.T. You have to bear in mind that it is in the bosom of the Father. "The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father", not who was. There are those who would make that His place in Deity before incarnation, but that is not the point. The point is declaration, and refers to His place in manhood. This was written long after Christ went to heaven, but anyway the idea is spiritual. "Come and see" is spiritual. You get a grasp of the Lord's living associations. Luke says that He used to go to the mount of Olives at night. If you wanted to know where He dwelt, you would have to go there. It is a spiritual thing.

W.G.H. We are to arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God. It is the full-grown man, the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ.

J.T. I apprehend it is more Christ as a pattern for the family. It is not the incarnation. "No one knows the Son but the Father". Here it is all that

is known of Him as Man; as the Leader. He is bringing many sons to glory. He has perfected the thought of our salvation. He is on that line, the pattern of the family. We cannot arrive at the inscrutability of His Person.

H.G-h. Is it possible for a person to have all the outline of christianity as a doctrine and not know the Son of God who gives light to all?

J.T. We are to arrive at the knowledge of Him, what He is as with the Father; what Scripture opens up to us.

G.C. I suppose John would give us the way to that, the one who was in the bosom of Jesus?

J.T. You can see the relation between the two thoughts. The bosom of the Father is a receptive thought, and so in John 13 John was in the bosom of Jesus. The word suggests what is receptive, that you draw one to you, but John also leaned on the breast of Jesus. That is another word. We have nothing about the breast in John 1:18. He was in the bosom of the Father. I think the declaration includes the Declared as well as the Declarer. He is part of the Deity. The "Him" is not there in the original. As declared, what we had this morning, really involves the fulness of Deity.

T.A. The first thing that is said in Luke at His birth is, "The holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God". John speaks about His being in the bosom of the Father.

J.T. John does not present the birth of Christ when he says, "The only-begotten Son". He does not present the public side of His position. He presents Him in fulness as acting in the testimony, and when he says, "The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father", he speaks of Him as from God's side, and as the One who made the declaration. The word 'declaration' means to bring out God. He has brought Him out into public view. It is declaration.

It is fulness brought out. Revelation is that you remove a veil and look in. Here in John 1:18 it is declaration, the Son from the divine side. We have no part in it. That is purely the function of Christ viewed on the divine side, and as conscious of love. Ephesians 4 is sonship on our side. The Son of God is the Leader of the family thought, the pattern of the family. We know Him in that way. John in the bosom of Jesus is in the place of the Urim, in the place where he knows things. In John 1:18, it is not the principle of sonship, but the place of love and light.

J.D. What is your apprehension of arriving at the knowledge of the Son of God as in Ephesians 4?

J.T. It is what is there. It is such a thing as that. I believe we get the idea of the treasury, what the apostles reached as christians belongs to the treasury. The Spirit has it, and it is there for me to arrive at.

J.D. I was thinking of Paul's challenge about not coming to Corinth in 2 Corinthians 1:19, 20. He says, "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, he who has been preached by us among you (by me and Silvanus and Timotheus), did not become yea and nay, but yea is in him. For whatever promises of God there are, in him is the yea, and in him the amen, for glory to God by us".

J.T. Paul refers in the previous verses to uprightness and transparency which are to be reflected in the saints when Christ is preached. It is the Person that is presented to man and the preachers are in accord with that. The Son of God has to be apprehended as the Head of the family. He is to be the firstborn among many brethren, and I believe arrival at that knowledge is what is meant here.

J.D. Do you think that is why He asked the man in John 9, "Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God"?

J.T. The time had come for it. The man was ready for all that was to be known about that Person.

W.G.H. It is a matter of experience, a matter of arrival.

J.T. We have Paul using that word in Philippians, in saying that he might arrive at the resurrection. He wanted to arrive at it. It was a known thing, that had to be reached, and this is a known thing. You will want to reach it. It is there to be reached.

H.G-h. In speaking of the knowledge of the Son of God, is it the fulness of Christ?

J.T. It is the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. It is fulness in that sense, that it is what He is towards God, and as the pattern Man, the fulness that is expressive of the kind of man God is pleased with, is delighted with. In John 1 it is what comes into us of the fulness, but this is the other side.

J.D. Has the full grown man every spiritual faculty developed?

J.T. The fullness is in measure of the stature, the use of the word 'measure' shows that it is a finite thing; it is a finite thought. In these scriptures there is what is measurable in us and immeasurable in Christ.

THE FULNESS (3)

Ephesians 1:22, 23; 1 Corinthians 12:12, 13; Colossians 1:18

J.T. The scripture in Ephesians teaches us that the assembly as Christ's body is the fulness of Christ who fills all in all, and that He is Head over all things to it. It suggests the wisdom of looking into the subject of the body in the different epistles in which it is mentioned, for it is a great feature of the truth. It is mentioned in Romans in a very elementary way in chapter 12, in which it is stated that "we, being many, are one body in Christ". It is not the body of Christ in Romans; the truth does not take us that far. It is one body in Christ, our status outside of the world, for "in Christ" implies an out-of-the-world status. Then in 1 Corinthians we have the further thought linked on, that is in chapter 10. Paul says, "we, being many, are one loaf, one body"; then in chapter 12, we have the body mentioned, and that we are baptised by one Spirit into one body, and are made to drink into one Spirit. The chapter enlarges on the subject as the Lord may help us to touch on it. In Colossians the body is brought in in the verses read, as an element of the greatness of Christ, He is Head over it. We have the whole thought there. He is Head of the body, the assembly. All these scriptures are to be understood if we are to see how great a position it has in Ephesians in view of the future. The Lord Jesus is said to be given to be Head over all things to it, and then it is stated that it is His fulness.

C.S.P. Is the thought in Ephesians, given to be Head over all things to the assembly, in contrast to what is put under His feet?

J.T. Quite so, but the assembly, as you might say, has part in the headship. It is the way in which

the Lord expresses Himself. Indeed, it is His fulness. The fulness presented in a very concentrated way in the saints. It is what He is in the saints viewed as His body, that He has that which is directly affected by His headship, and the headship extended universally, in that way, so that the body becomes a medium. It is fulness of Christ towards the universe apparently.

J.D. Would you say a few more words on the setting of the truth of the body in Romans 12. You use the word 'status'.

J.T. It is like all the features of the truth in Romans; it has a delivering effect, a saving effect, especially now when there are so many bodies, so many organisations of men: trade unions, Masons, Oddfellows, and a lot of other less notable organisations of men. It seems to be an element in our makeup naturally that we link on with others; indeed, at Shinar they said, "Let us build ourselves a city and a tower". It was a collective idea. They were all having part in it, and all such organisations are inimical to the truth, particularly those secret ones. I think the allusion in Romans 12 is to bring out the status of the assembly; that is, of the saints viewed as a body. It is not said to be Christ's body, it is simply that as one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office. Thus we, being many, are one body in Christ. I think "in Christ", is to lift us outside the range of everything else. It gives it an out-of-the-world status, and has a delivering effect upon us. It is a degrading thing and unseemly for a christian to belong to any other body; there is only one body in Christ.

J.D. Do you think that it is the character of Christ coming out in the body in Romans 12? It is characteristic, such a body as that, Christ's body.

J.T. It does not go so far as Christ's body, but there are the many persons. As in Rome, that is

how it should be taken up. A christian in Rome when this letter was read would say (some of them might be more or less social, some having different settings in the world), 'Well, I see now that I cannot belong to any worldly affairs. I cannot be a member of any of these things, any of these guilds or whatever they may be called, secret societies or whatever they be'. I do not know that they existed then, but they exist now, and it is a question of the bearing of Scripture at any time. So that a scripture written then, though eighteen hundred years previous to our time has its bearing on us. The Spirit of God wrote the Scriptures having in view the variations of history, so that it is a question of our seeing the bearing of it on our times. Hence, a christian in any secret society or trade union would be uneasy when he heard this letter read in the assembly, as Phoebe brought it to the brethren. No doubt they came together and read it. They had the Bible readings in that way, especially when the apostle came for the first time. What great interest there would be and how everyone would be challenged by what was said.

H.G-h. Would the truth of Romans, being on individual lines, prepare them for the truth of the body later on?

J.T. That is right. The truth of the body works out in relation to the will of God. That is how the initial idea of it stands. Romans 12 says that we "may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God", and "present your bodies a living sacrifice". That is how we prove the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Each of us is to come to that, that we are here for the will of God and to prove that it is good. It is a happy thing to be in, not an irksome thing. It is good and acceptable and perfect. That works out in the body, because when you come to 1 Corinthians it is stated that the

bread which we break is the communion or fellowship of the body of Christ. That body was for the will of God here, the body of Christ, and then Paul goes on to say, that "we, being many, are one loaf, one body; for we all partake of that one loaf". In partaking of the one bread, we are committing ourselves to the will of God so perfectly maintained in Christ's body. "Lo, I come ... to do, O God, thy will", Hebrews 10:7.

We are said also to be "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10), so that we are committed to the idea of the will of God in partaking of the Lord's supper. That is a very important lesson. It comes home to us when we partake of the Lord's supper. That is our profession in the partaking of the Lord's supper; we are committed to the fellowship. In 1 Corinthians 12 we are said to be "Christ's body". That is the order in which it stands, that being amenable to the will of God we are morally equal to the thought of being Christ's body. "The Christ" in 1 Corinthians 12:12, is the body of the saints, viewed as anointed. God committing Himself formally to it as we commit ourselves to His will.

L.E.S. The body would prohibit any other will, would it not?

J.T. That is the idea. We are committed to the will of God in carrying it out, and God says, I will commit Myself to you. I believe that is the order of the truth, even seen in the Lord's own path; where the will of God was everything to Him, and God committed Himself to Him.

M.D.F. We are to keep free from every other fellowship.

J.T. It is consistent to do that. It is a matter of consistency that one holds himself in relation to the will of God as partaking of the Lord's supper. The idea is that we are all partakers of that one bread.

J.D. As to the body and the bread which we break, connecting that with the passage in Hebrews, "a body hast thou prepared me", it was in that body that the will of God was effected, and if we take that bread we are to follow in the steps He took.

J.T. It is worked out in Ephesians 1, that the assembly is in such a place that the Lord is Head over all things to it, not of it. It is not brought in there as part to which He is Head. He is Head to it, and it is evidently because it is His fulness, that it has part in the headship, you might say. A very great and glorious thought relative to us, and the Lord I am sure would help us to grasp it.

J.F. Would you say 'head to it' suggests our apprehension of Him?

J.T. That would underlie it, as a husband is head over the family, so he is head to his wife. That is the principle, that she has part in the headship. In truth she does come under the headship, as Colossians 1:18 would teach us, but Ephesians is a greater thought that she has part in the headship because she is His fulness. The organism is so perfect that He is reflected in His body. Union underlies this. The two are one flesh, one idea in the two. All is in view of headship working out in the universe, and it comes out now in the saints in the assembly. You get what comes out from Christ immediately, the truth of the assembly. The universe does not get His movements directly; they get it through the assembly, His body, which is His fulness.

J.D. Going back to the partaking of the loaf, setting forth the body of Christ, and our communion with it, how in a practical way would that affect the practice of the saints? If for instance, a brother or sister not walking in the truth, in some sect perhaps, dies, would it be right, as brethren breaking the loaf, to attend the funeral services if a sectarian would be in charge?

J.T. It would be confusion; one would compromise the fellowship. Of course, if you are a natural relative of the person, you would show your respects, what is seemly, by visiting the place or house and maybe having prayer with them and the like, whether it might be a Presbyterian or any one. I would be free for myself, and have done so to help them as christians, and to have a little prayer with them, but not with a clergyman in charge of the funeral. That would involve the truth, and we would have to bear that in mind. The Lord said to the man in Luke 9:59, "Follow me. But he said, Lord, allow me to go first and bury my father". The Lord said, "Suffer the dead to bury their own dead". I do not like to make it too strong where they are christians, but suppose it is not a christian. You would have to have some respect for them and you would have a way to show interest, but you could not go beyond that. It is a question of letting the dead bury their dead.

J.D. If, for instance, it was some of the sects, such as open brethren or other independent companies of brethren so-called, if they were in charge of the services, you would not be free to go to the burial service.

J.T. I would be less free to go there than anywhere, because there you have imitation of the truth, which is the worst kind of opposition.

W.G.H. The practical working out of 2 Timothy would have to come into consideration.

J.T. Quite so. That is how we must arrive at all truth today. All collective truth, relative to the assembly, has to be approached now through that avenue. We have to learn how to cease to do evil before we can learn to do well, and that involves the working out of the truth of the body, because it is the will of God initially. The Lord coming into His body said, "Lo, I come ... to do ... thy will",

that is to be continued down here. The Lord personally has gone to heaven, but the will of God must go on here, and Romans teaches us how we come into that. In Romans 6 our very hands and feet are members of Christ as they come under the will of God, and in chapter 12 we have the increased thought of presentation. "Present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your intelligent service. And be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God". That is what everyone desires and it leads up to our being one body in the sense of so many persons of that kind. Not yet called the body of Christ, but one body in Christ, so as to get the status outside of the world.

L.E.S. It is mentioned to elevate our thoughts and minds and help us in regard to our responsible history here; that is the setting in Romans.

J.T. I think so. You feel you can see how it would work in your town in regard to all societies, school clubs, young people's clubs, golfing clubs or may be other sports, countless things that take on this character. I may be linked up; you may say it is harmless, but it is below the status I am given. I am brought into, something called a body that is in Christ, lifting up a christian in Rome above the status of the emperor even, and what goes with this is newness of life, newness of spirit, and that sort of thing. It is to give us a status outside of those things, for it is degrading for a christian to have part in them.

R.R.T. The essential thought in a body is a vessel for the will of God. That is, whether it be in Christ in taking a body, or the assembly viewed as the body here, or our natural body individually, it is a vessel for the will of God.

J.T. That is it exactly. You can see that we can be of no use to God in this world in a disembodied condition. It is a great moral feature in Romans that a believer rescues his body in this way from being linked up with anything here.

R.R.T. So that in Ephesians here it says He is "head over all things to the assembly, which is his body". The Lord in His body was the perfect expression of the will of God, and that fulness is to be expressed in the assembly, which is His body.

J.T. We have the fullest position, the greatest position of the assembly in these verses, but what is more needed by us here this morning is to get the initial idea so that the thing is not a theory. I am a part of this, and to be that I must learn to yield my members unto God. "If Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin". It has ceased to respond to the workings of sin. It is dead in that relation. That is what Romans 8 says, and I believe the best illustration of that is the woman in John 4. The result is seen in her body; there was what she had been, and how she was affected publicly. She leaves her water pot. She brought that to carry water home, but she left it and went away by herself. The teaching is that she understood what the Lord said as to her body, that it would be a vessel of living water and she goes to the men of the city and says, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?" Anybody could say that this woman had another Man in her mind, not men, not five husbands or six, but one Man, and that leads to 2 Corinthians 11:2, "for I have espoused you unto one man". She is really affected by that one Man so that her body is immune from the influence of the men of the city. She influences them, that is, Christ is in her. She is the best illustration of one who fits into the body. She has learned

the truth as to her body, that it is to be a member of Christ.

T.A. Where does risen with Christ come in?

J.T. That comes in Colossians where we reach the thought of headship in Christ; as understanding that He is the source of everything, the whole body draws upon Him. It leads up to that, but the verse read from Colossians is to bring out the whole idea of the assembly as under Christ's headship. He is Head of it, not to it. It is governed by His wisdom directly, but in Ephesians He is Head to it, so that the headship works out in it towards the universe.

A.D.S. In connection with Christ being Head to the assembly, is it the thought that impulse flows from the head of the body in relation to the will of God?

J.T. Yes, that is Ephesians. I think it is the thought that it flows out indirectly to the universe. It is direct in regard to the assembly. Headship is direct, in fact it is one thought, "The two shall be one flesh". I believe "to the assembly" works out so that the operating is in unity, the assembly being the fulness of Christ.

J.L.F. Do you see it worked out in the heavenly city?

J.T. That is the counterpart of what we are speaking of. It is John's way of putting it. The heavenly city is really the assembly, only viewed as a city, but it has the glory of God and it governs or influences the universe, and we can understand how that would flow out of Christ's headship. John does not treat of the body, but it is a collateral thought.

J.D. Do you think there is the thought of Adam and Eve in this verse in Ephesians, "Head over all things", "The two shall be one flesh"? Head of all things to the assembly places it alongside of Christ.

J.T. That is the thought. She is the counterpart, and the added thought of one flesh, it really means

the word 'union'. We have the thought in the New Testament, and the thought enters into these two verses, headship flows out of one idea, but through the assembly, so it comes to the universe indirectly. Not simply the assembly as under headship, but the medium of headship, as if a husband is absent and the wife expresses his feelings towards the children. The children are never of the same status as the wife in the household.

J.D. Do you think "over all things" would enforce the great thought as to Christ's headship?

J.T. That is the way the thing stands. What has been alluded to in Revelation helps. You see how the city coming down works out. How marvellous it is!

H.G-h. Then you view headship in the light of Ephesians, as the assembly really, the administrative body?

J.T. That is how it works out. The word 'administration' would fit better as applied to the city than as applied to the body, for headship is the working out of the mind of the head, not simply enacting something, but the working it out so that the whole universe comes under the direction of Christ, but the operation is through the assembly. How important that young christians should see how we come into this, beginning with the idea of the will of God.

You have the assembly which is His body. What is in mind here is the body, because it is a question of union. The word 'assembly' really stands in another setting, but it is to identify the one thing viewed as the body. The word 'assembly' means persons called out, and intelligent persons, but the word 'body' implies an organism. It is extremely fine and delicate. Our own bodies are illustrations of it. How wonderful that your members respond! that is the idea. Every saint is contemplated as so free from

extraneous matter, his own will, that he moves under the impulse of Christ. It is a marvellous thing. It is a figure, it really refers to the number of saints formed after Christ, innumerable, as we say, but all under His headship. How marvellous! Now it works out, for brethren in Australia, England or New Zealand are all actuated by the same impulse, and I believe God is helping us through the wonderful things that have been disclosed in His creation. By what we call radio power -- these things are inscrutable -- you can speak to a brother ten thousand miles away. That is not man's invention; that is God's. There may be wonderful things that no one knows of but God Himself. But I mean these things show how real the thing is. They are practical evidence of what is possible, and much more so of an actual living organism where things are so tender and delicate and sensitive that the least movement of Christ is felt and reflected in the spiritual brethren all over the world.

J.D. Would it be right to look here at the body as the rib taken from Adam?

J.T. That is Ephesian truth, the actual type in Genesis 2. The animals were brought to Adam and he named them. God delighted in what this creature of His could do. What delight God had in that, as He saw Adam naming each creature! He did not alter the names in one instance. I think it is to bring out what a wonderful being Adam was. But then it says there was no one his like, his counterpart, not in all these creatures. Adam was alone and God says, "It is not good ... I will make him a helpmate, his like", his counterpart, and hence the deep sleep when God took out of him a rib and builded a woman. It is the first use of the word 'build'. He brought her to man, who had a wonderful instinct of what God was doing, and so he says, "This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall

be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man". That is wonderful intelligence, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh". That is Ephesians.

G.C. You made a distinction between the anointing in Corinthians and Romans.

J.T. The anointing is not mentioned in Romans. It is as I understand to bring out the status of the assembly or the saints viewed, not under headship but under the common word 'body'. That word applies to other bodies. This body is taken out from the midst of them and set up in Christ, that is Romans. In Corinthians the idea comes in in connection with the bread, that each of us commits himself in partaking of the bread, and professes to be a member of Christ in that way. So that we are all partakers of one bread. The term "the Christ" is applied in 1 Corinthians 12:12, in a peculiar way. It really alludes to the body, the saints. We are anointed collectively.

G.C. It is an important point to see.

J.T. It is a question of God committing Himself to us. We take the place of Christ down here, and carry out the will of God. The anointing means that God commits Himself in that public way. I believe, in the Lord in Luke, the idea of the will of God is there, and God says, "In thee I have found my delight". The Lord could say, "Yea, thy law is within my heart". And God anointed Him. God commits Himself to Him. He is a divine Person, but nevertheless the word 'found' alludes to that Person.

R.R.T. Viewing man in Genesis 2, as you were saying, as head over all things to Eve, is that the thought in Ephesians, "Head over all things to the assembly, which is his body". Christ as Head in that way makes available His fulness through the body, for the will of God?

J.T. Well, I think that is the way it works out. There are other allusions to the body in this epistle. It is said "There is one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling", (Ephesians 4:4), and that is to govern us in relation to the unity of the spirit, that we should be universal in our outlook. Then it says that the gifts, in the same chapter, are for the edifying of the body of Christ. That would mean, that gift, ministry in the power of the Spirit from an ascended Christ, is to edify or to build up the saints viewed as the body. That is what gift does. It is the effect of ministry, but it runs on down to verse 16 where we are told that the body edifies itself. That is, you gradually come on to the thought of independency in the organism. Independency of all else, for it is self-edifying in love. You can see how that leads up to the great thought in chapter 1, so that the Lord can take that on and use it, it being so sensitive that it builds itself up. It is in itself a means of edification, a great thought for us in our local gatherings and meetings for ministry, as we call them, and all our relations with one another, that we will be self-edified in love. You can see how it reaches on to the Eve condition, where she is viewed as a perfect creature, being taken out of Ish, being formed and built by God Himself. The word 'build' corresponds to the word 'edify' in this epistle. It is the same idea. She is brought to the point where she is brought to Christ and united to Him. The two shall be one flesh.

J.L.F. Is the thought in Corinthians the same as Romans 12, there is one body?

J.T. It goes further. We being many are one body in Christ, is what is said in Romans 12. In Corinthians it is said we are all baptised in the power of one Spirit into one body. That certainly goes beyond.

J.L.F. I was thinking of the word "there is one body and one Spirit". Does that go back and include the thought in Romans, on the same level as one body in Christ?

J.T. I think Corinthians would be more in mind, for they are all lifted up to a higher level in Ephesians. You would get the scope of the truth in Corinthians and Romans. The more you look at Ephesians the more you feel yourself in the third heaven, as it were. You are placed in a certain place with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies; you are taken out of this world altogether.

J.D. Ephesians 4:16 speaks of the headship of Christ, "From whom the whole body, fitted together, and connected by every joint of supply, according to the working in its measure of each one part, works for itself the increase of the body to its self-building up in love". That the saints come to the knowledge of the Head is absolutely essential to the working out of the last part of this verse?

J.T. The scripture is leading up to verse 16 which we had yesterday, the fulness of Christ. We arrive at that, and then, holding the truth in love, we may grow up to Him in all things, who is the Head, the Christ, and then "from whom"; He is the source of supply. But it all develops, and there is the working out of the thought, so that it refers to the power of self-edifying. There is power of edification even if you do not have special gift. It is the organism in itself; it is not Christ; it is edification.

J.D. It is fitted together. Would you say that underneath all this is the work of the Spirit in forming the saints together in this workable way? It really has a local application.

J.T. It has. It begins in Romans in the recognition of the law of God, but when you come to the organism you get very fine thoughts, so that you have here, for instance, the working in its measure

of each one part. That is a very fine thought, the idea of measure as fitting into the body. I must function and you must function according to measure. Everything in the human body must be on that principle, every member must function according to its setting and what it is called upon to do, according to the working in its measure of every other part. The assembly works for itself the increase of the body to its self-building up in love, every member being in his place, not simply in a public way as in Romans, but in the organism. The body in Romans hardly goes so far, although it is a figure of the human body, but the organism is stressed in Corinthians and Ephesians because of its fine sensitiveness in the Spirit, and the members in self-judgment denying and eliminating all the action of will, so that a brother may be sitting beside me and as I am speaking about the Lord, I become conscious that he has something. I become conscious it is the organism, and I sit down and then he gets up. It is a wonderful suggestion of the elimination of our own wills, all selfish feelings and ambition. It is loving each other better than ourselves. You let another have part in it.

L.E.S. Would you say that it is an organic unit? The Spirit suggests light within, but under the impulse of headship.

J.T. It is an organic unit, it is like the word 'union'. He shall be united to his wife and the twain shall be one flesh. The greatest possible conception in the universe viewed spiritually or physically is the relation of Christ to the assembly.

H.G-h. Is that effected here by what is administered by the gifts? Here is the working out of it.

J.T. Ephesians 4 shows how it works out, by ministry or gifts, and it is self-edifying. The saints are so affected by the ministry, that they eliminate all selfishness, pride and ambition, and think of each

other in love, and the whole sensitiveness of the organism is free to operate.

J.D. Would you distinguish at this point between union and sonship?

J.T. Yes, but there is little time for that. I was going to say our subject this afternoon should be the fulness of time, which begins with sonship, and it will afford us an opportunity of taking that up, but I might say here that sonship is an individual and a family thought. It is not what enters into the organism at all. The idea of the organism is worked out from the will of God. It is the elimination through ministry and the power of the Spirit of all fleshly feelings and ambitions, all that emanates from the flesh, so that the believer is entirely secured for the Lord, and he has a place in the organism.

R.B. Would you make a distinction between the assembly and the body? The two words are constantly connected, and I wondered if there is any distinction in the value of the two words.

J.T. The word 'assembly' is used to designate the company as known here. It is linked with the word 'house', "that thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God's house, which is the assembly of the living God", 1 Timothy 3:15. Then we have here "that He is given to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body". The assembly is the word used in Matthew. He says, "my assembly". It is viewed as something the Lord has in the way of intelligence and ability for warfare, that hades' gates shall not prevail against. In Corinthians it is the public thought, generally God's assembly or Christ's assembly, or the assembly. It is a wonderful thing that God has here for administrative purposes. There are other things too, but regarded as the body of Christ, it is more an inner thought. It is a sort of secret thought. It is a mystery, really, so that there are secret workings

that the man after the flesh is utterly unable to take account of. In His people the Lord has a vessel in which His very thoughts and feelings are expressed and reflected, as you might say, organically. The saints express what Christ is. He is expressed in them, as His fulness here, and in the future too, so that the whole universe learns Christ, I believe, through the assembly viewed as His body.

L.E.S. Would you say that the practical effect of Ephesians 4 is seen on the seashore in Acts 20 where they fell upon Paul's neck and wept sore when he departed?

J.T. That would be quite so, and in other similar instances. It begins practically in one's experience as to how he takes account of the brethren that are nearest to him. That works out as to how you take account of the brethren as we partake of the Lord's supper. Where there is intelligence, but without love, these truths cannot be realised. It would refer to fine sensibilities and developed spirituality.

W.G.H. Would you connect the thought of display with the thought of the body?

J.T. Yes, in the organic sense, the Lord as expressed in His members. Ephesians is in mind, not only what you are but what you say.

W.G.H. In Corinthians would you get the thought of testimony as presented in wilderness conditions?

J.T. That is the idea of anointing; it is our present position here below, I think: it is Christ too in relation to the testimony here. I do not think the idea of anointing goes into eternity. You get it in connection with the tabernacle, but not the temple. The tabernacle was anointed, but not the temple. I think it means that it is not a question of God dignifying us in eternity, but what we are, and that is the relationship of sons, what the saints are personally, the dignity that attaches to them. They are in relation to God as sons.

J.D. The idea of the body in that sense ceases with the end of the thousand years, and the thought of sonship goes on into eternity.

J.T. The family thought will prevail. I would not like to say that the thought of the body will cease. The idea of the anointing attaches to us as down here, and will go on into the millennium. Wherever testimony is in mind you get the anointing.

J.L.F. Would you say whatever may come out in the assembly publicly, the secret behind it all is the body?

J.T. Quite so. The organism is the centre; there is that working which is hidden for the reason that the assembly is Christ's body. I would not think the nations or even Israel will have the same view of Christ. There will be the holiest and the holy place. Then we have an immediate relation, in our union with Christ. No other body has that, no other family of God has that status.

J.A.T. How do you connect the body with the assembly?

J.T. It is just another word used to designate the same thing, only it conveys a different thought. The idea of the assembly is very largely order and administration here, whereas the body is another view implying organism. It applies to the same persons, but implying the spiritual refinement and peculiar setting that we have as united to Christ.

J.A.T. The house was provisional and the assembly eternal.

J.T. That is true. The house is another phase of it. It is a provisional thought down here because it extends back to Jacob. But we have "my Father's house" in John 14:2 which is another thought altogether and covers all the families including the assembly.

W.B. Would you say a few words on the parts of the body that Scripture brings before us, like the head, the heart, the bowels, and the feet, just so

that we might understand in reading the Scriptures, like "bowels of mercies", for instance.

J.T. These are called automatic organs, alluding peculiarly to the saints viewed as the body. That they work automatically, means that the Holy Spirit produces these different feelings and affections and sympathies without the head. There are things happening constantly with us without the action of the head, but the head and brain must be brought in in speaking. But things are occurring all the time which are automatic.

L.E.S. The introduction to Corinthians and Ephesians is very interesting. One is addressed to the assembly of God, and would be more on the lines of public order; the other to the saints and faithful in Christ Jesus.

J.T. So you can see it is the saints themselves personally that are in mind. Is that the thought? This thought that has been suggested about sonship ought to come up in our afternoon reading. It bears on what we are saying, but it comes in in connection with the fulness of time, a very interesting thought, and sonship stands related to that, so that if the brethren are satisfied with what we have had this morning, we could resume from Galatians 4.

R.R.T. Is it digressing too much to ask you to say a word as to what it means by growing up to Him in all things, which is the Head, even the Christ (Ephesians 4:15)? It comes in in connection with this passage in Ephesians, in the increase of the body to its self-building up in love. Is that the way it works out, we grow up to Him?

J.T. That is what is in view in the chapter. You can see how union becomes a practical thing in the saints. In our intercourse with one another, growing up together in relation to the great idea of Christ being Head to us. How we gradually fit into the idea of the organism.

R.R.T. That seems a most precious thought, the increase of the body. That is linked up with growing up to Him who is the Head. It is a living thing, the body; there is the self-building up in love; it is self-increase in that way.

J.T. You can see the effort of the devil which the apostle is aiming at here, the systematised error, the terrible influences Satan would work, so as to counteract the influences of this wonderful organism in testimony here.

R.R.T. It is a wonderful thing to view this organism, and the power in itself to increase and edify itself in answer to the thoughts of God.

L.E.S. What a mighty testimony to the triumph of God is the body in Ephesians as over against the efforts of the seven sons of Sceva. I was thinking of the sense Paul had of the power of Satan, and how he brings in the highest character of his ministry, that which in itself would be a witness to the power of God to overthrow Satan's efforts.

J.T. We see in that instance how God can come in for us in dealing with systematised error and break up the combination; combined evil is the most potent evil. In Matthew it speaks of the assembly. We have more about twos in that gospel than in any other. It is because the assembly is an organism. It is systematised. The Lord says, I will build my assembly, and Satan's effort is to counteract it by systematised error. I suppose Rome is the greatest illustration of systematised error, the antiquities and ramifications exceed those of any other system that ever existed in the world. We do not perhaps see it, but it is working. The organism, the saints held together, growing up in love and holding the Head, is evidence of the full victory over all that, and the saints will be preserved. Without love there is no possibility of anything being preserved.

E.McG. Is there any difference between that and "For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works", Ephesians 2:10?

J.T. That is another view. All these things work together; they are collateral lines. Workmanship of God, the building of God and all these things working towards the same end, so that God is going to have a perfect vessel. He has it now in principle, but presently every member will be there perfected. It will be complete and the universe will see what Christ is as reflected in the saints, His body.

G.C. The Lord speaks of ascending up on high that He might give gifts to the assembly. Is that an additional thought?

J.T. That is in this chapter. We speak of the members of the body, and the body of Christ, and the gifts, but the gifts seem to be an additional thought. The effect is the perfecting of the saints until we all arrive at the unity of the faith. How do we apply it? The measure of the stature of the fulness, and the body drawing from the Head, edifying itself in love, so that the gifts are not in view when the saints are functioning together in love. You may feel a brother is a gifted man, but he is a member. It is a great thing for us to know the gift and distinguish him as part of this wonderful organisation.

G.C. The Lord has entrusted the assembly with gifts to this end, and it seems to involve responsibility upon the whole as to how we treasure what the Lord has given.

J.T. It is a sort of endowment. The Lord will hold us accountable for what they have been to us. In Colossians Christ is Head of the body. Verse 18 of chapter 1 is to bring out the greatness of Christ. He is Head of the body, the assembly, but as to the working of it, we have to go to chapter 2, where we have the reference to "holding fast the head". It

enables us to shut out philosophy and ceremonialism, legality and all that. It is really on lower ground, more limited ground than Ephesians, but it is on the same line, holding the Head from which the body draws. In Colossians 2:18, 19, it says "Let no one fraudulently deprive you of your prize, doing his own will in humility and worship of angels, entering into things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh, and not holding fast the head, from whom all the body, ministered to and united together by the joints and bands, increases with the increase of God".

J.L.F. It does not go so far as self-edifying. It is just a statement as to increase as the Head is held and ceremonialism is shut out.

H.G-h. He should have the first place in everything. I was wondering if that would lead on to what we have been speaking of in Ephesians.

J.T. I think it does. Colossians is certainly leading on to Ephesians. Colosse was a remarkable assembly and one of those in Asia. It was not included in the seven assemblies in Revelation; it was an additional assembly, but intimately linked up with Laodicea. It was a remarkable assembly, and yet in danger of letting in philosophy and ceremonialism, and hence chapter 2 is to check that tendency. We do not get that in Ephesians. The increase of God would be the idea of divine fulness. That kind of increase could be seen in it and promoting it in the saints in their holding the Head so that God is brought into it. We must come back to God in everything. God is the great ultimate of all things. It is in all the epistles.

C.S.P. In Ephesians it is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Everything culminates in God, and the apostle prays to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and ends with the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.

THE FULNESS (4)

Galatians 4:4 - 7; Ephesians 1:9, 10; Romans 11:12, 25

J.T. Our first consideration will be in Galatians and Ephesians, the idea of fulness of time; then in Romans the fulness of Israel and the fulness of the nations, all these references being inclusive of the dispensational side of the truth.

The passage in Galatians says, "when the fulness of the time was come". We have in the earlier verses the idea of the period fixed by the father. That is an allusion to what any father may order in regard to his children, "As long as the heir is a child, he differs nothing from a bondman, though he be lord of all; but he is under guardians and stewards until the period fixed by the father. So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the principles of the world; but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son". That alludes to the time fixed by God dispensationally for the introduction of sonship, the minor period, the period of tutorship, having continued up to Christ. The fulness of time involved not only so many years, but also certain developments in God's ways educationally. In that period the children were in bondage and were under worldly principles, not worldly principles in the sense in which we ordinarily speak, evil principles, but principles that fitted in with this world, that were recognisable by the natural man as he was, by the nations, but now, the fulness of the time having come, we have other principles. We have been released from that bondage through redemption, and sonship is entered into as something received: "that we might receive sonship".

J.D. With reference to what you have spoken of as educational, do you think the Spirit of God in Jude speaking of "Enoch, the seventh from Adam" would introduce the thought of the periods of the

servants in whom the mind of God has been set forth before?

J.T. That is right. From the time that sin came in, God began on that principle, working out things in periods, so the seventh from Adam would suggest a principle, seven being the working out of a thing spiritually. What began in Adam is worked out spiritually in Enoch; that is, he pleased God. Genesis 5 is what we might call the life line, but chapter 4 is man's will in Cain; chapter 5 is recovery from that in Seth, so that the line is through Adam, Seth and so on. In Enoch we have the seventh. The divine thought is worked out in him in that he walked with God, and was not, for God took him, and before He took him Enoch had the testimony that he pleased God. That is to say, in one man anyway, there is evidence of what God is doing.

J.D. In connection with that, in Hebrews it says, "Enoch was translated that he should not see death". Do you think in the ways of God, it would permit us to look for men who should not see death? They are brought up to that point.

J.T. Yes, I think it foreshadows christianity. Cain is like the Jew. Those of us who move about the world see it as a distinctive murk of Cain on the Jew, and chapter 4 shows that it comes back to confession of having slain a man, even a young man to his hurt, but over against that we have in chapter 5 the re-establishment of the divine thought in Christ risen, typified in Seth. Eve says, Jehovah has given me one instead of Abel whom Cain slew. It is a distinct understanding of what the Jew did to Christ. Seth is Christ as the man appointed. That is the meaning of his name, and he would be Christ as He is now, and then we have the thought introduced of what man is. We have this word brought in, I think for the first time, in the name given to Seth's son, Enosh, a dying creature. That is, death has passed

upon all men. He was born to die. That is the acknowledgment evidently of faith. Then men began to call on the name of Jehovah; then chapter 5 brings out a new standard, the history of Adam is through Seth and they lived long, but they all died. But there is one who does not; although death is so pronounced, one man is immune and does not see it; he is translated because he pleased God. I think it foreshadows the present time, that no person's death is so stressed as the spiritual man's. I suppose death was stressed in no man outside of Christ, so much as in Paul. He stresses it as in himself, and I believe that is what is going on, what God is doing in enabling men, the saints, to rightly gauge death and have the sentence of it in themselves. Paul says, "We ourselves had the sentence of death in ourselves", and "I am crucified with Christ", which is the strongest thought of death. He accepted it himself. "But in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me", Galatians 2:20. I believe that is Genesis 5, and is expressed in Enoch the seventh, full spiritual development in the saints, so that we have the idea there in the spiritual thought of seven. Then we have Noah inaugurating a new world here through the flood. Then we have Abraham. Here the line begins. So that there are fourteen generations from Abraham to David, and from David to the carrying away of Babylon is fourteen generations, and from the carrying away of Babylon to Christ, fourteen generations, and there is a working out of this in the periods, and it is on those lines we may reach an understanding as to what the fulness of times means; that is, when Christ is brought in. "God sent forth his Son, come of woman, come under law, that he might redeem those under law, that we might receive sonship".

M.D.F. There is a great change from previous dispensations to the present when God is coming out in the fulness of His love.

J.T. Sonship is a thing to be received; "that we might receive sonship". It is a great principle brought in in Christ in the fulness of times. You will notice how much is to be received. Paul speaks in the Scriptures about what is received. One could cite many instances of that, but this is one of the most interesting, that we might receive the thing.

W.B. In Acts 1 it is said, "Lord, is it at this time that thou restorest the kingdom to Israel?" and the Lord says, "It is not yours to know times or seasons, which the Father has placed in his own authority". I find it difficult to understand that.

J.T. It is important to understand it. The Lord says, it is not for you to know times or seasons; that is, what should follow prophetically. The Lord is not alluding to what we are speaking of now, the fulness of time, the full result of the past dispensation, in alluding to that, for this is within the range of believers' knowledge. It is not historical. In Galatians as was said, it is historical. The fulness of time had come and God has sent forth His Son that we might receive sonship. That is a historical fact, that those living in Paul's time, believers, might receive the thing that was there. It is there, that we might receive sonship. Any believer could take that in. It is a matter of light and "because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father". That is the consciousness of it. What the Lord alluded to there, as in Thessalonians, in saying that we do not know the times or seasons, shows clearly that it is not for anyone to prophesy as to when the Lord may come, or what may happen in the world. Men have gone the length of asserting the Lord will come at a certain date and have prepared for it. It is all futile

because the Lord Himself said expressly that that day no one knows, not even Himself. One of the most remarkable things, that the Son did not know. He says not, I do not know, but the Son does not know. The Father has reserved that. Our period is one of faith and hope that He will come, but when no one can say.

W.G.H. The fulness here in Galatians refers to time. The Son coming in would be the climax of that.

J.T. That is right. The time of minority was when the people of God were in the nursery, as it were, but now they are brought, so to speak, into fulness of liberty in the house. That is the idea. Still we have in 1 Corinthians "the ends of the ages", the dispensations; they culminate in the assembly. Paul says, "Upon whom the ends of the ages are come". Everything culminates in the assembly, all is worked out there, because it is so furnished and fitted with intelligence and wisdom in the Spirit that everything is intelligible in the assembly.

J.D. Do you think that would be involved in the mystery in Colossians 2, "in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge"? Would that take in the ways and thoughts of God, all gathered up and placed in the assembly?

J.T. I think so. Matthew speaks of one "who brings out of his treasure things new and old", Matthew 13:52. All these are in the mystery.

H.G-h. You are suggesting that all hinges on the assembly getting her place.

J.T. It is where it is owned, and Christ has His place. We have the solution of things and everything is clear.

A.D.S. In Galatians it says the fulness of the time, but in Ephesians it says the fulness of times.

J.T. I think Galatians had more in view the actual Jewish economy in the idea of time, the

period fixed of the father. Pending the time fixed by the father the children were in bondage, the allusion being to what was set up at Sinai, but Ephesians would contemplate all he is speaking of, the time of administration, heading up all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth. It is the millennium here in mind. God had determined this in His counsels and His will, that everything should be headed up in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth, and that would be the fulness of times. The millennium is the fulness of times publicly in that sense. Christianity comes in at the fulness of time alluded to in Galatians 4.

J.D. Would it be right to say that we are in the period of sonship?

J.T. Yes, we are, that is exactly so. The two times are distinct. In Galatians, I believe, it is christianity following the period before when the children were in the nursery; this was from Sinai and on, but Ephesians contemplates times, which I believe began with Adam, foreshadowing different things as regards heading up all things, the administrative side. The millennium is great, you might call it the seventh day of time. There can be no doubt that the number of years from Adam to the millennium is generally predicated in the Authorised Version. The Septuagint is different. The period, I believe, is 6,000 years, but that is not important to think of. It is a question of what is in the mind of God in these times. He has been foreshadowing in everything He has done the climax of all things being headed up in a Man. It is called the mystery of His will. It is one of the mysteries of the Scriptures.

J.D. In Ephesians 1 it is said that God has "put all things under his feet", as if He was over the system, but it is also said before, that God's purpose is to "head up all things in the Christ".

J.T. 'All things being headed up in Christ' is positional, but I believe involves more than that. Everything is fixed there, but not static, but operative, so that there will be actual administration in the position. The book of Revelation opens up a lot in regard to this.

W.G.H. Here the apostle is seeking to get things out of the Jewish setting; receiving sonship belongs to the assembly.

J.T. That is right, the previous chapter says, "For ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus". That follows certain statements in regard to time. It says, "For if a law had been given able to quicken, then indeed righteousness were on the principle of law; but the scripture has shut up all things under sin, that the promise, on the principle of faith of Jesus Christ, should be given to those that believe". That is an allusion to time. "Guarded under law, shut up to faith which was about to be revealed. So that the law has been our tutor up to Christ, that we might be justified on the principle of faith. But, faith having come", -- that is an allusion to time -- "we are no longer under a tutor", another allusion to time. "There is no Jew nor Greek; there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus: but if ye are of Christ, then ye are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise". These verses show how everything was awaiting the period of faith, so that we are now in the faith period, and being in that period we are all the sons of God, as it says, "by faith in Christ Jesus". That is how we come into it. It is a period of time that has come according to divine fixity, and every believer today is included in the "sons". It is a question of receiving it. It is there for you.

L.E.S. The spiritual import of the prophetic scriptures would have the present period in view,

whereas the administrative side would have the millennial day in view.

J.T. That is the way the thing stands. There are many foreshadowings of the faith period and there are the foreshadowings of the administrative period too. We are in the faith period. The millennium would be the sight period, but it will be the period alluded to in Ephesians, where all things in heaven and earth are headed up in Christ. Things will be open then; now it is a time of mystery, the mystery of God's will.

J.D. The Lord said, "Abraham exulted in that he should see my day, and he saw and rejoiced", John 8:56. He looked forward to a city that has foundations. He will find all realised in that day.

J.T. I think Abraham rejoicing to "see my day" alludes to his son, the time when Christ is known as Son in the house, but the city is the administrative side.

W.B. Would you say a word more, "That we might receive".

J.T. It is a wonderful suggestion seen in so many settings. Things are all for us to be received. They are there for us, it is a question of receiving them. In John 4 the Lord spoke to the woman about gift, but in John 7 it is what is received. "This he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive". In John 4 it is what is given. The two things stand, the thing that is to be received is on a giving principle.

R.B. Does this show that all christians, the young included, do not receive an inferior position as children, but sonship, and thus would come into the full privileges of the assembly?

J.T. That is the intent of it. Public christianity has gone back to the period of law. The apostle says they should not go back to the beggarly elements. These elements in themselves were good,

but they have lost their character in the way they have been held, and the Galatian saints were going back to that. We must remember that here the word 'children' refers to the position of a minor, whereas the word 'children' applied to the people of God, the family of God as in John, is a dignified title. We can take the place of being children of God, and this refers to all christians. Children of God is our position here below. That is an important distinction to make.

R.R.T. Would this expression, "when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son", involve the thought that from the very beginning of time God had this moment in view when He would send forth His Son?

J.T. Quite so. We begin with Seth, he is a type of Christ. Abraham is a type of Christ, then we come down to others such as Isaac, also a type of Christ.

R.R.T. So the expression as he goes on to say, "come of woman, come under law", would indicate that every one of these great movements of God in creation and in relation to the law, all led up to this moment when Christ would come.

J.T. Quite so. Faith looked for it. Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day. He looked for it and he saw it. He saw it, I apprehend, as in Isaac. He saw the idea. While faith did exist in these men it was not the period of faith. They were still minors as to the apprehension of faith. You hardly ever get the word 'faith' in the Old Testament, except in Habakkuk once.

H.G-h. It suggests that that was not the faith period. Is it because everything has come out in Christ?

J.T. It is on that principle. The parables are to hide the truth from the natural mind. Faith discerns it. It requires energy of faith to lay hold of christianity.

John's gospel stresses faith being for the last day. The disciples believed on Him, and "these things are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name".

W.B. In Hebrews 11 it says, "these died in faith".

J.T. Yes, it was there but it was not the period of it. The Spirit of God there names the thing that was in them. Hebrews 11 is the great life chapter of the epistle. We are in the realm of life there.

W.G.H. If we are all God's sons by faith, it would be true that all receive adoption.

J.T. And additionally, we should receive the Spirit of adoption, "God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father". That gives us the consciousness of it. I think teaching is needed in regard to this point. What we have been speaking of this afternoon is for every young christian; it is his inheritance. It is because he is living in this period that sonship is his. It is only a question of taking it in and letting it work out in our conduct and liberty. The matter of being a son is light. It is the mind of God, that period having come. But the crying "Abba, Father", is by the Spirit of adoption.

W.B. So that we might receive sonship. The "we" there would include the apostle himself.

J.T. He would tell you what he went through in Romans 7, and how he came into the thing consciously. He says in Romans 8:14, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God". They are marked off in that way.

C.S.P. It would be instruction in this period of tutors and governors.

J.T. I think so. It is educational. "By law is knowledge of sin" illustrates it. The Old Testament is full of instruction, and it is written for us. It really was written anticipatively for christians. The

whole of Scripture is in the setting of faith, but until the time of faith came, they would not understand it.

C.S.P. Would it suggest the futility, of the flesh? It speaks of Abraham having received the covenant of circumcision and thus he begat Isaac and circumcised him the eighth day (Acts 7:8).

J.T. Yes, the Old Testament scriptures were not understood even by the writers themselves. Peter, especially, tells us that they did not understand, but it was revealed to them for their own benefit that things they ministered were not for themselves but for us (1 Peter 1:12).

R.R.T. Would you say, that there may be in some soul a condition of being "held in bondage" as verse 3 says, or would "because ye are sons" be descriptive of every christian? The Galatians were again under bondage.

J.T. I think that describes christians generally who are in human organisations. They are under the principles of the world.

R.R.T. Yet it says, "ye are sons", but in the state of one's soul, it may not have been apprehended.

J.T. What is needed is teaching. It says "they shall be all taught of God" (John 6:45), and a part of that teaching is this epistle, so that if you come in contact with a real christian, even if he be in the Romish or the Anglican system, you can say to him, "Be as I am, for I also am as ye", Galatians 4:12. Now we are all sons, we are all sons of God. It is a question of light coming into the soul. I think Galatians is most important at the present time in delivering people from bondage.

J.D. Would you in the presence of christians be free to present what we have been speaking of this afternoon? The apostle goes on to say, that he might announce Him (God's Son) as glad tidings among the nations (Galatians 1:16).

J.T. Sonship belongs to the gospel. What can be more attractive to a person in whom God is working, than the thought of this glorious family relationship, and that it belongs to all who are in this period fixed by God?

J.D. That is the wealth of the nations.

J.T. That is quite so. The setting of this, that we might receive sonship, is initially a Jewish one. Christ came in under the law, came of a woman, that we might receive sonship. It is a Jewish we, I think. It is presented here with the intention that the Jewish believers might be delivered from the bondage in which they were held. Another thing is that in the fulness of time, God sent forth His Son, "come of woman"; it is in humanity here that this is said of Him.

H.G-h. Why does it bring in the thought, "when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, come of woman, come under law, that he might redeem those under law, that we might receive sonship". Galatians 4:5?

J.T. The apostle is stressing that side of the redemptive work of Christ. He is stressing this point now, because that is where the Galatians were defective. Virtually he says to them, You are sons, why are you going back to the nursery when you have all the liberty of the house? In John 8:31 - 33, the Lord says to those who believed on Him, "If ye abide in my word, ye are truly my disciples; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. They answered him, We are Abraham's seed and have never been under bondage to any one; how sayest thou, Ye shall become, free?". Never in bondage? What a nonsensical thing to say! Never in bondage to anyone? They were then in bondage to the Romans. The Lord would not wound their feelings, but He says, "Every one that practises sin is the bondman of sin". That is a mild way of dealing

with sin, but I believe the Lord is really alluding to human organisations as characterised by sin, and those who serve in that way are bondmen. The clerical system is in bondage to those things. The Lord says, "The bondman abides not in the house for ever", without saying anything as to the terribleness of sin. The Lord Jesus is just dealing with one thing. The bondman does not abide in the house. Then it says, "If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free". The Son is in the house and He is there for ever, so if the Son sets you free, you are free indeed. I believe the application in our time, and the use of the words sin and bondage, refer to those who serve the clerical system. They are in bondage to it and characteristically they do not stay, because a bondman does not stay in the house. Whereas the Son came in, in principle bringing blessing to the family and abiding there. The setting is free. It is but showing us how He Himself is a Son before God, and we are in that relationship through redemption. It is a glorious side of the truth, and I do not know of any side as to which teaching is more needed at the present time.

R.R.T. The present activity on the part of divine Persons is to bring us into this sonship. There is the activity of the Son, and then the activity of the Father in sending out the Spirit of His Son into our hearts. It would indicate the activity on the part of divine Persons to bring us into sonship.

J.T. That is a good remark. The three divine Persons are engaged in the liberation and blessing of the saints.

R.B. Do you connect the gift of the Spirit with the thought of sonship?

J.T. Yes, it is called the Spirit of adoption.

R.B. The Spirit of Christ was mentioned. Is there any distinction between that and the Holy Spirit?

J.T. There is a distinction between the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of adoption. It is the same Spirit in each case. The Spirit of Christ is really the Holy Spirit, but too in the sense of family. It is the Spirit of the family and the Spirit of Christ. The Holy Spirit in John 14 is viewed under the title of Comforter. It is that title that makes the personality of the Spirit's presence here outstanding. In John's gospel He is viewed as a dove, then as the wind, then as water, then as the Paraclete and Comforter, and then as breath. He is viewed under these terms and the force of all that is to show that the Spirit is substance. His presence is a reality.

L.E.S. Do you think Deuteronomy spiritually understood would belong to the period of sonship? It says, "Ye are sons of Jehovah your God".

J.T. I think that Deuteronomy is like the fulness of the Mosaic period, because it is Moses himself really as a type of Christ, speaking according to the spirit of the law, not after the letter of the law. Deuteronomy is the fulness of the Mosaic period. In scripture the testimony of God is presented under the numeral three, almost throughout. That is, we have three persons coming to Abraham at Mamre, three periods or dispensations; in Exodus you get three ministers, Moses, Aaron and Miriam. These were the leaders. And so in truth you get that principle of three. Three is full testimony from God. He may give more, but three is ample, but development on our side is under the heading of seven. The subjective side is under the heading of seven. Deuteronomy is the fulness of the ministerial period. In Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers you have law in the letter, that is, the ministerial chapters. Deuteronomy is not that, it is the fulness of things. Moses himself is seen in Deuteronomy as king in Jeshurun, he is regarded with affection among the people. The

blessing of Moses is entirely on the divine side, the spiritual side. So you can see how the idea of fulness of the ministerial period came in.

T.A. Would you say that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, would set forth the three ministers?

J.T. Three men came to Abraham; you see there the thought of three. Then the thought of father, in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That is what characterises christianity. Christianity is not a period of judgment. All judgment is committed into the hands of the Son, so that the present time is characteristically free from judgment. God is not imputing trespasses. There is no testimony of judgment, but it is the throne of grace and that is the Father's throne, so I believe after you have the three presented to Abraham that you have the idea of father expressed in the three patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They foreshadow our dispensation in the sense of grace as presented by the Father.

C.S.P. Is that the thought in Ephesians, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ?

J.T. That is right. John stresses it too. Paul says, "To us there is one God, the Father". When you come to the ministerial side it is Christ, not in Isaac but in Moses and Aaron and Miriam. That is another side, so that we have Him at the right hand of God, carrying on the ministry. I believe that Deuteronomy would suggest the fulness of that, fulness of the ministerial side.

L.E.S. Would "Out of Egypt have I called my son" be the full answer to that, the full thought set out in Deuteronomy?

J.T. Yes, it is touched on.

A.D.S. In regard to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, I think we understand a little of what is set forth in Moses and Aaron, but what feature is set forth in connection with Miriam?

J.T. I mention it because they are placed together in Micah 6:4, "And I sent before thee Moses, Aaron and Miriam", a remarkable thing. I believe that Miriam is the subjective side of it. All the way through the ministerial books there is that thought, something for God. Generally speaking, there were times in the wilderness when there was something for God, so Numbers says, "What hath God wrought!". God has accomplished something during those periods in spite of the general state. Miriam is that side, because in the first song she appears, she is said to be prophetess, the sister of Aaron, linking up with the two great ministers, and she has part in the song. It is almost a repetition of what Moses said, but still it is what Miriam said, and the women of Israel followed her. There was something for God.

H.G-h. Do the scriptures read this afternoon, follow in the order in which they were read?

J.T. The idea of time is very important in the setting in which we have considered it, and opens the way for the fulness of Israel and the fulness of the nations. The fulness of Israel will be when they are gathered up by Christ, and reinstated in their own land (Psalm 144). What a wonderful time! The apostle says, "If their fall be the world's wealth, and their loss the wealth of the nations, how much rather their fulness?" Romans 11:12. Their fulness in the millennium, meaning that the working out of all God's thoughts in them, will mean more wealth than we have now. "How much rather their fulness?" Then the nations in verse 25, "I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, that ye may not be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the nations be come in". That is what is going on now. That is to say, God established the nations, at least He formed human races and nations at Babel, but

He set the bounds of their dwellings really to present the gospel to them. Genesis 11 has in mind that the gospel is to be presented to nations in time, so the Scriptures preach the gospel to Abraham, a remarkable thing. "In thee all the nations shall be blessed". That was in prospect. The fulness of that is in mind here. In christianity, in all this wonderful period of the gospel, is the fulness of the nations. God has worked out all things in time.

G.C. The fulness of the nations is different from the fulness of time.

J.T. Yes, and fulness is in persons. It is the outcome. It was the whole development from Babel to this dispensation. What a wonderful result God will get through the gospel! The promise was to Abraham in regard to the nations. He would regard them, although he had a special blessing in regard to his own family. Jehovah says of him, "He is a prophet, and will pray for thee", and he did. That is our position now. The world is in reconciliation and our position is to pray for the nations, for kings and for all men.

J.D. The apostle says the Scripture foreseeing that God would justify the nations, announced the glad tidings to Abraham, saying, "In thee all the nations shall be blessed". Abraham had the day of sonship in mind.

J.T. He had the thought that there would be the fulness of the nations, so that when the king of Sodom says, 'You take the goods, I will take the persons', he says, 'Oh no!'. What God gets out of the nations is persons, so Paul speaks of offering them: "that the offering up of the nations might be acceptable".

J.L.F. Paul laboured to that end, that he might present every man perfect.

J.T. Quite so, and that there should be an offering up of the nations, offering up to God. In fact, all fulness must be for God.

L.E.S. How far would you say the thought of nations extended? Is there a difference between nations and people? We speak of the heathen.

J.T. It would be a question of the context in which the word is used. People would refer to different stocks, as we call them, as the Japhethites. The race was divided up into three heads, Shem, Ham and Japheth, but with many subdivisions as the outcome of climatic and moral conditions, such as negroes, Indians, Chinese, Maoris and a host of others. God, I am sure, had followed up every link and has all before Him, so that He intends that the whole race of men should be blessed. The Son of man is Christ in relation to the whole race of men. The gospel is to all men. In traversing the world, one sees the lowest type of man, but they have a claim on God. One has met them, some christians, and they can claim sonship; so can the negro and all other races. It is a wonderful time, and it is important to make clear that it is a question of the time.

J.G.B. "Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings".

J.T. To all creation. The world there is the moral system. There is a difference if you preach to men in a wicked city, or if you look at them abstractly as God's creatures. The gospel is preached to all creation.

T.A. Do you make a distinction between the gospel of the grace of God and of the kingdom?

J.T. Yes, there are about thirteen designations of the gospel in the New Testament, each having its own significance.

H.G-h. In "having made known ... the mystery of his will", is it the thought that the saints of this

dispensation should understand all that God is going to bring into effect?

J.T. Certainly, the mystery is to be understood by initiated persons. To the public it is not known at all. The leaders of the world do not understand the place in the mind of God of the saints now here in this world until the Lord comes. The mystery of God's will requires that there will not be another king save Christ. All power in heaven and upon earth, all things, are to be headed up in Christ. It brings in the thought of wisdom being in Christ. His wisdom determines everything, and nothing in result will be out of keeping with the mind of God. The heading up of all things in heaven and earth in Christ is the administration of the fulness of times.

L.E.S. I was wondering if God's thought of the nations did not go as far as their being subservient to Israel. Is that the widest possible thought?

J.T. It refers to Abraham, the fulness of the nations. Of course, there are the times of the gentiles; that is another thing; that means the four monarchies spoken of in Daniel. The nations go back to Genesis 10.

J.D. In Mark 16, the Lord said, "Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation".

J.T. You have to understand what is meant. We do not preach to cows, but still they are not out of sight. In Nineveh there was much cattle.

R.B. How is that word in Mark put into effect at the present time?

J.T. Every time you preach the gospel it is put into effect. At that time the world was viewed as a system, and it meant suffering. Preaching to all creation means that you look at the men that you have to do with as God's creatures, not as members of a system. That makes a great difference in preaching to them.

R.R.T. While God is moving in relation to the fulness of time, there is also the fulness of evil. "The iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full".

J.T. That is another side of the position, and that is going on now. The mystery of iniquity is working out today.

W.G.H. The assembly is the present answer to God of what He purposed and promised to Israel.

J.T. Quite so. Fulness all enters into that, and the question is raised as to how it has been carried out.

Ques. Why do we not send out missionaries?

J.T. It is a question of what is seemly in time. We are in a terribly low state of christendom, and it is not the time for that, it is a question of getting at christians in the systems and gathering them.

W.M.F. You spoke of the energy of faith. What do you have in mind?

J.T. Energy is a simple word. Those who speak about faith just as a theory are not active. Faith ought to be active. If anyone wants to learn about energy of faith, read Philippians 3.

THE FULNESS (5)

Exodus 4:22, 23; Exodus 28:1 - 4, 40 - 43; Malachi 3:16 - 18

J.T. What is in mind is to show that these Old Testament scriptures, connected with the New Testament, bring out that sonship is the primary thought of God in view of His being served, and that is the abiding thought. So we have it at the outset in the ministerial book of Exodus, and then we have it in the last book of the Old Testament, for Jehovah says that all those that serve Him "shall be unto me a peculiar treasure ... and I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him".

But in view of conditions in which the service of God is carried on provisionally, that is the conditions in which we are now, priesthood comes in, priesthood representing what is needed to meet these conditions, and to protect what is of God, so as to maintain the service in holiness. As these conditions come to an end, as they will in our perfected state in heavenly glory, there will be no need for the priesthood, for it is a provisional thing. What will abide as before God is sonship, the saints in that relation. So that at the end of the Old Testament period God Himself speaks of His son that serves Him, using the figure of a man sparing his son that serveth him, his own son indeed.

What suggest themselves in this connection are the prophetic statements of Scripture relative to the saints in relation to God's service, especially in assembly, such as "Ye are Christ's body, and members in particular" (1 Corinthians 12:27) and then "a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ", 1 Peter 2:5. Then again, "Ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:26), and "Because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father", Galatians 4:6. These scriptures in

the New Testament correspond with what we have in the Old, reminding the saints of what they are, what we are as the body of Christ, as at the Lord's supper, "We, being many, are one loaf", partakers of that one bread. Then we are a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices unto God. We are, as Galatians states, sons of God, and have the spirit of adoption whereby we cry, Abba, Father. These scriptures I hope will serve as a basis for our reading.

J.D. With reference to the thought of priesthood not going into the eternal state, I think you remarked last year on the absence of reference to the ephod in regard to David in the end of 1 Chronicles; that it is not said that he was robed in an ephod as he was in his younger days, in chapter 15. The ephod is absent. Is that the difference between priesthood and sonship?

J.T. I think that is right. What helps too, is that the glory coming into the temple prevented the priests serving, the priest could not serve or minister, not that the persons are not retained, but the office is not needed. The persons remain and are represented in the materials of the temple such as the different woods and metals. These typify the saints according to their abiding relation.

G.J.B. Are there not priests forever according to the order of Melchisedec?

J.T. That alludes to Christ. We are not priests according to the order of Melchisedec. We are priests according to the function in which we serve as typified in Aaronic functions. The Melchisedec priesthood belongs wholly to Christ as far as Scripture records.

J.D. I think you would help us if you would say a few words on Romans 6 and 7 as to how that man arrived at the conclusion that he would serve with his mind God's law.

J.T. I am glad you bring in Romans, because it is the initial epistle in which every young christian should be instructed, and among many other things it touches priesthood, the elements of it. The initial element of it is seen in the reference to the Lord Jesus marked out Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by resurrection of the dead. That element develops into priesthood in the body of the epistle, and it begins in the believer reckoning himself dead to sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus, and using his members as instruments of righteousness unto God, and in proceeding thus, he has his fruit unto holiness. That is, the believer arrives at that and the end is everlasting life.

But we are speaking now of priesthood and the link is with holiness. Then in chapter 7 we are told that we are to serve in newness of spirit, not in oldness of the letter. That is, in serving God it is a new thing, and it is new in the spirit of it. What is current today in christendom is not that at all, but a reversion to an Old Testament state of things involving something of paganism. What is called the service of God publicly is a hopeless mixture. The saints should understand that what is seen throughout christendom today is a hopeless mixture and certainly not new. It is as old as humanity. It is the religion that in principle appeals to man in the flesh, not that there are not christians in it, but the Lord seeks to extricate the real from it. "I stand at the door and am knocking", Revelation 3:20. So Romans says we are to serve in newness of spirit, not in the oldness of the letter, not in regard to the old form of service that was established at Jerusalem and extended back to the wilderness of Sinai.

In Romans 7:25 the apostle also says, "I myself with the mind serve God's law". He reaches that through an experimental process. The flesh will serve the law of sin, it can do nothing else, but he

had reached the point where he served God's law with his mind. I believe he had found his feet as a priest, so that God is before him. Then in chapter 8 the Spirit comes in: the Spirit is life in view of righteousness, but the body is dead on account of sin. That is, one comes to that point, that the body is no longer available to sin, and the Holy Spirit in it is life. In chapter 12 the believer presents his body a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is his intelligent service. That is priesthood, I think, briefly, as told us in Romans. The term priesthood is used in relation to the Jewish christians, but its meaning is clear enough.

When we come to these scriptures we see that priesthood is not a primary thought, but sonship is. The message to Pharaoh is not, 'Let my priest go', but "Let my son go, that he may serve me", as in the wilderness. We have in these scriptures in Exodus some four or five times over, "that he may serve me as priest", and "that they may serve me as priests". Now we have to understand that along with chapter 4, where God says that it is "my son" that is to serve. Why does He say at Sinai, "That he may serve me as priest", and "that they may serve me as priests", but not a word about sons? That is what we have to see.

H.G-h. Are you implying in suggesting the thought of priesthood being a provisional thing, it is in view of present conditions?

J.T. That is right in view of what we are in the flesh still. The flesh lusts against the Spirit. There is always that danger, and because of that, and because of external conditions around us, priesthood is necessary.

J.D. Would there be any reference to that thought in Hebrews 7:28, "For the law constitutes men high priests, having infirmity; but the word of

the swearing of the oath which is after the law, a Son perfected for ever"?

J.T. Quite so. Sonship is underlying it. Priesthood is necessary because of conditions, but sonship will remain when the official side is not needed.

W.G.H. What do you mean, because of conditions?

J.T. As sitting in the assembly with others, you are conscious of having the flesh in you. The flesh is always ready to serve sin. It is in view of that and external conditions as well, that we need the priesthood. The dress that is described in Exodus 28 is to instruct us what it is, and what are the qualities of christians that enable them to stand out against those conditions and maintain the holiness of God in spite of them.

J.A.W. What is conveyed to us by the expression the law of sin?

J.T. It is to be learned from Romans 7. Another law, he says, is warring in my members, that is the law of sin. The word 'law' is a remarkable word in Romans. It is worth while studying the setting of the different references to law. He says, "I speak to those knowing law". Roman christians are evidently viewed as knowing law. It means, I think, that sin will operate as it has opportunity. The word 'law' in that sense implies a principle, like the law of gravity or other laws of creation, they operate consistently. The law of sin will operate consistently with itself. The flesh is always amenable to it, hence we must disallow the flesh.

W.B. It is a most extraordinary thing that we find ourselves in such a condition. I am very thankful that the idea of priesthood is being taken up, because we need to understand the principle of it.

J.T. Exactly. You take the thief on the cross; he was saved through faith in Christ, and the Lord says, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise".

Now that man in paradise did not need priesthood, in the sense in which we speak of it. If it were possible for him to come down from the cross alive, and be here as a christian in Jerusalem, he would still have the flesh in him, and coming into the assembly in Jerusalem he would need priesthood, he would need to battle against this thing that led him to the cross as a malefactor. He would need priesthood to keep him, which involves the Spirit.

M.D.F. Would you suggest that sonship must be known before we become priests?

J.T. I think that is how the matter stands in Scripture, that the primary thought of God for His people is that they are to be before Him forever as sons. All primary thoughts are permanent thoughts. All provisional thoughts are for us for a time; then they lapse. Priesthood is amongst them.

R.R.T. So that the highest form of service Godward is the service of a son.

J.T. Yes, it will go on, I believe, that when, in the temple, the priests could not serve, it means God is saying, I want you on other ground. Priesthood was there, and it served a good purpose, there was a perfect note in the song. Then the glory filled the house and the priests could no more serve, but that does not mean the persons are rejected or shut out. They are there typically in the woods and metals, and other things in the building itself. That is to say, instead of priests, God says, 'You are before Me now free of all that would hinder you, and I want to have a little time with you as sons. That is My eternal thought for you'.

L.E.S. The two thoughts would be suggested in. Malachi 3:18 where it is said, "And ye shall return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not". That would be priesthood.

J.T. Yes. After Jehovah speaks of them figuratively as sons, then He reverts to priesthood. The great point in Malachi is what marked priesthood, that is holiness.

H.G-h. That is encouraging to us, that in prevailing conditions God can be served.

J.T. Yes. He can be served in spite of the terrible conditions about.

J.D. How far does the thought of service go connected with priesthood? Peter says, "a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God". That does not seem to be connected with discriminating between good and evil.

J.T. Discriminating is only one side of the priesthood, and that is why I read in Exodus 28, because much is made of the high caps which the sons of Aaron were to wear. The high caps denote the intelligence, the renewed mind that Romans teaches, that we do not use our natural minds in the things of God, that we use the renewed mind, that is a holy mind.

W.B. When you say that the temple is taken possession of by God and the priests are unable to serve, is your thought that the temple itself represents the people of God?

J.T. It does. The apostle in 1 Corinthians 3:16 says, "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?". And in Ephesians 2:21, "All the building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord". That is, the saints form it and God would have us, as it were, to Himself, even if only for a moment in the assembly. He would love to have us on the ground of sonship, while all the time in a public way in addressing Him we speak as priests in holy language.

H.G-h. Is that why dress is made so much of?

J.T. I think so. The dress has different parts, alluding to spiritual qualities in the saints, so you begin with the ephod, and all that attaches to it; then the breastplate, then the cloak, then the turban, which is especially to be noted because it alludes to intelligence. The sons of Aaron have high caps, it is moral elevation in our thoughts.

L.E.S. To go back, why does it mention two or three times the term 'brother', connected with Aaron?

J.T. It is to show how the priesthood is allied with authority in Christ. Moses is a type of Christ in authority. Aaron represents the element of the brother. Priesthood attaches to the brother. What do you say?

L.E.S. I think that is very good. I wanted to get the thought as to the brother underlying what you are speaking of in regard to priesthood now.

J.T. You find in the epistles, Paul associates the brother with him when speaking authoritatively.

J.L.F. It is always Aaron who is called the brother.

J.T. He is introduced to us as a brother. The first mention of Aaron in Exodus 4:14 is "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well". It would mean that he would speak with grace and intelligence. Moses always had the place of priest in the sense that he always had access to the holiest. He was never forbidden anything. In Numbers 7:89 he went in to speak to Jehovah. That was priestly access, and Jehovah spoke to him. I think it means the Lord as viewed in His own Person. Everything attaches to Him; He is pre-eminent in all things.

Moses says he cannot speak, but God knew be could speak and ultimately he did speak wonderfully. But Aaron is first introduced in "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well.

And also behold, he goeth out to meet thee; and when he seeth thee he will be glad in his heart". That is the idea of a priest, a sympathetic and loving person who is accustomed to speak to God. God alludes to him as knowing he can speak well.

R.R.T. So it goes much beyond his speaking to Pharaoh. It goes on to the service in the priesthood.

J.T. You get it illustrated in Exodus 16, where Israel murmured. They spoke about fleshpots that they had there. Like young christians, they get tired of the position and would like to go back to the world and have a bit of it. It is constant amongst us. It says that Aaron spoke to them, not Moses. Authority will not do now. When young people, after having tasted the good word of God and the enjoyment of the assembly with us, begin to say, 'I want to go back and have a bit of the world', there is no use in using mere authority. They need more than that; they need something to hold them in their affections. So it says, Aaron spoke to them, and as he spoke they looked towards the wilderness -- a remarkable thing. As much as to say, That gracious speaking from the brethren encourages me to turn my back on Egypt, and look towards the wilderness; hard to travel as it seems to be, I think after all that is the way I will take. Many a young christian has said that, has considered in his own mind before God that after all there is no one like the brethren, no sympathy like what you have amongst them. As they looked towards the wilderness the glory of the Lord appeared. God says, You think the wilderness is bad, but think of My glory. I think that illustrates as much as anything what priesthood is in its practical bearing, and Aaron was that kind of speaker. Jehovah says, "I know he can speak well".

J.F. So you think in that connection that priesthood serves to minister to the thought of sonship and develop it?

J.T. It is a guide and involves great instruction and great knowledge of God. Of course, every christian is a priest but the thing seen characteristically is in Aaron and his sons. That is to say, characteristically you must have spiritual persons. So what you find in our movements and in our history in assemblies locally throughout the world is that there are certain ones who care, who are deeply concerned about everything. Everyone in the meeting should be deeply concerned, but as a matter of fact everyone is not, but you see in those who are the idea of priesthood, that they watch things. They know the world and the flesh in the saints and are constantly watching so the flesh has no place amongst us. They are spiritual men.

W.G.H. They would be marked by great dignity, as serving in the light of sonship.

J.T. They are sons; the idea of sonship underlies it as in Hebrews 7:28, "A Son perfected for ever".

W.G.H. You can only serve in that light, whether young or old. There is no service apart from that.

J.T. But the element of holiness reached through the teaching of Romans is to be kept in mind, that it is experience that brings us to it as to the thing characteristically.

C.S.P. Is the service of sonship the service of love?

J.T. Exactly. It is a person in that relation, and you desire liberty of soul in speaking to God and to the saints, too; but there is something about one that is called spiritual, he knows what to do in an emergency and how to do it. It is intelligence. The priest's high caps denote intelligence.