Pages 1 to 170. "Readings on the Epistle to the Romans", New York, 1917 - 18 (Volume 194).

READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (1)

Romans 1:1 - 32

B.T.F. Would you say that Romans was written with the intent of establishing believers in the principles of the gospel?

J.T. I suppose so. Those to whom Paul wrote are addressed as saints, "called saints", so that the truth of the gospel is in that way communicated to believers and left with them.

A.R.S. It is important to see that the gospel is about Christ. He is the Subject of it.

J.T. It is a letter on the great subject of the gospel, and it is marked by apostolic authority, "Paul" being the first word in the letter. He is "a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God".

C.A.M. Would you say that the epistle met the exercises existing at Rome?

J.T. I would say that.

C.A.M. Say a few words as to how it met those exercises.

J.T. The assembly there was composed largely of immigrants from the East, and being in Rome they needed to be adjusted in regard to God, to each other, and to the governing powers that then existed, indeed, to the whole scheme of God's purpose as to the earth. But although Paul knew many of them personally, he did not know them as an assembly by means of a visit; his letter, however, would take the place of a visit, carrying with it all the authority of his mission from Christ, and at the same time setting out in the most orderly way, first of all the conditions

that existed in the gentile world, and those existing in what you might call the cultivated world, Greek and Jew, and showing how God met all in Christ through redemption. Consequent on God's intervention in Christ and through accomplished righteousness in His death, the believer is adjusted in regard to all these things. There is also adjustment in regard to sin in the world, sin in the believer and the law. That is how the body of the epistle stands. We have also light as to God's faithfulness in regard to His promises to the Jews, and the believer's position on earth, that believers are one body in Christ; and then also, as I remarked, the believer's relations with the powers that existed, the governing powers.

C.B. I suppose all these adjustments need to take place with us, as they did with the saints in earlier days.

J.T. In these parts, to which we have immigrated, our circumstances are very much, speaking generally, like those of the saints in Rome; we have, at any rate, to come back to Romans constantly for adjustment.

C.A.M. The thought of adjustment is perhaps not very easily taken in -- who or what is adjusted?

J.T. Well, it is man. Man in responsibility is in view in Romans. He is not viewed as dead as in Ephesians or Colossians, but as alive, first in his sins and then as justified, but always in responsibility. He is regarded as alive and in the sphere of responsibility all through.

C.A.M. So that adjustment is for the earth in that way.

J.T. Yes; man is recovered for God here on earth, where the breakdown occurred.

A.N.W. Heaven is not referred to much in Romans; this is worthy of notice, especially in view of the fact that many regard the gospel as simply a means of getting to heaven.

J.T. It is adjustment on earth that is more particularly in view; the question was as to whether man could be righteously in relationship with God as on earth.

B.T.F. The gospel then should be presented to men as such.

J.T. Yes; the epistle is an orderly setting forth of the truth of the gospel so as to meet the conditions that existed on the earth as the result of sin.

A.N.W. The primary key to adjustment would be the recognition of the rights of God.

J.T. That is the first thing we have to admit.

C.B. Would you say that this epistle presents man as justified through faith, but in responsibility on the earth as under the authority of Another?

J.T. Yes. As we go on in the epistle we shall see how it is worked out. First it is "the gospel of God", and it is "concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord". He is the theme of it, and so at the outset there is an Object for the heart.

W.L.P. "He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" -- is that adjustment?

J.T. Yes; that is in regard of God. We have here "the gospel of God", then there are "the glad tidings of the glory of the blessed God" (1 Timothy 1:11) also "the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ" (Ephesians 3:8). These latter undoubtedly are extensions or developments, but what is immediately before the apostle here is the adjustment of things in regard to God. It was urgent then, and it is urgent now with everyone -- we must be adjusted in our souls in regard to God and everything that He recognises here on earth.

J.S. That would bring men into righteousness. Righteousness is revealed in the gospel that men might be brought into righteousness; and there is revealed wrath against all unrighteousness, against ungodliness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness.

J.T. The righteousness of God is revealed, and it is "on the principle of faith, to faith". Comparison between Romans, Colossians and Ephesians helps to show what characterises Romans, namely, the recognition of all that God had recognised before, and all that He then recognised. This is important, especially for young people. Living in the metropolis of the world, people would be apt to make much of Rome; this letter makes nothing of Rome as a city, but the apostle recognises Jew and gentile -- the Jew first, and the promises made to him. These things being taken up in this letter, and their absence from the other two letters help to an understanding of the difference in the teaching.

J.S. Rome was held by men to be the centre, but it was not God's centre.

J.T. No, it was the centre of the Babylonish system.

C.B. Christ's sonship is emphasised here. It is introduced immediately.

J.T. He is said to have "come of David's seed according to flesh", but "marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead". Christ is set before us as the Son of God, but He is also of David's seed; this and the reference to the Old Testament scriptures are significant. It is not here an arbitrary statement as to His deity; but one of what had come to light in a Man on the earth. In John 1:1 we get, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". That is an absolute statement of His deity; here what has been "declared", or "marked out", is referred to. He is marked out Son of God in power by resurrection. It is not here God raising Him, but what He did Himself.

C.A.M. What is the force of "seed of David"?

J.T. I think that it is that God is calling attention to what He had recognised before; Romans goes

back to that; it is not God's eternal thought. The reference is to what He had set up on earth before, and which He would maintain. He never loses a thread.

C.A.M. Is that why we have so much of the kingdom in Romans?

J.T. Yes; the kingdom is the exercise of God's grace in power in man; it is in Christ that the testimony introduced in David is made good. He was David's seed, but manifestly Son of God in power, for He raised the dead. What a mighty fact that One who had taken the form of a lowly Man was marked out thus as Son of God!

B.T.F. Raising the dead referred to His ministry before He died.

A.N.W. The point regarding the resurrection is most important. Here it is literally, 'resurrection of dead'.

J.T. It refers to the power that marked His ministry; as He said to John the Baptist, "Dead are raised", (Matthew 11:5).

C.A.M. It does not refer specially to His own resurrection.

J.T. Of course it is true that He raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19), but, I think, the reference here is rather to what He did for others.

A.N.W. Say a word about "the Spirit of holiness".

J.T. It would show that everything He did was absolutely according to God; the Spirit of holiness was the Spirit in which things were done.

J.S. It is in contrast to the way things were done by others.

C.A.M. Speaking of resurrection -- is that involved in the adjustment of man, of which we have spoken?

J.T. There can be no doubt; but the point here is that it witnesses to the Son of God.

W.L.P. We have an instance of it in the raising of Lazarus. There was abundant evidence in that act that Christ was "Son of God with power".

B.T.F. "Obedience of faith", the light of God presented in the gospel is responded to in this way.

J.T. The gospel would tend to bring about subjection; we are elect through sanctification unto the obedience of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:2). His obedience is the pattern for us. Here it is the "obedience of faith"; it is not an obedience that is brought about by arbitrary power as in the millennium. In commissioning Paul, the Lord did not have a result, such as Christendom now is, in His mind; He had no thought of making Europe what it has become. His purpose was that there should be "obedience of faith among all the nations".

T.H. God called Abraham and he obeyed (Hebrews 11:8).

J.S. "Of faith" -- does that represent what is of God?

J.T. It is that kind of obedience, in contrast to what would be the result of arbitrary authority. It involves submission to the moral sway of Christ. The Holy Spirit is given to all those that obey Him (Acts 5:32).

J.S. It involves a moral work in you?

J.T. God comes in in Christ, and the heart submits to Christ; no one is affected by the gospel until his heart is subdued. It is not compulsion in an arbitrary way, but moral; what is presented in Christ subdues the heart. I use heart as a general term; I mean that the man, the moral being, is subdued, and subdued willingly, so to speak. Romans is the overcoming of evil with good. All that God is is presented in Christ. This subdues and wins the heart. But it is through faith. Faith is emphasised in this epistle.

W.L.P. Faith could not do anything else but obey.

J.T. Faith is always marked by obedience. As our brother remarked, Abraham was directed to go out and he obeyed. In answer to Saul, the Lord says, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest" -- that was grace; and he "was not disobedient to the heavenly vision", (Acts 26:19).

J.S. Is not faith brought to light by obedience?

J.T. Obedience is the proof of it.

J.S. Referring to the Spirit of holiness, we should be exercised that this should mark us.

J.T. If a man gets up to minister to the Lord's people, much depends upon his spirit. His words are important, because he can only express himself by them, but it is the spirit behind the words that impresses people. Of Stephen it is said, "they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit with which he spoke" (Acts 6:10).

Ques. Can you judge the spirit of a man by his writings, or have you got to know the man personally?

J.T. It has been remarked by someone who knew Mr. Darby, that what impressed him most was his spirit, manifested specially by his prayers while he was alive, and now that he is gone as seen in his hymns. A letter is a substitute for a visit, but Paul shows here how superior the latter is. He longed to see the Romans that he might impart to them some spiritual gift. Evidently he could not impart a spiritual gift by a letter; he desired to see them in order to do that.

W.L.P. Presenting every man perfect in Christ; that would be brought about through his teaching?

J.T. Yes, it is what he aimed at in his ministry.

W.B-w. Paul as out of heaven was perfect; as such he could not be imperfect.

J.T. He says, "I know a man in Christ" (2 Corinthians 12:2).

W.B-w. He says, he "heard unspeakable things said".

J.T. That is a side of the truth we want to get hold of in our souls. We want to know the "man in Christ".

C.A.M. He says, I know him "fourteen years ago", as though it took him a long while to arrive at it.

J.T. The point of time is not before him, it is a continuous "know", he knew the man all the time.

A.N.W. It would suggest the character of the man he knew, he had not spoken of it before; Paul kept the secret of his being caught up for fourteen years.

J.T. I suppose he would not have spoken of it then, were it not that they compelled him. In 2 Corinthians 5 we have new creation. "If any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new". This is normal of a Christian.

B.T.F. Our place "in Christ" would bring us to the wonderful truth that we are loved of God.

J.T. Returning to our chapter we might notice how the apostle was identified with the gospel; he speaks of himself as "a called apostle" separated to it, and then says he is not ashamed of it. It shows what an appreciation he had of it, and the reason assigned is, that it is "the power of God unto salvation". He was not ashamed of it, because of its beneficial effect on man. It was the "power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith" (verses 16,17). I would like that we all should see that -- Paul, an apostle, separated to God's glad tidings, appreciative of what he had to present, and his reason, its beneficial character manward; it shows how sympathetic he was with mankind, to both Jew and Greek.

W.L.P. Sympathetic, too, with God's heart.

J.T. He is in keeping with the moment. It is remarkable how he emphasises it in his opening words, as if to remind us that christianity was set up in the Western world in faith; it is "on the principle", he says, "of faith, to faith". It was not intended to be emphasised as a national religion at all; as seen on earth, christianity is of faith. St Peter's at Rome is all of sight. Faith links up with what is unseen. Christianity was not intended to be national or continental, it is taking out from the nations. Anyone that is national denies the faith. We must refrain from being national in our thoughts. The gospel does not help a nation as such; it is to deliver one from nationalism. I think what we all need, and what the saints of God generally need, is to see that the house of God is universal, not national; faith takes me out of all that is national.

A.N.W. "The just shall live by faith", of whatever nation.

J.S. Abraham was called out of country and kindred.

J.T. It is remarkable how we go back to Abraham as a pattern of faith. Speaking again of the gospel, it says, "righteousness of God is revealed therein". I think it is God's rights asserted in mercy. The rights of God in mercy are revealed in the gospel. One can understand a man like Paul being set apart to present such a gospel as that!

C.A.M. Wrath is also revealed.

J.T. But it is not revealed in the gospel.

A.N.W. Wrath is revealed from heaven.

J.T. Wrath is revealed, it is a standing fact; but the gospel had not that in view.

J.S. What is "unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness"?

J.T. It is men who had the light of God, light that Noah handed on, for instance; men held on to

certain features of it, but did their own will. Holding the form of truth marks Christendom now.

J.S. Men are not subject to Christ. The test is that God has brought in His own Son.

J.T. I think God has shown His abhorrence of sin; now His wrath is revealed from heaven.

B.T.F. You can see the wrath on the Jew at the present time, but can you see it now on the gentile?

J.T. It is revealed only here, not brought into effect; the righteousness of God is revealed and is of faith, to faith.

P.H.P. Wrath comes from heaven. The flood gates of heaven were opened for the flood.

B.T.F. At the end of our chapter we see death as God's penalty.

J.T. Yes. It speaks of those practising such things being worthy of death; that is quite evident. But I think the allusion is that the state of things described forms a dark background to bring into greater display the gospel of God.

READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (2)

Romans 3:1 - 31

Rem. It may help, if you would give a few words as to what leads up to this chapter.

J.T. Our remarks last time did not go beyond the earlier verses of chapter 1. We dwelt at length on the fact that Christ is "marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead"; and that it is "the gospel of God ... concerning his Son".

I think what came before us especially was that the epistle sets out the gospel in an orderly way; showing how God has come in in Christ for the recovery of man. So that the opening passages are rather introductory. Then, the state of the whole race of mankind is depicted in the second half of that chapter. Then, that division of the race that was, so to say, civilised and cultivated, especially the Greek, is taken account of in the early, part of chapter 2. Then the Jew, who had the law, is treated of. So that, "every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God". And now, in the latter part of chapter 3, God opens up His remedy in the gospel.

Rem. The epistle thus becomes very comprehensive. There is nothing in scripture like it, as a presentation of the gospel to all men. You have been summarising up to the point where the righteous judgment of God rests upon all. It suggests, morally, what we get in the flood: God said, "The end of all flesh is come before me" (Genesis 6:13). Here the end of all flesh has come before God morally. Everyone is shut up to God.

J.T. So that God is now free, having convicted all, to open up what He has in His mind as a remedy.

W.L.P. Is that the reason both Jew and gentile are brought under the same judgment?

J.T. At the end of chapter 1 it is man in general; but in chapter 2 the cultivated, or enlightened, sections of the race are dealt with, the Jew and the Greek. It says, "to Jew first and to Greek". I was noticing in the early part of chapter 2 how man is addressed, "O man".

Rem. So that really it is a voice universal, not only to the Jew and the Greek, but to the barbarian; and not only in Paul's day but in every day. It is a universal voice, "O man".

J.T. The address to man is very suggestive both in regard of judgment and of blessing. "Thou art inexcusable, O man, every one who judgest". The thought of man is prominent in certain sections of the Old Testament. In Ezekiel we see how that God, on the ground of the breakdown of the flesh in Israel in the presence of the law, widens out. Ezekiel himself is habitually addressed as "son of man". As if God were speaking to man in the Son.

Rem. I suppose that in the gospels the counterpart of all this would be found in Luke.

J.T. Luke is a sort of confirmation of Paul's doctrine, hence it is the "Son of man" who is presented there, having man in view.

Rem. So that the point reached in chapter 5 would correspond very much with the prodigal son brought into the Father's house. "We are making our boast in God, through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom now we have received the reconciliation".

B.P. Had Judaism to break down before the general title, man, could be brought in?

J.T. Judaism had broken down, so that in addressing man God shows what is in His mind. Only, in chapter 2 it is in a condemnatory way, "Thou art inexcusable, O man, every one who

judgest". That is to say, man had forfeited the title to judge -- to judge another. There was reserved to him the responsibility of judging himself; but the incongruity of judging another, when guilty himself, is shown.

Rem. It is significant that this aspect of the gospel should be addressed to the Romans, because all men were under the dominion of Rome; it was then the centre of the world. Now God would meet them on the ground of His righteousness. How masterly it is that everyone is first brought under the judgment of God. How can we judge one another? We are all a set of sinners -- criminals!

J.T. That is the feature emphasised in chapter 2, the inexcusability of man, however cultivated, for the Greeks were cultivated; but how could they judge others when doing the same things themselves?

B.T.F. Chapter 2 refers to Greeks who, perhaps, did not know God.

J.T. I think so. The address at Athens by Paul formally states that they did not know God; in fact, their altar bore the inscription "To the unknown God". Paul says, "Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you" (Acts 17:23). But they had certain knowledge which distinguished them from the ordinary heathen, and, on the ground of that, they set themselves up as judges. So the early part of chapter 2 is intended to convict the Greeks, and all such in all time, and to show the inexcusability of attempting to judge when the principle of self-judgment has not taken effect. It is that which brings in habitually, as you will observe, the judgment of God. "We know that the judgment of God is according to truth". That is, there was a judgment about these things; the very things they pretended to judge; but the only judgment which was of any account was the judgment which was according to truth.

A.F.M. They had a measure of light, but had no power with the light they possessed, and so practised the same things they exposed in others.

Rem. Is not that because they intentionally used the light they had to enhance themselves as men on earth? They had no intention that that light should advance in the universe anything superior to themselves.

C.A.M. How would they be acquainted with the judgment of God? Chapter 1 seems to allude to what we call God's governmental ways. I mean, in the things that happened to them as evil doers -- they suffered.

J.T. "Who knowing the righteous judgment of God, that they who do such things are worthy of death, not only practise them, but have fellow delight in those who do them".

C.A.M. Did they know of the righteous judgment of God through His governmental dealings?

J.T. I think so. The flood was a known fact. The flood really stands at the beginning of the history of mankind viewed generally. It is a monument of God's judgment, and all the families of Noah would have that testimony. Besides, there is the statement: "The invisible things of him are perceived, being apprehended by the mind through the things that are made, both his eternal power and divinity, -- so as to render them inexcusable". There is, in that way, a witness in creation, and in the government of God, therefore, adequate testimony as to what He is as against evil. Chapter 1 is on that ground.

A.R.S. Man had a witness. For instance, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handywork" (Psalm 19:1). Any ordinary man must know the heavens were called into being by some power.

J.T. Besides, they had the government of God which continues. Government had been committed to Noah. The flood too was the evidence of God's judgment of sin, and the testimony of the flood is known in all nations.

Rem. There was the character of God also, as seen in creation. In Acts 14 we have "We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness". So there are His power and goodness seen in creation, and His government as given to Noah, and witnessed in various ways among the nations. Every day brings an evidence of God's goodness. "His compassions ... are new every morning" (Lamentations 3:22,23).

Rem. God's goodness "leads thee to repentance".

J.T. The existence of death in the world was a standing testimony to the judgment of God. Men were dying constantly. The apostle says, "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses". That was a witness to all of the government of God, so that men were without excuse. They knew the righteous judgment of God and, yet, they continued to do such things as were worthy of death and to have fellow delight in those who did them.

P.H.P. The goodness of God leads to repentance; if a man accepts God's thought of him, he would be led into the light.

J.T. So it says, "To them who, in patient continuance of good works, seek for glory and honour and incorruptibility, life eternal. But to those that are contentious, and are disobedient to the truth,

but obey unrighteousness, there shall be wrath and indignation, tribulation and distress, on every soul of man that works evil, both of Jew first, and of Greek; but glory and honour and peace to every one that works good". Wherever self-judgment comes in, and feeling after God, He is near at hand to help and to bless. It says, "That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us". He was not far from any one of them. For instance, Naaman the Syrian and Cornelius; these are only samples. There were doubtless numberless similar cases. Wherever men took cognisance of the testimony which God placed before them, He was not far from any one of them. God was near all the heathen nations to help them in self judgment. So there was "glory and honour and peace to every one that works good". These are the conditions.

Rem. Ruth was a beautiful example of that.

J.T. And do you not see in the Book of Job another witness brought in as to what went on under these conditions, aside altogether from the law or the special promises made to Israel? There was a man who was exercised, and exercised by the testimony that was available. He alludes to the different things which witnessed to what God is, the heavens, and so on, and we see how God wrought for him.

B.T.F. In what way would you say the gentiles "are a law to themselves"?

J.T. Their conscience bore witness, but their thoughts accused or excused them. Instead of accepting the testimony which God presented, they went by their own thoughts and feelings. All the accusing or excusing was between themselves -- God was left out.

B.T.F. Did not that imply that they were guilty as to wrong doing, although they had not the law as the Jew had it?

J.T. They did the things the law condemned. So that as sinning without law, they were judged without law. There was plenty to judge them without the law. They left God out of the moral codes, but He was taking account of everything, and so "the secrets of men" are to be judged by Him. What is alluded to here is the universal manner of God's dealings in Old Testament times. We are apt to confine Him wholly to the Jew, whereas this is not at any time the case. Time after time He goes out of His way, as it were, to show the gentiles He has His eye on them for blessing, or for judgment. He is the God of the gentile as well as of the Jew.

Rem. If the gentiles see God in His government, in His works, and in His character, and respond to Him, and seek after Him that becomes a law to them. These are principles which God has ever acknowledged from the beginning.

J.T. "These, having no law, are a law to themselves; who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts accusing or else excusing themselves between themselves". God has put the whole history of the gentile into that small compass. He is looking at what goes on in their hearts and consciences and all will be judged by Him: "in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my glad tidings, by Jesus Christ".

A.N.W. Chapter 2:8 is remarkable in that connection. It brings in disobedience.

J.T. "But to those that are contentious, and are disobedient to the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there shall be wrath and indignation, tribulation and distress, on every soul of man that works evil, both of Jew first, and of Greek". These verses help us in meeting the question constantly raised as to what testimony the heathen had, or have. God knows the testimony, and He knows the effect of it on their

consciences and hearts. So whatever accusing or excusing of themselves there may have been, God holds them accountable for the testimony presented and the effect on their consciences.

A.F.M. Does not chapter 1:19,20, show that? Every man has a testimony wherever he may be.

Rem. I suppose the pivotal point is really the conscience. When sin came in, the conscience came into evidence and that is the universal possession of every sane person. So that the judgment of condemnation rests upon the nations as such; but then, those who discern, such as Ruth, Ittai, the Queen of Sheba, and all that came along searching after Him, found Him. It is a principle that always holds good.

J.T. The conscience remains and will remain, even eternally. I suppose, it will be the vehicle of greatest torment in the lost.

A.N.W. Is not that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

J.T. It is what man acquired through disobedience. Among the heathen, it was there. So it says, "their conscience also bearing witness".

C.A.M. They were supposed to recognise God's eternal power and divinity. Was it not to value what they saw in creation? Would you go as far as to say that they had before them what was suggestive of Christ?

J.T. Yes, although they were ignorant of what created things represented. David, who was accustomed to look into the heavens had, I suppose, some thought of it when he said, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork", and, "In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race" (Psalm 19:4,5). One would gather that there was a glimmering of light in his soul of something beyond the mere orbits in the heavens. One feels David, being an

astronomer in a spiritual sense, had some glimmerings as to Christ. The sun is a beautiful figure of Him.

Rem. They had also that which spoke of God's goodness: "He maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" (Matthew 5:45). All that was a testimony to His goodness; but death was there, death reigned; everyone came under its power. Why was that? The conscience of man should surely make that inquiry. So there was a witness to the just and righteous judgment of God upon sin in man.

A.F.M. The last verse of chapter 1 confirms that, "who knowing the righteous judgment of God, that they who do such things are worthy of death".

P.H.P. I suppose this governmental dealing on the part of God in regard of men in the past is now superseded by the gospel.

J.T. There is another feature. He says, "For there is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety". This comes in as a background to the gospel. The wrath of God as revealed from heaven seems to be an additional thought here and, hence, it only enhances the conditions of the gospel. It brings home to man the seriousness of rejecting the gospel. Note the expression here, "is revealed".

B.T.F. Describe how it is revealed.

J.T. With one other exception, it is the only mention of the word 'heaven' in the whole epistle. This is to be noted. God is graciously withholding His wrath in order that man should have every opportunity to believe the glad tidings. Yet, there it is, not hidden, but revealed, and revealed from heaven. So that it will be overwhelming. We all know that everything that comes from heaven is beyond human control. So that the wrath that comes from heaven is to be overwhelming.

B.T.F. Is it not in the sense of judgment to come?

J.T. It is not judgment at the present time, for "now is the accepted time" -- the world is in reconciliation. The wrath is revealed not against men exactly; but against their unrighteousness and impiety.

Rem. In regard to our brother's question, I take it that where the gospel has never been proclaimed these foundation principles that we are going over are still maintained. Where Christ has never been spoken of, or known, the testimony of God is seen in His government and in creation.

A.F.M. Referring to wrath, it is not the judgment of the nations as such, as in Matthew 25, is it?

J.T. I think the wrath spoken of here would go on to the final wrath against all impiety, the unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. It refers to men, and, inasmuch as it is a question of men, God deals with their secrets. As it is put here, "in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my glad tidings, by Jesus Christ". He speaks of a day. It seems as if it would, in this epistle, go on to the great white throne and the final expression of it in the lake of fire.

A.N.W. I suppose it would hardly be said to be revealed until Christ had died. I was thinking of John 3:16; yet the last verse of that chapter ends with, "The wrath of God abideth on him", which I very much doubt would be mentioned without verse 16. I suppose there it is on account of not believing on the Son.

J.T. The reference there, in the mind of the Spirit, is undoubtedly to the Jew. They were guilty of rejecting the Son's testimony; and so were the subjects of the wrath of God, and of it abiding; it is abiding on the Jews, as such, at the present time.

A.N.W. I was putting it in contrast to "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten

Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life". If the gift is not recognised, the wrath is the consequence.

Rem. So the statement here is not specific as to any particular period. "For there is revealed wrath of God from heaven". And it embraces everything until the final separation of evil from good. I think it is an abstract presentation of the thing. You would expect it in an epistle like this, which really treats of God's relation with men.

J.T. You would expect it would be emphasised that God has entered into judgment and must of necessity deal with every detail of evil, not only with national evil, for He does deal with that, but He deals with personal guilt. His wrath has reference to personal guilt. It says, "shall judge the secrets of men". Not national counsels here; but the secrets of men. Their secrets are known and they shall be dealt with.

Rem. Morally, this epistle in the middle of chapter 3 answers to Genesis 6, "The end of all flesh is come before me". For Noah and his family an ark was provided, whereas here we get the mercy-seat. "But now without law righteousness of God is manifested ... righteousness of God ... towards all, and upon all those who believe". The contrast is very beautiful.

C.A.M. You alluded to "revealed wrath" as a background for the gospel.

J.T. It is. But wrath is something which stands out prominently as revealed during this whole dispensation, not as applied or executed, but as revealed, as a witness against evil. The question might be raised as to how God regards men and their wickedness which exists all the time. What are God's thoughts about it? Is He indifferent to it? It seems to me that these two chapters set the conscience of the Christian at perfect rest. Wrath is revealed

against all unrighteousness of men, not only national things, but individual guilt.

A.F.M. Would you present this in the glad tidings? You spoke of wrath as a background for the gospel.

J.T. Most certainly. It is most essential that the judgment of God against sin should be presented. I suppose this epistle is the lesson book as to how the gospel is to be presented. We must bring in the principle of God's judgment of individual guilt. It seems to me that that is emphasised here. "The judgment of God is according to truth upon those who do such things". It is unerring. He does not forget anything. The guilt of the whole human race, and the guilt of each individual, shall come before Him, and shall come before that individual. He will see to it that every individual shall bow to His judgment. Emphasis is laid on the existence of books at the great white throne, which is most remarkable. So each one has to face his guilty history there, if not before. And I am sure his conscience will justify God in consigning him to the lake of fire.

B.T.F. Will you discriminate between conscience and new birth.

J.T. A man is born anew, but his conscience is affected by the light presented to him. I think that as born again a man recognises responsibility to God.

A.N.W. Would one be responsibility and the other sovereignty, conscience referring to responsibility and new birth to God's sovereign act?

J.T. Man received a conscience by partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; but he does not lose it when he is converted. It is an element in him God-like, for he can judge between good and evil. Adam as fallen had not the power to refuse the evil; the Christian has, and power too, to choose the good.

Rem. Conscience always connects itself with responsibility.

P.H.P. Does Romans 3 deal with man in his guilt simply?

J.T. Man was proved guilty, or subject to judgment before God. The reference, I think, is to a court of law. "We have before charged", the apostle says. We all know that courts of justice have reference to acts committed; not to what one is, although the latter may be in evidence by the facts presented.

Rem. That is emphasised with remarkable clearness in connection with the mercy-seat in the second section of chapter 3. There we see that even deeds in Old Testament days are all held up, as it were, waiting for the mercy-seat. That is, God held them in abeyance. It is the deeds that are in view not the state of the persons who do them.

J.T. That is how it reads, "whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood, for the showing forth of his righteousness, in respect of the passing by the sins that had taken place before, through the forbearance of God".

C.A.M. God is not going to judge a man for what he is but for what he has done.

J.T. A great point in the epistle is to vindicate God. He is righteous in whatever He does. These chapters are an immense relief to the enlightened conscience in regard to the evil that exists in all the different nations. These chapters show that there is not one item of sin that God is not taking account of, all is carefully noted down.

Rem. The Old Testament, which is cited here, shows that God is not really looking for the evil; He cannot help seeing it. In Psalm 14, "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God".

B.T.F. Is the great object of these opening chapters to bring the whole world in as guilty before God?

J.T. That is the point. "Now we know that whatever the things the law says, it speaks to those under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world be under judgment to God". It is very touching to see that God is looking for good, not evil. How eagerly He looks for the good!

C.A.M. We have had the philosopher and the heathen, we might say, but what about the Jew?

J.T. His mouth is closed as well. He is spoken of; "But if thou art named a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast in God, and knowest the will, and discerningly approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; and hast confidence that thou thyself art a leader of the blind, a light of those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and of truth in the law: thou then that teachest another, dost thou not teach thyself?" He gives a remarkable description of a typical legal Jew here. "Thou art named", he says, and then how that such an one is by the law condemned.

Rem. The end of all that was: "The name of God is blasphemed on your account among the nations". That was very terrible. They had been given a place of peculiar blessing and privilege; but the end was that there were blasphemies of God's name on their account. This made their sin the more enormous.

J.T. And then another principle is brought out at the end of chapter 2, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither that circumcision which is outward in flesh; but he is a Jew who is so inwardly; and circumcision, of the heart, in spirit, not in letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God". Wherever such an one is found, in the whole earth, he is a true Jew.

Rem. There was no such one found, was there?

J.T. Not as in the flesh. But we have been speaking of people like Job, like Rahab the harlot and Ruth, Cornelius and others. These were circumcised in heart and spirit; but then, they were the fruit of God's sovereign work.

Rem. Paul takes up that idea in Galatians 6:16. "As many as shall walk by this rule, peace upon them and mercy, and upon the Israel of God". It is a question of the heart.

B.P. You were saying that this section dealt with acts committed. Is not the state of man taken up later in the epistle?

J.T. It is; state is taken up formally from verse 12 of chapter 5 to the end of chapter 8. That which troubles a man first of all is not his state, but the sins he has committed.

B.T.F. Is the Jew referred to in chapter 3 a true Jew?

J.T. That is the nation. "What then is the superiority of the Jew? or what the profit of circumcision? Much every way: and first, indeed, that to them were entrusted the oracles of God". They had the oracles of God.

Rem. It is a historical fact to which he is alluding here -- the advantage they had on account of having the oracles of God. The Lord said to the woman of Samaria, "Ye worship ye know not what; we worship what we know, for salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22). The oracles of God are not connected with Christians. Peter says, "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God".

J.T. It gave an immense superiority to them over all the other nations that they had the oracles of God.

C.A.M. But it increased their responsibility.

B.P. What would become of one in heathendom who found God through what he saw in creation?

J.T. I think the book of Job is the light that God has graciously given as to what obtained in the, so-called, heathen world. He is not far from any one who feels after Him. He has His own way of taking care of them. If a sparrow does not fall on the ground without His attention, He will take care of all who feel after Him.

Rem. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25). What may be the manner of His workings in detail is another matter; but we know He will do right.

C.A.M. It is remarkable that Job had the light of resurrection. For instance, he said, "Then call, and I will answer" (Job 13:22). Would it be right to think he got the light of resurrection from creation?

Rem. There is a witness to it every autumn when the crops are gathered in. "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die" (1 Corinthians 15:36). Every incoming of life is a suggestion of resurrection. Even such a simple thing as lying down to sleep. When we lay ourselves down in the night we expect to rise in the morning.

Ques. Do you think Job lived immediately after the flood?

J.T. He may have been a contemporary of Abraham. At any rate, he had regard for the testimony presented to him. He feared God. But it was not until the end of the book that he said, "I know that thou canst do everything" (chapter 42:2). He learned that through what God said to him.

A.F.M. Do you think a man in a heathen country today could be converted by the testimony of creation?

J.T. The testimony now, of course, is Christ, who is presented in the gospel. God has His own way of meeting men in every circumstance. If there is genuine exercise God will send the gospel message, as we see in Cornelius; and He will set such an one

in relation to the saints too. I think the knowledge of God in our souls settles all these questions. Job says, "I know that thou canst do everything". God can connect a soul with the church wherever he may be found.

Rem. The Lord sent Philip to the eunuch.

J.T. If a sparrow does not fall on the ground without the Father -- mark that, it is not only without His knowledge, but without Him -- how much more would an enlightened heathen be cared for. Whoever and wherever he may be, God can take account of him and care for him in His own way.

Rem. The great thing for us is that we have divine principles, and "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?". When it comes to certain details we may not know just how God may act; but we know Him, and therefore we know He will act according to those principles.

READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (3)

Romans 4:1 - 25

J.T. It may be helpful to point out that chapter 3 from the 21st verse has reference to revelation, the word "manifested" being suggestive; whereas chapter 4 is more on the side of the believer, what he finds. The chapter opens with, "What shall we say then that Abraham our father according to flesh has found?". So that the two chapters, in that way, form a whole, one referring to what is for all, the other to what an individual has found.

C.A.M. The end of chapter 3 would be far greater than what we have in chapter 4; as you say, it is a question of what God is. Would you mind, in that connection, saying a word upon this righteousness of God which is revealed?

J.T. It has been called, His 'rights in mercy'. God has a right to be merciful; His nature really shines here. Paul in chapter 1 says, "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith". That would not refer to His rights in judgment but to His rights in mercy. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. It pleases Him to have mercy upon all as this epistle shows. So that "the righteousness of God" would refer to His rights in mercy, coming out in Christ, and dealing with sin in Christ, viewed as a vicarious offering. As it is said, "that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus". That kind of righteousness should appeal to us.

A.F.M. Hence it is introduced here so beautifully. God had a right to deal with man in judgment, but

He has taken up His rights in the way of mercy for the salvation of man.

J.T. Yes; and it is without the law. "Now without law righteousness of God is manifested, borne witness to by the law and the prophets; righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ towards all, and upon all those who believe". That is, perhaps, the most concise statement you could find of the gospel.

B.T.F. What does, "Borne witness to by the law and the prophets" refer to?

J.T. The types and general teaching in the law and in the prophets. We have been going over Exodus and Leviticus; for example, those books abound with references to the gospel as seen in the sacrifices and so on. The prophets, too, we know, abound with references to the same.

C.A.M. So in chapter 1 it says, "which he had before promised by his prophets in holy writings". The gospel was the subject of promise.

A.R.S. Is not one of the points in chapter 3 that man has his mouth stopped? There is no righteousness as far as man is concerned. Then God's righteousness is brought out and shines in all its grandeur, and it is on the ground of that that God blesses man.

J.T. "Without law righteousness of God". It does not say the righteousness of God; but that kind of righteousness.

Rem. God would have been perfectly righteous had He wiped out the whole scene and terminated it in judgment on account of sin; but He is also perfectly righteous when He presents Christ Jesus as a mercy-seat. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood". There is thus a point where He can bless and redeem, instead of removing. He is equally righteous; and His righteousness works that way.

J.T. He retains man.

Rem. Yes. He recovers him.

C.A.M. In chapter 1 the apostle says, "I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also". It is remarkable that he should wish to preach the gospel to the saints.

J.T. The saints at Rome evidently needed the moral foundation laid in their souls strengthened. This is also true of many at the present time. The gospel is not only to give us peace with God, but to establish us in regard to the world, and what is in it, because Christians are exposed to the world. The question is, are we to stand or be carried off our feet? At the present time nothing could be more essential to us than the knowledge of God, as presented in this epistle; for it is God as He is towards man in righteousness, and dealing with man as he is here, setting him up on this basis, so that he might stand here for God.

A.F.M. We then are able to justify God in the presence of all that is without.

J.T. The evil remains; but the light comes into our souls and sets us up here. We are constituted righteous and are made to live. I suppose these are the two great features on our side: righteousness and life.

Rem. The epistle to the Romans has very largely in view manifestation in the world to come.

A.N.W. Is your thought that Romans solves the problem of both trees -- the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the tree of life?

J.T. That is the idea. The believer is made righteous and yet retains his conscience and then, he lives. So there is perfect reconciliation of the two principles -- responsibility and life.

B.T.F. What is the force of, "by faith of Jesus Christ"?

J.T. I think it brings in the order of Man here. According to the reading, it is not faith in Him, or on Him; but, 'of Him'. It seems to me to suggest the light as to a new order of Man that the believer has in his soul. It is initial, but it lays the basis for what is to follow in this epistle, Colossians and Ephesians. Further on it says, "that he should be just, and justify him that is of the faith of Jesus".

Rem. We get there the point that is referred to in Titus 2:11, "For the grace of God which carries with it salvation for all men has appeared". It is universal, I mean, in its presentation. The only limitation is its acceptance. It is, "towards all, and upon all those who believe".

B.T.F. Does the expression "by faith of Jesus Christ" refer to man in responsibility?

J.T. I think, "faith of Jesus Christ", and "faith of Jesus" lay the basis in the soul for the new order of Man. God has in His mind the transference in our souls from what we are as in Adam to Christ. He is presented to us objectively, and in believing we get light, but then, light about the Man who did the will of God. That is a formative principle.

C.A.M. Would it be like the opening verses of chapter 1, "concerning his Son ... Jesus Christ our Lord"?

J.T. "Jesus Christ", or "Jesus" is the order of Man. "Christ Jesus" refers more to the anointed Man. So you will find in this epistle, when things are said to be in Him, it is "Christ Jesus"; but when things are said to be by Him, it is "Jesus Christ". It is Man.

Rem. In contrast to Adam.

J.T. Yes. Jesus Christ, who accomplished the will of God.

Rem. What we get here is really preparing for what we get at the end of chapter 5, that is, transference

from Adam to Christ. There it is said to be "by Jesus Christ our Lord".

Rem. Would you give us a thought as to the anointed Man?

J.T. The anointed Man has finished everything and has sat down. "God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36). There, I apprehend God has set Him in heaven, and exalted Him as the Head and Centre of everything. He is the Head of everything. All therefore, is in Him. But, if I look at Him down here, as a Man doing the will of God and going into death, it is "Jesus Christ".

A.F.M. How about the expression in verse 24, "through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God has set forth a mercy-seat"?

J.T. There it is again. Redemption is in Him; "Through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of his righteousness, in respect of the passing by the sins that had taken place before, through the forbearance of God; for the shewing forth of his righteousness in the present time, so that he should be just, and justify him that is of the faith of Jesus". It seems to me that the one who is "of the faith of Jesus" is the one who is to be justified; because God has in His mind a race of men like that Man.

Rem. It is "his grace" in verse 24, but "his righteousness" in verse 25.

J.T. I think the point in verse 25 is righteousness of God -- His rights in mercy, and the mercy-seat is the expression of it. It is there that God sets out what He is towards man, the point is, "whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood". The reference is to Leviticus 16. It is a question of what is on the throne of God, really. So

that it is set forth. I apprehend it is universal; Christ the mercy-seat is the centre of the universe, as it was in the tabernacle figuratively.

Rem. I think "mercy" and "grace" are never far separated. In Exodus 33 they are linked together: "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy". I hope we all understand the tremendous importance and blessing of this twenty-fifth verse. It is the basis for every one who enters into the sphere of God's eternal blessing. Everything that is for God comes to this point of contact, namely, the mercy-seat, "whom God has set forth". We get, set forth here, the rights of God to intervene in mercy, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, in virtue of His redeeming work. I think we scarcely apprehend the greatness of the thoughts contained in this verse. Every one who is in the sphere of blessing rests on what it presents.

J.T. The mercy-seat is the great central point of the whole moral system. God sets out in that Man, as having died (for it is a question of His blood here), His rights in mercy.

Rem. It is a throne. It is universal; the whole moral universe is centred there.

A.N.W. Why do you change the word to 'throne'?

Rem. In the holy of holies, over the mercy-seat rested the cherubim, which were expressive of the government of God. The government of God goes out through His mercy, through redemption; therefore the cherubim are viewed as contemplating the blood upon the mercy-seat. The idea of the mercy-seat is really a throne -- God enthroned in the midst of Israel, but in mercy through the blood.

J.T. It was a question of His sovereign rights. So the cherubim looked down on the mercy-seat. The blood of the victim was brought in and placed

there; God was vindicated in regard of the whole universe. If one gets that thought into one's soul it lays a wonderful basis.

T.H. Why is it here the "mercy-seat"; in Corinthians, "judgment-seat"; and in Revelation, "A great white throne"?

J.T. This, I think, is necessarily the greatest of all; because it is a question of the whole universe and God setting Himself in relation to it in righteousness. How wonderful that He could do that! But the study of Leviticus 16 enables us to see how it has all been accomplished -- that the blood of Christ was efficacious, as under the eye of God, for the whole universe. So every one who now is, "of the faith of Jesus" -- of that Man, is justified. And God is also justified in Him, "so that he should be just, and justify him that is of the faith of Jesus". The mercy-seat here is the great central point in the whole moral system. God puts Himself, in the eyes of all, as just in regard to the passing by of sins. As it says, "In respect of the passing by the sins that had taken place before, through the forbearance of God; for the shewing forth of his righteousness in the present time, so that he should be just". He waited all these years and in so doing exposed Himself to attack, looking on to the time of the incarnation and death of Christ, when He would be justified. And now that Christ has died He is justified in the eyes of the universe in regard of sins. That is the point here. Every one, who is "of the faith of Jesus" is linked up with God on that principle. So one can see how the thing is developed on the principle of faith before we get any mention of the Spirit or love. Here it is a question of linking the soul with God in righteousness.

Now, when you come to 2 Corinthians 5, things are more limited. Because it is not a question of the universe; it is rather a question of adjustment,

so that there should be a final adjustment in regard of the course of every christian. Every detail of the life has to be gone into and judged. So everything is seen according to God. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad". It is a question of adjusting my life in flesh; whether before or after conversion, my whole life has to be gone into there finally.

W.L.P. Even if one has judged his course here, has it to be reviewed there too?

J.T. Yes. The believer has to be brought into line with God there, and will be there as wholly apart from the evil done; but enabled there to judge all as God has judged it. In regard of the "great white throne", first of all, the very term "white" shows that it is against sin. It is a question of sin; so the earth and the heaven flee away. "I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled". It is not now God's rights in mercy; there is nothing to draw or attract here. In the mercy-seat, there is everything to attract; the conscience is set free and drawn to God as known in grace therein; but the great white throne repels evil, even the heavens and the earth are not pure in His sight; they flee. It is a question of God's holiness. The dead, great and small, stand before the throne and are judged out of the things written in the books, and then those not found written in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. There is a search made in the book of life but only to make certainty doubly certain. There is no thought of mercy in the great white throne.

Rem. What is set forth in the character of God in the mercy-seat at the present time becomes the test for those who had rejected the gospel when before the great white throne. For, if that character had

been responded to, there would have been no occasion on the part of such for the great white throne.

J.T. Evil is put into its own place at the great white throne; but, at the present time, God is showing forth His righteousness in justifying the sinner through the blood of Christ. This is what He delights in.

C.A.M. Its being the great central point is very beautiful. Every man in that way may have to say to God direct.

J.T. It is not inside the veil now. It is set forth. It is presented to all, but can be apprehended on the principle of faith only. First, you have, "whom God has set forth a mercy-seat". Then, "for the shewing forth of his righteousness". It is a question of God vindicating Himself.

Rem. I like to hear a preacher emphasising the rights of God in forgiving sins.

J.T. Some of us were speaking of this dispensation as being marked by sitting. And, I think, the point is that God rests in certain conditions. Hebrews emphasizes that Christ, having completed redemption, "sat down ... at the right hand of God". It is like Numbers 9. The tabernacle might rest "two days or a month, or a year". I think we are now in the year. God rests now in Christ, presenting Him to men in the gospel.

Rem. It is the preaching of "the acceptable year of the Lord".

J.T. The Lord is said to have sat down in Luke 4. It says, "He closed the book ... and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears". The mercy-seat is before the eyes of the universe, and it is for us to be attracted to it. The Lord spoke of "the acceptable year" -- the longest period of measured time, in that way.

A.F.M. It has been the longest period. There were different ages before Christ: "But now once in the consummation of the ages he has been manifested for the putting away of sin by his sacrifice". And has brought in this wondrous year.

Rem. From now on everything is marked by finality. The mercy-seat is final, the judgment-seat is final, the great white throne is final.

J.T. Chapter 4, in the light of all this wonderful setting forth of God, is what a man finds. The opening of the chapter gives the key. "What shall we say then that Abraham ... has found?".

Rem. I suppose David is brought in in the same way. Abraham illustrates what is found on the principle of faith. David speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God reckons righteousness without works.

B.T.F. Would you emphasise "before God"?

J.T. Yes; for you do not want anything except that which is before God. Abraham had much cattle, silver and gold, but these are not referred to here. What did he find? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Now to him that works the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but of debt: but to him who does not work, but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness". So that he is justified.

C.A.M. Is your thought that we should raise the inquiry in our own minds as to what we have found?

J.T. Yes. What one has found in the light of all this. We have found righteousness -- the righteousness of God.

C.A.M. Chapter 4 is all on our side.

J.T. Chapter 3 is largely a question of justifying God; but chapter 4 presents our justification; "who

has been delivered for our offences and has been raised for our justification".

C.A.M. He found the seal of it too.

J.T. Yes, circumcision. The seal of the righteousness which he had on the principle of faith.

Rem. It signified the application of death.

J.T. Yes, and I think the Spirit. "The Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect" (Genesis 17:1). That raised a question not only of His righteousness but of His power. I think chapter 4 implies God's power. That is what Abraham came to. Typically he came to the realisation of the power of God. So he received the sign of circumcision which meant that there was no power in the flesh to effect anything for God; but what takes the place of that in the believer now is the Spirit.

C.A.M. Was there something special in the mind of the Spirit in referring to these two men, Abraham and David?

Rem. Abraham shines forth as an illustration of the response to the call of God and as living on the principle of faith, hence, he is introduced as the father of all those who believe. David was marked by transgressions, and so he becomes an illustration of the blessedness of such an one whose transgressions are covered: Compare Psalm 51.

READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (4)

Romans 5:1 - 21

J.T. In dwelling on chapter 5 it is important to bear in mind that chapter 4 emphasises the "principle of faith". The principle of faith is seen throughout the book, we know, but chapter 4 seems to emphasise it as coming in after the mercy-seat. There is a point or two in chapter 4 to which it might be well to refer. It says in verses 13 - 17, "For it was not by law that the promise was to Abraham, or to his seed, that he should be heir of the world, but by righteousness of faith. For if they which are of law be heirs, faith is made vain, and the promise made of no effect. For law works wrath; but where no law is neither is there transgression. Therefore it is on the principle of faith, that it might be according to grace, in order to the promise being sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of Abraham's faith, who is father of us all, (according as it is written, I have made thee father of many nations)". It seems to me that we should pay especial attention to chapter 4 in that way; it is a sort of pivotal chapter from our side -- from the side of apprehension and appropriation. The light of chapter 3 being so wonderful, and then the blessings flowing therefrom in chapter 5 being also so wonderful, it is of great importance that attention should be paid to chapter 4 as showing how things are appropriated.

B.T.F. You were pointing out the importance of Abraham finding.

J.T. That is how chapter 4 begins. "What shall we say then that Abraham our father ... has found?" Being the father of believers, his history is dwelt upon in chapter 4.

Rem. Abraham is "the father of all them that believe", and the "father of many nations". He comes in upon the principle of faith, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness".

J.T. "Father of many nations" is really in the light of resurrection. God said, when he appeared to Abram, "I am the Almighty God"; and changed Abram's name in the light of that revelation. Abraham could be a progenitor through the power of God only. He believed in the power of God. He believed not only that God could justify, but that He could quicken the dead.

Rem. Two great points come out in chapter 4, righteousness reckoned in the light of a God who raises the dead and transgressions covered as shown in David.

B.T.F. There is faith as exercised, and there is the "principle of faith". Perhaps you would say a word regarding those two.

J.T. The principle of faith is that on which God has set things; it is the ground on which divine blessings are administered now. It is the principle on which justification is based. It is, "on the principle of faith, to faith". But we have another thought added here. "Therefore it is on the principle of faith, that it might be according to grace". It is on that principle as established by God that it might be according to grace, for law is not of faith.

Rem. So there is a contrast suggested, when the principle of faith comes in, with what had been before, that is, law. "For the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ". I suppose in the Old Testament these principles were enunciated. We have a proof of it in Habakkuk 2:4: "the just shall live by his faith". But it waited for the manifestation of the mercy-seat; now

we see that God would bring in everything on that basis.

J.T. Grace and truth subsisting in Christ gives, one might say, the character of the present dispensation. "For the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ". Grace and truth go together in the Person of Christ -- they form one idea in the mind of God. The verb is in the singular in order to emphasise that there is one indissoluble idea set forth in Christ -- that of grace and truth, not truth alone but grace and truth.

Rem. There is a suggestion here in Abraham and David being brought in that, really, there was no change in the actings of God. He acted with Abraham and David on the ground of grace as His sovereign prerogative, notwithstanding that in David's day the law existed. His workings were always on that line. None in Old Testament times were brought into blessing on the basis of the law; all were brought in on the principle of grace and truth.

B.T.F. Would you say that where there is faith in the soul there is the accepting of things which cannot be substantiated other than by the Word of God?

J.T. That is the point. We know the definition given in Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is the substantiating of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen".

B.T.F. When you touch on the principle of faith, it leads on to things that are not seen; but are substantiated by God's word.

J.T. In that way the support of faith is not evident; the natural mind is incapable of understanding what faith lays hold of.

W.L.P. We see more than faith in Stephen's case.

J.T. It developed to sight.

Rem. That was in the power of the Holy Spirit. "But being full of the Holy Spirit, having fixed his

eyes on heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God" (Acts 7:55).

J.T. Abraham here is a great model for believers. Indeed, inasmuch as he is formally called our father, it is well that he should be studied in that regard.

W.B. Is his faith in the end of chapter 4 what you would call advanced faith?

J.T. The faith of Genesis 15 is the faith that believes in the God who justifies; regarding which it says here, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness". Genesis 17 is an advance on that. God not only justifies but quickens. So in chapter 4:17 we have, "The God whom he believed, who quickens the dead". I need not only to be justified, but quickened. So that Genesis 17 is an advance on chapter 15.

Rem. It is interesting to see that in Hebrews 11 there is still another advance. There it is connected with Isaac. "By faith Abraham ... offered up Isaac ... accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure". He reckoned God was able to give Isaac back to him from the dead.

J.T. It is a great thing, in that way, to have a right model; if Scripture sets one before us as in Abraham, we should study the model. It helps us in the history of our souls to see how faith worked in a man of like passions as ourselves.

Rem. I think the Lord emphasises that when He calls attention to Himself, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad". That, I think, is further light as to the principle of faith. Abraham could not naturally see Christ; but in the light of the revelation from God he embraced it, he exulted in it. He was really in the light of the world to come.

W.B. Does faith here in the end of this chapter embrace the world to come?

Rem. F.E.R. used to tell us that this was in view of the world to come.

W.B. I was thinking of the expression we find here, "that he should be heir of the world".

J.T. Faith would scarcely stop short of the full, divine thought, however imperfectly he might apprehend the full bearing of the world to come. Each man of faith had it in some sense before him, otherwise he must have been living in the world of sight, which was not so.

C.A.M. In that sense faith would imply another world.

J.T. I think so. Faith looks on to a world that is "not seen as yet", but which will ultimately come into display.

Ques. Is that also true of those saints before Abraham, those who had faith?

J.T. I think so. It is said of Enoch that he prophesied saying, "Behold, the Lord has come amidst his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all" (Jude 14,15).

Ques. What then was the difference between them and Abraham?

J.T. One difference is that before the flood there was no call out of the world. Abraham was called out of it so that he is, strictly, the father of all believers, because believers are essentially called ones, called out of the world. And of Abraham it is said that he looked for things, that is, he got impressions in his soul and looked for their verification or accomplishment.

A.N.W. Do you think it would suggest that the world had reached a stage of darkness which had not been before?

J.T. I think that Satan had not acquired the place in the world before the flood that he did afterwards. Also that through the introduction of the element of government in Noah a place opened up to

Satan in that relation; hence the political development which followed: first, centralisation as seen in Babel; then, imperial power as seen in Nimrod. All this, and other things, developed idolatry, of which we hear nothing before the flood. Satan evidently acquired greater power after the flood, he intruded himself into the minds of men and idolatry developed. So Abram was a worshipper of idols; but God has His own thoughts. It says, "The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia", where he was still in his own surroundings, and said, "Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred". The political idea is put first -- that of patriotism -- he is to leave his country; then his kindred, and then, "Come into the land which I shall shew thee". It is a call; and we Christians, in that way, are the children of Abraham because we have faith according to his faith.

A.N.W. We feel that our faith is severely tested today. It is in just such a day that God would look for faith.

Rem. I think it helps on that line to see that no empire has ever succeeded which has not been backed by the religious power. No doubt the principle of idolatry supported the governing powers in Abraham's country; in breaking from his country he had to break from his religion. I think it may be seen all through that the political power is allied, for its support, with the spiritual power of evil; so it takes all that is in a man to separate from the world; politically, socially and religiously. I was struck by a remark made, that faith is in view of the world to come. I believe, in some form or other, faith has always the world to come in view.

J.T. "The God of glory" -- in what those words convey, the world that God has in mind is all bound up. In Genesis 14 we have two groups of kings fighting one with another; and there is "Abram the

Hebrew", as it says, set over against them. These two groups would undoubtedly represent the political interests of the world -- the contending interests, as we have it today -- but there is a third party, that is, "Abram the Hebrew". I suppose, the word 'Hebrew' there does not signify what it did in Saul's mouth (1 Samuel 13:3); that was the natural way of looking at them for Jacob's name had long been changed; but in Genesis it is, "Abram the Hebrew", possibly alluding to the fact that he was not of that country; he was distinctly apart, but was marked by brotherly affections. "And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan" (Genesis 14:14). There was an institution at the command of that man of faith and by itself; but it was on the principle of faith, it would not be employed in worldly political interests, not on either side; but to rescue a brother.

Rem. The only intervention was to rescue a brother.

C.A.M. You would say the world to come comes into view in Melchisedec.

J.T. The thought of the world to come follows on that incident. Melchisedec comes in and blesses Abram. We know, from the setting of Scripture, that the title "Most High God" and "Melchisedec" refer to the millennial day.

A.N.W. Where would Abram have stood in regard of chapter 13 of Romans?

J.T. You remember, he recognised the king of Sodom. I think he was very deferential to the rulers of the land. He did not revolt against them in any way. He waited God's time. It was said to him that, "The iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full" (Genesis 15:16). He humbly waited, but he had the light in his soul of the inheritance. When Lot separated

from him the Lord said to him, "Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it" (Genesis 13:14,15). He had the light of the inheritance in his soul; but he recognised the king of Sodom and also the sons of Heth in a later period. He was deferential to the rights of each.

Ques. How far does Romans 5 bring a believer?

J.T. I think it shows what is available -- the great things which accrue to the believer -- to the one that has the faith outlined in chapter 4. After so much has been said about Abraham's faith, it is said, "Now it was not written on his account alone that it was reckoned to him, but on ours also, to whom, believing on him who has raised from among the dead Jesus our Lord, who has been delivered for our offences and has been raised for our justification, it will be reckoned. Therefore having been justified on the principle of faith, we have peace towards God through our Lord Jesus Christ". Then the Spirit of God gives an outline of the great things that accrue to us, the blessings that are available at the present time.

Ques. After Romans 7 do we come back to chapter 5?

J.T. Chapter 5 is from God's side. It sets before us objectively what is available. Of course, the apostle speaks as if he were in the gain of it and enjoyed it individually, yet he speaks in the plural, showing it is characteristically true of christians to enjoy these things; but they are presented as the great result of the gospel, and as available to every believer.

B.T.F. The thought in justification is that it is before God, is it not? Not before men; it has in view the manifestation.

J.T. Clearly. It is a question of being justified in view of another sphere. It is "the God of glory" who has established a new world and it is a question of my being suited for it. But, in regard of responsibility here, you have forgiveness and the consciousness of it; but, even as to that, you cannot show any one you have it. You have the witness of the Spirit that you are forgiven; but what you are concerned about is that you should have a place in that world in the presence of God.

Rem. Referring to our brother's question, as to how far Romans 5 brings a believer, I suppose it includes reconciliation. It brings us to the point where the prodigal son is kissed.

J.T. It is Luke 15 in that sense, because "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit". Just as the father impressed upon the son the love he had for him, so the Spirit impresses upon our hearts the love God has for us.

Rem. Luke 15 really helps to unfold this chapter.

J.T. Take verse 11: it says, "And not only that, but we are making our boast in God, through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom now we have received the reconciliation". I was thinking of the expression, the reconciliation. It is presented as an element of the testimony to be received in this chapter. I apprehend I am to be reconciled according to Corinthians; but here "the reconciliation" is presented as an element of the testimony because it refers to man being before God in Christ to God's pleasure; that is the reconciliation.

A.N.W. Is it forgiveness in Luke 15?

J.T. The prodigal said, "I have sinned against heaven and before thee". He acknowledged his sins. Now the kiss of the father undoubtedly involved forgiveness, without it being said; but there was more than that. He says, to his servants, "Bring out the best robe and clothe him in it, and put a ring on

his hand and sandals on his feet; and bring the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and make merry: for this my son was dead and has come to life, was lost and has been found. And they began to make merry". I have no doubt that that is the reconciliation. It is not only that the Jews will have God's laws put into their hearts, and written in their minds; but the christian is after the heavenly. Reconciliation involves the second Man. "The first man out of the earth, made of dust; the second man, out of heaven" (1 Corinthians 15:47). While there will be a representation of Christ in the Jew on the earth in the millennium, he does not fully answer to what God had in His mind about man. He had Christ in mind and Christ is said to be, "the second man, out of heaven". You have to go the full length to get the divine thought. The Jew is not out of heaven: he is not even intended for it; although there will be in that nation a representation of Christ, that is, God's laws put into their hearts and written in their minds, and therefore they will love God and their neighbour; but the second Man is out of heaven. "As we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly" (verse 49). That is the full, divine thought as regards the mind of God.

Rem. Verse 10 of this chapter gives us reconciliation as individually presented, "reconciled to God by the death of his Son"; but in verse 11 we reach the point of 2 Corinthians 5, "the ministry of reconciliation". But it is not developed here as it is in that epistle.

J.T. I see the full bearing of the truth of the gospel presented in this chapter for our appropriation. It is, so to say, hung up for our view. It is in Christ. So we get a list of things all hung up before us and to be appropriated.

J.S. You are brought on to a sort of vantage ground here.

A.N.W. You cannot go beyond this.

J.T. As regards the gospel. But you have not the ministry of the church here. You have the ministries of the gospel and the church in Colossians. As far as the ministry of the gospel goes, you cannot exceed what is presented in this chapter. The second half of the chapter is also part of the gospel, that is, "eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". The second half also enlarges upon the much more, the excess of things: what was in Christ in contrast to what was brought in through Adam.

Rem. Really, there is reached a climax here. You cannot, in a way, go beyond it. You reach reconciliation. Then, there is a turning back, as it were, and a taking the truth up on another line, that is, the life line!

J.T. In 2 Samuel 8 you have lines for life and death. David measured with two lines for death and one full line for life. Now, I think, this chapter is the life line. The law would be the lines to death -- that would measure us all for death; but this chapter (Christ having died for us, and living now) is the life line for us -- the "much more". It is not only that I shall live; I shall reign in life by the One, Jesus Christ. "Much rather shall those who receive the abundance of grace ... reign in life by the one Jesus Christ".

J.S. The two lines are here clearly: "death passed upon all men" and "reign in life by the one".

C.A.M. It says, "being enemies, we have been reconciled to God". It is not in the sense that we are reconciled enemies, is it?

J.T. It is that grace has abounded over enmity, and now being reconciled we are saved by Christ's life. You would not deny you were an enemy once. Romans shows that the man who was an enemy is now reconciled. The epistle shows how things have taken place on earth. The idea of new creation

scarcely enters into Romans. It rather shows God's greatness, and how He has triumphed; that in spite of our being enemies, we have been reconciled to Himself.

A.N.W. But it was not the same prodigal son.

J.T. We know that from the epistles; but Luke 15 is to establish what God is in Christ, and it corresponds with the early part of Romans. It is the grace side -- how grace acts; how God can rise above all the rebellion of man's heart. It is the "much more" line. This epistle shows how great God is morally. Notwithstanding what I have been, God reconciles me. He justifies the ungodly, "in due time Christ died for the ungodly". "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him". That thought is carried all through -- the triumph of grace. This chapter shows what God is; that is the first great feature of the gospel. After this it is a question of what one is in oneself; then, one learns very bitterly what is there.

Rem. Up to the end of verse 11 it is what man has done -- the apples on the tree. After this it becomes a question of the tree itself -- the root and the nature that produces the fruit.

T.H. Why is the new covenant not mentioned?

J.T. It is involved in the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, and "God commends his love to us". Why should He commend His love, seeing it is so great in itself? Yet He does. All these things are to show the moral greatness of God. It is not simply His power in raising Jesus from the dead but His moral greatness; He commends His love to us.

A.N.W. And it was, "while we were yet sinners".

J.T. I think it is very affecting in that God should go to the pains of commending His love to us.

W.B. How do you apply reconciliation in the millennium? You do not get a new man there.

J.T. God's laws will be put into their minds, and written in their hearts, they will love God and their neighbour; but they come short of, "the second man, out of heaven". Therefore, there is no idea of that continuing eternally. God triumphs in it as regards His promises, but the national idea does not continue. Finally it is simply -- God and men.

Rem. Israel entering into the world to come is regarded as new; but short of the heavenly Man. So it is Israel without guile. Jesus said of Nathanael, "Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile" (John 1:47).

J.T. They do not go inside the veil. It is a provisional state of things, God showing that He can retain a nation like Israel here on earth. He does not have to destroy the nation. According to Ezekiel 36, He says, "I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean ...", so that they can become morally according to Christ, and yet they come short of Luke 15. But mark, the elder son might have gone in, but he was angry and would not go in. The Jews could have gone in on the day of Pentecost, but there was only one day of Pentecost. It is not simply that the Holy Spirit comes upon us, as in the millennium; according to our chapter He sheds abroad in our hearts the love of God.

H.L. Has faith no place with the Jew then?

J.T. In Leviticus 16, which rightly fits in with Romans, we have one bullock and two goats. There is only one bullock -- meaning that there is only one for christians, and nothing for sight. Whereas there were two goats. The blood of the bullock and of one goat was carried into the holiest of all; but the other goat is seen going into the wilderness bearing the confessed sins of the people -- they see the goat go away. The Jews will see Christ when He returns without their sins. When they see Him they

will know their sins have been borne away; but we do not wait for that. We have the Holy Spirit who witnesses to us that our sins and iniquities are remembered no more. The Jew will be blessed on the principle of sight; but the Lord says, "Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed". There can be no doubt that the remnant in Revelation will have a measure of reconciliation; but they will not have the best robe on, although they learn a heavenly song, nor will they have the enjoyment of things we now have. The remnant will cling to certain hopes; but they will not have the Spirit, as we, therefore they do not go within, nor do they get the best robe; but He shall appear to those that look for Him, without sin for salvation. They look for Him and see Him.

Rem. They will appreciate chapters 9 - 11 of this book as seeing the link in the ways of God. They will glean a great deal from the New Testament, no doubt.

Ques. At the end of the millennium, when the Lord delivers up the kingdom to God, what becomes of the Jew?

J.T. We might be free to say this: they merge with the men who are alluded to in Revelation 21:3, "the tabernacle of God is with men".

Rem. There is a significant verse in Ephesians 3, "of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named". It leaves a wide scope for even the eternal day. Romans, as often pointed out, treats of God's ways on the earth, hence, the nation of Israel is taken account of there, but not in Colossians or Ephesians.

C.A.M. One of the difficulties in one's own mind is as to how things are taken care of at the time of transition -- when "the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements, burning with heat, shall be dissolved, and the earth and the works in it shall be burnt up" -- how it is that men, who have

been accustomed to live in flesh and blood condition here, shall be taken care of and changed to participate in what is wholly spiritual, that is, in the eternal state?

J.T. That is undisclosed. But we can well understand how God can change them as He will us when the Lord comes. The knowledge of God in our souls settles all such difficulties.

B.T.F. "As sin has reigned in the power of death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".

J.T. The great question of life was intended by God to be settled and the second part of this chapter shows how it is abundantly settled -- not only do we live; but we "reign in life by the one Jesus Christ". Grace also reigns through righteousness, "even as sin has reigned in the power of death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". In that way God shows His complete victory.

Ques. Would that be connected with those in the millennium?

J.T. It looks on to it, but this epistle up to chapter 8 is for christians; it is what we hold on the principle of faith. It will not be enjoyed in the millennium as we have it. No matter what we have, it is the best.

Ques. Will eternal life be the same to the Jew as it is to us?

J.T. The indwelling Spirit necessarily constitutes a difference with us. The Spirit is the power by which we enjoy eternal life. Whereas, they will enjoy it as death is removed from them. We enjoy it in spite of the fact that death remains here.

J.S. "Even as sin has reigned in the power of death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Reigning here is in the sense of complete victory.

READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (5)

Romans 6:1 - 23

Rem. It was suggested last time that we should have a word or two as to the advantage in the change of headship from Adam to Christ. The deliverance we get in that way is most important to understand. "By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death" -- God's way out is through another Man, and such an One. It is to the end that "grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life".

J.T. It forms in that way a turning point. The heart is drawn to that one Man, a necessity for whom existed from the outset. There is a great need of one man now, but the world is not prepared to make room for the true One. This chapter shows that all depends on Him, and that He has solved the question of righteousness and life.

A.N.W. In this chapter the Lord is spoken of as "Christ Jesus", in the fifth as "Jesus Christ".

J.T. I was going to remark in regard to that that the form of the expression alters in this chapter, it is "in Christ Jesus", whereas in the fifth it is "through Jesus Christ". The thought of the Man is prominent, I think, in the expression "Jesus Christ", and that of the anointing in the expression "Christ Jesus". "Jesus Christ" would be in accordance with your thought, the "One man" by whom things are brought to pass; here the great problem of righteousness and life is manifestly solved.

Rem. Divine intervention is indicated as soon as the ruin comes in, for Adam was a figure of Him that was to come. God was not taken unawares; He had a Man before Him. Now this Man is brought into view here, and the blessed fact of

transference from Adam to that Man, Jesus Christ. He is also indicated as Lord "through Jesus Christ our Lord".

J.T. The heart rests, it seems to me, in the expression in verse 15, "the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many".

C.A.M. How do you understand the words, "much rather"?

J.T. I think it suggests the abundance of things as compared with what Adam brought in. "Much rather" in this chapter suggests the abundance of the result come into the world through Christ.

C.A.M. In what way do you mean abundance?

J.T. Look at verse 17, "Much rather shall those who receive the abundance of grace, and of the free gift of righteousness". Notice the expression, "reign in life", not only live, but "reign in life by the one Jesus Christ". And so in verses 20 and 21 "Where sin abounded grace has overabounded, in order that, even as sin has reigned in the power of death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life".

A.N.W. It is not only one Man, but "much more" by Him; and it is for all.

J.T. Quite so; and what suggests it is the moral question involved, that of good and evil; it could not at all be solved through Adam even though he had remained in obedience. He could not have solved the great question of good and evil. This involved the attributes of God, all of which were infinitely satisfied and harmonised in Christ.

Rem. The consequence flowing from Adam's deed is not only met, but God is glorified in respect of it, and there is a wondrous excess of grace; it reigns through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ.

J.T. I think an examination of the Scriptures which treat of the divine attributes, such as righteousness, faithfulness, and you might say, love, will show that they enter into the abundance, the much more. The wonderful excess therefore is the result of what God is as revealed in Christ. It is therefore infinite.

Rem. Is that not the basis of the question raised at the beginning of chapter 6? Sin abounding has brought out a marvellous excess of the grace of God.

J.T. The question, "Should we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" is the point of view of the natural mind. How absolutely wanting in moral conceptions is the natural mind! That thought must be banished for ever out of the world in which these wonderful thoughts apply. The puny mind of man must be shut out when dealing with the thoughts of God; "Far be the thought", says the apostle.

B.T.F. When is God's thought, expressed in the last verse of chapter 5, reached: "So also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life"?

J.T. I suppose the conditions required for it began with the presence of the Spirit here, on the ground of accomplished righteousness. The conditions of eternal life became effective then.

B.T.F. What is the sense of "to" -- through righteousness to eternal life?

J.T. Eternal life is the result of the reigning. Sin reigned unto death, and so grace reigns unto life.

Rem. It is the wonderful consequence of the change of head. We do not make enough of the gain we have in our new Head. The result is wonderful!

W.L.P. Say a word about headship -- just exactly what it is; our minds do not grasp it at once.

J.T. I think headship is introduced here in principle and on moral grounds. In Colossians it is introduced on personal grounds, and in Ephesians

on the grounds of sovereignty -- "gave him to be head". In Colossians He is Head because of what He is personally. Here it is what He is morally -- because He has glorified God in respect of sin through His obedience.

Rem. The need existed, and any one who could meet it would necessarily be head. The need was expressed throughout the Old Testament, but no one came forward. Christ brings in what is moral; but what He is in His creatorial right is seen in Colossians.

W.L.P. The expression "Jesus Christ" in this chapter is connected with what is moral?

J.T. Yes, and it is important to see that, because it shows how the Lord acquires a place in our souls -- that which is His right; and what God is as revealed in Him.

Rem. In Hebrews 2 He is brought in as Head, all things put under Him, but we do not get this in the chapter before us.

J.T. His headship is a fixed thing in your soul after a right understanding of Romans.

B.T.F. "What then shall we say? Should we continue in sin ... ?" Open out the bearing of this for us.

J.T. It is the suggestion of the natural mind, which is entirely devoid of moral conception. There is a great moral defect in the mind of the person who asks such a question. The question shows that sin has not been judged in the one who raises it, and the apostle meets it by, "Far be the thought", and proceeds to reason it out. The apostle in writing to the Romans reasons things out and enforces the truth on moral lines.

Rem. As an illustration, I heard of a priest who influenced Russia a year or two ago, who taught that the more men sinned the more they glorified God, because they thus furnished occasion for the grace

of God. That is the question raised here. If the grace of God is so magnified by sin, we should go on sinning. The apostle meets that, he says it is forever impossible because sin brought Christ into death and He died to it.

J.T. "We who have died to sin, how shall we still live in it?". It is a question for the soul, and if one has the moral element there, he answers to it.

B.T.F. Our souls are in bondage until we are wholly free from sin.

J.T. To meet the question the apostle introduces the teaching of baptism. God said, "Out of Egypt have I called my son" (Matthew 2:15). That is God's affection for the Son; but the believer (who is also a son) has to ask, why it is that he has to leave Egypt; so that baptism is the great issue of this chapter, and the apostle opens up the truth of it here (see verses 4,5). If you compare baptism in this chapter with the teaching based on it in Colossians, I think you will see that here we are regarded as dead to sin, whereas in Colossians as dead from it. In Romans the christian is here in the presence of sin, but the death of Christ is between him and it, it is a constant daily exercise; whereas in Colossians it is "from the elements of the world"; the believer faces heaven in Colossians.

Rem. 2 Corinthians 4:10,11 would run somewhat on these lines -- "always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body; for we who live are always delivered unto death on account of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh" -- the constant daily application of the death of Christ.

P.H.P. Baptism places one in a certain position, but is there not power to maintain it?

J.T. The Holy Spirit is the power. In Colossians your face is heavenward and your life is hid. But

here it is "newness of life"; we should walk in newness of life. The life of Jesus should be manifested in our bodies. In Romans christians are before the eyes of the world; whereas in Colossians our backs are to it, and we are going to heaven.

C.A.M. The type of baptism in Romans is the Red Sea, that in Colossians is Jordan.

J.T. In the latter you are going out of the world, but in Romans you bring in the death of Christ by baptism; as maintaining this you are saved from the influence of sin.

P.H.P. As baptised you change your position into the wilderness; Colossians leads into the land.

J.T. The Spirit carefully avoids saying we are raised in Romans. But we are said to be in Colossians.

Rem. In Colossians you are indifferent to public gaze, to the estimate that may be formed of you in the world; your life is hid. It is a question of heavenly life and heavenly privilege.

J.T. Colossians enables us to enter into assembly privileges because we are really on the platform of our own resurrection with Christ on the principle of faith. In Romans it is only that we "shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection".

C.A.M. It suggests you are a different man from what you were without defining fully what you are; the emphasis is on the fact that you "should walk in newness of life".

Rem. A different man from what you were, but in the same sphere, and liable to be affected by the same things, so the death of Christ is the preservative.

A.N.W. Baptism brings in the lordship of Christ, for it is in His name.

J.T. Yes, but the emphasis here is that it is to His death -- "as many as have been baptised ... unto his death".

Rem. We are not baptised to Jesus as a living Man on earth, but to Him as having died, and so it is to His death; hence there is to be a walk in newness of life. If it had been 'unto Jesus Christ' and stopped there, it might well have been turned to all sorts of imitation of the life of Jesus in the flesh, the natural man attempting an imitation of Him, therefore the whole emphasis is on the fact that it is "unto his death".

J.T. Baptism "unto his death" should be emphasised; it subverts the whole idea held in christendom. There christianity is adapted to the world, and baptism is the outward sign of it; but there is no practical recognition of the bearing of the death of Christ. What is insisted on in this chapter is that baptism is to His death.

W.B-w. The eunuch arrived at it when he came to the scripture, "His life is taken from the earth" (Acts 8:33).

J.T. He would die too! He would be baptised and so identify himself with Christ's death.

Ques. Has He a claim on us through His death? are we to recognise Him as Lord?

J.T. I do not know that it is so much a question of the lordship of Christ in this chapter, although the blessing is said to be "through Jesus Christ our Lord"; it presses home on the mind the import of His death so that sin should not reign in your mortal body. "Reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body to obey its lusts. Neither yield your members instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but yield yourselves to God as alive from among the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God". In Romans God has come in in Christ, and His moral title to us is established. God has come to us through the death of Christ, and we are brought to Him in Christ. I am for God in the wilderness. My members are to be instruments of

righteousness to God. He would have the practice of righteousness here, and this result is reached through the body of the believer.

Rem. Very touching to see that fruit comes in: "Ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end eternal life".

C.A.M. How are we to use our physical members in relation to God?

J.T. The whole man is set up on the ground of redemption, so that my members are to be for God. All my members are held for God's service.

Rem. We get that illustrated in the cleansing of the leper in Leviticus 14. There is the blood in connection with the ear, the hand, and the foot. What the ear receives, what the hand does and where the foot takes -- all is in relation to God.

J.T. The whole man is in that way secured for God. The application of the oil to the cleansed leper afterwards would show that the believer is to be governed by the Spirit in his activities. In chapter 8 of our epistle, it is said that the Spirit is "life on account of righteousness".

T.A. Man, once lost, is thus fully recovered to God.

Rem. We see this in Paul at Damascus. The same mouth through which he breathed out threatenings and slaughter against the people of the Lord is immediately occupied in announcing that Jesus is the Son of God.

B.T.F. "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body". Say a word on that.

J.T. That is our responsibility. We have to hold the house now for God. I am referring to Ecclesiastes 12 -- the house is a figure that Solomon used to describe the whole body: he describes the different organs, as you might say; there he is referring to dissolution, but here it is the believer's body, as alive on earth that is in view.

Rem. So that as being made free from sin, to admit it again would be like letting an intruder in; we would not let a burglar into our house and welcome him, so that henceforth sin is an intruder to be kept out.

J.T. Sin may, alas, gain an entrance at times, but certainly it is not to be allowed to reign.

T.A. The body of sin is annulled.

J.T. Quite, that is the totality of it. It is annulled for the believer. We do not undertake to set evil aside in the world, but we will not allow it in our body. Sin in this chapter is what is in the world, not as in chapter 7 working in our members. The legislators of the world little realise what they have to contend with: they cannot really cope with sin, it is too strong. All the legislation from Noah to the present time has not remedied it. The reign of Christ alone can solve it. When God's "judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness" (Isaiah 26:9). God has given assurance to all as to this in that He has raised Jesus from the dead. I cannot remedy sin in the world, but I can remedy it in my own body. I am not going to let it reign there, so that the body of the believer is an instrument of righteousness for God. The bearing of the crucifixion of "our old man" is therefore effective in the believer, although sin remains in the world as before. Sin has power as the old man is recognised. Statesmen do not see this, so continue their efforts to improve the world.

Rem. No matter how perfect the legislation may be it always breaks down, because human nature is never changed.

J.T. But God "hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead" (Acts 17:31). The moral issue was settled at the cross, and this chapter shows how it is settled in the believer, but the direct intervention of God alone

can annul sin's activity in this world. In this chapter we reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God; in chapter 8 we get the power for this. Here we get the doctrine governing our position. The Roman christians are said to "have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered" them.

W.L.P. The want of power in christians is because there is not much light.

J.T. Our wills too stand in the way. Obedience from the heart is spoken of here. This is what is needed amongst God's people, I am sure.

A.R.S. You may have light but if the heart does not obey there is no power. Doctrine gives you light, and then when the heart moves in accordance with the light the Spirit helps us.

J.T. Soul difficulty is generally on account of disobedience.

A.R.S. We have known brethren who have had great light, but they have dropped behind, because the heart has not been subject.

J.T. Obedience is the principle.

P.H.P. Paul himself is an example of that, he says, "I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision" (Acts 26:19).

J.T. The Holy Spirit is given to those that obey Him (Acts 5:32).

Rem. I am glad that you emphasise obedience, because we sometimes get an idea that love comes first, whereas obedience comes first.

J.T. And it must be maintained: "to obey is better than sacrifice" (1 Samuel 15:22). The man who has light, and yet is rebellious in heart is to be dreaded.

A.N.W. What about verse 14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for ye are not under law but under grace"?

J.T. As regards failure, I suppose we may as well confess that "we all often offend". If failure does occur, Satan occupies you with it, so as to darken

and distress your soul. In such circumstances one is likely to turn to Hebrews 6 and 10 and reason that he is lost. For such an one there is precious light in this passage: "Ye are not under law but under grace". God is the same to you that He was before you were converted; He does not give you up whatever happens. Of course, sin is sin, and has to be judged, but it does not change God's attitude towards me. The knowledge of this is armour against Satan's attack, and it aids in judging the sin that dishonours God and interrupts communion. The law holds the mind to sin, whereas grace turns you away from it and occupies you with Christ.

B.T.F. This chapter is to set free from the domination of sin as a principle that characterises the world.

J.T. Before closing it would be well to dwell for a moment on the subjective result in this chapter, what we have, what is worked out in our souls. He says in verse 20, "For when ye were bondmen of sin ye were free from righteousness. What fruit therefore had ye then in the things of which ye are now ashamed? for the end of them is death", the question is answered. Then he goes on to say, "Having got your freedom from sin, and having become bondmen to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end eternal life". What has the Christian? He has his fruit unto holiness, and the end of his exercise -- eternal life.

W.B-w. Where does holiness come in?

J.T. It is the great essential for seeing God: without holiness "no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

W.B-w. It is a question of state of soul and it fits us for the house of God.

C.A.M. The end is eternal life.

J.T. It is put at the end of the soul's experience here. It is an immense thing that through the practice

of righteousness I have my fruit unto holiness and the end everlasting life. Then the apostle tells us where eternal life is -- it is "in Christ Jesus our Lord". It is the gift of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (6)

Romans 7:1 - 25

J.T. That which has engaged us heretofore might be regarded as referring to what is external, or outside of one, but this chapter deals with what is inside; the apostle speaks of it as "sin that dwelleth in me".

Rem. As regards what was outside Paul could say, "Touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless" (Philippians 3:6). But, here, he makes it clear that there was one thing from which he could not escape, namely, what was inside, and to which "Thou shalt not lust" applied.

J.T. In taking up man as fallen, God first takes account of the things characterising him that are undeniable and public -- his sins, and then, after chapter 5, certain things that affect him externally, especially death, and sin as dominating the world. Then He shows how sin is replaced by righteousness and death by eternal life. So all that which relates to man, viewed externally, is disposed of in the first six chapters -- the whole question of what has taken place on earth is answered. In verse 18 of chapter 6 we read, "Having got your freedom from sin, ye have become bondmen to righteousness". Then in verse 23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the act of favour of God, eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". One's external position is thus adjusted in the latter part of chapter 6. In the place of sin there is righteousness, and instead of death being upon one's spirit, there is eternal life. Whereas, in this chapter and the following one we have that dealt with which is within the believer, and that is a more difficult problem to solve -- it is more complex.

Rem. The young man, who came to Jesus, said, "All these things have I kept from my youth up:

what lack I yet?" (Matthew 19:20). So with Paul, outwardly there was nothing that anyone could put a finger upon, and yet there was the question of the nature -- of that which was inside, and it made itself known in lust. It is that which makes a man cry out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of this body of death?"

J.T. The young man had kept all these things; but the Lord said, "Go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions". I suppose the Lord's words discovered covetousness in his heart.

Rem. There was nothing inconsistent externally; but there was that within which marks the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. No one of us can escape it naturally.

B.T.F. Do you take Romans 7 as soul history?

J.T. Yes. It refers to what goes on within. Chapter 6 adjusts you in regard to what is outside of you, a very difficult problem to solve -- how a christian is to conduct himself in the world, in view of the fact that he is converted, has the Spirit of God, and has been baptised. This chapter has regard to what is inside of one and which is therefore more complex. It is more difficult on account of the contracted area -- you have to deal at close quarters.

Rem. I suppose all of us who have had to do with God have sooner or later experienced something of what we get in this chapter.

J.T. No one really knows deliverance, as we call it, without this experience. I use the word 'deliverance' to refer to what is inside -- sin that dwells in man naturally. It becomes a difficult problem for our souls, and unless it is gone through, in some sense, the soul is not really free before God.

Rem. I would go as far as to say that if there are any who have had the joy of forgiveness of sins, and afterward you see no deep concern about sin itself, such souls have yet a good deal to go through. The time will come when they will experience a great deal of sorrow on account of what they find inside. I see some who go along for years with very little exercise; satisfied with the forgiveness of their sins, but they have a big lesson yet to learn. It is the explanation of what we sometimes see -- some who have been for years in the place of believers, breaking bread maybe, and there comes a time when they pass through real misery of soul -- they then begin to learn this lesson.

C.B. What is the light that enters one's soul that causes one to get into this deliverance?

J.T. "The married woman is bound by law to her husband so long as he is alive; but if the husband should die, she is clear from the law of the husband". The law rules over a man as long as he lives. The law is still in force -- it is not abrogated, it applies to those who live in the flesh. It applies to those who are lawless, impious, sinful and the like, hence the only way from under its rule is to die. "If the husband should die, she is clear from the law of the husband ... So that, my brethren, ye also have been made dead to the law by the body of the Christ, to be to another, who has been raised up from among the dead". That is the light which enters the soul. Death has intervened and the law has no more force in that Christ has died. Only you have to accept the fact that you have become dead to it by the body of Christ.

E.H. Why the body of Christ?

J.T. Because it was that in which the will of God was carried out and in which the curse of the law was borne.

Rem. "Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree" (Galatians 3:13). He took up the curse of the law, as well as taking up the question of liabilities, so in this chapter we have the way in which the body of Christ, the death of Christ, is our deliverance from law, because our death is seen in His death.

J.T. The book of Deuteronomy deals with this subject. If a man were hanged, his body was not to remain all night upon a tree, "For he that is hanged is accursed of God" (Deuteronomy 21:23). It was a commandment as to what was to take place after the Israelites were in Canaan, which enables one to form a judgment as to what hanging signifies. The suggestion is found in Genesis 9, "cursed be Canaan". As soon as they take possession of the land hanging becomes prominent. It is the form of capital punishment Joshua used in regard to the Canaanites -- not in regard of Achan (Joshua 7 and Joshua 10).

Rem. In regard of Ham there was the violation of what might be called an original law of nature, so the curse rested.

J.T. Disregard of parental authority.

B.T.F. Would you say we get here in the opening figure a new principle of life, by which the soul is enabled to see the way of deliverance as set forth in the two husbands? The first was the law, then married to Another, upon which you get the supply of affection, which is really important in regard to deliverance.

J.T. So that the new Husband comes in at the end, I suppose. "I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord". There must be a new marital link.

B.T.F. But you get a new link mentioned at the outset of the chapter.

Rem. I suppose the curse of the law brings in deadness Godward, while that which is taken up in connection with the death and resurrection of Christ produces fruit unto God.

A.N.W. I wondered whether the rod of priestly grace might answer this somewhat. Moses' rod brought condemnation; but God could continue with them under the rod of priestly grace.

Rem. That rod had fruit. It not only budded, but bloomed blossoms, and yielded almonds.

A.N.W. It seemed to bring them to the brazen serpent.

P.H.P. The book of Ruth suggests the new Husband?

B.P. Is it essential for the soul to pass through this chapter?

J.T. As we remarked at the beginning, it is essential if the soul is to be really free before God -- in liberty. Many begin well but do not go on to the full recognition of the Holy Spirit. In the history of Israel we see how they began with a song of triumph, which would correspond with a soul newly converted -- all external matters adjusted and brought to God, happy in one's conversion, and so on, but then, that song dies out. Miriam joined in the singing of Exodus 15. Our brother has just been remarking about Numbers 20. The rod of priestly grace was in the divine mind; but Moses used his own rod. The rod in God's mind was the one which had budded -- wherein was life. Miriam had just died, that is, her song ended. Many a young soul goes on brightly and happily for a while in the joy of the light they have received, but they do not go on to the judgment of sin in the flesh and the liberty of the Spirit. In Numbers 17 the principle of resurrection life is introduced in connection with the priesthood. There was typically the support of Christ as Priest. God was gradually leading up to the displacement of the flesh. What the flesh is, had not been learned up to that time. Chapter 21 tells us that "the people spake against God, and against Moses". It shows

that after all the favour and divine guidance vouchsafed the flesh remained undetected and unjudged, and at this point exposed itself in opposition to God, and to Christ. It is what we find in our own breasts, though converted for years, hence to meet this painful discovery our resource is found in the Spirit in type, in the springing well, which answers to chapter 8 here; but chapter 7 is the transition from Numbers 20 to 21 where we discover how incorrigible the flesh is.

B.P. This experience would be in view of life for God here, would it not?

J.T. Yes. With a view to our being here for God's pleasure -- that we might go into the land.

Rem. "In order that we might bear fruit to God". I like that suggestion of the rod that budded -- that of priestly grace. There was not only testimony in the buds and blossoms, but it yielded fruit.

A.N.W. How many of us, I wonder, really reach the point where we say, "I had not had conscience also of lust unless the law had said, Thou shalt not lust". Do we reach that?

J.T. We ought to do so. I believe there are many christians who are not intelligent as to indwelling sin; that is, according to the statement here: "sin that dwells in me". They may know it is there; but how to deal with it, and how to be happy with God in spite of it, is really a great problem.

C.A.M. It does not refer to acts of sin; this is more the state, is it not?

J.T. The subject really begins with verse 5, "When we were in the flesh"; it refers to a past state. The passage does not refer to normal christian state at all, but to a past state. That is to say, after the first four verses the Spirit of God goes back in our history to bring out this great subject of sin in man, which had its motions at a time when we were

in the flesh. This could not be said of a christian in the true sense of the word, for such is not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. The passage is not dealing with a christian strictly speaking. The Spirit of God goes back (verse 5) to a state which existed in its nakedness before christianity came in, "when we were in the flesh". There was such a time in our previous history. It goes on to say, "The passions of sins, which were by the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit to death".

C.A.M. "When we were in the flesh". Is it not a matter of exercise as to whether we can really use these words?

J.T. I think a christian, according to the light the gospel affords, is entitled to say that he is not in the flesh.

A.N.W. Would you not say this chapter is light? The apostle speaks as he does so that a sense of the moral power of the light might be known in our souls.

J.T. It is light just as chapter 6 is light. This is light as to what is inside of me, and in order to present the subject fully he goes back to the time when I was in the flesh. It applies, strictly speaking, to the Jew before christianity; even if he were converted, as we speak, as David was, or others, he was still "in the flesh".

J.S. When do you discover it?

J.T. I think it is really discovered after one gets the Spirit; but you see, in order to present the subject rightly, he goes back to the time before we got the Spirit -- before man could have the Spirit -- because he wants to present it in its entirety. It is one who has the Spirit who is writing it.

C.B. I have heard some christians say they were in doubt as to whether they were converted or not. Yet one would be assured they were christians.

J.T. A believer is labouring under a great disadvantage unless he is in the light of this chapter; hence the importance of it. It arms one against Satan's attacks in after years. This chapter is "armour of light" in regard to what is inside of me. There is conflict inside of men, according to Galatians: but whatever suggestion may be made, I say, I am not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Sin in the flesh is condemned (not forgiven); I accept this and am free of it.

Rem. When a man is really getting on in his soul, and begins to come under spiritual exercises, he passes through one of the worst hours in his life, for he then discovers what sin in the flesh is. He is then ready to say, 'Why, I could never have been converted if this is true of me'. I was going to suggest a very simple illustration: in the previous chapters, leading up to chapter 5, we have fruits, that is, what grow on the tree; but with the young man, to whom we have alluded, and Paul, there had not been any external fruits; but notwithstanding that, the root, the trunk and the branches and the twigs, everything was exactly the same as in others producing the fruits. Now, here in this chapter the nature of the tree is being dealt with, and when I come under spiritual enlightenment, I become aware of the nature of that root and stock; and I am brought to say, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing".

J.S. Christ comes before the soul as Deliverer at that point, and the Spirit as forming a state, takes the place of the flesh.

Rem. And the death of Christ comes in as adjusting all for the conscience.

J.T. It is well to make it clear that verse 5 is not really dealing with a christian, as some have held. Paul makes it clear that it was what belonged to the past. Then he says in verse 6, "but now"; verse 5

refers to a past dispensation; verse 6 to the present one, to the gospel period. "But now we are clear from the law, having died in that in which we were held, so that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter". So that christianity involves serving in newness of spirit. Christians thus serving answer to the mind of God.

P.H.P. When the soul desires to do good, as is supposed here, does not that suppose a germ of christianity in him?

J.T. The desire to do good was present in Old Testament times. It existed in those who were converted, as we speak, in the Old Testament. The desire to do good was there, as is expressed in verse 18, "To will is there with me, but to do right I find not" -- such were hampered. How different the position in verse 6, "But now we are clear from the law, having died in that in which we were held, so that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter". The soul is happy now in the performance of good and is not hampered in it.

P.H.P. It seems strange that a man in the flesh should desire to do good.

A.N.W. I see that; but in the young man there was a desire to do good; yet not with the same spring in his heart as seen in this man.

J.T. Even though one were converted, as living in Old Testament times, one could never be in any other state than "in the flesh". There was no other state before God until Christ died. No matter how good one's desires, there was no other state, and in it they were held under the law.

C.A.M. This is simply light. It is not describing a state that a man actually went through, is it?

J.T. I think the writer went through it.

C.A.M. Is it not then, looking at it abstractly?

J.T. There is nothing in the way of experience or conduct presented abstractly in Scripture, that is

not possible concretely. It has been already passed through. The more sincere a man was, the more force the commandment would have. Mark you, it is the spirituality of the law that kills him. It seems to me the whole force of the ten commandments for him is in the tenth, "Thou shalt not covet". That was the commandment which slew him.

A.R.S. Is not this the experience of a quickened soul, like Cornelius, for instance?

J.T. More especially one who is under the law. Verse 7 raises the question of the law, "Is the law sin? Far be the thought. But I had not known sin, unless by law: for I had not had conscience also of lust unless the law had said, Thou shalt not lust". So that he discerns, it seems to me, that the whole force of the law is in that one commandment, "Thou shalt not lust". His condition is absolutely hopeless now -- he has no standing before God. Why should he have these exercises? Were he not the subject of the work of God, he would not have them.

Rem. One greatly admires the wisdom of the whole passage, "So then I myself with the mind serve God's law; but with the flesh sin's law". It does not stop at saying, 'serve God'; but "serve God's law". See the wisdom in it! The law is not obsolete; with the mind I take pleasure in serving it.

J.T. It clears the ground for the next chapter where it says, "In order that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit".

A.N.W. What is the difference between "law" and "commandment"?

J.T. "Law", I think, is a general term, referring to what is permanently established; "the commandment" is more specific. A study of Psalm 119 helps as to the variety of terms that a spiritual man uses in dealing with that which expresses the will of God; and I think it would be found that the word

'commandment' is to show something specific. Here, I judge the writer refers to the tenth, that is, that one commandment which came home to him so forcibly.

P.H.P. I would like a little help upon the last verse: the mind serving God's law, and the flesh sin's law.

J.T. Let us look at the verses preceding: "For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring in opposition to the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which exists in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of this body of death? I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I myself with the mind serve God's law; but with the flesh sin's law". I think the "inward man" is a being; he says he delighted in the law of God according to it. Whereas, the "mind" would be the active, or combative part -- it is that by which the battle is fought, so to speak. It succeeds now through deliverance. The responsible man ("I myself") is delivered through Christ, and the mind is wholly subservient to him; with it he serves God's law.

Rem. In chapter 12 the mind is viewed as the seat of the intelligence; it is renewed, so as to prove how good and acceptable God's will is. Then in Ephesians 4 we get, "being renewed in the spirit of your mind", which is a step further.

J.T. Here it is initial. The mind has come definitely to take sides with God's will -- it is now subject to it.

B.T.F. You have, "I myself", as it were, a new person; and then you have the old state -- "the flesh".

J.T. You have first, "the inward man". That is the point to get hold of. The inward man is a divine creation; the truth of it is developed elsewhere. In

2 Corinthians 4 we read of it being "renewed day by day". Here it is the beginning of the thing; he delights in the law of God according to that man; and then he cries out for deliverance from this body of death, and receives it through thanksgiving; "Who shall deliver me out of this body of death? I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord". Now he has deliverance and is victorious. It is not yet the Spirit; he has worked it out by light, and the Spirit comes in later to support him. He has battled it through and has arrived at the point where he thanks God, and now calmly says, "so then, I myself with the mind serve God's law".

Rem. The question is worked out through the appreciation of the death and resurrection of Christ. So the gospel really fits in in its fulness, when he asks the question, "Who shall deliver me?" The answer is found in the gospel, "through Jesus Christ our Lord". He thanks God.

B.T.F. When is the deliverance, spoken of here, actually brought about?

J.T. It is worked out on the principle of light. The next chapter gives us the support -- you are supported in this by the Spirit. In spite of the fact that he has reached victorious ground, he would soon be displaced, if he had not the Spirit; so the Spirit is emphasised in the next chapter, and takes the place of the flesh. "Ye are not in flesh but in Spirit, if indeed God's Spirit dwell in you".

B.T.F. Some have said it is a moment when the believer would not only be set free in spirit but in body -- in actuality.

J.T. This is soul history, because he still recognises sin there. It is the present condition of the christian which is in view.

C.A.M. It is a matter of the mind because it is light.

J.T. The Spirit is not mentioned in this chapter.

A.N.W. Would you say he has discovered the inward man, because he has discovered Christ -- the new Husband?

J.T. I think the inward man is a moral being. It is spoken of more definitely in 2 Corinthians 4. Here, he delights in the law of God according to the inward man. Then he says, "I myself with the mind serve God's law". It is complete deliverance. He says, "I myself ... serve God's law".

E.H. What was on your mind about this giving of thanks?

J.T. It is normal christianity. The apostle begins in chapter 1 with man in the flesh. An unthankful state marks him. Even in regard of the ordinary benefits of creation, there is no real giving thanks to God on the part of man. The moral value of giving of thanks is very great. I think it is just there that deliverance comes. He asks the question, "Who shall deliver me out of this body of death?" He then thanks God: the answer is in thanksgiving. And I think the Deliverer becomes the Husband.

READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (7)

Romans 8:1 - 17

Rem. I suppose we get here, in the first three verses, a summing up of things which have been developed in the previous chapters, in order to introduce the great subject of the Spirit. Verse 4 opens it up by saying, "In order that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit". So that, as we were seeing, in chapter 5 it was deliverance from Adam in order to come under Christ. In chapter 6 it was a question of deliverance from the practical power of sin in the world; and in chapter 7 it was a question of the issues of the law. It has been pointed out that the first three verses of chapter 8 correspond to those three things, so making room for the Spirit.

J.D-s. I would suggest that the positive side of things is to be introduced in a special way. You spoke of the Spirit. "In order that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit".

J.T. The Spirit brings in practical righteousness.

Rem. There is a new power working in the christian.

J.T. The introduction of practical righteousness is prominent at the outset of the chapter. "The righteous requirement of the law" is not a full expression of practical righteousness, but involves much in the way of a moral victory. This is what the law was aiming at. The law is not null or void -- it is retained in its righteous requirement. I suppose the expression, "the Spirit life on account of

righteousness", would go on to full practical righteousness.

A.F.M. Have we in this chapter what corresponds to the plains of Moab?

J.T. I think so. The full recognition of the Spirit involves not only the plains of Moab, but Mount Nebo.

A.F.M. Hitherto the law had not been kept; but now every requirement of it could be fulfilled because we have the Spirit.

J.T. We were noticing last evening about things being done when the sun was hot (Nehemiah 7:3), that is, when it is in the meridian. That would be the objective side -- the truth developed in chapters 3, 4, and 5, which bring God in Christ into His full place in the soul objectively. Having thus His full place, chapter 8 gives the Spirit a corresponding place in the believer. In the type, Numbers 21, we have, "Sing ye unto it". The Spirit, typically, becomes recognised fully.

J.S. He is recognised as a source of power.

J.T. Yes; instead of the flesh.

A.N.W. Where is the flesh dealt with in this chapter?

J.T. It is dealt with doctrinally in chapter 7. Of course, actually on the cross, that is, Romans 3 and Romans 7 took place at the same time as to fact. Therefore chapter 8 comes in immediately. Paul's 'therefores' and 'ifs' are links in the teaching. Now, I think, the "therefore" of chapter 8:1 links with chapter 7, not with chapter 3. It is not exemption from wrath to come exactly, but rather condemnation of conscience. He was consciously condemned as in the state described in chapter 7. Those "in Christ Jesus" are immune from that.

Rem. I was wondering if you would not bring in chapter 6 also in connection with the question of the flesh.

J.T. "The body of sin" (chapter 6), refers, I think, to the totality of sin outside of me; that is, in the world. It is broken up in the old man having been crucified; but victory over sin in the flesh, I think, is wrought out in the individual.

Rem. There is that difference between chapters 6 and 7.

J.T. In chapter 7, the man has discovered the power of the flesh. It is there; but he does not see it formally condemned. Mark, it is not said to be crucified as chapter 6 says of our old man; here the flesh is condemned, as a principle, so I need not regard it any longer.

A.F.M. In the end of chapter 7 it says, "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God". "I myself". There seems to be the connecting of oneself with what is of God. Then, "with the flesh the law of sin". There is the ability to distinguish between the one and the other.

J.T. I think the man has arrived at the truth experimentally; he has come to recognise an inward man. I suppose it is some formation which answers to Christ in me. And, then, he defines the position more clearly, saying, "I myself with the mind serve God's law". He is now in control, so to speak, of the house. If sin's law is served, it is the flesh, so the position is clear. Chapter 8 takes that as a basis, "There is then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus".

Rem. Having, so to speak, isolated and brought into view the inward man, chapter 8 brings into view the power by which that man can effectively live to God, namely, the power of the Spirit.

J.T. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death". This goes beyond chapter 7, which is a mental process; but "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" is a positive thing in a new position;

and governs that new position. Then he says, "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh".

A.R.S. In connection with this expression, "in Christ Jesus", is Noah in the ark an example, or illustration, of this? For instance, Noah was placed in the ark, the Lord shut him in, and he was beyond the judgment.

J.T. I suppose so, only that the word 'condemnation' here refers rather to what is going on in one's self. The expression "in Christ Jesus" of chapter 6 would be more in accord with the type of Noah, for in Noah you have the principle of baptism: salvation from what is without -- the world, or the polluted system outside. "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us". So you reckon yourself to be dead to sin -- not sin within you, but sin outside of you. You are dead to it. In Colossians dead from it: "from the elements of the world". Your back is toward it. In Romans it is before you, but it has no power over you; you reckon yourself dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

A.F.M. In chapter 6 it is a reckoning -- you reckon yourself dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus; but in chapter 8 it says, "There is then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death".

J.T. There is no idea of reckoning there, it is a fact.

Rem. I would suggest, in connection with our brother's question, that the point of contrast is "in Christ", instead of being 'in Adam'. Adam was the man of condemnation, and condemnation is in my conscience as of Adam; but, through being

transferred to Christ, with all the blessed effects of His redemption work, I am in the sphere in connection with a Man who is in resurrection, beyond the power of death, and who has not to do with sin in any way. I am in One with whom the idea of condemnation can never connect itself.

J.T. I think this question of position helps very much in the understanding of Romans. In chapter 6 it is: "Reckon yourselves ... alive to God in Christ Jesus". Then, in that same chapter, "Eternal life in Christ Jesus", that is its position; but in this chapter it is not that I reckon myself alive to God in Christ Jesus simply; but there are those who are definitely in Christ Jesus, and there is a law governing the position, namely, "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus".

J.S. So that condemnation does not apply to that position. You have changed your position, as well as your man, have you not?

Rem. The position is based really upon resurrection. It is based upon One who, having passed through death, has dealt with sin, and has come into resurrection, where the elements of sin and death could never intrude; therefore the whole matter of condemnation is disposed of forever.

B.T.F. Would you say the great point after "in Christ Jesus" is the Spirit as power for walk?

J.T. The chapter really develops, so to speak, the functions of the Spirit; but as you suggested, we begin with the new position -- that of those "in Christ Jesus".

J.S. In this new position the Spirit of God is free, is not hampered at all.

J.T. The apostle adds a thought about himself to the general statement, which shows the working of it, and which is valuable to any one who goes in for it, namely, "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of

death". He is the typical man positionally -- he is free. The next thing is, "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh". Where did He condemn it? In the flesh.

C.A.M. Do you connect responsibility with the state, "in Christ Jesus"?

J.T. Yes. I think Scripture does; it says, "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (2 Timothy 3:12).

A.N.W. Is it not remarkable that the apostle begins to develop state as soon as he has mentioned the position?

J.T. Yes. It shows the bearing of the chapter. He wants to make prominent that there is a new state. Not only a new position, but a state corresponding with it.

A.N.W. Does not chapter 8 present the climax of deliverance?

J.T. It shows you the way of deliverance, that is, Christ is presented as the Deliverer -- "I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord". He is the means of it, but then, you change the preposition in chapter 8, it is "in Christ Jesus". The believer is now in that position.

A.N.W. I thought that chapter 8 discovered the new Husband.

J.T. It does. Verses 1 - 4 of chapter 7 lay down what is to be reached in the chapter. We do reach the Husband, but chapter 8 is more than that.

A.N.W. I thought that Christ became prominent in chapter 7, God in chapter 6, and the Spirit in chapter 8.

J.T. The great thing one sees in spiritual things is that finality is reached. Not only am I delivered from the consequences of sin but He places me in a fixed position, where all is perfectly secured, as here,

"in Christ Jesus". The position is so marvellous; would that we could lay hold of it! Paul says, "who shall put you in mind of my ways as they are in Christ" (1 Corinthians 4:17).

A.F.M. Do you connect the expression, "in Christ Jesus", with the land or the wilderness?

J.T. I think with the land; you have nothing fixed in the wilderness.

A.F.M. If the chapter is typical of the plains of Moab, how is it that we start with this remarkable expression?

J.T. He says it only in the abstract. He does not say it formally of the Romans. It is "to those", not 'to you'.

Rem. I think Romans 8:1 is like many of the psalms. It states the conclusion that is eventually reached, and then goes back and works along to the details that lead up to it.

J.T. He can state it of himself. In the second verse he says he is set free, but the whole chapter is that all might be set free.

Rem. It works up to that end.

B.T.F. When you have, "those in Christ Jesus", that is spoken of a people who have the Spirit; then the Spirit sets you free and becomes power.

J.T. That is the teaching of the chapter; but as we have been remarking, the first verse is the great end to be reached -- it is not in the wilderness; it is in the land, "in Christ Jesus".

W.B. Is this new law for the wilderness, or for the land?

J.T. "In Christ Jesus" always connects itself with a fixed position, and that is not in the wilderness. We must be careful to notice how it is put: "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death". He only says it of himself.

Rem. We need, perhaps, a little word of explanation here, that the use of the "law" does not always, or generally, mean the covenant at mount Sinai. It is the principle or rule, of life in Christ Jesus; or the principle or rule, of sin and death.

T.A. "The law of sin and of death" cannot be the covenant at mount Sinai. What then is it?

J.T. I think it is wrought out in chapter 7. "I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members". It is the state of man in the flesh. He is governed by that law, and whatever legislation might do for him, it remains the same in principle until the end. It is death, not, however, in the sense in which it is spoken of as "the wages of sin"; but rather, the state in which he is as away from God.

Rem. "Dead in trespasses and sins" and "Aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

A.F.M. Some may not have connected responsibility with the land.

J.T. Our position in Christ necessarily enters into our walk and ways here. The apostle in writing to the Galatians connects it with new creation: "For in Christ Jesus neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision; but new creation. And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace upon them and mercy" (chapter 6:15,16). Now, new creation is obviously in the land; it belongs to it, and yet, it is a rule. I think that in your daily life and circumstances you are governed not only by the initial thoughts which you received at your conversion and which continue, but you are governed and coloured by the greatest, the most precious, light you have in your soul.

A.N.W. "I ... beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called".

J.T. That is it.

Rem. I would suggest that the epistle to the Philippians gives us the light in which responsibility is viewed for one who is "in Christ Jesus" -- who is in the land. It is the light for those who come out from that position and who walk in the light and power of it. Responsibility is connected with Philippians, but for one who knows his place in the land.

A.R.S. The very expression "in the land" helps, because the children of Israel were placed in the land, and were responsible to obey what God told them to do. It was distinctly stated, if they did not obey, they would lose the land.

J.T. I think, however, whilst "in Christ Jesus" involves the land, it is well to remember that Romans does not develop it; when you come to the epistles which treat of the land, or the inheritance, you have added thoughts to "in Christ Jesus". In Ephesians we have "who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ" (chapter 1:3). You have the added thought, "in the heavenlies". Again, He "has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus" (chapter 2:6). Ephesians is, properly speaking, the epistle which develops the truth of our position in the land. Romans is more the Person in whom I am. I think the question raised as to responsibility is helpful; also that we should see that our responsibility flows from the full height of our position, or privilege, rather than from any prescribed law.

A.R.S. It used to be said, 'The greater the privilege, the more responsibility'.

J.T. "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth" (Deuteronomy 14:2). Responsibility for Israel was based on this. The Lord, Himself, is the best example -- He walked here as the

heavenly Man. He magnified the law, and made it honourable; but His walk and ways went far beyond that.

A.F.M. So you have the light of it in the Lord Himself, and we are in Him.

J.T. Quite. We are "in Christ Jesus" and the position, necessarily, gives colour and dignity to my walk.

A.A.T. The responsibility attaching to us necessitates the new state in the Spirit.

J.T. Yes. He goes on to say, "In order that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit. For they that are according to flesh mind the things of the flesh; and they that are according to Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit life and peace. Because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God; for neither indeed can it be: and they that are in flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in flesh but in Spirit, if indeed God's Spirit dwell in you". Notice it is "ye" here, christians characteristically. Therefore he puts all christians on a common platform in this -- those in whom God's Spirit dwells are not in the flesh.

A.N.W. You get a remarkable expression in chapter 16 of this epistle, a man named Apelles, "approved in Christ".

J.T. Righteousness is in view here in chapter 8. Firstly, "that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us". Secondly, the Spirit is life in view of righteousness.. It is righteousness that is in view. Now it is quite clear to me that practical righteousness in this world is a great point with God -- it is a point in His testimony. The judgment of Sodom would have been stayed if there had been fifty, or forty-five, or even ten righteous within the

city, showing what righteousness is in God's account; and I think Romans 8 brings it in. It brings in practical righteousness on the ground that sin in the flesh has been judged and I have the Spirit. So the law does not fall to the ground; but more than that, the Spirit being in the christian his body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit is life on account of righteousness.

J.D-s. Do you connect that with the thought farther on, "For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit"? That is the form the kingdom of God takes today. God established before-time righteousness; but He shows here how He works it out.

J.T. If we would go through the Scriptures with that in view, we should be repaid in seeing what a wonderful place righteousness has in God's ways. And it comes out now in christians before its public manifestation.

J.D-s. It is really anticipating the time when righteousness will mark the course of things that will be established by God.

Rem. The fact is every avenue along which God has worked, as long as it is connected with time, has righteousness in view. Whether in the individual, or the assembly, or the kingdom, we find, from the divine side, righteousness always in view.

J.T. Righteousness suffers now; but it will reign in the millennium; and will dwell in the eternal state. I think that is how it is set; but it is morally greater to see it in suffering than in any other position, and this chapter shows where it is found -- in those who are "in Christ Jesus", who have the Spirit.

Rem. I suppose the thought of dwelling in eternity is that it rests; there is no further need for its exercise.

J.T. Peter treats of the subject of righteousness. He assumes that it is here in christians and regards it as suffering. Righteousness is suffering, and it will suffer; but he looks on to a time when it shall dwell.

J.D-s. What definition would you give for righteousness? There is no doubt that God's object in the law was to secure righteousness, but righteousness by law failed because of inherent weakness in man.

J.T. "The righteous requirement of the law" does not really include the full thought of righteousness. This epistle develops the righteousness of God -- that kind of righteousness, and I think the Spirit being given to the christian in view of righteousness involves a full answer to the righteousness of God.

J.D-s. The law was an indication of what God had before Him to secure.

J.T. I think John's epistles develop practical righteousness. He begins with what God is, and says, "If ye know that he is righteous, know that every one who practises righteousness is begotten of him" (1 John 2:29). The one who practises righteousness is begotten of Him, that is the way John puts it. He traces it from Abel. Abel was a righteous man; his works were righteous and on that account he suffered.

B.T.F. The new man goes beyond "the righteous requirement of the law".

J.T. John's epistles develop that he that is born of God is righteous even as God is righteous. The new man is "created in truthful righteousness and holiness".

Rem. I was thinking that, really, what came out in such men as Abel, Enoch, and Abraham exceeded in moral value the requirement at mount Sinai. What was required at mount Sinai was in accord with the divine mind; but not the full measure of it.

J.T. I suppose the gospels, presenting as they do the life of Christ, give us the full idea of practical

righteousness. In Matthew 5:21,22 we have, "Ye have heard that is was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you ...". He unfolded a system of teaching which would be law, embodying the great principles of righteousness; answering to this we practise righteousness according to God. The word 'requirement' here necessarily limits you, whereas with God it is a question of His rights in mercy -- what He does sovereignly. It is God acting from Himself and according to Himself, in Christ. So the answer to that in the christian is, "He scattereth abroad; he giveth to the poor: his righteousness abideth for ever" (Psalm 112:9).

Rem. It is more than a question of righteous acts: It would not do to limit righteousness to acts; it is a question of the moral being behind the acts. So seen in the Lord Jesus -- "I delight to do thy will, O my God" (Psalm 40:8). There was a spring there whether He was doing or not, so to say. So we are brought under the light and sway of that which goes beyond the covenant of Sinai: the righteous acting of the believer, in the power of the Spirit, is a question of what comes out of the new nature.

J.D-s. In christians righteousness is not only demanded but produced.

Rem. It is really the outcome of the divine nature.

J.T. "He that practises righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous" (1 John 3:7).

A.R.S. Will you explain what is meant by, "When they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both" (Luke 7:42), and how God does it righteously?

J.T. The incident is recorded in Luke 7. In a passage preceding what you quoted, it says, "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized

of him" (chapter 7:29,30). That is, the righteousness of God was there in Christ -- John bore witness to it -- and Jesus Himself said, "Suffer it now; for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15). In saying that He submitted to baptism. Now, he says, the Pharisees and lawyers did not submit to baptism, so that the publicans and harlots would go into the kingdom of heaven before them; and the example is in a woman, who came into the Pharisee's house and submitted to the righteousness of God -- she had faith. The righteousness of God is, "on the principle of faith, to faith". It was there in Christ in all its fulness; but the Pharisees and lawyers did not submit to it, they did not recognise Him who was there; whereas this woman did, by the manner in which she treated Christ -- she wept, washed His feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. So the Lord sets forth His position in His speech to Simon, It was the expression of the righteousness of God. They were both on the same platform; but only one submitted. So He says to the woman, "Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace". She had the faith. What would that woman be afterwards? What would she be in the light of our chapter? She would be righteous; and her righteousness would take the form, not of demand or accusation, but of forgiveness.

A.F.M. True righteousness is based upon love to God and one's neighbour; this woman would be found in a righteous orbit henceforth, as having affection for Christ.

A.N.W. In Romans 13:8 we have, "Owe no man anything, but to love one another". But in Ephesians 4:28, "Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour ... that he may have to give to him that needeth". There seems to be an extra obligation resting on the man in Ephesians.

J.D-s. Righteousness is really the recognition of the relationships that God has established, either

between Him and myself, or His creatures and myself.

Ques. You could not be righteous apart from Christ?

Rem. The law could not make us righteous, it was dealing with material that was hopeless, therefore righteousness cannot be apart from Christ.

W.B. The standard of righteousness which most of us have in our minds is too low; is that your thought?

J.T. I have no doubt it is too low. Our walk should flow from Paul's light. "Arise, shine! for thy light is come" (Isaiah 60:1). It should be in reference to that. We were noticing yesterday that recovery from Babylon was not only to the Mosaic system; but also to David's system. So recovery today is to Paul's doctrine -- it is to the full light of the church's position with Christ in heaven.

W.B. So it is a mistake to limit the Lord's life and ministry on earth to "the righteous requirement of the law" being fulfilled; it goes beyond that.

J.T. Whilst maintaining, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled", yet He said, "I say unto you"; He added to what the law required. He said, "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:18,48).

READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (8)

Romans 8:18 - 39

B.T.F. Would you say that what is developed from verse 5 to verse 14 has regard to the statement made in verse 4?

J.T. Verse 4 is the result that God had in His mind which should be reached; but I think there is more in the following verses than the fulfilment of "the righteous requirement of the law"; that is, there is, as we said this afternoon, the full result of righteousness in the christian on account of the Spirit -- the Spirit is life in us. Then, that which follows the period of practical righteousness is resurrection, and that also is based on the Christian being indwelt by the Spirit -- our mortal bodies are said to be quickened on account of His Spirit dwelling in us. "If the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you". It is as if the apostle pursues the results consequent on the presence of the Spirit in the saints, first in the expression of practical righteousness and then in the quickening of the mortal body -- all being dependent on the Spirit. "But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ ...": the change from "Jesus" to "Christ" is suggestive.

A.F.M. Of what?

J.T. I think "Jesus" is the Man in whose personal walk God was pleased -- glorified; as we have it in the meat-offering. Whereas "Christ" is more what He was as anointed for the testimony.

Rem. "If so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you ... the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from

the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you". If the Spirit of that God, who took such infinite pleasure in the Man, Jesus -- if His Spirit dwells in you, He that raised up Christ, as Head of every man (I suppose that is the idea), shall also quicken your mortal bodies on account of His Spirit dwelling in you. Our mortal bodies will be taken good care of, if indwelt by His Spirit.

B.T.F. I thought the connection was that in verse 4 you have "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit", and in verse 14, "for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God".

J.T. "Who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit", refers to our walk, and brings out the thought of what a man should be here on earth according to God, such as Jesus was. But then there is another side to the presence of the Holy Spirit, that is, He leads us, "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God". That is not a question of our walk, but rather of what we are in connection with the counsels of God; "these are sons of God".

A.N.W. It is "the Spirit of God", not simply the Spirit here. It is important to pay attention to the forms of expression employed.

J.T. This chapter, one might say, is a treatise on the functions of the Spirit, and the different connections in which He operates in the christian.

Rem. We get, "the Spirit of life", "the Spirit of God", "the Spirit of Christ" and "the Spirit of adoption".

J.T. The last is written with a small "s" in the better translation, "a spirit of adoption" -- showing that it is characteristic of the believer.

A.F.M. It is rather a new thought to me, that we are led by the Spirit of God into divine counsels. I am thankful for it.

J.T. One is marked off as a son, by moving in that way.

Rem. It is akin to Hebrews 2, "bringing many sons to glory".

A.F.M. Would you mind saying what it is to walk "after the Spirit"?

J.T. The thoughts are very much akin, only walk in verse 4 is more in the wilderness; but, then, there are great things which the Holy Spirit leads the soul into which suggest sonship, or our relations with God. "The righteous requirement of the law" is fulfilled in those who walk according to Spirit -- that is a wilderness thought. Where the law broke down, it is maintained in those who have the Holy Spirit; but then the Holy Spirit has great things before Him, and He leads us into them.

A.F.M. You might say that one results in righteousness and the other in counsel.

Rem. Galatians 5:16 supports that: "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh". That, I suppose, clearly indicates it is a question of our responsible walk down here.

J.T. "If we live by the Spirit" (Galatians 5:25), would refer to our relations with God, known inwardly; then, "let us walk also by the Spirit", refers to our responsible life.

Rem. A very important distinction.

T.A. "If Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness" (chapter 8:10). There is an advance on the possession of the Spirit, is there not?

J.T. I think so. That is a bit of Colossian truth. The thing is not designated of any special ones. "If Christ be in you, the body is dead"; if one thing is true another is true; but it is not stated as being

true of them. If it were true such would be the consequence. It would be, I should say, an appeal to the consciences of the local company. If the body was not dead (that is, if the body was simply a vehicle of lust) then Christ was not there; He was not in them.

Ques. Would it show there was a formative work of the Spirit there?

J.T. "Christ in you" is Colossian truth. It is said to be the mystery. In Colossians it is not 'Christ in you' only; there is an added thought, 'the hope of glory'. It is Colossian truth, brought in here to complete the subject as to the Christ's position. We were remarking yesterday about the sun being hot in the heavens (Nehemiah 7:3); I think the Holy Spirit brings Christ into the affections, just as the servant of Abraham brought Isaac, in the way of testimony, to Rebecca, so that he found a place in her heart. Christ being in the saint leaves no room for the lust of the flesh: "If Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness" (verse 10).

A.F.M. It brings things to a climax. What about the expression, "If any one has not the Spirit of Christ he is not of him" (verse 9)?

J.T. That is a terrible word for any one in the christian company, because it suggests the possibility of one being outwardly there without the Spirit of Christ.

Rem. You cannot disconnect that from the previous part of the verse, "But ye are not in flesh but in Spirit", and then, the apostle seems to pause and adds, "If indeed God's Spirit dwell in you; but if any one has not the Spirit of Christ he is not of him". All has to be taken together. It raises a serious issue.

W.B. "The Spirit of Christ" -- is that different from the Holy Spirit?

J.T. I think it is the character -- the Spirit of that Man. This translation seems to favour, however, the thought of the Holy Spirit, although the translator tells us frankly he is not sure always. The original does not help, it is a question of spiritual judgment as to whether it is the Person of the Spirit, or the character that shone in Christ as Man, and, it seems to me, the latter is the thought in it. It is a question of the kind of spirit one is of.

Rem. Yes, rather on the line of John 14:30, "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me". He is of another order, of another spirit.

C.A.M. In connection with the statement, "If so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you", how do you know you have the Spirit dwelling in you?

J.T. That is a very important question. I am sure it requires attention. The Holy Spirit, broadly speaking, makes Himself felt in the christian; it is a poor thing if one has to refer to the Scriptures as the only evidence that he has the Spirit. The Scriptures, of course, are full of teaching as to the Spirit being given to believers; but surely we are to be conscious that He indwells us. Galatians 5 gives a list of the fruits of the Spirit.

C.B. Love for the brethren would be one of the evidences, would it not?

J.T. The Holy Spirit would surely make Himself felt in the christian, and it seems to me, the facts recorded of His actings with Christ help us. It is said of the Lord in Mark 1:12, "The Spirit driveth him into the wilderness". That is, He was impelled to go. He was led into that into which, naturally, He desired not to go. The Holy Spirit in that way was recognised. He made Himself felt. I am speaking reverently of the Lord; but He was there as a Pattern for us. Then, it says in Luke 4:14, "Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit". As if,

in the first instance, it was the Spirit's initiative, whereas, in the second instance it was the Lord's initiative, and the Spirit was available for Him. He returned in the power of the Spirit. So, I think, the christian should look for those marks -- whether there is a power in us taking the initiative, and we doing that which would not be done by us as left to ourselves.

Rem. The word used in Mark is very emphatic in that way, "driveth him into the wilderness". There was an impelling power to which He yielded; and as you say, would suggest Christ as Pattern for us. With regard to us, it would indicate the positive power of the Holy Spirit that drives, or makes way, against what is of nature. I think that is a very important point.

A.F.M. It was Deuteronomy ground the Lord occupied, not that part of the wilderness which denoted self-will working.

J.T. The Lord referred to Deuteronomy. So His position in the wilderness corresponds with this chapter. Further, the Holy Spirit makes much of Christ in the soul, so that one discovers that one thinks of, and delights more in Him. Then, He makes much of the saints; that is a very good test, I think; the saints become interesting and invaluable to us. One sees it in young christians; they think more of the Lord; they read the Scriptures more; they pray more, and enjoy meeting the Lord's people. All these things are evidences of the Spirit in the believer.

Rem. Response to the knowledge of Gad, as Father, is a very marked sign of the Spirit; this is seen when the soul cries, "Abba, Father".

A.F.M. What about self-judgment?

J.T. It is another mark. It is, "By the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body".

A.A.T. When you are preaching how do you know whether you are preaching in the power of the Spirit, or from memory?

J.T. It is difficult to say much about it. I am quite sure that one may be conscious of the Spirit's power in ministering. You feel led beyond what is merely natural ability, in the sense that Christ fills the soul -- light comes in that has not been there before. One evidence of the Spirit is that divine things which you have had in your soul become expanded -- that is one distinct mark of the Spirit in ministry.

J.D-s. We are in the Spirit's day, and everything depends upon the place the Spirit is given.

Rem. I recall that Mr. Wigram remarked that it was when he became conscious of God as Father that he knew he had the Spirit. He had the sense of being able to say, "Abba, Father"; it was the Spirit of adoption.

J.D-s. That is one of the characteristics of the babes in John's epistle, they know the Father.

J.T. Another thing may be noted here -- the word 'dwell'. You may have the Spirit; but He may not dwell. It is very different for one to come into your house out of the cold -- you extend a shelter -- to inviting and preparing for one, and making him perfectly free and at home in the house. Many christians give very little room to the Spirit, that is quite evident. The idea of dwelling is not simply that you are under the roof -- it is more than that -- it is that you are restful, that you are not disturbed by contrary elements. So Galatians 5:17 contemplates an abnormal state in the christian, "the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh". That is not proper christian state. If the Spirit is always contending, I do not think He is dwelling.

A.F.M. He abode upon Christ.

J.T. Quite; all was infinitely complacent there.

Rem. There is a great difference between contending and witnessing. "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God". That is very different from Galatians 5:17.

J.T. It is like a loving visitor speaking with all gentleness and tenderness to the children of the family as to their place with their father. He "bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God".

T.E.H. If I do not allow the Spirit to dwell in me, do I defeat the object of God in principle?

J.T. Yes, for dwelling in or with men is the great thought with God. It is that which He had in mind from the outset. This is not Ephesians where God dwells in us Spiritwise; but it leads on to Ephesians. If the Holy Spirit does not dwell in us, God does not dwell in us; that is evident.

A.N.W. There is another scripture, "Grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30). That is unchangeable, is it not?

J.T. There is the sealing, the earnest and the witness, all that; but I think dwelling is the great thought. It is what God has in mind.

Rem. Referring to our brother's remark, do you not think the epistle to the Galatians indicates the way in which the Holy Spirit was grieved? They were on a line which was destructive of the truth and, it seems to me, that it illustrates what it is to grieve the Holy Spirit.

J.D-s. Is that what you had in your mind in the use of the word 'contending'?

J.T. I referred to the passage, "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh". The figure in Galatians is Isaac and Ishmael. They could not continue together. If Ishmael is retained -- amiable, religious, cultivated flesh -- the Spirit of God is grieved. Sarah, who

represents the energy of the Spirit, says, "The son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son". She demands that he must be cast out, and God supports her.

Rem. Is there not a difference between "receiving" and "dwelling"? The Galatians had received the Spirit.

J.T. The question of His being there was indisputable. It is assumed they had received the Spirit by the hearing of faith; but, then, the things which they were admitting were incompatible with it, so the apostle brings in the figures of Hagar and Ishmael and Sarah and Isaac to show that Christ, and the man born after the flesh, must not be allowed in you at the same time. Otherwise, the Holy Spirit is disturbed, and so combats.

Rem. That comes out very clearly. "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?". They had received the Spirit -- the apostle does not dispute that. "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"(Galatians 3:2,3). The issue as you say, was Ishmael and Isaac. He does not dispute that Isaac was there.

B.P. When the Spirit dwells in a believer, is it possible for the Spirit to be grieved so that you could not say He is dwelling?

J.T. I should say it is. One may sin, and the like, and get away from the Lord; but if restored, he is restored to what he left.

J.D-s. The original idea was that the Spirit was to dwell. That is what the Lord intimated in regard to the coming of the Spirit (John 14:15 - 17). The normal condition is dwelling.

J.T. It shows that God would not only be complacent in us, but restful. The dove that Noah sent out is a type of the Spirit. She found no rest for the sole of her foot, so she returned. It would indicate

the conditions obtaining in Old Testament times; there was no one to whom the Holy Spirit could come and abide. He could come upon this one, and that one; but not to abide. But, when Christ becomes Man, there is a point of restfulness: when He was thirty years of age, "the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form as a dove upon him" (Luke 3:22). It meant that the Spirit was wholly there. No believer could receive the Spirit in that way in entirety. But He dwells in the saints -- in measure in each one, according to the measure of self-judgment.

J.E.H. Would you say the Spirit dwells consequent upon fulfilling all righteousness? Is that the point? The Lord had just said regarding His baptism, and immediately before the Spirit came upon Him, "It becometh us to fulfil all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15).

J.T. The Spirit of God is not going to dwell in any house where there is not practical righteousness. So practical righteousness comes first, then you have the idea of dwelling, and then what there is for God, "ye have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father". Not 'He cried'; but "we cry, Abba, Father". In Galatians the Spirit cried; but here the full thought of God is stated; that is, "we cry, Abba, Father", by the Spirit. That, I suppose, is what the Father seeks from the Christian. He loves to hear that cry.

B.T.F. Is the thought that sonship is reached in the soul?

J.T. That is the way it is stated here, "For ye have not received a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye have received a spirit of adoption" (or sonship), "whereby we cry, Abba, Father". So that we are brought to Christ's platform here; these are the exact words He used.

A.A.T. In one place the apostle says, "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit" (Galatians 5:25). What is the difference between "living" and "walking"?

J.T. I think what came out this afternoon was that "living" refers to the relation of your soul with God, "the Spirit is life". It is in the power of one's relation with God that one walks here. You can walk better for God after a good meeting or after prayer or communion with God. The nearer you are to God in the power of the Spirit, the more power you have in walk.

A.F.M. Even though the Galatians went back, the apostle states of them as a fact, "ye are all God's sons".

J.T. "By faith". It is well to remember that sonship is a matter of light. We are sons of God by faith; but then, it says, "Because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father".

Rem. Sonship is a matter of light. That is, the full manifestation of it is a matter of light; but we have the Spirit of sonship now.

J.T. It is a matter of light as justification is. I am a son by faith. I get the Spirit on that ground. I do not get the Spirit to make me a son; but because I am a son.

A.F.M. Here, is it not rather the consciousness of sonship? The Galatians were recovered by the truth of sonship; but here we are conscious of being sons, so we cry. As you were saying, the Spirit cried in Galatians; but here it says, "We cry, Abba, Father". That seems to be the highest point reached.

J.D-s. Yet there is something beyond this later in the chapter, beyond the Spirit of adoption, we get adoption.

J.T. "Awaiting adoption, that is the redemption of our body".

J.D-s. It shows that, as to the actuality of the thing, we have to wait for it; but we are in the light of it, and because we have the Spirit we are able to speak in the way indicated here.

Rem. In comparing Romans and Galatians it is, perhaps, helpful to see that we do not exactly have failure presented in Romans. It is rather the line of teaching which brings individual saints up to the point of what there is in store for them. There is such a thing as being "in Christ Jesus", and what they have in store in connection with sonship, the one body, the purpose of God, and so on, and then it leaves them to find the development of these things. The Galatians had had the thing, but were slipping back from it in a very serious way; so their recovery is in view in the presentation of the truth.

W.B. In Romans 8 it is, "We cry, Abba, Father". Was it a slight on the Galatians to say the Spirit cried, "Abba, Father"?

J.D-s. But they were not behaving as sons, were they?

J.T. Anyone under the bondage of the law, could not be in the good of sonship. I suppose that was so with the Galatians.

Rem. They had the Spirit which involved sonship, but were going back to bondage; that was the drift.

J.D-s. The apostle reminded them of what was theirs, but what they were not enjoying.

J.F-r. Would you mind mentioning the difference between "sons of God" and "children of God"?

J.T. The term "children of God" refers to us as here in this world. We are not children of God by faith, if you understand me. It is not a term that applies to God's counsels, but, rather, to us in an adverse scene, where we suffer. So, immediately, you have, "And if children, heirs also: heirs of God, and Christ's joint heirs; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him". It refers to us as here, where Christ was and suffered, and where we suffer. Did you have any other thought?

J.F-r. I think it has been said that it is God being with us as children, and we being with God as sons.

J.T. That is true. John's epistle develops the subject of children: "Beloved, now are we children of God, and what we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2). We are that now. As children of God we are marked off by certain traits in this world.

Rem. So in 2 Corinthians 6 God assumes the place of Father to sons and daughters here in this scene. The idea of sons and daughters would never come into sonship; it would in connection with children. I suppose that to which you referred in John's epistle, "what we shall be has not yet been manifested", has reference to sonship.

J.T. Quite. You would not wish to be other than like Him; that is enough.

J.D-s. I suppose the idea would take in what we have in Ephesians 5:1, "Be ye therefore imitators of God, as beloved children", as well as the place we are in, and the suffering involved as a consequence.

Ques. In walking through the wilderness, have we the consciousness of being sons or children?

J.T. I think both.

A.N.W. I thought being led by the Spirit of God, being sons of God, was rather across the Jordan.

J.T. Yes; but there is the other side, what the Spirit is to the christian here. There is no time in one's experience when one is not free to enjoy the great fact that he is a son, that he has a place in the counsels of God. It is a question of the fact as light in your soul; but you need to be in the circumstances to go in for it and to enjoy it as it can be enjoyed.

A.F.M. I suppose the same thing would apply to eternal life. It is enjoyed in the land -- -in that

sphere, but you always enjoy the fact that you have it.

A.N.W. It has been remarked, the wilderness is more God with you, and the land, you with God.

J.T. A man enjoys the fact that he has a family, for instance, although he may be away from it. You cannot take eternal life out of its setting; nor can you take sonship out of its setting. All these things are in their place; but I have light about them, and I have always got that light.

Rem. When we come to types, we have to be very careful to remember that they will only serve us a certain distance. When the children of Israel were out of Egypt, and in the wilderness, they were not in Egypt. When in the land, they were not in the wilderness; but for us, we touch the sphere of the world, we are in the wilderness, and, in a moment of time, we may have passed into the holy of holies -- to know what is inside there. While each sphere is distinct, and is capable, in a way, of spiritual analysis, yet we ourselves are in very close contact with all at the same time.

A.N.W. In Joshua 5:12 the Spirit is very pronounced in saying, "The manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land". There is a point at which we pass from one sphere into another.

J.T. There are certain conditions upon which the enjoyment of christian privilege depend. As I was remarking, in natural things you would always enjoy the fact that you have a home and a family; but you have to come back to the family to actually enjoy it. This holds good in regard to divine things: one may always enjoy the knowledge of the fact that he has a place in the counsels of God, but he has to come to the assembly to have the enjoyment of the things themselves. The manna supports one individually; but when you come to the collective sphere,

which necessarily depends upon the saints, you have another order of things, a sphere of affections and all that. I believe that is what the Lord has sought to make very plain in recent years. These things were made to be available to the individual, without the conditions; whereas it was insisted upon, by the Spirit of God, I believe, that the enjoyment of divine blessings and privileges are dependent upon those conditions.

Rem. Hence the warning in Hebrews 10:25. If you do not respect, and appreciate, these conditions you are in danger of apostasy.

B.T.F. Would you say we have the affections of sonship in the Spirit?

J.T. Yes. The relationship is as true now as it ever will be. The word here "awaiting adoption", does not refer to the relationship; but to the condition of the sons; to "our body".

J.E.H. If one enjoys the thought of being one of the children, can it be apart from being one of the sons?

J.T. The two things go together. One refers to what I am with God; the other to what He is to me here. The Spirit witnesses to me that I am one of the children. It is really a question of the comfort one has in adversity. God is Father to me and I am one of His children. Heirship is brought in so that one is sustained in adversity by such knowledge.

Rem. They had the principle of being children even in Old Testament times. God took that attitude towards them, and it was a great thing for them.

J.D-s. Was not that of a national character?

Rem. "Will be a Father unto you" is the basis of an appeal to us, and it was true, in principle, to them and He dealt with them accordingly. "Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him" (Psalm 103:13).

J.T. It is not here simply a matter of light. The point is, what the Spirit does for us. He witnesses with our spirit -- a most blessed experience -- that we are the children of God.

A.N.W. That agrees with John's line.

W.B. Do we enjoy the privileges of children or sons in the house of God?

J.T. In the house you enjoy the privileges of children; but in the assembly the privileges of sons. Whilst they are interchangeable expressions, in a sense, "God's house, which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15) -- the assembly conveys a different thought from the house. You find it in the type of Aaron and his house, and Aaron and his sons. Now, the idea of the assembly does not go with the house, but that of affection; when you come to sons it is counsel, interchange of thought, and so on. So, I would say, the assembly is the place of supreme privilege.

W.B. It is a higher thought.

J.T. The idea of the "house" in 1 Timothy is extensive. It covers a wide area; but, then it says, "Which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth"; it suggests counsel, so the Lord says, "My assembly".

READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (9)

Romans 8:18 - 39

Rem. It has been suggested many times that in Romans we get things indicated without their being expanded, or fully developed. I was thinking that in the section read we get two things of high importance, first the light of the world to come and the liberty of the glory connected with it, and then the purpose of God, which touches what is eternal.

J.T. The first section gives us the Holy Spirit in us as a present state; then we are seen looking on to the coming glory.

B.T.F. These verses provide wonderful sustainment for us while we are left here amid the groaning and the suffering.

J.T. The christian here is seen as waiting adoption, that is, the redemption of his body. Whereas, the creature generally is looking out, or expecting the revelation of those who have adoption, namely, the sons of God.

C.A.M. You made a distinction between a christian and the creature.

J.T. "For the anxious looking out of the creature expects the revelation of the sons of God". The "creature" refers to creation. How that may be true concretely is, perhaps, difficult to show; but it is taken account of abstractly here.

A.N.W. All that came under the fall.

J.T. Yes, it goes on to say, "The creature has been made subject to vanity, not of its will, but by reason of him who has subjected the same, in hope that the creature itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God". It refers abstractly to the whole realm of creation which was affected by Adam's fall.

J.B. Would that bring in the animals too?

J.T. Yes. A distinction is made between the believer and creation here. "For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now. And not only that, but even we ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, we also ourselves groan in ourselves, awaiting adoption, that is the redemption of our body".

Rem. What is indicated in the prophets will then be effectuated. Compare Isaiah 65:17 - 25. This is connected with Hebrews 2, "We see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus ... crowned with glory and honour". He is there in connection with the establishment and maintenance of the world to come.

J.T. The passage quoted adds, "By the grace of God he should taste death for every thing". Clearly here it is to work out the truth of the gospel, not only in regard of the believer, but to show its bearing in respect of the whole realm affected by sin. Having touched on the sufferings of this present time, which he reckoned were not worthy to be compared with the glory which should be revealed to us, the apostle is led to speak of creation. It is most interesting and touching, because it shows the extent of divine sympathy in the gospel. It is not simply man, although he comes in first here, the believer's place is emphasised by the repetition of the word 'ourselves' (see verse 23). He shows the dignity and prominence of the believer. But the Spirit of God shows in the passage the extent of divine sympathy in the gospel in that the whole realm of creation looks out anxiously for deliverance. Everything that came under sin is in His mind and will come into the benefit, according to its measure, of the gospel.

Rem. One sees that God has ever been exceedingly thoughtful of the creatures of the universe. He made His covenant with Noah to protect them. "A

righteous man regardeth the life of his beast" (Proverbs 12:10). And with regard to sparrows, "one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father" (Matthew 10:29). Also the prophets speak of peace and restfulness coming in for the creature. The Lord Himself groaned. It may be helpful to read a word or two of the footnote of the New Translation on John 11:38. It says, 'Or' groaned '... But here as within in spirit, it is not the expression of anger. It was the feeling produced by the deep pain caused by seeing the power of death over the human spirit. There was so far indignation that there was deep antagonism to the power of evil and Satan in death'.

A.N.W. Does it not help to notice that this is still the subject of the Spirit? A kind of a counterpart to it?

B.T.F. Verse 15 is the upward cry, but this which we are now considering refers to the lower part of creation in connection with which the Spirit is sympathetic.

A.N.W. The Spirit of adoption does not lead us so high that we forget what is here.

J.T. We are not indifferent to what is being endured in creation on account of sin.

A.F.M. We are now able to take an intelligent account of it by the Spirit, considering what has been before us in the earlier part of the chapter, and to look out and see the final result of everything -- all being recovered for God.

J.T. The christian would be sympathetic with his beast, according to the Proverb quoted, and indeed, with the whole realm of suffering creation.

J.S. The conditions of the body are taken account of, "even we ourselves groan within ourselves".

J.T. "Awaiting adoption, that is the redemption of our body".

Rem. A christian becomes sensitive as to creation. One cannot help feeling, when one sees a horse

cruelly treated: it is part of the depravity of man that has come in through his sin, and is repulsive to God; one feels for the thing injured; and regards the world as an intolerable place. "The whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now". The Lord at the grave of Lazarus felt the power of sin over man. Here it is all creation which He will deliver.

A.F.M. When Adam fell, all creation fell with him; we have to take that into account. There is the other side presented in verse 21.

J.T. I think God is regarding what we call the lower, the inanimate, creation as not guilty. The guilt is charged to the head. The four living creatures in Revelation 4 represent what God secures in the way of sympathy in His own doings, from the creation. The throne is there supported by the representatives of creation, as if in triumph. The four and twenty elders would have in view those experienced and intelligent who are qualified to reign and are able to give an account of things; but the creation itself is represented as secured through the gospel in the four living creatures -- they are living! A remarkable testimony to the power of the gospel.

J.B. What is the "glory to be revealed to us"?

J.T. It is all that God has displayed in Christ. But, to follow up the thought of the living creatures, it is a great point to see, in the description given, that they are not angelic figures. They are figures taken from the lower creation, lest Satan might assume that God had to bring everything out of heaven, the whole lower realm being lost to Him. Whereas, the gospel secures all. The living creatures are seen in the four heads of the animal kingdom in Revelation 4:7.

A.F.M. I notice that after the living creatures are described, the twenty four elders fall before Him,

and then "Every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and those that are upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, to the ages of ages. And the four living creatures said, Amen; and the elders fell down and did homage" (Revelation 5:13,14). Here again the elders are introduced after the living creatures, suggesting that what is set forth in them is now found in the redeemed, as the result of the gospel.

Rem. I think that is strikingly supported in Revelation 4:11, "Thou art worthy, O our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honour and power; for thou hast created all things, and for thy will they were, and they have been created". That is, the pleasure of God is emphasised in connection with bringing into view the four living creatures.

J.T. There is also what is secured in the way of sympathetic interest in these four heads of creation -- the four living creatures. "The first ... like a lion" suggests the security of that dignity which man lost in the fall. "The second ... like, a calf": the foot of the ox is very firm and steady; patience also is suggested, which God has secured. Instead of man's feet being swift to shed blood, he is steadily employed in the carrying out of God's will and maintaining His interests here on earth. "The third ... having the face as of a man" denotes intelligence, not angelic in character, but what God originally purposed in Eden; therefore man's countenance is no longer in hiding. "The fourth ... like a flying eagle" -- in that powerful bird, swift for the prey, is suggested man as swift for God's will. It is the rapidity with which man as recovered now carries out that will. All divine thoughts connected with earth are again set up; but by means of the gospel. In this we see God's great triumph!

A.N.W. It says: "four living creatures, full of eyes, before and behind".

J.T. Everything is seen by these agents of God's government.

Rem. The absorbing of light and the expansion of intelligence. Returning to our chapter we have in verse 19, "the revelation of the sons of God"; and in verse 21, "the creature itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God". There is a distinction there -- "sons of God" and "children of God".

J.T. I suppose "sons of God" would refer to the saints as of heavenly origin and calling; whereas "children of God" would be those who have suffered here, but in suffering bore witness to the nature of God.

Rem. So the argument would seem to be that when the children of God are in their place -- when they are seen in the liberty of the glory -- everything else in creation will, so to speak, be automatically right.

A.N.W. Do you understand that this remarkable paragraph, from verses 18 - 30, flows out of the expression, "suffer with him"?

J.T. Yes, I think that right, it all flows out of it.

A.N.W. Is it not striking that in this paragraph he reaches, as an accomplished fact, what in the previous paragraph is still in prospect? In verse 30 the glory is accomplished, whereas in verse 17 it is still in prospect.

J.T. Is not that stated as only God can state things? That is, the full thought in His mind is presented, aside from the historical fact, except that the glorification is involved in the Spirit being in us. As to the historical fact, it is still future. "But whom he has predestinated, these also he has called; and whom he has called, these also he has justified;

but whom he has justified, these also he has glorified". If we say that that means the Holy Spirit is in us, of course, we can understand it; but I apprehend that it must assume the full result -- our having glorified bodies.

Rem. Verses 29 and 30 really involve Ephesians; it is a question of eternal purpose; the truth is there presented from the divine side; failure and an interval of time are not contemplated.

J.T. It is what God does, as the passage clearly shows, "For we do not know what we should pray for as is fitting, but the Spirit itself makes intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered. But he who searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit". Then the two 'becauses': "Because he intercedes for saints according to God. But we do know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to purpose. Because whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be the firstborn among many brethren". That is one great thought in the passage. Then, "But whom he has predestinated, these also he has called; and whom he has called, these also he has justified; but whom he has justified, these also he has glorified".

C.A.M. The word 'called' is in time, "whom he has called".

J.T. The word "justified", too. "Foreknown" is historically true and "predestinated" is historically true also; but you could not say that it is historically true that I am conformed to the image of His Son. Could you?

A.N.W. Only in a moral sense.

J.T. He has predestinated us to be conformed; but we could not say we are so definitely, nor can we say we are glorified definitely; we must therefore take it as the full divine thought for us.

Rem. That is it. It seems to me it is abstract.

A.N.W. Why do we not say what Scripture says, "These also he has glorified"?

J.T. Because it is not put as historically true. It must be viewed from the divine side, just as in Ephesians. God only can say these things. He "calleth those things which be not as though they were" (Romans 4:17).

A.N.W. I notice that the words, "with him", used in verse 17 are left out here. In verse 17 it is glorification with Him which is prospective; but in verse 30 it simply says, "these also he has glorified".

J.T. As Mr. Raven pointed out, the gift of the Holy Spirit was in principle the glorification of the believer; but, I think, when you come to look at it from the divine side, God has in His mind the change of the believer's body; for we are to be conformed to the image of His Son. The complete work is in view. If we are to be glorified, it is to "his body of glory" that we are to be conformed.

Rem. The idea of time does not enter into it, it seems to me. It is what is abstractly true.

B.P. Would you say we are fully justified now?

J.T. We are justified on the principle of faith; but when you come to analyse it, it would be difficult to say that one is absolutely (that is, taking account of one's daily life) justified now. Therefore, I think, it is the full divine thought as to believers which is in view here ( verses 29,30). Our wilderness circumstances are not contemplated. It is not a partial justification, nor a partial glorification, but the full result in the mind of God, which necessarily involves the change of the body.

Rem. So that verse 33 is not by faith. God justifies.

C.A.M. The assurance of the whole thing is that we have the Spirit.

J.T. Surely. Not only that, but the possession of the Spirit, in a sense, does glorify, "for the Spirit of glory ... rests upon you".

C.A.M. It connects the body we shall have with our present bodies.

J.S. There is a certain triumph on the Spirit's line, as reached in the end of the paragraph, that God does not stop at any half-way measures -- He goes right on to the full divine thought.

T.H. What is "the image of his Son"?

J.T. I think we shall be fully like Him, so that there is perfect representation.

Rem. It is not the image of Adam, but the image of His Son.

J.T. And it is, "that he should be the firstborn among many brethren". It is on account of what God thinks about Him.

C.A.M. Is it right to say that "image" is external?

J.T. That is what we shall be, I understand, as we come out. "We shall be like him" 1 John 3:2 says: "it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is". We shall be like him; that is the point.

Rem. "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself".

A.F.M. Would the thought of being "conformed to the image of his Son" be in view of presentation or display? It would be rather in view of the former, would it not?

J.T. I think both. "When he brings in the firstborn into the habitable world". The Firstborn! "He says, And let all God's angels worship him" (Hebrews 1:6). But then He has others: He is the Leader of a race, or family, and they come into view.

Rem. It goes further than presentation. It establishes the eternal status -- what isever before the face of God.

J.T. "What shall we then say to these things?" Now we come to a full stop, and attention is called to "these things". Evidently he has reached the thought that was in his mind, and the believer is now to ponder "these things".

Rem. If one understands this, he will be hungry for Ephesians.

A.N.W. He individualises himself three times in this chapter, in verses 2, 18, and 38.

J.T. In verse 2 he says he is set free. In verse 18 he reckons, and in verse 38 he is persuaded.

Rem. There is an interesting distinction between the love of Christ and the love of God.

J.T. You would say that the love of Christ is spoken of here in connection with wilderness things.

Rem. Yes, material things.

J.T. The other things (verses 38,39) mentioned are more of a spiritual nature. Indeed, the whole universe is challenged.

Ques. Does the love of Christ refer to Christ as Priest?

J.T. Yes, I think so. It is the love He has for us as a Man. It is to be distinguished from the love of God, which was in Him. We have to work out in our souls the difference between Christ for us as Man, "who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Galatians 2:20) and the love of God in Him. As become Man, He has a man's affections and He begets affection. So you have "my delights were with the sons of men" (Proverbs 8:31), implying personal interest in men. I suppose, "sons of men" properly are a product, spiritually, of what Christ was as a Man here as seen in the gospels. There is a peculiar interest in a son. It says of the young man, "Jesus beholding him loved him" (Mark 10:21). There is the charm of youthfulness.

The Lord found His delight in such; but I think they were the product of what was seen in Him as a Man down here. Then there is the love of God, and the love of God is enjoyed by the sons of God.

A.F.M. We get these two thoughts suggested every Lord's day morning, in the bread and the cup, do we not?

J.T. The first is the love of Christ, "This is my body which is given for you" (Luke 22:19). That is His personal love for them, so that He goes the full length of giving Himself for them -- He gives Himself! But then, there was besides that, and at the same time, in Christ the full revelation of the love of God; although immeasurable, it was all there and the witness of that is the cup.

Rem. It is most interesting to set over against the love of God all satanic and spiritual powers of wickedness, things which did not originate in connection with wilderness circumstances but which go far back into the very origin of things, just as the love of God goes back into the origin of things. The love of Christ may be connected with the throne of grace: "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:16). In Hebrews we get sympathy and power in connection with the priesthood and the throne. But the love of God takes account of spiritual wickedness, principalities, powers, and the like, height and depth, everything in the created sphere; the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, is that from which none of these things can separate us.

J.T. The set of circumstances that surrounded the Lord at the last supper may be made to correspond with the first set of circumstances here, and in spite of them all, He was unaffected by them, and told out His personal love for the disciples. But, after that, Gethsemane comes in; there is another

cup -- the cup of wrath. Satan would have come between the people of God and the love of God, he could have prevented Christ from taking that cup.

A.N.W. Would spiritual powers attempt to raise moral issues between man and God?

J.T. I suppose they would. I suppose these are elements that are encountered in ourselves, more than in our bodies.

J.S. Is it the consciousness of the love of Christ that sustains one in wilderness conditions?

J.T. He makes you feel His love is ever present; He can sympathise with us, for He has been through everything. Verses 35 - 37 present circumstances in which He once was. "For thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we have been reckoned as sheep for slaughter". The Lord has been just there, "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth" (Acts 8:32). It is the position of a saint here in the wilderness -- he is in the minds of others as one intended for slaughter. They have no other thought; you are not fit for their system of things.

Ques. What is the idea of conquerors?

J.T. One is not under the circumstances spoken of -- one is not depressed by but superior to them. Being accounted as sheep for the slaughter is a very terrible thing for the flesh, when not resisting it. As James 5:6 says, "Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you". It is hard for the flesh to refuse to resist. But how can it be done? Through the love of Christ; to refuse to resist through the power of the love of Christ is victory. One can only be a victor, divinely, as corresponding with Christ in conflict. So it is coming out in the Spirit of Christ that the victory is assured. "We are more than conquerors through him that loved us".

Rem. One gets wonderful gain out of it. If I am delivered from death, I have the sense of my deliverance; but here is a suggestion: you may not be delivered outwardly, but you get wonderful gain in the sense of the support of the love, and power of Christ.

A.N.W. It would be easier to be put to death once, than to be killed all the day long.

READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (10)

Romans 9:1 - 5; Romans 10:1 - 4; Romans 11:22 - 36

J.T. We have already had before us that this epistle is the adjustment of things on the earth. The chapters we have considered show how man is adjusted individually with God. These chapters show how the promises are reconciled with the truth of the gospel, and how Israel came into their place according to God's counsels as regards the earth.

Rem. In a way, what we get unfolded here is as necessary as the ark in the days of Noah. That is, if the ways of God are to be performed on the earth, clearly it must be in connection with Israel brought into adjustment with God; therefore, we must have something to make clear how God adjusts the promises made to the fathers with the present position of Israel, and it is here unfolded.

J.T. The chronology we get in Genesis as regards the family of Noah ends with the statement, "And by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood" (Genesis 10:32). And then later we see how the nations are to be blessed through Abraham. But in 1 Chronicles the idea of chronology is to show how all are to be connected with David. This section shows, in the adjustment of things on earth, how God has all the nations before Him; they are taken up provisionally now for blessing on the ground of faith (Israel is blinded for the moment, but ultimately, according to the original purposes, Israel will come in for the first place on earth). So that Chronicles contains the spiritual link -- how the nations are linked up typically with Christ. In Genesis we have the outward facts stated, so that a believer can account satisfactorily for himself as to the origin, or history, of any nation he may have to

do with; but in Chronicles the links are spiritual, and Christ, as typified in David, is the centre for all.

B.T.F. What was the point about David in contrast to Abraham? I did not quite get it.

J.T. I was remarking that in 1 Chronicles the genealogies all merge in David -- beginning with Adam, Seth and so on. So that 1 Chronicles is spiritual chronology in that way. It fits in here because this section shows how the nations are in the mind of God for blessing and are brought in for the moment on the ground of faith; but not continuing in the goodness of God, they lose the place they now have, and Israel will return to their own place again. So that the principle of election stands; whatever may seem to contradict it outwardly, God ever reverts to His original thought.

B.T.F. That would make the present moment a wonderful one in connection with God's ways.

J.T. It is a great moment in that He is pleased to take up the nations in Christ on the principle of faith. And of course, we come in there. The word for us is that we are to continue, "Take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: ... toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off".

Rem. So that, Jew or gentile, in the final result everything is established on the basis of the sovereignty of God. It is a question of election.

C.A.M. Man's responsibility and God's sovereignty go together, do they not? They both seem emphasised in this section.

J.T. Yes. God's sovereign purpose must ultimately prevail.

C.A.M. Thus one is safe in putting everything on that ground, and yet one has to bring in the thought of responsibility too.

J.T. Certainly. We are to continue in God's goodness.

A.F.M. Would you give us the setting of these three chapters?

J.T. Chapter 9 is especially marked by the thought of sovereignty -- the principle of election -- showing that whatever claims the Jews had in the way of priority, they were necessarily founded on the sovereignty of God. The fact that Ishmael and Esau were shut out, although elder brethren, establishes the fact that Israel's position was on the ground of sovereignty. The feature in chapter 10 is, "The word" -- the preaching. "The word is near thee, in thy mouth and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach". That was their position then. Deuteronomy 30 is cited, when Israel is regarded as having failed absolutely: "For the word is very near to thee". It was not far away from them. So we have the sovereignty of God in chapter 9, the word and the preaching in chapter 10, and the ultimate reinstatement of Israel in chapter 11.

A.F.M. Salvation is very prominent in chapter 10. Then the natural branches are graffed in in chapter 11, where all are seen as coming in on the ground of sovereign mercy. It is this which enables the apostle to utter his doxology at the close.

Rem. In chapter 10 the preaching goes out to the extremities of the habitable world. So the sovereignty of God is by no means confined to Israel; but embraces all the nations of the earth. It is by the way of preaching, but the preaching of itself carries the idea of sovereignty; that seems to go right through this section. If Israel are finally to come in again, it is because the sovereignty of God works in that way.

J.T. So, "God hath shut up together all in unbelief, in order that he might show mercy to all".

B.T.F. Chapter 10 is a most interesting account of the way that God is pleased to work at the present moment; "How shall they hear without one who preaches? and how shall they preach unless they have been sent?"

A.N.W. One is struck in observing the number of quotations from the Old Testament that these three chapters contain.

J.T. The apostle intended to justify God's position, as seen in his ministry, in the eyes of the Jews and so brought in these scriptures. In a masterly way he weaves a fabric with material from the Old Testament.

A.F.M. The point of departure with the Jew was that he stumbled at the stumbling-stone, and that paved the way for the grace of God to go out to the nations. The apostle shows clearly God's right to address all men in Christ.

W.B-w. Was it the sovereign rights of God in mercy in connection with the world?

J.T. Yes. The apostle adjusts everything on the earth in relation to God. Here His faithfulness in regard of the promises to Israel is established.

W.B-w. Chapter 3 would be God's rights in mercy to the believer.

J.T. But there was this outstanding question from the times of Abraham, which had to be adjusted; and the adjustment of it involves the sovereignty of God and the faithfulness of God. This latter is very important, and these chapters show how He is faithful -- whatever He has promised He brings to pass, and Christ is the Vessel through whom it is brought to pass.

Rem. I think the Jew would be apt to overlook the fact that the nations were included in the promise, "In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed" (Genesis 22:18). The Jew would confine things to himself as a son of Israel; but the promise of

God extended to all nations of the earth. So here, things are brought out side by side and adjusted. Nothing fails.

C.A.M. The apostle had such knowledge of the ways of God, and yet he speaks of himself as going through such sorrow in connection with Israel: why is that?

J.T. Does it not show that he intended to bring out the great affection he had for his nation after the flesh? That affection runs right through these chapters, and lends force and lustre to what he says. It is not a cold outline of the faithfulness of God in connection with Israel; it is an outline by one whose affections are bound up in it. He virtually says, If there is any question as to Israel's blessing, I am personally an answer to it: I am an Israelite and have the blessing; therefore the blessing is unquestionable which God has in mind for every true Israelite.

A.N.W. The climax of all their favours was Christ, "Of whom, as according to flesh, is the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen".

J.T. He sets out in that verse what Israel's privileges are from the divine side. First, he says, "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not". I think we might note, particularly, that in dealing with the promises of God, Paul should bring in this question of veracity. In 2 Corinthians 1 Paul refers to the Corinthians charging him with lightness; but he bases everything on what God is: "But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay. For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us ... was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen". So here he says, "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness

with me in the Holy Spirit". A most forcible way of putting the facts. Then he says, "I have great grief and uninterrupted pain in my heart, for I have wished", not, I wish, "I myself, to be a curse from the Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen, according to flesh; who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the law-giving, and the service, and the promises; whose are the fathers; and of whom, as according to flesh, is the Christ". All their advantages and privileges are stated there. One who could speak thus is competent to do so, and should be heard, for his affections were in the subject which engaged him. He virtually says, 'I am not behind Moses'. Moses had said, "Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin -- ; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou has written" (Exodus 32:32).

Rem. In fact, he expressed here most beautifully the sacrifice of Christ -- He was blotted out for them. I was thinking of the depths of his affection. It was that affection which forced him to go to Jerusalem. He would go to see if he could not win them for Christ. The Spirit witnessed that he should not go up to Jerusalem; but, his heart was set on winning them for Christ.

A.F.M. Do you think we have a parallel here with what we get in Matthew 11, the Lord there speaks of the unrepentant cities where His mighty works were done, and then retreats into the purpose of God -- there were the babes? So here he says, "Not however as though the word of God had failed"; and brings in the line of purpose.

J.T. "Not however as though the word of God had failed; for not all are Israel which are of Israel; nor because they are seed of Abraham are all children: but, In Isaac shall a seed be called to thee. That is, they that are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned as seed". It is remarkable

that he should use the expression, "children of God" there.

J.D-s. I have thought that these chapters give us the past, present and future of Israel. And, as has been justly said, the apostle shows how the promises of God are quite consistent with the truth that he had enunciated in the early part of the epistle. This parenthesis comes in so that there might be no question as to that. While God is dealing very freely today, He is not forgetting what He has promised. And further, taking more the spirit of what we have in these chapters, it would appear as though God had a remnant among His people to bring forward at the right time. I do not say they are acknowledged publicly; nor can they get blessing apart from the church; but it occurs to me that it is clearly in the apostle's mind and it is what he had before him.

J.T. He says, "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace".

Rem. I suppose Paul himself was an example of that very thing. He was an Israelite, therefore an expression of the faithfulness of God, and was added to the assembly. One does not doubt that in all ages, a line of Israel has been added to the assembly, fulfilling the faithfulness of God as to His promises to the fathers, which will go right through until Israel is turned to again.

J.T. The citations from Hosea would concur with that. In verse 25, "I will call not-my-people My people; and the-not-beloved Beloved" (chapter 2:23). Then in verse 27, "But Esaias cries concerning Israel, Should the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant shall be saved" (Isaiah 10:22). Again in verse 29, "And according as Esaias said before, Unless the Lord of hosts had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and made like even as Gomorrha" (Isaiah 1:9).

Rem. So Isaiah prepares us for that in chapter 6 of his prophecy, "But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof". There is preserved a remnant.

W.B-w. It will not be merely sovereignty on God's part; there will be faith on their side as well, will there not?

Rem. There must be. It could not be apart from faith.

J.T. Historically the remnant were added to the assembly just on that ground, and Paul himself is an example here. So that the thoughts of God do not lapse; they are ever present in a living way. Paul was an Israelite indeed.

Ques. What connection has the remnant of Israel at present with the Israel to come into view in the future?

J.T. Divine thoughts do not lapse. All the features of the testimony that centred in Israel, according to Peter's epistles, are connected with the saints now. Although we may not have literally converted Jews amongst us, we have those who are really Jews; that is, every converted person is a Jew according to Romans, as chapter 2:29 shows. So that the features of the testimony are continued. But at the beginning of christianity the Jewish remnant was incorporated in the church, and in that way preserved (Acts 2:47).

Rem. In connection with the promises to the fathers, I think that in the assembly there has always been a representative of the seed of Abraham. While I fully go with what you say, as to the spiritual significance of what is Israel indeed, yet the promises to the fathers and the perpetuation of the line of the seed of Abraham is a matter to be considered. As we get at the beginning of chapter 11, "I say then, Has

God cast away his people? Far be the thought. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin". There is an indication that, preserved in the assembly, the line of the seed of Abraham is carried over until the world to come, and one rather cherishes that thought.

J.D-s. When God comes to take up His dealings with the earth, Israel will be the centre and He will have the nucleus in the remnant to bring forward.

J.T. Whether there are literally converted Jews in the assembly at the present moment or not, we know they were there at the outset. Paul's statement proves it.

Rem. So God has not cast away His people. It is like the preservation of a line in the carrying over from the remnant at the outset to the remnant introduced in the world to come.

A.F.M. I suppose every one who comes gets the blessing; he gets it on the ground of sovereign mercy, whether Jew or gentile.

J.T. I think it is a great point -- the sovereignty of God, the sovereignty of mercy, and then His faithfulness in carrying out what He promised sovereignly.

A.N.W. Do you not regard the bringing in of election here a bold stroke on the part of the apostle in a treatise on the gospel? When preaching the gospel you hardly bring in both sides.

J.T. You can see the force of his argument because he is dealing with those whose claim depended on it. Whatever privileges they had, they were based on sovereignty, therefore it was a strong argument.

A.N.W. It is a wonderful argument, and Paul is remarkably vigorous in bringing it in here where the responsibility of man is raised. "I have loved Jacob, and I have hated Esau". Then the case of Pharaoh is introduced but he justifies God on both sides.

J.T. The cases he cites establish the principle of election, and so whatever the Jew might say as to his ministry, he was fortified.

Rem. I think his own case is a very remarkable one. If you take Peter, James, John and the others, they were brought in before the rejection of the Holy Spirit, and before the Lord had written upon them, "Lo-ammi", -- not My people; but Paul himself was taken up, not only after the rejection of Stephen, but as identified with it, so that he becomes a remarkable example as to how the sovereignty of God asserts itself in connection with Israel, even if governmentally He has to give them up.

J.T. He calls attention to that in 1 Timothy 1. It is well worth noting. He is an example, or "a delineation": "But for this reason", he says, "mercy was shown me, that in me, the first, Jesus Christ might display the whole long-suffering, for a delineation of those about to believe on him to life eternal". He was in that way an example of God's sovereign mercy.

J.D-s. It is remarkable how he speaks of mercy too. It corresponds with the subject we have before us, because all is put on the ground of mercy in these chapters. While sovereignty has its place, and the faithfulness of God, the way it works out is in the mercy of God. At the same time I think that the sovereignty of God should be introduced in preaching the gospel.

A.N.W. As a rule, we rather impress the responsibility to believe in preaching.

J.D-s. That is quite right; we need to be balanced regarding the two sides.

J.T. Only you have in view that the elect "may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus".

A.N.W. What strikes me is that the apostle in bringing in this argument reaches such a climax -- that God's judgments are unsearchable and His ways

untraceable, on account of which he bows in a spirit of worship.

J.T. The beginning and the end of the subject, we might say, is the cream. There is the great affection he had for the people first of all, and then how his heart is moved in the presence of God, so that he is a worshipper. The working out of the counsels of God in regard of the earth itself becomes the occasion of worship.

Rem. His doxology really breathes the spirit of the final psalms, that is, when the whole earth is brought into the light of the adjustment of God's ways -- everything that hath breath praises the Lord. The doxology here suggests that.

W.B-w. God is not defeated. None of His thoughts are lost.

J.T. No. I think there is food for our souls in the affections that underlie the statement of the facts. For it is a beautiful piece of fabric, woven out of Old Testament material, coloured and ornamented with New Testament threads, and yet an earthly thing. The colour is not blue; we might say it is crimson and purple, and withal beautifully woven.

A.F.M. The casting off of the Jew is the world's reconciliation; is not that an important factor for the gentiles?

J.T. It is brought in incidentally; but the point is the reception of the Jews at the end. "If their casting away be the world's reconciliation, what their reception but life from among the dead?". It is a new thing: Ezekiel enlarges upon what it shall be. It is life from the dead. They stand on the earth "an exceeding great army" (Ezekiel 37:10).

Rem. There is a contrast between these chapters and Moses in Exodus 33; "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be

gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face". But these three chapters are the weaving together, and the display of the adjustment of all the ways of God, so that everything is perfectly harmonious. This doxology of praise takes up what Moses could not; all is brought into view and the heart is delighted and worships.

J.T. The weaving out of this fabric from Old Testament material is very fine, adorned with New Testament thoughts; only all connected with the earth, but founded on the death of Christ. The heart of the apostle is moved at the end in the light of what God effects on the ground of His sovereign mercy, "O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable his judgments, and untraceable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor? or who has first given to him, and it shall be rendered to him? For of him, and through him, and for him, are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen". It is like Ephesians 3 as regards the church, although it is the heavenly side there, "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages. Amen". In Romans it is the adjustment of things on earth leading to worship. Ephesians 3 is the accomplishment of the counsels of God in connection with the church. It is a higher thought; but the heart is moved in both cases to worship God.

B.T.F. Do you think that expression of praise is drawn from these three chapters, or includes the whole epistle?

J.T. It is especially suggested by the skill with which God works out His own purposes in regard of Israel, in spite of the difficulties.

A.F.M. His judgments and His ways, would you say?

J.T. Yes. When you come to Ephesians 3 you are on a higher platform. It is not there a question of His ways but of His eternal counsels, "to him be glory ...".

A.N.W. The counsels are not said to be unsearchable.

J.T. No. I think the unsearchableness of things has reference to what we have to do with today -- the labyrinth which has been brought about by man's will in connection with the nations. Men have just done as they pleased, and there has been no thought at all in the arrangements of the nations as to the purpose of God. It never once enters into the minds of the statesmen of the world. But this chapter is a question of the mind of God and He is behind all that goes on here on earth. This doxology shows a heart that is in the secret of that. The things which occur publicly are the veil of providence which the statesmen of this world cannot penetrate; but the christian, like Paul, goes behind these happenings and knows what God's mind is, and is restful, and worshipful; for he sees a moment when He shall set His King upon the holy hill of Zion. He has the wisdom to bring it about, hence the apostle is moved here to utter this wonderful doxology.

C.A.M. The meaning of all this has been treasured in the assembly, so the assembly in the day to come will be intelligent as to the working out of it; the one who speaks here is one of the assembly -- the light he has belongs to the assembly.

J.T. In Colossians and Ephesians we have the mystery. This leads on to it because it is a question of God's wisdom. The mystery is really the solution of everything. Paul had the light of it but does not develop it in Romans. Touching on it in the last chapter he says, "According to the revelation of the mystery, as to which silence has been kept in the times of the ages". It means that God had kept it

from the nations throughout those dark ages -- the light of His counsel concerning Christ and the assembly. That is the point in the mystery, "that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him".

Rem. So in this very chapter the apostle says, "I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this mystery". Things were in mystery; but he did not want them or us to be ignorant of it. John comes in, in the Revelation, and shows us the light of the establishment of things, according to heavenly counsel, and the adjusted condition of things upon earth -- the two are blended in Revelation 21.

J.D-s. It is remarkable how the apostle saw his way through things -- through the maze of things as they were affecting him and the saints of God in that day. And as he saw his way through them, he was able to give praise to God -- to fall back on the sovereignty of God and to call into his argument that God would be God, and would act for Himself, and from Himself, apart altogether from the failure. And when he saw how God was going to bring to pass that which pertained to the earth in His own good time, he was filled with praise and wonder. That was the meaning of the doxology -- the way God was going to effect things for Himself, and according to His pleasure, in connection with all pertaining to the earth; but more especially, in connection with His people to whom He had made the promises.

J.T. In order that the christian should be qualified to take up the mystery, as in Colossians and Ephesians, he has to be adjusted as regards his position on the earth; because Colossians and Ephesians involve elevation. How can one go up, unless adjusted below in regard of the righteousness of God,

and the power of God, and the love of God, and the faithfulness of God? One has to be adjusted in regard of these things in order to be free to ascend.

J.S. The church, as such, is not introduced in these three chapters; but on the other hand, the light of all the arrangements in respect of the nations and Israel is treasured in the assembly.

T.H. Is that why we have in Galatians 6:16, peace and mercy "upon the Israel of God"?

J.T. Yes, "the Israel of God".

W.B-w. It is not the ascension of Christ here: but the resurrection of Christ.

C.A.M. When Paul said to king Agrippa, "Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come" (Acts 26:7), you do not regard that as applying to individuals?

J.T. "Our whole twelve tribes serving incessantly day and night", he says. It is difficult for us to reconcile that with the literal fact; but it is best to admit that Paul must have known what he said. So James writes, "To the twelve tribes which are in the dispersion". They evidently had an existence then known to the apostles.

C.A.M. While the other two tribes we know will come into blessing, yet the birthright always was with the ten, was it not? In Joseph.

J.T. Joseph had the birthright.

C.A.M. So that is the assurance that the twelve tribes will be brought in.

J.T. We were noticing last week that in Genesis 37 it says, "These are the generations of Jacob. Joseph, being seventeen years old, was feeding the flock with his brethren". That is all you get for a good many chapters; all the others are ignored until their faces are toward Joseph -- until they are seen going down to him in Egypt. So the whole of the twelve tribes shall come into recognition when their faces are Christward.

Rem. When the Lord comes into the temple Anna is there, of the tribe of Asher. She is of the ten tribes. It helps one, as seeing that God has kept His eye on that which appeared to be lost; so that when Paul says before king Agrippa, "Our whole twelve tribes serving incessantly day and night", one thinks of Anna, of the tribe of Asher: she departed not from the temple, she was waiting for the Lord. I have not a doubt but that the promise of God to the fathers keeps at all times the line of the twelve tribes, even as Anna was on that line. She was the spiritual element gathered out from the twelve tribes which otherwise were lost.

J.T. So, if we go by Paul and James, we must not say the ten tribes are lost.

READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (11)

Romans 12:1 - 21; Romans 13:1 - 14

J.T. We have now come to the practical effect of the great doctrines which have been before us in the earlier chapters. Here the believer's body comes into view.

G.W.W. His body is to be the vehicle in which what precedes is to be displayed.

J.D-s. In contrast to what we get at the beginning of the epistle when the body is entirely dominated by sin; now it is set free for the service of God.

J.T. The believer, in that way, has always something to sacrifice -- his body.

Rem. The believer becomes light in the place where the Lord was light. If we contemplate this chapter, we see that what is exhorted came out in the Lord Jesus Christ, in the days of His flesh, in large measure.

B.T.F. What is the force of "a living sacrifice"?

J.T. I suppose it is in contrast to the dead ones they offered in Israel under law. In chapter 8 we have: "The body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness". So the body would be, in that way, the vehicle of the Spirit. It is living.

B.T.F. So much more pleasing to God, inasmuch as it would be the working out of living affection.

J.T. Intelligence too, I suppose.

J.S. It is to be a continual thing. Not simply periodically, as in the Jewish economy; it is a service rendered all the time.

A.N.W. All sacrifice is to God, is it not? Whatever we may do may be for one and another, yet the sacrifice is to God.

J.T. God is rightly the legitimate Object before our souls in our sacrifice.

J.D-s. The verse says as much -- "acceptable to God".

J.T. The believer's body is his own property, as it were, and he has it, as now relieved from the domination of sin, and he is free to sacrifice it; so that things are put on moral ground.

G.W.W. The body having been set free from the domination of sin, it is not now that God says, 'I demand it'; but it is handed over to the believer that he may yield it as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God.

J.T. The moral element in Romans is an important thing to get hold of, because it suggests that God is not acting arbitrarily -- it is a moral question -- He is entitled to it, and we are exhorted by the mercies of God to present it.

G.W.W. The believer yields it constantly. It is held at the disposal of the will of God, and in that way it becomes a sacrifice.

Rem. It touches chapter 6, "Now, having got your freedom from sin, ye have become bondmen to righteousness". As you say, it is first liberty and then, What are you going to do with your body?

W.L.P. We must be conscious of the mercies of God so as to acknowledge His rights over us.

J.T. I think He has creatorial rights over us; but Romans is not on that ground. It is on the ground of His compassion. "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the compassions of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice".

G.W.W. Although He has His rights, it is something He is prepared to accept at our hands.

Rem. It is on the ground of intelligence; we are enlightened. It is no longer the ignorance of distance; as brought near you are in the intelligence of what God is.

J.B. "Ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God".

J.T. It is not arbitrary -- things are worked out; you prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Rem. That is what I had in mind as to occupying the place that was the Lord's, because one can see the fitness of it. As regards His sacrifice, His service, it was good and acceptable and in accord with the perfect will of God. It is a wonderful thing, that endued with light, and in the sense of the grace of God, we can take up that position.

J.T. It would be helpful to see that christianity is established in this world on moral grounds: that there is that here which has been proved superior to all other things. Religions have been enforced on the ground of theory -- mohammedism and the like -- but christianity is established here on grounds that are moral.

G.W.W. Even the law was pretty much on that ground -- the law laid down a rule to be adhered to.

J.T. The basis which Romans lays in our souls is that one is consciously superior to everything in the world. You do not feel that you are giving up, or losing anything. Romans impresses upon you that things are morally greater in christianity than in anything existing here; therefore, we have at the end of this chapter: "If therefore thine enemy should hunger, feed him; if he should thirst, give him drink ... Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good".

Rem. What religion ever taught us to love our enemies? Nothing but christianity.

J.T. "For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:7,8). There is a good deal made of what is being done now in the world, but Romans eclipses

that -- nothing can come up to the moral greatness of what came out in Christ.

B.T.F. Would you say we get a beautiful picture of kingdom truth here?

J.T. I think so -- the moral superiority of it. This chapter gives us what is worked out in you. In the earlier chapters, up to the fifth, things are worked out through Christ.

J.B. Last month reference was made to mount Nebo. It was from mount Nebo that Moses beheld the land, and this chapter supposes that we are in the good of the land.

J.T. Conduct here is based on what God is towards us. It is not like Ephesians, where you are brought into the land. Here it is the result of what God is in Christ in the way of deliverance. It is the compassion of God here.

G.W.W. I suppose what Romans contemplates is the sphere out of which Christ was cast, and in which the believer is set up, the moral traits of Christ coming forth. It is not so much the heavenly position.

J.T. The point which came before us in a previous reading was that headship is worked out in Romans on moral grounds. He is obviously the Head because of what He has shown Himself to be.

C.A.M. If one gives up one's life, as is being done in the world today, it is really a forfeited life which is given up.

J.T. The body of the believer comes into great prominence here. It is what has been divinely accorded to him now, as it were, given back to him.

W.B-w. Has the believer any other property?

J.T. He may have; but there can be nothing to compare with his body. It has been released from the dominion of evil, and is the only link we have with this present world.

Rem. So that redemption is the great feature in it.

J.F.C. It involves suffering. "He that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God" (1 Peter 4:1,2).

G.W.W. What really comes out, in the way the body is held, is the measure in which one has been affected by the light of God. The light is shining, but whether the light of God has really had its effect on the soul is seen in the way the body is held. One desires that we might increase in the apprehension of the light so that we may understand what is suitable to God. The soul is not held by rule, but by the measure in which it has apprehended the light of God.

Rem. In other words, the power of your spiritual life is to be relative to the light of God presented to you objectively.

G.W.W. Yes. It is well to bear in mind that the light is shining for everyone and the responsibility of all is to be in the full apprehension of that light.

J.S. It is a great thing to carry out the will of God in our bodies.

J.T. It is the beginning of the testimony.

A.N.W. Is that the thought that the Lord brings before us when He speaks of the body and light? "If therefore thy whole body is light, not having any part dark, it shall be all light as when the lamp lights thee with its brightness" (Luke 11:36).

J.T. The body there is fully under the control of the light. There has been a full apprehension of the mind of God and it is shining out of the body in every direction. "The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light". The light is received and diffused in the body so that the body becomes luminous. Not only that one has light for oneself, but he emits it.

Rem. So this chapter raises the whole issue of what we are left here for. One has often said that if it were a question of fitness for heaven it would not require our being left here. The whole issue of our being left here is sharply raised in this chapter.

J.T. It is the beginning of testimony. God takes possession of the believer's body and thus triumphs! That which was once dominated by sin, is now for the will of God.

G.W.W. One is struck with the thought of that which shines out through the believer's body. It is not what one says, but the way in which light has so completely got possession of the believer that his body is luminous.

J.T. It is a great triumph for God, that one who before has been governed by his own will, should now be here for God's will.

G.W.W. "For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light" (Ephesians 5:8).

J.S. Is not this more than light? It is more active, bringing God in, in a sense. He has a vehicle here for His will.

G.W.W. The light has taken effect in the believer's soul, and has done its work; one might say it has become life in his soul, and now it is coming out.

J.S. So we have a "living sacrifice".

J.T. God has a vehicle for His will in my body.

W.B.W. He wants us to prove it.

J.T. He comes in. God comes into the world on moral grounds in the way of testimony. He can come in at the present time, only through believers. Chapter 12 suggests what is the beginning really of witness.

Rem. I would like to suggest that we get here in Romans the godly, intelligent believer in the wilderness prepared for Colossians, which will lead him across Jordan and prepare for Ephesians, association

in the heavenlies, and that that prepares again for the coming out, as it were, in Philippians -- a heavenly man walking -- here.

J.T. I think that is right. Colossians is a step beyond Romans but Corinthians is parallel with it. Romans, first of all, brings in the boards for the tabernacle and in this chapter puts them together. The idea is that the believer is for God's will. Then Corinthians enlarges on this: that the believer's body is the Lord's, that is, He has title to it, and it is God's temple. This runs parallel with our passage because Corinthians views us as in the wilderness, but in a collective sense. This chapter goes on to show that we are not to think of ourselves unduly; it lays the basis for unity. One has surrendered his own will, and works out in his soul that God's will is good, acceptable and perfect -- that is the attitude. Then, "For I say, through the grace which has been given to me, to every one that is among you, not to have high thoughts above what he should think; but to think so as to be wise, as God has dealt to each a measure of faith. For, as in one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office; thus we, being many, are one body in Christ". Not, 'ye are the body of Christ' yet; that is Corinthians, but we are "one body in Christ".

Rem. The boards are to be put together.

J.T. We are set up by the binding influence of Christ. It is not by any man's regulation, or creed, it is that we are "one body in Christ".

G.W.W. Romans really prepares the individual for the collective thought that you get in Corinthians.

J.T. Yes, that is the idea.

G.W.W. The failure at Corinth came in through individuals being bad Romans, if one might so put it. If they had been good Romans, the collective thing would have been in order. The failure was in the apprehension of Romans.

Rem. Romans comes in with what is normal -- it is not corrective -- but Corinthians has in view the breakdown and the failure, and therefore is corrective.

J.T. Corinthians is distinctly collective. The saints are addressed as "the assembly of God which is in Corinth", and, whilst it is a corrective epistle, it is also a constructive one.

G.W.W. The Lord's right over my body is more in connection with the company.

J.T. Romans brings in the triumph of God, and that triumph is great. The individual is taken hold of, and completely recovered to God in his soul. He does not merely acknowledge that christianity is right and superior to everything else which exists, but the man is now for God. So if you have a number of men like that, you have material for the dwelling place of God. This epistle lays the basis for independence of Jerusalem. Jerusalem previously had been the centre. This epistle lays the basis for independency of all that was earthly. Paul leads up to the thought of believers being put together as "one body in Christ". The idea of "in Christ" is worthy of attention in this epistle.

G.W.W. This chapter suggests the rings of gold attached to the boards of the tabernacle; it prepares for the collective position. The believer no longer thinks of himself as an individual simply, but begins to take account of his collective position as in the mind of God. This chapter is like the believer having his rings attached.

J.T. I would like to read again the verse which confirms that: "For I say, through the grace which has been given to me". Take note, the apostle is not speaking here in an arbitrary way; it is, "through the grace which has been given to me". He is speaking on that ground. "For I say, through the grace which has been given to me, to every one that is among you, not to have high thoughts above what he

should think; but to think so as to be wise, as God has dealt to each a measure of faith". I think we should note that expression. Each one is to think of himself so as to be wise. He does not say he is a cipher, but as it were, God has taken me up, and suited me for some thing. He has an estimate of himself according to God. As you say, he has a place in the structure and he thinks of himself "so as to be wise, as God has dealt to each a measure of faith". For the reason that it is all to be living, and we are really only living according to the measure of our faith.

B.T.F. The more you see yourself connected with the structure by the Spirit of God the more lowly it would make one.

J.T. One cannot be more, and one cannot be less, than what God has made one. God has made each of us something; but it is according to the measure of our faith.

C.A.M. According to this verse there would be a danger of one thinking too much of oneself.

J.T. Yes, but there is a danger of being too humble minded, in a legal sense, so that the company of the saints is deprived of what God has given to you. Why should there be such long pauses when together? There is often such timidity which is really the outcome of false humility, that it tends to clericalism and as a result things are thrown into the hands of one or two. The idea here is, that each one has a measure of faith (if he has not, he is not a christian at all, and should not be in fellowship), and belongs to the one body in Christ, and so is to contribute to it. Verses 4 - 7 show how it is worked out; it is in the body, and it is "as God has dealt to each a measure of faith".

C.A.M. Do you not think it a difficult thing to arrive at -- the measure of faith?

J.T. I do. But to form a true estimate of oneself is of great importance. Not to assume you are more than you are, nor pretend to be less. It is what God has made you, and involves the giving up of all fleshly sentiment amongst the people of God. We are then simple, free, and transparent with each other, and in our relations one with the other.

J.S. Alluding to the tabernacle, you have each board standing on its own sockets, but in relation to the others.

G.W.W. I would suggest that, as well as the rings, there were the bars. The believer must accept his responsibility to take the bars. I think there are a great many who are glad for the sockets of silver, and for the overlaying of the gold, but the moment we come to the question of taking the bars there is a tremendous amount of work to be done. You do not want to let the bars go by without your having a link with them. The bars speak of the unity of the Spirit, and what the Spirit is maintaining here; the believer has to accept his responsibility in that connection.

J.S. According to the measure of faith.

J.T. It is the apprehension one has of the divine thought. It is only in thus apprehending that one can have one's place in the tabernacle. "See ... that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount" (Hebrews 8:5). The pattern is Christ.

Rem. In verse 3 we get: "As God has dealt to each a measure of faith", but in verse 6 it is, "according to the grace which has been given to us". The faith is dealt and the grace is given.

J.S. I suppose you really come to the divine pattern here. You have the reflex of Christ.

C.A.M. A practical difficulty in my mind (granting you have a sense of the measure of your faith) is that we are told here: "As to honour, each taking

the lead in paying it to the other" -- how that is to work in all?

J.T. We have to wait on one another, and be subject to one another. So that what underlies christianity is the spirit of mutuality. That is always a check on clericalism.

W.L.P. In what sense do we wait on one another?

J.T. There certainly ought to be, as together, a sense that there are others present who may have grace to participate as well as oneself.

B.T.F. A great check to clericalism would be in souls entering into their responsibility as being in the body.

J.T. If we have neither faith dealt to us nor grace given to us we are not christians, but as having both we are obligated to contribute to the end that all should be edified.

Ques. You were making a distinction between the body and what we have here, "one body in Christ". What was the distinction?

J.T. Let us see how it reads: "For, as in one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office; thus we, being many, are one body in Christ, and each one members one of the other". Now, that is what is in the body. You have to go to Colossians for "the body". Where you come to the expression, "of the body", you have a definite thing, distinct from other things; so in Colossians Christ is said to be "the head of the body, the assembly". That is the whole body. Here in Romans it is "one body in Christ", because it is a question of laying the basis of unity. It is no more than that, you and I are members of the same body in Christ.

G.W.W. It is the body looked at as present, at any given moment, in this world. It is that in which one is as long as one is here.

J.McN. This is the body held in the sense of responsibility.

J.T. You take part in the meeting according to the measure of faith dealt to you, and grace given, not according to the measure of knowledge of doctrine.

G.W.W. We apprehend what our present position is in relation to the divine system here, and if we get that in our souls, we shall understand how to conduct ourselves towards man's system.

J.T. Chapter 13 shows how you conduct yourself in regard of the powers that are ordained of God.

G.W.W. Yes. That is man's system.

B.T.F. These chapters not only give us instruction as to how we should act with each other, but supply important thoughts as to how we should walk through this world.

J.T. At the end of this chapter we read, "If therefore thine enemy should hunger, feed him; if he should thirst, give him drink ... Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good". That is a great moral triumph.

Rem. Really, the turning point comes with verse 17. "Recompensing to no one evil for evil: providing things honest before all men". All men are introduced. Then, it goes on to say, "If possible, as far as depends on you, living in peace with all men; not avenging yourselves, beloved, but give place to wrath; for it is written, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, saith the Lord". That is the turning point as to what is outside, and leads on to the way you should treat your enemy, and being subject to the powers that be.

G.W.W. You cannot expect man's system to regulate itself by the principles of christianity; but we are to be regulated by these principles.

J.T. Chapter 13 is dealing, not with christianity, but with what existed before it -- government as set up by God.

G.W.W. We have to learn that the blessed Lord came into this scene and found certain conditions here; He acted according to God in those conditions -- He did not seek to change them. Herod was on the throne, but He did not interfere. He moved through it all to the pleasure of God. So, in our measure, we move through what was in existence before we came into being; we found it here, and must act according to God in relation to it.

J.T. What the apostle is dealing with is not what was set up at Babel, but in Nebuchadnezzar; he alludes to that government which had been introduced by God. It is remarkable that in Zechariah 6 the four gentile monarchs are alluded to as "the four spirits of the heavens". It is a very remarkable fact that their government is out of heaven. The principle of it is that the heavens rule. This was introduced in Noah, had been taken up in Israel, and then in Nebuchadnezzar. It is of God; the christian is here and is not going to set aside that which is of God.

J.D.S. That is very important. It is not that I have to submit to something which is evil; but to that which is ordained of God. The authorities are really acting for God in the sphere in which God has put them; it is their responsibility to do so.

J.T. If there is any man in the world who regards government in its right light, it is the christian. He has learned in his soul what the rule of God is morally, so that he can take account of government -- what it is in the abstract.

Rem. Another point the christian should observe is that it is not a question whether the ruler is good or bad; it is rule, therefore he is subject to it. Where this very chapter was written it is very probable that the one who was ruling was Nero or someone not much better. It helps us to see this, because if Paul could write thus under that rule, we can observe and obey under any rule.

J.T. There is no idea put forth that the government may not miscarry -- those in office may dishonour the office. I suppose every one did. Nebuchadnezzar certainly did, and God virtually said to him: I cannot have government dishonoured in you, the first vessel I have taken up in this way: "They shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field ... till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will". This was fulfilled, and at length the needed lesson was learned. "And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me". As if God would give the world government through a man's heart. So he learned that the heavens rule and, when he lifted up his eyes to heaven, he became as a man, instead of a beast (see Daniel 4).

J.D.S. Is not the argument that government is good? The point in this scripture is not that it is bad, therefore I think, if we contemplate it as being bad, it is not exactly the idea in this scripture.

J.T. The gentile monarchs are symbolised by four horses which are said to be "the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth ... Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country" (Zechariah 6:5,8). So God, in that way, is served by these horses. They have not hearts like men; but He can control them. Over against that, in the same chapter, you have a Priest upon His throne, who isa Man. That is what we have.

G.W.W. A brother came back from dwelling amongst savages, and was sitting at table with his host, when the tax collector passed in his bill. The host, rather grumbled about the tax collector and the bill, but the brother said, 'If you had been where

I have been, amongst savages, you would thank God for the tax collector'.

Rem. I remember a man who was not a believer, but a prominent, intelligent man in the world, who said to me, 'I would not like to live in any country in this world where the Bible was not respected'. It is the restraining power there is for good in such instances.

J.T. That there is provision made for the conscience of a christian by some governments today shows that God is overruling. We should recognise this, and thank Him for it. There will be no allowance made for a believer's conscience under the beast (see Revelation 13). The dragon will give to him his power.

READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (12)

Romans 16:1 - 27

A.F.M. What would you say is the object of these last chapters of this epistle?

J.T. I suppose, to apply the truth in a practical form to the saints in their varied relations, beginning with chapter 12. That chapter adjusts us in relation to one another, chapter 13 in regard of the government of the world outside, chapter 14 in regard of those who are weak in the faith; that is, there is consideration in the kingdom of God for the weak; instead of as in the world, the weak going to the wall, they are to be supported in the kingdom of God. In chapter 15 the Lord is brought in as a Pattern for us -- One who did not please Himself. In connection with the weak ones, we are not to please ourselves. The suggestion of what Christ is in that way leads on to the apostle's remarks about himself and his ministry. Chapter 16 is what you might call a letter of commendation. Chapter 14 is very applicable to the present time in view of questions arising which have to be settled with the Lord.

A.A.T. What kind of questions?

J.T. Questions arising from government claims and such like. The authority of the Lord is emphasised in chapter 14 so that each individual involved is directly responsible to the Lord. Motives have not to be judged by others.

B.T.F. We have care for each other in chapter 14 -- the spirit of a brother, that is, care for the weak ones, as you were saying.

J.T. In the kingdom of God the weak are supported, in contrast to what is seen in the kingdom of men.

A.N.W. I suppose the great difficulty today is to determine who are weak. What is this kind of weakness?

J.T. "Him that is weak in the faith", it says. It does not suppose that his will is active. Scripture does not provide for that.

A.N.W. The question is as to how you are to know whether the will is at work or not.

J.T. Evidently from the instructions referred to, the weak are assumed to be known.

W.C.R. They appear to be actually weak here. It is really weakness, not will.

A.N.W. The apostle is very careful not to link himself with them. He links himself with the strong.

J.T. "We that are strong".

A.F.M. I suppose it contemplates a Jew newly come to the faith.

A.A.T. A gentile too.

J.T. I do not know about that. I do not suppose the apostle would make a provision for a heathen festival. The day of which he speaks would undoubtedly be a day accredited under the old economy. First of all, the thing is to determine the status of such a one as this, which the first verse does, "Now him that is weak in the faith receive, not to the determining of questions of reasoning". He is not to be received to the determining of doubtful questions. He is not admitted into the counsels of the saints, he is not as yet qualified to judge of things.

W.L.P. But he is in fellowship, is he not?

J.T. Surely; but you would not place him under obligation to judge -- he has rather to be carried. I think that is the first thing to determine -- the status of this man; he is classified as weak.

Rem. The apostle condemns the Galatians for observing days.

J.T. When it became a recognised custom, then it was evil; but this is simply the matter of a man not being able to get beyond as to his conscience, hitherto recognised. He is unable to see that one day has no moral value above another day.

C.A.M. You would say he was not a spiritual man. A spiritual man would be free.

A.F.M. He would be marked by spiritual judgment, which was lacking in this case.

B.T.F. You would say we get great principles in this chapter; but we do not get the same condition of things now.

J.T. Hardly, because days observed in christendom are heathenish in their origin, and I do not suppose the Spirit of God would make provision for them. This, I suppose, would refer to days recognised under the law.

A.A.T. I have heard this scripture quoted to support people being received into fellowship who are weak, especially, when the ones in question were the children of the saints. We have heard much of late as to being sure that those who are received have on the best robe, and have the Spirit, and so on.

J.T. They ought to have the Spirit, I am sure; but it is quite obvious in christianity that the weak are not to be left out in the cold to look after themselves.

J.B. What is the contrast between the weak spoken of in verse 1 of chapter 14, and those in verse 1 of chapter 15?

J.T. I think it is the continuation of the same subject, only chapter 15 emphasises the obligation of the strong. Instead of stumbling the weak, you are to support them. As it says: "But we ought, we that are strong, to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves". It seems to me, the point is to establish that in christianity, or in the kingdom of God, the weak are to be taken care of.

It would be a poor thing if we should leave weak christians to look after themselves; it would not be in keeping with the spirit of christianity.

W.L.P. The main thing would be to support them.

J.T. As it says in chapter 15, "We ought, we that are strong, to bear the infirmities of the weak". The opening verses of chapter 15 are really an amplification of chapter 14 in regard to the obligations of the strong. "But we ought, we that are strong, to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each one of us please his neighbour with a view to what is good, to edification. For the Christ also did not please himself; but according as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproach thee have fallen upon me".

A.N.W. Is not the whole instruction addressed to those who are strong rather than the weak?

J.T. That is the point. It is the obligation of the strong. It is a poor thing if in christianity there is not care. The weak have to be cared for.

A.F.M. Would you say a little more about the kingdom of God, in relation to chapter 14, as a sphere of protection for the weak?

J.T. What it is, is stated in a very terse way: "The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit". That is what it is; but then, the thought of the Lord is enlarged upon. If you will observe, first it says as regards the weak: "Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own master he stands or falls. And he shall be made to stand; for the Lord is able to make him stand. One man esteems day more than day; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regards the day, regards it to the Lord. And he that eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he that does not eat, it is

to the Lord that he does not eat, and gives God thanks. For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself. For both if we should live, it is to the Lord we live; and if we should die, it is to the Lord we die: both if we should live then, and if we should die, we are the Lord's". Then, further it says: "For it is written, I live, saith the Lord, that to me shall bow every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then each of us shall give an account concerning himself to God".

W.B-t. It seems to come in in very strong contrast to the general idea of the survival of the fittest. I was just wondering as to how it works out amongst us.

J.T. Certainly it is not the principle here of 'might is right'. Here, the strong use their strength for the support of the weak.

W.C.R. Is not the question of individual conscience brought before us? "Let not him that eats make little of him that eats not; and let not him that eats not judge him that eats". So there is to be the recognition of one another's conscience.

J.T. That is what I see at the present time. The Lord being brought in in such a prominent way, we have to learn to leave each other with the Lord in certain things, assured that the Lord is able to make the brother stand in regard of any weakness he may evince.

C.A.M. The matter of eating and the observing of days would apply only in principle to us; it would refer to other matters really, would it not?

J.T. There are a great many things today which might be easily enumerated, which have to be left with each one involved, in the light of the Lord -- that He will help each of us. Of course, no allowance for our wills can be made.

C.A.M. That is where my difficulty comes in. You could not go on with a person, even if they

were weak, if they were allowing what was wrong, could you?

J.T. One could not. Only, it is a question of helping him if you see his conscience cannot overcome a thing which he once observed. You would seek to help him -- you would not judge his motives. You would be assured, if the Lord converted him, that He would take him out of that slough of despond.

A.N.W. You might be quite right in enquiring as to whether he did it as unto the Lord.

J.T. Quite so. The test would be as to what he had before him in it.

W.C.R. You would endeavour to bring his conscience up to the light, that he might be free.

B.T.F. Is the weakness referred to here largely a point of the education of conscience?

J.T. Yes. The weakness refers to defectiveness as to the faith. "Him that is weak in the faith". I suppose "the faith" there refers to the system of christianity. It is not that he has not faith in his soul; but he is not fully instructed as regards the principles of christianity.

A.F.M. There are two things brought before us. First, the respect due to individual conscience and responsibility to the Lord; then, the protective care that the strong should exercise toward the weak.

J.T. Yes, and the position in which such a one is as regards the Lord. He rules over both the dead and the living. You could not go on without the greatest dismay and discouragement as regards the saints, unless you took that into account -- that the Lord is ruling over the dead and living. As Paul elsewhere says, "I have confidence in you through the Lord" (Galatians 5:10). You could not go on otherwise.

W.B-t. I do not understand His ruling over the dead and living.

J.T. He has authority over both -- those who have gone to be with the Lord are under His sway, just as they were when here in the body, and under His care too.

W.B-t. That was clearly seen on the mount of transfiguration, where two of them appear. You think it means then, not morally dead, but physically dead.

J.T. Yes, I think it refers to those physically dead here. "If we should live then, and if we should die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ has died and lived again, that he might rule over both dead and living".

W.B-t. In regard to "the faith", is it the thought of God bringing in His Man and disposing of the man after the flesh?

J.T. That is involved in it surely. "The faith" is a remarkable expression. I doubt if it could be used in regard of any other dispensation, because things are entirely on that principle now. If it is simply 'faith' it is a question of the state of your soul; but 'the faith' I understand to be the truth of christianity.

Rem. "Whatever is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23).

J.T. But that is faith as to the state of your soul; but "the faith" is the system of christianity.

Rem. "Follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart" (2 Timothy 2:22).

J.T. That is faith simply.

C.A.M. "The faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3).

J.T. That is "the faith". "This is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith" (1 John 5:4). "Our faith" that is the christian's faith -- the system of truth held by faith in the saints.

J.McN. Having faith would be, being fully persuaded in your own mind as it says in verse 5, "Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind".

J.T. Surely, only the thing is that one should be fully initiated in all the principles of christianity so as to be in "the faith".

Ques. Could you substitute the word 'truth' for 'faith'?

J.T. The truth is a different idea, but "the faith", I believe, covers the whole system of truth that is held in the soul. If it is "the faith" it is not simply what is in a creed -- it is held in the souls of men. "The law" was the term under which the old dispensation was referred to, whereas the new dispensation is "in faith".

W.B-t. The distinction is maintained in John 17"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth". It is a different thought from "the faith" here.

J.T. The principle in connection with "the truth" is that it adjusts us. In the giving of the law, there is nothing said about man receiving it on the principle of faith, whereas on the day of the Lord's resurrection it is emphasised throughout that the disciples did not believe. As if to say, aside from faith the dispensation cannot be inaugurated. The whole point in the Lord's movements and actions on the first day after He arose was to establish faith. He upbraided the eleven as they sat at meat because they did not believe the testimony of those who had seen Him after He was risen. That was the reason why He upbraided them. As much as to say, If you do not believe testimony, the dispensation cannot be inaugurated. Even the apostles, although they were accustomed to seeing Him, were placed by Him in such a position that they must believe accredited testimony. Before the Lord appeared to the eleven after He arose, He is careful to hide Himself. He appears to this one and that one, all to put them under obligation to believe accredited testimony. They must learn to believe thus because that

is the ground on which the dispensation is to be inaugurated -- it is "God's dispensation, which is in faith".

W.L.P. Will you explain that a little?

J.T. Let us look at Mark 16:5, "And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right, clothed in a white robe, and they were amazed and alarmed; but he says to them, Be not alarmed. Ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, the crucified one. He is risen, he is not here; behold the place where they had put him". Then verse 9: "Now when he had risen very early, the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary of Magdala, out of whom he had cast seven demons. She went and brought word to those that had been with him, who were grieving and weeping. And when these heard that he was alive and had been seen of her, they disbelieved it. And after these things he was manifested in another form to two of them as they walked, going into the country; and they went and brought word to the rest; neither did they believe them. Afterwards as they lay at table he was manifested to the eleven, and reproached them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen him risen". That is the way the Spirit of God brings forward this great point of faith. They had missed it. They did not believe all these witnesses; so I believe the point the Lord desired to emphasise in speaking to the eleven apostles was that the saints throughout the dispensation should accustom themselves to receiving accredited testimony. Now we have the Scriptures. The apostles all saw the Lord and Paul makes a point of the fact that he too saw Him.

W.C.R. When the resurrection is in question, in 1 Corinthians 15, the apostle speaks of all those who saw Him.

J.T. Yes, he makes a great point of those to whom He appeared.

A.F.M. Would you also add the testimony of the Spirit?

J.T. Quite, although there is nothing further said; the testimony is complete in the Scriptures.

C.A.M. In 1 John we have three witnesses. Would you regard that as the testimony to be believed, in that way?

J.T. Quite. "For they that bear witness are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one". "And it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth".

C.A.M. Is not the weakness with us that we are not able to recognise the testimony of the Spirit?

J.T. Yes, I would say that He witnesses to the whole truth.

A.N.W. A contrast in the character of the dispensation would be seen in John the baptist. He had a fit of depression in the prison, whereas the most precious testimony we have as to Christ in the present dispensation emanated from prisons. It is a dispensation of faith.

B.P. Why were miracles introduced at the beginning of christianity?

J.T. For those who believed not. The miracles were a witness to the power of God. As we read in Mark 16"The Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs following upon it". In the synoptic gospels miracles are intended to confirm the preaching, just as a bell on a church tower calls the people in. But John's gospel is like what is inside after the people come in. John's gospel gives us signs. You would not attempt to call a man a mile away by a sign, it would be by a noise, like the bell in the tower. To those inside, the signs signify something. So John gives us signs, and they

are to lead us to have faith in the Son of God. Of course, the signs in John were works of power, but I speak of how they are presented.

A.J.D. It says in 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10: "Ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; and to wait for his Son from heaven".

J.T. They believed the testimony and turned to God.

A.F.M. Those who receive this authentic testimony require no proof, do they? If you were asked to prove anything today you would have a difficulty, would you not?

J.T. Yes, you might; of course, the walk and ways of spiritual christians avail as testimony.

Rem. "Blessed they who have not seen and have believed" (John 20:29). That is faith.

J.T. "The faith" is the system of christianity.

W.C.R. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5).

W.L.P. It requires faith to be connected with "the faith".

J.T. The principle of it is that faith is in men's souls, and they hold the truth thus. The truth is held by faith, not as in a creed.

A.A.T. Was it possible to be one of God's people in the previous dispensation without faith?

J.T. Faith was in Abel and in all those who followed in his line, as we learn from Hebrews 11, but you do not find "the faith" referred to in the Old Testament.

J.McN. It appears from verse 6, that one weak in "the faith" had "faith".

J.T. At any rate he recognises the Lord, that is the point. As long as a brother recognises the Lord you have hope of him, although he may be defective.

W.C.R. Verse 13 presents the obligation of the stronger ones: "Let us no longer therefore judge one another; but judge ye this rather, not to put a stumbling-block or a fall-trap before his brother".

C.A.M. And again the end of verse 15: "Destroy not him with thy meat for whom Christ has died".

A.N.W. The weak brother is not to judge the strong, and the strong brother not to despise the weak one. There is to be mutual consideration.

J.T. The point is that, although weak, he is a brother.

C.A.M. Would you say that this is helpful at the present moment? In spite of all the difference of thought about a great many things, we can go on together in the light of this.

J.T. Yes. I think we can go on together in the light of this, although differing, provided we have the Lord before us. If we have the Lord before us, we can leave each other with Him. Still we should be always exercised so as to be of one mind.

A.N.W. I think that is confirmed in verse 18: "For he that in this serves the Christ is acceptable to God and approved of men". It seems to adjust it all in regard of Christ, God and men. Our exercise should be to be approved of by one another as well as by God.

Ques. Would you be quite happy to have a brother in fellowship now who kept days and feasts?

J.T. No, not now, because these things have been exposed to us. But we have to put ourselves in the position of the saints at Rome in those days. Great consideration was required.

W.C.R. I have heard you say that christianity is not like the governments of the world. They have immigrant officers at the ports who do not allow any weak subjects to enter, whereas, we have to take them in, care for them, and nourish them.

J.T. Our strength becomes serviceable in that way. If I have surplus of strength there is a good opportunity to make use of it.

C.A.M. This chapter is the kingdom chapter, is it not? God's kingdom.

J.T. It does not develop the truth of the kingdom. It only shows that in the kingdom of God provision is made for the weak. It is not the whole truth of the kingdom; it is said to be, "not eating and drinking; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 14:17). So that the one who is in the kingdom of God is not going to have a difference with a brother over a matter of meat and drink.

C.A.M. Where would you draw the line as to what involves fellowship?

J.T. Anything that would set aside what one might call the commandments of the Lord. "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me" (John 14:21). If the will of the Lord is thwarted in any way then you would raise the question as to fellowship; but this liberty is not contravening the will of the Lord, in fact, what the weak brother is doing is to the Lord.

J.B. In chapter 14 we have indicated what it is to be weak in "the faith"; but in chapter 15 what is brought before us is more as to how the strong are to help the weak, and get them into the good of "the faith".

J.T. Chapter 15 sets Christ before us as an example: "For the Christ also did not please himself; but according as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproach thee have fallen upon me". Hence, we have to learn, as in the kingdom of God, to bear the infirmities of the weak and, in doing so, we follow in the steps of the Lord -- that is what He did, and it is thus that we please God. Chapter 15 pursues the subject until we reach the thought of unity. In verses 5 - 7 Paul says: "Now the God of endurance and of encouragement give to you to be like-minded one toward another, according to Christ Jesus: that ye may with one accord, with one mouth, glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore receive ye one another, according as the

Christ also has received you to the glory of God". The Spirit of God does not leave us under the impression that christianity is composed of disunited people; He never stops short in His aim of perfection. So if there be differences among the saints we are not to assume that these are justifiable; the reason of these is that there is weakness in "the faith". But the aim of the Spirit is "that ye may with one accord, with one mouth, glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ".

A.A.T. In giving an outline of the various chapters, you spoke of chapter 14 as being one which had special application today in view of the claims of the government. The questions that our brother has raised about drawing the line between what does not interfere with fellowship and what does is important; there is divergence of mind as to how far certain claims can be acceded to.

J.T. There is a limit beyond which we cannot go. I am only referring to general principles. We have to take account of things as they are, and have respect for individual conscience, in so far as there is no insubjection, that the individual has the Lord before him, and is not acting in self-will; he is doing what he has liberty to do before the Lord. We have to leave brethren with the Lord. But, as I remarked, the Spirit of God does not leave us with the impression that we have reached a perfect state of things, nor such as is altogether pleasing to God. At the same time, His aim is "that ye may with one accord, with one mouth, glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ". Therefore, we have that before us constantly, and, at every opportunity, would seek to adjust each other so that we might be strong in "the faith".

The last chapter is very important although it may seem otherwise. It is important as commencing with a letter of commendation. The apostle takes

occasion, evidently, of Phoebe's going to Rome to write this letter, sending it by her, who is commended to the saints as, "Our sister, who is minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea". And, in commending her, he is led on to send salutations to a number of the brothers and sisters in Rome. Thus serving, I think, on the one hand to indicate what a letter of commendation is, and, on the other hand, how it tends to strengthen the links that exist among the people of God in different localities.

A.A.T. Would she have been received without this letter?

J.T. It is not simply that she should be received; but that she should be assisted as well. She is to be received worthily of saints. It says: "Receive her in the Lord worthily of saints, and that ye may assist her in whatever matter she has need of you". So that she is committed to their affectionate care and interest.

J.B. She is a characteristic sister.

J.T. Yes. She represents the activity of the Spirit on the feminine side amongst the saints. She is said to be a "minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea". It is remarkable that a woman should thus be designated.

A.F.M. So that a letter of commendation supposes that there is something to commend in the person about whom you write. There was something substantial here!

J.T. In a brother or sister being commended to a gathering, having changed their residence, they are added to that gathering. What you are adding to the gathering is denoted by the letter.

Ques. Is the character of Phoebe's ministry given in verse 2?

J.T. "She also has been a helper of many, and of myself". The point is, she did whatever was

needed to be done. The word 'minister' here does not mean merely menial service; evidently she ministered to the needs of the saints.

Ques. What is conveyed to us in the salutations -- so many are mentioned by name?

J.T. The Spirit of God reminding us that He has His eye on each one of us. If the Lord were to single us out and tell us publicly what His estimate of us is, it would be very exercising.

J.B. What would be the difference between those "in Christ" and those "in the Lord"?

J.T. The thought is very much akin. "In the Lord" brings in His authority: one so designated is subject. "In Christ" would be that the person had that spiritual status.

Rem. It is a kind of genealogy. It is not simply the Lord indicating that they are His.

J.T. We may regard it as a roll of honour. It is the Spirit of God showing us that every one is under the eye of the Lord, and taken account of according to spiritual merits. If you run down the chapter you will see the different shades of merit accorded. Prisca and Aquila come first. You will notice Prisca is mentioned first, and of them it says: "Salute Prisca and Aquila, my fellow-workmen in Christ Jesus, (who for my life staked their own neck; to whom not I only am thankful, but also all the assemblies of the nations,) and the assembly at their house". I suppose this sister and her husband would be the most estimable couple in the whole of Rome. Then we have a brother mentioned simply as "my beloved". "Salute Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the firstfruits of Asia for Christ". That is all he has to say about him; and so on down the chapter we get different shades of spiritual merit pointed out.

C.A.M. This is the apostle's own thought about them.

J.T. He was really giving the Lord's estimate of them. Being inspired, the passage would set forth the Lord's estimate of each one named.

A.F.M. Does the chapter afford us marks of a spiritual man, and show how he regards the saints -- the facts about them, which should govern him in his prayers?

J.T. There are certainly saints who stand out prominently in your mind as identified with the Lord's interests. One has constantly before one certain men and women who are especially identified with the truth and for whom we pray especially.

Pages 171 to 439. "The Assembly, its Order and Power", Germany 1929, 1933 and 1935 (Volume 195).

THE OUTWARD ORDER OF THE ASSEMBLY (1)

Luke 22:7 - 20; John 13:1 - 5

J.T. The assembly is to be characterised by outward order, but also by inward spiritual power. The outward order we find in the first three gospels, specially in that of Luke. John brings in the second characteristic, the inward power. The first three gospels give us a comparatively short account of what happened at the inauguration of the Supper, while John devotes five chapters to it (John 13 - 17). The outward order in the first three gospels is a matter of our responsibility, whereas in the gospel of John, where it is a matter of the inner side, the Lord Himself takes over the responsibility of everything.

In Matthew and Mark the disciples ask the Lord where they should prepare the passover (Matthew 26:17 and Mark 14:12). They made the proposal concerning the necessary preparations. In the verses read in Luke 22, however, it simply says that the Lord sent Peter and John and said to them, "Go and prepare the passover for us, that we may eat it". In Luke the Lord initiated the matter. Today also the Lord gives us the incentive to prepare ourselves for the Supper.

In John 13:1 it says, "Now before the feast of the passover, Jesus, knowing that his hour had come". It is not a matter that the hour was come, as in Luke 22:14, where the outward preparations of the disciples had come to a close, but in John 13 the Lord's hour had come, "during supper", when He wished to prepare His disciples for the Father. Jesus rose from supper in this His hour, and poured water into a washhand basin and began to wash the

feet of the disciples. Then He said to Peter, "Unless I wash thee, thou hast not part with me". Instead of the outward order we have here the truth that we have part with Christ in the spiritual blessings of the assembly before God, the Father, and that the Lord must prepare us for it. The preparations for the outward side are left to us, but in what relates to the inward side we must leave ourselves completely in the Lord's hands, for He alone knows what is necessary before the Father.

Rem. Perhaps you will tell us something more as to the outward order of the assembly. I thought we could first consider this.

Ques. Have we that in the first epistle to the Corinthians?

J.T. Yes. The first epistle to the Corinthians is addressed "to the assembly of God which is in Corinth". It is clear that if God has an assembly in Corinth, it should be marked by outward order. Even the types in the Old Testament show how much God regards order. In Exodus the smallest details are given of the construction and the vessels of the tabernacle of testimony. The same applies also to the temple which Solomon built. With David we see in type the inner side of the truth, for he "built round about from the Millo and inward" (2 Samuel 5:9). This is the ministry of John in whose gospel the disciples on the evening of the resurrection day were behind closed doors (John 20:19). In John's gospel everything comes to this; it is not a matter of that which is visible outwardly, but of what is inward.

Ques. Have we in Acts 2 the outward and inward sides of the assembly?

J.T. There we only find what is visible outwardly. The parted tongues as of fire sat upon each one of them, while in John 20, the Lord breathed into them.

Ques. When have we to do with the outward order?

J.T. When we are assembled to break bread we must first think of the outward order. The Lord in Luke 22 sent Peter and John to deal with the outward preparations, for these are left to us. At the breaking of bread we begin with the outward and public side and then pass over to the inner side. We announce the death of the Lord (1 Corinthians 11:26); that is a public matter. If we take the tabernacle of testimony as a type, the slaughtering of the sacrifices took place in the court, it was visible from outside. If anyone was not a priest and thus could not go inside, he still could see the outer curtains of the tabernacle, and these were made of the skins of slain animals (Exodus 26:14). In that way death was publicly announced.

Ques. How do the two epistles to Timothy fit in with this?

J.T. The first epistle to Timothy deals with the outward order, and the second epistle the breakdown of christendom. But even in the days of breakdown we must still move in the light of 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians, for 2 Timothy is addressed to one who had heard Paul's words (2 Timothy 2:2) and who had been thoroughly acquainted with Paul's teaching (2 Timothy 3:10).

Ques. Is it of special importance that the Lord sent Peter and John?

J.T. In the early chapters of the Acts Peter and John are frequently found together. Peter is marked by experience and in both of his epistles he stresses the matters of outward order and administration. John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, is marked by love and in his gospel he brings in the inner side. It would be well if there were a Peter and a John in every local assembly. They are both necessary to maintain outward order.

Rem. The place was pre-arranged, where they should prepare the passover.

J.T. Yes, that is right. Peter and John asked the Lord, "Where wilt thou that we prepare it?". The Lord mentions the place, namely "a large upper room furnished", there they were to make ready. Then even the hour is mentioned when the meeting was to commence (verse 14). It says then, the Lord sat down at table, or more correctly translated, "he placed himself at table". That is very important, for it shows that we should sit together in restfulness.

Ques. Punctuality, I suppose, belongs also to the obedience which is due to the Lord?

J.T. "When the hour was come", shows that we should all be punctual. "He placed himself at table, and the twelve apostles with him" shows how we should comport ourselves at the breaking of bread. Anyone who frequently comes late has certainly little idea of what it means to prepare the passover. "The hour" is the time when we have arranged the meeting.

In Matthew, and similarly in Mark, it says, "When the evening was come" (Matthew 26:20), also in John 13 the Lord washed the disciples' feet during supper, but in Luke 22:14, it says, "When the hour was come". Many think we ought to break bread in the evening, because according to the first two gospels the Lord inaugurated it on an evening. But Luke, who, as a companion of Paul, has more his ministry in mind leaves the hour open for us. We have arranged the hour for the breaking of bread on Lord's day morning. When the hour was come Jesus placed Himself at table and the apostles with Him. The Lord showed them and us how we should sit in the meeting and the apostles copied the Lord. It does not say that He took His place with them at table, but they with Him. The apostles imitated all

the movements of the Lord. The Lord gives them and us an example of right behaviour in the assembly. We have to learn all from the Lord, even the outward order of the assembly.

Ques. Should we at the breaking of bread be sitting in restfulness before Him?

J.T. Yes. He sat down restfully and we should do the same. To use a figure, if anyone were invited by a highborn gentleman, he would need to know how to behave in his presence. When the Lord at the Supper placed Himself at table and the apostles with Him, we should perceive from that that we are to be outwardly in a condition of restfulness. We should learn everything from the Lord. If we had been present when He was down here, we should have carefully observed all His actions and movements. Every spiritual christian wishes to do all as the Lord has done it. What a path we should tread, if in everything we adjusted ourselves according to the Lord, whom having not seen we love (1 Peter 1:8). Much is written about the Lord and this is very important for us, and we must receive the testimony of those who have seen Him. It is expressly said in Luke 22:14 that the apostles were with Him when He instituted the Supper. The apostles were persons who were in the position to bear a powerful testimony to what they had seen. We read in Acts 2:42 of the new converts that they continued in the teaching of the apostles, for the apostles taught with great authority. They emphasised that they were eye-witnesses of Christ, they were "eye-witnesses of and attendants on the Word" (Luke 1:2). In Luke 10:23 the Lord turned to them privately and said, "Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see"; they had evidently special eyes. Their words testified that they had actually seen the facts of which they spoke. We have all this in the written Word and also in the Holy Spirit.

Ques. Does outward order extend only to the assembly or also to our houses?

J.T. It should also be seen in our houses, but we are engaged just now with the assembly when it is convened. The first epistle to Timothy and other passages are occupied with our houses, but that is a wider sphere. We have now the assembly before us and what should mark it publicly when it is convened. The house of God in 1 Timothy 3:15 includes not only the assembly in a place as in 1 Corinthians, but it embraces all the believers in the whole world. The outward order which is to mark a local assembly should be found in every place. The order of God's house is the same everywhere; there is only one assembly over the whole world. If, however, it is a matter of the coming together of the assembly to break bread, that can only happen in many places, as we find in 1 Corinthians, where the house of God is not mentioned. There everything is local, whereas the house of God which is spoken of in 1 Timothy and in Ephesians is universal. In Luke 22 the Lord took His place at table and we can only have that in a locality, for the whole assembly over the world cannot possibly come together in one place and then sit down in restfulness together. The apostles who seated themselves at table with the Lord took care that in all the local assemblies on earth the same customs and practices should obtain, for the Lord sent them into the whole world.

Ques. Why did the Lord send Peter and John?

J.T. Peter in his epistles stresses outward order; he writes about what is seemly in the assembly, but John seeks to bring in love. To use a simple example: If Peter says to a sister who frequently comes late, 'You surely know the hour which we have agreed upon', then John says, 'But the sister has several little children whom she has to attend to

before she can come, we must have patience with her'. John prevents the administration of Peter from being too strict. That, of course, applies only to the principles which governed the two apostles. Peter had also love and John also went in for order, but if Peter insisted that this must be done in such and such a way, then John would say, 'But we must not destroy brotherly love, but must uphold it at all costs, for the Lord has said, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves" (John 13:35)'. That is the preparation which John makes for the Supper. Peter and John set forth a wonderful blending of authority and brotherly love, and the Lord wishes to see this combination in every local assembly. He sent them both to prepare the passover, and only when two of that kind have prepared the Supper can we sit down together in peace.

Ques. Why does John in his gospel show that Thomas was absent from the first meeting in John 20?

J.T. John, in spite of all his love, does not give up righteousness, for love is never weak in the maintenance of order. But if John does write that Thomas was not present at the first meeting in John 20, he does also say earlier that Thomas was ready to die with the Lord. He had, therefore, true love for the Lord (see John 11:16).

Ques. Does Paul not hold on to the Corinthians with words of love, in spite of all the reprimands?

J.T. In Paul we see very beautifully a blending of authority and brotherly love. He writes to the Corinthians, "What will ye? that I come to you with a rod; or in love, and in a spirit of meekness?" (1 Corinthians 4:21). He leaves the decision in their hands. But instead of going himself, he sent to them Timotheus, his child in the Lord, so that through him

they might be reminded of Paul's ways as they are in Christ. Instead of having Paul among them with his rod, they had his "beloved and faithful child" Timotheus in Corinth, through whom Paul gave them his first epistle. I believe Timotheus visited the brethren in Corinth in their homes and admonished them to do what Paul writes to them in his first epistle. Perhaps Timotheus visited a very hard brother and told him that it would be a very serious matter for him to continue further in disobedience. Perhaps he might have referred to Ananias and Sapphira and also called attention to the close of the first epistle to the Corinthians, "If any one love not the Lord Jesus Christ let him be Anathema", that is, accursed. Timotheus certainly worked in this way with the Corinthians and he achieved more with Paul's epistle than if Paul himself had gone with the rod. Paul's rod is, "Am I not an apostle?" (1 Corinthians 9:1). Timotheus had no such rod; he shed tears, and tears are very valuable; they often bring about better results than the rod.

Ques. Had Peter and John only to make preparation for the passover or also for the breaking of bread?

J.T. The passover and the Lord's supper are in 1 Corinthians closely connected, even though they are distinguished from one another. In the gospels the two disciples prepared the passover. In Matthew, and similarly in Mark, it says, "As they were eating, Jesus, having taken the bread" (Matthew 26:26). They were actually eating the passover when the Lord made an interruption and instituted His Supper. Luke keeps the passover and the Lord's supper separate. In Luke 22:17 the Lord received a cup, that is, one of the passover cups which stood there. In verse 19 He took bread and in verse 20 He took the cup of which it says that it was taken "after having supped". In that way the Supper is carefully distinguished

from the passover meal. The Lord says in verse 18, "For I say unto you, that I will not drink at all of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God come". The passover according to its literal meaning has in that way ceased for us; in 1 Corinthians 5 we have its spiritual meaning and application to us, "our passover, Christ, has been sacrificed" (verse 7); that has happened once for all. But the next verse has its full application to us today, "so that let us celebrate the feast", that is, the feast of unleavened bread. In 1 Corinthians 10 and 11 we have then the Lord's supper. The passover and the Supper, although closely connected with one another, are thus kept distinct.

I should like to ask the brethren to receive a few words of adjustment in connection with our breaking of bread this forenoon. I do not wish to criticise but only to present the truth. We were too numerous here this morning, and that is not normal for the assembly. The evangelists Mark and Luke teach us that fifty or at the most one hundred is the normal size of an assembly; Mark 6:39,40, Luke 9:14. Because we did not keep to that, we were compelled to give thanks for a vessel from which however we did not drink; indeed we were even obliged to fill up with wine from bottles for which we had not given thanks. The scripture however says, "The cup of blessing which we bless" (1 Corinthians 10:16), and "as often as ye shall eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye announce the death of the Lord, until he come" (1 Corinthians 11:26). We should thus all drink out of the cup which has been blessed. In connection with the bread we should also eat only from one loaf, Of course, we had an abnormal gathering this morning. We should not normally do it in that way.

Ques. What would you then suggest doing when as this morning, three hundred brethren wish to break bread in one place?

J.T. Our Lord had five thousand people to feed and He made them sit down in ranks, in groups of fifty and one hundred. We have to do it according to that principle.

Ques. Can that be remedied by arranging several tables in one large room, each with the one loaf and one cup?

J.T. No, that would give confusion, for the different groups would disturb one another in singing and in worship. We can only remedy it when we divide ourselves into several companies and gather in different rooms. We find this principle in the Scriptures. For example Aquila and Priscilla had in Rome, and in Ephesus, an assembly in their house; Romans 16:3 - 5; 1 Corinthians 16:19. Certainly all the christians in Rome or in Ephesus could not come together in one house. When the company is too large, the brethren should gather in smaller companies in different houses. The Lord would receive far more praise from six companies, each of fifty, than from a large meeting of three hundred brethren.

Ques. But were there not five hundred together, for the Lord appeared to above five hundred at one time? (1 Corinthians 15:6).

J.T. Those were five hundred individual brethren who were together. The assembly is, however, an entity, it is the one pearl of great value (Matthew 13:46).

Ques. What would you say about these special meetings of ours in Germany? We only come together once a year in such large numbers.

J.T. That is something abnormal. But the Lord helps us greatly when we are prepared to divide ourselves up for the breaking of bread. We had for years the same difficulty in America and still have it. But it is slowly disappearing there, because the brethren divide themselves up. In Rochester we have had meetings for years when as large a number

of brethren were present as are here. There we come together now in four places to break bread. The Lord always gives us right thoughts, and also helps us in working them out.

Ques. Could we not put a large vessel on the table, full of wine, and after thanks had been given for it, then pour the wine into several cups and let these go round?

J.T. We had that this morning, but that does not agree with Matthew and Mark. The Lord says in Matthew 26:27, in regard to the cup for which He had given thanks, "Drink ye all of it", that means, out of this one cup which the Lord gave them. In Mark 14:23, it says, "And they all drank out of it"; that means out of the cup for which the Lord had given thanks, and which He gave to them. We are not wiser than the Lord. Thousands were converted in Jerusalem at Pentecost, but they actually broke bread in houses (Acts 2:46). After Pentecost the bread would have been broken in more than a hundred houses in Jerusalem. The breaking of bread was to remain a family celebration, even after Paul had made it an assembly occasion (see Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 11:18 to 20).

THE OUTWARD ORDER OF THE ASSEMBLY (2)

1 Corinthians 11:17 - 26

J.T. Yesterday we were considering the outward order and inward power of the assembly. Almost the whole of the time we were occupied with the outward order and I thought it would be well this morning to follow up the outward and public side. This afternoon, if the Lord will, we can proceed to the inner side. We saw yesterday that the Lord divided up a multitude of five thousand into sections, each of one hundred or of fifty, and I suggested that the brethren should commence to act according to this principle and, during large gatherings, divide themselves only for the breaking of bread, all being together in one large room for the readings and addresses.

Ques. What should we do at small local meetings? I know, for example, an isolated sister. Can I break bread with her when I am on a visit?

J.T. You could not possibly describe an isolated sister as an assembly. We were taught yesterday that the Lord sent Peter and John to make the necessary preparations, and they certainly would not have considered an isolated sister as sufficient for an assembly.

Ques. What does Matthew 18:20 refer to in saying, "For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them"?

J.T. In Matthew 18 the assembly is entrusted with the administration of the interests of Christ down here during His absence. "Tell it to the assembly" says the Lord, 'not to Me'. The verse which has been referred to is to show what two or three can do in the days of the failure and breakdown

of the assembly. In Luke 8:26 - 56 the material is indicated of which an assembly should consist. The man, who had earlier been possessed of demons, is sitting, clothed and sensible at the feet of Jesus. The woman had not had demons, but an internal malady; she had been healed and wanted to remain hidden. She fell down before the Lord and declared before all the people what had taken place in her. The Lord regards her now as belonging to the family, for He calls her "Daughter". Last of all we have the daughter of Jairus, who died and whom the Lord raised up again. These are three of such persons who can form an assembly; the man clothed and sensible sitting at Jesus' feet; the woman, healed of her infirmity, become transparent, for she told all the people the whole truth; and the twelve-year-old child whom the Lord had brought from death to life. This does not mean that these are only three persons, but they represent features which should be seen in a local assembly. At least two persons must be together in a place in order to break bread. An isolated sister and a visiting brother hardly form the requisite material for the assembly. The first epistle to the Corinthians is addressed to the assembly of God which is in Corinth, and one sister cannot be that.

Ques. Can several brethren travelling by ship to Australia, who are several Lord's days on the way, break bread on the ship?

J.T. We cannot make a ship which is constantly in motion into a place. It says in 1 Corinthians 1:2, "with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ". The apostle Paul commits the Lord's supper only to the assembly come together into one place. The assembly in a place such as Corinth is composed only of the brethren who reside there. Visiting brethren do not pass for local.

Ques. Why then did the Lord break bread with the two disciples at Emmaus? (Luke 24:30).

J.T. That was not the Lord's supper or the breaking of bread, but only a meal.

Rem. If some reside there who are already breaking bread, that is all right. It says here "the assembly of God which is in Corinth".

J.T. The word 'in' means that those people really belong to the place, not that they are there on a visit but that they are characterised by actually dwelling there. In Revelation 2 and 3 we have the same idea, "the assembly in Pergamos", "in Philadelphia", and so on. That shows that the component parts of the assembly should only be sought among the local brethren. Visiting brothers should not therefore put much value upon the fact that they are considered important. The important thing is that the constituent features of the assembly are to be found in those who are actually dwelling in the place. It says in 2 Corinthians 6:11, "Our mouth is opened to you, Corinthians", that is, to persons who were marked by dwelling in Corinth. The same applies also to "the assembly of Thessalonians" (1 Thessalonians 1:1). God regards us as local where we live.

Ques. Can we look on two brothers and two sisters living in a place as an assembly, if one brother has been ill for years?

J.T. The question is always whether assembly material is present. It is a matter of what the brethren there really are. Are they boards for the tabernacle? It is very important to see that God receives us into the assembly in the same place where we had formerly lived in our sins. God works in us, gives us forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit, and sets us upon our feet in the same place where we have dishonoured Him, so that we may glorify Him there. In this way we are boards standing upright on two silver bases (Exodus 26:15). Such

boards are then fitted together as an assembly in a locality, and the first epistle to the Corinthians is addressed to the assembly of God in Corinth, not to the brethren who are there. In the reading of that epistle we must hold to this firmly, for everything hinges on this truth. We find there everything that is becoming for the assembly of God in a place, but from chapter 11, verse 17 onwards, the assembly itself is also described. In 1 Corinthians 11:1 - 16, it is a matter of the suitable outward appearance of men and women, but from verse 17 onwards we have the coming together of the assembly. "When ye come together in assembly". That is a new thought which is further treated of in what follows. While the apostle had been with them he had given them instructions about it. He writes in verse 2, "Now I praise you, that in all things ye are mindful of me; and that as I have directed you, ye keep the directions". They kept the directions which Paul had given them. Now he writes further instructions and at the close of chapter 11 he says, "But the other things, whenever I come, I will set in order". We see from that how important the outward order of the assembly is. It is also important for us that every instruction given by the apostle be carefully paid attention to and obeyed. There may be local assemblies which have no care meeting.

Ques. What do you understand by a care meeting?

J.T. It is a meeting which takes care of the interests of God. If we get up in the morning, we consider for our bodies and our apparel, or a woman is occupied with her housekeeping. It says in the scripture that God makes "the barren woman to keep house, as a joyful mother of sons" (Psalm 113:9). If we would keep our local meetings in better order we should have more sons, more additions.

Ques. Can we not exercise care in the readings?

J.T. In every local company we should come together once a month and see if we are really answering to the light of first Corinthians. We should then see many things for the first time and could weigh them over prayerfully before the Lord. The Lord gives wisdom. We also have opportunity then for prayer. The word 'care' or 'take care' is in 1 Timothy 3:5, "how shall he take care of the assembly of God?". When the Lord sent Peter and John, these two were to take care of the preparations. The upper room furnished was in good order at the arranged time.

Ques. If there are only a few brethren in fellowship in a place, would you also recommend a care meeting?

J.T. Yes, the principle is always right and sound, to be concerned for God's assembly.

Ques. Could sisters break bread in a place where there are no brothers in fellowship?

J.T. Sisters alone do not form an assembly. We would have to admit, if we rightly understood the scripture, that it is not right for brothers to break bread without sisters. It says, "Let your women be silent in the assemblies" (1 Corinthians 14:34). It does not say, When your women are present in the assemblies, but this passage supposes that women are always present at the meetings.

Ques. How does a reception take place according to Scripture?

J.T. A reception always takes place on the ground of confidence and witness of two or three brothers who accurately know the person concerned. Barnabas brought Saul to the apostles (Acts 9:27). Barnabas was one witness that Saul was converted, and the other witness was Saul himself. The apostles had the full confidence of the assembly in Jerusalem when they commended Saul; then he was received by the assembly. It is therefore important

that at a reception the saints should hear statements from witnesses who have their unreserved confidence. The witnesses when visiting the one who wishes to be received should be careful that the person concerned is washing his robes. "Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city" (Revelation 22:14). The saints can only walk with those of whom testimony is given that they are washing their robes. Such have then a right to be in fellowship, and we admit that right in walking with them.

Rem. I once heard of a sister who knew something about a person who wished to be received, telling a brother about it and the reception was prevented.

J.T. Quite right. Therefore we announce to the saints that the person is such as we can walk with in the truth, and will break bread with us next Lord's day for the first time. That gives the sisters time to express themselves. It is the duty of a sister if she knows anything evil about the person concerned to bring it to light immediately. Paul came to know of the critical conditions at Corinth from the house of the sister Chloe (1 Corinthians 1:11).

Ques. Does the washing of the robes set forth inward preparation?

J.T. It is a continuous washing, it means walking in constant self-judgment.

Ques. In a place where only one family resides, is it right to break bread with them on the occasion of a visit?

J.T. It is a question of whether the individual members of the family are moving in the light of the assembly. If they are doing that, then you can break bread there. Only the surrounding meetings can decide that. Romans prepares the material for the assembly, the boards for the tabernacle. We must

first have the materials. In 1 Corinthians we have the setting up of the tabernacle, the assembly of God in Corinth. Romans 16 is occupied with the materials. If the family in question consisted of ten members, it becomes a question if all ten persons are boards. If so, one would have no difficulty in breaking bread there. A board can stand for itself on its two silver bases, that is, on "the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24) and a board can also stand for itself in the testimony. Such a one is not leaning on his father or mother or on his brother, but stands on his own feet.

Ques. Does that come to light at the end of Romans 7, "So then I myself with the mind serve God's law"?

J.T. Yes, that is the new mind of a board. The family is not then in the assembly as father, mother, brother and sister, but all are boards for the tabernacle. Seen outwardly, we are men and women in the meeting but inwardly we are boards. If wives want to ask something of their own husbands, they are not to do so in the assembly, but at home. We do not come together as in the flesh, but as believers.

Ques. In a meeting where the only brother cannot read, is it right that a sister should read the Scriptures aloud?

J.T. It says, "Let your women be silent in the assemblies", so it is not right.

Rem. But the sisters sing the hymns audibly with us.

J.T. We must always read Scripture in its setting. The silence in 1 Corinthians 14:34 obviously relates only to speaking and praying aloud, but not to singing, "for it is not permitted to them to speak; but to be in subjection". They were not to push themselves forward by speaking or praying aloud. During the singing the sisters have no occasion to bring themselves forward, for we all sing together.

It says here, "It is a shame for a woman to speak in assembly", and nothing is said as to singing. One person speaks alone while the others listen, and the same applies also to praying. It is shameful for a sister to speak or to pray, and in this way to be the mouthpiece of the assembly. It is quite different with singing, for all who are present are singing. For the same reason the sisters can also say "Amen" after a prayer.

Ques. What should then an assembly do if the only brother cannot read?

J.T. That is an exceptional case, but we should not transgress the Scripture on that account. If a sister is to read anything aloud it is at a private meeting, but never at a gathering in the light of God's assembly. If the Lord has gathered the material, there will then be no such difficulties, there will be a brother there who can read.

Ques. Whom should a sister ask, who has no husband?

J.T. Such a sister is at a disadvantage. She is wholly cast upon the Lord and He will not forsake her. In 1 Corinthians 11:3, the man (that is, the male) is the head of the woman (that is, female). It does not mean there husband and wife, but male and female. Thus if a sister has not "her own husband" she can easily find a brother who as head will gladly instruct her. Everything is very plain if only we are simple. If a sister for example has an unconverted husband she can certainly not ask him. We are children of wisdom and it is contrary to wisdom to ask an unconverted person anything relating to the assembly. If a sister is to ask her own husband at home, it is presumed that he is converted and in fellowship. The apostle says, "I speak as to intelligent persons" (1 Corinthians 10:15), and we surely have enough intelligence to know what to do in such a case.

Paul writes to the Corinthians, "But in prescribing to you on this which I now enter on, I do not praise, namely, that ye come together, not for the better, but for the worse". So we have here brethren coming together, but it would have been better for them not to come, for they only come together for the worse. There were parties and divisions among the Corinthians. In an outward way we may come together in assembly and yet be already divided in our hearts. The apostle Paul writes to them in the most definite way, "When ye come therefore together into one place, it is not to eat the Lord's supper", the Lord in that way through His servant pronouncing their coming together invalid. How serious when the Lord has to write to an assembly, 'You are not eating My Supper. I declare your assembly invalid'. There were divisions among the Corinthians, they were choosing special friends for themselves.

Ques. Did that not make the approved manifest among them?

J.T. That is right, but the apostle does not pursue that thought further. He admits that there were approved ones among them, but he is not occupied with them any further. The Corinthians professed to come together as an assembly to eat the Lord's supper, but the apostle declares their whole coming together to be null and void, because there were divisions among them. That shows how we can come together in our own strength and bring the Lord something that we think good, although the Lord has long since pronounced our coming together to be invalid. If we have not the Lord any longer with us, it may perhaps happen with us as with Mary and Joseph. They supposed Him "to be in the company that journeyed together" (Luke 2:44), but after a long search they did not find Him there. Perhaps we also think the Lord is with us when the actual state of the meeting where we are might well

convince us of the contrary. There really was a shameful state among the Corinthians, for each one took his own supper before others and one was hungry and another drunken. That shows how far astray christians can go in assembly matters. Perhaps even we are coming together with feelings of hatred against one another, and the Lord seeing that withdraws His presence from us. The apostle says that what he had delivered to them he had received from the Lord.

Ques. What is then to be done if the Lord has pronounced the meeting invalid?

J.T. Sober self-judgment is urgently necessary. For this reason the first epistle was written to them in order that they might deeply judge themselves on account of these things. When I said the Lord declared the meeting to be invalid I meant that He openly gave expression to His strong disapproval of them. The Lord did not come to them, for He only comes where there is love and not bitterness. Where bitterness exists, sober self-judgment is needful.