Pages 1 - 402 -- 'Ministry' 1935 (Volume 197).

CHRIST IN HIS SERVICE GODWARD

Hebrews 3:1,2; Hebrews 10:19 - 22; Exodus 28:5 - 30

J.T. The early verses of Exodus 21, which speak of the Hebrew servant, might be linked on with the early verses of chapter 28, which introduce the subject of the High Priest, the Hebrew servant, according to what is stated, being a type of Christ in the exercise of love in service, showing the attitude of mind that He took in becoming Man. Love would go to the utmost limit -- although itself unlimited -- to exercise the service of love, His love to God, and His love to the saints -- the church, then the saints being the children, but in self-abnegation, self-denial, all would be accepted that the service of love required. On the other hand Exodus 28 comes in and views the Lord -- the same Person -- in dignity, official dignity, so that He is rightly regarded in His service by the saints, by those He serves. That is why I read in connection with these passages the opening verses of Hebrews 3, where the saints are addressed as "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling". Then the passage shows that Christ is to be regarded in the light of the statement that He who builds the house is greater than the house. So that whilst He takes up the attitude of bondman in the service to show the lengths to which love will go, we are to regard Him in the house in His dignity as Son; His Person remains unchanged in the service. The garments in Exodus 28 refer to Him in His service; what He was as Man in service is in mind in all these habiliments. The Person is really hidden, the cloak being the long covering garment; He has taken on these things as in service; they are to be known in part, each part representing some feature of Christ in His service.

The next thing to note is that He is not on earth, He has gone into heaven, and the service is carried on in that setting, "minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man". So that the service He carries on is heavenly, and views the saints as heavenly, partakers of a heavenly calling. Chapters 8 and 9 show how He has become minister of a better covenant, the first being set aside to make room for the second.

Ques. Then this service is Godward on our behalf?

J.T. That is the view we have to take of it here. In chapters 2 and 4, He serves us in the sanctuary, but the Minister of the sanctuary is clearly in the tabernacle; that is the setting.

-- .M. Is that the significance of the expression "Such an high priest became us" (chapter 7:26)?

J.T. That is to call attention to the greatness of the Person who is high priest. The beginning of chapter 8 is a summary of what He has been, and that "we have such a one high priest" who has set Himself down "on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens".

Ques. Is it representation Godward?

J.T. The saints are so great -- it is a remarkable way to put it. He has made us great, because we are of Him: "For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren". Then at the beginning of chapter 8, "Such a one high priest" is the One "who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens". Who could do that but God? He has set Himself down. That is a very great position to get into our souls in regard to the Lord as the Minister of the sanctuary, and the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched and not man. He leads in the service Godward, I think.

Rem. If that thought were realised more fully what there would be in our meetings!

J.T. It would make room for it.

Rem. The nature of the service would be on account of that.

J.T. Yes, quite.

Ques. How would the Lord serve in that way?

J.T. "Such a high priest became us". "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling". We are a necessary part of the service according to chapter 2. He is Leader of our salvation, we are being led to glory. The great thought is the true tabernacle; the tabernacle is a figure of the heavens and the earth, but in the present time it is the heavenly side only; that is what is in view in Hebrews, going into heaven itself. So that the saints do not take on what is current, the character of earthly religion; they should be different. What is current in christianity is patterned after the old. The idea of the heavenly service is unknown in the Jewish system.

Ques. What answers to the holy places today?

J.T. We have to lay hold of the heavenly side of the thing. What is in mind is Israel's place and our place; all is worked out in the assembly in the light of the heavenly and the two merge in us. Israel is not in view yet. I think Israel's service will be outside the veil; ours is inside, that is "heaven itself".

Ques. Is it that our service should be in accord with the Minister?

J.T. We have to wait for the Minister; things must be regulated by Him. There are certain principles by which we are governed. To serve the living God there must be a living service, and we must wait for the Minister for He is in charge of the service.

But I think before we get to the service actually we ought to consider these features of the holy garments or habiliments for the priest, because they are to bring out what the saints are as viewed in relation to counsel; the breastplate is in relation to counsel. It is not the tribes viewed according to their birth, but

viewed according to the counsels of love. The order is not a mere automatic thing, according to birth, but it is according to the sovereignty of God, where He places His people. The two onyx stones on the shoulder mean the saints viewed as a family; we are sustained by the Lord as a family. But there is personal distinction on the breastplate, personal distinction of each one.

Ques. Would it be right to introduce the breastplate into Hebrews 9:24, there "to appear in the presence of God for us"?

J.T. That is the idea of it. The priest was never to go into the holiest without these garments, and we are to be assured that we are never cut off. "He ever liveth to make intercession for them", as if He never did anything else. We know He does, of course, but it is to assure us of the place we have there.

Ques. What is the significance of the breastplate being four-square?

J.T. It is a universal thought; it takes in all.

Ques. What is the thought of its being doubled?

J.T. To bring out the importance of it. It is not going to wear out; it is going to stand; it was like a pocket really. The Urim and the Thummim, whatever they were, these two things were in the breastplate. You have to understand the principle of the thing is in those two things. It is first mentioned in the general list, "And these are the garments which they shall make: a breastplate, ..." (Exodus 28:4). It is the thing par excellence in the array of garments.

Ques. Would the sheet coming down knit at the four corners bear on this?

J.T. Yes, it is something like Colossians 1:4, love "to all the saints". The breastplate shows the place we have before God; we need all the saints and we want to have them all in our hearts. These garments are very instructive and each part has its own

meaning. It is not so much to bring out the deity of Christ; that is understood; it is the Person covered up. The description in Song of Songs would hardly fit in with this because the actual form in detail is not seen here; it is a question of what Christ is in service. You have to go deeper to see His beauty portrayed, the lines and graces of His Person; they are not contemplated in this cloak. The holy Person seen in His beauty is an inner thing. What is before us now is what He is in service.

Ques. Why are instructions given first as to the two shoulder pieces and the onyx stones?

J.T. I think it is God beginning with us. You are going to be supported; I think that is what they show. We are taken account of according to our birth, and we are to be supported in this matter. We do not bring in human things; we are going to be supported and there is abundance of support in the sanctuary.

Ques. Would you get the same thought in Hebrews?

J.T. Chapters 2, 3 and 4 are in this, that is the size of the shoulder pieces. So that we come boldly to the throne of grace and get all the help we need. We do not need to rely on natural strength in the sanctuary or at any time.

Ques. Why are the names on the shoulder pieces according to their birth?

J.T. To bring out the family thought. In Hebrews 2:13 we get "Behold I and the children which God hath given me". We are viewed in that light as under His care. Love is in the breastplate; the breastplate is what we are according to divine counsel. Without mentioning their names but according to their names, that is, what you are as the fruit of the work of God; you have your own distinction. Every christian has his distinction as the fruit of the work

of God. What he is in the counsels of God is the way he will appear before God.

Ques. Why do we have the details given of the holy garments and the materials of which they are made?

J.T. They refer to the various glories in which we appear, or in which Christ appears. If we take them up in detail we have a wonderful unfolding of the glories of Christ in service, the colour and quality of the material, all bringing the thing out in detail. We know in part, and what a lesson book it is to study by the Spirit these holy garments!

Ques. What is the thought of a span?

J.T. Something that is within your range. Measure is a great thing. It must have been a great matter with God. Accuracy is required in it so that we should know facts; we are too general in dealing with matters.

Ques. According to their names, does that suggest the colours of the stones?

J.T. The glory of the names is in the stones; it suggests great variety in the saints. We are the inheritance of God; that is, we shine on the breastplate of Christ. However little we may be in reality we are great in the divine thoughts; we have the most central place in the heart of Christ.

Ques. Would that correspond to the blessing of Moses in Deuteronomy 33?

J.T. Yes, I think so. The names are not actually given here. It is supposed that you know them by name and what the distinction of each saint is. You do not go over their names literally. There is distinction: Mary Magdalene was different from Peter and every one of them had a distinction.

Rem. The tribes around the tabernacle were not according to their birth.

J.T. No, I think the tribes were placed round the

tabernacle according to the breastplate, in rows of threes.

Ques. Is the distinction the outcome of sovereignty or moral formation, or do they both go together?

J.T. They go together; that is, the moral formation is in agreement with divine counsel. When the Lord said to Peter, "Thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone", in John 1:42, that was in the mind of God for him.

Ques. Does the dignity referred to here come out in the heavenly city in Revelation 21?

J.T. They are on the foundations there.

Ques. Would the bearing of this now be as taking account of one another as according to God?

J.T. That is the thought, to see what is in the mind of God. You may say, He is not like that now, but God will bring him to that -- you do not want to hinder God's work. The salutations in Romans 16 indicate that this remains and abides. Paul mentioned the persons according to their qualities. Phoebe's name was Phoebe but really a name embodied in the quality of the person.

W.G. This is rather preparation for happy functioning in the assembly.

J.T. I think so, we learn in these things what the saints are. They are "all glorious within". Her clothing is "of wrought gold" (Psalm 45:13); that is in the king's apartments, our place in the sanctuary.

Rem. These garments are for glory and beauty.

J.T. These are not the saints' garments properly. The saints are only spoken of as on the breastplate. These garments are the garments of Christ; the garments of Aaron's sons are mentioned later. No saint has these garments mentioned here, they are garments that Christ alone can wear. So that the subject really is what Christ is as the Minister of the sanctuary. We have to apprehend Him in these garments, they are just qualities marking Him in that setting, as in

service. And we are assured of our place because of the onyx stones on the shoulder pieces, and the breastplate. God is the object of His service primarily, it is "to serve the living God" (chapter 9:14); that is what we get in the section in Hebrews.

Ques. Would you say a little on the Urim and the Thummim?

J.T. The first is said to be light and the second perfection. In Deuteronomy 33, the Thummim comes first because there it is the work of God in the saints, what God has wrought at the end of the wilderness; therefore the idea of perfection comes first. The light radiates perfection, light in its application to us. The action of light, what the light is, is the second thought.

Ques. How was that lost in Nehemiah's day? They had to wait till the priest came in with the Urim and the Thummim.

J.T. I think it would be the waning of the light in the appreciation of it amongst the people of God. How much the saints lost in the strivings of the wilderness!

Now Hebrews 8 is the full setting of the service of God; it is not our need so much there. The service of God is in mind, and the Minister of the sanctuary. That is touched on in chapter 2.

Ques. Would it be right to say that if peaceful conditions are to be maintained with us locally, and God is to be served, the various features seen in these garments are to be understood?

J.T. I think so; God has given to us in part, and we are to learn in part and put it together in our souls; we are to know what each part is. We are to see how the Lord moves and follow Him.

Having introduced the great subject in the earlier verses, the apostle reverts to the covenant, down to the end of chapter 10:18. It is in view throughout, because this great Person's service required that we

should be liberated, and the covenant will liberate us. Perfect love casts out fear so that we may join in this great service. So that it says, "Let us draw near" (verse 22).

Ques. Would it be out of place to ask what is conveyed in the expression, "that this man have somewhat also to offer"? Is it the praises of His people?

J.T. I think it is that what He offers is of Himself; the idea of offering is not classified but the quality, that He has somewhat to offer. Even if you bring in the saints how much have we to offer? He brings it all in.

Rem. That is you would include the whole.

J.T. That is the thought I think.

Ques. Do we not come together with the holiest in our hearts?

J.T. The entrance into the holiest is just to bring it down to us. The Jewish believers were very low down. The apostle is endeavouring to bring them to the initial thought in verse 19 of chapter 10, and follows it up with directions as to the way to serve. The entrance to that is in the holiest. "Having ... boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus". "We have" is one of the leading phrases in the epistle. Each has right to enter by the new and living way, the blood of Jesus. How beautiful that is, coming down to the very youngest, "by the blood of Jesus". What has the blood of Jesus done for you? Washed away your sins. And you enter into the holiest by it, too.

Rem. I am not quite clear as to what it means when it says He must have something to offer.

J.T. I would not like to define it.

Ques. You do not view it as Aaron who offered what was brought to him?

J.T. Christ "by his own blood, has entered in once for all". That is the principle of having something to offer, the principle, the whole position is

marked by that. He "offered himself without spot to God". If you look at Aaron as he entered, it was not by his own blood, but Christ as High Priest entered "by his own blood". All that enters into it, what the priest is as offering, as serving in the sanctuary and the richness of what He offered. It is the great general thought that we have in mind.

W.G. Do not we come together in the assembly with the holiest in our hearts?

J.T. I think so. The holiest is rather an individual thing. That is why I thought it extends to the weakest and the youngest for every christian has a right to enter by the blood of Jesus.

W.G. This qualifies you for the spiritual order of things.

J.T. I think it does. We are able to see what is inside before God delivers us from an order of things outside.

W.G. The assembly convened tests us as to what we have got.

J.T. Yes. Like Asaph under a new regime under David (1 Chronicles 25:2). Asaph may be taken as a sort of type of most of us, somewhat like Psalm 73. I think that Asaph is a kind of lead for us.

The Hebrew christians had got down so low: they had reverted to the old things, as christendom has done. The apostle is getting them to draw near, to see what is before God. Jesus, whose blood had washed away their sins, had gone into heaven. Inside the veil is what Jesus is before God. I am not going on with anything else than Jesus in heaven, not what He was here on earth, but in heaven carrying on the service of God. The third book of Psalms (Psalm 73 - 89) would be a great help in regard to these verses in Hebrews. Entering the sanctuary, I see what things are.

Ques. Would it be right to bring in the breakdown of Aaron? He was not able to wear the garments.

J.T. He is only a type; Christ does not break down.

Rem. It enhances the glories of Christ.

J.T. It does. We have His personal dignity set out in chapters 4, 5 and 7; they deal with the greatness of His Person. He is Priest on the principle of the oath, "a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedec" (chapter 5:6). The summary is in the beginning of chapter 8, "We have such a one high priest".

Rem. I am sure we need to have an enhanced idea of the value of the blood of Jesus.

J.T. It is within the range of every christian. Everybody may understand the blood of Jesus, it is by the Spirit we have access to Christ, by one Spirit. The divine idea is Christ risen and glorified, and the Spirit in the saints. We have got to translate the language of Hebrews into the language of Romans, Colossians and Corinthians. I believe many christians are puzzled by the language of Hebrews because it is language taken up from the Old Testament; the epistles are written in our own language. The blood of Jesus is a beautiful term; nothing is more beautiful and touching than "the blood of Jesus".

Ques. What is the idea of the house of God coming in here (verse 21)?

J.T. The idea is that what is moral stands in relation to the house of God; we do not want to let in sectarian thoughts here; there is only one house composed of all christians.

Ques. Do you view the saints here as in wilderness circumstances?

J.T. It is spiritual, because it contemplates the saints getting into a spiritual realm. Many of the saints' children are in the wilderness; they cannot go to Egypt and they do not want to go to Canaan.

Ques. What is the thought of "consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh"?

J.T. It is the death of Christ. He goes through

the veil; the veil is still up for the Jew. It is a question of spiritual understanding. Christ having died and risen and gone into heaven, there is a way in through the veil. Christendom has put itself outside the veil. It requires faith and the Spirit's power, "a new and living way" by the Spirit. As we get in Ephesians 2:18, "Through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father". That is on a high level but it shows somewhat of what is meant. We go in, but we go in in that way through Christ.

W.H. If we are to have part in the service we are to move on that line outside of the ordinance of man.

J.T. That is the idea, it is by the Spirit, a living way by the Spirit. So here, "having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water", sets the heart at liberty, so "Let us draw near".

Ques. In chapter 8 when the Lord is spoken of as Priest, the throne is mentioned, but in chapter 9 it is not mentioned; why is that?

J.T. It is in the heavens in chapter 8, "the throne of the greatness in the heavens". There are four references to the throne in Hebrews: in chapter 1:8; chapter 4:16; chapter 8:1; and chapter 12:2, whilst in chapter 10:12 it says, "He ... sat down on the right hand of God"; they are like four great pillars -- "the throne of the greatness in the heavens". He is great enough to sit there.

Rem. I suppose the greatness in Hebrews is in contrast to the smallness of judaism.

J.T. Yes, that is the idea. There is no outward smallness about christendom and judaism. When we come to chapter 11, entering for us is suggested by the whole cloud of witnesses, brought into the realm of life. They have passed out of death into life. Their actions indicated they were living men, living in the light of another world, the living way, a living state of things, that is the idea.

DIVINE THINGS SHOWN

2 Chronicles 3:1,2

"And Solomon began to build the house of Jehovah at Jerusalem on Mount Moriah" (the meaning of the word 'Moriah' is said to be 'shewn by Jehovah' ), "where he appeared to David his father" (the words 'where he appeared' may be rendered 'which was shewn' ), "in the place that David had prepared in the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite. And he began to build on the second of the second month, in the fourth year of his reign".

There are other scriptures that I may allude to briefly but this one sets out more definitely than any other what I had in mind to call attention to, that divine things are to be shown. God has graciously provided the instrumentality for this, and young believers are to note that things have to be shown. The Holy Spirit indeed is here to that end; He takes of the things of Christ and shows them, or announces them, to us. That is what He is doing, one of the greatest acts that He is doing, showing the things of Christ, showing things to come to the saints. No saint or christian can afford to be neglectful of this, for the end is that we should become acquainted with eternal things, things that enter into our eternal state, and we should be conversant with these things as having had them announced to us.

So that this is the end of a series of showings which I will call attention to briefly -- the foundation of the house. No one can be in the house save as seeing the foundation, no one can be in it intelligently save as understanding the foundation. The Lord says, "On this rock I will build my assembly" (Matthew 16:18). And Paul says, "Other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus

Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:11). The foundation of the house -- of the assembly -- has to be understood, no christian should be ignorant as to it. Sometimes we think ignorance is almost a virtue, but it never can be. People speak of themselves as simple believers, but there is a certain shame attaching to ignorance. We have to admit, of course, we know nothing as we should know, but one says I will follow on to know, "And we shall know -- we shall follow on to know Jehovah" (Hosea 6:3). That is the characteristic attitude of a christian, he is following on to know. There is so much to be known that we need to devote ourselves to it and follow it -- as the apostle says to Timothy, "Thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience" (2 Timothy 3:10). Timothy gave himself to these things, he is enjoined to do it, "Continue thou in the things which thou hast learned" (verse 14).

Now the first showing that I will call attention to is that to Abraham. I want to speak briefly of the great men of faith to whom things are shown as examples. The more spiritual you are the less you assume; you are always dependent, ready to be shown, ready to learn. As regards young christians the eunuch is an excellent example, doubtless a man of education according to this world, but he was reading the Scriptures as we know, and the Holy Spirit says to Philip, "Go near, and join thyself to this chariot". And he did, he joined himself to this man reading the Scriptures; he was enjoined to do it by the Spirit, and there was no doubt that it was the right thing to do. The first question is, "Understandest thou what thou readest?". And the man rightly and simply said, "How should I then be able unless someone guide me?" (Acts 8:31). He had been up to Jerusalem where the scribes and Pharisees were, but they did not guide him. This guidance is by the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit says to Philip, "Approach and join

this chariot" (verse 29). It is the act of the Holy Spirit. The man simply and rightly says, How can I understand except some man should guide me? And there was someone to guide him. He takes the things of Christ and announces them to us, He brings them home to our intelligence and understanding.

Now Abraham was the first to be shown things, Moses the second and David the third. With Abraham it was the mount on which Isaac was to be offered up; that was not left to his choice. It was spiritually the greatest event you can conceive of, typically it was the offering up of Christ. It was no accident that the Lord Jesus was crucified just outside the gates, outside the wall. It was in Jerusalem though, in principle; it is spiritually "Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified" (Revelation 11:8). That was no accident, that is where the evil was, that is where the hatred of God and of Christ is.

Now Jehovah says to Abraham, "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of" (Genesis 22:2); Moriah, as you will see in the note, takes its name from the idea of being shown. It was not left to Abraham to find. And nothing is rightly understood spiritually except it is shown to us. What you find with Abraham is implicit obedience. Although it was a test of the supremest kind, he set out with his son Isaac; he rose up and went unto the place of which God had told him. And he arrived there in three days, the three days having its own significance; in three days he came in sight of the place; there was no doubt about it, no hesitation whatever. That is a great matter in the things of God, to be assured, so that you do not hesitate; you are not doubtful. "If any one desire to practise his will, he shall know concerning the doctrine" (John 7:17). It is a most important fact,

unfailing obedience to God and to Christ and the Spirit. Abraham saw the place and he knew it. He saw the place afar off. That is one of the features of faith; they saw the promises afar off and embraced them. Things are brought near to us by the Spirit; they are not far off now, they are near to us. Abraham leaves the young men there and he and Isaac ascended to the place. He offered up his son Isaac, one of the greatest transactions in Scripture spiritually; there is no greater transaction than that.

But I speak now of the showing, the gracious comment of God on His servant, that he should not hesitate. The death of Christ was plainly declared; not only the place of it but the kind of persons that were put with Him to death were recorded; the very grave in which they intended to put Him is mentioned beforehand; everything is accurately pointed out in the Scriptures, and when the time comes the Holy Spirit calls attention to that. How important to be definite in our apprehension of the place and time, the significance of the death of Christ.

Now as regards Moses, as he came out of Egypt with Israel they are complaining about thirst. There was no water to drink except brackish water, the waters of Marah which were bitter in taste. We have to apprehend the death of Christ in that way as set forth in the waters of Marah. The people come up out of the Red Sea; now they are made to drink the waters of Marah; the bitterness is in the taste. If we are to go into Canaan we must be in consonance with Christ. He tasted death for everything, that we might know what that means, what He endured, that we might have part in the suffering. And Moses was in that. And it says he cried unto the Lord and the Lord showed him wood. God never leaves us nor forsakes us. The great Mediator has to stand still; there is nothing but brackish water and the people complaining. Jehovah showed him wood. It is

Christ in relation to the wilderness circumstances; although apparently bitter, they are made sweet; the bitterness is wholesome and necessary for us. The worst thing that can happen to us will turn to our blessing. Christ in Manhood in that setting is typified in the "wood", spoken of so much throughout these typical books in the construction of the tabernacle. How important to be shown things so that we know what wood is. Then the second showing to Moses was just as he was about to die, the Moses of the book of Deuteronomy in the last mention of his life here. He wrote that great psalm in chapter 32 just as he was dying, but as still vigorous in mind and body. And so he goes up to the top of Mount Pisgah and Jehovah showed him the whole land; that is, He showed him heaven. He had been shown Christ as in the wilderness, what He is to the saints in the wilderness, and now he is shown the land. It was not an empty land, the heaven of purpose is an inhabited heaven. Heaven shown to the saints is an inhabited heaven. Abraham was told to go through the land, but we inhabit it. The Canaanites were still there, the land was full of Canaanites but Moses saw it with the Israelites in it.

In Deuteronomy 34:1,2, "And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the Lord showed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan, and all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea". That is the land inhabited with the people of God, the saints. That is the land! Ephesians contemplates the land, but that is heaven with the brethren. Nor would anyone who loves the brethren be there without them. God's way is to have the brethren there. The inhabitants there will be the brethren, not the Canaanites and the Amorites and the Jebusites, the nations who were hostile to God; these are all to be ejected from the land; faith sees

heaven with the saints there. Those who love the brethren love this view. It is shown by Jehovah, He leaves nothing out; it is shown from His point of view. But the leading tribes, representative of the saints, are all there. How lovely to think of that, Christ the "firstborn among many brethren" (Romans 8:29). That is the way Romans brings out the purpose of God -- firstborn among many brethren. Heaven will be inhabited by heavenly people.

Then finally David is shown the type or pattern of the temple. That is what is alluded to in this passage in 2 Chronicles. Solomon is conversant with it; it is Solomon's foundation. The church is not a haphazard sort of thing as the church in christendom. It is built according to God, the foundation is shown, and Solomon is conversant with it. It is his foundation in a shown place. They saw the foundation in Matthew 16:16: "the Christ, the Son of the living God". That is what He is as known in resurrection, what He is in His Person as here, but known in resurrection, the Son of the living God. There is no other foundation that can stand than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ, it is a question of the kind of Man He is. And the structure will be like the foundation. In order to understand the place we must understand the foundation. Ephesians gives us not only the foundation but the top stone, Christ Himself being the chief corner-stone.

That is what I thought might help us to begin, if we have not begun, to embrace the idea of having divine things shown to us, and to understand that there are instruments in the power of the Spirit which God employs to show us these things.

WATER

Exodus 17:1 - 16; Numbers 20:2 - 13

J.T. Lately some of us have been looking at the water of purification in John's gospel, which alludes to the death of Christ as cleansing us from the state effected in us by sin, not as dealing with our sins, but from the state caused by sin. In John's gospel there is also the drinking of water, which is another thing, water viewed in another way, as a type of the Holy Spirit, which is always refreshing and vivifying. It is from this standpoint of the water in John 4 and 7 that these scriptures in Exodus 17 and Numbers 20 should be considered. The water for drinking is a subject that is specially calculated to help young christians, because we are apt to be so general in treating types, so that the water of purification is not distinguished in our minds from the water of refreshment and life. There are two features of water running through Scripture.

Ques. Where does this come in, "Every one that has this hope in him purifies himself" (1 John 3:3)?

J.T. That is the water of purification. So that John in his epistle speaks of the water flowing from the side of Christ before the blood, but in his gospel he speaks of the blood first. The water cleanses us from the practical effect of sin in us, it is the death of Christ viewed in that figure of water.

Here in Exodus 17 it is a question of people thirsting and complaining in their thirst. Young christians are apt to be dissatisfied with what they are brought into though having christian parents and being brought up outwardly in the truth; they are like the Israelites here who all passed through the Red Sea, and were all baptised unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea and all ate the same spiritual meat and drank the

same spiritual drink, but still they were contentious and dissatisfied. Young believers may not always say so but there is dissatisfaction and I think this chapter would help to show how the Lord Jesus suffered that they might have the Holy Spirit.

Ques. How does Marah come in? It is earlier than this?

J.T. It is akin, a sort of combination of the water of purification and the water of refreshment. It was brackish but capable of being made sweet by the wood thrown into it, typical of Christ Himself. The wood in these early books is a type of Christ viewed as a Man here. So that the two waters coalesce in that way; the water of death was bitter and brackish, almost as bad as if they had not any, but it is capable of being made sweet. It is the cleansing effect of the water of purification, as we have it in John 2, capable of being made sweet like wine, which maketh glad; it is stimulating. Generally speaking, the Red Sea is a figure of baptism; the drinking of it at Marah is a type of baptism. According to Romans 6 we see that Christ's having been into death has changed its character for us; then there is what is sweet, the Spirit becomes that in our souls, sustaining us in our souls.

Ques. If a young convert gets a bad conscience as to something he is going on with, what is the remedy?

J.T. The first thing is to tell God that he is guilty of it. If it were my case or your case that is what we would do, get down before God and tell Him about it; tell the brethren too, that would be a wholesome thing. Then there is the application of the death of Christ. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins" (1 John 1:9).

H.McM. What the psalmist says is, "Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his path?" (Psalm 119:9).

J.T. Then the Spirit of God is so considerate of us that He furnishes a scripture to meet that person.

The cleansing of the leper in Leviticus helps. God takes very great pains where sin appears. Chapters 13 and 14 of Leviticus show how the soul is relieved and made clean. You will find in the types that sometimes a thing happens and you are not made clean till the evening. In other occurrences you are not made clean for seven days, and even for longer sometimes. So that God does not let us off, He chastens us so that we will not go that way again: "He that has suffered in the flesh has done with sin" (1 Peter 4:1). We ought to see that God takes account of our weakness and inability to take things in, but He will give us to understand that if we do these things and there is the allowance of sin, we cannot escape. But as we go on and experience these things, sin becomes more and more terrible in our eyes; we begin to see how bad it is.

A.L. "He that has suffered in the flesh has done with sin". What is the character of the suffering?

J.T. I think there is suffering; you cannot escape. Where sin has to be dealt with on account of something you have done, there must be suffering. Christ had to suffer for it in the most excruciating way; to look at this is what tends to make us suffer and deepens our spirituality, that we have to do with God -- God who is not mocked. "Thy God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29). It is love, corrective, not punitive -- but suffering lies there.

Rem. There is the other side, that those who do not indulge the flesh suffer.

J.T. Yes, no doubt that is true also. But a sense of having sinned, as seen with David and others, involves suffering.

Ques. Would the man who is unclean till the evening feel it?

J.T. I am sure he would. All that day he would be in a miserable state, although he might have had the word from God that he is forgiven, there is the

effect that has to be removed. It says here they "journeyed from the wilderness of Sin, after their journeys, according to the commandment of the Lord, and pitched in Rephidim: and there was no water for the people to drink. Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink" (Exodus 17:1,2). Yet they had seen wonderful things. They were themselves witnesses of the mighty power of God present in the cloud. So that young people brought up amongst the saints see the thing, what God is to His people, yet they may complain.

Rem. I should have complained if I had been there.

J.T. No doubt you did in your youth and so did I, but that is why we can tell young people about it now and help them to avoid it.

H.B. It seems to have been taken up as a challenge as to whether Jehovah is among them or not.

J.T. It is a test. "Wherefore do ye tempt the Lord?", Moses says. They complained against Moses, but Moses represented God. So that when young people begin to complain about the elder brethren, saying there is nothing much amongst us and so on, well that is complaining against God, that is what the enemy is aiming at.

Ques. Did Gideon raise a similar question? "If the Lord be with us, why then is all this befallen us?" (Judges 6:13).

J.T. It is what you see ofttimes, as if God was not there. God does not like that. He is very patient however and there is no rebuke for the people here. God is very patient with the young, but the time will come when He will have to rebuke them, and there may be penalties. This complaining is met by authority in Exodus 17. Moses is to take the rod with which he smote the river, he and the elders of Israel; it is a question of authority, and what is to

be noted is that although the rock is smitten, it does not say that the people drank. They are hardly credited with being able to drink, but the water is there. What is needed at this point is the authority of God, and the assertion that someone has to suffer if this case is to be met. I do not suffer, but Christ has to suffer. Moses was told to go on before the people and take the elders of Israel and the staff "wherewith thou smotest the river, take in thine hand, and go". A great matter; the rock is to be smitten, that is Christ had to be smitten.

Ques. Why is it Horeb?

J.T. It is the same range as Sinai but rather denotes grace. Somebody has to suffer, that is what we forget, this condition has to be met, it does not please God; the Sufferer is Christ.

Ques. Would this touch our affections as to the sufferings of Christ?

J.T. That is what I thought. If we are sensitive at all this ought to touch us.

Ques. Is there a word as to the elders; they go on?

J.T. Yes, they do not fall down to the level of the complaining people. But what a leader we have! Moses ought to be regarded as a type of Christ; it is the combination of authority, and yet there is suffering in mind -- a smitten Christ.

Ques. They were all there by the command of Jehovah. If this is done in the sight of the elders should they be intelligent as to what is being done?

J.T. That is the idea; they are the elders in the assembly -- "the assembly in the wilderness" -- to suggest to us that it is God's thought that they should know and reason with the young, with all those who complain. They are witnesses now of things that have happened before them. These elders can give an account of what happened. In Numbers 20 all

the assembly is gathered, not only the elders; it is an advanced thought.

Ques. Is the truth of the Spirit's presence confined to a few at first?

J.T. That is right. It is a principle that God is witnessed to, "ye are witnesses" Paul says (1 Thessalonians 2:10). That is the idea here: the complainers have to be testified to. If there be not this element of headship in any meeting, there is great weakness; it needs intelligence and experience to witness to what happened. That is how the assembly was inaugurated, on the principle of witness.

Ques. Do you not think many young people go on with soul difficulties because there is no one to meet them?

J.T. There is a need of elders. We cannot face these matters and have them adjusted without experience with God. These elders who went forward with Moses saw what happened. A most solemn matter! Jehovah was there, Moses was there, and the elders were there; the rock was smitten and the water flowed. But for the moment the point is not that the people drank; they are really not in a fit state to drink; when there is complaining like this a process has to be gone through. The Holy Spirit is given to persons; God gives the Spirit, but the point here is that it is given through the sufferings of Christ, not through His exaltation, but through His sufferings. When He is exalted to heaven it is not a question of smiting, but of speaking as in Numbers 20. People are ready now to drink, and God says, "Speak ye unto the rock". Moses smote it, but that was in rebellion. In spite of his rebellious act the water flowed. That is to bring out the wonderful character of the dispensation, that in spite of the clerical system, in spite of rebellion, the water flows and flows abundantly, so that the people and their cattle drink; there is abundance of water.

Ques. How do you connect the conflict at the end of the chapter with what we have had?

J.T. That is to bring out the state of the people. In their complaining Satan had come in through Amalek, now they have got conflict, agonising conflict, because it is up and down, Amalek prevailed sometimes -- how serious that is! In these complainings we have not judged ourselves at all. The enemy is only too ready to attack, and he does attack. This prevailing has to be understood.

Ques. Would this be like the spirit of complaint seen early in Acts?

J.T. Yes, the enemy comes in there. He got in in chapter 5, in the sin of Ananias and Sapphira, which was dealt with summarily. Then in chapter 6 they complained because their widows were neglected, a convenient thing to say; it was a national thing, a question of the Hellenists complaining of the Hebrews, that a certain section of the saints were neglected.

H.B. Why is it "thy staff" in the first part of chapter 17 and the "staff of God" in the conflict?

J.T. Well, it represents experience, something to lean on. God says to Moses, "What is that in thy hand?" when He took him up first. What have you got in the way of experience? God says, 'I will use that'. It became the staff of God though it was Moses' really, as God said, "See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh" (Exodus 7:1). In principle every minister is representative of God. Experience is what makes an elder -- your experience with God.

A.W.R. God would encourage him as at the riverside (Exodus 7:20).

J.T. He knew the power that was in the staff. That makes the thing all the more serious as to complaining against the elder brethren, because they represent God in measure. There can be no testimony here without representation of God, hence "ordain

elders in every city" (Titus 1:5), or "assembly" (Acts 14:23); it is a question of authority based on experience or qualification. You can have no testimony without that.

H.B. We find later that the nobles of the people had staves.

J.T. Quite so. John had one too. At Patmos he had a stave to measure things with.

Ques. What is the idea in verse 14?

J.T. Joshua is, I think, a type of Christ here, only in a small way, not yet as the great military leader. When the enemy is attacking, complaining having come in, I begin to see I am powerless, and then the Lord comes in. He is waiting for that opportunity, you acknowledge your weakness. The Lord is ready to come in then; He says as it were, 'I am taking this matter up'; He gives you to understand that. Even if Joshua does take it up, it is dependent upon intercession above. God is on my side in this, in spite of my complaining spirit.

A.L. How would you bring in Aaron and Hur upholding the hands of Moses?

J.T. We have to take these things as negative, they come in to show the perfection in Christ, He does not need an Aaron and Hur. It is well that we should feel the position as weak: we have got to go through this now, and it looks as if after all I may be defeated. It is to make me see the seriousness of complaining against God, and the elders and Moses.

A.L. It fluctuates because of our weakness, and in seeking to do things in our own strength.

J.T. I think so. They complain, and the enemy gets in and they get into trouble. It looks as if you may be defeated. What comes out is that the whole divine system is in my favour, Aaron and Moses and Hur and Joshua; all that God has, the very best, are all in my favour. When I see that it makes a man

of me. I am connected with this great system that God has set up. The Holy Spirit is present now. Though it does not say they drank, the inference is that they did, the principle is there. So the first writing you get in Scripture is in favour of young christians.

Ques. Do you think this is an effort of the enemy to keep young people from drinking the water?

J.T. I begin to learn to be a military man now, all through my own folly.

Ques. Is this the beginning of the conflict that leads to spirituality?

J.T. "Choose us men", it says in verse 9, implying that you are to choose yourself. Young people are apt to have a critical spirit. Moses says to Joshua, "Choose us men". The principle is that the great divine system is all in my favour.

H.B. Does that imply that the whole position is at stake? Should the spirit of intercession mark us too?

J.T. I think it includes the saints' intercession too, although it is on high; all intercession is on high, that is our position morally.

Ques. Would it have in view that young christians should distinguish between the flesh and the Spirit?

J.T. That is how the truth is developed in young people. They begin to see power outside themselves. It is Christ known spiritually. I believe Romans 8 gives you Joshua. In Joshua, the Lord Himself takes our place and becomes Captain of the Lord's host. Romans works this out.

A.L. Here it is Massah and Meribah. In the second case only Meribah.

J.T. It is taken up spiritually in Deuteronomy 33:8, "And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive

at the waters of Meribah". I believe the priesthood comes out here.

A.W.R. Why does the altar come in here (verse 15)?

J.T. I think the thought is that it is worship. You see that progress has been made; an altar brought in is to remind us that some headway has been made. God is going to get something out of this.

H.B. Does the name Jehovah-nissi suggest a definite experience with God?

J.T. That is what is meant. You can put a name on it. That is the principle running through Scripture. When you have put a name on it you have learnt something. The war is to be carried on, Satan would put his hand on the throne. God will not have that. He wants to be on the throne of our hearts. Satan would get hold of you and slay you.

Ques. Was there an attempt of Satan in Luke 10:17? "Even the demons are subject to us".

J.T. Yes, quite so. The Lord saw the full end of Satan. The first great conflict was with the devil himself. 'The Lord is my banner' is the one who has dealt with the enemy Himself.

Rem. You think this fluctuating experience is chiefly in the young?

J.T. I think not. The most spiritual of us may come under the influence of the flesh and Satan might get an advantage. But you would be recovered quickly. I know how to use the armour of God, whereas the young christian may not.

Rem. Every victory would build up a young believer.

J.T. It is a great thing to see that the Lord is here, that is Joshua. I think it is the first glimpse the young believer gets that Christ is a military Leader on my part against the enemy. Satan entered into Judas, and even Peter was turned against God.

H.B. Romans concludes "The God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly" (chapter 16:20).

J.T. That is the sort of thing. He is under Christ's feet now, but he is going to be under our feet.

Rem. Satan would hinder Paul coming to Rome.

J.T. Yes. Paul was greatly afraid that the devil might get in amongst the young christians.

Ques. Would "and his people" in verse 13 be spoiling his goods?

J.T. Well, just so. That indicates what this conflict is. The eye is directed to Christ. Our Joshua broke the power of Satan, He took away the strong man's armour in which he trusted. Then at the cross He annulled him who has the might of death.

H.B. Is Numbers 20 more the thought of the assembly?

J.T. It is more advanced. Moses is there, of course, and Aaron too, but it says in verse 8, "Gather the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes". But in spite of the disobedience of Moses, as seen in verse 11, the water flowed to bring out the character of the dispensation. In spite of man's disobedience in the service of God the water flows. Otherwise we should not have so much ministry as we are getting now. In spite of the rebellion of the servants in the great hierarchical system, the water flows. God caused the water to flow. The principle here is speaking to the Rock. Why should I not speak to God? If I have need in my soul it is a time for speaking, a time for prayer. "How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13), showing the character of the dispensation, that it is a time of asking.

Rem. The assembly are able to drink here.

J.T. We are on a high level here, a state of intelligence contemplated in the assembly. You were saying, Mr. I., something about Elisha seeing Elijah go up; that would be in keeping with it.

F.I. You cannot come into the good of this in

your soul unless you are in the good of Christ in heaven.

Ques. Would you say that the action of the Spirit here is in accord with Christ in heaven?

J.T. The Holy Spirit really comes down. He is sent down, we are told. Sufferings are the prominent thing in Exodus 17, whereas the speaking is the prominent thing here; there is no need of smiting here. Christ is in heaven; it is now a time of speaking. The staff contemplates that you are fit to be used; this staff can be used. Moses represents the ministerial side and he is qualified to be used. The staff represents previous experience.

H.B. Was the breakdown that he used the staff in the wrong way?

J.T. He was not to use it at all. It was to be Aaron's staff, which denotes the priesthood of Christ. It contemplates the whole christian position. Moses is the ministerial side of it. The smiting the rock was disobedience -- the whole hierarchy is included in this. In spite of that the water flowed, and flowed in abundance, God having His way after all. It was the priest's staff that had budded; that is resurrection. If He were on earth He would not be a priest, but He is in heaven and hence there is plenty of water. What follows is the brotherly spirit in Israel now. We have to do with brethren all round us, like Edom. Are we going to be sons of peace with them? "Thus saith thy brother Israel" (verse 14). We are speaking as brethren now. There are people around us, our brethren, but they will not listen to us. What are you going to do -- fight with them? No, it says, "Israel turned away from him". You do not want to quarrel with the brethren around, you have to leave them. Here they are in keeping with the mind of God. There are thousands of brethren around us; what we want to do is to go through. Israel were not going to take anything from them.

Ques. What would you say we get in the next chapter as to the springing well, and then the thought of Sihon and Og coming in?

J.T. That is another feature of the flesh also. They were speaking not only against Moses but against God, a terrible state of things. And what meets it is Beer, the digging by the princes with their staves. Moses is not the only one to have a staff now; the elders have got staves; authority is used now to bring in refreshment.

SONSHIP

Luke 24:4; Acts 1:9 - 11; Luke 9:30,31

J.T. My thought was to look at the realm in which men are to be, that is, in the divine domain of sonship; and I thought it would be profitable to consider the kind of being, as we may, in which the thought is expressed, as to the resurrection, then of the ascension, then in the Lord Himself on the mount of transfiguration. Luke says at the outset that the angels were saying, a multitude of them, "Good pleasure in men" (chapter 2:15). That is what a multitude of them were saying according to Luke; he is the only one that tells us these things, showing that heaven is not one angel, but a multitude, and that they are conversant with this great thought of Christ, and very jealous as to it -- "Good pleasure in men". In the first passage they are seen as men, representing the thought; they are "in shining raiment", indicative of the lustre and glory of the order of manhood now brought in in resurrection. Then we have the shining in "white clothing" in Acts 1:11. Then on the mount of transfiguration it is "two men ... appearing in glory"; their names are given, that is, they have personal distinction, showing that each one will have personal distinction in heaven. But the first thought is men, each having a distinction; each name indicates that. And they are there in dignity too: they are speaking with the Lord. "Lo, two men talked with him, who were Moses and Elias".

W. Does "men" convey the thought of full growth?

J.T. It does not seem so in this passage, but is rather to bring out the order of being. When God made Adam, He made a complete man, to bring out

the order of being. God sets out His great thoughts in the creation; and so in Christ, there is no idea of development in what He brought in. Adam represents the order of being; he is that kind of being.

A.W.R. At the outset does He indicate the adequacy of the testimony to men?

J.T. That is right. Not 'good pleasure in man' but in "men". God has the plural idea in His mind. We have the thought of man too; John makes much of that. Pilate says according to John, "Behold the man!" (John 19:5). John the baptist calls attention to Him, "Behold the Lamb of God" (John 1:29,36). Attention is called to the Person of Christ, as pre-eminent in the divine thought. The counsels of God require men.

A.W.R. The tabernacle of God is with men; is that a cumulative thought?

J.T. Quite so. We are all "raised ... up together". The only single Man that goes into heaven is Christ. Paul goes in in testimony, the Lord goes in alone, but we all go in together. Israel went into the land together. There was no thought of anyone wanting there, of anyone absent. Though the two-and-a-half tribes elected to stay on the other side of Jordan, forty thousand of them went over, the whole of Israel was secured.

H.B. Does that principle apply, the going into the divine domain together?

J.T. I think so. You embrace all in affection. Some are not with us, but we have them in mind in the assembly; we think of them. We do not come together in assembly in remnant character, the whole assembly is in mind. The Lord said, "Why persecutest thou me?" (Acts 9:4). That is, the whole assembly is in mind.

Ques. So the twelve men found at Ephesus receive the Spirit together?

J.T. You mean the twelve that Paul found; yes,

that is significant, it was no accident that it was twelve men, they all got the Spirit together, an important matter, suggestive of a good foundation there.

H.F. Is your thought men in contrast to angels?

J.T. That is what I thought. The angels are seen, in Luke, as serving without any feeling of envy, multitudes of them, representing the full angelic thought. They are so taken up with what has happened. "God was manifest in the flesh, ... seen of angels" (1 Timothy 3:16). The first time they saw Him was in manhood.

N.F. What is in your mind as to the three passages read? Are they progressive?

J.T. The first, Luke 24:4, is how manhood appears in resurrection; the lustre and glory attaching to that order in resurrection. Then in the second scripture, Acts 1:9 - 11 the intelligence as to the ascension, the manner of it, "This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven". The manner of the Lord's ascension is perceived, "as ye have seen him go". "If thou see me when I am taken from thee", Elijah says (2 Kings 2:10). I think wrapped up in this is the manner that becomes us whilst He is away, what goes on in the assembly in the interval. So when they were selecting an apostle it was to be one that had assembled with them "all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us" (Acts 1:21), I think that is what they would convey -- the manner of the Lord's movements -- "white clothing". Then thirdly, Luke 9, those on high appear "in glory" -- that is a further thought. John says, "It doth not yet appear what we shall be"(1 John 3:2) -- although he saw much, there is something more; but anyway they "appeared in glory". So that we shall have bodies of glory, the same persons not in bodies of resurrection merely, but in bodies of glory, "fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21).

H.F. They were perfectly at home in that scene.

J.T. That is what I thought. In heaven we shall be perfectly free to address the Lord; we do not wait for Him to hold out the golden sceptre. Heaven will be a place of liberty.

H.F. Had you thought that if we enter in spirit into these three passages, we should know something of it now?

J.T. I think it is to teach us liberty, to teach us the dignity, the liberty that the speaking would suggest. It is the greatness of the Person that is in mind -- the Lord is before us -- then these two men who were Moses and Elias, were the greatest men you could think of up to that time. They were there and talking to the Lord; they were talking with Him, not He to them. I think the talking was according to what they ministered here, what Moses had been engaged with, what he saw on the Mount, the pattern of the tabernacle; all that would appear to be without effect if this was not so. And so with Elijah.

F.I. Do you mean that the place of distinction they had here was greater than their service? Each one would be known in his distinctive character in heaven?

J.T. Our place in heaven will be greater than what we have here as men.

Ques. Does that link on with His receiving up in the same chapter?

J.T. "The days of his receiving up", corresponding with Man "received up into glory", the glory being beyond what was here in flesh, or even in resurrection. That is what we are to be conformed to, "His body of glory", not merely as One risen, but His body of glory.

H.B. Would these two men suggest the heavenly saints in glorified bodies?

J.T. Yes, they come out here according to the power of God, representing that He can bring them

out for this purpose. Elijah had gone up into heaven even without dying but he did not go up in a glorified body; all that was awaited. "Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:23). These are what you might call provisional, to bring out the thought.

W. It is worthwhile laying this up in our souls, how we really stand.

A.W.R. What is the point here in men "in glory" -- these two men have their own distinction?

J.T. We receive our glorious bodies: "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" would imply that all still await the consummation of it, even these two men. Although we read in Matthew 27 that many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after His resurrection, we cannot say much about it; it is just a testimony of what God can do.

W.A. What is suggested in the suddenness with which these things take place?

J.T. It is suggestive of the possibilities that lie in the Spirit: "Two men suddenly stood by them". The Spirit in that way would present what is heavenly to us, so that we enter upon it immediately; there should be no need of delay.

W.A. Does it have any bearing on our present position?

J.T. I suppose the Lord is working and stirring us up in that way just now, in view of what may happen suddenly at any time. The Lord may continue in testimony. He may do so, but we do not know; the time is ripe in a way.

H.B. Would it be in contrast with the gradual transformation which is our moral experience?

J.T. The Lord may come as we are engaged with Himself. These women were looking for the Lord, you know. "As they were in perplexity about it",

though in perplexity, still they were looking for the Lord.

Ques. Is it in the same circumstances that the Spirit comes in in Acts 2? It comes suddenly.

J.T. I think so. It says, "Behold, two men stood by them" as they were gazing toward heaven in Acts 1. Then in Luke 2 it says, "Suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host", as the shepherds were caring for their flocks by night.

H.F. Did I understand you to say that Moses and Elias could enter into conversation with the Lord because they were intelligent as to what was happening?

J.T. I think that is what is meant to be conveyed. Their ministry would be futile aside from this that they were speaking of. The Lord was about to depart out of this world. Moses well understood what exodus meant, "His decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem". Aside from that, all their previous ministry would be ineffective; it would be futile. God brings these two men there. No doubt they were filled with intelligence at the moment so as to present a complete picture.

A.W.R. How would that apply to us?

J.T. Well, in all these three scriptures it is a question of personal dignity, for even John says, "It doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him", although he was here and had seen this, he does not even know as to the whole thing! It is a question of laying hold of what we shall be there, of course; that enters into our service here.

The first thing in these scriptures is the kind of man, the radiant character of it, even in resurrection. This is what appears in resurrection; no doubt the heavenly thought enters into the shining of the two -- but it was there in resurrection. If the women were

equal to it, it was as much as to say, 'this is what you are going to be'.

H.F. Is it significant that it follows on "They found not the body of the Lord Jesus"?

J.T. They were looking for Him dead, a poor thing in a way, and yet there were thousands of others that did not even look for that! You are thankful to see people going to the orthodox church, there is something in that, for there are millions that do not even do that. But then these women are looking for the Lord; they loved the Lord, but it was teaching they needed. Like thousands of christians, it is teaching they need, they really love the Lord, but they are looking for Him in the wrong place, they are looking for a dead Christ.

A.W.R. If room is made for affection, intelligence would follow.

J.T. Affection is the basis of education. These two men could not only tell them things, but they represent in themselves what the divine thought is; as any minister ought to represent morally what he is saying. They would come back to that afterwards. Paul's doctrine would unfold what the saints are going to be in heaven.

A.L. The angels rebuke them in saying, "Why seek ye the living among the dead?".

J.T. There are thousands of christians around us seeking the Lord but seeking Him in the wrong place. Our business very largely is to instruct them. I believe these angels mean that; the shining garments would indicate that the truth is to shine forth. You do not see much shining in what comes out of cathedrals, but what comes out of death enters into this. "We all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (2 Corinthians 3:18).

Ques. Would it enable us to stand by them, as these two men did?

J.T. Yes, that is the idea in shining raiment. It is oil that makes your face to shine -- it would shine a bit on them.

H.B. The shining suggests something inside shining out.

J.T. It is the Spirit that shines, not merely on people outside, but as effective inside.

W. Aquila and Priscilla would instruct in the way of God more perfectly.

J.T. Yes, that is the kind of thing. I am sure Apollos would say something afterwards he had not been accustomed to say. He had come from Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, but the shining was needed, and I believe these two would furnish that. I think there is a lot of instruction for us as to the kind and order of man. Paul says, "Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:11). It is that kind of man. I believe the testimony of God today is more what the saints are, than what they say; what we are, the manner and spirit.

W. "They took knowledge of them [Peter and John], that they had been with Jesus" (Acts 4:13).

A.W.R. The Lord said to the lepers, "Go, shew yourselves".

J.T. Yes, "Shew thyself to the priest, ... for a testimony to them", "Go, shew thyself". (Matthew 8:4).

F.I. When the women saw these two men, they could really take their thoughts to heaven. If we are here as shining spiritually amongst the saints, our very contact with them would direct their thoughts to heaven.

J.T. Quite so, the shining is the point all through; do you not think that is rather more what we are?

F.I. Our thoughts would be more on what is

heavenly instead of occupying ourselves with circumstances here, and things of interest in this scene.

J.T. It says of Stephen in his introduction into heavenly things, "All that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel" (Acts 6:15); he was a reflection of what was there.

W. The Shunammite woman perceived that a man of God passed by.

J.T. Yes, he passed by her door, and she saw that he was a holy man of God. When the Lord was here He shone; He is not here, but we are here. "Why persecutest thou me?" indicates that there was a reflection of Christ in the saints.

H.McM. Is that why it says "they remembered his words"?

J.T. Quite so. I believe that is how the church is formed characteristically. The apostles had opportunity to see how the Lord Jesus moved: "All the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up from us". The thought was that from the movements of Christ, there would be knowledge acquired of who He was. When the Holy Spirit comes down the thing is confirmed. That is, christianity is inaugurated; what they were was carried down as formative material in the church, carried down to the present time. Those in the upper room really refer to the kind of material there, even the Lord's mother, all is carried down.

A.L. When Peter goes to Cornelius he bears testimony that they had eaten and drunk in His presence, and in his epistle that they were eyewitnesses of His majesty.

J.T. That is a resurrection thought -- "eyewitnesses of his majesty".

H.B. What is the thought in "white clothing"?

J.T. I suppose that should mark us in view of the period of His absence, from the time He went up till His return. A simple suggestion, I think.

H.B. He has a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments and "they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy" (Revelation 3:4).

J.T. I think that is helpful; the characteristic feature of the garments is purity. Then they tell them that He will come back "in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven". Now He is ascending and coming down. The Lord says, "Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man" (John 1:51).

A.L. Would you explain that, the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man? Do we see that?

J.T. The allusion is to Jacob's ladder. The passage we are referring to is in John, the other is in Genesis 28:12. "Upon the Son of man" is a question of His Person; He is the beginning of the movement. The angels here are descending on Him. It is a question of the greatness of the Person that was there. I think it is a marvellous tribute to the Lord's Person.

A.L. To bear witness to what is now here on earth?

W. In Hebrews they are ministering spirits sent forth to minister to them who shall be heirs of salvation.

J.T. "On account of those who shall inherit salvation". They are not presented as coming down, though they must have come down; they are presented as going up first.

F.I. If He had not been here to ascend from, there would be nothing to go up. It is the same kind of principle before He comes down in the way of blessing, there must be the ascension, the going up,

the appreciation of Christ here; our appreciation of Him as having been here serving in blessing.

J.T. Just so; He was "seen of angels". It is a principle that runs through Scripture, ascending and descending, in relation to what is connected with the Lord. Ascending on Him implies that we should begin there; it would refer to His incarnation, He is here in that position.

W.A. Would the same thought appear in the sacrifices?

J.T. The going up there would be more typical of Christ.

F.I. Is there an alteration here? They are not looking into the grave now, they are looking up into heaven.

J.T. They needed this adjustment because the glory had received Him. They were looking up, that period had ceased. The glory had received Him, the natural sight was shut out.

Ques. What is the thought in the men of Galilee?

J.T. That is reproach. They were not men of Jerusalem; they were men of Galilee; Galilee was under reproach, Nazareth particularly; it was intensified reproach. That is really what the people of God experience. I think we ought to get the thought conveyed in their remarks, not only in their garments but in their remarks. You might say it was a right thing to look up; Colossians tells us to do that. It is not that faith had not existed before, for it had been present from Abel onwards. In the absence of Christ things are on the principle of faith. When He comes back again it will be a period of sight. The period of the cloud is ceasing now. Stephen looked into heaven, there was no cloud. Hebrews is a book of opened heavens, but not for sight, but for faith; "while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen" (2 Corinthians 4:18). That is one thing. Here it says, "This same Jesus, which is taken

up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven". That is to be maintained in the interval, the manner of His going up: it is a heavenly thought. We are to go up too. It is one great thought to keep before us, the thought of going up. We have to understand how He went up.

Ques. Do you get the full effect of this ministry in Revelation 4, in the twenty-four elders in white raiment?

J.T. Quite so, they are there. John was received up when he saw that. I think there is much in this; there is wrapped up in it the ministry of Paul, the idea of going up; there is the idea of coming down too. "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven" (Revelation 21:2).

Ques. Would that be like 2 Kings, mount Carmel and then Samaria?

J.T. Elisha saw Elijah go up. The children say, "Go up, thou bald bead", they ridiculed it, and bears came out and slew them. God would not have that, that the thought of going up should be ridiculed; it belongs to christianity.

W. When the coming of the Lord was revived sixty years ago, it was ridiculed. People said these christians will go up in a hand basket.

J.T. That gives you the idea of the ridicule; we do not go up in a hand basket.

A.L. He says to the two going to Emmaus, "Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?" (Luke 24:26).

A.W.R. So the Spirit of God would call attention to Paul, to his manner.

J.T. I am sure there is a great deal wrapped up in that. Paul's ministry is wrapped up in that, in the manner of things. I believe that word 'manner' is bound up with what follows in verse 21, as to the way He "came in and went out" amongst them.

What are you going to do now? Every movement would be suggestive of something. The Lord is calling attention to the manner in which things are to be done. The Lord broke the bread -- how did He do it? What did He say? The Lord did it, and it is the bread which we break, not only which we eat, but which we break.

H.McM. What follows is "in like manner".

J.T. Just so, the order of the cup, "in like manner also".

F.I. When we see the meaning of the thing, the breaking of bread takes on a different character; there is a divine movement.

J.T. The way the clergy present the sacrament, and the whole service in any church is not the way the Lord gives us things. That is what is in mind here, how He does things. So that the assembly convened is a reflection of heaven; it is the same thing; He is "the minister of the sanctuary", you are there in a spiritual way. The Lord said to Nicodemus, according to John's gospel, "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (chapter 3:13). That was implying not that He went, but that He is there characteristically as belonging to it. The fact that He came down here for a little while, does not alter that fact, that He is characteristically in heaven.

Rem. This takes place on the mount of Olives, near to Jerusalem.

J.T. Jerusalem was the place of testimony, and they went into it from the mount; Luke says it was Bethany which was a bit further back from Jerusalem, but the Spirit here says it was from the mount of Olives. Acts looks on to the assembly more; Luke finishes up with the Jewish remnant. So you have the Lord assembling with them almost immediately here, not simply in the same room as they were, but

"being assembled with them". So that the idea is He would continue to assemble.

Rem. Association with them would be an advance on standing by them.

J.T. Yes, indeed. This is suggestive of an innovation after He arose, not before He rose. So that the book of Acts is more a book of precedents, how the Lord did things, and how the apostles did things, as much as what they said. The Holy Spirit is here to bring things down to us. In other systems of religion it is more what is said, but in regard of christianity the Holy Spirit is here to bring things down, to revive them when they need to be revived.

H.F. Is there anything answering today to the Lord going in and out amongst them?

J.T. I think so, the Lord has promised to come to us.

Rem. David went in and out amongst the people of Israel.

J.T. That is right. He went in and out amongst them, and he led them in, and led them out. You may lead people out and not lead them in; many have done this; but David led them back; he led them into conflict, but he brought them back.

Now the last scripture, Luke 9, is the heavenly. The Lord says in verse 27, "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God". It is a very solemn thing to deny oneself, to take up one's cross, and be His disciple. It is not leisurely sitting down, but involves "standing". We do not taste death until we see the kingdom of God. Then about eight days after this, He takes Peter and James and John and was transfigured before them; evidently it was a spiritual transaction; a Person who is in heaven, and a picture of what is in heaven, that is what these two men Moses and Elias represent. We shall appear in the heavenly

city; we shall appear in glory. It is how we will come out, appearing in glory.

W.A. Qualifications are formed today.

J.T. Just so, the Lord's supper in the assembly is all educative in that way.

H.B. "The fashion of his countenance became different".

J.T. Just so. "As he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering".

Rem. "We shall all be changed, in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Corinthians 15:52).

J.T. The Lord is carrying on a great work quickly, all to bring us back to who He was and is, in view of His suddenly appearing at any time.

MINISTRY -- JOHN

John 1:6 - 8, 19 - 37; John 3:23 - 34

J.T. The subject of ministers and ministry has a great place in the Scriptures; it occurred to me it would be profitable to dwell upon it as involving authority in the presentation of the truth. In the types it comes properly in Exodus -- which may be touched upon tomorrow -- but it comes in there as affording divine sanction to what was in the divine mind to present to men. Therefore Exodus gives us the history of Moses, the great minister, from his infancy, Leviticus the priesthood, and Numbers the levitical service; the latter bringing out how ministers of the truth as presented to God become acceptable to Him, so that He increases their number. He reduced their age from thirty years to twenty-five with this in view. Humanly speaking the number of ministers is great, but God would increase their number as based on acceptability as presented in Numbers 8.

All that has its place in the New Testament, which we may see later on; but I thought it might be suitable to look at John's presentation of the subject at this reading. He makes very little of christian apostles, of which he was one, as to their service, but makes a great deal of John the baptist. I suppose he had in mind that the assembly had failed -- indeed he records the failure in the last chapter -- so that he presents John the baptist to us as representative of the thought of ministry. He records no failure of John at all; he presents him as representative of the thought of ministry; that is, he is to be taken as an example.

F.W.B. John is spoken of as "a man sent from God"; does that go with the thought?

J.T. That is what I had in mind, the finished product of a minister is as sent from God. It has been given out that the servants of the Lord who are so accredited are only so called by courtesy; whereas John the baptist coming under that head, would be on other ground; it is really an apostolic suggestion.

F.W.B. Is that what you meant by authority?

J.T. Yes; "sent from God" is apostolic.

W.L. Do you make a distinction between power and authority?

J.T. I think you would agree to that. There are two words used, one is authority, and the other is more dynamic, that is actual power.

W.L. Would authority connect with commission and power with ministry?

J.T. He was filled with the Spirit from the outset. The history of John is given by Luke; Luke gives us things from the outset, and while John gives them from the outset too, he has the finished product in mind. John does not allude to what Luke does; he begins with this man as sent from God.

F.W.B. Did you say he was sent as having been with God?

J.T. That is the force of the original. Luke says he was in the deserts until the time of showing to Israel; there is something to show, something to be seen; John does not allude to that, but says he was "sent from God".

Rem. There is the thought that the testimony should be received, and that God is brought in in the testimony.

J.T. That is the end of our subject in that sense; "He that has received his testimony has set to his seal that God is true" (chapter 3:33). I thought we might see that John leads us on to that, and the voice of the Bridegroom; he is one who "stands and hears" as a friend of the Bridegroom. That will link our subject on with Paul.

J.C. Is it not solemn that the apostle John alludes to the Baptist on account of the failure?

J.T. That is how we should take it, as coming in in the last days; the minister of another dispensation is representative of the thought. It is not that the thought is not in our dispensation, but it is a day of great failure, and a man of another dispensation is representative of the idea. Those who minister are really ministers; whatever others may have, the ministerial quality is present, and the first thing is to be sent from God. Let others have what they may, this is what John stresses.

F.W.B. Would he be representative of God?

J.T. That is what we should see. The principle of ministry might be illustrated by a royal commission from the king, or an officer in the army, he represents royal authority, his title represents the extent of his commission. John has title with limitations, as not being that great light, whatever he may be he has to recognise what he is not.

P.L. Has he derived that from the God of measure?

F.W.B. How does that apply to us in this day?

J.T. Everyone who ministers has to bear in mind as to being with God. As John pursues his subject, he brings out service that does not carry a commission outwardly; that is seen in the woman in chapter 4, she goes herself, not as sent from the Lord. John is sent before he qualifies. I believe the woman represents the way to what John presents, in that we qualify and thus are recognised as sent from God. We qualify in what we do.

R.D.H. There is a man sent from God; does manhood enter into it?

J.T. Quite so.

F.W.B. Is John 4 a person just converted?

J.T. She is recognised as a result of the work of God; there is no commission, yet she is successful.

E.T.S. She is so full of the Person she could not help it.

J.T. That is a great matter among the sisters. She does not say anything about the well, or living water, but she spoke of what affected her immediately: "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done" (chapter 4:29).

J.T.S. Would there be a correspondence in the ministry of John and the woman? He came for a witness to the light and she says, "Come, see a man"; both call attention to the Person.

J.T. That is suggestive. Anyone who does not call attention to Christ, is no minister at all -- "We do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus Lord, and ourselves your bondmen for Jesus' sake" (2 Corinthians 4:5). There is a beautiful way to present what is in the heart of the minister.

F.W.B. Does that come from John the baptist, in "Behold the Lamb of God"?

J.T. Yes. The Spirit of God stresses why he was sent, "That all might believe through him". "John bears witness of him, and he has cried, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me" (chapter 1:15). That is a very striking statement of one entirely free from himself. One that cries; he is enthusiastic about it; he does not whisper. This Person was before him; I think that is a fine testimony of John as free from himself and occupied with Christ.

F.W.B. The end of that is that they leave John for Christ.

J.T. That is the line of things presented in this chapter: the minister is free from himself, and the result is disciples become attached to Christ.

P.L. Is the Master Himself free from that -- "He shall not ... cry" -- do the servants do that?

J.T. John cries about it. The next thing is that

he is tested as to all this, for we may do very well in preaching or ministering Christ, but when people come from Jerusalem and give us the opportunity of being someone, what then? Jerusalem is brought in in verse 19 as representative of religious patronage; it would be a great matter to be recognised there. They would give him a title of some kind; the world is ready to give us titles if we distinguish ourselves; that is the supreme test of the servant.

F.W.B. Do you mean there might be a danger now?

J.T. I think there might be a tendency with brethren to be recognised. It is a gesture from Jerusalem, and the point is, Are people ready to recognise us?

P.L. It is better to be registered among the two living at Jerusalem; would they answer to the one hundred and twenty, the number of the names, in contrast to this religious patronage?

J.T. Heaven would recognise them. The "crowd of names" (Acts 1:15) would mean that each had distinction; it would tend against it to be in a crowd, but it is there that it comes out.

I.R. How would Paul fit in; he took a long time to be recognised?

J.T. He says he did not go up to Jerusalem to be recognised (Galatians 1:17). There are those who would distinguish you and make you something.

W.L. Would consciousness of having a commission from the Lord make the servant not seek recognition from others?

J.T. The commission from the Lord makes you proof against patronage; you need no such patronage at all. Those who are sent are of the Pharisees; they fully represent this sort of thing.

P.L. A man's gift makes room for him.

J.T. That is the idea. John acknowledged and denied not; he came out fully as he was. He says

nothing to that at all and it only served to bring out what Christ was to him.

E.T.S. What about his answer? he says, "I am the voice".

J.T. "Voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the path of the Lord". He is putting the wilderness against Jerusalem; he makes no allusion to training or experience or education such as the world can give him; he was a wilderness-man. It is in the deserts; they are not the place for human culture, and then he was but a voice in it; he falls into line with the prophet Isaiah, "Make straight the path of the Lord". He added nothing to the world and expected nothing from it.

J.C.M.W. Would that indicate that he expected nothing except from God?

J.T. That is the thought. You owe nothing to the world. The world will say, You have no qualification that entitles you to be a servant of the Lord, and you accept that. Your qualifications are in the desert from God.

E.T.S. It did not satisfy them; they question why he goes on.

J.T. "Why baptisest thou?". "I baptise with water. In the midst of you stands, whom ye do not know, he who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to unloose". That was not saying much; he was just baptising with water, but he did not need to tell them everything; he told them what they saw him do every day, but the point is "In the midst of you stands, whom ye do not know"; the leading men of the christian world do not know Him, though He is among them.

F.W.B. Would 'standing' imply that he was ready to serve?

J.T. I think that is it, ready to be active but not active yet.

P.L. "Behold, I stand at the door and am knocking" (Revelation 3:20).

J.T. That is true.

F.W.B. It might be true in our meetings; He might be there ready to serve; are we prepared?

J.T. Quite so. It is withering -- One whom ye do not know! Certainly that ought to put us into movement as to Who this Person is; do I know Him? Am I taken up with the servant? He was among them; why did they not know Him?

J.C.M.W. John was not the light or the Christ, but brought both into evidence in his ministry.

J.T. Quite so.

J.T.S. Had they listened to John they would not have said, "How knows this man letters?".

J.W.S.W. John says, "I knew him not".

J.T. Quite so, but the Pharisees did not know Him; those with good titles religiously did not know Him; it brushes aside religious colleges and seminaries.

J.C. Would Simeon and Anna be further on, they knew the Lord, whereas John did not?

J.T. They were older. They knew Him, of course. John is addressed as a babe spiritually, "Thou, child", before he becomes a man at all. It is unique. God would see that he knew Him ultimately, but all that is outside of Jerusalem and its education and men preparing themselves to be ministers.

J.C. Is knowing the Lord qualification for ministry?

J.T. I think so. "He who sent me to baptise with water, he said to me ..." in that way we get a definite knowledge of the Lord.

J.C. That is a minister's qualification.

J.T. Yes. The minister sees a little more than the needs of his own soul; he is shown things.

Ques. He witnesses to the light of the Son of God; is that something further?

J.T. God saw that John got the vision, the Spirit coming down and resting upon the Son; he saw the Spirit, a wonderful thing! No other speaks of Him in that way, but he sees Him in relation to the Son. The Son baptises with Him.

F.W.B. Seeing the Spirit coming down is testimony to John, how do you apply that to us?

J.T. That is a great matter. John is not presented as a believer developing through the needs of his soul; he is addressed as a babe in view of the ministry. Even the babe unborn moves in regard of Christ, and his father addresses him, "Thou, child". He goes before the face of the Lord, and seeing the Spirit bears record; it is in that way a suggestion to the servants how they apprehend the Spirit. I can only understand this wonderful Person as the Spirit makes Him known to me; I learn in the way It came upon Him, that is, Christ, the Son of God. All that enters into the qualification of the minister.

F.W.B. He baptises with the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Yes.

W.A.S. The words "Come and see" are characteristic of John.

J.T. Yes.

W.L. Would the girdle of skins be the way to all service? I thought it might suggest the restrained power of death as applied to myself.

J.T. That is a good suggestion.

W.L. He was restrained by that which speaks of death.

J.T. Very good, the leathern girdle means death.

W.L. Elijah was girded likewise.

J.T. Yes, and Peter as in the house of the tanner has the same thing before him, all a voice to ministers; it is death coming close to us.

Rem. Every movement of the Spirit would distinguish the Son of God.

J.T. That is what we gather; we can only arrive

at the knowledge of the Son of God by the Spirit. John's impression would never leave his soul, the distinction put upon the Son by the Spirit; he is speaking now by the Spirit, this is the way he comes into the knowledge of the Son of God.

J.C.M.W. He was shut up to the Spirit.

J.T. He would look for that, and I have to look for it; it is only by the Spirit I apprehend the Son of God. We have the Scriptures, of course, but the understanding of this is by the Spirit.

J.G.M.W. There can be no effective ministry without it.

J.T. That is important. We must come to the knowledge of the Son of God in the appointed way.

Ques. Is that what Paul means when he speaks of God revealing His Son in him?

J.T. Yes, it is by the Spirit.

J.R. Is the appearing of tongues of fire in Acts 2 in relation to what you are speaking of?

J.T. I think that is an important suggestion; attention is called to the saints in the sense that the Spirit comes in the way of power, "a rushing mighty wind", and it sat upon each of them. You can see the difference between those persons and this Person. If the Holy Spirit calls attention to me, it is that I need power, fire is there, to call attention to the fact of sin being in me; with the Lord it is different, the dove comes where there is nothing to judge, no fire is needed.

W.A.S. Do we see the action of the fire in Ananias and Sapphira?

J.T. If the Holy Spirit comes upon me it calls attention to the need of fire.

J.T.S. Are the words in John 15, "He shall bear witness concerning me", and "He shall glorify me" (chapter 16) connected?

J.T. The Spirit would glorify Christ. Do you not think it is important to see the difference between the

saints and Christ? On our side it is infinitely great but He comes in the way of fire; but if He came on us as being raised from the dead and going into heaven, there would be no fire.

J.T.S. Would the result be seen in the word from John, "He must increase, but I must decrease"?

J.T. John felt the difference between himself and Christ. There is a great difference, He is anointed above His companions.

W.L. The giving of the Spirit without measure was there.

J.T. He gave Him without measure at Pentecost.

F.W.B. Does the idea of a dove suggest that God has what He desires in Christ?

J.T. God is working up to Christ. In Genesis 1 the suggestion is perfection so far as what is in hand is concerned; but now God has reached His end in Christ.

Rem. The end of ministry is that God shall receive that.

J.T. Yes.

F.W.B. God has reached His end in Christ, and in the gospel it is that every one else should come to the same thing.

J.T. Quite so. He sees Jesus coming to him. That is another thing. That is important for any person to see the Lord Jesus coming to him; He comes to the saints, but the point here is he comes to the minister. The Lord singles him out for Him to come to him; it is unique, but there is the suggestion of His coming to the servant.

Rem. He comes to the man at the pool in chapter 5; to the woman in chapter 4 and the blind man in chapter 9.

J.T. He served them, but there is no instance like this in this gospel; John sees Him coming to him, that is something for us to apprehend, to see Jesus

coming to you; the bearing of that movement is in regard to what I am doing.

E.T.S. It must have impressed him as having seen the Spirit descending.

J.T. It would indicate what John's ministry was to be; there is more in it than that, but I am speaking of the effect on the servant.

W.L. Would the revelation to Paul be on that line?

J.T. "What I shall appear to thee in" (Acts 26:16).

J.R. Is what John says in verse 29 an exclamation or testimony?

J.T. There is much in the fact that he sees Him coming; there is much to impress John as to his service. If I am to serve I must apprehend His service, the bearing away of the sin of the world, that enters into the service of all. It is a great matter.

Ques. When does John bear witness to the Son of God; he calls attention to Him as the Lamb of God; is it verse 34?

J.T. I think it is a general fact. John says he bore witness; he was not behind what he saw; it is the idea that you are not behind the light you get.

Ques. Was it the spiritual impression he got at the baptism?

J.T. We do not get the voice from heaven here, but it is that he is not behind what he saw. You go and preach the gospel and you think that is all you have to do, but you have to do a great deal more. You are governed by what you see in your ministry, John makes it clear that as he apprehended, so he spoke.

W.L. Is it John who says, "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand" (John 3:35)?

J.T. That is the evangelist; I think these two verses are the Spirit through the evangelist. John's

record enters into christianity almost; you can hardly tell where he ceases speaking and the Holy Spirit resumes the thread through the evangelist. He is full of the Person, seeing Him walking.

E.T.S. What do you suggest as to the night?

J.T. It gives time to think over; he has not altered his mind, he rather increased his thought of the greatness of Christ.

P.L. "Even in the nights my reins instruct me" (Psalm 16:7).

J.T. Yes, and John sees Him sacrificially. It is not administrative, but he apprehends the Person coming in sacrificially; it is a sacrifice to serve; that should enter into ministry.

E.L.M. Would the reflection fortify me against the influence of those who said, "All come to him"?

J.T. Quite so. The saints do not always help the minister; the atmosphere was not too good. Reasoning does not help things; it was a low state among the saints; he was in danger of being affected by it.

P.L. Would the only way to be clear of the contention be to retire into the love of the bride for the bridegroom?

J.T. You can see how necessary it is. The thought of the bridegroom is an elevating thought. It is a matter of purification, and John is equal to the position. It is something for the servant to be full of the relation of Christ to the assembly.

P.L. Is the apostle above the party spirit in saying he had espoused them to Christ?

J.T. You can see that.

E.L.M. Would the receiving of ministry from heaven give character to the ministry today? He traces his ministry to heaven, and would that not be an element of ministry?

J.T. So much is made of the Baptist. John leaves that and leads to the great thought of He who comes from above, and the joy of the Bridegroom.

F.W.B. He seems to take delight in being a friend.

J.T. I thought it would allude to our subject tomorrow. Paul is minister of the assembly, not merely a friend.

Rem. John is a 'voice' to the Pharisees but a 'friend' of the Bridegroom.

J.T. It is very beautiful; there is nothing about the Bridegroom in chapter 1 -- John is getting on.

Rem. I wondered if it was suited to the company in question.

J.T. Yes, quite so.

MINISTRY -- PAUL

Acts 26:12 - 18; 1 Corinthians 4:1 - 6; 2 Corinthians 3:4 - 6; 2 Corinthians 11:1,2

J.T. It was remarked yesterday that John's presentation of the subject of ministry, ignores or slights the apostles. Having the last days in view the Spirit anticipates the breakdown of ministers, those officially known as such; indeed, in the last chapter he records the sorrowful departure of seven of them, including the leading apostle, Peter, but records the recovery at the same time which points to the last days of the dispensation. So John brings in John the baptist, and enlarges upon him as minister, omitting any failure on his part; and pursues his remarks about Christ, until he reaches Him as the Bridegroom, John saying he is the friend of the Bridegroom, who stood and heard Him. That is a minister, who can stand when Christ is brought in, making room for Him. Ministry may shut Christ out; it may be so active and so official as to shut out Christ. So he records John standing twice; he stood as Jesus walked (chapter 1:36), and then, as the friend of the Bridegroom, he "stands and hears him" (chapter 3:29). He finishes by a most striking tribute to the Person of Christ as coming from above, linking all with heaven in that way. All that comes out for men is linked with heaven; it was thought that the link is established between his ministry and Paul's in the thought of the 'Bridegroom'.

In the three accounts of Paul's conversion we have his commission alluded to, he is appointed a servant, a word which, as the note in the New Translation shows, is the dignity of the official servant (1 Corinthians 4:1). The verses in 1 Corinthians

show that in exercising his ministry he finds himself in troubled waters, and in both epistles he greatly stresses the thought of ministers and ministry; the troublous conditions amongst the saints indeed give occasion to stress the idea of ministry through the need for it, showing that what is needed is authority from God and the moral weight which should go with it.

F.I. There seems a difference in regard to John the baptist, in that John is prepared from his birth but not so with Paul.

J.T. So that John the baptist corresponds more with Moses; although Paul says he was separated from his infancy. God had him in mind, but he is not taken up spiritually from his infancy as John was; he is allowed to pursue a lawless course, though in it he had a good conscience and earned respect from God.

Rem. They were both sent ones, both John and Paul.

J.T. That must enter into all ministry. It is in principle the apostolic thought: "How shall they preach unless they have been sent?" (Romans 10:15), and yet as we noticed yesterday in John's gospel, we find a woman testifying without being sent, that is the woman of Samaria. In the Acts we find Philip serving without being sent, and afterwards he is sent, indicating that brothers and sisters may serve according to what their hand finds to do, and as they serve effectively, they are taken on formally, and commissioned.

A.D.D. In what way are they commissioned today?

J.T. I am using the word, as I may say, in the abstract to make the position clear. It is not that brothers should assume to be commissioned in these broken days, but the principle of it must be there. It is a definite understanding with the Lord as to

their work, which would be acknowledged by those who are spiritual.

J.T.S. Would "The Levites are at their work" in a day of recovery be on that line?

J.T. I think so. A man's service as supported of God will be owned, so that it amounts to a formal commission; anointing is there.

S.B. Would the Lord confirm them in such a way that the brethren would recognise it?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. The apostle is challenged in Corinth by some there; he says, "Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me" (2 Corinthians 13:3). Notice the expression, "Christ speaking in me"; they were his converts, and as such, a testimony to his commission and the effectiveness of his service.

F.S.M. Would it work in this way, that the love of Christ would create the impulse, and being found faithful in a simple way, the Lord would confirm that through the brethren?

J.T. That is how it works. The spiritual ones will discern what a man has, and give scope accordingly; but it is as facing troubled conditions that it tells. At Corinth the spirit of division had come in, and there were those who put themselves forward in the service as rivals of Paul. That is sure to happen in regard to everyone who is commissioned; he will be challenged and rivalled, so that he has to fall back upon divine power for his credentials; hence the apostle brings forward the manner of his ministry which was not in words of human wisdom, this was the case of those that rivalled him, "but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (1 Corinthians 2:4). It is undeniable by all who are right-minded; the minister has to remember that. Paul has his commission from the Lord, according to the three records of his meeting with the Lord, and he says he was appointed "minister" and "witness".

E.L.M. Would the idea of witness be that what he ministered was livingly exemplified in him?

J.T. That is what we should see, so that in his absence from Corinth he sends Timotheus, so that they might see in Timotheus his ways in Christ.

E.L.M. The moral side would support the official side in this case.

J.T. That is the thought. There was no comparison at all between him and his rivals, they were not converted men; doubtless men of parts as we say, but men that would be accepted with non-spiritual people. He is compelled to bring himself forward, his sufferings and what he endured, to meet that condition. It was necessary, and it was well he had the things to bring forward, for the minister has to remember he is to be challenged, and he has to produce his credentials.

F.I. Is there any sense in which the official side is seen today?

J.T. In moral power, I think; the excellency of power is of God, it is equal to the anointing.

E.L.M. Would the sense of being sent be the secret support for the servant, but the credentials be on the moral side for others?

J.T. Yes. You know what transaction you have had with the Lord, but that will not be for others.

Rem. The apostle was proceeding to Damascus for destruction, but learnt authority and power from heaven afterwards.

J.T. I am sure he would. His position is very similar to that of Moses. I think the books of Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers, bring out Moses' position officially and Stephen says, "This is the Moses ... who was in the assembly in the wilderness" (Acts 7:37,38); that is where he gained his testing, where everything is adverse. How did he behave there? One of the severest tests was the envy of Miriam and Aaron; they are linked with him as leaders of Israel

and they envied him, saying, "Has Jehovah indeed spoken only to Moses?". Moses never challenged that; he was justified in it, so that it was a sore attack but he had to face it. I think the position is very similar to Paul's at Corinth; he was in that sense in "the assembly in the wilderness", the jealous spirit rivalling him in those nearest to him.

Ques. Would you make any difference between challenging the ministry and instructing the servant as Aquila and Priscilla did Apollos?

J.T. That is another very beautiful side of the position; the brethren help you.

Rem. Aquila and Priscilla took Apollos to themselves.

J.T. Wisely avoiding anything open; they would not have gained anything that way.

E.L.M. Would you see the same grace in Paul going up to Jerusalem (Galatians 2:1)?

J.T. That is where there are persons of repute to challenge privately, which involves the wisdom that is necessary in the position.

J.L. Does it always need the two things, authority and moral weight, in order that recovery should come about?

J.T. I think moral weight should go with the gift; that is all observers have to go by. What you are with the Lord privately they do not know; what you find in Paul in the wilderness position is that he thrusts himself into the position, so that he was one of the elements to observe. "I have transferred ... to myself and Apollos, for your sakes, that ye may learn in us". The tendency amongst ministers is not always to pull together; it is always a difficult matter. They may pull together in a right cause, but the apostle places himself in that setting with Apollos, to show they were not partisan or had any understanding on any given line, they were moving in the unity of the Spirit. He throws himself

and Apollos into the position of rivalry, so that the others might learn in them what is according to God in ministers in those conditions. That is the way out of such conditions. Jehovah said, "Come out ye three" suddenly, and the three came out to the door of the tabernacle. There Jehovah justifies His servant. There is a man God can point to; always a great matter in a trouble. Someone God can approve leads the way out of the confusion. "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1). Paul points to himself by the Spirit, a testimony to the power the man had.

E.L.M. Does Paul take that up in the second scripture in not judging anything till the Lord comes?

J.T. That is what he says. The idea is that anyone that thinks of him should think of him in this way; he is open, and says, Let them think of us as "ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God". There were mysteries and he was in charge of them, like the storekeepers of old under David. There were stores where dedicated things were kept; and the apostle is a steward. As regards ourselves we are yours; that is, the true minister is the property of the saints; he is servant of all.

S.B. In that way he was morally great enough to reach every condition among the saints to profit?

J.T. Yes. He was there in a very humble attitude, but on the other hand he had a great charge, and that is to be respected. There is a tendency unconsciously to belittle the one who serves, and that may be overlooking the fact that he is a steward of God. A mystery to look after is a great matter!

P.L. "And say to Archippus, Take heed to the ministry which thou hast received in the Lord, to the end that thou fulfil it" (Colossians 4:17).

J.T. That is it. He is really a custodian of a mystery from God; he has to be regarded in that light.

E.L.M. What is the difference in the thought of servants of Christ, and being in responsibility to the Lord; what would be the relative thought in the two titles?

J.T. Of course the word "Christ" is more familiar, pointing to the Lord as in the anointing. As Christ, He is anointed to carry out the divine will; but as "Lord" it is His authority by which He governs us. In the first sense you feel you are with Him; If ye seek proof, the apostle says, of Christ speaking in me, it will be by seeing God's power. It is a precious thing to be alongside of Christ.

E.L.M. You would be in touch with the fulness of that vessel, Christ.

J.T. So that the commission places you on the same platform as Christ, in measure, and you are towards all in the ministry.

J.C. So that the idea of the Lord breathing into the disciples in John 20 is that the same power was to be theirs.

J.T. That is it. Saul was breathing out threatenings and slaughter -- what a different breath!

J.C. Does he come in later, on the line of Moses -- "Faithful in all mine house" (Numbers 12:7) -- in the support of his ministry?

J.T. That is helpful. How Jehovah justifies His servant, and not only that, but He calls attention to the fact that he was faithful in all God's house, a remarkable thing when you think of the assembly in the wilderness. Think of a man set to be faithful in all that; and then, "the man Moses was very meek, above all men that were upon the face of the earth" (Numbers 12:3). In the exercise of his ministry the man shone.

P.L. Do we have in his standing before Pharaoh, what he is in the presence of an adverse world? Then in the assembly in the wilderness, in Deuteronomy, what he is in power in the contrary conditions amongst the brethren, loving the christian circle;

and then, on the mount of transfiguration what he is in heaven?

J.T. Just so. What a field is covered in those books, and it might perhaps be helpful to remark that in Exodus we are on ministerial ground. Genesis is a testimony to God's work, what results from the work as left to itself; but when you come to the ministerial books, Exodus to Deuteronomy, God is saying, Things must be according to My way now. You have a living picture of Moses from the time he was a babe in Exodus, a history going back eighty years before he began to serve; and what you find is, that he did not fear the wrath of the king. He was not influenced in that way. In New Testament language you are not concerned with them that kill the body. Moses fled, and sits by a well, as if he had learnt that ministry is dependent on the power of the Spirit of God. With that he is disciplined for forty years; what a protracted process of training it is!

F.S.M. Is the servant sent forth conscious of the dignity of the service on account of his training, and yet lowly in the way the ministry is carried out?

J.T. That is the way it stands. As actually in the service, the Spirit says, "This is that Moses" (Exodus 6:27); he is the product of the discipline of God; that is what God needs in His servants.

E.T.S. "There arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face".

J.T. I suppose each minister has some distinction. The pronouncement "This is that Moses", indicates there is only that one; other ministers might get a vision, but not so Moses -- "the form of Jehovah doth he behold" -- we have Jehovah's word for it (Numbers 12:8). These appearances underlay the minister; the burning bush is the first one, so far as we can see.

T.T. Does every faithful servant count upon the appearance, and would the Lord confirm us by fresh impressions from time to time?

J.T. That is what comes out in Moses. Moses refers to the bush in the blessing of Joseph, "the goodwill of him that dwelt in the bush" (Deuteronomy 33:16) -- the sense of it never left him.

E.L.M. Is the confirmation increasing as with Paul?

J.T. Think of the appearance to Moses, and the innumerable speakings; Moses could always enter the holiest and hear the divine voice, and that is open to us. What underlies ministry is seeing God -- "the form of Jehovah doth he behold" -- I think God is set for more excellent service; He needs servants, and there are a few, but we are enjoined to pray that He will send out labourers into the harvest; but then, He sends finished labourers.

J.C. Would that be a stay for Moses at the time of the golden calf, what he saw in the bush?

J.T. It would enhance his horror of the awful sin that had been committed.

E.L.M. Is there not an idea of continuity in the service, and the testimony that Paul gives in Acts 26 was what he had gleaned from Moses? See verse 22.

J.T. Quite so. Then to move on to 2 Corinthians what may be remarked is that in the first epistle the apostle is speaking of his stewardship, but now as the competent minister of the new covenant. That is an advance in his service, so that he has something positive, not only the exercise of authority, but his hands are filled with something to minister to them positively. He has the love of God to minister; what a precious thought to bring God in in His love! God has made us "competent, as ministers of the new covenant", he says. "Not of letter, but of spirit"; that is a word we need; we are apt to get too literal about it. It is intended to broaden us spiritually, and enlarge us, so that our minds do not run in ruts in regard to the covenant. It is a question

of God's love; how can you minister that unless you have a broad outlook?

J.C. Would the competency be for the expression of the covenant?

J.T. I think so. He says, "Having this ministry"; he had it. He was the minister of the gospel to the church, but also of the new covenant, "having this ministry".

J.T.S. In speaking of abundantly loving them do you see something of that feature in Paul?

J.T. That is right; abundantly loving the brethren; if anyone challenged him he would say God knew he loved the saints. He loved the saints as Moses did.

S.B. Does the mention of Paul's conversion three times seem to enlarge upon it?

J.T. He mentions it twice, and the Holy Spirit mentions it the first time. He is able to speak of it according to his audience; he does not present it as repetition. In speaking to Agrippa he speaks of it as dignified; christianity did not put him below that. There is the side of dignity.

E.T.S. Might we have a word on chapter 11?

J.T. It was the thought of the Bridegroom and the bride. It will be observed he says in chapter 10:1, "I myself, Paul", there is someone like Moses, without a rival. There is no one like that. Elsewhere, it is "Such a one as Paul the aged" (Philemon 1:9), it is distinctive, and as the servant gets older it is not a question of years only, but of entering into those years of service, being such a one, calling attention to the outcome of those years. I apprehend his life was very full, for there is no evidence that he was very old in years as David was; it is a matter of what was compressed into those years.

P.L. David's life was full of days, riches and honour.

J.T. Yes. "Full of days", and what days they were! You marvel at the life of David! war, victories, armies that had to be formed, led, fed, clothed and furnished; and the psalms he wrote, and all the things that entered into his life in forty years. Lives of servants are compressed lives; more enters into them than into the ordinary lives of men.

E.T.S. So that we can be sympathetic with those that break down.

J.T. It is important that they should not.

E.L.M. Is there a point in the meekness and gentleness of Christ?

Rem. Moses felt the conditions too great but not so Paul.

J.T. Indeed we have to own that with Paul too; but the correspondence is striking as to the men, what they were as having to do with the church in the wilderness.

E.L.M. Can you not think of Paul leading armies and sending servants out here and there, as David marshalled his forces?

J.T. Think of the "burden of all the assemblies"! If you go over the assemblies now, and pray for them, how onerous a matter that is; but "the crowd of cares" that poured in upon him, besides the five floggings and all that is mentioned in this epistle, is only a part.

E.T.S. Would the thought of what the Bridegroom would get out of it be a stay to the servant in all his conflicts and exercises?

J.T. "Would that ye would bear with me in a little folly; but indeed bear with me. For I am jealous as to you with a jealousy which is of God; for I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ". That was what was in his mind. John spoke of his joy being full in hearing the voice of the Bridegroom, how much greater to bring in the bride!

H.P.T. You have the idea in occupying us with the servant that it is to lead on to Christ?

J.T. That is what all servants are for, to lead the saints on to Christ.

F.S.M. Would the apostle be compensated as seeing bridal features in the assembly?

J.T. So also in the epistle to the Thessalonians, and how the apostle speaks of them!

E.L.M. Is the climax in the end of Ephesians "All them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption" (chapter 5:24)?

J.T. So that in this epistle, "If any one love not the Lord Jesus Christ let him be Anathema Maranatha". The great point is love for Christ; and then in Ephesians "all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption". That is the end in view; and I believe Deuteronomy has that in view. Jehovah loved the people; Moses is victorious in Deuteronomy. Jehovah is angry with him for the people's sakes, never for himself.

E.T.S. So Moses sees the land.

J.T. He sees the land with the people in it, really. It corresponds with "raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6); you see them there.

LIBERTY

Galatians 5:1; Matthew 12:1 - 8; Revelation 21:9 - 11

I have in mind to speak of liberty, in a spiritual sense. It will be observed that in the passage in Matthew a particular time is stressed, and ministry of the word has to take account of time; so, I apprehend the thought of liberty is needed to be stressed at the present time. The epistle to the Galatians was written in regard to the conditions of that particular time and particular place, in order to assert the principle of "the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free". The enemy endeavoured at that time to snatch it away from the saints, for the apostle tells us that certain had crept in unawares to spy out the liberty which we have in Christ Jesus. That persons should trouble themselves in that way to enter clandestinely amongst the brethren to spy out their liberty, is remarkable, for it was not a commodity which they could steal and use; they could not seize it; but their object was purely to rob others, as we may say, of their inheritance. As a thing it would be impossible for them to steal it, but they spy it out, in order to deprive the saints of it, and destroy it as their portion. Such are the malicious tactics of the enemy always, to destroy for the sake of destroying what love has effected.

These are solemn suggestions as to what the enemy is constantly set for -- to destroy what we have, out of hatred; but against that the apostle stresses that Christ has set us "free in freedom" -- a remarkable expression -- and that we are to stand fast in the liberty.

Now my object mainly is to show how we come into this principle; for most of the brethren are not in it at all. Satan has succeeded in alluring many out

of the liberty with which Christ has set us free, and therefore the ministry of liberty has peculiar application in our times. Not only this, but those of us who have come into it are to stand in it, that others might come into it. For this, as in all else, we have to see it expressed in Christ. It enters into His remark to Thomas, "I am the way" (John 14:6); He is a way for us, and that involves how He moved here. He leads in everything, not only in teaching but in example too; that has to be understood. He requests in the end of Matthew 11 that all should come to Him: "Come to me, all ye who labour ... Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me". "Learn from me" is by His example, and the babes had to learn everything from Him. The Father, indeed, had revealed things to them, but had not become Man to be a leader for them, but the Son had. This is the way in which the expression "the way" is to be understood; that the Lord has to be understood as Leader in everything. God is leading many sons to glory, but has made our Leader "perfect ... through sufferings" (Hebrews 2:10). The thought of liberty is thus extremely important for us, as first exemplified for us in Christ. It is doubly important that we should learn it, because it is through us as having been taught that others learn it.

We read of "the revelation of the sons of God" (Romans 8:19), the whole creation looks for it; not perhaps with intelligence, but with instinct; it has been subjected to vanity, but it is to be released from the bondage of corruption "into the liberty of the glory of the children of God". You see how the saints of this dispensation are brought into the centre of things, in order that the whole realm of creation should be brought into liberty; that is, it awaits the revelation of the sons of God, and the liberty of the glory of the children of God -- a very touching thought! I believe that is bound up in sonship, in the peculiar way in which the saints are to be manifested by and

by, and when I say 'manifested' I allude to what we shall be. John, the apostle, says it is not yet manifested "what we shall be". We might assume that John knew what we shall be; he wrote long after the Lord was manifested in the flesh, but he says, "What we shall be has not yet been manifested" (1 John 3:2).

I want to dwell a moment upon that: "What we shall be", the apostle says, "has not yet been manifested", but "we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him" -- that is enough. What He is now is the point. There is what He was in the days of His flesh; His flesh was a veil indeed; and there is that which He was from the morning of resurrection to the day of ascension -- that is, what He was in a spiritual way. He had taken on a new condition; it involved complete superiority to matter; the point is it was spiritual. He moved in and out amongst them, disregarding what was material, so that the stress is upon the spiritual; but there is more than that attaching to His position in heaven. His position in heaven transcends all that is approachable by the human eye; even transfiguration is not equal to what He is now. He was transfigured before them on the holy mount, and John saw that, and nevertheless says, it is not manifested "what we shall be". That is as conformed to Christ in glory. He is received up in glory, but then He is all glorious; there is infinite radiance and light from Himself; it is not what He takes on, but what He is. He is transfigured before them, but what He is is from Himself; the increasing display of glory and greatness is of Himself. When He is manifested we shall be like Him, "for we shall see him as he is", not as He was. There is no change in the Person but there is change in what we see. Think of the manifestation of the sons of God, and then the liberty of the glory of the children of God! Creation comes into "the

liberty of the glory of the children of God", but our liberty exceeds all this; it comes nearer to the liberty of Christ.

I wish to show how this came about in the Lord. He moved through the corn; that was deliberate. The point is not what He said, but what He did. For young people here it is important to notice what spiritual persons do. In the gospels we have examples set by the Lord; in the Acts it is what the apostles and others who are spiritual do. The term 'Acts' is appropriate, because it describes what is visible, the inauguration of a state of liberty and glory in a moral sense. The apostle that was selected to replace Judas, was one that had companied with them the whole time from the baptism of John until He was received up; not a moment of that time was to be missed. The apostle to fill the place should be one of those; it is a question of what they were, not only of what they said. So in the gospels, it is not only a question of what the Lord said, but of what He was: He says, "Learn from me", that is, how He moved; these circumstances have their present force, and from them we learn how to move.

It was inevitable but that this movement should cut across what was current in Judaea, and Galilee, and Jerusalem, what was generally accepted, the legal obligations that honour the flesh. The Lord selected the sabbath to set out the principle of liberty He enjoyed. He made the law honourable, yet it was the law given by Moses, not what they had made it. It had been added to and perverted and had lost its identity in other hands, and they would not lift a finger to carry the burdens. He brought in a principle from heaven that has more than magnified and made it honourable; He moved in the liberty and dignity of a Man out of heaven. It was a new thing, and He moved here for God, but in doing this He cut athwart what was current religiously.

What I want to show is that it was a particular time when these instructions were necessary; He was leading His own on to the footing of the assembly. Aside from this teaching no one can be in the assembly according to God; he is in it in self-occupation unless he understands what the Lord had in mind in this action. He entered into the cornfields, that is all -- He led the way. That is what I would say to any who need liberty. The disciples did more than that, but He intended them to do it. The Lord gives you a lead in the corn on the sabbath day. You are transgressing the law in the eyes of the religious world; they will not overlook this. Never mind; you are being extricated; you are coming out of bondage and that can only be said of the christian as the whole person, including the spirit, is in liberty. You have not received the spirit of bondage but the spirit of adoption. The apostle says we cry, "Abba, Father" by that Spirit. Maybe you are not doing that? That is, He takes us out of the religious world and gives us access to God. He cries Himself in the saints; the Holy Spirit does not cry aside from the saints; but He is here, in relation exactly to what the Lord did in this chapter. He cries, "Abba, Father"; it is urgent -- and He makes you feel it is urgent; and He points out to you in the gospel of Mark that the Lord Jesus did that, He cried "Abba, Father" by the Spirit.

"Ye have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father"; there is now an outlet to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is here in relation to what the Lord did to make it experimentally true in the christian, that we have access to the Father. You can appropriate also anything there is to eat for food. Many are restricted from reading and appropriating what God provides in the way of food.

The Lord Himself was the food. That enters into the passage. He Himself was the cornfield and the

grain, and He would lead them into the liberty of partaking of it. He does not pluck the corn, but He does enough to set their souls on the line of liberty. They saw it and acted accordingly; they got food. Many of our brethren are starving; the enemy sees to it that they do not reach such books as would provide for what their souls need to eat. The Lord would virtually say to us, I have come down from heaven to be food, and the enemy's business is to prevent your partaking of what is under your hand. He went into the cornfield. Christianity is not an order of things that is to be understood from the dictionary or concordance; it is intelligent and you know what you are doing. The business of the minister is to be what he teaches, so that the saints might see what is meant; it was so with Christ, and with Paul, and in measure is so with us today. The Lord says, I am "altogether that which I also say to you" (John 8:25). He had in mind that they should partake of what was available in Him. His disciples follow Him, and rub the corn in their hands and that would be food for their bodies; but it is spiritual food for us, and it is for those who minister to show the way.

This brought out opposition, and if there are those who are stirred up by what I am saying, you are sure to find opposition. It may be from your family, or neighbours or work-fellows, but you will find opposition.

The next thing is, the Lord defines the position. The complaint is about the disciples; that is how the matter stands today; people profess to revere the Lord, but the attack is upon those who follow His example. These people are not following in the way of accepted religion, they say. It is a way of liberty; whatever opposition you encounter in the way, do not give up; Christ has set us free. The Lord defined the position, dealing with the situation by the

Scriptures. Many recognise the Scriptures today, hence the value of the weapon we have to use.

One loves to think of the Lord speaking of the great servant in this way. David was young, and fleeing from the murderous enmity of Saul, and the Lord says, "He entered into the house of God". Men say, Unless you are a priest you have no status; David was not a priest officially, but he was more priestly than Ahimelech! There are those today, moving about in their daily occupations, that are priests because they have the Spirit. David knew how to use the ephod; it belonged to the priests, and he knew how to use it; God honoured him and answered him. He goes to Ahimelech and enters into the house of God. People say, Who are you? We know who we are; we are part of the house of God. David entered into it. One would commend that to you.

How heaven looked down on that young man, fleeing from the enmity of Saul, and entering into the house of God! All he had was a few loaves, but it was not apart from the place. Ahimelech suffered and God will honour that; but he did not understand David.

That is the need for us: to know what is under our hand. We hear of meetings very small and isolated; the persons who visit them are few; there is no gift, but the point that David makes is, What have you got here? Look round and see what you have got. That is the priest. The liberty the Lord is seeking to lead His people into is seen in this, in the type. The Lord says this is only for the priests; but David explained what Ahimelech did not understand, that it is in measure common.

Then David says, Have you got a sword? In a small meeting some have no idea of conflict. The best sword there was was there, but Ahimelech was doing nothing with it. That is how it stands in the smaller gatherings, and sometimes in the larger ones;

it is a question of conflict. You may depend the enemy will not leave you alone if you are going on with God. Ahimelech says, The sword here is the sword you took from Goliath. The Edomite was there. Why did not Ahimelech use the sword there upon the brother who had come in to spy out the liberty? Why not use the sword against that Edomite? Ahimelech did not understand that there was an enemy right there in Doeg, a false brother who crept in unawares. Ahimelech had liberty to give David the loaves, but the liberty was not protected, he exposed the fact to Doeg. The best sword was there, wrapped behind the ephod; it would look as though the ephod and sword were not being used, and that is what it is.

You can picture to yourselves what a scene it was in Matthew 12, the Lord defending the liberty of His disciples, the liberty He had brought in. The Lord was using the sword of Goliath, and thus put the enemies to silence; He then proceeds to say, "The Son of man is Lord of the sabbath". Condemnation of the guiltless marks our times, and it is because people do not understand the Scriptures. The Lord rises to the great height of the Son of man being Lord of the sabbath.

Now I want to say a word about the passage in Revelation 21. I conceive the chapter to set out liberty in the greatest way. Revelation sets out great concrete, spiritual things, and the greatest of these is the assembly; we should keep our eye upon that. The Spirit of God does not forget what it has been, but dwells upon what it shall be; the latter glory is to be greater than the former. The greatest expression of liberty is there. I am not alluding to the Lord, but to what it is in believers.

One of the angels that had had the last plagues, one who had had to do with the false church, Babylon, takes John to see the wonderful vessel of liberty and

glory. I am speaking from the standpoint of liberty: "And he carried me away in the Spirit, and set me on a great and high mountain, and shewed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God". The word, "from God" I would allude to in passing. John the baptist is said to be "a man sent from God"; it is not that he was called from a distance into the royal presence to receive a commission, and then to be sent forth; the idea is, he is sent as being with God. To be with God, and come from God, is not to be learnt when we go to heaven; the education of the assembly is now, we learn how to get with God now. This education enters into the spirit we have received, the spirit of adoption. What a difference from the spirit of Rome! "Ye have not received a spirit of bondage again for fear" (Romans 8:15) -- the current spirit of Rome, but "a spirit of adoption", and christians characteristically cry, "Abba, Father".

I would especially urge young brothers and sisters to get to God, to have your soul flooded with the sense of the presence of God. I am speaking now of going in to God, and of coming out from Him, out of heaven. By that I mean practically, that one learns to turn to one's closet. One said, "Teach us to pray", (Luke 11:1), and the Lord did it. Now, says the Lord, "enter into thy closet, and ... pray to thy Father which is in secret". That is the surest way to get the knowledge of the holiest; it is as you enter into your closet and speak to the Father in secret, that your soul becomes flooded with the sense of what Christ is before God. He is the One that is delightful to God, and the One who has done all His will. To see Him thus produces restfulness, and one comes out to shine like Moses. Moses' face shone with what is inside with God. That is what is in the mind in this allusion to the bride, the Lamb's wife "coming down out of the heaven from God". She had been with

God; she had been placed in heaven, but that she was with God is the point. What would heaven be without God? What would it be without Christ, or the Spirit, or the saints? The saints are essential to heaven.

Moses was shown the land with the people in it; he was shown where Dan was, and where Judah was; that is a wonderful sight! I am speaking of what it is to be with God; we are being fitted now to be with God. It is said indeed, of this wonderful vessel, the city, that "the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof".

Access is open for the christian to God, hence we come down out of heaven, from God. The assembly belongs to heaven as Christ does. The Father is of heaven, the Son is of heaven, the Spirit is of heaven, and the assembly also; it is our native place. We come down "out of heaven", not sent as Jesus was; she is seen coming down out of heaven "having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious", and she has "a wall great and high". In the holy liberty in which we are set now, as then, there is protection against evil; there are those who would break down the wall, but it is essential to the glorious liberty in which we are set. It has its counterpart now, in the maintenance of the fellowship in which we are set, and which secures the liberty which the enemy would spy out and destroy. The enemy is apt to creep in unawares; there is constant need of watchfulness so that the liberty should not be destroyed.

That is all I have to say, and I think you will see the applicability of it at this juncture, that we should stand fast in the liberty that Christ has secured, and in which He has set us free.

PERSONALITY

Luke 5:12 - 14; Luke 1:80; 1 Samuel 14:6 - 15

I have in view, dear brethren, to speak of personality as entering into the testimony as that which opens up to us opportunities of testimony; firstly, in the young believer -- personality as it shows itself in the believer at the outset, as the effect of the work of the Lord in him, answering his needs as accruing from the working of sin in him; secondly, personality as in the servant of Christ or of God, the servant viewed as in John the baptist; and thirdly, personality in conflict.

Under these three heads I propose to speak of personality as the result of the work of God in believers. Personality must, as with all else, be understood first in Christ; and as in Him, we see how the unregenerate mind is unable to take account of or rightly estimate the personality in man that is according to the mind of God. "When we shall see him", say the unregenerate Jews, "there is no beauty that we should desire him" (Isaiah 53:2). In their view He was without form or lordliness such as the natural mind would esteem; whereas in the esteem of those who become subjects of the work of God amongst the Jews, he was regarded as "the chiefest among ten thousand" and "altogether lovely" (Song of Songs 5:10,16). Such is the immeasurable difference between the estimate of personality according to God in the unregenerate, and in those who are the subjects of His gracious work by the Spirit.

David of old typifies Christ in this respect, above all others, and is especially presented to us according to his personality, including his appearance, not only in his moral traits, but physically. Over against him were such as Saul, a man of appearance according to

the flesh. He hid himself indeed, during the process of determination of the king which he was to be; Jehovah graciously performing this service for his people, and directing them to find him among the stuff. That is a very humiliating place to be found -- among the baggage! As found, he was an imposing man, but very much of Philistine character; head and shoulders above his brethren, a big man. So with the Philistines, they are those marked by this feature; whether it be physical or educational, the character of bigness was accorded current value then, as now.

Over against such personality we have David, of whom it is said he was a man that could play well, a valiant man, a man of war, and, according to the statement of the Spirit of God, a man with a ruddy countenance and a beautiful appearance. All this is noted over against Eliab, Saul and others, and as we have this description of his personal beauty and attractiveness, we have his name given; that is, his name covers all this. When the name David is given for the first time, it is said, "The Spirit of the Lord came upon David" -- meaning Beloved -- (1 Samuel 16:13) that was his name; known already, even in obscurity, to heaven, and loved as worthy of love. That has always to be borne in mind; we are to be lovable if we are expecting to be loved. God, indeed, may love us otherwise, being God, but if we expect to be loved it is necessary that we shall be lovable; that is "David" as a name signifies the thought.

This thought, so presented, in such a distinct manner and with such detail by the Spirit, in David as a type of Christ in this respect as in others, is to begin with the believer as he comes in for the benefits of the work of Christ; as he becomes the subject of the touch, the identifying service of Christ; for that is the way we have to view this passage in Luke 5; He identifies Himself with us in touching us. If He

identifies Himself with us to relieve us from the result of sin, it is that the hideous results of sin should be replaced by His own beautiful traits. It is most logical that it should be so. That we should come into relief of conscience, and retain the ugly traits of sin, taking on the ways of the world's fashion, is a poor answer to the touch of Christ, for His touch implies that He has had to enter into the depths of death and judgment that we might be relieved of these awful features of sin. What can be more abhorrent in that sense than leprosy? The man was full of it. The Lord touches him, saying, "Go, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing as Moses ordained, for a testimony to them", not to the priest alone, but to the whole system. You see, therefore, dear brethren, this passage brings the idea of personality and testimony within the range of every believer, old or young; that at least he has himself to present as testimony. 'Yes', you may say, 'but what about Christ?' That is true if I am speaking, but the Lord did not send him to speak, He told him to show himself. Let that have its own significance, to the priest and to his class; here is a changed person, hitherto leprous, full of it, in a certain town -- now he is cleansed.

Let us suppose the priest knew him before, what a change now! How is it, dear young people, in this respect with you? You got light in your soul a few nights ago through the preaching, relief to the soul, joy came into your soul; but perhaps only momentarily and you have lapsed back a bit into your old ways, retaining your old appearance in dress, or your old manners in the office, or on the street, among your acquaintance. Where is the testimony? I am not speaking of what you say, but what you are -- a cleansed leper by profession, but with no appreciable change in your manner and, I may add, in your associations. The Lord would lay it upon your now,

that you are to be a witness because of what you are personally; that is to say, you are changed. Your old tastes do not remain in you. Moab had "not been emptied from vessel to vessel" and his natural taste remained (Jeremiah 48:11); as professedly believing in Christ you may be sure you will be emptied from vessel to vessel. God has determined to change you. The change is from within, but it is not a mere automatic change, your intelligence is brought in. You have begun to reckon that these things are not in keeping with the light that is in your soul; thus we are all sent in testimony as evidence of the change in us.

Romans contemplates that the young believer gets a mind, and that that mind becomes dominant in him; he says, "I myself with the mind serve God's law" (chapter 7:25) -- that is how the change comes about. It is intelligent, so that we present our bodies "a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your intelligent service" (chapter 12:1). If I present my body to God, it concludes that life, and I can turn round and present it before men, so that the word immediately is, "Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God" (chapter 12:2). He says, "with the mind I myself serve the law of God"; the Holy Spirit enables me to retain that throughout my history here, and my personality according to God increases. You have in the last chapter of Romans a wonderful picture of men and women who had personality, as if the Spirit of God would give us examples. He begins with the sisters; there are many sisters in the list. They resided in Rome, the capital of the world, and they had the advantage of a testimony there; some were of Caesar's household, such is God's way.

"Shew thyself to the priest", says the Lord, "for a testimony to them". Every step of the movement

of that leper as he moved towards the priest was delightful to heaven; he was not like the ten sent uncleansed to the priest in chapter 17, that is another matter. This one was sent cleansed to the priest, and heaven saw moral beauty and personality developing in the cleansed leper; he might retain the marks of his degradation, but this would only betoken what a work was done in him. Simon, the leper, entertained Christ; the ten were sent uncleansed; the point in them was obedience, not the touch of Christ. The first, I apprehend, refers to the Lord's coming here in incarnation; He could only touch us thus as He went into death for us, but in sending ten uncleansed lepers to the priest, it was a matter of authority, a question of service on high inaugurating the dispensation of faith. In going they were cleansed; and one returns to the Lord Jesus and falls down, and gives glory to God; he became a worshipper; he had no word for that, but he came at once into the liberty of faith, and became possessed of instincts, and knew that the One who commanded him to go, was God Himself. In either case you see personality, in the one, a cleansed leper under the eye of the priest, and in the other, cleansed as he obeyed. Instead of going to the priest he instantly came back to his Cleanser -- to One who has authority to command. He worshipped. In either case you see those who come in for the relief that His work brings. Where they had dishonoured God, there is a new personality; "newness of life" shows itself in them.

I go on now to John. It is a question with John the baptist of his showing to Israel, not to the priest. His father was a priest, and had just been uttering most priestly words, but in these words he speaks of Christ, and not of John. Then he comes to John, and addresses him as "Child", as if the voice of God through the priest, addresses the young

potential servant -- for that is what John was then -- as "Child". Such terms are fitting for a Levite, for they were such potentially from one month old, but this particular one is so addressed, the only one addressed thus. Samuel comes close, as placed in the house of God. It may be the Lord has a voice to some potential servant here; you are but a child spiritually as yet. It is one thing to accept the levitical number from one month old; eight thousand were held for service, and much is said of them in the book of Numbers up to the end of chapter 4; then we get chapters 5, 6 and 7, ending with the wealth of the princely offerings, and then the divine speaking; and then the Levites are presented in chapter 8. Now, think of yourself, young brother, as a potential servant, for you cannot waive that privilege or obligation: it rests upon you. "Thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest"; it rests upon you.

In Numbers 8 they are presented to Jehovah, and then are given to Aaron and his sons for service; such is the outlook of the young Levite.

So they are presented to God, and God says virtually, I will increase them. They are so lovely in My eyes I will increase their number; not the number from a month old, but from thirty years old. They are lovely, fully developed Levites, and He reduced the age limit to twenty-five (verse 24); that is to say, there would be an increase of Levites by one-sixth. God loves the Levites as presented according to His own mind, acting here in bearing burdens, taking on service, but with personality underlying it all. There is not a family in the universe like them! They are all first-born ones: as it says of the assembly, the "assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven" (Hebrews 12:23).

Is it not attractive? I think it is. It should be to every one of us. You are to go before the face of the

Lord to make His way straight; think of the dignity of that!

The verse in Luke 1 says, "he was in the deserts until the day of his shewing to Israel". How am I going to appear to Israel? Not to the Jews -- Israel is a spiritually dignified term, for the saints viewed as the Israel of God have beauty and dignity. The word means 'Prince'; they belong to the nobility, and if you are shown to them they will discern facts. I am not against education, but as to the matter of ministry it has no place; God goes out of His way to show He does not need it. I am not here to decry anything necessary in the service of God, but I am speaking of the spiritual eye of Israel, how critical that is.

We have been dwelling upon John the baptist, and I need not go further than to say it is a question of personality as in the saints viewed spiritually. There is no hope of escape, and moral defects will all be detected, and you cannot hide them. We must make up our minds for this time of our showing to Israel -- how are we to be acceptable? Where are we to get our training? In the deserts. The use of the plural, I suppose, would mean it is more rigorous, the desert characteristically increases; the educational grades are more rigorous as we go on. I have to apply myself to the teaching and there is nothing for the flesh there. There are those who wear horsehair next the skin and do damage to themselves; but that is not the thought. These are deserts; there are many deserts in Scripture, and I believe they provide the school for the levite; the sowing is all to the Spirit, and the reaping is life everlasting, showing that personality is marked by life. It is there; it is a wilderness personality, developed in the refusal of the flesh.

Finally, now I speak of conflict. This section from which I have read in 1 Samuel gives you a sorry picture of the state of things under Saul. He began

fairly well; the Spirit of God came upon him; but this section contemplates him as rejected. God has already begun with another man, and Saul is left to do the best he can in the flesh, and the best he can do is most miserable. Jonathan here represents the work of God. That is where the levite shines; he works with God. I rise to that level, as the apostle John says, "Our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son" (1 John 1:3). They were on that level in their service. Jonathan wrought with God, and men of initiative do this in a dark day. Apostasy was never more rampant than today; nation after nation is taking on an apostate role, but in the dark day there are levites of God, military men, and they are working with God in secret; they have initiative. Jonathan takes on his armour-bearer only recognising the principle that "two are better than one". That is the position of the military man today, the point is to work with God. With God you get the initiative; there is power to move in leadership whatever there is to be done; and the proposal of Jonathan is that under certain circumstances we will show ourselves to the Philistines. Hidden for the moment, he resolved to retrieve the position; he resolved in faith with God, that He can deliver, that nothing is impossible: let us show ourselves to them. What are we in the eyes of these big men? David was a stripling in the eyes of Goliath; the Philistine has no eye for that beauty. Jonathan says, "We will shew ourselves to them. If they say thus to us ... Come up to us, then we will go up; for Jehovah has given them into our hand". I am not speaking of faith, though it is wonderfully present here, but of the showing. Two are better than one in this respect, as in others; they shall have reward for their labour, we need not be afraid to take on another in the holy work of God. The true levitical instinct is for victory that God gives in faith. "We will shew ourselves";

and they did. The Philistines said, "Come up to us, and we will shew you a thing"; they have the whip hand, as, of course, they have in their own estimation! These men around us are all this kind; they all say, 'We will show you a thing'. What can they show us? They can show us nothing to any advantage, but it was a sign, I believe, a boast with the Philistines, that they could show things, but a sign to Jonathan of their destruction. Whatever the combination, victory belongs to faith, and Jonathan in the humble way, went up on hands and feet. Think of these great men accepting such a humble mode of attack; but it is the successful one.

Jonathan is the leader, and the armour-bearer follows, as with Gideon and his three hundred men. Personality is seen in this leadership, and Jonathan and his armour-bearer slew twenty men in half an acre of land. Think how God acted as these men show themselves, encouraged by the sign God gave, so that the victory was complete.

I think you will see what I mean. I think every christian here will see the need for personality, according to Christ, in all this. The position is, that the testimony will go on, and the end in victory is sure.

KNOWLEDGE

John 6:67 - 69; Hosea 6:3; Zechariah 11:11

I have in mind to speak about knowledge, as in the expression "the knowledge of the Holy", involving spiritual knowledge -- a very wide and great subject. I shall endeavour to be concise, for in no sense could anyone be exhaustive, in fact, no one should attempt to be exhaustive in addressing the people of God as to Christ and His things. We can only know in part, and understand and speak in part, for speaker and hearers are necessarily limited; and the Lord graciously presents the truth to us in part, or in parts, taking account of our limitations, and specially as to our capacity for retention. Take, for instance, the garments of the high priest; in the types they are brought before us in parts, necessarily so, one garment covering him altogether, as you might say -- the cloak; for personal beauty and line and grace are not what are prominent in service, but efficiency. There is, therefore, a great covering garment, which could not have been on the Beloved One who is described in the Song of Songs -- for the spouse speaks of him in part according to his personal figure, graces, members: that is a question of love, of reciprocated love. But in service that is not the prominent thought, but efficiency. The garments of the high priest are given separately and are severally described, so that we may take them in severally and, according to our measure, piece them together and see them all in order upon him. I mention that, dear brethren, to illustrate what I have in mind before I proceed. There is no question of presenting anything exhaustive, but what may serve in part that we may learn; for each of these meetings is intended thus, that we should learn one thing at a time -- we are scarcely

able for more; not that each one may not get some feature for himself, but generally that is the intent in these meetings.

So I take up Peter to illustrate how knowledge is acquired, "the knowledge of the holy", as I may say, for that is what he had in mind in his answer to the Lord's enquiry. He places faith before knowledge, for the knowledge of God and of Christ and of the things of God and of Christ, heavenly things, can only be taken in or possessed by believers. The natural intellect may go some way, but the natural mind never has a right thought on the things of God. I doubt very much whether any creed gives the right thought of any doctrine, the right spiritual intent in it; all must be on the principle of faith, and in truth faith is what is impossible to the natural man. Faith has not to do with what is visible, the bearing of it is upon what is invisible, and that is necessarily outside the range of the natural mind. So Peter here is one of "the twelve", he appears as representative of the twelve whom the Lord had chosen: He says, "Have not I chosen you the twelve?" -- he is representative of them in this particular setting. And in his answer to the Lord's enquiry, "Will ye also go away?", he indicates plainly for us the way of knowledge. So we should pay strict attention to the words, which indeed the Authorised Version does not give correctly, but in the New Translation it reads, "We have believed and known" -- that is spiritual history which ought to set every believer in motion as it is presented to him. It is well to be directed back to your spiritual history; we are very fond of reverting to our birthdays and to anything that gives us distinction since those days -- the camera helps in that way, as well as the autograph album -- but it is well to take a retrospective view of one's whole spiritual history. A believer is an entity, he is a known entity in heaven -- a very great fact -- he is in the 'Who's

Who' book there certainly. Much perhaps is known there that even he has now forgotten. It is a great comfort, in one way, that things are not forgotten, that nothing is omitted there. I believe the histories of God's people are a perfect delight to God, as He is able to view them abstractly -- to view them apart from what may be discreditable; not that He omits that either, a solemn matter! -- but God takes account of His own abstractly, that is leaving out, as He alone can, what is not to be included finally. God can afford to do that, speaking reverently, and indeed, I can afford to do it as to myself too. It is a poor thing to pursue a line and keep adding to what must be left out finally -- yet, alas, one can do that. John's first epistle is intended to teach us how to think abstractly; how to reckon with God according to His work in us, how to understand that, as Christ is, "we also are in this world" (chapter 4:17) and that "every one begotten of God does not sin", that he "keeps himself and the wicked one does not touch him" (chapter 5:18). That is a part of our education, beloved friends, that is perhaps little understood, but it is a very great part; that one is entitled, and indeed required, to take a view of one's spiritual history, to go over it: that is what the wilderness, in one sense, is intended to teach us -- the wilderness in the book of Numbers. It is after they reach what we speak of as the springing well, a well that sprang up after it was digged. Digging is a process that is not seen at the beginning, it is a habit you acquire, meaning the removing of what hinders the springing up of the Spirit. There is something within that is wonderful -- let it come up, give it vent! You acquire the habit of removing what hinders, and what follows on that is movement. After the digging here, they moved on, as you will remember, until they got to Pisgah, which, as we are told, "looks over the surface of the waste" (Numbers 21:20); that is, it is a sort of retrospective view of

the wilderness -- as to what God has been to them in it. You may take account of all that history as to what God has been to you, and what you have been to God. How Caleb would have loved to do that! Caleb and Joshua came out of Egypt, and entered into Canaan, they represent the spiritual element in the christian that goes right through. Take Joshua -- how he would revert to his companionship with Moses on the mount, and what hundreds of things he would recall! And so Caleb -- on the confines of the land -- looks back some forty or forty-five years and tells Joshua what he was then; he did not forget. That was history, spiritual history. And, having reviewed it and put it in its order in the present -- what a present! -- what does faith say? "What hath God wrought!" (Numbers 23:23) -- that is what faith says; not what I have done; I have to put my hand upon my mouth in regard to that, and cover it; I may have much to be ashamed of, but "What hath God wrought!". In spite of what I have done, in spite of what I have been, He carries on His work. A study of the book of Deuteronomy will fill your soul with this line of things. The blessing of Moses the man of God is not anticipative, it is retrospective; the things he speaks of in the tribes were in some sense practical, that is, they denote what God has wrought, and that leads to praise. "At this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought!". Heaven knows all that; God is eternally occupied, every day, and every hour, and every minute, with His own work; far transcending the interest He had in the great physical system is His delight in the work He is carrying on moment by moment in myriads of persons, with the great result to bring into view, what He has wrought!

Well now, I think Peter gives us the clue to this; he says, "We have believed and known". What have they believed? and what have they known? That

the One who was despised amongst them and had been rejected of men was the Christ. You may say, 'No wonder Peter knew that, for the Father told him'; but that is not the point here, the point here is past spiritual history. "We have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God"! -- that was what they had come to. That is to say, it is a question of faith first, faith in the Lord Jesus as to who He was; not yet, what He could do; faith in His saving work will come in later; the point here is who He was. How can I start out in the field of knowledge save as I get to the Centre of it, to the Source of it, to the Sustainer of it? And that is Christ -- who He is -- "the holy one of God". Beginning with Him, there is no end really to the knowledge -- it ever widens and deepens. "Thou art the holy one of God", Peter says, "we have believed and known" it. I would again suggest, dear brethren, the importance of looking back in this sense, and seeing how you have begun, and whether you have been building up on a right foundation in regard to the knowledge you have acquired.

Well now, the Old Testament ever supports what we get in the New, and in the book of Hosea we have, "We shall know"; this is, as I may say, the spirit of prophecy; but it is also the spirit of the remnant, and it is a great matter to come into possession of the spirit of the remnant. There is, in the Old Testament, the Spirit of Christ, the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of the remnant. The spirit of the remnant is a humble, broken spirit, with nothing vaunting about it, for they are just a remnant, marked by tears as to what had been, joy as to what will be, and present comfort in what is, for God never forsakes His people: the spirit of the remnant marks what has been, and what will be, and what is. That is, there is enough to sustain faith in the darkest period of the history of God's people. The prophets

are of immense importance in that way, the spirit of Christ in them is full of victory, of battling with every possible difficulty and overcoming it; that is the spirit of Christ. It was remarkably portrayed in the passage in Zechariah, a most vigorous chapter on the part of the Spirit of Christ, even as to the destruction of the shepherds, that the poor of the flock might be saved. So in Hosea 6, the remnant speak of revival, of being raised up: "the third day he will raise us up", a beautiful understanding of the principle of resurrection. "On the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live before his face" (verse 2). What confidence! what victory indeed, there is in that! And so it goes on, "And we shall know" -- one would love to see the young brothers and sisters moving in this way -- they are, I believe, but there is a great lack of energy in following things up: the Spirit of God is active constantly in bringing things out for us, bringing things to our attention. The apostle says to Timothy, "Thou hast been thoroughly acquainted" or, as it may read 'hast fully followed up'. It is rarely that one meets with a young brother who fully follows up the thread of the testimony, that which God is continuously and constantly presenting by one and another. We cannot afford to miss any of it. "Thou hast been thoroughly acquainted", says the apostle, "with my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, endurance, persecutions, sufferings" (2 Timothy 3:10). I believe Timothy would read every letter that he heard Paul had written; I believe that he would seek to hear every address that Paul gave, every word that he spoke. That was the attitude of Timothy, and it is the attitude that is proper to our time; it is urgent that nothing should be omitted that the Lord gives. So here, "We shall know", that is the statement, there is no doubt about it -- then "we shall know" -- why should not I know if others do? Why should I be ignorant if others

know? I know of no reason why any one of us here should not know; it is a question of diligence. Here the spirit of the remnant says, "We shall know", but it does not stop there -- "We shall follow on to know" -- that is resolve. Resolution is a great matter in the things of God, as in all else -- "we shall follow on to know". And then it adds for encouragement -- the spirit of the remnant says, "His going forth is assured as the morning dawn; and he will come unto us as the rain, as the latter rain which watereth the earth". That is the expectation, dear brethren. How beautiful and exhilarating is the thought! Think of the Lord Jesus, for instance, as He rose from the dead, His going forth, what that meant -- it was truly the dawn of morning. Did one have the opportunity of watching with intelligence the movements of Christ, His going forth, how exhilarating and refreshing it would be! how full of hope is His going forth! And then His coming "as the rain"; how the Lord comes in on His people refreshing us, as He does! Many of us know it. These things are set together as incentives to us in following on. Let us not be weary, beloved, in following up the things the Lord gives. There is no thought of His relaxing in this respect, the ministry will go on. I see the Lord preparing for it in the many young He is raising up to serve as it is going on, and He is preparing them that it should go on, and it is for us generally to follow it up. "We shall follow on to know Jehovah", and there will be ample recompense for us in His going forth and His coming upon us as a refreshing rain causing fruitfulness to God, and refreshment to ourselves.

Then in chapter 11 of the prophet Zechariah, we have, as I said, great vigour in the Spirit of Christ. This often appears amongst us: occasions arise which call for vigour -- vigorous dealing with what is opposed; and for discrimination too; so that the

poor of the flock come distinctly into view. That is a great matter, to bring them clearly into view -- the poor of the flock. They are called in this chapter "the flock of slaughter"; that is to say, the saints of God, as faithful in any given time, are viewed thus: they are always exposed, as the apostle said, "We are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Romans 8:36). But then he adds, "In all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us" (verse 37). The poor of the flock are regarded peculiarly in this chapter. Jehovah says, "Feed the flock of slaughter, whose possessors slay them without being held guilty; and they that sell them say, Blessed be Jehovah! for I am become rich; and their own shepherds pity them not". How vigorous that is! The servant's business is to feed the flock of slaughter, and the true servant will see that he does; he said, "I fed the flock of slaughter, truly the poor of the flock ... And I destroyed three shepherds in one month". How vigorous he was; and in times like these vigour is required, in facing things, but making sure of the flock, the poor of the flock, and providing for them. That is the spirit of the shepherd, providing for the poor of the flock, and, in providing for them, the Lord in spirit says, "The poor of the flock that gave heed to me knew that it was the word of Jehovah". It is a comfort to every servant that he may be assured of this, that if he feeds the poor of the flock, they will, as it says, give heed to him. You may be sure of that. Of course this is speaking of Christ, in the full sense of it, but then all the under-shepherds necessarily take character from Christ, and if I feed the flock, they will wait upon me; it is to their advantage to wait upon him who feeds them, but they do it in love. How the poor of the flock were attached to Christ when He was here! Take those women who followed Him from Galilee -- that was a long way for women

in those days, there was very little provision, I apprehend, for travel. They followed Him to the cross; they stood by the cross of Jesus; they followed Him to the limit, as I might say. What comfort it would have given to the Lord as He hung there to look upon them! How attached to Him they were! Luke says they "ministered to him" in following Him. They did not look for recompense, nor for their travelling expenses; no, they thought only of Him: they ministered to Him of their substance, they waited upon Him! Did they have any doubt as to Him? None; they "knew", it says, "that it was the word of Jehovah". Is there not a great lesson in that for us all? As fed by the Good Shepherd through the under-shepherds, we wait upon them, we feel how essential they are to us, every one of them, and "the poor of the flock" discern "the word of Jehovah" -- they "knew", it says, "that it was the word of Jehovah"; no less than that! Not simply the word of an ordinary rabbi, which term Judas could use -- no, they would say, like Mary Magdalene, "Rabboni", my Teacher; or they would say "Lord", like Mary of Bethany; they would sit at His feet. Did Mary of Bethany ever question, think you, what Jesus said? Never; it was to her "the word of Jehovah". And as I am ministered to, I minister, I wait upon those that minister, and I have discernment; I know the word of the Lord when I hear it. "The poor of the flock that gave heed to me knew that it was the word of Jehovah". Let others say what they will, the poor of the flock know; that is an immense thing that there are some anyway, who are fed as the poor of the flock, who know the word of the Lord. The servant can be assured of this, dear brethren, that those that are ministered to, those that are fed, will discern; the poor of the flock will discern the true ministry, they will discern the word of God, that is, the word of Jehovah, as it says here.

That is all I have in mind, dear brethren. There is much, as I said before, that could be said on this great subject. If one were to go into Ephesians, for instance, with one's little ability, what a field there is! The principle there is just what I have been saying; the apostle says, "Having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is in you, and the love which ye have towards all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention of you at my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory" -- think of all that, think of what was in his mind -- "would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him, being enlightened in the eyes of your heart, so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe" (chapter 1:15 - 19) Who can go over that wonderful field? But it is for us and the Holy Spirit would lead us on; if we follow on to know, we shall get into that great Ephesian field of knowledge. How infinitely beyond any field of scientific knowledge, so-called, is the knowledge of God in His great thoughts. And the Holy Spirit in us would give us the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him!

LEADERSHIP

Psalm 107:7; Psalm 77:20; Micah 6:4; Psalm 78:70 - 72

I have in mind to occupy us with leadership, but particularly in view of the end of it, that is the "city of habitation". The reference to it in Scripture helps to give lustre to the subject on the journey to it. God would set before us, especially young christians, an end to be desired, in calling us out of the world. It is said that those of old who were called out might have returned had they been so minded; but they were not so minded, "they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly", so that it is said, "God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city" (Hebrews 11:16). That thought is never lost sight of in the Scriptures; the Psalms take it up, particularly the last book, a book that has the city in view, a book which contains the songs of degrees, of ascent, as if those who had the city before them are buoyant and not mournful. If they are in Babylon they are mournful, they hang their harps on the willows, refusing to gratify the natural mind with the songs of Zion. The natural mind of man is not to be gratified with these holy songs. The songs of Zion belong to Zion, they only fit there; and this book of the Psalms contemplates that there are those who had been in Babylon, but who are now on their way to Zion. They are on their way to Jerusalem, "a city of habitation".

Hence the significance of the thought in Psalm 107, reverting back to the early history of God's people, and indeed, the early history of us all; for God does go back to our early days, and would encourage us to go back to them. Sometimes they are humiliating, as they verily are if we look at our own ways, but if we think of God, what He has been to us, they occasion

encouragement. The book of Deuteronomy, for instance, from the pen of the great mediator, views what their history had been, but after they themselves had received and recognised the Spirit typically they move forward until they reach Pisgah, "which looks over the surface of the waste" (Numbers 21:20). That is, they would recall what God had been to them, and also as it says, what God had wrought in them. The work of God is a very great matter with Him. He indicates that He takes it on piece by piece, in the first chapter of Genesis, pronouncing on every day's work. And we may be sure, dear brethren, that it is not written in regard of the physical creation alone, but that He alludes to His work in our souls, going on daily, bit by bit, as we might say. God works thus; He would come down to our way of teaching so as to draw us to Him, that is, to show us what He does, working graciously with us; and so, as we review our history, we say, "What hath God wrought!". It magnifies God in our eyes, and reduces us in ourselves, because we are confident that all is of God, every bit of work is of God, it is His. So that in regard of Israel and Jacob, that is, Israel viewed from the spiritual side, and Jacob from the responsible side, viewing them in both ways it is said, "What hath God wrought!". So we get a volume of praise in this last book of Psalms, ever swelling and swelling in the sense of what God is, until we reach the last psalm in which all His works praise Him, and "Let everything that hath breath praise Jah ... !". That is the great end, dear brethren.

Now you can see how the thought of the city of habitation is introduced. The dire necessity of the saints, of His people, is in view in this first Psalm of the book, the 107th -- and there is no one who honestly reviews his own history but will say 'amen' to what is said in this psalm. In dire distress and extremity we cry to the Lord and He comes in in every instance;

He never fails to come in and lift us out of our trouble when we genuinely cry to Him; and what is in mind is a volume of praise, "Oh that men would praise the Lord for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!". It says they wandered in a desert land, I suppose the allusion would be to Israel during their thirty-eight years of wandering. Wandering is not a word that properly belongs to faith; faith is definite, wandering is indefinite. For thirty-eight years or more, they wandered aimlessly, as I might say, and God followed them. Of course He took them out of Egypt, as He says here, but then how much wandering came in, and how much there is amongst the people of God today. Young people think nothing of taking positions for the mere sake of some monetary gain, with no regard for the city of habitation, with no regard for the thoughts of God. James 4:15 says, "If the Lord should so will and we should live, we will also do this or that". There is dignity in that: "if the Lord ... so will" and then if "we should live", that is another dignified thing. But it is otherwise very often and young people arrive at dire distress in this way. But "God is faithful", in His public ways with us; that is in Corinthians: He is faithful, and He finds us. You will all remember how Hagar fled from Sarah when Sarah oppressed her; but still she was her mistress, and it was the household of faith, whatever Sarah was as a mistress. She fled from Sarah, and the angel of the Lord finds her, that is the faithfulness of God, a very important thing for young people. He finds her, and she had to retrace her steps; it is through her that we first get the thought of a well, for God is very tender with His people, especially the young. However little she regarded it, still it was divine consideration for her, and she returned. She says, "Thou God seest me" (Genesis 16:13): that is, we get experience in these cases.

So here it says, "He delivered them out of their distresses, and he led them forth by a right way". Doubtless their experience had brought them to this. God allows us considerable rope in our self-will, but He knows when we have come to the end of it, and we are then amenable to be led. Think of God leading His people! The general principle is that He led them, and then follows, "that they might go". That indeed is the general principle underlying christianity, and the position of God's people here -- I come under control, I am amenable. The working out of it is seen in Romans and Corinthians: we come under divine control. These epistles are governed by the leadership of Christ; the Spirit comes into them, of course, but the leadership of Christ is a leading feature. We are led forth into a right way (it may be there are those here who have not yet come into this way) -- we become accustomed to it. Then it says, "that they might go to a city of habitation", that is, you have a definite end in view, that you might go to a city of habitation, where you find inhabitants who are not lawless. There is no difficulty in finding those who are lawless, nor a lawless city; it is an age of cities. There never has been such an age of cities as the present, but to find a city of habitation according to God, that is a great matter! It may be there are those here who have not found it -- most of us have. "Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together", not a city spreading out into suburbs where the boundaries cannot be determined, but a city compact together. In other words, it is the assembly, those that walk in that light, governed by this principle; living not only individually, as in Romans, but living in relation to others who live, in relation to those who understand city boundaries, who understand what belongs to a city, the city of God. That is the thing, dear brethren, at the present time. "That they might go to a city

of habitation"; the inhabitants are living. Romans, as I said, is the foundation, a foundational epistle in this respect, and Corinthians works out the thought of a city in its external features; there are the inhabitants. The prophets are full of the thought of inhabitants of Jerusalem. They have a distinctive character. It is for us to accustom ourselves to the thought, because the Spirit of God, in the writings of John in the last days, has opened up to us a wonderful city of habitation. There is the most perfect order; it is where the Lord God and the Lamb are; there is no distance there. How attractive that is! God's wonderful thoughtfulness for us, to open up to us what meets the most excessive desire, for God will satisfy the desire of every living thing; He will open it up for us to receive, that we may go to it. So that Romans and Corinthians help us as to what is foundational and what involves the public order; and the epistles, Colossians, Ephesians and Philippians furnish us with the inhabitants. So that you find love in Colossians, "the love which ye have towards all the saints" (chapter 1:4) -- that is the thought. You want people to love; there is love in a universal way, but love in a particular way too; that is to say, you will be loved. The Lord Jesus would say to you, 'I love you, and gave Myself for you'; you will be singled out; at the same time, 'I love the assembly and gave Myself for it'. It is the realm of love, the inhabitants are formed in love, and formed in intelligence too. This is most attractive for us, "that they might go to a city of habitation". We are to be assured that God goes to the greatest pains to lead us, so that we might "go". He loves to see us going according to intelligence. He says in Matthew 11:28, "Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest". That is the end of chapter 11; then in the beginning of chapter 12 He went on the sabbath through the corn fields, and His disciples

with Him, and they took the corn and rubbed it in their hands, and ate it. Now that is a principle we want to notice, going beyond what the Lord did, for that was what He had in mind; it was cutting across current religious sentiment and order. He intends that, and He looks to His own to pursue that way -- there is much beyond. The corn was there, and they took it and ate it, and that was exactly what He wanted; that is what underlies christianity, the way is indicated, and then the saints are to walk in it. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" (Romans 8:14). "He that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life" (John 8:12). I see the working of the Spirit of God in righteousness and life, and I want to have the light of life. The Lord has inaugurated that; what the Holy Spirit is doing here is to maintain that, and I walk in that way, in the light of life. It is a dignity set before us, and we reach the end -- the city; the city is eternal, I get to that. I begin to understand what that is, and to look for it and find it amongst the brethren, "a city of habitation".

Now in the second scripture, Psalm 77, much is said there about the way of Jehovah in the sanctuary and in the sea, and in the great waters, that which is outside the range of the natural mind. No natural mind can find that way, where the lion's whelps have not trodden; it is for faith. "Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron". That is a very beautiful thought, and very different from what we get in Psalm 107, where they "wandered ... in a desert way". I can picture to myself Israel straggling through the wilderness all those years, death all around them; it was the very opposite to this living state of things. Not that God was not with them in His mercy and grace through Moses and Aaron, but now He leads them "like a flock".

The suggestion is not of a straggling lot of sheep exposed to the wolves, but of an ordered state of things, a flock. If one had time to open up the passage in John 10 we would see the force of it, what the flock is; but all I wish to note now is Moses and Aaron have one hand, "the hand of Moses and Aaron". That is, God is doing the work, it is done in sympathy and authority, the authority and sympathy of "the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Jesus" (Hebrews 3:1). Moses is the man who tells us what to do, and he tells us with authority as supported by the power of God. "Are we stronger than he?", Paul says, "Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy?" (1 Corinthians 10:22). No, we cannot disregard His authority, maybe He will not let us, but still Aaron is there, suggestive of the vast sympathy of Christ. He can be "touched with the feeling of our infirmities" (Hebrews 4:15). He will go to any length if it be a question of infirmity, mental or physical or whatever it may be, but in no sense will He allow the will; He has got a way of dealing with that. "Are we stronger than he?", says the apostle. It is by the hand, as if it were the one idea of Moses and Aaron, the perfect combination of authority and sympathy. If we look into the epistles, especially Corinthians, we shall see that is exactly the blend. We have the apostle with authority, and the brother Aaron, Aaron is the brother, so they are led like a flock. How important that is, dear brethren, especially for the young ones in local gatherings, to move in that orderly way, not a straggling independent way which exposes us to the enemy, but as held like a flock under the hand, that blessed hand of Jesus -- for that is the suggestion in the hand of Moses and Aaron. They are perfectly combined in Christ who is "the Apostle and High Priest of our confession".

Now what links on very beautifully with that, to my mind, is the reference in Micah 6:4. Moses was

sent before the people. "I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam". I want to dwell, dear brethren, on that combination now, Moses, Aaron, and Miriam. They are sent before. What I understand is, that these three persons were set up of God and wonderfully disciplined secretly. They are not taken on in service till a considerable age, Moses perhaps eighty years of age, Aaron eighty-three, and Miriam over ninety. That is the combination that is set before us. When God brings them forward and sends them before the people, it is not a question of a public position in front of the camp. That is not the idea. It is what they were before; they were there before, and they come out into prominence and prominence is needed. It is a question for all time, dear brethren, there are those whom God disciplines secretly, and no one is of any use save as he is in that school. It was an eighty-years matter. God is very particular when it is a question of putting before the saints those who are to be models for them, those sent before. Look at this child Moses; his history from his infancy till he was eighty years is given in the book of Exodus. Then we have forty years more of his life, until he finishes in the most marvellous way in Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy is really the man -- what the man was. The book apparently was written by Moses when he was 119 years old or more; almost at the end of his life he wrote that wonderful book. It is a question of the man; that is what enters into what the Spirit of God says here; he was sent before the people. He stands before us, dear brethren, as a model. Then Aaron comes in, as I said, at eighty-three years of age, after his secret history with God. God says of him to Moses, "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother?". Who is this Aaron the Levite? A man who had great faith in God; God is going to make him honoured before the people, He is going to be sent before His people. All the secret dealings

of God with him in those years are that he may acquire a title. It is not Aaron a Levite, but Aaron the Levite, a word for every one who serves -- he is "thy brother". He is thy brother, you can trust him to do his best for you. That is what every servant ought to be, a brother to the saints. "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother?", the Lord said to Moses. And what will he do? He comes to meet you, and when he sees you he will be glad in his heart. That is what every levite is if he is truly a levite, truly a brother, he loves the saints, he lays down his life for them -- that is the principle. Of course, one would have to admit much as to these men, but I am speaking now of what God does for His people, so that they might have a trio like this before their eyes, fruits of the handiwork of God. That is what these three persons became as they are led and developed under the secret hand of God. Now they appear in the full view of Israel, Moses first, then Aaron, then Miriam.

Now this is a word for the sisters. Let us not forget that they also are to be leaders; they are to be led and they are to lead. Sisters lead in the sense of being examples. Nothing can be more important than sisterly example. How important that they should set a right example! The first epistle to Timothy speaks much of sisters; and in Titus, the elder women are to teach the young ones; they are to be before their eyes, yet they are to stand in relation to Moses and Aaron, so to speak; they are not to be independent. Miriam is not mentioned very often in Scripture; there is relatively very little mention of her; it is the fact that she was a sister of these great men that brings her into prominence. One mention of her is in the case of wrongdoing; that is a warning for sisters; she envied Moses and spake against him, a sorrowful matter! But I speak now, of what the Spirit of God has in mind in a trio like Moses, Aaron and Miriam, sent before the brethren,

before the sisters, "I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam".

Well now, the first mention we get of Miriam by name is in Exodus 15, and she had influence with the other sisters. One might say much about the prophetesses of Scripture; one has indeed spoken of them; but what is to be said about Miriam shows that she had influence with the other sisters in Israel, they followed her. It says, "Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took the tambour in her hand, and all the women went out after her with tambours and with dances" (Exodus 15:20). A very fine example as representing the sisterly side! And when I say the sisterly side, I have in mind the subjective state of the saints, that which is connected with the interests of the young and of all, what there is for God in that sense. So that you find in a house like that of Philip the evangelist four daughters that prophesied. They are brought in as Paul is journeying to Jerusalem; what an atmosphere would mark that house! It is a question of that kind of thing amongst us, dear brethren, as outstanding, for it is a question of going before. They are there before, as it were; God sent them before. So if a sister prophesies or prays, there is much said about it, and what is said about the order is intended to tax her spirituality. We shall never come to the end of that passage in 1 Corinthians 11, but it is to tax our spirituality, as to whether we are subject, as to whether we are ready to go out of the way in the disregard of natural things; otherwise the spirit of prophecy is beclouded.

Now finally David, in the last scripture, is taken from the sheep-folds, from following the ewes great with young; it is a matter of looking after the young. David is marked by that, he leads them into what is spiritual. That contemplates headship, the kind of thing that God has in mind, that He has provided for them. They are in the city of habitation; that

is marked by headship. David represents that side. Headship is very little understood, not that I am assuming that there are not those who know it, but it is very little understood by us generally; but that is what David represents. Moses hardly represents it, though he comes very near to it in Deuteronomy, for Israel is to go to the city of habitation, but it took hundreds of years for them to reach that city, and it is David who secures the city for them. It is he that had the thought of it and secured it; he took the head of Goliath to Jerusalem; he went there himself, and took the stronghold of Zion. That is to say, it is typically Christ laying hold of the hearts of the saints, of their intelligence -- that is the idea. And "David ... called it the city of David", a very great thought. We belong to the city of God, but then it is the heavenly side that we are called to, where the inhabitants are heavenly, not only risen with Christ, great thought as that is, for christianity is not merely based on the resurrection of Christ, but on Christ in heaven. Hence He is the pattern of the heavenly saints, "such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones" (1 Corinthians 15:48). How great a thought that is: the inhabitants are heavenly! Hence we are not only raised up with Christ, as Colossians 2:12 says, "raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead", it is a question of faith there, but in Ephesians 2:6 the point is, He "has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies". I love the saints, that is the idea: I would not be there without them. The Spirit of God so works in me, the saints become so much to me, that I would not be there without them! So we are raised up together, and made to sit down together "in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus". How great that thought is! Well, that is the idea of the city of habitation, and David is the head. It says that "he fed them according to the integrity of his

heart, and led them by the skilfulness of his hands": he is a type of Christ. As the apostle says, "To know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God" (Ephesians 3:19). That is what is in mind. That is what God is working for, to lead us in on those lines to a city of habitation, where the inhabitants are all heavenly. What associations, what neighbours, what persons to associate with! There is only one street mentioned in the heavenly city, showing that we are all of the same kind; there is no West-end, so to speak, nor East-end in that city! No streets for the rich and streets for the poor; no, we are all there in the dignity of firstborn ones, "the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven" (Hebrews 12:23). The word is plural, it means we are all firstborn, alluding to the Levites, so that we are inhabitants all equal in dignity and nearness to God and to Christ. We are to become accustomed to all this now in our associations; it is not to be new to us. We are brought to the assembly, to the saints viewed as heavenly; that is the companionship that God opens up to us. So that David "fed them according to the integrity of his heart, and led them by the skilfulness of his hands". It is all a question of headship.

SPEAKING

Luke 4:21,22; Luke 7:14,15; Luke 11:14; Acts 14:1,8 - 10,23

J.T. The thought is that these scriptures may show the bearing of speaking on assembly conditions and formation. Luke particularly has in mind that there should be speaking, such as he calls attention to in the Lord. It is remarked that the Lord in Nazareth "began to say to them, To-day this scripture is fulfilled in your ears. And all bore witness to him, and wondered at the words of grace which were coming out of his mouth". Luke mentions the effect of the Lord's words on His hearers, and the apostle Paul's words evidently corresponded: "they ... so spake that a great multitude of both Jews and Greeks believed". Then, the lame man "heard Paul speaking". Attention is called to that, not so much to what he said, but his speaking. Then, in the incident of the young man who was raised up, it says that he "began to speak".

J.J. Is it that the manner of the speaking would involve being in a certain spiritual state, that there is some spiritual state behind it?

J.T. Yes. As we come into the world and learn to use our vocal powers, they are apt to become damaged by the thoughts that are expressed through them. The words coming out of the Lord's mouth would indicate the perfect use of human vocal powers. Romans shows that human vocal powers are used ordinarily to express what would damage them -- the throat, the lips, the tongue. But Luke calls attention to perfect human speaking.

P.L. "The Lord Jehovah hath given me the tongue of the instructed, that I should know how to succour by a word him that is weary" (Isaiah 50:4).

J.T. That illustrates what I was thinking.

Rem. Scripture refers to the words of Samuel, that none of them fell to the ground (1 Samuel 3:19).

J.T. The gospel of Luke opens with the prohibition of speaking in a certain one because he was unbelieving, as if to indicate that speaking should be in faith, and only in faith: "I believed, therefore have I spoken" (Psalm 116:10).

P.L. So that "As apples of gold in pictures of silver, is a word spoken in season" (Proverbs 25:11).

J.T. I suppose the young man in Nain might be taken to represent youth generally in worldly environments. He sat up and began to speak, but how differently he would speak now. He made a beginning. The Lord began, it says in chapter 4. Then, in chapter 11 which deals with assembly furnishings, we have a man who had a dumb demon, and the Lord cast the demon out, and "the demon being gone out, the dumb man spoke".

J.J. Do you think the speaking should be according to the light of the moment?

J.T. Well, I was thinking first of all of the organs, whether we can frame to speak.

J.J. In connection with Zacharias there was light given for the moment, but he did not take it in, and therefore could not speak. Would that have any bearing on it?

J.T. Yes, he was prohibited from speaking, rendered dumb for a season, in that he was not in faith. But what one would like to see made clear is the formation for speaking in the assembly, so that the young may learn to frame, as it says in Judges, to speak and to pronounce spiritually.

Rem. It is not a matter of the number of words you speak, because we read of five words in the assembly.

J.T. The point is to begin. The brethren will soon take notice if one begins according to the Model, for Luke gives us the Model in the Lord.

J.H.M. It says too, "For of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" (Matthew 12:34). That is where the origin of things is, and if there is abundance there will be speaking.

Ques. What had you in mind in specifying the organs -- the throat, the lips and the tongue?

J.T. The powers that God has given in vocal operations, because I believe in the young they are deformed by use in the conveyance of wrong thoughts, thoughts that were never intended to pass through them at all.

Ques. Has the mind in that way to do with the speaking -- the thoughts of the mind?

J.T. The mind is the dominant thought in the man. Romans and Corinthians both bring out that the mind is the dominant faculty. There is the individual: "I myself"; that is, one arrives at consciousness in responsibility to God in Romans, and says, "I myself", and then he says, "with the mind serve God's law" (chapter 7:25). The mind is dominant. In 1 Corinthians 2:16 "we have the mind of Christ" is the same idea, the thinking faculty which is to dominate. Well, if that be renewed and it be the mind of Christ, then the thoughts are formed and conveyed through the organs according to God.

Ques. Would Isaiah 6 show the order, first the cleansing of the lips and then the anointing?

J.T. That is good; the thinking is applied through the lips.

Ques. What you said reminded me of Mordecai; he sought the welfare of his people, and spoke peace to all his seed (Esther 10:3). Is that a fitting end for a saint?

J.T. Just so. We get the thought in Romans that a believer comes into self-consciousness in relation with God. We may be self-conscious otherwise, but where there is self-consciousness in relation with God,

as morally under obligation to God, the mind becomes the great dominant faculty in the believer, and so in 1 Corinthians, "we have the mind of Christ". There may be the tongue of angels, that is, great powers of oratory, without love, whereas, over against that, there are five words with the understanding or intelligence. Those are the words that count.

C.S.S. "The sweet psalmist of Israel saith, The Spirit of Jehovah spoke by me, and his word was on my tongue" (2 Samuel 23:1,2). Would that be the result of discerning and seeking after? He says, "One thing have I asked of Jehovah, that will I seek after" (Psalm 27:4).

J.T. That would show the tongue was available. The young can come to see the need for framing to speak properly, I mean in a spiritual sense, because we are so taken up with things and convey things that are of no moral value at all, that were never intended to pass through human vocal organs. The Lord standing up in the synagogue at Nazareth conveyed the divine thought in speaking; they "wondered at the words of grace which were coming out of his mouth". And the young man in Nain who had died, sitting up and beginning to speak, is a suggestion of how young people begin to speak.

Rem. The ministry of James comes in on the practical line suggesting that having begun, the mouth should be a fountain of perpetual sweetness.

J.T. How is he to continue? Just so.

P.L. Then the perfect man weighs his words in James. It all passes the balances of the sanctuary before it is put into circulation, so that it is not base coin but on the gold standard, so to speak. You want to put into currency what will have general circulation in Zion.

J.T. Romans would develop the sense that one has to be made over again, as it were, as to the use of his members and organs; and, as soon as one

comes into self-consciousness with God, the obligation comes in, how I am going to use my tongue, my throat and my lips. The mind is to be conveyed through those organs, the renewed mind, and as in Corinthians, the mind of Christ in the christian.

J.J. Do you think Luke would help especially to bring these conditions to pass?

J.T. That is what he has in mind. He is the one that brings in the priest, and the priest's lips should keep knowledge. Of course, you might say the knowledge should be kept inwardly, which is true, that you keep your knowledge -- "Keep, by the Holy Spirit which dwells in us, the good deposit entrusted" (2 Timothy 1:14) but the lips keep the knowledge, showing it is the means of conveyance that is in mind, that in which it is kept to be conveyed. It is not merely for myself, but kept to be conveyed. That is what Luke has in mind. Zacharias was listening to the most wonderful things about himself and his wife, but he was unbelieving, and the angel said, You will be dumb until it comes to pass; there is no use in giving you that knowledge; you cannot convey it; it is not in faith in you; "I believed, therefore have I spoken"; you do not believe, and therefore you are disqualified.

P.L. Do we get the thought in "The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright" (Proverbs 15:2), and "The lips of the wise disperse knowledge" (verse 7)?

J.T. That is the idea.

J.J. Mary in chapter 10 would say, "Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight" (Psalm 19:14).

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. What bearing would the healing of the man have in Mark 7 where the Lord put His fingers into his ears before he could speak right?

J.T. That is Mark's side of this subject, and has a great bearing. It is a question of whether it should

be presented from Mark or Luke, but I think Luke is the writer that suits for the moment what is before us. But we can see how that incident helps, for it brings out, as peculiar to Mark, the depths of feeling the Lord had in these matters. He spat and touched the man's tongue, and looked up to heaven and groaned. That depth of feeling should be reflected in us. The man could not speak right; that is the point there, and the Lord felt it; the need of right speaking is so urgent.

Ques. Should we be concerned in our local meetings about what is said?

J.T. That is what I hope the Lord will lead to. You like to see the young people beginning to speak, beginning in self-consciousness with God, the mind controlling. The mind says, Now that is not right. The mind is dominant in Romans. It is a question of the law of God, a question of what God requires, and that will reduce the volume of my speaking very much, reduce it, maybe, down to five words. But then I make a beginning; that is the point.

Rem. This young man had a wonderful experience.

J.T. You would like to hear that young man. He made a start, but it does not say what he said. I suppose he heard the Lord say, "Youth, I say to thee". What words those were coming from the lips of Christ. If I have heard the Lord's voice in my soul I am prepared to speak that way. He began to speak, and there was never such speaking as that in that town before -- a young man from the dead.

P.L. Would the sitting up suggest repose and dignity?

J.T. Quite so. He did not speak lying down as he had been. He sat up, which is a sort of position of dignity in the assembly.

J.J. Do you think many are not able to speak because they have not reached the resurrection position?

J.T. Just so. He sat up at the word of Christ.

Ques. Would the speaking have reference to what had been wrought by the Lord in raising him from the dead? His speaking would be wholly different from what it had been before.

J.T. You can picture that. He was a young man in the town of Nain, which, I suppose, represents the world in its attractiveness. How he would talk about the cricket matches and the like, and current events in the world, which young people love to talk about. But now he has been into death; what can he speak of now?

Rem. In Romans 12 the renewing of the mind is set over against being conformed to the world. The mind has to be renewed, and it would be in this man's case; that is what he would suggest.

J.O.S. Would the exercise be set out in Psalm 19? In the first part of the psalm you have the divine speaking, and then the psalmist's appreciation of the law of Jehovah, and the testimony of Jehovah and His judgments and commandments, and then he says in the last verse: "Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight".

J.T. That corresponds with Romans: "So then I myself with the mind serve God's law". Well, certainly I ought to serve it in my speech.

Ques. Would you say a little more about coming into self-consciousness with God?

J.T. I think that is what Romans 7 teaches us. "I myself" he says. He was in a quagmire or a fog earlier, but now he is on a solid footing, and he says, "I myself with the mind serve God's law", in fact, "I delight in the law of God according to the inward man". Then he alludes to his mind in his consciousness with God; I serve the law of God, he says. Well, if I serve it, it works out in my speaking.

Ques. Would it be right to look first of all for speaking to God in private?

J.T. That is the idea. Romans teaches us how we come into priesthood, and priesthood very largely is a question of speaking to God, but not altogether, because the priest's lips keep knowledge for others too. I believe that God knows us; He comes down to our way of thinking and knows us by our prayers, by the way we speak to Him. He said to Moses, I know Aaron; you say you cannot speak; "I know that he can speak well" (Exodus 4:14). How did He know? God gets down to our way of thinking, and conveys that He has heard Aaron speak, and that means that he prayed, that Aaron was to be the priest and he prayed to God. I believe that is how the thing works out. God hears us speak. We are not so free with our tongues when we are speaking to God; we are careful in our words and the way we frame to speak to God.

Rem. That is the one thing that Ananias is told about Saul of Tarsus. He gets direct communication from heaven as to the communications that had been going up to heaven unknown to him: "Behold, he prayeth".

J.A.M. Is it a forceful remark that Jehovah makes to Moses in that connection, "Who gave man a mouth?" (Exodus 4:11)?

J.T. That is what is in mind. God has given all of us a mouth to use. What use are we making of it? Have I come to learn how to speak? There are people, of course, who teach oratory and that kind of thing which is of little use. That is not what we are speaking of. It is a question of learning to use the organs spiritually, and if I am to learn how to use them I must think of Christ; He is the Model. Luke presents Him in that way, and so Romans, I believe, leads us on to consciousness with God. In speaking to God, I am thinking of God, and I obey the law of

God, serve the law of God. You are to serve in newness of spirit in Romans; that is the priestly thought, and in that I am concerned about the principles that govern it, to serve the law of God, and that enters into my speaking.

C.S.S. When the Lord says to the young man, "Wake up", is it suggestive that I should have my eyes open to the greatness of the Person before I can speak and speak aright?

J.T. That is the way it works. You are impressed with the Being you are speaking to, and the more I pray, the less likely I am to be flippant in my words with others.

J.J. It gives great weight to the passage quoted from Psalm 116"I believed, therefore have I spoken", because of what the apostle was going through at that time; there was such a moral state behind it. I mean, it is one thing to speak, and there is plenty of that, but it is another thing to be the thing you are saying, for there is to be no disparity between yourself and what you are saying. I thought that was what Paul was meaning there.

J.T. Yes; the Lord was altogether what He said.

Ques. Does Psalm 39:1 apply? "I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue".

J.T. That enters into what we are saying, because you become circumspect. If my ways are wrong, my speaking will be wrong. I like to bring myself into the picture always, which is as natural as water flowing down a hill, unless I am with God; but if I am with God I bring Christ into the picture. If I take heed to my ways I judge myself.

H.M.G. "My heart is welling forth with a good matter: I say what I have composed touching the king" (Psalm 45:1).

J.T. That shows the King is in the picture, as we have been saying; you are thinking of Him. You take heed to your ways and you judge yourself.

J.J. Do you mean that all speaking that is of God would leave behind an impression of Christ on those that hear, and not an impression of yourself? That is a real test.

J.T. That is the idea. If I do not take heed to my ways, I will bring myself in somehow, and so that is the impression left on my hearers.

P.L. So, almost immediately after this young man speaks, the Lord says, "Go, bring back word to John". They were to bring Christ into the picture.

Ques. Does the thought of hearing enter very largely into the thought of speaking? The Lord says, "Take heed therefore how ye hear" (Luke 8:18).

J.T. That is the case in Mark 7. The hearing and the speaking were correlated, and the Lord's operation there brings out that the man spoke right. If I do not hear right, I do not speak right.

A.W.R. According to Romans, would the confession of Christ as Lord be the first right speaking? In chapter 3 we have speaking wrongly, and then later the confessing with the mouth Jesus as Lord.

J.T. That is the public side. No doubt, there would be speaking to God before that.

Rem. The speaking of John the baptist was not very much apparently in John 1, but great feeling entered into what he said, "Behold the Lamb of God", and then it says, "And the two disciples heard him speaking, and followed Jesus".

J.T. If we follow the incidents in Luke we get the order and the mind of the Spirit, and the Lord as the Model. Zacharias is prohibited from speaking, as much as to say, You will have to be silent. But in the interval Christ speaks. Then we have the Model, and then the young man raised from the dead who began to speak. Well, that will go on. Then, in chapter 11, we have the man with the dumb spirit, a very remarkable thing, that a person should be possessed by a dumb spirit, as if Satan is now preventing

the speaking. In chapter 1 God is preventing the speaking, that is, He is passing a judgment that you are not qualified and there are those whose mouths must be stopped, but in chapter 11, Satan is preventing the speaking. It is the time for speaking, because the Holy Spirit is available in the chapter. The Lord is seen praying in a certain place, and evidently the disciple that saw Him praying was impressed, and said, "Lord, teach us to pray", and the Lord teaches them how to pray. Then it goes on to say that the Father gives "the Holy Spirit to them that ask him". Well, if that be so, Satan says virtually, it is time to stop people from speaking. If any one that has the Holy Spirit cannot speak, it is a serious matter, because the Spirit is given that we might speak; we are to say, "Lord Jesus", by the Spirit, a most important matter, that I not only use the words, but I address the Lord, I speak to the Lord in the power of the Spirit: "Lord Jesus". If those words resound in the assembly in the power of the Spirit, we have right speaking and a right state of things inaugurated in the assembly.

J.J. Do you think the assembly is in view in all this?

J.T. There are those whose mouths the enemy would stop. Some of us are distressed that there are those who are the Lord's, no doubt, and have the Spirit, but who never open their mouths in the assembly. Well, that is the devil. "Let me hear thy voice", the Lord says (Song of Songs 2:14). The devil says, He will not hear your voice. That may be thought very lightly of, but it is serious.

A.W.R. Just previous to the verse which refers to saying, "Lord Jesus", it is said, "Ye were led away to dumb idols" (1 Corinthians 12:2).

J.T. That is remarkable. It says, "No one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit".

C.W.M. It says that the Lord gave the young man back to his mother. Would that mean that young people should begin to speak rightly at home?

J.T. The thought of the mother might be enlarged upon. The young man comes under maternal influence amongst the brethren. He began to speak. Well, let him come under right influence now.

J.J. What are we going to do with these dumb cases in the meeting, for there are several?

J.T. There are in every meeting, and the suggestion here is very serious, because Satan has put that dumb demon there. It is a dumb demon so that the person cannot speak, and it says that the Lord "was casting out a demon". That is, attention is called to the transaction, not that He cast out the demon, but that He was doing it. We have to learn how the thing is to be done.

J.J. It is a very great lesson to learn, so that we can do it.

J.T. The question is can we do it?

Ques. Would it also suggest that the Lord is still doing it?

J.T. The Lord "began to say", and here He is doing the thing, the thing is in operation.

C.S.S. It is an advance on the other. It is continued.

J.T. I think so. In the other, the man was raised from the dead, and now the difficulty is a dumb demon, and the Lord is casting him out. We want to learn how to do that.

Rem. The Lord says, "Ask and it shall be given to you" (Luke 11:9). If you are dumb in your asking, you do not get anything.

T.K. Would the two incidents in Luke 7 and 11 find a collective answer in Ephesians 5:14? "Wake up, thou that sleepest, and arise up from among the dead, and the Christ shall shine upon thee", and then, verse 19, "speaking to yourselves in psalms and

hymns and spiritual songs, singing and chanting with your heart to the Lord; giving thanks at all times for all things to him who is God". You spoke not only of being individually exercised and aroused as to these things, but that it should find some assembly expression. Would Ephesians 5, which deals with the heart of Christ in relation to the assembly, bring that in at the end? So you have Christ, and the Spirit, and the Lord, and God. One would be exercised that we might not only wake up from the individual bier, the great procession of death, but be relieved from domination, finding ourselves free amongst the brethren, speaking to the Lord and to God, and then chanting with our heart to the Lord. Having learned to speak, would we learn to sing?

J.T. You have there the generality of speaking amongst us. Instead of speaking idle things in our ordinary conversation, we speak things that are profitable and edifying, and God has part in them.

P.L. A woman "lifting up her voice out of the crowd, said to him, Blessed is the womb that has borne thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather ...". Speaking out of the crowd is not very productive. Is the speaking to be in an assembly environment if the Lord is going to take it on?

J.T. Of course, that speaking out of the crowd is Roman Catholicism; it is the thought of the 'blessed Mary'. That is not priestly at all. Speaking out of the crowd is what brings in that sort of thing; it is not the temple of God. But with the man out of whom the dumb demon was cast, the inference is that he spoke in a spiritual way, because that is the point in the passage.

J.J. Do you think the remedy lies in that very environment of chapter 11?

J.T. I think Luke 10 and 11 are the furnishing chapters for the assembly.

P.L. So the Lord starts with prayer.

J.T. That is the idea.

J.J. Just a little before, it speaks of bread and fish and an egg; would not feeding on living food of that kind be the way to get out of this dumb state?

J.T. It is God: "of him, and though him, and for him are all things" (Romans 11:36). As we come into the assembly, surely God is to be before us, and we are to speak to God in the assembly. Now Luke, as we follow up this line in the gospel, shows the first assembly meeting in pattern in chapter 24. There were those two who had been to Emmaus, whose hearts burned within them, and they invited Him into the house and He broke the bread. They saw Him and knew Him and He vanished out of their sight, then they returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven and those with them gathered together, and they were speaking. That is the idea in Luke. John's picture does not give them speaking at all, they were just there, but Luke presents the saints, as first gathered, speaking. Well, what were they saying? "The Lord is indeed risen and has appeared to Simon". That is another thing. Well, that is excellent speaking, and exactly suitable for the moment, that the Lord was risen and was gracious to appear to a poor sinner that had denied Him. How beautiful that was! calculated to permeate the whole scene with grace. The two had their mouths opened immediately, and they said that the Lord "was made known to them in the breaking of bread". How beautiful that was! another contribution, as it were, to the assembly, inaugurated from their side by suitable speaking. If they were all dumb, there would not be any of that, nor would the Lord come in either. It says, "as they were saying these things, he himself stood in their midst". John does not present that side, but Luke does. While they were speaking, He came in.

C.S.S. Do you think they said, Come into Thy garden?

J.T. Quite so. The speaking pleased the Lord.

Ques. In Luke 11 the Lord speaks of using the finger of God -- does that suggest the detail which He would employ in order to secure this speaking?

J.T. Just so.

T.K. Would those who are suffering from spiritual deformity hear something in the assembly in connection with the Supper in chapter 22, which would lead them to learn the Lord for themselves as on the way, as in chapter 24? The words of the Lord in connection with the institution of the Supper and the signalising of the bread and the cup would be familiar -- to have heard those words from the Lord's lips at that moment would be a grand thing. Would they not get help at the Supper in regard of speaking?

J.T. That is what we are at, which is what the two from Emmaus spoke of. They said that He "was made known to them in the breaking of bread".

Rem. Jeremiah said, "I cannot speak; for I am a child" (chapter 1:6), and it says, "Jehovah put forth his hand and touched my mouth" (verse 9).

P.L. But later he says that he must speak because "it was in my heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones" (chapter 20:9).

J.T. When we come to Acts 14, we have the product of all this in apostolic ministry in material for the assembly. First, the two servants so speak that a great multitude believed. The speaking was such that they saw the result, but there was one man who was noticing Paul's speaking; there was something about that speaking that struck him, and Paul, on the other hand, noticed that there was faith in the man. The interest the man evidenced in Paul's speaking was to Paul an evidence of faith, "that he had faith to be healed", and Paul spoke to him with a

loud voice. I think there is something in that in testimony, in those who minister, and the result was he sprang up on his feet. Then, later in the chapter, we have the allusion to elders. This material is to be cared for. There is that in the assembly that recognises speaking, and sees that it is cared for. So the elders are chosen in each assembly. As in the case of the mother in Luke 7, the material secured on the principle is to be cared for, and hence the elders are chosen. That is, it is a question of what would suit the apostles; they chose the elders. This material is to be cared for, that the flow of speaking should be controlled. The spirit of control is another matter. The fruit of the work of God is one thing, the spirit of control in a motherly way is another, and I believe eldership is to promote right speaking, that what is said in the assembly is correct and suitable to God.

J.J. And that there should be room for it.

J.T. There is plenty of scope for it, but under the spirit of control, so that we are not to be like the Corinthians, speaking at random, in tongues and what not. The point is the spirit of control.

P.L. Do the elders lead in that in Revelation 4 and 5 in regard of the Lamb?

J.T. In chapter 4 the elders are in the lead; they are on thrones and are crowned. The four living creatures refer to the youth amongst us; they have energy, but they need to be controlled. When the living creatures do so-and-so, the elders fall down and worship; they are satisfied; they represent the spirit of control. In chapter 5, where energy is needed, the living creatures come first, for they are the ones that have to do the heavy work, but the spirit of control is never lost sight of. In Revelation the elders are always in view.

A.W.R. The last Psalm ends up with "high sounding cymbals".

J.T. That is energy; "everything that hath breath".

J.J. It is striking that the Spirit came on the gentiles in speaking. "While Peter was yet speaking these words", it says.

P.L. Do you think the elder in John's epistle is concerned with regard to Gaius and his part in the assembly, that he should be under control, as distinct from Diotrephes and his babbling wicked words?

J.T. I am sure that is important. There should not be loose independent speaking amongst us. The young man began to speak and was delivered to his mother; his mother would regulate the speaking. That is the idea. So here, this lame man heard Paul speaking. The point is, not what Paul said, but how he said it, that kind of speaking. This man would be affected that way, and I believe the spirit of control brought in toward the end of the chapter is to regulate all this. Immediately, it is said, "And the priest of Jupiter who was before the city, having brought bulls and garlands to the gates, would have done sacrifice along with the crowds". Well, all that is lawless effort.

J.J. It was to bring themselves into the picture, whereas Paul brings God in.

J.T. That is right. All this is to bring out the need for eldership.

Ques. Would that be exercised largely in influence?

J.T. Well, it is. It says, "Having chosen them elders in each assembly, having prayed with fastings, they committed them to the Lord, on whom they had believed". That is how the assemblies were left in the region of Lystra. This pagan effort brought into christianity is mentioned here after this wonderful choice material in this man, the man taking notice of how the apostle is speaking; he heard him speaking. There is choice material there. Well now, Satan

would come in to overthrow all that in this effort to make the apostles gods: "The gods, having made themselves like men, are come down to us". How foreign all that is to what was going on in that man's soul; he had faith.

P.L. And would the bulls provide volume instead of quality, the incoherent roaring of the bulls of Bashan that was a grief to the Lord instead of the speaking of God's sons?

J.T. I am sure that is right, and you can see the contrast here. So it says, "But the apostles Barnabas and Paul, having heard it, rent their garments, and rushed out to the crowd, crying and saying, Men, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, preaching to you to turn from these vanities to the living God, who made the heaven, and the earth, and the sea, and all things in them; who in the past generations suffered all the nations to go in their own ways, though indeed he did not leave himself without witness, doing good, and giving to you from heaven rain and fruitful seasons, filling your hearts with food and gladness. And saying these things, they with difficulty kept the crowds from sacrificing to them". You can see the balancing word of the apostles, bringing God in to set aside this. Well now, this choice material that is represented in this man is to be cared for, The assemblies in that region were exposed to this lawless paganism that would be mixed up with christianity. How great is the need for wise, sober judgment amongst us! The man in Decapolis was sitting and clothed and in his right mind, and that man can be trusted. They chose them elders. It is not only what would suit Paul and Barnabas, but what would suit them.

Rem. That man was left as the only vocal representative of the Lord in Decapolis. The Lord sent him to "relate how great things God has done for

thee", not only to say what the Lord did, but to express the Lord's feelings in doing it.

J.T. You wonder how he could stand up in the city influence in Decapolis, but the Lord said he was to be there. But he is a balanced man, and I believe the elders here have in mind the choice material that has come about in this lame man. The enemy is present to overwhelm them with the grossest paganism, so they chose them elders in each assembly -- not here in each city, but in each assembly.

J.J. Is this one of Paul's most serious chapters? He brings in these three places in 2 Timothy 3:11: "what sufferings happened to me in Antioch, in Iconium, in Lystra"?

J.T. I suppose it was the most serious moment in his history, himself stoned and left for dead, but the brethren encircling him.

P.L. So in localities God is to have a mouthpiece in testimony in the assemblies.

J.T. What is an assembly if it cannot speak? In Acts 11 it is said that the assembly had ears.

T.K. And is it interesting to see that there is perfect response to God as the result of this? It says, "They committed them to the Lord on whom they had believed. And having passed though Pisidia ... and thence they sailed away to Antioch, whence they had been committed to the grace of God for the work which they had fulfilled". The assembly here in this place were able to open their mouths to God, to commend the servants back to Him. That must have been good speaking, speaking such as God would hear and which would support the testimony in the apostles.

J.T. The teaching of the chapter is that the speaking in the apostles corresponded to Christ, and then we have the material that accrued from it. Notice was taken of them in the material, as in Luke 4. The man heard Paul speaking, Paul on the

other hand noticing faith in the man, that it is that kind of material. Then this attack of the devil in which paganism is introduced is the danger, and hence the need for that material being protected and cared for, mothered, as you might say, because eldership is mothering.

Ques. Is the spirit of prayer and fasting introduced here to be maintained for the exercise of eldership?

J.T. Surely. The elders are to mother the youth. The Lord delivered the young man back to his mother as he began to speak; she is to regulate that speaking. And so here the elders are to look after this wonderful material illustrated in this man. So that the assemblies in these places are representative of God and right speaking.

J.J. Does that not explain Paul's great care for Timothy, who had fully followed up his doctrine? He had such a care for him.

J.T. Quite so; he was his child.

Rem. I suppose to get the value of the speaking for ourselves our hearing must be mixed with faith. There is wonderful speaking going on today, and people say they do not understand and do not follow. Is it not a matter for their own faith?

J.T. Quite so. I believe, following on the thought of speaking. Luke contemplated the need of moral qualities represented in eldership, so that the young might be under control. When they have begun to speak there should be exercise to see that they continue.

Rem. Apollos was defective in his speaking, and Aquila and Priscilla, hearing him, "unfolded to him the way of God more exactly" (Acts 18:26).

J.T. They "took him to them" first. That is a matter of brotherly care, for after all he was only a young christian. He had great vocal powers, great powers of speaking and was evidently an eloquent

man, but he needed that control, which is most important.

Rem. At first it says much of his eloquence but nothing of his contribution, but after he had passed through the hands of Aquila and Priscilla it says nothing of his eloquence but that he contributed much.

J.T. That is the thing. Having begun to speak, the great thing is to continue.

ADDITIONS

Acts 2:41 - 47; Acts 5:11 - 14; Acts 11:19 - 24

J.T. These scriptures record the conditions in the early days in which additions were made. The first additions were made to what was at Jerusalem; then additions to the Lord in chapters 5 and 11. Chapter 2 sets out the great general thought before us and chapters 5 and 11 give particular detail. In chapter 5 the discipline maintained in the verses read alludes to Ananias and Sapphira; in chapter 11 it is the liberty that marked the preaching, and then the effect of the service of Barnabas. The Jews who were scattered abroad passed through Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch preaching the word to the Jews alone; then it adds there were certain of them, Cyprians and Cyrenians, who entered into Antioch and spoke to the Greeks of the glad tidings of the Lord Jesus. As no direction from the Lord is mentioned, it implies liberty of spiritual understanding -- some confining their testimony to the Jews, others going further. Then we have also the influence of Barnabas.

I thought under those heads we might get instruction as to conditions in which we may expect additions. The first verse read calls attention to the general thought of additions without saying who added, or to what the addition was made; then the following verses cite the characteristics of the saints referred to. Then it says that certain people were added to the Lord, as if the conditions described were suitable for Him to add to. This narrative would assist us to continue the rendering of the testimony -- for we require additions as well as conditions which are suitable to God.

Ques. Does the word that they persevered in the teaching, involve there was a certain amount of

testing and steadfastness with them before the Lord would add?

J.T. The apostles' teaching was a new thing -- not customary. The current religion of Moses was right enough, in a way, but this is a new thing -- that so many persons should be found discerning in the teaching that which no religious status in Jerusalem had required -- perseverance.

Rem. They were not casual -- they all came to the meetings.

J.T. They were together, we are told, and that would mean that as opportunity offered they would be present. Together in one place -- together characteristically -- they would not fail to attend the meetings, of which there must have been a great many; this would be implied by the fact that they broke bread in houses.

Ques. Do you think their continuing in these conditions is why the numbers mount up from one hundred and twenty to three thousand, then five thousand?

J.T. Yes, conditions suitable for additions were there. If we have the conditions and testimony rendered we may look for additions. The scene in Jerusalem at this time must have been remarkable. It is well to picture what actually existed in Jerusalem. It was a new thing. As believers come into contact with what is current amongst us they find it new and it is essential that there should be the conditions confirming what is taught because people do not take to what is new merely because it is presented -- there must be conditions.

Ques. Would you say a word on what precedes this -- the acceptance of their word, then baptism, and the adding of three thousand souls? How would the acceptance of the word and the baptism bear upon what follows?

J.T. I thought the conviction by Peter's word

indicates the work of God. "When they heard this", it says in verse 37, "they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?", and Peter says, "Repent, and be baptized ...". They were baptized -- the Spirit stresses what marked them. The word affected their intelligence as well as their consciences. They said to Peter and the other apostles, "What shall we do?". What is of God is taken account of. They recognised not only the preacher but the other apostles; how they came to recognise them is not stated -- this seems to me to bring out what the work of God is.

Ques. Is confirmation that the assembly was first formed on the principle of separation conveyed when Peter says, "Save yourselves from this untoward generation"?

J.T. Yes, instead of going to an official person like the priests at Jerusalem to enquire, they enquire of Peter and the other apostles. I think that is always a test as to whether God is working if His subjects recognise what is of Him and do not turn to what is accredited in the world.

Rem. Addressing them all as brethren indicates how approachable they were.

J.T. You mean, had they gone to the palace of the high priest they could not have spoken with the same familiarity. The state of things accompanying the whole testimony seems to be noticed -- the environment is free and those who seem to have the light are accessible.

Ques. Will you say a word as to what Peter says, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"?

J.T. It conveys the position, and we must bear in mind that it is a new thing. Moses is not mentioned. The average person attending the preaching would be accustomed to Moses' teaching, but this is

a new thing presented. It is for them to do it -- Peter does not say, 'I am ready to do it for you' -- he is putting it upon them as to what is required -- a moral necessity. It says, "They that gladly received his word were baptized" -- signifying intelligence.

Ques. In speaking of additions, have you a thought in your mind as to the christians connected with the systems around, and also activities in the gospel?

J.T. I was thinking that their recognition of Peter and the other apostles is one great mark of the work of God in them. If their feelings were mixed they would have gone to well-known priests. The work of God would lead you to enquire of the person through whom the light has come, not only from the person who speaks but from the others.

Rem. In 1 John 4:6 it says, "He that knoweth God heareth us".

J.T. That confirms what we say. The apostle John specially presents that side, "They went out from us" (1 John 2:19) -- we want to understand that "us" -- the apostles represented Christ, and it was no small matter for Jewish persons to take on with this in view of what they had been connected with -- it shows it was a work of God.

Rem. Very different from the man who was blind in John 9he was taken to the Pharisees, and, as you say, they only got darkened.

J.T. There is significance in the fact that the first scripture is connected with the adherence to the apostles' teaching, the second, with Peter's discrimination and his shadow, and believers being added, and the third, with the disciples being called christians.

It is important for us to see the instinct which accompanies the work of God in His subjects. It is no small matter to take on something which is entirely new to me.

Rem. In speaking of the practical working out of these things, one is reminded that some little while ago many came amongst us, and every one of them got his impressions at the Lord's supper.

J.T. That is very important at the present time. Here there are men of Galilean dialect with nothing in the way of religious adherence to commend them, but it is the Spirit of God which puts them forward. Peter's address must have been wonderful -- yet great as the word was and also Peter, they see others besides him. No one-man affair -- that was never intended -- not like the Pope or archbishop.

Ques. In verse 32 of chapter 5, Peter says, "We are his witnesses". Would he be calling attention to the company there?

J.T. Just so. He stood up with the eleven, a group together, but there is something more than that, the converts saw that all those men could be enquired of. This is an indication at the outset that christianity was never intended to be a one-man affair. This is confirmed in Acts 16 where the jailor says, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?".

The Lord's supper is certainly not a one-man affair -- no official ministering the Supper -- "The bread which we break" -- "the cup ... which we bless".

Ques. Would personality enter into it? It is not only what is done, but what marks those who do it -- the substance they have.

J.T. Yes, these twelve must have been remarkable men, the handiwork of Christ. There was something different about them and that should mark all of us. Where people are genuine they do observe that things are different. There would be Matthew, Peter, James and so on -- there must have been a work of God to lead the subjects to discern and ask them. What works out in these subjects would be in accord with what they saw in the apostles. They were impressed with these men.

Rem. There was something unusual about them according to current religion at the time.

J.T. Yes, they were different -- they could all tell you how soul difficulties could be met.

Ques. Would one of their features be that they were in touch with the Man who had gone into heaven?

J.T. Quite so. How interesting it is when a person in soul difficulties is put in the presence of one who can tell him how they are to be met. If we recall our early days of conversion how thankful we were to meet a person who could tell us this.

Ques. Does it suggest the thought of how accessible they were?

J.T. Yes, they felt these men were accessible -- not too high for a poor sinner to go to.

Ques. Does Peter bring that in when he addresses them as "Men and brethren" in chapter 2:29?

J.T. Quite so. Your preaching should indicate that you are a man who can get down to people, as it says of the Lord when He appointed the twelve that He descended with them to a level place.

Ques. Do we do well to be sympathetic with those involved in difficulties?

J.T. Yes, the difficulties are very real. Some of us were not brought up in churches and do not perhaps realise how difficult it is for those in that system to get out of it.

Ques. Perhaps we do not get questions because we have not the ability or the readiness to answer them?

J.T. That may be -- these converts realised there were men who could answer their questions.

Rem. We are not all on the look-out for those who would ask questions.

J.T. That may be. There is the environment in the testimony which God provides in view of these contingencies. Are we ready to meet these contingencies?

It was a great day when three thousand passed through their hands. In this chapter (2) we have a general idea of the inauguration of christianity. There are gifted persons -- these are in the twelve and they are singled out by the converts, who enquire of them.

Ques. Would such speaking as you have mentioned help souls to come early to a recognition of what is authoritative as the testimony of God?

J.T. I think that is an important side of addition. Where God is working there will be a recognition of His authority.

Ques. Would you say that in the apostles here there were moral features that would attract souls? These were men of prayer and feeling.

J.T. Yes, the twelve were certainly the distinctive handiwork of Christ. Of two of them the Lord says, "I will make you fishers of men" (Matthew 4:19).

Ques. Would you say a little more in regard to the thought of authority? Is there any true material for the assembly apart from starting with the recognition of authority?

J.T. I think not. It is impossible to carry on building without material which recognises authority.

Ques. Is the authority as real today as on the day of Pentecost?

J.T. Yes, in principle. Authority remains, and is a test to any who profess to be the subjects of the work of God.

Ques. Are you giving that a local setting?

J.T. Yes, it should work out there. If young people are interested and see the procedure in the assembly, the next thing is, is there any authority here? Today that requires persons of moral weight, not merely official status.

Ques. Do you connect that with the fear that they had? You get fear in this chapter and also in chapter 5.

J.T. Yes, that is good. That is where the authority is discerned. The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God.

Rem. It was apparently a lack of it that brought in the breach in chapter 5. They laid certain things at the apostles' feet but in the spirit of deception.

J.T. Ananias and Sapphira represented features of the devil's opposition to what we have in chapter 2. I have profited by seeking to picture the position. Jerusalem was never a big city and we have to picture three thousand or five thousand persons so described. They must have met in, maybe, a hundred places on the first day of the week. What a state of things existed there! -- as described here in the verses read in chapter 2. As you walked along the streets of Jerusalem you would be bound to hear praise to God -- there were so many places where the saints were. It was a wonderful development of the work of God. Chapter 5 shows that the enemy would spoil that.

Rem. It is interesting that it says the same of the three thousand as of the one hundred and twenty -- they were all together in one place.

J.T. It does not say they were all together in one place, but together in heart. They broke bread "from house to house", which means in houses, and they were jubilant -- so that the enemy in chapter 5 would spoil that. Continuance of conditions for additions requires disciplines. Evil must not be allowed.

Ques. It would seem to indicate that there was spiritual sensitiveness with the apostle to deal with the evil.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. The authority that was seen in the apostles is supported by the Spirit.

J.T. I think that is to be noticed in both these incidents. With regard to the three thousand it says, "Many wonders and signs were done by the apostles",

and in chapter 5:11,12, it says, "Great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people". As if God kept up the authority among His people. If the authority is owned Satan will be defeated.

Ques. Is that supported then conditionally upon the maintenance of discipline, on the refusal of all evil?

J.T. Yes, the continuance of the apostles' authority is in evidence. The apostles were maintained in their authority; God supported them, as it were, honouring their faithfulness. If we carry on in this way and are faithful in the exclusion of sin God will continue to support the authority which exists.

Ques. Would chapter 5:11 suggest that the sensibilities of the saints were sharpened through discipline?

J.T. Yes, and the added statement that the apostles were supported through their signs and wonders shows that their authority is maintained in this, for it was an attack of the devil, but there is power to repel the attack of the devil not only in the power given to the apostles in signs and wonders, but also in that they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. Solomon's porch would mean that judgment is to continue. The saints are so impressed with this exercise of discipline that they are not evading it -- as much as to say, 'We are supporting this'. If sin occurs we need not be afraid to face it -- God honours nothing more than the maintenance of discipline amongst His people.

Rem. It is affecting that Peter in speaking to Ananias refers to the great fact of God dwelling in the assembly.

J.T. The Holy Spirit would mean God dwelling there. The authority of the Lord is jealously guarded. I think there is often fear to deal with sinful conditions when they arise in case we cause a breach. This

should teach us not to fear that. We may lose persons but we gain in divine favour. We are told that multitudes both of men and women were added -- multitudes of real believers added to the Lord. So that there was a recognition of the authority of the Lord in the assembly. Adding to the Lord today would mean that one recognises all the principles connected with that title.

Rem. Is not that a feature to be looked for in those who seek to walk with the saints in this path today?

J.T. You would love to see the saints in Solomon's porch. A meeting for discipline in London ought to mean that the saints in London are in it.

Ques. Does Peter represent a lead given in that direction? He moves on his own to meet the attack. Does he represent the spiritual mind in the matter?

J.T. Very good. We are obliged to investigate, but in the investigation we need spiritual discernment. Every case of discipline or breach taxes that element of discernment.

Rem. This discernment is not found with all, only those who take the lead generally.

J.T. So it is here, but it is very fine to see that all are in Solomon's porch -- the brethren are there; the meeting is not left to leaders.

Rem. You have the Spirit's answer to Jesus walking in the temple in the porch of Solomon. Was He alone then (John 10:23)?

J.T. I suppose He was. "I have other sheep ...", He says. These are all to be brought in -- on this principle there would be addition. Jesus is alone, not with the Jews.

Ques. The winter -- would that allude to all that lay before Him?

J.T. No doubt, but He stood the test. We tend to be afraid of discipline and the consequences.

Ques. Is there a link with what comes out in

chapter 3 -- the man who was walking, leaping and praising God -- he is holding Peter and John in this place (Solomon's porch).

J.T. Quite so. That they were all there is remarkable. I think that with regard to these discipline meetings the Lord would stress that 1 Corinthians 5 means that the saints were together for discipline, not for the breaking of bread, and it requires power. Paul says, "And my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ" (verse 4).

Ques. Does this suggest that the power is felt beyond the church, because even outside they would not join themselves?

J.T. Yes, it became a bulwark to the church instead of weakness. The spirit of judgment among us is safety.

Ques Would you mind saying a word in regard to Joshua dealing with Achan? Would that incident bear on your thought of discipline?

J.T. Yes, very definitely. It is stoning -- a matter for all the saints.

Ques. In regard of being added to the Lord -- does this involve a deeper transaction in the soul -- a sense of the maintenance of the holiness of the Lord?

J.T. Yes.

Rem. So that it would be good to see souls coming forward having exercise on this line.

J.T. I think so. At assembly meetings for discipline the sisters should be present.

Ques. Is there any significance in the fact that if a man and a woman have to come under this severe discipline God triumphs in adding both men and women as a result?

J.T. Yes.

Ques. In a meeting of discipline, how far should those go who give testimony? Should they give a lead to the saints in what they say: this seems to be done by Peter?

J.T. There ought to be a clear statement of the guilt -- no more is necessary. A discipline meeting should not be a deliberative one. The enemy tries to do this. Judgment should be executed without question. The facts should be stated soberly.

Ques. Does the power involve our being formed in what came in by Jesus Christ?

J.T. Quite so. The power would be there in those who are formed.

Rem. You have two things mentioned in Psalm 19:9,11 -- "The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether ... and in keeping of them there is great reward".

J.T. Yes.

Rem. The statement of facts at a discipline meeting should be of such a character as to show to every soul what should be done.

J.T. Yes, the facts corroborated by two witnesses are all that is needed.

Rem. In connection with the incident in Numbers 15 -- the man found gathering sticks on the sabbath day -- it says they that found him brought him to Moses, but all stoned him.

J.T. Yes, every person can cast a stone. If believe this chapter (Acts 5) is very important in respect of the maintenance of judgment. The saints are with the apostles in the porch.

Rem. From the middle of verse 12 there is a parenthesis: the signs and wonders are connected with healing.

J.T. The parenthesis is to fill out the position.

Rem. There would not be a single person who dissents from the judgment.

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. The exercise may commence with a few but all the saints are eventually brought into it.

J.T. Yes, that is how it works. The finding

of Saul by Barnabas confirmed the work that had been begun. He is one who, finding work to do, does it with all his might. The Lord's hand was with those who went out, and a man like Barnabas confirms the work. The saints have ears for what God is doing. If God is working we do not want to be deaf, dumb or blind; we want to be alert as to what God is doing. The saints are enquiring not only locally, but universally.

Ques. It will be noticed that some of them spoke only to the Jews but others spoke to the Greeks also. What do you see in that?

J.T. I see increasing liberty. We are all apt to be trammelled by legal thoughts. It is commendable that they were speaking to the Jews, but they were somewhat trammelled by legal thoughts. The church is alert -- another side of the position. That is an important thing for addition.

Ques. Have you any thought why this follows the persecution of Stephen?

J.T. It shows that God turns what seems to be defeat into victory. I understand in relation to Stephen's seeing the Son of man standing at the right hand of God that "standing" there means He is ready to serve. Some of us are often hampered by legal thoughts, with the best intentions, but then there are others who are not. It says in chapter 11:20, "And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus. And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord". It was as if the Lord would stress that there are those who go forward.

Ques. Would this encourage initiative of the right kind when serving the Lord?

J.T. Yes, without further word you go forward and the Lord's hand is with you.

Rem. They were in agreement with what God had done in relation to Cornelius.

J.T. Yes, that is the setting. When the spirit of liberty is at work spiritual instincts tend to illumine the position.

Rem. It is not now the apostle Peter testifying but, so to speak, the rank and file.

J.T. Yes, the ears of the assembly -- so that it says the report concerning them reached the ears of the assembly which was in Jerusalem, and they, not the apostles, but the assembly, sent out Barnabas. You have Paul's ears in chapter 9 and Peter's in chapter 10 and Ananias and Cornelius, good listeners, and now you have all that merging in a collective way. We note from the early part of the chapter that there was opposition in Jerusalem but it is allayed. In chapter 15 it is more pronounced. I think it is an encouragement to us to take the initiative when the opportunity offers and not to be hampered by legal thoughts. God honours that.

Ques. You have emphasised legal thoughts -- what have you in mind?

J.T. I could not tell you; there are so many. We are so prone to be governed by legal thoughts.

Rem. It is for us to apply what you have been saying.

J.T. Over against the legal thoughts we have Barnabas who, having seen the grace of God, rejoices and goes off to seek Saul, after exhorting them all to cleave unto the Lord. In relation to Barnabas you have a large crowd of people added to the Lord. Possibly the refusal of legal thoughts might bring in Timothy.

Ques. What particularly would characterise one whom the Spirit of God signifies as a good man?

J.T. We can only refer to it in the abstract: Barnabas is an ideal, a good man, full of the Holy

Spirit, a man ready to take account of anything of God and not prejudiced by the person.

Rem. Yet he went off the line.

J.T. Yes, but I think when God calls a man good there is something in him, something in the way of a model.

THE DIVINE VIEWPOINT

Genesis 12:1; Genesis 17:10,22; Genesis 19:27,28; Genesis 22:2

My remarks, dear brethren, will bear on the importance of believers reaching the divine viewpoint. There is the entrance into the holiest, which implies that we see things as God sees them; but I have in mind to speak rather of what is more initial than that, what comes earlier in the history of the average believer, and Genesis has more in mind the thought of God coming to our side to show us things. He is doing this, and is ready to do it for any who will permit it, so that we should get the divine viewpoint; not yet in regard to the fulfilment of His counsels exactly, but in regard to current normal needs of our souls. The normal history of the believer in this respect is portrayed in Abraham. He may be called Abraham the believer, that is the model believer; and what develops in his history is God coming to his side. There was no sanctuary yet, no house in a concrete way, so God comes to his side from time to time, and it is recorded, not as a mere matter of history, but that believers of all ages might understand the divine way, and how God has set Himself to serve us; taking account of the current needs of our souls so that no one should be befogged in any way as difficulties arise; God will not fail. He comes down to us, and in the tenderest way draws us aside to show us His way of viewing things, and what is in mind for each of us; indeed He has the greatest interest in every believer.

Abraham is no isolated case -- he was at the outset -- but he is the "father of us all" from the point of view of faith, and he is taught of God. Certainly it ought to be of interest to see how our father in this sense was taught of God, how God dealt with him; for in dealing with our father in this sense, He intended

that the thing should become spiritually traditional, a heritage handed down to be proved by every son and daughter of Abraham. It is not our heavenly status, but what we are here as believers. Thus we have the Lord coming down, as in Luke. God come down, as one said, '... see thy God beside thee, In a servant's form come near, Sitting, walking, talking with thee! Sinai's mount no longer fear'. (Hymn 112). That is Luke's aspect, and Luke tells us about a daughter of Abraham, and a son of Abraham: so the idea is familiar. It comes down to us as a heritage in the sense that God is interested in every one of us, from the first movement of faith in our souls, and in fact before, for we should not have faith if He had not been interested in us before.

We have then this heritage, that God drew near and turned aside to Abraham, or at least He took a position alongside him, so that Abraham might gain His point of view. In speaking of the outset of Abraham's history, I would also remark that the end in view is that the believer should be gradually led on to see things, one thing after another, until he sees Christ outside of this world, and apprehends Him as the Son of God, Christ as He is now, not exactly as in relation to eternal blessedness, although that is also in view, but in relation to the testimony here.

Chapter 22 is Christ as He is now: Abraham received Isaac from the dead, in figure, but not to take him down from the mount, not henceforth to control him; nevertheless, Abraham received him from the dead. Isaac does not come down from the mount according to the record. Abraham comes down to his young men, and they go to Beer-sheba, and Abraham dwells there, but it does not say Isaac dwelt there. He remains, as it were, above for faith. That position is secured by Christ typically above. I mean 'above'

in the sense of not being on the level here: 'Jerusalem above' and 'Isaac above' is Christ away from the level of this world, but still in relation to it in testimony. Therefore Rebecca comes into view immediately in the same chapter, and as Rebecca comes into view Sarah dies. God never has a void in His mind; hence in chapter 24 it is Christ and the assembly. That is the terminus, dear brethren, that I should like to lead you to; because it is most important at the moment that we should be there. It is still a time of testimony, and in the testimony the great central thought is Christ, not here on earth but on high, and the church brought to Him. Rebecca is brought to the tent, she is here, as it were, but here as of heaven. You will see that that is the great end to reach now; and God comes down alongside of us as believers to lead us on from step to step, pointing out this and that, that we might learn His way and have His outlook.

Now the first thing is that in Mesopotamia God appears to Abraham and tells him that there is something else to show him. He is to go out of his country and kindred and his father's house, which would be something very hard, a great tax on natural feelings to be told to move thus. But it is "to the land that I will shew thee". It is a matter of trust so far; and I may say here, dear brethren, that Genesis does not give us such a rich account of the land as we get later; nor even do the twelve spies sent up from Kadesh give us as good an account as we get in Deuteronomy. Moses is the one who gives us that; not yet having been there. He was debarred from entrance, yet no one in the Old Testament gives such an account of the land as does Moses. He is the minister, and qualified in the power of the Spirit to give such an account of the land as no one else does. It is a question now of being instructed ministerially, and ministerial instruction implies authoritative

instruction. It is not optional, but it is the best instruction. Deuteronomy is the book that furnishes the richest descriptions of the land, and that is by the minister, by one who loves, by one who has nursed the saints forty years. He learnt to love them. The more we know the saints and have to do with them, whatever they may be or whatever their attitude, the more we love them, and the easier it is to serve them. The older one becomes in the service, the easier it is to serve; the saints become increasingly attractive. Nothing is too good for the saints, not even the best that God could provide. Moses expatiated on the land so much that God took account of it and said, as it were, 'I will show you the land'.

Genesis does not go that far; you have to take it on trust. God does not there occupy us so much with the qualities of the land, as with the thing itself. He would say, as it were, 'You must take My word that I have something for you. It is not a small matter, it is a land; it is a land of My selection, and if you are a believer, if you have understood anything of My sacrificing My Son to die for you, if you have known anything of My love for you, you must begin to trust Me that I have something for you. I have a land and I will show it to you'. I apprehend that normally the christian's heart will beat high at that!

Abraham's heart would beat, although he was slow to get into it, as all of us are spiritually. What is this that God has for us? It is certainly not a matter of progress in what this world can afford; that may be found in Mesopotamia. A good way to knowledge is on the principle of elimination. God has something for me, and He says it is a land. He is going to show it to me. It is a country; a country implies national feeling, a place that inspires affection. It is interpreted to be a heavenly country.

One can understand how Abraham would think on the way, 'What is this land? -- God has told me that

He has a land for me that He is going to show me. I long to see it'. Abraham was detained by natural things, but his father died, and he moved into this land "in which ye now dwell" (Acts 7:4). He moved into it.

Then he is found going down to Egypt. That was certainly not the land God was going to show him. But when he had gone down to Egypt and returned, God says to him, "Lift up now thine eyes". What a moment that is in a believer's history, after a vicissitude of shame and sorrow. The history of his journey to Egypt and the return is sorrowful. Lot separated from him as he came back from Egypt -- both were well off in this world's goods, but that is always a danger -- and rivalry set in, which meant separation. But God never forsakes faith, however bad the circumstances. As Lot separated from Abraham, God said, 'Lift up now thine eyes: this is the land'. That is a great day in a believer's history when God calls attention to what He has previously told him He will show him. It is the beginning of great things. Moreover God says, "Arise, walk through the land according to the length of it and according to the breadth of it". God is not ashamed of His land. Genesis does not bring out its richness. We hear nothing of its stones of iron, nor hills of brass (Deuteronomy 8:9). It is for the believer to trust what God is saying to him. You will find nothing to disprove what God has said. God calls upon us to prove it so far, to walk through the length and breadth of it.

That is the first thing. It had the effect on Abraham of delivering him from any thought of returning to Mesopotamia. Had he had a desire he might have done so, "but now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly" (Hebrews 11:16). Abraham saw that the land, just as it was, was a better land, for there is constant increase in God's land. Of course, now, it is a spiritual matter, and one of increasing richness. "But now they desire a better country", says the

writer to the Hebrews, "that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city". God comes alongside those who have faith; He understands the breathings of your heart, and He goes beyond anything you have conceived. "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him" (1 Corinthians 2:9).

Now the next thing to learn in view of this, is the utter uselessness of the flesh, a very difficult lesson. Abraham had not learnt it yet; Ishmael was testimony to that fact. The Lord says, "The flesh profits nothing" (John 6:63). I am not speaking for the moment of its wickedness, but of its utter unprofitableness, its utter uselessness in regard to the things of God. God is showing this to Abraham in chapter 17. He had come down to him in beautiful simplicity and familiarity, a touch that ravishes the heart of faith! And we are told that He went up from him; He broke off the conversation and went up. What lessons Abraham learnt as he saw all this! God came down to him to tell him among other things that the flesh is useless. He says to him, 'It is I. I want to talk to you personally, as a Person to a person'. What a wonderful conversation! He says, 'I want to make a covenant with you, and it is to be between Me and you, but I want you to understand that the flesh is utterly worthless and profitless. Disallow it at once'. This is a hard lesson; but Isaac was in view. There was another coming in, different from Ishmael, not yet there, but coming. The sign between God and Abraham was to be circumcision, which means the utter unprofitableness of the flesh. It says in Romans 4:11 that "he received the sign of circumcision as seal of the righteousness of faith which he had". It is not a sign in the heavens, like the bow in the cloud, but a sign in himself It is a question of arriving in

himself at the power to disallow the flesh. "If ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Romans 8:13). We have to definitely disallow the flesh as useless, bad, of course, but useless. It is the real power of circumcision, "the putting off of the body of the flesh" -- the whole of it -- "in the circumcision of the Christ". Some may retain the best, but the whole body of it has to be put off. That is the next point; God having spoken to Abraham in the most beautiful terms, and having made the most wonderful promises -- 'I will be in covenant with you everlastingly; but there can be no tolerance of the flesh'.

No lesson is harder to learn than this, to maintain practically in the Lord's service, and generally, the thought of having in oneself the sign of circumcision, that is, that one has the Spirit, and uses the Spirit in the disallowance of the flesh.

Then we are told, "God went up from Abraham", but He came back later. If God leaves off the conversation, He has in mind to resume it. That is one of the most interesting things -- the resumption of the conversation. The interval between the breaking off and the resumption of the conversation is to bring out the element of obedience. That is what God looks for; without it He can do nothing with you. As God left off the conversation and went up to heaven, Abraham immediately carried out what He commanded as to circumcision. Then God came back. After God has entered into conversation with you He will break it off to see what effect it has on you, and according to that effect He will come back.

This time He finds Abraham sitting in the tent door. God comes back in a confirmatory way. That is a very precious thought. There are now four, instead of two, conversing in chapter 18:2. But I want to hasten on to the thought of judgment, how God shows young people the judgment of the world.

Chapter 18 brings out the renewal of the promise as to Isaac: he is surely to come, the days are given; and the world has to go. That is the setting; but it is not done in an arbitrary way. God says, "Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do ... ?". The Lord would intimate to you that He has taken the greatest and most careful account of that world, and He would not ask you to leave it if you should not. He would say, 'I will go down and see if the world is as bad as it seems to be'; not that God does not know perfectly, but He would assure us that He knows what it is. Moreover He has given opportunity to the world to save itself. Were there ten righteous persons in it He would spare it; all this is on the intercession of one believer. You see how much a believer can do in the affairs of this world. We have far more to do with the international affairs of the world, if we understand our privileges and responsibility, than the League of Nations, or all the embassies of the world! Abraham had it in his hands, so to speak, but it was a question of what was in the world. God says, 'I am going down to see for Myself'. Abraham stands before Him and intercedes beginning with fifty, coming down to forty-five, forty, thirty, twenty and to ten, and God says, "I will not destroy it for ten's sake". But there were not ten; possibly there was only one, Lot. The Scripture says he was a righteous man. Now God goes on His way; He has been alongside Abraham, who now stands before Him in the position of a friend. How beautiful it is that God would call a believer into friendship. He would say, 'I want you in My confidence. I will tell you what I am going to do'. You will have more light about the history of the world than the greatest statesman. "Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do ... ?". He is the friend of God, and so are we friends of God. Friendship with God is a great matter; it is brought in in connection with believers.

Abraham the believer was the friend of God. Friendship with the world today, is enmity with God.

Thus the conversation went on; Abraham did not go below ten, and God went on His way. Abraham returned to his place. Everything is in perfect order in the believer's outlook. He has gone far enough with his requests and he stops. God went on His way, and that way meant destruction for the world. He is on that way now; destruction is sure. The Lord Jesus said, "Now is the judgment of this world" (John 12:31) -- that is the moral thought; the thing yet remains, but destruction is coming.

In chapter 19 Abraham returns to the place where he had been speaking to Jehovah. He would have the divine viewpoint. God is not arbitrary; Abraham sees that his solicitations could not succeed; there were not ten righteous persons in the city of Sodom; he knew that God knew better than he. He left it with God, and went to the spot where he talked with Jehovah, and he sees the smoke of the world rising up. He is at the divine viewpoint. He has no question now about the world. That is how God brings His thoughts into a believer's mind. He would get you to His viewpoint, to see that His dealings are perfectly fair; He did not destroy that city until it was clear that there was perhaps only one righteous man, and He saved him and his two daughters. The man's wife looked back and became a pillar of salt. That is the third thought that I had in mind.

The next is Isaac. I have spoken of his birth that was promised; and chapter 21 tells us that he was born and weaned, that Abraham made a great feast for him in the house, and that Ishmael mocked and was cast out. That is just the history; but I wanted to show you another thing that is very difficult for believers to see, and that is that Christ after the flesh must go, not as to His Person for He

had a perfect right to go back into heaven, but if there is to be a world for God, Christ after the flesh must die. That is what is meant in John 9, where we see the condition that Christ had taken in becoming Man: He had taken a flesh and blood condition in order that He might lay it down. It was not the final thought. A world, even with Christ in it as in flesh and blood, will not do; Christ came in to establish another world; He calls it "That world, and the resurrection" (Luke 20:35). It was in purpose, and in becoming Man, or in becoming flesh, as John 1:14 puts it -- "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" -- He had in mind to set this world aside, and in doing that, to die Himself. To heal the man in John 9 the Lord made clay from His own spittle and the earth, and anointed the man's eyes, made him worse, as you might say, and yet not worse. It is a process. He says to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam". What is to be washed? The humanity of Christ would not defile: He was holy, harmless, and undefiled even as in the flesh; "that holy thing" He ever was! Yet what represented that had to be washed. It had to be removed, meaning that Christ died, thus ending that condition. The condition taken up is laid down, and laid down for ever. He took it to lay it down, and in laying it down He established the basis of another world. That is a lesson that is very hard to learn; that the world as it is now even with Christ in it will not do for God. In John 6 they would have made Him a king. You may think if the Lord Jesus were to come in on these lines and take charge of the nations, how quickly He would change things! But He is not doing that; He has died out of it; and in view of that, He says, "Now is the judgment of this world". We have to apprehend Christ not as He was but as He is. The apostle Paul says, "Henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh.

yet now henceforth know we him no more" (2 Corinthians 5:16). We do not even know Christ now after the flesh; it is Christ in another condition. Let us take that thought in. Christ is in another world, and yet in testimony in relation to this world. That is what is in view in chapter 22. Thus you have the thought of showing.

God says, "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest". Could there be any doubt as to whom He had in His mind? The earlier part of the chapter is full of the preciousness of this person, and what he is to his father. "Get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of". It is a carefully thought out thing, and the mountain, it says, is to be shown. Abraham obeys, and takes his son, his only son whom he loves, and offers him up for a burnt-offering, and receives him from the dead, in figure. Now where is Isaac? That is what I should like to ask every young heart here. Where is Christ who has died? What is His present condition? We read of His having a "glorious body" (Philippians 3:21). In the forty days' sojourn here after His resurrection we have the spiritual body, glorious of course, but we also read of His glorious body -- what He is up there. Does it not ravish your heart? That is how the church comes into view. He is presented as a heavenly Christ to ravish the heart of the assembly. Hence Rebecca is immediately in view in the end of this chapter; it simply means yourself or myself as apprehending the thought of a risen, exalted Christ -- and that we are His body. The Holy Spirit takes us to Him. Surely you will go, if you have travelled on the line of which I have been speaking! The blessed God has shown you things, and now He shows you Christ as He is in heaven. The Holy Spirit has come down from Him.

Beer-sheba is now in view as the dwelling place of

Abraham. It means that faith says, 'Now everything is secured. I have not a doubt now. Every promise is Yea and Amen in that Person'. That is the idea in 2 Corinthians 1. So the apostle says, as they were questioning his veracity (a common thing among the saints, alas!), 'I did not say Yea, and then, Nay'. "Our word to you is not yea and nay. For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, he who has been preached by us among you (by me and Silvanus and Timotheus), did not become yea and nay, but yea is in him. For whatever promises of God there are, in him is the yea, and in him the amen, for glory to God by us" (2 Corinthians 1:18 - 20). That is Beer-sheba; that is what establishes you in that city, so to say. It is the outcome of the statement of the apostle that "God is faithful". That statement hangs upon Christ's present position in heaven as the Son of God. Everything is secure there; it leads us into an entirely new world. The church belongs to that realm, the new state of things, but it is still in testimony here.

As we follow along the line of divine showing we shall reach this terminus, and in that position we shall be effective for testimony here, and that is what God is aiming at, that Christ and the assembly should be clearly in view. So that in Revelation 22 Jesus says, "I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come". That is, as we may say, Abraham's servant and Rebecca. "The Spirit and the bride say, Come". It is Christ as He is, not as He was. It is the same Person, but it is Christ as expressing the purposes of God and the glorious condition of the assembly as His body and bride.

May God lead us on these lines. I am speaking for young christians as much as for others, that God might come down and teach us step by step, leading us on, until we reach that end, and then we shall be luminaries, shining as lights in this world.

FREEDOM

John 17:1 - 26

J.T. The remarks ending this chapter are in such a setting as to remind us of how John's ministry contemplates a complete freedom from public religious order. The narrative ending here begins with chapter 13 where John says that it was before the passover without saying how long before. Then he speaks about the supper without saying what supper. He speaks about the Lord rising from supper, as if it was outside of religious customs, so as to set us free to be engaged with what is presented. Earlier the Lord is seen in this gospel as serving before John the baptist was cast into prison, whereas in the other gospels He waited until he was cast into prison, as if observing levitical order; but John would set all that aside, relieving us of any interference from such elements. A divine Person has come in, as the Lord is viewed in this gospel. The Word became flesh. He acts of Himself and Himself precedes everything. John the baptist says, "He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me" (John 1:15). He has liberty thus to act of Himself, and determines everything. That helps us in our times, as to what He has done. The Lord has done much to set us free, so that we might be able to listen to Him and go in for what He presents to us.

J.H.B. Would the opened door which no man can shut and to which you alluded in your prayer refer to that state of freedom?

J.T. "I have set before thee an opened door" (Revelation 3:8). That is for us, not that we should assume to be Philadelphia. A door which no man can shut -- it recognises the saints, having not denied His name; He would have us for Himself.

The Spirit being here, as the Lord says in John 14, "He shall teach you all things, and will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you". The Spirit being here at the present time, we get, in what the Lord said to others in His own way, the forms and applications needed for the moment, circumstances not being exactly the same, because "difficult times shall be there", it says, and these have to be met.

E.C.R. He says, "Be of good courage: I have overcome the world".

P.B. Have you in mind that we learn this freedom in Christ Himself?

J.T. It is a question of the Lord Himself. John refers to Him as no other gospel does. What the Lord says in the end of the gospel, "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" (chapter 21:23), is a suggestion of what the ministry is intended for.

A.G. He "will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you". Would that have a wider bearing than the apostles themselves?

J.T. I think so. We have to remember it in the light of the last days. The fact that no allusion to the Lord's supper is made directly, and that there is no word as to what supper it was from which He rose up, would indicate that He is speaking in a setting by itself, ignoring as you might say, what has come about in church history, that is, feasts and days. The Lord can act at any time. That is the idea; it is before the passover. Chapter 12 says six days before, but here (chapter 13:1) it is simply "before" it. He is not regulated by the passover at all.

-- Y. Is it more regulated here by eternal life?

J.T. That enters into it, of course, but it begins by the testimony left here among us to wash one another's feet. That is not simply in view of some particular feast or some preparation for the Lord's supper; it is for having part with Him.

P.B. Has it a bearing generally or particularly in relation to the Lord's day morning meeting?

J.T. It has a general bearing. I am not thinking of days. "Ye also ought to wash one another's feet". It is in order that there might be a state of love among us. Church privileges and services cannot be held otherwise. It is the state in which they are to be held.

C.O.B. If the Lord has shown the way in liberty, He would have us to follow.

J.T. Quite so. It is a question of His example here.

J.H.B. I take it that you have been referring to the whole section, chapters 13 to 17, as having rather a special character.

J.T. That is what I was thinking of. Those chapters begin with an allusion to the passover: "before the feast of the passover". Then it says in verse 2, "And during supper" -- the thing is very informal; the passover is not regulating them.

J.H.B. Do you regard this section of the gospel as having a special bearing on the assembly in its present light?

J.T. Yes. The introduction of the section lifts us out of church festivals and customary religious observances.

Ques. Is it your thought in not being governed by religious customs that we shall be governed by what comes to light in Him?

J.T. That is it. What is He doing? Satan works too, in this section. It says, "The devil having already put it into the heart of Judas son of Simon, Iscariote, that he should deliver him up" (verse 2). Satan's activities are taken note of. Satan knows what is going on. He has been occupied with the Lord's wonderful preparation for this period. The Lord has set before us an opened door, and Satan puts it into the heart of someone as in the early days of the revival, so that almost immediately there was an

attack, showing well enough that the devil was working.

J.H.B. It is a great comfort to know that the Lord has the key of David.

J.A.P. I suppose it is important that the Judas element should not be at the Supper.

J.T. Yes, if you can keep him out. Satan knew he would be there.

J.H.B. What would be the difference in the application of these chapters to the assembly compared with that of the second part of chapter 20?

J.T. There you get the assembly in its persons, not ecclesiastically, not as a body, not as an organism, nor as an organised assembly, but just the persons that form it. Things must be carried through in certain persons: if you have the persons, things will be safe. Jesus came "where the disciples were" (John 20:19); 'assembled' (as in Authorised Version) should not be there. It is a question of the persons, and how great they are in relation to Him and the Father. The Lord coming in and out among us gives the spiritual side, not the public official side as in 1 Corinthians, where the local assembly is in mind.

H.B. What is the bearing of departing from this world to the Father?

J.T. It bears directly. He is not yet ascended; chapter 20 is as ascending, but this is preparatory to that, to show that He is in relation to this world, though He is going out of it. Current religion is for this world; it is part of this world. It is needed; governments see the need of it, but the Lord would show here that He is going up to the Father, whence He came. He came from God and He went to God.

J.H.B. And His thought is to leave something here according to these chapters in keeping with Himself.

Ques. Would the thought of testimony be in it?

J.T. First He leaves an example in the way of

love. There is a testimony that we love one another to the extent of serving one another in a most humble way. That is the first great thing we learn in this section.

A.G. Is that why the persons are so often mentioned as disciples in this section?

J.T. Quite so. "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves" (John 13:35). We learn from Him that the great thing is to have love among ourselves. I must contribute to that.

H.L.T. As the day gets weaker and darker, we grow in that which grows strong, in love.

J.T. It is the state of things that enables the Lord to carry on. In chapter 14 we see that if the Spirit is coming, there must be obedience. He says in verse 15, "If ye love me, keep my commandments". The Holy Spirit comes in in that connection.

J.A.P. How is the thought of eternal life connected with what you are saying? The Lord speaks of it in chapter 17:3. Do we enjoy it in any special way in connection with the thought of the assembly?

J.T. I think it is brought in there, as part of what is in His hands administratively. He is going to speak of something more than that. I think the bearing of it is the millennium in this section. "As thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal. And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". It is a part of His administrative position. The Father has given Him authority over all flesh. That would work out in the millennial day. Of course it has a bearing in this day; it is worked out earlier in the gospel for us in chapters 3 and 4. John 3 speaks of it being given to those who believe on the Son, and John 4 is suggestive of the Spirit as the power to enjoy it. It is brought

in here to fill out the general administrative position, but we are the subjects of His prayer as being connected with the testimony.

W.R.P. Would you say a word as to chapter 16? Chapter 14 begins with love, and goes on to obedience.

J.T. Chapter 14 finishes with "Arise let us go hence". There is a change in the position. Chapter 15 is a setting of fruitfulness for the Father, and chapter 16 is the battlefield. "These things I have spoken unto you that ye may not be offended. They shall put you out of the synagogues; but the hour is coming that every one who kills you will think to render service to God". The 16th is the battlefield, with the Spirit here in that relation. In the 15th He is here, but it is the question of fruitfulness.

W.R.P. Would you also say what is the connection between these chapters, 13 to 17?

J.T. Chapter 13 is the assembly, that we should have love among ourselves; chapter 14 is the operation of love in connection with obedience, keeping His commandments as loving Him. The 15th is the vine indicating fruitfulness to the Father; that is another position we occupy. The 16th is the battlefield, the Spirit in that connection bringing demonstration to the world of sin, and of righteousness and of judgment.

W.R.P. In all those four chapters the Lord is speaking more or less to His disciples, but in the 17th He is not speaking to them.

J.T. He is speaking to His Father there, evidently in their hearing.

-- Y. He has something in view greater than what they had before.

J.T. It is that we might know how to say, "Father", and that we might understand the new kind of love, not the love of chapter 13. Of course, that is divine in another sense, but here it is the love wherewith the Father loves. So it qualifies us for

assembly service, that we might know how to say, "Father", and that we might know the place we have in the circle of divine affection, and the kind of love that belongs to that circle, the love of the Father to the Son.

H.T. The conditions of the first four chapters in this section are necessary to chapter 17.

J.T. Quite so.

P.B. I was wondering whether the four chapters would form the "men" of chapter 17.

J.T. That is where you get the idea of the men.

Ques. Would the desires expressed concerning them, in verses 9 - 21, be in relation to their being maintained here in accordance with these four chapters?

J.T. He says, "I demand concerning them"; but when He comes to having them with Himself, He says, "I desire". The demand shows the urgency with regard to our position here, not demanding that we should be taken out of the world. The urgency is to be here in the testimony.

J.H.B. Would the last verse -- I "will make it known" -- have reference to after His resurrection?

J.T. In verse 6 He says, "I have manifested thy name". That is not quite so deep a thought as "I have made known to them thy name, and will make it known; that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them". Verse 6 is something open, but the making known here is more something known in us. It is inward, not something before your eyes.

E.C.R. Would you say a word about the difference between the covenant love of God and the love in those verses?

J.T. The covenant love is not dealt with in John properly. It is akin to the love of chapter 13, the knowledge of God in Christ and the service that is rendered, as the slave in Exodus 21. It is that kind

of love, that has made the love of God effective by dying, which works out in service. It is a perfect love; it is the way the thing affects us publicly here. The love of this chapter is more than that: it is the love of the Father to the Son, which is to be in us. It makes way for Hebrews, the Lord on our side carrying on the service of God.

J.A.P. Is not this beyond Hebrews?

J.T. Hebrews greatly assists us in this. It does not speak of us as sons, nor does it set us in relation to God as His Father and our Father. It is initial, showing how the Lord Himself carries on His service in the midst of the assembly, and how He is such a great Person, Minister of the sanctuary. It assists us as to what is in mind here; He is Minister of the sanctuary: He is in us, on our side.

H.B. "I in them".

J.T. Yes; it is on our side.

-- G. You were speaking of feet-washing having in view part with Him. It mentions that He had come out from God and was going to God. I suppose chapters 14 to 16 would have that in view, the continuation of His pathway, the pathway of the will of God.

J.T. Having come from God -- you might introduce the covenant there. He has come from God and is going back to God, but He is going to the Father too. In His prayer after saying these things He says, "Father". The point is that we might know how to say, "Father".

Ques. Does what you say indicate the importance of the covenant as leading up to this?

J.T. Yes; the covenant's perfect love would set our hearts free. John does not present that here, but only in connection with His coming from and going to God. The feet-washing sets us free. Having part with Him takes us beyond the covenant.

E.C.R. Is this the highest kind of love a creature could know, in the last verse of John 17? Do we need to understand the covenant to set us free to move forward on this line?

J.T. We were saying here this morning that in the synoptic gospels you have only a brief account of the Lord's supper. It is in Jerusalem, where there is evil all around. Then they sing a hymn, and then they move on. These communications here, especially in His prayer, belong to the mount of Olives. It is the Lord's own link with the Father. He was accustomed to go to the mount of Olives after teaching in the temple all day. They were brought outside Jerusalem to a spiritual realm. The Father's love to the Son belongs to that realm: that is Ephesians.

P.S. "Having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end". Does that contemplate right through to the end, or the end to be reached in chapter 17?

J.T. I think it is more that He loves them through in spite of opposition, whatever may arise. It is the love that never fails.

W.R.P. He was leaving them in Satan's world: He would love them with a love that would see them through.

C.O.B. He proposes in chapter 1 that the two disciples should come and see where He dwelt. In chapter 8 when others went to their own homes, He went to the mount of Olives.

J.T. He says, "Come and see". It is spiritual; He gives them no street nor number. In chapter 8, they all went to their own homes, but Jesus went to the mount of Olives. Luke tells us that at night He went to the mount of Olives (Luke 21:37). We have to bear that in mind in thinking of Matthew and Mark's version. There they went to the mount of Olives. They got the thought; it is not His leading them there: they went.

C.O.B. How would "Arise, let us go hence", come in?

J.T. That is a change. Satan, the prince of this world, comes. The Lord says, "Arise, let us go hence". I do not suppose they actually moved then. The Lord intimated the change. He goes on. We are so prone to be alarmed when the enemy comes in. In Nehemiah's day, the people were alarmed when there was an attack. The Lord says, "The ruler of the world comes". You could not have anything more alarming; but the Lord goes on to say that He is the true vine. He provides for the enemy's coming.

H.T. Do you connect that with the word 'demand'?

J.T. Yes. It is different from 'beg'. That is used in chapter 14 -- "I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter". We have great comfort in that such a One is demanding for us. This matter of Satan is important to notice. Satan will accost us; we can be sure of that. Satan always comes, even with the sons of God (Job 1:6). But provision is made; we are not to be turned aside.

J.H.B. We go on bearing fruit.

J.T. That is to be attended to. God has to have something.

J.A.P. Where you have the expression, "boldness and access in confidence by the faith of him", is that higher than what we get in Hebrews? Is it a special kind of approach in the light of sonship?

J.T. The approach in Ephesians is stated in the words, "Through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father" (chapter 2:18). That belongs to the assembly proper. Hebrews is approach "by the new and living way", which is more in the light of the covenant. I would like to render that clear. Hebrews 10 is the consummation of a long course of instruction as to the covenant: "Boldness for entering into the holy of holies by the blood of Jesus, the

new and living way which he has dedicated for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, and having a great priest over the house of God, let us approach with a true heart, in full assurance of faith, sprinkled as to our hearts from a wicked conscience, and washed as to our body with pure water" (Hebrews 10:19 - 22). The covenant leads up to that. Ephesians is on higher ground than that. It is access through Christ by one Spirit to the Father.

W.R.P. Would you not connect John 20 with that?

J.T. Yes, I should.

E.C.R. In John 17 the Lord lifts up His eyes to heaven before He says, "Father". It would indicate the Father's realm.

J.T. "These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven". In chapter 11 He lifts up His eyes "on high", but here it is heaven itself, the Father's realm.

J.T.C. We have His glory mentioned on several occasions. There is the glory which, He says, "I have given them" (verse 22) and in verse 24 it says, "that they may behold my glory". Would you give us a little help as to that?

J.T. The first verse is a general side. "Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee". That refers to His exaltation to heaven, and the giving of the Spirit, and the working out of the assembly. That is the general thought. Then there is the administration in connection with the authority of the Father's kingdom as to eternal life, and then the desire to be with the Father, in verse 5. He says, "I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it; and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was". That is in Deity. It is the greatest thought possible.

In verse 6 He comes to the men that the Father gave Him. They were intelligent. Then He went on later to say that "the glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one; I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and that thou hast loved them as thou hast loved me". Then "Father, as to those whom thou hast given me, I desire that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory which thou hast given me, for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world". So we have the glory that He shared with the Father, and the glory that the Father gives Him that He can communicate to them, and the glory that they are to behold in connection with the Father's love upon Him.

E.C.R. The glory of verse 5 is incommunicable.

J.T. I should think so.

J.H.B. We do not even expect to see that.

J.T. What we behold is in verse 24.

J.H.B. You said at the beginning you had the assembly before you. How does all this bear on that line?

J.T. Link on the first verse with the last. He lifts up His eyes and says, "Father". It is after He spoke "these words" (chapters 13 - 16), suggesting the culmination. This is what He leads us to, that we might be able to say, "Father". Then there is the love of the Father to the Son, what is proper to the assembly, not simply covenant love but the kind of love that is between the Persons themselves. I think it is a great thing to see that there is something beyond covenant love, something between the Persons themselves that we are brought into.

W.H. What is the meaning of "Righteous Father"?

J.T. That is over against the world. In this chapter, there is "Father", "Holy Father", and "Righteous Father". "Righteous Father" is over against the world, as He says, "The world has not known thee, but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me".

J.A.P. "I in them" is a matter of affection.

J.T. As in their hearts in that way, He has room to come in in service.

C.O.B. What is the setting of "Holy Father"?

J.T. Sanctification, I suppose. "Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one as we". Then He goes on to say in verse 16, "They are not of the world, as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by the truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world; and I sanctify myself for them, that they also may be sanctified by truth". It is a sanctified company.

C.O.B. Would it stand against the son of perdition? You get the world against "Righteous Father" and the son of perdition against "Holy Father".

J.T. There is not much distinction between the two thoughts. The idea in "Holy Father" is that there is to be a sanctified company to enter into the service of the assembly, in spite of conditions externally. The full result is indicated in Ephesians 3.

J.H.B. What do you refer to in Ephesians?

J.T. Glory to God "in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages" (verse 21). That is a service carried on in suitable conditions.

E.C.R. What is the difference between "sanctified by truth" -- "Thy word is truth" -- and "I sanctify myself for them"?

J.T. "Sanctify myself for them" is His present place on high. It alludes to His setting Himself apart for us.

W.R.P. Do you think the service of the assembly goes more on the line of family relationship if you bring it into Ephesians as drawing near to the Father?

J.T. Yes.

Rem. Covenant relationship would not carry us so far.

J.T. That goes on to Israel. Just another word on the question of being sanctified by truth: "Thy word is truth". It is the Father's word that comes into our souls. Then it says, "As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world; and I sanctify myself for them, that they also may be sanctified by truth". First it is "Thy word"; here it is by truth in general.

M.W. Referring to verse 24, do we understand that that privilege is open to us now, the Lord's desire that we may be with Him where He is?

J.T. I think it is future properly to be with Him where He is. It is not that we should behold the Lord, but be with Him where He is. The great place that truth has in chapter 17 should be well marked: sanctified by truth, first by the Father's word, and then by truth in relation to the position of Christ as sanctifying Himself on our account.

-- G. Would that mean that the assembly's position on earth would be in moral accord with His position on high?

J.T. That is His desire. The truth as to Christ's present place in view of the testimony here and the Spirit having come, is a great point.

E.C.R. Does it involve the present communications of the Spirit at all?

J.T. The Lord differentiates between what He says, and what the Father says.

COMMUNICATIONS FROM THE LORD

John 13:1 - 17

J.T. This scripture is perhaps more familiar to us than most. It should be read in view of its being the introduction of extended communications from the Lord on the eve of His death, and it is introductory to the service of God which was on the Lord's mind as He was about to die. His people should understand the desire of the Father, and enter into the service of God intelligently and in love to one another. One matter of importance in this chapter is the evident intent to lift the saints out of the ordinary religious settings and customs; so it has a peculiar application to this country because of the special observance of religious days and customs.

I think the Spirit made the allusion to the passover here to denote what is in view -- what the Lord was going to say or do. We do not read, "When the hour was come" here, as in Luke 22:14; it reads, "Now before the feast of the passover", without saying how long before. In chapter 12 it says, "Six days before", and in Matthew 26 "after two days". In Matthew and in the other synoptic gospels the feast of the passover has a place -- the Lord was still recognising the old economy, but not so in John. There it says, "Now before the feast of the passover"; then the supper is mentioned in John 13:2, without naming what supper it was. Verse 2 which says in the Authorised Version "Supper being ended" should read "during supper". What gave this supper such importance was that the Lord was partaking of it. No doubt it was the passover, but that is not the point; it was the supper He partook of with His own. The persons present were greater than what they partook of; this greatness was from

Him. That is, I think, how matters stood in these last days. Would that be the thought?

C.A.C. The important thing here would be the communications, would it not?

J.T. That is what I thought we might see. There are no more important communications than those in these chapters 13 to 17, leading up to the Lord's prayer in the last of the chapters in which He says, "Father". "These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father"; in this He was thinking of us; He was thinking of His immediate disciples, but also of us at this very meeting today. The Lord prayed for all who should believe on Him through their word; that makes it living and applicable to ourselves. In that prayer the Lord speaks of love, the greatest love, the love of the Father for the Son. "That the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them" (chapter 17:26). That places the saints in a wonderful setting, qualified to have part in the heavenly things, because this realm of love is of the highest order. As the Father loves the Son, that love is in us, and the Son is in us. He is in us on our side, ministering to us that kind of love.

C.A.C. In what sense is that love to be in us?

J.T. The love we shall enjoy in heaven is already in the assembly viewed as on heavenly ground. The covenant love in the Lord's supper applies to us more as here in the wilderness; the Lord's supper was instituted and eaten at Jerusalem, that is, where there is evil; the enemy's power was there; whereas after the Lord had given the emblems to them and told them what the cup meant, the bringing in of the covenant seems to set them free. They sang a hymn in Jerusalem, and then they went to the mount of Olives. I think that synchronises with chapter 17 as the spot to which the Lord always resorted while in Jerusalem. In the day time He was in the temple teaching, at night He went to the mount of Olives.

Obviously that was His retreat, where He was with His Father; the love He enjoyed there would be the Father's love. In chapter 17:26 He says, "I have made known to them thy name, and will make it known; that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them". They move to the mount of Olives; that is what they came to spiritually.

L.M. What is the import of "I in them"? After bringing before them such love as the Father's love, it is to be in them. Is that the thought?

J.T. It is John's way of supporting Hebrews 2:12, "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises". John supports that in this way. The Lord's service to us is to make known the Father's name. The Father's love is in us; hence Christ is in us in the sense of having a place in our hearts. As having that love there He is in us; He is on our side, so He is free to move in the service of God. Is that your thought?

C.A.C. That would be a very affectionate setting?

J.T. It seems to me that the understanding of this would practically help us as to assembly service as found in Ephesians. God has one great thought; we begin locally and end, in a spiritual sense, universally. That is, the assembly having that kind of love that the Father has for Christ, we are available to Him as He is in us, to conduct us in that service to His Father.

E.J.F. Will that love go on when the dispensation is past?

J.T. That is manifest. We are possessed with love that belongs to the most exalted thought of love, the Father's love to the Son.

L.M. Is it your thought that Christ being in us here in assembly character, that is the way in which the Father gets an answer?

J.T. The hymn they sang in Jerusalem is not said to have been sung by the Lord, it is not said that He

even had part in it, though no doubt He did sing it. It would be in the light of the covenant; He said much to them, especially according to Matthew, about the covenant. But when they had sung a hymn they moved to the mount of Olives. In this movement He had not specially in view our side, the mount of Olives was His own place, it was the place to which He resorted.

Ques. What is the service of God, and what is our position in regard to it?

J.T. That is what I thought we might come to in chapter 17. Chapter 13 is introductory; it is the service of Christ to relieve us of all that might hinder us taking that place. It is the last use of the water of purification in this gospel; we have it in chapters 2, 3 and 9. Chapter 9 is crucial; the washing takes us off the ground even of Christ's position as here in flesh. He was Son of God here, of course, but in resurrection He was marked off as Son of God. He laid down the condition He had taken up, never to take it up again, and He took up another condition. Chapter 9 takes us off the ground on which He was in the condition of flesh and blood. The blind man was secured by the Lord as cast out of the synagogue. The Lord says to him, "Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? And Jesus said to him, Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he. And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage" (John 9:35 - 38). That means that, in principle, he was off the ground of the world where Christ was according to flesh. What I had in mind was the fact that Christ had to die, but not on His own account, death was never imposed upon Him; it was His own act but a necessary act if we were to have part with Him. That condition had to be laid down, not only was atonement accomplished, but that condition was laid down, that He

might enter into another condition. Chapter 9 means an exit from the world, for though God was more or less complacent because Christ was in it, it had become manifest that He must terminate that condition; faith follows that. The blind man follows, he worships the Son of God on that other ground. The Lord then proceeds to speak about the flock, in view of this section.

L.M. I should like to go back for a moment to "I in them". Is that similar to Paul's prayer in Ephesians 3, that the Christ might dwell in our hearts by faith?

J.T. Christ, as the term applies to Him in Ephesians 3, is in heaven, it is by faith. The position is apprehended in our souls, Christ dwells in our souls on the principle of faith. John 17 would support that, but the element of faith is not the point there. The point is that the Lord has made the Father so known, His love is in us, and Christ is in us in consequence as the Object of our affections.

L.M. Is that something more than faith?

J.T. It is something in us by the Lord's action in making the Father known. Chapter 17:6 says, "I have manifested thy name"; the last verse of the same chapter says, "I have made known to them thy name"; that is a deeper thing, the service of Christ is of a deeper nature. I should like to know if we are following what I have spoken of as to chapter 9 -- for many say, What a wonderful time it must have been for those who were with Jesus when He was down here in the flesh. It was a wonderful time, but it was not as wonderful a time as this.

L.M. We have not laid hold of it so that we can take account of Him as Son of God?

J.T. He is in a new condition, and that describes what we shall be: "We shall be like him for we shall see him as he is", not as He was, but as He is.

E.J.F. According to Romans 1 His resurrection

was the attestation to what He was as Son of God. That was God's attestation of Him. Is that how it is stated?

J.T. That is how believers come into it. Peter had a revelation, and Paul had a revelation in regard of the Son, but what is presented in the gospel is neither Peter's revelation nor Paul's, but Christ "marked out Son of God in power, according to the spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead" (Romans 1:4). That is the public testimony that believers come into.

E.J.F. I brought this point up in a reading and it was thought that He was proved to be Son of God by the resurrection of Lazarus, and that that was what was referred to in Romans.

J.T. It is plural, "resurrection of the dead", but it is His own resurrection as much as others. His own is the greatest witness, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" (John 2:19). After He was risen from the dead the disciples understood that, and other Scriptures as well. What believers need to understand is not simply that that Person is the Son of God, but that there is power with Him. We need that power, not as an historical fact, but as it is presented in the gospels.

C.A.C. What relation has feet-washing to all this?

J.T. I thought it was an introductory service of the Lord, a most touching service, and incidentally indicating how great a necessity these chapters are if we are to have part with Him. Chapter 9 must be understood in order to understand this last application of the idea of purification, the feet-washing. It is to take us on to new ground.

C. Would you say that what you are referring to in chapter 9 is parallel to the truth of new creation?

J.T. Yes. That is how it stands in 2 Corinthians 5. The chapter helps us in regard to John 9the apostle

says, "So that we henceforth know no one according to flesh; but if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer. So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation" (2 Corinthians 5:16,17).

C.A.C. The washing all over of chapter 13 would be seen in figure in chapter 9, would it?

J.T. I think that is right.

C.A.C. I should like to be more clear as to how the feet-washing stands in relation to that in a practical way with us.

J.T. I think if the truth of chapter 9 is understood, the bearing of chapter 13 is clear. The thought of defilement is not mentioned in chapter 13, not that I would exclude it, but it is a more spiritual thought than mere washing to remove defilement. It has often been pointed out that the persons -- the disciples -- were ceremonially clean. We assume it was the Supper here, and undoubtedly it was, therefore they would be ceremonially clean. If that be so the point would be to transfer them on to new ground; what had been legally right before, was not great enough now. It says in chapter 13:3, "Jesus, knowing ... that he came out from God and was going to God"; the Lord was going out of the world and going to the Father. How did He go to God? Through death, and that death implies a change of ground; He was no longer on old ground and we are to join Him on new ground; it is not Christ here in this world, however wonderful He was, but Christ in another condition in another world. We are to apprehend Him thus, and have part with Him thus.

C.A.C. Is feet-washing a continuous service in view of the maintenance of that?

J.T. That is the moral value of it for us if we are to have part with Him on new ground where He is. What is He doing? What is He occupied with? Chapters 14 to 17 disclose much to us; we can

understand what we are to be engaged with. He wants us with Him and if we are to be with Him it is a necessity that we learn how to get on to new ground.

H. In doing this for each other they were to help each other?

J.T. If we are to help each other in that way, we ought to learn the importance of the water of purification in John. It has a great place in John, he tells us that it comes from the side of Christ; he speaks of it in chapters 2, 3, 9 and 13, and also in his epistle. If we are to be of service to one another we must understand these washings, the use of the water of purification in this gospel. I do not believe that many of us understand the new position -- not that I am saying that I understand it -- but I see that it is greater than what Christ was here, that is the heavenly order of things. How many of us have enquired as to the anointing of the blind man by the Lord in chapter 9? Why should the clay that the Lord made have to be washed off? That was not impure.

C.A.C. I think that throws great light upon it. The man had to be washed from that which really typified Christ after the flesh, not from something wrong in himself, nor from a defect in the eye, but from the ointment of mud put upon it.

J.T. That is what brethren ought to look into and see whether they understand. The Lord expressly says, "Neither has this man sinned nor his parents". Having said that He goes on to make ointment with clay from His own spittle. You might say it was holy, coming from the Lord; why should that have to be washed off? Every christian should understand that, and answer in his soul why that should be washed off.

C.A.C. This does not belittle the greatness of the incarnation at all.

J.T. I think the incarnation was necessary to carry out the counsels of God.

E.J.F. The condition only was changed?

J.T. The Lord did not change as to His Person, but as to the condition He took up; John tells us that He came by water and blood, that means that He had in mind to effect cleansing; the higher service of the water would be the removal of this mud that He made; it has to be understood. The man's eyes open to see a Man in another condition, yet the same Person, "Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee". It points to another condition.

T. Would the transfiguration on the mount go as far as what you are saying?

J.T. The Lord was transfigured on the mount: what does it mean? It says, "As he prayed the fashion of his countenance became different and his raiment white and effulgent" (Luke 9:29), that points to another condition, what He has entered on now. That condition is to describe ours, "As he is, so are we" (1 John 4:17).

L.M. Is it similar to what the Lord said to Mary, "Touch me not"? He wished her to get clear of the old condition and be brought into the new condition.

J.T. Not only that, but He had not then ascended to His Father. His ascension has to be noted, though it does not appear in this chapter. In chapter 20 the ascension brings out the exalted nature of the new relationship. Sonship applies to Him in incarnation as much as now. The Father's voice was, "This is my beloved Son". "The holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God" (Luke 1:35). He was the Son then, as much as now.

H. Does that include what we are now speaking of?

J.T. I think it does, "We know that the Son of God has come" includes what we are speaking of.

Ques. Is it the same thing as the second Man out of heaven?

J.T. It is more the thought of the last Adam, the last Adam is a quickening spirit. The idea of Christ's sonship links on with deity, as in incarnation the idea of sonship suggests that He is God; John brings that out. The second Man is out of heaven, that is the idea of the kind of manhood; it is not of the earth, it is of heaven. The difference between the last Adam and the second Man is, the last Adam is more on God's side, the second Man is on our side, but still the thought of sonship is carried on to our side too. Primarily the thought of sonship denotes that the Lord is on God's side, and great enough to represent God, but the thought is also carried on to our side, but not in John. In John's gospel he never calls us sons, he calls us children. Paul brings out the subject of sonship on our side, but sonship on God's side is mainly in John.

C.A.C. What you said about His being called Son of God is very important; it involves that He is a divine Person.

J.T. That is never applied to us. John makes that quite clear.

C.A.C. The Lord's sonship is unique as involving deity.

J.T. Paul takes up the application to us on the ground of revelation. "God ... was pleased to reveal his Son in me" (Galatians 1:15,16). He develops sonship as applicable to us.

E.J.F. Paul helped in that way. Was the fact that he had not known the Lord after the flesh an advantage in connection with his ministry?

J.T. God was pleased to use a man like that. I do not suppose he knew the Lord after the flesh; he was taken up after the testimony of the gospel was presented. That is what marks him; he announced Jesus as the Son of God.

L.M. Would you mind saying a little about chapter 14:20, "In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you"? Would that be consequent on feet-washing as well?

J.T. "That day" would be the Spirit's day. "I am in my Father" would mean that He was in the Father's affections, and we are in His affections. We are in Him and He is in our affections in that day; that is the present time; we know the blessedness of that now.

T. Would chapter 13 not be to remove defilement?

J.T. I remarked that I would not exclude defilement from feet-washing, but I mentioned that the disciples were ceremonially clean at that time. They were sitting with the Lord at table, and He said, as it were, 'This is not good enough, our present setting is not good enough, there is something beyond it. You need this service to enter on that'. That is the new ground that the succeeding chapters open up to us. He leaves after having said these things. Chapter 17 opens with, "These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father". I think He would lead us on to that ground that He was on in saying, "Father".

C. Would not the significant thought in feet-washing be love, He would bring us to be at home in the conditions of love?

J.T. I feel that if the Lord does it, it is final. He has left us an example to do it.

C. What I had in mind was that we think of it as a customary thing, and hence we do not see the beautiful setting of it.

J.T. Why did it not happen before they sat down? The Lord "rises from supper". It was wonderful to sit down with Jesus in chapter 12, but there is not a word about feet-washing there. Now He sits down at supper in chapter 13; what a wonderful supper it was because the Lord of glory was there! But still

that was not just what He had in mind, it does not go far enough, there was something beyond it. He rises from supper; they were already there at the table at supper.

C. Does that act on His part link on with what was said about Him?

J.T. It links with what He was about to say in the succeeding chapters; not what He had said, but what He was about to say. This links on from chapter 12; He made no provision for them before sitting down, but while supper was proceeding He did this. What had He in mind? Something different.

Ques. The Lord interrupts what they had been enjoying hitherto?

J.T. The Lord would say, 'You have had a good meeting, but there is something more'. We are too easily satisfied; our understanding is not much as to what there is, but there is something more.

Ques. Did He want them to rise with Him?

J.T. No. In view of the new dispensation coming in they had to learn that there is something greater than what they had. Let us not be satisfied with what we have got, there is something beyond this. The Lord was sitting down in His robes, then He rises from supper, and lays aside His garments, and does this, then He sits down again after having taken His garments and tells them what He has done, and adds, 'Now you are to wash one another's feet'. He corrects Peter, He said, 'If I do not wash you, you can have no part with Me'. Peter might have replied, 'I am sitting in the meeting, and have had part with Him already!'. But the Lord meant something else. In chapter 17 we read, "That the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them", that is the most exalted kind of love, but that was not said as to what they were going on with in chapter 13. There is no question about their fitness

for the place, but in the midst of the meal this question is brought in. Why? That is what often happens in the midst of our meetings, when we come together for the Lord's supper. In the middle a movement arises of something greater, something beyond us.

Ques. Would feet-washing correspond with the mount of Olives?

J.T. It would synchronise with it. The mount of Olives according to Luke and John was His retreat. In the day He was in the temple and at night He went to the mount of Olives. The spiritual meaning obviously is that that was His place alone, but He said, 'I do not want to be here alone', "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die it abideth alone" (John 12:24). The movement to the mount of Olives means that we are moving to His place as Son; feet-washing is necessary for that.

C.A.C. Would you connect all this with the service of God? I think many of us have looked at these chapters more in the light of privilege. Would you distinguish between privilege and service or would you blend them?

J.T. I should blend them. In the chapters which follow the Lord has in mind to lead us to His own place. He says, "Father", then He goes on to say, "This is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou host sent ... And now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was". Verse 3 gives us the great general position, and verse 5 brings us on to a new line. It is a wonderful thing to bring that in there; it is no question of administration, it is His own thoughts that are recorded.

C.A.C. Have you in mind that it is in service on this line that we minister to the pleasure of God the Father?

J.T. Exactly.

C.A.C. In speaking of privilege we think of what we come into, our gain and joy. If we introduce the thought of service, I understood that you had in your mind that there should be that which should minister to the divine pleasure.

J.T. That is what I thought we might see in the Lord's lifting His eyes to heaven; He looked upward to the Father and said, "Father". John does not lead us to the thought of Abba, Father, but the Lord said, "Father"; evidently that was heard; then He sets out the administrative position, He says He would like to be glorified. The next thing is, "I have manifested thy name to the men". Now He comes down to us, He says, "Holy Father", that has to do with His disciples and us; then He leads on in a most wonderful way to "Holy Father", "Righteous Father". Next He speaks about our being sanctified as He is sanctified (verse 19). He ends up with not only that He manifested the Father's name to the men, but He made it known to the end that the kind of love that He knew so well and enjoyed on the mount of Olives -- that love should be in us and He in us. When we reach that point we are ready for the service of God, He has a free hand now. He leads us to the Father; that is what you get in John 17.

Ques. Would you tell us what "part with me" is?

J.T. In this way we have been speaking of, it involves new ground. What I think is so sorrowful is that the brethren (I do not want to blame) are not following on this line, they are not attentive to what the Lord is bringing to their attention. We want to get on to new ground, the ground of the mount of Olives; that is His place, His retreat. The disciples went there, He did not lead them there, they went there. On the mount of Olives His leading begins.

E.J.F. Is the movement in faith?

J.T. Faith must be present with us. As soon as

you hear a person saying Father, or Abba, Father, in the power of the Spirit of adoption, then you are on the mount of Olives, the Holy Spirit moves there. Faith sees the position and takes the place in the power of the Spirit.

C.A.C. The one who says Abba, Father, or Father, must be equal to it, would you say?

J.T. He says it by the Holy Spirit, "a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father" (Romans 8:15).

C.A.C. It is worthily said.

J.T. Yes, you feel there is power in it. We are ready to move now, they moved to the mount of Olives. If somebody says, Abba, Father, in the Spirit of adoption, we do not want to go back to Jerusalem again, we do not want to go back where we came from. The Lord's supper was celebrated in Jerusalem, and that is where He died. The mount of Olives is another place, we want to get into that living realm in the Spirit of adoption, that leads on to the service of God.

T. Is verse 24, "Where I am they also may be with me", the thought?

J.T. That gives you warrant for taking ground with Him. It is His thought that you should be with Him; that is literally future, but it gives you warrant for taking heavenly ground. It is the Lord's mind for you, Ephesians 2 is the same thing, He "has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together". The movement to the mount of Olives leads to that -- the saints being together on heavenly ground. The Holy Spirit says, Abba, Father; that is the ground to keep on, and we should not go back to hymns addressed to the Lord in relation to the position in Jerusalem.

Ques. What is the meaning of the last clause of chapter 14, "Rise up, let us go hence"?

J.T. It means a changed position. Chapter 15 is based on the public position of fruit-bearing.

C.A.C. Would you say a word as to the difference there may be between the knowledge of the Father's name as spoken of at the end of the Lord's prayer in chapter 17, and the knowledge of the Father according to the sermon on the mount?

J.T. In the sermon on the mount it is "Our Father which art in heaven".

C.A.C. Do not many believers know something of the Father in that sense?

J.T. They do, and are content to leave it that way. It is very blessed to know He cares for us, but what we are speaking of is not simply that He is our Father in heaven, but that we are there too.

C.A.C. I thought it was important to distinguish between the two, because so many use the term Father, and even the words 'Abba, Father', but you find that they use these terms in relation to God's fatherly care over them in their circumstances down here. That is not what you had in your mind?

J.T. What I think helps is the Son's place. What was His place? The mount of Olives; He went there. You never find Him at Jerusalem at night. One said to Him, "Where abidest Thou?". He replied, "Come and see". (John 1:38,39) We have to come and see where He dwells.

C. "I have made known to them thy name, and will make it known". Is that a continuous service of Christ?

J.T. He alludes to chapter 20. It is not that there is anything more now than there was, the full thought is already out, the full revelation of the Name is out, but we are brought into it. The service of the Spirit is to maintain us in that; it may be continuous in that sense.

Ques. Would you link our coming together with the words, "I have declared unto them thy name"?

J.T. It must be borne in mind that this is something new.

H. When we come together on Lord's day morning are there not three aspects of love that engage us in divine order? The love of Christ, the love of God in the new covenant, and the Father's love?

J.T. Exactly. The love of Christ for the church, the covenant love of God for His people -- it was not made with us, it was made with the house of Israel and Judah, nevertheless we come into it -- then the Father's love wherewith He loved the Son, that is in us too. This latter is evidently the most exalted form and brings us to heavenly ground, and makes us equal to heavenly ground.

THE END AND THE BEGINNING OF THE DISPENSATION

Exodus 4:10 - 16,22,23; Malachi 3:16,17; Malachi 4:4

I have had it in mind to speak of the correspondence between the end of the dispensation of God, and the beginning of it. I think doubtless that has been before many of us in many ways, but the Lord will, I believe, help us as to it afresh, so that we may see, and expect, that the end of this great dispensation may be or will be according to the beginning, not perhaps in volume or quantity, but in quality.

The Lord in His final announcement in Revelation has this in mind, He refers to Himself as "the root and offspring of David" (Revelation 22:16). David represents what is best and most excellent, at least typically and, in a sense, in substance, so that in the announcement of Himself under that head, as the root and offspring of David, the Lord has in mind what David represents. He represents what is best and most refined in the Old Testament, and the Lord Jesus is the antitype of that; He embodies it all as the root of David; He is the Author of everything that is of God. But for the moment I am speaking of what is most refined and excellent, as we have in Philippians 1:10, that the saints "may judge of and approve the things that are more excellent". My remarks will be bound up with the thought of speaking, and with the idea of sonship. When I say speaking, I mean speaking as God has it in His mind. What is best, is bound up in speaking and in sonship. Now Luke deals with this subject peculiarly in his gospel, and indeed in the Acts as well; he has in mind to present the thought of speaking in its most excellent character. He presents the Lord, as you know, in His own town, Nazareth, standing up in the synagogue, and he calls

attention among other things to His speaking, the words of grace which were proceeding from His mouth. The passage does not involve anything final, but what was begun. The Lord presents the passage He read in that way -- "He began to say". We may notice first, His beginning; second, the manner of His speaking; third, the words coming out of His mouth. Nothing could exceed in attractiveness those words, not only the words themselves, but the words as coming out of His mouth, the words of grace. Luke takes up the thought, and John pursues it; and we find it in its most exalted character in the two men who appeared in the Mount: we are told they appeared in glory (Luke 9:31). They were called "men" first, before we have their names mentioned. They represent the heavenly family; we all belong to it, dear friends; let us take it to our hearts that we belong to the family represented in these two men. Luke says that two men appeared in glory to the disciples, it is not necessarily the glory of Jesus there, nor the glory of the Father, but they appeared in glory. These men were talking with Jesus, the most exalted Person, the greatest Person, and the Jesus that was transfigured. "The fashion of his countenance became different". It was that Jesus; there was not any change in His Person, but in His condition and in place; it is heaven, we might say. They spoke with Jesus, talked with Jesus, what men they were! But they are said to be men. "Two men ... appearing in glory". Think of belonging to the heavenly! "As is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly" (1 Corinthians 15:48). Here are two men speaking with Jesus, talking with Jesus; what are they speaking about? They are speaking of the greatest Person and the greatest thing possible, beloved brethren, that is His death; they were able to do it, and they were doing it as it should be done. Therein, beloved, they prove that

they are equal to it; as appearing in glory they are able to speak with the greatest Person about the greatest thing possible. That is how Luke presents to us the idea which the Spirit of God would keep in our minds, that we should be prepared for this great calling; that we might enter in some measure into this holy converse with Jesus and with one another as well. That is what I had in mind, that the end should be equal to the beginning. There must be the acquirement of prepared speaking; it is not only what we say but how we say it.

I took up this chapter in Exodus because it brings out and combines these two thoughts. The first is the question of speaking, and the second of sonship. Moses, as is said of him by Stephen, "was mighty in his words and deeds" (Acts 7:22) as a prince in Egypt. He would be educated and conversant with all the wisdom of the Egyptians. Doubtless he could make a good speech; he was a man who could do things and say things. This may be the case with many of us here, we may have been educated on these lines; but what I have in mind, dear brethren, is something more than this. The subjects which befitted the court of Pharaoh and this world are not subjects which would fit in heaven, so Moses had to be brought very low. He says to Jehovah, I am heavy, I cannot speak; "I am slow of speech and of a slow tongue". One has a little sympathy with him although he went so far in his self-abnegation that Jehovah got angry with him, and one does not want that! We may think it is simply a matter of a humble-minded brother, but he may by his false humility cause divine anger. We do not want to hesitate in the service of God, or excuse ourselves because we cannot speak, and remain silent all our lives. The assembly is not a place for silent people, it is a place to learn to be silent and to learn to speak. For there is a time to speak, and if we are not able to speak when it is the time for

speaking, we may arouse divine anger. That that is a matter to be avoided, I need not say. God says, "Who gave man a mouth?". It seems that God loves the thought of a mouth; He says, "Have not I, Jehovah?". One of the greatest things that God has made is man's vocal power, including his mouth. God says that He makes blind people, and seeing people; He gives men mouths, and He gives them so that they should be used, and used according to the perfect Model, even the mouth of the Son of God, the divine Person who spoke to Moses here. He is the Person who spoke in the synagogue of Nazareth, did not He show there what man's mouth is? His mouth was most sweet, there is no Model like Him, He is a model -- an example -- for us. The Holy Spirit would make our mouths like that mouth, and make our hearts like His heart, so that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth might speak.

What I want to bring to your attention is the place that this thought has with Levi. Levi refers to what is accurate, what is right, and what is according to order. Levi is not head, he does not represent headship, David does. Levi represents what is accurate; you get that in Malachi; it is very remarkable that he is brought into Malachi. You get Jacob, Edom, and Levi in Malachi; they are great features in this book. I want to show you, dear brethren, how God brings in this thought of speaking, so that it might be understood, why it is a great point with Him. He would have Moses speak, and Moses did speak, probably more than Aaron; no one is a more excellent speaker than Moses; no one had such aptitude in learning how to speak according to God; hence he is one of those who appear in glory speaking with Jesus. Were we to go over the typical books and count the number of times in which it says, "Jehovah spoke to Moses" we should be impressed. What an opportunity

to learn God gave him, and He brings him to it. "I will be with thy mouth", let us take that to heart and not be too slow in the assembly. We do not want to be forward, but we do not want to be behind. God says, "I will be with thy mouth". In Exodus 4 Moses is not equal to it, and God says, "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother?". I speak of this because it brings in Levi. God knew all about these two brothers, He knows all about brothers, whether near in the flesh, or local in our meetings, God takes special account of them, especially if they are near of age. God watches them because the enemy is watching them too. The enemy watches because he knows that two brothers may irritate each other; God knows the irritating qualities as well, but they are qualities to be overcome. God says, I know Aaron. He knew both. I suppose that Moses was the most interesting man to heaven upon earth at that time, and I suppose that Aaron was the next. Aaron was three years older than Moses; he was about eighty-three at this time, and Moses was about eighty. God was going to put these two brothers together; they had been separated. Moses had had a history. He had been in the court of Pharaoh for forty years and had been in the wilderness for forty years; we are not told where else he was, but that is enough. God knows where you have been. He watches over the history of brothers and sisters. Miriam was there too, no doubt under the guidance of mother or father; that is not told us, but God does give us a life picture and history of both Moses and Aaron. Of Aaron, God says, "I know that he can speak well". He was not a public man, but he was potentially a public man in God's eye. It is what you are in secret that God takes notice of.

What I am speaking of now particularly is speaking powers: Aaron was a man who could speak. God may have heard him in his addresses to the Jews in

their affliction in Egypt, but I do not think that God was alluding to that. I think that Aaron may have spoken to his suffering brethren, but when God said, "I know that he can speak well", He had heard it, and no doubt He had heard it in his levitical capacity for He calls him "Aaron the Levite". Aaron represents the idea of the Levite in Scripture. The history of Levi later is associated with what Aaron was in this chapter; he is "the Levite", that is the man that God brings forward. He is going to be a yoke-fellow with his younger brother, yet his younger brother is put before him in spite of Aaron speaking well. God says, "Thou shalt speak unto him, and put the words in his mouth ... and he shall speak for thee unto the people". Now I believe, dear brethren, that from this point onwards the idea of speaking is pursued unvaryingly by the Spirit of God. It appears in David in 1 Samuel 16:18; it is not so much that he spoke well, but it says that he was "skilled in speech"; that would mean that God helped him with his mouth. No one can be skilled in speech in the view of the Spirit of God save a man with whose mouth God is. Christ is in mind here and, as I said before, the thought appears in the book of Malachi where the Levite is brought forward. If you look at chapter 2:4 - 6, it says, "That my covenant might be with Levi, saith Jehovah of hosts ... The law of truth was in his mouth, and unrighteousness was not found in his lips". Then in the same chapter, verse 7, "For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and at his mouth they seek the law; for he is the messenger of Jehovah of hosts". You see there, dear brethren, how this thought is pursued, how the Levite appears in the last days of the dispensation. It says, "The law of truth was in his mouth, and unrighteousness was not found in his lips". God can revert to that as He would today. He reverts to what was, so that what was might be now. It is not impossible;

let us not assume that any of these things are impossible. In Revelation 1:8 it says, "He who is, and who was, and who is to come". What was, may be brought into the present for the simple reason that the Spirit of God remains here. In John 14 the Lord tells His disciples of the coming of the Comforter: in verse 26 He says, "But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you". The Spirit is here, dear brethren; He is the guarantee, if we seek it, for the bringing forward of what "was".

"The law of truth was in his mouth, and unrighteousness was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and uprightness, and he turned many from iniquity. For the priest's lips should keep knowledge". I desire that this should be particularly before us, to show that God is pursuing the same line from the days of Aaron the Levite. God had the thought and He brought it out before Aaron; He anticipated Exodus. It is very interesting to look at Genesis comparatively with Exodus; Genesis is a free time, and represents a free state of things, in which the work of God shows itself. It is capable of showing itself and giving an account of itself. You have a number of people presented in that book in regard of this subject.

First I would mention the fact that Jehovah spoke with Abraham as a man speaks with his friend; what speaking that must have been! God says to Abram, "It is I", as much as to say, I am a person, and you are a person, and I will speak to you. He proceeds to speak to him, but then it says, "He left off talking with him". How one would love to know just what God said! What the gesture might have been -- what the spiritual movement might have been! As breaking off the conversation, He went to heaven,

but He came back again and spoke and finished His word and He "went away when he had ended speaking to Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place" (Genesis 18:33).

Then again, Jehovah came to Jacob. In Genesis 28 Jehovah was in heaven and Jacob was on earth, but in chapter 35 Jacob comes back to Bethel after a long detour, and God comes to speak to him. In the assembly God comes down to us, so that we might learn what is the heavenly side. We do not go to heaven in an unsuited state but as able to take our place there. The assembly is heaven come down in a certain sense; it elevates us so that we know what the order of heaven is, and the wealth that belongs to heaven, and we move in that. That is what is involved; so Jehovah comes down and speaks with Jacob in Bethel. Jacob sets up a pillar in the place where Jehovah stood by him, speaking with him. Jacob was sensible that God was pleased with him; God's eyes are on every one of us, He is interested in us before we are converted, but how different to be sensible that God is pleased with me! That is the sense that Jacob had; so he sets up a pillar, anoints it and pours a drink-offering on it; that means that he was sensible that God was pleased with him. It is as if, speaking reverently, the affections of God were stimulated by such a man as Jacob.

Let us apply that to Christ, what a stimulation to the heart of God was Christ here: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight" (Matthew 3:17); I have found it. It does not say there, 'In whom I have found all my delight', because God had in mind that we were to be brought into that, He has found His delight in us in relation to Christ. Jacob discerned that he pleased God; and if I come into the presence of God I can know that He is pleased to see me, that He is moved by it. Think of it, that the blessed God Himself is moved by the

presence of a saint such as Jacob! That is what heaven will be. Think of Luke 15! It is a chapter of buoyancy; the shepherd rejoiced, and he called his friends and neighbours to rejoice with him; the woman rejoiced, and she called her friends and neighbours to rejoice with her; the Father says, It was meet that we should make merry and rejoice because of the return of the prodigal. That is what God is leading on to, to bring us to the sense of His pleasure in us.

Well, dear brethren, as I have said, there is ability in speaking right through Malachi; in chapter 2 as we have seen, and then in chapter 3:16 it says, "Then they that feared Jehovah spoke often one to another". Who are they? They belonged to the tribe of Levi; that is the idea. There are rebellious words all round us against God and Christ, but God gets something from the true tribe of Levi, the law of truth is in their mouths. Think of that, dear brethren, "Then they that feared Jehovah spoke often one to another"; that is what Levi was. It says of Levi in Malachi 2:5, "My covenant with him was of life and peace, and I gave them to him that he might fear". So now in these days amongst many who are rebellious there is a true people, those who fear the Lord and in whose mouth is the law of truth -- the true Levi. What are they doing? It is no question of oratory, "they spoke often one to another" -- they spoke often. How can we stay away from one another, dear brethren? I do not understand a christian who stays away from his brethren; if truly a christian with love in his heart, how does he get on, how does he breathe? Those who fear the Lord do not do that, they speak often one to another, and the Lord hearkens and hears them. The Lord listens in, so to speak, to a company of His people. Think of God turning His ear to hear! That is how God comes down to us. "Shall he who

made the ear not hear?". That is how God comes to us. He has an ear, and He notes what He hears. It has to be enjoyed in a godly and living way.

So we have the true Levi as represented in Aaron, and we have the son which Jehovah had in His mind when He sent Moses to Pharaoh to say, "Let my son go". That is what God had in His mind at the beginning, and it is in His heart now. According to Malachi they could speak well. Can you think that these dear people speaking together would speak things God could not approve of? Were we to learn with God this lesson, we should perhaps check our speaking sometimes, for He does listen. Here they spoke often one to another; we are not told what they said; we leave that with God, but God hearkened, and heard, and a book of remembrance was written before Him. You may be sure that it was good speaking. God hearkened to these dear people and a book of remembrance was made before Him, and He says, "They shall be unto me a peculiar treasure ... in the day that I prepare". Depend upon it, they were excellent, the best! Is not that a word for us? We have often dwelt on this precious passage which is so simple and applicable and appealing in our own time. Think, dear brethren, of God listening! Think of the notations made, the words used would denote excellence, "treasure", refined preciousness; all this is recorded. God graciously presents Himself as a treasurer surrounded by His jewels; we belong to those jewels.

In Malachi 3:17 we get, "I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him". You see those words in what God said to Pharaoh, "Let my son go". God had His sons in these people, they feared Him in true affection and intelligence. They spake often one to another; doubtless they went over the ground of Genesis, and Exodus, and Leviticus which in a remarkable way belongs to Levi. Think

what the Psalms would speak of to them! Like Anna they would have glimmerings of Christ, though of course she would have more than they had. There is more than a glimmering in the New Testament, and she spoke of Him "to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem" -- what a speaker she must have been!

I have one word to add, dear brethren, and that is in regard to Malachi 4:4, "Remember the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, the statutes and ordinances". In our speakings one to another we are not to forget the law of Moses. We have been speaking about Aaron, but let us never forget Moses; I am not now speaking of him as a speaker but as a lawgiver. One of the most important things in our time is the principle of law, and this bears on us universally. It is not mount Sinai here, but "Which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, the statutes and ordinances". In our speakings one to another there may be oftentimes irritability if law is brought in but a true priest always stands by the law, and he never allows the word 'non-essential' in his vocabulary in regard to what God has said. Everything that God has said is essential: "Which I commanded unto him in Horeb". How much there is in the book of Deuteronomy; the ground is gone over again, from the standpoint of Moses himself as a leader of the people. God never forgets one iota of the law that He gave His servant at Horeb. Jesus Himself says, "One jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled". "I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" (Matthew 5:17). I think this passage in Malachi is typical of 1 and 2 Corinthians; the Lord is bringing things in detail before us in these scriptures, and we should not shrink from going into these details. Let us not quibble and criticise and say these things are non-essential. This verse is

brought in because of our speaking together. The law of the house does not change, there is no development from what was set up at the beginning; that is the standard. "The law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him" (how respectfully God speaks of him) "in Horeb ... the statutes and ordinances".

That is what I had in mind, dear brethren, as showing how the dispensation is going to finish, as well as speaking particularly of what is going to happen. Let us "remember" on our side; are we going to be faithful? God will be, there is no question about that. But God must have material. Can He use me? That is the point. Am I in His hand? If He has the material, there will be a wonderful finish. The responsibility comes to each of us whether I am in His hands thus? "The law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb" is to be remembered. That is the test; we do not like it often, but God would have us love it, so as to be true levites with the law of truth in our mouth.

TABERNACLE CONDITIONS

John 14:21 - 24; Exodus 24:1 - 12; Exodus 25:8,9

These scriptures, dear brethren, speak about tabernacle conditions. That is, the conditions into which God can come complacently; not conditions in heaven, but such as are in heaven found here, conditions corresponding with the divine circumstances above.

I have selected the passage in John because it brings the thought down to one person. One person may provide such conditions; and if one person, of course five or ten persons, or however many may be in a locality. The bearing of Scripture is always on the present time, even although its primary application may be future. It has always a moral bearing, and that bearing is on the time and place of its being read. The place involves the persons in it. That is how God regards geographical positions; He regards them in relation to the persons in them. In the same sense He regards time according to the persons who lived in it. God reckons on that principle; we should not understand the chronicles of the Bible aside from that method which God has adopted. For whom? It is a question of the lives of His saints. Any given time is in His mind, in that way, and any given place. The Scriptures are calculated to affect us thus, for they always have a bearing on time and place. So what I may remark tonight will necessarily apply, if indeed it be the word of God, to this place and to this town. So John's writings, as we have often heard (and the more we hear the more we believe), refer to our time in the main. They refer, of course, also to the time in which they were written, and have always had an application, for no scripture is ever a dead letter. But there is such a thing as speciality with

God, and John represents this as much as any other -- the principle of speciality. The Lord left him somewhat obscurely, in his remarks to Peter, "If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me" (John 21:22). John was following at that time; had he not been following, the Lord would have had something else to say about it, but he was following; he represents the trustworthiness that his gospel presents to us. He is said to have lived longer than any of the apostles, and his gospel was written late in his life. This would go to show that he was trustworthy; the Lord intended him to write his gospel. His gospel has a speciality peculiar to it, which commands the respect of men who read it, and the Lord is, I believe, giving it a place at the present time. It will increase in our minds as a speciality, and not the least in this, that it brings down the greatest privileges to one person, assuming as it does that one person can provide tabernacle conditions, conditions for the divine dwelling. When I speak of the divine dwelling on earth, whether it be the tabernacle of old, or the temple, or the assembly, the divine dwelling on earth is always provisional, never final. It is as if God would say, 'Notwithstanding the power of the enemy here, I will have a place to dwell in'. That puts it on us to see that He has a place to dwell in. It is within the range of every person -- every believer -- to provide the conditions necessary for this. I have in mind, as I said, a locality, and I would remark in view of what I have to say, that we have always, where actual conditions suitable to God are in mind, the potentiality of them contemplated, otherwise we could never have them. I refer to 1 Corinthians; it was written to a company of saints addressed as "the assembly of God" in that town or city. They were young converts; we have often spoken of the Corinthians as in a low condition, and they were when the apostle wrote, but they were

young converts, perhaps of not more than eighteen months, some less. Most of them came out of the darkness of paganism in that short time. This, however, does not excuse the sorrowful conditions there, for the Son of God, as the apostle says, was preached among them in a threefold way -- by himself, Silvanus, and Timotheus. You may be sure that they had the best preaching possible, and all that accompanied that preaching -- ministering and teaching -- so there was no excuse for the conditions described in the letters. But still we have to bear in mind how young they were, and consider ourselves as to what we are relatively. It is only in this way that we can measure things aright. We should consider ourselves, consider the teaching we have had, and consider the length of our experience in the things of God, and then measure what we may think of others -- that is the thought. What formation has there been in us in the course of a year or two?

In regard to the potentiality I referred to earlier, the apostle says in 1 Corinthians 3:16, "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?". He does not say, 'You ought to be the temple of God', but "ye are". It was a poor thing that they did not know these things, but evidently they did not; but the facts were there, and the facts are what I may call potential. Another thing the apostle says is that he does not speak after the manner of men among them. The apostle also tells them that they were allowing leaven among them, he says they were worse than the gentiles, that such things as were among them were not even among the nations. They were worse than pagans; yet the apostle says, "According as ye are unleavened" (1 Corinthians 5:7), that is potential, and it is the basis of recovery, the basis of conditions for the divine dwelling. I say this for our encouragement,

dear brethren, God takes account of us potentially as well as concretely. If the concrete does not agree with the potential then there is need for rebuke, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness. John helps greatly because he carries the thought down to one person, and he has in mind that from the outset the idea should be set forth from the divine side. So he tells us that "the Word became flesh", that is to say, Jesus is presented to us as God -- as a divine Person. In the early part of chapter 1 it says, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14), or 'tabernacled' as the word is. Hence there was there some idea of tabernacle conditions; they were not made for Him; He made them Himself in coming in. "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". What an atmosphere of holiness was there prepared and encircling that holy Person; we can look at Him thus from the very outset in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Spirit in Luke guards the thought, "The holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God" (Luke 1:35). There was a substance of holiness there which nothing could touch or corrupt, a body indeed prepared. John presents Him as "the Word" -- "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" -- and in that same chapter the baptist calls attention to Him as "the Lamb of God". Certain of his disciples then followed Jesus. Jesus sees them following and says, "What seek ye?" (verse 38). He would bring out what was in their hearts, as He always does; if there is one here whose attention is called to Jesus, the Lord would probe you and ask you questions as to Himself. There is no better way of instruction than that, especially for young people. "What seek ye?". They say, "Rabbi", that is what they called Him, that was the state of their souls. He was much greater, but they used that word. You might say, That is not a word to use

when there was a greater revealed word; but they spoke according to what was in their mind. What they felt was the need of a teacher; as the evangelist carefully tells us, the word 'Rabbi' means teacher -- how much that is needed today! It is the idea of teaching generally that is in mind, the need of teaching is most urgent; I mean teaching in the sense that 'Rabbi' expresses -- Teacher or Master -- not simply such teaching as I am giving to you now, for I leave what I have to say to you, and may never say a word to any of you again perhaps -- that is not the thought of teaching in John. The thought of teaching is that the truth is engrafted, forged into the soul in power; that was the Lord's way -- that is the meaning of 'Rabbi', Teacher, Master. It is not instruction that is optional; there is too much of that, the saints being allowed to be as ignorant as they please. It is a disgrace to be ignorant when there is so much teaching; it is to our discredit to be ignorant. We should carry out the things that are presented to us so that they become useful. What good is knowledge if it is not useful? We should become active and practical. These two say, "Rabbi, where abidest thou?" They wanted to know where He abode; He says, "Come and see". That is His way, and that is what He would say to anyone who is interested in what He is doing. The Lord would say, "Come and see" -- not 'see Me teaching', but 'see Me at home in My own place'. Where this place was Scripture does not tell us, but the place is to be found; John makes it a point. How do we get these things? That is a matter of spiritual importance. "They went therefore, and saw where he abode; and they abode with him that day", and then it says, "It was about the tenth hour". This day would never be forgotten by these two brothers; they would gain much in their souls which would be for the structure of the tabernacle; they would begin to understand, by what they

saw on that day, what would be required for the divine dwelling.

So again, John tells us at the beginning of chapter 8, after the disciples went to their own homes, that Jesus went to the mount of Olives. That would confirm what Luke says, that He always did that; it was His habit. If one could but follow Him there adoringly as John presents it! No one did, no one was interested enough to do it; but oh! beloved brethren, think of it, if any one had taken it up and followed Jesus, as He wended His way to the base and then to the summit of Olivet! What happened? ... John tells us, "We have contemplated his glory", possibly he had been with Him there; there is no doubt he was in a certain garden near by, to which the Lord often resorted with His disciples. I mention this now to show how John leads us to this thought of the divine abode; it is not a place like Olivet now, but with a person or persons -- "We will come to him and make our abode with him".

I want to come back for a moment to the verses in Exodus, to show how in the types all this is supported. I would say at once that conditions for divine dwelling are only furnished by a heavenly people; and not only a heavenly people, but a people who have some insight into heaven, a matter which is spiritually possible, as these types show us.

The first thing mentioned in our chapter in Exodus is that Jehovah says to Moses, "Go up to Jehovah, thou and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel". God has a dwelling in mind; that is what the chapter shows, also the next chapter, and the next, indeed the whole main part of the book. That word is to us, dear brethren, God would say, 'Come up, come up'. Then we are told after this word, that "Moses came and told the people all the words of Jehovah". That is the second point, and it says, "All the people answered with one

voice, and said, All the words that Jehovah has said will we do!" We may say that they were foolish, and in a certain sense they were, but I was thinking that it was a necessity here to introduce the element of obedience; without that, beloved brethren, there cannot be anything for God; there could be no material for God without that. All the people joined in, and God accepted for the moment what they said for the purpose in hand. Then Moses got up early in the morning -- it was a fine moment when the people took the ground of obedience -- how God loves that! "He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me". Obedience is the fruit of love, "He that loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him". Such is the person who loves Christ, such the esteem in which He is held in heaven. A person who loves Christ keeps His commandments because he loves Him; that is the point here. Moses got up early in the morning, and built an altar under the mountain, and twelve pillars. It is as much as to say, now that obedience is proffered, God can go on, service can go on, great divine projects can go on. How great these thoughts are -- and they can apply to a single believer here; if God has only one He can go on. That is a great fact showing how valuable an obedient christian is!

Then notice the various uses Moses makes of the various offerings that are offered; half the blood is put in basons, and half is sprinkled on the altar, and the blood is sprinkled on the people as well. The book of the covenant is there, as we read in Hebrews; Moses had already written down the things after the people had undertaken to obey. It is worth while writing if there is obedience, but it is of no use if there is no obedience. The people are useless if there is no obedience. The spirit of the testimony is on the principle of faith to faith. Where does faith

come from? It comes from God, without faith there is nothing for God. Moses read the words of the covenant to the people and they again say. "All that Jehovah has said will we do, and obey!". That is the position in Exodus 24. In that position the work of God can proceed; the blood of the covenant is there in its fulness to affect our hearts, for God would have a satisfied people, not only an obedient people but a satisfied people, filled with His love. He satisfies us, He does not simply reckon upon our proper obedience, but upon the power of His love in our hearts. Love never fails in God's heart, nor even in the heart of a christian, certainly never in the heart of God. In principle it never fails, and God can rely on that.

After all this, Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and seventy men go up and see the God of Israel; that is the heavenly position. God would tell us this night in this town that if that position is to be achieved, it must be by a heavenly people and by no other. God would have us understand something of divine circumstances. So these people went up, and then they saw the God of Israel, and they ate and drank before Him -- they are called nobles up there. The record is that "on the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand". Perfect love casts out fear; there is nothing that God is not complacent with, in these circumstances. The nobles of Israel were there, and they ate and drank before Him; there is a spirit of communion up there. God is complacent, but the Mediator must be there, hence Moses has to go up higher. God says, Under these circumstances "I will give thee the tables of stone, and the law, and the commandments that I have written, for their instruction". It is under these circumstances that God undertakes to furnish all that is needed in the way of instruction. "For their instruction", typically alludes to all that has come down

to us through Christ, the great Mediator, gone far above the heavens. He has sent down the Holy Spirit, as Peter tells us in his epistle, "They ministered those things, which have now been announced to you ... by the Holy Spirit, sent from heaven" (1 Peter 1:12). It is all instruction for us; this is how it should read, "I will give thee the tables of stone, and the law, and the commandment that I have written, for their instruction". It is not 'I will write', but "that I have written" for their instruction. Are we devoid of instruction? No, beloved brethren, I am thinking of the volume of instruction today, that is the position in this section, that the people should be abundantly instructed, so that they should know what is required of them, and do what is required of them. It is said of the Lord Jesus in Acts 1:1 -- the great church book -- "all things which Jesus began both to do and to teach". The doing and the teaching must go together. The apostle Paul was taken up in due course in perfect tabernacle conditions, and John shows us how they may be found in one person who is a lover of Christ. A lover of Christ must first keep His commandments, and secondly keep His word. The commandments are in a general way negative; they mean that I have to leave all that is contrary to the divine mind in regard to the dwelling. 1 Timothy, and 1 and 2 Corinthians cover the commandments; but before we understand them we must act on 2 Timothy. If there is one who has not left conditions that God described as not according to His mind, the word I would use for you today is, "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity" (2 Timothy 2:19), that is the commandment. The positive side is, "Pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart" (2 Timothy 2:22). There are such, they do exist, the apostle supposes they do exist. Just as the Lord supposes that there

are lovers of God, so today 2 Timothy contemplates that there are persons who call on the Lord out of a pure heart; it is for you to find them. If you have not found them, you are not a seeker, for it says, "Seek, and ye shall find". If you love the Lord Jesus you will find them.

That is the first thing, that sets you free from what is contrary. 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, 1 Timothy, Titus and Hebrews teach us as to the positive side of things; that is to say, tabernacle conditions are all bound up in the words of the Lord, "If any one love me, he will keep my word". What was His word? The next thing is, My words, "He that loves me not does not keep my words". How many there are who do not keep the words of Jesus, who do not love Jesus. What are His words? They are the Father's words; such is the importance of them, that not only are they the words of Christ, but they are the Father's words. The Father spoke in them, such is the wondrous fact about the revelation -- the Father was there in Jesus. There was not one Person, but there were two Persons, that is the fullest idea; there was not one Person but two Persons so united that the Father was actually there, doing and speaking the words. The Lord says this to enhance the importance of what He was doing. He says, "They have both seen and hated both me and my Father" (John 15:24). So the Father had to do with these words; and a lover of Jesus cherishes them in his heart and keeps them. His word or words imply tabernacle conditions; the commandments of course enter into that too, but the commandments deliver us from all that is evil whilst the word brings us into what is positive or constructive. The word conveys what God has in His mind as to His dwelling, what He cherishes. It is as if He were to bring a pattern down. He says to Moses, See that the tabernacle you make is according to the pattern.

The next chapter brings out what material was secured, it refers to heavenly materials, such as are in heaven. What God reposes in there, He wants down here; the saints in the power of the Spirit provide this material. That is what the second part of Exodus means; lovers of God provide what God requires, according to the pattern of the great Mediator "ascended up above all the heavens" (Ephesians 4:10). He brings down to us by His Spirit the pattern of what is required, and also the material, what is worked out in us. So, dear brethren, the question is now, What is there here? The Lord would say to us, What have you got? That is a word to every locality, What is there in the way of conditions?