Pages 1 to 70 From 'Notes of Readings in New York and Other Ministry, 1955' (Volume 199).

THE LOVE OF THE CHRIST

Galatians 2:20; 2 Corinthians 5:14 - 16

My purpose is to speak about the love of Christ. The subject is such as to draw out our feelings, for it is said, "The Father loves the Son", John 3:35. At the Jordan the Father took occasion to speak about Him: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight", Matthew 3:17. On the mount He added, "Hear him", Matthew 17:5.

First, I wish to speak of the Lord's love for Paul. Paul is distinguished in many ways, but particularly in this that he says of the Son of God, "Who has loved me and given himself for me", Galatians 2:20. I do not recall that anyone else has said just those words. John says, in speaking of himself, that he was the disciple whom Jesus loved, but Paul says, "Who has loved me and given himself for me". But I desire to make a few remarks as to the context in which this remark occurs. The first and second chapters of this epistle to the Galatians are particularly in mind. Now, in saying this about himself, Paul works up to it, as if the thought grew in his mind as he reviewed events. In this epistle, the apostle is seen in relation to certain persons and circumstances which gave rise to certain thoughts about persons, some of whom were conspicuous. But in speaking of their conspicuousness he also brings in what he was; what marked him in those circumstances, and he gives some of the facts of his conversion. Now, in having to do with persons who are conspicuous we may be challenged as to the state of our minds. Naturally, we would be disposed to be conspicuous if there was any good reason for it. He had to do with the greatest persons on earth and the greatest in the mind of heaven. He recounts what happened at a certain time in Jerusalem and mentions

certain facts. Paul was there, and Barnabas, and Peter, and James, and John and others. Paul himself speaks of what his feelings were, but he is going to tell us, later, that Christ loved him. He is going to tell us that as he proceeds with this letter. He says, "The Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me".

Now, as having it in mind to say that, he touches on the reasons for saying it. This is not just anybody saying this. It is Paul! And in working up to this statement he has in mind that, when he says it, it will be obvious that he was loved by the Son of God. So that the mind is taken to the scene at Jerusalem where the greatest personnel in the universe were. There were others, too, who came in surreptitiously to spy out the apostle's liberty. But these would be ministers of the devil. But there were Peter and James and John who were conspicuous as being pillars. When Paul was younger, fourteen or more years before the events we have been speaking about, he went to Arabia. He had been converted, and he says, "I went to Arabia", Galatians 1:17. Well, why did he go there? I am speaking now as to how persons who are loved of the Lord can give reasons for what they do. We may be ready to say that we are loved of the Lord, but I am just a little afraid of persons being too ready to say these things, especially if we are quoting Paul. I would challenge our hearts as to this. But why did he go to Arabia? Maybe he went there to deny the flesh. No doubt he did. But what bearing did that have on Christ's love for him? The opposite would be found in one that was not spiritual. Such a one may go to Jerusalem to see what was there. But Paul did not do that. He went to Arabia. The Lord watched him on that journey. It was a long way. The Lord watched his footsteps; doubtless he was a lone man. He had not gone to Damascus a lone man; he was a man of importance; he was a great representative of the priesthood

in Jerusalem in opposition to Christ. And he had company. But then he "went to Arabia, and again returned to Damascus", Galatians 1:17. Then after three years he went up to Jerusalem. We may have thought that he was going up to see the prominent brethren, to see the large meetings in Jerusalem. The leading men were there. But he did not go for that. He did not see any of them except Peter and James. He says that he "saw none other of the apostles, but James the brother of the Lord", Galatians 1:19. He did not go there to become acquainted with the great brethren and with the big meetings. Yet, that is just what we may be inclined to do as we have opportunity, but I would challenge our hearts as to it. Paul did not go to Jerusalem to get to big tea meetings or social affairs. This may be current among the brethren. Afternoon and evening teas may become quite social with very little about Christ in them. But Paul went up to Jerusalem to see Peter. We may like to do that too, and to see all the other great personages there. But Paul went up to see Peter, and not only to see him, but to make acquaintance with him. The young brethren need to make the acquaintance of the elder brethren; not simply to be able to say, I have seen Peter -- and James -- and John, but to make acquaintance that will advance you spiritually. Well, that is what Paul did. He was at Jerusalem for fifteen days, which would mean, very likely, that he spent two Lord's days with Peter, or, possibly, three.

Well now, in the second chapter, he says that there were those who were conspicuous. How we do love to be something! But the apostle says, "If I ... have not love, I am nothing", 1 Corinthians 13:2. We need to take that home. If we have not love we are nothing! But there were those who were conspicuous, of whom Paul says, They communicated nothing to me. But nevertheless they were something. Peter and John had said earlier, "Look on us", Acts 3:4. They had something. "What I have, this give I to thee". They had love. They told the

lame man at the Beautiful gate of the temple to look at them. But now Peter and James and John are said to be pillars, and Paul says that they "gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship", Galatians 2:9. What a beautiful picture; Peter and Paul and James and John and Barnabas -- these great men in the testimony, shaking hands together! They loved each other in the testimony.

Well now, after these things, which I have mentioned briefly, Paul tells us that when Peter came to Antioch, he withstood him to the face, because he was to be condemned. Now that is a very important feature of a person whom Christ loves, and that is what I am leading up to: a person whom Christ loves -- as to how he is worth loving. What a change had taken place! Here is Peter, the elder brother whom Paul had gone up to Jerusalem to see, and with whom he had spent fifteen delightful days. How much Peter could say to Paul, and how much Paul would value what his elder brother said to him! But now there is a change. We are all liable to change, even the most spiritual of us. Peter had become affected by party feeling. And not one of us is exempt from that. When some came from James, Peter withdrew and would not eat with the gentiles. But what is this man, whom Christ loved, going to do about Peter? Paul says, "I withstood him to the face, because he was to be condemned", Galatians 2:11. What he did shows why Christ loved him. If I say that Christ loved me, I want to show that there is some reason beyond the fact that I am a believer. Paul is telling us what he had done, and one of the important events was, that when Peter acted on party lines, and was not faithful to the truth, Paul withstood him to the face, and spoke to him about it before all.

Well, that is the point I am making, dear brethren; that if we make much of the fact that the Lord loves us, and there is little reason to be seen, we are liable to be challenged and should be challenged. Before

Paul says that the Son of God loved him, he tells us these things which show that he was worthy of being loved. I have often said that the Lord has the right to make selection. God has the right to set His love upon a person in a special way, but if He does, there is usually some good reason for it. See how He speaks about Moses. Persons traduced Moses; his own brother and sister, Aaron and Miriam, spoke evil of him, but God stood in the breach. He said, "Why then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?", Numbers 12:8. If God sets His heart on a man He will show that it is deserved. So it is here; Paul is about to say that the Son of God loved him and had given Himself for him. And is it not justified in every respect? What a place Paul will have in heaven! "Henceforth the crown of righteousness is laid up for me, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will render to me in that day; but not only to me, but also to all who love his appearing", 2 Timothy 4:8. One of the best reasons for advancing that the Lord loves me is that I love His appearing. What a day it will be for all lovers of Christ! I should not like to be among the non-lovers of Christ when He appears.

Well now, Paul says, "Who has loved me and given himself for me". He carried that in his heart. In all the circumstances at Jerusalem he had carried in his heart that Christ loved him. But then, what portion did Christ have in what happened at Jerusalem? I believe that every movement of that servant was pleasurable to Him. I am sure of that. It was a long experience, and great conflict for the truth entered into it, but during every moment of it the Lord's eye rested on His servant. We have to remember that this was an inspired letter; the Spirit of God was in the matter and caused Paul to write these words. And the Spirit of God would have pleasure in him; so that, after all these events and all his faithfulness, which is recorded, He causes him to write: "But in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me".

That was Paul's life, and, I might say, Christ's life entered into it. That is exactly what is meant. That was his wilderness life; it was his life in flesh, not yet life in heaven. All these events that I have spoken about refer to wilderness circumstances, and in these circumstances Christ was his life. "When the Christ is manifested who is our life ..." Colossians 3:4. Christ was his life; Christ was everything to him. It mattered little what others thought of him. "Whatsoever they were", he says, "it makes no difference to me", Galatians 2:6. He was dead, in the sense of which I have been speaking. He was "crucified with Christ, and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me".

Well, I trust that each of us will be affected by what has been said and will challenge ourselves if there is any good cause why Christ should love us. Do we provide any such cause as Paul gives? any history like his? What part has my history with Christ's life? The history of the assembly enters into Christ's life; He lives for her, but then she is His joy, the pearl of great price. Paul wrote the epistle to the Galatians with his own hand, but the Spirit of God guided his hand to put down indelibly that the Son of God loved Paul and gave Himself for Paul. It was not that He loved Paul just as he was writing. Paul was relating history -- that when Christ died He had Paul in His heart; He died for Paul. I do not know of anybody else whose hand was guided by the Spirit of God to say that Christ loved him when He died. What an honour! And surely we may aim to be somewhat like him and give a reason why Christ loves us. We may say that we are lovers of Christ, but then, He is a Lover of us. That is just the point I make, and He wants to say that He is a Lover of us. But when He comes to some of us, how much can He say as to the reason for His love for us? Of course, there is the general thought that He loved the assembly, and gave Himself

for it, but I am speaking now of what is par excellence. John speaks of "the disciple whom Jesus loved". We have to find out who that was, but not so with Paul. Paul says, He loved me. All these years since He died He has had me in His heart; He gave Himself for me there, and He is the same now as He was then. I am sure Paul could say that as advancing in the knowledge of his Saviour.

Well now, I just go on to 2 Corinthians 5:13 where the apostle says, "For whether we are beside ourselves, it is to God; or are sober, it is for you. For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died; and he died for all, that they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised". I am now going to speak about the influence of Christ's love and how it leads up to a right judgment because I find in myself, as I do in the brethren, that we are very poor in our judgment, both of persons and of things. This passage is to teach us something of judgment. He says, "For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died". That is judgment, and it hangs, really, on the fact of Christ's love for him. He had acquired experience of the love of Christ and it influenced him in the way of judgment: "having judged this that one died for all, then all have died". And again, "He died for all, that they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised". I wish to enlarge on the importance of forming a judgment of persons and things. The Corinthians were very poor in their judgment. Some of the leaders there spoke very disparagingly of Paul. They said that his speech was contemptible. They spoke ill of each other. There were partisans among them. They had their friends, and non-friends. It was a humbling situation but it is written down, beloved, that we should not be marked by these things.

The apostle says, "For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died". Now, that is how we judge. If it were possible for Paul to stand up with the hundreds of millions of men and women on the earth before him, he would take account of them as dead. They may be scholars, orators, great statesmen, great soldiers, and what not. They are all dead. I speak now of those that are not christians. Of believers, he says, "That they who live ..." But what about those great men who have fought and judged nations, who are ruling countries? Is it right to say that they are living to Christ? "That they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised". Is it right? Can they be said to be living to Christ? It is not so. I am leaving out true christians for the moment. But take the millions of people who are not believers -- Paul has judged "that one died for all, then all have died". It would take time to give some idea of the meaning of this. I only mention the scripture itself for us to look into it and face the fact as to what is on the earth and how God looks at it. Men are dying every day, but morally it is all done. One died for all, then all have died. But then we are to see what modifications there are. It says, "that they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised". The others are all dead; but anybody that lives, is not to live to himself, not to be selfish, but to live to Him who died for us and rose again. The Lord Jesus has died for us and has risen again for us. He is glorious! He is triumphant! He is in heaven! He is received there! He is everything there! Well, what about my life from now on? What is it to be? Living to Christ? That is the only thing. Morally, we should not live at all if we are not living to Him who died for us and rose again. It is a matter of only a few years and our lives here will all be over. We may as well look it in the

face; and the summation of it all is "that they who live" are to live to Christ. It is a great victory that the Lord has secured so many who live to Him. Others are dead. How thankful we should be, dear brethren, as we come together in these gatherings, that we belong to the living. Abigail said to David, "The soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of the living", 1 Samuel 25:29. I ask each one here tonight, Are you in the bundle of the living? What are you living for? "That they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised".

May God grant us to be stirred up by these things.

THE ASSEMBLY AS DIVINELY USABLE

Hebrews 2:12; Revelation 22:16,17

Other scriptures are in mind but these two will suffice to introduce the subject that is to be presented. They refer to the assembly, as divinely usable -- usable in a peculiar way, as no other family of God can be used.

The first passage is quoted from Psalm 22:22, which reads: "I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee", Psalm 22:22. The word 'congregation' is changed to the word 'assembly' in the passage in Hebrews. This fact shows how things, persons, systems, generations and families were utilised by God in earlier days to work out his thoughts, first in a tentative and imperfect way. But finally, as the time of perfection arrived, that is, the time of sonship, all is to be treated of and regarded in the light of what is perfect. We are living in the time of perfection. The time of imperfection was the time of law, but we are living in the time of perfection. We read, "When that which is perfect has come, that which is in part shall be done away", 1 Corinthians 13:10. We are in that time; it is a time in which we can speak of things as existing, not as things that should exist. Christianity exists; the assembly exists; the Holy Spirit has come; the Son has come; the Father has been made known; so that we are in the time of the existence of things that are of God. We are not waiting for them, they have come.

In speaking of the assembly, I would say of it immediately that it is the nearest of all families, or all systems, to the Deity, to God. Others are relatively near; there are to be many families in heaven and on earth which all will be named of the Father. He has pleasure in naming them, but above all He has pleasure in the assembly. He kept it in His mind without

saying anything of it to men, directly, for many centuries, "but when the fulness of time was come" Galatians 4:4 the assembly began to be spoken of; in fact, it began to be revealed. Not that all came out at once, for it did not, but at the same time we read, "The Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved", Acts 2:47. Now the word 'assembly' is not in the original. The word is not there, but the thing is there, and so "the Lord added ... daily those that were to be saved". It is obvious that He added to the great thing that was there; that is to say, what was being formed and was formed then by the Spirit of God. The assembly was there. People were being added, three thousand indeed being added on that day; and they were added to something; not added to judaism, but to the great something that had been in the divine mind, the assembly. And that is being added to all the time up to the present minute. The Lord is doing it; the Holy Spirit is doing it; and I may add, the assembly itself is doing it, for it has the means of adding.

Now the thing added to had already been spoken of prophetically in Psalm 22. The Lord Himself, in that solemn hour on the cross, was in mind as the Speaker. The Spirit of Christ in the psalmist wrote: "In the midst of the congregation will I praise thee", Psalm 22:22. He used the word 'congregation', which is not as great a word as 'assembly'. God was leading up to the greatest thing, and that is the assembly. God was leading up to that, but the word 'congregation' is used in Psalm 22. The writer of the epistle to the Hebrews changed the word to 'assembly'. Undoubtedly it was Paul. He was a living part of the assembly himself; in fact, he was the minister of it. No one knew more about it than he; he was minister of it, rightly so according to the place divinely given to him in the service of God. And he, under the hand of the Spirit, changed the word from 'congregation' to 'assembly' to bring it up to date, so to speak. We all need to be up

to date, not living in the past, but in today, as it says, "To-day if ye will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the provocation", Hebrews 3:15. God speaks, and is carrying on His work today; He is making much of the assembly today. Were we all to be translated to heaven today, we should find the assembly a great thing there. We should not look on it objectively, we should see that it is a great matter and that we belong to it; we are of it. It is not being used in heaven yet, but it is being used on earth. Our part should be to make it more usable and more useful. And if it is to be as useful as heaven would have it, then it sings; it is the place of singing. It has the exceptional place; the privileged and most distinguished place, because it is the thing in which the Lord Jesus Himself is acting in the highest way, namely, in a musical sense. He is acting musically in the assembly, and we all want to be in that, because we belong to the assembly. As David says, "With the instruments which I made ... to praise therewith", 1 Chronicles 23:5. He is a type of Christ there. We were all made for music for the Lord's use, and therefore we want to be sure we are of the assembly.

The writer to the Hebrews was of the assembly. He knew more about it than any other; in fact, he writes to the Ephesians, "By revelation the mystery has been made known to me, (according as I have written before briefly, by which, in reading it, ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery of the Christ,)" Ephesians 3:3,4. He had in his mind that he had more knowledge than others and he would love to impart it to the Ephesians; at any rate, he was concerned that they should know that he had it. This is a great matter. Paul is now with the Lord. There is a distinction between being with the Lord, and going to heaven. The departed saints are never said to be in heaven. They will be, but they now are with the Lord, as Paul said, "Having the desire for departure and being with Christ, for it is very much better", Philippians 1:23.

Although he knew that he was not going just then, the time would come and he was ready to go. He had a desire to go, but he was thinking of the saints. He was being used by God to complete them, and he had it in his mind that they needed him, and so he elected to stay, and the Lord left him here. He said that he was "pressed by both, having the desire for departure and being with Christ, ... but remaining in the flesh is more necessary for your sakes", Philippians 1:23,24. He elected to be with the saints. How long he remained, I cannot say; we are not told how old he was when he was martyred, but at any rate, he elected to stay for the sake of the Philippians, and in principle, by way of extension, it would be for the whole assembly. He would, in staying here below to serve the Lord, not only serve the Philippians but all the saints: "I fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh, for his body, which is the assembly", Colossians 1:24. He had that in mind, nothing else than the assembly -- not simply one group at Philippi or at Corinth -- but to "fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh, for his body, which is the assembly". And he would mean, in saying that, that the saints should not be behind; they should be what God intended them to be; they should be a vessel for His praise.

So this verse which I have read, says, "I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises", Hebrews 2:12. As I said before, he uses the word 'assembly'. The word is properly 'assembly', and the assembly is for God's praise. It is the time of praise, and the vessel of praise is the assembly, and the songs keep going on all the time. Were we to go into heaven, we should find the song proceeding, like the continual burnt-offering. And so it is, the song of God proceeds constantly, and we want to be in that song; we want to be in the choir, as it were.

Now I want to refer to Genesis 2. Chapter 1 is a record of the creation, and chapter 2 speaks of the generations of the heavens and the earth. The word 'generation' is used in that connection to show how important the creation is in the mind of God. Then we have Man. He is viewed as created in chapter 1, but in chapter 2 he is seen as formed. We are told he was formed, dust of the ground. He is not very peculiarly distinguished by the use of such material. He was made, you may say, in his entirety without breath. Chapter 2 is a wonderful chapter in the sense that God is saying, as it were, I have gone over things creatively but now I want to go over them a second time, so that they may be understood. And so first we have the reference to the seventh day, in which God rested, and then the histories or generations of the heavens and the earth. Then we are told about Man, how he was formed, because "there was no man to till the ground", Genesis 2:5. And God formed him, in all his parts, but there was no breath, and hence no movement, nothing really to cause pleasure to God. Life affords pleasure to God in the grass, in the trees, in the vegetables, but in man it is life in its supreme place, and so he is said to be formed and then God breathes into him. In Ezekiel we have a like position in the valley of dry bones. The bones first came together and then flesh came up, sinews, and the skin. And God said to the prophet, "Prophesy unto the wind". And he prophesied to them and life came into them. "The breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army", Ezekiel 37:9. That great army is said to be the "whole house of Israel" -- not part of it. Are the Jews included? Certainly. It is the whole house of Israel, but it is not so great as what I am speaking of. I am speaking of the assembly, which is a greater thought.

Well, I have spoken about Adam, who, in a sense is God's great thought because he is a type of Christ;

but he is also the representation of the entirety of the persons who are to form the assembly. He is made to live with the breath of life, the breath of God. God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life", Genesis 2:7. Then it is said that Adam "found no helpmate, his like", Genesis 2:20. There was not his like in the whole creation, no one just like him -- femininely. So it is that God said, "I will make him a helpmate, his like", Genesis 2:18. Now I am speaking thus, dear brethren, to show how God, at this very early date, had the assembly in His mind. And it is in His mind yet, and will be in His mind eternally. It is the greatest thought of the Creator's mind in relation to His creation. Hence it is said in this remarkable chapter that He put Adam to sleep. He had breathed into his nostrils the breath of life but now He puts him to sleep. It is the first time we get that thought; he is put into a deep sleep, which would imply that he was not conscious. He was not conscious of what was being done, but God was doing something. A new word is brought in; the word 'built'; it was never applied to Adam, but it is applied to the woman. She is not, as it were, an independent creature by herself. Adam was asleep; he never saw the woman as a rib, nor did she ever see herself as a rib. I am not seeking simply to occupy or entertain you, but I am endeavouring to convey facts and truth. And so it was that God was doing something of supreme interest, not only to Himself, but to heaven, and something that ever will be of supreme interest to men and to women. So that it is said that "he took one of his ribs and closed up flesh in its stead", Genesis 2:21. That is to say, there is no void, there is nothing wanting in Adam after the rib is taken out; the flesh is closed up instead. And there is no wound or mark to indicate any defect in him. He is a whole man; he is going to be a husband; and so it is said, "Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man. And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man", Genesis 2:22,23.

So we see what had been done, and how the Creator was occupied with something other than creation -- He was building.

Now I want you just to carry that word 'build' in your minds into what I am about to say as to the verses I have read in Hebrews and in Revelation. The book of Revelation takes account of the assembly, in a peculiar way in the use of the word 'bride'. John, in speaking of the assembly, uses that word, and he uses it in the sense that she is "as a bride adorned for her husband", in Revelation 21:2, and, "I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife", in verse 9. Revelation 21:9. She is thus shown to John. He says, first of all, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth ... and I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband", Revelation 21:1,2. That is, she has done something. Eve had been prepared for Adam. God had performed a remarkable piece of work without Adam's knowledge. He had taken out a rib and had closed up the flesh, as if He were to say, You are not to know what came out of there; it is going to be mystery. Presently it is to be disclosed. Something had happened, but God would say, You are to wait for the time of the revelation of the mystery. We are in the time of mystery; it marks our dispensation; and those of us who are in the dispensation, characteristically, are initiated into the mystery; the mystery of the kingdom of God, and the mysteries of God. This rib taken out of Adam, and the flesh closed up where it had been, is one of them. Much is said about Eve, but that mystery remains untold. Now it is disclosed, and the book of Revelation contemplates it. John the evangelist says, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth ... . And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband", Revelation 21:1,2.

He saw that; he saw her adorned, and I want to say, dear brethren, that the present is the time of adornment, the time of doing things. God is doing things, but the adorning is our part. Not that God does not adorn, too. The Lord puts His beauty upon us; but at the same time, there is such a thing as the bride adorning herself for her husband. It is a time of seeing that, and understanding that we are going to have part in that.

Now I wish to show that the bride has the first place with God; I will say, with Deity, to make the thing plainer. The title "God" may be used in a final way, but when we speak of 'Deity' we use another word, we are speaking of what is to be reverenced, and to which we bow. We are to bow to God, but we are to worship when we use the word 'Deity'. It is a special thought which is particularly available to the minds of those of the assembly. The assembly is capable of taking in more of it than any other family. And so it is that the Lord says, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come; he that will, let him take the water of life freely", Revelation 22:17. Now, this is after the Lord Jesus had said, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies", Revelation 22:16. The Lord is speaking in a personal way to us; He is speaking in the assemblies; He is not speaking abroad to the world; He is speaking in the assemblies, in a personal way to us. He says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies", Revelation 22:16. And then He says something about Himself. He is saying it in the assemblies, not anywhere or to anybody, but to the assemblies. And He speaks about Himself: "I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star", Revelation 22:17.

I have already spoken about music, as to where it goes on; it is in the assembly. And now I am speaking of what the Lord is saying about Himself in the assembly. He is speaking in a confidential way; we

are His confidants; we are those in whom the Lord has confidence. He is saying, I have something personal in My mind. I have brought you here today for a purpose -- to say something to you about Myself. The question is whether we are listening and taking it in. He is saying, "I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star", Revelation 22:16. That is one of the greatest statements, perhaps, that we can think of from the Lord. There are other great statements, of course, but this is one of the greatest; it is a matter of what He says and where He is saying it. And what He says is, "I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star", Revelation 22:16.

Well now, I come to the immediate thing I had in mind -- what the Spirit and the bride say. It is what is being said in response. It is a great way with God to say certain things and then look for response. There is very little response today, I am sure. At the same time, christianity is a current matter and some are speaking and responding to what God has said, and the response here is in two beings, speaking reverently. The first is the Holy Spirit, who is God Himself. When I speak thus, I am seeking to be reverential, to be very careful to say nothing that would discredit the Holy Persons of the Deity, but it is within our range to have to say to what God is saying, because the Holy Spirit is saying, "Come" to Jesus. The word 'come' perhaps was never employed in a more effective way than here. "The Spirit and the bride say, Come", Revelation 22:179. It is spoken in a united way. The first speaker is God Himself and the second speaker, whose utterance is in perfect unison, is the bride of Christ.

So we can see what a place the assembly has. There is no other family, system, society, group of beings or persons who have the place and privilege that the assembly has, and we belong to the assembly. We are privileged to be united in this matter, in saying to the Lord Jesus, "Come", in conjunction with the

Holy Spirit. I bring this forward as a clear proof that the assembly has the nearest place to Deity. She has the nearest place in that one of the divine Persons sings in it to God; "In the midst of the assembly will I praise thee". We have already seen that the writer to the Hebrews changed the word 'congregation' to 'assembly'. But there is something else. For the word 'sing', he uses the word 'hymn', which we do not get in the Psalms. Psalms are distinguished from hymns in Ephesians. Hymns refer to vehicles of praise, peculiarly, and so the Lord Jesus in the assembly says, "Will I praise thee", but the word is really 'hymn'. It is not the dispensation of the psalms, it is the dispensation of hymns, and the Lord Jesus says to His Father, I will hymn Thee in the assembly. It is a clear indication of our nearness to the Deity: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I am endeavouring with all the means at my disposal to convey to you something that ought to stay with us; that we belong to the greatest group of persons, the greatest family, in the whole universe, and that family is being used by divine Persons for Their own peculiar purposes. One of those purposes is to praise God in the sense of hymning to the Father, and then that the Spirit says to the Lord Jesus, "Come", and the assembly joins in unison to say the same thing. You see thus how near the assembly is brought in conjunction with divine Persons in speaking and singing. We belong to it; that is the thing to get hold of. If the dear brethren are able to lay hold of this and carry it away, I will be thankful, feeling that I have done something. I can only leave it with you, that you belong to what is nearest to the Deity. Be in what He is doing in His own way, in His own place in the assembly.

May God bless His word.

"THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER TO HIM"

2 Thessalonians 2:1 - 17.

J.T. The leading feature of this epistle, following on the first epistle, is what is said about the man of sin. It is important that so much stress is laid on the need of paying attention to facts in looking into the matter. The apostle says, "Now we beg you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as if it were by us, as that the day of the Lord is present". Clearly it is a matter of great importance, at first positively and then negatively. First, we are to have a clear understanding of this subject of the man of sin; but that understanding should be accompanied by what we have in the opening verse; "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him". The mind is thus directed solemnly and urgently to the consideration of this matter, but by these preceding thoughts, as if we are to be filled with them first, and so be ready for the awfulness of the subject; that is, the imminence of the appearing of the man of sin. We are to be fully ready for it and equipped so as not to be overcome but in a spiritual way be ready for it. The Lord had said in His addresses to the assemblies, that He would keep the assembly from the great tribulation which is involved in this matter. "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth", Revelation 3:10. So that we shall be out of it; we shall not go through the awfulness of what is indicated here, but it is all the more necessary that we should understand it and be warned; especially the thought of the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ and our

gathering together to Him. It is not simply our going to be with the Lord, but our gathering together to Him.

A.R. Were those in Thessalonica inclined to be shaken in their minds early?

J.T. That is what is clearly intimated. The apostle had already informed them of this subject, but they needed to be re-informed, showing that we may forget things that are constantly brought before us. We may forget them at a critical time.

W.W.M. In verse 7 he calls attention to the fact that the mystery of lawlessness already works. He put them on their guard.

J.T. Just so; clearly a current matter, as you might say. What already worked then is working now. It is an old matter really.

C.A.M. In what you stress as to the Lord's coming and our gathering together to Him -- assembly matters would be the only way to get a right view of things.

J.T. Yes; the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and then our gathering together to Him. The idea of gathering should not be foreign to us because it enters into the Lord's supper and other assembly services. We ought to become accustomed to the idea of our gathering together to Him by the services that we have regularly.

W.F.K. They were young in the faith; they had not been converted long.

J.T. No; that is remarkable. It shows how young people need to be instructed, not simply making a theory of prophecy but knowing the facts of prophecy; that they are imminent and overwhelming in themselves, only that we have the encouragement that we shall be kept out of the great tribulation, as the Lord says. The Lord promises immunity from it; at the same time He would have us acquainted with what is involved.

R.W.S. Is it a principle of his ministry that Paul brings forward these stimulating thoughts first before going into the matter of the man of sin?

J.T. I would think that. It is to be noted that the first epistle contemplates the Lord's coming, not His appearing, exactly, but His coming for us; it should instruct us as to what is involved in what we call the rapture of the saints. The idea of His appearing and our gathering together to Him should have some application to assembly services. That is to say, we ought to be accustomed to His coming, His appearing and our gathering together to Him. And then as to the idea of rapture, the book of Acts contemplates that at least one brother, active in the ministry, had been raptured. I refer to Philip in chapter 8:39. I suppose the suggestion is that it should be intelligible to all. And then Peter speaks about ecstasy. These suggestions are to remind us of what belongs to christianity and to those who are of it, that we ought not to be strangers to these things, either to ecstasy, or the appearing of the Lord, or the rapture, or our gathering together to Him. All these things ought to be more or less familiar to us, in principle at least.

F.N.W. The same expression, "caught up", used by Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:2 is used of the saints in the rapture.

J.T. Just so.

A.N.W. Are you placing the idea of the rapture on the words, "our gathering together to him"?

J.T. I was thinking we should not be unfamiliar with the thought of being gathered together to Him, because it enters into assembly service, in principle. There are certain things that may be spoken of, in principle, and then they may be spoken of literally in their fulness, for we are gradually brought up to things in christianity so that we become familiar with them. The early saints including the apostles

themselves had to learn much after the Spirit came. And that ought to come home to us. We all have to learn much and the question is whether we are learning and becoming familiar with what is in the mind of God and what is involved in christianity.

R.W.S. The person who was troubling these Thessalonians would have discouraged them by saying the appearing was past, whereas Paul speaks of His coming and our gathering to Him. He makes it a present continuous hope.

J.T. Yes; there are certain persons in the world who pretend that the Lord has come. Some here may not understand that there are such people, but there are those who hold this sort of thing. It is of the devil, because it is not true. And so here, the warning was, "Let not anyone deceive you". Paul had already said, "... that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as if it were by us, as that the day of the Lord is present". This was being suggested and it was a lie. So there are suggestions being made in the world, but they are just lies.

W.F.K. They were exhorted to encourage each other with the words about the Lord's coming in the first epistle.

J.T. That was about His coming for us. Perhaps we make much of that at our burials, but the thought should be also ever present, because it is very touching in its preciousness.

F.H.L. The matter of spirit and letter can also enter into assembly matters. We should be familiar with that, in a right sense.

J.T. Yes. Correspondence among the brethren is quite familiar. Here, it was misused: "... that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as if it were by us". What is alluded to here is false. It is a happy thing that there is much correspondence among the

brethren that is true and edifying, and some of it is in print, but we are to be on our guard against what is false.

F.H.L. The enemy would take what is current among us to pervert it to his own use.

J. T. Quite so.

R.W.S. Should there be scope as we gather at the Supper for our gathering together to Him, and then the showing forth of the Lord's death until He come? Should there not be the public vindication of the Lord's rights, the reversal of the world's judgment about Him? Is that not the idea in: "Ye announce the death of the Lord, until he come"? 1 Corinthians 11:26.

J.T. I think that is very important, so that we are publicly on the Lord's side, as we often quote: "Thine are we, David, and with thee, thou son of Jesse", 1 Chronicles 12:18. We are not ashamed to ally and identify ourselves with Him, and in doing so to celebrate His death.

W.W.M. There is a footnote to the word 'mind' that seems to be very important: Or 'shaken from a steady and soberly judging mind'. We are to have a right judgment of things all the time. Is that it?

J.T. Very good. We have the spirit "of power, and of love, and of wise discretion" 2 Timothy 1:7; and so it was that the demoniac who was delivered was sitting and clothed and in his right mind. He would be ready for anything like this that might be current among the brethren. We should not think of treating our younger brethren or those who have come amongst us lately as though they do not understand. The idea of a right mind is that there is a readiness to understand; and then, we have the mind of Christ, so that we are made competent to understand.

C.N. Is it also to be understood that the Lord's coming and our gathering together to Him will not only have its effect upon the assembly but upon

conditions outside? Immediately, He begins to make war with this adversary and will take on the kingdom and set everything in order, in view of God being all in all. All that follows the Lord's public coming and our gathering together to Him, does it not?

J.T. Well, the procedure in the Lord's service is instructive; we begin with the Lord's supper and then go on to what relates to the Father and to God. The word, "For as often as ye shall eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye announce the death of the Lord, until he come", 1 Corinthians 11:26 is important as bearing on what is outside. We meet in a room, or in a hall, or in a brother's house, and the room affords a protection to us, but at the same time it is, in a sense, public, and the procedure ought to be always in keeping with that. We are already accustomed to these matters. There is something that is distinctive about the assembly, especially as to the moral covering connected with it, which is indicated in the tabernacle; the different coverings, beginning with the badgers' skins and goats' hair, and then, inside, the veil -- a very fine texture involving what is spiritually refined. The nearer we come to the presence of the Lord we have the more precious things, and we ought to be in keeping with all that in our minds, and attitude, and clothing.

Ques. Is it instructive that the Lord Jesus, when He arose appeared to the disciples and His brethren, not to people at large in Jerusalem?

J.T. Just so; it was a secret matter; He was just risen from the dead, soon to go into heaven.

A.N.W. Does the announcing mean that in eating and drinking we commit ourselves afresh inside, and that, in effect, has an outward bearing in testimony to the Lord's death?

J.T. I think it has, but there is, in effect, a covering. The tabernacle involved that there is a certain protection, but then, that is a spiritual matter in ourselves;

we become more and more spiritual as we sit down together in assembly, because it is Zion in principle.

E.McK. Is what is inside in mind in the Lord's words, "I am coming to you"? John 14:18,28. Does that fit in?

J.T. It does fit in. It is His coming that has become familiar to us at the Lord's supper. The coming in a public way is to be in mind, too, but the coming to us involves our being together. He is not in the room waiting for us, He comes to us as assembled.

J.H.E. The disciples had the doors shut for fear of the Jews.

J.T. That was physical, of course, but then there is a covering in a spiritual sense; that is, our demeanour and attitude; what we are spiritually is included in what we are saying. It cannot be discerned by the natural eye, and it only points to the assembly and what is involved in christianity. How near to heaven we are in assembly; how near to heaven, and to God, and to the Godhead, too!

Ques. If we are not experiencing that nearness are we subject to being deceived? In Ephesians and Galatians and Colossians Paul speaks of this matter as well as to the Thessalonians. That is, they were in danger of being led away as a prey, through philosophy, or by other means.

J.T. Yes. We are apt to imbibe wrong doctrine and take on wrong principles, and if we do we become opaque; the Spirit is hampered in us. The veil represents the finest material, but the badgers' skins become a covering for what is of God. We have to be accustomed to what is spiritual. As coming to the assembly, are we opaque or transparent? If we are not transparent we are hampering the Spirit and missing the reality of the Lord's presence, because He comes to us, and that is a wonderful thing. It is a thing to be looked for by us, and all these things enter into it.

F.N.W. In Isaiah 4 the prophet speaks of the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning, and then goes on to say, "And Jehovah will create over every dwelling-place of mount Zion, and over its convocations, a cloud by day and a smoke, and the brightness of a flame of fire by night: for over all the glory shall be a covering", Isaiah 4:5.

J.T. Very good. We can only touch that at a meeting like this, because there is so much involved, but it is very precious to have the thought of it. "Over all the glory shall be a covering", Isaiah 4:5. It would suggest to our hearts what is involved in the assembly and its gatherings. The Lord, we are told in Acts 1, was "assembled with them", Acts 1:4. That is, He taught them how to assemble. Now we assemble and follow the word: "We being assembled to break bread", Acts 20:7. We do that now, and He comes to us as assembled, but in Acts 1 He assembled with them, I would gather, to show them what the thing really meant; there would be help in how He conducted Himself at that time.

C.N. So we have the idea of the "minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man", Hebrews 8:2. That is really what we experience now.

J.T. That is what we are speaking of. We have in that chapter a summary of things. What he had written up to that chapter is summarised and made real to us in a spiritual way. "Now a summary of the things of which we are speaking is, We have such a one high priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man", Hebrews 8:1,2. The great spiritual tabernacle is in mind.

C.A.M. Would 1 Corinthians stress the covering? The badger skins, for example, would deal with any inroad of evil.

J.T. That is very good; I am afraid we come in with much that renders us opaque, whereas we should be crystal-like. We should be like a sea of glass, everything in the open, not in a public sense, but in the spiritual sense.

C.A.M. In his second epistle the apostle seems to be free to talk about the house which is from heaven, as if he were emphasising, perhaps, the internal idea, and what it means to a priest to know the glory that is inside. And then the apostle refers to having been caught up. The glory side is in his mind in the second epistle.

J.T. Yes; and in chapter 3, he says, "But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory", 2 Corinthians 3:18. I do not know that we have arrived at the teaching of the second epistle very much. We have, perhaps, reached the first epistle, but the second is the one in which we come to the glory.

T.N.W. In His coming to us are we to think of Him as in His body of glory?

J.T. Just so; He does not come to us as He was during the forty days. That is another matter that should be touched on. He was here forty days after He arose before He went to heaven. I would say that whilst Christ does not come bodily, yet He comes to us as glorified. We are to be changed into the likeness of His body of glory; not what He was, although there cannot be much difference, and yet it is remarkable that there is a difference and that the Spirit of God stresses the idea of His body of glory, and that we are to have bodies like His body of glory. It is not the body in which He rose, simply, but His body of glory.

E.McK. Does John 20 fit into that phase of the truth?

J.T. Yes; because He speaks, in John, of ascending. We have already spoken of what may be regarded as in principle and then what may be regarded as literality. John 20 would be, in principle, what we are speaking of. He told Mary, "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father", John 20:17. In John He is seen coming into the midst as coming in from heaven, not simply as risen. It is the ascended Man that comes in. Some years ago there was much said about the Lord being always in the midst. It brought out the question of the Lord coming to us; not that He is always in the midst, but He comes to us, and how He comes to us is the next thing. Is it simply as risen, or is it as glorified? It is a very beautiful and important distinction, that it is as glorified that He comes to us, and as glorified we are to be like Him for eternity. What we are saying is of prime importance as to finality. The final thought of God is Christ glorified, and our part in it will be as glorified too; not simply as risen but glorified.

A.R. All we should need is a change in our bodies, as assembled at the Supper.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. In 2 Corinthians 3, it says, "But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory", 2 Corinthians 3:18. Is the apostle referring to the saints as gathered?

J.T. Yes; I think he is alluding to the assembly service, what is possible in assembly service now.

C.A.M. Have you not said that the Lord comes in in persons? It is not a question of the room, but of persons. I think that is one of the most illuminating things that could be said in this connection.

J.T. Yes. He comes in in persons. He says, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you", John 14:18. So that He comes from heaven; not simply as risen but from heaven.

C.A.M. Is not our apprehension of the Lord most important? It is a collective idea. There is a glory, and is not that glory present because of the ability with the saints to take in the Lord's personal glory? Is that not essential?

J.T. It is. We would have to distinguish between what is current now in virtue of the presence of the Spirit of God in us in the assembly and what will be eternally. I would say that what is present now has to be regarded by itself. It is a provisional possibility, whereas when we come to eternity we come to fixedness. It is not dependent on conditions; not dependent on our own conditions or even the presence of the Holy Spirit among us. Eternal fixedness is eternal but assembly matters now and assembly privileges are variable. It raises the whole question of what is possible in the period of the assembly's sojourn on earth; how the service of God applies and how it can be carried on. It is one of the greatest things, but it is a provisional thing.

Rem. "I am coming to you" John 14:18 refers in its entirety to the present dispensation?

J.T. It does.

Rem. In John 14, before the Lord says, "I am coming to you", He refers to the coming of the Comforter. Would not the presence of the Spirit make possible the conditions of which you are speaking?

J.T. Just so; one of the disciples asks, "How is it that thou wilt manifest thyself to us and not to the world?" John 14:22. The Lord says, "If anyone love me, he will keep my word", John 14:23. All that would be characterised as provisional, involving assembly privileges.

D.Macd. I would like to understand more clearly how the Lord comes to us. It is not corporeally, but does He come in Spirit or in persons?

J.T. At the beginning the Lord actually appeared to them. "It is I myself", Luke 24:39. And He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve, and to above five hundred

brethren at once, and to others. All these were corporeal appearings, but that did not continue. Paul mentions them in 1 Corinthians 15. They were miraculous. But when you come to what we are speaking of now as to assembly privilege, it is not miraculous; it is what is possible in a spiritual way while we are assembled. That the Lord can come to us, is a question of our spiritual ability to discern Him, and so we often say, "It is the Lord", John 21:7 but we do not mean it is the Lord corporeally, but that He is there spiritually and we enjoy Him there. It is a real Person. You could not point Him out as another in the company. It is something that has to be kept in our minds as inscrutable. We can speak of it but it is inscrutable. No one can define it and yet the Lord is really there.

Ques. "In his shadow have I rapture and sit down", Song of Songs 2:3. Is that suitable in the morning meeting?

J.T. I think it is, only whatever you get in the Old Testament has to be somewhat augmented to bring in New Testament conditions. It is important to bear in mind that there is a difference between what is provisional and what is eternal and final. There is what is provisional that the Lord affords to us to support us in the meantime, but it is not finality, because we return to our ordinary conditions.

E.E.H. Would this matter of the Lord coming in be discerned by something being expressed? Should something be said that would bring the Lord livingly before the saints at the Supper?

J.T. Something might be said, and it might not be. We are dealing with spiritual matters and we must admit we are not very much up to the thought of spirituality. The apostle speaks about persons who are spiritual and perhaps none of us can say very much on that, but it is a great thing to have the idea. God has given us minds capable of taking in ideas, and the idea in itself is profitable in a practical

way to us. The more spiritual we are the more the thing may happen. We will say, "It is the Lord", John 21:7. At that particular time we really feel the Lord is there. That is quite possible, but it is spiritual, it is not material.

Rem. On Lord's day morning we often say that we welcome the Lord in our midst. We must be in a spiritual condition to be able to say that.

J.T. The Lord knows what we mean and how to appreciate it. In the full sense there may be very little, but the Lord knows how to appreciate it and would give us to know that He knows it and values it; but we are dealing with spiritual matters.

Ques. Is the Lord's presence confined to our morning meetings or does He have liberty to come into a meeting like this?

J.T. I think He does. I do not think the appearings referred to in 1 Corinthians 15 are limited to the Supper.

A.R. How do you view the passage, "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises"? Hebrews 2:12.

J.T. That bears on assembly service. I do not think the allusion there is to what is in eternity. The Lord is dealing with what would be a part of assembly service in the interim between the time of the Spirit's coming and the time of the Lord's coming -- what happens while the Spirit is here. So much can happen in virtue of the presence of the Spirit. The Lord can be here in virtue of that presence.

R.W.S. Do you differentiate between the glory attaching to the Lord's coming in at the Supper and the way He might come into a gathering of this character?

J.T. I would not like to say much because the Lord is so good and gracious. He might show Himself at a great crisis of the truth. He may come in to confirm what is right. He might make Himself so

visible, spiritually, as to confirm the matter once for all. I have known that.

F.H.L. Like the glory appearing at the door of the tent of meeting in Exodus 33:9?

J.T. It is just that.

A.Pf. "But the Lord stood with me", 2 Timothy 4:17.

J.T. Yes; Paul says, "At my first defence no man stood with me, but all deserted me. May it not be imputed to them. But the Lord stood with me, and gave me power, that through me the proclamation might be fully made", 2 Timothy 4:16,17. That was a special matter in defence of the truth. That could happen at any time, in principle. And every right person would say 'The matter is settled for me; it is no question of doctrine, but the presence of the Lord'. The Lord's presence was there and there could be no question raised about it.

R.W.S. Could we assume that, under normal conditions, the Lord comes in at the breaking of the bread?

J.T. I would say that, but there might be a low, weak condition at any time and you may have to question if the Lord was there. The Lord's coming to us depends on conditions. We cannot just take it for granted.

T.E.H. Is it right to say that if evil is judged the Lord will be with us?

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Does He make His presence known to the whole company or to individuals?

J.T. Normally, it is collective. "Above five hundred brethren at once" 1 Corinthians 15:6 would mean they were all conscious of it.

Well, we did not get to the subject that was in mind primarily, but I think we got to what the Lord had in mind for us.

R.W.S. It would be helpful if you would tell us what was in your mind in respect to the man of sin.

J.T. We would hardly have time. It says, "Let not anyone deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition; who opposes and exalts himself on high against all called God, or object of veneration; so that he himself sits down in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God". All this has to happen, according to what the apostle says. The terrible consequences are spoken of in the book of Revelation. It will mean the overthrow of the whole present system of the world.

A.N.W. While we are conscious that the apostasy is working we know that while there is restraint the end has not come.

J.T. That is right; it is very comforting that there is "he who restrains" and "that which restrains". There are two elements. One might be government and the other the Spirit in the assembly, but they restrain the coming of the man of sin. It is comforting that we can have meetings like this today. We could not have them if the man of sin were here.

Ques. Does the "last hour" 1 John 2:18 mentioned by John cover the period from his day down to now?

J.T. Just so; that shows how heaven reckons things. This which Paul says of the man of sin had already begun to work, and it is still working, only it is under restraint. God is keeping it in check that the saints may be able to carry on. The Spirit of God is sufficient to help us, and government, too, so that we can carry on. We should keep on praying to God, in our meetings for prayer and generally, that these conditions may continue and that the truth may continue to be opened up to us.

A.R. Will the presence of the antichrist overthrow governments?

J.T. I suppose what is in Satan's mind is to set aside what is of Christ -- the Anointed.

Ques. Was this spirit seen in Absalom when he stole the hearts of the men of Israel?

J.T. It was the spirit of antichrist. However, this is more anti-God. He sits down in the temple of God, "shewing himself that he is God".

J.H.P. "And now ye know that which restrains, that he should be revealed in his own time". Does that suggest knowledge and spiritual perception amongst the saints?

J.T. Yes; the saints are to know. The apostles had said certain things to them but I think he alludes to their spiritual intelligence. And we may say that we know now. There are two elements that are restraining. Some of us recall how, in the terrible years of the war, there was a restraining power that kept things back or we would have the man of sin present, because he is already here, in principle.

Ques. May we expect, during the time that the assembly is here, that lawlessness will not get the upper hand over government?

J.T. I think that would be right.

HOW CONTENTION IS MET BY MINISTRY

Numbers 20:2 - 13.

J.T. I have been thinking of the book of Numbers as having a peculiar application at the present time. The original title of the book was, In the Wilderness, which is a good title; it states a fact that the people of God are in wilderness circumstances. In those circumstances we find that there is the spirit of complaint. It is seen in the book both in the mass of the people of God and also in their leaders. This chapter helps us as to this. It says, "And there was no water for the assembly, and they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron. And the people contended with Moses, and spoke, saying, Would that we had died when our brethren died before Jehovah!" The thought of contention occurs in the passage and elsewhere in the book. In an earlier chapter it says that Moses complained to Jehovah about his burden, that it was too great for him.

Here, the people complained against Moses and against Aaron -- their leaders, whom Jehovah had provided for them. And the leaders themselves failed in the designation they used of the congregation, for they called them rebels. But Jehovah intervened on behalf of His servants "and the glory of Jehovah appeared to them". It was because Moses and Aaron had gone from before the congregation to the entrance of the tent of meeting, and had fallen upon their faces.

Our consideration may help us to see how God considers for his servants; and then, how He expects them to consider for Him.

F.H.L. What about the lack of water underlying the murmurings?

J.T. That would be a governmental condition that God was ready to take up. The lack was only to bring out the resource; for that is a point on which the Lord will help us -- what resources there are. God's resources came to light notwithstanding the failure of the leaders.

A.R. Would the circumstances bring to light their corporate state? It is a question of water for the assembly, is it not?

J.T. Yes; it says: "And there was no water for the assembly". This wilderness circumstance would bring out what God can do for us -- what He can be to us in the wilderness. It is not in the land, but in the wilderness.

J.S. Do we see what God could be to His servants in meeting this condition?

J.T. Quite so; we shall see that they failed in their use of the means that were available to meet the situation, and in their methods, too. But the resources that were there are prominent in the beginning. Also, God took account of the attitude of His servants in the way they met this attack; it says: "Moses and Aaron went from before the congregation to the entrance of the tent of meeting, and fell upon their faces". God honoured them, because His glory appeared.

R.W.S. Were they provoked by what the people were saying, "Why have ye made us to go up out of Egypt, to bring us to this evil place?" Instead of answering the people they went to God about the matter.

J.T. Yes; the attitude of Moses and Aaron seems to cover the whole matter, and God accepted it. Whatever the assembly thought and said, the attitude of the servants was fully accepted; that is evident in that the glory appeared. "The glory of Jehovah appeared to them".

A.N.W. Is there something to be noted in that both Moses and Aaron were involved? It says, "And the people contended with Moses".

J.T. I suppose we have to humbly accept the fact that the more responsible we are, the more we are liable to be the objects of attack, if we are on God's side. Moses was the leading man as representative of God and His service; and it was against him that the attack was directed. Then the next thing is whether we are equal to meeting the attack graciously, as they did here.

C.N. Does being on their faces suggest their priestly state and attitude?

J.T. Yes; it would imply that, their priestly state; they are fully representative, in this sense, of God.

A.A.T. Paul, the leader, was attacked at Corinth, which represents our position in the wilderness.

J.T. Yes. Chapter 1 of the first letter to Corinth would indicate that God had provided for all that was needed, had richly provided. "Ye come short in no gift, awaiting the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ", 1 Corinthians 1:7. But in the presence of that wonderful supply there were divisions among them. And what is now to be raised in our minds is whether we are united in the truth; are we accepting the truth and feeding on it? And then, "We have the mind of Christ", 1 Corinthians 2:16. That is the means by which we meet conditions. These are the faculties by which we may be served in the things of God, "that we may know the things which have been freely given to us of God", 1 Corinthians 2:12. These questions should challenge our hearts now. Then it says, "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" 1 Corinthians 3:16. We have the temple of God among us, the Spirit of God being here. And then, as to the leaders, it is said of them that they are ministering servants: "Let a man so account of us as servants of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. Here, further, it is sought in stewards, that a man be found faithful. But for me it is the very smallest matter that I be examined of you or of man's day. Nor do I even examine myself. For I am conscious of nothing in myself; but I am not justified by this: but he that examines me is the Lord. So that do not judge anything before the time, until the Lord shall come, who shall also both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and shall make manifest the counsels of hearts; and then shall each have his praise from God" 1 Corinthians 4:1 - 5.

It is well to bring these verses forward in connection with our brother's comment about the attack on the apostle Paul. The attack here in Numbers was on the leaders: "There was no water for the assembly, and they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron". That is the position. The general idea is that the ministers were attacked, but it was because there was no water.

A.I. What special features of the truth do Moses and Aaron represent?

J.T. Together they represent Christ. Christ answers to both; He is "the Apostle and High Priest of our confession", Hebrews 3:1. The "Apostle" represents the authority of God. The "High Priest" is representative of grace and consideration. It is said, in Exodus 16, in relation to a circumstance similar to this, when the children of Israel wanted to return to Egypt, that Moses suggested to Aaron that he should speak to the people. And as he did so the glory appeared. The people, instead of turning their faces toward Egypt, turned toward the wilderness, meaning that they accepted the wilderness. That was in connection with the grace of the high priest. Priestly grace enables us to accept wilderness circumstances. These are important remarks for the brethren at the present time. How are we to be induced to accept wilderness circumstances? If it be through ministry,

it involves the grace of the priest. So that Moses represents the authority of God, and Aaron the grace of priesthood in Christ.

A.R. In verse 8, it says: "Take the staff, and gather the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes". Does that speak of the grace of Christ?

J.T. That is the second section where we come to the mode of meeting the crisis in the ministry. The ministers have been marked by humility; they have been formed in the truth and are seen as holding the position: "Moses and Aaron went from before the congregation to the entrance of the tent of meeting, and fell upon their faces; and the glory of Jehovah appeared to them". That shows what these two men were, that they were prepared to meet the attack. But then, can they be sustained on the high level at which they have begun? The high level, properly, was at Pentecost, but then the level was also reached in ministry. The question is whether it is touched now, whether we are on that level -- or, in principle, on it -- and whether we are sustained there.

C.F.E. When the people contended with Moses, they said, "Why have ye made us to go up out of Egypt, to bring us to this evil place? it is no place of seed, or of figs, or of vines, or of pomegranates; neither is there any water to drink". Is it because of the lack of water that there is no growth?

J.T. Well, now, are we to accept this as a fair statement? They are complaining of the wilderness. Is their report accurate? It is important when receiving ministry from God, to report accurately, because so much is retailed in the way of complaint that sometimes we cannot be sure of what is said. This report was not accurate. They said, "Why have ye made us to go up out of Egypt, to bring us to this evil place?" Well, what was Egypt if it was not evil? They say, "It is no place of seed". But it was

never intended to be a place of seed. According to an earlier chapter, there was wonderful growth, for some went up into the land. And we can do that at any time. We do not need to stay in the wilderness; there was a way out. The spies found a way out, and they found wonderful fruit in the land. So that there was unfair criticism, and unfair statements were made as to those who minister and what is amongst the saints in the way of privilege. I think we should acknowledge that there is a danger of complaint and unfair and untrue statements being circulated amongst the brethren.

A.N.W. They were soon to learn that water was there in the rock.

J.T. Quite so.

J.H.E. Quite a few have turned aside. They may say that there was no food or water, but it is not the fact, for there are those here who are in spiritual vigour.

J.T. Yes; there is a tendency for constant complaints which may serve to discourage. But often the details are not mentioned accurately.

F.N.W. Are we inclined to be occupied with our present circumstances, or past difficulties, whereas, those who represent God were engaged with entering the land? So that God says, in verse 12, "Therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land that I have given them". God was thinking of the land.

J.T. There is access to the land; but then these criticisms and complaints should be analysed, to see if they are so; and whether the present circumstances and the advantages of the saints are, at least, equal to earlier days. There is a tendency to refer to earlier days as if they were better than these, and to forget that we perhaps have advantages at the present time that some of us have not realised earlier.

F.H.L. The presence of God proves to be the test here, does it not? The Lord stood by His servants, and the glory appeared.

J.T. Quite so; the glory is really more, in a way, than the Lord's presence, because the Lord may be present in a concealed way, but when the glory appears, then there is something to attract us. It says that they "fell upon their faces; and the glory of Jehovah appeared to them"; that is, the glory was there. Why should there be complaint after that?

R.W.S. They were nearing the end of their journey, were they not? Do you think the enemy is especially intent upon diverting us as we are getting to the end of our journey, and the Lord is about to come?

J.T. That is true; and whilst you would avoid any eulogy of those who are ministering, yet we ought to be true and fair as to what God is providing for us in our day. We ought to take account of whether or not He is providing in keeping with the circumstances, and whether we are making the most use of the ministry He is providing. How much do we read? how much use do we make of what He is providing? how much value do we attach to what is placed in our hands? There can be no doubt but that we have proved, from time to time, in this district, the appearance of the glory -- manifestly so! The question is whether all that we have had vouchsafed to us is valued, or whether we are looking for something else and passing by what is in our very midst.

But then the next point is the ministers themselves; and how they acted. It says: "And Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, Take the staff, and gather the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes, and it shall give its water; and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock, and shall give the assembly and their beasts drink".

This is the direction of Jehovah. It is all very plain and clear. And then it says, "And Moses took the staff from before Jehovah, as he had commanded him. And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said to them, Hear now, ye rebels: shall we bring forth to you water out of this rock? And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his staff smote the rock twice". Well, you see, the ministers are at fault. The water comes, nevertheless, and that is a point that ought to be of great encouragement to us. Plenty of water came, nevertheless; that is to say, God is acting in spite of the defection of His servants.

A.N.W. Was the appearing of the glory to rally the people or was it to reassure the ministers?

J.T. I think it was an anticipative provision of God to maintain the ministers on the level on which they had begun. God anticipated that the ministers needed this glory to come in, because it says it appeared to them; as if they were in mind. Those that are in any way serving need encouragement so that the level taken up might be maintained.

Ques. God helped the leaders in Acts 6 to be maintained on a high level, did He not?

J.T. I think He did. We get the first murmurings there. The Grecians complained because their widows were neglected, and the complaints seemed to be reasonable, but what came out was the wisdom of the leaders. Their ministry was in relation to the word of God. It was on the highest level. But what was needed now was a lesser service but nevertheless a needed work. And that is a point that comes into this inquiry, because there are many who may not have ability to serve on the highest level, but there is something they can do. The question is, Are they ready to do it? Peter said, "It is not right that we, leaving the word of God, should serve tables", Acts 6:2.

There are those here today who will serve tables, and it is an important service, and what we are saying should encourage them.

A.N.W. In the acceptance of the service there was room for Stephen to develop in the ministry.

J.T. Well, that is the next thing. Christianity is a wonderful institution, with varied and rich features which come out as opportunity is given. And these special occasions offer opportunities for ministry that is needed; and it should draw out our appreciation.

T.E.H. Philip also was one of the seven, and he became an evangelist, and had four daughters who prophesied.

J.T. Just so; so that those who take on the menial services today may be doing something on a higher level tomorrow, because the system is of such magnitude that it affords these things. God is always ready to advance us. Therefore, the word is, "purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith", 1 Timothy 3:13.

Rem. In Acts 7 Stephen was able to give a whole summary of the history of the people of God.

J.T. Just think of what one brother may do! Stephen unfolded, in most remarkable order, certain features which marked the people of God up to the moment of his service. He purchased to himself a good degree and great boldness in the faith. And then Philip, also, purchased to himself a good degree of evangelical gift and power. It was not exactly what God endowed these two men with, but what they purchased to themselves. That is, they gave the Lord reason or cause to give them gift. And the four daughters of Philip were remarkable women. There seems to be an absence of such sisters at the present time.

F.H.L. What would the staff represent today?

J.T. I suppose Moses' staff would refer to his gift. But the word is, "Take the staff, and gather the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes, and it shall give its water; and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock, and shall give the assembly and their beasts drink. And Moses took the staff from before Jehovah, as he had commanded him. And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said to them, Hear now, ye rebels: shall we bring forth to you water out of this rock? And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his staff smote the rock twice".

We have to consider whether it is Moses' staff, or the staff. I would think that perhaps the staff refers to Aaron's staff. That staff had acquired this place. It had budded, and blossomed, and ripened almonds. And the rock was to be spoken to. The staff was not to be used to smite, meaning that it was now a time of speaking.

F.H.L. God had maintained a high level up to this point. "Moses took the staff from before Jehovah".

J.T. I suppose the staff is the one to be considered now. It would be Aaron's staff, I think -- the priestly staff; so that what is to be done is to be in the power of the Spirit of God.

A.R. Would it be like Paul's ministry in the second letter to Corinth?

J.T. Yes; he had said to them, in 1 Corinthians 4:21, "What will ye? that I come to you with a rod; or in love?" Paul would come to Corinth in love and in a spirit of meekness -- the priestly grace of Christ.

E.E.H. What is the thought of speaking to the rock?

J.T. Well, Moses was told to take the staff and to speak to the rock. "The rock was the Christ", 1 Corinthians 10:4 we are told in 1 Corinthians 10:4. In a word, that is the whole point.

R.D. Is there a distinction between the rod and the staff? The word in Psalm 23 is, "Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me", Psalm 23:4.

J.T. Well, the word "staff" is used here. Moses had an extraordinary experience with his staff. It was his own staff -- an ordinary thing -- something that he had in his hand that he used to look after the sheep, I would think, for he was a shepherd. And that was the staff that God took up -- what he had in his hand. It was a staff, and that is the principle we are dealing with now, except that the staff referred to here was the staff of Aaron.

A.I. Is there a difference between the staff mentioned in verse 8, and the one in verse 11?

J.T. Verse 8 reads, "Take the staff". In verse 11, it says, "And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his staff ...". The staff of verse 8 was to take precedence now over all others. It is the staff. But verse 11 says, "And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his staff smote the rock twice"; that is to say, Moses should not have used his staff. The staff should have been used; and that is clearly Aaron's staff, the priestly staff. It was a question of life. It is not the hard spirit that is often seen in service. We are apt to be hard in our spirits at times, but the staff of Aaron never represents that. It is a living thing: it is a question of life.

A.N.W. He was not told to smite the rock, was he?

J.T. He was to speak to it. That was the point -- God's speaking had been demonstrated in Aaron before. God had said of Aaron, "I know that he can speak well", Exodus 4:14. God selected him for that purpose. And now Aaron's rod is to be used. In Exodus 16, as we have said, when Aaron spoke to the people, they looked toward the wilderness. Aaron's rod budded and blossomed and bore almonds. The almonds have a voice in themselves, and I believe

that we have reached (I am speaking of ourselves) a period when we may expect life to prevail amongst the brethren in the ministry. We should look for it, and we should aim at it, that what we are ministering is living.

P.C. In Exodus 34, Moses' face shone when he came down from the mount. Is there something like that to affect the ministers in their service?

J.T. Quite; that shows what nearness to God implies in ministry, and how the ministers need to be near to God in their service.

R.W.S. There are times when the servants might speak to one another if there is a fault, but grace is to operate in the whole realm?

J.T. Quite so.

J.T.Jr. Would that come out in Acts 15 where the apostles had the meeting at Jerusalem?

J.T. Yes; that, we might say, was the last general council of the assembly. It was a general matter. It was held, not at Antioch, but at Jerusalem, as if God would have the final word in Jerusalem as to what He has to say in christianity Paul said, as to it, I went up by revelation. Revelation is a great feature of christianity. And he also says, I took Titus with me. Titus was a gentile, but he was an excellent example of the work of God through the ministry. He was Paul's son in the faith. He was there to go in and out among the brethren in Jerusalem. There would be many there, but could they find a better example of God's work in a young man at Jerusalem, than Titus was? He had come in from the gentiles, an evidence of Paul's work. So that it is a question, therefore, of what any brother may be in the effect of his ministry.

T.E.H. Would James be the kind of brother that used Aaron's staff in a difficult situation? He said, "Brethren, listen to me", Acts 15:13.

J.T. Very good; a man that can say that would have something very definite to say to such a remarkable congregation. But then, what he has to say links on with Peter. Peter has a place before him; therefore, the thought of personnel or persons comes into this matter, as to what their characteristics are and how they bear upon the ministry and the general work of God; because that is what they are set for, it is a question of the work of God.

A.I. Is the idea of the personnel seen in Titus?

J.T. That is right. Paul tells us that they did not demand that Titus should be circumcised, although he was a gentile. Circumcision could not add to the work of God that was there.

F.H.L. Why did Moses act as he did in calling the people rebels? Was he not in line with God's great thoughts?

J.T. I think he was affected unduly by their naughty ways. But we should be above that, and able to minister in grace in spite of it.

R.D.G. Would the reference in Psalm 106 help? "They moved him to wrath at the waters of Meribah, and it went ill with Moses on their account; for they provoked his spirit, so that he spoke unadvisedly with his lips" Psalm 106:32,33.

J.T. Quite so; amongst the people of God there is often a tendency to provoke those who minister.

C.N. Is there a suggestion that stability and freshness are afforded the assembly on the principle of speaking? Moses was to speak to the rock instead of smiting it.

J.T. And then the beautiful, gracious thought, that in spite of the failure of Moses and Aaron and the complaints of the people, the rock yields its water; that is to say, the rock is Christ. Christ is the same as always: He is always ready to afford water.

J.S. It says "much water".

J.T. Well, just so; not only for themselves but for their cattle. There was plenty of it.

Ques. Was God affording water to the Corinthians in that Paul could say, "I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling; and my word and my preaching, not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power; that your faith might not stand in men's wisdom, but in God's power", 1 Corinthians 2:3 - 5?

J.T. Well, that was it exactly. And it brought out what his spirit was. I think we should rest on the thought that in spite of the errors of those responsible in christendom, the Rock gives its water. In one sense, Moses and Aaron, here, depict the state of christendom. Then there is also the viewpoint that Moses suffered on account of the state of the people. We must not forget that God is still dealing with christendom. There is a remnant, but He is still dealing with christendom; He has not given it up. In spite of things that there are in christendom -- some of them terrible and dreadful things -- it is most affecting that the water still flows. It is not so much a question of the personal conduct of Moses and Aaron, in this sense, but, typically, the state of christendom with its hundred or more sects and its low state. But, in spite of that, God is causing the water to flow.

A.N.W. So that it becomes a kind of mediatorial service in their bearing the brunt of the error?

J.T. Very good; and then it says, "And the assembly drank, and their beasts. And Jehovah said to Moses and to Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to hallow me before the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land that I have given them". Moses and Aaron have to suffer, but verse 13 says, "These are the waters of Meribah where the children of Israel contended with Jehovah".

Notice that it says, "The children of Israel contended with Jehovah".

A.N.W. What about that further word that Jehovah hallowed Himself?

J.T. I think it is very comforting, that in spite of all that has happened in christendom God is asserting Himself. He is causing a testimony to be maintained as to His holiness.

J.S. And maintaining the glory on a high level?

J.T. Quite so; why should we not, therefore, go on, on the highest level and with the greatest things before us? God is bent on hallowing Himself, as it were, by what He is ministering, and what God is giving in ministry is to be read by the brethren. Let us understand what God is doing, what He means; that He is to be testified to and hallowed in spite of all that is happening.

T.E.H. Is there not a suggestion of this in Revelation, in relation to the Lord's return? It says, "And let him that is athirst come", Revelation 22:17.

J.T. That is right. And, therefore, the point in these meetings is to keep the truth on a high level, and freely before the brethren, and that it might have a living character.

A.A.T. While endeavouring to keep the truth on a high level, yet would you not pray for the prosperity of the gospel message in the churches or mission halls throughout christendom?

J.T. Quite so; but we are concerned immediately with what we have on the Lord's day. The privilege of the Lord's day has a hallowing power in spite of what goes on in christendom generally.

A.A.T. The water flowed out freely from the rock.

J.T. Quite so; but we seek to go on with what hallows God on the Lord's day, and as God gets His place we touch the abundance there is at that time.

T.N.W. If Paul is forced to call attention to himself, such as at Corinth, is the fault with the leaders or with the people?

J.T. I would think that much lay at the door of the leaders, but also, fault lay with the people. Moses and Aaron were provoked by the people, in this case, according to the psalm. They would not have failed had they been left to themselves. They were affected, adversely, by the unreasonable attitude of the people.

F.S.C. In Deuteronomy, Moses says, Jehovah was angry with me on your account.

J.T. He was angry with Moses because of the people.

BEING TAUGHT OF GOD

John 6:45; 1 Thessalonians 4:9

I am seeking to be content with these two short scriptures, hoping, however, that what they present may be expanded for the presentation of the present truth, for there is such a thing -- the present truth. There was the truth, and there will be, but there is the present truth, and it is in mind that this shall be kept before us. Peter uses the expression "the present truth", 2 Peter 1:12 but I have read from John and from Paul and they both, as I may say, were up to date in the truth that Peter referred to. Peter was an apostle, and had the ministry, as John and Paul had it, and no doubt had it all in mind when he spoke of the present truth. Both Paul and John would be quite well versed in what Peter had ministered. It was the truth equally with what Paul ministered, although Paul had the last word. It is he who says that he completed the word of God. No one else said that -- it is apparent that no one else could say it but Paul. But Peter had his line of truth, too, and it related particularly to the circumcision. He evidently received light and truth and principles from the Lord suitable for the circumcision and so he would, of course, devote himself mainly to that. It would be his part in the great dispensation. He had part in it and so did Paul and John and all the apostles -- each having a characteristic ministry. There were no two of them alike, nor are there two alike today in those who are ministering. The creation witnesses to the variety that is with God even in material things and it is more so in spiritual things. All is from God and He loves variety.

One can understand what pleasure heaven had in what had been inaugurated as the Lord Jesus went up into heaven and the Holy Spirit came down. Think of what there was in a general way and in

detail -- how each apostle, indeed, each one who contributed to the system would afford pleasure to heaven. We shall understand that pleasure, for we are to be there and they are to be there -- all the apostles are to be there. We shall know them and see them, and we shall have the opportunity of speaking with them, I am sure. The place the apostles have will be one of the features of the coming glory. We can understand that from the way they are spoken of as the twelve apostles of the Lamb. What pleasure the Lord would have in them! Features of life characterized them all -- they were marked by life. The reference to "twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" Revelation 21:14 is a remarkable expression. A somewhat similar reference is made to the apostles and others at the beginning -- "the crowd of names" Acts 1:15 -- it shows what they were to heaven. The very names convey what is living. There was nothing dry, or crusty, or merely legal about them. Each had his characteristics; each had his ministry, and hence a wonderful variety was available. And the same will be true in heaven, dear brethren. The scene will be made more glorious on that account. It is said of the glory of the Lord that we are to be "transformed according to the same image" 2 Corinthians 3:18 -- the glory that is involved in the image of Christ. John speaks of what we shall see and what we shall be like at that time. "We shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is", 1 John 3:2.

Well, as I have said, I wish to confine myself to what is conveyed in the two scriptures read. The first refers to the teaching of God: "They shall be all taught of God". The second refers to being "taught of God to love one another". I make a difference between these two things. As you can see there is the general teaching of God, and then the teaching of love. The latter is specific teaching. God teaches us to love one another. We are in a wide

field when we think of the general field of divine teaching, but then there is the specific field of divine teaching, and we need both. That God should undertake to teach at all is wonderful. Why should He give Himself to that? The apostles gave themselves to the word of God and prayer, relieving themselves of the burden of looking after tables, but then why should God turn aside, as it were, to teach? He is the Maker and the Supporter of the universe. Think of that, and yet He turns aside, to give Himself to teaching His people. Now this is one of the most important things we can consider. It should not be regarded objectively, exactly, for there is such a thing as my becoming one of God's pupils, one who learns from God. It comes to my mind just now in a most affecting way, that the Lord says, through the prophet, "He wakeneth mine ear to hear as the instructed", Isaiah 50:4. And He also says, "The Lord Jehovah hath given me the tongue of the instructed that I should know how to succour by a word him that is weary", Isaiah 50:4. I think that is wonderful! I would that everyone would take it to heart, that the Lord Jesus viewed Himself thus as a learner from God. Not that I would say that He would be one of a class with His people, but still, He was a learner and His ear was opened by God that He might know how to speak a word in season to weary persons. How many wearied persons there are today! I do not mean weary from manual work, but weariness of mind, troubled minds and difficult circumstances. The Lord is concerned about such. He is concerned to have a word for you tonight if you are a weary one. The Lord knows what it means. He took on such circumstances, dear brethren, so that we might understand that He knows what we go through. How precious that is! It may be that as we are going home tonight we shall get a word from the Lord, each one for himself, for it is a word to him

that is weary -- a person who is in weariness of mind or in sorrow. You may get a word from the Lord on the way home, or after you get home, or after you try to get some sleep, for you may not get sleep. Some of us do not get it just as we wish it, and the question is if we can think of divine things and make use of the time for the enjoyment or learning of divine things.

And so, as I have said, it is a question first of all of divine teaching; that is, God's teaching. If God were to inaugurate the teaching of science, how scientific men would flock to hear! Many devote themselves to science. They become known as scientists, but they may be missing it and missing what God is saying and teaching. Think of what He is teaching His beloved people in all these meetings! I might add to that a warning that we should all be present when such meetings are held. There are many such meetings, and those that occur every week, and we are apt to forego many of them, or make selections, maybe, and neglect the prayer meeting. But that is not pleasing to the Lord. On one occasion one of His disciples asked Him saying, "Lord, teach us to pray", Luke 11:1. The teaching of the Lord, as to prayer, is for all of us and we cannot afford to miss the prayer meeting. It is a time of teaching, you see. Many do miss the prayer meeting, saying that they can pick out whatever meeting suits best, but the meeting for prayer is one in relation to which the Lord would teach us. The Lord said, "When ye pray, say, Father ...". Luke 11:2. He undertook to teach His disciples how to pray. And that would mean that they were taught of God. It was not only that the Lord taught -- what He does, God does -- and so we cannot afford to miss any of the meetings. They are all special. Heaven is involved in each of them. Therefore, we are not to miss any if we can avoid it. The Lord knows well what we can and cannot do and there is no one more considerate than

He, but at the same time He is considerate of us in urging us to get to the prayer meetings. I say that because I know some of us make a selection and avoid the prayer meeting; they say they can get along without that, for there are other things they must do.

Well, I wanted to seek to connect things with God. As to the creation, of course, we must connect that with God: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", Genesis 1:1. On the other hand, it is said of the Lord Jesus that there was nothing made without Him, everything that was made, He made, showing how the Deity is bound up together. I speak reverently; the Godhead is bound up together in these matters. And so we begin with God. And the evangelist speaks of the Lord as quoting from the prophets, "They shall be all taught of God". The word 'all' there clearly means every person; every one of God's people, for that is what is in mind. It is not the man of the world, but the people of God -- all are to be taught of Him. And so I cannot but refer back to the beginning to show how, in the matter of teaching, God began it. He made man on the sixth day. He tells us specifically, through Moses, what He did on each day, as if God would come down to our level to tabulate for us what He did on each of the six days. It is a very touching thing and it brings up the whole question of education: How are we getting on in our education as believers? God looks down from heaven in these matters and He is thinking of the different things that are to be done. He has His own way of doing things, of course, but it is God's way and we are to learn from Him how things are to be done. The Lord, speaking through the prophet, tells us that Jehovah opened His ear morning by morning. Well, that is a thing to notice -- it is how things are done. And so this matter of education is started at the very beginning of the creation. It is not

an afterthought but something that had to be taken up immediately because something had happened -- sin had come in. And so it is viewed as having started at the very outset. Hence we are told that Enoch was the seventh from Adam. The Spirit of God intends that we are to think of the number -- how many of us there might be -- but there is one man singled out and he is called the seventh, not from the creation but from Adam. From the beginning, in Adam, at a given time there was a seventh: there were many other sevenths, no doubt, but I question if they have the same distinction, or if the Spirit of God could single them out and impress us with them as He does with Enoch. I would think that this thought is confined to one person, and that person is Enoch. In one sense I should like to have been that person, but there is something else going on today that I can have -- that we can have -- and perhaps we are missing it. And part of that something else may have taken place in these meetings.

You will see that I am seeking to impress every one to be on the alert because it is a time of divine teaching. For us it is not the time of the universities, although there are many, but we are dealing with what God is doing in the sense of teaching, and the question is if we are missing anything that has come from the mouth of God. The Lord Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which goes out through God's mouth", Matthew 4:4. Think of words coming from God's mouth! Can I afford to miss something that the mouth of God has spoken? That is what is happening, and it should awaken the brethren to the importance of what is going on. You may say that you must go to business, that you must earn a living. But there is more than that, you know, much more, for God is doing something and you do not want to miss it. You would not want to miss the very last words that God will speak to His people before they are taken to glory. Scripture speaks of the last words of certain

persons, such as the last words of David. Who can say that of God? He has never stopped speaking -- He is not going to stop -- He is God. I am God, He says, and there is none else; so that if God is speaking we want to be up to date with what God has said. I would not say there is such a thing as inspiration now but there is something very near to it; there is that which the Holy Spirit indite in the way of ministry for us. It is not inspiration, and yet it is almost that at times. We cannot afford to miss what is said by such as Anna. The word is that she departed not from the temple. Think of it, dear brethren, night and day! That dear old sister, and I do not say that she was only that when she was old, but she was old, and she is an example for us -- she departed not from the temple, serving night and day. She was going on with the things of God, learning for herself, but speaking to others. She spoke to all who were looking for redemption in Jerusalem.

But I was speaking of Adam and how there was one man called the seventh from Adam. He is mentioned in the book of Jude. It is a book of only one chapter, but it is a very important chapter and amongst the many things that are said is the fact that Enoch was the seventh from Adam. And I would say that means that it was the learning time -- the beginning of the learning time. God was beginning to teach men. Well, what would He teach them? Speaking reverently, I do not think it would be to give any further light about geology or the like of that. If it were needed He would do it, but He is not doing it, He is teaching about spiritual matters, and I believe the course of God's teaching began with Adam, and there was one man who is singled out by the Spirit of God as the seventh of that period. Whatever was going on he had part in it. And this leads on to many things that are to be learned, as taught of God. One of these is priesthood. I take the liberty of selecting my topics

from the great range of things which opens up, and I now mention the matter of priesthood and in doing so I am thinking of Exodus. Genesis speaks about priesthood too; indeed it speaks about one of the greatest priests; in fact, the greatest priest, because Melchisedec speaks of Christ. But it is priesthood in the wilderness that I am thinking about and Aaron represented that. Aaron was taught of God in priesthood. We cannot say that of Melchisedec, exactly, for he was a mysterious person, said to be assimilated to the Son of God. But Melchisedec did not teach Aaron to be a priest; Aaron was taught of God. Two of his four sons died under the government of God, and Aaron and his two sons continued in the priesthood. But I want to say (and this is important for both brothers and sisters) that we do not get anything about the priesthood of Aaron and his sons until we hear about the servant, spoken of in Exodus 21. It is as if God were to tell us that He wants us to serve Him -- because that is the one great idea in priesthood, that we are to be in service. As was said of Aaron "that he may serve me", Exodus 4:23. He is to be the servant, but his name is not mentioned as priest, nor are his sons' names mentioned either, until they learned how to love. That is my great burden tonight -- this matter of love. Aaron and his sons are not spoken of as priests until we read of the Hebrew servant in Exodus 21, who says, "I love my master, my wife, and my children", Exodus 21:5. It was not simply that he was a Hebrew slave, but he was a man who knew love. John says, "Hereby we have known love, because he has laid down his life for us", 1 John 3:16. That is how we know it. In the early days of the pagan Greeks, they did not know love; they did not know the meaning of the word. We must come to Scripture, and to persons mentioned in Scripture as priests, to know love. And these persons are specifically Aaron and his sons. And I mention them, dear brethren, so that we may have in mind that if we are

to get anything from this address we must learn to know love, and to say certain things to persons about love. So that, as I said, we do not have the priesthood developed until we get these men, Aaron and his sons, who were taught how to love. Nor would there be anything in our souls tonight that would contribute to the priesthood unless we knew love. God has that in mind; He has in mind to impress us that if we are to be in His school and profit by it, we have to learn the first great lesson, which is love.

Now I think the dear brethren will conclude that I am not going beyond anyone's reach in what I am saying. The divine school began with Adam, I believe. That is what is meant, I think, in Enoch being said to be the seventh from Adam. And if we are to be in that divine school, we have to begin with the great lesson of love and go on with it, keep on with it, prove it every minute, because it is to be known, it is to be proved. "Hereby we have known love", John says. The Spirit of God, through him, tells us that love is known "because he has laid down his life for us", 1 John 3:16. And so, if we are to learn this great lesson of love there must be some exemplification of the thing, and it must be constant. The exemplification is in the fact that "he laid down his life for us". And it now involves that, in some sense, we are laying down our lives. So that it is a time for everyone to enquire before the Lord about these matters, What have I learned today about laying down my life? That is how the thing came out in Jesus, "Hereby we have known love, because he has laid down his life for us", 1 John 3:16. So that the passage goes on to say, "And we ought for the brethren to lay down our lives". Thus the thing will soon become a daily matter, dear brethren, an acquired matter, a mastered matter, as it were, that I know love. And we should not give up our application to the thing until we master it, as they say in the schools. And so Aaron and his sons mastered it, in type, because when the Hebrew

servant comes into the scene saying, "I love my master, my wife, and my children", Exodus 21:5 then we have the nomination of the priest. We are qualified to act as priests before God when we have learned love.

Well, I must conclude, because we are to be governed by measure in our speaking, but I feel that learning love is a great matter and it is included, though not mentioned, in the passage of John 6"They shall be all taught of God". That is a great general fact that the saints of God are, generally, in the divine school. But Paul, in his letter to Thessalonica, specifies that "ye ... are taught of God to love one another". He did not need to tell them about it because they were taught of God. God Himself had taught them. That is the thing -- God Himself is teaching the matter of love. It was as though He did not leave the matter even with Paul or with Peter. Not that they did not teach it, because I am sure they did, but it is as if God were to say, I will undertake this matter Myself because it is so important. And hence, in that remarkable chapter (1 Corinthians 13) the writer says, "If I ... have not love, I am nothing", 1 Corinthians 13:2. What a sweeping thing that is. Do we have it? If we do not have it, the writer says, we are nothing! We may give all our goods, and even our bodies to be burned, but if we have not love, we are nothing. That is a sweeping matter.

Well, dear brethren, it is well to face these things. We are dealing with divine things. We learn in part, and we teach in part. We may say something that we have not thought much about, but perhaps we are saying the greatest things that we have ever said. That is how God does things and it teaches us to be on the alert, but especially we are to be learning love, for we are put to the test every day as to whether we know love. "By this shall all know", says the Lord, "that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", John 13:35.

"I JESUS ... AMEN; COME, LORD JESUS"

Revelation 22:16,17,20,21

I was confirmed in the exercise that I have had this evening by the hymn that we have just sung; that is, that part of it that contemplates the incoming of the divine thoughts as to Israel. These thoughts are without repentance: "The gifts and the calling of God are not subject to repentance", Romans 11:29. God has His thoughts as to Israel and they go through. We shall see that as to Israel there are eternal features; God alone can bring them about. So His thoughts will not fail; they will come out in due time and Israel will be apprehended and understood. Why should there be so much said about Israel unless there be some eternal feature that will go through? Zion is a word that has a great place in Scripture, a peculiar poetic place, a thrilling place, too, when we think of what Zion is and the unfailingness of God's purposes as to it. So I have ventured to read these verses. The brethren will understand that I hope to be brief, but at least to convey something that will tend to enhance what has already been before us; for it has been a remarkable day, if I may venture to say so. It has been a day of impressions that will remain with us, I fully believe, and bear on the moment, for it is a peculiar time.

And so I have read of the Lord addressing Himself to someone -- whom, we just cannot say -- but He is addressing Himself in an emphatic way as the pronoun would show. He says, "I Jesus". A peculiar charm attaches to the thought of the Lord, as it were standing up and addressing Himself to His people. I do not venture to say to whom the address was directed, but we shall come to it presently, for the Lord is addressing someone, saying; "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies".

It is "in the assemblies", notice. That is, the Lord is standing out, we might say, before the universe at such a time as is now before us, and addressing us. It has been going on all day, too. And the word has come very forcibly this evening, being stimulated by the hymn that we have sung, involving Zion, a word that reverts back to historic Old Testament times but comes down into New Testament times. But in these verses the Lord Himself is speaking to us in an emphatic way and addressing Himself to us: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies". It is not in the assembly, as you will notice; it is in the plural. The Lord is addressing the assemblies. No doubt He refers to the seven assemblies, and the word as to them is: "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies". That is going on all the time. It has been going on all day in this hall, I do not hesitate to say that. There has been an address to the assemblies; the word of God has come to us, as I believe fully, in an authoritative way directing us to something, and that something will be worked out I believe in our souls presently. But what I want to point out now is the peculiar position the Lord is taking up in this address, the peculiar position; it is one of the most peculiar that I know of, because it is Deity coming down to the level of the creature state. Now I trust that you understand what I am saying; I am sure you do. We have come to it that there must be something of this kind before we get through with the Bible, before we get through with the ministry. There must be some form of link between the Deity -- with God the Father, with Christ, with the Holy Spirit -- and the creature; there must be that, and I can hardly think of anything more important to be brought before the brethren at this time, for there is a goodly number of us here from various parts.

And so the Lord says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel". I cannot say who the angel is; that is not stated, but it is the Lord's angel, His own angel, one that He had employed in this book. And He goes on to say, "I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star". Now I dwell for a moment on what the Lord speaks of as the "root"; that He is the root of David. He is "the root and offspring", but the root, and that must involve Deity. I trust, dear brethren, you will understand what I am saying, but if you do not, it will have to be considered and weighed before God. We have come to a time in which we can speak to one another, having confidence. There is holy confidence among the brethren. I never knew a time in which there was more confidence among the brethren. I have been about a good bit recently, and there is great indication of confidence, confidence begotten of love, love working in our hearts. One of the greatest things that one can speak of is love working in the hearts of the brethren, involving confidence, and conversation. And then we might say ministry too, authority for ministry, liberty for ministry. We have had much of it today; but I thought I would bring in, in a confirmatory way at this time, what there is amongst the brethren in the way of confidence. And therefore I believe the Lord seizes the opportunity at the end of this wonderful book to speak to us in this way. He comes down to speak to us, and it is marvellous that He does. God has come down, as the hymn says, 'God come down, a heavenly Stranger'. (Hymn 112). Think of it, that God Himself has come down. I am reminded again of the service of God, and how much the service of God has taken form in hymns, holy compositions for the saints with which to serve and praise God. It is a time in which hymns have acquired a great place, and I may add that they are going to be extended. A meeting was held recently

in England to discuss the matter of hymns in view of revising the present hymn book. I believe that the service of God implies the feelings of the brethren, the very soul of the brethren being brought into it. And that enters into what I am saying now, as to the Lord Himself coming down, no less than the Lord Himself: "I Jesus". His name was to be called Jesus. "Thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins", Matthew 1:21. Wonderful fact!

But now I proceed to say further what is in my mind. The Lord says, "I am the root and offspring of David". We have spoken of the "root" which means Deity. "Offspring" is simpler; it shows that He was born of David. The word is indeed, "It is clear that our Lord has sprung out of Juda", Hebrews 7:14. Judah was His tribe. Remarkable thing that that should be said; that the Lord should take that place; that it should be said of Him that He sprang out of Judah! And now, in the last chapter of the Bible, He says, "I am the root and offspring of David", The word "root" conveys Deity, and I hope the brethren understand that. Who could be the root of David, except God? We are all said to be God's offspring, in another sense, but it is not said that God is our root. Jesus says, "I am the root and offspring of David", one of the greatest men to appear on the page of Old Testament Scripture. He is mentioned several times in this book and spoken of specifically as a leading man. But the Lord says, "I am the root and offspring of David". You will pardon me for repeating, but the root refers to Deity. Only God could be this; but it is Jesus. He speaks of Himself as Jesus: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies". That is where the conversations proceed; the assembly is the place of confidences, of confidential thoughts, where things can be said openly but in confidence. And the brethren

are coming into this great matter of confidence. And Jesus says here, speaking openly to those that were responsible and whom He loved, because it is a question of the assemblies, "I am the root and offspring of David, the bright ... morning star". The word 'and' should not be there as far as I understand. It is simply 'the bright morning star'. That is the great point, it is the morning star, the luminary; we are coming to luminous times, not dark times but luminous times. There are terrible times ahead. The great apostasy is yet to come, but the meantime is luminous; the Holy Spirit is here, and the Sun is in the heavens; the Lord Jesus Himself is above in the heavens; God is shining in His face; the glory is shining there. It is a wonderful time, it is a luminous time. And so He says, "I am the bright ... morning star". It does not say He is the sun; it is more the idea of a star. The Lord Jesus is subject, as it were, subject to God, subject to the Father, and He speaks of Himself as a star. We read in Genesis 1:16 that God made the stars. God did that; but the Lord Jesus, spiritually, is the bright morning Star.

Now I am not going to proceed very much further, but I just want to make the point clear to you that is in my mind. And so the next thing is what the Spirit says, and what the bride says. So we come down to the idea of the creature. The most wonderful creature of the whole creation is the bride of Christ; she is the most wonderful creature of the whole creation, in the universe. She is a creature, but she is presented in this way. She is the most wonderfully glorious creature that there is. "The Spirit and the bride say, Come". I am speaking now about the bride. I have been speaking about the root. It is God, it is Deity. And the "offspring of David" is Christ in manhood. But then the next thing is "The Spirit and the bride". I might say, properly, that the Lord has brought the Spirit forward.

"The Lord is the Spirit", it says in 2 Corinthians; "Now the Lord is the Spirit", 2 Corinthians 3:17. The Spirit takes that place and we love to think of how He has asserted Himself in recent times and become familiar to us. The communion of the Spirit is a wonderful thing. If we do not understand it, I would urge the brethren to think of it. Ponder over it; ponder the idea of "the communion of the Holy Spirit", 2 Corinthians 13:14. He is so near to us, so ready to converse with us, and to commune with us. That is the time in which we are living, dear brethren, a wonderful time! And "The Spirit and the bride say, Come". The bride is the assembly. I have already remarked that it is the greatest creature. The assembly is the greatest creature, but she is a creature. I speak very reverently, but I note that she is so closely linked up with God Himself, although a creature. It says, "The Spirit and the bride". The Spirit is mentioned first; that is God, but then it is, "the Spirit and the bride". She is a creature; the Spirit is divine; the assembly is the greatest creature in the whole universe. And we belong to it, beloved! I use the word 'beloved' because the brethren deserve it; you are all beloved, thank God. It is a time of love -- the time of light, but the time of love. But I am engaged with what the bride is, that she is the assembly, but the Spirit of God comes down, almost, you might say, to the level of this creature. I do not know how to put it; it is wonderful to be able to speak of it; but I think in what I am saying you will all understand that the Spirit, a divine Person, comes down to the level of the bride, so that they are speaking the same thing. "The Spirit and the bride say, Come". They are saying the same thing. The bride is brought into unison with the Spirit. Wonderful that it should be said!: Brought into unity in that one word -- "Come!" And I hope the dear brethren will just be able to ponder all this, although perhaps imperfectly

spoken, but I think you will all see now how much there is involved in it, and that you will all take it to heart, and get to the Lord in prayer to find out if each one has his part in all this. I would assume that all here are the Lord's and that you have part in all these wonderful things, and that we all know that the Lord Jesus comes to us, even as we are here today in lowliness, to enter into our matters with us, and yet He is God and we are creatures. The assembly, great as it is, is a creature. But the Lord Jesus is speaking, and He is God -- God over all, as Paul says, "Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever", Romans 9:5. What phraseology! That is the great point for the moment.

And so I proceed to finish. The next thing is, "And let him that hears say, Come". That is liberty, the liberty in which we are. "Let him that hears say, Come". You hear the bride speaking, you hear the Spirit speaking, but you are at liberty to speak too. And then it says, "And let him that is athirst come". See the liberty that we are brought into! "He that will, let him take the water of life freely". But I finish with that, dear brethren, because I trust others will speak, but I just want to say that it is a time of liberty; it is a wonderful time, and our time together today has been wonderful. Perhaps things are coming to us in a way that we have never had them before. These great things are coming within our range, for it is a time of liberty as suggested by the words of the Lord Himself: "And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come; he that will, let him take the water of life freely".

And then, finally, "He that testifies these things ...". That is the Lord Himself. There can be no question about what is being said and who says it. "He that testifies these things says, Yea, I come quickly" -- not simply that I come, but "I come quickly". And then someone says, "Amen". Who

says that? I should think that we all say it! "Amen; come, Lord Jesus"! Who can hesitate to have part in this wonderful, "Come, Lord Jesus"? He says, "I come quickly". There can be no doubt that it is to be very soon -- very, very soon; "for the coming of the Lord is drawn nigh", James 5:8. But do we love it? I think the person who speaks here loves it. The "Amen" is from one who loves it; "Amen; come, Lord Jesus".

And then the final word, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with all the saints". That is the word to everyone here, dear brethren. We belong to the saints. It is a saint time, a wonderful time; it is a time that belongs to the saints, but we belong to them; we are among the saints; we are of the body of Christ. Not that we are the body, but we are of the body. These are all wonderful facts! He says, "I come quickly" and the answer is, "Come, Lord Jesus". And He will come; He will be sure to fulfil His word.

THE DIVINE APPEARING IN NUMBERS 11

Numbers 11

Moses complained, "Why hast thou done evil to thy servant ... that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?" Jehovah said, "Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel ... take them to the tent of meeting, and they shall stand there with thee. And I will come down and talk with thee". What gracious consideration of the servant!

"Jehovah came down in a cloud, and spoke to him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and put it upon the seventy men". It was an appearing marked by God coming down and honouring His servant, speaking to him in the presence of the others. It would be seen that God was not unreasonable In putting such a heavy burden (as Moses said) on His servant -- that He had furnished him with sufficient power to carry it; for the Spirit put upon the seventy was taken from Moses. There was no added power.

There was, however, added personality; the seventy involved this; although the spirit of Moses, as it were, was upon all, each of the seventy had his own distinction.

Pages 71 to 412 -- 'The Glory of Christ'. Notes of Meetings at London, Ontario, 1940, Indianapolis, 1944 and Rochester, N.Y., 1949 (Volume 200).

THE GLORY OF CHRIST (1)

John 1:14; John 17:1 - 24

J.T. The gospel of John affords us more perhaps as to this great subject than any of the other gospels, We shall find that the subject of the glory of Christ is carefully sub-divided in this gospel. The verses read afford instruction as to the highest feature of the subject: Christ become Man, seen first as an only-begotten with a father, and then this point enlarged on in chapter 17 in His own words in speaking to His Father as to His glory which the Father should accord Him. He had finished the work that the Father gave Him to do, and He asks for the glory that He had shared along with the Father before the world was. Then He speaks of the glory which had been given Him which He gave to the disciples, and, in verse 24, of the glory which further had been given Him which they were to see. He links this last glory with the love that the Father had for Him before the world was. I thought we might touch the highest features of this subject first, and then work out to its effect in testimony here. Chapter 17 touches a state of deity which taxes us as to our spirituality and understanding.

J.W.D. Do you understand the love wherewith the Father loved Him before the foundation of the world to refer to His deity, or is it anticipative of manhood?

J.T. I think it is what existed then; He was not in manhood then. It is not presented as anticipative love, it is spoken of as existent. "I desire", He says, "that where I am they also may be with me ... for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world". It is a love that was existent then, and of course He

was not Man then. It was a question of love between two Persons. It seems as if it is brought in in the passage read to detain us before the great fact of deity, so far as we may apprehend it. It is indeed apprehended in love.

A.R. It would appear to be a glory existent between Themselves; other glories are in the main relative, in view of our being brought into them.

J.T. Yes; we are brought into the glory of verse 22 because it says, "the glory which thou hast given me I have given them". But verse 24 is what the saints are to see; and the Lord adding that the Father loved Him before the foundation of the world is clearly to detain us in that great position in so far as we can be detained in the presence of Deity, for "He that abides in love abides in God, and God in him", 1 John 4:16. We are not far from Deity in that position of love.

S.P. Is it suggestive that this gospel, being the last written, should deal with this thought of glory? No other gospel develops it as John develops it. Does it not definitely fit in with our day?

J.T. Quite so. The glory of man would find its way into the assembly in the latter days. Royalty was coming into the assembly; the emperor himself presided in the councils; so it was needful that the saints should be established in the glory of Christ.

S.J.H. Are we to understand that the glory to be beheld in verse 24 is the same as the glory asked for in verse 5?

J.T. That I am not prepared to say. It is a glory given in verse 24, and in verse 5 it is a glory asked for that had been His before. It is not presented as a communicated or given glory; it is a glory to which He is reinstated: "and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was". It is not communicated afresh; it is not something attaching to Him as

given to Him as man, but one returned to Him. Only in the position of dependence, He asks the Father to glorify Him "with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was"; but whether we can behold that I am not prepared to say. There is certainly a strong link between it and the glory in verse 24, a given glory which we behold.

J.W.D. Is not the thought of glory something that shines out and is manifested?

J.T. Yes, it is.

J.W.D. Is this glory "before the world was" in verse 5 attached to inscrutability, or would it be the glory connected with "Let us make man" Genesis 1:26 in reference to creation, God coming out? What I had in mind was that in some sense, just prior to God's coming out in revelation, you get the idea, "Let us make man". There is counsel, and yet still in deity. Is that not so?

J.T. The question is whether it is definable. "Before the world was" is indefinite and we can hardly add anything. We might say, Did the angels, or anyone see it? The Scriptures do not say. It is what "I had along with thee before the world was"; it was glory, whoever saw it. Why can divine Persons not speak of glory between Themselves?

A.R. Why did He say this before His disciples in relation to the Father?

J.T. I think He would have us linked with Deity in some sense. It is in love. What God is, is essentially beyond us; but then love is of God, and it evidently existed in the divine Persons before incarnation -- even before creation. So I think the link is in love; the understanding is in love.

E.P. How far would the expression in Ephesians go: "Chosen us in him before the world's foundation, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love", Ephesians 1:41. I was thinking of the expression. "in love".

J.T. That was clearly counsel. It was not yet existent because it referred to creatures; it was contemplated. But this glory existed then, the glory of verse 5; the other is just contemplated. What would you remark further?

E.P. I was just thinking of the expression, "in love"; I was wondering if there would be any connection with this.

J.T. "In love" is counsel. It is actual now, but it is in creatures. It is a question of the work of God, showing, as I was remarking, that the link with the Deity in eternity is love. But this glory of verse 5 does not include the saints, nor does it suggest that they see it. I do not say they do not, but it is a glory by itself not connected with purpose; it existed then whoever saw it. Divine Persons can evidently speak of glory between Themselves -- "the glory which I had along with thee before the world was".

A.B. Would it show to us that there have been no reservations in regard to love? As you have already called attention to, "He that abides in love abides in God, and God in him", 1 John 4:16.

J.T. Yes, quite so. I was just saying that seems to be the link as to us with what is in God. The "with" in verse 5, you will observe, is according to the note, "'along with' as to presence and place". It is a preposition of that kind.

J.W.D. Do you understand that to be connected with His manhood, that as in manhood He desires to take His place in Deity?

J.T. I think so, I think He has gone back on those terms. The link is in His manhood; but is it a glory that He can return to as Man within our range? That is the point, because it says that he "has also ascended up above all the heavens", Ephesians 4:10 and we do not go beyond all the heavens. It is a question of Deity.

J.W.D. He was always in inscrutable Deity, but

in that He requested this as Man, would not that involve some relation to the saints?

J.T. It is a question as to whether we are entitled to say that. You see the preposition is "along with" as to presence and place. He has gone beyond all the heavens. Heaven is created; but what is beyond them is not created. We take it to be the uncreated realm which belongs to Deity, and we have to leave it there.

J.W.D. I was just wondering as to the request underlying it. In Ephesians it is in purpose; but here He puts it on the basis of a request.

J.T. But it is a remarkable request. He says, "I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it; and now glorify me, thou Father", ("thou" is remarkable), "along with" (as to presence and place) "thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was". It is the same existent glory; it is the same glory He is going into now. To say we can follow that, although it is in manhood, is the question, because He has gone beyond the heavens.

W.L. Do you think the Lord brought this in to guard His deity before His disciples?

J.T. Yes. In verse 24, "Thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world" has the same force. That is, there is a guard but it is at the same time a precious thought. It is mentioned in verse 5, but then in verse 24 the idea of love is in it, which seems to be the link as to it in us.

C.A.M. Does it not help to recognize that with divine Persons as such, everything is an eternal now, all is present? The very use of the preposition is for our sake.

J.T. "Before Abraham was, I am" John 8:58 -- that is the eternal now, as you say; the Person has no beginning or end; it is Deity. The preposition helps us. It is a

preposition of dignity or equality, one Person over against the Other on equal terms; that is the idea of it. It is what the Lord had along with the Father. Your child may share something with you, but that is not the thought; this is a preposition of equal dignity.

A.R. The Father and the Son are not on equality.

J.T. Not if you look at the relationship; but if you look at the Persons you have equal dignity. "Glorify thy Son" is spoken in the third person; but in verse 5, "Glorify me, thou Father", it is Persons of equal dignity. The Lord when He comes down to verse 5 is taking the ground of equality although in sonship. There is personal equality in the use of the pronoun.

J.W.D. What would you say this great thought is intended to produce in us?

J.T. It tends to make us worshipful, a very important matter. Chapter 17 is the proper place to bring it in because the Lord is evidently speaking to His Father in the hearing of His disciples. Although He is Son, and recognises it, yet the Person is understood to be there, and He has it before Him that He is to be glorified by the Father along with the Father, with the glory He had with Him before the world was.

E.P. Is the thought in this chapter that the Lord is here free from limitations? In the preceding chapters, 13 to 16, in speaking to the disciples would not certain limitations be imposed upon Him on account of their condition?

J.T. Quite so; He implies that in certain remarks. But there are no limitations when He is speaking to the Father. And in verse 5 He speaks to the Father on equal personal terms, and He is such a One as can be reinstated in a glory which He shared along with the Father before the world was. In chapter 1

we read, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", John 1:1. "With God" would be personal identification, and then "the Word was God" -- what question can there be about it? If we bear that in mind throughout the gospel we understand verse 5.

S.J.H. Is not the title "Word" something that can be conveyed or communicated?

J.T. That alluded to His position here in manhood; that is where the title came out. The communication was when He was here, an appellation which belongs to Him in manhood, but which is used to identify Him in Deity -- not that "the Word" covers Deity at all -- it is an appellation that belongs to Him as communicating the mind of God here on earth.

A.R. John would have the greatest reverence in his soul as he took account of the Lord Jesus in these verses. He says "we have contemplated his glory" and yet he speaks on another occasion of being on His breast and in His bosom.

J.T. That gives a clue to what is in mind. Spirituality and spiritual intelligence are taxed as looking into this matter. It requires a state of love to look into it.

J.W.D. There will always be something about that great Person that will remind us of His deity, and we shall be able to recognize it.

J.T. It is all there. He says expressly that no one knows the Father but the Son, and he to whom the Son reveals Him; and no one knows the Son but the Father. There is no revelation of the Son at all as to His Person; that should always be in our minds. We are in the presence of a Person who is inscrutable eternally.

J.T.Jr. Philippians 2:6 opens with, "who, subsisting in the form of God", Philippians 2:6 subsisting in it; and then the direct allusion to His manhood follows.

J.T. That is good, it helps the mind. He was "in the form of God", Philippians 2:6. The word form is substantial, not simply external; He was substantially God. The account is that He "emptied himself, taking a bondman's form"; Philippians 2:7 the word 'form' is the same, He is substantially a bondman too. It is not external, it is real, and this form of God was a real thing. He says as expressing that, "no one knows the Son but the Father"; Matthew 11:27 not the word 'son', but the Person of the Son.

J.T.Jr. As in the form of God it is a glory which seems to contract itself when He becomes a bondman.

J.T. As we proceed in the readings we shall see the contraction or compression in such a Person from the form of God which is infinitely beyond any creature thought. Even in that second form, as bondman, no one knows Him. He is inscrutable, yet He can contract Himself or compress Himself into such smallness that we can take it in. That is what we shall come to in the subsequent consideration of the subject.

Ques. In chapter 1:14 it says, "We have contemplated". Is there the full idea of compression there?

J.T. Quite so: "an only-begotten with a father"; it is in compression but still there is glory attaching to it, that there is One there in manhood able to be with the Father as an only-begotten. He is able to take that place and shine in it.

H.B. Would Thomas's confession in John 20 have any bearing, in saying, "My Lord and my God"? John 20:28.

J.T. He was impressed with deity there: I suppose it is an allusion to the remnant by and by, how they will come in to apprehend Christ as their Lord and their God. Psalm 45 says, "He is thy Lord, and worship thou him", Psalm 45:11.

A.R. Would chapter 1:14 be what can be taken in? "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father)".

J.T. Quite so, it can be taken in. It is not the glory of deity, that is, it is not what He was before the world was, with the Father. It is what He is as Man down here as coming within their range. That is really the beginning of the gospel, the thirteen verses that precede this are prefatory. This is the beginning of the gospel from our side.

J.W.D. In what circumstances would this glory of an only-begotten be seen? Would it be our Lord's attitude Godward, as man, or what they generally saw in Him?

J.T. What they saw particularly at certain times; for instance this 17th chapter might enter into that, and other such occasions not recorded when He would be alone with the Father. We are told in Luke 11 that He was in a certain place praying; they would see that. I am alluding to that only as to what they see. John does not say they contemplated His glory in deity as God; he says, "we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father". That is where we begin; that is the position of christianity.

W.L. Would this chapter 17 be part of the contemplating?

J.T. Quite so. What better illustration could you have than this, His feelings expressed in His visage, because we are told He lifted up His eyes.

J.H. John's disciples said, "where abidest thou?" and the Lord said, "Come and see", John 1:38,39. What is involved in that?

J.T. That fits in with what we are saying; we begin with what we see. "We have contemplated his glory", and so on. John does not say, 'I, Peter and James, and all the others',

but it is understood who the we are here. It is the beginning of christianity, and the apostles are authoritative persons selected by the Lord to see Him in this way.

J.W.D. Would you say that this glory is entirely unique to Him, or in some sense might we be brought into it?

J.T. Well, it is unique of course. The words are descriptive: the word 'father' here is not the Father; that is, it is not formally the Son with the Father. It is ''as of an only-begotten with a father"; it is descriptive and what any person from Adam down would understand. It is the idea of a family; ''as of an only-begotten with a father" is intelligible to every person.

C.A.M. As I understand it, God has brought things about in a finite way in order that love might be known, and these relationships are all that love may be known in the greatest possible way.

J.T. That is the force of this passage. It comes within the range and understanding of every person because every person belongs in some sense to a family. So in testimony it is intelligible to the human race -- glory with a father. 'Only-begotten' would be a son, a masculine thought. Have you something to remark further?

C.A.M. God gets infinite delight in what He has brought into finite conditions because of the essential greatness of what He has brought in.

J.T. That is important, because no creature could afford this joy to his father that is contemplated here. No creature could be this to God -- an only-begotten with a father; the Personality of Christ in manhood underlies the joy the Father has in Him, but still it is in mind that we can be brought into it in a relative way.

W.L. Is it intended to be attractive to us?

J.T. It is not the first-born here, although the first-born is spoken of too; it is an only one. It is to intensify the thought.

J.W.D. Is it to enter into our worship, as in the hymn, 'And to know the blessed secret of His preciousness to Thee'? (Hymn 277).

J.T. Quite so.

N.B. What would you say as to Proverbs 8:30, "Then I was by him his nursling, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him"? Proverbs 8:30.

J.T. Well, of course that is wisdom personified. I should not like to bring it into this. It is anticipative. It is wisdom personified, and Jehovah in that chapter is Christ Himself. Everything was made by Him and wisdom was of Him. It is not easy to get it into our minds perhaps, but anyone who would look at Proverbs 8 would see that Jehovah is the Operator, and John 1 says everything was made by Christ. Wisdom is contemplated as a person, so we have to bear in mind that if it is wisdom as in Christ, it would be Christ as Man anticipatively: but it was there when Christ was making the worlds. "Daily his delight", Proverbs 8:30 and "my delights were with the sons of men", Proverbs 8:31, would bring out what wisdom is.

A.H.P. Would it be right to say that John 17 would give us to understand that lying behind every revealed or acquired glory was the glory that belonged to divine Persons? There may be much that we share and behold and enjoy as with Christ, but what was in the mind of divine Persons is peculiar to Themselves.

J.T. We must always remember that. I think it is important to keep in mind that John begins with Christ's glory. Our minds should be imbued with it in considering all that follows.

A.B. Would the import of this verse be seen in connection with the Word as "with God", but now become flesh, come into expression?

J.T. That is good. It does not say the Word became man; the word used is 'flesh', it is a condition intelligible to us, that is, within the creature's range; this is a condition which Christ took in incarnation.

J.S.T. How does that link on with chapter 17: "The men whom thou gavest me"? Is it a mature thought?

J.T. Chapter 17 is mature throughout. This is the beginning, that "we have contemplated his glory, the glory as of an only-begotten with a father". That contemplates Christ with God as man, not only a first-born, but an only-begotten.

J.W.D. Does this thought of man convey the thought of substantiality?

J.T. It does. That is, "the Word became flesh" is substantial. It is a practical expression, as John says in his epistle: "that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life", 1 John 1:1. That is what is contemplated in christianity; the disciples begin to see that.

J.W.D. Is not the idea of a man the basic thought? It is men that are sons, not children.

J.T. So that chapter 17 is "the men whom thou gavest me", showing they have come up to this now. In chapter 16 the Lord contemplates a man born into the world. The word 'child' is used first as to travail but the product is a man. You can see what the link is in the Lord's mind; and in chapter 17 those whom the Father gave Him were men through that ordeal. We come into manhood through pressure.

W.B. Why is the term "Holy Father" used?

J.T. We were referring to verse 6: "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world"; that is the first indication. You can understand that holiness would be essential; it is touched on later.

Ques. Would the sufferings include Gethsemane and the cross?

J.T. That is what He is speaking of in chapter 16; manhood is developed in chapter 16 out of pressure. The metaphor used is universally known, that of a child born, but then it is a man born into the world. That is the result the Lord has in mind. He does not continue the idea of a child; it is the product through pressure. He applies it to them: they were men through pressure.

E.P. Do you get this idea of substantiality in glory? I was thinking of Paul's expression, "eternal weight of glory", 2 Corinthians 4:17.

J.T. Quite so. Weight certainly involves substantiality.

Ques. You mentioned in your prayer the complicated affairs around us. Is that intended of God to make men of us?

J.T. I think so. I think the whole position today is that we may come into the truth that is ministered to us. I never knew of a period of greater pressure than at present, both in the assembly and in the nations; I am sure it is to effect manhood in the saints. Pressure is the way to it. That is what the Lord speaks of in chapter 16 in the metaphor He uses; He speaks of a man born into the world, and then He says, verse 20, "But the world shall rejoice; and ye will be grieved, but your grief shall be turned to joy", John 16:20. And then after the metaphor, He goes on to say in verse 22, "Ye now therefore have grief; but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one takes from you", John 16:22. That is what He has in mind, that they would come into actual manhood through the pressure, and He would crown it by appearing to them. There will be the joy of His presence after they have been through it. The Lord called Peter and all of them one after the other, and the pressure was consequent; but this peculiar

pressure in Gethsemane is what He has in mind here, that they would come out of that, and that they would see Him, be equal to it, and rejoice.

A.H.P. From chapter 13 the Lord's service amongst the disciples is an ascending one; His serving them as washing their feet finds its climax in chapter 16 in the thought of manhood. Would that enter into chapter 17, in the Lord speaking to the Father?

J.T. It does clearly. Verse 6 comes after the preliminary great thoughts of eternal life connected with Him as seen in effecting things for the Father. Then He comes down to what He has in mind, "the men whom thou gavest me out of the world". It does not say 'out of heaven', although that in a certain sense is true also, but "out of the world".

A.H.P. We are made to feel in reading John 17 the need of spiritual manhood to understand it.

J.T. It is not simply that you are in the relation of son, but it is the quality of man through pressure; and I believe the present state of things is intended for that, that brethren through this pressure should come into practical manhood -- what God would make us in suffering excruciating things at times, but God is making us so that we are given to Christ under these circumstances.

C.A.M. When you think of the great idea of pressure, I suppose the thought of love is in mind. It would not be primarily that God has an adversary or that the question of good and evil has to be solved. Would you not say it was necessary in order that love should be understood in its emotional character?

J.T. Quite so. But the question is how much can we stand under pressure, because the first thought with us in pressure is to be relieved. But it has to be. You are not to be relieved, because it is a question of what is being made. The pressure of what is

being made in the earth, who can see? Geologists know a good deal, no doubt, but it suggests what is developed. Diamonds and other precious stones are undoubtedly the outcome of heat and pressure. Creation affords abundant illustrations of what God is doing spiritually, and if He is putting us into tight places it is to form us, getting us to throw off what is inflationary and take on what is reduceable -- what can be reduced and at the same time refined.

C.A.M. God can get what is infinite out of what is finite, but is it not remarkable that the metaphor used in this matter of pressure in John 16 involves the expectancy which makes us hope and know that it is worth while?

J.T. "The joy"! It is the great thought from eternity, "My delights were with the sons of men", Proverbs 8:31. They are not created; they are developed. There is the family thought; there is the creative and the progenitive. "Sons of men" is what wisdom delighted in.

Rem. "I and the lad will go yonder and worship", Genesis 22:5. The lad would possibly suggest this side of it; he had to learn what the wood was and the binding.

J.T. That is very good. Abraham and the lad went to the mount appointed, and on the way they talked about one thing and another but the lad enquired about the wood. He was in the enquiring attitude; he was in the making attitude, for he saw there was a Iamb required for a burnt offering, and he was bound to that altar. Joseph too, when he was taken by his brothers -- what anxiety of soul! It refers to it afterwards as the anguish of his soul. It says too, that the iron entered into his soul. But see what kind of a man we get out of it! "God sent me before you to preserve life", Genesis 45:5. So God is aiming at getting men, those who can do things, and through whom God can do things.

S.P. Does God take account of pressure that comes on us as a result of breakdown, to work out

His own ends? With David it does not say, 'Thou art the one', but Nathan says, "Thou art the man!" 2 Samuel 12:7. Then the child dies, and David lies on the earth and refuses to take food, and refuses to be comforted. Perhaps Jehovah will have mercy! Then the next thing is that Solomon comes in.

J.T. That is a very good and instructive line of thought. David was a man. God took him up as a man. His name signified that he was loved from the outset, and his qualities are given immediately. He was a man when he entered into this terrible conduct, and now, is he to be less? No, he is to be more a man than ever. So Psalm 51 is not written immediately, it is when he is able to say, "I have sinned". He said that to Nathan, and that is the real man. Psalm 51 is the product of a real man, and all generations these hundreds of years have been provided with expression for their manhood from that psalm.

Ques. Would the product be seen in relation to the joy that you are referring to in chapter 16? It does not read that she does not have trouble, but "she no longer remembers the trouble, on account of the joy that a man has been born into the world", John 16:21.

J.T. Quite so.

E.P. Is that seen in Hannah's song? She celebrates the man child. She says, "The pillars of the earth are Jehovah's, and he hath set the world upon them", 1 Samuel 2:8. Do you think that was through pressure?

J.T. Hannah and Mary the mother of our Lord should be linked together in that way to bring out manhood in a sister. They are remarkable women because they bring out the qualities of manhood. They were both women of pressure so that Mary the mother of our Lord is able to say, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour", Luke 1:46,47. It shows she is able to

discriminate as to what is within her; she is a product of Romans 7.

J.W.D. Is that idea connected with the acacia wood underlying the gold in the tabernacle system?

J.T. That is right; but at Marah I think the thing is that it was shown: "Jehovah shewed" Moses wood (Exodus 15). It does not say it was acacia wood. Why did not Moses see it? It was there but he had to be shown this peculiar character of manhood coming out in Christ. He had to be shown, and I believe that would underlie the whole tabernacle system -- it is manhood, the boards are standing up. And they are big boards; you would wonder what kind of acacia trees could be had in the wilderness to provide boards a cubit and a half broad.

J.S.T. Is it instructive in John 17 that the men received the word? I was thinking of the acacia wood. The Lord says, "I am glorified in them".

J.T. I am glad you bring that up because we want to see christianity here. We must find persons who have "received". So Paul says, "There are gods many, and lords many, yet to us there is one God, the Father", 1 Corinthians 8:5. "To us"; we must get the us: that is the people that have received. So John develops that in saying, "As many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God, to those that believe on his name; who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God", John 1:12,13. That is the idea.

J.T.Jr. Was that showing itself in Israel when David began to come to the fore even while Saul was still king? That element began to be seen in the people receiving David.

J.H. It was seen in a peculiar position of pressure; there was a murderous man by him all the time. David was in the house and Saul took a javelin to smite him against the wall. That is where manhood is developed; it was there but it was developed.

Psalm 51 should be contemplated as to how we come out under pressure, and indeed all the psalms. David may have been the editor of all the books of the Psalms, but the first book is all David's, you might say.

J.T.Jr. He says, "In pressure thou hast enlarged me", Psalm 4:1. Would you say that in the pressure God was having His way with him?

J.T. Very good, that is Psalm 4.

H.B. Is there something analogous in the book of Malachi? You get the refiner's fire, the fuller's lye, and God sparing a man as a father spares a son.

J.T. Very good. "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau", Malachi 1:3. Genesis showed a man and God says, I love him. That is in the last book of the Old Testament.

A.R. 1 Chronicles 12 gives a list of men who came to David in the pressure. Would John 16 show those who were with the Lord in His pressure too?

J.T. Just so.

J.W.D. What was your thought about the glory that can be shared and the glory that can be contemplated?

J.T. Chapter 17 as a whole -- this range of glory -- gives the Lord's own words in speaking to His Father in presence of His disciples. He tells His Father what eternal life is. Why does He do that? "And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent" (verse 3). He is telling it to His Father in their hearing. That is the moral side; that is really the basis of the chapter -- eternal life. In it we are really delivered from idolatry in the true man in Christ; and we are then ready for all these glories that follow. Eternal life is deliverance; it is an out of the world state of things. I am thus able to take in these glories that belong to another world. So He goes on to the very top of things in verse 5, and

then comes down to the men, and tells His Father what kind of men they are (verses 6 - 12). And then He goes on in verse 22 to say, "And the glory which thou hast given me I have given them"; He is telling this to the Father. If He were telling it to Peter, Peter might say, 'What did you give us, Lord?'. His Father would understand that in His attitude of mind towards His apostles He was clothing them with sonship, and they were the recipients of it. In verse 24 it is the glory that they are to see, and He links it with love, saying the Father loved Him before the world was.

E.P. In this thought of the Lord's speaking to His Father with these desires in His heart, is there any kindred thought in what Paul says, "He is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day"? Would Paul's desires for the saints be included in that?

J.T. Quite so. "He is able to keep" them; the Lord has kept the men, you mean? How much you can put into all this, into these words of the Lord to His Father! Now if we are on Ephesian ground we can enter into this in some little way. We are ready for it, to fill it out in our measure.

A.R. Say a word on verses 22 and 23, "That they may be perfected into one". What is your thought as to that?

J.T. "And that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and that thou hast loved them as thou hast loved me". It is clearly our position in testimony there but it is great elevation. It is the testimony issuing out of the persons who are glorified with the glory He gave them. It lifts the testimony up to a high level. The consequence is that the world knows "that thou hast loved them as thou hast loved me". It seems to me that the Lord is bringing them to that in the understanding of sonship and the testimony that flows out of it.

A.R. Verse 21 says, "That they may be all one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us". Is the idea that the thing is working out reciprocally amongst us, and clothing each one of us with this glory?

J.T. One of the most difficult things I think is to look at the saints rightly. Brethren come together: how do I look at them? How do I clothe them in my mind? That is the point. The glory He gave Christ in testimony God gives us.

A.B. "The words" -- divine communications -- would bear upon that. It says, "They have received them".

J.T. Very important -- receiving His words, the words He had given them. What you receive gives character to you, so that christianity is verified in persons who have received it. And then verse 24 is the climax to all this, the glory that is seen in Christ, and the link with the past eternity before the foundation of the world. The 'foundation' being brought in in verse 24 shows that the Lord is coming down to concrete facts. It is the thing concretely as having a foundation; you can build where there is a foundation.

Rem. You spoke about "the Word was with God", John 1:1. We are not able to look back into that condition, but verse 24 would link us on with it in love.

J.T. We are set up in that way in love in relation to Deity.

THE GLORY OF CHRIST (2)

John 2:11; John 11:4,45 - 48; John 12:10 - 19

J.T. For those who were not present this morning it may be said that we are considering the glory of Christ in John's gospel. We took up the highest feature this morning, the glory which He had along with the Father, as He says, before the world was. He asks the Father to glorify Him with that glory, according to chapter 17:5. We dwelt on chapter 1:14, introducing the disciples to this great subject. "We have contemplated his glory", John 1:14 the writer says, "a glory as of an only-begotten with a father", alluding to Christ in flesh; as it says, "And the Word became flesh", a condition that is intelligible to man.

What is in mind now is to show how, as in this incarnate condition, He became an Object of faith, and that is why the verse in chapter 2 is suggested: "This beginning of signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed on him" (verse 11). There can be no doubt of the bearing of this verse on the last days, our days, inasmuch as it is a question of disciples believing. They had believed, or they would not be disciples even in name; but evidently they had not believed in the full sense hitherto. Now the manifestation of His glory calls forth true faith on Him. It is "on him", He was to become an Object of faith, a Person to be believed on.

Then chapters 11 and 12 are to develop this thought of believing on Christ. He is manifesting His glory in the signs, so that He regards Lazarus' illness as simply an occasion for the glory of God: "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified by it".

Ques. You make an important point of this believing on Him. What does that mean?

J.T. That He is an Object of faith as God had been. It says later, "Ye believe on God, believe also on me" John 14:1. It is not only a matter of trust, as believing in a person, but putting your confidence in a person, that Person becoming an Object for faith; indeed the fact that He is this involves His deity.

Rem. Paul says, "I know whom I have believed", 2 Timothy 1:12.

J.T. Well, I think that is another phase of the matter. It means to believe a person or thing, such as 'believe his writings' or 'my words'; it is there more a question of believing or trusting His veracity, the assurance of what He says or does. It is a different preposition here, it is "on"; the movement of the mind is towards that Person. It is to believe on Him in a general way as an Object of faith for man, such as God is. It brings out, I think, christianity. These signs that He did were the manifestation of His glory, His glory in the sense that He exercised divine power and became, therefore, an Object of faith.

W.L. Does chapter 2 emphasise the manhood of Christ, that is, Jesus? "This beginning of signs did Jesus".

J.T. Quite so; of course 'Jesus' is very frequently used by John to designate the Person known here below.

A.R. Do you think you might say that from Abraham on God established confidence in persons, whereas the thing is now set out in Christ in manhood, so that the Jewish mind is transferred to the Person of Christ?

J.T. Yes. It is a great matter that such a One as He was that -- the Man Jesus, the Man known among them, not simply "the Word became flesh", John 1:14 but known by this name, by the historical name given to Him.

A.H.P. Does the man in chapter 9 amplify that thought? The Lord having found him asked him, "Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him?" John 9:35.

J.T. That amplifies it and brings in the thought of sonship.

A.B. Does it help to see that the preposition 'on' is the same as in chapter 1: "who is in the bosom of the Father"? John 1:18. It is a continuation of that in relation to the disciples.

J.T. Yes; the idea is the movement of the mind towards an object; the preposition means that -- the movement of the mind in the matter of faith towards that Person. He acquires that status through the signs, so that the movement of the mind is toward the Person.

E.P. Is there some kindred thought in "those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart", 2 Timothy 2:22? I was thinking of your reference to the last days and the disciples believing on Him.

J.T. Calling on Him is the same idea; it brings in His exercise of power. Here He has become the Object of faith; He has that status as God has.

H.B. Would you say why the locality is mentioned?

J.T. Well, there is another sign there, you know, later on. It was to carry forward the accumulative evidence of what He is. There is another side in chapter 4, that is to say a family side -- the man's house. It is the same town and brings out the importance of localities, because while God defends the truth in general, yet where certain things happen in a locality we have to inquire why it is so.

If we were publishing an account of what we are saying now in London, Ontario, you might say, Of what importance is that? Leave out the name, London, that is nothing. But it may be something,

because localities have histories and the history of the place gives us some idea of why the truth is stated in that place; there is some reason for it. At Cana of Galilee there was a marriage, which is a very common thing, but there was never one like that, and it becomes amplified into the millennium. It is the last wine which is His best: that which is last is best. Then we have a child raised up there, and in the status of a son, the child of a nobleman, all pointing to millennial glory.

A.R. What you say about localities is very important, for Paul at Corinth could not say what he could say at Ephesus.

J.T. Quite so, and what he says at Corinth had a meaning because of local conditions there.

S.J.H. You are connecting reproach with Galilee, but then Cana is mentioned as well.

J.T. Quite so, it was Cana of Galilee. It was evidently a characteristic town of Galilee. Galilee means reproach, but Cana was a certain place there. The marriage might have been thought little of and the nobleman might have been thought little of, but the Spirit of God brings them in. The Spirit of God is intensely practical.

J.W.D. Do you think that at the time when John wrote this gospel christianity was becoming a series of abstract thoughts? Do you not think this outshining of divine glory must be worked out in connection with local conditions?

J.T. I think so; the instance at Cana is remarkable. We are apt to be extreme about prohibition and about nobility; but it says, "He came therefore again to Cana of Galilee, where He made the water wine". John 4:46. Notice the link between these instances. It goes on, "And there was a certain courtier in Capernaum whose son was sick. He, having heard that Jesus had come out of Judaea into Galilee, went to him and asked him that he would come down and heal his son, for he was about to die. Jesus therefore said to him, Unless ye see signs and wonders ye will not believe. The courtier says to him, Sir, come down ere my child die. Jesus says to him, Go, thy son lives. And the man believed the word which Jesus said to him, and went his way. But already, as he was going down, his servants met him and brought him word saying, Thy child lives. He inquired therefore from them the hour at which he got better. And they said to him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him. The father therefore knew that it was in that hour in which Jesus said to him, Thy son lives; and he believed, himself and his whole house. This second sign again did Jesus, being come out of Judaea into Galilee", John 4:46 - 54.

So that this was another connection with Cana. A nobleman or courtier is apt to be criticised in our minds, because we are apt to be radical, but radicalism is leaven. Or, we might say, We are prohibitionists; but we are simply leavened with wrong thoughts.

J.S.T. In this second instance is there the suggestion that the belief is reaching a wider radius than the disciples? In the first case it was the disciples, but here it says the courtier believed His word.

J.T. This courtier is an important man, not because he is a nobleman but because such a man as he should get blessing, because he is a genuine case. We are told, "he believed, himself and his whole house" John 4:53; it is his whole house now. The jailer is near this but hardly so pronounced because the jailer "rejoiced with all his house, having believed in God", Acts 16:34. It is the jailer's joy and faith householdly, but here it is that everyone in that house is a believer -- the whole house believed.

J.R.H. The steps describing this person are very interesting; first the courtier, then the man and then the father.

J.T. Yes, and the Lord called the child a son. His father called him a child: "Come down ere my child die"; John 4:49 it is a diminutive thought. But the Lord has a wider, bigger, greater thought; He says, "Thy son lives", so that Cana of Galilee is ennobled in this way. The courtier lived in Capernaum; he lived away down. He said to the Lord, "come down". The Lord was in Cana when the thing happened but the Lord did not go down, He said, "Thy son lives", and in that hour the thing happened; so that it is to bring out the glory of Christ; that is the point, and there is believing too. It is a question of where we are in these matters. We get into the current of things in John's gospel; faith is a current matter and we want to get into it. This courtier comes into it and I believe his is the only household in all of the gospels that is spoken of in this way.

J.W.D. Why is it that the question of prohibition is such a difficult matter among us?

J.T. It requires consideration; one does not like to bring it in much. It is a real leaven; it condemns the Lord, and we think we are virtuous because of it.

J.W.D. Would you say that sort of thing hinders the light of Christ's glory being understood?

J.T. It does; it reflects on His glory, because the occasion in Cana is the beginning of signs; and it was no small quantity -- a large quantity of water was turned into wine. It is mentioned in chapter 4:46, "He came therefore again to Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine", John 4:46.

S.P. Jesus says, "Thy son lives"; the father would take on a greater apprehension of him as a son than as a child.

J.T. He would, and he would never be a prohibitionist. The Spirit of God connects the two signs together, it is a twin sign.

Judaism is very pronounced among the brethren. As coming into the households it means the children

are not brought up rightly; they are not brought up in a balanced way. Temperance, or self-control, is the word. I am to look at things that God recognises and give thanks for them, and use them as they should be used.

A.R. What was Jewish in Galatia was a far worse epidemic than it was in Corinth.

J.T. Yes; judaism, legalism, that is what it was.

Rem. You remember the instance of king Saul, he would not let the people eat. I was wondering whether that would suggest the judaising error.

J.T. It is in 1 Samuel 14. Saul in that particular case is putting something on; he is doing his best to appear religious. It is the first altar he built and he sent for the ark. He is trying his best to be religious. Jonathan began to use what belonged to Canaan, the flowing of the honey in the land of Canaan, and Saul says, You must not touch that. But Scripture says, "Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil and to choose the good", Isaiah 7:15. Think of how far judaism will go!

C.A.M. Judaism carried to the full would rob the Lord of His glory.

J.T. Quite so, that is what they were doing in Galatia. So that He manifested His glory in this beginning of signs in Cana of Galilee and His disciples believed on Him; so that the point here is to be really disciples.

J.T.Jr. Wine would speak of joy. In Jotham's parable, Judges 9:13, the vine says, "Should I leave my new wine, which cheers God and man?" Judges 9:13. Is there not that thought introduced in the wine by the Lord, what is to exhilarate God and the saints?

J.T. Quite so, and to carry it on into the millennium. It carries the thought of joy, introduced on earth through Christ, to millennial joy; the marriage should be characterised by it.

S.J.H. What is the thought of "manifested"? Is it something more than revelation?

J.T. It is something that can be seen. It is a word John uses. "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world", John 17:6 as we had this morning. That is, the Father is brought out before them so as to be seen, so much so that in chapter 14:9 the Lord says, "He that has seen me has seen the Father" John 14:9; and again in chapter 21:14, "This is already the third time that Jesus had been manifested to the disciples, being risen from among the dead" John 21:14. It is what can be seen; anyone who has eyes to see can see it.

J.R.H. Would you encourage us to look for manifestations of His glory in our meetings?

J.T. Indeed I would. One has seen it many a time, the way the Lord comes in, and at an extremity too. It is remarkable sometimes at meetings how we find ourselves in a tight place; that is how they were at the marriage: they had no wine, a critical state at a wedding! The Lord is told by His mother, "They have no wine". Perhaps she thought she had special influence with Him, but He says, "What have I to do with thee, woman?" John 2:3,4. It is not to be on the line of nature, but still He takes notice of it. The vessels were there. What would happen in meetings unless there were some brothers the Lord could fall back on? They are not saying anything maybe, but they are there, and He says, "Fill the water-vessels with water. And they filled them up to the brim. And he says to them, Draw out now", John 2:7,8. It is a remarkable scene! So that we have plenty of wine, the best that has ever been. That often happens: at the end of a meeting you get the best. Sometimes the Lord allows the liberty to drop and the brethren get humbled and exercised, and presently He moves. There is no doubt about it -- the glory is there.

C.A.M. This is a crisis, and also as to the child.

J.T. This gospel is full of crises, and every one brings out the glory of Jesus in order that we should believe. That is why I thought we might have chapters 11 and 12 because they bring this great point out strikingly. There is a crisis in the house of three that are lovers of Christ; one of them is sick. Great anxiety comes in you may be sure with the other two, but the Lord says, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified by it", John 11:4. The Son of God is glorified but it is for the glory of God. That opens up one of the most interesting parts of the gospel; so many are brought into it -- the disciples, Thomas, Lazarus, Mary, Martha and the Jews. The outcome is the supper in chapter 12; it is not any longer Cana, it is now Bethany; then finally the Lord enters into Jerusalem. All this is the wonderful opening up of the glory of God in the glory of the Son of God. Faith is springing up all around. Lazarus was at table with Him. The point is to get into this current in John's gospel so that we may be real believers, not merely coming to meetings like this in a social way. Young people do it, but let us come in faith, so that faith may grow up and be in our souls and that we may observe what the Lord can do for us.

J.W.D. What particular features are connected with the idea of the glory of the Son of God?

J.T. The section begins with that really. Chapter 5 of course opens up the doctrine of the Son of God. The 6th, 7th and 8th are full of the doctrine of His Person, but it is worked out in remarkable settings in opposition to Christ, so that He is, as it were, forced to bring out the fact that "Before Abraham was, I am", John 8:58. That is chapter 8:58. The man in chapter 9 is blind, not because he had sinned or his parents, "but that the works of God should be manifested in Him" John 9:3. So that in these chapters, 9 to 12, it is

a question of divine sovereignty occasioning conditions in which to display itself; so that we have a blind man for that purpose and then a sick man. The sick man gives occasion for the glory of God, "that the Son of God may be glorified by it", John 11:4. That is what we have to look at for the time left us, because it is the richest field there is in the gospel on this thought.

C.A.M. Do I understand your thought that chapters 5, 6, 7 and 8 are the light or doctrine as to the Person? After that we have the idea of receiving; there is something living received by the persons. This man in John 9 sees the greatness of the Person of Christ, the Son of God; he received it through his faculty of seeing. Does that start a course of reception?

J.T. Quite so. The great fundamental word "received" that comes at the end of the preface (John 1:12) is to bring out what receivers of Christ come into, that is, the place of children. This man received his sight. Tell us more.

C.A.M. I thought that was what was in mind, the receptive faculty was brought into living operation in chapter 9.

J.T. Quite so. The Lord says to him in verse 35, "Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God?" "Thou, dost thou" John 9:35, that is, the man is distinguished. The chapter shows what he is; his very existence is to become the occasion of the manifestation of the work of God, and he is proving that. The "thou" brings him into prominence. The Lord says "thou" twice, it is emphasised, as He might say to anyone in such circumstances, You are a man of distinction. Not that He would inflate us at all, but you are a man coming into prominence now, you need to pay attention because you may miss the mark. He has done well, he has been cast out of the synagogue; he has been distinguished so far, very wonderfully so,

and all through his own loyalty and veracity in regard to the truth. Now that he is alone what will happen to him? He is detached -- a dangerous position, and the Lord knows that. We must all be attached.

E.P. Does this bring in the thought of distinction in the spiritual realm? "Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God?" John 9:35.

J.T. Quite so, that is what I was thinking. In the New Translation it is an emphatic "thou", meaning that you have distinction. You get it by loyalty to the truth as you follow it. He was cast out; that is distinction, to be cast out of the religious world; but then, can you stay out? If you are detached from that you must be attached somewhere else or you are liable to drift away. Who can stand alone? "And Jesus said to him, Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he", John 9:37. That is, attachment is involved; no one could be more attached than to be brought into association with the Son of God! So he says, "And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? And Jesus said to him, Thou has both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he. And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage", John 9:36 - 38.

J.R.H. It is beautiful how the Lord attaches Himself to one who is wholly detached.

J.T. Quite so. The Lord brings Himself near to us and says, I am the One who is speaking with you; and the man says, "I believe, Lord", and he worships Him. That is the way with God; the Lord would make worshippers out of us on those lines.

A.R. In delivering this man, it is not only from what is Jewish, but also from what is sectarian. We are not being delivered to set up another sect; the Lord is becoming the centre of a new universe.

J.T. Quite so. We are brought into a new world really, in believing on the Son of God; so that makes way for chapter 11.

There are three persons in Bethany, and the Lord loves them and would like to go and see them; but the glory of God is to shine there, the glory of the Son of God must come in: "that the Son of God may be glorified by it". That is chapter 12.

A.H.P. Much transpires in the two days that the Lord remains away: the person is allowed to die, and the disciples, the Jews and the sisters are brought to a very extreme point. They say, "Could not this man, who has opened the eyes of the blind man, have caused that this man also should not have died?" John 11:37. What would be the import of allowing that?

J.T. It is all on the line of which we are speaking. Things must happen to bring out this great thought -- the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified by these circumstances. So the Lord is not in a hurry to go, suggesting to us that in localities we have to let things work themselves out. You might send a good doctor to help Lazarus, but the Lord is not doing anything. Somebody may say, We cannot let things go on like this! But we might spoil the thing by coming in. Sometimes brothers from a distance come into a locality to work things out, but the Lord is staying away here. If God's glory is going to be seen it has to be worked out locally. Of course we should avail ourselves in such cases of brothers who have the word of wisdom or the gift of government.

A.H.P. We often find that if sounds of alarm are raised brothers begin to move around to seek to put a matter right.

J.T. It is a question of what brothers they are, whether they are fitted of God to help.

Rem. It is a common complaint!

J.T. Yes, it is; but here the Lord is told about the matter; the sisters sent to Him saying, "Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick. But when Jesus heard it, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified by it. Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. When therefore he heard, He is sick, he remained two days then in the place where he was" John 11:3 - 6.

Those two days are to let the matter work out, because not only is Lazarus to die, but he is to be four days in the grave to bring out this great matter.

Ques. Would those two days amplify His glory?

J.T. They are intended to do that. The Lord could have gone there and kept him from dying -- that would have been glory; but that was not enough, because He had healed other sick people. He had healed the nobleman's son and kept him from dying, but this time it is not that, but resurrection! That is the full thought. So he is not only to die, but to be buried; he is in the tomb four days!

E.P. Is that the reason why Paul goes on to chapter 15 of the first epistle to the Corinthians? Resurrection is in mind.

J.T. They needed that great truth developed because they were ignorant of God. It was a question of the glory of God and that the Son of God might be glorified thereby; all these thoughts must become facts. The Lord waited until they became facts, and now He comes. It brings out where Martha and Mary were, and above all, it brings out the tears of Jesus. It is a wonderful scene! "Many therefore of the Jews who came to Mary and saw what he had done, believed on him; but some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. The chief priests, therefore, and the Pharisees gathered a council, and said, What do we? for this man does many signs. If we let him thus alone, all will believe on him" (verses 45 - 48). So that it is a question of believing on Him through all this, and in

chapter 12 Lazarus himself is the occasion of persons believing.

A.R. Has this in view the raising of all the saints in order that the Lord may become attractive to us as the Centre?

J.T. And it is the proof that He is the Son of God. What enters into the testimony of the gospel is this fact of Lazarus and others like him. Faith is in that connection. He is declared to be "Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead", Romans 1:4. Lazarus was really dead. The word 'dead' is plural in Romans 1; that word 'dead' is very solemn. Death is so common that we hardly stop to think of it, but what a real thing it us!

J.S.T. Lazarus is risen, raised from the dead; would that help us in regard to testimony?

J.T. It does; he was the dead Lazarus but he is raised. He carries forward the thought of death in regard to the town, but nevertheless he is a raised man, and therefore the whole of chapter 12 down to the verses read is to bring out this great matter of the glory of the Son of God, and that in Bethany. Bethany becomes a greater town than Cana! I think the brethren ought to look into the importance of localities, because of what state may be there or because of what God may have done there. There was no thought of the Lord going back to Cana to be entertained as he was entertained in Bethany. It brings out the comparative value of localities. Localities are always under the eye of the Lord.

S.McC. Why is it called "the village of Mary and Martha her sister"? John 11:1.

J.T. Because it is their town; if you apply the idea of the local assembly, it is the idea that there are such sisters as those there. The town is taking character from them, and the Lord is going to add to that. Where He has His way He is given occasion

and opportunity for the glory of God to shine and the glory of the Son of God. Would you not like to be in a meeting like that?

J.W.D. So that in every locality this lesson must be learned.

J.T. We should leave the locality in the Lord's hands, so that He may work out what He has in His mind. Of course, if a man has a gift of government, or the word of wisdom, then his word should be taken account of in these matters; the Lord has provided him too; but let us let the Lord work the thing out. That is the great truth or principle that was developed in Glanton. Many here may know that Alnwick meeting was not very much; it broke down outwardly and brethren in Glanton settled it by letting the ones they thought were right come over and break bread with them. They took the matter out of the Lord's hands and the Lord did not allow that. The Lord put the meeting right at Alnwick, and He can put any meeting right if we leave the thing and let Him work it out, even if the brethren there are not very intelligent.

A.A.T. Is that why Paul did not go to Corinth?

J.T. He might have gone there and settled the matter but he let the thing work out, and it did work out. They were repentant!

S.P. Solomon gave Hiram twenty cities in the land of Galilee. I suppose it links with the Galilean position. I suppose we are inclined to think little of those who are small.

J.T. I have often thought of that. Galilee was under reproach anyway. There used to be a time when this country, especially the United States, was under reproach in that way and rightly, in that sense; but still the Lord always defends what is His own. It is like Moses' second wife; apparently she was not very much, according to the way Miriam would value things, but Moses had married her and

the Lord came down to the tent door to rebuke Miriam. So that it shows that if we are extreme in describing what is of God, however poor it may be, the Lord defends it.

John 12 is written to show how distinguished the meeting in Bethany was. "Jesus therefore, six days before the passover, came to Bethany". It was six days before He died, and at the end of that week we have what is called Good Friday. This is called Holy Week and last Sunday was called Palm Sunday. That is what the religious world is made up of. At Bethany there is not an atom of what is here in the religious world; it is all outside of what is just judaism. The spiritual thought of John 11 and 12 has been judaised; it has lost its power, whereas our reading is to bring the thing back to us.

What a scene this is! Oh, that the meeting in London might be the occasion of a scene like this! "Jesus therefore, six days before the passover, came to Bethany, where was the dead man Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from among the dead. There therefore they made him a supper" (John 12:1,2). It is just what He values. There is one there who has been learning from Him and it becomes the opportunity for her to show how much she loves Christ. She has kept the pound up to this time, and in this way the glory is more delightful in this place as in her pound of ointment. The house is filled with the glory! It is the glory of Christ but carried through the hair of Mary; the house is full of it. She wiped His feet with her hair; she is in it, the saints are in it, as well as the Lord.

J.T.Jr. The feminine side is able to function now as the masculine side is put right.

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. In chapter 11 it says, "Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus". John 11:5. I was wondering

whether chapter 12 is the reciprocal side, the returning of the love.

J.T. The point is they are worth loving, because in the beginning of chapter 11 we are told that Mary does this act. This instance enters into the whole position anticipatively; the Lord is going to reach this point in what He is doing. In the beginning of chapter 11 they are lovable, but particularly so in this scene depicted in chapter 12.

C.A.M. It is a striking thing that the word 'cosmetic' seems to be derived from 'cosmos' (the word for 'world'; it is connected with a woman's world); but here we have, as it were, a world for the glory of the Son of God.

J.T. Your reference to cosmetics, tell us more about that.

C.A.M. I am only referring to what you said about the hair of this woman, that it contributed in this scene of glory to the greatness of the Person of Christ.

J.T. Of course the cosmetics of the world today are repugnant.

C.A.M. So that in the use of them Satan is endeavouring to deprive Christ of this glory that Mary gives Him.

J.T. Quite so; she laid down her glory -- her hair is her glory -- she prostrated that at the feet of the Lord, and then the fragrance poured out.

J.W.D. The word 'therefore' in this passage is worthy of note.

J.T. Yes, it is a sequential passage. It is full of sequence. It is the fullest instance we have of the subject before us, and 'therefore' coming in indicates that one thing is promoting another. Everyone is shining at his best -- not at his best naturally but spiritually -- except Judas. You might say he is at his worst. The unspiritual man is exposed in such a scene as this!

J.T.Jr. Would you say that Lazarus would set out the masculine side that goes through death before it becomes effective; and then the feminine side comes up in a subjective way?

J.T. That is very good, the blending of the masculine and feminine side. Then we are told they were going to kill Lazarus because many believed on Jesus on account of him. And then we have what happened on the morrow (verse 12) with which Lazarus is connected in verses 17 and 18: "The crowd therefore that was with him bore witness because he had called Lazarus out of the tomb, and raised him from among the dead. Therefore also the crowd met him because they had heard that he had done this sign", John 12:17,18. That is what happens on the morrow. There is prolongation of the thought of the glory, the power to carry the thing forward. Now at the passover everything was to be burnt up, that is a finished matter; but that does not mean that power is not carried forward from feast to feast. There is great power in this feast at Bethany; it is six days before the passover, and there is one here who has got something that she has kept for a great occasion. This is a great occasion, six days before the time, and she has intelligence to know that it will be acceptable before the time. It is feelings and intelligence in Mary; she had kept it for the day of His burial, but it is acceptable before. You may have something for a later occasion but the Lord would give you to know that He can use it now, and she does it, and it is the great feature of the occasion. The fragrance of it fills the house!

Now on the morrow the thought of Lazarus is carried on, the masculine side. They want to kill him; he is suffering with Christ. "On the morrow a great crowd who came to the feast, having heard that Jesus is coming into Jerusalem, took branches of palms and went out to meet him, and cried, Hosanna, blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord, the King of Israel. And Jesus, having found a young ass, sat upon it; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Zion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt" (verses 12 - 15).

That is, there is a great current of interest flowing. The devil is working in Judas and he is working in the chief priests, but the current is too strong, they are not gaining at all. The current is strong and the crowd have got palms, that is, a sense of victory in the position. There is prolongation of a great occasion, it is carried forward, extended, and the palms are brought in. "And Jesus, having found a young ass, sat upon it". It is most important to get the fulness of the thought here of the glory of Christ, how the Son of God is glorified. He comes in at the right time Himself to bring it in, because we may be lacking in some point, although generally right. The Lord sees there is something needed and He finds the young ass; it is not provided by anyone, He finds it!

A.R. Is that why He says, "Fear not, daughter of Zion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt"?

J.T. It is a quotation of Scripture: the cry, "Hosanna, blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord, the King of Israel", is a psalm brought into the position. The Lord values that. If we are going on well in a locality the Scripture must fit into the matter. They are quoting Psalm 118:26, "Blessed be he that cometh in the name of Jehovah" Psalm 118:26. Then in Zechariah 9:9 it says, "Rejoice greatly, daughter of Zion; shout, daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, thy King cometh to thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass". Zechariah 9:9. If that scripture is to be filled out, complied with, we must have the ass. We cannot have that scripture complete if we have not the ass. We must have the ass, and a young one at that, and

the Lord finds one Himself so that He might fill out the position of glory.

A.A.T. Are you applying that to a brother?

J.T. Certainly, a young brother, ready for the Lord to lay His hand on him and use him.

S.McC. Paul had the young ass when he had Timothy with him.

J.T. Quite so. This one had to be found. So with Timothy, Paul had found him and he is with him. This is more the young brother in the place, one that is available to the Lord to fill out the position; because you cannot have this quotation from Zechariah without the ass, we cannot have the position in a concrete way without the brother it applies to. Where is he?

C,A.M. So that the words "on the morrow" bring it out.

J.T. It is one of John's tomorrows. It is what comes the next day, the continuance of the thing.

S.P. Would the crowd coming out to meet Him suggest that the Lord is now securing the movement that He has set Himself for among the saints? In verse 13 the crowd "took branches of palms and went out to meet him".

J.T. The palm is victory clearly, and they have got palms. The other evangelists do not mention the palms; John is the only one that does, as if it is the overcomer that does this thing. The carrying of such things forward requires overcomers, victorious persons.

The Lord finds the ass Himself, and that makes way for the quotation from Zechariah, so that it is a wonderful cumulative thought, Scripture brought in to show that it is authoritative. Scripture approves of this whole position.

Ques. Cana of Galilee, Bethany and Jerusalem; the thing is all worked out to a final conclusion. Is

the lesson learned and the glory of Christ seen in the way the thing is followed through?

J.T. Quite. Therefore He enters His capital here in glory. They heard Jesus was coming into Jerusalem; it is a final position, and so they meet Him in this way and the scriptures apply. Then it says, "The crowd therefore that was with him bore witness because he had called Lazarus out of the tomb, and raised him from among the dead. Therefore also the crowd met him because they had heard that he had done this sign". They "met him" -- there are those with Him and those that meet Him: "the crowd met him because they had heard that he had done this sign". So that it seems to me we have come to finality here in regard to the glory of Christ in testimony. He is carried into His capital according to the Scripture. Things must be done according to Scripture; whatever times we have, whatever feasts we have, we must bring Scripture in. It is a beautiful picture of the glory of Christ in the future: "Lift up your heads, ye gates, and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in", Psalm 24:7. That is the sort of thing.

R.A. It says they "went out to meet him". The blind man was cast out of the synagogue but these are moving out in victory.

J.T. Quite so, and we all want to get into that current, and then we shall be victorious as the Lord is victorious. They are carrying Him into His capital.

J.T.Jr. Would the fact that the ass is used indicate that sin has been dealt with? The ass is usable; the will is broken.

J.T. Yes, it is the acceptance of death. Lazarus enters into all this in resurrection.

A.R. This is the last chapter of public testimony in John's gospel; does it suggest that at the end of the testimony on earth the Lord is looking for this among His saints? For it says later on in the

chapter, "But though he had done so many signs before them, they believed not on him" John 12:37. The spirit of apostasy was prevailing as regards what is public, but over against that the Lord is using the young ass.

J.T. Quite so. If there is anything missing the Lord will provide it, if we are subject. The ass is in subjection.

J.R.H. Will you say something about how the Lord found the ass? It says, "And Jesus, having found a young ass, sat upon it". It does not bring in the disciples there.

J.T. Well, it fits in with the last days, the Lord has to do things Himself. If we make room for Him He will supply what we need, so that we might be "perfect and complete in all the will of God", Colossians 4:12. The Lord would supply what completes us, I think. The Lord would work up to the idea of the assembly in some small way; He would bring in what makes it complete.

A.B. "He sat upon it". Would that show He had absolute confidence that it would carry Him through?

J.T. That is so. He found it. He knew it.

THE GLORY OF CHRIST (3)

John 7:39; John 4:10 - 14; John 12:16

J.T. It is the proposal that we might see that the Spirit is here as a consequence of Christ's glorification, as living water, and then as the power of remembrance. Later we may see in chapters 14, 15 and 16 how the Spirit guides us into all the truth, but at this time we may see how the Spirit's presence depends upon the glorification of Christ, and necessarily gives character to the testimony rendered.

J.W.D. What do you understand by the thought of glorification?

J.T. Well, christianity in its testimony must include what Christ is as received in glory in heaven. We read that "God has been manifested in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit, has appeared to angels, has been preached among the nations, has been believed on in the world, has been received up in glory", 1 Timothy 3:16. The position He has up there must enter into the testimony involved in the Spirit here.

A.R. You mean the testimony on earth must correspond in some way with His glorification up there?

J.T. Yes, the glorification enters into it and enriches it. In John 2:22 the resurrection of Christ is said to affect the remembrance of the saints; and in chapter 12:16 it is said that the glorification of Jesus affected their memories: "Now his disciples knew not these things at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of him" John 12:16. The resurrection in itself affects the testimony of Scripture, because as risen the Lord expounded it unto the two on the way to Emmaus: "He interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself", Luke 24:27. John 12:16 would go beyond that, and so His glory was necessary for

the understanding of such scriptures as are mentioned. I think the Lord may help us to see the difference between Christ's ministry as here in the flesh and then as risen and then as ascended and glorified, the Spirit being here in consequence of the latter.

C.A.M. Would the memory in chapter 2, consequent on His resurrection, connect with His body looked at as the temple here, whereas the other scripture in Timothy involves His ascension?

J.T. It does. I thought the truth of the temple of His body is important as connected with Him risen: "Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up", John 2:19. That He could be raised by Himself is a great matter, and after He is risen the memories of the disciples are affected so that they believe: "When therefore he was raised from among the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken" John 2:22. So that the testimony of the resurrection has a great place in our position in itself, but the glory is essential to the full thought of christianity because the Spirit is here consequent upon that. In the type in Exodus the Spirit is given on account of the suffering of Christ; the beginning of spirituality really in the types is in Exodus 17. But John 7 goes beyond that and makes the presence of the Spirit consequent on the glorification of Christ. Christianity is a heavenly testimony; it is not a millennial but a heavenly one.

A.R. Would it be right to say the ten days that the apostles remained in Jerusalem waiting for the Spirit was a great tax on them?

J.T. It was, and formative too. What they were was brought into evidence. We can see it was not the full thought but it was wonderful as far as it went. Acts 1 is of great importance in that sense, what the

Lord left here is seen perfected by the testimony of His resurrection. Chapter 2 brings out not only the resurrection but the Spirit here consequent on His ascension; that is the full christian position.

J.T.Jr. In Ephesians 1:19 - 23 we have the exceeding greatness of power in bringing Him out of death, and also that He is set in heaven above every principality and power. It is the full thought there.

J.T. Yes, the exceeding greatness of His power in raising Christ and setting Him down at His right hand. That corresponds with John 7, the wonderful power of God in raising Christ up there and that He "gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body", Ephesians 1:22. I believe many do not go much beyond resurrection and many do not even go that far; they are occupied with what Christ did here; wonderful indeed that manifestation of His glory, but christianity is much more than that.

J.W.D. Would the idea of resurrection bring in what is positive? Death is negative, undoing all that is adverse and hindering. Is that right?

J.T. I think that is right. It is foundational, so that Romans stresses resurrection, not the ascension. The gospel stresses the resurrection as meeting conditions in men here; but still Romans goes to the Spirit, but it does not stress the heavenly side, whereas Ephesians does. That is full christianity.

S.J.H. Would it be the special portion as with Elisha, 'If you see me go up'?

J.T. That is the idea, I am sure. The second book of Kings begins with one man falling down, he falls down through a lattice; and another man is going up, Elijah is going up. The time of his receiving up is come, and that is what Elisha lays hold of. The journey from Gilgal with Elijah strengthens him in his soul, the thought of an ascending man; and of course it synchronises with John's gospel because

John has the ascending Man in mind. Elisha is in companionship with Elijah, that is why John stresses companionship with Christ so much. You get enlarged thoughts, and the more enlarged your outlook is the more you pray. You want to grasp the thing in power. And so the journey of Elisha with Elijah and the different points visited enlarged his view. It was the ascending man he was companying with and they went over the Jordan. He saw Elijah wrapping his mantle and smiting the waters but that was not all; they went over together and walked and talked. That is a further movement after the Jordan was crossed, and then came the idea of what Elisha should ask. Well, he says, 'I want a double portion of your spirit', meaning that he had gathered up in companionship with Elijah a great outlook. And Elijah said, "Thou hast asked a hard thing", 2 Kings 2:10. I think God values that because He likes to be asked hard things: "But to him that is able to do far exceedingly above all which we ask or think", Ephesians 3:20. Still He gives you credit for asking a hard thing, meaning you have a grasp of things you have not had before. 'If you see me go up', Elijah says, and he went up by a whirlwind, "And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father! the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof!", 2 Kings 2:12; but he got his request. A double portion is what accrues to us as apprehending Christ, not only as risen from the dead, but as ascended.

S.P. Would it in any way connect with Stephen's address? He sees the glory of God and Jesus.

J.T. God would bring in this very thing we are speaking of at that juncture. I believe that is the basis of the epistle to the Hebrews: it has been called the book of the opened heavens. Stephen looked up there, his countenance was like the countenance of an angel; it was really judicial. What is to replace Israel is another Israel; it is the heavenly thing. That

is why his view is guided upward; he sees Jesus and the glory.

J.W.D. This hard thing you mention, does the solution of it lie in the emphasis on the Spirit in John 7, the place we give Him as a divine Person?

J.T. That is what I thought and that is why I suggested the one verse; it gives character to the whole subject. "But this he said concerning the Spirit" -- it is a round-about thought, all the way around, it is the full thought -- "which they that believed on him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified" (verse 39), "not yet" means not yet here in activity; it is not, of course, a question of the Spirit's existence, but not yet in the actual sphere of activities. We are the sphere of His activities.

C.A.M. Where would you say the heavenly side comes into prominence in the gospel?

J.T. I think here, in chapter 7. It is not mentioned in chapter 4 where we have the living water, it is held for this passage until we reach the best that judaism has, the feast of tabernacles, the great day of the feast. The Lord awaited this circumstance to bring in this fact of the glorification of Christ as essential to the Holy Spirit here below. The feast of tabernacles was the last of the series in Israel, and this was the great day of it, the very best. That is the point at which Jesus cries; He does not cry in chapter 4. This is a more dispensational thought; in chapter 4 it is meeting need, but this is dispensational. The Lord awaits the opportunity for the cry. Why should He cry? He cries twice in this chapter, it is urgency! The ending up of one dispensation is not simply judicial, but it is also because of its insufficiency to meet divine requirements. Over against that the Spirit is "not yet", meaning that He is not yet in the sphere of operations, but now you have the supreme thought of God. The cry ought to be

observed; I think it indicates the urgency of the Lord as to this matter.

C.A.M. Does it express the emotions of divine Persons with regard to it?

J.T. Very good.

J.W.D. I was wondering about the thought of receiving.

J.T. I think chapter 7 is the balance of the 4th, and contemplates progress in believers; the word is, "But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive". The believing is past history in the disciples, but culminates in this; they had already believed. Believing in John is progressive; the faith here is beyond the woman's faith in chapter 4.

S.J.H. Would the Lord's cry indicate His feelings about the emptiness in the best that was earthly?

J.T. I think that is the way it stands. John gives great place to cries, divine feelings. Twice in this chapter the Lord cries and He cries at the resurrection of Lazarus. In chapter 12 His soul is troubled; He weeps in chapter 11; all this comes into this book and it is to bring out how real things are, how much feeling there is in heaven. It finds a reflex here in the flowing out from the inward parts of the believer, the place of his affections, the region of our organs that are automatic in their movements; they are genuinely affected, that is the idea; christianity is a system of feelings.

S.P. The Spirit as a divine Person enters into this too. This is the Lord's cry and then the Spirit cries.

J.T. Quite so. I think we are very slow to lay hold of divine feelings. God says, You weary me; He says that to Ahaz (Isaiah 7:13). In Genesis 6:6 it says, "And Jehovah repented that he had made Man on the earth, and it grieved him in his heart", Genesis 6:6. In Genesis 1:2 the Spirit brooded over the face of the deep. God comes down to where we are, to give us to

understand He is not far away from us. Paul says, "As also some of the poets amongst you have said, For we are also his offspring", Acts 17:28. Even man as he is created is like God. How much more so as learning of God in Christ and having the Spirit of Christ!

A.R. Do the "rivers" (verse 38) suggest that we have love for all the saints?

J.T. Yes; the allusion would include the river in Eden; "as the scripture has said" is not a quotation, it is what Scripture says in effect. Matthew makes a point of quotations, John too; but this particular instance is not that, it is a question of what Scripture says in effect. The Scriptures are full of the thought of a river or rivers and the sources of them too.

C.A.M. Do you see a reflex of that in the expressions Paul uses to Timothy in the expression of his affections?

J.T. Yes, you can see it throughout Paul's ministry; what an affectionate man he was! His salutations are remarkable. How he could remember the brethren by name in order to tell them of his love! One of the greatest difficulties one has is naming the brethren, to know them by name, and be able to think of each according to what you know of them. The apostle excels in that as, for instance, in Romans.

A.R. You spoke about the river in Eden; there Eden would be the source, but in chapter 7 the believer is the source.

J.T. That is the thought. I was thinking of Eden, it is a tropical suggestion. The tropics of course are remarkable as to the effect of the warmth on the human body and mind; so that after God set up Eden Adam is to look after it, and He would come into it in the cool of the day. It is a tropical allusion. It says He was heard walking: "And they heard the voice of Jehovah Elohim, walking in the garden in the cool of the day", Genesis 3:8.

Does it refer to the happiness or blessedness of God that He found in a scene like that? Why should His voice be connected with walking? But alas! there was no Adam or Eve ready to meet Him; they hid themselves. Still, we have the suggestion of what Eden was: it was the source; the river went out of Eden, the word meaning the place of delights. The river went out of that situation into the garden and then it was parted and became four main streams or heads, meaning that there is intelligence typically in the movement of those rivers.

E.P. Is that idea of intelligence worked out in the Acts, Peter bringing in Cornelius, then Antioch and Philippi?

J.T. That is the idea. You cannot but be impressed by the spirit of control in the book of Acts; so many persons operating and yet the spirit of control is there.

E.P. Does the glory of Christ synchronise with this great movement of the Spirit here in John 7?

J.T. That is the thought, the glorified Christ and the rivers flowing out: "He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified" John 7:38,39. That is, out of the inward parts should flow rivers of living water, out of one person. Who is that person? A believer in Christ. What a person he is! A characteristic believer; it is a progressive thought.

C.A.M. Our heads control really; this looks on to the headship of Christ.

J.T. That is the force of the word; they parted and became four heads or main streams.

E.P. Headship is not simply a title; there is flow from it.

J.T. It involves functioning in the way of control. As soon as your head gives out, the body is out of control. Things are to function from heaven in christianity, that is what you get in the book of the Acts.

J.T.Jr. Is "the head of the ... assembly" Colossians 1:18 an administrative thought?

J.T. Quite so. It is organic also; many inscrutable things which originate in the head take place all the time in our bodies.

J.R.H. Would this matter of remembrance have an important part in our activity?

J.T. Yes indeed! How poor we should be unless there were the power to recall by association! One thing helps you to remember another thing. Chapter 12 shows that the glorification of Christ helps us in our memories; we shall see more about that in chapter 14 but it is touched on here. You remember that these things were written of Christ: "Now his disciples knew not these things at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things to him" (chapter 12:16).

You stand up to give an address, you have in mind the general outline, but then there is the power of association, of memory, the Holy Spirit helps you. What a wonderful field there is in Scripture! You need to scan the field. Well, the Holy Spirit helps you thus to glorify Christ, that is the supreme thought; the whole field is in the mind of the Spirit and He will bring things into your soul as you need them.

J.R.H. I was wondering if remembrance is to promote the feature of holiness with us? It is connected with what He says of the temple of His body, and then there is the feature of remembrance connected with spirituality.

J.T. Quite so; the glorification of Christ connected with your memory opens up a wide field; it is well worth looking into and using. The scripture opens up, the Holy Spirit operates on your memory and brings things back to you. The scriptures quoted in this passage from Psalm 118 and the prophet Zechariah had been read in Israel for hundreds of years: "Fear not, daughter of Zion: behold thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt" John 12:15; and the one in verse 13. In the glorification of Christ these two scriptures are brought back to memory. For this section of glory in chapter 12 I need such light, such power as that to bring back to my memory what belongs to this sphere of glory.

E.P. It says of Israel, "When Moses is read, the veil lies upon their heart. But when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil is taken away", 2 Corinthians 3:15,16.

J.T. That will be a wonderful time for Israel! They are reading the Scriptures every sabbath, but what good are they to them? When Israel turns to the Lord the veil is taken away. When they do, Israel's intelligence will be opened up. They will not have the same intelligence as we have today, but they will have great intelligence.

J.W.D. I was thinking about your allusion to Romans, "the renewing of your mind" Romans 12:2, and then "the eyes of your heart" Ephesians 1:18 in Ephesians, whether that does not link on with the thought of remembrance? Some of us are getting older, our natural forces are abating.

J.T. We all know how much it affects us and it is one thing we should keep before us. One of the most important things for a brother to keep before him is that his mind should be clear. As he gets older it is apt to become very dull, which is a great disadvantage.

A.R. Spiritual persons are not taxing their minds in regard to the work, they are taxing a divine Person.

J.T. That is right. We shall see more about that in chapters 14 and 15.

Returning to the rivers and what "the scripture has said": this is a simple statement and I believe directs us to Genesis 2 and 3, showing first the source of the river, where it flowed out, and then how headship entered into it; how as flowing it surrounded the territory. You get good things there, "the gold of that land is good". It brings up a whole realm of thought as to what is good; "bdellium and the onyx stone are there", Genesis 2:12. It involves riches and the refinement that goes with riches.

C.A.M. When a person's memory is being helped of the Spirit he relies on spiritual suggestions.

J.T. One great effect of a river is influence. If you are influenced in your mind, well then there is the thought; then come words and then sentences. These are all sub-divisional to the whole matter, but influence is the great thing. Take the Euphrates, think of what influence there is in that great river!

J.S.T. You have a suggestion of it in Paul's ministry as to "holding fast the head" Colossians 2:19; and then would his epistles to the Ephesians and Colossians be like surrounding "the whole land of Havilah", reaching out, so that "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water"? John 7:38.

J.T. Quite so; it is "holding fast the head". It is a glorified Christ we begin with and the Holy Spirit down here. The idea of headship keeps us in balance, so that the new man is "renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him"; that is a remarkable statement, "into full knowledge", Colossians 3:10.

A.B. Is that why in chapter 7 the cry is, "let him come to me and drink" before you have the rivers of water flowing out?

J.T. Quite so; that gives you headship. But then, this Man is glorified, and "This he said concerning the Spirit".

He is going around the thing, the whole matter of the Spirit is conveyed. You must have a glorified Christ to get the full power of it; the full outflowing of the river universally is from heaven.

C.A.M. The idea of influence helps; the word 'influence' and the fact that it is a river and has banks seems to take care of this matter of balance.

J.T. It is the idea of headship organically; you do not see anyone asserting himself; everything is balanced. The very fact of the river flowing indicates there is something behind it.

S.R.McC. Peter standing up in Acts with the others is not asserting himself Acts 2:14. "Peter, standing up with the eleven", quotes the scripture in Joel.

J.T. Look at these eleven men standing behind Peter! Is Peter eclipsing these men? No, he is not; these men have a gift too, every one of them, and when Peter finishes speaking the convicted people speak to these eleven men. Why did they do that? They saw it was one idea, that these men were all of the same kind. That is the idea of christianity, we are to help each other and stand in relation to one another. It is not one man's understanding, it is an organism that is in mind.

J.S. T. The Lord in speaking to His disciples says, "Ye will receive power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you" Acts 1:8. Would that be seen in Peter standing up with the eleven? Was it the evidence of His power so that you would get to what was behind the apostles?

J.T. There is something behind those men. They were all to receive power from on high. The convicted soul sees that these men are all of a kind.

Ques. Are we deficient in appreciation of the glories of Christ? In Corinth it would appear that spiritual persons were not functioning. I was wondering whether the glories of Christ were not being maintained.

J.T. They were not. The first thing Paul rebuked in Corinth was the divisions. The divided state amongst them would preclude the idea of rivers flowing out. These eleven stand up with Peter; they are like him; the Lord had brought them together. He called whom He Himself would that they might be with Him, that He might send them forth. It is a united thought and I think the idea of a river must have been behind it, the thought of headship.

A.H.P. Is the same thought in 1 Corinthians 12? Great prominence is given there to the Spirit.

J.T. Quite so: "For also in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body, ... and have all been given to drink of one Spirit", 1 Corinthians 12:13.

A.H.P. Would chapter 14 show that it is flowing out in the ministry meeting?

J.T. Quite so.

J.W.D. I was going to suggest that these eleven apostles that stood behind Peter would be well content to be there, feeling they were organically of the same thing.

J.T. It is remarkable how you get them together throughout the chapters of the Acts. The converts persevered in the doctrine and fellowship of "the apostles" Acts 2:42, not 'of the apostle Peter', but "the apostles". Then in Solomon's porch there they were, the apostles; you get them together, and there was the great power of the apostles' witness, and so forth. It is one idea in twelve men to bring out the administrative thought in love. That is why a meeting like this is so important; the brethren coming together, we learn together. It is the divine way that the glorification of Christ, the Spirit being connected with that fact here, unifies our thoughts. We have a wider outlook, and we are all brought into it; not to signalise any person but to bring out the dispensation and what is in it.

Ques. Paul says we have the mind of Christ; does that enter into it?

J.T. It does; it is the power or faculty of thinking. It is not gift exactly, it is what is normal to christianity, the mind of Christ, the power of thinking as He does.

S.J.H. Would you make much of the fact that it is living water? Is not that a test, in that there is the touch of headship about it?

J.T. That is another good point; that is why I thought we might connect it with chapter 4 which brings out the quality of the water; it is living. In chapter 4 it is a question of the state of the believer; chapter 7 is more dispensational, hence the cry. Chapter 4 is to bring out the state of the believer as it comes into evidence, so that the Lord sat just as He was on the well, and this woman comes to draw water, and the conversation brings out the state she was in. So chapter 4 is on a lower level, dealing with state, and how inwardly through the ministry of Christ we can make room for this matter of springing up in chapter 4 and flowing out in chapter 7.

Ques. Is chapter 4 more the Romans side?

J.T. That is right, and chapter 7 is Ephesians. Chapter 4 is what is given to you and chapter 7 is what you receive: "But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive" (verse 39).

A.A.T. Chapter 4 requires asking.

J.T. That is the thought. "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him" (chapter 4:10). A need arises in her soul, because the Lord's remarks lead her to say, Give it to me. It is a question of your need and you value the thing; it springs up into everlasting life. That is deliverance; I cannot be a vessel here unless I am delivered. Chapter

7 is the other side of the matter, the heavenly thing; it is what flows down through Him universally.

N.B. "For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives not the Spirit by measure", John 3:34.

J.T. That is the general character of the giving dispensationally. Now the Holy Spirit is here in an absolute way, not partially. Of course He does not give the Holy Spirit to any one of us in that way; no creature could receive the Spirit in absoluteness. It comes out there in relation to Christ; the Lord Himself received the Spirit in completeness. It came in bodily form upon Him, and the same is true of the assembly.

A.R. This woman in John 4 was very fickle, she had five husbands.

J.T. Quite so, but she is brought into headship in principle. She has only one Man before her now; that makes way for what we were speaking of in chapter 7.

Ques. Would you define for us what the springing up and flowing out are?

J.T. Springing up is an allusion to the organs that are automatic. Many things happen in our bodies that do not refer to the head; they act of themselves. Our bodies are so constituted that they act of themselves, the organs act of themselves. Springing up is not to heaven, it is into everlasting life; it is deliverance, another order of things, an out of the world order of things. The Spirit in the believer operates on him as he judges himself according to Romans, and he is delivered; it is an upward trend, it is up into everlasting life. That I would take to be deliverance: it "shall become in him a fountain ...". There are two words used for 'well': one is 'fountain' in verse 14, "But the water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water"; that is, it takes charge of the believer and functions

in the automatic organs, so to speak, so that it operates of itself; it is not headship but it makes way for headship. Chapter 7 involves headship.

J.W.D. Why do you think this process of deliverance in John 4 takes so long a time with us? Here it is connected with the power of a divine Person.

J.T. That is a good question for each to ask himself. The woman said to Him in verse 15, "Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst nor come here to draw" John 4:15. That is a selfish way of speaking, therefore the state of the person must be disclosed. That means a long history, you know; it is the length of the history and the variety of it and how much we have forgotten in such a history as this. All that has to be gone through; the process of self-judgment is a life process. As a matter of fact a man never ceases to be normally a repenting sinner; it is the length of the thing, how much has been forgotten and how much has to be brought to our attention by the Spirit of God. Think of a history like this: five husbands, and now one not a husband! The others were apparently legal in some sense, they were actually husbands.

A.R. Some might say, Why go back so far?

J.T. That is the point. It is hesitancy to go back so far that prevents this spring within, this matter of deliverance. She had to come into that: "If thou knewest the gift of God", One taking such a low place and yet divine. But then the other thing is this matter of five husbands; evidently they were legal in some sense; there must have been some sort of ceremony connected with them. This means how much had been forgotten, but not in heaven, and I have to come back to that.

C.A.M. She loves talking of the well of Jacob.

J.T. The well was deep; the well of corruption in her soul is deep and she has to bottom it.

J.T.Jr. I suppose in an outward way she claimed a religious position, in connection with the well that belonged to Jacob.

J.T. How much such people can say! She is setting herself up in a religious way: "Our father Jacob", she says. Well, think of what she has to go through to get right!

S.J.H. What is the lack? It seems to be a lack of conscience.

J.T. There is at first, she has no conscience at all. It is when the Lord says to her, "Thou hast had five husbands", that she says to Him, "Sir, I see that thou art a prophet" John 4:18,19. That is the beginning of her spiritual history. What did she see before? She thought she knew something about the mountain and Jacob, she could talk quite well; you would never think she was what she was, but the Lord would see what she was at the bottom. He touches the well of corruption and He says these words to her, and she says, "Sir, I see that thou art a prophet". She is worth speaking to; the Lord does not hesitate to talk to her about worship. We often wonder why it is, but it is perfectly clear she saw He was a prophet. The prophetic word is the point.

Ques. Is the meeting for prophetic ministry designed to help us in our souls?

J.T. It is certainly intended to bring out all these historical things that have not been settled; they have all to come to light, that is what the prophetic word is for. We cannot bring everything into the assembly or it would be full of judicial matters all the time; the Lord makes provision for minor matters between saint and saint. Some matters have to be brought to the court of the tabernacle. This woman's case requires full investigation. How can she say, I have settled this matter? She could not say it. Yet the Lord does not go into the matter

publicly. She says, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done", John 4:29.

J.S.T. Does availing ourselves of the Holy Spirit as in Acts 2:17 -- the pouring out upon our sons and daughters and then the prophesying -- help us as individuals?

J.T. See what a time we should have! So much prophesying -- the past would be exposed and a great clearance effected, so that the Holy Spirit would have scope to spring up.

J.J. It is not a question of having her moral defects drawn attention to, but of her seeing the glory of Christ.

J.T. It is both, you know; because the point she makes when she went back to the men was, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done" John 4:29. He said very little to her but His words searched her; that is the secret of her power in testimony. She admits she had been exposed to herself. Now one Man controls her instead of these others; she left her water-pot and went back into the city, she was a vessel, and carried in principle the living water to the men. "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?".

J.R.H. Would not this idea of abundance set aside the thought of labour and toil?

J.T. It makes way for the sabbath; there was to be no servile work on the sabbath. It is the liberty that we have inwardly springing up into everlasting life.

A.H.P. You referred last night to Psalm 51I wondered whether David in his soul history with God was brought into line with what the Lord did with this woman? He says, "Behold, thou wilt have truth in the inward parts" Psalm 51:6.

J.T. Christ's inward parts, in infinite holiness, were laid out before Jehovah in the sacrifices. In John 4 the inward parts in the believer are exposed

to be dealt with, and then instead of corruption you have living water springing up into everlasting life.

A.R. In 1 Corinthians 14 it says of an unbeliever, "He is convicted of all, he is judged of all; the secrets of his heart are manifested; and thus, falling upon his face, he will do homage to God" 1 Corinthians 14:24,25.

J.T. Not only does he judge himself but everybody sees it, all judge him. You want to join in with the person that is repentant. Everybody judges it, the whole matter is clear, and that man is fit for fellowship at once. They all see the man is repentant, they all come to his judgment of himself.

J.R.H. So in chapters 4 and 9 the recognition of the prophet comes in and makes room for worship in both chapters.

J.T. It is very remarkable that Peter should say so much about prophesying in Acts 2:17,18. A sister bringing something to your conscience convicts you. Your sons and your daughters, your bondmen and bondwomen shall prophesy. It is a question of bringing in conviction, the mind of God towards us with regard to the state we are in. Everyone needs this.

What a holy, pure state of things there must have been in that house of Philip when Paul went there with his company, and Agabus came down and taking Paul's girdle, prophesied! There were four women there, four daughters of the evangelist, who prophesied. We are not told they did it then, but what a state would be in that house! The whole matter was clear as noon-day as to what would happen to Paul in Jerusalem; the condition in the house admitted of it. Paul did not say a word, he was not affected by it; it shows how the most spiritual of us needs that sort of thing.

E.P. Do both chapter 4 and 7 of John converge on chapter 12, in the thought of Jerusalem? I was wondering whether the woman calls attention to

Christ in chapter 4: "Come, see a man" John 4:29; and then in chapter 7 attention is called to the realm of the Spirit. Jerusalem would be the whole sphere of it, would it not?

J.T. The whole great domain of glory! "Lift up your heads, ye gates, and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in", Psalm 24:7. In chapter 12 the brethren are ready for that by the glorification of Christ; that is the end of things; Jerusalem is the great centre of glory.

THE GLORY OF CHRIST (4)

John 16:13,14 John 15:26,27; John 14:26; John 13:31,32

J.T. In our subject we have before us the Spirit here in the living water consequent on the glorification of Christ. Our instruction should show us the effect of the Spirit as glorifying Christ. He is here because Christ is glorified, but as here He glorifies Christ, according to our first scripture; so that we have before us a range of truth that includes Paul's doctrine. In the second scripture read the Lord said He would send the Comforter from the Father: "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, he shall bear witness concerning me"; and then He says, "and ye too bear witness, because ye are with me from the beginning" (chapter 15:26,27). That is, He distinguishes between the Spirit's own testimony and the testimony of the twelve; the former would include what was subsequent to the testimony of the twelve, as in Paul's ministry. Then in the third scripture read we have what would fit in in the last days, that is, when the things of Christ are either beclouded or forgotten. He says, "but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you" (chapter 14:26). That would be another ministry of the Spirit whereby He would glorify Christ -- to bring things forgotten, beclouded, or distorted back to their original form, back to the remembrance of the saints. Fourthly we have the glorification of Christ in a moral way as Judas went out: "When therefore he was gone out Jesus says, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God be glorified in him, God also shall glorify him in himself, and shall glorify him immediately" (chapter 13:31,32).

This is the most touching perhaps of all, because it alludes to the actual death of Christ brought about by the betrayal of Judas.

A.R. Do you have something special in your mind in commencing with chapter 16 and going back?

J.T. It opens up a wide field of truth, as I said. "But when he is come", the Lord says, "the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming. He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine and shall announce it to you" (chapter 16:13,14). The chapter contemplates the Lord's rejection, and the rejection of the saints too, because He says, "They shall put you out of the synagogues; but the hour is coming that every one who kills you will think to render service to God" John 16:2. And then He says, "But I did not say these things unto you from the beginning, because I was with you. But now I go to him that has sent me, and none of you demands of me, Where goest thou? But because I have spoken these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. But I say the truth to you, It is profitable for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go I will send him to you" John 16:4 - 7. That is the position in this chapter and it is very marked; it is the position we occupy only on the militant side, the public militant side; and the Spirit being here glorifies Christ in unfolding all the truth, guiding us into all the truth as receiving of Christ, showing it to us and glorifying Christ in that way.

J.W.D. Is He regarded in this passage as indwelling the saints? He hears -- is it through the faculties of the saints, or something outside of the saints? It says here, "But whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak".

Would that be as indwelling, and hearing through our spiritual faculties?

J.T. It is not through our faculties, for He is here as a divine Person, but in such lowliness! He has ears and hears what He is going to say. It is a very touching matter that He is so lowly, that He hears what He is going to say. I should not like to say that He hears through our faculties, because He has faculties of His own through which He hears.

C.A.M. In Romans 8 it would appear that the Holy Spirit hears from heaven as well as being aware of what goes on in our own feelings.

J.T. Yes; He brings in what He hears so as to use us to announce the things. The announcement, I should say, would be through Paul, through chosen persons. The word 'announce' is formal; it is said in the note to verse 13, 'The Greek has the sense of "reporting", "bringing back a report"'. Here it is a message brought from another, as Acts 20:20,27. The Spirit receives and hears. He receives what He says, He hears and announces it. The announcement would be through the faculties of the person employed, such as Paul; but if He heard with Paul's ears, then Paul would be the direct source of supply himself. It is, I think, the Spirit in His own inscrutable way in the assembly here, individually and personally and freely, and in direct communication with heaven.

S.P. Would the faculties link with the word 'guide' -- "shall guide you"?

J.T. Yes; that is through one another as at a meeting like this. What we may say to each other may be used of the Holy Spirit to guide us into a particular phase of the truth; not teaching, but guiding, so that we do not go astray in our minds.

Ques. Is there any connection with what the Spirit says to the churches? "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies", Revelation 2:17.

J.T. There we are to hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. That would be also through ministry, that you hear what He says. But then, the point is how the Spirit hears according to this chapter. Does He hear through our hearing faculties? There is no reason why that should be, because He is a divine Person, and He has means of hearing. The Lord Himself when here heard from the Father; correspondingly the Father hears; and so I would say the Spirit is here, a divine Person, but taking a lowly place, the place of hearing; and as hearing He uses vessels in announcing things. It is more than saying, it is announcing.

W.L. Would you say that He is the present link between the ascended Lord and the assembly?

J.T. That is true, of course; it involves the organism. But still, there is the fact that a divine Person is here below. "But I say the truth to you, It is profitable for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go I will send him to you. And having come, he will bring demonstration to the world, of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe on me; of righteousness, because I go away to my Father, and ye behold me no longer; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say to you, but ye cannot bear them now. But when he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming" John 16:7 - 13.

E.P. Is the position here somewhat like that before Jericho, the man with the drawn sword in his hand? The demonstration to the world just preceding

Jericho being taken? Is that the position of the Spirit in chapter 16?

J.T. Quite so; it is a militant position. The appearance of the man with the drawn sword glorifies the position. He comes in at a certain time and says, "As captain of the army of Jehovah am I now come", Joshua 5:14. The Lord says here, "But I have spoken these things to you, that when their hour shall have come, ye may remember them, that I have said them unto you. But I did not say these things unto you from the beginning, because I was with you" John 16:4. But now a particular time has come at which a certain thing is brought in; so that corresponds in that sense with the man with the drawn sword -- "am I now come", -- at this particular time, the time for that demonstration.

E.P. I was wondering whether the Lord had in His mind the importance the Spirit of truth would assume in our minds in relation to this great matter?

J.T. I think there is a marked correspondence, because this chapter is militant; it contemplates suffering. There is a time for it; they were not equal to it before, nor was it necessary because the Lord was with them. Now He is no longer going to be with them, "But now I go to him that has sent me" John 16:5. The Holy Spirit would be here in a militant way and would bring in demonstration; it is not only that He says certain things about the world, sin and Satan, but they are demonstrated, the things are set out. At Pentecost the Holy Spirit began to bring out in a demonstrative way that the Lord Jesus was right and the Jews were wrong. It is the Jewish world that is in mind. That was the issue at the cross: if He trusted Jehovah, they said, let Elias come and take Him down. The issue was whether Christ was right or the Jews, and the coming in of the Holy Spirit would bring out publicly that the Lord Jesus was right. "And having come, he will bring demonstration to the world, of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe on me; of righteousness, because I go away to my Father, and ye behold me no longer; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged" John 16:8 - 11.

These things would come out in a palpable way in the ministry of the Spirit beginning at Pentecost, that Christ was right, the Man whom the Jews rejected is with the Father. That is righteousness; not only has God done it because of His relationship with Him as Son, but because of righteousness. That was the issue, Christ was right and the world wrong.

A.B. "Has been justified in the Spirit", 1 Timothy 3:16.

J.T. That is what is meant: "God has been manifested in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit".

J.S.T. Do you get it carried forward with Paul in 1 Corinthians? "Not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" 1 Corinthians 2:4.

J.T. That is it. "But when he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming. He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine and shall announce it to you" (verses 13,14); "shall announce it to you", not simply telling us. Mary "told the disciples" in chapter 20 John 20:18; it is a similar thought, only there the word 'announce' is not used. It would hardly be suitable for a sister to take that position of announcing as a special messenger; although she was that. But the Holy Spirit has a unique place, He announces: "He will announce to you what is coming", and "He shall receive of mine and shall announce it to you". So that the things are kept before us, the coming of the

Lord and all that is coming. It is a striking word as arresting attention as to these matters.

J.T.Jr. In the Acts numbers are converted; on the other hand there are the Sadducees and chief priests who are distressed by the preaching; but large numbers are being converted, and the Spirit is guiding.

J.T. I think that helps. The first day of the preaching brought in such results, and the leaders of the Jews took account of it in that way; they were being judged. Demonstration was being brought in in regard of sin, righteousness and judgment. The whole world was exposed because of what was happening.

C.A.M. That this evil power is still allowed to work would magnify the greatness of God.

J.T. It does; it brings out what the Spirit is as here, what He does. We have already dwelt on the glorification of Christ as affording the Spirit to us, but now the Spirit is here glorifying Christ. It is not Christ glorified as the Father glorifies Him, and puts Him down at His right hand; the Father does that, but the Spirit glorifies Him here in exposing and contesting an issue in favour of Christ.

J.W.D. "He shall receive of mine", that is, the heavenly things that are in His hand as the glorified Man. In chapter 13:3 it says, "Jesus, knowing that the Father had given him all things into his hands, and that he came out from God and was going to God ...", John 13:3.

J.T. It is what can definitely be called Christ's things. The Spirit brings them out to us. The servant of Abraham spoke about Abraham himself, but then he spoke about Isaac too, which would be to affect Rebecca peculiarly. The Spirit has great pleasure in endearing Christ to us and magnifying Him in our eyes, so that we can love Him better.

A.B. He calls them both 'master', Abraham and Isaac too.

J.T. Abraham merged in Isaac's mastership. The last word about 'master' is when Rebecca says, "Who is the man that is walking in the fields to meet us? And the servant said, That is my master!" Genesis 24:65. He does not say, My master's son.

J.W.D. Paul speaks of announcing amongst the nations "the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ", Ephesians 3:8.

J.T. Quite so. It is a remarkable thing that you get verses in Scripture, particularly in John's writings and also in Paul's, that convey without formality the deity of Christ. Who else but a divine Person could be spoken of in that way? In John's writings, especially the first epistle, sometimes the pronouns may refer either to the Father or the Son. The Holy Spirit keeps the deity of Christ before us, taking of His things and showing them to us. The servant of Abraham spoke about his master Abraham, but then he speaks about Isaac by himself; the last word as to mastership is Isaac's, so that the assembly has the full thought of how Christ is regarded above. The nearer you get to heaven, the more you see what a place He has up there.

Ques. Does the Song of Songs fill this out? "My beloved is mine, and I am his" Song of Songs 2:16. The Spirit would operate in the saints peculiarly after the Supper.

J.T. Quite so. The whole of the book is between the bride and the bridegroom. There is only one allusion to Jehovah, the word Jah; it is the only allusion in the book. That brings out what we are saying, that under certain circumstances the deity of Christ shines out, not simply in an abstract sense, but because of what He is. Certain things have come out in Him personally.

J.S.T. "And his desire is toward me", Song of Songs 7:10. The Spirit would carry that to us.

J.T. He would. The Holy Spirit should have great pleasure in the service of God in that way. We begin with the fact that the Spirit is always with us, "For he abides with you, and shall be in you", the Spirit of truth. Now when we come together in assembly at the Lord's supper you can understand how the Spirit has the Lord exclusively in His mind. He is stressing the dominance of Christ, and proceeds until we come to the new covenant, and then to the marital side. The Spirit is peculiarly at home in all that; it is Genesis 24 when you rise to that level, "That is my master!" Genesis 24:65. The Spirit makes everything of Christ, makes Him lovable to us, admirable to us, and brings things forward to affect us so that marital feelings arise. The Canticles are particularly intended for that part of the service.

J.R.H. It is very affecting that He only speaks what He hears, and announces what He receives.

J.T. He brings in here what is going on in heaven; that is the point, what is going on in heaven; heaven is not sitting dormant, it is always aglow. Think of Christ as Man up there in that way, the history that is made there every day!

E.P. Do you get that suggestion in Luke's gospel, "a multitude of the heavenly host" Luke 2:13, and the announcement to Mary and Elizabeth?

J.T. Luke especially brings that side in: "A multitude of the heavenly host, praising God and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace", Luke 2:13,14. Later the scene is changed and the multitude says, "Peace in heaven, and glory in the highest", Luke 19:38. That is what is going on up there.

A.A.T. The Spirit is bringing down at the present time what is going on in heaven. Is that through prophetic ministry?

J.T. Well, it is more than that. It is seasonal too, the months of the year denote variety of fruit; that is brought in here, every month has its own fruit, so that there are seasons of enjoyment as well as the prophetic ministry. Prophetic ministry contemplates the moral side of the position down here; but then there is that which delights Him, what is going on up there; there is always joy in heaven, peace and glory in the highest; from the time the Lord Jesus went in, there has been that wonderful occupation, and the Holy Spirit brings all that down here. There is wonderful mutuality there between divine Persons. The Lord would say, I will send the Spirit too as having been with the Father; that is, He has got first-hand knowledge of everything, of the Father's thoughts, He comes down "from with the Father"; it is a peculiar translation, but this is how it reads: "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, he shall bear witness concerning me" (chapter 15:26). He is from with the Father and knows all the Father's thoughts. He would know them as a divine Person, but as a servant He has been with the Father, and knows exactly what the Father's thoughts about the Son are. The Son has already gone up there before the Spirit is sent down. The Lord says, I send Him from with the Father, and when He is come "he shall bear witness concerning me; and ye too bear witness, because ye are with me from the beginning", John 15:26,27. He is with the Father up there and He will bring down a true report of what is up there.

C.A.M. The book of Revelation was given since the Lord was here on earth. That is one thing He has brought to pass.

J.T. It is said of the Apocalypse, "Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place", Revelation 1:1.

That was something additional that the Lord received from the Father there in regard to coming events; but these communications refer to how Christ is regarded up there, so as to form the affections of the assembly that the proper affections for such a Person should be promoted.

E.P. Would the carrying of the ark around Jericho imply that there is a corresponding movement on earth to what is in heaven?

J.T. Quite so. It is carried around Jericho, that is a militant thought; still it is the Kohathites carrying the ark. Actually in the antitype it means how we appreciate Christ. They are called priests there; when they get into Canaan they are promoted, they are called priests.

J.W.D. Would you limit the thought of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to our being in the wilderness, or does it go beyond it?

J.T. The word implies, as you know, One who will take care of everything for us in the absence of Christ. That is what is contemplated in the word 'Comforter'. The Lord is no longer with us: it is another Comforter; but He is the same Person when He takes us into the land. He is with us still; He takes the form of the Spirit of adoption and the Spirit of Christ. The general thought of 'Comforter' is that He is here while Christ is there.

J.S.T. Do you get a suggestion of "from with" in Abraham speaking to Isaac, saying, "My son"; and then in the son speaking to his father and saying, "My father"? Genesis 22:7,8. These feelings and affections are brought down to us in the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Quite so. How do we know what goes on up there except by the Spirit? We get impressions from the Spirit.

J.R.H. It is "all the truth".

J.T. Quite so. The article is before it. This is one of the most important phases of the truth we can

be occupied with, how the Holy Spirit brings down from heaven all the light and truth, and what feelings exist up there too; how Christ is regarded, because to get a true estimate of Christ you must go to the Father. He has taken pains to tell us what He thinks of Christ; when Christ was here He opened the heavens and told us what He thought about Him, and now He is up there and the Holy Spirit proceeds from with the Father, sent by the Lord. He comes down here to bring knowledge of what the Father thinks of Christ. We shall never get a full estimate of Christ except as we get it from the Father. What does He think of Him in all the wonderful environment of glory up there?

J.W.D. I suppose the highest feature in our worship would be to apprehend the Father's appreciation of Christ, and then to enter into the Son's appreciation of the Father and His thoughts of the Father. Is that not greater than our appreciation of Christ and of the Father?

J.T. Chapters 13, 14 and 15 unfold to us what Christ thinks of the Father. He is extending His remarks far beyond what you get in the synoptic gospels at the same period. He wants the disciples to have a true thought of the Father. According to these two verses in the end of chapter 15, He sends the Holy Spirit out "from with the Father", not simply to tell us about the Father, but He says, I am sending Him out that He might bear witness of Me.

C.A.M. In connection with our church music and the hymns, it would not be too much to say that what the Spirit brings among us is a present note in heaven.

J.T. I think so. The assembly is the reflex of heaven. What is going on up there is brought down here.

A.B. How does this bear upon, "All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son but the Father", Matthew 11:27?

J.T. It is all the more reason why we should pay attention to the Spirit as He is taking up these things and showing them to us. The Spirit glorifies Him in our eyes. There is no formal revelation of the Son, it is negative in the scripture: "No one knows the Son but the Father", Matthew 11:27. There is not a word said about the revelation of the Son; the Father knows, but wonderful things come in by the Spirit, for the Spirit knows because He is with the Father. What thoughts there are! They are inscrutable but still you get inklings of Christ, of His deity, by the Person of the Holy Spirit. Throughout John's epistles you can hardly tell at times to whom the references refer, whether to the Father or the Son. Antichrist denies both, because it is Deity in that wonderful way, in the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit knows everything as coming from the Father. What inklings we get from Him!

E.P. Not being made a subject of revelation, is it something very intimate?

J.T. Well, it is who the Persons are. If you could see as John speaks of it "(we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father)" John 1:14, what inklings you would get in looking at Them in their relation to One Another! The Holy Spirit knows all that, because Christ was exalted before He came down. Abimelech says to Isaac, You told me your wife was your sister, but I see by your relations that she must be something more (Genesis 26). The Spirit sees everything of Christ divinely, but He has taken the place of servant and hears, and what He hears He speaks. He comes out from the Father, and knows the relations, the feelings and affections that are there; He conveys inklings of all that the names Father and Son imply.

J.R.H. Chapter 1, verse 14 says "(we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father)", John 1:14.

J.T. That is what they saw, but here it is "from with"; only the Holy Spirit could see that, because He was in heaven; the apostles were down here. "From with" means He has come from that place or state.

J.W. Would there be a link in the apostle Paul's prayer in Ephesians 3? "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father ... that he may give you ... to be strengthened with power by his Spirit". Ephesians 3:14 - 16.

J.T. Very good. Profound exercise is meant in that, but it is to the Father in regard of the testimony.

A.A.T. Paul speaks of the Father in Colossians 1.

J.T. The epistles of Paul are all covered in what is said here, that "he receives of mine and shall announce it to you" John 16:15. It involves the mystery, the whole range of Paul's doctrine, as over against what the twelve had.

A.R. I suppose in the main in our assembly service there is a great tendency to refer to the Lord as He was here, and very little as to what He is up there.

J.T. That is just the point, what He is up there.

J.T.Jr. In the book of Revelation, John "became in the Spirit on the Lord's day" Revelation 1:10, and he sees One sitting on a throne.

J.T. What he sees is in relation to the book of Revelation, but the Spirit brings down through Paul's ministry the mystery, what exists between Christ and the assembly organically, and so enlarges on Christ; the Spirit has come down from the Father and He tells the saints who form the assembly what the Father thinks about Christ. You must have all the greatness of Christ for assembly relations; only the assembly is capable of taking that in -- what Christ is. We are told "a woman shall encompass a man", Jeremiah 31:22. There can be no doubt there is the

idea of the assembly encompassing Christ, not in the inscrutableness of His deity, but according to all that is revealed and made known of Deity, and the Holy Spirit is here that we might encompass Him and have affections suitable for such a Person.

J.W. I suppose in the setting in which He says, "I sanctify myself" John 17:19

J.T. He will convey to us in some sense what the Father thinks of Christ, the great Person He is, and that draws out the assembly's affections. The Holy Spirit keeps that constantly before us. The Father alone has a right estimate of Christ. The Holy Spirit is capable of conveying the Father's thoughts and He is down here doing it all the time "He shall glorify me".

C.A.M. In the expression of the woman encompassing a man, you are showing that what was true of Israel in an earthly way, we can regard as the same idea glorified in connection with the assembly?

J.T. I think so. Let the Holy Spirit make Him what He will, and He leaves nothing out of the glories of Christ The assembly is able to take that in. It is wonderful that it is to be understood, that we are to see what is going to be eternally, the thought of a bride coming down adorned for her husband, suitable to Him, able to reciprocate His affections and His intelligence as well. The Holy Spirit impresses us with the glory of Christ. The Lord says He announces what He sees, and what He hears He speaks "He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine and shall announce it to you" (chapter 16:14). That is not formation; formation is another form of the Spirit's service. 'Announce' means something presented, an objective thing to you, to your intelligence. It may happen in a meeting like this; I hope it is so. The Spirit of God is presenting to us something of the greatness of Christ according to heaven's estimate of it; not according to an estimate

that I might form from the gospels, but according to heaven's estimate of it. That is the true estimate of it. Of course the Father gave a true estimate of Christ down here, but it is the glorified Christ who is the climax of everything. We are to be like the glorified Christ, and the Holy Spirit is here to present these things to us that we might receive them into our minds and contemplate them, and as we do we shall be formed accordingly.

C.A.M. Paul's view of Christ was a heavenly one, giving us another status.

J.T. Paul's is a heavenly view of Christ; He is a Man up there. That is the secret of the understanding of the assembly. Abstractly He is God. There is what He was down here, then the forty days, and then what He is up there. That is what the Holy Spirit is occupied with, to present Him as He is up there so that the assembly might be equal to Him in that position, for she is going to be there with Him in heaven eternally.

W.L. Is there a suggestion of limitation here as to what the Spirit receives for the assembly?

J.T. Whatever He receives He lets us know about in the most pronounced terms. The apostle Paul was wonderfully qualified to speak of divine things; what power of communication he had! He was qualified to bring out the greatest things, and they are spoken of distinctly so that they can be understood.

J.T.Jr. In Hebrews we do not have the writer's name, but you see Paul in what is said.

J.T. Quite so. He does not write his name; it is a question of the speaker. The prophets spoke, but in the last days God has spoken to us in Son. The article is left out, it is God Himself speaking in Son; the epistle coming through Paul by the Spirit. Hence the wonderful ability for communicating things! His opposers said, "His presence in the body weak, and his speech naught", 2 Corinthians 10:10. You

can see the devil was seeking to becloud what Paul said.

J.W. I believe he uses the word in Acts 20, "How I held back nothing of what is profitable, so as not to announce it to you" Acts 20:20.

J.T. He uses it twice in that chapter. Acts 20 is the acme of the teaching of the Acts, it is full of love. "For I have not shrunk from announcing to you all the counsel of God" Acts 20:27; whereas in Corinth he was withholding a lot, but not at Ephesus.

N.B. You have been speaking of Him as known as He is in heaven. We have certain thoughts of Christ before the breaking of bread; but after He is made known to us in the breaking of bread sometimes hymns are given out in relation to Christ above, addressing Him as above when He should be known and enjoyed by us in the midst.

J.T. Yes, I am glad you brought that up. It takes the two emblems to bring Him in. The idea of remembrance is attached to them both. It is not in the gospels, but in 1 Corinthians 11 the idea of remembrance is attached to the cup as it is to the bread. You want to bring Him in fully, that is, the mind remembers Him, is recalling Him fully; that is our part, for the remembrance of Him. But then there is His part, when He comes in; He comes in all glorious. He comes in from heaven, and then the speaking to Him is not as above, He is there; it is the Christ that has the assembly that comes in, and the Holy Spirit would occupy us with Him as the heavenly One. All our remarks should bear that in mind, that we are now in the marital position, Christ and the assembly. What a scene is implied in that! In order that the assembly's affections should be stirred we must keep before us what the Holy Spirit brings in; the heavenly Man comes in, not even the Man of the forty days, but it is the Man as above. "For our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens, from which also we await the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour, who shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory", Philippians 3:20.

That is Christ, and we are to be conformed to His image, the image of the heavenly. All that is essential to the church's formation, so that we may be in heaven with Him in suitability to the environment. I believe that ought to enter into what is said after the Lord's supper is over, and scope should be given for reciprocation of marital affections between Him and the assembly, but on a heavenly line.

A.R. Have marital affections any connection with past history of sin?

J.T. She is taken out of Christ, she has no sinful history as in heaven, she is really out of Christ. Adam is the great type, Eve taken out of Adam. Adam and Eve are the great type of Christ and of the assembly as she will be eternally.

A.R. Paul in his ministry to Ephesus goes back to Eve, "concerning Christ and the assembly", Ephesians 5:32.

J.T. Quite so.

C.A.M. Otherwise we could never understand the thought of a woman encompassing a man.

J.T. So that if you have a great Man, you must have a great woman, a woman equal to that place in heavenly glory. We are dealing with matters that belong to the eternal counsels of God.

J.S.T. Jehovah Elohim walked in Eden: now He has secured the man and the woman.

J.T. They are not hiding. The Father's delight is found in Christ and the assembly. These scriptures would suggest that the Holy Spirit is here in relation to a glorified Christ, and He brings in heaven's thoughts about Him, what the Father thinks about Him up there, so that we might gradually be formed to the heavenly ourselves in intelligence as well as affections.

THE GLORY OF CHRIST (5)

John 13:31,32; John 12:37 - 43

J.T. The verses in chapter 13 speak of the moral glory of Christ, which is the phase of our subject that we have scarcely touched on. First, His moral glory, and then God's glorifying Him in Himself on account of this and doing it immediately. Judas going out becomes the occasion of these remarks of the Lord; the allusion would be to Judas' betrayal of Him: "Jesus therefore says to him, What thou doest, do quickly", John 13:27. Judas' betrayal of Him would occasion His being delivered into the hands of His enemies, and consequently His crucifixion, so that it is the glory of the Son of man that is in mind. He is glorified morally in His death. It was ignominious of course, suffering in the extreme, but it was all glorious in a moral sense, as seen in a Man.

J.W.D. Do you mean glory in the sense of being an expression of obedience and love?

J.T. That is what I was thinking, the length to which He would go in obedience to God.

C.A.M. Do you regard Judas' going out as giving prominence to the fact that he was going to bring about the sorrows of the Lord and what led to the cross; or was it because of the greatness of His Person that Judas had to go out?

J.T. No doubt the light forced Judas out, but I do not think that is the glory that the Lord had in mind. It was the result of what Judas was going to do. That is a leading fact in the chapter. The devil had put it into his heart already to betray Him: "He that eats bread with me has lifted up his heel against me" John 13:18. And then in verse 21 it says, "Having said these things, Jesus was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, Verily, verily, I say to you, that one of you shall deliver me up". Then the

Lord says in verse 26, "He it is to whom I, after I have dipped the morsel, give it. And having dipped the morsel, he gives it to Judas son of Simon, Iscariote. And, after the morsel, then entered Satan into him", John 13:26. Already he had put the thing into his heart, but now he enters into him. "Jesus therefore says to him, What thou doest, do quickly" John 13:27. So then it says, "When therefore he was gone out Jesus says, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him". That a man should betray Him to His enemies is solemn, but the Son of man is glorified.

J.T.Jr. Do you view Satan as having full control of Judas here?

J.T. Quite so. He entered into him.

J.T.Jr. Does the Lord take the initiative; "What thou doest, do quickly"? John 13:27.

J.T. Satan could not take the initiative in it. The Lord is in control as is always the case.

A.R. Even in the garden of Gethsemane they fell backwards. The Lord has charge of the position.

J.T. Quite so. He delivers up His spirit in this gospel; He does it Himself. That is a great matter to keep in mind. He is in complete dominance in all circumstances although it may not always be in evidence. The Lord's day and the Lord's supper witness to that. However difficult things may be, it is the witness that He is in control.

E.P. How do you view this thought of Judas receiving the morsel? "Having therefore received the morsel, he went out immediately" John 13:30.

J.T. The morsel would be the witness of Christ's unchanging attitude towards him. He was not ruffled by Judas' treachery, He was still Himself. It is what He would have done anyway: the morsel indicated that Judas had the place of fellowship; the Lord is not changing His attitude. It is an important thing, I think, that we should be ourselves in all circumstances. Satan's point is to ruffle and upset

us and take away our balance, and disqualify the whole position. But the dignity of the position stands. No one seemed to know what was happening and yet one of the most momentous things was happening.

A.R. Whatever Satan or his agencies do will always work out for glory, for God is Head.

J.T. From God's side balance is maintained, God is never upset. The book of Revelation indicates the greatest upheavals, but from the divine side the throne stands in the heavens, and the elders are there too. Everything stands from the divine side. Another important matter in relation to the testimony, and concurrent with it, is that sin is being developed and being disclosed. That is one point with God, to let sin show itself: "That sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful" Romans 7:13, so that we might judge it unsparingly. That is in one sense going on in the world, sin is becoming exceeding sinful through certain conditions. It is a great point with God that sin should be manifested and come to the light; the iniquity of the Amorites should come to the full (Genesis 15:16). It is an important thing with God that is should be so.

S.J.H. I think you called attention to the fact that it was not a demon that entered into Judas this time but Satan himself.

J.T. Quite so. He is the son of perdition, he is called that; the man of sin is called that too. They are the only two that are spoken of thus.

Rem. Do you mean sin is manifested to the one in whom it is?

J.T. That is so in regard to Romans 7, that it should be manifested to each of us: "That sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful" Romans 7:13; that is in each of us, God helping us to see its enormity, not covering it up. But then you think of its extent in the world in myriads of beings and in devils too, inclusive of Satan himself. What a thing

it is! And God is controlling it all, and yet letting it develop and show itself according to what it is; and that would be in the man of sin.

D.G. Chapter 6 says, "Have not I chosen you the twelve? and of you one is a devil" John 6:70. Would you say the disciples knew it beforehand, but it is not developed?

J.T. It was not His fault if they did not know it. He did not call Judas by name, and say, He is the devil. It is "one of you"; the point would be they should be searching themselves. The word there is devil, not demon; the same name is used for the devil himself. The Lord did not designate Judas as a devil there, He said, "Have not I chosen you the twelve? and of you one is a devil". Well, who is it then? They all had this time to find out who this man was, but apparently they did not know, showing the want of care and interest in the Lord's remark.

D.G. They were forewarned that the sin was there.

J.T. Yes, "one of you"; the Lord repeats it here, "one of you shall deliver me up", John 13:21.

A.P.T. They began to enquire of themselves at supper: "And being exceedingly grieved they began to say to him, each of them, Is it I, Lord?", Matthew 26:22.

J.T. It is a wholesome thing if anything in the nature of sin happens that each one should challenge himself as to it. Is it I? The Lord could have told them it was Judas from the outset, but He did not because He wanted them to get this experience of judging sin.

F.C. If it had not been Judas do you think it could have been any other of the twelve?

J.T. There is no "if" about it, because Scripture foretold this; "that the scripture might be fulfilled" John 13:18. It could not have been anyone else; he was the designated one in the prophetic word.

S.P. This 'devil' feature was amongst His own.

J.T. That is a solemn fact, and he was a sent one too. The Lord goes on to say in verse 19, "I tell you it now before it happens, that when it happens, ye may believe that I am he" John 13:19. Judas was a sent one, and his testimony was valid although he was a devil. People might say, Look at that man and look at his conduct! They would invalidate the whole position of Christ because he was chosen by Him; but the whole thing is a fallacy, it is not so at all. God may use anyone to do anything, and the thing is right although the man may be wrong.

A.R. Is sin developing in view of the Son of man being glorified?

J.T. I think Judas brings out what was there in man, but in spite of that the Son of man was glorified. It is not the Son of God. In Jeremiah 18:4 the potter was making a certain thing but it was marred; but then he did not stop making on account of that, he makes something else that is not marred. That is the concurrent thing that is perfectly seen in Jesus. Jeremiah 18:4.

J.R.H. The care of the bag would show how much the Lord trusted him.

J.T. Yet John never lets him off; he says, "Because he was a thief and had the bag" John 12:6. John exposes Judas. They think the Lord is telling Judas to do something with the money; that shows how dense they were.

J.W. Peter has a proper estimate of it in Acts 1:16: he speaks there of the Scripture being fulfilled, and of Judas as having had part in the service at that time.

J.T. Yes; Peter shows himself there as a product of the work of Christ. They were greater men after He went to heaven, but in the ten days they are showing there was progress in them from the outset.

Rem. Does that indicate that we should know

things, now that the Lord is glorified, and not be spiritually unable to judge of things?

J.T. We should take account of things that happen, for God indicates certain things before the great result appears. We are not to be taken by surprise when it happens, as He says here, "that when it happens, ye may believe", John 13:19.

A.A.T. We should not expose a brother before he exposes himself. Judas was not exposed by the Lord, he exposed himself.

J.T. Well, quite so; the Lord lets the thing develop, He allows it. The point is that sin is allowed to show itself, "That sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful", Romans 7:13. Every minute that Judas was with Christ made his sin the more sinful.

A.A.T. Does that not apply in our relations with one another, that we are to wait on one another?

J.T. Quite so; you allow the thing to show itself.

Rem. There is an incident like that in regard to David; he says, I know that man Doeg the Edomite. We can have a judgment about a brother but in due time that judgment will come to light by his actions.

J.T. David did not let Doeg pass unnoticed, he could not. This question of sin is a matter of great consequence, in the world and in christianity and in each individual. The climax will be reached in christendom when the Holy Spirit leaves. God allows the sin to work itself out.

J.H. Does the Holy Spirit help in that? Judas passed undetected by the disciples because at that time they had not the Spirit. John exposes Judas, but when he wrote these things he had the Spirit.

J.T. Quite so; his own exercises were seen in it. It is by the Spirit. However, it is remarkable how severe he is on Judas as compared with the others.

J.W.D. What do you understand by "Resist the devil, and he win flee from you", James 4:7?

J.T. I think it is because we are partakers of one Spirit in Christ. There was that in Christ that overcame him: "The ruler of the world comes, and in me he has nothing", John 14:30. Well, he has something in me, but he has not practically if I am in self-judgment. If I stand up against him he flees, because he is already defeated by what is operative in me in the power of the Spirit. He knows God has overcome him. He flees if you resist him.

A.P. It is like Daniel purposing in his heart that he would not eat the king's food (Daniel 1:8).

J.T. Daniel and Joseph are the best models you can get of persons resisting the devil.

J.R.H. Do you mean if Judas had been in a self- judged condition there would have been no room in his heart for this treachery?

J.T. Judas was not animated by hatred of Christ, but by the love of money. That is a sorrowful thing, he was a thief and had the bag.

H.B. Does it not seem strange he went through the test in chapter 6? He did not go away with those who turned away back.

J.T. No, he did not. He was there; he went the full limit of apostleship outwardly, even to the last supper. According to Luke he was with the Lord at the supper; his hand was on the table. He was ready to do anything against Christ; that is what the hand alludes to.

Ques. Would you help us as to the difference between the words 'demon' and 'devil'? The Lord says, "Cast out demons" Matthew 10:8; it is not, Cast out devils.

J.T. Well of course the Authorised Version is somewhat misleading in that. They are two different words. The word 'devil' refers to one who is an opposer, an adversary, so that there is no hope for him, and it is a stronger word. The Lord says to Peter, "Get away behind me, Satan" Matthew 16:23. Mark 8:33. Judas was a devil. The Lord rebukes Satan in Peter, but Judas

was a devil; he was a man, a human being, but he was a devil: "One of you is a devil" John 6:70, the Lord says.

C.A.M. He would never be the subject of the intercessory prayers of Christ. He would be in a different class altogether from Peter.

J.T. He would be of course; the Scriptures had said he would be that: "not one of them has perished, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled", John 17:12. I cannot imagine the Lord, after He arose, would appoint an apostle who was a devil. It must have been to bring out the whole condition, how sin worked out, that the sin might show itself in such circumstances as that.

C.A.M. One feature about the Lord is that He always gave the enemy every opportunity that he wanted.

J. T. Yes, He gives full scope, of course. He bound him for a while, just as he will be bound presently for a thousand years. He bound the strong man and destroyed his goods in order that the Lord might have a free hand, but He gives Satan full scope so that he should show himself.

S.R.McC. Why does the Lord say, "He that has delivered me up to thee has the greater sin", John 19:11?

J.T. That would be Judas, of course; in a wider sense it would be the Jews. Pilate represented the governmental thought, and the Lord would not becloud that. He says to Pilate, "Thou hadst no authority whatever against me if it were not given to thee from above", John 19:11. He recognises government in Pilate, but He does not in Herod, and the Jews and Judas were responsible all the more because Pilate would have released Him, bringing out what government is. Sin is allowed to reach its enormity; God could have stamped it out at once but it has gone all these years, reaching a greater proportion now than

ever before because man's mind has been so stimulated by modern science. He becomes thus more the vehicle for the expression of sin.

W.L. Would you say it is allowed to come in in that way to establish a contrast with what God is bringing in?

J.T. God has some peculiar reason for letting sin show itself. How much He makes of it in detail in the prophets and in the New Testament, particularly in Revelation! Why is He occupied so much with it? He surely wants to bring out what He is overcoming in Christ. "For this cause, even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned ... . For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many", Romans 5:12,15. By one Man death is dealt with, and "much rather" grace has abounded. It is to bring out the "much rather". In Matthew 11 and 12 to show the turning point in the Lord's service we have things at their worst, and the Lord brings out greater things. He says that a greater than Jonas or than Solomon is here (Matthew 12:41,42). Then He binds the strong man, "He takes away his panoply in which he trusted, and he will divide the spoil he has taken from him", Luke 11:22. It is to bring out what is at work in man on Satan's side, and on God's side.

E.P. The very worst comes out in Judas, and then immediately this title of the Son of man and the fact of His being glorified follows that; in the face of every disadvantage this peculiar glory shines.

J.T. I think so. The very sinfulness at its extreme is occasioning the glory of the Son of man.

E.P. In Psalm 8:6 it says "Thou hast put everything under his feet" Psalm 8:6, and Psalm 7:15 speaks of a wicked man, that "he digged a pit, and hollowed it out, and is fallen into the hole that he made", Psalm 7:15.

Things are put under His feet morally and then publicly.

J.T. He represents the divine current in humanity. For instance, God says to Moses, What have you in your hand? Well, it was a staff, and God says, Cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent. Released from God's hand man becomes that. He becomes the very expression of opposition to God. Then God says, Take it by the tail, and he took it and it became a staff in his hand; that is, it is man again brought back into the hand of God. Christ is supremely Man in that relation as I understand it; the Son of man is to be glorified in that way. It is a very fine thought and running down the line from Adam. "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?", Psalm 8:4. That is, it is having Christ in mind that He should be glorified in the very kind of a being that dishonoured God. The very betrayal becomes the occasion of the Son of man being glorified. It is a triumph of God. Who can stand against it? The greatest opposition becomes the occasion of glory to the Son of man.

J.W.D. "The Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up", 1 Corinthians 11:23. Should that be in our minds every Lord's day morning, as you were suggesting?

J.T. Quite so. The Lord says, "The hand of him that delivers me up is with me on the table", Luke 22:21. He was triumphing even then; that is, He was unchanged. One of the finest things about the Son of man is His unchangeableness; He was Himself, He did not alter, but keeps on showing His love.

C.A.M. There is a change in the word in Psalm 8:4 from "man" (Enosh) in the first part of the verse to "son of man" (Adam) in the second part. Psalm 8:4. Would you say that expression involved another order of man?

J.T. I should say so. It is the prophetic term, especially in Ezekiel and Daniel, and is a designation

that points out Christ. It is a divine product in man as over against the son of perdition.

C.A.M. I suppose in that Ezekiel was so addressed constantly, there were features about him of the Son of man. Is that right?

J.T. Remarkably so. See how long he lay on one side! Who could do that but a man of obedience? The motion is divinely supported.

Ques. Does the sin offering enter into this glorification of the Son of man?

J.T. It is all involved in what the Lord was going to accomplish on the cross; and now He says that as He is glorified God is glorified in Him. That is a great thing. And then He says, "God also shall glorify him in himself" (verse 32). It is a very precious thought, that God will glorify Him in Himself. I apprehend that "Himself" is God, and He will glorify the Son of man in Himself; and He says He will do it immediately, He will not defer it. Therefore we arrive now in our subject at a kind of glory that is present; it is a present glory that Christ has. It is not a millennial glory; it is a present glory that God has given Him immediately. God has given Him the assembly immediately; He is wrapped up in that.

A.R. Is the title "Son of man" more in relation to earth?

J.T. It is; still it has a universal thought in it.

J.R.H. What do you mean by the Son of man being glorified in God?

J.T. Well, it is a personal thought; God has recourse to an unusual thing to glorify that Man in Himself. He might put a man over a kingdom, as He does in crises, and other things like that; but to glorify Him in Himself without specifying what the glory is is a matter that is peculiarly personal. I think the immediate glory is what the Lord has in the assembly. He has got that now; He has had it every day since then.

J.W. Would there be a link with Hebrews 2 in what you are saying? "But we see Jesus, who was made some little inferior to angels on account of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour" Hebrews 2:9.

J.T. That is right. Stephen saw Him up there. It relates to the universe. He is in heaven and Stephen saw Him and the glory. There is no deferring of this matter; He is glorified, it says, "immediately". God is so taken up with this wonderful expression of obedience that He glorifies Him at once.

J.T.Jr. Was that in mind when the apostle says, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly", Ephesians 5:32? It was glorious -- what was predestinated, what was before the world.

J.T. It brings home to us what we are to Christ now.

E.P. Does this thought of the Son of man convey inherent qualities? Would lordship and headship, Lord and Christ, be a subdivision of that thought?

J.T. Quite so, it seems to be a development of 'Son of man'. Wisdom saw sons of men and delighted in them. The prophetic eye sees the Son of man having great distinction: one says, "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and splendour", Psalm 8:4,5. That is a good question, and of course the answer is in Hebrews, "We see Jesus, who was made some little inferior to angels on account of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour" Hebrews 2:9. That is the One.

C.A.M. "If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before?", John 6:62. That seems to be a very marvellous statement.

J.T. Very.

C.A.M. How do you understand that?

J.T. It is remarkable that that title is used. It really denotes the unchangeableness of Christ's Person. Before He came down He was in Deity, but it is the

Person known on earth, designated in in that way. He says, "The Son of man who is in heaven", John 3:13. What dignity the Son of man gets in that way!

H.B. Is the moral glory to shine out in localities when the scripture says, "Messengers of assemblies, Christ's glory", 2 Corinthians 8:23?

J.T. That is just it. The assembly is to reflect all this because she is the Lamb's wife. The Lamb is the Sufferer, so that you get Christ according to this moral glory reflected in the saints. Thus moral glory is reflected in us by suffering for the will of God.

E.P. Is this carried into the assembly in some way? I was thinking of the quality of manhood. Paul says, "I know a man in Christ ... such a one caught up to the third heaven", 2 Corinthians 12:2.

J.T. It would be; the Son of man is designated in that way in heaven. So that a man in Christ would be fitted as taking on these qualities.

E.P. Is the Lord's position as Son of man meant to bring out features of manhood according to God?

J.T. Well, it is a prophetic term that finds full amplification and fulfilment in Christ as Man in the gospels. It is used about eighty-five times in the New Testament, almost wholly in the gospels, to bring out what He was. Then Ezekiel is the other place where it is used. There are other scriptures where you get it occasionally.

C.A.M. If the question was raised in the Old Testament, Where is the Son of man? the answer would have to be, He is in heaven.

J.T. Certainly. He says to Nicodemus, "The Son of man who is in heaven", John 3:13. How would he understand that? It is inscrutable.

C.A.M. Daniel had the light of it.

J.T. Showing what dignity is in the title. You can understand therefore the glory of it, the peculiar dignity of it: "Now is the Son of man glorified" (verse 31).

J.W. In chapter 12 the Lord says to Peter and Andrew, in answer to the Greeks who desired to see Him, "The hour is come that the Son of man should be glorified" John 12:23.

J.T. I am glad you brought that up. It brings in another thought, the universal dominion of the Son of man. Alexander's kingdom is in mind. These Greeks represented man peculiarly, that is the educated man, so that in Romans 2 it is that man that judges others, condemns others. "And there were certain Greeks among those who came up that they might worship in the feast; these therefore came to Philip, who was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and they asked him saying, Sir, we desire to see Jesus", John 12:20,21. Andrew and Philip think that this is a very important matter, but the Lord does not make very much of it. The hour had come for His universal dominion. He is the Son of man; He is entitled to all that according to God belongs to man; all the glory of the race belongs to Him. But instead He says, "Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, it abides alone" John 12:24. There is the coming universal glory of Christ, but the Lord says, That must be deferred and I must die. The glory He gets in chapter 13 as having died is, as I understand, the assembly; not the kingdom as in the millennium, but the assembly. He gets it in the interval. It is what God the Father is pleased to give Him as having laid down His life, as giving up His life. The corn of wheat must die, because if not He must abide alone. The point is that a new order of man must come in: "Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, it abides alone; but if it die, it bears much fruit"; John 12:24 not the Greeks, but a new order of man entirely, and that new order of man is to be seen in the assembly now.

Rem. "There came therefore a voice out of heaven, I both have glorified and will glorify it again" John 12:28. God was in accord with what the Lord said.

J.T. Quite so, The Lord was troubled in spirit: "Now is my soul troubled, and what shall I say?" John 12:27. He asks God to glorify His name, and God says He has done it.

A.R. The Lord says to Nathanael, "Thou shalt see greater things than these", John 1:50. Is that deferred?

J.T. That is deferred. It is the glory of the Son of man in the sense of universal dominion: "Let them have dominion", Genesis 1:26. That is deferred. He must die, must bring out another race; not the Greek or the Roman, but another race like Himself.

G.H. Why is Ezekiel referred to as son of man?

J.T. Because, I think, he primarily bore the traits of Christ in some sense. His ministry pointed to Christ as the Son of man; there is only One who is the Son of man.

A.P.T. Nathanael made great headway in his soul; he says, "Thou art the Son of God", John 1:49. Where does that fit into spiritual history, the ability to say that and then to learn about the Son of man?

J.T. I think Nathanael read the Bible; I think he is honoured in that he refers to Psalm 2. He says, "Thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel" John 1:49. Philip had said to him, "We have found him of whom Moses wrote in the law, and the prophets, Jesus, the son of Joseph, who is from Nazareth. And Nathanael said to him, Can anything good come out of Nazareth? Philip says to him, Come and see" John 1:45,46. Undoubtedly he was a real case to bring out a true Israelite, one that can quote the Old Testament and accept it and see the Person the Old Testament had named. So that Philip says, "Come and see", and he came and saw. The Lord says, "Behold one truly an Israelite, in whom there is no guile" John 1:47; and immediately Nathanael said, "Thou art the Son of God", showing that he had read Psalm 2; he is able to name a prophetic person.

N.B. What glory does Peter have in his mind in Acts 3 when he speaks to the men of Israel and says, "God ... has glorified his servant Jesus" Acts 3:13?

J.T. That was the immediate thing that had happened. Peter is testifying to the fact that God has put Christ at His right hand: "Having therefore been exalted by the right hand of God, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which ye behold and hear", Acts 2:33. He has glorified Him, Jesus who died, whom they had murdered. It is a demonstration of Christ's righteousness. So that the Holy Spirit is given because God has glorified Him. This matter of the moral glory of Christ is worthy of our deepest consideration, and then the immediate glory that is conferred upon Him because of that: God will glorify Him in Himself at once, He will not delay. Christ got the assembly at Pentecost, and He has had it ever since. We want to give Him the joy -- "for the joy that was set before him" Hebrews 12:2 -- the present joy which He has now. "Sit at my right hand, until I put thine enemies as footstool of thy feet" Psalm 110:1, says Jehovah to Him. In the meantime He drinks of the brook by the way; He has got it already.

W.L. Would you say we can detract from that in anyway?

J.T. I think you may hold back what belongs to Him. It is what is His joy now, His present portion, a personal matter between the Father and Himself. The Father glorifies Him in Himself, and He glorifies Him immediately.

A.H.P. That would greatly enhance the Supper to us?

J.T. I think it opens up what Christ has now. What a time He has every Lord's day!

J.R.H. This seems to correspond with the time in which the Supper was instituted in the other gospels.

J.T. Yes, it does. It is carefully kept apart, but

synchronises with it. And then in chapter 12 we have the thought of a man who saw His glory, that is another thing. We want to get a man who has seen His glory; that is Esaias. Esaias speaks twice; John quotes from chapters 6 and 53 of Isaiah. Chapter 6 is the glory of Christ in the temple and chapter 53 is the moral glory of Christ as the Sufferer here, the Redeemer, and it is said that Isaiah saw the glory. It is to bring out that one has to see the glory to speak of it rightly.

Ques. Isaiah is often referred to as a great prophet of salvation and joy. Should preachers have this view?

J.T. That is what I was thinking exactly, that we might have it before us. These things spoke Isaiah as he saw His glory and spoke of Him, so that it is the vision of the glory that gives you power to speak of it.

A.R. He saw His glory and then he says, "Here am I; send me". Isaiah 6:8.

J.T. Quite so, a man who saw His glory.

H.B. Would you say that is the power of Peter's writings? He says the disciples were "eyewitnesses of his majesty", 2 Peter 1:16.

J.T. Quite so; he brings that forward in his last letter. Paul says, "Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?" 1 Corinthians 9:1. He saw Him and hence he spoke of Him.

E.P. His train filled the temple. Is that the idea of a retinue of persons?

J.T. I suppose so, and the seraphim are there to celebrate His glory; they say, "Holy, holy, holy, ... the whole earth is full of his glory!" Isaiah 6:3; not only the temple but the whole earth; it radiates from the temple.

J.R.H. Isaiah speaks in a judicial way here.

J.T. The judicial side is that they are past believing; He blinds their eyes, just as we were saying; the point is reached where God lets men remain where they are. There is no hope for them at all. I think that this ought to bring before us and teach us the closing testimony of the gospel here. In the gospel testimony the aim

should be to have it clearly set out, not befogged by any sectarian view, because each sect has its own Christ. It is Christ's glory that is witnessed to, and if people do not believe it is, as Paul says, because they are lost. There is a class of this kind of persons, and then there are persons who are lost that are to be saved, such as Zacchaeus; he is lost but he is savable. There is a class of people that are lost, and they are not savable; that is the kind that is in mind here. It says, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart" John 12:40. This is quoted several times in the New Testament; it is judicial, people have refused to listen to the gospel.

Rem. In Corinthians it speaks of the radiancy of the glory of the glad tidings of the Christ.

J.T. That is a wonderful statement. If I do not see that, it is because I am lost; Satan has had an advantage over me and blinded my eyes.

J.A.T. Would this be the theme and power of the gospel?

J.T. That is what we have been having these three days, the power the gospel has in your soul if you apprehend the glory of Christ.

A.R. Will you explain the last two verses of the scripture read, John 12:42,43? Why does He say that?

J.T. That is a very solemn thing, is it not, that any one should be of that class? The father and mother of the man in chapter 9 were like that; they were afraid they might be put out of the synagogue. They had glory in mind, they loved the glory of man rather than the glory of God. It is very solemn.

S.J.H. Were they really believers?

J.T. We are left to judge ourselves. It says in chapter 2:23,24, that certain people believed on Him, but the Lord did not trust Himself to them. But in chapter 3 you have a remarkable man, Nicodemus, who evidently was a believer, and who was born again, but

he remained in the council. You might say his case is doubtful, that he is questionable; but John brings him out at the end to show that he is not questionable, but is genuine, only of poor stature. God brings these people forward here to show them He does not think much of them. You are not of much account if you are of this class.

S.J.H. They would not be vessels to honour.

J.T. Let no one flatter himself if he is a man who thinks more of glory from men than from God. Still, there may be some right ones like Nicodemus. I think he comes in as a genuine case, but of small stature and I should not like to belong to that class.

A.A.T. Will you say a few words about the glory of the Son of God?

J.T. It is a question of affections, the Son making God known: "The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". John 1:18. The loveliness of it comes out in such a One in that relation. So that Paul says, "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, he who has been preached by us among you (by me and Silvanus and Timotheus), did not become yea and nay, but yea is in him. For whatever promises of God there are, in him is the yea, and in him the amen, for glory to God by us", 2 Corinthians 1:19,20.

J.R.H. What is personal to Him underlies what is moral.

J.T. It is beautiful to see the Son of man over against Judas. We have the Son of man glorifying God.

WALKING (1)

Hosea 11:1 - 4; Exodus 13:17 - 20

J.T. One has been thinking of the disposition the Lord would make of us all so that we may be mutually helpful, both brothers and sisters, in order that we may get the benefit of what there is available, and hence I thought of suggesting the idea of 'walking' in the Scriptures. It is said in Hosea that Jehovah taught Ephraim to walk and it is thought to link that on with the types, first seeing the bearing of the prophets on such a thought, and then the types in Exodus and Numbers. As I said, the passage in Hosea was suggested because it speaks of Jehovah teaching Ephraim to walk. That is how it should read in verse 3: "And I it was that taught Ephraim to walk, -- He took them upon his arms". The verses read suggest that this is a divine thought, that we should know how to walk. There are also other thoughts that enter into the passage which denote the divine and tender feelings shown to Israel as He took them up out of Egypt.

Then in Exodus, the passage, "And the children of Israel went arrayed out of the land of Egypt", really means, according to the note, that they went out by fives. That would be a military formation. Later it is hoped that we shall look at Numbers where walking is taken up more definitely in relation to the tabernacle, but so far the scriptures read are to show what they were as coming out of Egypt, formed militarily, not simply to make war but in view of the tabernacle, and how they were to walk in relation to it in certain groups -- four groups. It is thought that the allusion to Hosea would affect us as it is intended to, having been written by one who was a very sympathetic man, most tender in his feelings toward Israel, yet firm, saying the very strongest things which were needed. But what is especially in mind now, as we remarked, is as to our walking together, and whether we are to be divinely

taught to walk as we are divinely taught in other things. It says in John 6:45, "And they shall be all taught of God" John 6:45, which alludes to ordinary instruction, but what is in mind now is walking.

L.E.S. It is very touching that following on in that chapter in Hosea it says, "My heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together. I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God, and not man, -- the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not come in anger. They shall walk after Jehovah" Hosea 11:8 - 10. Do you think there should be a correspondence in these days with that?

J.T. That is just what is in mind. The first such walking is spoken of as alone: "Enoch walked with God" Genesis 5:24 -- not after Him but with Him. It is an individual matter. So did Noah walk with God; and God said to Abraham, "Walk before my face, and be perfect", Genesis 17:1. So that it was early in the mind of God, and the question now is as to walking together. It is applicable to a local position, as it is to the general one, for Ephesians speaks of walking. God had ordained certain works that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10), which would be more general and universal, for there is a great deal of individual or independent action, I might say, in localities taking on certain ways and procedures. We should have in mind that assembly customs are to be universal. "But if any one think to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the assemblies of God", 1 Corinthians 11:16. So that in these procedures whatever they may cover we ought to bear in mind that there is universality and catholicity in all that is done in the assembly. The allusion to going out arrayed, meaning they went out five in a rank, is certainly very suggestive, indicating that we are not making any great show of strength or numbers, but yet in rank and order -- military order.

R.R.T. You have said that this matter was early in the mind of God. Is it significant then that the first mention of it in the Scriptures is in regard to God Himself? They heard the voice of God walking in the garden, showing that it is a very early thought in the mind of God, set forth in Himself.

J.T. Very good. They heard the voice of the Lord God walking. Very suggestive! So John in Revelation heard behind him a voice; what he saw was seven assemblies, seven golden lamps. The suggestion of the assembly is what he saw first, and then Christ in it, the Son of man in the midst of them; so that it is a good thought to bring forward. Adam and Eve heard the voice walking, speaking; the voice meant that Jehovah was there. And then we have what was alluded to before, that Enoch took it on and walked with God.

F.T. Would you say that experience with God underlies walking? Ephraim was taught. I was thinking of Mary sitting at the Lord's feet and hearing His words. There seem to be underlying conditions there whereby she would be able to walk.

J.T. Well, no doubt what is really involved in her position is that she was moving in the principles already inaugurated. It comes after the mount of transfiguration in which the voice says, "This is my beloved Son: hear him", Luke 9:35. She was moving on that line and was hearing Him. She had an ear, not on the mount but in her own house (or at least in her sister's house) and she was sitting at His feet hearing what He was saying. The point would be, therefore, to take in whatever the principal word is for the moment, and this particular thing is what she observed, for she sat at His feet and heard what He was saying.

C.J. The man in Acts 3 would be in line with this thought. He learned to walk with the brethren, entering with them into the temple.

J.T. He did indeed -- "walking, and leaping", Acts 3:8

A.D. Are there certain features which should mark us in relation to our walk? I was wondering whether Ephesians 4 would fit in with your idea. Paul writing says, "I, the prisoner in the Lord, exhort you therefore to walk worthy of the calling wherewith ye have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long suffering, bearing with one another in love; using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace" Ephesians 4:1 - 3.

J.T. That is a very appropriate scripture, and very general, for it is an Ephesian scripture. It bears on what we were saying in the sense that we are to walk together. We have already touched on one walking, such as Enoch, and God Himself walking, but what is in mind as Numbers teaches is walking together; and that is what I believe Hosea would lead up to.

C.C.T. Do we see this walking together in Elijah and Elisha? It says, "They two went over", 2 Kings 2:8.

J.T. Just so; that helps.

F.A. Is the figure a physical one, making use of the physical fact of walking which depends on the power inside, as spiritual walking would depend on our experience with God?

J.T. Quite so.

E.G.McA. Does the first part of Hosea set forth the children of Israel taking on the licentious character of the nations around, and then this prophetic word comes in to bring them back to Exodus 13? They were not walking in ranks excepting according to the nations.

J.T. Just so. The nations influenced them very much, which is, of course, the case now; we are influenced by surrounding circumstances.

Ques. Why does God especially refer to Ephraim here?

J.T. Because he had the leading place in Israel; therefore the anointed kingdom even after its division is very often referred to as Ephraim; but it is a solemn matter that Ephraim was the younger son of Joseph and God moved him up beyond Manasseh. It shows that while we are moved up sometimes, or move ourselves up in local positions, God may have to take us in hand to point out where we have broken down as He did with Ephraim. Despite this the birthright came down to him, and he had the first place. The birthright was Joseph's. It had belonged to Reuben but he lost it because of his conduct and God gave it to Joseph, and so it came down to Ephraim.

E.G.McA. Does God use the word 'Israel' in verse 1 to indicate His sovereign choice and then the name Ephraim as guiding him in his walk to come up to this idea?

J.T. I think so. The second part of the verse would show that actual de facto circumstances are in mind. It is what was set up in the land, and Ephraim had the first place. God goes back to the beginning with Ephraim, when he was a child. It says, "And I it was that taught Ephraim to walk", which would mean in his childhood. It really covers the whole position in childhood days showing how God is interested in us, which would apply to every local company and to the whole assembly too; as in childhood days.

F.R.A. It is a question of teaching. Some of us have been under the teaching of men but it was God that taught Ephraim to walk.

J.T. Just so. I am sure we begin aright by calling attention to the childhood days, whether it be those of an individual christian or of a local assembly or of all the assemblies. That is, what pleasure God has in us in our childhood days when we are teachable, or should be teachable! Ephraim was greatly

favoured because he was one who was pushed forward or elevated in the family, in Joseph's family. But in Ephraim's old days 1 Chronicles tells us that there was calamity in his house, which is a common thing now. The brethren have calamities in their houses and it is well to take note of that. Ephraim's children went down to the inhabitants of the land -- whatever land it may have been -- to steal cattle and were slain. He felt the loss of his children, though it was their own conduct largely, and therefore it says there was calamity in his house. But God gave him other children. It is a question of how you look after your children if you want to save yourself from calamity. He had other children and some of the greatest in the testimony, for instance, Joshua; he was one of the posterity of Ephraim when calamity was in his house, showing how God may exceed our expectations even in the sorrow. There is a daughter born too that is mentioned; she built certain cities, showing what the sons and daughters may do after a calamity, when it is really accepted. Ephraim was comforted, his brethren comforted him, showing how after the thing is accepted God may turn it into greater blessing than we may expect. It says, "And his daughter ... built Beth-horon the nether, and the upper, and Uzzen-sheerah", 1 Chronicles 7:24.

R.R.T. Is this looking at the matter first in an elementary way?

J.T. That is what I thought, because Hosea is a very affectionate prophet and worked with other prophets. According to the history you can see he was working with other prophets, but he was affected by marital relations -- Jehovah's own marital relations and how they had been interfered with. These relations have a great place with God and the sorrows that have come about through them too in this country especially. Hosea deals with all this. He is tender about things and yet he is severe, as has

been noted. But he speaks about our childhood days. There are some brethren here that are, perhaps, coming into the truth; their eyes have just been opened a little and God is looking at their walk. It is not a question of the truth but how the truth is affecting us, whether there is any walk that is suitable to it, and God is saying to us that He is ready to teach us how to walk; and we shall see that that teaching involves that we have to learn how to walk with others. "But youthful lusts flee, and pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart", 2 Timothy 2:22. God is going to put us into good company in our childhood days and teach us how to walk, and that implies walking with others.

L.E.S. The difficulty with Ephraim was that he never learned to walk with Judah; but at the end "Ephraim will not envy Judah, and Judah will not trouble Ephraim", Isaiah 11:13. And at the end of Hosea it says, "Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? intelligent, and he shall know them? For the ways of Jehovah are right, and the just shall walk in them" (Hosea 14:9).

J.T. Very good. One might cite further facts about Ephraim both in regard to Gideon and Jephthah. They were encountered by Ephraim in their services and the Ephraimites demanded why Gideon did not ask them before he did anything. That is to say, Ephraim represents an element in persons who are assertive and make demands, arising from rights and ability and the like, that we may have. Gideon very humbly said, What was I in comparison with you? and appeased them, but Jephthah quarrelled and they lost more than forty thousand men. They said, "We will burn thy house" Judges 12:1; they were violent. We do not want that.

R.R.T. All this is elementary in a way, but would you say that there is a majesty and a greatness about

it? That is, we learn that it is not in God's mind that we should be impotent but that He would Himself take on the matter, and is prepared to teach us to walk. "And I it was that taught Ephraim to walk". We get a thought as to the greatness of the matter, God Himself being prepared to take us on and teach us.

J.T. Quite so. The tenderness that we have alluded to enters into the matter here. "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son", Hosea 11:1. It leads us on to the Lord Jesus. And then the prophet, as is usually the way, turns to something else promptly, almost without notice. "As they called them, so they went from them" (verse 2). That would be an allusion to subsequent history. "They sacrificed unto the Baals, and burned incense to graven images", showing how this prophet runs on to other things abruptly, and God deals with us abruptly too at times. And then it goes back again to what we are saying, the tenderness and the child condition: "And I it was that taught Ephraim to walk". That comes in here as if the Spirit of God would put it in where there is severity, as it says further, "He took them upon his arms, -- but they knew not that I healed them". There was healing needed. "I drew them with bands of a man, with cords of love; and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I gently caused them to eat" (verse 4). So that it is like a child taught to walk and taught to eat, and relieved and healed and set up in his infantile days in view of manhood.

H.B. Is there somewhat of an answer in the first epistle to the Thessalonians where Paul's tenderness is seen in working with Silvanus and Timotheus in this great matter?

J.T. That is good. And then, too, he sent Timotheus to the Corinthians that they might learn in Timotheus his ways as they were in Christ during

his absence. The Corinthians really had not learned properly how to walk and eat. They did not even know how to eat the Lord's supper, and he sends Timotheus that they might know how to walk, might learn Paul's ways as they were in Christ -- not the ways of the world around, but as they were in Christ; and then how to eat, because if we do not learn to eat the Lord's supper we shall never learn to eat at all.

E.G.McA. Does verse 3 indicate the affection of Hosea where it says, "He took them upon his arms"? Is that a statement of Hosea's, all his own? And "I it was that taught Ephraim to walk", and "but they knew not that I healed them" -- do these statements indicate the tenderness of God?

J.T. It is like some passages we get in the Psalms. You sometimes wonder who it is who is speaking; there are other voices. Christianity involves that there are other voices; the voice that was heard in the garden was Jehovah's, but it was Jehovah Elohim. That would work out into the Trinity. There are different voices: holy, heavenly, divine voices, and maybe the prophet's voice. We love to hear them. You just wonder at times, in the Psalms especially, who is speaking, but when you really do learn you are enlarged and feel how rich we are that there are three Persons dealing with us who love us. The Lord says, "The Father himself has affection for you", John 16:27 as if the Lord is saying, It is another love. The Son loves and the Spirit loves, because the Spirit is said to love us, but the Father loves us, and the more we get into these things the richer we feel ourselves. That is intended, because the prophets are intended to enrich us. What voices there are! So that you get, for instance, the seraphim in Isaiah 6"In the year of the death of king Uzziah, I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple" Isaiah 6:1. There were seraphim

and then Isaiah speaks and the Spirit tells him to do something, so that we are enriched in all these things.

L.E.S. It is remarkable how in Deuteronomy Moses recalls the voice of Jehovah moving among them and with them. In chapter 5:24 it says, "Behold, Jehovah our God has shewn us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice from the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God talks with man, and he lives", Deuteronomy 5:24.

J.T. In another reference (Revelation 10) the Lord Jesus is seen coming down. He roars like a lion, with his right foot on the sea and his left on the land. Then there is an angel that speaks, and John tells us who the speakers are, but the Lord Jesus is directing. John is to eat the little book the angel has in his hand, and he says, When you eat it, the way it affects you will tell whether you are fit to prophesy again. It did affect him just as the angel said to him, and he says, "Thou must prophesy again", Revelation 10:11.

L.E.S. Do you think that the matter of the little book has an important bearing on our walking together? You had something in your mind about the little book.

J.T. Well, I would not like to go into that now, but there is a little book, and the one who was writing about it says, speaking of the Lord Jesus, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written", John 21:25. So that this little book is important as having a bearing on something that we should know. Possibly we shall come into the teaching as we proceed, but now I am thinking of this childhood condition and how we all need to be taught how to walk and how to eat. What tenderness there is in God so that we should learn!

C.C.T. I was wondering about the tenderness of God that has been mentioned. Would the intelligence of what you have in mind here enable me to walk with my brethren?

J.T. Just so. "Be ... tender hearted", it says. The Bible is full of these things, especially Peter's writings, because he treats of the governmental dealings of God. He deals with saints at a distance. They are at that distance because they are under the government of God, but christianity comes to them at a distance. Christianity sets them up where they are, teaching them how to walk, so that we are to "follow in his steps", 1 Peter 2:21.

Ques. Do you not have the teaching of this where John in his first epistle speaks of the old commandment and the new? The new commandment would be what was shining out in them and the old commandment the words they had received.

J.T. The old commandment was what the Lord was here, the word they had heard. The new commandment was the same thing, "which thing is true in him and in you", 1 John 2:8. The new commandment implies what we are, how the walk of Jesus is seen in us now. Christianity really is in mind as compared or contrasted with our Lord and His walk here below. I believe what tests us is our local companionship, whether we can really walk with the brethren, get down in order to walk with the lowliest.

G.MacP. Sometimes we may get the idea of independency in our souls. In Acts 9 evidently Saul of Tarsus was taught how to walk with the brethren in Damascus; he was taken by the hand and led to Damascus.

J.T. Very good. Galatians enlarges on that, as to how they took account of what happened to him, especially a brother who was before him in the service -- a great servant -- Peter. Paul says, "I went up to Jerusalem to make acquaintance with Peter", Galatians 1:18.

as if he would learn from Peter. The time had come for that. Some one had led him into the city and he had learned from Ananias. The Lord had prepared Ananias so that he should teach Paul, telling him what he should say to Paul. These things show the system into which we are brought, and how God has prepared everything and foreseen everything so that we should be taught how to walk and eat and do all things.

Rem. As the apostle Paul says to the Thessalonians: "We used to exhort each one of you, and comfort and testify, that ye should walk worthy of God, who calls you to his own kingdom and glory", 1 Thessalonians 2:11,12.

J.T. Just so. And then another thing: the Thessalonians themselves were models. He tells them they became imitators of the assemblies of God which were in Judaea, meaning that we have to look far afield to get all the divine principles and not to build up anything in a merely local sense, or have any local customs at all. Christendom is built up on national customs, and local customs, whereas true christianity is a universal idea; so that the Thessalonians were imitators of the churches in Judaea, which were a long way off and in a different country too. The idea of nationalism is to be deprecated among the brethren.

T.S. Do you think we should get the gain of Hosea's name? It means 'deliverance'. This walking involves that.

J.T. Just so. Think of the tenderness with which he speaks of Jehovah's marital relations with Israel in chapter 1. "The word of Jehovah that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel. The beginning of the word of Jehovah through Hosea. And Jehovah said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms, and children of whoredoms; for the land is entirely given up to whoredom, away from Jehovah", Hosea 1:1,2.

He is speaking about the treatment that He has received from Israel in this sense, because He was really a Husband to her. Then He says in chapter 2:14, "Therefore behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak to her heart. And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope; and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be in that day, saith Jehovah, that thou shalt call me, My husband", Hosea 2:14 - 16. That is, she would learn to call God her Husband; she would know God and learn to know Him as Head and to be subject; "and shalt call me no more, Baali; for I will take away the names of the Baals out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name. And I will make a covenant for them in that day with the beasts of the field, and with the fowl of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground; and I will break bow and sword and battle out of the land; and I will make them to lie down safely. And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; and I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in loving-kindness, and in mercies; and I will betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know Jehovah. And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith Jehovah, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; and the earth shall hear the corn, and the new wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jizreel", Hosea 2:16 - 22. Pardon me for referring to all this, but it is only to bring out this matter of teaching. Jizreel means 'God soweth'. Sowing is a primary thought. He sows her to Him, as it says, "For if we are become identified with him in the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of his resurrection", Romans 6:5

We are planted and sown in that sense. "And I will sow her unto me in the land; and I will have mercy upon Lo-ruhamah; and I will say to Lo-ammi, Thou art my people; and they shall say, My God", Hosea 2:23. So that God teaches us in this as He takes Israel up afresh in the future; and as He takes us up now He would teach us according to primary principles, and especially that we should be linked up in a marital way with the Lord, as Paul says, "I have espoused you unto one man", 2 Corinthians 11:2.

L.E.S. I was wondering if we do not get an example of this in John 4, in the woman's having had five husbands and living with one who was not her husband, and then coming into touch with Christ? Was He not her Husband, and had she not to come to a moral judgment about her history? The valley of Achor became a door of hope to her and she was morally adjusted and able to walk.

J.T. She left her waterpot. She "went away into the city, and says to the men ...", John 4:28 showing that she was delivered, because the principle in this book is deliverance, as was remarked. She had had five husbands and the one she had then was not her husband. She needed deliverance from them and she got it because she got the Lord. "Come, see a man", she says. I think that helps too, because she says to the Lord, "Sir, I see that thou art a prophet", John 4:19. It is when you begin to see and perceive things that you show you are growing; you are not writing to others all the time as to what to do. "The Lord will give thee understanding in all things", 2 Timothy 2:7. We learn from the Lord. So the Lord says to her, "Woman". It is the first time He calls her "Woman", as if she had attained womanhood in being delivered. That is the teaching of Hosea. She was brought into the wilderness and taught to sing there as in the days of her youth.

L.E.S. She is brought to recognise Him as her Husband and no longer only as Lord. "Come, see a man".

J.T. "I have espoused you unto one man", 2 Corinthians 11:2.

R.R.T. She had never taken one step properly in a walk with God until she left her waterpot after her conversation with the Lord and went into the city. These were the first steps she had ever taken rightly; she had learned how to walk.

J.T. She learned something too about the value of the body. It had been devoted wrongly, not used rightly. She left her waterpot, which implies her own vessel, meaning she would carry the water herself; but that could only be as she was delivered from impurity. How could she be espoused to one man, a chaste virgin to Christ, on those lines?

L.E.S. So Ephraim says in the last chapter of Hosea, "What have I to do any more with idols?", Hosea 14:8.

J.T. One thought to connect it with this condition in the last chapter, but the woman of Samaria certainly helps us because it is a question of womanhood in this book. She is delivered from all uncleanness. She, so to speak, calls Him, 'My husband'.

T.S. Do you include the marital thought in the Lord's calling her, "Woman"?

J.T. I think so. The Lord is leading her up to the level that was in His mind about her. She has come to that level really because she says, "I see that thou art a prophet". And He says, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father ... . But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers ...", John 4:21,23 because she had talked about worship and He answered her too. Then He speaks about the true worshippers.

T.S. In connection with Adam's saying, 'Woman', it immediately follows: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife", Genesis 2:24.

Is that the full thought?

J.T. That is the idea exactly. Adam named her: "This shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man", Genesis 2:23. That name is to go on down. That is the word the Lord uses to the woman of Samaria to deliver her from five or six husbands. Such a travesty of marriage, to say the least about it! But now she is to have one Husband! "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?", John 4:29. So that she sets something before the men and they come to hear too.

C.C.T. In that statement she really commences in service.

J.T. Just so. She is set up in service.

G.MacP. Does it suggest a subjective state in us capable of taking on divine teaching and being maintained in it?

J.T. I would say that; we begin to proceed. When the truth is set out people talk about this and that and the other thing; they talk about their clergyman, saying what a fine man he is, forgetting that he does not know the Lord, perhaps. They forget that, and many other things that God abhors.

E.G.McA. She really began to do what the apostle says in 1 Corinthians 6:20, "Glorify now then God in your body" 1 Corinthians 6:20. That is part of the walk.

J.T. just so. When she left the waterpot she left herself in that sense. She was a new woman, a new person.

F.R.A. Do we get a touch in Nicodemus? He came to Jesus by night in John 3, but in chapter 19 it says, "Who at first came to Jesus by night", John 19:39. Now he was not coming by night; he came with Joseph of Arimathaea.

J.T. He came with one hundred pounds of spices too.

T.S. Is the reason for so much confusion in christendom the lack of what is marital being understood?

J.T. Christendom is a travesty as regards God. The marriage relation must be there, and to admit any other is wrong. She says, "Come, see a man" John 4:29, and the apostle says, "I have espoused you unto one man" 2 Corinthians 11:2, and John the baptist says, "He that has the bride is the bridegroom", John 3:29.

L.E.S. So that it says, "Neither is woman without man, nor man without woman, in the Lord", 1 Corinthians 11:11. If you have 'Ish' you must have 'Ishshah'.

R.R.T. In speaking about the proper use of the body as illustrated in this woman, walking really would be a fundamental thought, just in line with that; for after all in a physical way walking is a co-ordinated action of the powers that are resident in the child; and so in a spiritual way could we think of it similarly? God would teach us to bring into proper co-ordinated use all the spiritual powers which we have and then we should go on to greater things in the use of the body.

J.T. Quite so. We know how parents love to look at little ones as they begin to toddle, and presently they begin to use their members better and learn how to keep balance. It must be pleasurable to God to see us use our members as we get light, and Romans teaches us how to use them.

G.MacP. To "walk in newness of life", Romans 6:4.

J.T. Just so.

E.G.McA. You remarked in the beginning of the meeting that we should not localise these truths. Would not the scripture that says, "Shall two walk together except they be agreed?" Amos 3:3 be looked at in a universal way?

J.T. That is a word that one had specially in mind in view of these meetings. How can we walk together unless we are agreed? A wise man says that.

J.McK. In view of what you have been saying, would it not be a concern with us that in our local assemblies we should be walking in the order in which the assemblies in other parts of the world are walking?

J.T. "Thus I ordain in all the assemblies", 1 Corinthians 7:17. I think what has been said as to 1 and 2 Corinthians is helpful and far-reaching too. Paul would teach the Corinthian assembly to walk, and then he says, for that reason I sent Timotheus. He also taught them to eat. He says, as it were, You are eating, but it is not the Lord's supper. You are eating like partisans.

J.McK. Would the letter the apostle wrote to the Colossians, in which he said that after it had been read in Colosse it should be read in Laodicea and that the letter to Laodicea should be read at Colosse, have that principle in mind?

J.T. That is right. That would mean that both assemblies were taught the same thing and yet Paul did not make them do with one letter, he wrote two letters.

F.R.A. It says in Revelation, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies" -- all seven of them.

J.T. Quite so.

G.MacP. What God may be working out amongst us, He will work out universally in the world to come. What He wrought in Ephraim will be wrought out in Israel.

J.T. The last chapter shows how they come to it. "O Israel, return unto Jehovah thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. Take with you words, and turn to Jehovah; say unto him, Forgive all iniquity, and receive us graciously; so will we render the calves of our lips", Hosea 14:1,2 meaning there would be sacrifice in it. "Assyria shall not save us", Hosea 14:3. That is a great matter for guidance negatively; do not turn

to Assyria. The king of Assyria was a pretentious king. "We will not ride upon horses", we will not be pretentious, using horse-strength; "Neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Thou art our God; because in thee the fatherless findeth mercy", Hosea 14:3. It shows what God is; His grace and favour and kindness to the fatherless. "I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely; for mine anger is turned away from him", Hosea 14:4. Notice the singular there. That would be Israel, I suppose, as a whole nation. "I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall blossom as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon. His shoots shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive-tree, and his smell as Lebanon. They shall return and sit under his shadow; they shall revive as corn, and blossom as the vine: the renown thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon. Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? (I answer him, and I will observe him.) I am like a green fir-tree. -- From me is thy fruit found. Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? intelligent, and he shall know them? For the ways of Jehovah are right, and the just shall walk in them; but the transgressors shall fall therein", Hosea 14:1 - 9.

Rem. It is good to see that God ever has recovery in view.

J.T. How full these thoughts are, and how tender! What one had in mind was the tenderness with which God deals with young persons.

C.C.T. Would you say it brings in the thought of a restful position? It says, "They shall return and sit under his shadow".

J.T. Just so. Canticles would fit into Hosea, where the bride learns to sing in the wilderness. "In his shadow have I rapture and sit down; and his fruit is sweet to my taste", Song of Songs 2:3.

E.G.McA. You get the eager tenderness of God in verse 8: "Ephraim shall say" Hosea 14:8, and then it says,

"I answer him". That is, God is in it. Then Ephraim says, "I am like a green fir-tree", and God says, "From me is thy fruit found". Those are the other voices of which you were speaking.

J.T. It has to be read carefully there to see who the speakers are.

E.G.McA. What should impress every one of us is that no matter how obstinate or rebellious we may be, God's love does not turn, and even if the brethren have to take up our case, it is the love of God that is behind it to bring us back into the knowledge of Himself as children.

J.T. Just so.

L.E.S. Is the urgency of the matter seen in the prophet Jeremiah where the word as to the early walk of Israel is, "Cry in the ears of Jerusalem" Jeremiah 2:2, and do we see the result of God's teaching when she went out after Him into the wilderness? Do you think God delights to record this?

J.T. I think Matthew guides us in that because of the idea of the place children and youth have; children in the temple were saying, "Hosanna to the Son of David" Matthew 21:15, and the Pharisees reproved them, but the Lord says, "Have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?", Matthew 21:16. That is the idea, and Matthew has it particularly in mind. The Lord is seen in the second chapter of Matthew as a little Child. He is called a little Child nine times and there is the phrase, "the little child and his mother", Matthew 2:13. Also we have, "Out of Egypt have I called my son", Matthew 2:15. And when the disciples are together they say, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom ... ?", Matthew 18:1. Think of that in the light of the truth of Matthew and how the babe condition is stressed! The Lord took a little child and set it in the midst of them and said to them: "Unless ye are converted and become as little children, ye will not at all enter into the kingdom of the heavens", Matthew 18:3.

So that we are shut out if we are depending on our own greatness; the Lord says the little child is the idea. It is "this little child" Matthew 18:4 -- the one He makes the selection of.

R.R.T. It is beautiful to see what you are speaking about in the latter part of the book because earlier God had to say that Ephraim was oppressed and corrupted in judgment because in self-will he walked after the commandment of men. In God's dealings with us, although there may be that self-will and walking after the commandment of men, it is all, as we meet it in exercise before God, to eventuate in what we have in the end of the book.

J.T. That is the way the truth stands, and one would love to know the book better; and the brethren, too, should look into it especially from a marital point of view and the feelings of God about His rights over us.

WALKING (2)

Numbers 2:1 - 34

J.T. There was some inquiry made at the end of our last reading.

E.G.McA. I was wondering how you would bring in the prophetic statement, "I drew them with bands of a man", Hosea 11:4. Has it a prophetic touch to it in regard to Christ or does it refer to the influence amongst the brethren in bringing in the love of God?

J.T. I should think antitypically the Man would be Christ.

E.G.McA. The apostle says, "Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ", 1 Corinthians 11:1. I was wondering whether you could use it in a practical sense amongst the brethren today?

J.T. I would think the Spirit of Christ would enter into it. We remember that Christ is in heaven, and the antitype is really the assembly here, which implies that Christ is in heaven and His Spirit down here, the Spirit of Christ. We read of "the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ" Philippians 1:19 which Paul had in a large measure; so the idea of the man would doubtless be reflected peculiarly in him. The reflection of Christ must be the supreme thought in the economy. The man immediately in mind would be Moses or perhaps more particularly Aaron. He was a man of affection, and we learn in Exodus 16 that Moses directed Aaron to speak in connection with the manna. It is said in verse 9 of that chapter, "And Moses spoke to Aaron, Say to all the assembly of the children of Israel, Come near into the presence of Jehovah; for he has heard your murmurings. And it came to pass, when Aaron spoke to the whole assembly of the children of Israel, that they turned toward the wilderness, and behold, the glory of Jehovah appeared in the cloud", Exodus 16:9,10. The speaking of Aaron at this crisis was such that it affected the

people. I think that involves the character of Aaron and, of course, it requires both Aaron and Moses to set out the one Man -- Christ, "the Apostle and High Priest of our confession" Hebrews 3:1; it is the attractiveness of Christ which comes out rather in Aaron's speaking to us, His voice rather than His authority. Therefore, authority is to be kept in the background as much as possible. Paul put it to the Corinthians whether he should come to them with a rod or in meekness and, as we said this morning, he sent Timothy who was his child, a man like himself, who, he says, "shall put you in mind of my ways as they are in Christ", 1 Corinthians 4:17. The sequence shows that these ways were evidently attractive. And so here it was not authority at this time, it was Aaron's voice and the people turned toward the wilderness. They had thought of going back to Egypt, and their turn showed that now they were changed; there was something attractive in Aaron. The word in Hosea is 'bands', "with bands of a man", Hosea 11:4 as if they were not hard to bear. So the Lord says, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest to your souls; for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light", Matthew 11:29,30. That is, there would be the holding back of power and authority in such circumstances and the unfolding before their eyes of Christ Himself. So He challenges them: "Will ye also go away? Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal; and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God", John 6:67 - 69. I think that would be something like what is referred to here and it should touch us, those of us who are in any way prominent in leadership locally or generally, that as much as possible the man should be seen more than the apostle.

E.G.McA. I think that is a very helpful statement for those who seek to take up cases that are difficult.

As you say, what a man is comes before his authority.

R.R.T. Rehoboam would be an example of one who failed through moving on the opposite line. "My little finger is thicker than my father's loins", 1 Kings 12:10. He was moving on just the opposite line and, indeed, caused the people to depart from him.

J.T. Very often the humility and meekness which marks the servant is more effective than the authority he may wield.

E.G.McA. So that you can really be severe in love in dealing with the situation. You have to present the severity and seriousness of the case, but there is the impression of love that comes out first. Is that right?

J.T. Quite so. No doubt Hosea has it throughout, hence the result in the last chapter, as we had this morning.

Now what is in mind at this time is not childhood or babehood, but manhood, hence Israel is counted from twenty years old in Numbers 1. "Take the sum of the whole assembly of the children of Israel, after their families, according to their fathers' houses, by the number of the names, every male, according to their polls; from twenty years and upward, all that go forth to military service in Israel: ye shall number them according to their hosts, thou and Aaron", Numbers 1:2,3. So that we are now in the presence of another line of things which involves manhood, whereas we had this morning just babehood or childhood, the learning time, the impressionable time, not finality but that which leads up to what is final, which is manhood. The full thought of manhood is found in the Levites in the same chapter. We are now dealing with the children of Israel viewed in their tribes, and they are to understand that they are men, which would be a further stage of the believer's history involving more than new birth, because one may be born

anew and yet not have the Spirit or be in full manhood. The Spirit is in mind and it is a suggestion of Pentecost when the saints were seen as indwelt by the Spirit. The Spirit came down and the Lord Jesus was in heaven, the full divine thought thus being worked out, the Man in heaven set out down here.

E.G.McA. Is the expression in 1 Corinthians 16:13: "Quit yourselves like men" 1 Corinthians 16:13 more in your mind than the thought of men in John 17?

J.T. Just so. John 17 would be, as I suppose you have in mind, a question of the kind of being, humanity, of course, but humanity in a certain stage of development. "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world", John 17:6. "Quit yourselves like men" 1 Corinthians 16:13 would be men in contrast to children. Paul says, "When I became a man, I had done with what belonged to the child"; 1 Corinthians 13:11 he emerged from childhood.

C.C.T. How do you connect this thought of manhood with a man who is head of his father's house as in Numbers 1:4? "And with you there shall be a man for every tribe, a man who is the head of his father's house", Numbers 1:4.

J.T. And then their names are given. They would be what might be called head men and therefore such as should exercise moral influence over the house and over all, which is important. There are only a few such, about twelve, and of course Moses and Aaron represent them particularly, Moses in authority, and Aaron in affection, the priesthood. The idea of rule would be vested in these, tapering down to lesser men, because referring back to Exodus again we read, "And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people; and the people stood by Moses from the morning to the evening. And Moses' father-in-law saw all that he did with the people, and said, What is this thing which thou art doing with the people? why dost thou sit alone, and all the people are standing by thee from morning to evening? And Moses said to his father-in-law, Because the people come to me to enquire of God. When they have a matter, they come to me, and I judge between one and another; and I make known to them the statutes of God, and his laws. And Moses' father-in-law said to him, The thing that thou art doing is not good. Thou wilt be quite exhausted, both thou and this people that is with thee; for the thing is too heavy for thee: thou canst not perform it alone. Hearken now to my voice: I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee. Be thou for the people with God, and bring the matters before God; and teach them the statutes and the laws, and make known to them the way in which they must walk, and the work that they must do. But do thou provide among all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place them over them, chiefs of thousands, chiefs of hundreds, chiefs of fifties, and chiefs of tens, that they may judge the people at all times; and it shall be that they shall bring to thee every great matter, and that they shall judge every small matter, and they shall lighten the task on thee, and they shall bear it with thee. If thou do this thing, and God command thee so, thou wilt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace. And Moses hearkened to the voice of his father-in-law, and did all that he had said. And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, chiefs of thousands, chiefs of hundreds, chiefs of fifties, and chiefs of tens. And they judged the people at all times: the hard matters they brought to Moses, but every small matter they judged. And Moses sent away his father- in-law, and he departed into his land", Exodus 18:13 - 27.

Well, now, I think the brethren will see how the economy stands with respect to the idea of

manhood, twenty years old and upward. 'Upward' would include those men who were heads of the different groups; so that in Israel there would be a great number of persons who were distinguished and who in their places would exercise influence for good, leading on to manhood in the younger ones. I believe that is just what obtains at the present time, and what ought to obtain in every local gathering. A man is what he is, and his influence ought to be according to what he is. The younger ought to be ready to learn from the elder although they themselves might not have the Spirit and be men in that sense; experience in the elders must be recognised.

L.E.S. Is the military idea a matter of manhood? Would the idea of endurance as seen in the shittim wood be the idea in manhood?

J.T. That works out in the tabernacle, for the tabernacle unfolds the greatest pattern, I would think, and that is where the shittim wood is particularly seen, there is no other wood in the tabernacle. The power is another view of the thing and the building is another view to bring out the latent strength that would be manifested in all these men according to their experience. This is a very important piece of instruction although given by a foreigner, Moses' father-in-law; yet it shows how God acts and uses such men as that for a purpose.

R.R.T. It would fit in with a remark you made earlier that God makes His own disposition according to what is available, the valuation of the material under His hand.

J.T. Just so. And so at the beginning in Moses' own case and that of Jethro, Moses fled to Midian when he was forty years old. That is, he was come to years; he had become great, but not in the sense of spiritual manhood. He sat by the well in Midian, which is the Spirit typically, where a man would develop and maintain his manhood; and the

daughters of the priest of Midian came out to feed the flock and the shepherds drove them away. A greater power is needed and Moses is ready, but he did not slay them as he had slain the Egyptian, he watered the flock. When his daughters came back so soon Jethro said, Where is the man? They had not brought him with them. That is the idea: Where is the man? We must keep our eye on the Man.

H.B. Is there a lack of that at Corinth? Paul says, "There is not a wise person among you", 1 Corinthians 6:5.

J.T. That is good. Where there are difficulties amongst us we do not need to go before the courts to settle them. It is a question of the least in the assembly, but he must be an assembly man, a man that is in the assembly and has to do with it -- an intelligent person.

H.B. Is it not a sign of weakness in local problems when there has to be much correspondence with the outside as to local difficulties? Does not the Lord raise up those locally who can help in these matters?

J.T. Well, He does; only that there are other elements that sometimes interfere with that. Brothers who are older perhaps do not have as much experience as the younger ones, and such things have to be searched out. A man is what he is, what his influence is, and we must make room for him according to this.

C.C.T. We were speaking of Ananias this morning in regard to Saul. Would he fit in here as showing the full thought of manhood?

J.T. We never hear of him afterwards; he is only mentioned in relation to the service he rendered to Paul. He was not a man of great distinction in a general way, but he served Paul and that was a good point. And so Barnabas served Paul too, but in a greater way; he brought Paul to the apostles, putting

him before the right men, whom God had set up to guide him and help him.

G.MacP. What would be the idea in setting up a prince in the house of Judah: "The prince of the sons of Judah", Numbers 2:3?

J.T. You are coming back to our chapter. It says, "And the prince of the sons of Judah shall be Nahshon the son of Amminadab". Now let us see what that means. The word 'prince' has come to mean more or less what is right at all times, but I think here it would also mean a person of great personality. There are such men, as, for instance, Barnabas, a man of great personality; a man with peculiar influence, not only serving as an apostle but as an influential man.

Rem. He was a man having moral qualifications, would you say?

J.T. He would have. Otherwise he would not be a prince. The word 'princely' involves moral qualifications in view of personality. So we see in the book of Ezekiel that in the millennium there will be "the prince". It is a designation according to the king, and would mean not simply that he was a royal personage, although no doubt he would be that and would rule, but that he would be a man of great personality, a man of beauty and attractiveness.

C.C.T. Is your thought that personality comes into the service?

J.T. It does. If you have not personality you have not much influence for good. I may have the ability to preach, be a good platform man, but not be a good mixing man, or a mutual man amongst the brethren as a brother.

R.R.T. The matter of being a man among his brethren and his influence among them is emphasised in that it says of each one of these men, "and his host", intimating that he had influence with the brethren.

J.T. Quite so. It is a very testing matter. I think Numbers takes character from personality among the brethren, that is, a man who is morally a prince and yet just a brother, sitting with his brethren as one of them. The Lord says, "I am in the midst of you as the one that serves", Luke 22:27, and He was the Lord! As He says, "Ye call me the Teacher and the Lord, and ye say well, for I am so. If I therefore, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet", John 13:13,14.

R.R.T. Paul, too, is a princely man. It is said of him, "Paul and his company", Acts 13:13.

J.T. You will notice there, as we have often remarked, that there is a turn-over. Barnabas is mentioned first as setting out but it is "Paul and his company" immediately, showing that the leadership was in Paul.

Ques. Is leadership seen in Peter standing up with the eleven resulting in three thousand souls being brought in?

J.T. Just so. The ability was there.

E.G.McA. Is there a double qualification in this kind of man? In chapter 1:4 these men are heads of their fathers' houses and in chapter 2 they are to be heads of the hosts. Does that link on with the universal thought of the tabernacle?

J.T. I think so. There were four particular men of the whole number, and four groups of threes. Nahshon was not only prince of Judah; he was not only head of his own tribe, but he was in a way head of them all, showing how great the position was.

L.E.S. Would the principle of overseership and elderhood as set out in Timothy come into this?

J.T. I would say so; but what I have observed is that eldership is not much sought after by the brethren, preaching and teaching are preferred. That

is to say, the platform is rather desired, whereas the elder is needed to look after the saints and also the shepherd. There are two words: 'presbyter' (the Presbyterians take their cue from that) and 'overseer' or 'bishop', but they both have the same force. Paul and Barnabas chose such: "And having chosen them elders in each assembly", Acts 14:23. This was when they went out to secure the material for the assembly; they saw to it that in every assembly there were elders, not 'an elder', but 'elders', showing that the saints need them for growth and building.

C.C.T. That is the reason Paul called out the elders from Ephesus and brought before them the thought of shepherding the saints.

J.T. Quite so.

H.A.G. The thought of eldership does not exclude preaching, does it?

J.T. Not at all. The elder is supposed to preach if he has gift. That is provided for in Timothy: "Let the elders who take the lead among the saints well be esteemed worthy of double honour, specially those labouring in word and teaching", 1 Timothy 5:17. But notice that is a secondary thought; eldership is first, and then it goes on to include gift. Then again we find them recognised in the epistle to the Philippians, where it says, "Paul and Timotheus, bondmen of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the overseers and ministers", Philippians 1:1. These latter would be deacons, overseers and deacons being particularly noted in the letter, as if the apostle Paul would convey the idea that he is thinking of them particularly under those circumstances, thinking not so much of gift as of men who are officers.

E.G.McA. 1 Timothy 3 gives more detail as to the characteristics of the overseers. "The word is faithful: if anyone aspires to exercise oversight, he desires a good work. The overseer then must be irreproachable, husband of one wife, sober, discreet, decorous, hospitable, apt to teach; not given to excesses from wine, not a striker, but mild, not addicted to contention, not fond of money, conducting his own house well, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (but if one does not know how to conduct his own house, how shall he take care of the assembly of God?)", 1 Timothy 3:1 - 5.