Pages 1 to 491, 'Revival' and Other Ministry. Notes of Meetings in U.S.A., 1938 - 1943. (Volume 201.)

REVIVAL (1)

2 Chronicles 29:1 - 36

J.T. What is in mind is revival. We have a prayer in Psalm 85 that the saints might be revived, and in the prophet Habakkuk we have a further prayer that the work of the Lord should be revived. These prayers are applicable today. We always have a tendency to droop, to become cold; so that I thought the Lord would help us to consider the outstanding instances of revival in the Old Testament, and perhaps we may be led to go into the New. So that the thought is to consider Hezekiah first in two readings. The next chapter (30) introduces the passover which he kept. His revival is compared with the time of Solomon, "And there was great joy in Jerusalem; for since the time of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel, there had not been the like in Jerusalem" (verse 26). Then Josiah's passover -- the revival under Josiah -- is compared with the days of Samuel in chapter 35: 18: "And there was no passover like to that holden in Israel from the days of Samuel the prophet; neither did all the kings of Israel hold such a passover as Josiah held ...". That goes back further.

The third allusion is in Nehemiah: the feast of tabernacles in his days goes back to Joshua. These comparisons will help us, and it will be observed that the feast of tabernacles is in remnant times. Nehemiah's time goes back further by comparison even than these two in 2 Chronicles. The further back we go in comparison the nearer we get to the original thought of God, and the greater evidence there is of true revival, not only in feelings and affections but in principles and truth.

I mention those three because of the comparisons made with them. There are other revivals we may look at with the Lord's help but this one under Hezekiah is particularly important. It begins with a man of mature years, twenty-five years, when he opened the doors of the house of God, "He, in the first year of his reign, in the first month, opened the doors of the house of Jehovah, and repaired them" (verse 3). Then we shall see as we run down the chapter the development of the truth under his influence and direction, so that the Spirit of God tells us in the last verse of our chapter, "And Hezekiah rejoiced, and all the people, that God had prepared the people; for the thing was done suddenly". It was a real revival by the grace of God, and though there was not much time to effect everything, yet it was reached.

C.H.H. Do you place these revivals consecutively, the one following the other in our own soul's history?

J.T. They should be. The opening of the doors of the house of Jehovah is the first thing, and then the dealing with the evil that had existed, which we get in the succeeding verses. These revivals are very important as applicable at the present time. They are intended to stir us up.

S.P. Is revival connected with some particular phase of the truth?

J.T. I think that is right. Some particular phase is stressed in each revival. We can see the house is the prominent thing here.

J.W. It says, "And he did what was right in the sight of Jehovah". Would that be the moral basis for the movement seen in this chapter?

J.T. Quite so, "And he did what was right in the sight of Jehovah, according to all that David his father had done". There is a standard mentioned, that is the principle, there is always a standard in mind. We may thank God for any outstanding servants we can allude to who have gone, but of course the great standard is

Christ. There is nothing less in the mind of God at anytime than Christ.

A.H.P. These revivals are not based upon the need of men, the low level of man's need, but on what is according to God, starting at the higher point.

J.T. Revivals in the history of christendom are not to be classed under the headings of these the Scriptures allude to; such usually refer to great activity in evangelical work. But what you observe here is that the principles governing the work, the right standard, is to be in mind from the start. It says in verse 25, "And he set the Levites in the house of Jehovah with cymbals, with lutes, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and of Nathan the prophet". They have the higher standard in mind; that is a matter to be kept before us. The word 'revival' is common; many activities might be alluded to under that name but they do not fit here at all. Revival today according to God must involve the assembly, and Christ as Head of it.

Ques. Is there not importance in the fact that it gives his mother's name, Abijah? The previous chapter closes with, "And Hezekiah his son reigned in his stead", and this chapter begins with the mother's side.

J.T. You get that frequently in the histories of these kings. In order to have a right product you must not only have a right father but a right mother. That principle is set out in Genesis, the principle of a right father and a right mother, so as to have a wholly right seed. We have what is partial, and even mongrel, like Ishmael, but a wholly right seed is in mind in the things of God, so that Genesis not only provides the patriarchs but the sisterhood too; it supplies suitable wives and mothers. I suppose that is the suggestion in the mother's name being mentioned here, so that it says in verse 2, "And he did what was right in the sight of Jehovah, according to all that David his father had done".

J.W.D. You get the allusion to David in connection with Philadelphia. I was wondering whether the thought of Hezekiah's reigning referred to the dispensation of God and sovereignty in regard to the period of revival.

J.T. That opens up an instructive line of thought. It is remarkable how David is introduced in connection with the gospels. Matthew had in mind the assembly, and introduces David at once -- "Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham". Paul brings him in in connection with the gospel in Romans, and Timothy is reminded of it in 2 Timothy 2:8: "Remember Jesus Christ raised from among the dead, of the seed of David", a very striking matter in remnant times. Then in the address to Philadelphia, which of course alludes to the remnant times in our dispensation, it is "He that has the key of David"; and when He finally addresses Himself to the churches in the close of Revelation, the Lord says, "I am the root and offspring of David", Revelation 22:16.

So that I think in Hezekiah's connection with David here we see that David is the standard thought. We have the suggestion of what is best spiritually; David represents what is best, most refined spiritually. In a revival God would have that before Him, not merely what may accrue to men but what will accrue to God. David is the leader in the service of God in the Old Testament, the sweet psalmist of Israel.

C.H.H. What is the distinction between Joshua's line and David's?

J.T. Joshua goes back further; it is earlier. But there is nothing really higher in quality than what we get in David. The comparison here in our section is with Solomon, as already remarked, it is "since the time of Solomon the son of David". Joshua's spiritual power is not, I think, in relation to the kingdom.

Moses represents that side -- spiritual power in the kingdom in the way of authority and rule. Joshua is Christ known inwardly, that is, the power by which we enter on our inheritance, our heavenly position.

S.McC. Is it helpful to see the lead that Hezekiah gives in clothing what is levitical with the peculiar dignity he does, as in verse 11: "My sons, be not now negligent; for Jehovah has chosen you to stand before him, to do service unto him, and to be his ministers and incense-burners"?

J.T. Yes, that passage indicates that he is exercising his proper function as king. The first book of Samuel shows that the priesthood was henceforth to be subservient to the king and Hezekiah exercises that prerogative. He speaks in a fatherly way to the Levites. It would be the Spirit of Christ in authority amongst us in revival, in whatever way that may be shown. To stir up the Levites, he calls them "My sons"; it is a fatherly thought. As a king he is a young man, but he, as a king, represents the authority of Christ. He exercises his functions in that way, to stir up the Levites, that is the point; to get the Levites moving spiritually he gives them their highest place. "For Jehovah has chosen you to stand before him, to do service unto him, and to be his ministers and incense-burners". It is well in stirring up people to remind them of their dignity, there is an incentive in that to move in true dignity. He had already called them to attention in verse 4: "And he brought in the priests and the Levites, and gathered them into the open place eastward". They are to be lectured; it was, so to speak, the Spirit of God calling on the brethren for in a certain aspect there has been lethargy. "He brought in the priests and the Levites, and gathered them into the open place eastward; and he said to them, Hear me, ye Levites: hallow yourselves now, and hallow the house

of Jehovah the God of your fathers, and carry forth the filthiness out of the sanctuary". And then he acknowledges the guilt that had preceded, and in verse 11 he calls them his sons and addresses them in their dignity; he shows what their proper function is, positive service God-ward, "ministers and incense-burners". Verses 3 to 11 contain an appeal to us at the present time. It seems to me that each of us should take it to heart as to himself, his house and his local position, as to where he has been and as to where he is in regard to all this, and whether there is not a voice to us in this scripture. They are addressed by the king as sons, and their dignity is fully owned. The thing is to exercise what we are called into, what we are as called into the service of God.

F.R.A. Would the thought of eastward suggest the coming in of the Lord? He opened the doors and then they gathered in the open place eastward. Conditions have to be suitable to His coming in.

J.T. I think so, there is always a hopeful outlook. We are likely to be doleful and say there is no hope, but the eastward direction is hopeful; it suggests hopefulness. There is plenty of scope, he "gathered them into the open place", and gave them the suggestion of liberty and room.

J.B. Would Peter in chapter 3 of the second epistle have revival in his mind in saying, "I stir up, in the way of putting you in remembrance, your pure mind, to be mindful of the words spoken before by the holy prophets", and he goes on in connection with the day of the Lord and their waiting?

J.T. I think stirring up their pure minds could take that character, 'Stirring up' is a good thought, but the thing is not to stir up what is impure. It is pure minds. I think it would have the bearing of a revival.

J.R.H. You were speaking of David setting forth the standard. It says that Hezekiah "opened the doors of the house of Jehovah". Would that have reference to the key of David? Would that come in there?

J.T. Yes, it is a question of the right to do it. The Lord has a right. The word to Philadelphia in Revelation 3:7 is, "And to the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia write: These things saith the holy, the true; he that has the key of David, he who opens and no one shall shut, and shuts and no one shall open". I think it involves the right of Christ. Christendom had come under foreign authority and influence; if we go back to the Reformation. Rome had the key of everything except the Eastern church, and that had become dead. The Lord did much in the Reformation, but there was not much opening in it for what was positive. The key of David refers to the right to open up things in the way of what is positive. The allusion would be to what has happened in that spiritual initiative has been taken out of the hand of Rome, and all that goes with it has lost its place -- not in an official way but in a spiritual way. There has been complete release from that influence. The Lord has come in and opened up things to us; there is an entrance into those things and it continues now as much as ever. The Lord continues things as He opens up the doors to us, that is what is in mind. Hezekiah did that, he opened the doors of the house of Jehovah and repaired them; he exercised the right that belonged to him. It is a question of the Lord's authority, a right to open and no one shall shut, "Behold, I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut". It is a very encouraging thought, so that it looks as though the Lord will keep the doors open for us.

A.H.P. When local difficulties arise the suggestion is sometimes made to close up the meeting. I was

wondering whether this scripture, in conjunction with the one suggested in Revelation, might afford to us the procedure by which the door should be kept open for the Lord and His service.

J.T. Yes; it is the holy and true One that opens. We know how much has been opened up externally by imitation, leading nowhere except toward the world; but there is only One who opens up these things, and He opens with the key of David. It refers to what is most exalted and refined spiritually, the service of God and all that goes with it.

C.H.H. The previous king introduced foreign elements into the worship of Jehovah, but in this chapter they judge that and definitely name it as being evil.

J.T. Quite so. He not only introduced idolatrous elements, but we are told in verse 19 of "the vessels that king Ahaz in his reign cast away in his transgression". That is, he would cast away what is of God as profane. There is much of that. But these vessels are now restored, and that is the sort of thing going on today.

J.W.D. Would 2 Timothy be rather the rallying of what is priestly and levitical in the brethren, and the opening of the doors be more the Corinthian epistles?

J.T. The rallying of the priestly elements would be 2 Timothy and the introduction of David there is striking. That epistle opens up everything to us; it is the avenue of all that is of God. It is, I believe, a sort of charter given to us that we may fall back upon. Any one person has that mandate; he does not need to wait for anyone else; any true believer in Christ is not required to wait for anyone else, for he can release himself in separating from vessels to dishonour, and then "pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart". I believe the door is open in that way.

All that we have in 1 and 2 Corinthians and all that we have noted is available to us. So Hezekiah here renders a wonderful service in opening the doors and repairing them that there may be access to the things of God. But there may be access and yet much repair needed; even now there are a lot of things held that need correction, and access to the things of God is hindered because of these conditions.

E.G.McA. Is individual exercise expressed in Hezekiah in verse 10? Particularly in verse 5 he gathers the priests and Levites to face the situation found in the temple, so that the individual exercise moves out to take in the whole company in revival.

J.T. That is the way the passage stands. The first thought is in bringing the Levites to the open place. It is authoritative; it is the king that is doing it; he has the right to do it according to 1 Samuel. Now that he has delivered his message to them in the open place as to the uncleanness of the conditions, he comes back to the thought of positive service, and it is there he tells us what is in his heart. You want to get what God has put into some brother's heart who has a care, some brother who has the lead. Some brother has a secret understanding with God, but in carrying that out he may have trouble. Hezekiah told them what was in his heart; it was "to make a covenant with Jehovah the God of Israel, that his fierce anger may turn away from us" (verse 10). And then he calls the Levites out, "My sons, be not now negligent; for Jehovah has chosen you to stand before him, to do service unto him, and to be his ministers and incense-burners". That is a beautiful appeal to us, recognising the dignity of the Levites, calling them sons, touching our affections. See what you are called into! It seems to me that this is a great appeal to us. You can see the course he takes here, the course that is needed now -- cleansing, and repairing what is out of the way, and

then the positive side, the Levites fully owned in their dignity. What a wonderful thing is opened up to us, "ministers and incense-burners" to Jehovah!

S.P. Even though Hezekiah gives the lead, the germ is there to respond to the lead. And then in verse 15 the movement is from them: "And they gathered their brethren, and hallowed themselves, and came, according to the commandment of the king by the words of Jehovah, to cleanse the house of Jehovah".

J.T. Yes, that is good. One man cannot make a revival, though he may lead in it. More than one man is needed. You can see that Hezekiah had an understanding with God in his heart. But then in the next section it says, "Then the Levites rose up". (verse 12), and then their names are given, which is important. It is well to read all these names, because if the Spirit of God has taken pains to write down a man's name it is well to read it. These names have been read in our hearing and there is a goodly number of them. It says in verses 15 - 17, "And they gathered their brethren, and hallowed themselves, and came, according to the commandment of the king by the words of Jehovah, to cleanse the house of Jehovah. And the priests went into the inner part of the house of Jehovah to cleanse it, and carried forth all the uncleanness that they found in the temple of Jehovah, into the court of the house of Jehovah. And the Levites took it to carry it forth into the brook Kidron. And they began on the first of the first month to hallow, and on the eighth day of the month they came to the porch of Jehovah; and they hallowed the house of Jehovah eight days; and on the sixteenth day of the first month they made an end". It seems to me that is very fine. The matter is finished. There are external things, but then there are the inner things that have to be dealt with, that is, things that are professedly nearer to God, that

might be concealed; because with many of us as gifted men or even in the place of spiritual men there are things that cannot be seen; but priestly intelligence understands and they come to the inner part to deal with all that, and it is carried outside; and then it is brought to what suggests the death of the Lord Jesus, the judgment of God, in the brook Kidron.

H.B. What would you say as to the Levites hallowing themselves first before hallowing the house of Jehovah?

J.T. You can see that one has to be hallowed himself before he can help the saints. That is what I believe is the force of the Lord saying that He is the holy and the true. "Holiness becometh thy house", Psalm 93:5. If any one seeks to help others he must be holy himself.

J.W.D. I suppose this goes far beyond what is merely local: the house of Jehovah governs everywhere. One in priestly service can move in any local assembly really.

J.T. There is only one house. The word 'house' in this sense is never plural, it is always singular. There are many assemblies and subdivisions, many local assemblies, but only one house.

J.W.D. It is in mind here to make a covenant which would involve the saints everywhere.

J.T. So that Paul says, "And thus I ordain in all the assemblies", 1 Corinthians 7:17. There are not different methods or customs, we are all governed by the same principles and methods.

Ques. Are there two activities in action here, one the taking out the evil and the other the bringing back of the clean vessels?

J.T. That is important, undoing what Ahaz had done. "And all the vessels that king Ahaz in his reign cast away in his transgression have we prepared

and hallowed, and behold, they are before the altar of Jehovah". It seems to me that this is an important matter, certain ones had been cast away by a previous administration, an evil one, indeed an idolatrous one, but these vessels are now secured. We cannot afford to lose them. The priests are mentioned first in verse 4; and then in verse 16 in the cleansing of the house in the first service depicted, it says, "And the priests went into the inner part of the house of Jehovah to cleanse it, and carried forth all the uncleanness that they found in the temple of Jehovah, into the court of the house of Jehovah". It seems to me that they are governed rightly as regards everything. They are the ones who have the full thought, they go into the inner part of the house. The inner part today would apply to brethren who are recognised as leaders, who might conceal things better than others, but priestly intelligence can detect them. These evils may pass unnoticed, but the priestly element, it seems to me, deals with that point, so that what is inner, what is more obscure, is discovered and dealt with. "And the Levites took it to carry it forth into the brook Kidron", they understand their work. The priest, of course, comes first; it is the priests and Levites. In Deuteronomy and Joshua there is not much distinction between the priests and Levites, but the priests come first, the Levites are subservient to the priests. It works out here that the priestly discernment deals with this inner uncleanness; they carry it out to the court. It is where it can be seen by anybody. The Levites then come in and they deal with it, which would mean, I suppose, that the Levites, perhaps by a word of ministry, a rebuke, or an exhortation, would put the thing where it belonged. This thing can only be dealt with by the application of the death of Christ; the death of Christ would be alluded to in the brook.

Ques. Is Paul an instance of one who is not going to be deterred by the prominence of the brother in question? Paul withstood Peter to the face. He is priestly, the matter is brought to an issue.

J.T. That helps. The structure of 1 and 2 Corinthians would indicate that Paul discerned that the real difficulty at Corinth was with the leaders. He immediately says in chapter 1, "There are strifes among you. But I speak of this, that each of you says, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ", meaning that there were local leaders. He does not name them, he leaves that and goes on to other things; but in the second epistle he goes back to it with power and he says, "Having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled", 2 Corinthians 10:6. He wanted to get the mass of the brethren right, but he would deal with those leaders. I believe that is the priestly side here; the priest went into the inner part and brought the thing out. Nobody probably suspected that evil had gone so far in, but the priest did and brought it out into the open place.

J.W.D. Would these inner things be defective doctrine?

J.T. They might be, or bad principles probably. We have had to deal with such; in fact they have constantly to be dealt with, things that have been carried down for years by persons who can conceal them. They will not bring them out. Ordinarily they are concealed, but the priestly element discerns them and puts the finger upon them.

E.G.McA. Would you say that the priests coming into the inner part of the temple would indicate the consciousness that something is wrong before God, and the movement would come from the affections

God-ward; and then it works down to the Levites and into the ministry?

J.T. I think that is right. There is a great deal that passes because men have had a standing, the anointing has been there; they have had a place and they are not suspected, and they are clever enough to conceal the things. But priestly discernment puts its finger upon the evil and it is exposed. The Lord has done much of that for us.

J.R.H. How would you explain what is set out in verse 34. "Only the priests were too few ... for the Levites were more upright in heart to hallow themselves than the priests"?

J.T. "The priests were too few, and they could not flay all the burnt-offerings; therefore their brethren the Levites helped them, until the work was ended, and until the priests had hallowed themselves; for the Levites were more upright in heart to hallow themselves than the priests". That would not set aside the order of the truth, that the priest comes first; even although he may not be hallowed as a Levite, yet he has more inwardly than the Levite has, because it is the same person, you know. I may be hallowed in regard of my service, and be able to give out a good deal to the brethren, but I may be neglecting the priestly side. But even so, as a priest I know more than I do as a Levite. The priesthood refers to what is more spiritual.

G.A.T. Say a word as to why very often evil is allowed to remain amongst us for a long time. What is the secret of that?

J.T. I have particular instances in mind. It is because of a person of established reputation; he is inside and people think he could not be wrong. And as far as you know, perhaps, he has not said anything to you that is wrong. He would be wise enough not to say it to you, but it is there, and he has said it and

done it and others know. The idea is that the priest discerns it. I believe the continuance of things that are wrong for a long time is largely because they are sheltered by such persons, persons of reputation. The Lord sees to it in time that the thing is exposed, being brought out into the open place as it says in verse 16: "Carried forth ... into the court". I believe that means the things are public; they are no longer secret. It is a very remarkable thing that it is in the inner part, nearer to God, where the evil is; and it is the reputation of the persons who hold it that gives it this place.

G.A.T. Would you say there are times when rather than bring in trouble by bringing the question up, we are weak; and instead of going inside and going to the bottom of the question we would rather leave it?

J.T. I am sure that is right. There is much that goes on amongst brethren with us that is not open. For instance, I know a place where the box was nailed to the outside of the door; it was said to have been there for fifty years. That is an open thing, everybody could see it, but it was allowed just because someone of importance had recognised it. There are many things like that, allowed to continue because we are just careless about them. They have suited a previous generation and they will suit ours, I believe what is here is inside, not what is open; when it is in the court it is open.

Rem. In 1 Samuel 21, Doeg the Edomite was in there; Saul allowed him in.

J.T. David said he saw him there; he knew he was there and would do harm. David discerned him but others did not.

S.McC. Do you think the reason why we are deceived so much in regard of such persons is because we take things too casually? Whatever is said or

ministered, it may be in conversation, is all taken casually; we recognise the brother and whatever place he may have ostensibly.

J.T. I am sure that is right; persons have carried along a sort of reputation amongst us and the rank and file of the brethren do not discern anything out of the way. Saints are suffering from it everywhere. The evil is there. They may not be intelligent about it but the priestly element discerns this sort of thing, and brings it out so that everyone can see it.

J.B. Nehemiah is concerned before God about those who had come in in relation to the priesthood.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Would you confine this to doctrine only?

J.T. Doctrine or wrong principles.

Ques. I was thinking one might have a prominent place and the priestly element might discern from his walk that he is not in accordance with his ministry.

J.T. Yes; people can maintain a certain saintly attitude. This sanctified monkish idea is very old; it has entered into the whole clerical system. Christendom has wholly imbibed it and is permeated by it. Persons put on a sanctified appearance that carries weight with the rank and file and the evil is not discerned. That comes into our own position too. A man might have a reputation for being a saintly man for years and years and that goes a long way with people; but underneath there is what is damaging to the saints. The priests bring that out so that all can see it, and the Levites begin to operate; they carry everything out to the brook Kidron which is the death of Christ. Everything must be dealt with on that principle.

E.P. Does the principle of the Levite bring in the thought that the saints should get the full value of it? The second epistle to the Corinthians goes further than the first epistle.

J.T. The general condition of the brethren was being affected. The apostle in the second letter in a remarkable way carries the brethren with him in what he is saying. He finally is able to speak out plainly about their leaders; had he done that in his first epistle, he might have stumbled a lot of people. He brought the people round to the truth, then he dealt with the leaders.

J.W.D. In 2 Corinthians 11 he says, "Such are false apostles, deceitful workers". This kind of evil undermined what was apostolic, yet was covered by what seemed to be almost apostolic.

J.T. "And it is not wonderful, for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light" (verse 14); things are covered by an exterior.

J.W.D. "Whose end shall be according to their works" (verse 15).

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. This kind of leader sometimes influences the assembly in a wrong way to get the assembly to carry out his will and not the mind of God.

J.T. That is right, but it is an important thing that the assembly stands in its own place. We are apt to make it a vest pocket matter, and use it for all kinds of purposes. It has a great place of dignity down here and no man should sway it or use it for his own ends.

A.H.P. Do you think it is wise to be alert to the priestly sensibilities of the brethren rather than to what is merely ministerial? Priestly sensibilities would discern something that might be passed by in ministry.

J.T. That is right; and we are all apt to be governed by personal feelings in the things of God -- the most baneful thing I know of, personal preference; whereas the priesthood is independent of all that, set up in spiritual power; that is the principle

of it, I believe that is the sense in which it should be seen here. They go into the inner matter, they deal with it, and bring it out into the court and there it is.

Rem. So verse 20 seems to help in that way, that the princes are brought in after the priests do their work. Attention is called to the rulers as if the responsible element can never do anything right until this other matter is dealt with.

J.T. Quite right. Take for instance in the so-called Glanton affair, it took a good while before the priests discerned the thing. The Levites were not clear about it; some of the best-known brethren went against the truth in those days. But it was finally discerned and brought out; the principle was brought out and there it is. And then the Levites -- what a remarkable amount of ministry we have had brought out ever since on that point! The Levites dealt with it, the Lord has gifted them to apply the death of Christ to all these things. The principle brought out then is now established.

To go on in the chapter, verse 20 refers to the king and the princes; that is more spiritual, what you may call the great spiritual lead that God would always give in these circumstances. "And Hezekiah the king arose early, and gathered the princes of the city, and went up to the house of Jehovah. And they brought seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he-goats for a sin-offering for the kingdom, and for the sanctuary, and for Judah. And he commanded the priests the sons of Aaron to offer them upon the altar of Jehovah". Now notice that, the number seven there; and then in verse 31 it says, "Hezekiah answered and said, Now ye have consecrated yourselves to Jehovah, come near and bring sacrifices and thank-offerings into the house of the Lord. And the congregation brought in sacrifices and thank-offerings; and as many as were of a willing heart, burnt-offerings".

That is, the people were brought into it, "And the number of the burnt-offerings, which the congregation brought, was seventy bullocks, a hundred rams, two hundred lambs, all these were for a burnt-offering to Jehovah. And the consecrated things were six hundred oxen and three thousand sheep". Now the brethren will notice that it is the great general result amongst the saints, the embodiment of it; but the king and the princes, which refers to spiritual lead given in the movement, render what is due to God; they know what is due to God. Before you get the great congregation in the thing you get a spiritual lead, brethren who know what is suitable to God. In verses 21 and 22, it says, "And he commanded the priests the sons of Aaron to offer them upon the altar of Jehovah. And they slaughtered the bullocks, and the priests received the blood, and sprinkled it on the altar; and they slaughtered the rams, and sprinkled the blood on the altar, and they slaughtered the lambs, and sprinkled the blood on the altar". This is all the burnt-offering. Then in verses 23 and 24 is the sin-offering: "And they brought near the he-goats of the sin-offering before the king and the congregation; and they laid their hands upon them. And the priests slaughtered them, and they made purification for sin with their blood upon the altar, to make an atonement for all Israel; because for all Israel, said the king, is the burnt-offering and the sin-offering". Now that is important to understand in a revival, that God will give a spiritual lead; that is what I think is meant by the king and the princes. It means persons of spiritual understanding and wealth and they apply measure and weight. It is not a question of how much I can give, but of what is suitable. A leader always understands what is suitable, and he confines himself to what is suitable to God. The idea of measure is very important in this chapter, governed by the number seven.

E.G.McA. What would the four different kinds of animals represent?

J.T. First you have the seven bullocks, then seven rams, and then seven lambs; these all refer to the burnt-offering. A bullock is something large; there is no question about this offering alluding to a person who has got spiritual wealth, he is thinking of what is for God. Rams allude to what is mature, and to the progenitive idea; we get the thought I suppose in the ram caught by the horns in a thicket. It is the progenitive idea as well as the mature idea; it is the great thought of God that there is to be a continuation of this. Lambs allude to what is intrinsic and precious. All this is coming out in spiritual leadership; you will find that a man who knows God, whom God is using, loves to speak of the intrinsic preciousness of Christ. He knows also that it is going to continue, it is not going to die out; I believe the ram brings that out, and the lamb is the intrinsic preciousness of Christ. The seven goats refer to Christ's sin-bearing, that is the idea in the goat: "Who himself bore our sins in his body on the tree", 1 Peter 2:24. You have a wonderful thought of Christ here in these four kinds of creatures. And then the service begins in verse 25: "And he set the Levites in the house of Jehovah with cymbals, with lutes, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for the commandment was of Jehovah through his prophets. And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. And Hezekiah commanded to offer up the burnt-offering on the altar. And at the moment the burnt-offering began, the song of Jehovah began, and the trumpets, accompanied by the instruments of David king of Israel. And all the congregation worshipped". A wonderful scene this!

Ques. The headship of Christ, you would say, is seen throughout the chapter in Hezekiah?

J.T. I think so, that runs through it, I think we ought to notice now that the Lord is helping us in prophetic ministry; it comes in here in a striking manner. David would represent the highest spiritual thought in the service of God; but the two prophets mentioned, Gad and Nathan, are remarkable, I believe calling attention to the service that is rendered by prophetic ministry today in relation to the service of God.

C.H.H. Would that be seen in Ezra's day? The building prospered under the ministry of the prophets, Haggai and Zechariah.

J.T. That is an excellent illustration of this. I think the chapter is striking in this matter of prophecy. The Lord is blessing the brethren in all parts of the world as to this thought. These remarkable prophets, Gad and Nathan, were peculiarly associated with David, and they are brought in here. Why did Hezekiah bring them in here? It is I think to remind us that this revival touches the highest point in the service of God. So the king says, Now offer the burnt-offering; and as the burnt-offering began the song began. God is getting His portion, not only from the odour of the offering, but from the sweet music of the singers.

J.W.D. So it says in the last clause of verse 25, "For the commandment was of Jehovah through his prophets"; and then in verse 27, "Hezekiah commanded to offer up the burnt-offering on the altar".

J.T. The prophets first, then the king is exercising his own function. I suppose it would be the authority of Christ today by the Spirit. Royalty reigns, his authority enters into all these matters; but the dignified matter of the prophets ought to be noted, how the authority of God comes in through the prophetic ministry as it comes in through Christ as Lord.

Ques. Is that linked on with 1 Corinthians 14? Would the prophetic word have a bearing on conditions locally, bringing in worship?

J.T. That is what happens immediately if a man comes under the influence of prophetic ministry; the secrets of his heart are made manifest and he falls down. The matter is so clear that all the brethren are brought into it. An unbeliever coming into this is judged of all and he falls down and worships God and he reports that God is among you of a truth.

Ques. So these prophetic meetings would be available to bring in the mind of the Lord in relation to any matter that comes up in a locality? It may not be reached in a care meeting, but possibly in a meeting for prophetic ministry.

J.T. You often find that. The prophetic ministry in the power of the Spirit carries your conscience, that that is the mind of God on this matter.

C.H.H. Would a prophetic meeting be helped by singing more hymns, combining more hymns with the prophetic word?

J.T. If they are in power. In some places the brethren sing at the care meeting. I have no difficulty about that if the thing is in power; it promotes good feelings. Hezekiah is concerned about the song. In verse 27, "Hezekiah commanded to offer up the burnt-offering on the altar. And at the moment the burnt-offering began, the song of Jehovah began, and the trumpets, accompanied by the instruments of David king of Israel". He is controlling the thing authoritatively, it is offered up on the altar where it should be. "And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded, all the time until the burnt-offering was finished. And when they had ended offering the burnt-offering, the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves and worshipped. And king Hezekiah and the princes commanded the Levites to sing

praise to Jehovah with the words of David and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and bowed their heads and worshipped". We have another name here, Asaph; he is particularly a singer and a psalm writer as David is, "And they sang praises with gladness, and bowed their heads and worshipped".

J.B. Often on Lord's day morning we have very little singing. I wonder if this would help us in connection with singing on the Lord's day morning?

J.T. Well now, that is what one has been impressed with recently, that the song of the Lord is very restricted; it has become very restricted. We have a hymn at the beginning of our meeting and then perhaps there is nothing further to the Lord Jesus in the way of singing. There may be a hymn after the breaking of bread, and then one or two perhaps to the Father. But I think what you say is suggestive, there ought to be more, not simply the use of hymns literally but in spiritual power, and not only the words but the tunes as well, because tunes have a great deal to do with the usefulness of the hymns. I believe the Lord personally has been left out too much in the service of song. We are inclined to go immediately to the Father after the breaking of bread whereas we should go on to the mutual and reciprocal exchange of affection between Christ and the assembly; there are hymns suitable for that which ought to be used.

S.P. In verse 26 the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets; "And at the moment the burnt-offering began, the song of Jehovah began, and the trumpets, accompanied by the instruments of David king of Israel".

J.T. That would show that the priests came in in their place; they came first there. The Levites stood with the instruments of David and the priests with the trumpets. They stood, they are not using them yet,

they are ready for the service as soon as Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt-offering on the altar.

S.P. I was wondering what is suggested in the blending of the trumpets and the instruments of David.

J.T. I think the point is to bring out the service of the priests. The trumpet of course is more distinctive, and not so musical. The instruments of David would be peculiarly musical, but the trumpets are more spiritual authority in the priests. So in the service of God as we have it, you feel that a young brother would be wise to wait for a lead rather than to give a lead. Not indeed that they may not give a lead spiritually, because very often a young brother gives a touch that carries the whole position; but I think there ought to be constant concern as to the priestly side. The priestly side refers to spiritual formation, so that they are all in line for the service. The Levites stood and the priests stood and as soon as the burnt-offering began the trumpets began. The priestly side comes first.

E.P. Would the trumpet keep it up to pitch? The instruments of David would be more the stringed instruments.

J.T. I think they refer to the higher tone of the service, the higher feelings of the brethren. Suppose you were at Troas; you sit among the brethren and if Paul were there you would feel, I think I will wait for Paul. Paul got up and he discoursed for a long time. Why did he do that? If a young brother got up and did that the brethren would say, It is quite out of order. But Paul's word is the thing needed at the moment. I believe that is what the service of the priest means; there is no doubt about it, the trumpet is easily heard.

J.W.D. Do you not think all the brethren at Troas would not only like to hear the trumpet in regard to the breaking of bread, but to hear such a servant as Paul giving thanks to the Father?

J.T. I should be very sorry if I were in a meeting with Paul and he did not get an opportunity to speak to God, I should like to give him an opportunity to speak to God.

C.H.H. Is the trumpet associated with the rapture, the ascent spiritually?

J.T. The trump of God, quite so.

J.R.H. At the end of verse 29 evidently a very high note is reached in worship. But in verse 30 "king Hezekiah and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise to Jehovah with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer". And after that "they sang praises with gladness, and bowed their heads and worshipped". Would you not say the worship there reached a higher note? Would that give room for a word as giving a stimulus to a still higher move?

J.T. It looks that way. It is remarkable the distinction made there between the end of verse 29 where "The king and all that were present with him bowed themselves and worshipped", and verse 30 where "king Hezekiah and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise to Jehovah with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer". It is entirely an authoritative spiritual matter. They commanded the Levites to sing praise to Jehovah with the words of David, not only with the instruments of David, but with the words of David and Asaph. The whole of the first book of Psalms you might say is David's, and two-thirds of the third book is Asaph's. So we are now concerned about words; not the music, but the actual hymns that are given out; not only the instruments of David, but the words have to be noted here, "The words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and bowed their heads and worshipped". The Levites here "bowed their heads and worshipped", it is a most exalted side of the position. At the end of verse 29 "The king and all that were present with

him ... worshipped", that is the whole meeting, you might say; but verse 30 is a higher side of the position; the Levites under the direction of the king are using certain words. It is not only the tune, but what kind of words do you use? What kind of hymns do you choose? What are the actual things said? Do you use the best? David and Asaph represent the best of the book of Psalms in that sense.

E.G.McA. Would verse 27 indicate the spiritual condition of a meeting? In verse 28, "And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded, all the time until the burnt-offering was finished". As a result of this we have these heights of worship and praise to God.

J.T. I think so. We are moving up. Verse 30 goes beyond because it says, "They sang praises with gladness, and bowed their heads and worshipped", as if what is going on deepens the feelings God-ward.

T.W. In relation to revival in any locality, do you not think you would look for these elements in it, king, princes, priests and Levites, prophets and people?

J.T. That is where things are worked out. We have spoken of the assembly in the universal aspect of the house, but the actual working out of administrative service is in localities.

C.T. Why is the word 'gladness' added in that verse?

J.T. Gladness is a great matter. We shall see more of it as we go on because we get it in the last verse: "And Hezekiah rejoiced, and all the people, that God had prepared the people". It is one of the finest elements, there is real stimulation in it. Gladness and joy amongst us -- there is real testimony in that! Persons are affected in a joyful way.

REVIVAL (2)

2 Chronicles 30:1 - 27

J.T. We read chapter 29 this morning in order to bring out the idea of revival as instanced in the reign of Hezekiah. It was pointed out that he began at the mature age of twenty-five, and immediately, we are told, he "opened the doors of the house of Jehovah, and repaired them". I thought that the opening of the doors corresponded to Philadelphia where the Lord Jesus speaks of Himself as "the holy, the true; he that has the key of David, he who opens", Revelation 3:7. He has moved in our times in the way of revival in the past century and opened the doors of the house of God to us. It says, "he who opens and no one shall shut". It would mean the entrance into the divine thought, the whole scope of the Lord's mind opened up. Then the cleansing of the house engaged us, how Hezekiah brought the priests and Levites into the open place eastward and spoke to them authoritatively as to their service and the need of cleansing, confessing the guilt of those that preceded him. Then he spoke to them as his sons in a fatherly way, in their dignity as ministers of Jehovah. Then we had the actual account of the cleansing, and the provision made by the king and his princes for the service of God to be resumed; four creatures, seven of each, for the burnt-offering and the sin-offering, so that the service of God was resumed. The burnt-offering began and the song of the Lord began and proceeded. We ended with the joy: "Hezekiah rejoiced", it says in the last verse, "and all the people, that God had prepared the people; for the thing was done suddenly". It was a divine movement, it was not any effort on man's part to work up a revival. It was God's work and His people were ready, He prepared them indeed.

Hence we have in chapter 29: 10 the great fundamental position of revival, things are being done according to order, the saints are being stirred up to give so that there is wealth and joy; in fact it is brought out that "God had prepared the people", a very great matter.

Now what we have to look at next in the revival is the ordered feasts, what characterises the dispensation in the way of stated feasts, beginning with the passover. If there be a revival, God would have things in some sense in keeping with the whole dispensation. There is that which distinguishes our dispensation from the past one and from the future one. I suggested reading chapter 30 to show that we have now arrived at the features which characterise the whole dispensation in the sense of appointed feasts.

A.B. It says at the close of chapter 29, "And the service of the house of Jehovah was set in order"; not exactly the house but the service.

J.T. Very good, preparing for what we are saying. I think God is concerned now with the features of the dispensation. Each dispensation has its own features, and ours has its features. This chapter would provide for that.

J.W.D. What is meant by the expression, "all Israel and Judah" (verse 1)?

J.T. It is a universal thought. There is only one assembly; the revival is not a partisan matter. It took place of course in a very small way in certain countries, but it spread out to all Israel, to the whole assembly. God has nothing less than that in His mind. It would show us that no movement of God is partisan, but the whole assembly must be in mind. The assembly gives character to the dispensation; we must have the whole thought.

S.McC. That would be in mind in the thought of rallying to Jerusalem. It says in the end of verse 3,

"Neither had the people been gathered together to Jerusalem".

J.T. In the end of verse 5 it says, "because they had not held it for a long time as it was written". They may have held it but it was not held "as it was written". The idea of Jerusalem would be taken up from Exodus 20:24: "In all places where I shall make my name to be remembered, I will come unto thee, and bless thee". That was where the holy convocations were to be held three times in the year. There were seven of them, but three of them were selected according to Deuteronomy 16 as representing the spiritual side of the feasts that were all to be held as appointed. So the position is maintained, the dispensation is maintained in the recognition of these feasts.

G.A.T. Would you say cleansing must take place before this chapter could come in, as we had this morning? Evil must be judged and put away.

J.T. That is the teaching of chapter 29, and is encouraging to look at. There are healthy conditions in the way of wealth, spiritual wealth, so that God is served in chapter 29. Now He would have recourse to His special appointments in the way of public convocations, what is in keeping with the dispensation, and on that account I think the Spirit of God has greatly stressed the Lord's supper for us. It has a greater place now perhaps than it had in the revival.

J.B. Why are Ephraim and Manasseh not mentioned in Israel? It says that he "wrote letters also to Ephraim and Manasseh". Why is that?

J.T. Ephraim and Manasseh were representing the tribe of Joseph. Joseph had the birthright, given to him on account of Reuben's failure (1 Chronicles 5:1); that is, they came into a leading place in the dispensation of old, and there was evidently rivalry between them and Judah. Ephraim and Manasseh

stand for one thought, that is leadership. But God had recourse to Judah, and Judah got the first place, that is through David. I think the allusion is to any rival elements; they are to be met and if possible to be won over in a righteous way. I think that is why these two are mentioned specially. The general thought is that "Hezekiah sent to all Israel and Judah, and wrote letters also to Ephraim and Manasseh"; they were specially singled out for the letters, as if God would say to any rival element. You are wanted, if you can come on God's terms.

J.W.D. In Luke 22 following the inauguration of the Supper there was also strife amongst them as to who should be the greatest. Is that a similar thought?

J.T. That is good. It shows the readiness of the flesh to show itself in rivalry, "Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good", Romans 12:21. That is what comes out here.

J.R.H. Would you say Hezekiah had a great spiritual unity in view in which Ephraim was not to envy Judah?

J.T. It is anticipative of that, the final restoration of Israel. Ezekiel brings that out. They are to be brought together as one to Christ, one stick, "Ephraim will not envy Judah, and Judah will not trouble Ephraim", Isaiah 11:13. Hezekiah would show he is in keeping with that; he would have them on divine terms. So it says that "they established a decree to make proclamation throughout Israel from Beer-sheba even to Dan, that they should come to hold the passover to Jehovah the God of Israel, at Jerusalem; because they had not held it for a long time as it was written. And the couriers went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, return to Jehovah the God of Abraham, Isaac, and

Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria. And be not like your fathers and like your brethren, who transgressed against Jehovah the God of their fathers, so that he gave them up to desolation, as ye see. Now, harden not your necks, as your fathers; yield yourselves to Jehovah, and come to his sanctuary, which he has sanctified for ever; and serve Jehovah your God, that the fierceness of his anger may turn away from you. For if ye return to Jehovah, your brethren and your children shall find compassion with those that have carried them captive, so that they shall come again unto this land; for Jehovah your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return to him" (verses 5 - 9), a very remarkable appeal from Hezekiah in the grace and in the Spirit of Christ, overcoming rivalry in these words conveyed. There is no compromising the truth. We love our brethren and we want them on divine terms and only on divine terms. There is every encouragement to return; the Lord is ready to help.

J.W. Is this a city matter? The posts passed through from city to city in conveyance of the message. What bearing has that on what you say?

J.T. I suppose cities are representative of local responsibility. A city is not like a nation, a city is local. It may be metropolitan but it has local responsibility I think. What do you think yourself?

J.W. I thought so. The message would come to the local position.

J.T. The Lord said, "Ye shall not have completed the cities of Israel until the Son of man be come" (Matthew 10:23), meaning that the cities as visited would represent the whole country. He sent the seventy out "two and two before his face into every city and place where he himself was about to come", Luke 10:1.

Rem. The Lord would adjust all the saints. Each Lord's day morning is a fresh occasion for adjustment in the locality.

J.T. That is a right feeling with which to sit down at the Lord's supper, to remember our brethren, those who are not present. But we can go on because of those who are present. "all Israel that were present", 2 Chronicles 31:1. But you miss those who are absent, as the Lord Himself said, "But the nine, where are they?". But you never want them on the ground of compromise, of accommodation, always on divine terms.

Rem. At Corinth matters had to be judged. They were saying, "I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ", 1 Corinthians 1:12. Until that had been dealt with the Supper could not be properly taken as he describes in chapter 11.

J.T. That is a fact, the divisions were there, they came together in divisions and they carried the divisions into the meeting. It brings out the discipline of God. Moreover Paul said, "it is not to eat the Lord's supper". Hence we are clear about that side, no party can have the Lord's supper; it is a universal thought and belongs to the whole assembly seen in any locality. But "there exist divisions among you", he says. "When ye come therefore together into one place, it is not to eat the Lord's supper".

C.H.H. I was wondering if this would correspond in any way to Paul's final invitation to Israel in the Acts, inviting the whole nation into what was to characterise christianity, to come into the new dispensation. They rejected it, but some received it. When he was in his own hired house he sent for them and gave them a final word.

J.T. "The Jews went away, having great reasoning among themselves", Acts 28:29. He had quoted Isaiah 6:9, 10 to them. It is a judicial pronouncement.

People may go on in their position to a point in which the matter is fixed and there is no hope for them. So that they went away, "Paul having spoken one word" to them from Isaiah. This is a judicial pronouncement as to Israel being shut out from their privileges now because of their hardness. So he says, "Lo, we turn to the nations", (Acts 13:46); and "This salvation of God has been sent to the nations; they also will hear it", Acts 28:28. That is the position now, a fixed state of things. Since Paul said that, the Jews as such have been left under the governmental dealings with limitations of God. It is a very solemn matter. It fits in here with Hezekiah; it implies that if Ephraim and Manasseh are to have part in the passover it must be on the divine terms.

S.P. Would these letters in going out to all these cities throughout the land carry the moral influence of Jerusalem as connected with this revival?

J.T. God had not yet rejected Jerusalem, He was still owning it. It was the place where He had placed His name according to Exodus 20:24. So that the door was open: "He that has the key of David, he who opens and no one shall shut, and shuts and no one shall open", Revelation 3:7. This is an open door to them still. And so in Laodicea, "Behold, I stand at the door and am knocking; if any one hear my voice and open the door, I will come in unto him and sup with him, and he with me", Revelation 3:20. He is knocking at the door of Ephraim and Manasseh. Who will open to him? Some of them do, that is a comfort.

E.G.McA. Is the reference to gathering to Jerusalem the principle that overcomes any independent local features? We are together on the Lord's day morning in the light of the whole assembly, shutting out any local independence.

J.T. That is important here because Jerusalem is the appointed place. It goes back to Exodus 20:24,

where the service of God is formally set up: "Where I shall make my name to be remembered"; and there is a description there of the altar of earth and the altar of stone. God is insisting on what He will have now. Any local party might say, We will have the Lord's supper, and of course they could in the outward form; but according to what is just remarked we can say definitely that it is not the Lord's supper. It is on party lines. Jerusalem meets the divine thought as to where it stands, anything else is spurious.

J.W.D. Do you think Jerusalem stands for Paul's ministry?

J.T. I think so. David went to Jerusalem "against the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land", and took the city. It had a great place in the mind of God. In Melchizedek we have the thought of Jerusalem; we have it in Joshua, in Judges, and we have it in 1 Samuel. David took the head of the giant there. It is the divine position in the mind of God that He never gives up, and spiritual understanding lays hold of it so that anything else is spurious. Samaria was a rival to Jerusalem. The woman said to the Lord, "Ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship". The Lord said, We say right, that is the divine mind. But then that went just so far, and we understand now what it means when He says, "The hour is coming when ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father", John 4:21. That is, the geographical thought is not reckoned any more, but the spiritual thought is, and Jerusalem is Jerusalem still. It represents the place where God causes His name to be remembered. Divine 'cause' is not what any man undertakes to do; as in the end of chapter 29, it is the people that "God had prepared". God must be the great cause of all these matters: "where I shall make my name to be remembered, I will come unto thee, and

bless thee". I might say, I am going to start a meeting. That does not count at all, that is spurious.

E.G.McA. "And they rose up and took away the altars that were in Jerusalem; and they took away all the incense-altars, and cast them into the torrent Kidron". Is that the effect of it?

J.T. "The torrent Kidron" is, I think, the moral side of the matter, how all these evils are dealt with. It is not simply Christ, but the death of Christ, everything must conform to that. So that our fellowship is the fellowship, the true fellowship, it is the fellowship of God's Son, the fellowship of His death, and the fellowship of the Spirit.

Ques. "We, being many, are one loaf", 1 Corinthians 10:17. Is that the universal thought?

J.T. Yes, 'we' not 'ye'; it is the universal thought.

J.W.D. "This is my body, which is for you", 1 Corinthians 11:24. Is "you" the local thought?

J.T. It is more the gentiles there. In the way it is put in Corinthians it is for the gentiles, for such as they, I think. It is not 'given' there, but "for you"; it is our portion as well as that of those that were at Jerusalem with the twelve.

Ques. Are you suggesting that the Lord's supper is not optional with me?

J.T. Oh no, divine things are never optional. All divine requirements are imperative.

G.A.T. In verse 10 there is one class of people who "mocked them", and in verse 11 another class who humbled themselves. Would they be the class who can partake of the Supper rightly?

J.T. In verse 11 they open their doors, "Behold, I stand at the door and am knocking; if any one hear my voice and open the door, I will come in unto him", Revelation 3:20. In verse 10 the couriers "passed from city to city through the country of

Ephraim and Manasseh, even to Zebulun; but they laughed them to scorn and mocked them". That was the general attitude. But then verse 11 says, "Nevertheless certain of Asher and Manasseh and of Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem". That is a comfort and I think should stimulate us to keep on, to put the truth before our brethren who are turned aside. Some "humbled themselves"; even if it is only one it is worth while.

J.W. In view of being brought into "the unity of the faith", Ephesians 4:13. God gave them "one heart" (verse 12).

J.T. Quite so, that is very good. "The hand of God was also upon Judah to give them one heart to do the commandment of the king and of the princes, by the word of Jehovah. And there assembled at Jerusalem much people to hold the feast of unleavened bread in the second month, a very great congregation". So that we need not be discouraged.

E.G.McA. What bearing has this feast of unleavened bread in this chapter on the inside clearance of what is evil in the house of God in the previous chapter? Is this more the external side of the truth?

J.T. I think it is the external position, as in 1 Corinthians. Galatians and Ephesians are more the inside position. I think God is concerned about having the dispensation restored in its orderliness; that is to characterise the dispensation publicly.

Rem. We need some more help on that matter as to whether the Supper is optional or whether it should be regular with those breaking bread.

J.T. It is not optional; and those who think it is and sometimes refrain from taking it, those who are nominally in fellowship, may think that they are immune from judgment because they are not doing anything wrong in a positive way. But chapter 9 of

Numbers would show that one who fails to keep the passover -- one who can do it and does not -- shall, after allowing him full grace to come in the second month instead of the first month, be cut off; cut off not because of what he is doing but because of what he is not doing.

G.A.T. Is it your thought that if I wilfully stay away from the Supper, maybe for a few Lord's days and then go back again, I should be dealt with on that account?

J.T. Well, of course it is a question of what is underneath an attitude like that. No chapters suggest more grace than the chapters we are reading. Numbers 9 is a drastic description as to delinquents, those who are delinquent in regard to what marks the dispensation. The passover was the outstanding convocation, the first one; anyone who was delinquent there was cut off most drastically. He is simply cut off. But if it was a case of one Lord's day or two or three, that would need to be inquired into. Each case has to be dealt with separately as it comes up, according to the facts governing it. The Lord looks to the local brethren for discernment in connection with such; it would be a question of judging the attitude.

Ques. Is local administration carried on on the basis of precedent?

J.T. Precedent has something to do with it. The word 'precedent' has a great place in legal administration in the world. What one judge allows is for another to act upon and what one court holds is held by another to act upon. But when we come to divine things the only precedent we can go by is what we have recorded in Scripture. The book of the Acts is peculiarly a book of precedents rather than injunctions, not what we are enjoined to do, but what was done. It is what was done by the apostles and early brethren. It is for us to discern and compare

what may exist now with what is written; the whole position reverts to priestly discernment. Is this the precedent we can go by? Therefore precedent can only apply up to a point; what goes with it is the discernment of the priests locally and their judgment. "Why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?" Luke 12:57. Whatever others think, do ye what is right, that is a charge put on the local company. Therefore we have to consider the facts as well as the precedent and the injunctions governing it. I think it is important in assembly administration as to what we are governed by. It may be that London has done this or that, but that will not do in itself. We first have to determine the facts of the case. The types show that these facts have to be weighed in a priestly way; priests are to do things; that is the spiritual element. There must always be a spiritual lead in a local meeting; we are not to be communistic. A local lead is always contemplated. We are told in Acts 14 that Paul and Barnabas went away "having chosen them elders in each assembly", meaning, We are going back to Antioch and we shall not be here to help the brethren, but we will elect these elders, persons who are qualified to rule, that is to give a spiritual lead in the locality. So that in Derbe or Lystra if anything came up amongst them they would not necessarily have to write to Paul about it, although he would be glad to answer their questions. The first epistle to the Corinthians was an answer to inquiry largely. He is ready to answer their questions, but then the idea is that they are able to deal with matters. The Lord would be with them. These elders are definitely selected by the apostles to keep things going according to God. Therefore when a matter comes up it is for them to determine the facts and weigh them and then apply the principle, the divine instruction given covering this particular matter. And I think it is of

vast importance that we should know how to deal with matters in each local company.

C.H.H. That necessitates spirituality more than gift.

J.T. Well, it does; eldership is no question of gift, it is divine choice. God puts a man forward because by his qualifications he is manifestly suited for the service.

Rem. In John 8 the case brought before the Lord indicates that the priestly element was lacking in connection with the woman. They were not able to settle the case themselves.

J.T. Quite so.

S.McC. If there are unsettled issues in our localities it would be a great exercise to those who are supposed to give a lead in the matter.

J.T. The Lord would encourage us in our localities to settle matters. For instance, if it was a question of ordinary practical righteousness, set the least esteemed in the assembly to handle that. Remember we are to judge angels; we are to judge the world. Why cannot we learn to judge now? The Lord would put that upon us; we ought to be able to look after matters. Not that the apostle would not answer their inquiries, but still the assemblies were set up with elders. I believe the Lord would help us to determine the facts and then to apply divine principles.

C.H.H. Something too difficult might occur amongst the tribes for the local judge to determine. In that case they were to send for the judge who would be "in those days".

J.T. That is good. There are not only elders, they being local, but there are persons who are gifted and available universally. There is the gift of government, for instance, and persons with the word of wisdom ought to be used, if available, whether local or otherwise.

J.W.D. The elders are more connected with discipline, not with matters connected with the public framework of the truth.

J.T. Quite so; so they chose elders in each assembly. Titus was to "establish elders in each city", Titus 1:5. The elder in a city was to have jurisdiction in his own city. In Acts 14 they chose elders, as if to say, We want local companies able to stand on their own feet and look after matters. God said "I ... taught Ephraim to walk" (Hosea 11:3); and we want local meetings to walk. Not that they cannot write and ask questions, they can; but the responsibility attaches to local persons.

C.H.H. Do you make a distinction between the elders in Titus and the elders in each assembly?

J.T. In Acts 14 it is just elders in each assembly, but in Titus we have a further thought of ordaining elders in every city. So that if there is a subdivision in the city all the elders in the city would have rule there; the elder in the city has rule in the city.

Ques. Is not the thought of an elder that he takes care of matters so as not to burden the assembly with too many unnecessary details?

J.T. Quite so. Confidence enables us to settle a great many things without going to the assembly at all. The assembly is the last resource; that is what Matthew 18 would teach us. Still, we must not be settling things in the care meeting, or have leading brothers settling matters among themselves; we must always have the assembly before us.

Ques. Peter tells the elders to "Shepherd the flock of God", 1 Peter 5:2.

J.T. They were to be examples to the flock. Our brother here wants to know more about why the Lord said in His message to Paul, "This is my body, which is for you". The word 'given' is not there in 1 Corinthians 11, it is just "for you". I think the Lord would convey to the gentiles at that time that

He was thinking of them as well as of the Jewish christians.

J.W. Would it be the truth of Paul's ministry finding expression in that way, in the "you", Paul being the apostle of the gentiles?

J.T. I think the Lord had that in mind. Paul says, "For I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you", 1 Corinthians 11:23. The Lord would have in mind that the gentiles had an equal place in His affections with the Jewish christians, because the primary introduction of the Lord's supper was in connection with the Jewish remnant.

C.H.H. Why does the passover set forth here in chapter 30 exceed anything which Moses ever wrote? Would it be something similar to 1 Corinthians 5 extending to the Lord's supper? Here they had peace-offerings, heave-offerings and burnt-offerings.

J.T. I think Deuteronomy would furnish some instruction for this, there were other offerings besides the passover lamb itself. It seems that there is increase in the passover, and the Lord partook of it at the last passover supper with all that entered into it. It would include all that entered into it in the way of spiritual addition, because we have things added later that are not mentioned in Exodus. As to the Lord's supper, we know that features are added to it in the Lord's message to Paul that we do not get at the beginning. For instance, he would decry the Lord's supper being held house-wise; not that a brother's house could not be the meeting room, but he would decry the thought of a christian adding the Lord's supper to one of his own meals, which I think was a custom at the beginning, according to 1 Corinthians 11. Paul dissociates the Lord's supper from their houses; he says, "Have ye not then houses for eating and drinking?" (verse 22). It is remarkable how he connects the assembly with the Lord's body in a peculiar way.

Ques. Would you help us a little more about the houses?

J.T. They were partaking of the Lord's supper in relation to ordinary meals, and they were putting those who had no houses to shame and despising the assembly of God, "Have ye not then houses for eating and drinking?", he says. Ordinary household matters should not come into the assembly at all. He dissociates the assembly from all household influences; the Lord's supper belongs properly to the assembly and cannot be taken in any private way.

C.H.H. The additional thought is in 1 Corinthians 10, "We, being many, are one loaf, one body". That is not given in the gospels.

S.McC. Supposing there was a brother living in a certain locality isolated from the brethren; would it be right to visit him and take the Supper with him?

J.T. That would need to be inquired into; it is a question of the history of the place. Supposing the assembly had been there and had dwindled down, and perhaps there were only one or two: you would have to consider whether the Lord would still recognise them; and if there are any there, why is there not the Lord's supper? I am only saying these matters need careful consideration. You cannot lay down what should happen, it is a question of the conditions there.

C.H.H. "Come and let us return unto Jehovah, for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live before his face", Hosea 6:1, 2. Might revival be on this line?

J.T. Quite so, "Return to Jehovah", that is the word here. They wrote letters that they should come to Jerusalem, as we read it already, "Harden not your necks, as your fathers; yield yourselves to Jehovah, and come to his sanctuary, which he has

sanctified for ever; and serve Jehovah your God, that the fierceness of his anger may turn away from you. For if ye return to Jehovah, your brethren and your children shall find compassion with those that have carried them captive, so that they shall come again unto this land". According to the state of our souls God will act in a remarkable way with the very "powers that be" to help us. The point is, "if ye return"; there is needed a state of soul to come back to God, to His sanctuary, a most touching appeal to any one who has turned his back on the truth.

E.P. Would it fit in with the thought of Psalm 122:5: "For there are set thrones for judgment, the thrones of the house of David"?

J.T. Just so.

A.H.P. I was wondering whether what is being said would tend to help us as to the dignity of the local assembly, and then as to the local assembly recognising the dignity of the assembly in its universal setting.

J.T. What we are at here is the importance of returning, and the ministry of the Lord would help us in our attitude toward persons who are turned away. I think Hezekiah's letters here are very beautiful and helpful and they are touching. We want you all back, he is saying, Jerusalem is Jerusalem still; God has not changed His mind about it, that is where He has recorded His name, where Israel's males came up three times in a year. The first convocation is the passover. Here it is! Why should you not have part in this? Why should you be exempt? He encourages them all, saying, "If ye return to Jehovah, your brethren and your children shall find compassion with those that have carried them captive, so that they shall come again unto this land; for Jehovah your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return to him". It is a most appealing word,

and if we regard it God will act in our circumstances. If I move in this way toward God others will be helped; they will take account of what I am doing and it will help others to do the same thing.

G.A.T. What you say is very encouraging, as to what we find when we return. I have to go to my brethren in this day and what should I expect there?

J.T. The thing is that the saints reflect what is in the mind of God. The assembly is intended to reflect the grace of heaven, so a returning one finds the grace of heaven amongst the saints. I think that is what the Lord meant in John 20:23, "whose soever sins ye remit"; grace is in the assembly.

E.P. In his second epistle Paul is concerned that that spirit should be amongst the saints at Corinth. I was thinking of the personal appeal of Paul, "I ... entreat you by the meekness and gentleness of the Christ", 2 Corinthians 10:1.

J.T. Quite so.

S.P. Would you suggest that in Ezra there was a movement in the hearts of the people in captivity before there was a movement in the heart of Cyrus sovereignly?

J.T. Exactly. God moves with us and then with the rulers; the issue is in the state of the people. If the state is right with us God will move. I have thought a great deal of that in connection with our brethren on the Continent now. The question arises -- Is the state of the people right? If the people are right God works with the rulers.

H.B. Would you say those who have been turned aside may be reached with this message?

J.T. Yes. The post here is rather an official courier, it would not be just any messenger at all. You may be sure Hezekiah selected the right people, spiritual men, to go with this message. I believe it would refer today to the ministry that is current amongst us. The work of those who have the truth

is largely amongst our brethren who have turned aside, to get them back. The Lord is ready to receive them: "Behold, I stand at the door and am knocking; if any one hear my voice and open the door, I will come in", Revelation 3:20. There are not only knocks; many have the knocks, that is, bereavements, sickness, financial troubles and what not; those are the knocks but the voice is not heard in them. Then, "if any one hear my voice" -- it is not the knock, it is the voice of Christ that appeals to me -- "and open the door, I will come in unto him and sup with him, and he with me". That "he with me" would mean that He would bring me into the assembly.

C.H.H. Would it be similar to a tree cut down, yet its roots are in the ground? The ministry is capable of restoring one if the roots are in the ground.

J.T. That is worth considering. The actual word is, "There is hope for a tree, if it be cut down it will sprout again", Job 14:7. There are other references which bear on it, as in Ecclesiastes 11:3, "in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be". That is, it would finally be found there. But Job says there is hope for a tree if it is cut down, that is, some hand has acted on it. A fall does not mean that any hand has acted on it, it falls because of decay or rottenness. Wherever it falls its position is fixed, "there it shall be". But if a divine hand is operating on it, there is hope of it even if it lies there. It is worth looking at Job 14:7 - 9: "it will sprout again, and its tender branch will not cease; though its root grow old in the earth, and its stock die in the ground, yet through the scent of water it will bud, and put forth boughs like a young plant". It is a very remarkable thing, I think; it is the difference between a person who falls through moral decay, so that there is nothing to support it -- it goes and there it is -- and one who is cut down. There is hope for that

one; God is cutting down a live tree; there is something there that God is dealing with. It is in the ground. It says, "Though its root grow old in the earth, and its stock die in the ground", yet there is something in it. Why did any hand cut it down if not for a purpose? If you apply it to God, there is hope for it; if you see God is dealing with a man governmentally, judicially, there is hope for him. He has the sense of scent, he desires the word of God and springs up and brings forth "boughs like a young plant". That I think is worth while going over; it is very remarkable how God deals with His people.

Ques. Does not verse 18 confirm that? "For a multitude of the people, many of Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, and they ate the passover otherwise than it was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them saying, Jehovah, who is good, forgive every one that has directed his heart to seek God". It would bring out whether there are any roots there, any work of God. It is the dispensational right of God to pardon according to the work of God in them.

J.T. There are new names here. When the recovery takes place it spreads out wide, not only Ephraim and Manasseh but others as well, Issachar and Zebulun. They had not cleansed themselves, and they ate the passover otherwise than it was written. They are exposed in what they are doing, but then there is priestly grace available when people are on these lines. They are coming back with wrong thoughts, but they are coming back. They are partaking of the thing, not rightly, but still there is a priestly touch here. Hezekiah prays for them and he says to God, "Forgive every one that has directed his heart to seek God, Jehovah the God of his fathers, although not according to the purification of the sanctuary. And Jehovah hearkened to

Hezekiah, and healed the people". That is a beautiful reference to the Lord's priestly intercession for us. The point is, are you going at all? Is your heart with the brethren? Have you got it in your heart to be with your brethren in a right way?

E.G.McA. Would Hezekiah see there what you referred to in regard to the tree cut down? It budded and put forth boughs. Would they return in that way?

J.T. I think it represents the scent of water. Hezekiah's message would be water, the word of God, and there is sensitiveness as to it. "Jehovah, who is good", very beautiful; of course Hezekiah's beseeching should be with us, the spirit of intercession for our brethren so that Jehovah might help them.

E.G.McA. In any one turning his face toward the brethren again you would expect to see some evidence of divine work as in this passage in Job.

J.T. Talk to him and see what he says; then you get at the root. If he says, 'I liked that word last night', he has the scent of water. He sees God in it, in the word of God; he has the scent of water, and you say there is certainly hope of that man.

Rem. In Acts 2:37 they say, "What shall we do, brethren?". The scent of water had its effect.

J.T. Exactly, at Peter's address they repented. It was the word of God to them.

J.R.H. Would the scent of water be in Paul's mind when he said, "What will ye? that I come to you with a rod; or in love, and in a spirit of meekness?" 1 Corinthians 4:21.

J.T. He was counting on it and he counted on it rightly because Titus came back with great joy in his heart. One has often thought of the meeting between Paul and Titus. What joy it afforded Paul and what joy it afforded Titus because the Corinthians were affected by the word of God!

G.A.T. You would say the scent of water is like enjoying the ministry?

J.T. You can tell by the way people speak of the ministry; not simply that they enjoy it, but how it affects them.

E.G.McA. I got help from your reference to the scent of water. There is something in them that will respond. We are not to cast them off, saying, They never were any good; but you would find in speaking to them that there is still something of God.

J.T. Like the trunk of a tree, we must never give them up, because one day something may happen and they will respond.

J.W. Would there be a connection with Eutychus falling from the window in Acts 20 and Paul coming down?

J.T. That is more than the word of God; Paul's embrace is a great thing. "His life is in him", he says. He knew the thing was there, his life was in him.

S.P. You say, You must never give them up. Would you amplify that?

J.T. I mean such as Job describes; but if it is a tree that has fallen as Ecclesiastes says, "toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be", Ecclesiastes 11:3. But if it be cut down -- if you think of a brother who has sinned seriously, but God is dealing with him, and when you talk to him about the Lord Jesus, about the word of God, there is response in him and he is not argumentative -- that man has got the sense of scent. The word 'scent' is important. There are five senses. The writer in the Hebrews refers to those who have their senses exercised. As soon as a man exercises his sense of scent you must keep on with him; presently he becomes like a young plant, not the trunk of a tree any more. Maybe he was a brother who had some distinction; he has forfeited

it now, he has got to begin over again, like a young plant.

E.P. Do you think Job himself is the tree he is speaking of? Elihu had words for God and then God heals him at the close.

J.T. Quite so. I think Job said a great deal that he did not understand, but the book is a valuable account of what he said. What he said was right, only in the wrong position; he spoke "words ... without knowledge" (Job 35:16); he did not know what he was talking about. The things are right; as a matter of fact he is using the figure of the tree in this chapter, not knowing that he is describing a man whom God is disciplining, and that he himself was that man.

G.W. Nebuchadnezzar was a tree cut down. His understanding returned to him and he "blessed the Most High", Daniel 4:34.

J.T. The stump was there.

J.B. You get in Hosea 14:8, "Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? ... I am like a green fir-tree -- From me is thy fruit found".

J.T. Quite so, very good.

C.H.H. Would the prophecy of Hosea as quoted correspond with Hezekiah? It is so coloured with the knowledge of God.

J.T. I think Hezekiah represents the Spirit of Christ vested in benign authority. Throughout these two chapters he speaks with remarkable authority, but he is very gracious; for instance, he has the right to speak to the priests and Levites but the second time he calls them "my sons", a gracious way of dealing with souls. So I think he reflects beautifully the Spirit of Christ in all this revival. How successful he is as we move on in these chapters! Success marks every verse. It is encouraging for us to go on. God has been working and is working and let us go on in that light.

G.A.T. If a brother returns to us who has been away, how should we receive him? Should we shake hands with him?

J.T. It is a question of each case being dealt with according to its own facts. You are not holding anything against him. Things have to be dealt with but you are not enlarging on his guilt, "Whose soever sins ye remit" (John 20:23), as if the Lord were saying, I leave the matter with you. It is for the local brethren to decide as to this man; the Lord has confidence in the brethren. Matthew would say, "Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven" (chapter 18: 18). Matthew is severe and we are entitled to use severity if the case requires it. The local brethren are the ones who should know. You may be sure that Hezekiah was the principal person with whom God wrought; you may be sure God had taken him in hand well before he brought him into this public position to represent His mind. If He is going to work He will prepare men, discipline them beforehand. Take a man like Elijah, we have not a single word about his previous history, but he has had a previous history. He said to Ahab, "There shall not be dew nor rain these years, except by my word", 1 Kings 17:1. He had been with God.

Ques. So Paul says, "Not a novice"; is that the thought?

J.T. God chooses his man for the work, you may be sure of that. But we must go on if we are to finish our chapter. It says in verse 21, "And the children of Israel, that were present at Jerusalem, held the feast of unleavened bread seven days with great gladness". You may be sure if the thing is right and rightly entered upon, God is with us; He loves to be with us and make it a success. It goes on to say, "And the Levites and the priests praised Jehovah day by day, with the instruments of praise

to Jehovah. And Hezekiah spoke consolingly to all the Levites that had understanding in the good knowledge of Jehovah". This calls attention to the brethren who are serving, who have understanding of the mind of God. "And they ate the feast-offerings the seven days, sacrificing peace-offerings, and extolling Jehovah the God of their fathers". You can see how successful all this is, how Hezekiah is exercising the Spirit of Christ in it. He spoke consolingly to persons who had a good knowledge of God. Then they were "sacrificing peace-offerings", which is a new thought here referring to a general state of felicity, a happy state of things amongst the brethren. They are not occupied with this, and saying, How well we are getting on! They are making much of God, "extolling Jehovah the God of their fathers". The answer to all this is that "the whole congregation took counsel to observe other seven days; and they observed the seven days with gladness. For Hezekiah king of Judah gave to the congregation as heave-offering: a thousand bullocks and seven thousand sheep; and the princes gave to the congregation a thousand bullocks and ten thousand sheep; and a great number of priests hallowed themselves. And the whole congregation of Judah, with the priests and the Levites, and all the congregation that came out of Israel, and the strangers that came out of the land of Israel, and that dwelt in Judah, rejoiced. And there was great joy in Jerusalem; for since the time of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel, there had not been the like in Jerusalem". I think what is to be observed in these closing verses is the great increase. Having entered upon a course of revival brethren are brought into it and continue in it. There is increase, there is great increase so that they are able to carry on seven days more. It shows the sustained wealth of the people. And then we have the thought that there had not been anything

like this since the time of Solomon, a tribute to what was there, double seven days, alluding to the ability to carry on for fourteen days.

Rem. It is spontaneous.

J.T. Quite so.

J.H. What is the thought in the priests merging with the Levites as in the last verse?

J.T. "And the priests the Levites arose and blessed the people"; we already alluded to that this morning. In Deuteronomy and Joshua there is hardly any distinction made between priests and Levites; those who are serving are in a state of priesthood. It alludes to the great spiritual wealth that accrued here in this revival. You can hardly distinguish between the priests and the Levites, they are the same in truth; in antitype they are the same person only they are becoming more spiritual, "And their voice was heard, and their prayer came up to his holy habitation, to the heavens". What a wonderful result that the whole thing goes up to heaven! How much accrues to God out of all this! I think the Lord is helping the brethren into what develops for God, the highest conception.

Ques. "The priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them Jehovah thy God hath chosen to do service unto him, and to bless in the name of Jehovah", Deuteronomy 21:5. Is that the thought?

J.T. They have reached the full thought; that is a good point. These two chapters show that this revival leads us up to what is for God.

J.R.H. The climax is in full accord with Solomon's greatest day, in connection with God's holy habitation in heaven. Does this final verse show that?

J.T. I think so; a double time, to observe other seven days. That is, there is enough spiritual power to proceed with other seven days. That same thing had happened in Solomon's dedication of the house, that is what is alluded to here. Not that this exceeded

Solomon's day, but rather that there had been nothing like it since Solomon: "There had not been the like in Jerusalem".

G.A.T. Who do the princes stand for, and the strangers in Israel?

J.T. I think the princes would allude to those of spiritual wealth who could do things for others. Strangers would be those who came by invitation from the other tribes; they too had part in this joy.

C.H.H. Would verse 23 indicate that Hezekiah and the princes taking the spiritual lead had secured the whole congregation?

J.T. It is a remarkable thing, "the whole congregation"; we are ready to go home from meetings like this after two or three days. It is right enough in a way but the point is, Am I equal to a prolonged spiritual occasion, or are fleshly instincts predominant with me so that I can only stand two or three days? The point here is the state, and that all comes about through a process. These are good times and we want to go on with them, they "took counsel to observe other seven days".

REVIVAL (3)

2 Chronicles 34:14 - 33; 2 Chronicles 35:1 - 19

J.T. We can see, I believe, in this inquiry that each revival in Israel has an especial feature. So in Hezekiah's revival we see the wealth developed, and then how they had recourse to what should mark the dispensation publicly. It is obvious that in a revival attention has to be paid to moral conditions first; and as we saw in the reading yesterday morning, the process brings out the latent wealth that is there, increasing as the feast goes on and as the season of blessing goes on. In chapter 30 there was the passover which suggests what marks the dispensation, what marked that dispensation; the Lord's supper correspondingly marks ours, and the public service of God, the order that attends it. Thus I think the brethren will have seen that this line of truth is most important for us, verified in our own times in the revival that God has graciously granted in our dispensation, into which we have come and which we are now enjoying. Our responsibility is to maintain it. There was nothing, we are told, like that which Hezekiah inaugurated in the way of revival since the days of Solomon. It lasted fourteen days, it is a double feast marked by joy.

Now Josiah's passover has its own features. It is still the passover but it excels Hezekiah's in that it is held on the fourteenth day of the first month instead of the fourteenth day of the second month, meaning that there was more readiness on this occasion of Josiah's than on Hezekiah's. The outstanding feature here, I think, is the discovery of the book of the law, which is another great feature that God is reviving -- the authority of Scripture as over against the lawlessness which is marking current professed ministry around us. And another thing that may be mentioned in a preliminary way is the

youthfulness of this monarch. We are told he was eight years old when he began to reign. This is a feature we do well to observe because God is verifying it I believe, indeed I know, in the work in the young amongst us. Since the borrowed principle of Sunday Schools has been exposed and set aside there has been more divine work in very young people. The work leads into the assembly faster than it used to from those schools, for the young get right terms and right feelings amongst the brethren, where they should be and where they should learn. So I think the Spirit of God would remind us in Josiah's service how the young, very young persons, may come into the service. We have his age given first when he began to reign, and then what happened in the eighth year of his reign, in the twelfth year of his reign, and the eighteenth year of his reign, the last bringing him up to the age of twenty-six in which his greatest service was rendered.

A.B. The cleansing and purging seem to enter into this. Would you say something about that?

J.T. Hezekiah's exercise was to open the doors of the house of God and to repair them and then to cleanse the temple. But here Josiah is concerned first of all in the twelfth year of his reign, that is when he was twenty years of age, "to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the Asherahs, and the graven images, and the molten images. And they broke down the altars of the Baals in his presence; and the sun-pillars that were on high above them he cut down; and the Asherahs and the graven images and the molten images he broke in pieces, and made dust of them and strewed it upon the graves of those that had sacrificed to them; and he burned the bones of the priests upon their altars, and purged Judah and Jerusalem. And so did he in the cities of Manasseh and Ephraim and Simeon, even to Naphtali, in their ruins round about; and

he broke down the altars, and beat the Asherahs and the graven images into powder, and cut down all the sun-pillars throughout the land of Israel, and returned to Jerusalem". This is a remarkable range of service, the greatest service rendered by a young servant. But we have to take him not only as a person but as a principle of youthful energy in whomsoever it may be seen acting authoritatively for the general purgation of the saints. There is a ministry which deals with the house of God and the service of God and a ministry that deals with the general state of the saints. The latter requires courage and moral authority, and I think that is seen here. The royal power that this king exercises is symbolical or typical of the authority of Christ exercised now in the power of the Spirit, which will always accompany spiritual ministry.

C.H.H. He seems to be acting on instincts rather than on writing at first.

J.T. That is very good, showing that the work of God is true to itself even before the Scriptures are understood, so that he is ready for the Scriptures when they are brought to him. He is not like a man that goes into things himself and disregards Scripture; he may be ignorant of Scripture but his instincts are right and when the Scriptures are brought to him he is most submissive to them. When the book is found he is affected by it. He accepts responsibility in the eighth year of his reign: "While he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father; and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem". That is a word for the present time so that we should not despise youth; on the other hand they should see to it that they are not to be despised. If they are marked by a spirit like this they will not be despised.

J.W.D. What would you say about brothers in a care meeting having difficulty in affording young boys

and girls the right to break bread because they fear that afterwards they might not be able to stand?

J.T. That is the reason, I think, that the Spirit of God stresses these stages in Josiah's life, showing how they may stand. The work of God will stand even in young people, so that the point is to see that it is the work of God. It will be normal -- you do not expect grey-haired experience from a boy of twelve, or a girl of twelve; but if the work of God is there it will be true to itself. How exposed they are in the schools! And I believe they should be particularly remembered in that way in our prayers. The Lord is able to make them stand.

E.P. Is there any particular significance in the last verse of the preceding chapter, "And the people of the land made Josiah his son king in his stead"? I was thinking of the spiritual instincts of the saints coming forward in regard to these things. What do you think?

J.T. It would seem that the general thought of the people was right. The general consensus of opinion is not always right; it is sometimes very wrong, and hence the need of leaders to give a right lead in these acts. It would appear here that the people of the land were right; they had the mind of God. They did not say, Josiah is too young to be upon the throne; and God honoured their action.

S.P. "Amon was twenty-two years old when he began to reign", chapter 33: 21. They put him down.

J.T. He was not a good choice. He was much older than Josiah when he began to reign, and now the condition of the people of the land had changed. It shows that all these things have to be read in the scripture contextually. What is the context? The context of the scripture here would indicate that the people of the land were right in making this young boy king. There must have been something potential there that was indicated in subsequent history.

A.B. Would you say too that the work began in him when he was eight years old? "Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign".

J.T. There was something there undoubtedly and the Spirit of God gives scope in the young. We give him eight years to see what that will bring out, for time has its own results. There is no deterioration in him at all, but the contrary; he has the idea of purging the whole country, a big thought, going even beyond Judah and Jerusalem.

Ques. "He began to seek after the God of David his father"; that is a good trait, is it not?

J.T. You are referring to verse 2: it says, "He did what was right in the sight of Jehovah, and walked in the ways of David his father, and turned not aside to the right hand nor to the left. And in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father; and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the Asherahs, and the graven images, and the molten images". I think the Spirit of God is calling attention to the sections or periods of his life; so that the young may come in at the age of eight, nine, ten, eleven or twelve, be subject to the truth and to their parents, come to the meetings and enjoy them; and then it is for the brethren to watch and see whether time has a deteriorating influence or the contrary. If it is steady improvement, well that is the work of God.

J.B. Proverbs 8:17 says, "I love those that love me; and they that seek me early shall find me". Would this be in keeping with chapter 34: 3?

J.T. "They that seek me early", that is what you mean.

S.P. Does the spiritual movement of Josiah connect up with 2 Timothy? The apostle speaks of Timothy's grandmother -- first of himself, then of

his grandmother and then of his mother. Would that agree with this?

J.T. It is Timothy that the apostle enjoins, "Let no one despise thy youth" (1 Timothy 4:12), as much as to say, This is a youth worth caring for. "Give heed to thyself", he says, and "youthful lusts flee, and pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace", 2 Timothy 2:22. It is a responsibility put on the young to see to themselves, because their youth will be despised unless they show that the work of God is paramount in them.

J.W.D. What would you look for in a young person seeking his place at the Lord's supper? You know there is considerable difficulty about this question.

J.T. In a general way it is a question of instinct that I should look for, whether the instincts there are the mark of the work of God. You get with Jacob, for instance, as unborn, that he is a supplanter. He had no intelligence from education at all, but the instinct was there that he supplanted somebody else, the man after the flesh. That is one thing that may appear in the very earliest stage of life. We get with John the baptist, the babe as yet unborn, that he rejoiced as the voice of the Lord's mother fell upon the ears of his mother, one of the most striking things. All that is to bring out the instincts of the work of God in the very earliest stages of human life. Then when children are being trained at their father's table and in his house, and come to the meetings, it is for parents to watch for these instincts; and the Scriptures enjoin that the truth is to be kept before them in a whole or full way, as illustrated in the idea of the omer of manna. The child is sitting down at his father's breakfast table and it is a large family, perhaps one may be fifteen years of age and others right down to three. The child of three has the same

amount of manna as the father and mother have and the other children. If he is an inquiring child he would say, 'Why do I get as much as you?' 'My child, that is God's thought for you. You are going to be a man like me. God has no other thought for you at all'. The idea in humanity is not minors or young children but men; hence the first mention of a babe is that he is a man. Eve says, "I have acquired a man with Jehovah", Genesis 4:1. So the Lord says, "A man has been born into the world", John 16:21. God has no other thought than to make men, not make children but make men. I think if we follow its instincts we shall see developed how God is working in the child.

J.B. Hannah's great exercise in connection with Samuel was seen in the instincts that came out in him later. Her desire was for a man child, and bringing a coat every year would suggest there was development on these lines.

J.T. She had no other thought than that he should be a man and take up things for God. I think the periods or stages here in Josiah's life are very instructive and ought to appeal to every young child in this room. He is in fellowship, you might say, at eight years of age; he is on the throne. At the age of sixteen we are told, "In the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father; and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem"; and in verse 8, "And in the eighteenth year of his reign, when he purged the land and the house, he sent Shaphan the son of Azaliah, and Maaseiah the governor of the city, and Joah the son of Joahaz the chronicler, to repair the house of Jehovah his God". What a man he was to send these men! What moral power he had to do this, to repair the house of Jehovah his God; not the doors only but the whole house!

E.P. Do you think in seeking after the God of David his father, he had taken on what had preceded? It was "David his father".

J.T. I think so. David, as we had yesterday, is the standard for all the following kings; and this young king, while he was yet young, "began to seek after the God of David his father".

Ques. Would the twelfth year of his reign refer to the reaching of the military age, twenty years old? It would be in keeping with the book of Numbers.

J.T. It is the military age, but he really attained the military age before in the manly qualities that marked him.

C.H.H. Would the evidence of the work of God in a young person be demonstrated by progress instinctively, in that Josiah did not follow in the steps of his own natural father or grandfather? He passes them over and goes back to David.

J.T. I think that is good. These stages in his life are a guide to us to watch our children. A year ago perhaps my child professed to love the Lord and may have wished to break bread with us. What is he now? Has he made any progress in the time? Because time has its own effect.

E.G.McA. Would you say that in the eighth year of his reign, when "he began to seek after the God of David his father", the light of his position had come home to him? And then we get what follows from there so that in the eighteenth year of his reign he breaks loose from everything that would contradict that position, because these things he breaks down have a religious aspect, have they not?

J.T. Quite so. You are struck with his courage and the wide sphere of operations he takes on, not only in Jerusalem and Judah, but in the other tribes' territories.

G.A.T. The secret of all his progress was in the second verse: "He did what was right in the sight

of Jehovah, and walked in the ways of David his father, and turned not aside to the right hand nor to the left". Would that be the line of walking in the Spirit?

J.T. Quite so; verse 2 is the whole life of the man. It is a sort of introductory word: This is the man we are going to speak of. His whole life is marked in this way; I would like to get the stages of it. Verse 3 begins the stages. We note the effect of time in a brother's life, whether a year makes any difference in him. If it does not there is not much to look for in him.

J.B. "The earth bears fruit of itself, first the blade, then an ear, then full corn in the ear", Mark 4:28.

J.T. It is the question of seed-time and harvest; the year is divided in that way. It is to bring out what time can do. You must put the seed into the ground, and it must be nurtured; there must be proper attention paid to it.

Ques. I baptise my children, but what have I got in view?

J.T. Quite so. You have the mind of God in view for them.

Ques. Should I not be looking for them to come into fellowship, and the earlier the better?

J.W.D. What are you going to do if the brethren are not happy? They say, Well, in bygone ministry certain prominent brethren decried the idea of young children coming into fellowship.

J.T. One is struck in these great revivals by the great stress laid on the Levites. They refer to brothers of vigour, they are not to serve after they are fifty. They begin at thirty, they are mature; it is twenty with David, but primarily from thirty to fifty years. I believe it is in the ministry that these unhappy brothers should be met. You say they are

not happy; well, sometimes we do not need to be happy to assert what is right. I think the way the Levites are stressed in these revivals is to call attention to the ministry amongst us, that we are to be in vigour in intelligence, indeed, but in vigour in dealing with all these irregularities. We have carried down considerable tradition and that tradition has to be hewed to pieces if it is not right, not according to God. I believe the prophetic ministry is to meet all that. These meetings for ministry bring in the mind of God, bring it in in power; there it is, that is the truth of this matter or that. Here it is in regard of young people.

J.W.D. You mean in this scripture?

J.T. In this very scripture.

W.L. In regard of young people coming in, where would the responsibility lie? In the persons themselves?

J.T. I think so. There ought to be individual responsibility; every young person is responsible.

W.L. There has been a good deal said in regard to the responsibility of the parents. I was wondering about 1 Corinthians 11:29 in regard of responsibility, as to the discernment of the body of Christ.

J.T. There ought to be a sense of responsibility in the persons themselves. The parents do not bring them into fellowship; they cease as to any authority with a child as to his place in fellowship. He puts in his claim to the assembly, and it is a matter for the brethren then; they look for a sense of responsibility in the young person and we ought to look for it, because he should stand on his own feet if he is in fellowship; he is a board of the tabernacle, potentially at least; that is, he stands with other boards on the ground of redemption. The parents are responsible to God as to what they have in mind for him. In the Jewish economy the Jewish child had the same

amount of manna as the father. We have to determine what that means. I say to my child, You are in the mind of God the same as I am; you are intended by God to be in the tabernacle as I am.

S.P. Moses was nourished in the house of his father three months. That nourishment carried him right through the forty years.

J.T. That is a good illustration, for that nourishment carried him right through for the first forty years. We must bear in mind in speaking of Moses the kind of parents he had, they were both of the house of Levi, Levites. So he would be like Timothy; he was nourished in the house of his father.

A.H.P. In speaking of the instinctive evidences of the work of God, it is not merely the age by itself, but some feature of the work of God, however small, in the person which is the thing to go by.

J.T. Quite so.

C.H.H. The man in John 9 was forced to stand on his feet by his parents.

J.T. They did not help him; "He is of age", that would apply when a young person is seeking fellowship. It is a question of his individuality. He has to reach the thought of "I myself with the mind serve God's law" (Romans 7:25); that really is the beginning of things.

Rem. You would say it is the positive side of what you have been saying in regard to the young, as Paul speaking about Timothy to the Philippians, "For I have no one like-minded who will care with genuine feeling how ye get on" (chapter 2: 20). "But ye know the proof of him, that, as a child a father, he has served with me in the work of the glad tidings" (verse 22). There is the positive side of what we see in the young.

J.T. Serving with Paul has that feature, quite so. That is one point in our subject this afternoon.

Then the next thing is the authority of Scripture, how that came in in this particular revival and how it discloses that whilst we may have revival as in Josiah's time, yet it may not go on to the end. That is another very solemn consideration. The introduction of the prophetic word to him from Huldah is, "Thus saith Jehovah the God of Israel: Tell the man that sent you to me, Thus saith Jehovah, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, all the curses that are written in the book which they have read before the king of Judah. Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my fury shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched. But to the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of Jehovah, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith Jehovah the God of Israel touching the words which thou hast heard: Because thy heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest his words against this place and against the inhabitants thereof, and humbledst thyself before me, and didst rend thy garments and weep before me, I also have heard thee, saith Jehovah. Behold, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered to thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil that I will bring upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof. And they brought the king word again". Now one calls attention to this as a prophetic word because peculiar stress is being laid on the thought of prophecy just now. It reminds the king that although he is leading in this great revival it may not go on to the end. That is one of the solemn things; whilst we may be enjoying good times we have to inquire -- How long is this going to last? And am I depending on someone else for it or am I going to make it last? That is the effect of a word like this.

S.McC. Jeremiah's ministry would show while they turned outwardly, many of them, in heart were not really in it.

J.T. That would show the rapidity that marked the departure after Josiah's death. It is very solemn, showing that one man may be used of God to influence the revival of the truth in this way and yet it may not last. That is one of the most solemn things we can think of. The question is, Am I going to make it last or am I depending upon someone else?

C.H.H. How would you apply that in the present day? Do you think we should not look for it lasting?

J.T. I am only saying the prophetic word should be attended to whatever it says. The revival that had come in, that was current, was not going to last, and surely that was a word for everybody. If I had been there with the light I have now, I would say, That is a serious matter, we must turn to God about it; because we know that He changed His mind about Nineveh, and the Spirit of God teaches us that He is ready to change His mind if we are willing to repent.

E.G.McA. The word of God may come to me as I read the Scriptures, but going to the prophetess Huldah indicates that I cannot read the Scriptures independently of ministry as it comes out through the Levites.

J.T. Quite so; that is what gift is for. "Having ascended up on high, he has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men", Ephesians 4:8. "And he has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to the work of the ministry" (verses 11, 12). Hence we find in Ezra and Nehemiah that the Levites give the sense of the Scriptures; that is what meetings of this kind and our weekly readings are for, that the Scriptures might be opened up to us.

C.H.H. What is the moral bearing of the keeping of the wardrobe and the second quarter of the town? Would that suggest the moral features of a prophet?

J.T. The idea of the wardrobe (whether it was she who kept it or her husband, she is connected with it) is quite extensive in Scripture. We know there are different robes, and the one who keeps it would know what the different robes are. She could tell you what the best one was like: "Bring forth the best robe", the father said that to his bondmen. They are supposed to know the best robe, the one to bring for this particular occasion. There are other robes in the wardrobe. It is very significant that it comes in here. And she lived in the second quarter of the city; that would mean she was not an aristocrat; she was an ordinary person. She did not live on Fifth Avenue or in the West End.

E.G.McA. Would having to do with the wardrobe indicate that I am clothed now according to the prophetic word?

J.T. That is the thought. The prophet, or here it is the prophetess, would indicate the kind of robe to be worn. Josiah rent his garments you see; that would mean that what he had was not suitable.

C.H.H. Was not Paul able to clothe the Corinthian saints in the very best robe? In spite of their state he clothed them with the thoughts of God, he maintained their dignity.

J.T. That is very good. The first eight verses of the epistle is clothing them with the very best; that is, it helps to remind the saints of what they are in the mind of God. What a garment belongs to them! The ones we have on are not suitable; that is the idea of rending the garments. So Elisha parted his garments in two and took up the mantle of Elijah.

T.U. Why is it a woman who prophesied? What is the bearing of it in connection with the thought that is before us?

J.T. The bearing is that the sisters here should take it to heart. Have they ever spoken a prophetic word to the brethren? Why should a sister not speak a prophetic word if she is with God? There are other things that would keep her from giving an address, but Philip had four daughters who prophesied. They did the work.

E.G.McA. Do you think by Josiah rending his garments that he was ready for the prophetic word of the moment from Huldah?

J.T. I think so. He was ready to listen to the prophetic word, "And the king sent and gathered all the elders of Judah and of Jerusalem. And the king went up into the house of Jehovah, and all the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the priests and the Levites, and all the people, great and small; and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant which had been found in the house of Jehovah". He wanted everybody to hear what he had heard. He is not afraid of reading the book of the law, the prophetic message does not deter him from having it read. That is what I think is very fine, he is ready for the full force of the Scriptures.

E.G.McA. The sword of the Spirit.

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. These men went to her (verse 22). That is an important feature, the brothers do not ignore the sisters.

J.T. The king told them to go to her, "And it came to pass when the king heard the words of the law, that he rent his garments. And the king commanded Hilkijah, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Abdon the son of Micah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asaiah a servant of the king, saying, Go inquire of Jehovah for me, and for them that are left in Israel and in Judah, concerning the words of the book which is found: for great is the wrath of

Jehovah that is poured out upon us, because our fathers have not kept the word of Jehovah, to do according to all that is written in this book. And Hilkijah and they that the king had appointed went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tokehath, son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe; now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the second quarter of the town; and they spoke with her to that effect".

S.McC. Is it not all the more remarkable when we think that Jeremiah was present at the time and his ministry going out, but yet they go to Huldah? Perhaps there is a tendency with us to despise the more obscure side of the prophetic element amongst us.

J.T. She is linked up with the wardrobe and she dwells in the second part of the city. She is not a person that is of national repute. But these men knew where to go to get the word of God, they knew who to inquire of.

E.G.McA. The Scripture says, "The priest's lips should keep knowledge". Why would he go to Huldah? What is the significance of that?

J.T. She is called a prophetess. The king knows her apparently. Do you not think we ought to know the persons who are likely to have the mind of God?

E.G.McA. Would it be the exercise of priestly instinct?

J.T. Exactly. Priesthood is one thing; prophecy is another.

C.H.H. Would Sarah's word be prophetic? The Lord tells Abraham to listen to Sarah.

J.T. Just so. Why should not the sisters be able to help as to the mind of God? We have abundant evidence that the Lord uses them, as in this instance. Why not now? I know of nothing to be coveted by any one of us more than to be able to convey the mind of God to the brethren in a crisis.

C.H.H. Deborah was greatly used in a crisis.

Rem. Deborah dwelt under her own palm tree, and all Israel came to her. She had her own judgment about matters.

J.T. I would say she was victorious over herself. The palm means victory over herself. Now the effect of the prophetic word is, "And the king sent and gathered all the elders of Judah and of Jerusalem". It is the king who is doing it. "And the king went up into the house of Jehovah, and all the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the priests and the Levites, and all the people, great and small; and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant which had been found in the house of Jehovah". The next thing is that he got all the people there. The king is in his place, and the prophet. If we are to act according to the mind of God each one is to be in his place, whatever place God has assigned to him in the testimony. Let me be there, let me be where I should be. The king was in his place here and so we have great results, "And the king stood in his place, and made a covenant before Jehovah, to walk after Jehovah, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all his heart and with all his soul, to perform the words of the covenant that are written in this book. And he caused all that were present in Jerusalem and Benjamin to stand to it. And the inhabitants of Jerusalem did according to the covenant of God, the God of their fathers. And Josiah removed all the abominations out of all the countries that belonged to the children of Israel, and made to serve all that were found in Israel -- to serve Jehovah their God, all his days they did not depart from following Jehovah, the God of their fathers". I think that is a remarkable tribute to a man who is true. He had gone on all these years and now he is in his place and we see the moral power he has got with

the whole community. All the days of his life they served Jehovah. It is a question of what moral power I have got in serving the Lord amongst His people.

S.McC. Is not verse 32 important? We might say, Well, I am sure that is right, and perhaps not do it; but it says here, "He caused all that were present ... to stand to it".

J.T. That would show what kingly power is. All power, of course, is in the hand of Christ in heaven and on earth, but He uses a man here. It is Christ's power, it is royal power, but it is exercised in certain ones. It is a question of what each one is, standing in his own place and serving faithfully.

T.U. Is the thought that if one is to be a man of weight he must answer to the prophetic word?

J.T. That is the thing if we have a prophetic meeting, to listen for the mind of God coming to us. The next thing is that there is something for me: I say, I got a word there tonight. It is those who hear the word of God and do it, those are the brethren.

S.P. To go back to what is effected in Josiah, the place he gave the sin-offering in verse 21: "For great is the wrath of Jehovah that is poured out upon us, because our fathers have not kept the word of Jehovah". Do you think in any way there is a lack amongst us on this line? He did not detach himself from the "us"; he included himself in it. It led to his power.

J.T. Quite so, the prophetic word takes account of that. You notice the first message of the prophetess is to the man that sent them; Josiah is addressed as a man. He, as a man, is linked up with all men, they are going to suffer. But there is a second message, in verse 26: "But to the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of Jehovah, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith Jehovah the God of Israel touching the words which thou hast heard". This is another idea,

he is now respected as the king of Judah. "Because thy heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest his words against this place and against the inhabitants thereof, and humbledst thyself before me, ... I also have heard thee, saith Jehovah. Behold, I will gather thee unto thy fathers ...". I think we ought to notice that, the difference between the two parts of the prophetic message. The first is a great general thought, that Josiah is just a man; in the second part he is king of Judah; his own personal qualities are touched upon. God differentiates between the man and the king because as king he stands in relation to the whole position.

S.P. Would that help us in our local administrations? Sometimes we detach ourselves in a matter of discipline and we lose the value of it and lose power in a matter of administration.

J.T. The man that accepts responsibility accepts the responsibility for the whole position. That is a good point.

E.P. Would the Lord's special words to the overcomer fit in with this word to the king of Judah? There is the more general message to the assembly and then there is the word to the overcomer.

J.T. Exactly. There is a difference between the angel and the overcomer; the angel represents all.

J.R.H. This word of the prophetess Huldah was spoken to five men appointed by the king. Is it in order for a sister to speak to a few brothers what she believes to be the mind of God?

J.T. By all means; I have experienced that on more than one occasion, a sister conveying the mind of God. The Lord will give His mind to sisters if they ask for it. If sisters accept the general responsibility of the position and are before God about it they will get His mind. Why not? He will honour sisters as well as brothers. There are other principles

that keep them from public speaking; nevertheless God uses sisters who cover their heads and recognise the authority above them. It is in subjection that they are used.

A.B. I was thinking that the Lord sent the woman in John 20 to the brethren.

J.T. She went and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord and that He had said these things to her. She does not teach them; she conveys the word.

Ques. It is quite helpful in administrative matters to identify ourselves with the brethren by the word 'we' instead of saying 'they', I notice in difficulties we are prone to say, They did this and they did that. Do you think it would be more helpful to identify ourselves with the matter even if it is wrong?

J.T. It is our matter. Every sister should look at it in that light, and brothers too.

G.A.T. Daniel said, "We have sinned", Daniel 9:5.

J.T. Quite so.

J.V. Would you say a word in regard to the book of the covenant? Evidently it had a great effect upon them.

J.T. It is general, of course; it was the book of the law and the book of the covenant. Hilkijah says, "I have found the book of the law" (verse 15). That is one title of it, it is a question of the will of God, the assertion of His will. The book of the covenant is an expression of what He is to us in His love; it is well worth thinking of, and looking at it from that point of view. The covenant is God entering into an engagement, and that engagement is the outcome of what He is in Himself.

J.R.H. The book of the covenant was made in the land of Moab and was put inside the ark. I thought that the reading of this book in the ears of the people, both great and small, was the fulfilling of the injunction at the end of Deuteronomy, when all the people were to be gathered together, men,

women and children, that even the children who did not know Jehovah might learn and fear.

J.T. I am thankful for what you said about Deuteronomy. There was an additional book given, an additional covenant, but the book of the law is the primary book of God, asserting His rights as at Sinai. And the book of the covenant is what He is, not only His will but His affections towards us, a very touching thing. Chapter 35 begins, "And Josiah held a passover to Jehovah in Jerusalem", a fine pronouncement about this king in verse 1. This word 'and' is additional; it links on with chapter 34. We are notified here that it is a superior passover to Hezekiah's because the additional month of grace which was allowed in the book of Numbers is not sought here; it is not needed. Hezekiah's passover was in the second month but Josiah's was in the first month, the primary thought of God, showing that there was a condition here to be noted. So that we are told in the last verse we read, "And there was no passover like to that holden in Israel from the days of Samuel the prophet; neither did all the kings of Israel hold such a passover as Josiah held, and the priests, and the Levites, and all Judah and Israel that were present, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. In the eighteenth year of the reign of Josiah was this passover holden". That is when he was twenty-six years of age. I think that is a very fine tribute. Then in connection with the passover, the ordering and authority of the king were used to establish headship and the working of love in the courses. It says in verses 2 and 3, "And he set the priests in their charges, and encouraged them to the service of the house of Jehovah. And he said to the Levites, that taught all Israel, and who were holy to Jehovah, Put the holy ark in the house that Solomon the son of David, king of Israel, built; ye have not to carry it upon your shoulders". We do well to take notice of

these facts because here Josiah is at his best spiritually; he is ordering the priests to be in their courses and he is honouring the Levites, telling them that they are holy and that they taught all Israel, that they are to put the holy ark where it should be. In the whole chapter as we shall see, everything is where it should be, and every person. It would give the best results for each person and thing to be where it should be according to divine prescription. So we have the priests in their courses and then we have the Levites looking after the ark, putting it where it should be. Then we have in verse 10, "And the service was prepared, and the priests stood in their place, and the Levites in their divisions, according to the king's commandment". Then we are told in verse 15, "And the singers, the sons of Asaph, were in their place". This is very remarkable instruction as to revival, it is calling upon every brother, sister and child to be in his place. God has an assigned place for each of us, and we are to be there. You are on call.

C.H.H. Would the fact that it was the eighteenth year of his reign, corresponding to the same year that he sought word from the prophetess, prove that the prophetic word was used to put everybody in his place?

J.T. I think that helps. God is constantly calling attention to the value of the prophetic word. What results it obtains amongst us! It is within the range of every one of us, both brothers and sisters, to get a word from God. How it is said is another matter, but it is possible to get a word from God.

S.McC. Would the suggestion of the "holy ark" link with the presentation of Christ to Philadelphia, "the holy, the true"?

J.T. I think that is good; so that it is a question of the Levites, "Ye have not to carry it upon your shoulders", as Josiah said. David had said it before;

it is not an onerous service. Put it where it should be, and that is the place that Solomon built for it. There is no doubt about the place; it is the house built by the son, and that is where it belongs. The point is that Christ has His proper place, where He should be.

J.B. What is suggested in verse 4, "According to the writing of David king of Israel, and according to the writing of Solomon his son"?

J.T. That has to be linked up with what we had yesterday, the instruments of David and the words of David. Now we have the writing of David and the writing of Solomon. The writing is something put on record, it is there for everybody to read. It is not simply the commandment of Jehovah but the writing of these men; it is a question of exalted spiritual instruction left on record.

E.G.McA. How does the last part of verse 15 work in now. "They had not to depart from their service, for their brethren the Levites prepared for them"?

J.T. Right down to the doorkeepers you mean?

E.G.McA. The Levites saw to it that they did not have to leave their place. How does that levitical service work now?

J.T. The thing is to see that you do not let a person into fellowship who is not suitable. It is so ordained that the Levites look after the doorkeepers, that we should not let any extraneous matter in that should not be in, or let any out that might be in. The idea of doorkeeping here is very striking; it says the singers were in their place and the doorkeepers at every gate and "they had not to depart from their service, for their brethren the Levites prepared for them". I suppose it would be that the ministry helps. Your business is to look after the doors, do not let anyone in who should not be in. What do you think of that yourself?

E.G.McA. I think that is very fine.

J.B. Would the singers and the doorkeepers suggest that what is inside and what is outside is in keeping and in order?

J.T. I think that is good. If you look at chapter 23 of the first book there is some word about that. "And four thousand were doorkeepers; and four thousand praised Jehovah with the instruments which I made, said David, to praise therewith", meaning that the doorkeepers and the singers were the same in number; in other words it would be the same persons, because if you have not good doorkeepers you will not have good singing or worship to God.

Ques. Would chapter 8 of the Acts indicate the proper order in connection with letting anyone into fellowship? Does that give us guidance as to who should take their place amongst us? I refer to Peter and John and Simon Magus, in that setting the doorkeepers are men with spiritual discernment.

J.T. Peter and John were sent down by the other apostles; it was an apostolic matter. Philip was an evangelist, it says; it shows the correlation between the different services. "some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists"; it is the relation between the evangelists and the apostles in Acts 8. The evangelist's work is carried on; Philip was very successful, but he allowed Simon Magus into fellowship. Peter discerned that, showing that the different services must work in with one another.

J.W.D. Do you not think the conditions of doorkeeping would be much more stringent in Josiah's time than in Hezekiah's?

J.T. I think so. Josiah's passover is outstanding. What is stressed in Hezekiah's time is not the passover -- the comparison is not with the passover in Solomon's time -- but with the fourteen days of joyous service, fourteen days of feast. It is a double feast, that is what is outstanding there. In Hezekiah's

day there had been nothing like that since Solomon's time. But what is stressed here is the passover: there was no passover like this since Samuel, it was like an Exodus passover.

S.McC. In going back it alludes to Samuel the prophet. Why that?

J.T. Well, I suppose there might have been one in his time like it, though we are not told there was. The comparison here goes further back, it covers more ground than Hezekiah's; but it is a question here of the passover, whereas in Hezekiah's time it is a question of the duration of the feast fourteen days. That is exactly what Solomon had, fourteen days; there was not anything like it again until Hezekiah; but it would appear that Solomon did not have a passover like Josiah, nor did David have a passover like Josiah, a very striking thing. There was not one like it since Samuel's time.

Ques. Is it getting down to first principles, or getting back to the roots of the matter?

J.T. I should think he went back to Exodus. The book was there in his hand, he would refer to it and look over it.

C.H.H. Would the fact that the doorkeepers are insisted upon here be because according to chapter 34 evil abounded without measure; man multiplied evil before the Lord? Evil had got in to such an extent that there was great necessity for doorkeepers.

J.T. It is strikingly so today; evil is all around in such an insidious way, coming in through the schools: our little ones are where the worst kind of evil is. Evil is most insidious at the present time, so that the doorkeeping is very important and correlated with the singing. If the doorkeeping is not good neither is the singing.

T.U. Is there the blending of the book of Moses with the words of David in relation to the detail of the passover?

J.T. You must go to Moses for the passover, but there is more attaching to this service; there are other sacrifices as well. They did not have the ark in Exodus when they celebrated the passover. It is a richer state of things in that there has been great addition; that is another thing we should observe, that David said to Solomon, "Thou shalt add to it". I believe that extended back to the passover in Egypt; there was to be continual addition in a spiritual way.

E.G.McA. We have referred to the great evil in the days of Amon, Josiah's father. Is it true that in the passover the prophetic word has more weight than it had in the revival in Hezekiah's day, that the prophetic word has more weight and place as the evil abounds?

J.T. It would seem so. There is no discrepancy here but Hezekiah has to ask the Lord to pardon because things are not in order.

A.B. Would that be seen in that it is the idea of cleansing with Hezekiah; but the thought with Josiah is purging, a more stringent idea, and perhaps connected with the thought of the passover?

J.T. Yes, and more extensive too, because all the territory of Judah and Israel was affected by the purging. Josiah went out among all the brethren, as it were.

Ques. Do you connect the word 'doorkeeping' with a letter of commendation? That is, doorkeepers should convey the right information in a letter of commendation.

J.T. Yes; that is so.

C.Y. The doorkeepers were at every gate, including each local assembly.

J.T. That is the idea, doorkeepers in every gate.

C.H.H. Would there be any connection with the angels at the gates of the heavenly city?

J.T. That brings it in. These are the terms laid down in the last chapter of the Bible, that if one washes his robes he may enter: "Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city". No doorkeeper will challenge you if you wash your robes; you have a right to enter in at the gates. He is glad to see you and passes you through.

REVIVAL (4)

Nehemiah 12:27 - 43; Ezra 6:16 - 22

J.T. It will be obvious to all that these scriptures are closely allied. It is a question whether we should begin with the house or the wall. It occurs to me we should begin with the dedication of the wall of the city as signifying typically fellowship, coming down to the level of all of us. It is a subject that has a great place with us, profitably. The house is, of course, a more spiritual thought, more inward, which I think we ought to look at secondly. But Nehemiah gives great prominence to the wall, first the building of it which would mean the recovery in our times, the recognition of fellowship. Fellowship is treated of in the two letters to Corinth: the fellowship of God's Son in chapter 1, the fellowship of Christ's death in chapter 10, and the fellowship of the Spirit in the end of the second epistle -- of God's Son, of His death and of His Spirit, in the epistles to the Corinthians. John however in his two epistles treats of fellowship with one another, "with the Father" and "with his Son". If we are helped to go over the ground a little, oft traversed indeed profitably, then we may see the force of the dedication of the wall with these processions and the two choirs of singers, one moving in one direction and the other in another so that they meet. When we come to the house of God, both choirs stood in the house of God (verse 40). It would give us an inlet to the house in Ezra.

Ques. Would there be any connection between what you are saying and the fact that Nehemiah is governor, representing the authoritative side in connection with the wall, and Ezra representing the priestly side in connection with the house?

J.T. That is good, indicating the distinction to be kept in mind in our inquiry, that whilst he is acting

under a gentile monarch, he is still acting under divine government. And the fellowship still stands in connection with the authority of Christ, so that it says in 1 Corinthians 10, "Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?". That stands in relation to the truth of the fellowship.

S.McC. What do these choirs suggest to you?

J.T. A jubilant spirit amongst the brethren -- that we are in the fellowship, not in a somewhat disconsolate way, but happily and freely following it and commending it to others, I think that is the idea.

E.P. Would it be right to say Ezra deals more with their position and Nehemiah with their state?

J.T. Perhaps you would enlarge on that.

E.P. I was thinking of the great movement up from Babylon under Ezra; they are moved up from Babylon to the true position, whereas Nehemiah deals more with their condition as in that position.

J.T. I think that is instructive because Ezra's movement is linked with the movements under Zerubbabel and Jeshua, though Ezra came in much later, contemporary with Nehemiah. The movement under Zerubbabel and Jeshua is a movement under the direct government of God; the proclamation was by Cyrus according to Ezra that they should return and build. Cyrus is a prophetic monarch: he had been spoken of in Isaiah before he was born, showing that God had had this matter that is indicated in Ezra long in mind, and the movement corresponded with his pre-revealed thoughts. Ezra is positional. The proclamation runs in Ezra 1:1 - 4, "And in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, and he made a proclamation throughout his kingdom, and also in writing, saying, Thus says Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth

has Jehovah the God of the heavens given to me, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whosoever there is among you of all his people, his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of Jehovah the God of Israel -- he is God -- which is at Jerusalem. And whosoever remains in any place where he sojourns, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, besides the voluntary offering for the house of God which is at Jerusalem". That is a remarkable proclamation and carries direct divine authority, for Cyrus recognises that God had given him the nations. And now he is very precise as to what the position is -- it is at Jerusalem: "He has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem"; so that it carries with it, you might say, the authority that David and Solomon had in their building.

S.McC. Is it not significant in connection with that, that in Nehemiah 12 Ezra goes before them and Nehemiah after them?

J.T. I think that is orderly. Ezra would be the more spiritual. Nehemiah is the authoritative side, representative really of the gentile authority. Ezra had come up under gentile authority but he is recognised as a priest. In order to make clear the distinction between the two books, there is no proclamation in Nehemiah in the sense in which we have it in Ezra; Nehemiah is the outcome of one man being concerned about the people of God. It was God that was concerned about the building of the house and raised up Cyrus to do it, according to Ezra; but in Nehemiah it is the outcome of his own exercise. We are told that; the book opens with the words of Nehemiah, meaning that he is a man moved of himself. The meaning of his name, as given in the note, is 'Comfort of Jehovah' -- a word that should appeal to every brother and sister as to

whether one is a comfort to God and to the saints in his service. Then we are told that "Hanani, one of my brethren, came, he and certain men of Judah. And I asked them concerning the Jews that had escaped, who were left of the captivity, and concerning Jerusalem. And they said to me, Those who remain, that are left of the captivity there in the province, are in great affliction and reproach; and the wall of Jerusalem is in ruins, and its gates are burned with fire", Nehemiah 1:2, 3. These verses show that Nehemiah's building is the outcome of one man's exercise, but the present revival that God has graciously granted is of Himself, more in keeping with Ezra. God had raised up Cyrus of Himself, spoken of long before he was born, showing that it was a matter of God's mind, fixed on His calendar, that there should be a recovery of Israel after the captivity; a very foundational thought, for after all everything proceeds from God. But Nehemiah is the side of individual concern about these matters. As to ourselves, it is a question for each of us whether this revival is to continue, and whether we have right feelings about the weakness that exists at the present time -- some meetings dying out or discontinuing, others arising -- whether we have right feelings. So the two books put together in that way describe our position; God has wrought and He looks for individual concern about matters. Are they to be continued? Can I improve on present conditions? Can I make things better? That is Nehemiah.

E.P. Would it be right to say that this individual concern awakens mutual concern throughout the book?

J.T. I think that is the way the matter is. We have observed indeed in our readings since we have been here, that God works in relation to any right movement. One man moves with God and God works in relation to that man; I think there is

abundant evidence of that. God works with one man and others are affected to move with him. It is a question of leadership in Nehemiah, one man feeling things rightly, so that the book begins with his words.

G.H. Would Ezra be more John's side and Nehemiah more Paul's, the idea of authority?

J.T. John's gospel speaks of God, beginning with "the Word", everything emanates from that. What you say is right; Ezra presents God moving from the divine side. God moving in Cyrus, a gentile monarch, so that he might build the house of God at Jerusalem and for the release of God's people. It is all from the divine side; God had spoken about it before; He had spoken about it by both Isaiah and Jeremiah. Nehemiah represents to us what one man can do who feels things amongst the people of God and would have them bettered; Nehemiah represents that side. As such a man as that works, God moves with him and he acquires moral power among his brethren.

S.P. Would you say it is right for us to inquire as to the different localities, inquire feelingly, not with a sense of being curious but as carrying the interests of the assembly? Should we inquire how things are moving, how the brethren are getting on? It should encourage circulation amongst the brethren.

J.T. I am sure it would. Any information of common interest that a brother obtains he should pass on because it is of value, pass it on to the brethren in his locality at the beginning of the meeting for prayer so that the saints hear, "And the report concerning them reached the ears of the assembly which was in Jerusalem", Acts 11:22. Tidings came of the work of God far away, and the ears of the assembly heard. The ears of the assembly are characteristic and they hear what God is doing, as we were reminded the other evening, "Let us return now and visit the brethren ... and see how

they are getting on", Acts 15:36. Why should I not find out and make it known? Nehemiah made inquiry, "I asked them concerning the Jews that had escaped ...".

Rem. In connection with what you are saying, this word 'revive' is used by the enemy in this book, chapter 4: 2; it is used by the enemy to hinder the work of God. Our brother was saying the positive side should be circulated amongst us, but the enemy would seem to know what is going on and try to hinder it.

J.T. Yes, he has ears too, and would use them to hinder. He knows what God is doing; that is very striking.

G.A.T. If we have local exercises, troubles we call them, you would say it is fitting that we should let it be known so that we have the prayers of our brethren outside?

J.T. Even in regard to a meeting for care where there should be liberty for the circulation of all matters relative to the service of God; as it says in one of the hymns suitable for that meeting, 'Every interest precious to Thee finding in our hearts a place' (Hymn 305). These interests belong to God, and the needs of the testimony should be our concern. So in the meeting for care they come up and this information ought to be circulated. Sisters will do well to inquire; many of them do not. Their husbands will do well to tell their wives and families what they should know relative to these matters; they are common property. Everyone should know so that the prayers may continue.

S.McC. In some localities it has been implied that the brethren would be happier to consider the matter before them if visiting brothers were not present. Do you think that sentiment is right?

J.T. It is very wrong. It denies the general fellowship. Visiting brethren normally ought to be

a help. There is only one fellowship; exclusion of brethren in that way is merely natural sentiment.

S.McC. What would you do if you were in a meeting where the brothers said they were not free to go on with the matter until the visiting brother went out?

J.T. It is distressing. It shows how far natural sentiment enters into our affairs.

C.H.H. In this fellowship indicated in the wall and the choirs going round it, would all these different gates represent the different features of the fellowship which they had to take account of?

J.T. The points touched on have a spiritual significance; the different gates touched on, even the persons, all have significance. We might notice one or two of them in verse 36 of chapter 12. "And his brethren, Shemaiah, and Azareel ...". These names and the places mentioned by name carry spiritual suggestions that ought to be in our minds in relation to the fellowship. We shall perhaps speak a little later on that, but our present subject is the dedication of the wall. In verse 27, "And at the dedication of the wall of Jerusalem they sought the Levites out of all their places, to bring them to Jerusalem, to hold the dedication with gladness, both with thanksgivings, and with singing, with cymbals, lutes and harps". That is the great general thought. One has been impressed in these meetings with the great prominence in revivals given to priests and Levites. They represent the operative work of God, operative instrumentally; if God is to carry on His work He has got His own instruments. No one enters into a matter involving operation without suitable instruments, and these instruments are prepared beforehand; they must be. I think that is what enters into the stress laid on priests and Levites in all these revivals; without these instrumentalities the operation cannot proceed. This operation here is

a dedication, a peculiar service. It is an operation really but we must have a modus operandi, that is, a means whereby such an operation can go through. It is not for everybody to lead, it is for these persons mentioned by name here; but it says "they sought the Levites out of all their places", to get them into line, to get them into position. Each should be in position in this great matter.

E.G.McA. Would you say that is like the apostle bringing it to the attention of the Corinthians in the first chapter, that "God is faithful, by whom ye have been called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord" before he brings in the collective side of his teaching? It was in order that the priests and Levites might be stirred up to build the wall.

J.T. I think so; "so that ye come short in no gift, awaiting the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ" (verse 7). The allusion would be to what was there. You must have workmanship, not just anybody. Corinth must have proper workmanship, not just anybody. Corinth had skilled men, but not the right kind. Men are made skilful in the seminaries and the universities, but they are not the right kind; they do not come under the heading of priests and Levites. Here they are God's divinely skilled men and the thought is, Let each be in his place. A Levite ought to be at Jerusalem -- it says to bring them to Jerusalem; that is their place in relation to the work of God.

Ques. Do we get that thought with Barnabas? "And he went away to Tarsus to seek out Saul", Acts 11:25. We are not told that anyone asked him to do it, but he saw the necessity to seek out a man that would be ready to help the saints at Antioch.

J.T. He was the man for the moment, he was the man for the work; exactly. It is very striking in the Acts to note the allusions to levitical skill and instinct. I believe every brother and sister ought to

take it to heart. Am I available for this matter? Am I skilled? Because skill is required.

S.P. Why do things come upon us suddenly? It says in 2 Chronicles 29:36 that "God had prepared the people; for the thing was done suddenly". In our localities something might come suddenly. If we are not prepared we might get into difficulty.

J.T. Quite so; we may have to make special prayer about it as Hezekiah did. We are not to postpone the work if it is a movement of God. Things must be done.

J.W.D. Would you say a little more about bringing the Levites to Jerusalem? What had you in mind about Jerusalem?

J.T. It is a great position, the centre of everything in this matter, the centre of divine operations; so that the Levites were sought "out of all their places to bring them to Jerusalem". We were speaking yesterday about the Levites being in their places under Josiah; they were in their places officially. It seems that here they were in the places they had sought out for themselves in the country. There was hesitation to go to Jerusalem. It says in chapter 11, verses 1 and 2, "And the princes of the people dwelt in Jerusalem; and the rest of the people cast lots, to bring one of ten to dwell in Jerusalem, the holy city, and nine parts in the cities. And the people blessed all the men that willingly offered themselves to dwell in Jerusalem". It seems there was a hesitancy to dwell in Jerusalem; it requires spiritual instinct. And so it goes on to say in verses 3 and 4, "And these are the chiefs of the province that dwelt in Jerusalem; but in the cities of Judah dwelt every one in his possession in their cities. Israel, the priests, and the Levites, and the Nethinim, and the children of Solomon's servants. And in Jerusalem dwelt some of the children of Judah and of the children of Benjamin". It seems as if they were choosing their own

places. The priests and Levites belonged to Jerusalem properly, where the house of God was.

Ques. In seeking out the Levites, do you not think a locality ought to have in its mind that there are brethren in other places that can help them? That requires that they must support the Levites.

J.T. The Levites stand related to the tabernacle according to Numbers; they stand round the tabernacle under the supervision of the priests. So they have a universal bearing; they are universal in their service and ought to be availed of too.

Ques. Is it not instructive to see the movements of this great servant? He went out and surveyed the scene by night. He went through the valley-gate, "even toward the jackal-fountain, and to the dung-gate; and I viewed the walls of Jerusalem, which were in ruins, and its gates were consumed with fire. And I went on to the fountain-gate, and to the king's pool; ... and turned back, and entered by the valley-gate and returned", Nehemiah 2:13 - 15. Would that not suggest the attitude of mind that can be used for revival, a lowly spirit, and returning back in the same lowly spirit?

J.T. The valley-gate would allude to the death of Christ. Joshua lodged in the valley in taking Ai. Really the line is going down as Christ went down and Nehemiah came back to that point. You can see how the Spirit of God could use a man like that. A man like that acquires moral weight amongst us, and the Spirit of God will use him to assert authority amongst us.

E.P. So that the dedication of the wall would be the saints arriving at what he had arrived at before.

J.T. He had the thought of building the wall. And now it is built, so we are entitled to introduce all his exercises into this dedication service. How he rejoiced in the fact of its being finished! He tells us how long it took to build. The great thought of

fellowship is established. Now what do we think about it? Are we satisfied with it or are we complaining about the narrowness of it, complaining that the brethren do not want radios or smoking, practices that are defiling? If we are, we are not joining in this dedication; we have no part in these choirs; we shall be out of it. The thing is now settled and established and we are rejoicing in the fact. There is now some security in the fellowship.

E.G.McA. Speaking of that, is that why the movement of the first choir was toward the dung gate? Is it there that all these things go out?

J.T. You are referring to chapter 12: 31: "And I brought up the princes of Judah upon the wall and appointed two great choirs and processions, on the right hand upon the wall towards the dung-gate". Very good; that is where all these things belong, at the dung-gate. It applies to mixed marriages too; all over the world there are certain outstanding things that one could mention, such as radios, smoking and mixed marriages. It is a constant battle, all these things have to be cast into this place of filth. We have already had the brook Kidron, typical of the death of Christ; that is how they are set aside judicially. The Spirit of God requires that they should be set aside and the standard is the death of Christ.

Rem. In the next chapter conditions seem to come up again that would interfere with this joy. Nehemiah sees them bringing in things to sell on the sabbath, and he finds mixed marriages. He says "I protested". You know brethren do not like you to protest, but if we see things wrong we should speak to one another and say, I protest.

J.T. Very good. And now let us see the order of these choirs: "And I ... appointed two great choirs and processions, on the right hand upon the wall towards the dung-gate. And after them went

Hoshaiah, and half of the princes of Judah ...", (verses 31, 32). Now I think that the position ought to be clearly understood, that these choirs are not only choirs, but processions. We do not want to be out of these things; we want to be in them, having part in the choir and in the procession, meaning that I am witness of this thing. I might not be taking much active part but I am in the procession; I am thoroughly in this matter of fellowship and I am glad to be in it.

S.P. It is not optional.

J.T. Nehemiah is commanding it.

J.H-t. It is on the wall too, and over the gates, I was wondering if it would help us to see that the wall and the gates for the choirs and processions to move on must be established?

J.T. There is liberty of movement; it is a happy occasion. Everyone, even if he is not actively engaged in the choir, is in the procession. The choirs and the processions are distinct thoughts; we may not be all singing, but the idea of the procession is very interesting; I am in line with that.

S.McC. Is the choir the idea of giving a lead to the procession?

J.T. I think so. The song here is jubilance, you know, we are happy in the thing; a great time of joy.

E.G.McA. Would you say that in the procession there is also the thought of my public identification with this movement? I might be in my spirit in line with the thing, but am I ready to take my place in the procession, which would bring in reproach in connection with this matter?

J.T. You can understand there would be reproach. These enemies that are spoken of earlier in the book said, "If a fox went up, it would break down their stone wall" (chapter 4: 3). That was when they were building. They would jeer at them in this procession, but there is moral power in it, I think the Lord

would speak to us as to whether we are all satisfied about this matter of fellowship or whether we want the walls lowered and broken through.

C.H.H. Would you say that in coming to the dung-gate singing, we should be happy that all these things should be put out? We have authority established to do away with these things, such as smoking, radios and all that kind of thing. If people persist in them we are not obliged to go on with them.

J.T. That is evil and we are not obliged to go on with evil. God is with us in refusing it. We may be weak but surely He will triumph over these enemies. This compromising is so dangerous! Some say, Let it go; and there it is! The enemy is undisturbed in what he is doing.

Rem. The priests and the Levites purified themselves; that is, we cannot take things up with others until we have first cleared our own houses. If brothers who have to take up these matters are not clear themselves, they are not able to do anything for others.

J.W. Would "Sanballat, and Tobijah, and Geshem the Arabian" be elements that would hold us in compromise? They say, "Come, let us meet together in the villages in the plain of Ono". But Nehemiah says, "I am doing a great work, and I cannot come down" (chapter 6: 1 - 3).

J.T. Very good. We have a sense of the greatness of the work, we know what enters into it. I think that is very fine, "I am doing a great work". Not simply that the work is great, but I am doing it, I am working at it. Now we cannot take up in detail these names that are mentioned here after verse 31, but I think the Spirit of God loves to bring forward names of those who are in this procession, people who are outstanding as supporting this matter of fellowship. They are happily in it, they are joining in the choir and they are in the procession. And then

we find, as already remarked, that they had the musical instruments of David the man of God. It is a very remarkable thing that David is called a man of God in this connection, not in view of any great military operations, but in this connection of the musical instruments of David, the man of God. They have got these, so it is no mean choir.

J.R.H. In connection with these names verse 35 says, "Certain of the priests' sons". Why are they spoken of as priests' sons instead of priests?

J.T. I do not know, except to bring in the thought of sonship. Earlier we have the word 'children', that is in verse 28: "The children of the singers were assembled". Evidently two original words are used, one purely a family word, 'children'; the other, 'sons', distinguished members of the family alluding to priesthood. Aaron's sons is a thought that runs through Scripture; that is, we are related to Christ in sonship. Then we have Ezra brought into that section in verse 36 in connection with the instruments of David the man of God: "And Ezra the scribe before them".

Ques. In regard to the two companies, it would be necessary for the choir to have a leader, and the procession having joined in with the choir would follow together co-operatively. Would that not mean that I walk with my brethren and that we find that we have the same objective?

J.T. I think that is good. The choir is certainly one thought and the procession another, but they are beautifully linked together. There is, I think, orderliness in the singing; singing is the leading thought. There is orderliness too in the procession, we have part in it in an orderly way.

G.A.T. Would this have any connection with the children of Israel marching around Jericho? They did not sing there, but shouted.

J.T. There is a certain likeness, but there is more to it here. The procession around Jericho was very formal and very solemn; they were to be silent, not talkative. Talkativeness amongst us is harmful, "In the multitude of words there wanteth not transgression; but he that restraineth his lips doeth wisely", Proverbs 10:19. So that at Jericho Joshua enjoins silence in the movement, but the time will come to shout; we are to be ready for that. But here it is jubilance. The point here is that the saints are happy in the position into which they are brought, involving fellowship, involving the denial of things I like naturally. I am happy to sacrifice these things, I have better things in the fellowship of God's Son.

E.G.McA. In the choir there is the thought of training; and I was wondering if the singing of the choir would indicate that our minds are governed by the Scriptures, so that we move in line with the truth not only as it is in the Scriptures but as it is brought out by the Levites. Hence the procession follows and there is no question in the mind of the people as to what we stand for.

J.T. I think so. Anyone seeing these people, this remarkable performance in Jerusalem, would say, Whatever we may think about it, they are happy people. They are not disconsolate. At some of our meetings in England, these large meetings, the caterers expect that the brethren will buy their wares, cigarettes, drinks, newspapers and what not. And when the time comes between the meetings and the brethren move out, the people look at them and they are not buying those things at all. None of them are smoking; they remark on that. They do not buy newspapers; Cannot you read?, they say sarcastically. But then they have to admit that the brethren are not doleful looking, they are quite happy; that is the idea, we are contented in the things we have got. We have not what they rely upon for their joy,

and we do not use these things at all. We have our own joys.

S.McC. Would the fountain-gate suggest something of that inward resourcefulness connected with the Spirit?

J.T. I think so. There is the fountain, but the word 'gate' is also used, I suppose it would be the point where water is secured. The word 'gate' to us means what is administrative, that there are administrative occasions. If it is the dung-gate, it would mean that certain things are sent there as judged to be filth; it is the administrative pronouncement as to evil things. But the fountain-gate is another thought; there the brethren are happy and free -- we have ministry and things that help us and refresh us.

W.McK. Paul says, "I count also all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all, and count them to be filth, that I may gain Christ", Philippians 3:8.

J.T. We can see gain relative to the dung-gate, but here we have the fountain-gate after "David the man of God" is mentioned, so that we are now touching exalted spiritual things. "And at the fountain-gate, and over against them, they went up by the stairs of the city of David, at the ascent of the wall, above the house of David, even to the water-gate eastward" (verse 37). It is moral ascent after you touch the fountain-gate; we are going up now and it is the stairs of the city of David, an appointed method, the appointed way of going up. We are not climbing up, it is orderly elevation. And it is "at the ascent of the wall, above the house of David, even to the water-gate", even that length, the water-gate -- where water is administered.

C.H.H. Would that be seen in Psalm 87, "Jehovah loveth the gates of Zion" (verse 2)? Then "As well the

singers as the dancers shall say, All my springs are in thee" (verse 7).

J.T. Quite so, the singers and the dancers say that, "All my springs are in thee". That does not mean that my springs are in God, but my springs are in Zion; that is an ordered state of things that God has established. That is what is in mind here.

Ques. In one company Ezra leads and in the other company Nehemiah goes after, supporting them. Is there any thought in that?

J.T. That is the next thing to look at, verse 38: "And the second choir went in the opposite direction upon the wall, and I after them, and the half of the people, from beyond the tower of the furnaces even to the broad wall". We can all see the moral ascent reached in this first movement in relation to Ezra; it is to the water-gate even above the house of David. The second movement is in verse 38, the second choir went in the opposite direction "and I after them", Nehemiah says. It is a question of authority behind; it is there. The choir is moving of itself, "and the half of the people, from beyond the tower of the furnaces even to the broad wall; and from above the gate of Ephraim, and above the gate of the old wall, and above the fish-gate, and the tower of Hananeel, and the tower of Meah, even to the sheep-gate; and they stood still in the prison-gate". Now there is not time to go into all these gates or points but they are worth keeping in our minds. "And they stood still in the prison-gate", as much as to say, Do not forget that! But every gate here has a meaning, I believe. First of all, "from beyond the tower of the furnaces", which I think would allude to discipline and pressure, the severity of the fire we are put through to refine us; and then "to the broad wall". Persons thus refined have a good deal of latitude because we are brought to a broad place; we are not tied up under Jewish restrictions.

You can trust persons who have gone through the fire; that is the idea of the broad wall. There is latitude for us in what we are doing.

C.H.H. Would that indicate that you are enlarged under pressure?

J.T. Quite so, "In pressure thou hast enlarged me", Psalm 4:1. You have room and you could be trusted to use it. Some of us have to be watched, but there are others who can be trusted. And then, "from above the gate of Ephraim", which I suppose is the sort of gate which recognises leadership; Ephraim was the leading tribe at one time. Then, "above the gate of the old wall"; that is, we do not forget old principles or the old wall, what it was like or where the old gate was.

J.H. Do you get the idea of the choir standing still in the prison-gate in the second epistle to the Corinthians? "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassions, and God of all encouragement; who encourages us in all our tribulation".

J.T. Quite so. The prison-gate is to be noted -- stand still there. We are not of much account unless we are in prison. The Lord says, "I was in prison", Matthew 25:36. He is the Leader in everything. The saints are the people who know characteristically what imprisonment means.

C.H.H. The Lord can adjust us in prison.

J.T. He can use it because He knew what it meant. He used it on Simon. These gates should all be looked into. The tower of Hananeel has a peculiar meaning, a tower always denoting strength or distinction.

S.McC. If you just allude to them all -- what of the fish-gate?

J.T. We have got to the gate of Ephraim and then we come to the fish-gate; I suppose it would suggest something brought from a distance to Jerusalem.

But fish, I believe, typify among other things the sovereignty of God. He finds His people sovereignly as in the waters. You cannot find them, of course, though fish can be found. The general thought is that they are in an element that denotes the sovereignty of God. An immense place, the waters! God alone knows the depths of the waters. The Lord said to Simon, Cast in a hook and you will find one fish; it is a question of sovereignty. I suppose the fish-gate would allude to all that; also what marks fish characteristically is that they do not go with the current of things around.

S.McC. These gates are very interesting; this second movement is connected with a line of gates. That is not such an exalted level as the first movement.

J.T. They end on the same level, I think the high level is in verse 37, but this choir brings in other thoughts that are conducive to this high level. Do not let us forget them. We have two towers, "the tower of Hananeel and the tower of Meah, even to the sheep-gate", which we need not say much about; and then "they stood still in the prison-gate". And then "both choirs stood in the house of God", that is the point to reach here. The other ascent is more spiritual, "above the house of David, even to the water-gate eastward"; but "both choirs stood in the house of God, and I and the half of the rulers with me; and the priests, Eliakim, Maaseiah, Miniamin, Micaiah, Elioenai, Zechariah, Hananiah, with trumpets" (verse 41). And then we have the singers in verse 42 and their names given. "And the singers sang aloud; and Jizrahiah was their overseer". We now have an overseer in the singing in this choir, "And that day they offered great sacrifices, and rejoiced, for God had made them rejoice with great joy; and also the women and the children rejoiced. And the joy of Jerusalem was heard even afar off".

So that we can see the point in all this, the testimony of satisfaction amongst the brethren. We are satisfied with the position whatever others may think about it; brethren are satisfied with the position whatever reproach is attached to it. We find it is so at a time like this; we find real joy in looking into the things of God.

J.B. The queen of Sheba in 1 Kings referred to Solomon's men and servants: "Happy are thy men! happy are these thy servants, who stand continually before thee, who hear thy wisdom!". And then she goes on to bless Jehovah.

J.T. These are remnant times. It speaks of "the joy of Jerusalem". Jerusalem as a place is not a delightful place; after all people did not want to live there, they would rather live in the country. But now its joy is heard afar off, "the joy of Jerusalem".

J.W.D. I believe that God is making the joy of the saints a testimony. These people are happy in the position they are in.

E.L. In Lamentations 4:12 it says, "The kings of the earth, and all the inhabitants of the world, would not have believed that the adversary and the enemy should enter into the gates of Jerusalem", I wonder if we often under-estimate the power of the enemy in bringing in adverse things in relation to administration.

J.T. Do I understand that you are alluding to the gates?

E.L. You were suggesting that the gates allude to administration. I wondered if the enemy would attack administration in our localities.

J.T. The enemy would set aside the principle of administration, and hence spoil all this. These gates alluding to administration are to be much before us; the administrative side begins with individuals and works out through our care meetings to authoritative

assembly pronouncements. I believe that is how God is supporting us, so that the truth stands. What I think is particularly noticeable here is the joy of Jerusalem and it was heard afar off.

S.McC. "And also the women and the children rejoiced. And the joy of Jerusalem was heard even afar off". The women and children are brought into it. We might say there is not much for the children in the fellowship; we are negating certain things that would appeal to them. But they are in this matter.

J.T. Very good.

Ques. Would you say the position has to be arrived at? "How should we sing a song of Jehovah's upon a foreign soil?" Psalm 137:4. The enemy wanted them to sing but they could not do it.

J.T. They could not do it there, they could do it in Jerusalem.

C.H.H. In the end of the Songs of degrees they reached the house of God: "Bless Jehovah, all ye servants of Jehovah, who by night stand in the house of Jehovah. Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless Jehovah". Would that correspond to this place, to these different gates? The end that is reached is the house of God.

J.T. The 'songs of degrees' means 'songs of ascent', moral elevation, every step going upward. But now in Ezra at the dedication of the house I think we come to the direct link, because here they stood in the house of God. Ezra 6:16 says, "And the children of Israel, the priests and the Levites, and the rest of the children of the captivity, kept the dedication of this house of God with joy", that is, this one, the one they had just built under great hardship. God helped them and it is "this house"; that is to say, what we have to do with answers to the original house; we dedicate that, not the original house but this one.

Ques. Referring to the earlier remark in connection with the positional side of the government of God, it is favourable towards this revival as seen in Ezra, Ezra having to do with the positional side and Nehemiah having to do with the state of the people. Is it so today, that God in His government is favourable to the revival, both as seen in Cyrus and now?

J.T. Quite so, it is the dispensation that is seen in Ezra. The position is clear, and now what marks the dispensation is that it is the dispensation of God that is in faith. The original word 'dispensation' involves the house of God; it is the economy house-wise and the house is essential to it. The walls are the protection of it. You cannot have the dispensation of God without the presence of God house-wise, and that is what is in mind here. "This house" is such as we have, and in "this house" God is pleased to be with His people on His own terms. Now the point is to dedicate that, to show that we are thoroughly and fully committed to that. So that it says they "kept the dedication of this house of God with joy; and they presented at the dedication of this house of God a hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs, and for a sin-offering for all Israel, twelve he-goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel. And they set the priests in their classes, and the Levites in their divisions, for the service of God, which is at Jerusalem: as it is written in the book of Moses". So that we can see how the dispensation is here characteristically, the people are committing themselves to it with joy. This house and the offerings are in relation to the twelve tribes, it is a universal thought. The house is always a universal thought.

S.McC. It is a remarkable thing that the offerings double as they proceed -- one hundred, two hundred, four hundred. The thing is intensified as it goes on.

J.T. Very good.

S.P. In Nehemiah it says, "they offered great sacrifices"; here it gives the number. Why is that?

J.T. It is measurement I think; God is the God of measure. And however much we have got He always keeps to His own thoughts. So we do not bring in everything we have in any assembly service; you would bring in what is suitable because He is the God of measure.

J.S.T. I was thinking of John in Revelation, he is given a reed to measure the altar and the house and those who worship. Would that be in keeping?

J.T. I think so. The idea of measure is most important in the things of God, beginning, as you might say, with Exodus. Exodus is the great central thought of the house, the dwelling place of God. Everything there is according to measure. We now arrive at what belongs to God. The inner side is mentioned earlier, but administration would have more to do with the announcements; the gates would be important at that point. Passing on we come to the offerings, that is what is entirely for the heart of God; that belongs to the inner position. The gates and the walls have to do with what is external, so we rightly have our announcements at first and then we proceed to the inner thought in the assembly service. In order to make clear that the dispensation is in mind, the next paragraph beginning with verse 19 says, "And the children of the captivity held the passover upon the fourteenth of the first month". They are in keeping with the thought of Josiah, but the house of God comes first here and its dedication. The next thing is the formal ordinance that characterises the dispensation; that is for us the Lord's supper, but here it is the passover.

J.R.H. The position here is very fine: "For the priests and the Levites had purified themselves as

one man". That is something in advance of what we were reading of Hezekiah yesterday.

J.T. Quite so. You allude to verses 20 and 21. "For the priests and the Levites had purified themselves as one man, they were all pure; and they killed the passover for all the children of the captivity, and for their brethren the priests, and for themselves. And the children of Israel that were come back out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves to them from the filthiness of the nations of the land, to seek Jehovah the God of Israel, did eat" -- these are the people that eat -- "and they kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with joy; for Jehovah had made them joyful, and turned the heart of the king of Assyria to them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel".

S.McC. It is interesting how catholic they were in their thoughts; they killed the passover for all the children of the captivity. That would be helpful today; in our outlook we have in mind the whole position.

J.T. That is, the whole of those who have come out; the children of the captivity would mean we have all been in the captivity. We have learned from it and we take character from it; we are really a remnant restored from the general defection, the general captivity. It is a characteristic word, "the children of the captivity"; we have all had our part in the captivity. We are not there now, we have come back and we have purified ourselves; that is what is meant, these are the ones who ate the passover.

E.P. Does this thought of dedication mean that the position is made clear? I was thinking of the passage in John 10:22, "Now the feast of the dedication was celebrating at Jerusalem, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in the porch

of Solomon". I was thinking that the dedication of the walls and the house would mean that the position was made clear and established.

J.T. And that we have committed ourselves thoroughly to it. We read of persons who have dedicated themselves to the ministry: that is, we have tried the thing out, we have experience with it. We have thoroughly committed ourselves to it. I believe that is what is meant by "this house"; it was not the original house, but such as it is we are committed to it and satisfied so far with it and we are rejoicing. The word 'dedication' would mean we have thoroughly committed ourselves to it.

Ques. Would this exceed 2 Timothy 2?

J.T. I think the idea of 2 Timothy 2 is the gateway into 1 Timothy. We have not lost 1 Timothy, but 2 Timothy is the way into it. We do not speak officially, but we do reach the house, such as it is. It is the house nevertheless. God is there and we have committed ourselves to it in the dedication. We are happily in it.

Rem. The word 'purified' here is the very word used in 2 Timothy 2.

J.T. We are purified from certain things and that makes room for the house. It means we cannot return to cathedrals or anything officially called a church in this world; we have come to the house, what is according to God, and we are going to stay there. We have thoroughly committed ourselves to it.

E.P. So there is peculiar significance attached to "this house"; Jesus walking in Solomon's porch in the feast of dedication would make the position clear in the presence of all the pretension that was there.

J.T. John gives us the official thing among the Jews only to show that something better was coming in that was the real thing.

J.H-t. The dedication is kept with joy, which agrees with what you were saying about being

thoroughly committed to it. It has been said many times when something is established among the brethren -- Well, I will bow to it. That is not the right attitude.

J.T. That is a miserable thing. It is better to bow to it than to be opposed to it, but I should be able to see with the brethren.

G.A.T. If anyone expresses a desire to break bread, what you look for is what is in verse 21, "And the children of Israel that were come back out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves to them from the filthiness of the nations of the land, to seek Jehovah the God of Israel, did eat".

J.T. Quite so; he is cleansing himself from all the filthiness he had been associated with.

S.McC. Verse 22 is most encouraging, that we are now in the position in buoyancy as you have been suggesting: "For Jehovah had made them joyful, and turned the heart of the king of Assyria to them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel". How encouraging that is!

J.T. There is another thought there, the brethren are doing it. For it says, "Jehovah had made them joyful"; that is, He comes in, it is His doing, "For Jehovah had made them joyful, and turned the heart of the king of Assyria to them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel". God has been operating but that comes in last. We have been doing it, but God shows that He is in the thing too. You can see the position in both these choirs, first in the dedication of the fellowship, and now in the dedication of the house. You can see how the brethren have committed themselves to the two thoughts and God says, I am thoroughly with you in it. You could not have reached this point without Me.

REVIVAL (5)

Nehemiah 8:1 - 18; Malachi 3:16 - 18

J.T. I have in mind that we might finish with the feast of tabernacles, and link it up a little with the verses read in Malachi. In order that we might have the position clearly in view, attention should be called to the year -- the spiritual year, and the seventh month. The chapter really begins, "When the seventh month came", the month of great spiritual events, the feast of trumpets and the day of atonement, the feast of ingathering, or the feast of tabernacles. And what may not have been observed by some of us is the stress laid on the people in the first section of the chapter, the general movement amongst the people to hear the word of God; not a movement arising from leadership, though the leaders come into it and help the people. The word in verse 1 is, "And when the seventh month came, and the children of Israel were in their cities, all the people gathered together as one man to the open place that was before the water-gate; and they spoke to Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which Jehovah had commanded Israel". It seems that particular notice should be taken of this because God would give us to understand that the position, the truth, is not to be carried and maintained only by leading brothers or sisters, but that all are brought into it in the sense that they want to know more about the law of Moses.

C.H.H. Would it indicate that one who held the truth should be subject to a call from his brethren?

J.T. That is the way it stands here. You mean Ezra was ready, "And they spoke to Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses"; is that what you mean?

C.H.H. Yes, that servants should hold themselves in readiness where the state is suitable and where they are invited.

J.T. The question arises at this point as to these meetings that are now annual, you may say, these general meetings, as to what underlies them. Is it a movement of the people in the place? Or is it to have a big affair, the matter of serving the saints being secondary? Or is it that we would know more about the will of God? The point the people make is, "They spoke to Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which Jehovah had commanded Israel". Is that the underlying thought?

S.P. Does that show a willingness on the part of the people to come under the law and commandments as being morally suitable to this gathering together?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. It seems to be a movement among the people, a united one; "All the people gathered together as one man". They have recourse to a man available whom God can use, so that "They spoke to Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which Jehovah had commanded Israel". Then we are told, "Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation, both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, on the first day of the seventh month". He is amenable to call, ready, but he moved according to the proposal of the people; a remarkable thing, I believe.

S.McC. In the first verse you read it says, "they spoke to Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses", and then in the second verse it says, "And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation". Is there any significance in that?

J.T. I think the word 'scribe' is a characteristic word connected with his name. It is used in chapter 7 of his own book (verse 6). His priestly status is

unquestionable, shown to be unquestionable in that chapter, and he also was "a ready scribe in the law of Moses". It would seem as if the first thought in asking him to take on this service is "the scribe", that "he was a ready scribe in the law of Moses"; not simply a man that can write well, but a man that can write in the law of Moses, conversant with things relative to the mind of God, ready in that. Evidently the people knew his qualifications.

J.R.H. I suppose the meaning of his name, 'help', would have that in view; the people were seeking help from Ezra. It was not like the prophetic word direct from God; it was more the prompting of the people.

J.T. Seemingly it was a question of exposition, which is not exactly prophetic; an exegetical service to open up, to bring things out that are already there; not a special message from God, but what was already existent in the written page. He is qualified for that, that is the point; it is a question of exposition rather. The Lord Jesus as risen exemplifies this ministry, "he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself", Luke 24:27. It was no question of a prophetic word but bringing the Scriptures to bear upon them.

Rem. It says in Ezra 7:12, "To Ezra the priest, an accomplished scribe of the law of the God of the heavens".

J.T. Yes, "the law of the God of the heavens".

S.McC. This exegetical service that you alluded to would have a large place in a meeting like this.

J.T. A very large place. God seems to use these meetings to open up what is in the Scriptures. A prophetic word is of course immediately from God supported by Scripture, but exegetical service is to bring out the thing that is already there, what God has embedded in the Scriptures, the immensity of the resources in the Scriptures.

Ques. Referring back to the fact that this was held in the seventh month, had you in mind that the saints should come to this matter spiritually in a locality, according to Leviticus 23? The first day was to be a day of rest, and we were going to consider the matter from that point onward.

J.T. I thought it would be well to call attention to the periods of the year. It is not the lunar year that is in mind but what is called the ecclesiastical, spiritual and agricultural year. The year is a matter of crops from the divine point of view, "seed time and harvest", and this month is the harvest month. The idea is therefore to reach the great end in mind in the year, culminating at its end. The year is to be productive. I thought it would be very appropriate that we should finish our readings at the feast of tabernacles, in the end of the spiritual year.

S.McC. Is it like the crown in that sense? "Thou crownest the year with thy goodness", Psalm 65:11.

J.T. It would be that exactly. The seventh month is not the twelfth month, though they had twelve months in their year; the seventh month is the end of the agricultural year, and the agricultural year is the year that tells, because the point in the original divisions after the flood was seed-time and harvest. Other things are subservient to this, "Henceforth, all the days of the earth, seed time and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, shall not cease", Genesis 8:22. Hence the question that arises, What is the harvest in all our exercises? What is the result in the whole matter? If there is no harvest there is nothing gained; there may be a sowing without a harvest. The idea of a harvest is what God brings in. You put your seed into the ground; God causes it to grow; God gives the result.

J.W.D. Do you think these meetings should be on an annual basis, or on the basis of spiritual prosperity in a locality?

J.T. Annual matters on the basis of the twelve-month year are apt to become crystallised and lose freshness. They just come, and we have to go through with them. I think the thought in this chapter is that they should be the outcome of the state or desire of the people. What are we looking for? What are we aiming at? Here they were aiming at the book of the law of Moses and the best available man to give them an understanding of it. It is a matter of the people. We have other scriptures that stress leadership, but here it is the people's matter. These annual meetings are apt to give undue importance to the localities in which they are held, and so lose their force; and the localities themselves are apt to gain the least of all from them, because they are occupied with the service and the like. This chapter is to correct that, we are thinking of "the book of the law of Moses, which Jehovah had commanded Israel".

E.P. Do you think the open place and the water-gate suggest the recognised need of adjustment? What is your thought as to the water-gate?

J.T. I was connecting it with the good judgment of the people. How rightly governed they are in principles! "All the people gathered together as one man to the open place that was before the water-gate". We are dealing now with local matters in an open, transparent way; we are ready for the will of God; we have nothing else in mind. We are open about it and there is plenty of room; the open place means there is plenty of scope for anyone to come, and then the pulpit of wood is to make the matter thoroughly successful. I mean to say, if we are having a meeting like this the consideration of the brethren is that in all the externals there should be nothing to hinder; the meeting-place, the arrangements and time of meetings, everything should be thought out from our side so that the thing should

be a success. This open place suggests there is plenty of room, and the water-gate would suggest that it is a time now for the administration of things that are suggested in water, refreshment, because the promise of old was "Assemble the people, and I will give them water", Numbers 21:16. It does not name any man who is to do it, but "I will give them water". Jehovah promised to do it and the people have that in mind.

E.G.McA. Would you say the people here in this chapter were in the good of what we had this morning, this wonderful procession that reached even to the water-gate eastward? They were in the good of this and so they called this man to expound the law.

J.T. I think that is good.

Ques. Our brother made reference in prayer to the last great day of the feast, and would there be anything in that in relation to this meeting now and the subject in hand?

J.T. Well, we are having a great day; we would expect the last one to be that. You would expect an accumulation of wealth in our meeting.

Ques. I was thinking, they say to the Lord, "Remove hence and go into Judaea". He says, "Go ye up", but He goes up later. The question in my mind is what is in our minds in an occasion like this, whether a set occasion is in our minds. The Lord brings in the water idea, does He not, when He says, "He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water". Does that enter into an occasion like this?

J.T. You are alluding to John 7. The feast was running its course and the Lord evidently implied that they were thirsting and there was really no water, so that the water-gate all centred in Him, "If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink", John 7:37. That was the idea. Those who assembled

at Jerusalem at that time did not have the right thought. His brethren said, "Manifest thyself to the world", but the Lord says, "My time is not yet come"; I am going to have a great display but not yet. But then He went up privately, which is the whole present position; it is a question of the dispensation, to be unknown as regards men. The Lord went up in the last day of the feast when they did not have anything to satisfy their thirst. The water-gate, the administration of the refreshment of God, was not there, but it was in Him. He went up privately, that is the position in John. He cried and said, "If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink" (verse 37). There are several cries recorded, and this is one of the Lord's cries because it was urgent that there should be water administered.

S.McC. The open place was not there either. He went up "not openly".

J.T. He went up privately and that is the position today; our position is obscure but the real thing is there, that is the point.

S.McC. There may be the thought of inviting Ezra, and yet having reserves perhaps. The open place would stand over against that so that there might be full room for Ezra and his exposition of the law.

J.T. I think that is the thought. All these external matters are important and I believe they are applicable now at the end of this series of meetings, that we might be reminded what underlies these meetings in the localities in which they are held. Are they according to God? Are we seeking the will of God? The book of the law of God which He commanded Israel -- that is what is to be in our minds, and then all the externals should conduce to that; everything should be made conducive to that. We should not leave anything to the Lord which we can do ourselves. People often say as to certain externals, We

will leave it to the Lord. It is a very great mistake; we should do it ourselves. The Lord would say, Do it yourselves, you can do it. All the externals that enter into our meeting rooms in a general way should be attended to by us, "And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation ... . And he read in it before the open place that was before the water-gate from the morning until midday, in the presence of the men and the women, and those that could understand. And the ears of all the people were attentive to the book of the law. And Ezra the scribe stood upon a high stage of wood, which they had made for the purpose", Nehemiah 8:2 - 4. Notice that they are not handicapping him in any way; they made this stage for the purpose and he uses what they made; that is, there is every possible convenience to make the matter a success, to make it what it should be.

J.R.H. So that we ought to be free from everything in the way of formality in meetings such as these. Is it your thought that we should be together in the accumulation of previous exercises?

J.T. I think the month, as I said, is harvest month, that is the last month of the agricultural year. Obviously they would have that in mind, their minds would be full of this at the end of the year. And as to what has been remarked about externals, things are attended to; there is nothing to interfere so far as external preparations are concerned, all is conducive to the success of the service, even the pulpit of wood. It was prepared for the occasion, it was not an ordinary one that you would get in an ordinary church; it was one suitable for the purpose. There is no ecclesiastical pretension attached to it; it is an improvised thing, and Ezra would say, I will use that.

H.B. In connection with Peter, Cornelius says, "Now therefore we are all present before God to

hear all things that are commanded thee of God", Acts 10:33.

J.T. Very good; they were all there. Cornelius and his friends were all there. It was his thought; he sent for Peter, just as they asked Ezra here, and Peter was available.

S.McC. What does this pulpit of wood suggest to you, mere externals or some moral thought?

J.T. I do not think it is much more than externals. "And Ezra the scribe stood upon a high stage of wood, which they had made for the purpose"; just a thing simply and thoughtfully made for the purpose and he used it, I suppose the idea was that his voice should be heard. This microphone is God's creature, no matter how it is put together; it is not the devil's creature; just as a high pulpit of wood or a pair of glasses is God's creature; you use it simply because it augments the service.

S.P. Would you say a little more with regard to these meetings becoming crystallised? The pulpit of wood is not something to be put away and taken out next time; it was made for this occasion.

J.T. It is not a fixed thing at all. I think the less crystallised we are in these things the better. Let everything be fresh and ready for the particular occasion in mind.

Ques. What about these thirteen men beside him?

J.T. You may have in your mind that these are the brothers who sit on the platform. I think there is something in that. There are brethren that are more outstanding in supporting the truth. Why should the Spirit of God go over these hard names, difficult to pronounce, so that they should be read before us in the western world thousands of years afterwards? Why should it be? Well, it is God keeping fresh before us that He is taking account of these names. The idea of 'name' is clearly renown, and any little bit of spiritual renown that any one

has God honours. He will honour it even to the mention of the name at a particular time.

J.R.H. Would not the pulpit of wood be the exalted place gift is given in the affections of the saints?

J.T. I think it might be, but it is more that they would like to hear him; as much as to say, We are asking Ezra to give this exposition, we want to hear what he says. It is much more like that.

Rem. The open place suggests that the brother would be given liberty and scope as he came before the brethren. And then the water-gate suggests the spiritual aspect, the refreshment.

J.T. That is good. The water-gate is the idea of the administration of spiritual refreshment, because you must never omit the idea of administration on these occasions, for after all it is a divine administration. We always like to say to the Lord, It is Your matter, but He might say, It is your matter. The great governing thought is that it is the Lord's matter and it is a question of what He administers; for the Father has given all things into His hand and He is ready to administer to us if we give Him opportunity. The incident at Jerusalem in John 7 is one of the most striking. It was the time of the feast of tabernacles, yet there is no provision made for the water-gate; but it is there in the Man who went up privately: "If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified", John 7:37 - 39. That is, He had not yet gone up into heaven, the place of administering, but even so He is already speaking of it.

J.B. Would the thirteen men named here with Ezra be in line with him, to support him in connection with this movement?

J.T. They would. We have these brothers beside him and it says, "And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people, for he was above all the people; and when he opened it, all the people stood up" (verse 5). Notice the constant recurrence of "the people" in this section; it is what they are doing. They went to hear Ezra, they have made this pulpit of wood for him and he is on it and they are all listeners, a very fine position. You may be sure God is going to give results and blessing this time.

E.G.McA. Feasts might become crystallised because of being annual. That is an exercising thought. This scripture would indicate that every external as well as internal condition of the people would make it easy for Ezra to minister. You have thirteen on the platform and thirteen down amongst the people who are ready to minister.

J.T. "And Ezra blessed Jehovah, the great God; and all the people answered, Amen, Amen! with lifting up of their hands; and they bowed their heads, and worshipped Jehovah with their faces to the ground". Then we have these others named, and the Levites "caused the people to understand the law; and the people stood in their place"; so these men that are mentioned are all helpers. Whether they are armour-bearers or supporters of Ezra or whether they are doing the work among the brethren they are helpers.

E.G.McA. The suggestion is that contributions should be helpful, so that the people generally should understand the law.

J.T. Those down among the people like yourself are to make yourselves heard.

T.U. In reference to the numerous mentions of the people, it says their ears were attentive.

J.T. The whole series of facts mentioned shows that the state was there and that it was a movement of God in the people, a most important matter. It is not a question of certain leaders bringing them together, but of their own movement; and the word to everyone here today is, What is my motive in all this?

Ques. I was going to remark that Ezra begins in speaking to God at the outset. Would you help us in regard to which One of the divine Persons we should address in opening a gathering such as this?

J.T. Of course in the Old Testament there was only one Person known; the three Persons in the Trinity were not as yet disclosed, but They are now; and therefore it is a question as to which should be addressed in relation to any given circumstance and that is a question of priestly intelligence. In a meeting such as this, as we begin, it is, I think, in order and seemly to address God. "To us there is one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him", 1 Corinthians 8:6. That is the great general position of christianity; it is one God, the Father, the great general position. But then John tells us, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand" (John 3:35); that of course brings us round to the Person who has the administration in His hand. We have to think of Him because it is a time for administration; whether it be the water-gate or whatever gate it is, it is the time for administration. Every gate refers to Christ and His administrative authority. It is therefore a question of spiritual intelligence as to whether we should address God or the Lord, because they are both God, whether we are addressing One or the Other. In addressing the Lord we are addressing Him in His mediatorial position. Both are right, it is only a question of spiritual intelligence; the Lord may be addressed or the Father may be addressed, God as Father. If it be a matter

of immediate administration I should refer to the Lord Jesus in prayer. It says here, "And Ezra blessed Jehovah, the great God; and all the people answered, Amen, Amen!". So that they begin with worship. Whatever form that might take it seems suitable that all should be directed God-ward, because the great general position is, "One God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him"; and secondly, "one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him". The word 'by' there is administrative, that is, things come in through Him.

C.H.H. Would this indicate the high level on which this revival is? The two previous revivals that we have looked at do not begin with worship but with cleansing and opening doors; but here it begins with worship.

J.T. I think it is very appropriate. Ezra gives the lead now and the people say, "Amen"; they begin the thing but now he is leading. They put him in the place and he is leading in relation to God first; he is carrying them with him. A very important thing in the ministry is to carry the saints with you. Here they say, "Amen, Amen!", meaning that they are thoroughly with him in what he is doing.

Rem. Would it help for all the people to be standing up? We do much sitting down.

J.T. That is another thing, the standing up is good. There is a great deal of it now. The Lord seems to stress it, that we should stand up under certain circumstances, but still we do not want to be attitudinarians. Ours is a dispensation marked by liberty, where sonship reigns. It says of David that he "sat before Jehovah" (1 Chronicles 17:16), which is very unusual; it points to our dispensation, going beyond the old dispensation.

J.R.H. Would you say that the one who leads should promote the spirit of worship in the people who hear the word?

J.T. I think that is a good suggestion for us. They stood up and assented by the words, "Amen, Amen!". We cannot always take examples in the Old Testament literally, but I think it is good for brethren to say, "Amen"; it shows that we are listening and are moving in the current of the Spirit.

Ques. You mean the sisters too when you say the brethren, do you not?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Would the standing represent a priestly sensitiveness among the people to receive the mind of God, as Ezra read from the book?

J.T. I think so, it marks a priest's attitude. You are at attention, ready for priest's service. And then it goes on to say, "And they bowed their heads, and worshipped Jehovah with their faces to the ground"; that is another attitude. External attitude is stressed here. The lifting up of hands is supplicatory; bowing their heads is submission and reverence. There are remarkable spiritual attitudes here which ought to be noted, because we are apt in assembly to be irreverent.

E.G.McA. The additional word 'holy' in 1 Timothy would have some effect upon the bowing and worshipping, would it?

J.T. "Lifting up pious [or holy] hands, without wrath or reasoning", 1 Timothy 2:8. I think that attitude is supplicatory. If I have anything on my hands contrary to God I cannot hold them up. They must be clean hands.

Rem. The man in John 9 was led on to this gradually so that he came to the point where he worshipped, showing that the Lord did not introduce the subject until the man was ready for it, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?". He evidently was ready for the reference to the Son of God.

J.T. Quite so; then he worshipped. I think these are all very important matters in regard of what we

call our general meetings, to take away from them all mere officialism and crystallisation and tradition, any thought of adding to ourselves in the way of distinction because we have this great affair. Let it be a question of the will of God, learning the will of God, "the book of the law of Moses, which Jehovah had commanded Israel". Then it goes on in verse 8, "And they read in the law of God distinctly out of the book, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading". This is a word for those who are ministering; all are taken into account here. "They read in the law of God distinctly ... and gave the sense, and caused them to understand"; that is, we must exercise patience with the brethren. If they do not understand we should seek to make them understand, to get them to understand, because after all hearing is not everything, understanding must be present. Philip says to the eunuch, "Understandest thou what thou readest?" Acts 8:30. If I have not understanding the Lord will give it. The brethren who are able to give understanding to any ought to be ready to do it with patience.

H.B. Shepherd and teacher seems to be one gift in Scripture, as though teaching has to be done in the spirit of the shepherd.

J.T. I think that is right; shepherd and teacher is one gift really.

C.H.H. Would what follows in verse 7 take place after such a meeting as this? Would this occur in principle after the general meetings such as today?

J.T. As has been remarked, it is those who stood among the brethren who caused them to understand. Your thought would be that in the intervals that we should be able to instruct one another, and then to carry the instruction through to our localities. The Lord has helped the brethren generally in attending the large meetings that are being held now, and in

carrying back a synopsis of them and going over them with the brethren on a particular night in their several localities. Not that you want to enlarge on it unduly, but it is good to spread the thing abroad; whatever is there let the brethren get the good of it.

C.H.H. I think the reading occurring from morning until midday may be to suggest what might be the outcome of it, that there was time left to assimilate all that came out in the ministry. These thirteen were able to take it back to their localities.

J.W. Would the verse which says "Send portions to them for whom nothing is prepared", bear on what you have said?

J.T. That is the next thing. Verse 9 is more the prophetic sort of thing coming authoritatively, as you might say, "And Nehemiah, that is, the Tirshatha, and Ezra the priest the scribe, and the Levites that explained to the people, said to all the people, This day is holy to Jehovah your God, mourn not, nor weep. For all the people wept when they heard the words of the law. And he said to them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions to them for whom nothing is prepared; for the day is holy to our Lord; and be not grieved, for the joy of Jehovah is your strength. And the Levites quieted all the people, saying, Be still! for the day is holy; neither be grieved. And all the people went their way, to eat and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great rejoicing. For they had understood the words that were declared to them". I think it is a very fine passage as bringing out the idea of joy. Christianity involves joyfulness; it involves sobriety, of course, and mourning, but there is a time for everything; a time like this is not a time for mourning or confessing, but rather for joyfulness. What God affords to us on these occasions shows that they are worth while attending; God gives us compensation in the sense of joy in these occasions.

One has been struck with the prominence given to rejoicing and gladness in all these scriptures we have read. The Tirshatha, the scribe and the Levites are spiritual enough and authoritative enough to remind the people of this, so that the matter should not be spoiled by what does not properly fit into it. It might fit in elsewhere, but not here. The people need to be stimulated at this time; we all do. So that we return to our localities in the sense of stimulation, resolving to go in more definitely for the things of God. It is worth while to do so. If we have these happy times at these occasions why can we not have them locally? And we can.

S.McC. It is called here "the joy of Jehovah". Would that be an exalted aspect of this rejoicing?

J.T. It was not a matter of their own. Jehovah really was giving the stimulation. I think we all feel in these meetings a divine touch that gives us stimulation and causes joy. The Lord says, "Peace be to you" in John 20, and "The disciples rejoiced therefore, having seen the Lord". Let it be established, this thought of joy. "Rejoice in the Lord always, again I will say, Rejoice", Philippians 4:4.

Ques. This "mourn not, nor weep" -- is there a tendency to droop even with the great ministry we are having? The great tendency is for the saints to droop, so that Ezra and Nehemiah seem to work together to forestall anything like that here.

J.T. The point was to stimulate the people. It was worth while, it was the people's matter. They are set for the things of God, and God is honouring them. He wants them to have the best; I think that is the point. God would love to bring us into the atmosphere of heaven and He brings the atmosphere of heaven where we can really enjoy the thing.

S.R.McC. "Send portions". Are we to take of that spirit?

J.T. Carry the thing to our localities; there is nothing prepared for them, they are not here -- spread it abroad.

J.W. In the administration of matters in localities, is there not a tendency in matters of discipline perhaps that the mourning and weeping would overcome us? But would all this result in God getting a greater place as His joy is our strength?

J.T. I think God would keep this before us, that the dispensation is a victorious one, notwithstanding the great failure in the captivity, the failure of Israel which is not overlooked in this book but is fully confessed. At the same time the dispensation is the dispensation, God is God, the Spirit is the Spirit, the Scriptures are the Scriptures, the assembly is the assembly. Let us make full room for the positive side of the blessing. So that the Lord in opening His mouth in Matthew 5 says, "Blessed" nine times over, as if to stimulate us with blessing.

A.H.P. The Lord's service in the end of Luke is like this. I am referring to where the Lord opens their understanding and then, "He led them out as far as Bethany, and having lifted up his hands, he blessed them. And it came to pass as he was blessing them, he was separated from them and was carried up into heaven. And they, having done him homage, returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God", Luke 24:50 - 53. I wondered if that might answer to the saints as in a scene like this.

J.T. Very much so. It seems to me that in that passage God is rendering a testimony in the temple of what He is ready to give to Israel. It was there for Israel if they were ready for it. The temple was never so joyous as when those saints went into it.

E.P. Do you think in the first epistle of Corinthians there is the reading of the law, and then in the second the service of Paul to console them, "Lest

perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with excessive grief", 2 Corinthians 2:7.

J.T. He speaks much of Titus' joy and his own joy in what had taken place in Corinth through the first letter.

J.S.T. Is the spirit of the dispensation in that verse, "But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ, and makes manifest the odour of his knowledge through us in every place. For we are a sweet odour of Christ to God, in the saved and in those that perish", 2 Corinthians 2:14, 15?

J.T. Quite so. The second letter to the Corinthians is full of this thought, over-abounding in joy. Like the new bottles full of new wine, the bottles are not burst. To verse 12 of our chapter it is the first meeting of the conference; the second is in verse 13. "And on the second day were gathered together the chief fathers of all the people, the priests, and the Levites, to Ezra the scribe, even to gain wisdom as to the words of the law". It is not the people now, only certain ones, the chief fathers of the people and the priests and the Levites. It is a different character of meeting. It is not in the open place and all the people are not mentioned; it is the chief fathers. And now it looks as if there is progress being made, and the elder brethren, invited brethren, spiritual brethren, want to go further. In spite of the great joy of the first day they want to go further. It goes on to tell us, "And they found written in the law which Jehovah had commanded through Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month, and that they should publish and proclaim through all their cities, and at Jerusalem, saying, Go forth to the mount, and fetch olive-branches, and wild olive-branches, and myrtle-branches, and palm-branches, and branches of thick trees, to make booths, as it is written". This is a very important and interesting meeting that has been

taken as a basis for the special meetings in different parts of the world, and I think it is a basis for them, for special invitations to come together, as it says, "to gain wisdom as to the words of the law".

C.H.H. Would you say we have not arrived at this in this country yet?

J.T. No, we have not. The first meeting seems to be as far as we can go in this country. It is just as well for us to accept our limitations for if we do we shall get blessing.

J.R.H. Does the thought of understanding come out in connection with the first day, but the thought of wisdom in the second day?

J.T. That is what we have here. Ezra had done well on the first occasion apparently, and these elder brethren, spiritual brethren, invited men, see that he can do more. God is using this man fully and they come to him now. At the first meeting they ask Ezra to come; the people arrange the matter and then ask Ezra. But this time there is no question of the open place or the water-gate, but of Ezra: they "were gathered together ... to Ezra the scribe"; very remarkable! That is, God is showing that there is more; you can go further and here is a brother who is available. So they say, 'Let us ask him'. It is a question of wisdom, "to gain wisdom as to the words of the law. And they found written in the law which Jehovah had commanded through Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month". That had not been mentioned earlier; it had not been spoken of on the first day of the feast of the seventh month; but on the second day they reach the feast of tabernacles.

Rem. Deuteronomy would be the opening up of the wisdom of the words of the law. That is a book that saints have been much helped by in matters that have arisen in our day.

J.T. Well, quite so.

C.H.H. Would you say that in this particular meeting in verse 13 it is a question of finding things out which you would not have found out in a meeting like the previous one?

J.T. Exactly; the persons present are of greater spiritual depth. Not that there is any reflection on any saint, but there are such things as measure and stature and wealth and princeliness and so forth. All these words denote specialty, and if that specialty affords better conditions for understanding divine things why not employ it? It is a question of using a condition that is conducive to a great end. Then why not employ it? It is only right to employ it.

A.H.P. Some few years ago the Lord used such an occasion as that to bring out the question of His deity.

J.T. Just that. Many such things have come out in that way. The more spiritual the atmosphere, the more likelihood of reaching deeper things. "The Spirit", we are told, "searches all things, even the depths of God", 1 Corinthians 2:10. And then "The spiritual discerns all things" (verse 15). If you have a dozen spiritual men together you have a means in the hands of God that is of great value. Why not use it? God uses it if you allow Him to.

C.H.H. In accepting our limitations, would you not commend that we have it before us that this might obtain in this country?

J.T. Quite so. The Lord is ready for anything if you are ready to go in for it. This seems to be the first incident of this kind and God blesses it. It is remarkable that it comes in just here.

W.McK. What is the idea of dwelling in booths on the second day? How does that apply now?

J.T. That is the next thing to consider, what this feast means. Verses 14 and 15 say, "And they found written in the law which Jehovah had commanded

through Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month, and that they should publish and proclaim through all their cities, and at Jerusalem, saying, Go forth ...". That is, there is a disclosure from this scripture, chapter 23 of Leviticus, that they were to provide the booths. There it is, it is brought out now, and let us act upon it. What does it mean? Well, Israel did it when they came out of Egypt; that was when they were in the very best condition that they had ever been in, "When Israel was a child, then I loved him", Hosea 11:1. Conditions were good; he went after Jehovah in the wilderness and they dwelt in booths. It means they dwelt near one another. They did not need large houses; they could live together. The whole point is that we love one another so that we can be near one another. We notice it here, the getting together in each others' houses after the meetings. How the brethren like it! How happy it is!

W.McK. Uriah the Hittite says when David wanted him to go down and dwell in his own house, "The ark, and Israel, and Judah abide in booths; ... shall I then go into my house?" 2 Samuel 11:11.

J.T. That was in war time, meaning that they were in uncomfortable circumstances as compared with houses. Here the thought is that they so loved one another that they could dwell near one another, the nearer the better.

E.P. Would this apply to the breaking of bread being in houses instead of one large hall?

J.T. It might. It really applies more to the saints' houses. You notice here where the booths were made, they "made themselves booths" (verse 16). They are not concerned about palatial conditions such as you get in the book of Amos; you will find the allusion there to palatial conditions, commodious, well-furnished, well-appointed houses. They are not

concerned about that here; they make booths on the roofs of their houses, in the courts of the house of God and in the open space of the water-gate. They are not concerned about any palatial grandeur or comfort; they are concerned about getting together, getting the saints together. We want to be together whatever the accommodation. The saints are there; the joy is in the presence of the saints.

C.H.H. The prophet Haggai stirred them up by a prophetic word on this occasion, for they had been dwelling in their own ceiled houses previously.

J.T. They could provide their own houses but they could not build a house for the Lord.

S.McC. This getting together in connection with the thought of booths in relation to our households, would promote love in a very practical and simple way amongst us. It is very much needed.

J.T. Very much needed. It would be a great victory if the Lord obtained this at the end, because it is the last feast of the year. It brought about conditions in which the saints are happy with one another whatever the external conditions might be. It is not a question of special friendships here, persons I like particularly, but the saints; because they are the saints I love them.

E.G.McA. I was wondering if these booths in these conspicuous places would indicate that in every locality there are houses open for the brethren as they move through?

J.T. That is right. They are not concerned about appearance, palatial or sumptuous conditions; it is a question of the saints being together near one another. It is the last feast of the year and what does it mean? It is going into eternity; the feast of tabernacles is going into eternity! It is the saints loving one another. We are not fit to go to heaven if we do not love one another. This feast means we come near to one another and we do not want to

go up without one another. God "has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus", Ephesians 2:6.

E.P. In 1 Corinthians 11:22 the rich were putting to shame those who had not; but in the second epistle under the ministry of the new covenant and reconciliation they would all be rich in the precious thoughts of God.

J.T. Very good. The rich made much of their riches according to the first epistle and they were despising the poor, contrary to the feast of tabernacles.

Rem. God Himself indicated this nearness in Christ coming down in flesh Himself, God Himself dwelling among men.

J.T. He tabernacled amongst us. The word 'tabernacled' is used, which is the idea of the booth, "The tabernacle of God is with men" (Revelation 21:3); God comes near to them, living amongst them.

E.G.McA. Would James have the thought of the booth, the tabernacle, in his second chapter, in his reference to the rich man with the gold ring?

J.T. Quite so.

S.P. You do not go down to Cyprus as Barnabas and Mark did in Acts 15; Paul and Silas go through Syria and Cilicia to see how the brethren are getting on.

J.T. Very significant. In a future day anybody that does not come to the feast of tabernacles will get no rain; there is no love unless you come to the feast of tabernacles. There is much more that could be said about how these booths were made; it says, "Go forth to the mount" (verse 15), and then we are told that "all the congregation of them that had come back from the captivity made booths" (verse 17). So that we are back nearer to the beginning in this feast than in any of the others we have considered.

C.H.H. Would that suggest the testimony of the assembly's history, that it comes back to apostolic days?

J.T. Well, I think so; it would be as at the beginning; love now is the same as love at the beginning. It is the same thing; I think that is the idea, that the dispensation should end with that; the saints loving one another, getting near one another, going up together. We "shall be caught up together" it says.

Ques. Would these branches be the features of Christ?

J.T. I think each one has its own meaning. We can weave into the olive branches features of the Spirit. Myrtle branches would allude to evergreens, the freshness of life. Palm branches would refer to victory, and we have thick trees for protection.

Ques. This great spiritual height must be reached as a direct result of this meeting of the brothers. Would you say how this might work out today in these meetings such as you have in England, how they might affect the whole assembly to such a point as this?

J.T. It has been suggested that we might have them in this country or in Canada, but we have not been able to reach it as far as I can see. The character of our general meetings is more like the first day. I am sure God would be with us in helping us to reach the second day, to get to the higher level the Scriptures afford, "Also day by day, from the first day to the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they observed the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according to the ordinance". I think the eighth day leads into what is beyond.

J.R.H. I suppose it is possible to enjoy the feast of booths without having the second day as we have been looking at it together?

J.T. I think it is. I think we do enjoy it, love is amongst us, thank God. It indicates, I think, a definite point reached when we are able to do something because of love. This gathering is built up on the fact of love, not in the abstract but in actual love. The Lord says, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", John 13:35. That alludes to it as having a quantity of it. If you have got that then you can proceed with this feast.

J.W. Would the result be seen in Malachi, in the book of remembrance being written?

J.T. I think it would be well to finish with that. The verses read speak of persons answering to the mind of God in a state of things which is wholly adverse to His mind. The word "Then" in verse 16 calls attention to the contrast, to conditions at a given time; 'then' is an adverb of time; the sentence begins with it. The early part of the chapter describes the external conditions. How objectionable to God they were! In verse 13, "Your words have been stout against me, saith Jehovah; but ye say, What have we been speaking against thee? Ye say, It is vain to serve God; and what profit is it that we keep his charge, and that we walk mournfully before Jehovah of hosts? And now we hold the proud for happy; yea, they that work wickedness are built up; yea, they tempt God, and they escape". That is what marked the time. The word "Then" is to call attention to a particular time, and how abominable to God the conditions were! But then there are those, very few but seen by God, those few in that time, in that particular time, those "that feared Jehovah" and "spoke often one to another". It is a well-known passage. I think it is well to call attention to the adverb "Then"; it is God putting things against each other. What delight He has in the saints who fear His name and speak often one to another!

W.G.T. It seems to correspond with the feast of booths. The real thing is right here, getting the actual branches, the doing of the thing.

J.T. We are not told what they say, it is just that they are dwelling close to one another, brethren talking with one another about what is profitable.

C.H.H. Would it fit in with the second prayer of the apostle, "being rooted and founded in love"?

J.T. Quite so. And how the divine thought is reached in this last book! How God comes back to the thought of sonship, which He began with in those few, the greatest thought, "They shall be unto me a peculiar treasure, saith Jehovah of hosts, in the day that I prepare; and I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him", "His own son", very precious!

H.B. Would the expression, "I will spare", link on virtually with the words, "I also will keep thee"?

J.T. Quite so. God will do His best to protect us from everything that is against us. It is a comfort that the Lord has made that promise; I think we ought to reckon on it; "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial". We are entitled to count on that promise, we are to be kept out of it.

THE OPERATIONS OF GOD AT THE PRESENT TIME

Jeremiah 18:1 - 10; Ezekiel 37:1 - 14

I wish to speak on the operations of God at the present time, particularly the sphere of these operations, and in entering on this subject to remind the brethren that in operating, God has entered into an economy, the wording conveying it is, "To us there is one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him", 1 Corinthians 8:6. That is the idea of God as presented in the economy in His supremacy as of the Source of all, "of whom all things".

Our minds thus understand that the operations are God's, but that there is in the economy the idea of instrumentality, and that the instrumentality is commensurate with the idea of God -- not creature instrumentality, but divine -- commensurate with the idea of God, and yet operating subordinately. All things are of God, but they are effected by Him who is said to be "one Lord, Jesus Christ". There is no limitation to the power of the instrumentality; it is a glorious one, "All things" are by Him. The word 'by' means instrumentality, and hence we are enjoined in another epistle, "that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts, being rooted and founded in love", Ephesians 3:17. "The Christ" there is an operative term; it refers to Christ as the great divine Operator in the economy into which God has come. He is to be in our hearts, "the Christ", the great divine Operator; and He is to dwell in our hearts by faith. When He begins to operate directly in relation to the coming world, all will be manifest: "When the Christ is manifested who is our life, then shall ye also be manifested with him in glory", Colossians 3:4. Then it

will no longer be a matter of faith; we shall "be manifested with him in glory". In the meantime the operations are carried on in a way which the natural eye cannot discern and the natural mind cannot take in; it is for faith. The great divine Operator is to be in our hearts, as it is said, on the principle of faith; but we as "rooted and founded in love".

As I said, in speaking of this I have in mind to call attention to the sphere of these operations at the present time, that is, the saints. Of God's work in relation to creation we are told, "By whom also he made the worlds", Hebrews 1:2. It is a wonderful thought, how they were made: "By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God" (Hebrews 11:3), but the actual means, the detail, is not disclosed. The immensity of the matter indeed, dear brethren, places it beyond the compass of the creature: "by faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God". That does not mean we can compass the matter, for it is so vast; it is beyond the creature's mind to grasp. Still, we are not left out of it; God would not leave us out of anything in that sense. "The sons of God shouted for joy" (Job 38:7), at the time of the foundation of the earth; God let them into it in some sense so that they understood something of it and rejoiced, "shouted for joy". Divine operations always carry that thought; they are wonderful, not simply awe inspiring, but cause joy to those who are in the relation of sons, the sons of God.

We have come into that relation on a higher level than those sons spoken of in the book of Job. We are in relation to Christ, and let into more than they were let into. So that our joy should certainly be always full; every vista of creation ought to occasion joy. Wisdom says that in all this, "I was there" (Proverbs 8:27), and I was "rejoicing". It says wisdom rejoiced, showing that there was good reason for it,

it was not mere sentimental exuberance. There is a good reason for it when wisdom rejoices, and moreover, "my delights were with the sons of men", Proverbs 8:31.

The Scriptures are freighted with the idea of delight and joy, dear brethren, carrying us along like a river triumphantly in glory. The Spirit of God is here today bringing in the whole matter, in principle at least, "the earnest of our inheritance" (Ephesians 1:14), bringing it into all our hearts. Well now, the sphere of all the operations of God in the economy is men: "rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth, and my delights were with the sons of men", showing that that is the great idea with God in His creation -- that God brought Christ in where men are, and expressed His delight in Him. That is, He gives the real, supreme lead in all that, both to God and to us: "in whom I have found my delight", Matthew 3:17. That voice at the Jordan was intended to give impetus to all that was there, all that was current in the way of faith, to stimulate the whole matter and bring the new order of things into being and set it going by the glorious Man "in whom I have found my delight". It has never ceased, never; it has widened to the inclusion of all the sons. We are brought into that blessed relation to God, with the One "in whom I have found my delight". So God is working with material entirely congenial; that is what I wanted to speak on in Jeremiah.

First I want to show that the prophet in each case is brought into a sphere, directed into a sphere, and the operation is going on, or about to go on. In Jeremiah the sphere is styled "the potter's house", not a potter's factory, but a potter's house. The antitype is in the mind of the Spirit, dear brethren, always, and so God is operating house-wise in this wonderful time. The beautiful thought in John 8:35 is that the son abides in the house for ever; He is

there in that relation as a divine Operator, the Son. What is He doing? He sets free. Immediately preceding that beautiful verse we have the Lord's own words to those who have professedly believed on Him; as disciples of His they should know the truth and the truth should set them free.

Now what one observes in difficulties amongst the people of God is that generally we are governed by persons in our judgment and in our movements. In a certain sense it is right for young people, especially, to follow their leaders, obey their leaders, but if that be mentioned we are introduced to the thought of Christ, "the same yesterday, and today, and to the ages to come", Hebrews 13:8. We are not to slip away from Christ through any leader. The true leader says, "Ye became our imitators, and of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 1:6); he passes them on to the Lord. I should be exceedingly grieved to think I misguided anybody through personal influence. Any lead one gives should direct to the Lord, should go on that line. So that the truth is the first thing in this matter; the Lord says, "The truth shall set you free" (John 8:32) -- the truth will do it. Hence the point is to begin with the facts of any case and the principles involved governing it. "The truth shall set you free"; and then in the beautiful passage I quoted, the precious pre-eminent Person must be "the Son". He is operating in the house; He would have us in the house; it is the place of affection. So He says, "If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free", John 8:36. He abides in the house for ever, the servant does not.

And so here it is not the potter's factory, but the potter's house, for God would not descend to the thought of a factory or a workshop; He would say to us, I am operating in a sphere of affection. The very surroundings would help you in the operation. Well, what is the operation? He is making something,

we are told, on the wheels. It says, "I went down to the potter's house; and behold, he wrought a work on the wheels" (verse 3). It is a remarkable thing -- the wheels revolve, you know, and acquire momentum as they go. He was operating on the wheels and the vessel of clay that he made "was marred, as clay, in the hand of the potter". It is still clay, it is not a finished vessel, it is still in the making. The marring has happened but that is not final. The potter has his own thought and he can remake the same material; and it says, "as seemed good to the potter to make".

Now, dear brethren, one would say that each of us is in the hand of the Potter, each christian, from Paul down. The great apostle was in the hand of the Potter; it is a question of discipline. We are in the making all the time. The Lord says to Peter and Andrew, "I will make you"; the principle is that the operation is going on among the brethren, among the saints. The Potter is operating on the wheels in His house, and marring takes place. What causes this marring? It is a moral matter; it is a moral issue, and hence the remedy is given in the explanation; it is when the person repents that the Maker proceeds to form the vessel as He would wish him to be, as it pleases Him. That is the point, dear brethren. Every one of us is in the making, nobody is to assume that he is a finished vessel. You are not a finished vessel. We are in the making and we do not want to get out of the hands of the Potter in that sense. The marring takes place through the action of our wills, no other way; that is what happened in Adam. We have to take this book allegorically, we have to place it in relation to divine operations in man. In the beginning man became marred in the hands of God, but God did not throw him away. He retained the thought and the process went on, but the moral issue must be faced; and so the explanation is in verses 7

and 8: "At the moment that I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to break down, and to destroy, if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turn from their evil, then I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them". That is to say, the identity is the same. The true reading is, "the vessel that he made was marred, as clay, in the hand of the potter", meaning that the thing is there, the material is there yet.

Now, dear brethren, let us put ourselves into this, what God is in His love to us, in His operations today. We are in the making, and if there be a marring, what is the secret of it? The exercise of will, nothing else but the exercise of my will. Let Satan in, and of course he mars the vessel; it is his business, as it were, to do that, to act against God. As every single christian believer in Christ comes into being on this earth, Satan is set to damage him. "Hast thou considered my servant Job?", God says (Job 1:8). 'I have considered him' -- that is the answer immediately. 'I have considered him'. What has he considered him for? To mar him. Job was in the making, as each of us is, and Satan is watching, 'I have considered'. Satan would say, 'How can I get in there?' God fences us round, or Satan would soon overwhelm us. The Lord says to Peter, "Satan has demanded to have you, to sift you as wheat; but I have besought for thee that thy faith fail not", Luke 22:31, 32. Satan has desires; he meditates. How is the vessel going to be marred? It is marred in the hand of the potter, marred as clay. Thank God for the thought of the clay, that it is still usable and not gone. Judas is gone for ever, gone to his own place. His place was fixed -- a most solemn thing.

In the next chapter we have the prophet directed to another sphere, the gate of the pottery, not the house. It is not marred pottery now -- it is a finished vessel, but this flagon is to be broken; this vessel is

broken to pieces, meaning there is no salvation for it. The matter is fixed as in the case of Judas. It was a most solemn thing in the matter of Judas, the matter was fixed and he goes to his own place. Peter was marred, as many of us have been, but he was in the making. But then there was this action of will; Satan is ready to get in in the action of will, and hence the marring, but it is the marring as clay. A truly converted person can never be other than clay, in some sense usable to God to make something out of him. You want to let God make the best out of you, make you like Christ; that is His ideal. I have My pleasure in Him, God says, "In whom I have found my delight". If He has delight in me it is because I am like Christ. I am in the making and God is making me according to Christ; and if I am marred because of the action of my own will God would say, I am not going to change My mind about you, I will carry on.

I was speaking about the finished vessel in chapter 19 being a fixed matter, there is no hope for it. In chapter 19 it is the valley of Hinnom; it is Gehenna, the lake of fire for Judas and for the man of sin. There are many whose destiny is fixed before they die, let nobody forget that; I mean from the divine side; Judas' was fixed, that of the man of sin was fixed. Many others are like that, persons even classified as the Lord's, their destiny is fixed. It is very solemn. But then, even as to christians, my place in the testimony may be final; I mean to say, if I pursue a course of will as in the assembly. People must behave rightly in the house of God. People coming into the presence of God, into the assembly and misbehaving are not only in a wrong attitude of mind, but it is actually wrong behaviour in the presence of God. The time may come when that behaviour may be fixed on you. You will not be lost, but your position in the testimony is fixed,

that you have no more part in it -- a most solemn thing. It says, "But he shall be saved, but so as through the fire" (1 Corinthians 3:15); but you have no more part in the testimony. In 1 Corinthians 14:38 we are told, "But if any be ignorant, let him be ignorant", the matter is fixed. He has settled the matter himself; his will is governing him. He has had every opportunity, and God would say, Let him be that, such as he is. As a matter of fact he is asleep in the mind of God: "On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep", 1 Corinthians 11:30. In the mind of God these people are finished as regards the testimony here; it is most solemn. If we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged with the world; it is a dreadful thing to be judged with the world. Think of the period fixed on the divine calendar! This person is out of the testimony, he has got out of it, his will is acting; he is obdurate and ignorant, and will be ignorant. He has shut his eyes to the truth. It is most solemn! "On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep". When a person sleeps he is finished, he is out of it as regards the testimony -- not as regards his eternal salvation, thank God! It is the action of will, and God abominates it. If any man will be filthy -- go and speak to him? No! -- let him be filthy still. The matter is fixed, "He that is holy, let him be sanctified still", Revelation 22:11. Thank God, there is that side too, do not alter it, keep on, blessed happy thought, keep on in that. "Let him that does unrighteously do unrighteously still", think of God saying that! The matter is fixed.

Well now, here our parable teaches us that in this instance it is not fixed. The vessel is marred only, but it is still clay, it is plastic. It is still such as the potter can use for his design, to make it according to his design. It is not hardened like the flagon in the

next chapter that can be broken; it is marred as clay, it is still usable for the purpose of the potter. Peter was still usable, although he failed. He was very marred in the palace of the high priest, but he came round in the making. He was made just what the Potter intended him to be; he submits, he stretched forth his hands. "When thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and bring thee where thou dost not desire", John 21:18. He is carried to martyrdom, which he so wished -- to be like his Master; he is taken on by Christ as He intended him to be. The Lord had said, I will make you something, and he was finally made in the hands of the Potter what the Potter intended him to be. Now, dear brethren, the point is, let us surrender our naughty wills, let us be in the hands of the Potter in every matter. He will make us according to His own designs, a most happy and precious thought; the Lord will carry out His will as we remain clay. The clay is still usable, not a hardened will, but usable for the Potter for what He has in His mind.

Well now, we will go on to Ezekiel. It is another scene. Here the operator is the prophet; in Jeremiah the Operator is God. Now the operator is in the main the prophet, and he is directed into the scene as we are told, "The hand of Jehovah was upon me, and Jehovah carried me out in the Spirit, and set me down in the midst of a valley; and it was full of bones". It is full, it is a big matter, a very big matter, and the Lord would encourage us to go in for big matters. Men love to be big, and there is no city more marked by that than this very city of Detroit, by big affairs and men big by their affairs. It is the affairs that make them big, not what they are morally; it is their affairs, their circumstances. So this is a big affair, the valley is full of the bones and the word of the prophet is, "And he caused me to pass by them

round about; and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and behold they were very dry" (verse 2). That is, this operator is capable of passing judgment on the material, as indeed every operator should be that God would take on. He takes us on as those who are intelligent in what we are doing, and He would have us to understand the material we are dealing with. It is not clay now, this is another matter; it is bones, and the operator moves round about them. There are a lot of them, it is a big affair, and they are very dry, meaning that this operation is going to be very difficult.

What can be done with a valley full of very dry bones? But bones are marks of identification. "bone to its bone", they allude to the framework of the individual. That is, identification comes into view as bone comes to bone. We say of one and another, He is a tall man, he is a stout man, he is a man of big frame. As soon as bone begins to come to bone we find the identity of the man by his size and framework; this is what God intended him to be. These bones refer to past history. They were not always mere bones, they refer to past history. What is to be done with this great matter? I believe, dear brethren, that the great thought of prophecy is the secret of facing a big matter of this kind.

Prophecy is, I think, the first gift mentioned in Scripture -- I mean gift in the sense of ability to serve. It is exercised by Enoch, and Abraham is formally called a prophet. It is a very old instrumentality for service and is efficient in great matters. I would cite to you how prophecy is connected with great matters in Scripture. In Abraham's case he is brought to the attention of the reigning monarch of the time as a prophet. Who can gauge the power of the prophet? Hear him speak! Another man, Elijah, says to the reigning king, "There shall not be dew nor rain these years, except by my word", 1 Kings 17:1.

You see how the thought is linked up with great things.

And so here this is a very great matter. It is the whole house of Israel from that point of view -- I mean in regard to the earthly side of God's operations. It is the greatest matter in relation to God's operations on the earth. The assembly is the greatest matter in regard to His heavenly operations; there is no greater matter than the assembly. We are having to do this very night with the greatest of matters, namely, the assembly of God, and it is being built up, the members made to live from their graves morally. This is not a question of the literal grave; it is persons who are morally dead. But I would repeat for the encouragement and stimulation of everyone here that we are occupied with the greatest of matters. It is a big affair; there is nothing bigger than what we are engaged with, though it may seem very little outwardly; still we are occupied with the greatest work, the assembly of God. All gift and every bit of service has that in mind, it is for "the edifying of the body of Christ", Ephesians 4:12. Is it not worth while coming into it? May I not appeal to everyone here to come into it actively? It is a great work. God will be with everyone who addicts himself to it.

"And he said unto me, Son of man, Shall these bones live? And I said, Lord Jehovah, thou knowest". The prophet could discern "there were very many", but he does not undertake to say that they can live. I sympathise with him, for I know how difficult the material is that we have to deal with. One knows in one's self what pains, what trouble, what expense one has been to the Lord, and so it is with every one of us. How hard we are at the outset, how dry, how difficult to affect, to form in the things of God! It is better not to leave these things, but to face them. These are most difficult times; still the work is the same great work. The prophet here says,

I do not know. The Lord does know. There are many who use that word too often, they say, The Lord knows. Of course He knows, but others know too. Do not say, The Lord only knows; do not say that. How do you know others do not know? There are plenty of brothers and sisters who know far more than you think. They know what has led up to this; they know what has happened; it is well known. Do not forget it, do not deceive yourself. What is spoken in your closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetop. You think it is all secret, but it is known. The prophet however says, "Lord Jehovah, thou knowest". Then the word comes to him again, "And he said unto me, Prophesy over these bones, and say unto them, Ye dry bones, hear the word of Jehovah" (verse 4).

Now let me say to any young brother saying a word in the ministry meeting. Bear in mind, the Lord will give you His mind if you want it. Do not flatter the brethren in your address. Notice the word here that he is to use, "Ye dry bones, hear the word of Jehovah". A true prophet will tell you just what you are and it is the very best service he can render, "Ye dry bones, hear the word of Jehovah". Oh, you say, so and so might say, You are hard on the brethren, we will not invite you again; you are too severe on us. That happens; people do not like to be told the truth! It is Ezekiel who discovers that they are dry and Jehovah says, Say that, say what you see; just tell them. The word is "Hear the word of Jehovah"; oh, do not turn a deaf ear in any difficulty that exists, do not turn a deaf ear to the word of the Lord! "Hear!", it is your only hope. That word divides asunder between soul and spirit, joints and marrow, a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight. The word of God is like that, and verse 5 says, "Thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto

these bones, Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live. And I will put sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live, and ye shall know that I am Jehovah". What encouragement there is! You are the very ones, you know, not somebody else. Look at the recurrence of the words 'you' and 'ye'! You are the ones, wherever the word is ministered; it is the present people that are in mind always.

There are great promises here. You are going to come together in all your pristine beauty. It is a question of life, of the identity of the person, whatever he has been before. The bones are his identity. God is going to clothe him now according to His own thought. Let Him do it! It is all for you, do not put it from you. Well, it says in verse 7, "And I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a rustling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone". Now God's work is beginning; the prophet has done his part and God is beginning to work. And so there was a noise and a shaking and the bones came together. "And I looked, and behold, sinews and flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them" (verse 8). The sinews and flesh and skin are all there now, but the identity is in the bones. God is going to beautify you as you have never been before; so it goes on to say, "And he said unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah, Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live".

The word 'breath' is used. The 'wind' is the great general thought, but 'breath' is really a personal thought and would connect with the New Testament. They were made to live by the breath of God. Why should we hold back? Why should we not place ourselves

through the prophetic word in the presence of God? There is a noise, a rustling of bone coming to bone, then sinews come up, flesh comes up and skin comes up. It is all now referring to the thought of beautification. And then breath comes in so that everyone stands on his feet; it is not a small matter, it is a great army; we come into a great matter, though outwardly small. So it goes on to say, "And I prophesied as he had commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. And he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off! Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, O my people, and bring you into the land of Israel" (verses 10 - 12). Think of those words 'you', 'ye' and 'your'. God says, I will take you out of these limited circumstances. It is that in actual realisation but I will take you out of that. Do let Me do it! I will take you out of your graves, for I have been opening your graves. He recognises them now; He says, "O my people", and says "I will ... bring you into the land of Israel". Do not stay out of this, it is yours! God is ready to take you out of all these gloomy circumstances into which your own unfaithfulness and your will have led you, and to set you up in your own land, the land of Israel, a very precious thought. It is a great matter, as I said before, but still every one of us is to be brought into it. God wants every single saint of His in all this. The significance of the stressing at the present time of the prophetic word is to this very end, that the sons of God, every one, should be brought into all this and into the full thought of His purpose, beautified with all new sinews, new flesh, new skin and new life by the very

breath of God Himself; so that we stand up with an exceeding great army and have part in the land of Israel. "And I will put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I will place you in your own land, and ye shall know that I Jehovah have spoken, and have done it, saith Jehovah".

Dear brethren, I suppose what I have said is clear. There is a word in it. It is the attitude of God in the prophetic word at the present time, so that His people should be in the enjoyment of their greatest blessings.

THE ANOINTING (1)

Luke 4:16 - 22; Acts 10:34 - 38; Exodus 30:22 - 33

J.T. I was thinking of the anointing; we get it first seen in the Lord Jesus. In this series of meetings I want to refer first to the Lord, and then to the way a believer comes in as having part in it; then to how the assembly comes into it in a collective sense, and then to the priesthood in which the saints come into it as priests and as prophets. It is thought that the consideration of this great subject will help us in view of current conditions. I have in mind how they affect the saints individually and in our local settings, our care meetings, the meetings for the service of God, meetings for discipline, in fact all meetings. The idea is that it implies dignity in a moral sense in us and ability to take in divine things and speak of them one to another, and, especially, ability in those who serve, specifically essential gift. It is thought that we should consider it first as seen in Christ, as setting out the full thought, and so Luke has been selected. Both books selected in the New Testament were written by Luke, and he has in mind order and dignity, ornamentation in christianity, especially in the specific services. Hence this incident in Nazareth is selected because it is a local position where the Lord was brought up, where He is seen in His service as representing all these things, beautification in the service. He is seen in a personal sense as serving, but He is also seen in a personal sense as known in the place. Therefore we shall not lose power in the locality where we reside if the anointing has its place with us.

It is significant that the Lord began, according to Luke, in the synagogue at Nazareth. In this gospel He bases his service on a scripture from the Old Testament, linking on at once the ministry in the Old Testament with the New, so that both Old and

New Testaments are bound together in His ministry as having equal authority. The Lord's own personal attractiveness is seen in this passage; it is said they wondered when He sat down: "The eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed upon him"; and then He said, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your ears. And all bore witness to him, and wondered at the words of grace which were coming out of his mouth". In Acts in Peter's account of Him it says that He was anointed by God and went about doing good, and it adds that the anointing was "with the Holy Spirit and with power". So we have this specific instance of the anointing with power. Anointing carries the idea of power with it, and then God follows up what He does in selecting a vessel by being with Him in His services.

Ques. Would the incident of the baptism of the Lord in Luke 3 give us an indication of what kind of experience preceded this? The fact there of the Father speaking after the Lord comes out of the water, "Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight", expresses the feelings of the Father, so that when He goes to the synagogue in Nazareth He is in dignity and power in the sense of it.

J.T. That is very good, entering into our inquiry. It is what precedes the anointing, what is historical; and then the Person anointed comes into view. There is always a moral ground for what God does and what may be added is that in the beginning of chapter 4 He was led by the Spirit: "Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness". That is not simply that He was led into it, but led in it, laying the basis as an example for us, "for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God", Romans 8:14.

One of the main features of the anointing is that God can identify Himself with it. Jesus by Himself represented God, as it says, "God has been manifested

in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit" (1 Timothy 3:16), so that everything He did was approved by the Spirit. But then further Peter says, "God was with him", that is, He joins the vessel He selects, the vessel is dignified enough for that. That, I think, is of prime importance, so that there is the representation of God here and He can join the Person who has been anointed. And so in the book of Job we have Job representative of God in the first two chapters, and then Job really failing God, for he dropped to the level of his three friends in arguments. Then Elihu comes in; he justifies God in everything and God comes in after him and identifies Himself with him, which brings about the end of the work in hand, and Job is delivered.

A.N.W. Why does Isaiah say, "The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me, because Jehovah hath anointed me"? Is the anointing seen in Luke 4?

J.T. Yes, that is what he is alluding to. It says, "And the book of the prophet Esaias was given to him; and having unrolled the book he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach glad tidings". That is, he associates the Spirit of God coming upon Him with the glad tidings. The Spirit is the anointing really.

Rem. The Spirit comes down in chapter 3. The Spirit descending and abiding is an inward sort of thing.

J.T. Yes, and the Lord bases what He is doing in chapter 4 on an Old Testament scripture; it is not what He is saying Himself authoritatively, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me". Anointing and the Spirit of the Lord upon Him would synchronise.

A.N.W. "The Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form as a dove upon him; and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son", Luke 3:22.

J.T. The dove character would mean that He was sensitive; the sense of complacency in the Person would mean that the anointing synchronised with the Spirit's presence. It is a matter between heaven and earth, between Father and Son, in the third chapter, but it comes out here where the service is more in mind in a way that affects us. We have the earnest of the inheritance, God is upon us, He has sealed us and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. The sealing indicates divine ownership.

J.W.D. (Remark about the anointing of Old Testament kings.)

J.T. Just so, we should see how kings are anointed. The whole position seems to be set out in the Lord, that is to say, in what was true of Himself. He says, "If I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then indeed the kingdom of God is come upon you", Matthew 12:28. The approval of God had come upon Him because He was operating by this inward power, though in Luke it is evident in outward power and the beautification of the service.

J.B. (Remark as to our learning to take character from the Lord.)

J.T. That is what we get into in time. We follow this example, the perfection of it, of the Lord in His own time. And note how He links with it the Old Testament; so that the Old Testament should never be dissociated from the New Testament as being of less value.

This is the best example that can be given of how order marked the Lord. Take yourself as a minister of the gospel or of the truth, and then look at the Lord here. It is said, "He entered, according to his custom, into the synagogue on the sabbath day". He would not be a stranger, because it was the town in which He was brought up. He had been serving already but now He is serving in His own town,

suggesting what we are to be in our respective places of residence. "He entered ... into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up to read". It would be quite enough if we were just told what scripture He read, but it says, "He ... stood up to read", and it is for a purpose. His movements and the fact that He stood up are taken account of. If we extend that to the meetings, it bears on how we sit there; it would not be with our legs crossed as though we were in a railroad station; we should recognise that we are in a holy place and the Spirit's presence should be seen and felt. "The book of the prophet Esaias was given to him". It belonged to the synagogue; it was the local meeting room, we might say, and the Bible was there, the Holy Scriptures, and the Lord was treated with respect by those who were there. "And the book of the prophet Esaias was given to him; and having unrolled the book he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach glad tidings to the poor". He was not there simply on His own account but, as before pointed out, as One who could do this in the representation of God. So the very selection of Scripture is in keeping with this matter of how we serve. It is of great importance that the Spirit enables us to find what is suitable and gives power in every movement. It would have been much more difficult to find a scripture then than now. We must be in power in these details because the congregation will lose interest if we lose power.

In spite of the underlying opposition the Lord was not affected by it. All the eyes were fixed on Him. But to go on, it says, "He has anointed me", and then He says what the anointing is for, "to preach glad tidings". He would be a preacher, an evangelist, a prophet, whatever God had in mind. And then it goes on to say what He is to do, "to preach to captives deliverance, and to the blind

sight, to send forth the crushed delivered, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord". Then it says He rolled up the book; that is another part of the service, and "when he had delivered it up to the attendant, he sat down". What would that teach us? The Spirit of God tells us all about it in a perfect Model, it shows that all movements should be controlled by spiritual power. And then it says, "And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed upon him". He had the great advantage of being in such power in His ministry as to overcome the opposition which was there against Him. We have the whole thing put before us, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your ears". It applies to this very place and this very day; that is the way Scripture should be looked at.

L.E.S. (Remark as to Peter's preaching in Acts 10.)

J.T. That is the apostle, and they were attentive to him. You cannot think of them being anything else. But think of Peter starting out to preach and the local brethren not knowing about it! The local position should be attended to. Some complain because others go off to preach and they do not know anything about it. We must be attendants on the Word; if I go off and the brethren in New York do not know, I am neglecting the position there. Going out to preach is somewhat attractive; but day in and day out looking after the brethren is eldership, and that is what we need. We have both things to think of; we may accept an invitation to preach but then there is the local position to be attended to as well, and that is very often neglected.

Remark as to "attendants on the Word".

J.T. The attendant here handed Him the Bible, but in Luke 1 the writer speaks of "those who from the beginning were eye-witnesses of and attendants on the Word".

Remark as to 2 Corinthians 6, "fellow-workmen".

J.T. Paul is making much there of what the apostles were, because they were being neglected.

U.O.G. (Question as to inviting brothers to preach.)

J.T. In your locality do you invite brothers to preach because they are brothers, or because they have a gift? As it has been remarked, in chapter 3 "the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form as a dove upon him", pointing to personality, and then "a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight". That stresses the Lord's personality; you look at Him as well as hearing what He says. The spirit of the bride in Canticles would fit in here; how she would admire Him!

Ques. (Further question as to inviting preachers.)

J.T. Oh, yes, I think the idea of invitation is good: "Pass over into Macedonia and help us", Acts 16:9. But I am sure it is not right to put the service of preaching on one who does not have the ability. The ministry should be in dignity.

A.N.W. The hearers are thus attracted.

J.T. If they turn against the Lord afterward they are doubly responsible because they have seen Him in His attractiveness suggested by the servant.

Remark as to standing up and sitting down in serving.

J.T. Sitting down suggests that you are reposeful and deliberative, you are settled to go through with a matter; but a discourse is usually given standing up.

Rem. You were speaking of those who preach, but the angel could say to Mary, "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and power of the Highest overshadow thee", Luke 1:35. Is what you are saying more from the masculine side?

J.T. Yes, because we are dealing with specific gift, "according to the measure of the gift of the Christ". Correspondingly in 2 Corinthians 1 it is

said that "he that ... has anointed us, is God", but the "us" there would include all christians; we are all sealed and given the Spirit as the earnest. Yet even if we confine ourselves to gift the idea of prophecy is connected with sisters as well as brothers in the Scriptures; their service would be connected with a personal word but yet they have power to serve in a gifted way. We have for example Mary, the Lord's mother, speaking in a most beautiful way, a prophetic way; then there are Hannah and others, and the daughters of Philip were prophetesses. So we have to be careful in looking into a subject like this that the sisters are not shut out. God has anointed us and they are in it from the standpoint of spontaneous ministers, so it reaches every one of us.

L.E.S. (Remark as to the message given to Mary of Magdala in John 20.)

J.T. She does not announce what she carried to the brethren as merely something she had taken note of; but she had seen the Lord and He had spoken these things to her and she put it in the most informal and simple way, not in the words He used but to convey His mind.

J.W.D. So I am to fill out my part in the grace of the anointing in whatever service I am called upon to do.

J.T. I think we shall see that more fully as we come to Exodus 40 where we get the subdivisions all working together in the power of the anointing. Now the second scripture helps as to the positive position. It was a very formal occasion, one of the most remarkable we can get. God had wrought in the congregation and they had sent for Peter; the Holy Spirit had had to do with it because He said to Peter, "I have sent them". Now the Spirit of God is telling us what Peter said to these people. It is a scene where there is no murderous scheme in the congregation as there was in Nazareth; those in that

synagogue may not have been conscious of it, but the truth brought it out. There is nothing underlying here; they were listening intently to the word while it was being delivered, therefore Peter would have much liberty in the place. So it says, "Peter opening his mouth said ...". Why does the Spirit of God say he opened his mouth? Is there something in the way he did it? He says, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation he that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him". This is something he probably never said before. You could never get another congregation like this in Scripture, with the spirit that was there, "The word which he sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ, (he is Lord of all things, ) ye know"; he was dealing with what was universal -- Lord of all things; "the testimony which has spread through the whole of Judaea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism which John preached". He was giving them credit for knowing something, so we appeal to what persons do know. And then he says, "Jesus who was of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power; who went through all quarters doing good". He was not raising storms and stirring up troubles but He went about through all quarters doing good; that is universal.

Remark as to Peter opening his mouth.

J.T. And the Lord's mouth was opened too; gracious words came out of His mouth. It is wonderful how that organ has so much place in Scripture.

L.E.S. (Remark as to Moses' mouth in Exodus 4.)

J.T. That is an excellent allusion. It should be connected with the Lord's own deep feelings in Mark 7 where he found a man that was deaf and could not speak right. Aaron could speak well and God had dealings with Moses as to that matter because of the state of his mouth, the state of the organ. It is an

important consideration because a converted person who is taken up today is one whose mouth has been full of wickedness, the poison of asps under his lips. We need to know how to speak properly.

L.E.S. (Remark as to what a change God made in Peter's mouth.)

J.T. I am sure He did. Think of Peter, how quickly he returned to his own natural way and cursed and swore! He had been with the Lord but he did not yet have the Holy Spirit, but now he has been anointed.

Ques. What do you think of the attitude of Peter in approaching this company? It is a company that God could look upon as qualified, that He could anoint collectively.

J.T. Peter is reserved in his view of this great matter, the entering in of the gentiles, but God is saying, I have something to say about it. Then Peter would be satisfied. Why should he say anything? God is doing it! Acts 10 has to do with the sovereignty of God; God is speaking of the creatures in the sheet according to what they are going to be, not what they are. We could say, What I used to be is one thing, but what I am now is another. Paul could say, "But by God's grace I am what I am", 1 Corinthians 15:10. You would be afraid to go near the creatures in the sheet, but it is what they are going to be.

J.B. (Question as to foreknowledge.)

J.T. With each one He has foreknown, I am sure He has foreknown him not as wicked, but as to what he is going to be. He selects according to what is going to be because He is going to make them according to His counsels.

A.N.W. God is able to see underneath the surface.

J.T. Peter does that same thing in effect in Acts 3. The lame man at the gate of the temple called Beautiful wanted to be healed, and Peter discerned

it. Perhaps we have not the discernment to know who wants to be healed. It is a matter of getting God's mind. What does He foreknow? He sees someone walking daily, and the gospel has in mind that in due course that person will be a believer because he is foreknown. I think it is well to take in the idea of what is foreknown; it is what pleases God and what is made real through the gospel: "Because whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated", that is sovereign. Those He has predestinated will be called, and whom God has called He justifies, and whom He justifies He glorifies.

Rem. So Peter said, "I perceive that God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation he that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him".

J.T. Quite; He is no respecter of persons; if any one love God the same is known of Him. He salutes you if you love Him; you are an attractive person if you love Him. God knows everybody, but we must read it contextually that He knows you because you love Him. The fact of God foreknowing you is sovereign, it is in view of what He can see in the distance, what you finally appear to be. He is going to predestinate you, call you, justify you, and glorify you.

Rem. God does not think in terms of time.

J.T. He can look on in time as in eternity; He looks down and sees time and sees us acceptable to Him in time, and then all these other things are stated of us.

L.E.S. "If there be a revelation ... let the first be silent". I was thinking of Peter being silent and making way for the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Quite so, he was thoroughly with God in what he was doing: "While Peter was yet speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were hearing the word". And then he says, "Can

any one forbid water that these should not be baptised, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did?" This is a good lesson for us in endeavouring to preach the gospel. It is not the length of the address that counts but meeting the current condition. The whole congregation was clearly saved. It was a very short address but a perfect address for the moment, and the Lord says as it were, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your ears".

A.N.W. (Remark as to Peter saying just enough.)

J.T. Yes, enough to make them fit for the Holy Spirit. The point is that they are to be brought in. God has prior right in all His services and Peter said enough. Paul said to the Ephesians, "In whom ye also have trusted, having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise", Ephesians 1:13. Luke, who recounts this for us, was a vessel the Lord brought in in sovereignty and grace. What he was writing he had heard from others and he did his work well.

We shall have to leave what was in mind about Exodus, in regard to the anointing in the types. It is the Spirit of God giving an account of the anointing so that we might have in our souls a clear idea of it; God uses it in this setting directly for Himself. He is inscrutable, so we have everything to learn about the three divine Persons, and the types would help us.

Remark as to the anointing making persons suitable to convey God's mind.

J.T. Yes, that is the idea of it, that one is made fit to speak. That means that he is not simply a man going to the seminary to learn to be a preacher; when God takes up a man he must submit. Paul, in Acts 9, says, "Lord", to the blessed Person he had never seen! He says, "What shall I do, Lord?" Acts 22:10.

The natural will is not to come in or it will spoil all.

Remark as to the book of Job.

J.T. God says to Elihu, You must speak. Elihu says, I am ready to burst! Think of Elihu sitting down with those four men! It does not say he said a word while they were talking, but he was being filled up ready to speak out when God prompted him. And when he does begin every word is pure gold.

THE ANOINTING (2)

Psalm 105:12 - 15; Genesis 28:10 - 22; Genesis 35:9 - 18

J.T. The passage read this morning in Exodus 30 is to be borne in mind, in which it is said that Moses was to take the best spices: "And Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, And thou, take best spices -- of liquid myrrh five hundred shekels, and of sweet cinnamon the half -- two hundred and fifty, and of sweet myrtle two hundred and fifty, and of cassia five hundred, after the shekel of the sanctuary, and of olive oil a hin; and make of it an oil of holy ointment, a perfume of perfumery after the work of the perfumer, it shall be the holy anointing oil". It is to be remarked that as the manna alludes to Christ personally, so the anointing oil alludes to the Spirit. We have an account of both; the manna is in chapter 16, the word meaning, 'What is it?' It is a question that we should have answered in our souls, what the manna means. So now we have the anointing oil. The question mark is not so pronounced here, but we have the component parts of the anointing oil which are to be considered in a typical sense. We should be reverential as alluding to the anointing, because the Spirit as a divine Person is operating in such a remarkable and holy way; and first we see Him in connection with Christ as we had this morning. We shall see the matter now in relation to individual believers, how it worked out in Jacob and his becoming sensible of the house of God. Then we shall see it in the views of the tabernacle and the priesthood and the prophets. It is of the utmost importance that we should speak reverentially, for it involves nothing less than a divine Person, God as seen in this way, One who was used to garnish the heaven. See the beautification there! And then in Genesis He hovered over the face of the waters. Therefore the

Spirit should always be apprehended in our souls as equal with the Father and the Son. The name to which we baptise is the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; the passage in Matthew 28 implies that the name includes each Person. We have the Spirit in our souls thus, and regard Him in a worshipful way. Operating in us, He is never less than God, but in relation to the incarnation He has taken a lowly place with Christ, and even more so because He keeps Himself out of view. Still He is the Same, and entitled to that term. In coming so low He does it Himself; it is a question of lowliness, how low He will come. He humbled Himself and He is here in that way and operates as the anointing; that is why we suggested the scripture spoken of this morning and now again brought forward because it informs us typically of what comes out from the Father. What He hears He speaks -- a most remarkable thing! And He does speak here below. It is all to impress us with the importance of reverential feelings. A severe penalty is attached to any imitation of the anointing oil, for it is not to be imitated: "Whoever compoundeth any like it, or whoever putteth any of it upon any strange thing, shall be cut off from his peoples". Any of these 'holy orders' and the like, making a natural effort to put on the Spirit, are highly displeasing to God. If there is to be anything in the way of the anointing it is to be this holy compound.

L.E.S. Do you think Paul in the epistle to the Corinthians has a very similar thought where he says, "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" 1 Corinthians 3:16?

J.T. That is very appropriate -- the three Persons are linked together in that chapter as in Matthew 28. Our very baptism introduces us into that.

A.N.W. How do we enter into the love of the Spirit?

J.T. I would say it comes out from Him as the love of God and the love of Christ. I do not know how we could doubt it. We have too the communications of the Spirit that have just been noted, and we have of course in the type in Numbers 21 the well springing up, alluding to the Holy Spirit; and the children of Israel sang unto it.

J.W.D. Do you think we are to be conscious of the Holy Spirit's personality, not only His control but the infinitude of that divine Person personally among us?

J.T. That is what I wanted to bring out -- the need to make allowance for His own way instead of His being in the background. Christ having come in in humility supports that, and all that is in keeping with it is to be worked out in us, the Spirit becoming in us the Spirit of Christ.

J.W.D. In the end of Revelation it is the Spirit and the bride. Is it right to say that that is the last phase of the Spirit's work personally?

J.T. We had that at recent meetings and it is linked on with what we are saying now; the Spirit speaks to us and witnesses with our spirit that we are the children of God. The movement of the Spirit is distinct from our spirits. That passage in Numbers 21 is especially important because the word is, "Sing unto it". The word 'sing' alludes to alternate singing, persons are answering, but answering in that inquiry-like function. It is like Miriam's response when the women went out after her in Exodus 15. She answered them: "Sing to Jehovah, for he is highly exalted". It was to the Lord there and not to the Spirit, but it is the same idea, the masculine side and then the feminine, alluding to subjective feeling. And again we have, "Saul hath smitten his thousands, and David his ten thousands", 1 Samuel 18:7; the women answered one another there. Throughout the New Testament too we have instances in the scope

of song, but the Spirit Himself keeps in the main out of view, and the aim is to work out holiness with us.

G.A.T. Does not Scripture say He will not speak of Himself?

J.T. "From himself" is the word properly there. He does not speak from Himself but He speaks as God; for instance, "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul", Acts 13:2, that is God speaking. Now we might consider in detail these ingredients, the first myrrh, then cinnamon the half (the word 'half' is introduced), then sweet myrtle and cassia, and finally the olive oil, bringing in the thought of oil -- "make of it an oil of holy ointment". The first word would be the key word, 'myrrh', and all the rest come in their places making a single compound. In order to get the gain of the Spirit in Exodus the rock had to be smitten, linking with the suffering suggested in myrrh.

Rem. Regarding the anointing oil, would you touch on the numbers two hundred and fifty and five hundred? How would they enter into the service of God?

J.T. It is not easy to say much beyond the fact that the compound would yield results. The measurements suggest things to the mind in their proportions, and are to be worked out in the Spirit, so that we have the Spirit of Christ. All that is anointed must be in relation to that.

N.B. Do you see any connection between these ingredients and the king's garments in Psalm 45, "Myrrh and aloes, cassia, are all thy garments"?

J.T. These are things to be worked out, and I think they are worked out in Christ first. The leading thought in all God's operations was the incarnation. We have the types and certain thoughts in the Old Testament but the real truth was in relation to the incarnation, so that we have it permanently established in the universe.

Rem. God presents the best to us in Christ.

J.T. Yes, the very best, Christ is the very best. These are just types and they awaited the incarnation to come fully into man's view. God dwells in thick darkness but it awaited the incarnation to permanently effect in man down here what God looked for.

Ques. So they are anointed to God. Is that the thought?

J.T. Each ingredient has to be worked out, and the Scriptures afford means of investigation; the Spirit searcheth all things, but He does it for us, and the field of investigation is Himself. We get something all the time we are investigating.

L.E.S. So that Paul presented himself to the Corinthians as "always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body; for we who live are always delivered unto death on account of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh", 2 Corinthians 4:10, 11. Would that correspond?

J.T. That is seen in a living way in the believer, which means permanent establishment. The thing is permanently established, as he says to the Corinthians earlier, "He that establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, is God, who also has sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit". We see in our minds that everything is objectively established in Christ as the Yea and Amen, but the subjective thought is in us.

J.W.D. Are you thinking of the myrrh as the subjective thought in us?

J.T. I am thinking of the initiation or key word, mentioned first. The last word is 'cassia', the same measure as the myrrh, but inasmuch as it is the last mentioned and not the first, I think the first mentioned is the key idea. The apostle speaks of the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow.

Rem. It says the measurements are "after the shekel of the sanctuary".

J.T. They are weighed out according to the measure of the sanctuary, because we are dealing with the anointing from God's side. He is prescribing what should be used. God brings it into Exodus because Exodus sets out divine requirements in matters. In Genesis persons were not given regulations, hence the oil that Jacob used could not be "holy ointment" for it was his own composition. Oil was used too for anointing Saul and David, but God says, I must have this. He is still maintaining His own standard, and what should mark us is this oil, that is, the sufferings of Christ, the Spirit of Christ, the "supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ" as it says.

Rem. How does the ointment used by the woman in the gospels fit in with this?

J.T. That is another thing, it leads us on to further thoughts now, to what is called "the incense", that is the second prescription, from verse 34 to the end of the chapter. It is what is before God in fragrance, whereas the other is what He would have from His priests.

A.N.W. The ointment of the woman in Luke 7 was myrrh. That was designed, was it not?

J.T. Quite so, it would be part of this, and certainly she had what would be accepted. What Mary had was pure nard and it is said to be very valuable. There are things presented thus from our side, but God has a standard seen antitypically in the Spirit coming on Christ incarnate and resting on Him, bringing out the personality of Christ; and this same oil is to anoint the tabernacle. Our business is to keep to that standard and not to suggest any less than that standard in representing God here.

Rem. "Upon man's flesh shall it not be poured".

J.T. That is it here; we are not to imitate it or put it on our persons.

J.W.D. Do we not come to these measurements that you suggest by taking on the matter soberly?

J.T. Hebrews speaks of persons who "insulted the Spirit of grace", which is apostasy; so we must be on our guard as to the attitude of our souls on these occasions.

Ques. What do you say in regard to the word, 'unction' in 1 John?

J.T. It is the same thought. How does it read?

Rem. "And ye have the unction from the holy one, and ye know all things", 1 John 2:20.

J.T. Unction is the thought, but it is something derived from another. It says later on that "the unction which ye have received ... teaches you as to all things". We surely do not trust to the clerical systems or colleges that bring in some other way of setting up religious systems. The extreme thought of this is seen when anyone says anything against the Holy Spirit; so the word is, "Touch not mine anointed".

Rem. To whom does this reference in the psalm apply?

J.T. There is no reference, no scriptural record, of the actual anointing, but the allusion would be to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The word is "mine anointed ones", so evidently God held them in that way as proof against any other demands. And so with both Abraham and Isaac, they stood aloof from any alliances. Abimelech came to Abraham; he was a military man and sought to make a great show before Abraham who was a man of God; he was conscious of his power because he had established royalty attached to him, and he brought his captain with him to make a military show, but Abraham was not drawn into it, nor was Isaac. When Abimelech came to Isaac he brought his friend as well as the captain but Isaac overcame that too. To such God says, "Touch not mine anointed", whether you are

friendly or hostile, "and do my prophets no harm". That shows how the idea applied before Exodus; God established the idea of His own in Genesis, that they were His anointed.

Ques. Would all you are saying now apply to the testimony at the present time in regard to the military display and so on?

J.T. That is what the young brothers should lay hold of, what God is doing and saying. He would say, You are the ones I am watching. It is a question of your spiritual manner; is it the real anointing you are displaying before these men? You are by yourself but God says, You are one of My anointed ones. God is very fair to Abimelech, saying, I know you do not intend to do wrong and I kept you from doing wrong. God knows what is in the minds of the authorities; if a man in authority has respect for God, God has great respect for him. This is a matter that needs great attention, and all of us need to keep in mind that the anointing had to do with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jacob was the last one and when he has recourse to the anointing he brings in the drink offering, an intoxicating thing; he would stimulate and please God and then he poured oil on that and called the place Beth-el. The very fact that I am to represent God here means that there is going to be a house. In Genesis it is abstract, but God is taking account of those who please Him. He has come down now, it is true, but Jacob got the sense that God was pleased to be with him.

J.B. Would Hannah be in line with what we are having here when she says, "He will ... exalt the horn of his anointed", 1 Samuel 2:10?

J.T. Just so, she had the idea; that word 'the horn', belongs to Samuel. That is part of the prayer of Hannah, but there is not a word of prayer in it. The priest is to walk before the anointed, it is royalty that she has in mind.

Rem. She brings a priestly offering to the house of God.

J.T. Yes, it is in keeping with her loaning her son to the house of God. She belonged to the house of God herself; she was a real priest, and in her words you do not get prayer, it is praise. One would like to help the brethren now to see how we come into this, and so we see in Genesis 28 that Jacob has a sense that this is none other than the house of God. He does not think much of it, he says it is a dreadful place. How much does each one here think of it?

G.A.T. Jacob says another strange thing, that God was there but he did not know it. Would that mean that I might be with the brethren and God be there and I not be in the good of it?

J.T. Just so, but you remember God was on the ladder above. In the first passage God brought him a ladder from above and He was on the other end; the angels were the link between Jacob and God. When he comes back to the same spot many years later it is a real house of God, because the presence of God makes it His house.

G.A.T. Has the pouring on of the oil anything to do with taking away the hardness from the stone?

J.T. I think it rather suggests the discipline that Jacob went through. You remember that he was fleeing from his brother who was intending to murder him, and he had a long way to go. The sun was set and this is all he had for a pillow. There was no one to exercise hospitality, but God did: He exercised hospitality in a position of danger. That was all foundation-making time.

Rem. This place Haran in Scripture suggests a halfway stopping place, and Jacob's ideas are hazy here. Halfway stopping places are always rather hazy.

J.T. Just so, and behind that he has left a dark situation. Think of the terribleness of feeling you have a brother that hates you! Think of having

such a one in the assembly! It says, "If any one love not the Lord Jesus Christ let him be Anathema Maranatha", 1 Corinthians 16:22. God says, I hate Esau; I love that man Jacob but I hate Esau. Jacob was fleeing from his presence. He did not start from Esau's place but from Beer-sheba, but there was the dark thought of the hating brother behind him. We can well understand the exercise he was going through, the sun was going down and there was only a stone for a pillow; but then heaven interfered and he began getting some light. God is going to exhibit the wonderful thought of entertaining, for it is His house. Where would Jacob get the thought of anointing? It was in the family, I would say to any young man or woman here, the idea of anointing is in your family and you should look out for it. Well, as I was saying, the thought of the anointing was in Jacob's house; his father had contributed it to him, and he was coming into it now. There is mention in Psalm 105 of "his covenant -- the word which he commanded to a thousand generations -- which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; and he confirmed it unto Jacob for a statute, unto Israel for an everlasting covenant". That is an immense thing for young people who have believers for parents. It is not simply that I am connected with what my father has been; God says to Jacob, "Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance". God will say to every believer, if he wants to come into the things that are there, I am dealing with you directly, and what others have you may have. It says Abraham dwelt in tents with Isaac and Jacob, but it was God's estate and Jacob was heir to it. We are heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ. We are talking about persons like Abraham and Isaac, and now Jacob is coming into these things. Abraham is not here nor is Isaac, but Jacob is here and God says, I want you. You do not get

mention of God's house in Abraham's or Isaac's history but you get it in Jacob's.

L.E.S. Isaiah 59:21 is a very interesting scripture, "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, saith Jehovah: My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith Jehovah, from henceforth and for ever".

J.T. Quite so, I think this is very important from a gospel point of view, that young persons in a christian household may see things and perhaps not be despising them, but still they may not be using them. How did my father get converted, my mother and brothers? But Jacob is sent away by himself. He has not renounced his relations with his father and mother, but he is by himself in this position with a stone as a pillow, and God has to say to him directly. God would say, Your parents are not here, this is between Me and you and I am going to give you what they have but not from them; it is not an inheritance from them but an inheritance from God.

G.A.T. Would you say He calls Samuel directly as a child?

J.T. It is Jehovah and Samuel. This is a principle to make clear to all young people. You are getting what your father has got but you are not in the enjoyment of it until you get it from God, not from them.

Rem. So He would say to the young people as He says here, "I am Jehovah, the God of Abraham, thy father". He would bring that same thought today to the young in our households.

J.T. God is discriminative all the way through and brings each one before Him. He says, Why don't you get this? From heaven above, the ladder reaches down to Jacob; God is not standing by Jacob here, but He is in chapter 35.

G.A.T. Would God hold the young people accountable if they do not pay attention to what is said?

J.T. God takes account of every word that comes from them and He takes account of the path that their parents are enjoying.

M.O. Does chapter 35 suggest the gain that is derived from being brought to an understanding of the anointing as having dealings with God?

J.T. We have to examine the history of Jacob from this point onward to see what comes in before chapter 35; he was conscious in that chapter of being more to God than he had been before. God did not come down to him here in chapter 28, but retained His place at the top of the ladder. We have to examine the history to see what intervenes before chapter 35. God had said to him to return to the land of his fathers, not simply to the house, though that is a beautiful idea, but to the land.

U.O.G. Would you say that this bargain he made with God would mean he was now confessing that the blessing must come from God Himself?

J.T. One thing hangs on another. He says, "If God will be with me, and keep me on this road that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and a garment to put on, and I come again to my father's house in peace -- then shall Jehovah be my God"; that is the bargain. It is a hypothetical thought when he says, "This is none other but the house of God" in verse 17, for he also calls it a dreadful place; he is not at home there. But he rose early in the morning and took the stone and set it up for a pillar and poured oil on the top of it. When he said it was a dreadful place he had been in a different state. Where would he have got the oil? Why would he bring it with him? In a christian household he had something that would enable him to answer to the light that he had gotten in his father's house. He had

changed his mind clearly about the place and called the name of it Beth-el; he was like Adam, he had to call the place by a name. And then it says, "Jacob vowed a vow". It is a great thing when a young person vows a vow. Jacob feels he can make a vow to his advantage, and he says, "This stone, which I have set up for a pillar, shall be God's house". It shows how the believer comes into the anointing. The anointing was there already, but now Jacob gets the idea and he is to come into it; the idea is really becoming a living stone.

G.A.T. And this being the case he is now going to have power.

J.T. That is what we get in chapter 35. The intervening history covers about thirty years. There was very little spirituality in his wives; Rachel had some but there was very little there. God can work out His thoughts in the most difficult circumstances. He says, They are not overwhelming, and I am working out something in you. This matter of wages is an important thing among the brethren. Jacob had to deal with a hard sort of man in his father-in-law; it is not always well to seek employment from our relatives and look for help from them. It came into his mind when Joseph was born that he must go back to his family, but his father-in-law knew he was a producer; Laban knew that God was blessing him through Jacob. Jacob says, My wages have been changed ten times, showing that they had a great place in his mind and he remembered it. That is a very important thing just now because some people are working on the Lord's day for extra wages. Wages are very detrimental to us if we make them a major point, so Jacob was detained a considerable time at Padan because of wages when he should have gone back to Isaac.

Rem. What should be done in a case like this? Should we be prepared to suffer?

J.T. The matter of wages is detrimental if it goes beyond what is normal, beyond what God gives us. Increased wages will not do for God or for us.

Rem. How about a case where wages are in consideration and a brother is working on the Lord's day?

J.T. That is a matter that has to be considered; the point is whether wages are involved. The Lord says, There is one day to which I have two titles; one, that it is the Lord's day, and the other that it is the first day of the week, I am not asking for Monday or Tuesday but for the first day of the week, or the Lord's day; I am taking that one day out of seven for Myself.

G.A.T. It is not exactly what I lose that matters so much, but what the Lord loses from me.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. Would the violation of other divine principles come in here?

J.T. The Lord's day involves rights, and one great saint says, "I was in the Spirit" on that day. If I am ignoring principles, I must consider how long this condition will rule me. We are able to count from the money point of view, but are we able to count from the shekels of the sanctuary?

Ques. Do labour unions enter into this inquiry?

J.T. That is another matter, but connected with it in one sense. There is positive lawlessness connected with the trade union.

Rem. The drink offering would be in keeping with the sacrifice. If wages are not in my mind God would accept the drink offering from me.

J.T. That is the thing, the drink offering is a most interesting matter. What his reasons were for employing it we are not told, but it is intoxicating, it stimulates God. The Lord Jesus was not without that in the way He pleased God; speaking reverently. God could do nothing without Jesus. He lost Him

for three days and three nights but He was there before anybody else to raise Him. What infinitude in that anointing! And we are in God's counsels; why should we deprive Him of ourselves? God wanted to be near to Jacob; He came down to his side in chapter 35 just to talk to him, and it says, "God went up from him in the place where he had talked with him". The drink offering would be the first suggestion of how he was pleasing to God; God would say, You are pleasing to Me and I can use you.

Rem. God had said to him, "I am the Almighty God".

J.T. It is an outstanding thought, the mighty God of Jacob. Jacob is conscious now that he is seeing God and that it is the house of God; he is coming to the house on these lines, a house pleasing to God. Although there may not be many in fellowship in a locality the thought is that God can be there. He would say, I will make My abode with you, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We must make a sacrifice in view of this. And then the next thing is that God is to have a place in the hearts of the brethren locally; the saints are a witness to God there.

J.W.D. I think that is a very stimulating thought. We think we are poor and weak and feeble, but we are acceptable to God.

J.T. This would encourage us especially where meetings are small numerically.

THE ANOINTING (3)

Exodus 40:1 - 11; 1 Corinthians 12:1 - 13

J.T. The link between these two scriptures will be apparent to most of us; at least it will be as we proceed in our inquiry. The passage in Corinthians is really the antitype of Exodus 40. Chapter 12, verse 12, reads, "For even as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ". The allusion there is to Christ as the anointed One; what is mainly in view is Christ in Person. It is not Christ exalted but more the vessel down here, the saints viewed as united to Him. The term 'the Christ' means the anointed one or vessel, and Exodus will help us to see the detail which is in God's mind for us in this way. Exodus 39 shows that all the parts of the tabernacle passed through Moses' hands. It says, "According to all that Jehovah had commanded Moses, so had the children of Israel done all the labour. And Moses saw all the work, and behold, they had done it as Jehovah had commanded -- so had they done it; and Moses blessed them". It is a corresponding allusion there to Christ as the Mediator, so that as believers we all come under His examination, and we are only passed, as it were, by Him if we conform to the requirements that the book presents to us. It is said that "Moses saw all the work, and behold, they had done it as Jehovah had commanded". Then it is said that Moses blessed them. It is a very auspicious moment, the tabernacle is passed now in all its parts but it is not all set up yet. In chapter 40 it is set up and then anointed. It is thought that what we had yesterday afternoon fits in, for Jacob reached the collective idea; however much or little he understood it, he named the place Beth-el. It was a place where God had come down

to speak to him, which conveys the idea of the house of God. Beth-el means the house of God, and God being there with Jacob indicates what is meant. It is a place of divine Presence and dwelling and is informal, as we might say. In Genesis God was allowing His work to manifest itself in individuals, particularly in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The idea of the anointing was in the family according to Psalm 105, and Jacob coming in, the third from Abraham, entered into the matter of the anointing, first using oil by itself according to chapter 28, and then using the drink offering in chapter 35, oil meaning that God is there and pleased to be there. He had pleasure in Jacob so that the idea of the house is there.

J.W.D. Do you think we need to reach Jacob experimentally so that the drink offering and the oil will be acceptable to God?

J.T. That is the principle running through Genesis. The work of God manifests itself in certain ones and they do things of themselves without prescriptions.

J.W.D. I was thinking of the drink offering. God is everything to us and we ourselves arrive at the truth of God being supreme.

J.T. Quite so. Jacob had the experience in a small way, or indeed fully, because God Himself was there; but the fulness of it is here in chapter 40 in a special way, because God says in Exodus that if He is to have a dwelling it must be according to His own prescription. There was none of that in Jacob's case, it was all from Jacob's side, but God accepted what Jacob did and it felicitously pertained to the house of God. That is to say, Jacob progressed in his apprehension of things to the idea of the house. In the second visit he called it El-Beth-el. The name of the city before was Luz but it is now called Beth-el; however, it is from Jacob's own experience; God is not prescribing things for him, it is what he

himself does. In many instances in Genesis the work of God is manifest in persons and God accepts it, but when we come to Exodus we have the divine standard and pattern. Everything is according to pattern and standard, and the pattern is shown from above; it is a heavenly matter; so that chapter 40 here is the full result in Exodus. God comes in, we are told in the end of the chapter, and glory fills the house. It is the carrying through of what Jacob reached and God is showing that Jacob was in His line of things. How little he understood when he reached Beth-el and named it! In Exodus the thought is taken up and the divine standard asserted above, not on the level of the earth. Jacob's naming it is on the earth but it is not on that level now, it is on the divine level, so that Moses was called up onto the mountain and was there for forty days and forty nights and received the pattern there. The house of God is really a heavenly thing, but here provisionally.

J.B. Is that why in Matthew's gospel the mountains are spoken of?

J.T. Matthew is really set in relation to mountains; beginning with chapter 5 there are seven of them. As the mountains were round about Jerusalem so are they in Matthew's gospel round about the assembly; it is a heavenly thing come down.

L.E.S. Would you say we have all the basic features of the work of God in Genesis, while in Exodus we have how it should function?

J.T. I think that is right. In the beginning of Genesis we have the creation, as it is called. That is, what had been there before, a chaotic condition, is brought into form, but then that is not final. Chapter 1 is basic and chapter 2 is to bring the fulness of it out, so that the man and the woman are enjoined to multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. Genesis is not complete, there is always a sequence. Chapter 2 is a sequence of chapter 1 and God takes a compound

name. The added name indicates that God has other thoughts that were not indicated in the first chapter and these thoughts centre in the idea of Jehovah compounded with Elohim; that is to say, God, the Creator, is taking up a covenant relation with men. Exodus is the book of covenant, it is God taking up a fixed relation with men, or with Israel. The work goes on, the effulgence or working out of things, right through the Scriptures until the Lord Jesus appears, and it is said, "For in him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell", Colossians 1:19. The greatness and fulness of the Godhead dwelt in Jesus, that is the culmination; and now in the assembly we have His fulness, for the assembly is the fulness of Christ.

Ques. When the Exodus system is not functioning in Corinthians, does the apostle in his ministry seek to awaken in them a sense of the Jacob experience or Genesis side of things, to awaken in their souls a sense of where God had spoken to them?

J.T. Quite so, and it is a commandment. The test of everyone's status in the house of God or the assembly is whether he is a prophet or can discern what apostolic ministry is. "Let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment", 1 Corinthians 14:37. Genesis is not the place of commandment; commandment is peculiarly in Exodus.

J.W.D. Would you say that the assembly as Christ's fulness is a development?

J.T. Yes. He is the One in whom the divine fulness is. Colossians 1:19 says in the original, "In him all the fulness ... was pleased to dwell", without saying what the fulness is; "of the Godhead" is interpolated in chapter 1.

J.W.D. The fulness involves greater expansion; it is a development, is it not?

J.T. It is what God is morally coming out in Christ. Of course Deity was there in Christ and He is One of the divine Persons, but the fulness is the fulness of the whole without saying what it is. In chapter 2 it says that all the fulness "of the Godhead" was bodily in Him so that it has been brought down to us in Christ, but the first chapter is more general and less specific.

A.N.W. The actual statement as to the assembly is, "The fulness of him who fills all in all", Ephesians 1:23.

J.T. That is Ephesians, quite so; Colossians is the personal touch.

A.B. Chapter 2 says, "Ye are complete in him", and does the footnote help? It says, "Or 'filled full', referring to all fulness being in Him. The fulness or completeness of the Godhead is in Christ".

J.T. That helps. So that the first chapter of Colossians is mainly a question of the deity of Christ, the truth of His Person, that He is the Creator of everything and "in him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell"; whereas in Ephesians it is that God "gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all". So that the fulness dwelling in Christ, of which Colossians speaks, finds its own fulness -- another thought. It is an extended thought in the assembly, but the assembly is His fulness.

Ques. When you say the fulness of God morally, are you using the word morally as distinct from what God is essentially?

J.T. Yes. What God is morally is what He is in relation to things, but here the word 'God' is not used; it is the fulness personified as it were. What Jesus was as a Man down here was great enough for the fulness to dwell in.

Rem. It is not only the thought of Christ in His Person, His essential Being, though He is God in that too.

J.T. Oh yes, the three divine Persons are equal, but Scripture refers to the economy into which They have come, that is, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father remains in the Deity but in relation to the economy and in relation to creation; and it is in that economy that Christ has the fulness dwelling in Him; in the second chapter it says "all the fulness ... bodily".

Ques. Where would you go for a scripture as to Christ's divinity, His essential Being in its personal aspect?

J.T. I would say John 1 is the leading scripture for that, giving account of the Word, "In the beginning was the Word" (that is in time and creation too). In the beginning was the Person and there was more there than was understood, but John's gospel was written so that it might be understood. He did not begin to be there. He was there; in the beginning He was there. It is implied there that He is Head essentially and it goes on to say, "And the Word was with God, and the Word was God". That brings in the name of God, and that in itself is relative, it designates God as set out in the Father. Paul says, "There is one God, the Father". The Deity is represented by the Father, but John says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God", showing that He had a distinctiveness from the other divine Persons. Then it goes on to say, "The Word was with God, and the Word was God". We are moving upward to bring out the essential deity of Christ, that He had a personal existence as distinct from the other two Persons, and that He was with God, known in that way; and then finally that He "was God". Then we might say, What about the other two Persons? There are not two Gods, only one God, but He was operating as God in one Person. The Others, of course, would be there too, but it was by Him, as it goes on to say,

"Without him not one thing received being which has received being". It was Christ who made everything.

Ques. Colossians does not go quite that far, does it?

J.T. No. Colossians speaks of Christ as Man; what He is morally is in relation to what He is in manhood, all the fulness is there. In Ephesians it says, "That ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God", suggesting what came out in Christ in a moral sense; so that every attribute of God is there, dealing in creation especially with men.

G.A.T. What you say of John 1 does not bring before us the designation Son.

J.T. The title Son is not mentioned until you come to verse 14, "And the Word became flesh". It does not say God became flesh, although that might be true because God was manifest in flesh, but "the Word became flesh". He took another condition and in that condition He tabernacled among men, "and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father". What beautiful relations were seen there between the Father and Son! Then we go on to verse 18 and it says, "No one has seen God at any time". When we speak of God in that sense it includes the three Persons: "No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". This is the great thought of the declaration of the Deity, that is, not in essential being but what They are morally here.

Ques. Would God being all in all fit into the moral thought rather than into the thought of His essential being?

J.T. No one has seen or can see Him in His essential being. God is all in all and God is in us by the Spirit. He is all to us subjectively, but He is in

us in relation to the Spirit. It does not say 'all and all', which would be an external idea, but "all in all", so that the hidden fixity is seen in that.

M.O. Matthew 11:27 says, "No one knows the Son but the Father". Is that referring to His essential being?

J.T. That is what is stated there; "nor does any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal him". The Son is never said to be revealed and that ought to subdue us as to these matters. We are dealing with inscrutability when we speak of divine Persons in that sense.

Rem. Those who have stumbled in relation to sonship have not looked carefully at John 1. The Spirit has clarified it for us and the ministry has glorified the thought for us. We must look carefully so that we do not stumble over it and lose the deity of Christ.

J.T. Really the deity of Christ is stressed in it, the inscrutability of His Person. He has come out in manhood yet He belongs to the Deity and never leaves It in that sense.

A.N.W. Would you care to distinguish between what the word 'Godhead' conveys to you and the word 'God'?

J.T. Godhead would seem to stress the thought of God, involving in the word 'head' that It has come out. It is a term relating to the economy into which He has come, the fulness of Deity being in Christ bodily. I think it would mean that it is absolute, it is God absolutely. That is, He is acting by Himself in relation to creation, but there is something in the word 'absolute' that goes beyond that, which we cannot take in at all. The idea that no one has seen Him or can see Him refers to the three Persons in relation to Themselves. Before creation

that is what They were and we cannot say what names They bore toward One Another then because the names we have are the names of revelation.

A.N.W. Would you object to the word 'system' applied to the Deity?

J.T. I should not like to use that word, inferring that I could put a name on what is inscrutable.

A.N.W. Is the idea of the Spirit in the Godhead?

J.T. As to the absolute Godhead, I do not like to say anything about it. You might say there were the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as now, but that would make two of Them inferior, which would be infringing on the Scripture. We should be careful.

A.B. In 1 Corinthians 8 it is, "To us there is one God", but that is comparing God to other gods. In Timothy it says, "God is one", which is not comparative. Is there something in that?

J.T. Yes, "God is one, and the mediator of God and men one"; that is, in the mediatorial system God being One would mean that three Persons are in Him and united, inscrutably related. The three Persons are in Him and They all have part in the Godhead but we cannot talk about how that works out. What we can take in is the present economy in which we are, for we are baptised to the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

J.B. How do you understand the thought, "My Father is greater than I", John 14:28?

J.T. It is in keeping with the economy. The Lord without altering as to His Person has taken a lower place in the economy to carry out the divine behest. That is inscrutable!

G.A.T. It says He "did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God", Philippians 2:6.

J.T. He did not think in that direction because He was equal with God.

L.E.S. That matter of the name is one great difference between judaism and christianity. In regard

of judaism it is, "Hear, Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah", but Ephesians 4 says, "One Spirit ... one Lord ... one God and Father".

J.T. That is the economy, quite so.

C.T. What about the passage in John 17 which says, "And now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was"?

J.T. That is Deity; it is extreme. He had that glory along with the Father.

A.M. What is the thought in Exodus where the seventy elders ate and drank before Him?

J.T. Now you are bringing out something that will divert us, but it is well to bring it up. God can show Himself as He pleases; we have to come to it that God can do everything, and so He can come out without our being told in what way. He is inscrutable, no one has seen Him or can see Him; we have to accept that fact, and yet they saw the God of Israel and ate and drank. Cannot God show Himself in His attributes in some way? How could He speak to Satan?

A.N.W. You made a remark yesterday that you bow to it even though you do not understand it and your soul is enlightened.

J.T. Quite so, and you get portions. You find how little you are and how great God is, and that steadies you. So we have to look at the context of such statements. How can God show Himself? In Genesis 18 when three men came to Abraham in the heat of the day they accepted the invitation to eat there. How can God eat? We cannot explain that, but God can do everything. They ate, and they had a lamb tender and good. How can you explain it? We must just accept the fact that God can do everything.

L.E.S. So in Mark it says He appeared in another form.

J.T. In Genesis 18 there can be no doubt that we have a suggestion of the Trinity, but it is set out in three men who can eat ordinary food. You may say, I do not know how that can be, but we are to accept it because God can do everything. Which One was Jehovah? How can we single Him out, and how did Abraham distinguish between the three? There must have been something shining out in Him that was not in the other two. And then Jehovah talked to him about righteous people. How simple God is! He comes down and eats food and says, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?" Abraham saw Him there as a Man, so let us accept the fact that God can do everything; the Holy Spirit is here and He will impress our souls.

Rem. What you say will relieve us of a lot of worry if we just accept the Scriptures and go on.

J.T. God will in time give you an abundance to settle your mind, for the God of the whole of the New Testament was really in view; that God came down and ate food! How did Jesus eat fish in His resurrection condition? Spiritually you understand that He could do that, so that Peter says He ate and drank with them after He arose, and all that has to be accepted.

L.E.S. The Spirit of God will operate giving spiritual impressions, and our minds need to be under control.

J.T. Quite so. When we come to Exodus it is not simply Abraham and three men, but Moses and Aaron and seventy elders of Israel, and they "went up". It does not say they went up the mountain, but it is moral going up; Moses and Joshua went up the mountain physically, the others went up as a type of what we come into in the assembly. In ascension we go up, so in the type this experience is not down below; it is what you get up above. The higher you go the more you have a sense of God's greatness, so

that they saw the God of Israel, and under His feet "as it were work of transparent sapphire". Here it was God coming in in Deity, although Abraham in Genesis 18 also saw that it was God who had appeared to him.

Ques. In Colossians we have the word 'image' used alongside of the word 'invisible': "who is image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation", Colossians 1:15. It does not refer to His essential being, does it?

J.T. That would represent Christ in incarnation as the image of the invisible God, so that Thomas said, "My Lord and my God". How could he say that? There was something that impressed him, so that he said not only, "My Lord", but "my God". It means that God was represented. We do not bring God the Father in there but He was represented, "He that has seen me has seen the Father", John 14:9. God was there representatively, He had visited His people. But that does not deny that Jesus was Himself in the Deity, and that gave Him all the distinction for those that perceived Him.

L.E.S. God being with us includes what He is in Christ.

J.T. He must be a divine Person to be Immanuel, the fulness could be in no other. And the fulness of Christ is the assembly; that is what we are dealing with now; and what distinction we need in the anointing if we are to be before Christ in His body!

-- .R. Was it revealed to Peter in Matthew 16:16, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God"?

J.T. Yes, the Father revealed that to him, but that was not His essential Deity, that was what He was there before Peter's eyes. The Lord Jesus had been asking what people had been saying about Him and then asked, What do you say? Peter said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God".

The point is what was before their eyes so he does not say, You have part in the Deity. The anointed One is what we are dealing with.

Ques. When you speak of God being in us, is that true in any way apart from the Spirit?

J.T. I do not think so. Of course there is what is physical, as Paul says, "In him we live and move and exist", Acts 17:28. God is in the grass and the earth and makes all things grow. He is in everything and He is making the world go, but He is in us by the Spirit.

Ques. Then the Ephesian phrase, "in all", means by the Spirit?

J.T. Quite so.

G.A.T. Are you connecting the tabernacle with the assembly?

J.T. That is what is in mind and we should go into these great matters. They are infinitely great and we need to be subject and bow to the Scriptures first; we should pray to the Lord to give us understanding in all things. What is in mind is what God had in the house at Beth-el. What Jacob had in Beth-el was, you might say, only himself and God; that was the house; but what companionship he would have, because Jehovah came down to where he was and talked with him! When we go back to Abraham, there were Abraham and the three men, and finally only Abraham and God, but not in the sense of Beth-el. Then when we come to Exodus and seventy go up with Moses and Aaron they see the God of Israel, but that is not the house either; it is just dignity, just exaltation; God is giving them dignity to meet the need. There were never seventy men like these before; even Abraham did not get that view, nor Jacob. It is an exalted view and it has in mind typically the present position and what we are to reach. 'And see! the Spirit's power has ope'd the heav'nly door'. That is opened to us! All

that line of thought is brought into the tabernacle; it is made a fact in the collective situation.

-- .R. Is the thought you have in mind that in chapter 40 there is a heavenly pattern of the assembly, and that now we get the details of the working out of it in the first nine verses?

J.T. My thought is to show that in the type everything passed through Moses' hands, and similarly every christian who came in from Pentecost on, has passed through Christ's hands. There is no use trying to escape; we should have in our minds that we are dealing with God in heaven and we cannot impose anything on Him. He will examine you, and His people will have a judgment of you, and admit you into the assembly. This is the pattern exactly because everything passed through Moses' hands and he blessed the people; everything was done as God commanded; we must come to that. The Lord commanded, and it is God's assembly, so that it must pass through the hands of Christ.

G.A.T. This is very searching. "Lord, knower of the hearts of all", Acts 1:24.

J.T. So that we examine persons; that is what our care meetings are for -- to examine one another. The Lord is with us in that we must pass judgment; it is according to God.

G.A.T. Romans 1:20 says, "For from the world's creation the invisible things of him are perceived, being apprehended by the mind through the things that are made, both his eternal power and divinity -- so as to render them inexcusable". Would that help?

J.T. Well, that is the initial idea. The things of creation express God in His attributes. His hidden power, but that is not Deity, it is divinity. The word 'divinity' there is more what God is as in the fulness; the Godhead is the idea that is inscrutable. The creation is more or less a witness to God in His

attributes; He made the worlds, and we apprehend by the mind His hidden power and divinity. Divinity is not as strong a word as Godhead; it suggests what He is as operating.

A.M. What is the thought of God being in us? God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness". Is that not God in us?

J.T. No, that is not God in us, that is image and likeness. You must come to the New Testament to find God in us.

-- .R. The scripture quoted refers to moral likeness, does it not?

J.T. Man is like God in a very small sense. In Colossians it is Christ who is brought forward as the "image of the invisible God". Likeness infers that one is like God and it must come before image.

The link between Genesis 35 and Exodus 40 is to be kept in mind, because it comes right down to David and he refers to Jacob too; the house of God is connected with Jacob because it begins with him. What is involved is that Jacob had the sense that he could be on good terms with God. That is what young people have to come to, that they can be in holy, happy relations with Christ; He sets us near Himself in holy, happy relations. Jacob felt that and called the place where he had this experience the house of God. God did not call it that but Jacob did; it represents what he experienced in it. We can never fully understand a thing unless we have experienced it.

G.A.T. When we are at an occasion such as this do we come to that in our souls?

J.T. That is what we are about to see. You would say of such a one. He was at the meeting today. So the man in 1 Corinthians 14 is a worldly man who has little interest in God; he goes in and hears prophecy and is converted. The whole company is affected by what he does, because he falls down and

worships God. If they dispersed and later met the man down the street, and wondered what experience he had had he would say, God was there! They did not tell him that God was with them but he experienced it. So Jacob could say, God and I were in the place, and he named it the house of God.

A.N.W. As to the saying, "God is indeed amongst you" (1 Corinthians 14:25), is He only amongst His people, "whose house are we"?

J.T. Quite so. He is not among the people generally, "God is ... amongst you". One can go out and report that God is in truth among you; he can say, I have never been in such a place before!

G.A.T. Where did the man of 1 Corinthians 14 go after that?

J.T. He would be at the meetings always.

J.W.D. Is Jacob's state only maintained as these scriptures are taken in and we are regulated by them? Exodus 40 is the continuity of the spirit of Jacob.

J.T. That is what I thought we might see and work out in connection with our other scripture, "So also is the Christ". You might say 'the anointed' instead of "the Christ" because it means that the personnel are anointed. That is what the man in Corinthians would feel; it was the most dignified assembly he had ever been in. Then "that God may be all in all" is another thought; that is the true result of prophecy, and we shall come to that later, but the point for the moment is that God is among you of a truth.

R.G. How is Jacob able to call the place El-Beth-el?

J.T. 'El' is God in the sense of power; it is the sense in which He had been made known to Abraham; He revealed Himself to Abraham as the Almighty God. Jacob would have in mind that this God of his fathers was in that place; he had built an altar earlier and called it "God, the God of Israel",

but here it is the God of Beth-el; that is, it is the house of God and He is the God of it, and it is not simply that He comes in there but that He is to be worshipped there.

R.G. You would have to see and know the Person to use that term.

J.T. It shows that Jacob had the idea of worship. In Deuteronomy we are told He is "the God of gods", but that is a very different idea from the God of Beth-el. If He is God of gods He is over China and has to do with Ethiopia. He has authority to execute judgment against them; but in Jacob's house He has different ideas. The God of Beth-el means that He has come near to us and we must worship Him.

C.T. Do we see this in Acts 10 where it says that they magnified God? Is that the thought of the house?

J.T. Quite so. Jacob experienced the thought of "a people near unto him" in Psalm 148 as God came near to him and stood by him. And every young person should think of what he may experience at the meetings. Are they in a hurry to get out? That is the feeling Jacob had at first; he said, It is a dreadful place! But then afterward he anointed a pillar. In chapter 35 he comes back twenty years older and with a large family, and God talks to him and tells him to go to Beth-el. He prepared himself to go and he ordered his family to do the same; so they buried their gods and went to Beth-el, and we are told that Jacob's name was changed, as if to say that God liked him better. God changed Jacob's name at Peniel, and Jacob said much more in Beth-el the second time than he did the first time. In changing Jacob's name at Peniel God did not tell him His own name; that took place when he came back to Beth-el; it is a place of revelation and a place for living, so that the house of God implies God's presence.

It is a place of life, and Corinthians opens up that it is where things come out and there is prophecy.

-- .R. Reverting back to what we get by the Spirit, would you speak of the man in Corinthians that fell down as getting that impression by the Spirit? Was he filled by the Spirit or was he just impressed by the fact that God was there?

J.T. God was there not only in relation to him but in relation to the whole company, and he came into it. The Holy Spirit is God, we must keep that before us.

J.W.D. In Corinthians certain conditions prevailed and God was not in them. Things can be darkened, but having God among us implies proper conditions, does it not? Just because we have a meeting in our locality it does not mean that there is a condition like this.

J.T. No, indeed; there may be a bad condition into which He cannot come. The divine Presence always implies conditions. So if we are ambitious to be teachers and speaking with tongues and so forth it will darken the position.

J.B. Would the Lord in speaking to the woman in John 4 bring her to what God had in view in connection with Jacob? There is reference back to Jacob and then He begins to speak in connection with worship.

J.T. He had to refute what she was saying and He was right in that, but even though He refuted what she said she went on and referred back to Jacob. Then she said, "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship". He said, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what"; you do not know what you worship. She had said, "I see that

thou art a prophet". What prophesying it was! and she had come into that. Jacob is not presented here as a prophet, he is connected with the house of God. When she said, "I see that thou art a prophet", the Lord did not despise her, but He went on to tell her about worship. Why did He not speak to Nicodemus about worship when He spoke to him? This woman had said, "I see that thou art a prophet", and now there is hope, she is ready to take in the truth; we need to be ready to take in the truth.

C.T. You were speaking of Jacob's name being changed. Will God change our names today?

J.T. Yes, but He reserves the disclosure of His own name; that is an advanced thought. He reserves His own Name but He changes your name under certain conditions. Jacob provided them; he got on well in Peniel; he said to the man who wrestled with him, "I will not let thee go except thou bless me". The woman in Samaria would not say that, though she wanted the blessing as did Jacob. He wanted the blessing, and the ground for the blessing there was that he was powerful, he wrestled with the man to the breaking of the day; he had power with God. That is the point, and that means wrestling in prayer and having the light that God will speak at such a time in the history of your soul. God says, You are changing over your natural will now, and He changes Jacob's name to what means 'a prince'. It seems that Israel means 'prince of God', or 'one that prevails', and God has use for a man that prevails spiritually.

J.W.D. His ego is changed.

J.T. The whole moral being of the man is changed. But did God tell him His own name there? No, He did not. He awaited His opportunity at Beth-el and there in chapter 35 He said, "I am the Almighty God".

A.B. Is it not beautiful to see in chapter 35 that God was on speaking terms with men? God went up from the place where He had talked with Jacob and Jacob called the place Beth-el, not because God appeared to him but because God talked with him.

J.T. Quite so, that is the ground on which Jacob pours the drink-offering on the pillar. In our reading today we should make clear how in Exodus 40 the divine requirements are fully met and the tabernacle is set up according to divine standard. We come to the idea of the house in the end of the chapter but the anointing is in verse 9 where it says, "Thou shalt take the anointing oil". We had yesterday the component parts of the oil that was used here; Jacob had no oil like it in Genesis. First the parts of the tabernacle are put together and then the oil is used. That is what Corinthians brings out, for the apostle says, "No one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:3), showing what a place the anointing has and where the oil is. This is the oil we have in Exodus 40 and it is brought in here after the mention of the court: "And thou shalt take the anointing oil, and anoint the tabernacle, and all that is in it, and shalt hallow it, and all its utensils; and it shall be holy. And thou shalt anoint the altar of burnt-offering, and all its utensils". They are all anointed, the utensils as well as the altar; then it says, "And thou shalt hallow the altar, and the altar shall be most holy". In Leviticus the altar is anointed seven times, referring to the Person of Christ who presented Himself without spot to God by the eternal Spirit. The Spirit is greatly stressed in connection with the altar and it is said to be most holy. Then the laver is in verse 11, "And thou shalt anoint the laver and its stand"; and that finishes the matter of the tabernacle. Then we have the matter of the priests; and when we come to verse 34 it says, "And the cloud covered the tent of meeting,

and the glory of Jehovah filled the tabernacle". You can see we have come here to something much greater than Beth-el; God came there and stood by Jacob but now we have the glory filling the tabernacle, and it says that "Moses could not enter into the tent of meeting, for the cloud abode on it, and the glory of Jehovah filled the tabernacle". We have typically the greatest collective thought here.

A.B. Would mutuality be in mind, the co-ordinating of all Israel in the matter?

J.T. That is what Exodus teaches us, it is the main thought after chapter 35; the tabernacle is the whole thought, you might say, with the exception of the breakdown in chapter 32. This thought we are engaged with now is the dominating idea in Exodus; it is the house of God and everything must conform to the commandment.

-- .T. Do you mean the anointing is the full thought here in Exodus, and that we are part of the assembly as the anointed vessel?

J.T. Yes. We are getting help now as we are challenging ourselves as to what we have in the system, in the tabernacle, and in our houses, and whether we are anointed. That is what we are aiming for and Corinthians enriches the idea greatly for us, telling us that in order to say, "Lord Jesus", in the assembly we need the Spirit.

T.U. You have said that anointing is in view of testimony; is this a further thought here?

J.T. Yes, this is the full thought of God in the type. He has complete control of the tabernacle and He is restful in it. Even Moses cannot serve in the presence of this glory, for God says, I thoroughly accept all this and I want it all to Myself.

G.A.T. Is this the answer to the affliction of the saints?

J.T. The offerings for the tabernacle in chapter 25 and now this result are the answer, and God is

saying, I am perfectly restful here. It is what is heavenly down here in testimony. It says further, "The cloud abode on it ... . And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel journeyed in all their journeys. And if the cloud were not taken up, then they did not journey until the day that it was taken up". It is a testimonial position and everything is controlled by the cloud, it is the presence of God among us. There is a greater thing than elders or deacons -- God is greater, and this is God Himself.

Ques. Would the early chapters of Numbers fit into this? The end of Exodus 40 seems to be a point stressed in Numbers 9.

J.T. It is the external position there but in Exodus we are presenting ourselves, "whose house are we". In early Numbers the priests and Levites are brought forward as the only ones to have to do with the assembling of the tabernacle, and after that thought the next thing is the priesthood. The people themselves are viewed tribally in Numbers and also militarily. These are all features that exist in the wilderness where we are to view ourselves as sojourners. But here we have the idea of the tabernacle as composed of the saints, and God is there of a truth so that anyone who comes in realises that God is there, and the whole system is regulated by the cloud.

Rem. So that priestly service and levitical service are for the saints and to the saints. It is a concrete idea and we are not to look at the matter abstractly.

J.T. Quite so.

A.N.W. Is Acts 2 the antitype and 1 Corinthians 12 the inauguration?

J.T. Acts 2 is the inauguration of the position, the initial idea, and then in Corinthians Paul is dealing with the gentiles. The question of the Spirit and the anointing is before us in these meetings and

heaven would challenge us as to whether we are alive in the assembly and taking part in our place according to divine ordering. Is my functioning in the power of the anointing? Am I functioning at all? Am I living? Each has his place and each part is to be functioning in the power of the anointing. You cannot even say, "Lord Jesus", without the power of the Spirit.

J.W.D. There is the suggestion of a supreme state of soul that Moses could not enter into; is that not the interior position? And do we hold our own personal relations with God in the system as greater than all that serve in it?

J.T. Yes. God is fully delighted with what is here. He is wholly complacent in the scene and even Moses cannot serve. It is God Himself who is present.

Ques. Is the anointing the Spirit objectively, and the cloud the Spirit subjectively?

J.T. The cloud would just mean the divine Presence, it is a symbol and is what is seen outwardly. God Himself is inside, dwelling there; He is in thick darkness, but nevertheless there. In christianity He is here in light.

G.A.T. In 1 Corinthians 15 God is all in all.

J.T. That is so. The tabernacle is not final, it is a wilderness position but the principle is there of God being all in all; He fills the whole scene.

L.E.S. Over against our calling Jesus 'Lord' by the Holy Spirit is the one who says, "Curse on Jesus".

J.T. It is an awful thought that anyone should say, "Curse on Jesus".

L.E.S. Why is it brought in there?

J.T. It is the exposure of the conditions in the wilderness. If there is rivalry in the assembly the devil gets in and there is something of that kind.

U.O.G. What is the difference between the cloud and the Spirit?

J.T. It is the same idea, but it is all to be viewed contextually. Here the cloud is mentioned first as covering the tent of meeting, and then the glory of Jehovah filled the tabernacle. The glory filling is another thought; it is not filling the tent of meeting; the word for 'tabernacle' is not the same as 'tent of meeting'. The tabernacle is the full thought of where God dwells but the tent of meeting is where God meets us. As God meets with us conditions change and God is with us, we realise His presence, that is the inside. In verses 36 to 38 we have striking emphasis on God's presence. God's dwelling; those three verses are to be taken by themselves.

T.U. Is the glory linked with one specific meeting or with every meeting?

J.T. The glory is present in every meeting. There is more than one glory because we go "from glory to glory", but here we have only one general idea and that is the place of God's dwelling. The cloud conveys the public idea and indicates that God is there. You take off your hat in the meeting and are reverential because God is there.

R.G. Is the cloud in verse 36 a confirmation of chapter 33?

J.T. That was to honour Moses. Moses pitched his tent outside the camp and God honoured him there; but this is not to honour Moses here. God is saying, so to speak, I can go on without you; I can go on with no Moses in authority and no Levites. It is God; God will tabernacle with men.

C.T. If I come to the meeting with the end of the chapter in mind will it regulate me?

J.T. Quite so. We should look for the glory in every coming together. If we look for it, we shall see it.

-- .R. Is this the viewpoint of looking at it from the mountain? "How goodly are thy tents, Jacob".

J.T. There it is tents; this is the tabernacle. The allusion there is to how the saints are set around the tabernacle of God.

J.K. Would that contribute to this condition?

J.T. That is what is to be seen, the proximity of the houses where we dwell to where God abides. Those were the dwellings of Jacob, but there is also the dwelling of God.

THE ANOINTING (4)

1 Peter 2:4, 5; Exodus 29:1 - 9, 21, 43 - 46

J.T. Priesthood is in mind at this time, and the passage in Peter was suggested because the saints are formally, as christians, brought forward as a holy priesthood to offer up sacrifices to God by Jesus Christ. I thought that we should have an authoritative scripture from the New Testament, and then what we read in the Old Testament asserts the fact that priesthood applies to all christians. The priesthood is carried on by the saints "by Jesus Christ" which would correspond with what we have in Exodus as to Aaron and his house. Exodus affords instructions at remarkable length as to priesthood, chapters 28 and 29 both being very long chapters and both occupied throughout with the priesthood, showing how important it is in the divine system and how it secures the presence of God. In the closing verses read God says, "And there will I meet with the children of Israel; and it shall be hallowed by my glory. And I will hallow the tent of meeting, and the altar; and I will hallow Aaron and his sons, that they may serve me as priests. And I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel, and will be their God". This is the permanent position secured in the tabernacle and the system is maintained in a living way by the priests.

L.E.S. Is there a link with what we had in our previous reading in that Peter in his epistle brings forward the priesthood first and then goes on to the house of God later?

J.T. That is what I thought, and Acts 2 gives us the inauguration of the system. Christ being at the right hand of God received from the Father the Spirit of the Father, as it says, "Having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which ye behold and hear". What

was manifest before the eyes of men was thus explained. Peter being used to set out the truth of the inaugural position; and now in writing to persons of the dispersion he mentions the fact that though far away from Jerusalem and separated from all God's original arrangements and personnel, yet they were a holy nation there among the gentiles. They had their High Priest, for though dispersed they carried on the service of God by Jesus Christ.

These chapters in Exodus are written to instruct us in detail as to Christ in ourselves, for we are not dealing with something at a distance, indeed there is something that exists at the present moment in this room for Christ and for God. God would impress us with the greatness of the priestly family, Aaron and his sons. Chapter 28 speaks of the garments of the high priest and also of the sons of Aaron, but is very brief about the latter. The chapter is expressive of God's thoughts, every item they wore expressed something of God, something to dignify and consecrate Him in: our thoughts; that is what the garments really mean. And then chapter 29 is to bring out how the priests were anointed as thus garbed. Underlying the anointing are the thoughts of God, the dignity and holiness attached to the priestly family, and so it is incumbent on each one of us to be sure that we belong to that family and to associate ourselves with our Aaron as the great High Priest above.

L.E.S. Would judgment beginning at the house of God refer to the priestly side being seen?

J.T. It is a time of judgment and Peter alludes to that in chapter 4, "The time of having the judgment begin from the house of God is come". We are the house as well as being the priests. Have you something else to say about the judgment?

L.E.S. Is the judgment based on the priestly side being in evidence?

J.T. Yes, the judgment was discerned in the Urim and Thummim; the idea of lights and perfections is suggested by them. It is through them that matters of judgment in the assembly are solved.

C.T. In chapters 28 and 29 is the thought in priesthood the thought of service?

J.T. That is right, it is a good key note in both chapters. We are helped in the service in this wonderful dignity.

A.N.W. Is the reference in Peter to our being built up in relation to the development of the work of God in our souls, or is it the maintenance of the house all through time?

J.T. I suppose Peter was informing them that the position in which they were thus addressed should be kept in mind because they were dispersed, the word was "to the sojourners of the dispersion". That would mean that they had been Jews and had become christians, but still had the land and thoughts of Israel in mind though they had been ousted from that position and were dispersed among the gentiles. Peter was impressing on them that they were not losing anything at all, because they really are themselves unofficially what had been at Jerusalem; they had everything among themselves as dispersed. That would not apply to gentile believers because they never had anything to do with Jerusalem; they were not scattered but were right where they had been brought up, whereas the Jews were dispersed from some other place, many of them from Jerusalem itself where the temple was. So Peter was telling them that they were themselves the temple and the priesthood, and that the service of God must be carried on by them.

A.N.W. In reality they had lost nothing but had gained as becoming christians, and the work of God is carried forward in them.

J.T. That is the point. The dispersion is an allusion to the government of God, for every Jewish person is suffering under the hand of God in that regard, and the more he suffers the more the Lord will take account of him. Peter's epistles were to impress this upon the Jewish christians in those provinces. It does not say that Peter laboured in his work of instructing the saints; the word 'laboured' is connected very much with Paul, but Peter in teaching the Jews would turn their minds to Exodus, like the Lord Himself in His discourse on the way to Emmaus. He would open up this chapter and other chapters in Exodus to them, and now that is our privilege, we can speak from these scriptures to one another. It must be exceedingly interesting to heaven that we so far away in the West can turn to these passages that Peter would have used.

L.E.S. The link here with Peter is remarkable, and then you referred to Paul, which makes one think of what is said about his movements in regard to Bithynia, that "the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them" to go there. The Spirit of Jesus would be connected with the anointing oil, the myrrh and suffering.

J.T. Quite so. You mean that Paul had laboured among the dispersion and now the Spirit of Jesus would have him labour in Europe, which is in principle labouring in America, because America is Europe extended. The Spirit of Jesus turned him this way, the man in Macedonia representing the gentiles of the West, as he says, "Pass over into Macedonia and help us", Acts 16:9.

Rem. It is important that before Peter speaks of the great character that attaches to the people of God he stresses the movement of souls toward Christ and the idea of a functioning priesthood. It is not based on birth, because we are not born into the priestly family.

J.T. We can only take up the type here of Aaron and his sons. His daughters have a place too according to Leviticus, so the priesthood is really a family, not born but called. It is called in the same way that Aaron is called. But then in addition Christ is constituted a Priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedec. But Melchisedec had no children, which brings him personally into greater relief. The way it is set out in Hebrews is intended to bring Jesus into great prominence, so Melchisedec is just himself with no father, no mother, no beginning of days nor end of life, and he abides a priest continually. We may look with profit at the way Paul treats of this subject of priesthood and it will not interfere with our line of thought. Undoubtedly Paul is the writer of Hebrews and so he is impressing the Jews in his epistle. Peter would look toward the East and write to Jewish christians, but Paul would look toward the West. He does not call the saints priests in Hebrews; only Christ is Priest, and I think when we are in the period of waning christianity our only hope is Christ, we should be filled with His greatness; "Such a high priest became us", not as priests but as christians. Christ is the One from whom to learn priesthood in Hebrews, but Peter said as looking toward the East, "Yourselves also ... a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ". No doubt Paul would endorse that with other terms, but he does not bring it forward in Hebrews.

E.I.E. Would you say a word as to the difference between the Melchisedec and the Aaronic priesthoods?

J.T. The Melchisedec priesthood would bring out the greatness of Christ alone, without any family, so we are not sons of Melchisedec at all. It is a question in his case of how great a person he was, and how great the saints are to have such a High Priest,

"For such a high priest became us, holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and become higher than the heavens". That indicates how great the saints are.

A.N.W. Peter would indicate a strong affinity between the living Stone and living stones. What is meant by the living stones?

J.T. Surely it is Peter's line to introduce the thought of the living Stone and the living stones because Peter is a living stone according to what is said by Matthew, Peter meaning 'a stone'.

J.W.D. Shall we have any relation to the Melchisedec priesthood as such in the world to come?

J.T. He is not set with a family, and it is a question of how we come in under him. Aaron is the priest at the present time, from the standpoint of functioning. Aaron was a dying man, but Melchisedec is not so presented; he represents Christ personally as John would present Him. The book of Revelation, which is John's volume about priesthood, says that Christ has "made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father". We are made priests to God in Revelation 1, then we are priests of God and of Christ in chapter 20. It is perhaps applicable for us to look at the book of Revelation in connection with our subject. In chapter 20, verse 6, it says, "Blessed and holy he who has part in the first resurrection, over these the second death has no power; but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years". In the first chapter John in his preamble says, "And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us, and has washed us from our sins in his blood, and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father ...". So we are priests in the first chapter, active priests toward Him; the thought is presented in the objective case; but in chapter 20 it

is more that we are of God and of Christ; we are in relation to God family-wise. Whether it means that we are derived from or whether that we are belonging to God and Christ, in any case it establishes our status there. In chapter 5 we have another set of saints, and verse 10 says He has "made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth"; so that the book has priesthood in mind applying to ourselves and also to others later. The Melchisedec function is to be all millennial and he is not stated to have any children or family or even any parents.

Ques. In these thoughts of John in chapter 1 it is "priests to ... God", and in chapter 20 "priests of God". Does that correspond with Peter's thoughts of the holy priesthood on the one hand and the royal priesthood on the other?

J.T. You might say that. The link with Christ is remarkable, and in the millennium we shall have a priestly place of course. Ezekiel opens up much as to the actual service in that day before God, the priesthood there being related to Zadok; he is the priest in that setting and not Melchisedec, the allusion being to a person who was victorious under David. The link is with that, I think, because he was one who suffered loyally, allying himself with David in his time of affliction.

-- .R. Will you say a word as to sonship? It does not come in with the Melchisedec priesthood, does it?

J.T. Oh, yes. The One who said He was a Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec saluted Him as Son in Hebrews, and He is saluted as Priest by God according to Psalm 110.

Ques. Does the verse help that says, "Our Lord has sprung out of Juda", Hebrews 7:14?

J.T. That is suggestive of His sonship. But Melchisedec is a different order of priesthood from the line established in Levi; he stands alone as alluding

to Christ, just as John pictures His uniqueness in his gospel; having neither father nor mother, nor beginning of days, nor end of life, he abides a Priest continually. He is a divine Person and stands alone. But He is not to stand alone as to christianity because we are associated with Him in the family sense according to the Aaronic viewpoint, and so Exodus is a type generally of christianity, it is the present time.

G.A.T. Do you look at the saints as together in a general way as a kingdom of priests?

J.T. We are made a kingdom, it is a political thought. The idea is that He has made us a kingdom, and priests; priests are a distinct thought. The idea of a kingdom in that sense is that we have power to go on, the shout of a king is among the saints. We are not protected by any earthly means, but we are protected morally and spiritually; we cannot count on man's kingdom to protect us.

-- .T. Does the kingdom suggest power to maintain the rights of God?

J.T. Yes, to maintain them in a spiritual way, and you may be put to death in doing it. The Lord said we are not to fear those who kill the body; they cannot go beyond that, but the kingdom enables me to go through victoriously even as Christ who was slain in His victory. What we get in Acts 7 really depicts the power of the kingdom, that Stephen knelt down and prayed as they were stoning him and said, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge". The kingdom would give you moral power to be victorious; the Lord said to Smyrna, "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of life".

G.A.T. Would what you say now be the kingdom of God made good in our souls?

J.T. It is what we are conscious of, and there should be power in our souls so that we are not overpowered by circumstances.

C.T. Is it a different thought in Revelation 5 where it speaks of God's kings and priests?

J.T. That alludes to the saints that are coming after us: "the things that are about to be after these" alludes to chapter 4 and onward, so it has in mind the Lamb on the throne and how He makes kings and priests to God in that day.

J.W.D. Does it suggest that there is a common bond between all families in the Revelation?

J.T. Yes, so that though the book itself is dealing mainly with what is future from chapter 4 to 19, yet viewed in that way as treating of ourselves and of what is coming after us it is a binding book. The assemblies have the book and yet the remnant in a coming day has a link with us. Anybody that persecutes the Jews will have to answer for it, just as God has said that anybody who touches Cain cannot do it with impunity. Even though he has a curse on him God has not lost sight of him.

E.I.E. Would it help our young brothers at the tribunals if they would think of themselves as part of a kingdom of priests?

J.T. That is the thing. We are able to pray for the tribunals and their members, but the young men are morally greater than they. The idea is foreseen in Romans where God has made us a kingdom and we "reign in life". Christians "reign in life"; that is the kingdom for every one of us; the life enjoyed in Christ is a part of the gospel and it makes us victorious in all circumstances, especially before the tribunals. They are reigning, but so are we reigning and we reign by suffering, "We are put to death all the day long ... but in all these things we more than conquer through him that has loved us", Romans 8:36, 37.

G.A.T. Would Paul before Agrippa support that thought? He says, "I count myself happy", and he wished that all were like him.

J.T. Quite so; "I would to God ... all who have heard me this day, should become such as I also am, except these bonds", Acts 26:29.

R.G. "All are yours; and ye are Christ's, and Christ is God's", 1 Corinthians 3:22, 23.

J.T. That is the position; reigning is manifest in the kingdom and it belongs to each one of us.

--.R. Does Paul have that in view when he says, "The sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed to us", Romans 8:18?

J.T. Just so, the position is to make us independent in every way of things here.

J.B. Would the greatness of Jacob be seen in that regard as he blessed Pharaoh in the spirit of the anointing?

J.T. Yes, quite so; Jacob and all the other anointed ones are superior.

A.N.W. So that on the kingly side we set forth the excellencies of Him who has called us.

J.T. I think all that is very applicable at the present time. I may be a prisoner at the hand of men, but I am free; if I am a priest I am reigning.

G.A.T. I know we do not show what we should; at the tests we are weak.

J.T. That is to be owned by all of us but the Lord and the Spirit add Their help to our weakness so that we should not fail. If we are in doubt what to do the Lord will make a decision for us: this help is all in the system that God has set up so that we shall reign in life. But now that is a general outlook on the matter and what we are engaged with particularly is the anointing, the priesthood, and the oil by which the priesthood is anointed. First of all we have, "This is the thing which thou shalt do to them to hallow them, that they may serve me as priests, take one young bullock, and two rams without blemish, and unleavened bread, and unleavened

cakes mingled with oil, and unleavened wafers anointed with oil -- of wheaten flour shalt thou make them. And thou shalt put them into one basket, and present them in the basket, with the bullock and the two rams". All this refers to redemption and then, "Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring near", which means that they are to be served, "and shalt bathe them with water". The idea of death was there; God as incarnate in Christ came by water and blood, "And thou shalt take the garments, and clothe Aaron with the vest, and the cloak of the ephod, and the ephod, and the breastplate, and shalt gird him with the girdle of the ephod. And thou shalt put the turban upon his head, and fasten the holy diadem to the turban, and shalt take the anointing oil, and pour it on his head, and anoint him". The first great matter, after redemption is provided for, is that Aaron is by himself; he is pre-eminent in all things, even in the anointing. In chapter 40, which we had in our previous reading, it says the sons were to be anointed as he was anointed, but he was anointed by himself. In type Christ is anointed by Himself "with the oil of gladness" above His companions, and that is important, for He must always have pre-eminence.

G.A.T. Is that why you started yesterday with the Lord being anointed?

J.T. He is not seen as anointed for the service of God in what we had yesterday; it was rather what He was doing towards man that was in mind. What we read here is more in relation to service God-ward. He is to serve Me, God says, in the priest's office; Christ is pre-eminent in that. And then further, "Thou shalt bring his sons near, and clothe them with the vests. And thou shalt gird them with the girdle -- Aaron and his sons" -- Aaron is kept separate -- "and bind the high caps on them; and the priesthood shall be theirs for an everlasting statute; and thou shalt consecrate Aaron and his sons".

Although anointed separately, he is still linked with his sons as our Lord Jesus is with us.

T.U. Is there any link with the reference in Peter to offering "spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God", 1 Peter 2:5?

J.T. That is what is in mind. If Peter had five readings as we are having here you may be sure he would turn to Exodus, and so we are on sure ground in linking what Peter had then with this book.

T.U. In the epistle of Peter is there any feature of priestly service where we function without Christ?

J.T. I do not think so. We ought to offer everything, whatever it is, in the name of the Lord Jesus and He presents our prayers according to the figure in Revelation 8"that he might give efficacy to the prayers of all saints at the golden altar which was before the throne".

T.U. What about addressing the Father or God in the morning meeting? Some brothers finish 'in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ' and some finish abruptly, without reference to Him.

J.T. That would be a question of scriptural example. In all courts they allude to precedents which have been accepted; and in regard to assembly matters, we have precedents set out in the book of Acts so that we can go by them. The thought is that everything is presented to God in the name of the Lord Jesus, "For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father". That is, the Spirit is active as we present things through the Mediator to God, and that is the general principle; we do not do anything without Him.

T.U. What would you say about Romans 11, where Paul says "Amen", without referring to Christ? Is it permissible either way?

J.T. Whatever Scripture warrants is acceptable. God has confidence that if we are omitting the name of the Lord Jesus we are not forgetting Him.

-- .R. Would it be covered by the scripture, "And everything, whatever ye may do in word or in deed, do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father by him", Colossians 3:17?

J.T. That is a good reference. Now to get to the gist of this chapter, the sons are brought in in verses 8 and 9. It is a long chapter and we cannot enter into it all, but in verse 21 we have further allusion to redemption for that must be the basis of our anointing. "And thou shalt take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it on Aaron, and on his garments, and on his sons, and on the garments of his sons with him; and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him". There we have Christ and the saints. His pre-eminence is already fixed in our minds in the early part of the chapter so now God has confidence in us that the service can go on with due allowance for the dignity of Christ.

A.N.W. How does the anointing of Christ typically stand in relation to the statement, "He that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one", Hebrews 2:11?

J.T. That passage is a near thought to priesthood for though we do not have the actual word we have the suggestion of it. Indeed it really refers to priesthood although the word 'sanctifies' serves the purpose; it is a question of the Person of Christ. In John 12 the corn of wheat falls into the ground and dies and as it does it bears much fruit; it is an agricultural thought to show that we are one with Christ, we are of a kind with Him, the Sanctifier.

G.A.T. Does it not also say, He "has anointed thee with oil of gladness above thy companions", Hebrews 1:9?

J.T. Yes, and it is to bring out that the writer is bent on establishing in our souls the supremacy and superiority and pre-eminence of Christ in every connection.

To return to our chapter, what is to be noted is the importance of the garments. In verse 21 they have a great place as gathering up the teaching of chapter 28, "And thou shalt take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it on Aaron, and on his garments, and on his sons, and on the garments of his sons with him". Now this raises the whole thought of garments. God says in Luke 15, "Bring out the best robe", put divine thoughts on the saints, clothe them with My thoughts; that is what is in mind. It is a question of what God's thoughts are about us, how we are regarded by Him.

Rem. Psalm 133 speaks of brethren dwelling together in unity and then, "the precious oil upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, upon Aaron's beard, that ran down to the hem of his garments".

J.T. Yes, it ran down to the hem; that would mean that the holy anointing oil running down to Aaron's hem would beautify his person. It is for beautification. And the beard is not merely to keep him warm; it is beautification also, but it is entirely disregarded in modern times. The oil runs down to the hem, suggesting a finished matter; the garment is not loose but it is hemmed, referring, I believe, to Christ and the assembly; it is a finished matter.

C.T. I suppose that although Aaron's garments were set off by themselves, yet his sons' garments would be like his.

J.T. They would correspond. Chapter 28 is largely about Aaron, but the sons come in just at the end and what is stressed is their high caps. Aaron has a turban, alluding to the wonderful intelligence of Christ; but the sons are high-capped and they have linen breeches, meaning that there is the negation of all earthly activities. Whatever way you look at the garments, the anointing is on all. God is anointing these qualities.

Ques. When you speak of the negation of fleshly tendencies have you in mind that in Leviticus 21 we have two words used in connection with Aaron's progeny, his "sons" and his "seed"? The word 'seed' is used as distinguishing certain ones who had fleshly disabilities or disqualifications. How do such disabilities come about?

J.T. Are you thinking of difficulties with persons due to the working of will in themselves? Those disqualifications would be something in themselves; but sons of Aaron would be the full thought in the priestly family, and even his daughters are included. That is the family side more, the dignity side. But in these two chapters the garments are stressed, conveying what God's thoughts are about this matter.

J.W.D. We should have ability to think of the saints in that way.

J.T. That is the point; I can clothe you and you can clothe me with divine thoughts, not party thoughts but divine thoughts. God is able to speak of people abstractly and to disregard all outward defects. In John's epistle it says, "Every one begotten of God does not sin", (1 John 5:18); these are wonderful thoughts to extend to the saints and to one another.

L.E.S. Is there a link with Acts 20, "the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own"? Would that fit in with these thoughts of the blood?

J.T. Quite so, it refers to His own blood, Christ's blood. It is helpful in our everyday relations one with another if we are able to extend divine thoughts to the brethren. I shall love them if I can clothe them with the thoughts of God, but if I do not do it I shall not respect them.

A.W.Jr. You mentioned sisters earlier, and in Peter it speaks about the wives and feminine apparel, "whose adorning let it not be that outward one of

tressing of hair, and wearing gold, or putting on apparel; but the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which in the sight of God is of great price", 1 Peter 3:3, 4.

J.T. In that chapter we have the wife praying; "Ye husbands ... giving them honour, as also fellow-heirs of the grace of life, that your prayers be not hindered", 1 Peter 3:7. So the wife comes into the prayers and that sets out priesthood in function. Husbands are to dwell with their wives according to knowledge, "that your prayers be not hindered"; meaning that the wives are the daughters of Aaron, having part in priesthood.

J.W.D. We think of the saints in this exalted way in regard to the morning meeting almost exclusively, but we need to look at them in that light all the time.

J.T. It is an immense subject for investigation as applying to the assembly meeting. On the Lord's day how do we sit down together in relation to one another? What are our thoughts in relation to the brethren? One sister said, I could not listen to the prayer because I was watching the feather on another sister's hat. She was lost to the service; she was not thinking on the prayer, not occupied with the priestly garments.

J.B. In Kings it speaks of the keeper of the wardrobe.

J.T. All matters of clothing come under what we are saying, and there are many references to it, but no other chapters say so much as these do. The whole of chapter 28 is about the high priest except one or two verses, for God is always clothing Christ so that He may have the first place in our hearts. When we think of the linen breeches the suggestion is of the priest restraining the flesh, because linen has a cooling, non-irritating effect on the skin. We should

be sober and not too enthusiastic about anything, even spiritual thoughts. What we want is divine thoughts, and not one thought only, for you cannot clothe persons with just one thought.

-- .R. Your statement regarding the saints in the morning meeting is helpful. All that we do there should be in the power of the Spirit, even the giving out of hymns and the way they are started.

J.T. Yes, the thing is to be occupied with God's thoughts. It is not then the time for mending things; it is the finished product, the hem of the garment that is in evidence as the service is going on.

J.W.D. We are referring to service God-ward, are we not? How does the composition of the anointing oil, including the myrrh, link on with that?

J.T. The anointing oil is composed of myrrh, and two other ingredients half as much, and then cassia as much as myrrh. Is your question how that enters into the service of God? Do you not think that when we leave the dwellings of Jacob in the morning we realise that Satan has been ready in every dwelling to offset the right feelings of the saints so that they might be unequal to the service of God? To rectify that there is the system that God has set up with the Advocate above interceding for us, and the effect of that is to bring us back to what Christ was here. He was never upset; He went into Martha's house and she criticised Him and He said, "Martha, Martha ..." and she was set right. So I am to set myself right before I leave the dwelling of Jacob; I am not upset by the systems which are around, I have my high cap on, my affections are free and pure, and I have power as suggested in the linen undergarments so that I can join in at once when I come to the assembly. I am thus able to think with God and to clothe that young sister or brother with divine thoughts. These are things for our souls to consider. And then the bread coming

first in the service reminds us that "we being many, are one body", and we clothe ourselves in that way.

G.A.T. As coming under the influence of the anointing oil we can do that.

J.T. That is the point, we come under the influence of the oil and we are reigning in life and are thus able to take part in the assembly in liberty and power.

C.T. Do I understand that as I leave my home I am to consider my garments?

J.T. Yes, get into priestly trim or else you will not be able to take part in priestly power in the assembly.

We should look now at the end of this chapter because it is of prime importance. Verse 43 says, "There will I meet with the children of Israel; and it shall be hallowed by my glory. And I will hallow the tent of meeting, and the altar; and I will hallow Aaron and his sons, that they may serve me as priests". This is a fixed matter, all according to priesthood, so that God's affairs are taken care of. So when the time comes in the service we are able to use the right hymn; there is a time for everything and the time for singing requires not only the right tune but the right words. The priests are all anointed so that there is praise right from the start. Then in Psalm 133 we see that it is a finished matter because there is the hem of the garment. The next psalm brings in the priest and it is the last song of degrees. That is how matters stand in the assembly, a hymn is given out and we know how it is to be sung, and then we proceed with the bread and cup and what follows on that, because we know there are other glories to follow; and so we go up, and finally we go out on the upper level, not on the lower.

U.O.G. So that what follows is beautiful, "And they shall know that I am Jehovah their God". Would that be the outcome of it?

J.T. Yes, God is now among us.

L.E.S. So while priesthood does not go through into eternity in its official setting, yet the persons are there; and the fulness of it would be seen here, as it says in Revelation 21:3, "God himself shall be with them, their God".

J.T. Beautiful! What incentive there is for our service in all that, and what may be reached so that the position is fixed and the priesthood carried on! God can trust the priests.

G.A.T. Is there a higher thought than priests in the morning meeting?

J.T. Yes, priesthood is only to meet the corrupting conditions in which we still are; but in eternity there will be no need for priesthood. The priests protect the position to keep out evil, and they are intelligent in knowing what to do.

G.T. Is priesthood based on sonship?

J.T. Sonship is the greater thought, it is a family matter.

A.B. The holy garments would protect us from surrounding evils.

J.T. That is the idea; the point in priesthood is that things are kept pure and in power.

A.B. In Zechariah Joshua the high priest was clothed with filthy garments, but those that stood by were told to take them off him and put on festival robes.

J.T. This chapter has a most stimulating finish as we bring it down to ourselves. "And they shall know that I am Jehovah their God, who have brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, to dwell in their midst: I am Jehovah their God".

C.T. So the whole thought is that God has done this, He has brought us out.

J.T. Yes, and He tells us here why He did it -- that He might dwell with us. It is a great incentive to make way for Him and to understand this wonderful matter of priesthood, anointed priesthood.

THE ANOINTING (5)

1 Samuel 2:10 (2nd sentence); 1 Samuel 16:11 - 13; 1 Kings 19:15 - 18

J.T. It is hoped that through this book of 1 Samuel the Lord will add much to our subject, especially as we have Christ in mind as King; and then in 1 Kings it is in mind to touch on the idea of the anointing of prophets. We have seen Christ in the gospels anointed in relation to the preaching, and in Acts 10 anointed by God in relation to His general service, and God being with Him in that service. Then we have had the general thought of the anointing of the saints and how we come into it, and the assembly viewed as anointed in the types of the tabernacle and of the priesthood. So what remains is what enters into these scriptures that we have read, that is the king and the prophets. Inasmuch as the saints are regarded as kings there will be a reference necessarily to us in that capacity; but 1 Samuel will also afford opportunity to bring in the general position of ministry yielding fruits as seen in Hannah and Abigail. Hannah alludes to the anointing in a very significant way in her prophetic message as she says, "Jehovah will judge the ends of the earth; and he will give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed". In the phrase, "his anointed". David was undoubtedly in mind as a type of Christ, and the Spirit of God stresses his personal appearance as entering into his qualifications for the anointing. That is perhaps additional to anything we have had in mind so far.

As to Abigail, she comes in after Samuel, a prophet of God, dies. He is a great minister in the book and clearly she has profited by his ministry because she corresponds with David femininely. This will profitably come in for review, and I should like to remark that the feminine side is really the product of

ministry, for clearly Abigail is the product of Samuel's ministry. She was informed of David, although not necessarily acquainted with him personally, and she had the mind of God about him as the anointed so that she speaks of him in chapter 25 as "bound in the bundle of the living with Jehovah thy God", as she says, "because my lord fights the battles of Jehovah, and evil has not been found in thee all thy days. And if a man is risen up to pursue thee and to seek thy life, the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of the living with Jehovah thy God". Thus she has a clear view of David and she is introduced in the chapter as bearing a correspondence to him in a personal sense, as verse 3 says, "The woman was of good understanding, and of a beautiful countenance". The understanding would allude to what was of God in the ministry at the time, chiefly through Samuel, so that there is a certain richness in this connection which the Lord brings before us as obtainable at the present time and the anointing is in line with it in view of results for God.

L.E.S. How would the thought of judging come in in relation to the anointing: "Jehovah will judge the ends of the earth"?

J.T. I suppose it shows the wide outlook the prophetess had, if we can speak of Hannah in that way in relation to the whole of her word. Among other things she said, "My heart exulteth in Jehovah, my horn is lifted up in Jehovah", and later, "For Jehovah is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed", and further, "Jehovah killeth, and maketh alive; he bringeth down to Sheol, and bringeth up. Jehovah maketh poor, and maketh rich, he bringeth low, also he lifteth up, he raiseth up the poor out of the dust; from the dung-hill he lifteth up the needy, to set him among nobles; and he maketh them inherit a throne of glory; for the pillars of the earth are Jehovah's, and he hath set the world upon

them. He keepeth the feet of his saints, but the wicked are silenced in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. They that strive with Jehovah shall be broken to pieces; in the heavens will he thunder upon them. Jehovah will judge the ends of the earth; and he will give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed". So that what you refer to would seem to be included in a very wide range of thought, including the pillars of the earth and the fact that He had set the world upon them; and that is the habitable earth according to the note, so that it is not only Israel that is in mind. Hannah had a wide outlook therefore, and she would include the whole position of God's operations and feel the need of judgment in the ends of the earth, its extreme limits.

Ques. Is there a suggestion in Abigail of the result of this stabilising effect prefigured in the pillars? Her knowing David as the prevailer, and being strengthened by God against the elements set out in Nabal might be suggestive of our knowing Christ as the Prevailer and King in the presence of the elements around that are opposed.