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Pages 1 to 336, Man and Woman in the Assembly, and Other Ministry, 1933 - 1936. (Volume 205). One address and one reading are omitted as they are published elsewhere in the New Series Volumes.

HOUSEHOLD OF FAITH LEADING TO THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD AND HIS SERVICE (1)

Galatians 6:10; Genesis 14:14; Genesis 15:1 - 4; Genesis 21:8 - 11; Genesis 24:2 - 4

I thought we might look at the household of faith. It contemplates that faith will be in those in it. The next step to the household of faith is the household of God, and that leads to the assembly.

One feature of the household idea is stewardship. In Genesis 24:2 Abraham speaks "to his servant, the eldest of his house, who ruled over all that he had".

Then training in the house is to be noticed. Genesis 14:14 says: "And Abram heard that his brother was taken captive; and he led out his trained servants, born in his house, three hundred and eighteen". How ill-trained we are in service and the things of God! The household idea is attractive; it should appeal to all believers. Control is there; training is there; influence is there. In Galatians the household of faith is referred to in addressing lawless christians.

An emergency arises in connection with Lot. A brother is taken north about two hundred miles. How are we going to meet it? You need your whole household to set that brother right, and it is a trained household. The number is three hundred and eighteen, not round numbers; every one is necessary. An untrained person would be in the way. The apostle sent a trained servant to Corinth in the person of Timothy. He had been "shewn" certain things at Corinth; in 1 Corinthians 5 it was a matter of report.

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The first element of training in a house is to be seen in the children. Influence is there in the father and mother. Love and affection must be there too.

Abram's allies were 'masters of covenant' (see J.N.D.'s note b to Genesis 14:13). Apollos was a good ally, but Timothy was a trained servant.

The "all" of Galatians 6:10 means all. "So then, as we have occasion, let us do good towards all". This enlarges us in our outlook. We must not look at the nations as a mass of conglomerate lawlessness; God has them in control.

What is faith? Is it light? It is more than light. Light comes by the eye, faith comes by hearing. Fundamentally faith is a gift. It is more substantive than light. See what marked those in Hebrews 11.

Chapter 15 brings in the thought of the seed, for the household of faith must be "wholly a right seed" (Jeremiah 2:21). Abram says, "I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus;" as if to say, 'he is all right, but what is he to me?' Abram is discriminative; he must have "wholly a right seed" with right antecedents, right father, right mother. A wife must be a sister, not a half-sister. Esau married two of the daughters of the land. Ishmael had a good father but a poor mother. Mongrels are objectionable in the house of God. Look at Rome, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, and so on -- the mothers are not right and the product cannot be right. The wholly right seed is Christ. Those of the right seed are of faith, and if they have the right mother they will apprehend the assembly.

In verse 9, the heifer comes first, then a she-goat, each mature. It is the feminine side in maturity. It means that Abram must go through things spiritually. He begins the four hundred years of suffering. It must be so, for it cannot be figured out in any other way; actually the children of Israel were in Egypt a little over two hundred years. So now

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Abram begins to feel things -- the birds of prey come down on the carcases. These represent the powers of Satan. Then the horror of great darkness suggests that Christ entered into everything on the cross.

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HOUSEHOLD OF FAITH LEADING TO THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD AND HIS SERVICE (2)

Genesis 26:1 - 4; Genesis 27:6 - 14; Genesis 28:1 - 5

J.T. We might look at the history of Isaac. It is an important question how those of the household of faith are to move in famine conditions. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob each had to do with famine conditions. Isaac is expressly charged not to go down to Egypt (Genesis 26:2).

Ques. Did Abraham suffer from going down?

J.T. It incurs evil consequences. Jehovah forestalls the evil in the case of Isaac. A direct word is given. Faith should teach us how to move in all conditions, but a direct word aids and encourages us. Isaac is told to "sojourn in this land", but he had also been told to "dwell in the land that I shall tell thee of". "This land" represents a present known land, a present known position in the testimony, but what is to be told keeps us in dependence. The sojourning is connected with "this land;" the dwelling with what is to come. It is like Ephesians 3:18. Paul had been at Ephesus three years, but the letter is something additional, and then there is something beyond that, "in order that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God". There is always more land to be possessed.

Ques. What is going down to Egypt?

J.T. It is turning to the world for support, the world in Egyptian character, that is in a moral sense, not geographical or governmental. Government is handed over to the gentiles, but the heavens still rule. As the Lord told Pilate: "Thou hadst

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no authority whatever against me if it were not given to thee from above" (John 19:11). And again, "The powers that be are ordained of God" (Romans 13:1).

Ques. What about "Love not the world, nor the things in the world" (1 John 2:15)?

J.T. That refers to the world in a moral way. It also says that "God so loved the world". The word for "world" there, kosmos, means 'ordered' or 'ornament'. That is, as ordered in the divine mind, God loved it. It is not 'He loves it', but "He loved it". It was made by Him.

Taking out citizenship papers, or joining labour unions, is like going down to Egypt. I am asserting my rights if I take out citizenship papers.

Ques. Suppose the taking out of papers is made obligatory by the government?

J.T. If the government wants to make you take an oath to bear arms, that you cannot do. But I would have no difficulty if the government came to me and said, 'You are living here, you earn your livelihood here, we are going to make you a citizen'. I thank God for that, but I cannot take an oath. Paul had certain advantages in being free born, but it is worthy of note that the saints never helped him in Jerusalem although he went to serve them. It was his nephew who helped him. Paul appealed to his citizenship, but it is low ground. Isaac did not become a Philistine, but remained a heavenly man in the land. Abimelech brings Ahuzzath his friend and Phichol the captain of his host to Isaac (Genesis 26:26). That is, he would overawe Isaac. One represents the military, the other the social, side, but Isaac overcomes them both, and that in peace. He makes no concession. He overcomes evil with good, and it says (verse 32), "And it came to pass the same day, that Isaac's servants came, and told him concerning the well that they had dug, and said to him, We have found water". Isaac had been seen

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(verse 23) going up to Beer-sheba, not going down to Egypt.

I do not look on the president or a king as in the wicked one. It is important to understand that we should obey what he directs which does not interfere with right principles. If it goes beyond right principles we must call a halt. The president is ordered of God; so are kings, and what should we do without them?

There is much suffering amongst us because we are not intelligent. We are inclined to be righteous overmuch, and this we are told not to be. We should see all things clearly, not all persons, but all things.

Ques. What is your opinion about government aid being received by those in fellowship?

J.T. Many say it is equivalent to going to the world, but I do not think so. We have public hospitals, public schools, roads, and so on; who provides these? We pay taxes, too. It is not private aid, it is government aid.

Ques. Should we first take advantage of government aid? We should be humbled if we do not take care of our own.

J.T. The conscience has to be taken into account in receiving government aid, but one is very thankful for a friendly government. Then again, it might not be principle, but pride, which refuses aid from the government.

Ques. What about Isaac going to Abimelech?

J.T. At this stage the Philistines had not reached their final position of enmity. Abraham and Isaac are both on terms with them. But it was a dangerous position and failure later came about. But Isaac was in the land; he was not in Egypt. God would not have appeared to him in Egypt. He was fortified from going there by a direct word from God, just as current ministry should fortify us lest we fail as Abraham did. The Philistine attitude is tentative here. God would not force things. Isaac is greater

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than they are, and God will hold things in abeyance with them until the time of David. As we have noted before, the day Isaac overcomes the two elements represented in the captain of the host and the friend, that same day they found water. Then we have the city idea in chapter 26: 33. It was not so with Abraham. It says in Genesis 21:31, "Therefore he called that place Beer-sheba", but in chapter 26, "therefore the name of the city is Beer-sheba to this day". Isaac has reached spiritually a point of order and government by making room for the Spirit, and that in peace. There is order in the household of Abram, but here it is government in a city. In Genesis 28:10, Beer-sheba is the starting point of Jacob. It is a point reached in the household of faith which stands.

We might now look at the subject of weaning. Hannah is said to have weaned Samuel, but here the mother's name is left out. It says: "And the child grew, and was weaned" (Genesis 21:8). Weaning is a fixed principle; it goes with growth and refers to believers in a christian household. Mary had not weaned the Lord spiritually, for when He was in the temple at the age of twelve, she says: "Child, why hast thou dealt thus with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee distressed" (Luke 2:48). The fixed principle was not there. The idea in weaning is that my child is cast upon God and I impress that upon him. A wife may maintain the principle when the husband fails. Abraham failed. "The thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son" (Genesis 21:11) -- that is, the casting out of Ishmael. It enhances the importance of having "a sister as wife" (1 Corinthians 9:5). In connection with this casting out it is remarkable that the Holy Spirit quotes her very words in Galatians 4:30. If the principle of weaning is not followed, we carry our children into the meeting, and in times of difficulty they follow blindly the lead we give, whether we are

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right or wrong. It must follow. Abraham here is governed by natural feelings.

Rem. Barnabas could not have weaned John Mark.

J.T. In Genesis 27:6 - 17 Rebecca was governed by divine communications. What Jehovah had said to her in chapter 25: 23 underlies her actions in these verses. She loves Jacob. She has her mind on the right man. She can even say, "On me be thy curse, my son!" Rebecca represents discrimination; she loves the spiritually lovable man. He was not an athlete; not a man of the field. She loves him before it says God loved him.

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HOUSEHOLD OF FAITH LEADING TO THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD AND HIS SERVICE (3)

Genesis 29:1 - 20; Genesis 37:3 - 10; Genesis 48:8 - 22

J.T. Today we might look at spiritual development as brought out in Jacob. Spiritual development is a great feature in the household of faith. It is reserved by the Spirit to be brought out in Jacob and his house. It is in the house where contrariety dominates for a long time. In Abraham's house that element is cast out; in Jacob's house it is overcome. Overcoming calls for patience with our brethren.

Joseph represents the spiritual side, and there is contrariety to the extent of hatred towards him; but love triumphs. None is lost. What we have had before us enters into this -- the trained servants, and going even to near Damascus for a brother. We cannot afford to lose a brother.

Ques. How do you view Laban in chapter 29?

J.T. He is a relative. I suggested this chapter so that we might see how we may secure our relatives. All the christians in the systems are our relatives. This chapter shows us how to reach them.

Ques. How is that done?

J.T. It is worthy of note that Jacob starts out from Beer-sheba under orders, and that in this connection the house of God comes to light (chapter 28: 17). Then in the light of the house of God chapter 29 comes before us. Note the stress laid on the relationship: "And it came to pass when Jacob saw Rachel the daughter of Laban his mother's brother, and the sheep of Laban his mother's brother, that Jacob went near, and rolled the stone from the mouth of the well, and watered the sheep of Laban his mother's brother" (verse 10). Thus a good way to reach our relatives in the denominations is to claim them as our brethren.

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Then the next point in securing them is to serve them. It says, verse 14: "And he abode with him a month's time"; that is minister to them and they will then recognise their obligations to you. During this month Rachel was Jacob's cousin and Laban his uncle only.

Ques. What is the force of the month's time?

J.T. You do not force things in approaching your relatives in the denominations. We too often make them shy by condemning right away. They think we are pulling down, and we should build up. I do not think we should bring in the assembly or fellowship immediately. Of course you hold the assembly and fellowship in your mind, but there is a whole month -- something fresh can be brought out each of the thirty days. Paul at Ephesus is a good example of what I mean. He finds certain disciples and discerns that they lack the fruit of the Spirit. So he inquires: "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed? And they said to him, We did not even hear if the Holy Spirit was come. And he said, To what then were ye baptised? And they said, to the baptism of John. And Paul said, John indeed baptised with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on him that was coming after him, that is, on Jesus. And when they heard that, they were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus". Then Paul reasoned and persuaded concerning the kingdom of God, then separated the disciples and reasoned daily in the school of Tyrannus.

Ques. What does the stone at the well's mouth represent?

J.T. It is representative of the denominations. The sheep are there, the well is there, but there is no water flowing. The flocks are really not watered in the denominations. It is worthy of note that Jacob does not do anything until he sees Rachel. She corresponds with himself.

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Ques. Will you say a word about verse 5?

J.T. It means that christians are known. They are known even in denominations. They are the preserving element there, and you may be sure they are known and marked. "They said, He is well; and behold, there comes Rachel his daughter with the sheep" (verse 6). That is, the evidence is there with her.

Ques. Is that the reason our meetings do not grow more -- we are not sufficiently interested in our relatives in denominations?

J.T. In going into a district you should look around for your relatives. Jacob does. It is the first thing he does. And then he sees something cognate with that -- the well, flocks of sheep, Rachel. One hundred years ago this thing went on; they looked and they found them. The early brethren claimed their relatives and showed their love for them, and they were blessed in doing it.

Feelings must enter into it. It says (verse 11), "And Jacob kissed Rachel, and lifted up his voice and wept". He kissed her as a cousin. The idea of a well occurs frequently through this book, beginning with Hagar. The Holy Spirit is in christendom, but the stone must be rolled away. It is a good idea to invite our relatives to the fellowship meetings.

Every name in Jacob's family has a meaning. Each represents some circumstance of the child's birth. Every christian has a name, too. It is what is potential. In Jacob's house we see what God can do despite adverse conditions; He will bring out the spiritual line. The thought of the numeral twelve runs through the Scriptures. It is seen in the heavenly city; it means nothing is lost. It is flexible, it can be manipulated; it may be divided by six, four, three, two, and by itself. God can work out every intricate problem with that numeral. Every question will be solved in the kingdom.

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Now we come to chapter 37. Joseph here represents the Lord Himself. His brethren could not greet Him with friendliness. What had Joseph done? Nothing, only it says that Israel loved him. If a man is persecuted he will prosper.

Joseph has a dream, and then another, showing that there is no subtraction but addition. Those who hate him are brethren, yet not one is to be lost. The dreams are the test and they bring out the flesh in the brethren; how humbling! and yet in Acts 7 they are called patriarchs.

It says in verse 11, "His father kept the saying". Mary the mother of Jesus "kept all these things in her mind, pondering them in her heart". She was not against Him.

The first dream represents the resurrection of Christ; the second His ascension. There is a suggestion of Christ in Joseph from his birth. Jacob moves after the birth of Joseph. God will always develop conditions for spirituality to become manifested.

In chapter 48 we have the supreme expression of spirituality in Jacob. Every one of his sons is blessed despite apostasy. Yet he does not spare them. The divine thought is to be maintained despite adverse conditions. Even Dan is blessed.

It says in verse 8: "And Israel beheld Joseph's sons, and said, Who are these? And Joseph said to his father, They are my sons, whom God has given me here". They are not mere relatives, as with Rachel, but "my sons". And then Jacob kisses and embraces them. Embracing means power, not only affection. Paul embraced Eutychus. Joseph's bringing them out from his knees would show that they are objects of affection with their father.

Jacob is superior to Joseph in this chapter. This is the only recorded time of failure in Joseph. It comes out in the superior spirituality of Jacob. He was claiming them, and the father would intrude, as

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if to say, 'they belong to me'. Joseph overlooks the patriarchal side. It says (verse 17) "It was evil in his eyes", and this is a most serious thing. We are tested in the presence of superior spirituality. Joseph had never met a greater than he -- think of all his power and authority in Egypt -- yet he resorts to an act of violence. "He took hold of his father's hand to remove it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head". Jacob's hand was the hand of God. Here we are in the presence of the two greatest men on the earth, and Joseph is on the line of nature. God will not brook any interference, so that despite Jacob's natural vision being gone he is acutely sensitive spiritually.

Ques. Would Ephraim suggest the thought that there is something beyond the twelve? You have the twelve apostles, but then Paul is brought in.

J.T. Very good. Isaac likewise fails in his vision. Amos speaks of the high places of Isaac (Amos 7:9). It means being on heavenly ground and yet wanting in the features proper to it; but in Jacob we have a failing man who rises to a high note -- the highest peak in the range of the book. His name is changed; he has been emptied from vessel to vessel.

Ques. What does chapter 48: 22 mean?

J.T. It is the first-born's portion, I think. It is a spiritual allusion, meaning something taken in conflict and given to the first-born, a double portion. It no doubt alludes to what Christ has as First-born.

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HOUSEHOLD OF FAITH LEADING TO THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD AND HIS SERVICE (4)

Exodus 2:1 - 11; Exodus 6:14 - 27

I thought we might go on to Exodus, carrying forward our subject of the household of faith, and see that it is presented more from a ministerial or levitical standpoint in this book. Levites typify the saints as all first-born ones; or as heavenly, as in the book of Joshua; or as ministers or servants -- as in Exodus. They are not a class today. All christians are priests and all are levites. They are here viewed as in service in testimony.

It is worthy of note that in chapter 6: 14 it says: "These are the heads of their fathers' houses", and so on, until you reach Levi; then Levi is pursued to Phinehas in verse 25, and nothing more is said about the tribes, but Moses and Aaron are brought in. That is, the service of the Levites is now emphasised.

As to the ministerial side of the household of faith, Levi includes the priesthood. Joshua 3:3 speaks of "the priests the Levites". But priesthood is more distinctive than leviteship. The priesthood is brought down to five persons: Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar. They represent quality because of their fewness. There were twenty-two thousand Levites, six hundred thousand men of war, but only five priests.

It is important to note the character of the seed from Exodus 2:1. It must be a wholly right seed for the household of faith. The parents are both of Levi. What a wonderful union! This is to be a real family; family feelings exist. Aaron is said to be "the Levite". He represents the whole idea.

In chapter 1: 22 it says: "Then Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, but every daughter ye shall save

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alive". Pharaoh's daughter is not a hostile person; she is different from her father, and nullifies his edict, and we find Jochebed looking after this child as another's. Pharaoh's daughter did not get her compassion from her father; God had prepared her, and we must be able to recognise everything that is different from the world. She is divinely prepared for this service to Moses, indeed she was his saviour.

As to levitical service, sometimes a brother makes money and says, I will retire and serve the saints. But the Levites were numbered from one month. It is a question of beginning early. There is no short cut to levitical service. Each man used of God has a history with God from his beginning. Think how far upstream God went in the preparation of Paul as a vessel, and Timothy "from a child" had "known the sacred letters".

There is no mention of Aaron and Miriam by name until they are old. Miriam is probably ninety years old when she is mentioned in Exodus 15. Both of these had secret history with God. Moses represents the official side; he is a type of Christ, the Mediator. He also represents authority -- the authority of God, which makes way for priesthood, whereas Aaron represents the sympathy and compassions of the Christ. Aaron's family is mentioned, but very little is spoken of Moses' family. Aaron, like the Lord Jesus, has "gracious words". Aaron's speaking turns the children of Israel to look towards the wilderness. "And Moses spoke to Aaron, Say to all the assembly of the children of Israel, Come near into the presence of Jehovah; for he has heard your murmurings. And it came to pass, when Aaron spoke to the whole assembly of the children of Israel, that they turned toward the wilderness, and behold, the glory of Jehovah appeared in the cloud" (Exodus 16:9, 10). The sympathetic touches of Christ would turn you toward the wilderness and the glory appears.

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Then Aaron marries in Judah. This represents the purpose of God with priestly state. Judah brings in royalty -- "a royal priesthood".

The growth of Moses in a ministerial connection is to be noted. In Exodus 2:10 it says, "And when the child was grown;" but in verse 11, "And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out to his brethren and looked on their burdens". The Levite is a burden bearer, especially in Numbers. He is seen as carrying things. One thinks of Christ who bore our burdens. How many burdens there are at the present moment to be carried, what need of levites! But Moses does not bear them yet; that is to come later. He sees the two brothers fighting. That is a sorrow -- not a burden. In Galatia they were biting and devouring one another. These two were not ready for adjustment. Moses asks: "Why art thou smiting thy neighbour?" The man is not only a brother, but a neighbour. Your neighbour is one whom you should certainly not smite; you are to love your neighbour. Moses' levitical instinct leads him to smite the Egyptian, but the one who did wrong in fighting with his brother is depriving himself of a great minister who could help him. How often we do this!

Then it says, "Moses fled from before Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian. And he sat by the well". He had learned his lesson now. The smiting of Egyptians does not make a minister but sitting by the well does. Think of Moses as he made his journey from Egypt to Midian; it is a long distance. Every step of that distance taught him a lesson. He must have said to himself, 'I cannot deliver my brethren by smiting the Egyptians one by one; it would take me all my life'. He learns that it is "not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith Jehovah of hosts". Notice it is the well. Now Moses is truly on levitical lines. The idea of the well in Exodus and Numbers

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helps us. Many depend on other things in service. The idea in a well is fresh resources coming up all the time. Then seven women come to draw water. What will he do now? He does not kill them; he protects them against the shepherds who drove them away. He supports the weak and does the work. He has gained knowledge by reflection. His instincts work out now; he was not told what to do. It is greater to know what to do than to be told. In Numbers 4 the Levites are apportioned their duties.

Another thing to be noted is that Reuel's daughters do not appreciate Moses; they tell their father, "An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds". A levite must be prepared for this -- to serve and get no thanks. Paul says: "Now I shall most gladly spend and be utterly spent for your souls, if even in abundantly loving you I should be less loved" (2 Corinthians 12:15). But Reuel has better thoughts than his daughters, showing that God cares for all Levites. Reuel is with God. God will never leave the Levites uncared for. Verse 21 says, "And Moses consented to remain with the man". It would almost appear that it was against his will. Paul says, "But if against my will" (1 Corinthians 9:17). A Levite is not self-willed; he happily accepts the will of Another. Moses does not stay for Zipporah; he remains "with the man". Think of Moses, the gentleman, the prince, with Reuel. Reuel is a Midianite and Moses is truly a great man. But this young man must now submit to obscurity. He is to be a shepherd. This is rough work for a nobleman, for a man trained in all the wisdom of the Egyptians. But how beautifully he accepts his circumstances. He does not look for a better place; he does not ask for wages. Everything comes from Reuel's side. Moses asks for nothing; he even accepts Zipporah, for it says: "He gave Moses Zipporah his daughter". Then, in chapter 3 it says, "And Moses tended the flock of Jethro his

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father-in-law, the priest of Midian". They are his father-in-law's sheep; he has nothing. But God reveals Himself to him. What compensation! The Levite does not make his own path. The well is his resignation to the will of God. So that when his first son is born, Moses called his name Gershom. He accepts his circumstances; he is away from home.

The next thing to notice is that "he led the flock behind the wilderness, and came to the mountain of God -- to Horeb". He led them in the right direction, to the mountain of God. Notice it is the flock. No true minister will say, 'my flock'. It is Jethro's flock. Then there is the thorn-bush. It represents Moses' own littleness and nothingness, as well as Israel's, and it is not consumed. We must remember that "also our God is a consuming fire". He is many other things, which we know in grace, but He is, also, a consuming fire. This appearance reminds one of the three in Daniel. There was nothing to burn with them; and one "like a son of God" stands with them. There is no disparity -- how wonderful!

Moses is not careless. He took notice not only of the bush but that it was not consumed. Then the voice came to him, "Moses, Moses". The repetition of the name means distinction. Then he is told to loose his sandals from off his feet, for he was standing on holy ground. The sandals refer to personal dignity. In Luke 15 they are put on the feet of the younger brother. It is the dignity that God gives you in His house.

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HOUSEHOLD OF FAITH LEADING TO THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD AND HIS SERVICE (5)

Exodus 4:27 - 31; Ephesians 2:18 - 22; Isaiah 56:1 - 8

The levitical feature of the household of faith becomes the link with the household of God, and this leads to worship. Exodus 4:31 says, "And when they heard that Jehovah had visited the children of Israel, and that he had seen their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped".

Levi is marked by saying to his father and mother, "I see him not" (Deuteronomy 33:9). He took the Lord's side in a crisis. He was not governed by natural feelings or affections. Levi marks the side that links on with God. In Ephesians 2:18 it says, "For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father". This is priestly privilege. "So then ye are no longer strangers and foreigners, but ye are fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God". The link thus is in the levitical element. Isaiah 56 shows how it is maintained practically by those who keep the covenant.

Ques. Was Moses' reticence in approaching the children of Israel (chapter 4) modesty or reserve?

J.T. It is a very serious thing to resist God. Moses protests he cannot speak and God mentions Aaron. If he cannot undertake it alone God is not taken by surprise: He has Aaron in readiness. It says, "And Moses said to Jehovah, Ah Lord! I am not eloquent, neither heretofore nor since thou hast spoken to thy servant, for I am slow of speech", or 'heavy of mouth', "and of a slow tongue. And Jehovah said to him, Who gave man a mouth? or who maketh dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? have not I, Jehovah? And now go, and I will be with thy mouth, and will teach thee what thou shalt say. And he said, Ah Lord! send, I pray thee, by the

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hand of him whom thou wilt send. Then the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well" (Exodus 4:10 - 14). Aaron represents resources known in secret history. However distinguished a servant may be he must remember that God can get along without him, and that He can do it without impoverishing anything. Jehovah does not push Aaron. He merely says, "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother?" Moses would imply an aspersion on God, as if He did not know. Later on he blames God (Numbers 11), so that the seventy are given, but there is no more power, it is distributed. It is only as Moses protests that God brings on Aaron. It brings out what is in our hearts -- that we are not slow to cast aspersions on God. The sequel shows what a speaker Moses became. In Deuteronomy 31:30 it says, "And Moses spoke in the ears of the whole congregation of Israel the words of this song, until their conclusion". There is nothing in this song to indicate that he is slow of speech and of a slow tongue. Paul says, "I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision". It is a serious thing to resist when God is urging. Mary did not resist in Luke 1:38; she said, "Be it to me according to thy word". It is solemn to reflect that Moses never got back the power he lost in Numbers 11.

In connection with service, we must take account of the way the Lord indicates our movements. According to Matthew, you go to Galilee for your material for a sermon. But in Luke you get it at "that hour;" it comes down. Matthew suggests that things are to be strenuous. You not only preach, but make disciples of all the nations. This requires what is strenuous on your part, and patience too, but as you apply yourself Christ is sure to meet you. But the scripture in Luke reads: "Do ye remain in the city till ye be clothed with power from

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on high". That is, you do not move. This is what I find. You go and get your thought from the Lord, but when you stand up to minister what you have slips away from you ofttimes, and you depend on what comes in as you are on your feet. As it says in Acts 2:4, "As the Spirit gave to them to speak forth".

Ques. Will you say something of Aaron, who comes into evidence at this point?

J.T. Well, he is "thy brother". "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother?" A brother is born for adversity. Aaron is there for a crisis; and he is "the Levite". Jehovah is the first to use the word, and Aaron the first to be so regarded. Jehovah says, "I know that he can speak well". God had heard him speaking many times, no doubt in prayer, for the first speaking of a man to God should be the speaking of prayer, as it says of Paul, "Behold, he is praying".

Aaron is eighty-three here, and he kisses Moses. What a felicitous meeting! God would bring the brethren together. Notice that each moves; Aaron moves, and Moses moves, and they meet at the mount of God, where there are infinite resources. We never love people we do not respect. In Romans 16, which begins with the commendation of Phoebe, the word "salute" occurs over twenty times. A salutation is a token of respect. Paul had never been in Rome up to this time, so far as we know, but he generally says something good of those saluted.

Ques. How does the "holy kiss" work out today?

J.T. We take it up in the spirit of it. Our intercourse is on holy lines. The holy kiss goes beyond feet-washing. There is no thought of any brother whom we cannot greet with a holy kiss. They had coteries at Corinth, yet Paul in his first epistle says, "Salute one another with a holy kiss" (1 Corinthians 16:20). It is a kiss in contrast with the kiss of Judas; it is normal christianity.

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Ques. What is the force of the mountain of God in Exodus 4:27?

J.T. It is a place of divine resources; as in Genesis 22:14 "On the mount of Jehovah will be provided".

Ques. What is the import of verses 24 and 25?

J.T. It means there must be the rigid refusal of the flesh in levitical service, in the family. God's anger against Moses goes even so far as slaying him. God can brook nothing in us which is inconsistent with Himself.

Verses 27 and 28 give a beautiful picture of unity in those in the lead in service, and this is most important. "And Jehovah said to Aaron, Go into the wilderness to meet Moses. And he went, and met him on the mountain of God, and kissed him. And Moses told Aaron all the words of Jehovah who had sent him, and all the signs that he had commanded him". It means that if you have something from the Lord, give it to the saints, and you will get more. He gave him "all the words" and "all the signs;" nothing is kept back. If we keep things back we will not have the confidence of our brethren. We must be transparent. The signs were given in verses 2 - 8 of this chapter. How solemn to think of the power of Satan; and of what is possible in the breast -- what I am capable of. Yet the one is displaced by the power of God, and the leprosy is replaced by purity. It represents God's power to deal with both Satan and sin.

In verses 29 - 31 it says, "And Moses and Aaron went and gathered all the elders of the children of Israel; and Aaron spoke all the words that Jehovah had spoken to Moses, and did the signs before the eyes of the people. And the people believed. And when they heard that Jehovah had visited the children of Israel, and that he had seen their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped". That was

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just as God intended. The seal of any levitical service is that it brings about worship in the saints.

The link in worship leads to the house of God. It says in Exodus 15:1, "Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song to Jehovah", and in verse 20, "And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took the tambour in her hand, and all the women went out after her with tambours and with dances". This is the line on which we enter from the household of faith into the household of God pleasingly. We are there as those who know how to be there and serve there. The view in Exodus is that all sons should be free to serve God in the house intelligently. "Let my son go, that he may serve me" (Exodus 4:23). This in chapter 4: 31 is anticipative. They are not yet out of the land of bondage, with burdens well nigh crushing them and still unremoved, and yet they worship. What powerful levitical service!

The scripture read in Ephesians 2 links on with Exodus. It is priestly. "For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father". We are brought in as priests by Christ Himself. All three divine Persons are active in verse 18. The "both" means Jew and gentile.

Ques. What is the difference between 'house' and 'household'?

J.T. The household brings God in actively; it is more than the house. He is there familywise. This is an advance on the household of faith; we are brought into God's household. Divine Persons are active in the sphere in which we are. We could not be here today, with any profit, on any other principle. The household of God indicates finality although it is provisional down here. It is not an eternal thought, but involves all there is for us.

Ques. What is the idea of fellow-citizens?

J.T. It is a national thought; we belong to heaven. It is the priestly element which qualifies us

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for access to God. Many are in the household of faith; they attend readings, preachings, and so on, but the household of God requires a heart and nearness.

Now we come to Isaiah 56:1, 2. "Thus saith Jehovah: Keep ye judgment and do righteousness; for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that holdeth fast to it; that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil". It is not here the Levite, but the "man" and the "son of man", and it is in connection with keeping the covenant. Are we upright enough to keep the covenant of God? There is an obligation attaching to us. The sabbath is mentioned first in Exodus 16:23. "This is what Jehovah has said: To-morrow is the rest, the holy sabbath, of Jehovah". It is mentioned also in Exodus 31, attached to the building of the tabernacle, where God says He was refreshed when He had finished His work. The sabbath is the great thought of Israel. If you add up the time in connection with sabbath keeping for the people, lands, cattle, and so on, you will find that almost one-third of their time was taken up in this manner. The fear is that God does not get much out of His people; other things and other interests occupy so much of our time.

God's covenant with Abraham was not dual; but with Israel His covenant was dual. They said, "All that Jehovah has said will we do". It was thus ratified. Our committal is in the Supper. It corresponds with the sabbath. It is a challenge if we mean what we are doing. The 'if' is on our side. So God says, "Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that holdeth fast to it; that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. And let not the son of the alien, that hath joined himself to Jehovah, speak saying, Jehovah hath entirely separated me

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from his people; neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree; for thus saith Jehovah: Unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and hold fast to my covenant, even unto them will I give in my house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. Also the sons of the alien, that join themselves to Jehovah, to minister unto him and to love the name of Jehovah, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and holdeth fast to my covenant; even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all the peoples. The Lord Jehovah, who gathereth the outcasts of Israel, saith; Yet will I gather others to him, with those of his that are gathered". How wonderful it is, and it all hinges on our acceptance of our responsibility. There is a striking relation between the Lord's supper and the sabbath. Does everyone understand that it is a committal, and a committal that God holds us to? The privileges of the house are committed to us on that ground. The sabbath is the sign of the first covenant, and, taking fifty years as a basis, it will be found from the passages in Leviticus which concern sabbath-keeping that about one-third of the year was taken up in this way. One is not to be distracted, but to be for God, in sabbath conditions. For us it is the first day of the week, not the last day. You do not begin the Lord's day by physical rest merely but by spiritual restfulness. And I would put the question to each, Do fifty-two breakings of bread dominate your whole year? The Lord's supper should dominate the whole week. It is disgraceful that one should come to the Lord's supper and never be seen during the rest of the week.

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The Lord's supper is at the entrance of the tent of meeting; by the Spirit we enter. I may eat it and not approach, for the approach is by the Spirit. God is inside, so to say.

In Exodus 31 there is the thought of refreshment to God. How delighted He was as He contemplated all these things! -- the tent of meeting, the ark of the testimony, the mercy-seat and all the utensils of the tent -- all speaking of Christ!

Ques. What is keeping judgment in Isaiah 56:1?

J.T. We need this verse for our care meetings. There is so much sluggishness. In matters relative to the saints in a local gathering, we want to do justice. Our care meetings must be characterised by keeping judgment and doing righteousness. There is no moral housekeeping without a care meeting. There is no salvation as spoken of in verse 1 if things are allowed to drag.

Ques. Is that why there are still many meetings without sufficient spiritual energy to have a Bible reading on Lord's day afternoon?

J.T. I think the most auspicious time for a reading is on the Lord's day. It is like the hill country in Luke. It was not meaningless that God chose that terrain on which are located Jerusalem, Hebron and Bethlehem. The average height is 2,700 feet, and Hebron is 3,000 feet above sea level. I think the Lord is helping us in regard of our sluggishness.

Rem. We should not be sluggish. We will have a thousand years to rest, as it says, "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God".

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GOD'S ORDERING AND THE RECONCILIATION OF THE BRETHREN

Numbers 2:1 - 9; Acts 2:14 - 16; Genesis 33:1 - 7

I am thinking of what God presents in approach to men, and the order in which He presents it. This necessarily involves His will in regard to that which He presents, and it is what is available as under His hand. As thus under His hand, it is pliable, capable of being distributed according to His will, capable of manipulation in that skilful and loving hand of His. This applies to every one of those whom He has secured through the gospel, so that no one has a choice; all is being worked out according to the sovereign and wise will of God.

For instance, a man having a legion of demons comes out of the city in nakedness. The Lord casts out the demons and the man is found sitting, clothed and sensible, at the feet of Jesus. That is what meets the eye of those who come out to see him. They request the Lord to depart from them, and the man wishes to go with Him. I might say it is what I would wish too. I would not only wish to be in His company always, but I have no desire to stay where He is refused, and where, moreover, I would be alone, surrounded by haters of Christ. But despite this, you are to stay. There is no meeting there, no believers as companions, but you are to stay. "Return to thine house and relate how great things God has done for thee" (Luke 8:39). Someone says, Well, this man will perish! No support, no sympathy, a lone man in a place marked as one of ten cities, Decapolis. But no, "Return to thine house". The Lord makes no mistakes. It is on this principle that the testimony is extended. The position of each is to be determined by the Lord; He will

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take care of the consequences. This man occupied an outpost in the field; to move away would be to disarrange the Lord's ordering, to defeat it. Then there is the case of the eunuch. It says that he went on his way rejoicing; there is not a word about going back. So that, dear brethren, if the Lord has located us here or there, our wisdom is to accept His disposition, which is according to His perfect knowledge of us. To leave or to move elsewhere because of poverty is contrary to His purpose and casts aspersion on His wisdom.

The Lord makes disposition of His forces even in the garden. How touching this is! He moves to a certain point with the eleven, then further on with the three, and then He Himself goes a stone's cast beyond. All is done in the ordering of perfect wisdom, despite all that He was about to endure. It is thus quite evident that our movements must depend on His.

In connection with the first scripture I read, I would call your attention to the disposition of what God has in His hand at the outset. Here it is typical of the public position at Pentecost. It is not a broken state of things. Christianity started not with broken things but in perfection, and our scripture in Numbers 2 teaches us what this is. It is governed by the numeral twelve. God has long been working with this number. It dates back to the days of Jacob in Genesis 29 and 30. God has had all this under His eye in the centuries that have elapsed since the tribes left Egypt, since they suffered under Pharaoh and came out victoriously. And now they are under God's hand. Each individual is seen pitching by his father's house. It is a family matter, and the whole is divided into four sections of three tribes each. It is not a broken front, but a united one as under His hand. There are Judah and his two toward the sun-rising, Reuben and his two southward, Ephraim

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and his two on the west, and Dan and his two in the north, all surrounding the dwelling-place of God. The Levites are in a more intimate position, as in the midst of the camps (Numbers 2:17). Moses and Aaron and his sons are seen at the door of the tent of meeting, keeping the charge, and Jehovah is inside, so to say.

Now I wish to point out that the position occupied by the tribes outside corresponds to the position inside, that is, as they are seen on the breastplate of Aaron. They are there in four rows of three, on the breastplate of the high priest. How far christianity has departed from this! How beautiful to see God dwelling in the midst of an ordered camp whereas today we see every man doing that which is right in his own eyes! That is the outside position. And then to realise that on the inside each has a place in the heart of Christ which corresponds to his position as surrounding the tabernacle. How secure each one is, as having a place inside on the heart of the High Priest.

Suppose one of the camp of Judah were to arise at night and look out. What does he see? He sees a pillar of fire over the tabernacle. How restful he must be at such a sight! And then God looks out, and what does He see? Each tribe in his appointed place, and how restful He is! It is beautiful. God rests in that love. He rests in the evidence of His love in us as each abides in his place. Well, that is the position in the wilderness, and it determines our position now.

I have read from Acts 2 because I believe that passage governs active ministry. We see Peter here standing up with the eleven. One may say, Why cannot I go out and preach when I like and where I like? But Peter did not; he stood up with the eleven. There was more in those eleven for God than in all others in the universe. No angel in heaven could compare with those men. They had been with Jesus all the time that He "came in and went out

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among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day that he was taken up from us". They had thus got all the benefit of the Lord's discipline, all His corrections, all His rebukes. He had said to Peter and his brother, "I will make you fishers of men". God made His angels spirits, but not for a special work. Here is one made for a special work. A master may make rough work, or he may make a refined vessel as He did Peter.

One feature seen in the apostles is that they knew what to do without being told. Peter stands up with the eleven, and lifts up his voice, and speaks to the Jews. The twelve here set forth the great principle governing ministry. It is a question of God's ordering. Peter had many converts that day, but they did not confine their questions to Peter. Christianity was never meant to be a one-man affair. It recognises one Man in heaven, even Christ our Head, but never one man down here. What we recognise is every God-given gift.

What I have specially before me is in Genesis, as in keeping with what the Lord has stressed during this conference, that is, the reconciliation of brethren. It is a great feature of latter-day ministry; indeed gospel addresses, as well as the ministry of the Lord's servants in general, are addressed to those already in relation with God, and He does not seem to bless much outside of that. So that ministry today must have in view the recovery of brethren. I hope to show from this passage how that ministry may be carried on successfully.

Genesis 32 and 33 are taken up with an offended brother. How many there are! Estranged for one reason or another. Here in Genesis the breach is twenty years old. And now Jacob is coming back from Padan after twenty years of estrangement from his brother. At Padan he probably thought of his wives and his flocks and so on, but not of his

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estranged brother. And now he has to meet Esau. We too will have to meet our estranged brother, if not now, then later. We shall all meet up there.

So Jacob sends a message to Esau. He says, "Thus shall ye speak to my lord, to Esau: Thy servant Jacob speaks thus -- With Laban have I sojourned and tarried until now; and I have oxen, and asses, sheep, and bondmen, and bondwomen; and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find favour in thine eyes". Listen to how he speaks to an offended brother! Is that going to gain Esau? 'I have got wealth now; I am a man of importance; I am different now, Esau!' Will that gain him? No! It will create jealousy and envy. It is like telling your estranged brother, 'I am getting on in the truth now; I have many converts; we never had better meetings, and so on'. That will not help. The messengers return to Jacob, and what do they say? Has Jacob found favour in his lord's eyes as he wished? The answer is, "He also is coming to meet thee, and four hundred men with him". Jacob understood perfectly; this is not love, it is war; they may be soldiers. "Then Jacob was greatly afraid, and was distressed; and he divided the people that were with him, and the sheep and the cattle and the camels, into two troops". What a sorry state between two brothers! But now he has recourse to God. He tells God he is afraid of his brother. "And he lodged there that night". The next day he sets apart droves of cattle. What are they for? They are gifts for his brother. That thought came to him in the night. I suppose the Lord Jesus said many times, "It is more blessed to give than to receive". And then he sends the droves on, one after the other, and he remains there another night. "And the gift went over before him; and he himself lodged that night in the camp". But that night he says, as it were, Maybe the gifts will not appease Esau! So he arose

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and disposed of his family, his two wives, his maid-servants, and his sons, and led them over the ford of the Jabbok, and over the river. "And Jacob remained alone". What a moment! But it is not long, for God has His eye on him. Then God says, as it were, I see your concern, Jacob; it is not Esau, is a question between your soul and Me. Dear brethren, it is this every time. This must be settled, "and a man wrestled with him until the rising of the dawn". With Esau he thought he could settle things at a distance, but that will never do. Estranged brethren are not reconciled at a distance. Jacob had thought of the face of Esau, but he gets a good look into the face of God. And God says, as it were, I see, Jacob, you are really seeking to be reconciled to your brother. Now I will let you overcome Me; if you can overcome Me, you can overcome Esau. So Jacob acquires power with God. "And he said, Let me go, for the dawn ariseth. And he said, I will not let thee go except thou bless me. And he said to him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall not henceforth be called Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast wrestled with God, and with men, and hast prevailed".

He sees God face to face. The face of God is the face of Jesus now, and it is not beyond us. Then God says, as it were, You cannot meet Esau on natural lines; you must be crippled. So He touches the joint of Jacob's thigh and dislocates it. Then Jacob passes over Peniel as the sun rises, limping on his hip. And he lifts up his eyes and looks, and behold, Esau is coming with four hundred men. What a sight meets Esau's eyes! What a change in Jacob. These changes are necessary, dear brethren. Paul tells the Corinthians that "We all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit" (2 Corinthians 3:18).

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There is no change in Esau until he sees the change in Jacob.

Then Jacob begins to set out his family. "And he distributed the children to Leah, and to Rachel, and to the two maidservants: and he put the maidservants and their children foremost, and Leah and her children after, and Rachel and Joseph hindmost". He is full of the family thought. How much better one can love in a household setting than in an office at a desk, for instance. It is a question of environment. And now Jacob begins to discriminate, because room must be made for Christ. So that as the family draw near to Esau, the order of verse 2 is reversed from Rachel and Joseph to Joseph and Rachel (verse 7), meaning that Christ is coming into evidence as seen in Joseph. He takes precedence over his mother now, and that settles the matter.

See Jacob limping along. He has passed on before them all. Esau would be saying, What has happened? You are not as you used to be; you are changed. Yes! Crippling has had its effect. Esau is still the brother, though we cannot carry that too far because of subsequent history.

Now the family bows. Christ has a place there; room has been made for Him, and He takes precedence Himself.

I feel the great mission of the moment is to seek out our brethren, not on their terms but on the Lord's. He is about to secure us all for Himself, by archangel's voice and trump of God. But before that time He wishes to recover all of us now, to holy, happy fellowship in the Spirit. May the Lord bless the word!

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THE DIVINE IDEA OF A CITY, ITS MAINTENANCE AND ITS FUNCTIONS

Ruth 3:15: 4: 1; Acts 9:6, 10 - 12; 2 Samuel 15:24 - 37

I have in mind, dear brethren, to occupy you with the idea of a city as presented in Scripture, hoping to suggest something applicable, and perhaps distinctive, so that the divine thought may be better understood and carried into effect by us in these days of small things in which we are. But however small the things may be that are current, no divine thought is to be small to us, or allowed to lapse; all is to be held in a living way. You will remember when the Lord in the book of Revelation had spoken and shown Himself to John, that, as John fell at His feet as one dead, the Lord touched him, saying, "I am ... the living One" (Revelation 1:17). That is what He was, that is what He would be, what He had shown Himself to be as He arose from the dead. According to Luke's account He had shown Himself unto them living (Acts 1:3), and He had not ceased to be that. Whatever decay had taken place in the assembly -- and, alas, decay had set in -- there would be no change in Christ. He was still the living One, and He touched John, which is a suggestion of what is needful in remnant times, the touch of the living One. He laid His right hand upon John, meaning that not only was He living, but His strength remained and was available, so that John should carry out his service accordingly. He was to carry it out not only as a mere seer -- although he was that, and was to write the things that he had seen, and the things that are and the things that should be afterwards -- but the spirit of life was to enter into his writing. John makes much of writing. The fourth gospel is his, as we know, the great theme being life; and his first epistle also deals with life, and so throughout his earlier writings, they are all in

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relation to life. It is as if the Lord were to say, 'There must be no flagging; the ministry must go on in a living way; whatever the state of the saints, the state of the minister must be that he is living;' and we know by reading those wonderful chapters in the Apocalypse what vigour and life there is in the writer, and how he appeals in relation to the water of life. What a volume, too, there is! There is no slackening of the thought in relation to the river that flows out from the throne of God, clear as crystal, "the river of water of life", fructifying all that is around.

So the Lord would encourage us in regard of every thought of God; nothing should be dormant among us, although we may be at times at a loss to know how to make the thoughts living; but things are only living practically as they are held by the Spirit in our hearts and minds. We may be at a loss at times to make every thought practically living; but as we wait on the Lord He supports us so that no thought should be dormant, or dead; and certainly not the thought of a city. That is to go forward. We all know how it comes in in Revelation; we are never tired of referring to the marvellous presentation of it in chapter 21. How stimulating it is! and how it should reflect backwards so as to stimulate us in our day in regard of the divine thought; for certainly the presentation of it there is in order that we might see that it has not lapsed in the mind of God. It is one of the great thoughts of God, presented from the outset of faith, and looked for by faith.

I read from Ruth to show how the thought of the city appears there in what I might call the creating of royalty; for the city thought necessarily attaches to royalty. There is "The city of the great King" (Matthew 5:35); that is the idea; and what we get here in Boaz gives us the clue to what there was in Bethlehem, this great Bethlehemite, Boaz, the

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mighty man of wealth, the sure type of Christ, as Ruth came into his view expressing her claim. The Lord loves to have His people coming forward and asserting their claims, their relation to Him. If there are those here who have not done it, nothing will please the Lord better than that you should come forward and assert your claim before Him. As a believer you have a claim upon Him; He has placed Himself in such a position as to suggest that to us, not only in becoming Man, but in His manner and in His ways. He is in truth a Man, with all the sympathies of a Man, ready to acknowledge every claim put forth, and to meet it. The grace of Boaz encourages Ruth, and as governed by the wise instruction of her mother-in-law she pursues a certain course which involves a claim on Boaz, which claim he owns at once. The Lord will never put you off. Nothing pleases Him better, I am bold to say, than that His people should come forward in the assertion of any claim they may think they have on Him. He has placed Himself in relation to us to incite such a thought in our hearts, that we have a claim on Him. As becoming Man He stands related to us, not in any merely human way, for His humanity is unique; it is not like ours. It is altogether of its own kind, but nevertheless real humanity, so that He is within the range of all men, but especially now of those who, as believers, may have some little thought of the assembly -- of their having part in it.

So that Boaz accepted the suggestion of Ruth at once, and that is why I called attention when reading the scripture to the changed pronoun, pointing out that it ought to be 'he', instead of 'she' as in the Authorised Version. The meaning is plain enough, that while it is true that she also went into the city, the point is that he went into the city. That is, her claim suggested to him a great matter, not only her matter, but a great matter, that is, the question of

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redemption. We do well to go over the ground of redemption, and if there be any claim put forward on the Lord as our Redeemer, the One who has a right (for it is a question of right) the Lord will go over the whole ground with us. There is constant need that the Lord should go over the whole ground of one phase of the truth after another, and every time He does it we get something distinctive. It is no question of one meeting being better than another, but is there anything distinctive? Is there anything that is needed? Is there anything that the Lord has called attention to? If there be something that we have been neglecting, or have not perceived, then there is profit, definite gain as we go over the matter. And so Boaz went into the city as if making it a great matter. It may be a small matter in our eyes, but it is not so in the Lord's, for everything must stand in relation to the whole scheme or system of truth. If He is to meet the obligation put upon Him, so to speak, He must go into the city, the great centre where all things are resolved, where the light and the authority and the administration are carried out. He goes into the city. Sure enough, Naomi had suggested this to Ruth. After she had told her mother-in-law what had occurred Naomi said that the man would not rest until he saw the matter through; neither will the Lord rest. He proceeds at once, but He proceeds according to His own methods, which are always best. We had better, having suggested what is needed, leave matters with Him, and He will take our little affairs and bring them into His great affairs, and He will work them out in relation to His great affairs. So that Boaz goes into the city and sits in the gate, the gate being, of course, a place of publicity. It was a public place, but it was the place where things happened. How great a thing it is, beloved brethren, to be where divine things are happening, where they are likely to

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happen, and where they do happen! Many of us miss much because we do not frequent the place of divine happenings. Others get the gain of them, and we miss it because of our slothfulness. As has often been remarked, Anna did not miss anything; she was in the place of divine happenings. "There was a man in Jerusalem", we are told in Luke 2:25, meaning that that was his place. He was a spiritual man and at the very centre of things, and Anna came in when the great happening was proceeding; she did not miss anything. We never can tell in the assembly, when the saints are together, what may happen, what the Lord may do or say; hence how imperative it is to be there in the place of happenings, and especially royal happenings.

So Boaz sat in the gate and took up this matter. You are all conversant, no doubt, with the teaching of the history given in chapters 1 and 2, not only with the things that happened, but with what was required to meet the position. The obligation put on Boaz was carried out not only as in the city, but in relation to Israel. The way of doing things is called attention to, that is, the allusion is to the spiritual way of doing things: "This was the custom in ... Israel" (Ruth 4:7). I have no doubt, dear brethren, that the answer to all this in chapters 3 and 4 may be worked out in the gospels in relation first to Israel and then to the assembly. They both were in view in the closing moments of the Lord's life when He sent His disciples into the city to prepare the passover. It was a great matter. We do well to ponder the facts presented, as to what came into the Lord's mind, as I might say, the passover speaking of His relation to Israel which He was now foregoing, for He would not again partake of the fruit of the vine until He should drink it in a new way in the kingdom of His Father. But there was that before His eyes which was becoming everything to Him, that is, the

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assembly; and hence the deliberation with which everything was done, especially as recorded in Luke's gospel. It is really the Lord going to the city, literally, of course, Jerusalem, but more than that; He had already around Him an order of things, and had already inaugurated the system where henceforth all these thoughts, and the light of God, and the administration of God, should issue. We should bear all this in mind in pondering the records of the institution of the Lord's supper. The Lord impresses us with His carefulness (not that He was not always careful) that there should be preparation, and that there should be no cause for misunderstanding afterwards. The taking on of the right of redemption, and the obligation, and all that went with redemption -- that is, in relation to Israel and the assembly, now that the assembly was coming into view -- made it imperative that the disciples should realise what was taking place, that there should be no mistake, but that it should be perfectly clear what was in the Lord's mind. So as in the case of Boaz who went and sat in the gate, the Lord acted with the greatest deliberation. There was no question yet of the assembly as in Corinth, for there is no evidence of any sisters being present. It was a question of testimony, a question of Israel's custom; it was a question of everything being carried out according to God, and that the Lord's rights in redemption should be indisputable, that no question should be raised as to them; and to this end He was ready to accept humiliation. Doubtless the drawing off of the shoe as in the case of Boaz implies that the Lord had to accept humiliation, which He did, and went into the dust of death in order to establish His redemptive rights in relation to whomsoever they applied, and especially to ourselves now.

I would speak, dear brethren, of the royal aspect of the city, how the germ of it was there in the upper

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room; and so as the Lord went up to heaven, as you will remember in Acts 1, the disciples returned from the mount of Olives to the city and went to the upper room; and we are told who were there. We are not left in any doubt as to the ability of those present to maintain the city thought. The names of the eleven apostles and others are given, guaranteeing without a doubt that the true city of God was already there, and that things were being carried out according to the Lord's mind concerning them in His absence.

Now, what I have said about the Lord's supper and what was in the upper room in Jerusalem requires careful consideration so that we might see how the thought of the city was there, and how it worked out in the succeeding chapters in Acts. But it waned, and it has continued to wane until well-nigh lost; although a little revival has taken place as depicted typically in the days of Nehemiah. We cannot, however, but be sensible of its smallness; and in Acts 9 we see how the Lord would check or repair whatever damage had accrued through carelessness. It is not Jerusalem now, nor are the apostles there, but the Lord had in His mind that the city in the true sense of the word should exist. That, dear brethren, is where special attention is needed, because the Lord has left us here so that we might help our brethren, and be ready to serve them. That is to say, the particular business of those who love the Lord at the present time is to help our brethren, so many of whom need help. So the Lord has one in Acts 9 in Saul, and He directs him to go into the city. Now, it is not accidental that the word 'city' is used, for you can understand that the Lord does not simply mean that Saul was to go inside the walls; He has more than that in mind. The Lord has in His mind the great thought of the city which He has inaugurated in the twelve; and now, as it was

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waning in Damascus and doubtless at Jerusalem too, He would make repairs; for it is one great feature of divine operations that the vessels engaged in the divine work should not misrepresent what is being done. Ananias was not equal to the great service needed, and I have no doubt, dear brethren, that this applies generally today, that the service of helping our brethren is but poorly carried out, and for the reason that the city is not understood in a living way. So the Lord makes repairs. He is the "Repairer of the breaches". Who can do it like Him? We can turn to Him with the greatest confidence as to all our local sorrows, and they are many, alas. Local eruptions are frequent, and there is no hope save as we can bring the Lord in; He is ready to come in. No one asked Him to do so in this case, but He actually came into Damascus Himself; He sent Saul in, but He came in too, not to set the city itself right, not to help the mayor and the aldermen to keep order (it is not the Lord who does those things but God as the sovereign Ruler of heaven and earth) but the Lord Jesus came in as occupied with the city in a spiritual way, putting matters right in that sense. Ananias was a man evidently having a certain position as a leader; he is said to be pious, having a good report of the Jews; but although there may be leaders in localities that are pious and have a very good report, they may be very remiss in regard of such a matter, and the service and urgency needed, that is, to know how to meet a brother. It is a part of the city service. So the Lord goes to Ananias; He speaks to him, calling him by name. The Lord is watching over our little gatherings in the cities, towns, villages and hamlets in which we may be, and He is concerned that the city principle should not lapse, however small and weak things are, in order that the thing should be livingly maintained. So the Lord goes to Ananias and puts him right,

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and Ananias goes to Saul. The Lord even knew the name of the street where Saul was, as He knows every street in the cities, towns and villages where the saints are, and it was a street called Straight. I have no doubt that is a street the Lord would call attention to, for there is a, great deal of crookedness among us; not that I am accusing the brethren, but it is well to face the actual conditions today. No doubt economic conditions have been the immediate cause of the present situation, but there is a moral cause, and if we are with God we think of these things. "Our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29), and if the Lord calls attention to a street called Straight, that is what is in His mind, that things have to be straight. So Ananias goes to Saul; but how rapidly and how effectively was his administration carried out; and how rapidly this brother Saul, this elect vessel unto Christ, came to maturity and preached Jesus as the Son of God!

Now that is one side; that is the second thought I had in mind. The first great thought of the city is that brought in by the Lord in Jerusalem in view of His death, showing us that things were all there fully attested; nothing lapsed or was omitted of all that was made known in the way of testimony, and it was all furnished in the upper room in Acts 1. Then Acts 9 shows how the Lord is repairing the breaches, and seeing to it that our service in caring for the brethren should not be impaired, that the thought of the city should not lapse, but be maintained in its dignity. If we are concerned as to this we shall not be citizens according to the minds of men; indeed, the city of God is our deliverance from the cities of this world. It is a very solemn matter. It says in Revelation 16:19, "The cities of the nations fell", great as they are; but in this one all is to make room for this great thought of God which is to be treasured. The very thought of it, as it takes form

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in any little way in us, is delightful to heaven, and the Lord is ever ready to repair the breaches so that things might be done according to His mind.

I want to show in the last scripture how this great thought is maintained not only in our localities, but in a general way, so that the city thought is maintained in the very presence of the apostasy. This is a great problem, and a great matter; and this scripture that deals with it is one of the most interesting sections of Scripture, certainly in this connection. Absalom had revolted, and Israel with him, and he was approaching Jerusalem, just as today the apostasy is heading up and almost engulfing everything and yet not everything, for after all -- and I say it with great triumph -- there is that here on earth, although obscure, which it cannot touch, and which means the overthrow of it all, the complete negation of the whole matter, and which will itself grow and grow till at last it will come out and fill the universe. These things of which I have been speaking and which we go on with in our localities, will be presently unveiled (they are veiled now) and they will fill the universe in the heavenly city.

I now want to show just briefly how this is seen in this remarkable type. David, as you will observe, is in rejection. He is leaving the city; that is to say, applying it today, the Lord in a moral sense is rejected; really He has no place in christendom viewed as a whole. That is the position. What He had in the first of Acts and indeed right through Acts no longer exists publicly; He is already rejected in christendom as a whole. This has gone on for centuries, and David's position is a type of the Lord's, but what he says to Zadok and then to Hushai and the sequel to that show how the victory is certain. That is, there is that here that means the overthrow of the apostate religious state of things, and what I want to say, dear brethren, is that it is a mystery

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belonging to believers; I mean ourselves. We need to understand the idea of a mystery, and not to be too ready to talk of things. Of course, it is right to enlighten people as to the gospel; that can ever be presented; there is no veil connected with the presentation of the grace of God; but there is a danger in presenting other things. There is the mystery of the gospel (Ephesians 6:19); and then there is "the mystery of the kingdom of God" (Mark 4:11). The thought of mystery is a thing very little understood among us, and less practised; because if I have the thought of the mystery of the gospel, I begin to make it mysterious; I begin to show that I treasure things in my mind and ponder them in my heart, that I am not willing to tell people about all that is going on in private; for unless we keep the mystery to ourselves there is no hope of carrying out the thought of the city, and the overthrow of Absalom's system, which is already overthrown in the hearts of believers. Presently God will overthrow the whole system in keeping with what we cherish, for it says, "God has judged your judgment upon her" (Revelation 18:20). That is what He does, and no one could do it but God; "in one hour" (verse 19) will her judgment come; and she will be judged, as it says, according to our judgment. You see how great the position is. So David says to Zadok, "Carry back the ark of God into the city". That has to be viewed abstractly; that is, the Lord is taking the city, meaning that no true follower, no lover of Christ, no one who keeps His commandments, can be sectarian, can be a partisan (which involves the denial of all this); the ark must be held in relation to the whole city, the whole assembly. "Carry back the ark of God into the city". It requires faith to do it, to regard that which the ark means as the symbol of divine power in operation, to see to it that that should be held in our souls in relation to the whole assembly, in relation

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to every saint of God on earth, so that we are not sectarian, but have the ark set up and held in that way in our minds.

Then, that being accomplished (for Zadok carried out the king's commandment), David "went up by the ascent of the Olives" (verse 30). It is a beautiful thought. There is the descent and the ascent; this is the ascent. We shall never know how to descend unless we know how to ascend the mount of Olives. The ascending one is the descending one. David ascended the mountain in a beautiful spirit, and worshipped on the top of it, and then Hushai comes into view, and mark the kind of man he was. He represents a great spiritual element; he is spoken of as a friend of David. What a privilege it is to be in the position of a friend in these circumstances -- David's friend! "Hushai David's friend came into the city" (verse 37), the precursor of the overthrow of Absalom. That one man, the friend of David, is the guarantee that Absalom would not prevail. What a thing it is to be a friend of Christ! and He requires friends who will be loyal to Him, and if loyal to Christ, they will be loyal to one another. So that Hushai is reminded by David that in the city was the ark, and Zadok and Abiathar and their sons; that is, there was a secret system, unknown to Absalom, set up in the very midst of the city that spelt his overthrow.

Much more could be said about this, but time is gone; but I do urge this friendship to Christ. He says, "Ye are my friends if ye practise whatever I command you" (John 15:14). It is "whatever". Let us not make our selection as to what commandments we are going to practise. It is "whatever I command you". Hushai did exactly what David commanded, and he was eminently successful. It is "whatever I command you". Are we prepared to say that it is of no importance at all, that it is a

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matter not worth mentioning? Is that so? "I praise you", says Paul, "that in all things ye are mindful of me; and that as I have directed you, ye keep the directions" (1 Corinthians 11:2). It is "whatever I command you". Success lies in adhering strictly, not only to a selection of the commandments, but to whatsoever is commanded; and, moreover, as Paul says, we shall discern, if we are spiritual, that they are the Lord's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Although spoken through Paul's lips, they were the Lord's commandments. As being able to discern them by their own characteristics through whomsoever the Lord's mind is disclosed, we embrace them, not only because of the person who may speak but because of the thing itself. That is indeed how the canon of Scripture began to exist; it had its own authority. It is no question of the rule of synod or church council; it is a question of what the Scriptures are themselves to those who love the Lord. And so it is "whatever I command you" -- whatever comes out today, whatever the Lord calls attention to; it carries its own weight; and lovers of Christ discern it, having moved on in that way. As in the case of Hushai they see victory after victory, the power of antichrist broken, and souls brought in, into the fellowship of God's Son, into the fellowship of His death, and into the fellowship of the Spirit.

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THE SAINTS AS HEAVENLY

Exodus 24:9 - 11; Exodus 25:1 - 9, 40; Numbers 15:37 - 41; Exodus 1:21

J.T. What is in view is that we might look at the heavenly side of our position. God in taking us up from the outset had this in view, laying the basis of it in our souls in His initial operations. So that in Exodus 1, the houses built for these women would have a distinctiveness that made them different. They would be different from the Egyptian houses. The principle of being different is worked out in the New Testament, the Lord Himself setting it out on the mount of transfiguration, for He became different (Luke 9:29). And in the houses of these midwives we may see a principle as to our own houses.

Then in chapter 24 we see Moses and Aaron, and Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel going up, and they see what is up there. And then in the next chapter we have the request on the part of Jehovah that they should build Him a sanctuary, which we know from the New Testament was a figure, a representation of the things in the heavens (Hebrews 9:23). So that we see set forth in type in this sanctuary what is up there; hence the injunction recorded that it should be according to the pattern shown in the mount, shown above, not simply the pattern shown, but the one shown up there.

Then in Numbers 15 the tassels were to be on the corners of their garments, attached to which was to be a lace of blue, the lace of blue also reminding us of what is above, what is heavenly brought down into our circumstances. The tassels were to be on the corners of their garments, that is to say, as we turn round in our life of responsibility down here there is a testimony to the heavenly colour, a testimony that we are different. In taking us up God began to lay

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the basis of the heavenly in our souls, and we are taken up out of one place in view of another. So that the teaching is one from the beginning, and the babes in Christ are to have the same kind of teaching as the fathers and they are taught by the same persons. The apostle John taught the fathers, the young men and the little children, and the spiritual thought as to the heavenly character of our calling is to be laid in the soul from the beginning. Only a spiritual man can do that. The teaching is to be one whole, hence this thought of the houses, a very familiar thought from the beginning. As children were born to the people of Israel there were those that cared for them and by these midwives Jehovah saved them in spite of the injunction of the king. So that it says that God made them houses, and these houses would be a standing testimony to His thought for His people in an adverse world.

J.S. What disastrous results there were from Jacob stopping at Succoth and building a house there prior to getting to Bethel where you get the true idea of a house from God's house.

J.T. Yes, that is the greatest idea of a house. The houses which He made for these women bring His thought down to the level of our understanding. There is nothing said about the material out of which they were made, but there was attaching to them the idea that God made them. God teaches us by introducing suggestions and impressions as to what is in His mind, but He looks for observation on our side and moral results in us.

Rem. It says, "because they feared God".

J.T. They feared Him; that is important.

J.T-y. There is value in young life, God takes account of them, and saves the male children alive.

J.T. Any of these boys as they grew up and entered these houses would enquire who the architect was, and the women would have to say, God. God is the

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Architect of the universe. So He makes the universe for a purpose, and He made the houses of these women for a purpose, and He would make them with suitable material. These young boys would never become Egyptian in their thoughts, for they would learn what is superior in a moral sense to what is Egyptian and to what is worldly. Although they were in Egypt where there were houses, the idea conveyed in one of these houses of the midwives would be different from the idea set out in the pattern of Pharaoh's house.

W.S. They moved under the hand of God, not under the hand of Pharaoh; they did not fear Pharaoh.

J.T. In the world, of course, the social world, all the ideas come down from the palace, that is the principle of the social world such as in this country. These women were detached from that, if they were ever attached to it; they were attached to another centre. They feared God and His thoughts would be in their mind to this extent, not yet to the extent that we have in chapter 5. One would not stress the thought too much; it is just an element in the education of the saints, how God teaches us morally. If He builds a house, it is to be looked at and considered as to the kind of house it is; it is sure to be different from all other houses.

Ques. Is their fearing God a move on their side and then the houses referred to God's coming in as you suggest?

J.T. Exactly, their action was to fear God and preserve the children, which is a great matter. God gives recognition to persons who watch over the young.

Ques. Is it like wisdom's house in Proverbs 9?

J.T. We have instructions about believer's houses in Deuteronomy in order that there may be no loss of life caused by want of thought, nothing that would

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mislead another, nothing that would be a stumbling block to another in our houses.

Rem. While the house itself would be a testimony, the moral influence in it would likewise be a testimony.

J.T. We may be sure that there was nothing wanting in these houses to make them what was needed. God would leave nothing out, but He would not conform in any respect to the Egyptian design.

P.L. Would such houses have their windows like the ark of Noah?

J.T. By and by in the world to come when death is removed, the windows will be all round. Solomon's great house, called the house of the forest, had rows of windows affording plenty of opportunity to see out. But in the ark when death was upon all, it was a question of looking up, not looking out. As in the case of Eutychus, it was a dangerous thing to look out.

Ques. Would the houses be the place where there was light as in the houses of Israel (Exodus 10:23)?

J.T. That is the idea. Israel had light in their dwellings. The light in the home would suggest that the light was there searching them out, not simply that the light was there complacently, as you might say.

Ques. Will you please say a word as to the sapphire?

J.T. It was under the feet of Jehovah. It is a question now of God, what is under His feet and what was going to be under His feet. He was going to walk with Israel in the wilderness in a tent without any flooring. The idea morally is that every place where His feet stood in the wilderness was hallowed so that the dust of the floor of the tabernacle was used. Every spot where the tabernacle was placed was hallowed, the place of the soles of His feet, the very dust was hallowed. The houses of Israel being places of light suggest the moral side.

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L.D.M. The book opens with the sons of Israel. Is it that these great moral features are to be worked out familywise?

J.T. Yes, the book opens in that definite way. The great family thought stands out at the very outset, involving the recognition of parental authority. So that the sons of Israel are specifically mentioned and you can see the spiritual import of that. Pharaoh would destroy the males but the Lord would preserve them, and these women who were used to that end are honoured.

P.L. Is it something akin to Lois, the preservation of young life?

J.T. You are speaking of the mother and grandmother of Timothy?

P.L. Yes, there was an Egyptian suggestion in his father being a Greek.

J.T. Showing how faith operates in spite of the conditions, a principle that runs through Scripture. We get running through the principle of God's activities in spite of conditions, or we may say the activities because of conditions, because faith is at work. It is seen specially in women and wives where the husbands are not very spiritual. But faith operates and they are carried through and God supports it, like He did with Rebecca. It was her faith, and the divine thought is carried through in spite of the father. Isaac wanted it otherwise. And so with these two women Paul honours, what a fine result there was in Timothy on account of faith operating, in spite of the fact that his father is said to be a Greek.

Genesis is the great patriarchal book, and Exodus is to show how the paternal thought runs through in the children, and runs through in spite of difficulties, the king of the land doing all he could to destroy the males. How is the thing to be carried through? Exodus is a book of exploits in face of difficulties.

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L.D.M. "Every son that is born". God was bearing in mind the thought of continuance.

J.T. You can see that the position of these women was very difficult, but they acted notwithstanding the difficulties as not fearing the wrath of the king.

W.S. Is Moses himself the result of the faithfulness of the midwives?

J.T. His mother hid him and his sister also came into it. Then as if God would augment this He brings in Pharaoh's daughter to help, and she takes on Moses and becomes his saviour. God works with faith. When we face the difficulties, however great they may be, God will work with us and enable us to overcome them.

Ques. Is it important that the generation is being preserved?

J.T. They are called sons, which is very suggestive. "These are the names of the sons of Israel who had come into Egypt; with Jacob had they come, each with his household" (Exodus 1:1). The patriarchal thought is in Jacob, each one with his household. Each one had a household and they brought them along. That is the great thought in the beginning and Satan would overthrow that. These midwives are just persons in a difficult position and in spite of the difficulties they overcame them and God honours them.

Rem. These influences are for the preservation of life.

J.T. Yes, especially the sons. So that when Moses was grown, not simply when he was a man, but when he was grown, the idea is carried on; he has grown and become a man. Adam did not grow, there is no evidence that he grew, he was made a man. When Moses was grown he went out to see his brethren and so forth. Now he is the great product of all this.

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Ques. Would the growing suggest the work of God?

J.T. That is the idea. He has grown under these circumstances and the result is perfect so far. He regarded the people of Israel as his brethren, although they were slaves. He did not look down upon them as a prince, seeing them as slaves; he chose to suffer affliction with the people of God accepting the reproach of Egypt. They were slaves, or as it is said, Hebrews, and he was ostensibly a child of the princess.

Ques. Do you regard the midwives as special features in the assembly caring for the interests of God and for the preservation of life on the line of faithful men?

J.T. I think so. It is to bring out how faith operates in difficulties, one of the greatest lessons we have to learn. We cannot hope to evade difficulties; this book is to teach us how to go through.

Ques. Would the order of Herod in Matthew's gospel be in keeping with this?

J.T. A very good comparison, Matthew is very like Exodus, it is a question of the assembly, what is being built. We have an excellent example in Joseph: he was a righteous man in a difficult situation, but he came through, God working with him. It is always the way, God works with faith in the presence of difficulties. So that the Child is preserved. The Lord Jesus is called a Child in chapter 2 of Matthew's gospel, He is taken away into Egypt and then brought back, then He is called a Son.

J.W.H. What is the principle for us today in the Lord building these houses for these women who feared Him?

J.T. To show how He provides an answer to faith, how He would mark them off, they would be marked by their houses. No one in Israel had houses like theirs, they would certainly be very special houses

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and if anyone enquired of them they would say, God built those houses. I have to learn something from those houses, God has not built them merely to shelter these women. He intends to convey something in them; they are His own handiwork.

J.W.H. There would be the exclusion of every Egyptian principle.

P.L. Is this preservation of life in contrast to the Egyptians; they would preserve mummies and so on?

J.T. Yes, relic makers. You would never have heard of anyone looking for relics in these houses. They are not there; these houses do not belong to Egypt, they were brought in for a testimony. God brought in something better in these houses than would be found in the houses the Egyptians built. These houses are not ruins, and they do not belong to Egypt. They are houses that can be brought into the testimony.

Rem. "I will receive you ... and ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty" (2 Corinthians 6:17, 18).

J.T. You feel how fitting that word would be in relation to those houses, faithfulness in difficult circumstances. We shall never have anything else but difficulties, as the apostle says, "Difficult times shall be there" (2 Timothy 3:1), and they have come.

J.S. Will you say a word as to the shittim wood and the various things mentioned in chapter 25?

J.T. All the things spoken of in chapter 25 really have a spiritual beginning here. It is a question of love to God worked out in ourselves and seen in these various features. Things are carried through.

J.S. What is the thought of chapter 24 coming in before this?

J.T. To bring in the great accession of wealth. The greatest source of wealth is the covenant. In Romans righteousness is upon us but then love is in

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the heart. All this material implies that it is a heart matter. Love is in the heart and God has put it there by the Spirit. That is what is meant in chapter 24. I think it is like Romans 5. In Romans 3 we have a righteousness provided that makes us suitable for God; we are before Him in righteousness, but we need wealth as well, and the Holy Spirit puts it into our hearts as seen in Romans 5. I believe that is what we get in Exodus 24, that is, the covenant, the faithfulness of the love of God towards us. God commends His love. God is so concerned that His love should be in our hearts that He commends it to us. God's love comes into our hearts, but our love towards Him is seen in Romans 8 and that is material for the tabernacle, for His dwelling.

J.S. Is that why the blood is spoken of in Exodus 24?

J.T. And then the going up to see what is up there, because we cannot be down here as a dwelling-place for God without understanding what is up there. We have the testimony of what is in heaven and we are said to be built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit (Ephesians 2:22).

Rem. I was rather struck with your reference to the covenant in the light of wealth: could you say a word or two in connection with Noah's covenant in that light?

J.T. We are speaking of the new covenant now. The Lord's supper carries it through to us, it involved wealth. You do not get the princely thought so much in Exodus. When you come to 1 Chronicles the wealth is more royal, you get the princes brought in; it is another side to bring out the greatness of the persons who have access up there. Here it is more what God is Himself up there. It says, "They saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were work of transparent sapphire, and as it were the form of heaven for clearness. And on

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the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: they saw God, and ate and drank".

Rem. You were speaking just now of the dust of the tabernacle.

J.T. I was alluding to the fact that there was no flooring in the tabernacle; there was in the temple. The very dust, the very wilderness itself, was the flooring. God was pleased to place His feet there. The place was hallowed. The very dust put into the water caused "the bitter water that bringeth the curse" (Numbers 5:18). Sin had to be discovered in the unfaithfulness of the woman to her husband. The dust that was on the floor of the tabernacle was taken and put into the water. The dust of that part of the tabernacle was different because of the presence of God.

J.S. Will you say a word as to the God of Israel and what was under His feet?

J.T. It is what He was accustomed to up there and alludes to His love in coming down. It was a sacrifice to God to come down and walk with them and be with them, to have the wilderness to walk in.

Ques. Do you get the thought in the incarnation, the Lord walking in this thorny world?

J.T. In Exodus the dew fell round the camp (Exodus 16:13), but in Numbers 11:9 it fell on the camp. It really refers to the people, the dew fell on the people; that is, it falls on us, the grace of heaven affects us, that we receive the manna here.

When you come to Exodus 25 the material is suggested, the kind of material that is used and the specification of the ark, the length and breadth and height. As far as I know we do not get formally the length and breadth of the tabernacle given to us. The tabernacle is to be learnt by the size of its parts; it occupies us with one whole in the various parts. The things are so valuable, they all suggest something spiritual and help us to arrive at the full thought.

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With the temple you get the breadth and length and height given.

Moses was on the mount, the mountain of Jehovah. The mountain is always in view, for things are up there where they belong. In christendom things are brought down to man's level: the mountain is left out and it is a question of man's level and man's architecture. Moses was shown the pattern on the mount and he made all things according to that pattern.

Ques. What is the thought of eating and drinking in chapter 24?

J.T. They continued their life up there. God shows how considerate He is for them under these circumstances. The Lord ate and drank before the apostles to show them that He was a real Man. He only could use what we call meat and drink, the fish and the bread, in His new condition. We shall not eat fish in heaven, we shall be in a new condition. The Lord came down to the level of the apostles to show that His humanity was so real that He could eat fish. The eating and drinking here is more than that and is connected with what is above.

W.S. It says they saw God. In what state did they see God?

J.T. In some way He showed Himself to them; it is left open. Chapter 12 of Numbers shows that Moses had to do with God more than did any other man. It is inscrutable; no one can penetrate and say what it is.

Ques. Would they see God in the covenant? It is not a question of seeing Deity.

J.T. What can we say? We are taught of God. We cannot force God to say what He does not say. He says enough to teach us; we are in the presence of the inscrutable, and yet they saw something. In this chapter the Person is speaking and the people are responding. It is the covenant here, the grace side.

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Ques. Does the substance of this heave offering, the gold and the silver and the other things, suggest the glory of the Lord?

J.T. They had seen the glory of the Lord, what God is, now shining for us in the face of Jesus Christ. The saints thus become the material as bringing in the features of Christ. "But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory" (2 Corinthians 3:18). That is the material.

Ques. Does chapter 25 as coming in after the 24th indicate that God is counting that the wealth is there?

J.T. That is the idea, every man whose heart prompts him. With David it was more himself and the princes, more the royal side. Here it is every man.

Ques. Would you give us your thought as to purpose? Are these scenes on the mount connected with the purpose of God?

J.T. It is Christ, but seen in that setting above, not what He was down here, although it shone out here. It is like the mount of transfiguration -- a figure, a representation of things in the heavens. So that the pattern would denote that; man has nothing to do with it, it is outside his range.

Rem. In every feature of the tabernacle some feature of Christ would be seen.

J.T. Yes, but Christ in heaven. Paul said, "We henceforth know no one according to flesh; but if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer" (2 Corinthians 5:16). It is another state and condition now. That is the idea of the wealth here, the features of what is above brought in, heaven upon earth.

Ques. Would the variety of things here have any relation to the variety of ways in which the Lord is spoken of in Revelation, the number of titles accredited to Him, and the way in which He is described?

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J.T. These different materials are varied features of Christ worked out in us because they come out of our hearts. "This is the heave-offering that ye shall take of them" -- gold, that is, what is for God; silver and copper, elements of redemption and judgment; blue is heavenly; purple is royal; scarlet is earthly glory; and byssus, indicating fineness and beauty; goat's hair is separation; rams' skins denote protectiveness and dyed red would mean that they are different; badgers' skins speak of the exclusion of evil; oil for the light, and so on; all these things are just varied features of Christ worked out in us.

Ques. Would they mark the local company?

J.T. If there is to be an assembly according to God we must look for these things. These features ought to enter into every local gathering; they are what God looks for. They have to be looked into to see what they mean. It is not simply so many believers, but these varied features of Christ are seen, and can only be seen by the power of the Spirit working in us.

Rem. So you would get the idea of the Christ in the heart.

J.S. Would you say that suffering comes into the purple colour? In Mark they clothed the Lord with purple.

J.T. I think when purple is alluded to it is a royal colour, but that is seen now in suffering. "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him;" they inscribed on the cross, "The King of the Jews". I think scarlet is earthly glory, it is put into the fire with the hyssop. Purple is a mixture in colouring which I think would be heavenly and earthly combined, a mixture which involved suffering. It was put over the altar, "If we suffer, we shall also reign". Suffering is the answer to it now.

Ques. Will you say a word as to Nadab and Abihu and the seventy elders?

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J.T. They would stand for full representation, Moses and these two and seventy of the elders.

Ques. Is there any difference between the God of Israel in chapter 24 and the God whose glory Moses asked to see in chapter 33?

J.T. They saw the God of Israel, we cannot say what they saw, we cannot define it. But the glory referred to in chapter 33 would suggest the full shining out of God, although that could not be seen until Christ became Man. He was the glory of God and we see that glory now in the face of Jesus.

Just a word as to Numbers. It is the full thought of the heavenly as seen in the saints in their circumstances here. So there are to be tassels on the corners of our garments throughout our generations, and then the injunction that we attach to the tassel of the corners a lace of blue, which I think means that as we turn round the corner, maybe on the Monday after the Lord's day, we do not lose the heavenly blue; we are not one thing on Sunday and another thing on Monday, we are heavenly on both days.

Ques. Would you say that what met Moses when he came to the bottom of the mount in Exodus 32 corresponds somewhat to what we might meet on Monday?

J.T. Well, you come into contrary scenes, something that might irritate you on Monday. You leave your house and instead of going to the meeting you go into a cold atmosphere. The idea is that you retain the heavenly spirit, it is on the corners of your garment.

Rem. So that a difference would be seen.

J.T. Yes, you do not drop down to man's level, you maintain the heavenly colour, the dignity that is proper to the saints. Then it goes on "And that ye seek not after the lusts of your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye go a whoring; that ye may

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remember and do all my commandments". That is the principle, you do not lower the standard. "I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt to be your God: I am Jehovah your God".

Rem. Things are worked out during the week, would you say, the fringe and the tassels being what is worked out?

J.T. They are on the corners, they are distinctive. Then besides these tassels you have the lace of blue, which is a fine piece of work and can be easily torn off. If you have a quarrel with a man that will all go. You retain the blue, this fineness denoted in the lace of blue.

Rem. What would govern us in our circumstances? Would what we have on the Lord's day maintain us through the week?

J.T. Yes, it is worked out in the finest lace, this fine work, it is ornamental.

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THE MINISTER AND HIS TRAINING

Exodus 2:15; Exodus 3:1 - 6, 10 - 12; Exodus 4:1 - 7, 16, 17, 27 - 31

The book of Exodus is calculated to instruct us in regard to the ministry, and how ministry makes for the establishment of what is of God down here. Moses represents this ministry in the early statements as to him in this book. We are in days when the Lord is calling for more service, and if the service is to be effectual, the servant must be disciplined and formed in experience with God. There will then be results, as we see in the case of Moses. The sign to Moses that he was sent is stated in verse 12 of chapter 3, "Ye shall serve God upon this mountain". The mount has in view the service of God, a service not to be carried on in any independent place, but in the place appointed by God. The result is that the people as having this testimony are said to have believed, to have heard, and to have worshipped (Exodus 4:31).

We begin in this book with an active man educated by the world, but now persecuted on account of his having identified himself with the people of God. He is of no value now in the world, and as having fled from Egypt he sits by "the well". In the verse referred to in chapter 2 it is the well instead of his own efforts; he now recognises the well, the power that springs up, the Spirit, the only means of effective service for God. If service is taken up, there is discipline connected with it and Moses is now in the school of God. Moses had status when in Egypt, now he is an outcast. He is learning early and is acquiring experience and substance as the result of discipline, and typically he recognises he has no power but in the Spirit. By faith he left Egypt, we are told in Hebrews 11:27, not fearing the wrath of the king; but he feared God, and things happened according to the divine calendar. He is now sitting by the well

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in humble recognition of what the well is. He could have stood in the wisdom of men, for Stephen says in Acts 7:22, that he was instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, but now he has the invisible God before him. God tells Moses that all the men who sought his life are dead (chapter 4: 19), for God watches over these things, although He does not act at once. Moses had to wait forty years in Midian, a strange land, and he had his discipline there. The apostle Paul says in effect, as speaking of his discipline, 'It is against my will', for it involves suffering. If a brother renounces the flesh, the Lord soon gives him something to do. So we are told in the following verses that Moses rose and helped the daughters of the priest of Midian as they came to water their father's flock (chapter 2: 17); he was not long looking for something to do for the Lord soon opens up a door of service. The flock is not far away if you are with God. Moses was by the well, waiting by the well, a fixed position, and he has to learn that power is of God. It says of him in Deuteronomy 34:7, according to the marginal reading, that his 'moisture' was not abated; the moisture is there even to old age, suggesting the freshness and energy the Spirit gives. The Lord sitting by the well at Sychar may be referred to by way of contrast; for it is said that the Lord was weary. Service has to go on in spite of weariness; the water of this world fails, and man as such thirsts again, but the Spirit of God in the believer is to the end that he may never thirst, for the excellency of the power must be of God.

We are all conscious that we are tested by those services which are nearest to us, but Moses rises to the occasion here and helps the women. He thus represents every one of us as having received gifts, but there are also those who have been given specified gifts. It is a question of service appointed by God, and these services become effective as we are qualified

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by divine teaching. Later we are told (chapter 7: 1) that Moses was to be God to Pharaoh, for he was to be representative of God. An officer in the army represents the king. Moses was not to be a god, but to represent God. "We are ambassadors therefore for Christ" Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:20. Moses' commission is in chapter 3. He is to have an impression of God at the outset for it is a question of what the servant has, and he is to know that the power for everything is in the Spirit. When you come to know the Lord and He brings you out by committal, you say with Paul, "What wilt thou have me to do?" The word to him was to go into a certain city; the brethren there would lay their hands upon him and the brethren have to lay their hands on you. The impression you get is that the Lord is coming in in some way in your soul. Caleb and Joshua brought back an impression in their hearts of what was there in the land. The germ of everything in the gospel should be there, that is to say, in our hearts, but it should be seen in the person who presents it. So that it is not a question merely of what I say but of what I am.

After Midian we have Horeb -- a remarkable thing -- and Moses comes to Horeb forty years after he had sat by the well. In the meantime, he has been content to serve his father-in-law, and when things are just as you wish them naturally you are not with God. Moses, it says, was content to dwell with the man, but now God brings him to Horeb, the mount of God, where he is to get the material for the service God had in mind for him. Things began with his sitting by the well; then there are women looking after their father's flocks; then his service to his father-in-law; and now he is at Horeb where God would have him. In verse 2 God appears as the angel of Jehovah in the burning bush, and in verse 4 we are told that the Lord saw that Moses turned

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aside to see; then in the next section we get the great idea, God speaking as God. It may be said on occasions that God is there because of the character of the ministry, as it says in 1 Corinthians 14:25, God is indeed amongst you, and the angel here represented God Himself. Heaven takes account of a right exercise of soul, and God waits to see how we regard matters -- Moses turned aside to see. Paul was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, and here we have a man who turns aside to see; that is a brother turning to the Lord about a matter. The bush suggests what is insignificant, for God came into humble circumstances. He was amongst them in the wilderness, yet they were not consumed. A christian who turns aside to see is a great object of interest to heaven. The Lord said, "Saul, Saul", "Samuel, Samuel". What impressions Moses may have had earlier were brought out and deepened here, for he exclaims, "Let me now turn aside and see this great sight!" What struck him was that the bush was not burned up. One may say, we had a good word, but an account of it cannot be given, for they have not turned aside to see. God now says to Moses, I will send you to Pharaoh. God is calling him now. You get an impression if you are sent out. "As the Father sent me forth, I also send you" (John 20:21). Paul said, "I went into Arabia" (Galatians 1:17), a place for him of instruction. So you can see that the mount of Jehovah is a principle, that is what Moses begins with here, for God does not send His servants at their own expense. No one need ever be short in substance, either as regards service or as to state; there is abundance of supply. Matthew is full of Galilee; it is a question of reproach. The true believer accepts that for he has his resources elsewhere. He faces the people of the world, with power representative of God, for God is the God of resurrection. Moses took off his sandals, for sandals are

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status; you have none of your own. As sons we do not take off our shoes, for the Levite is truly a priest, one of the sons of Aaron. "Ye shall serve God upon this mountain" (Exodus 3:12) is a principle which, if accepted, would break up christendom. We soon have some indications that our service is effective, and from the first day onwards the great principles set out for us, in service are not surrendered, the sign being that the service is to be carried to where God would have it. "Thou hast guided them by thy strength unto the abode of thy holiness" (Exodus 15:13). In Ephesians the whole work is in view. The work of our hands must go on in the place on the mount, but we must wait for His work. Mount Zion suggests what is permanent; mount Horeb is the place of resort.

In chapter 4: 2, God calls attention to the rod in the hand of Moses. This, cast down, became a serpent and Moses fled from before it. If God in His governmental ways relinquishes any one of us, we come under the hand of the enemy. So the apostle says, "I buffet my body" (1 Corinthians 9:27). That is a word that should affect our consciences as reminding us of what we are capable of. The most spiritual is liable to give way to the flesh, so we keep our bodies in subjection, thus making way for the spirit of a brother to come into our midst. Aaron was glad in his heart to meet Moses, we are told in verse 14, glad to make room for his brother, like Peter and John. If you have more gift than another you are pretty sure to have rivals, but the brother modifies all this for a brother is greater than gift. In the mount of God there are plenty of resources. So Moses and Aaron gathered all the children of Israel, and when they had seen the signs they bowed their heads and worshipped (verse 31). Moses had the word from the Lord but he gave the word to Aaron. Words came out through Aaron; he can speak well. That is not

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mere eloquence; he speaks in affection for when he met Moses he kissed him, being glad in his heart. The Lord's ear was open morning by morning and what wondrous speaking was the result. Moses was speaking in unbelief when he said he could not speak, but the word was made acceptable in the brother.

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THE BROTHERHOOD ACCORDING TO GOD

1 John 14 - 16; Genesis 27:26 - 29, 38 - 40; Genesis 36:31; Genesis 37:3; Genesis 44:33, 34; Genesis 45:1, 2 (first clause), 14, 15

The verses I read in John's epistle call attention to the brethren, and how we know that we have passed from death to life because we love them; and, moreover, that as love has been shown in that He, that is Christ, laid down His life for us, we should lay down our lives for the brethren. These verses form the basis of what I have to say. I have in mind that we should have a clear understanding of the persons referred to, those who are to be loved to the extent that we should lay down our lives for them. It is a right enquiry, Who are they? Whence are they? Where are they? Whither are they bound? If they are so important as to deserve such love, firstly, on the part of God in Christ, and, secondly, on the part of each christian, they surely deserve the most careful consideration and enquiry, so that we may be sure as to them, who they are and whence they are, what they are and where they are, whither they are bound, and what is their outlook. This epistle treats of its subjects radically, I may say, abstractly, and I have read the passages in Genesis so as to develop, by the help of the Spirit, the answer to these questions. The Lord enquired as to what men said about Him, as to who they said He was, and to this enquiry there was an answer forthcoming by revelation through Peter. But this answer was also confirmed by the teaching of Scripture, for revelation by God, whether in great or small measure, must always be in keeping with Scripture, Scripture being one whole! Every part of the divine unfolding agrees with all the other parts, and is confirmed, too, by the others; so that the announcement of

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Peter that the Lord was "the Christ, the Son of the living God" was fully in keeping with Scripture. So what John alludes to here, implying a very great family or set of persons supremely great, must find confirmation in Scripture; and the book of Genesis is peculiarly calculated to answer the questions I have mentioned. Jacob represents the family viewed as the brotherhood. That is, his history as a whole, notwithstanding deviations and shortcomings, sets out the state of brotherhood according to God. Whereas Esau's history, taken as a whole, represents a state of brotherhood that is the mere profession of brotherhood, which is not according to God, although he had the place of brother, and was blessed, too, in that relation. The two lines are marked off strikingly in these two men, and by the Spirit's help I hope in the first place to delineate briefly the features of brotherhood which are not according to God.

I remarked that Esau was blessed in that relation, and I allude to Hebrews 11:20 which says, "Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come". He blessed them both. The allusion spiritually, I apprehend, is to the profession of christianity in both cases, both the blessing of Jacob, which comes first, and the blessing of Esau. It is important, I think, to the understanding of the subject to bear these brief remarks in mind. An examination and a comparison of the two blessings will reveal the accuracy of what I remark, that Isaac represents Christ as the heavenly man, and that the blessing is very profuse, and, in a certain sense, indiscriminate. It is, of course, based on professed belief, but, in result, while blessing was accorded from heaven at Pentecost on the principle of faith in those who received it, yet in due course many came into it who did not have faith, but had the position of brethren in an outward way. There are many today who are in that position; they are blessed

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unquestionably, and although the accompanying evidences of the family are not there, they are nevertheless blessed. They are delivered from the darkness of heathendom; they are in the light of the revelation of God outwardly, involving "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19). This is of immense moment, and is in keeping with the profuse grace, the abundant grace, of this dispensation. All is in keeping with the wonderful patience of God, to the end that He might be known and that what He is might continue to shine here, notwithstanding the very mixed results; such results, indeed, that the genuine is almost obscured by the unreal, although the genuine exists, as I hope to show.

You will see by comparison that Jacob secured his blessing on the principle of faith, though in discreditable circumstances; but he secured the blessing, and it is marked by gift, his father saying as he drew near, and as he kissed his son, "The smell of my son is as the smell of a field which Jehovah hath blessed". That is, a subjective state is indicated. There was a work, as we call it, subjectively. The smell of a blessed field alludes not to what is superficial, but to what is potentially rich, and which will bear the fruits desired; that is, the brotherhood according to God. The smell was there, which by the Spirit, as we may say, Isaac smelt; and the blessing to Jacob is on the principle of gift according to what God is. As the Lord Jesus says, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand" (John 3:35). He gives not the Spirit by measure unto Him. Things are on the principle of gift, and in abundance. Then the Lord proceeds in John 4:10 to speak of "the gift of God". Things are on the principle of gift. Genesis 27:28 is the gift; then verse 29 suggests an administrative position: "Let peoples serve thee, And races bow down to thee. Be lord

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over thy brethren, And let thy mother's sons bow down to thee. Cursed be they that curse thee, And blessed be they that bless thee". I touch on that so that we may see the contrast, as I wish to proceed to delineate briefly the false brotherhood set forth in Esau which has its counterpart, beloved, today. I am not speaking of persons as such, or unchristianising any, but it is a question of character, whether it be in a real christian, or in one who is an unbeliever. It is the same thing and it is a question as to what assumes to be the brotherhood, but is not that which is in accord with the divine thought.

What we find with the blessing of Esau is that he is said to have his dwelling "of the fatness of the earth, And of the dew of heaven from above". That is the simple statement of the fact that Esau would have a rich place as a dwelling, which is abundantly answered to in the position that all nominal christians have at the present time. Their dwelling is not in heathendom; it is in the very fatness of the earth, where the Spirit of God is, where the light of heaven shines from the face of Jesus, and where the Holy Spirit operates among the saints. They have that place outwardly. It is further stated: "By thy sword shalt thou live, And thou shalt serve thy brother; And it shall come to pass when thou rovest about, That thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck". This verse has also a remarkable counterpart at the present time in the general brotherhood. There was respect at the outset for divine ordering and sovereign choice represented in Jacob, so that Jacob ruled and the brotherly element according to God prevailed, but not for long. So it says, "When thou rovest about, Thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck". That is the history of christendom. Although at the outset the brotherly element according to God prevailed, in time there was a

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breaking loose from divine settings and orderings, and independent movements came into evidence, suggested by the rendering, "When thou rovest about". 'Dominion', indeed, has been acquired; and so we have the vast hierarchy of christendom today, professing to be a brotherhood. It is, however, but the result of a roving about, of independency, so that the yoke of Jacob as representing the true brotherhood has been broken, and Esau prevails outwardly.

To my mind, dear brethren, these are very evident facts as entering into our own dispensation. It is true Esau is said to be blessed, -- and he was blessed; indeed it is a blessing that anyone should be in the area where the light of God shines, and the light of heaven shines; where, too, the dew of heaven comes down, and where is the fatness of the earth. That is a blessing to anyone. Then, on the other hand, we see the independency, that which is natural, showing itself. "When thou rovest about" began to show itself when men took it into their minds in the history of christianity to do as they willed, to rove about, cutting themselves loose from divine orderings and limitations, giving up, as we may say, "the commandments of the Lord", (1 Corinthians 14:37). They broke away, as it says, "Thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck;" and it continues.

As we proceed we find that Esau hated Jacob, and determined to kill him. He was appeased, for the Spirit of God makes every allowance for Edom, assuming him to be a brother right up to the time when the children of Israel were on the very borders of Canaan hundreds of years later. God is loth, dear brethren, to give up any of His people, even though their profession may not be deep. He maintained the brotherhood of Esau as valid. I want you to note that point, the length of time the brotherhood is valid in the mind of God. It was valid in Esau's case right up to the period when Israel was about to enter

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Canaan. Deuteronomy makes a particular provision for the validity of Esau's brotherhood; and I speak thus so that everybody here may understand that there is nothing arbitrary about God. In everything He is marked by patience and the utmost consideration. So that anyone present here who may be in the position of a brother, and who may have failed in the spirit of a brother, is to be encouraged to see that God recognises the validity of your brotherhood, until you renounce it, until you show by some overt act that you are not at all a brother, that, indeed, you are devoid of the spirit of a brother. So Esau is recognised; in Deuteronomy, he is even allowed a part in the congregation of the Lord. Deuteronomy 23:7 enjoins that an Edomite is to be respected, "for he is thy brother". Every provision is made for him: Israel is not to molest his territory, or to interfere with him; he is to pass by him peaceably, which he did. But when you come to the prophets, when the history is lengthened out, dear brethren, the sad fact comes to light that Esau in truth never was a brother. That is to say, the unbrotherly element was there, and though God bore with him for centuries and recognised his validity, giving him every opportunity to recover himself, the time came when God began to use by his prophets the severest terms, the severest denunciations with regard to Edom. A whole prophet's book, Obadiah, is devoted to the judgment of Edom, so great a place has the unbrotherly element in the divine mind. The Spirit of God speaks about his unrelenting hatred of his brother, his "perpetual hatred" (Ezekiel 35:5), and it became an abomination to God. Now you understand, dear brethren, that I am not speaking of any person or persons, but I am speaking of the thing that is so delineated in Scripture, beginning at such a source as this, a source indeed which outwardly found a place in the blessing of God, until it should so

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culminate, until we are told by the last prophet in the Bible, that is Malachi, that God loved Jacob and hated Esau. We are not told that until then. The patience of God is seen in that, before He would pronounce upon the element that was abominable to Him, He waited until the last prophet, Malachi, and then He says, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau" (Malachi 1:2, 3). He might have said it in Genesis 27, for He knew full well what was there; but God awaits developments before He announces His judgments. He is slow to anger, and gives abundant opportunity for recovery, beloved; as the Lord Jesus says, "I gave her space to repent" (Revelation 2:21). Edom committed itself finally to perpetual hatred, and is to be blotted out for ever. So we see it working out in the Herods of the New Testament, who were Edomites; and we read of one of them in Acts 12, that he was eaten of worms, after having put to death James, the brother of John, and having been minded to put Peter to death also. That is a very sorrowful arraignment, dear brethren, but I am simply giving you the teaching of Scripture with regard to Edom, and as to the bearing of God's thought of the repudiation of the false brotherhood.

We see from chapter 36 how this element represented in the Edomite brotherhood, moved. We have, indeed, the dukes of Edom given there; they are mentioned simply as an item, as necessary to the history of the testimony: "These are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom before there reigned a king over the children of Israel". That is the idea: "I will be king" (1 Kings 1:5). That element cannot wait. Whether it is in a christian or not, if it is found among the brethren, the people of God, that element must be king. It will not defer the idea of reigning if it can prevent it. That element was found at Corinth, as you will remember; they reigned as kings, but Paul says, "Reigned without

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us" (1 Corinthians 4:8); that is, they reigned before the true brethren reigned. The true brotherhood according to God is not in a hurry to reign; they accept the time of suffering first. "If we suffer, we shall also reign" (2 Timothy 2:12). There is no such thought as that with Edom; it is a question of reigning. So it says, "These ... reigned in the land of Edom before there reigned a king over ... Israel". There is a great point for us in this, dear brethren. One knows it is in one's own heart; if one's natural aspirations are not kept in the place of self-judgment there will be a desire to rule, to take a leading place, to be dominant, to be first. That is what is meant. Esau could not wait; he must be king; he must have his dukes and his kings before any king reigned in Israel. The king who is to reign in Israel is to wait for hundreds of years. The thought is deferred, and Israel waits until its David arrives -- in truth, until Christ arrives, for He is the King. That is the idea. It is not the one who says, "I will be king". No, it is the one who is humbly taking care of his father's sheep, without any aspirations, who in love tends the flock -- that is the one, the king after God's own heart. But Esau could not wait. So one has to challenge one's own heart as to whether one is aspiring to dominance among the people of God, or whether one is content to suffer, and not to reign without Paul -- indeed, it would be reigning without Christ in a sense, because He is still rejected in this world. He is still the Outcast in this world; but who that loves Him would desire to be anything else but an outcast in keeping with His position, awaiting the time of reigning? as the apostle says, "I would to God ye did reign" meaning to reign in the true sense -- "that we also might reign with you;" for there will be reigning, thank God! We are made not only priests, but kings too, which means that we are to reign. But, in the meantime, the answer to that is suffering. The royal

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colour is purple really, which means suffering. It is the colour which covered the altar of burnt offering (Numbers 4:13).

Now I want to bring out from Jacob the brotherhood according to God, and I go back again to his blessing. It is on the principle of gift. This same Jacob later says: "I wait for thy salvation, O Jehovah" (Genesis 49:18). There is no effort with him to have kings reigning. That is the attitude of soul, that is a feature of the brethren that they are content to wait for the divine appointments, for the unfoldings of the divine calendar. I would commend that word to you, as I have to others -- the calendar of God. Everything is there with the utmost accuracy, and all will occur with the utmost precision. It is all there, beloved; therefore there is the need of waiting; and in waiting we show one of the great features of the brethren according to God. So that there is potentiality in this man: his smell is as "the smell of a field which Jehovah hath blessed". The crop has not yet come, but it is coming; it is there potentially.

So that we get the thing concisely in Genesis (for Genesis presents the subject in its completeness); and the next point I would touch is in chapter 37, the verse I read coming in after the announcement of Edom's kings, the long list of dukes corresponding with human pride and glory. Jacob is still a shepherd, and the Spirit of God begins to give us his generations: "These are the generations of Jacob;" and the first one is Joseph. Why Joseph? Why not Reuben? Well, beloved, it is a question of what I am speaking of, it is a question of bringing out the brother; for God is much more concerned about the brother than He is about the king; and He is looking into our hearts now, and telling us that He is looking for the brethren. It is a question of being the brother, not simply the leading brother; that is not the word. The true brother will be a leading brother,

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indeed, for he is "born for adversity" (Proverbs 17:17); he throws himself into the breach and suffers; for that is the idea in leadership, as I hope to show presently in Judah. But Jacob is still a shepherd, and has his generations; but the first one is Joseph. And who is Joseph? Well, he is seventeen years of age; he is the youngest but one, and he is loved of his father. That is a great feature of a brother; he is loved of his father. The Father's eye is upon him, as it was on Jesus: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight" (Matthew 3:17). Is that only for Jesus? No one could, of course, be spoken to in that way except Jesus, but you will observe that it does not say. 'In whom is all my delight' as we sometimes cite it. The word 'all' is not there, for in truth God extends the thought to all the brethren; He finds delight in all. Of course, Jesus is unique; no one could be addressed as He; He is the Firstborn of all the brethren; but then the wide circle of the brethren surrounding Jesus is delightful to the eye of God; He finds delight in them. So we find Joseph mentioned first; and his father loved him. You say, 'Why did he love him?' Well, beloved, I will tell you why. Jacob was his father; but he was also the father of Judah, and of Reuben, and of Simeon, and of all the others; but it does not say that he loved any one of them specially. Why does it say it of Joseph? Because he was lovable. Will you deny God the principle of selection? Will you not allow that His eye appreciates what is lovable? Then the question for me is, am I lovable? Does the Father love me? He loved the Thessalonians -- young christians as they were. It says of them that they were "the assembly of Thessalonians in God the Father" (1 Thessalonians 1:1). You see what place they had, dear brethren. I believe the Thessalonians in their youthfulness and freshness as the product of Paul's labours were delightful to the

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eye of the Father. They were lovable, and that is why they were "in God the Father".

That is the point I wish to make in the passage in Genesis 37, and so we get no generations of Jacob, no sons of Jacob formally given until Joseph makes himself known to his brethren; that is, until they all come in some sense under the character of the brotherhood as in Joseph. That is why I read those verses in chapters 44 and 45. I want to show from these passages how the brotherly spirit and character came to light, and how Joseph really represents Jacob in this development; for in truth what I love is myself in a way; I mean the reflection of my own feelings and ideals coming out in another. So in loving Joseph specially, Jacob is centering on that element. It is what he is, really; with all his shortcomings he is truly the brother, and hence God loved him; so that if Jacob loved Joseph, God loved Jacob: "Jacob have I loved", Jehovah says.

I want to show how this came out. Judah is now putting on brotherly characteristics; that is, he is ready to lay down his life, so to speak, for another. If I am ready to lay down my life for my brother I am certainly ready to lay down a point that is causing distress, however right my view may seem; I am ready at least to submit and wait. If I lay down that which is most to me, as it were, if I lay down my life, I will do all else that is necessary. I will not withhold any consideration for the brethren; and what comes out in Judah is this feature, among other things, that he thought of the effect of things on others. One has spoken of this as regards the Lord Himself. He thought of the effect of an occurrence on others (as in John 11). So if Benjamin does not return to Jacob, what will be the effect on Jacob? Judah is unselfish; his attitude is that of thoughtfulness for others in relation to the effect of an action on others, whether for good or evil. I cannot afford

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that any action of mine should in its bearing be for the damage of the brethren; and so Judah argues with Joseph that if the lad did not go back, his father would die. We cannot afford to let that happen. I cannot afford it; the spirit of a brother in me will forbid it. "He will die" -- think of the disaster of Jacob dying! I am only speaking now as Judah; he says, "When I come to thy servant my father, and the lad is not with us ... he will die". He says, so to speak, 'I cannot admit of it; I will lay down my life!' That is the principle, laying down one's life for Benjamin and for Jacob as the brother. Now Joseph says, 'Let every man go out from me, and I will make myself known to them'. Now the brethren have come to light; that is, Jacob has come to light, for he is the source of all this. Now it is taking form in a practical way. Here is one brother ready to lay down his life instead of little Benjamin; for that is what he was, the least among them. It is true he was an overcomer, but that is not the way he is reckoned in this connection; he is called "the lad", reminding us of the weak brother "for whom Christ has died" (Romans 14:15). We cannot afford to cause him to suffer. We have to consider the effect of our actions on others.

When that came to light it says that "Joseph could not control himself;" that is, the thing is there, the thing that originated and had its source in God through Jacob is now there manifestly, in the royal tribe, too, in Judah. It is practically there in a concrete way, in a man who is ready to become a slave so that the others should not suffer, so that Benjamin should not suffer, nor Jacob; Judah is ready to lay down his life. Joseph could not control himself; he must make himself known to them, for the brethren have come to light. In answer to the enquiry: 'Whence are they? Who are they? Where are they?', here

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they are, showing themselves. It is useless merely to talk about being brethren; it is a question of these qualities. If I am to find the brethren, I am to find them by these qualities, not by mere profession. Who are they? Whence are they? What are they? Where are they? This is the way you find out. Here they are in Judah, and all is taken account of in the light of Judah; so that Joseph could not control himself, and it says, "No man stood with him when Joseph made himself known to his brethren". That is, he is owning them now, and if he does so, it is on account of these qualities. I own them; I am glad to be one of them; I am glad to be with them, for God is with them, and they are going through; their destiny is eternal, and they are worth dying for. So Joseph "fell on his brother Benjamin's neck, and wept; and Benjamin wept on his neck. And he kissed all his brethren, and wept upon them; and after that his brethren talked with him" (verse 15). That is to say the history brings out who the brethren are; and now they are set free to talk with Joseph; every bit of distance is gone, so that they are in liberty in his presence to talk with him. I think, dear brethren, that you have here a suggestion of another trait of the brethren; they are free in the assembly, like the two men with the Lord on the mount of transfiguration (according to Luke's presentation of it); they talked with Him; they appeared in glory, talking with Jesus. They had liberty in heaven. It is the liberty of sons that we have in His presence, and thus we are able to talk with Him, and that in heaven, as the mount of transfiguration shows.

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EARTHEN VESSELS

2 Corinthians 4:7 - 18; 2 Corinthians 5:1 - 9

J.T. It is wholesome to keep before us the phase of the truth presented in this passage. Most of us present are getting on in years. Let us see to it that the younger ones may observe that our persuasion is not in vain, that christianity is real, that our faith is not in vain, so that they may thus be encouraged to proceed. These verses indicate the mind of the speaker: "And having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, I have believed, therefore have I spoken; we also believe, therefore also we speak" (verse 13). The path is to get brighter and brighter. It is assuring. The older ones should become examples to the younger.

C.A.C. How would you connect this with "the ministry of the Spirit" and that of "the new covenant"?

J.T. This passage develops out of chapter 3. "Therefore, having this ministry" (chapter 4: 1). It is a ministry "of the Spirit" which subsists in glory (chapter 3: 8), "of righteousness", which abounds in glory (verse 9), and is viewed as "the surpassing glory" (verse 10). The ministry of the new covenant is glorious! The glory is in the face of Jesus! "But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit" (verse 18). "Therefore, having this ministry ... so that the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God ... the God ... who has shone in our hearts for the shining forth of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels" (chapter 4: 1 - 7). "This ministry ... this treasure", is not the link in that?

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C.A.C. Would the effect be to produce spiritual brightness and radiancy in the saints, and prepare us for the exercises connected with the earthen vessel?

J.T. It contains the treasure. As we grow older the light stands by us, so that we are able to speak of the "momentary and light affliction" which "works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen; for the things that are seen are for a time, but those that are not seen eternal" (verses 17, 18). As to the "earthen vessels", as we advance in years we feel their fragility more and more, peg after peg of the "tabernacle house" is taken down. It makes us sober. "For indeed in this we groan" (chapter 5: 2). But we are assured in soul of "our house which is from heaven". Nothing tests one more than the possibility of dissolution, as to whether one is in faith in the power of God, "We walk by faith" (verse 7); it is one of the greatest tests of faith. Are we anticipating it with jubilation, and in the sense of victory? That is the vein which runs through here.

J.R. Peter speaks of "the putting off of my tabernacle ... as also our Lord Jesus Christ has manifested to me" (2 Peter 1:14), and then of "the excellent glory" (verse 17).

J.T. He speaks of "knowing" it -- he knew that the Lord would not come first. He speaks of it with calmness and assurance. The vessel is "earthen", that is fragile. At any moment it might break. Spiritual energy is needed to "walk by faith".

Ques. What about "the judgment-seat of the Christ"?

J.T. We anticipate it, so that it is no surprise when it comes.

Ques. Would you say that the Lord might come in our lifetime?

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J.T. I am encouraged to ask Him to come sometimes, on account of the conditions that prevail among the saints and because of the dangers of scattering. I would prefer the Lord to come rather than that the saints should be scattered. "Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20) is the thought.

C.A.C. I once asked J.B.S. if he thought that the Lord would come in his lifetime. He answered, 'I think not. I think He would have told me'. It affected me very much as indicating his conscious personal touch with the Lord.

J.T. Sorrowful possibilities confront the assembly, the drift in so many quarters and the dangers of scattering. The Lord has been very good to us for the past twenty-seven years, holding us together. It is right to consider soberly what may be the danger that lies ahead. We should feel for others and not merely say, like Hezekiah, "There shall be peace ... in my days" (2 Kings 20:19).

C.A.C. It is the balance to the abundant, positive ministry which we enjoy and which leads us away from the conditions assailing the testimony in a public way.

J.T. The Lord is preserving us now, to some extent, by allowing local eruptions only, but if the enemy should succeed in co-ordinating these evils, danger confronts us. I should prefer the Lord's coming. He would have us to feel things. One cannot help feeling things.

C.A.C. You would encourage us to take account of it in our prayers?

J.T. There is a readiness with us to be easily carried away. We should calculate soberly and invoke the Lord as to the possibilities we see. 2 Chronicles 34:26 - 28 helps. Josiah was cut off at a bright moment and there was no one to come in to recover things.

C.A.C. He lost his spiritual perception at the very end (2 Chronicles 35:20 - 25).

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Ques. Should what has been formed within shine its brightest at the close of one's life?

J.T. It should! These verses lead in an outlook of victory. As elder brothers and sisters are luminous it is an encouraging example to younger ones.

F.I. Is there the thought of not having a will of our own in the word 'earthen'?

J.T. The vessel is subservient, under the Lord's hand.

F.I. The apostle Paul was thus.

J.T. And to Peter the Lord said: "When thou shalt be old ... another shall gird thee, and bring thee where thou dost not desire" (John 21:18). Age helps us to subjection and dependence.

F.P. "Many shall be purified, and be made white, and be refined" (Daniel 12:10).

J.T. More and more dependent. With young men it is largely a question of using their minds. That is not enough; they may be fleshly and not spiritual. But as we grow older the will recedes and there is more dependence. 'What can I do?' one cries, in this fragile state of things. If He does not help, what can you do? Yet "we have this treasure". We are thus trustworthy from His point of view. "My grace suffices thee; for my power is perfected in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather boast in my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may dwell upon me" (2 Corinthians 12:9). That is what the elder brethren come to and they are thus richer.

Ques. Is "this treasure" (chapter 4: 7) connected with "this very thing" (chapter 5: 5)?

J.T. God has wrought us for it and has "given to us the earnest of the Spirit" in the meantime. As your natural energy is coming to nothing, you are consciously greater than the body you have now.

C.A.C. Will you say what your thought is as to "Always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus" (chapter 4: 10)?

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J.T. It contemplates the fact that the Lord had His dying in view. It was the Lord's attitude of mind in view of the cross. The believer is thinking of the dying of Jesus; it puts us into correspondence with Him. He had taken a body in order to terminate his life. It was especially before Him from the transfiguration onwards. "The dying of Jesus" dignifies the weakening of our bodies.

C.A.C. His dependence had in view His going into death. He also had "the path of life" in view (Psalm 16:11).

J.T. Mary of Bethany seized the thought in anointing Him (John 12:7).

C.A.C. Moses and Elias "spoke of his departure" (Luke 9:31).

J.T. Yes, "two men ... appearing in glory, spoke of his departure which he was about to accomplish in Jerusalem" -- not that He was to be murdered. Moses would be conversant, through the types, with the dying of Jesus.

C.A.C. It would give character to the very spirit of the man of God, as with Moses in Psalm 90, taking account of the frailty of human life.

J.T. "So teach us to number our days". "The days of our years", namely, seventy to eighty. But Moses himself was never a dying man from that point of view. Moses and Aaron both went up to die! They were not tottering old men! And the sacrifices were not of decrepit old creatures!

C.A.C. "Our outward man is consumed" (chapter 4: 16); that is in the service of love, rather than natural decay, in keeping with the Lord's own path.

J.T. "While we look not at the things that are seen" (verse 18). The outlook into eternity gives character to an old brother or sister. It is victory!

C.A.C. One would covet that exceedingly.

J.T. In Deuteronomy Moses was vigorous when he died: "His eye was not dim, nor his natural force

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abated" (Deuteronomy 34:7). And with us decline can be warded off in dependence upon God.

C.A.C. It is exceedingly precious that it can be warded off. It is most encouraging for us, so that we should not drop down to decrepitude.

J.T. Deuteronomy was written in the eleventh month of the one hundred and twentieth year of Moses' life.

C.A.C. And John's gospel was written towards the end of his life, probably A.D. 96 - 97. John is said to have lived until he was one hundred. If so, there is no sign of spiritual weakening with him!

J.T. That is very suggestive.

C.A.C. John, Peter and Paul were all retained here till old age. We read of "Paul the aged" and of Peter as "old". There is special comfort in that for old brothers, advancing in years.

J.T. Let us go out in freshness! As knowing the possibilities, let us pray to God to be kept from them.

Ques. Is not victory the thought in 1 Corinthians 15?

J.T. It is intended to imbue your soul with victory. "Behold, I tell you a mystery" (verse 51).

J.B. "They are still vigorous in old age" (Psalm 92:14).

Rem. Moses was given a song at the end of his life (Deuteronomy 32).

J.T. That was written to order (Deuteronomy 31:19). In Deuteronomy 33 we have "the blessing" and in chapter 34 a vigorous outlook. In Deuteronomy 32:2 he says: "My doctrine shall drop as rain, My speech flow down as dew", that is fresh, not given fifty years before! Jacob stands out in Hebrews 11:21: "By faith Jacob when dying blessed each of the sons of Joseph", showing what discernment he had, "and worshipped on the top of his staff". In prayer do not let me lapse.

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C.A.C. David could pray: "Now also, when I am old and grey-headed, O God, forsake me not, until I have proclaimed thine arm unto this generation" (Psalm 71:18).

J.T. God helps us against decrepitude.

Rem. In 2 Corinthians 1:9 the apostle says: "We ourselves had the sentence of death in ourselves".

J.T. He sees that God is helping him. It is a marvel that the christian can go through so much, as in chapter 4, verses 8 and 9. Then verses 10 to 13 give us the outcome in himself. That is how the matter stands. We are delivered, but God is helping us in the discipline. It is the attitude of mind: "that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh". There is spiritual energy instead of falling into the grave in decrepitude. God will help you that the life of Jesus may be there.

Ques. Of Ephraim it is said, "Yea, grey hairs are here and there upon him, and he knoweth it not" (Hosea 7:9). Is that the losing of spiritual power?

J.T. Want of discernment, too. Gray hairs mean spiritual decay in that sense. In another sense they are honourable, in God's service (see Proverbs 16:31). "We know" (chapter 5: 1). The knowledge that we have stands by us. "Eternal" is a remarkable word.

F.I. Does the character of the vessel affect the ministry of the prophets?

J.T. There is what a man is as a vessel, for God prepares him. God has in mind what He would bring out in him. The prophets were all different. Certain ministry requires magnanimity. God will prepare and qualify a man for that. Each vessel has its own capacity. Another is needed with accuracy of mind or with physical capability, according to what God requires. A rightly regulated mind is needed for insistence on the order of the service of God. There is a variety of vessels. The vessels are fitted and educated to be with God in what He is

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doing. The thought of what is eternal buoys you up in view of dissolution. "While we look not at the things that are seen".

Ques Is the 'we' normal?

J.T. Paul could say 'We', but he speaks as a christian.

Ques. What is meant by: "He that has wrought us for this very thing" (verse 5)?

J.T. The full thought of the heavenly body is in mind. It is what we shall be over against what we are here. We shall have "a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15:44), agreeing with the thought here of being "clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life". You come out of the grave thus. 2 Corinthians 5 is the heavenly side. The passage works up to our heavenly place and to "new creation". 1 Corinthians 15 is the truth of the matter in relation to resurrection. 2 Corinthians 5 is the heavenly side, "our house which is from heaven", "what is mortal ... swallowed up by life". Identity is seen more in 1 Corinthians 15. This (2 Corinthians 5) is on a higher level. The apostle speaks of what he knows from his own experience (including that of anyone like him) as over against the groaning connected with the present tabernacle.

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FEATURES OF DIVINE PRESENTATION

Colossians 1:19 - 22; Ephesians 5:25 - 27

My subject, dear brethren, is presentation, our being presented by God to Himself, and our being presented as the assembly by Christ to Himself. The truth involved is exalted, and it should be so regarded. The Lord would encourage us to look into these exalted features of the truth; they are for us, they are for our perfecting. As we draw near to the end of our wonderful dispensation, the idea of perfecting is in place and, I may say, in prominence, for nothing imperfect will enter heaven. Hence we find the apostle Paul speaking much of the perfecting of the saints. In this epistle to the Colossians he speaks of presenting every man perfect in Christ Jesus. In the epistle to the Ephesians he speaks of gifts given by Christ, ascended on high, as for the perfecting of the saints. So that we can see from these words of the great workman, Paul, that the finished product from skilled hands is what is in order, what God has in His mind, at the present time; and the idea of presentation fills out this thought. Perfection has presentation in mind.

The idea of presentation is best learned from the Lord Himself. After He rose from the dead He presented Himself to His disciples; it is said that He "presented himself living", (Acts 1:3). That, of course, is not the only thought attaching to Jesus, beloved brethren, the thought of His deity is always present. But in view of the formation of the assembly, it was important that those who should form it, and indeed who should have something to do with the inauguration of it, should see Him living. Not only the simple fact of His being alive from among the dead, but that He should be seen according to His own skill in presentation of Himself. It was not simply that He was there as risen (we are told elsewhere

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that He came and stood in the midst), but that, in the beginning of the Acts, He presented Himself living, as if to call attention to the great thought of life in Himself. It was the life that God had in mind for men, dear brethren. He is said indeed, personally, to be "the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us" (1 John 1:2). That is a greater thought, it involves His Person more, although as Man, that eternal life which was with the Father seen and heard and handled and contemplated. "Which was with the Father" alludes to what He was as Man with God, whether before His death or after. But He had in mind, in the presentation of Himself to His disciples, to call attention to the life, to a risen Man, a Man in a new condition, He being the first to have it; so that He presented Himself. It was a matter of His own thought, whatever the attitude may have been, it was to impress them with that, with Himself as alive. He assembled with them too, which is an additional thought, so as to carry the idea into the assembly which was to be a living state of things, ordered but living.

Then in keeping with this thought, Peter, in Acts 9, presents Tabitha, who had died, living. She was a worthy person, but she died; the point is not simply that she died, in the ordinary sense, but that death should come in on such a one as that. One who was so highly esteemed for her works' sake, that is works of a kind, the making of garments; these were exhibits that her admirers presented to Peter, clothes for needy people. I need not say that there is no life in them, nor did the garments she made require death as a preliminary. The first garments made did require death; God made garments out of skins, but there is no evidence that Dorcas was occupied in making clothes of that kind. Yet the exhibits were what she had made -- "body-coats and

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garments", just ordinary garments. Death came in on that work. The idea is that that is not the thing in the assembly. God is moving out; Peter is visiting all quarters; Paul is already on the scene; scattered saints are preaching Christ; converts are coming on; making garments is not the thought, more than that is needed, so that death came in on that. There was the dead body and there were the exhibits, no suggestion of life. But Peter prayed, having put all the weepers out, the people that were so occupied with Dorcas. He had learnt from Jesus; for that is the idea, dear brethren, learning from Jesus -- Jesus had done the same thing. We must learn everything from Christ, even the environment for service; we must learn how to serve in proper environment, to learn to shut out all that militates against the Spirit. Peter had learnt that; he put them all out, and he kneeled down and prayed. That is an action that is within the range of everyone, to kneel down and pray; he had learnt that from Christ too. He learnt, not only how to speak, but what attitude to assume in certain circumstances, not that we should be attitudinarians, but, at the same time we should be right in any circumstances. Some needs are great and require excessive exercise, and kneeling down denotes that the matter on hand is serious. I have no doubt that solution of difficulties would come about if we took them to heart in this way more. But he turned to the body; the Lord had done that too, He turned to living bodies; He turned to the woman in Simon's house; she was a living woman, she loved Him; that is the idea of life. Let there be no pretence to divine life aside from love; love is the expression of it. The Lord looked toward her. He turned toward her. Peter turned to Dorcas; she was still dead, but she opened her eyes and sat up and, we are told, "having given her his hand, he raised her up, and ... presented her living" (verse 41). The Lord had done

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a similar thing; He had done it in regard of Himself. The most perfect presentation of life was in Christ, but especially as He presented Himself. It was an act of skill, as I might say, in deference, too, to the great persons to whom He had come: He presented Himself. How one would love to see the Lord deliberately doing that, some attitude by which He would convey the thought of life in Himself. It is that which is to fill the universe, that life.

Well now, as I said, we get the thought of presentation in that way, and it is comforting, speaking of this, that Jude, so as to assure our hearts, says, in a beautiful doxology (another thing, dear brethren, that is to be noted in the apostolic writings, the fervency and the depth of feeling that marked these men) "To him that is able to keep you without stumbling ..." (there is always that danger, so in Colossians 1:23 the 'if' comes in in verse 23) "and to set you" [or present you] "with exultation blameless before his glory". Think of the brilliancy of that light, the shining out of the glory, beloved! God is able to keep us, to set us up there, "God our Saviour" to whom he ascribes "glory, majesty, might, and authority, from before the whole age, and now, and to all the ages. Amen" (Jude 24, 25). What great thoughts encircle what I am speaking of, dear brethren, being set up, or presented, in the presence of the glory by God Himself. He is able to do it; He is able to keep us from stumbling so as to do it. That is what He is aiming at, to keep us from stumbling, for the danger is great; and you may be sure that if God is aiming at great things, Satan is all the more aiming to defeat Him, so we are to be warned, but God is able to keep us.

Now in Colossians we have perhaps the greatest thought in this respect. Colossians is what may be called a tentative epistle; it is not final for we are not yet in Canaan, and hence the 'if', but everything needed is brought in to induce a forward movement.

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There is no standing still until we are seated in the heavenlies, dear brethren, that is Ephesians. Colossians contemplates that, though we are still here, we are very near heaven, in the confines of Canaan, in fact passing over the Jordan. It is an epistle to meditate on, to take account of the surroundings, the group of great things that are presented there, so that we might go over. The point is to go over, not to retrograde. The enemy is seen in this epistle as set to prevent our entrance, and hence the stress of the apostle to promote movement forward without faltering. So we have "the circumcision of the Christ" (chapter 2: 11), one of the greatest thoughts, the putting off of the body of the flesh in the circumcision of the Christ. We take that on as educated, as instructed, in what the flesh is and that it is put off judicially in the circumcision of the Christ -- the body of the flesh. Then we read that we are "buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead" (verse 12). A great display of power is brought into our vision, the operation of God who raised Him. The greatest expression of power is in the resurrection of Christ, and that is for our faith. And then, quickened with Him, which is a real present thing by the Spirit in our affections. It is most precious to contemplate the thought, dear brethren, that we are quickened together with Christ, that is, made to live in our minds and affections, made to live with Christ. 'With' is a great characteristic word in Colossians -- "with Christ".

Now the verses read in chapter 1 are among the greatest in the epistle. As you will all know, the reference is not to the Father, but to the Deity, the Godhead: "the fulness" is of the Godhead. The Authorised Version has "the Father" (verse 19) but it is not there in the original; the point is "the fulness", without saying what the fulness is; all the

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fulness dwelt in Christ. The word 'bodily' is not here; it is in chapter 2; here it is literally, 'in Him all the fulness was pleased to dwell'. We have "of the Godhead" added in chapter 2, but not formally mentioned in the original here. What does the word 'fulness' mean? What can it mean but the fulness of God? We are educated into that, just as we are into the word 'greatness' in Hebrews 8"the greatness in the heavens". What is that greatness but the greatness of God? It is really to emphasise the thought that the fulness is there, all the fulness is there in Christ. So what is stated is that the 'fulness [of the Godhead] reconciles all things to Itself'. (I am quoting now from the better translation by J.N.D., probably known to all of us; if not, it should be, for it is one of the greatest treasures that has come down to us). The Godhead Itself is occupied in reconciling. Elsewhere we are told: "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself" (2 Corinthians 5:19). Now, what I would remark, dear brethren, is this, that what Scripture presents to us, sin having come in, is that God never surrenders His majesty in Deity. The establishment of government in Eden, in "the Cherubim, and the flame of the flashing sword" (Genesis 3:24), is the testimony to the intactness (if I may use that word, speaking reverently) of the Deity. There is no change in that respect; let none of us think that there can be! The Deity is maintained in all Its majesty and absoluteness. But then God, at the same time, is making clothes, dear brethren! There are the cherubim and the flame of the flashing sword at the gate, as it were, of Eden, but in putting them there, God is not without feeling. If you look at this translation I have alluded to, you will note He speaks with feeling, as much as to say, 'Oh, what will happen if man lives for ever in his sins!' God recoiled from the thought: it must not be. There is feeling, so He has recourse to His

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government; it is inexorable, there it stands; there can be no variation from that sword. But He is making clothes, that blessed God humbled Himself, dear brethren, to make clothes, to make clothes for them who are shut out of Eden by His government. Is that not touching? Well, there are the two lines that run down, wholly seen in Jesus -- God come down, not only to make clothes for man, but in Jesus, to die. "It is Christ who has died" (Romans 8:34), but the One who died has His part in Deity, never loses it, never surrenders it; but He died, hence the Deity here has a means by which to reconcile all things to Itself. What a triumph that is! How God is brought down, dear brethren, comes down, to be beside us, to serve us in manhood and die. Of course you cannot say that God died -- that would be wrong -- yet the One who died was God. He could say, "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). We must never surrender that thought. But He has become flesh, "The Word became flesh", we are told (John 1:14). He took a condition that He could lay down. (It is no imaginary thing, it is no sham, beloved friends; it is real). He was perfect in it, feeling as a man, feeling pain, feeling sorrow, weeping -- all these things are food for our souls -- and in Him God had a means of reconciling all things to Himself, or "to itself", as the passage should read. And then, not only all things, but persons too, not all persons, but persons, for all persons are not reconciled -- that is a solemn fact. "All things" allude to the universe, to that which God intended for the display of Himself. But then persons are reconciled; that is, "you" ourselves. "You ... has it reconciled in the body of his flesh through death; to present you holy and unblamable and irreproachable before it". It is an unrebuking gaze; God can look on us with infinite complacency through the work of Jesus. He has it in mind, He presents us Himself to Himself, in

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perfect consistency with Himself, with His gaze, with His sight. Now this is a very great fact and should powerfully act upon us, as to what God has in His mind, the perfecting of the saints. How it induces holiness! how it induces unblamableness! If He has in His mind holiness, then holiness is my business; if He has in His mind unblamableness, then unblamableness is my business as before Him. He has given me the means of it, the Holy Spirit in me and other accompanying things -- ministry, fellowship, prayers, and so on, all have in view that the saints should be holy, "Be ye holy, for I am holy" (1 Peter 1:16). We are to be unblamable, irreproachable, not only in the sight of the brethren, but in the sight of God; that is what He has in His mind. What a tribute to the work of Christ, for it is "in the body of his flesh through death", as it says.

Well, now, the other thought is in Ephesians. There it is a question of the assembly; and, in approaching this subject, those of us who love Jesus are drawn to His side. When here He looked for sympathy in suffering, but He found none (Psalm 69:20) as He approached the cross. Now He looks for sympathy in His joys and He finds sympathisers. Luke 15 shows how the Lord, the Spirit, and the Father, have joy and have those who share it sympathetically. And I would say here, dear brethren, speaking very carefully and reverently, that the life of divine Persons in revelation is very largely made up in what They find in the saints. They live in Themselves, of course, abstractly. They live before and beyond creation. There is really no need to say that God is independent of all creation: but He is pleased to come in, and, if He is pleased to say that wisdom was by Him in the creation and that her "delights were with the sons of men" (Proverbs 8:31) we must take notice of that. If Jesus says to the saints that are on the earth and to the excellent

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"In them is all my delight" (Psalm 16:3), we must take note of that. If God says that the saints are His inheritance, we must take note of that -- He means it! We must understand what He came out for. There is what He is in His inscrutable infinitude -- He dwells in light unapproachable -- but He has come into circumstances involving humiliation so as to bring about something. He is pleased to intimate that He is seeking conditions in relation to men, that, as it were, He lives in those relations. How wonderful that is! -- it is to me, dear brethren. The saints are so essential to God! And so the father of the prodigal says: "It was right to make merry and rejoice". Why should we be merry? Because of the returning one, the son who was dead and is alive again, who was lost and is found, with the best robe on him -- remember that! -- with the shoes on his feet and the ring on his hand. He is representative of the repenting sinner. The Father's delight is in him. In the words said to the elder brother, "It was right to make merry and rejoice". He defends the position. Let no one question it, for God will defend the position, He thinks so much of the saints.

And so the Lord in this passage, so often quoted, "loved the assembly". "Christ also loved the assembly" -- it is in the past. He loves it, of course, and He will love it, but He loved it, and He "delivered himself up for it, in order that he might sanctify it, purifying it by the washing of water by the word" -- that is how the sanctification is apparent. But the point is to sanctify it so that He "might present the assembly to himself glorious", present it to Himself.

We were speaking today of Isaac, in Genesis 24, and let me remind you, dear brethren, that the servant's name is not given, nor is it a mere domestic, as in an earlier chapter, it is the eldest servant in Abraham's house; he is a man of importance. That

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is the point in regard to the servant in Genesis 24. But when Rebecca asks about Isaac, he says, "That is my master!" -- not 'my master's son', though Abraham was still alive. It is a tribute to Jesus, He is equal with God. If Abraham is master to the servant, so is Isaac master. That is how Scripture speaks. Let us not allow our minds to work in these things; let us follow the Scripture. So here, if He presents the assembly to Himself, that is His deity; no one but a divine Person could do that. Adam did not present Eve to himself (although he was indeed a type of Christ), God presented her to Adam. But the Father does not bring the assembly to Christ here, Christ presents her to Himself. "He is thy Lord", as is said in Psalm 45, "and worship thou him". So we get these informal statements that testify to His personal glory; the Scriptures are full of them, so that we are built up in them; we breathe them, as it were; in the household of faith we breathe the testimony to the glory of Jesus. No impartial person can read Scripture without arriving, as I may say, informally in his soul, at the deity of Christ. It is seen there from the very outset. Of course, one might go further and say that the Jehovah Elohim who brought Eve to Adam was Jesus; the Jehovah that made the earth is Jesus -- "He was in the world, and the world had its being through him" (John 1:10). And so here, in this informal way, He "loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it, in order that he might sanctify it, purifying it by the washing of water by the word, that he might present the assembly to himself glorious, having no spot, or wrinkle, or any of such things". Now that is the other side of this great subject, dear brethren. The Lord is engaged in it now constantly, this washing of water is the means of it, but the great thought in His mind is sanctification. He prayed about this to His Father, and He is now engaged in sanctifying us, purifying

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us "by the washing of water by the word;" that is to say, the ministry of the word, as in the power of the Spirit, is intended to purify our souls, to purify us as He is pure -- that is the standard. There must be correspondence with Him, and the ministry of the word in the power of the Spirit has that in mind. The 'word' is to be noted, it brings out the mind of God and the mind of Christ, it acts on our minds so that we come to value what is more excellent. That is a sanctifying idea; if I grasp something more excellent, I am correspondingly purified, I am correspondingly sanctified, and that is what is going on. What is going on, as I have been remarking, is the perfecting of the saints in view of this presentation, so that there should be nothing unfinished, nothing imperfect. The Lord said to His Father, "I have finished the work ..." but He had said earlier, "My food is that I should do the will of him that has sent me, and I should finish his work" (John 4:34). He set out there the idea of a skilled workman -- another thought that should be before us. Unskilled labour may bring in raw material indeed, but skill is required for perfection -- that is what you see in Jesus, correspondingly in Paul and in all the apostles -- holy, skilled labour. It is seen in Exodus, too, in Bezaleel and others -- what remarkable skill is seen in the building of the tabernacle! That is what is going on, dear brethren, and the Lord would call us into it. He has need of skilled labour -- of unskilled, too, for we are all to be working -- but the need is for skilled labour that every man should be presented perfect in Christ. So in the grand presentation there will be nothing at all to cause distress, everything will be in keeping with Christ: "that he might present the assembly to himself glorious, having no spot, or wrinkle, or any of such things".

May God use these thoughts, dear brethren, for our blessing.

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FORMATION OF ASSEMBLY MATERIAL

Acts 8 - 24; Acts 16:13 - 18

J.T. These scriptures are read with a view to the consideration of assembly material and incidentally that we might also see something of the skilled workmanship that is needed both in the procuring of the material and in its formation.

We were noticing recently, some of us, how unskilled workmanship may acquire greater outward results than the skilled workmanship.

C.A.C. That is most important and helpful for us.

J.T. After Stephen's death many who were scattered abroad carried the glad tidings as far as Antioch, with great outward results, but more skilled workmanship had to follow to make the results suitable for the divine purpose. Philip had great results at Samaria, but Peter and John came down to perfect the work. Philip did not perfect it; and the others went into Antioch and preached to the Greeks so that a great number believed and turned to the Lord. But Barnabas had to come, and Saul of Tarsus had to come, to perfect the work and make it suitable for the divine purpose. Then we find too, that in the work of the greatest workman, the most skilled, that is Paul, there were very few outward results from his early preaching. His work, according to chapter 11, too, after he was brought to Antioch, was to perfect the work of others. For a whole year he and Barnabas toiled to teach them in the assembly. They taught a large crowd, we are told, in the assembly. It does not say they were used to convert them -- they taught them.

Ques. Is it your thought that that might obtain today?

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J.T. It is obtaining. Those that are least skilled seem to get the most results outwardly, but the great concern is that divine ends should be reached, and for that we need skilled workmen.

Ques. What is the divine end?

J.T. Well, there are two. The first, as to the immediate need, is to have material for the assembly here, brothers and sisters who understand the assembly, who know how to function and support the testimony in divine power. The second and ultimate end is that we should fit in with the divine counsel. God has His own number chosen before the foundation of the world and He is seeking these, so that it comes out in Paul. On his first great missionary journey he and Barnabas went down to Cyprus and traversed the whole island and did not get anyone save Elymas, and he was an opposer, and the man that God had in His mind to secure, that is the deputy of the island. And then in Acts 13:48 those that were ordained to eternal life believed; meaning that that side comes out with skilled workmen. They are not thinking of the results as reflecting themselves, accrediting themselves, but as answering to the divine counsels, a notable thing to be mentioned in regard to the greatest workman: and I believe that these remarks have a peculiar application today because of the apparent results by unskilled people, persons who hardly know the assembly at all.

C.A.C. Did you think that that was what we should have specially in view now, the development of things according to the whole counsel of God?

J.T. I believe that is what God is aiming at. At the beginning of the revival, of course, there were great public results, but that phase came to an end in the great division; and since that division what has been prominent is the assembly and the house, and that is more and more stressed by the Spirit, I think. The Lord is calling for skilled workmen so that

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the saints might be perfected, that there might be something answering to His mind in the end.

Rem. So the Lord spoke of finishing the work which was given Him to do.

J.T. Quite so. His was to do the will of God and to finish. John's ministry would stress that -- what is finished, and so it is said in Acts 14:26, "and thence they sailed away to Antioch;" that is, attention is called to the workmen, that they are workmen who had gone the full limit of what is required. They fulfilled their mission, and what marks the chapter is the setting up of assemblies, and leaders selected in each assembly, so that the mind of God is answered to in each locality, the assemblies standing up on their own feet.

Ques. Would that be the course of things when the apostle went on his two or three tours to see how they did? He was used of God, the first time to lay the foundation and the second time to perfect the work.

J.T. That is right. So that you find in the beginning of this second journey in chapter 15 Paul passed through Syria and Cilicia. It is further stated that "the assemblies therefore were confirmed in the faith, and increased in number every day".

Rem. So that confirmation and increase was the evidence of good workmanship.

J.T. That is the way the matter stands. I think the Spirit of God has written this carefully to call attention to the workmanship, material and the results, how the assemblies were set up on their own feet severally with leaders in each. That is what I think we might see in these two cases, a certain man in Lystra, and Lydia, the kind of material for local gatherings. The first as to spiritual formation, the man at Lystra had never walked and he represents the gentiles that had never walked or pleased God. The material is taken up entirely as in itself. He could

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never be of any service as he was. Now he walks. It says: "He sprang up and walked". That is the kind of material that will be available in a local company. I believe Lystra is mentioned later to remind us of this, as having an assembly and leaders appointed there. Then Lydia is the kind of material that will also be needed in the local assembly. She is a business woman, indicative of the source or kind of people that are drawn upon, business people, whether brothers or sisters. She is qualified in that God opened her ear to attend. There can be no assembly conditions without that, without persons whose hearts are opened. Paul is the great assembly minister, the wise architect, and unless we attend to what he says in our locality we shall not answer to the mind of God in the assembly locally.

Ques. Is Paul's ministry very important?

J.T. Yes, it is important, that is the point. Those who turn aside from the path in independence as a rule do not pay attention to it; they do not observe it in its true character.

Ques. What would answer to this walking at the present time?

J.T. It is the way you move about in any given locality, how you should walk. I think it refers to the saints' movements in our localities. A business woman might be known in a universal way, travelling overseas. Phoebe too, another business woman, apparently travelled to Rome. Such a journey is a tax on a christian as to whether he has ability to maintain things. Travelling on the ocean, for instance, is very taxing to christians as to their spiritual power and whether they can keep aloof from the spirit of the world.

Rem. The man in chapter 14 heard Paul speaking.

J.T. I think he represents the work of God. He heard Paul speaking and Paul discerned in him that he had faith, faith for what is so needed. Lydia is

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more a type of one whom the Lord could affect. The Lord opened her heart. It is more differential in her case. She is a woman of potential quality. She is a business woman who had come from another city and she was a seller of purple and one who worshipped, meaning that she was a proselyte. She attended the synagogue, but she attended the prayer meeting also. Her business seemed to help. It did not hinder. No legitimate business should hinder. Indeed the business becomes an occasion of the truth shining out, that I can be a heavenly person and sell real estate or dry goods or whatever it may be. Lydia was a seller of purple -- that would be dyes. Her business was to sell them. These dyes may be used to embellish the world but that was not her business; she sold them.

Ques. Is what you are suggesting as a work of God in contrast to what the Lord says to Sardis: "I have not found thy works complete"?

J.T. That is a good suggestion, because the Lord is laying it open, to look into the state of the saints. The Lord alludes to finding, meaning that he had looked into it: "I have not found". The great principle of examination of work is in Exodus, where the material is furnished by the people and then it is put into use and the work brought to Moses and Moses passes it and blesses them. That is what the Lord does. He had not found the work in Sardis perfect. There was much being done but it was not perfect. I suppose all the great religious evangelism in the last century would be included, great activity with apparent results, but the Lord says, "I have not found".

R.W.S. Is it not suggestive that in each scripture read where material is secured and perfected extreme suffering is contemplated?

J.T. The character of the enemy's attack against the ministers should also be noted; it involves suffering.

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F.I. These two instances show much energy and activity; is it greater than what is seen as a result of the apostles' doctrine and fellowship in Acts 2?

J.T. I think Acts 2 is intended by God to stand by itself. There is very little said as to regulation. They are told to be baptised but there is very little said as to regulation and the imposition of assembly principles. I think that God intended the movement at Pentecost to stand out as an evidence of his own direct work.

The description given is very striking in the end of the chapter, but the regulations that belong to Paul's ministry are not there. I think it is intended to stand out as evidence of the immediate results of the Spirit in volume. It awaited Paul to work out what God had in his mind, that is, companies of saints set up throughout the world.

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A CITY OF HABITATION

Psalm 107:1 -- -8, 35, 36; Zechariah 14:10, 11 (first clause)

This psalm is the beginning of the last book of Psalms, and significantly calls for praise. The book has praise in view, as might be expected, it being the last book of the Psalms, the whole book having God in mind, all things being for Him, and above all, the intelligent praises of His people. So that we have here a call to men, "Give ye thanks unto Jehovah; for he is good; for his loving-kindness endureth for ever". What enters into the psalm most significantly, and what I wish to speak of, is the idea of "a city of habitation". The idea of a habitation, that is, a place of dwelling, whether in the country or in the city, is pronounced in the Scriptures. The earth was made, not in vain, but to be inhabited, and it will be. The Lord Jesus is said to be set over "the habitable world which is to come" (Hebrews 2:5). The city will be there, both the heavenly and the earthly; but the earth too will be a scene inhabited according to God. It is exhilarating to contemplate an earth, inhabited according to God, all knowing Him; as it is said, "The earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea" (Isaiah 11:9). There will be a complete reversal of the present state of things where the very opposite, that is, ignorance of God, prevails. Men, it says, "did not think good to have God in their knowledge" (Romans 1:28); and that is how the matter stands; even where He has been known, the knowledge of Him is being systematically eliminated. How great will be the change, dear brethren, when the knowledge of God shall prevail with all the accompanying results here. That is what will mark the coming world, the world to come; many other things too as the result of it, but the

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great thought is the knowledge of God, and His praise, as the result of that. This book has the full result in mind. Now, for the moment, the world is a wilderness to the christian, to faith, and that is what the psalm contemplates; it contemplates too the gathering of God's people, it contemplates them feelingly as wandering, and then as gathered and led. "They found no city of habitation", we are told, until God took a hand in gathering and in leading.

Now these facts apply at the present time. In the history of public christianity, it came about that the people of God found themselves in circumstances such as described in these early verses; they found no city of habitation. The great city spoken of in the book of the Revelation called Babylon existed indeed, but that is not a city of habitation such as God has in mind. Indeed in the prophets it is itself described as a wilderness, as a desert, meaning that there is no refreshment in it for the people of God. There was no city of habitation for hundreds of years in the history of public christianity. But God has taken a hand in matters, dear brethren, and the principle of gathering has ensued and the principle of leadership, and these facts have culminated in what many of the people of God are enjoying at this very time, "a city of habitation". It is said, "They found no city of habitation", but God "led them forth by a right way, that they might go to a city of habitation". Most of us here, thank God, have been thus led. Some may not have been; if not, it is your opportunity to fall under divine leadership, and that will mean that you will go to a city of habitation. "That they might go to a city of habitation;" most of us understand! God has intervened wonderfully during a century now, and, in referring to a century, one is thankful to be able to testify to the continuance of the movement, and, we might say, a certain enlivenment in it, so that the idea of a city of habitation is

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becoming more and more prominent in the minds of the brethren. The enemy attacked very soon and beclouded the position; the early movement became beclouded almost immediately; an evil root was sown. As of old, as the Lord sowed the good seed, the enemy sowed tares, so an evil root was sown, and soon bore fruit. But the position through it became clarified, and the idea of a city of habitation has been kept in view, thank God, ever since, and I believe will be kept in view until the end. The heavenly city having come into view, not only in the Scriptures, but in a spiritual way, the saints will be kept moving on until they reach that blessed city, truly "a city of habitation".

Now I want to show before passing on to Zechariah (for I wish particularly to speak of Zechariah) that, alongside of the divine movement and leadership, God, as the end of the psalm shows, creates an environment out of which the idea of a city of habitation springs. That is to say, in verse 35 we read, "He maketh the wilderness into a pool of water, and the dry land into water-springs;" that is what God does. This passage corresponds with Exodus, and I bring it forward now, as just stressing what God does, what God will do, what God is indeed doing out of consideration for His people who instinctively seek a city of habitation; He creates an environment. In Exodus as the people came into the wilderness they found springs; for us these refer to the activities of the Spirit for the environment of a city of habitation is spiritual activities. The geographical environment may be simple but not so the spiritual side; the geographical is nothing more than a wilderness, however fine the houses, however attractive the gardens. Suburban dwellings have these thoughts in mind, but they never cease to be a wilderness; if they do in our estimation, they become deadening to us. If we hold them as a wilderness it is safe to be in them,

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but not otherwise. As holding them as a wilderness, we may look for some spiritual movement that will intimate that there should be a city of habitation; and that, dear brethren, is what spiritual instinct will look for, a spiritual movement. The wilderness, as it says here, is turned "into a pool of water, and the dry land into water-springs;" that is an act of God. No water supply according to man can answer to this; it is an act of God by His Spirit. How great is the fact that the Holy Spirit is here and in the household of christians! As the arid conditions in the world and the earth are accepted, there is room for the Spirit, and there will be the pools of water. Water, that is to say, that is available; and springs, fresh energy of the Spirit, and hence you find in this setting the city of habitation. "There he maketh the hungry to dwell, and they establish a city of habitation".

I mention all these things because they are apropos at the moment to the increase of saints. Thank God for them, for every one! Before you can have Zion, there must be the dwellings of Jacob, and the dwellings of Jacob are not houses and gardens, needful as these may be. Living in these things, beloved, today does not characterise the dwellings of Jacob. The dwellings of Jacob lead to Zion. Any dwelling that does not lead to Zion, that does not point to Zion, is not a dwelling of Jacob; it points in the other direction, it points to a bigger house, it points to a larger garden, and they point to the world; it is it! The dwellings of Jacob point to Zion, they stand in relation to Zion. As the Israel of God of old were set round the divine dwelling, set in relation to it, so it is today that the dwellings of the saints are set in relation to the assembly; or they are not dwellings of Jacob. It is very remarkable that these thoughts appear in relation to the apostle Paul, the great minister of the assembly.

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The household of Lydia would suggest Zion to the apostle, it would point to Zion, it would point to the assembly; there would be nothing in it inconsistent with the heavenly thought, for the assembly is the reflection here of what is in heaven. It must be so; the material for it must be from those who are heavenly, and the households of the saints will comport with that. Hence you will find the pools of water in the wilderness and the springs, and the hungry fed so that they establish a city of habitation. One has remarked, dear brethren, on the increase of gatherings; but there are what are called the environments of Jerusalem, we must have these; if there be the environments, then why not Jerusalem? That is God's thought. God loves Zion; "Here will I dwell", He says, "for I have desired it" (Psalm 132:14). He loves the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob. Why not minister to Him? Why should His desires be deferred? Why should I be building my ceiled house and His house lie desolate? I am not here for His pleasure, for His will, save as I think of Zion. So that the environment is created. God does it; it is His act; and God, in this sense, is available to us, and He gives us the pools of water in the wilderness and the water-springs.

Now that leads me to the verse in Zechariah, where from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem, you have the environment brought in. It is said that "All the land ... shall be turned as the Arabah;" that is to say, I apprehend, a change from unproductive conditions, from uninhabitable conditions, into habitable conditions. It is an act of God. Now God is acting; He is ready to act; if we have Zion in our minds He is with us. Zion, that is to say, the assembly or Jerusalem, may be a great abstract thought; it is indeed primarily according to Nehemiah 7:4, "The city was large and great; but the people in it were few", meaning that it is a great abstract thought; but for the

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concrete you must have people. So that God creates the environment such as will invite people; in that there will be these conditions I have spoken of. But we must not rest in these; we must not rest simply in the pools of water and the springs, blessed as they are, but we must think of God. We are not here after His thought save as we are thinking of Him, and what He has here on earth now. Now, after this allusion to what is south of the city, it goes on to say, "And Jerusalem shall be lifted up, and shall dwell in her own place". She has a place; if there be any thought, dear brethren, of the extension of Jerusalem, we must not overlook the place, it is not any place; I am not now speaking geographically, it is "her own place", she has a place. Just as in Ezra the altar had its place, its base, so Jerusalem has her place. We sometimes have to seek out sites for our meeting rooms, a very necessary thing, but we have to bear in mind this idea of place, that is in God's thoughts, "her own place", not any place. Jerusalem is to be inhabited in her place; that is, God is having to say to this matter. It is not that we are to have another meeting in our town, it is not increase from that point of view; it is God saying, 'I have to do with this matter; Jerusalem has a place in My mind, and she is to be inhabited in that place'. How this casts us upon God, and how God loves to be relied upon in such matters! How He would move with us! How quickly the end would be reached!

Well now, dear brethren (I am speaking as I hope, spiritually, but very practically) the principles are in relation to place, "From Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate". Now if we are looking for a site, we must look for Benjamin's gate (you will understand I am not speaking geographically, I am speaking spiritually) and then the first gate. I do not know anything that would be more interesting spiritually than to find Benjamin's gate. When

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Nehemiah started to build the wall, the gates were all there, their names were distinguishable. This seems another feature to what we have in Nehemiah, and one that enters into the present time, dear brethren, and I wonder, in our exercise about meetings, whether we have ever looked for Benjamin's gate. And then, the first gate, "From Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate". One might say much about Benjamin, his history no doubt is known to most of us, but what you get at his birth no doubt is what is in the mind of God. He was the last son of Jacob, the twelfth; that is, you have in Benjamin the idea of finish, that this matter is to be mutual: you must have the twelfth and there must be mutuality in the thing. This is a matter for all. When Joseph was born Rachel said, "Jehovah will add to me another son" (Genesis 30:24), that was what her thought was; but God's thought was that another son would be the twelfth. Rachel's counsels are one thing, God's counsels are another; in this case they synchronise and Jacob promptly says, 'I will go to Canaan now' and return to my father's house. How spiritual that was, for addition is to be in Canaan, if it is to be spiritual, it is not to be in Padan-Aram. Alas, the additions he acquired there in Padan were simply cows and sheep, different cattle; these are not the additions, beloved, that God had in mind at all. There was to be a twelfth son, and that means that we have mutuality. (That word 'mutuality' has become hackneyed, I am afraid, but yet there is hardly another to take its place). But it is not simply that we agree to do certain things; it is the agreement of love, the manipulation of love; that is what is in mind in Benjamin. He was born in Canaan, the only son of Jacob who was born in Canaan; Joseph was born in Padan, but his birth meant that Jacob would move out of Padan, out of the world. The twelfth son was born in Canaan;

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suitably so, for that is the country God has in mind; there can be no assembly, dear brethren, without that. Every assembly should have in mind the full thought of God; it is an addition, but it is an addition in Canaan; it is the full thought of God, not any addition to us; Rachel says, "to me", but God says, 'for Me'! Benjamin is the twelfth son, he is the son of his father's right hand, the son of his mother's sorrow; no doubt the sorrow should enter into it for we can have no assembly according to God without that, without the mother's side. She bore him with sorrow, as indeed did Jabez's mother, and he became enlarged; enlargement is in that connection. But there is, on the other hand, the power of God, of God's right hand. He is the son of the father's right hand. Who is that? That is Christ. A new meeting must be a place for Christ, and for what Christ is doing. As Peter says, in view of new meetings without number, to Aeneas, "Rise up, and make thy couch for thyself" (Acts 9:34), and he says, "Jesus, the Christ, heals thee;" it is the Christ, the Son of God's right hand, the One who does things, He does everything. "Jesus, the Christ", says Peter, "heals thee", not 'will heal thee;' it is what He is doing. Let us take that in; it is what He is doing.

Well now, the other thought is, from that gate to "the place of the first gate". If there be power, if there be support, if there be the twelfth son, let there be also first principles; the primary thoughts of God must enter into all this. We shall soon have Zion, we shall soon have a city of habitation, dear brethren, under these circumstances, and that is what God is aiming at. And then it further says in this remarkable verse, "Unto the corner-gate", that is the next thing. There will be some corner to be turned as soon as we get a new meeting, and that corner always requires strength or you will have a collapse; something will come up; it is very remarkable

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how many things come up in local companies, and the Lord will say, 'Well now, what are you going to do with this?' It seems insurmountable, and, unless there be love, which never fails, it will be insurmountable, and there will be a collapse. So it is "From Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner-gate". The corner-gate is the testing-gate as to how much strength we have, how much love there is. Will it stand the stress of a special strain? For that is what a corner signifies in this sense. And then you will observe finally, "From the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses". The tower of Hananeel I read to mean the gospel testimony; that is the next thing. If we can stand the strain of a tested love, then we must think of the dispensation; the dispensation of God stands, it is in faith, and it is the dispensation of grace. It began in Jerusalem: the saints were talking about Simon, how the Lord Jesus had appeared to him (Luke 24:34). It was a question of the grace of God. That is what Hananeel means, according to the scholars; I have no doubt the name means that. Why should we be hidden away? We are hidden away, in one sense, we do not want to be conspicuous; Colossians keeps us hidden, but grace will bring us out. Why not? We have wonderful things to say to people, why not say them? "Proclaim the word;" says Paul in a dark day, "be urgent in season and out of season" (2 Timothy 4:2). "Proclaim the word;" I think that is the tower of Hananeel. The assembly is "the pillar and base of the truth", it supports the gospel, and that is the next thing; and the final thing is "the king's winepresses". Notice these points, for I believe it is in this sense that we get the place where the building is to be; Benjamin's gate, the first gate, the corner-gate, and then the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. That is to say, the Lord is looking for something; if the king has winepresses

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he intends to have wine. Thus you find with Nehemiah, who attended on the king, and so with the cup-bearer of Pharaoh; all these thoughts apply spiritually, dear brethren. Surely the king is to have something. How is it to come? It is by pressure. These are no joyous matters; there is no attraction for the flesh at all in the king's winepresses; it is a question of pressure, it is in truth Gethsemane. The King Himself was in Gethsemane; the Lord knows about the pressure; but what is the pressure for? That which makes God glad, the wine that gladdens the heart of God; that is the end. And so, as I said, we can readily find the place if we follow those lines; and the end will be more for God. That is the great question really as to how what the King looks for is to be promoted; what God seeks, how is that to be promoted? He looks for the most. We have in John 15 an instance; if there be fruit, then more fruit, and there is no limit, God never stops, more and more. Well, I only refer to that to confirm what I am saying that the king's winepresses imply in any meeting that there is to be something for Christ through pressure, and that is how the matter stands, and will stand, if God is to be with us until the end.

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HEAVENLY-MINDEDNESS IN THE LOCAL POSITION

Luke 10:20 - 24; Luke 15:22

J.T. These scriptures speak of the value of the saints in the divine eyes; indeed Luke would make much of this side, the saints viewed as the result of the gospel; he leaves us with them in this book as "praising and blessing God". They are seen as essential to what God had in mind. This section, coming in after the transfiguration, views us more as pertaining to heaven. Chapter 9 speaks about the transfiguration and the Lord taking certain up to the mount, and the passage says, "Two men talked with him ... appearing in glory" (verses 30, 31), and the chapter further speaks of His being received up: "When the days of his receiving up were fulfilled" (verse 51). What transpired on the mount implied that, in being received up, He should not be there alone. The disciples were not equal to the position, but there were two there who were equal to it. They appeared in glory, and were in liberty speaking with the Lord as transfigured; because we have to bear in mind that it is as He is now that we are to know Him. We are to know Him and to be like Him. When we shall see Him we shall be like Him; and that implies that we shall be at liberty there and equal to holy converse with the Lord in His present glorified condition. These intervening chapters to the 15th have, I think, in mind the heavenly side of our position, what goes on in heaven, so that the Lord says here, "Rejoice not, that the spirits are subjected to you, but rejoice that your names are written in the heavens". And then, in chapter 15 we have, as we have often noted, the three Persons of the Deity calling for sympathy in this very connection, calling for joyous sympathy.

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The shepherd says, "Rejoice with me, for I have found my lost sheep". The Spirit is seen under the type of the woman who found the lost piece of silver, and says, "Rejoice with me, for I have found the drachma which I had lost". Then the father, typifying God the Father Himself, entering deliberately into merry-making on account of the prodigal returned. So that these passages all point to what the saints are to God, or, as we may say, to the divine Persons; they are all brought into it. Luke, in his further treatise, pursues this thought as to the interventions of heaven, the light from heaven, and the vessel, the sheet, coming down from heaven and drawn up again. It is an amplifying of the same thought, the saints being heavenly, that indeed heaven is intended for them, that without them there would be a blank. That was what I was thinking of, that the saints might come into accord with heaven as to who the saints are, and how all this now takes form in the assembly pending our translation.

Eu.R. Names "written in the heavens".

J.T. Yes. The book is full of holy jubilance, beginning with such persons as Elizabeth and Mary, Zacharias, Simeon and Anna. They are occupied more with Christ as the occasion of the joy, but in these later chapters the saints come into view as also essential to God, so that divine Persons themselves are jubilant over the saints.

Rem. "It was right to make merry;" who did that?

J.T. I take it to be the Father, and the servants are included in that. The whole scene is jubilant in merry-making on account of this return. The bondmen, of course, are not hired servants as the prodigal had thought; he had thought of hired servants, but there are none. The nearer we get to God the less the thought of hired servants appears. God has bondmen, but that means they are like Christ, they are

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there in love. It would take a good few to make a dance (using the figure), the number is left open; the dance was in the house.

-- .S. Was their names being "written in the heavens" something much greater than the spirits subject on earth?

J.T. That is what the Lord points out, I think. He says, "I beheld Satan as lightning falling out of heaven" (verse 18). That was much greater than anything they could speak of, the clearance of heaven; the Lord intimated there that the place designed for them would be cleared of Satan and that their names were there.

Ques. So would the first rejoicing here be the great fact of God having secured through Christ that which would supersede Satan?

J.T. That is how it stands. It says, "In the same hour", meaning that this earlier remark of the Lord's entered into this rejoicing spirit, "in the same hour". The very suggestion of their names written in heaven became the occasion of joy to Him. We are told He "rejoiced in spirit".

Eu.R. And then He wants the disciples to rejoice in that fact. Do we need to ask ourselves as to whether we have taken account of ourselves in this way as citizens of the heavenly city?

J.T. Well, I think we ought to begin to see what we are as first of all coming together in assembly. 1 Corinthians has in mind who we are, "called saints", it says (chapter 1: 2); that we are no less than saints by calling; like Abraham, we are called. We have no saints by calling earlier than that. There were saints, of course, who valued what was there, such as Abel and Enoch; but in Abraham we have a call. So that we are on a higher level; we are called out, and then called into something, into the fellowship of God's Son; and in chapter 12 we are anointed, like

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Abraham too: "Touch not mine anointed ones" (Psalm 105:15). "So also is the Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:12) means that the saints are anointed, hence the interest that heaven has in us as we move toward the assembly; as we leave our houses in view of the assembly, what there is for heaven, even before we sit down. The very walk of the saints, the footsteps of the flock, are delightful to the Lord. Then, in sitting down together, nothing is common. Even the court of the tabernacle is anointed. Whatever is done is under the anointing, nothing is common in what is done, whether it be the announcement of names, or information, or the box, everything takes on that character in the minds of intelligent persons. It is an anointed scene, and heaven so regards it, and we ought to awake in ourselves to the dignity of that even in the wilderness, for that is the point in the tabernacle, it was anointed in the wilderness (the temple was not anointed), everything is hallowed.

Eu.R. So, as we sit down, should that great thought, "the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven" (Hebrews 12:23) be before us?

J.T. Well, quite so, we go on to that, "registered in heaven". The anointing is to dignify us here, I think, and it enters into our intelligence, how we understand, how we look at things. Paul would speak of it as "being enlightened in the eyes of your heart", but John, in his epistle, would say that it implies our intelligence as well.

C.G. Is not this a very remarkable way in which the Lord addressed the Father, "I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and the earth", speaking here as a Man?

J.T. Well, I think He gives us a lead here. The two men were speaking with Him on the mount; now He is speaking with the disciples and viewing them as having status in heaven, and having spoken of that, it says, "In the same hour", as if the thought

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was in His mind; it was not, as it were, just immediate, but in the hour, the thought was in His mind. This thing is taking effect and it is an important matter, and Luke links on with His remark about their names being written in heaven, what follows in the Lord's own spirit. He said to them that they should rejoice, but in that hour, He rejoiced in spirit and turns to the Father about it. He had spoken to them, but it would look as if there was continuance of the thought; it was taking hold in the hour, the idea of the prevalence of a thought, and how the Lord takes it up and speaks to the Father. He does not speak of their names being written in heaven to the Father, but He speaks to the Father of what He had done to these same persons.

Eu.R. Would the intelligence that we receive by the anointing enter into the thought of "revealed them to babes" here?

J.T. I think so. I think the anointing is that which marks us off, as gathering together, apart from current religion around us. There is no such thing as anointing attached to any of these denominational services; it is all man's order and device.

Eu.R. "God has revealed to us by his Spirit" (1 Corinthians 2:10). Would that fill out this dispensation, that these things have come to light, and the believer, as having the Spirit, has the capacity to take them in and respond to them? Would that enter into it?

J.T. Quite so, even in the initial speaking in the assembly the anointing appears, but these things that are revealed and which the Lord speaks of here are, I think, the heavenly side of our position; He connects them with the Father.

Eu.R. In referring to Abraham, have you in mind what came out in Paul's ministry as being more special than the ministry of the twelve?

J.T. Yes, and I think the anointing, while not spoken of in this passage, ought to be kept before us

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as regards the assembly, for some are apt to think that certain things are common, whereas the whole tabernacle is anointed, nothing is common.

Ques. Would it be out of place to ask about the seventy?

J.T. Well, they are the ones that are sent out before Him into every city and place where He intended to come; that would allude to local assembly conditions. These seventy would promote conditions in every city and place to which the Lord was to come, principally in sons of peace. This section we have before us now is to enhance that, and bring the heavenly side into the local setting. So that the Lord returns to the local setting in the end of this chapter, in a certain village and in a certain woman's house. Mary is at His feet; that is, she represents the side of intelligence, of taking in His mind. Then, in the next chapter, He was praying in a certain place and the disciples wanted to be taught how to pray. I think those verses we have read are the heavenly side, between the two thoughts: the seventy being sent out, and the Lord coming back to the idea of a locality, in a certain place. The heavenly side must enter into the local setting.

Eu.R. Both Romans and 1 Corinthians begin with "called saints", or "saints by calling".

J.T. Quite so.

-- .G. Did it add character in that way to the local assembly?

J.T. I think so. I think we have to see, not only that we are gathered according to Corinthians, but that we are heavenly. How can we have conditions for divine Persons here, aside from apprehending Their circumstances up there?

Ques. Would that give that buoyancy you alluded to this morning, the jubilance that enables us to rise?

J.T. I think it does if you lay hold of the heavenly part. That is what the Lord points to, "Rejoice that

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your names are written in the heavens". It not only means our complete deliverance from earthly influences, but that we have come under the influence of the heavenly side, we are partakers of the heavenly calling.

Rem. And rise above the adverse circumstances.

Ques. Have you in mind that we have relations in the wilderness while heavenly in character?

J.T. Yes. The position in the wilderness in our several localities is to take colour from the heavenly; so, before you have any word of the tabernacle being built in Exodus, the saints go up and see the God of Israel; they see what His circumstances were. That is the principle.

Eu.R. How do we arrive at that individually now? As having a place in the local assembly and calling on the Lord in a place, how do we get a glimpse of what is in heaven and persons there in relation one to another?

J.T. Well, according to Exodus, it is a matter of education. Chapter 24 begins with the divine thought that they should go up. The mind of God is a great matter; we are to get that, what His mind is for us. His mind is that they should go up, Moses and Aaron and seventy of the elders of Israel; that is, persons qualified to witness to what is there.

Eu.R. So Mary is taking that in here; is that your suggestion?

J.T. Quite. Three went up in chapter 9, and they saw the glory.

Ques. Do you mean that, as having taken account of God in those heavenly circumstances, we would have a better idea of what is suitable to Him down here?

J.T. That is the exact point in Exodus 24, and indeed it is here in Luke 9 in the transfiguration; they saw what was there, and not only that, but these two men in heavenly dress.

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Rem. So what you are speaking of now supposes we have entered into what is set forth in the transfiguration.

J.T. That is the idea, and Mary is in keeping with what was said on the mount: "This is my beloved Son: hear him", she is hearing Him. And that comes into the assembly, so that we should know what the mind of heaven is. How can we have it save as we hear what the Lord says?

Ques. Is it remarkable that this was spoken to the seventy, and there were seventy elders went up in Exodus 24?

J.T. It is remarkable; what the Lord says is not to the twelve here, but to the seventy.

Ques. Would a company in the gain of it work out, as in 1 Corinthians 14, the prophetic word amongst them? Would that be in a company in a like position to those here who appreciated these things and were in the joy of them, and God was known there?

J.T. Yes, there is the thought of revelation in 1 Corinthians 14:30, "If there be a revelation to another sitting there;" it is the same idea, that the saints are kept going and are heavenly through the things revealed.

Ques. In speaking of the seventy and the twelve, have you anything further in your mind?

J.T. I think it is well to keep in mind Exodus 24, as corresponding with the ninth chapter of this book. There were two men there speaking with the Lord; that is, they saw a state of things in heaven; that in heaven there are men perfectly free in speaking to the great Person, the Lord Jesus. He is transfigured; it is not simply what He was down here, it is what He is up there, and that they are great enough to converse with Him as He is up there. Well, that leads up to what we have here. Then He is about to be received up; we are told in the same chapter that the time

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of "his receiving up" had come. Then, in view of all that, He sends out these seventy persons to every city and place which He intended to visit; meaning that He had in mind coming to localities and finding conditions suitable to Him. Well, that is the suggestion, but then there is this heavenly side intervening; these very seventy persons have their names written in heaven; that is an additional thought. And then, in the end of the chapter, a certain village, and a certain woman receiving Him, and then another one sitting at His feet and listening to Him; what does she represent? She is in accord with what is said on the mount, she is getting all the good therein. He is free to unfold the mind of God; to speak to her, and everything He said she would absorb. What would Mary of Bethany be in the assembly? Luke does not tell us but John does; John gives the full result, what she was in the assembly, as it were, in chapter 12. Then chapter 11 of this book says the Lord is praying in a certain place. Well, what did the disciples see when they saw the Lord praying? They had never seen a man praying like that. The high priest in the temple would not pray like that. No doubt this man had prayed himself, but he saw there was something more, so he says, "Lord, teach us to pray", not 'me', but "us;" he has one mind, the local company.

Ques. Do you think the Lord, in visiting this particular place, found something that was delightful to Him, but He found something that needed adjustment, and prayer would be necessary in connection with that?

J.T. That would be the inference. You can understand it. Supposing the Lord, in the days of His flesh, came to Worcester, or Malvern, or Evesham, and found certain conditions that were not right, what would He do? As a dependent Man, He would pray, and that is what we should do. He prayed in such a way. There is Martha; well, she received

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Him into her house; that is commendable. I suppose the most deranged meeting on earth walking in the light we have, would receive the Lord; but then, what are the conditions? What does He find? Martha received Him, it says expressly, into her house; but He would have been more comfortable outside her house. She began to complain, even about the Lord Himself. Well, what will He do but pray? Who can set this right but God? He prayed, and in praying, the disciples saw there was something that they had not been accustomed to see.

Ques. Would that be where they contemplated His glory?

J.T. Morally speaking it would be.

Ques. Would you see the result of that prayer, in John 12, that things have been adjusted?

J.T. It is just as well to see that, that John supports Paul's line; Luke does not give us results. John does; he gives us much more about Martha and Mary than Luke; in fact Luke only mentions them here. I think Luke is the public condition of things and John brings the same thing out in spite of failure.

Eu.R. When He prays His prayer would take its character from "I praise thee, Father".

J.T. Yes. If you heard the Lord say, "Father", and heard Him praying, and heard what He said, how wonderful! The Lord immediately said, "Father" when He prayed, so that He would bring them into accord with Himself; that is the point, I think; He would say "Father", and they were to say "Father".

Ques. Would the prayer meeting in that way take character from what you are bringing before us, having in view that we should enter into those heavenly circumstances?

J.T. Yes. We ought to bear in mind that the prayer meeting is not only for the expression of our

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needs. Every meeting ought to make room for God to have part in it, to have pleasure in it. It is like the offering of the evening oblation, that there is something like Christ there. Every meeting of the saints ought to afford something for God.

C.G. In verse 22 the Lord seems to go on to the Father and speak of the revelation of the Father; is that in connection with what you are speaking of, preparedness for that, and what God would give?

J.T. Yes, that is the next thing. In that hour He had spoken to His disciples and told them why they should rejoice, not because of power in their ministry, but because of their place in heaven. Then His own spirit is affected, so that He says to the Father, "I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes: yea, Father, for thus has it been well-pleasing in thy sight". He is speaking to His Father of what His Father had done for the disciples, showing what a place they had in His mind; and it is evidently at a considerable time afterwards.

Eu.R. Is the thought of divine pleasure one of the great features of Luke's gospel?

J.T. I think so; that thought of "good pleasure in men" runs through the gospel; but "on earth peace" (Luke 2:14) is given up in the latter part of the gospel. It is replaced by "peace in heaven" as we get it in Luke 19:38. So the divine thoughts are transferred from earth to heaven, and these chapters (10 and 11), following on the transfiguration, have in mind what is to be in localities throughout the world, that there is to be something like heaven in them.

Eu.R. So Paul's ministry takes its shape in the light of the Son of God in heaven; every assembly on earth is set up in the light of that.

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J.T. That is the thought, and, as I said, Exodus 24 greatly helps us, because Jehovah says "Go up" to Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy others. Well, they did not go up immediately, there is something comes in between that suggestion of Jehovah and the actual going up; that is, what had Jehovah said? What were His requirements? Well, Moses immediately goes on to tell them what Jehovah required of them, and they say, "All that Jehovah has said will we do, and obey!" Well now, Moses, representing God, says, 'We can go on with the service'. You cannot go on with it if people are not obedient; the mind of God is plainly asserted, but there is nothing done at all if people are not obedient; that is the ground in the commandment. So immediately they take the ground of obeying, Moses builds an altar and twelve pillars and offers sacrifices, and then they go up.

Ques. Would "the Father who is of heaven" giving "the Holy Spirit to them that ask him" enter into it?

J.T. It would enter into it. "The Father who is of heaven;" He belongs to heaven, so do we, and He gives "Holy Spirit to them that ask him". We are fitted for heaven by the Father who is of heaven giving us the Spirit, "Such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones" (1 Corinthians 15:48).

Ques. Would the way Joshua is presented as the attendant of Moses give us the idea of the way we can enter into it?

J.T. Yes, he represents that side, that youthful, attentive, absorbent side; he stays, the others go back again, but they go with the sense that they had seen the God of Israel and He had not laid His hand on them. They are called elders when they go up, but afterwards they are called nobles, meaning we are ennobled as heavenly and thus fitted for heavenly conditions here.

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Ques. Is it like God saying, "Make me a sanctuary that I may dwell among them;" is that what we have here in Luke?

J.T. I think so. God's thought is very wide, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace;" but the earthly side is abandoned as we get further on; it is the heavenly side, which is christianity.

Eu.R. Heaven's best.

J.T. That is right, that is where chapter 15 comes in.

Rem. If we learn to be marked by what marked the Lord in that hour, it will prevent us treating anything as common.

J.T. Yes. It is "in that hour;" an hour is short; give full scope to Christ, and see what He will do! He told them to rejoice because their names were written in heaven, and then the thought develops that ought to enter into the assembly, a development of thought. So He rejoices in spirit and says, "I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes". Not that 'Thou wilt do it', but He takes account of them as having already received the revelation.

Ques. Is the revelation to babes going on now?

J.T. Well, we must not assume that christianity is not complete at any time, but there is the thought of things coming to us and our being brought into things.

Ques. What are "the things" that are spoken of, "the things that ye see"?

J.T. The Lord carries the thought on. Notice He speaks to them first, then to His Father, and then He turns to them, as much as to say, 'You are of the utmost importance in these matters;' so that we are to learn what the saints are in their heavenly relations, how important they are; they are essential to what God has in His mind; He turns to them.

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Ques. When they were on the mount it says they "were oppressed with sleep", and it was as "having fully awoke up they saw his glory;" can you help us as to how we might keep awake?

J.T. "Wake up, thou that sleepest, and arise up from among the dead, and the Christ shall shine upon thee" (Ephesians 5:14); we are in danger of sleeping. It is very remarkable that that is said to the Ephesians, the most intelligent company; so our intelligence does not keep us from going to sleep. Eutychus goes to sleep in that same connection.

Eu.R. You mean the awakening in Ephesians would be to the heavenly position, and Eutychus falls from that.

J.T. That is the setting in Acts 20.

Eu.R. It is very remarkable it says, "Having fully awoke up they saw his glory, and the two men".

J.T. Yes, we must bear that in mind, these two men, they are mentioned twice.

Eu.R. Would you say a little now as to chapter 15?

J.T. Well, we get the Father's side in that chapter figuratively. It is not simply that we have heavenly status, but we have garments suitable, "the best robe", there is only one; it is not 'one of the best robes', it is "the best robe".

Ques. What is it?

J.T. It is well to take one thought first of all, that it is the best one. It is brought out and it is put on; the prodigal does not put it on. Ephesians and Colossians contemplate our putting on the new man; it is not that, although the new man down here is a reflection of it; it is a question of what is done in heaven, "Bring out the best robe". I apprehend that it is God clothing us with Christ, what He is now, not what He was, but what He is. "We shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2). It would not be easy to bring it down to the mental

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thought, it is a great thought; seeing there is only one and that it is brought out, it must be a supreme thought. And the idea of clothes, God clothing us, directs us back to Genesis 3, how God clothes suitably; it was needful then, that the first clothing we read of as made by God should be of skins. Clothes of skins do not give the idea of ornamentation, but of moral necessity. With the Dorcas-made clothes there is no suggestion that she made them of skins, but the next passage says that Peter was in the house of a tanner and looking out on the sea; the gospel is in mind in its universal bearing, and the clothing implied would be through death, a moral necessity. But the best robe is not a moral necessity, it is a heavenly necessity; God requires that dignity in His presence.

Rem. It is the bondmen who have to put it on.

J.T. Yes. It says, "The father said to his bondmen, Bring out the best robe and clothe him in it;" "his bondmen".

Ques. What does that refer to at the present time?

J.T. I think it is a question of those who move in love. "I love my master, my wife, and my children" (Exodus 21:5). This is a love scene, but there is the dignity that God, as viewed here, requires. "Bring out the best robe and clothe him in it".

Eu.R. Is the best robe at all akin to "taken us into favour in the Beloved"?

J.T. Well, I think we ought to go to Paul and John for the best robe. John says, "What we shall be has not yet been manifested", as if there was something yet to be disclosed, but "if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2). I think that suggests the best robe.

Eu.R. John actually gives us our place as children in his epistle, but that involves sonship. Is that the thought, that seeing Him as He is involves sonship?

J.T. That is the thought.

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Eu.R. But you mean in the assembly we are to anticipate that?

J.T. Yes. Paul saw Him as He was, a heavenly Christ.

Eu.R. So, if we came into the gain of what the Lord Jesus said in chapter 10, "Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see", we should take account of things in that way; we should clothe the saints with this thought as being essential; heaven's best.

J.T. Quite so, as laying hold of it yourself. The bondmen bring it out under the father's direction and clothe him in it. That is, I clothe the saints, in so far as I may, in my mind or in service, with this great thought, that it is not simply the Christ that was; the Person is unchanged, but the condition is changed. So that the apostle Paul says, "We henceforth know no one according to flesh; but if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer. So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new" (2 Corinthians 5:16, 17). These are the bondmen who are leading us into this great thought.

Eu.R. John and Paul.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. And it is not till the best robe is on that the Father rejoices over him.

J.T. That shows we are to be in the light of this in the assembly; you clothe me and I clothe you with these great thoughts, so he says, "Let us eat and make merry", and he says, "it was right" we should do it too; he defends it.

Eu.R. So it would not be happy to bring in any lower thought in the assembly than this.

J.T. That is the thought. Let us learn to clothe one another with this great thought, the best robe; it is in that setting the father makes merry, "Let us ...

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make merry;" and how full of satisfaction he is, although he must have felt the elder brother's attitude deeply, but the dancing does not cease in spite of the elder brother's attitude; the dancing went on. God is not going to be debarred from His joy by such an influence as the elder brother's.

Eu.R. We have to judge the tendency to this in ourselves.

J.T. Well, I think there is a good deal of this goes on amongst us, a good deal of complaint and criticism as to this heavenly side of things, and the chapter is intended to rebuke this. The father is in grace, but he does not call the elder brother 'son', just "child", he has lost his dignity.

Eu.R. So what you are speaking of is what belongs to full growth.

J.T. What is inside is sonship. The elder brother has lost his dignity; the Jew is owned as having God outwardly, but he has lost his dignity; sonship does not belong to him, although it did primarily. Paul says, "Whose is the adoption" (Romans 9:4), but he has lost it.

Ques. Does Paul show his skill as a bondman in clothing the saints as he did at Corinth?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Does the best robe include clothing the saints with thoughts of sonship?

J.T. Yes, it does; it is really what Christ is. The condition is the point, that we do not know Christ as He was then, but we are to know Him as He is now, and we are to be like Him as He is now; so the apostle says, "I do not count to have got possession myself; but ... I pursue, looking towards the goal" (Philippians 3:13, 14).

Ques. Is the house of God in view here?

J.T. Quite so, it is what is here on earth that is in mind, the heavenly thing brought down to earth

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within the hearing of the elder brother, and it goes on; God will not be stopped by any critical attitude.

C.G. It was wonderful grace on the part of God the Father, going out and entreating him.

J.T. Yes, it is just Luke's line, clothing the gospel with all this; and I always think this gospel is so suitable for young christians; they perhaps think we are very doleful. This passage is to show there is much music and dancing.

Ques. Why does he say to the elder brother, "All that is mine is thine"?

J.T. He is giving the Jew full credit, what he had claimed. He is not openly disinheriting him yet, it is to bring out the grace side, and how it is supported by the joy within. Why should I forgo that? It is to bring out how patient God was and how inexcusable the Jews' attitude was.

Eu.R. In John 20 they had the doors shut for fear of the Jews.

J.T. That is another side; that is a question of refusing the Jewish element amongst us.

Rem. So that we might be free in sonship and rejoice, as you were saying this morning.

J.T. Yes. He entreated him to come in, but, if he comes in, it must be on God's terms, that is assumed.

Ques. How would you convey the idea of this music and dancing to the young people?

J.T. Well, the best way, I suppose, is to be in the enjoyment of it oneself. I think the Lord's people are showing they are enjoying it in the way they get together now. They are not doleful-looking; you look at their countenances in the meeting and they show plainly they are enjoying what is presented. I think that is the way.

Rem. That would be a cure for the development of Laodicean conditions.

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J.T. Yes, not lukewarm. The assembly really is a reflection of heaven.

Eu.R. Heaven's joy.

J.T. Yes, that is the thought.

Ques. Are those outside to hear this joy?

J.T. That is the idea, that is what Luke presents; it is what is brought within man's range. You take Acts 2, they seemed to be full of new wine, and the first great gospel address of christianity was to meet a criticism. What was that? That the saints were enjoying something; how simple that was! Men were saying they were full of new wine, and they were full of new wine spiritually! That is the very thing Peter took up; the joy of the saints.

Rem. That is open to all of us. Did the prisoners in the prison at Philippi hear that?

J.T. Yes, it says "the prisoners listened to them" (Acts 16:25).

Eu.R. Peter could refer to these men; they were round him, their faces radiant with heavenly joy.

J.T. Just so.

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THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY IN EVERY DISPENSATION

1 Corinthians 14:23 - 25; Jude 14, 15; Genesis 20:7 (first sentence)

What is in mind is to speak about prophecy, and, in order to show its applicability to the present time, I would cite a passage from Revelation which says that "the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus" (Revelation 19:10), the spirit of it. So that, whilst there may be no ground for assuming that there are prophets today, we may assume that there is the spirit of prophecy, and that suffices. It certainly existed as spoken of in the book of Revelation, a book intended for the saints in our dispensation peculiarly and having special application at the present time. Another thought that comes out in Revelation, which helps as to the spirit of prophecy is in the word to John in chapter 10. It will be remembered that in that chapter our Lord Jesus is seen under the figure of a strong angel come down, putting his right foot on the sea and his left on the land, with a little opened book in His hand. That little opened book contained what would be an occasion or cause for bitter feelings on the part of all those who love God and love His people, for it implied much suffering for them. The history of Western Europe, as it is about to be fulfilled, dear brethren, will involve much suffering for God's people at the time, the history indeed of the world, speaking generally, and the prophet is directed to take the little book out of the hand of the angel, that is, out of the hand of Christ as the rightful Proprietor of the earth, who is about to deal with all that is contrary to Him, and the prophet was to take it and eat it, which he did. It was sweet, he tells us, in his mouth, but in his belly

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bitter. He valued it as disclosing the divine mind, but felt it in its consequences, as Elisha of old felt what the king of Syria would do to his people, although it was the mind of God that he should do it. The man of God wept, and John feels bitterly what should be occasioned by the contents of the book as carried out, and it is said to him, "Thou must prophesy again as to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings" (Revelation 10:11). That is, as we feel things, as we feel what the mind of God implies, what His just government implies, we are morally qualified to prophesy. We may do it once and become disqualified, for God is patient with His servants and gives them opportunities, but it always tests as we have opportunities, and in answering to the test our opportunities continue, otherwise we may be deprived of them. Hence the word is, "Thou must prophesy again". One would not like to be deprived of any advantage in service, any opportunity, for want of feeling. God looks for feeling servants, and as they feel things with Him, they continue to serve, they are morally qualified, so that, as acquiring such feelings, dear brethren, we may hope for not only the spirit of prophecy, but prophecy itself.

So I selected first of all this passage in Corinthians, because it deals with prophecy as exercised among christians. The Lord has revived the practice contemplated in this chapter, He has revived the thought of the chapter, and brethren have adopted it with considerable encouragement, and I believe that, as it is understood and the necessity for it, there will be more encouragement. As we feel things as they exist, as we judge things as they exist, as we discern the needs amongst the saints as they exist, we shall prophesy again, and these meetings will take on greater significance. They not only require feeling, but also confidence in one another and the esteeming of each other better than oneself, so that, if there be something

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revealed to one sitting by, we give way. Heaven is in charge of all these matters; and by the Spirit a sure representation of heaven here may intervene suddenly with something urgent, for we have the word "the Spirit speaks expressly" (1 Timothy 4:1). There are general communications and express ones; we must be ready for both. So that if the whole assembly come together in one place according to this chapter, there is scope for the Spirit to speak, and for that, as I said, there must not only be feeling, but confidence in one another and an esteeming of each other better than ourselves, a readiness thus to give way as the Spirit moves. The assembly is assumed in this epistle to be a spiritually delicate, sensitive instrument, so to speak, its members interdependent upon one another, the Spirit actuating all in perfect unity, and in the dignity of the anointing. So that in considering this chapter, dear brethren, the idea of prophecy strikes you. I think the word for it, in different forms, is found something like ten times in this chapter, showing how much it is in the mind of the Spirit, and how it was intended to come down as an assembly furnishing and provision. We have no mention of elders in the epistle. What is stressed is the organism, involving that each member, each christian, is sensibly responsive, and intelligently so too, and feelingly so, so that there is no room for inertness, but intelligent energetic sympathy, whether we may speak or otherwise; for in this very chapter the sisters are enjoined to be silent in the assemblies. That does not mean that they do not contribute, far otherwise! The appointed gifts will draw upon them automatically, so to speak; in virtue of the organism it must be so. What is in mind in all this stress upon prophecy is, of course, the edifying of the assembly, but that God may be known as in us, and that it is of a truth, not only to ourselves but to others, for the point of view in this

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epistle is that the doors are open, not as in John 20 closed for fear of the Jews. They are open, and, in the power of the anointing, the assembly is preserved from evil intrusion; so much so that, in the spirit of prophecy, an unbeliever (or unbelievers, or those who are simple) coming in, falls down, he is convicted of all and judged of all; he falls down! A mighty triumphant result of the service, of prophecy, not that there is gift there simply, but that God is there, beloved. Much greater than gift!

Well now, I want to show that this service of prophecy has marked God in all His dispensations; hence I read in Jude because he refers to Enoch representing this service in the antediluvian world; God had it then. I have no doubt it was there in others besides Enoch, but it was there, and points to what I have been saying, that God would assert Himself. Indeed the principle is seen in His first movement as sin came in, the enemy attacked and God would be at no disadvantage from the moral point of view, so that His voice is heard walking in the garden, not His steps, but His voice. Then we find that Adam, as clothed by God (wonderful grace that he was clothed by God!) calls, we are told, his wife's name Eve, meaning that she was the mother of all living, meaning life. That has a prophetic significance, that, instead of death, there should be life; a very great fact. Adam knew that; he had been accustomed to give names now, he had indeed given Eve a name before, but not this one; nor is she brought to him here to give her a name as she was before; it is his own matter, evidently the outcome of light in his soul, this name that he gives his wife, Eve. And no doubt Seth was on this line of prophesying in calling his son's name Enosh. It was the announcement of a man who knew, who was with God manifestly, and would let it be known that he was with God, and that his son was not going to be brought

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up for this world, he was a poor dying creature. How that asserted, in its measure, God, that is God in His government, and the light shone and men began, we are told, "to call on the name of Jehovah". An excellent result! But Enoch is the one whom the Spirit of God specially mentions as prophesying in regard to certain persons, indeed of persons that we have to do with today, for Jude is dealing with the apostasy in christendom. Not with the antediluvian apostasy in Cain and his descendants, but with the apostasy that we have to do with, beloved brethren. The Spirit of God conveniently brings Enoch in and tells us that he prophesied of these, showing how long a look-out God had and how He made provision and served us by an antediluvian prophet. May we not assume that there was much of this service rendered by this man Enoch? It is not mentioned here as something exceptional with him, something that was unusual to him. It is mentioned in the most remarkable way that Enoch, "the seventh from Adam, prophesied also as to these", the Spirit of God alluding to his spiritual history, the seventh from Adam; that is, a man of exercise, an accumulative kind of man who would profit by, and observe, the government of God. His name indeed is indicative of discipline, and where discipline is, and accepted from God, we may be sure that we shall speak of God and represent God and bring Him in, in the way of rebuke of evil. For if I, through discipline, disallow evil in myself, I am not going to license it in others. So that he had a judgment about the conditions that prevailed, he was walking with God; how could he walk with God without a judgment of things? He judged things and he spoke of them, and he is brought in to serve us by the apostle Jude. He says, "Behold, the Lord has come amidst his holy myriads", a lone man, as far as Scripture records, speaks of holy myriads and the Lord coming with them to

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deal with evil. So that Enoch is brought in as a great help to us and a stimulus too, so that we should, as walking with God, or professing to walk with God, have a judgment about things, not only as among the brethren, but among the nations. For we must have an eye for what is current if we are with God, the mystery of iniquity having been working all these centuries. Hence in that book of Revelation, God says He "has judged your judgment upon her". We may be sure that the flood had some reference to Enoch, that God judged his judgment on the antediluvian wickedness. May we not assume, beloved, that Enoch spoke to God about these things? He did; he walked with God, he pleased God. God does not walk with dumb people. He says, "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well" (Exodus 4:14). Need I say that God heard him speak? Not such speaking as the world expects, as, for instance, among the Greeks, but such speaking as God values. "I know that he can speak well", God says; and so, "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him". But we have the testimony of him brought down the ages by the Spirit of God. "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied also as to these, saying, Behold, the Lord has come amidst his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all; and to convict all the ungodly of them of all their works of ungodliness, which they have wrought ungodlily, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him". Note the word 'ungodly' in these verses.

Now I go on to Abraham to show that, whilst with Enoch we have the condemnation of the world, and Noah is but the counterpart of Enoch, he condemned the world by the building of the ark; with Abraham we have the world, as I might say, in reconciliation, not for condemnation, although Sodom

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was condemned and that as a testimony, but Abraham is called out, and God says, "I will ... bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing ... and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" (Genesis 12:2, 3). How would Abraham look at the world? He would look out upon it with an evangelical eye, as we should now. Whilst we have our judgment of the world as it is exposed, yet it is in reconciliation; God has not changed His mind, the gospel is on that ground. So that there is another phase of our position, dear brethren, and the prophetic ministry has that in mind, that God is amongst us, that God is here in the assembly as a Saviour God, a very great matter. And so God says to Abimelech of Abraham, "He is a prophet". It never occurred to Abimelech doubtless that he was any such thing, nor does it occur to our neighbours, our business acquaintances and the world generally, that anything of the kind attaches to us; but God lets people know about us. Is it not a matter of great interest to Him that there are people in this city who know Him, and who love Him, and who pray to Him constantly? Is that not a matter of great consequence to Him? It is one of the greatest things to Him, and this city is taken up in that relation. They are few, to be sure, as the psalmist says, "They were a few men in number, of small account, and strangers in it. And they went from nation to nation, from one kingdom to another people. He suffered no man to oppress them, and reproved kings for their sakes, Saying, Touch not mine anointed ones, and do my prophets no harm" (Psalm 105:12 - 15). That is the position today, the world is in reconciliation. That is to say, God is holding it in that way so as to present Christ to it as a Saviour, so that there should be nothing to prejudice the gospel, and surely we should bear that in mind that we should not prejudice the gospel, but

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that, on the contrary, we pray for kings and all in authority, and for our neighbours and business acquaintances; we let them know that we are their friends. God says, "He is a prophet, and will pray for thee;" if God tells the people in this city that there are those in it who will pray for them, as it were, how sorrowful if they do not! But Abraham did, he actually did pray for Abimelech, and God answered him for Abimelech; God was dealing with that man Abimelech. He says, 'I knew your mind; I kept you from sinning against Me'. Do you not think God is doing that now? I do. God is a faithful Creator, He is the "preserver of all men", and He operates in men and speaks to men in His own way, and He tells them about the prophets. He tells them about those who pray and He says, 'Do not do them any harm'. Is that not the secret of what we have today, that we are free to meet as we are now and speak to one another, no man forbidding it? What is the secret of that? God says, 'Do not do them any harm;' He has His own way of doing that. It does not say God told Abraham to pray for Abimelech, He knew he would; so he prayed for him and God answered him, so Abimelech's household was healed and they were to bear, that is to say, there was to be a continuance of those men. They are not looked at as enemies, but as in reconciliation. God is their God and would bless them, and He would have us to be a blessing.

One could go on at length to point out that this principle of prophecy is in all the dispensations, so that when we come down to the ministry, that is to Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, we have it again. While God is to be known evangelically, He is to be known ministerially, if you understand me. He is not known ministerially in the hierarchy of this country, nor in any hierarchy, today; it is a question of what the ministers are that He identifies

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Himself with. Moses and Aaron represent the ministers, Moses was a highly disciplined man. Aaron was too, although we have no mention of his discipline. We only get his name, as he was eighty-three years old, but he is given to Moses as a man who can speak well, and withal, a man who has a brother's heart, a very great matter in ministry so that I am not a rival of my brother in my service. God is not in that, we may be sure, but He is with ministers who love one another who support one another, and who serve together. The first great service rendered by Moses and Aaron brought out worship from the saints; could anything justify the selection more than that? God was with them, so much so that He says to Moses, "I have made thee God to Pharaoh" (not 'a God' ). The reality of the presence of God will be there, and He says, "Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet". The word may not be so full, but there it is, Aaron would speak instead of Moses, but Moses would be God. What a testimony was presented to Pharaoh, and was it not grace? It was, but still with a view to judgment, alas, for, "For this very cause have I raised thee up", says God, "to shew thee my power" (Exodus 9:16). But still, there was the testimony that God was there, in a prophetic way, in these two men.

Now that is God, dear brethren, known in the ministry; and significantly Moses says in Deuteronomy 18:15, "Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me". So did he answer to the mind of God that he was a full type, we might say, of Christ personally, He is to be "like me". And this prophet is not like Sinai; it is not the way things were at Sinai for he is to be, raised up "from the midst of thee", and Jehovah said, "He shall speak unto them all that I shall command him". And so right down we get it; in the book of Judges we get it; in Samuel we get it, in relation to royalty, indeed the idea

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greatly increases under the kings. That is to say, God would keep Himself before men, that He was there. How one could illustrate this from such men as Nathan, and Gad, and Samuel, and a host of others, even unnamed prophets. One says, "I hid a hundred men of Jehovah's prophets by fifty in a cave" (1 Kings 18:13). Such was the abundance of the prophetic testimony on God's part that He would assert Himself in all the dispensation; and right down in post-captivity days. What men we have in Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi and others; until we come to New Testament times when we have a prophetess and others; and then the great Prophet! How one's heart rests with satisfaction in the great Prophet, that is Jesus! And hence it goes on, the Holy Spirit coming down, and the exalted Christ above "has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers" (Ephesians 4:11); that is the order. The prophets have a part in the foundation, but the spirit of prophecy runs on. You can well understand that the meeting contemplated in this chapter in 1 Corinthians does not refer to foundational work. The foundation had been laid, Paul says so expressly: "As a wise architect, I have laid the foundation, but another builds upon it" (1 Corinthians 3:10); and the building went on in this chapter, the prophetic ministry to edify; but how? That God was there, that we are not working without God: "Unless Jehovah build the house, in vain do its builders labour in it; unless Jehovah keep the city, the keeper watcheth in vain" (Psalm 127:1). The prophet brings God in, and he would say to every meeting, 'If God be not here the meeting is useless'. We must bring God in, and that is the point God would have us to understand, that He asserts His rights and His place amongst us. The prophet considers for God and his ministry brings God in; the effect is that even an unbeliever falls down and

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acknowledges "that God is indeed amongst you". And it is "indeed;" it is no mere theoretic idea that God is among us; how great a fact that is! It is not beyond us, we are proving it, dear brethren, but let it continue; as I was saying. "Thou must prophesy again", we have always to look out for 'again'. As the Lord may be pleased to leave us here a few years longer, who is to carry on? It is well to keep that in mind; and, if the testimony is to be continued it is in the spirit of prophecy, the testimony of Jesus. And if I am to serve in this way, I must be with God, like Enoch, like Abraham, like Moses, and like all the prophets. Many of them are called 'men of God', the idea runs alongside prophecy. How can I represent God save as I am with God? And, as I am with God, I say I must bring God in, and it is the prophet who brings God in, in this sense, that is in ministry. So that, dear brethren, these meetings that are alluded to are, to my mind, very significant and very important. They are to be taken up, I believe, from the standpoint of my remarks, from the standpoint of these scriptures. It is a question of God asserting Himself as with His people; not simply helping His people, but that He has rights amongst them, that He likes to be with them, and that He wishes to be known as with them. It is the salvation of people to know that He is with us, so may God bless these meetings that He may be with us until the end.

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CHILDREN AS MATERIAL FOR THE ASSEMBLY

Matthew 11:25, 26; Matthew 18:1 - 5; Matthew 21:15 - 17

J.T. It is possibly known to many of us that the references to children are comparatively numerous in this gospel. We are not concerned this afternoon with the subject in a literal sense -- children are alluded to literally, of course -- but the teaching in mind refers to christians. In view of its peculiar significance as the assembly gospel, it is important to consider the bearing of the subject of children on the assembly as presented in this gospel, whether those who are represented as children have part in the assembly service, and whether, if we see that they have, it may not bear on the teaching of children, that is, literal children or young people. Whether the point reached, for instance, in chapter 21, should not be in mind in our instruction for young people, or young christians, because the chapter contemplates them as praising, thus carrying on divine service, when those from whom it should have been expected officially were not carrying it on. It is touching that Matthew in chapter 2 brings in Rachel as weeping for her children, showing that the subject is not treated literally but in its spiritual bearing. In the murder of the infants or young children in Bethlehem, sorrow is connected with Rachel; and then there is so much made of the Lord Himself in that chapter as a little Child. Luke speaks of Him both as a little Child, and as a Babe, and as a Boy of twelve; but Matthew speaks of Him as a little Child and shows Him, as a little Child, to be the object of the supreme care of heaven. That is, not only because of what He was personally -- though there was that -- but relatively, because all children viewed spiritually are the objects

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of heaven's care. As it says in chapter 18, "Their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven" (verse 10). These remarks are only to bring out the importance of the persons in mind, viewing children literally, whether they are in our minds in the instruction accorded as to them as standing in relation to God and the assembly, or whether we regard them potentially as having that in mind.

H.F.N. In the prophet Isaiah 11:6, we read, "A little child shall lead them". Does that bear on what you have in mind?

J.T. It does. I suppose it is brought in there to show what will come about in God's holy mountain, and what should now, I suppose, come about in the assembly; that is what a little child may do, and they should not be segregated in our minds in their instruction.

H.F.N. Have you in mind that the children are really viewed as assembly material for the service of praise?

J.T. That is exactly what I had in mind, and chapter 21 shows how that comes about normally, as you might say. There is no fleshly effort to bring about anything in them, no special pressure brought to bear upon them, but the word is the children were "crying in the temple and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David". That is, they were using a term which spiritually is a very great term in this gospel. The blind men in chapter 9 say, "Have mercy on us, Son of David". It is an acclamation attaching to Christ that these children use. Where did they get it? It is not put into their mouths; apparently it is there by instruction.

W.J.H. Do you suggest they got it in the temple itself though they were children? The Spirit of God has recorded that they were saying it in the temple, the place of light and instruction.

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J.T. How did they come to raise their voices in the temple? It is no question of a Sunday-school; it is the temple. How did they acquire the instinct and the courage to use such terms in the temple of God?

W.J.H. Is not the indication that the Lord had heard, also very encouraging, "Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus says to them, Yea".

J.T. He heard it. I suppose the leading men there would have assumed it was out of place. That seems to be the inference here. The Lord says, 'I heard it:' there is not the slightest hint that He resented their part in the thing; in fact they were supplying what the priests and scribes should have supplied.

Ques. Is there any significance in the fact that the blind and the lame were coming to Him at that time? I was thinking of what you said, that those who ought to praise were not there; was it because they were blind and lame morally?

J.T. Well, they came to Him in the temple and He healed them; we have to connect the healing of the blind and lame with those who were praising. But we are anticipating. What has been said about this chapter is only to bring out what is in mind in the subject in this book. The first thing is to have before us what a child is in the mind of heaven. What a blessed holy Child Jesus was in the mind of heaven, the "little child", as He is called in this gospel. Chapter 11 brings out that the disciples accepted the public reproach as not knowing anything, for that is what is meant, and that the Father reveals things to them. He hides some things from the wise and prudent and reveals them to babes.

Ques. How does Hebrews 2:13 link up with this, "Behold, I and the children which God has given me"?

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J.T. I think it links up with it. Of course it is a quotation from the prophet Isaiah; the Lord speaks of them clothed with those thoughts. They had that great dignity of being His children. But chapter 11 of Matthew shows that they are small and of no account. If it be a question of knowledge they are not worth thinking of, yet God selects them for His revelation.

P.H. In the previous part of the chapter there is a reference made to a little one in the kingdom of the heavens (verse 11); then in verse 19 there is the mention of the children of wisdom. Do these two thoughts bear at all upon your suggestion?

J.T. Yes, they do. The Lord is surely alluding in verse 11 to the new order of things. Greater than John the baptist is a very wonderful thought. We read in Zechariah 12:8 of one being like David among the inhabitants of Jerusalem. The thought of the children of wisdom, of course, is simple enough; it refers to christians characteristically, I suppose, fully unfolded in the Acts of the apostles: "Wisdom has been justified of all her children". Then the word the Lord uses in speaking to His Father is a very diminutive word -- 'babes;' it alludes not surely to literal babes, but to persons who would be regarded by the leading religious class as incapable of knowing anything. That means that the saint has to accept reproach; it means that we have not to be vying with our neighbours in regard to learning, when it is a question of the things of God. I think learning is doing a great deal of mischief amongst the saints, and it is often because there is a desire to make a show on those lines.

A.J.G. Is this intended to make us realise how far superior the saints are, as having the light of divine things, to the world and all that is in it?

J.T. I think that is what is meant by the Lord: "Yea, Father: for thus has it been well-pleasing in thy

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sight". The Father has thought it out in that way, and He has taken up very unlikely persons to unfold His things to. There is no accounting for it save by the sovereign mercy of God. You cannot account for it because of the persons themselves for they are just babes.

McL. Is the point in regard of this matter, the extent to which the human mind can go; it leaves all these things hidden? The range of things that belongs to heaven and to the interests of God on earth is entirely due to a movement on the part of God.

J.T. If God hides, as He does here, it is not presented as if they were incapable of taking things in, but it is a judicial action on the part of God. The refusal of christianity in modern times implies that God is acting judicially. Where the light of christianity was, it exists no longer to a very great extent. It means God is hiding, hence the great need for the acceptance externally of the babe attitude, that there is no pretence to know, no pretence to dig into the originals (not that any one who can should not, but making no point of that). The point is the sovereignty of the Father in selecting such persons whom the Lord calls babes.

Rem. It says in John's epistle that the babes know the Father, but that could hardly be said of the wise and prudent.

J.T. Quite so. "I write to you, little children, because ye have known the Father" -- that alludes just to their stature in christianity. I mean to say, it has to be understood contextually. John's epistle opens up the subject of 'children' perhaps more than any epistle, but the idea formally attaches to christians. He begins his second and third epistles by speaking of himself as an elder, an elder that is entitled morally to speak of christians in that way.

Ques. Then they have an unction from the

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Holy One and are independent of the learning you are speaking of. Have you in mind that we are to get things by impressions?

J.T. Well, the Spirit dwells on "yourselves" in that verse in John's epistle, as much as to say, 'You christians, just pause for a moment and think of yourselves, think of what you are as compared with what others are'. And, if you stop to think of it, how wonderful it is that you have the anointing which teaches you all things and is the truth. We christians do not stop much to think of what we are, what we are called to, what we are by the work of God, and what we are by the anointing.

P.H. Babes would have development in view all the time.

J.T. I think so; they are not grown up. There is a word for children that includes the grown-up in John's epistle, and in this gospel too. But the word 'babe' is relative, it is used to remind us that we must accept the stigma of not knowing much; we must accept it, for from their point of view we do not know much.

H.F.N. Is that the beginning of the material for the assembly as coming out in chapter 16 -- the thought of the babe?

J.T. I think so, it is a question of the Father's choice. The Lord Jesus is praising about it; He is jubilant about it that God is now on this line and using persons like this. Well, I want to be in that. "I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes. Yea, Father, for thus has it been well-pleasing in thy sight". It is a most beautiful position at this juncture; the ground is so beautifully cleared and the position of the saints set out and the Father's sovereignty, and all now is to be worked out on this line.

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Ques. You have spoken about learning and education -- would the babes come to light as those who come to Christ and learn from Him?

J.T. They are viewed here as capable of having things revealed to them. It is not so much the power they have of reception, but that the Father has approached them and caused things to be made known to them. But then we have other passages that show that the christian characteristically comes to Christ, like Mary of Bethany and many others; the man, for instance, in Decapolis who was sitting, clothed and in his right mind, at the feet of Jesus, which would mean he was ready to learn.

Ques. Do you take it that the babes in Matthew 11 refer to the spirit that should abide with us from the beginning to the end of our days?

J.T. I think so. What I find is, the nearer I get to God, the more I say, What am I? Why should I be taken up? The babe attitude precludes, at all times, arrogating anything to oneself; it is a question of God and what He has done. That is what eternity will be, what God has done; He has brought about a world for Himself, and that is the attitude of the saints, they give God His place. The Lord is giving Him that place here, He says, "Father". If the Lord were pleased to say, 'You children must go and learn and take up a certain curriculum for your education in these things' -- well, that could be done, too. But God does not prescribe that; christendom does, but God does not, and I do not want to interfere with that. I want to give God His sovereign place in the selection of the persons to whom He will reveal His mind.

Ques. Do the words in Ecclesiastes 12:12 bear on that, "Much study is a weariness of the flesh"?

J.T. I think so. It is not that we should not study; from another point of view, we are told to

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give ourselves wholly to these things. Laziness is abominable to God. But it is a question of the way things are done, the divine standpoint; how His sovereignty selects a certain way, and the Lord rejoiced in it! That is the position today.

Ques. Is not the object in view oftentimes the difficulty in learning?

J.T. Well, the object in view often defeats the end. Perhaps we have in view to acquire knowledge and to be able to take a lead amongst the brethren; but God would not have us on that line. It is a question of what God sovereignly reveals. He has revealed things to babes, and the more we get with God the more we say, 'God has done it'.

Rem. When the Lord asked Peter, "Who do ye say that I am?" he said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens".

J.T. That is in keeping with this; it is in the same gospel. The more you know God and the nearer you are to Him, the more you attribute to Him and the less to yourself. The knowledge of God is the great thought unquestionably, one is to glory in this, that he understands and knows God; but there are things also, "Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes". There is a great range of things opened up to us in the teaching of God, and babes are able to take that in.

H.F.N. Peter refers to the "pure mental milk of the word" as the appropriate food for new born babes.

J.T. Let us not forget that babes are supposed to have a mind, for this matter we are dealing with is constitutional, it is a question as to whether there is that in us which is contemplated here that God can reveal things to, so the mind comes into it. Romans

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makes a great deal of the mind. In leading up to it, the apostle says, "I myself with the mind serve God's law" (Romans 7:25). It is the mind being subject that is morally the great thing that underlies all this, the mind being subjected to the teaching of God.

Ques. Is that how we enter into this, by the mind being subjected?

J.T. There is no other way; subjection must come in before you can have a teachable mind.

McL. Is your thought that in this first passage, while there is a certain mind from which things are hidden, there is another to which things can be revealed; and the Lord has great delight in this thought of babes, for they suggest what might come to light as assembly material?

J.T. That is what I am thinking of, for we have in chapter 11 the basis of chapter 21. Where did these children get such thoughts about Jesus? Who conveyed these thoughts to them? That is, I think, what we have to keep before us, so that in chapter 18 the question is raised, "Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens?" I picture the Lord saying, 'Is there anybody here to exemplify this thought?' Well, a little child will if he is here. So He calls one to Him and sets him in the midst of them. Spiritually that would mean a brother who was advancing on those lines.

McL. That is what we become, is it not? The point is, if this thing is to come to pass we have to become little children.

J.T. To be converted and to become as little children.

Ques. Is it your exercise that we should discover how to fill out the purpose for which we have been formed?

J.T. That is how it works out. The Father selects His pupils: "They shall be all taught of

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God". Then there is the sovereign selection which the Lord alludes to here, and any of us can say spiritually, 'For this cause I was born: my birth was not an accident'. If God has begun over again, as John says, in new birth, then everyone is born for a purpose.

L.M. Will you say a word as to the difference between teaching and the Father's revelation, what the Father reveals?

J.T. I think it is important to call attention to the distinction, for revealing is not teaching. Teaching in the case of God, or of Christ is, of course, based on what They are as divine Persons, but teaching by any of us is based on gift. Revelation is entirely confined to divine Persons, They only can reveal, but many can teach. Teaching is a power, it is gift, but it may be by divine Persons; it is the same principle, I think, that a thing that is intended to be in your mind is forced into it by power. Revelation is revelation: I may not understand it; Peter did not understand the full bearing of the revelation, I am sure, though he confessed that the Person before him was the Christ, the Son of the living God. But teaching is that the thing comes into my mind logically, as it were; that is, I understand the logical bearing of the thing, there is a reason for it. So in approaching the thought of the assembly in this gospel it is said that the Lord left the Pharisees and Sadducees and went away; then He says, "How is it that ye do not understand?" It is a question of the understanding. They thought He was speaking to them about bread; they were unable to seize the thought. You might say the whole environment was filled with the thought that He was the bread, and they were thinking of ordinary bread. "How is it that ye do not understand?" He says -- and that is a voice to us -- that you are to be no longer babes in the sense of being unable to use your minds. So I

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think that leads up to the revelation to Peter. The idea is that you have a mind capable of taking in the things and, in due time, understanding.

Ques. Is that why the word is changed from "a babe" to "a little child" here, and then later to "children"?

J.T. I think that is right. The word used in chapter 11 is the most diminutive of all, and rightly translated "babe". But "little child" in chapter 18 suggests a boy; it is sometimes used of a girl, too. As far as I understand it there is a sense of responsibility connected with it, a person available for service being implied, though young; still you can make use of him. And I think that it is very suggestive that the Lord set him in the midst, not by Himself here, but He can put him right down amongst the brethren; as if He cast about, as it were, 'Is there anyone here who can be used to exemplify this great thought, what the kingdom of God is, the kingdom of heaven, and who is the greatest in it?'

P.H. The "little child" suggests a subjective work in the person.

J.T. And I think one available to Christ, He can put His hand on him.

P.H. Would it be the outcome of a babe in Matthew 11 holding himself available for the work, having realised he has been selected sovereignly?

J.T. Just so, the attitude of your mind, I think, which works out in exclusiveness of what would hinder you, what is not in keeping with the attitude of God operating sovereignly. Our safest position in that sense is in the hands of God operating sovereignly.

McL. Is not that the great thought of, "Except ..." (Matthew 18:3)?

J.T. Yes, being converted is the turn round of the mind from the things that have operated before

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to the God that is now before us, and we become little in our own eyes. I think that is the idea of the word 'converted', meaning that the little child was not always like that.

Now, to come on to chapter 21 as the point to be reached in this reading, it is a question how children normally come into service in the temple. You cannot expect them to if you do not keep the temple before them, and if you do not from the outset accustom them to the idea of the temple of God. Why should we not regard them as capable of taking in temple thoughts, though in a hazy way?

McL. Is not that why the Lord cleared away the elements that would hinder the children seeing the beauty of the temple; He cleared away the tables of the money-changers, the commercial side of things, the buying and selling; He opened the avenue to divine things.

J.T. The assumption is that they were witnesses of all this. It is said in verse 12, "Jesus entered into the temple of God, and cast out all that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those that sold doves". It seems to me that that would eliminate all thought of gain in the things of God, and children are to come to see that; that there is no monetary gain in being in the house of God. That is not proposed; the Lord said, 'All that must go'.

Ques. In Psalm 8 the expression used is that they established praise, whereas in Matthew 21 the expression is, they perfected praise. What would you say as to that?

J.T. "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou established praise [or 'founded strength', the note says] because of thine adversaries, to still the enemy and the avenger". I think it brings out there strikingly how God may turn to account in the testimony what young people do in His service.

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What is there more impressive than the first lisping of a young brother in giving thanks to God in the assembly! What victory there is in it!

A.H.R. The first thing it says of Samuel is that he worshipped the Lord in the temple.

J.T. Quite so. So it is, I suppose, the Septuagint, or translation of the seventy, which the Lord uses and uses it knowingly. They heard the children crying in the temple and saying, "Hosanna to the Son of David", and they were indignant, and the Lord said to them, "Have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?" In other words, He just said to them, 'Have you not read Psalm 8?'

Rem. Our brother referred just now to the necessity of preserving the spirit of the babe. If we are to get revelation to the end of our days, we have to keep the spirit to the end of our days. The Lord is not reproaching people here with being babes, but this spirit should be cultivated to the very end and then the Father, in His sovereignty, can give revelation.

J.T. I think that is right. It is a question of the attitude of your mind though you might be a father spiritually, for it is really a question of the Father's sovereign choice.

Rem. So really the beginning and end of the thing is in those who maintain the spirit of the babe.

J.T. I think that is the thought. The Lord said virtually, 'I heard what they said'. In the midst of the din going on there, is it beneath the Lord to pay attention to that? No, He said, 'I heard that', and how beautifully it connects with Psalm 8, filling out the mind of God -- these children crying in the temple. And then, how did they come to use these wonderful terms? We may not think them wonderful now, but remember they applied these terms to a Man who was regarded generally as of no account. These

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children say, "Hosanna to the Son of David" -- I believe it is the highest note you can get at this particular juncture, for He has just come from over the Jordan, and the blind man referred to this, and these children take it up; they are in accord with the highest note, they are not behind.

Ques. Do you think they had come under the influence of their elders in the earlier part of the chapter, for on the road to Jerusalem the crowds that went before and that followed cried saying, "Hosanna to the Son of David"? God seemed to be sovereignly leading the crowds to use those words.

J.T. That is my point. You do not want to assume the children cannot reach the highest point, for you get this remarkable appellation in the end of chapter 20. "Two blind men, sitting by the wayside, having heard that Jesus was passing by, cried out saying, Have mercy on us, Lord, Son of David". And again (in verse 31), "They cried out the more, saying, Have mercy on us, Lord, Son of David". We are not told how they got this thought, but evidently it is the work of God. Then the crowd were saying the same thing, but the children are saying it in the temple. It is not simply that they are in the throng at the roadside, they are saying these things in the temple.

H.F.N. Would this link on at all with the Lord in Luke 2 where He is seen in the temple sitting in the midst of the doctors?

J.T. I have thought of it myself in that way, for the Lord is there as an example for young people. He is able to give God His place above His natural parents, and that is what happens in the temple.

H.F.N. One has often been struck by the thought that the prophet Zechariah says the boys and girls are going to play in the streets of Jerusalem, but the children in the New Testament are seen in the temple

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as the great vessel of praise. Is there anything to be learnt from that in regard of ourselves?

J.T. Zechariah is speaking of a millennial state of things; he speaks about old people too. I suppose there will be provision in that wonderful age for the weak. There will be no danger of motor cars in the streets, for instance. But here it is an exalted thought that Matthew gives us which we should not miss; these children are saying these things in the temple. I quite admit it is not the word for the inner temple; but it is the general idea of the temple of God. We might get an idea from this scripture of how much more exalted a place the children have in the temple than even in the millennial day.

Ques. Would you mind making a more direct application to ourselves in regard to the young children growing up amongst us?

J.T. Well, I think the scripture contemplates the children (viewing them now literally) as brought up in the atmosphere of spirituality in the very best there is, because Joshua contemplates that the most spiritual suggestions become the occasion of children questioning, "What mean these stones?" Well, let any father sit down and tell his child "what mean these stones", and he will have to go over highly spiritual ground; and the Spirit of God does not suggest that the child may not take in the thoughts.

H.F.N. Is it not significant that every time the Spirit of God alludes to the children asking questions, it follows a spiritual move on the part of the parents?

J.T. I think so. "What mean these stones?" I suppose the thought properly is, 'Tomorrow you will be asked about this; anytime the children may ask about these stones'. And another thing I think that should be noted in Exodus 12:21 - 28 is that when Moses calls the elders, he brings in words that are not in the earlier section, and in the end it says, in regard to what Jehovah said to him, "It

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shall come to pass, when your children shall say to you, What mean ye by this service?" It is not simply, What does the service mean? not simply, What does the Lord's supper mean? for instance, but, What do you mean by it? I have to give them my account of it. And it says, "Ye shall say, It is a sacrifice of passover to Jehovah, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt when he smote the Egyptians and delivered our houses". You do not get that form of words in the previous part at all; you get the lintel and the door-post and the blood, but the words "delivered our houses" mean that your children are delivered, for the houses include the children. It seems to me that is a fine element to get into a child -- that is what the passover means.

McL. Do you not think you often get questions asked that find out how far the thing is substantial in your own soul?

J.T. You are a learner yourself; only God really can answer these questions fully.

Rem. It is very striking that in the next chapter in Exodus 13:8, it says, "Thou shalt inform thy son in that day, saying, It is because of what Jehovah did to me when I came out of Egypt;" and then later on (verse 14), "It shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say to him, With a powerful hand Jehovah brought us out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage". It is direct teaching in the first place, and then the answer to the question in the second place.

J.T. Yes. As to our houses, it is a great point in regard of children if the house is delivered. The house includes all that are in it.

Ques. Is the praise in Matthew 21:15 in any way the outcome of verse 2? As to our children being held for God in the matter of praise, is it in

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any way the outcome of every child being held so that they might hear the speaking, "Immediately ye will find an ass tied, and a colt with it"?

J.T. That is good.

Ques. Is it not an important feature in verse 7 that, the disciples having gone and done as Jesus said, "He sat on them". Is that not encouraging in the light of the blend you have been speaking of -- He sat on them?

J.T. You mean the old brothers and the young ones used together. That is what I think God is bringing out; each has his place. It must never be forgotten that young people are capable of impressions. A young brother brought into fellowship, as we speak, is able to take part in the assembly; he is not brought up in the nursery but in the assembly; he is capable of taking in the full thoughts of God.

Rem. You mean the house is held in relation to the temple.

J.T. Quite so.

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LOVE SEEN IN DISCIPLESHIP

John 13:21 - 26; 2 Chronicles 10:6 - 16

I was thinking, dear brethren, of love and how it may shine in discipleship, that is, in those who are learning or have learnt. Pupils are not always lovable: many, too, have ability for acquiring knowledge, but are by no means more lovable because of that ability, indeed, in the learning they are apt to be irritable and impatient. So I have selected these verses in John because they show love working out in discipleship. Of course one is not always learning; it is a poor thing if it has to be that and only that; indeed, in such a case it is very likely that we develop into learners who never arrive at a knowledge of the truth. It is in application that we become intelligent as to the truth in its parts. And so John is singled out here in this chapter as one who could answer a question, or who could cause, by his nearness to the Lord, the question to be answered. There is indeed such a thing as "knowing of whom thou hast learned them" (2 Timothy 3:14), a very important matter. It is well, especially for young people, to trace back anything presented to be learned and see the source. But still, if the question is answered, if the light is sought, our desires under the circumstances are satisfied. But the desire for the light here was satisfied by a certain person who was in the bosom of Jesus, and we are carefully told that he was there at that particular time. He was reclining, as I suppose, at table, which was a great privilege in view of all that comes out in the chapter, but he was in the bosom of Jesus; and then we are told that Jesus loved him. So we see the result of this enquiry on the part of Peter, who, if he was not near enough to the Lord to direct the question to Him himself, knew who was -- another

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important matter. The Lord respects any acknowledgement of distance with us, and He respects, too, any acknowledgement of nearness in another. Acknowledgement has a first-rate place as a word in the divine vocabulary, and one need not be afraid of an acknowledgement when an acknowledgement is necessary. So that Peter knew that there was one nearer than he. You say, 'Well, it is not easy to judge of things' -- nor is it perhaps, but the obligation is there nevertheless. Certainly, as far as I am concerned, I seek to have a judgment before God about everybody I know, especially the Lord's people. And Peter evidently had a true estimate of his brother disciple in this case, and, without saying anything, he beckoned to him -- a mode of enquiry or communication that indicates a certain nearness, a familiarity.

Now the incident is a jewel in its proper setting, beloved; that is, the jewel is set in relation to other jewels. John is the great love gospel; we say it is the fourth gospel, but it is properly the love gospel. The great things in it could hardly be said without such conditions as are indicated. The more the love, the greater the thoughts, the greater the communications. In this gospel we have, of course, to do with Deity; let no one be afraid to have to do with the Deity. I mean to say the way is open to have to do with It, with God. And, as entering on the ground in this gospel, you feel at once that you have to do with God, and, as you proceed, what strikes you throughout is love. It could conveniently be said that the explanation of these great facts in these last days is that there is one thing that does not fail in the history of the assembly -- I am not referring to persons, but things -- and that is love. I believe that is one of the features that is brought forward in our times, that there is that, a thing which does not fail. Indeed, one is greatly impressed with the thought of the advantage there is in the perusal of

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this gospel from the standpoint of love, and the query in oneself is, Can I fit into that picture? Have I any place at all in it, or have I to be ruled out? I may do a little in Matthew. Matthew will let me go to the care meeting, as we say, and make it imperative on me to go. Mark will say to me, If there is anything to be done, do it. Mark will not listen to me if I say, 'I must wait for a certain condition of soul'. No, if a thing is to be done, do it and do it at once. A lazy christian is intolerable to Mark. "Cursed be he", says another, "that doeth the work of Jehovah negligently" (Jeremiah 48:10) -- that is a very strong word. You say, 'He is doing a little;' but he is not doing it well, he is doing it negligently, and God resents it. Luke would say, Well, you must be ornamental; ornament is a great point with God. Jerusalem of old was said to be the ornament of the earth, and it will be that. And I think Luke is the evangelist who would help us out in that way that, if one has to do with anything of God, he does not detract from it by his clumsiness or his way of doing it, he enhances it. But I think John sets out the wonderful ground we are on, the wonderful position it is. Can I stand in that position? One great person after another is caused to pass before us, indeed the great testimony is from God -- "Love is of God, and every one that loves has been begotten of God, and knows God" (1 John 4:7). It is a question of origin; the word 'children' in that sense is a matter of whence you have come parentally. He that loves is born of God and knows God, we are told in the epistle, and so, "God so loved;" that is what John brings out.

Then, as regards persons, personal love, we have "The Father loves the Son". It is not, 'God loves Jesus;'; of course that is true, but it is "The Father loves the Son", not 'loved' or 'will love', He loves the Son. It is "God so loved the world", but "The Father loves

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the Son". That is a great objective thought, beloved, for the mind, for the intelligent mind, the renewed mind, of the christian: "The Father loves the Son". And the Lord says of Himself that He loves the Father. What a picture for us, dear brethren, in this gospel -- "The Father loves the Son". 'Well', you say, 'He will have Him eternally to love', but He is not speaking of that, He is speaking of how things are to be done down here when He says that. So that if you are going to do what Matthew says or, indeed, if you are going to do anything, you must remember that is the principle, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand". And then you find things coming in as bringing out the love of Christ. I am just touching on certain points, so as to bring out what God has in mind for us, something that will never give way, that is the idea of divine love in its working out amongst us. Jesus loved Mary and Martha and Lazarus; He loved the three, but He loved them severally as well. I believe the lesson, dear brethren, is as to what we find in a brother's house; it is a question of a household. God is bringing out the idea of a household; He would furnish every feature of love so as to fortify us in these last days; that is, in entering a brother's house, a sister's house, or the house of two sisters and a brother, you find love. That is the sort of thing that John brings to our attention; what is done for love, what is done because of love under all circumstances. Be the world what it may, be the wind what it may, it is a question of what love will do. So this wonderful chapter which I have read brings out that the Lord Jesus loved His own, "Having loved his own". To add anything to that, 'His own disciples', or 'His own brethren' will not really add to it -- He "loved his own who were in the world;" that is, He loved them there, where they were, and because (in a sense) of where they were. Let no one

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assume that external circumstances can in any way interfere with his spiritual progress. If you are in the path of the will of God, you are loved there where you are. "Having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end". It is the persistency of it, and this action appears to bring it out. But the bringing of it out, the expression of it in such a way, also brings out the evil, and the presence of the evil brings out the question. The disclosure that evil was there brings out the question. That is to say, beloved brethren, if anything happens we must go into it, we must question; and let us not be afraid of questioning, but go to the right person with your question, for you are likely to get much talk about these matters. And Peter leads the way here as to the person of whom he enquires; he knew him, knew his nearness to the Lord, and, not only that, but John was actually there in the bosom of Jesus at the time. So that love is tapped, as it were, and the truth comes out. He is ready to do the service indeed, and he does it with full result, that is, the complete clearance of the evil. I believe it had been hidden, you know; I think the real trouble in our cases of difficulty is the want of transparency, and hence the necessity of going to the right person. Peter went to the right person and he got the light that is needed; the whole matter is cleared.

It only brings up, dear brethren, what some of us have been engaged with elsewhere, that is priesthood. "Ye that are spiritual", that is the word. John was spiritual; he was where the light was, that is, in the bosom of Jesus; it was no question of his mere mental knowledge. The Urim and the Thummim were not on the turban of the priest, what was on the high priest's turban was "Holiness to Jehovah", as much as to say, 'Be careful what is underneath that: be careful in your mind'. The divine thought of my head is that it is to be holiness, for the working

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of the natural mind in the things of God is most insidious. "Holiness to Jehovah;" be on your guard, it is a warning. The Urim and the Thummim were in the breastplate; and in Deuteronomy 33 where the blessing of Levi is pronounced by Moses, the man of God, he puts the Thummim before the Urim, meaning that Levi had proved the thing, that he had proved a certain perfection, and hence, a certain light. For the perfection must precede the light, that is John's principle, "in him was life", he says of Christ, that is the principle of the Thummim. The Thummim is perfection; it is perfection in man; that is to say, it is a man who can be trusted, his life is reliable, he has proved himself to be of God. "We are of God", says the apostle John. If the man has the Thummim, he gives you the mind of God, you can trust him. So that the Thummim comes first in Deuteronomy 33; and it is in John's gospel that the life is the thing, and the life is the light; light is inseparable from life. So that Peter knew John's relations with Jesus. Let us therefore, dear brethren, know one another. We shall know one another in heaven, there will be no dark part in any one of us there, thank God, but there are dark parts now, hence the difficulty of disclosing what is going on, that you cannot be sure in making your enquiry, and hence things remain hidden. Peter knew John had the means of getting at things, and he beckoned to him, and he said, "Lord, who is it?" Will the Lord hold back an answer? Never! As we seek His mind we shall get it; and, as we obtain it, as it is out, there is a solution of the matter; the whole matter is solved, and Judas went out, and behold, it was night. The matter is solved and there is a purified company walking in the light in this way.

I now want to show how all this failed in Rehoboam. He is one of many types, and his history helps us as to the New Testament when we see it is a question

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of young brothers and young sisters coming into evidence in the service of God. They may have been learning in the school, in readings and in attending meetings, but they are tested, as Rehoboam was and failed. He began well; it says he went and enquired from the old men, and that means that I, as a young brother, a young sister, want to serve the Lord, and I am called to serve Him. Rehoboam was called, he is spoken of as the king here in fact -- and something comes up, and I go to the old brothers. They certainly have the best counsel to give, and they ought to have. What I may say here is that old age in itself does not count for much. The days of the years of David counted for much, the times that passed over him are spoken of: what an experience he had! The days that passed over Solomon counted for much; the days that passed over Joshua counted for much, hence the elders that outlived Joshua influenced the people of God after he had died. I only make that remark so that we might understand that it is not mere age, it is a question of what the man has been. Well now, who are these old men? They are said to have stood before Solomon. You may say, 'Solomon did not do as well toward the end of his life', but it does not say they stood before him at the end of his life. I do not suppose he was more than sixty when he died, so they were not so very old, but they had stood before him. And a spiritual woman comes up to Jerusalem in her day, and she says of Solomon, "Happy are thy men! happy are these thy servants, who stand continually before thee, who hear thy wisdom" (1 Kings 10:8). What a life it was! The Spirit of God enlarges on it, what his wisdom was, and these men had stood before him, we are told, and they heard his wisdom. So that Rehoboam makes an excellent choice, a very fine example for young people, because we are so apt to think we know better than the old ones. I am not

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pleading for the old ones, because they think at times perhaps they know everything; but the balance must be kept. As we were seeing this afternoon, the Lord sat on the colt, on the ass and the colt. So Rehoboam selected the old men at once, and you will observe, dear brethren, that the old men, in answering him, make no reference at all to the charge of Jeroboam and his people that Solomon's reign was an unduly rigorous reign. It is a very wise thing to say nothing if it is apt to irritate unnecessarily; they did not say anything about this charge; they just said to Rehoboam, 'Now you can reign and be satisfied if you speak good words to these people'. They spoke very few words to him, but they were excellent words, they were just what were needed. I say to the young people, you do well to weigh what an old brother or sister may put before you; and moreover, do not fail to ask them, do not think you know best what to do. "With good advice", we are told to "make war" (Proverbs 20:18). The enemy is watching us and any mistake we make will be used of him against the truth, hence the importance of getting good counsel in what we are doing. But it says he rejected the counsel of the old men; let no one do that! -- I mean counsel that is recommended as the Spirit of God recommended this. Certainly you can do no damage, you can do nothing out of the way to anyone by speaking good words, speaking kindly to people. Unnecessary harshness will attain nothing for God -- nothing. So it says he went to the young men, and mark what it says of them, they "who had grown up with him", not with Solomon. Of course they were brought up in Solomon's time, and Rehoboam was brought up in Solomon's time, but they grew up with him, and they "stood before him;" that is a most mischievous thing, when a young man has a coterie around him who think as he does. He has something about him perhaps to distinguish him

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from them and give him the lead. Rehoboam sends for these, and they are glad to come and to give counsel; they know what Solomon's reign has been, 'These old men just want to support themselves', they said, as it were, and they said, You tell this people, "My little finger is thicker than my father's loins ... my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions". See the proud boast of those young men; they put the words into his mouth that he was a greater man than Solomon, and the advice suited him and led him to disaster.

I only speak of this, dear brethren, so as to show you how, in discipleship, when we should be learning we may not be learning as those who are lovable. We may be taking in knowledge but not putting on the Spirit of Christ, what becomes knowledge, for "knowledge puffs up", we are told, "but love edifies". The love makes you attractive, so that in the time of learning you are growing in beauty, you are of the disciples: for notice, it is not one of the brethren whom Jesus loved, it is one of the disciples whom He loved. It may be, of course, that the word 'disciple' was a sort of general title for the followers of Jesus, but it is not used for nothing; it is a word denoting persons who are learning. It is a young man of whom it is said several times he was the disciple whom Jesus loved. So the disciple is taking on instruction, he is taught of God, but he is also becoming like Jesus, he is becoming lovable, so that you can take things in from him. You would not say, 'Well, he has the truth, but look at his ways, look at the kind of spirit he has!' That is a poor thing to have to be said about any of us. We want to commend the truth as we minister it, to adorn the doctrine, as the scripture says.

That was all I had to say tonight, dear brethren, and I am sure you will agree that it is of practical

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value. It is a time of light, thank God, and of help from the Lord, but this is what, I believe, the Lord intends to shine in the apostle John, that he was the disciple whom Jesus loved, and that in his learning days he was in the bosom of Jesus.

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THE THINGS ABOVE AND THE NEW MAN

Colossians 3:1 - 25

J.T. You would have had some thought from the Lord in your previous enquiry into this chapter?

F.I. We thought this followed what is in the previous chapter, the things of which men would approve in regard to the flesh, but taken up here in another view as to what is on the gross side, of which men do not approve. In both cases it depended on what view we had in relation to Christ, and the position we had as provided for us, risen with Christ. We thought, in that way, there must be the objective side, the incentive, before we could act in accord with what is in the second chapter or this chapter.

J.T. The 'if' is not the 'if' of doubt, but alludes to the doctrine stated in chapter 2. There is the burial with Him in baptism (chapter 2: 12) "in which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead". There is no 'if' there, so that the 'if' alludes to the hypothesis -- the thing being so, consequences should follow. Evidently the apostle, by the Spirit, is aiming at leading the saints further on than resurrection. Resurrection is perhaps a little beyond most of us as to attainment, as the apostle says, "If any way I arrive at the resurrection from among the dead" (Philippians 3:11). That is, no doubt, beyond most of us from that point of view; but, even so, the Spirit is not content, for He constantly goes on to the heavenly position, the things above. I suppose the word 'above' is moral as well as spiritual. "Seek the things which are above, where the Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God: have your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth; for ye have died, and

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your life is hid with the Christ in God" (Colossians 3:1 - 3). "Above", of course, is above, but it very often has moral elevation in mind. Here it would evidently elevate the brethren at Colosse from the earth to the heavenly position of the truth. First, seeking the things and then, having your mind on them, on the things.

F.I. In relation to the present position of Christ, how do you understand the thought of the "things"? Would it be the things connected with Christ that are brought to light in regard to the thoughts of God as you take account of them?

J.T. Apparently so; they have this character that they are above. You will not find any allusion to them in the newspapers or in the current magazines, or in conversation with men of the world; there is no such thought at all of anything above. It is not only above, but "where the Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God". It is another system of things altogether apart from the things below, and the effect is to draw you away from the earth. But there is a certain logic in it in that the 'if' is the basis; "if therefore ye have been raised" is a logical thing, that that is the bearing of the resurrection, to direct you beyond, for, even as risen, the Lord was generally seen standing. He assembled with the saints and He sat at table in Emmaus, but generally the position is that He was standing; meaning that there is always something beyond the resurrection position, for that position is not enough; His position on high is what characterises christianity.

Ques. You spoke of the things above being moral instead of actual, would those enumerated in verses 12 and 13 have that application as being morally above the earth?

J.T. Quite so. "Put on therefore, as the elect of God" these things mentioned. These are qualities here in the saints, they came out in Christ, but they are things above, as we might say, in that world.

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There are things in this world that form the range in which man lives; there are things in that world. So that, for the person who accepts nominally that he is risen with Christ, not simply that Christ is raised for his justification, it is a normality that he should go further, for Christ has gone further. He says, "I ascend to my Father and your Father". He has not gone into vacancy, but into a wide range of things, and they are things above, not merely things in heaven, but above. It is a range of things above which will come out in display presently, but the things are there already.

Ques. Would it have any reference to the "all things" over which He is head to the assembly in Ephesians 1:22?

J.T. I suppose it would, "Head over all things to the assembly". Some have alluded to Hebrews 12:22, 23 as giving a list of things, to make the thing concrete. We have not come to the mount that could be touched, but we have come to "mount Zion; and to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, the universal gathering; and to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven". It seems to give a great range of thought; you have come to these things. We are told to set our minds on the things above, whatever they are. The things mentioned in that chapter would certainly be included in them. I suppose the heart is involved in the seeking, seeking the things; then the mind: have your mind set, which is a fixed sort of thing, never to be otherwise.

Ques. Would this compare with Galatians when it refers to Jerusalem above being free?

J.T. A similar thought, I think. That helps as to what we are saying, for it is not there literally yet, but it is one of the thoughts up there.

Ques. You have referred to Philippians, to the resurrection of the dead. The apostle there also goes

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on to speak of "forgetting the things behind, and stretching out to the things before" (Philippians 3:13). Does that in any way allude to what we have here?

J.T. I think so; it is referring to "the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus".

F.I. The thought of Christ Himself is brought out prominently here. He is brought before us personally, would you say?

J.T. Yes, it is characteristic of the epistle that it is Christ.

F.I. I suppose the thought of being risen to enter into that subjectively is that you find yourself in touch with Him as such in His present position.

J.T. That has a hiding effect on us. This is really a hiding epistle, an epistle characterised by entering the land; not actually in it, but entering -- it is a process; and, as going into heaven, you are not concerned to make a show or have a place here. If a man has means or title, ancestry or anything that will give him distinction here, Colossians would help him. If he has his mind set on things above, he wants to get free of things here, and Colossians helps him and gives him a certain moral force in the sense that his life is hid with Christ in God. Christ is the governing thought in the epistle, "Your life is hid with the Christ in God", so that one is not living in what he has or in what he is, there is a getting out of sight, there is the principle of hiding.

Ques. It is 'the Christ' in several places in this connection. What is the difference between that and the title 'Christ'?

J.T. Not much; it is just in the original, the Messiah, the anointed One; only sometimes Christ is named, and so used. The article may be there sometimes and not translated in the English when it is simply 'Christ' as a name, but when it is 'the Christ' it is usually Christ used as anointed and employed of God for the effectuating of His thoughts.

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"I have found David, the son of Jesse, a man after my heart, who shall do all my will" (Acts 13:22), and He anointed him. Christ is that Person through whom God effects things. It is an important thought in this epistle, for it shuts out all other actors; those who are not acting under Him are to be excluded and everything must come under the authority of Christ, whatever you or I are doing. Philip went to Samaria to preach the Christ; he was ready to do things for the Samaritans. The woman in John 4 had come to that conclusion already and said "Is not this the Christ?" because He told her all she had done; to her He was the Man who would do things.

Ques. So that the full thought is presented in the Christ sitting at the right hand of God. Is that the full end in resurrection? It is there you get the thought of the hiding. That is where things are hidden, in Christ sitting there.

J.T. The One anointed of God to effect all His will, and our life is hid with Him. He would say to us, 'Well, you want to make a little show here; you have some little thing that distinguishes you'. The Lord might not rebuke you severely, for it is in us all to capitalise what we have and to make ourselves something. But the Lord would say, 'This is not the time for it -- your life is hid with Me'. But Christ will look after it He will make the most of it. In truth, He is Himself our life. And then we shall be manifested with Him in glory and that sets you at rest -- you say, 'I am content to be out of sight until He is manifested'. You do not want to be manifested without Him, as the Corinthians were.

Rem. Things on the earth tend to engross us sometimes; it needs a great leverage, to enable us to set them aside as far as engrossment is concerned.

J.T. This epistle will set us free, I believe. Surely the things connected with the Lord are better than

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anything here. I know well enough in myself how I capitalise things. You grow up from a young man to a married man and you make yourself a centre if you are talking or whatever you are doing. These things are informal but they are brought in and they give me a little position here. The Lord may be very kind to you, but He will say, 'It is not the time for that: the time for show for you is by and by. When I am shown you will be shown, when I am manifested you will be manifested'. "When the Christ is manifested who is our life, then shall ye also be manifested with him in glory". Then our capital, as it were, will be all seen at its best.

Rem. So the word, "Keep thy heart more than anything that is guarded; for out of it are the issues of life" (Proverbs 4:23) seems to come in in connection with the seeking.

J.T. Colossians 2:3 tells us that things are hidden in the mystery, "In which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge". The principle of this book is to take you out of this world in your mind and spirit and affection. It is not the theory simply here, but the thing acting on your mind. You have a mind, and you have control of it, as Romans teaches, "I myself with the mind serve God's law" (Romans 7:25), it is your own power, you are able to do that. That is carried through here, "Have your mind on the things that are above", it is a constant thing.

Ques. This would be the practical enjoyment of eternal life, would it not?

J.T. Quite so, only it is making it a hidden thing. Christ in truth is your life. You might say, 'Well, these things are my life;' but the spiritual man says, 'Christ is my life'. "When the Christ is manifested who is our life ..." James and John and their mother had in their minds that they should have two distinctive places in heaven, not having in

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mind that we are all raised up together and made to sit down together. Love has that thought in its mind; love never wants to be distinct above the brethren. Zebedee's wife and James and John thought they would have something specially, and the Lord was very gentle with them. He said, "It is not mine to give". He is very gentle with us. But in this chapter it is no question of having a distinctive place for myself here, but Christ is my life, Christ is everything.

F.I. That would exercise us as to making capital of things. We often want a place here, we are often the centre of the picture, whereas that which is ours, that which belongs to us, as you say, is hid with Christ; our life is there, not here.

Rem. So it says that "Christ is everything, and in all".

F.I. Yes, but we often bring in some sort of incident and tell it to people and really have ourselves in view, but that should not be our life -- it is hid with Christ.

J.T. A man may hold material things here but not be living in them at all; in fact, the more you have, the more responsible you are.

F.I. Do you think this refers not so much to occupation with the material but to our spiritual relations? The material things might often be held lightly, but yet we may be living in that into which we have been brought as a result of our spiritual life.

J.T. Yes. It is Christ who is our life; my life is hid with Him; He will look after it.

O.G. Do you think this has a collective thought in it too? As setting our mind on the things above, the Spirit of God would enlarge our minds to take in what God has before Him, so that we are, in a way, living together in it. As people in the world live in the things of the world, so the saints have a range of things which occupies them and of which they speak.

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J.T. I think that is right; Colossians is really the saints viewed collectively. The type, of course, is Joshua 3. They left Shittim, it says, and they came to the Jordan. You come up against the power of death. And they lodged there three days, and the ark is at a distance of two thousand cubits. That is the position; they are all looking at it; it is there so that every Israelite can see it. It is the great objective thought.

Rem. Lodging there would be great gain to us.

J.T. That is the idea. Three would always be an exercise. You go from one to two, and from two to three; that finishes the exercise. You are treading on new ground, you have not gone this way before. You have been through Romans. You have been hearing the gospel about Christ risen, and justification. Now it is a question of your being risen too, and without the Holy Spirit that would be only theory: it is a question of being raised by the faith of the working of God. The thing is real, it is by faith, and it is the working of God. What wrought in Christ is working in you.

Ques. You were suggesting this is an entering in; does that mark my exercises all the week?

J.T. Just so. The word 'lodged' would mean you are not to stay there any longer; it is an exercise, but you are going on. A lodging is just a stopping place. You do not get that word in Romans; I do not think you have that thought anywhere else but in Joshua.

Ques. Do you mean the "faith of the working of God" is the working now, not simply what took place in Christ, but working now on the principle of faith?

J.T. Just so; if christianity is not that, it is merely theory. So it is the power that works in you, the same power that wrought in Christ, so it is the faith of that. I have no doubt about my resurrection; I am raised on that principle of what God is doing.

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It is as good as done; and the power by which He does it is because of His Spirit which dwells in us, as it says in Romans. The ark is two thousand cubits before you; it was not very big, but that distance would make it visible to everybody who had good sight; otherwise you might not see it at all, hence the importance of the exercise. You see they are moving on. As soon as the priests' feet touched the waters, the waters went back; that is the working of God.

Ques. To speak of a practical point, do you understand they came near to it as they crossed, or was it at a distance when they crossed as well as when they began to cross?

J.T. The principle of distance is always there; it remained there till they went over. Then another thing is that a man of each tribe takes a stone and carries it over; that means he has power. We are not told how large the stones were, but the suggestion is there is weight there; each man carries one over, and there is perfect unity: they put them down in Gilgal. Faith sees the whole nation in those stones, but power is needed to carry them over. There is power in the saints, that is the suggestion, because it says we are quickened with Him as well as raised with Him, and that is not by faith, for in chapter 2 we are quickened by the Spirit, a positive thing.

O.G. Does that bring in the features suitable to the new position so that my feelings and thoughts are all suitable to the new sphere?

J.T. So that there is love there and great consideration in the type. There are forty thousand men (Joshua 4:13) and the whole twelve tribes are there. You might have said to the two and a half tribes, 'You do not belong here', but love says, 'You do belong here and we are glad you are coming so far with us'. Faith and love combined will never leave

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out any of the saints. If we are here tonight, all Israel is present, the whole nation is somewhere.

Rem. It seems to stress the lodging places also in connection with the twelve stones; they carried them over with them to the lodging place and laid them down there.

J.T. That is another exercise. Now we are on new ground. Colossians contemplates you are on resurrection ground, but that is not the stopping place. That is what I have been thinking about lately in regard to what is here, the lodging place in Canaan means it is not the full thought. It is resurrection right enough, because they are coming out of death, but it is not the full thought. It is a question of the ground, what is christian ground; is it resurrection or is it heavenly ground? It is manifestly heavenly. The lodging place on the Canaan side means that, that it is not the full position. Gilgal, which is identified with the lodging place (Joshua 4:20) is the place to judge yourself in, and this epistle is for that purpose really.

O.G. It says, "Where the Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God:" does that bring in more the official side? I was thinking in contrast to the family thought. There is the political side in heaven as well as the family thought.

J.T. Yes, I think that is right, and the power attaching to it, the right hand; all is there. At this stage we need to be imbued with the thought of power, the working of God and the right hand of God, and that the Lord is the Christ, the One who does everything.

Rem. So that power would be with your heart and mind in this matter, seeking, and setting your mind.

J.T. I think that is the way. If you dwell on all this, it sets you in movement, so that you are not a mere theoretical christian; there is power going on in your mind and heart and thoughts.

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Ques. Is that why the next section is practical?

J.T. Well, he brings in now, from verse 5 to the end of verse 11, the state of things out of which we have been brought, and it is all on a logical principle, not mere arbitrary exhortation. You now have a mind; you have come out of the wilderness and have moved away from Shittim, the last stage in the wilderness, and have had to do with God, and it is now a question of your mind. You are supposed to recognise the Spirit, for He is only once mentioned in this epistle, and that means He is putting forward His work in your soul. That is why, I think, in the book of Joshua you have one chapter devoted to Rahab, a woman who was never in the wilderness, who never saw Moses and Aaron, but who knew God; she knew something of what He was doing and of what Israel was doing. "What ye did ... to Sihon and Og". How did that happen? It is by the Spirit, and only thus. I have got rid of my big self-importance, for that is what it means, and I am in that way viewed in Colossians as a person of experience; and the Spirit is only mentioned once, meaning He has effected something in the saints, and Rahab gets a whole chapter. Well, that means obviously that she is the work of God, that God works Himself in souls.

Rem. So that it is peculiar in Hebrews 11 that she comes into view directly the Red Sea is crossed: she would be the next step in the believer in relation to the divine work.

J.T. That is it. She "did not perish along with the unbelieving, having received the spies in peace" (Hebrews 11:31); she had faith. James 2:25 says she "put them forth by another way", which means she has a spiritual mind, another way. Colossians is all on that line; the work of God in the saints involves these kinds of instincts that you get in Rahab. She had flax on the roof, that is something, and she hid the spies under the flax; and she has a cord in the house

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that is strong enough to let them down. All that refers to the work of God in the person's soul.

Ques. Are you thinking of that as distinct from our position in the wilderness?

J.T. Yes, it is the work of God viewed by itself. So the Spirit is not mentioned; you are supposed to be a person whose mind is under the control of the Spirit. The whole thing is presented to you logically, it ought to be so, "If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ".

Ques. The thought of the manifestation in glory would involve the light as to the greatness of Christ that we have in chapter 1.

J.T. Quite so; His greatness is presented at the outset, which is in keeping with what we said about the ark.

Rem. So the manifestation in glory would hold the saints in relation to what God has secured in that system.

J.T. Then it goes on to what we have been delivered from, "Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth". In verse 8 it is "put off". You will have noticed we are to put off "wrath, anger, malice, blasphemy, vile language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, having put off the old man with his deeds, and having put on the new;" that is, the 'having' there is logical.

Rem. You have accepted the truth of it.

J.T. Yes. You have accepted it, and therefore the truth is put logically.

Rem. So Romans 12 brings us back to that. This opens up an entirely new scene.

J.T. It does. You see how logical it is, that in the attitude of your mind now you put off these things. It is a great idea that in the attitude of your mind you do this, but then the details are presented here, the exhortation is on a logical basis; you take on that attitude now and put off these things.

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Rem. The thought of putting to death seems to be a more intense application of what has to be done; it seems to be a very severe thing.

J.T. It does, in that it is our "members". I suppose it is circumcision. Gilgal is alluded to, sharp knives; the putting to death is a drastic thing.

F.I. It is what you enter into in your exercises definitely.

J.T. It is to be done. There is no thought of concision; it is circumcision, a thorough thing. Then the putting off is really the other side, that you are able to put the things aside; they are outside your life here, they are not your members.

Rem. "Your members" are presented in a very bad light here.

J.T. Yes, the list is given, and it says, "On account of which things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. In which ye also once walked when ye lived in these things", so that the allusion is, I suppose, to the gentile world.

Rem. So that now there is a known power in our souls which will enable us to put these members to death because of the great objective one has in relation to the new life.

J.T. "And having put on the new", that again is a logical basis of having put on positive things. It is only consistent that you should put on these things, because of the ground you have taken that you have put on the new man. The old man in Romans is said to be crucified, but we do not get the new man mentioned.

Rem. We have newness of life; here we have the new man.

J.T. Yes, the beautiful traits of Christ in one another, and you say, 'I want to put those on'.

Rem. The new position demands new clothing.

J.T. Quite so. It really refers to the saints; when you are together you begin to admire the traits of

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Christ as they work out in one another, and you say, 'That is what I want to appear in' -- that is the idea, I think. It is new in the sense of freshness, a new man in the sense of a young, fresh man, delightful and fruitful. Then the word for "renewed into full knowledge" is that there is none like it, that is "according to the image of him that has created him", so that we have a perfect standard in Him who created us.

Rem. It says, "Renewed into full knowledge" -- what is the force of that?

J.T. I think it belongs to this part of the instruction in christianity. You get it in Philippians 1:9; it is the idea of completeness, you do not want anything else.

Ques. New creation is always presented as complete, a man, is it not?

J.T. I think so.

Ques. Is this thought of renewing a continual thing, or is it a thing judged in the soul?

J.T. It is what marks the new man, I think. "Having put on the new" -- "Renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him;" that is, the thing is there, it was there before ever we came into it. The mind is a faculty, but knowledge is more an acquirement.

Ques. Do you reach full growth here?

J.T. The new man is presented as complete. It was there in purpose before any of us were born, we come into it; the thing is presented as a complete thought. The new man is "renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him;" that is the full complete idea. Everything is clear in the light. That we do not see much of it now does not prove it is not there. It does not say what ought to be here, it is what is. "Renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him; wherein there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian,

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bondman, freeman; but Christ is everything and in all" -- it is what is.

F.I. So that would be the habit of your soul as being brought that way: you do not take account of things seen in the barbarian or the Scythian; is that the idea?

J.T. Yes, you are occupied with the new man.

There would be no christianity without the new man; the new man is not presented as in heaven, it is on earth; it is what is being effected here.

Rem. I can quite see now the setting of the twelve stones -- they have all reached it.

J.T. Yes, so what is presented in the apostle's ministry is not only what is in heaven but what is being effected on earth.

Ques. Has the renewing in mind our maintenance in relation to it?

J.T. Well, we come into that, I think. It is "renewed into full knowledge", it is the complete thought here. Not that ye may be renewed, but the thing is renewed.

Rem. You mean that refers to the new.

J.T. To the new man, yes. The new man is as real a thing on earth as Christ is in heaven, and that is what is presented as a testimony, it can be entered into.

Ques. How does this fit in with the thought of being conformed to the image of His Son in Romans 8? That is not a fully complete thought yet, is it?

J.T. No, that is future, "that he might be the firstborn among many brethren".

Ques. 'Image' is referred to here; can you say a word as to the distinction?

J.T. I think it is a strong word that is in mind here -- representation. There is that which can be regarded as presenting the creation of the new man. It is what Christ is, but worked out as a creation in

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us. If you saw a company of saints like those at Ephesus when Paul had finished his work there, you would see wonderful graces and affections. I suppose Acts 20 is to bring out that work, the great work of God; you would see this beautiful thing he is speaking of here; God had effected it among the gentiles. To the Ephesians he says it "is created in truthful righteousness and holiness" (Ephesians 4:24), but it is truth as it is in Jesus, not as it was, but as it is in Jesus; that is, it is what Christ is now worked out here.

Rem. Now in glory.

J.T. Yes, He is up there -- that is the full thought in christianity. The millennium is not the full thought, the resurrection is not the full thought; it is what He is up there answering to the counsels of God.

Ques. So, as appreciating that, you would put on these features.

J.T. Yes, as it goes on, "Put on therefore", there again you have the logical thought, "as the elect of God". You are brought up to the thought of counsel, that this is what suits you, "Put on therefore, as the elect of God". See who you are, this is what suits you. These are great thoughts, they are not theories, and they are possible to us as we have the Holy Spirit. If we could only see the new man, see a company of christians formed after the heavenly pattern, you would say, 'I want to be like them'.

Rem. And even made fit for sharing the portion of the saints in light; we want to be in the good of it now.

J.T. Quite so. The new man, I think, really covers what we are, a heavenly people down here for the Lord. There will be no thought of newness there, for the old is not there and never was there.

Rem. And "bowels of compassion" will not be needed there. These things are needed down here;

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there is a reflection of heaven down here in a scene of need.

Ques. As there is no sense of need there, is that why you brought in the thought of born of God, the Source, as underlying the thought of new creation? Is the thought of new creation that of generation?

J.T. I think generation is a higher thought as it is worked out in Genesis. It is in Abraham that God begins to work on the line counsel, and with him it is a question of parentage, a seed, a wholly right seed. That all looks on to the gospel of John which brings out the birth of the saints and gives them dignity, giving them vital relations with God so that they love Him.

Rem. "If children, heirs also: heirs of God, and Christ's joint heirs" (Romans 8:17) goes right back; then you get the inheritance coming in. Is what we have here in view of the inheritance?

J.T. Well, we are said to be share "the portion of the saints in light" in chapter 1. Ephesians regards the saints as God's inheritance. You can see how delightful the new man is under the eye of God here in this setting; wherever these traits shine in our relations to one another, they are beautiful in our eyes, but God says they are beautiful in His eyes.

Rem. This would fill us with desire to reach the thought of the inheritance.

J.T. Yes, you want to possess it.

Ques. Could you say a word about these traits?

J.T. First, we are "the elect of God, holy and beloved" -- that is what we are. But now we are to put on, as it says, "bowels of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, longsuffering; forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any should have a complaint against any; even as the Christ has forgiven you, so also do ye. And to all these add

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love, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of Christ preside in your hearts, to which also ye have been called in one body, and be thankful. Let the word of the Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another, in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to God. And everything, whatever ye may do in word or in deed, do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father by him". That is the christian company, and these are the graces that are to be put on, which in effect is the new man.

Rem. The thought of teaching and admonishing in psalms and hymns is beautiful.

J.T. Is it not? -- you mean it shows the value of the hymns we have in our social relations with each other?

Rem. That is the way it is presented here.

J.T. It is. It is the effect of psalms, hymns and spiritual songs; it seems that is the way of admonition. A very gracious and inoffensive way if I can admonish a brother or a sister in singing a hymn to them; that would not stir up feelings much.

Rem. To maintain the spiritual tone of the company, I suppose, keeping the atmosphere at the proper level -- "singing with grace in your hearts".

J.T. Yes, not merely a good tune, but with grace in your hearts. The intent in Colossians is that this beautiful new man should appear with these graces.

Rem. Our intercourse at home should have the savour of this hymn and psalm.

F.S. It is "singing with grace in your hearts to God", not for admonition, is it?

J.T. The hymn seems to be the means of it -- they seem to be linked up. Maybe the singing should be entirely for God, but I think it is so linked here that the effect is to help one another.

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F.I. Unless the singing of the hymn had in view what is for God, it would not have the effect of admonishing.

J.T. It is very like a peace, or prosperity, offering; God has His part as well as ourselves.

Ques. Would this be a good answer in result to ministry received that the word of the Christ dwells in us richly?

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Does this singing also suggest the music that springs from the affections as we have in Habakkuk?

J.T. The stringed instruments, you mean?

Rem. Yes. It must be my own, you would say -- something I have learnt myself with God.

J.T. Just so. They are supposed to have them here, psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.

Ques. Are these things the outcome of the bowels of compassion and the kindness it speaks of?

J.T. They all go together. If you compare this with Corinthians, a man coming into the assembly there would be affected by the prophetic ministry that he would hear. But here, while it is the new man that is stressed, you would be affected by the spiritual heavenly graces that mark the saints in their relations to one another. The word of the Christ dwelling in you richly is not simply that you hear a little word in the meeting and enjoy it, but you take it home and connect it with the whole scope of truth -- it is dwelling in you richly.

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THE ASSEMBLY AS CARED FOR AND AS ADMINISTERING

Acts 20:28; 1 Corinthians 3:9 - 17; 1 Corinthians 1:1 - 3

J.T. What is in mind is to call attention to the assembly as divine property involving divine rights, and that we may see, first of all, how it is cared for, as is indicated in the verse in Acts 20 and in the scriptures read in 1 Corinthians. Then, as it is of divine workmanship, we should see what function it is intended to fill. These thoughts are important as applied in their principle today; and we should consider first how the assembly is cared for. We have in the type of the assembly in Genesis, as seen in Isaac and Rebecca, an allusion to Rebecca's nurse, which, I think, conveys the thought of tender care, considerate care too, as indeed is formally stated in 1 Thessalonians and implied in Paul's remarks to the elders of Ephesus who were said to have their office from the Holy Spirit. Indeed it is said, "The Holy Spirit has set you as overseers". It is not only a question of the care of Christ, but the Spirit as having first hand knowledge -- as, of course, Christ has too -- is here to convey to us first-hand knowledge of the needs of the saints, and those who are, in any sense, in the position of care are accordingly responsible. And not only care, but there is authority exercised, and feelings, affections and intimate knowledge of what is needed. Accompanying this instruction to the elders at Ephesus, we have the remark, somewhat difficult to understand in the Authorised Version, as to "The assembly of God, which he [that is God] has purchased with the blood of his own" (not 'His own blood' ) pointing to the place that Christ has in this sense as God's own, pointing, too, to what the assembly is, not exactly in intrinsic worth, but what it is because of the cost.

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A.S.L. Would it be the blood of His own Son, as "He that spared not his own Son"?

J.T. That would be the force of it. The phrase itself is applied to Jesus, "Came to his own".

A.S.L. And they were angry with Him in John 5:18 because He said that "God was his own Father".

F.S.M. You referred to the apostle who had been gentle in the midst of the Thessalonians and cherished them as a nurse would cherish her own children -- is that the spirit in which the overseeing is to take place?

J.T. That was what I had in mind, as foreshadowed in Rebecca's nurse. Jacob was directed to go up to Bethel, which he did, and it is said that Rebecca's nurse died, as if the point was reached where care no longer applied. For we have to understand, that whilst the assembly is to be cared for, it, in its turn, cares for others. Care has in mind that it should function in relation to others, and in the exercise of divine government down here. The point is, it is "the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).

Ques. Would the expression in Thessalonians, "As a nurse would cherish her own children", involve that Paul valued the Thessalonians?

J.T. Yes, he valued them as his own children, with that kind of affection -- a nurse for her own children -- meaning that he valued them in the affections of a mother and with the skill of a nurse. That is what is in mind, I think. The nurse is not a hired servant, she is in the capacity of a mother.

Ques. How would this work out in a locality?

J.T. Well, that you care for those in your meeting from the standpoint of what they have cost, and then from the standpoint of the family. The idea of 'purchased' is not a family thought, it is the acquirement of property that has not earlier been held. The family thought is by birth, that is, the saints are

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viewed as of the family, and a brother, like yourself or myself, in our respective localities, views the saints, not merely according to what they cost, but according to their family connection, the family links. And then, further, what they are in moral beauty, as all fathers and mothers are not only affected by the fact that their children are theirs, but they are affected by what the children are, that is, they are lovable. We may have to tax ourselves to apply the thought of lovableness to some, but we ought to learn, in that connection, to think of saints abstractly, if we are certain a person is a saint -- we are entitled to do that. God does it, and John's epistle teaches us how to do it. I think these thoughts entering into our local position make the service pleasurable, although it is burdensome, and, applied all round, it involves general care entering into and seen in what we call the care meeting. This is a most important meeting, for it is a meeting in which those who have the care (and, of course, everyone should have care) devote an hour or two hours to think entirely of the saints as to how they are getting on and other matters that run with that. I think heaven has great pleasure in those hours when brethren are giving themselves up to think of how the saints are getting on and whether things could be done to make repairs, or to add to what there is.

A.S.L. As a matter of fact, these men of whom we were speaking were overseers of the local assembly at Ephesus.

J.T. They are said to be 'set' as overseers in the local assembly.

H.P.W. Is it open to desire to be an overseer? Here they are 'set' which is more formal, but can any brother who desires to serve have this before him?

J.T. We have the formal statement in 1 Timothy 3:1, it says, "If any one aspires to exercise oversight".

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The first thought as regards the office is that one may aspire to it, and then we have the instructions as to what he must be. If you aspire to anything in God's realm, it must be on His terms -- that is what is meant. But in Acts 14 we are told that the apostles chose themselves elders -- they chose them, they made their own selection, meaning that, whilst it is a thing to be aspired to, sovereignty is involved and must be recognised.

Ques. Is it right there should be the desire for oversight, but, in connection with it, there must be moral qualifications?

J.T. That is what comes out in the verses in 1 Timothy 3 we have referred to. If anyone proffers himself in the divine service, God lays down His terms, and makes it plain they must be adhered to.

A.S.L. An overseer in one locality would not be that in another, would he?

J.T. No, it is always local. It says in Titus 1:5, "Establish elders in each city;" in Acts 14:23 it is "Having chosen them elders in each assembly". Here it is, "Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers".

A.S.L. Is the distinction between gift and oversight or deacon work vitally important? Of course, they might be combined in the same person, but are they distinct?

J.T. They might be combined, but the latter are evidently, as was remarked, local. Gift is never treated as local. A gift may live in a place, but the bearing of the gift is universal.

A.S.L. That is an important distinction, for we read of the elders of the assembly at Ephesus, but they would not be bishops or deacons or elders if they went to Corinth.

J.T. No, but such a one might have the gift of government; it is very likely he would. The gift of

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government would go with eldership, and the gift of government would qualify him to speak in any meeting.

A.S.L. Those who labour are to be respected, and especially those who labour in word and doctrine.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Might a gift of government give help in difficulties, or is it only local?

J.T. "God has set certain in the assembly" (not the local assembly there in 1 Corinthians 12:28) and among these are gifts of government, and therefore they are available anywhere. If saints are wise they will use them too, for they are set in the assembly. Just as you might give room for an evangelist or teacher, so a gift of government is a most important gift, and, if available, should be used.

Ques. Is not "the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own" a little more extensive?

J.T. The word 'assembly' at Ephesus is used in a spiritual way for the whole assembly, but that does not set aside the fact that there is a local assembly at Ephesus. The assembly at Corinth is the assembly we should always think of in dealing with a local assembly, for it is the epistle that specially treats of that subject.

A.S.L. The verses we read in chapter 1 are most helpful as to what the assembly of God in a place is.

J.T. We may come to that. We need to get the idea of care; if the assembly is to function as God intends, it must be cared for.

Ques. Would the thought of "purchased with the blood of his own" cause us to assess every assembly on earth with this same high value?

J.T. That is right, for the local assembly in principle includes all. "Thus I ordain in all the assemblies" -- they would be local. There should be no difference at all in the assemblies.

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Rem. Even the thought in Romans 15:6 of seeking to help one another is to the end "that ye may with one accord, with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ". That brings in the thought of what it should be for God, does it not?

J.T. Quite so, and it is a mutual sort of care in Romans; the idea of care attaches to each of us.

Rem. I was thinking the end in view is that there might be something for God, for "with one mouth" refers to the assembly.

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. The apostle wants to guard against any lording it over God's possession: those whom we serve are God's people.

J.T. I think, according to the requirements of 1 Timothy 3, an elder has necessarily grown up in the local setting. If one has grown faster than others, he would never lose sight of the fact that he is one of the brethren, and that saves him from officialism and enables him to get down to the brethren, and think of each brother and sister in the locality as of the assembly. Extending care to each or any simply means that I am caring for the assembly, and I think the idea of care for one another should never be lost sight of, the youngest christian ought to begin at the outset to care for others.

Ques. Why does the apostle use the similitude of the flock and the thought of shepherding here in Acts 20?

J.T. The first thought is, "Take heed therefore to yourselves" and then, "to all the flock;" that is, your love is general. Then it is, "shepherd the assembly". It is remarkable the word 'shepherd' is applied to the assembly. The flock is alluded to to bring in all the saints; the flock is just so many saints, but the assembly is a corporate thought, and it is the corporate thought God has in His mind. To get the saints to see that they are linked up corporately

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and organically so that they may function together is what is in mind.

Ques. What scripture would you suggest to support the care meeting as we understand it?

J.T. Acts 15 -- the apostles and elders or elder brethren, came together to consider the matter. I have always regarded that as a text for the care meeting. We have no official elders now, but we have those who care unofficially, and it is right that we should come together to consider matters.

Ques. Would you say, however many gatherings there might be in one city, there could be but one care meeting?

J.T. Well, in that sense. There was the assembly at Jerusalem and Paul and Barnabas were received by the assembly there. In view of the special matter that came up in Antioch, the apostles and elders came together to consider it. The consideration is interspersed with wonderful information furnished by Barnabas and Paul as to the work of God among the gentiles; that is to say, the occasion was in line and vivified by information about the work of God everywhere. It is important to bring that in. And then, the consideration having taken place, we have Peter standing up in the midst of the brethren and setting out the principles that govern the position. That is another important matter. Job says, "How hast thou ... abundantly declared the thing as it is?" (Job 26:3). That is to say, it is important to shut out all bias and personal feelings! Then they had further conversation. There was a large number of brethren there; and then James confirms what Peter says -- that is, you have two witnesses. There were many witnesses as regards the matter in hand, but there are two witnesses most prominent as to the principles that govern the position. That is one of the greatest things you can think of in this matter, to have the thing fully set out by competent witnesses,

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and then, to have the facts and the principles. Finally, all these being furnished, we are told they wrote a letter. It says, "It seemed good to the apostles and to the elders, with the whole assembly". Then, "It has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" -- that is the decision, the thing is carried into effect and set out authoritatively. I think that is the idea as to our care meetings. We have to be very small and humble about them, but there is the general thought of the facts being accurately set out on the principle of witness, and then the principles, and then the decision. So that the apostles and the elders with the whole assembly were brought into it.

A.S.L. There is no decision apart from the whole assembly.

J.T. That is the idea.

Rem. "That every matter may stand upon the word of two witnesses or of three" (Matthew 18:16).

J.T. Yes, that is one of the maxims laid down in the second letter to Corinth.

Ques. What have you in mind when you refer to the assembly involving saints acting organically -- what does that convey?

J.T. I was speaking first about the care and watchfulness that is needed that all the saints are brought into this, that they might see what they are called to, not only in heaven but now, in carrying out the government of God. Israel being set aside, the assembly is the vessel for that, and every saint is to be brought into it, to see what he is called to in the way of functioning in divine administration. Now care is that all the young brothers and sisters are brought into it; they are brought to see by attention, by care and by teaching, what this great vessel is. So the Lord told Paul He had much people at Corinth, and, as soon as that is recorded, it is added the apostle stayed at the place for eighteen months, teaching the word of God. That alludes to the

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tabernacle in the wilderness, that God is going to have a vessel organically formed, set up here, for the setting out of His thoughts; that is what is in mind. It is a very great matter that the young saints should come into this, and the elder ones are responsible to bring them into it.

Ques. Would the teaching of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 18 as to the possibility of a sheep going astray help us in our localities?

J.T. That is right. Sheep are contemplated as going astray, and the Lord pictured a shepherd going after one. Then He goes on to speak of a brother offending another, which enters into what we are saying. How is this matter going to be settled? That is what Matthew 18 teaches. It is to be settled by the brothers, if possible, settling it between themselves. We should not burden the assembly more than necessary, whether it be in providing for material needs, or exercising judgment. If two brothers can settle a matter between themselves, it is what the Lord directs; but, if that be impossible, the word is "tell it to the assembly", without saying a word as to what the assembly means. It had already been mentioned in chapter 16; now it is assumed to be known, and the Lord says, "tell it to the assembly". That is what we want to come to, what is involved in the assembly as mentioned in Matthew 18.

Ques. Do we not have to be very careful not to make a thing an assembly matter that is not suitable to consider there?

J.T. I think that is what is meant. "Let not the assembly be charged" is mentioned in regard to another matter, but it is an important principle. To use common language, let it be settled out of court -- it is much better.

Ques. Would not the thought of covering come in in telling a brother his fault between "thee and him alone"?

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J.T. Quite so. The more circumscribed evil is the better; it is only when all else fails that it should be brought to the assembly.

F.I. If we get the care meeting in Acts 15 do we get the basis of it in Matthew 18:20, "Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them"?

J.T. Well, that fits in with our own times. "Again I say unto you ..." is a division in the chapter. The earlier part of the chapter contemplates the assembly as intact, as set up by the apostles. But when the Lord says, "Again I say unto you", He refers to later times. "Two of you" refers to two of the assembly; and then "two or three" of the assembly as gathered to the Lord's name have Him. I think we should recognise that in our so-called care meetings, so that there is power to deal with matters; it is, "There am I in the midst of them". The Lord keeps the persons in mind; they are so pleasurable to Him, those of the assembly; He is in the midst of them.

F.I. If we have a sense of the Lord's presence there it will steady us.

J.T. How great a matter it is when we are dealing with these cases to exclude all bias and personal feelings and to deal with the matter as it is, letting all the facts be furnished, and counting that the Lord is there. He is there specifically in regard to the matter we have on hand, and He knows what we have come together for. He is thoroughly with us, and He is with us according to what we have in our minds -- that is how He regards us. It says the Lord was with David, and the Lord is with us; He is not less interested than we in anything that is going on, and how interested a spiritual man is in a meeting in a difficult case. Well, the Lord says, 'I am with you throughout' -- "There am I in the midst of them" -- we are doing the thing.

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Ques Do you think the recognition of the status "my assembly" in Matthew 16 would sober and help us as to what we may bring to it as indicated in Matthew 18?

J.T. Quite so. How glorious a matter it is that it is Christ's assembly!

Ques. Would this thought of shepherding in Acts 20 be important as following on the verse where Paul has not shunned to declare the whole counsel of God? I wondered whether those who took up care would be in their measure in the light of that.

J.T. That is right.

Ques. And the persons being cared for are saints by calling; would that enter into it?

J.T. Just so. They are saints by calling as Paul was an apostle by calling -- that is the basis of our position.

Now in 1 Corinthians 3 we have the assertion that the Corinthians were God's husbandry and God's building. God's husbandry is an agricultural thought with a view to fruit; but they are God's building with a view to dwelling and with a view to the assembly functioning, and it runs on to the thought of the saints being the temple. The elders are telling you that you are essential to this institution where God's mind is to be made known; you are essential to this great matter, and you should attend all the meetings, because it is in the meetings that the mind of God is made known. Then those who are building are to be given to understand that they must be building right material or they will interfere with the divine thought. Everything must make for the divine thought that the company is to be the temple where God speaks, and every one is essential to it, so that each should be there in intelligence. Any real exercise may be taken up by the Spirit at any given time and used to convey the mind

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of God for all, for the Spirit operates with what is there in the meeting as we come together, and He might take up my exercise and use it to convey the mind of God to all; so that it is essential I should be there. I think that is what is meant in Acts 2:1 in saying they were all there.

Ques. When you speak of what is organic, do you mean that each brother and sister should hold themselves as responsible to function like each member of the human body?

J.T. That is what is in mind. Sisters are there, they are not speaking, of course, but that does not mean they are not thinking or feeling. They ought never to be there as members of a congregation. As sitting there in assembly we are sitting in relation to others, and the Spirit takes account of my attitude and uses me in it to bring about the great organic thought. So that the exercise in any one of us in that way becomes general; the brother who may be speaking conveying the mind of God, is affected by what is present, by the wealth that is there.

Ques. Is not that a very serious but wonderful thought you have just expressed that the brother speaking is affected by the wealth or otherwise that is there?

J.T. It is very important, but it is encouraging, too, to those who minister. The presence of spiritual sisters is apt to be helpful. The presence of unspiritual ones is apt to hinder. That is what is so serious about coming to a meeting without exercise.

Rem. Paul speaks about not being able to say certain things because of unspirituality, but among the perfect he said he could speak the wisdom of God.

J.T. Well, I think many come to meetings just as people go to church to hear the minister; the whole matter is in his hands; they have no responsibility at all. That is not the church of God; the church of God is that each person is of it and responsible as

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in it, and if it is to function according to His mind, I must be there, and there in exercise. "The temple of God is holy".

A.S.L. Would exercise be that of faith?

J.T. I think that is one of the first things, that we come together in faith, and then that we are able to abstract ourselves. The power of abstraction is such a great thing in christianity, to be able to abstract your mind from other things for the moment and devote yourself to one thing.

A.S.L. And with faith there would be expectancy.

J.T. Yes. If we get the organic thought that the assembly is an organism, it will help us, for an organism requires refinement of mind and affection and ability to shut out for the moment extraneous things, things that might be right in their own place, but not now.

Ques. Would the assembly in that sense be set over against all in this world where the scene is filled with the thought of organisations? Would the assembly as a living organism be God's answer to that?

J.T. That is the thought, and what a marvellous thing that is, that God should set up His assembly here so fortified and ramified that it should be immune from all the influences around, that God should have His place in it and His mind be told out.

A.S.L. That is a fine distinction between organism and organisation.

J.T. Yes, organisation is a question of public order; we come together and sit down in assembly, and there are notices and what not to be given out -- these are all public, done exactly as they should be done. So the apostle constantly refers to the instructions; the thing is properly ordered, adjusted, you may say, organised. Things are done according to the mind of God, because it says He is the God of order. But an organism requires more than order; there are

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unseen conditions in an organism. I mean, conditions that do not appear on the surface, but the effect of them appears.

A.S.L. An organism would be a living thing; organisations would be rules and regulations with a committee to see that they are enforced.

J.T. Yes, the word 'body' here contemplates it is something living, "We, being many, are ... one body". Each one of us has the thing in his own physical constitution.

Ques. Do we see that worked out when, in Acts 6, they were told to choose seven men, and they chose out seven men and among them Stephen who was full of faith and of the Holy Spirit? Does it not show what material there was there in the way they acted?

J.T. Yes, that was in Stephen's service as a deacon. A deacon's work is that of a novice, but the organism includes every brother and sister in a locality and each should function in his or her place. There are organs in the human body that are governed by the mind, and there are organs that are self-acting, not dependent on the mind: a very remarkable thing, which refers to the body of Christ also, that there are affections, there are feelings, moving -- you are conscious of them. If you stand up to speak to the saints, you must use your mind, but, sitting with the saints spiritually, there are movements that are not directed by the mind: the more spiritual we are the more of them there are. So the psalmist says, "My reins instruct me" (Psalm 16:7), showing how throughout, the believer is viewed as in the body. He may be a member that functions because he loves; the thing is always there, love is always there. Love functions itself, indeed love is spoken of almost as if it were a person in this epistle -- it never fails.

Ques. Verse 9 says, "Ye are God's husbandry;" would not that suppose there is some formation going on which should be available when we are together?

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J.T. You mean the fruit is developed?

Rem. Yes, there is something there. God's husbandry is not a barren piece of ground with no flowers or fruit of any kind; there is something going on, some development.

Ques. Is not the husbandry the fruit of patient labour? Can we not reverently suggest the patience of God in grace?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. When it says, "Let each see how he builds", does it refer only to those who minister or to each one?

J.T. I think the idea is that love edifies. No doubt Paul is alluding to those who minister, for the saints are formed by what they receive in the way of teaching, but the general principle is that love edifies. If love is amongst us it works for the self-edification of the body in love. But I have no doubt when the apostle says, "Let each see how he builds" he refers to those who minister, for there were those who were producing bad doctrine. We must be careful in our ministry that we are governed by Scripture, that we are not ministering fanciful things, for saints are very apt to take on fanciful things. We have to watch that, the minister has to watch it above all, that he presents what is scriptural.

Ques. Is the thought that there is that which is valuable and that which is worthless in regard to these things?

J.T. Manifestly. First, gold, silver, precious stones; secondly, wood, grass, straw. Wood might be used in a building, but the apostle is not dealing with that; he is using a symbol to show what is real or acceptable and what is not. The first three, I think, are what abides; the second three will be burnt up by the judgment of God.

Rem. But not the workman.

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J.T. No, not if he is a christian. Then there are those who corrupt the temple of God by wicked teaching -- these are destroyed, a terrible thought that! The first paragraph in the epistle contemplates the assembly in its status in a locality as a vessel for God. The word 'assembly' was common among the Jews, of course, and among the Greeks it was very common; hence the force of the word as implying something for God, that He has such a thing as that. It is viewed later as over against the Jewish synagogue, and the like, and then the gentile temple, and then the assembly of God -- God has that, He has that kind of property. He differentiates as to kinds of property, and these verses speak of a certain kind of property that belongs to God. But the saints are viewed as His assembly in a city.

A.S.L. And the thought in the word 'assembly' is definitely a company called out just as truly as Abraham was called out; ecclesia means that.

J.T. Yes, so it is not of the world, it is called out of it. "Of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who has been made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and holiness, and redemption" (1 Corinthians 1:30). That is to say, the saints, as of God, form it, an assembly implying intelligence, a vessel God can use for the carrying out of His thoughts and His government in this world -- a very, very great thing.

A.S.L. Into which no thought of nationality can enter.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Would not the greatness of that thought give it the first place in our hearts?

J.T. That is what I am trying to stress, that the elders make it their business to impress on the young people that they are essential to this. And think of the dignity of it, that they are called out to be a vessel here superior to the world, for the carrying

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out of divine thoughts, of the government of God, in this world.

A.S.L. That was God's thought for Israel, to be separated from all people to be for God, so it dates from Abraham's day.

Ques. Why does it go on to say, "With all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

J.T. It is to bring out the universal bearing of the local position, that we are not independent churches, or assemblies like some of the sects. For instance, there are certain of them who are congregationalists. That is to say, the whole matter is in the congregation; it is not true; that is not in the mind of God. The congregation refers to this particular company, whereas the assembly of God is local, but the bearing of it is universal. Hence we should never, in our local administration, refuse a visiting brother to have part in it, for the universal idea should always be present. How beautiful, how dignified this is! "The assembly of God which is in Corinth;" the point is, there is the local city. Then, you must not shut out the other, "with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours".

Ques. In Numbers you get the whole assembly of the children of Israel, and then they are numbered as of their tribes, but "the whole assembly of the children of Israel" would involve the universal thought.

J.T. It would.

Ques. You have referred several times emphatically to the assembly of God. Would it help us to understand our position better in the light of that if we understood that everything outside of it really pertains to the assembly of the wicked, therefore we must value increasingly God's assembly?

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J.T. Yes, there is dignity attaching to it that is of God. If you think of Corinth, what it was, you might go into the city (one has often pictured it) and there might be a Jewish synagogue in the street, and a heathen temple, and then an assembly of God. Anyone might go down the street and go in one after another; then he finally comes to the assembly of God and finds these people. What a difference there is in the idea of temple! You come into the assembly of God, where men and women are sitting in subjection to one another and to the Lord, and they are marked by intelligence and holiness -- what an atmosphere! If I am at all exercised, I sit down there and I say, 'This is my place, I am at home here. The environment answers to my exercises and my needs'. Indeed, that is what is said one falls down there, as the ministry is going on, and acknowledges "that God is indeed amongst you". What that is to heaven! What God has here in that way! And, of course, the thought is that brothers and sisters here in Coventry might see they are essential to all this, they are called to all this, so that there might be some little setting out of God in this city, of His mind, and His order. The Lord's supper should be seen as showing that the Lord is rejected; it is all known in this circle, everything is understood, it is where you get everything resolved -- everything in this world is cleared there. You love to answer to the Lord's words "my assembly", and then "God's assembly;" that word is very much loved in heaven, and heaven is looking down to see it exemplified in however few of us there may be in the places where we are.

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DIVINE SOWING

Matthew 13:3, 23, 37 (last clause), 38

I wish to speak about divine sowing, which is the subject of this section in Matthew. Satanic sowing is also spoken of in this section, which I only mention now, perhaps coming to it a little later, but the thought in my mind is divine sowing. God had it in mind from the outset. The more we look into the first chapter of the Bible, the more we shall be impressed with what God had in mind as opened out later. What we get there is the earth as come out of the general chaotic engulfed state of things, out of the waters, and it is called "the dry land". "Let the dry land appear" was the divine word. And then, as it appears, we have the great general features of fertility or fruitfulness, so that the earth was to cause the grass to spring forth; that is, there was in it latently the power of life, set there by God. No doubt the submerged conditions may be regarded as tending to this power of fertility, which God intended in His wise ways to use, and "the earth brought forth grass, herb producing seed after its kind, and trees yielding fruit, the seed of which is in them" (Genesis 1:12). We have thus, dear brethren, the idea of soil for sowing, which is never lost sight of throughout the Scriptures, having in mind men, women and children divinely prepared for the reception of the work of God. The idea may also cover a certain barrenness from mere profession, but the general thought is that God should sow in soil which would bring forth a crop. Later the idea was marred in the sin of Adam and Eve which caused the curse, and briars and thorns came up. Fertility was in it indeed, but the land yielded but a little, not in its full strength, showing how sin affects the soil in men and women.

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Then we find that in the histories of the heavens and the earth, before sin came in, there is an allusion to the "herb of the field before it grew" (Genesis 2:5), God taking account of us potentially, as He can, as knowing the end from the beginning. He reckons according to the end, for everything must conform to His mind and there can be no discrepancy between the divine requirement and the divine results -- they fit exactly. In the histories of the heavens and the earth we have the herb and the shrub all taken account of before they grew; and then, as I said, they come under the curse. How terrible the curse, and how terrible the possibility of our bringing the curse upon ourselves. It is not characteristically the time of curse, thank God, but the idea is not excluded, the idea applies, and the solemn warning is that the action of sin or will in us renders us sterile and unfruitful. Peter deals with this, as other writers do. But the flood, the deluge, was a wonderful matter, much more wonderful than we are prone to think it, not simply in the outpouring of the waters and the springing up of the waters, but in the divine design that entered into it, in the presentation of Christ and His death in it. So that we return in Genesis 8 to seed-time and harvest; there is no suggestion of sterility at all. You can understand it, beloved brethren, because it is a question of God's way of looking at things abstractly, ignoring that which is not in accord with that with which He is dealing. He has a right so to regard things and He does, so that it says He "smelled the sweet odour", a savour of rest, and it says "Jehovah said in his heart ..." One of the most interesting things is that God says things in His heart. The words of God are not very often mentioned in Scripture -- they are mentioned -- but what He says in His heart is certainly most interesting; His whole Being, so to say, is in it. He "said in his heart ... Henceforth, all the days of the

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earth, seed time and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease". That is the state of things physically up to the present time and it will continue while the earth remains. But I speak of it in its spiritual significance, dear brethren, that this seed time and harvest, the two seasons, run on concurrently. I mean to say, seed time may be today, and the harvest of a previous sowing may be today too. That makes it wonderfully interesting, that a gospel meeting may be both: the seed may be sown for a future harvest, and the harvest of an earlier sowing may be reaped; we should have an eye for that.

We get later the idea of a field, not simply as used in chapter 11, a general plain or level place, but a field as a special part of the earth. God deals with specialities as well as generalities, and so does Satan. So when Jehovah directed Abraham to look to the east and to the west and to the north and to the south, the whole breadth of the land, and said it should all be his, that is a great generality.

The gospel presents great generalities, that is to say, great truths that are applicable to all, but it also presents specialities. And so you find with Abraham the purchase of a field. A field that I believe will yield a greater crop of fruit than any field. That is the field that Abraham bought of Ephron the Hittite with current money of the merchant. It was a definite transaction on both sides. It had reference, beloved brethren, to the burying place of the lovers of Christ, of the dead in Christ. You will observe in reading the well-known chapter which treats of the subject of the first burial recorded in Scripture, that much more is made of the field and the cave than is made even of the dead saint, that is, Sarah. Not that she is not spoken of as she should be, for Scripture is not only verbally accurate but spiritually accurate, and so we find the years of the life of that dear saint

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of God, that sister, who is classified among the holy women of old -- a model sister. The Spirit of God dwells upon the years, not simply of Sarah, but "the years of the life of Sarah" (Genesis 23:1). She is the seed, but what is in the mind of God is the life of that dear saint, the years of the life mentioned twice, as you will observe, in that verse. "The life of Sarah was a hundred and twenty-seven years: these were the years of the life of Sarah". She is the first to be sown in this field; she is one of the dead in Christ. It is well for us, dear brethren, to face this matter of dying in Christ. Blessed are they, it says later, "who die in the Lord from henceforth" (Revelation 14:13) under certain circumstances. It is blessed to live in Christ -- "the years of the life of Sarah". It is blessed to die in Christ -- "to depart and to be with Christ" indeed. Sarah is the first, as I said, to be buried, to be sown, in that field. Jacob refers to it and refers to others who joined her, the great family of the dead in Christ who shall rise first. What a crop will appear! I am using the agricultural term because Scripture does. Scripture makes the clearest possible statement as to the dead in Christ, that the dead saint is "sown in corruption", a very sorrowful consideration and yet it has to be faced, "Sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruptibility". "Sown in dishonour" -- a word we had better note too; whatever our ancestors, whatever our distinctions in this world, king or beggar -- "sown in dishonour" but "raised in glory". What a crop, beloved, incorruptible persons standing up in that field, as it were, honourable, glorious persons come up out of that sowing standing there side by side. "Sown in weakness" we are told, for it is really a question not of breathing out but breathing in, "Sown in weakness, it is raised in power". Think of these things put together. "Sown", again it says, "a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body". Put these four

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things together, dear brethren, and you will become encouraged to face death if it be the will of God that we should die. And it is the will of God; that is the thought of the death of the saints in Scripture. Moses, who represents the ministry, standing out pre-eminently as dying by the will of God. He went up to die at the direction of God. So that these four things put together in our souls as a matter of faith enable us to face death, to face it victoriously, because of our knowledge, of our faith of the operation of God that raised Christ. For Christ is the first-fruits, again an agricultural term, as I may say, "Then those that are the Christ's at his coming". What a glorious prospect enters into that field. The Spirit of God stresses that the money was weighed out by Abraham, "four hundred shekels of silver, current with the merchant;" there is no question about it. It is a question of what the Lord Jesus has secured now, a right of way for the burial of His people where they are watched over, where He can find them, where He will know where to go to get them. He will stand and call them out and they will come out, they will come out in incorruption, in glory, in power, and as spiritual. What an army, what a family, all in accord and in correspondence with Christ the First-fruits, "those that are the Christ's at his coming". And indeed we are told, so as to make it more glorious, "they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years". "Blessed and holy he who has part in the first resurrection". I am speaking of this because it is so necessary that we should face this matter as real christians, real believers, real men and women of faith as believing in the resurrection, believing in Christ risen -- Christ the First-fruits, "then those that are the Christ's at his coming". Therefore, as I said, what a field!

Then we have another field in Genesis, a field not for burial, not for sowing, but a field that is spoken

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of as having a certain odour. It is a person, and if one person, any number of persons of the same kind. Isaac, a type of the risen Man, as Jacob came to him, says, "The smell of my son is as the smell of a field which Jehovah hath blessed" (Genesis 27:27). What potentialities in Jacob! Scripture is full of it. Later Jehovah says, "I will sow her [meaning Israel] unto me in the land" (Hosea 2:23), indicating a special place, the place of purpose. For young men and young women as believers are sown unto God in a special place, and what is that special place? Amongst the brethren, in the kingdom of God, in the assembly. They are not to be sown in the world. Suppose any of us has a son with ability to shine in the world, what shall we do? What do, alas, many of our dear brethren? They prepare such a one for the world; they have him educated for it; they are not sowing him in the land, they are sowing him in the world, and what will they get? They will get a crop they do not expect. Maybe they do, maybe they have no other thought. But how sorrowful to sow your son or your daughter in the world. Jehovah says, "I will sow her unto me in the land". The prophet Hosea is a remarkable prophet, a man full of feeling, whose mind runs rapidly and changes from one thing to another in his affections, because of the state of things in Israel. He is full of denunciation in one breath, and full of praise, full of glorious anticipation in the sovereignty of God in the next. But his son -- his firstborn -- is called Jizreel, meaning 'God will sow'. Let God sow our children -- of course He will use us to do it -- and if God sows them, He will sow them in the land; that is what all our prayers as to them are for at the beginning.

Now I come on to Matthew who would follow up this line as regards sowing. Matthew is the great gospel for young people. Some of you may perhaps think you prefer Luke or John, which I can understand,

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but if there is to be sowing in the land as I have been saying, if there is to be sowing and fruit for God assembly-wise, let us understand Matthew. Luke records that the Lord Jesus, when His glorious service was rejected by Israel, rejoiced in spirit (Luke 10:21). Rejoicing in spirit implies depth of feeling, but intelligent feeling. It was not rejoicing in soul there; we do not get such a thing as "My soul magnifies the Lord" as with Mary (Luke 1:46), but rejoicing in spirit alludes to intense feeling, buoyant feeling too, and He says, according to both Matthew's and Luke's account, "I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes. Yea, Father, for thus has it been well-pleasing in thy sight" (Matthew 11:25, 26; Luke 10:21) (similar). That is, He would enlist the young people -- you are the ones -- meaning those unsophisticated as regards the world, thought little or nothing of in the world. In school you are looked on with scorn because you love Jesus, and in the business place you come under reproach because you love Jesus, because you love the saints. The Lord says, "Babes;" He speaks to the Father about them. Can anything be more interesting than to hear the Lord Jesus speak to the Father about them? And that is what He does. Later, He calls a little child to Him, not now a babe; Scripture, as I said, is perfectly accurate, spiritually as well as verbally; He calls a little child to Him, meaning that the child has advanced a little spiritually and is at the Lord's call. The Lord is calling you now; He expects certain of you to hear; He would make much of you. He set him amongst the brethren, amongst the disciples. Think of who those disciples were; they were the most distinguished people in the universe and that little child was set amongst them. It is greater to be set amongst them than amongst any society in the world.

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That is where he is set, and the Lord calls attention to him. Look at this little child set amongst the brethren; maybe the brethren will not treat him well. That is the place to be sown, amongst the brethren, set up there. He has already made progress. And then we have in chapter 21 a most remarkable thing that one has often spoken of -- the very remarkable and instructive incident of children singing in the temple. We love to sing in our sitting-rooms, and rightly singing to ourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, and making melody in our hearts to the Lord; not merely because the tune is nice, but to the Lord. But here are children singing the praises of Jesus in the temple, and the enemies of Jesus say, 'Do you hear what these say' What were they singing? They were saying the most intelligent thing, "Hosanna to the Son of David". That is what they were saying, one of the finest notes at the time. The Lord said, 'I heard what they said;' surely He did, it was delightful to His ear amid the din of that place, the changers of money and the sellers of doves, to hear those accents from the children. "Hosanna to the Son of David" -- that is Matthew. He gives the subject in a most orderly and constructive way throughout his gospel. So here Matthew records that the Lord leaves the house at the beginning of chapter 13 and enters into a boat; then in verse 36 He enters into another house. Now the house in which He had been in chapter 12 refers to the world's house; it refers to the society, beloved young people, that is all around us in the sphere of profession. You may get it in the basements of the church houses; you may get these things that attract the young, worldly things, under a religious guise. The Lord left that -- it refers to Judaism -- and went out by the sea -- then He spake this parable to the multitude. That is to say, the Lord would have a crop such as He had in His mind,

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such as Matthew outlines for us, and hence it is said that He spoke a parable saying, "The sower went out to sow". It is, I apprehend, the sower, not simply any sower, but the real one, for the sower here is Christ, although it does not say so. He went forth to sow; the idea is He is the Sower -- it is the characterising word of this passage that He is the Sower, and He has gone forth to sow, and He outlines the soil. There are four different kinds of soil, as we have often noticed. I only read of the fourth kind so as to show you what is current, that the Lord is having results, and no one can afford to be out of those results. The results are a hundredfold, sixty, and thirty. I apprehend the meaning is that, whilst there is a certain decline, the sowing is generally satisfactory. But no man of faith will be content with what is generally satisfactory, he wants the full amount; the Lord does, He looks for it, and hence you will find in the exhortation in the epistles, it is more and more. So that whilst we are not discouraged in what is generally satisfactory, we do not settle down in -- more and more is the word -- that you may "exceed and abound" more and more -- that is the idea. Well now, the result, as I said, is generally satisfactory, and the Lord's explanation of it is given, because the disciples asked Him not about the soils mentioned or even the seed mentioned, but about the manner of His ministry -- why was He ministering in this way? I have not a doubt that the manner of the ministry in these last days in unique, not that it is contrary to what was at the beginning, but it is unique, it belongs to this time. There the enquiry referred to the kind of ministry: Why was He speaking like that? Why was it parabolic? And the Lord explains and He points out that God is acting sovereignly, that He is discriminating in the ministry between persons who are, as we say, mere public professors and persons who have eyes to see; that is

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what is going on. I was reading only today notes of some ministry transcribed evidently by an unconverted person, and the ignorance is amazing: he or she did not understand the words, and yet they are perfectly simple to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. The ministry, beloved, that is being given today is not understood, it cannot be understood, by mere professing christians, and yet no one can afford to miss it. I may be under judicial limitations, and how terrible it is that God is obliged to put persons under judicial limitations because of their attitude and hardness. Yet they are not despised, they are the multitude and the Lord keeps on speaking to them, and, in speaking to them, hides the truth; yet it is all there, and perfectly discernible to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

After explaining it to His disciples, He goes on immediately to say that a certain man sowed a certain cereal in his field. It does not say that in regard of the first parable; this is speciality, and what is to be observed is that, although the Lord said the field is the world, it is the world from a certain angle, viewed from a certain viewpoint. It is not the Jewish world, nor the heathen world, nor the christianised world, it is the world held in reconciliation. God has a right to that. He has a right to take account of the world from His own point of view and to order it governmentally, so that the seed should make headway, that there should be a crop.

I would refer for the moment to the book of Daniel, to point out the prophetic instruction that explains what God has done to prepare for the gospel. Other things enter into it, of course, but the four monarchies are intended of God to order the world so as to prepare the way for the gospel. And that is the position at the present moment, and I have no doubt that this great empire is held as it is to keep the field open. The field is a large one and it is carefully

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governed in an external, providential way so that there might be results. This providential way of governing has borne towards the West almost entirely; that is to say, God has a right to the whole field and can use what part of it suits Him -- that is the idea. Well now, the Lord says a certain man sowed good seed in his field (verse 24). I want to point out that the seed in this case is not the word of God; that is the seed sown in the earlier parable -- as He calls it, the word of the kingdom (verse 19). I have no doubt that Romans is the word of the kingdom for us, and the right understanding of it makes sons of the kingdom. We shall never understand Romans until we arrive at the idea of sons of the kingdom. Not only are we brought into a kingdom, but we are made a kingdom, and that is the idea of sons, fully developed persons in regard of the particular matter before us. And that is the idea, dear brethren, that, having believed the gospel and received the Spirit, we develop into sons of the kingdom, and then we are sown in this field so that there might be others like us, sown in the land, as we were seeing in Hosea. Not that any christian should think of himself, but certainly he should never stop in his growth, and his desire should be that he might see others like himself. The primary thought is that we are all to be like Christ, to the end that He is presented in testimony here. The sons of the kingdom, those developed in the kingdom, are sown here in the field so that there might be others like them. Well now, that brings out, dear brethren, what we are in the mind of God as having believed the gospel, how that God, as it were, says, 'You might have been taken up at once into paradise, but no, you are to stay here'. That is a very solemn matter. The man in Luke 8 wanted to be with the Lord, but the Lord said, 'No, you stay there where you are'. He is a son of the kingdom, he is seen at the feet of Jesus, sitting, clothed and in his

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right mind. What was in the Lord's mind was to have another like him there, and another like him there, and another like him there, and to have a meeting there. The devil does not like that, and he sows his own sons, a vicious progeny indeed, but there they are, set down alongside of the believers in Christ. We are left here so that there might be others like us. The devil would spoil that by imitation, and so, dear brethren, the point is to be like Christ, so that, although you cannot fully imitate Him, yet when a needy soul comes in contact with you they may be able to say that there is christianity, there is the power of the kingdom. So the apostle says, "We ought, we that are strong, to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves" (Romans 15:1). Selfishness amongst us disqualifies us to be sown as sons of the kingdom. There is a power that goes with unselfishness, for the sons of the kingdom are strong. They have grown up in the kingdom of the heavens; hence the Lord has confidence in them as He had in that man whom He left in Decapolis, so that there might be others like him, and others like him, and that there might be assemblies in Decapolis. That is the thought, dear brethren.

That was all I had to bring before you at this time, and I think you will see, particularly in what I have just been saying, that there are to be left here in power true Roman christians -- sons of the kingdom in power here so that there might be multiplication and increase of our own kind.

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THE GLORIFICATION OF CHRIST AND ITS RESULTS AS SEEN IN MEN

John 7:39; John 17:1 - 3; John 12:16

J.T. These scriptures are, of course, familiar to us, but I think we might profit by linking up the truth seen in each as resulting from the glorification of Christ. One has glorification in mind, both as to what is above and what is in heaven, and then as to this word 'glorified' alluding to the exaltation of Christ as Man. The thought is to show how the platform upon which we are is more than that of resurrection, that God is operating from a standpoint of elevation. The apostle Paul speaks of being caught up into heaven, also into paradise (2 Corinthians 12:2 - 4), as if to enhance his position as witness here, to think of things from that altitude, far beyond the range of this world or this world's ways. Being caught up to the third heaven would point to the proof of heaven, what it is. The third would be a suggestion of full proof of the thought rather than mere doctrine as regards the place Christ has taken. Heaven is proved now, proved by a creature; not only that Christ has gone up there, but Paul.

H.F.N. Do you distinguish between the third heaven and paradise?

J.T. Yes, the passage does in 2 Corinthians 12. The first is as far as the third heaven; the other is "into paradise", as if he entered the thing. The first is more the elevation reached, so that the thing is proved as being the third, involving increase in the thought of heaven.

H.H. Where it says Christ has ascended up far above all heavens (Ephesians 4:10), does that go outside of the created sphere?

J.T. I understand so. The heavens are a most elevated part of the creation, but going beyond them would be a realm unknown.

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H.H. Then He gives a reason -- that He might fill all things. How would that fit in?

J.T. Well, that He can come into the creation from the highest point at any time.

A.J.G. Is it the idea of a dominant position from which He will fill all things?

J.T. It seems so, one involving His deity. Only a divine Person can enter an uncreated sphere. We can hardly grasp the thought; we can just touch on it, but it is uncreated, it is beyond all the heavens. There is nothing mentioned in creation more elevated than the heavens; the meaning is, 'raised up things' -- and He has gone beyond them, so that He can come in in His personal dignity and power and fill all things. Paul evidently does not convey that he went anything near that, but the idea of the third would mean full proof of the thing.

H.H. That is very helpful -- a high point from which He can fill everything.

J.T. The heavens are said to be for height; they represent height. There is depth corresponding, but "the heavens for height" (Proverbs 25:3), and He has gone beyond all that. The Son descended into the lowest parts, the heart of the earth, and He went far beyond all the heavens, answering to that, to bring out, I think, His deity. He ascended beyond all the heavens, but His glorification in the passages read is more what has taken place in relation to the purpose of God, the fulfilment of His thoughts, not necessarily to stress the deity of Christ, but what has happened so that the thoughts of God should be worked out from that point of view. The rivers of water here flowing out of the believer are linked up with that to show what christianity is. It is the Spirit here, of course, but the Spirit from that point of view.

Ques. Do you regard the thought of creation as being a necessity to being glorified?

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J.T. Yes, for the accomplishment of God's purpose; creation is the sphere of divine purpose. If we have anything beyond it, it is to bring out the deity of Christ, I think.

Ques. Would you contrast it with what the Lord says in John 20:17, "I ascend to my Father and your Father"?

J.T. Yes. It is not there a question of elevation, but of the Person more -- nothing could be greater than that.

A.E. So do you distinguish between His ascending, as His own act and the glorification?

J.T. I think so.

A.E. You attach particular significance to the fact that this occurs in relation to the feast of tabernacles. It is the glorification of Jesus here relative to the thoughts of God. I wondered if the setting in which these things appear would be important.

J.T. The feast of tabernacles was the best there was after the harvest had been gathered in, but there was not anything there -- people were thirsting. The Lord speaks in figure. He speaks of rivers of water flowing out of the believer, but then the evangelist, or the Spirit of God, adding to that, says, "This he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified". That is to say, the evangelist, by the Spirit, brings in christianity. What do you say as to that?

H.F.N. Yes. I would like to get a little clearer what you have definitely in view in the Lord being glorified.

J.T. It is to bring out, I think, the full moral elevation on which christianity stands as compared with millennial glory and blessing, that the saints might be imbued with that in their outlook and

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service. So that "this he said concerning the Spirit" is a comment of the Spirit by the evangelist to make the position clear, that if the rivers of water are flowing out, they are flowing out from that source.

H.H. I suppose it would refer back to Ezekiel's river.

J.T. No doubt. "As the scripture has said" -- the Lord uses that word Himself.

H.H. Is it not rather millennial there? Here it is christianity.

J.T. Yes. We can hardly confine it to Ezekiel because it is what the Scripture says in effect that is in mind. You cannot find exactly where it says this of the believer; it is what you gather up from the expressions and figures in the Old Testament.

H.H. It does seem a little singular that the writer should comment on this particular point of the truth and say, "This he said concerning the Spirit", for is there not a sense in which we take all the gospels as governed by the incoming of the Spirit?

J.T. Quite so. This particular allusion to the Old Testament by the Lord is enlarged on by the Spirit. Verse 39 is not what the Lord says, but what the Spirit, through the apostle, says, I think, to link up the great thought that is given expression to by the Lord with the great elevation to which He has gone. So we should have to search the Scriptures, as indeed He enjoins us to do in this very gospel. If He says, "As the scripture has said", and you say, 'I cannot find it', it is obvious we have not searched enough; that is, I think, what is meant. Because the Lord knew what was there, therefore it would be a question of searching from Genesis onwards as to this thought of water; what is the great general thought as to rivers in the scripture. It is rivers here. The first great thought of rivers is in Genesis 2, and it says a river went out of Eden to water the garden. The garden

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would be the spot of special blessedness; indeed it is the paradise of God. The river watered the garden, and from thence it was parted into four heads, as it says. That is, the idea was a universal watering, a general watering of the earth. We are told of the different heads by name, and there can be no doubt that the Lord had that great thought in His mind. It is not simply one river, as in Ezekiel, but rivers.

H.H. There would be a great deal of holy refreshment in the soul to bring about a result like this, the taking in of divine thoughts so that they would flow out from one's inward parts.

J.T. It shows how thoroughly the believer is purified, how throughout the idea of the water of purification is effective, for John uses water in two senses, one as purifying, and the other as refreshing. The believer as a vessel could not be used for rivers of refreshment to flow out of him unless he is purified. It is the believer purified.

Ques. Have you any thought that God has created and is going to morally elevate it? The Lord Jesus, as coming into His own creation and as Man, has been so morally elevated.

J.T. Yes, He is in the supreme place designed by God for His thoughts. I believe the allusion is to Genesis 2; the garden is an elevated spot morally; the river went out to water it, and thence parted; it passed through that elevated spot.

Ques. Carrying what was there further -- is that what you have in mind?

J.T. Carrying the thought of that spot, the paradise of God, the most elevated thoughts of God, and all that enters into the thoughts of God as to a believer's service in the wilderness -- how great it is!

Ques. Would this be subsequent upon chapter 4 of this gospel, "The water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life"?

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J.T. Yes, there it is springing up; chapter 4 is antecedent to this in the believer's history. Before you can touch the idea of a believer being a vessel of living water, there must be the idea of purification, for it is the inward parts that need purifying; the affections must be purified, so that in all my ministry and service I am not thinking of myself -- that would be impure -- but there is unselfishness, the affections rendered entirely unselfish, the mind freed of any ambition so that I am entirely unselfish -- as indeed a river would suggest. A river is suggestive of things coming to you in volume, with great refreshment and fructifying power accompanying its flowing out.

Rem. It gives a very exalted thought to the ministry, the thought of its flowing out from Christ glorified.

J.T. I think that is the suggestion. Paul speaks of a third heaven and then being caught up into paradise, paradise being suggestive of supreme blessedness. Paul is dealing with the idea of the river going that way; the Holy Spirit was in Jesus down here, but it is the Holy Spirit going that way, coming down.

A.J.G. Does it involve that God has the very best things that His love could devise for man?

J.T. That is what it seems to me. You take Euphrates. Well, one might explore it and ascend to the source without having the slightest thought of what was in the mind of God, and morally that river has come from the garden, from paradise; that was the idea, the four heads with one source only, universal in the bearing of it.

H.F.N. Why does it say, in reference to the first river, that "the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone" (Genesis 2:12)? Would that have any bearing on what you are speaking of?

J.T. I think so, I have often thought of that as showing what is in mind here. "The gold of that

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land is good" -- it would allude to the thought of christianity, I think, to the superior quality of the things that are worked out in connection with Christ glorified.

H.F.N. One had connected it a little with John 1:16. The river Pison means 'Fulness', does it not? "Of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace". Would that indicate the first river?

J.T. Very good: and "The gold of that land is good:" what fine gold you get in the first chapter of John's gospel, the beautiful traits that come out in the first chapter, and then in the two disciples that followed Him; indeed, all down that chapter it is remarkable how continuous is the chain of results; and then the Lord says, "Thou shalt see greater things than these".

Ques. So does John, at the beginning, bring before us what men look up to as the best and most elevated belonging to this world, in the marriage in Cana of Galilee? Then in Nicodemus and in the nobleman does he show how Christ supersedes the very best of men's thoughts?

J.T. Yes, I think that is good. Throughout the gospel, from the very outset, it is the fulness of Christ, "Of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace". It is one wave after another; so as you go on, in chapter after chapter, I think you have the gold brought out.

W.C. There were two rivers mentioned in the scripture you read last night -- the river of Egypt and the river Euphrates.

J.T. Boundaries of the inheritance, you mean. I think that John's gospel would work it out. "The gold of that land is good". One after another come in; take the woman in chapter 4 -- you have the idea of water developed in her. The developments in John lift us up above the Jewish limitations; John works it out in a positive way here, and while

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it is here, he connects it with what is up there -- coming down.

Ques. How does this fit in with the thought of the river flowing out from the throne in Revelation 22:1?

J.T. You have what has been alluded to in Ezekiel 47, the waters flowing out from beneath the altar, and what strikes you is the fructifying power of it and that there is everything that conduces to life, even flowing to the east, a sterile district of the Dead Sea, all is turning to life, life in power there. And I suppose John in Revelation 22 alludes to that, only he makes it flow out of the throne, really out of the heavenly city, and what he stresses there are its crystal-like qualities, over against the qualities of the statesmanship in this world, all that has developed under christian influence, the corrupt darkening influences of diplomacy and that sort of thing. He enlarges on Ezekiel's river, I think, in that way causing it to flow from the throne instead of the altar. And he speaks of the street of it, and the tree of life on either side -- a very fine allusion to the millennial state of things.

Ques. Is it rather a lower idea bringing in the thought of authority?

J.T. Yes, I think it is over against diplomacy amongst men, showing what influences will flow out in the millennium from the heavenly city. A river is very largely a question of influence.

H.H. Might I ask you as to the thought of Son of man in relation to being glorified? What relation has that to what you are saying?

J.T. It is all of the same piece, only in John 13, when Judas went out, the Lord said, "Now is the Son of man glorified", meaning He would be glorified morally as to what He did on the cross: "And God is glorified in him", it says -- that all alludes to what He did at the cross; it is a question of moral glory. Then He says, "If God be glorified in him, God shall

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also glorify him in himself" -- that is, He would give Him such distinction, and He would do it immediately.

Ques. Do you think that refers to God Himself or to Christ Himself?

J.T. I think God Himself; it is very personal. But then it says He will glorify Him immediately; what is immediate would be the present glory Christ has in the assembly.

Ques. Would you link that with what we have in chapter 7?

J.T. Well, glorifying Christ in chapter 7 is more official, I think, in order to effect the counsels and the thoughts of God, but chapter 13 is more personal; that is, because of the moral glory that shone out in doing the will of God, God would glorify the Son Himself and glorify Him immediately. But in chapter 17 you have the Lord saying to the Father, "Glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee". Now we have glory in relation to His Person, His place with the Father, and that works out in glorifying God, the carrying out of all the divine thoughts here inclusive of eternal life, "As to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal". It is a question of the Son, not the anointed Man as in chapter 7; it is a question of the Son, that Person, engaged in carrying out the divine thoughts, glorifying God in that way, specially in the gift of eternal life.

Ques. Would this present the glory of the last Adam in chapter 17?

J.T. Just so, it is the quickening Spirit who gives eternal life.

H.H. Say a word as to what you have in mind with regard to eternal life.

J.T. It is connected here with knowledge; elsewhere it is connected with an order of things into which one enters, or in which one has part. "This

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is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". That is, it is a question of having things on earth here in persons who know, not rivers flowing out in the wilderness, but intelligent persons, persons who know the true God and Jesus Christ. It is the kind of person God intends to have here upon earth, persons who know and have eternal life in that way, who can give an account of things.

A.J.G. So John closes his epistle on that note, "We know that the Son of God is come", and so on.

J.T. Yes, and the more we think of it, the more we can see the moral greatness of it that He brings about a race like that, for it is no question of heaven, but of what He effects down here where sin and idolatry are.

H.F.N. Is not that true of every scripture in the New Testament that presents the glory of Christ, you have always a corresponding answer to it down here?

J.T. I think that could be worked out very profitably. I only suggest these two passages to show, in a general way, how John deals with the matter, that what we are engaged with is a question of moral elevation.

H.F.N. I do not think there is an exception throughout the New Testament but where you can trace a corresponding answer down here to the Lord as glorified.

J.T. Will you tell us a little more.

H.F.N. I was only thinking that perhaps Philippians 2 would substantiate that; after the Lord is presented as glorified, the saints come out as lights in the world. Then John 13:35 would bring them out, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves". You get a circle of love, do you not?

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J.T. Very beautiful, and it brings out what christianity is, the quality and the extent of it. This brings out a race of men here on earth who know God, "That they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". That is what I think we have here, the race of men He affects. Paul says, "One Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" (1 Corinthians 8:6), whoever we are, it is "by him". Here it is what we are here in the place of death and ignorance, resulting in idolatry and superstition, that He effects this by Him in that way, and that is a very great matter at the present time.

A.J.G. In John's epistle Christ is spoken of Himself as the eternal life; would you say what is the bearing of it? "He is the true God and eternal life" (1 John 5:20).

J.T. I suppose it links up with this passage. It is what He is as a representative; the fulness is there, for in truth it is in Him that we have to do with God. I think our minds are very vague as to God; our thoughts are very scattered in speaking to God. Our created minds require something to centre on, something that we can, as it were, compass -- that is, a Man, and that is, I think, how John would help us and bring us to know God in Christ. He does not give us the least suggestion that he fears contradiction; here it is 'Thee', that is the Father, there it is the Son who is the true God, a remarkable way of bringing out the Deity, whether in one Person or another, never seen in the Two severally -- I mean we have not two Gods -- but in the Father or in the Son, or maybe, in the Spirit. But when Jesus is said to be the true God that settles our minds, it makes them restful. I can compass something of Jesus. If I think of the Father, I think of His voice -- I have never seen Him; but, when I think of Jesus, then I have a Person who is compassable, in a measure at

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least. How that steadies the mind in prayer, in worship, that it is there that God is!

H.H. "He is the true God and eternal life". Does that not agree with what you have been saying? That is, it is what is true of Christ now as glorified -- not that it was not true before. Is not that the setting of the scripture?

J.T. I think so. John's epistle is what He is now. He uses 'was' too: "That which was from the beginning;" but "He is" is the present. But the eternal life means what He is as Man as pattern for the race.

-.E. The second verse of chapter 17 seems to be prior to the first in a sense. "As thou hast given him authority", the Lord then prays that the Father might glorify Him. "Glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee; as thou hast given him authority over all flesh". That seems prior to the glorification, does it?

J.T. I think it is in view of the glorification. He is the Head of every man, of course; He has authority, but I think it is in the glorified position that He effects everything. "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand". But, as far as one can see it, He never finished anything down here. He finished the work of redemption, but all that He did, as here in the flesh, was preliminary, the finishing of everything is in the glory -- here is nothing finished down here really. "I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it" is spoken here anticipatively of the work of redemption.

Ques. Does John's presentation of Christ glorified stand over against the attitude of the world in rejecting Him, not recognising who He was?

J.T. No doubt, but I think in chapter 7 it is official; He had come here and the Holy Spirit was here in Him, but nothing could be effected from that

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point of view until redemption was accomplished and He was glorified. So that now He is officially there and the Holy Spirit is here. That is, the position of christianity is fixed, and then the work goes on, I think that is what is in mind in chapter 7. In chapter 17 it is the Son, to bring about a race suitable to God, not yet for heaven -- that is not the point in the earlier verses. Lower down, when He touches the idea of "the men whom thou gavest me", His mind is on the heavenly side, but here it is for the earth, that there should be such persons here -- who else could understand?

H.H. That is why F.E.R. used to say that eternal life was in contrast to a spirit of death down here now.

J.T. Quite so. The idea of eternal life earlier in the gospel is almost invariably in view of blessing.

Rem. So that you have a moral foundation there for the entrance into what is spiritual in the earlier part of the chapter. These verses bring out an order of man that stands; the point is to glorify God, "That thy Son may glorify thee". It is not our blessing here, it is more to glorify God, that there is such a race of men who can stand the test in the presence of death and of idolatry.

H.B. Would this knowledge then be knowledge given from the glorified Son of God, thus making eternal life a very glorious thing?

J.T. Yes, from the glorified position. I should like that we should get into our minds the thought of this race of men, men who know God as the only true God, for it is over against the ignorance there is in the Establishment and in Rome, and in all these man-made things, and, of course, in heathendom and Judaism, which is all darkness and superstition. Well, what a thing it is to have men here who know God, the only true God; that is what the Lord has in mind, to have such men as that here in this world.

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Ques. Would it be like the last verse of chapter 16, "I have overcome the world"? He would have us here as overcomers.

J.T. That is how it works out. "Jesus Christ", not 'Christ Jesus' nor 'God's Son' in this particular statement, but "Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". I have no doubt that John's epistle opens it up in a fuller way.

Ques. Would Paul and Silas in prison, in Acts 16, superior to every element with which they were surrounded, be an example of men in the good of eternal life?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Is there a difference between 'life eternal' and 'eternal life'?

J.T. "The eternal life" -- the Lord had in His mind the whole idea of it, that is, that we should know God, know the Person to whom He is speaking, and know Jesus according to what He was down here.

H.F.N. Would you mind opening up a little more what you referred to as the difference between eternal life as on the ground of blessing, and then as producing this race of men?

J.T. I think the former is an order of being, an order of things, as the end of our exercises before God. As to entering into it, the Lord says in Matthew 25:46, "These shall go away into eternal punishment, and the righteous into life eternal". It is an order of things which is described, I think, in the Lord when He left Jerusalem at night and went to the mount of Olives; He lived there with God -- I think that is a description of it.

H.F.N. I think it is a point we should all like to have some help about.

J.T. Eternal life is a sphere and order of things that takes us out of the world. "There hath Jehovah commanded the blessing" (Psalm 133:3). But what He has in mind is a race of men here in the presence of idolatry.

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H.F.N. In the Songs of degrees you have the thought of brethren dwelling together in unity (Psalm 133) and then the Lord commanded the blessing; would the men standing by night in the house of the Lord (Psalm 134) represent what you are speaking of?

J.T. Quite so. The blessing is one thing, but coming out in the good of it is another thing. What can we do in these days unless we know "the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent"?

H.F.N. Would you mind just contrasting your thought of the knowledge of God in the way you have been speaking of it and what is involved in the message the Lord sent by Mary? What is the difference between our knowledge of God in relation to eternal life and our knowledge of God as opened up in chapter 20, "My Father and your Father ... my God and your God"?

J.T. The latter is an eternal setting. "This is the true God" is, of course, a relative term over against idolatry; and "Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent" is a relative thought. But the bearing of "my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God" is eternal; it is not the 'true God', it is "my God". Beautiful delivering thought to get alongside of Jesus, so to speak, and see how He would speak to God! What an advantage the apostles had in listening to Him speaking to God -- what a wonderful thing it was! You would never forget it if you heard the Lord Jesus speak to God; you would get a grasp of God you could not have otherwise.

Rem. The Athenians had an altar to the unknown God (Acts 17).

J.T. Quite so; this is over against that. Paul begins with the thought, we are all His offspring; that is one element in the knowledge of the true God.

A.J.G. It greatly enhances the idea to connect with it the thought of God being glorified here in the

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midst of actual conditions, that this thought of eternal life has that in view.

J.T. The one would be an out-of-the-world condition of things, as Mr. Darby said, which is described in the Lord's position on the mount of Olives at night; and then the turning round and coming into conditions here as representing the order of man who will do the will of God, I think that is what is in mind. One who will glorify God in those circumstances.

Rem Mr. Darby spoke of the relationship and being in which eternal life consists. How do you understand that relationship?

J.T. Well, it is set up here in relationship to God who is revealed to us there; you speak to God as your Father.

H.H. Then, if you do not allow that eternal life comes to an end, what is its relation to that verse in John 20, "my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God"?

J.T. It is a question of what the Lord has in His mind, that is, an eternal state of things. There is no need to talk of eternal life where there is no death to be faced. Not that the idea of life is not always present in eternity, we are made to live with Christ, but eternal life is obviously a relative term.

Rem. So "in him was life" is simply a way of expressing life in manhood.

J.T. Well, that means, of course, more than saying you have eternal life; it is in a divine Person, only of Him could it be spoken in that way.

Rem. The last time the Lord speaks of death in John's gospel is to say the saint should glorify God in dying. We should think He might have said, 'By what death he should die;' but He says, "By what death he should glorify God" (John 21:19).

J.T. Very good. How could we glorify God in death aside from the knowledge of eternal life?

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I am glad you referred to that. "Thou shalt stretch forth thy hands:" that is the idea of true man; it is Jesus, perfect resignation to the will of God.

Rem. Had Peter died earlier he might have glorified himself, in his own strength and devotion.

J.T. Quite so.

Well, the last passage shows how knowledge is connected with the glorification of Jesus. "Now his disciples knew not these things at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things to him". I referred to it just to bring out the idea of knowledge, knowing things. In chapter 2: 22 we have the disciples knowing after He was risen; that is, knowing the power that was there after He was risen; but here it is not that, it is after He was glorified they know these things.

Ques. Is that what the Lord refers to in John 12:50 before He goes to die? "I know that his commandment is life eternal". Would you say a word as to "this is" in chapter 17 in connection with this "know" in chapter 12?

J.T. "This is the eternal life", you mean. In chapter 12 the Lord says, "I know that his commandment is life eternal;" that is the will of God, alluding to Psalm 133. I suppose the commandment is there; the commandment is eternal life. But in chapter 17, "This is the eternal life" is the full thought of it, the article being before it. We have the true thought of it now; the Lord intends to glorify God in manhood.

Ques. Would you say the Lord names the thing for the first time, "This is"? It takes a new character here.

J.T. It is very remarkable that He should say to His Father what eternal life is. You are dealing with the most exalted thought of it, I believe, for these are the words that passed between the Father and

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the Son about it. It is a question of the knowledge of God and of Jesus Himself.

A.J.G. What is in your mind as regards knowing in connection with Christ glorified in this chapter?

J.T. Well, a good deal could be said about it, as to how this range of things is linked up with the knowledge of Jesus. Now in chapter 2 they understood a certain thing when He was risen; it is not that here, but when He was glorified; that is the full thought; so that we should learn things from that point of view.

Ques. Was it that knowledge that carried the testimony through in such power in the Acts?

J.T. John has Paul in mind and he speaks from that altitude. The Holy Spirit come down from that point is the Source of true knowledge now. We see everything clearly, 'Heavenly light makes all things bright, seen in that blissful gaze;' it is the heavenly position that dominates everything.

H.B. Would it be the operations of the Spirit in the saints?

J.T. That is what is in mind, but he is stressing the idea of the glory of Jesus.

H.B. Stephen saw the outshining of the glory of God, but he saw a Man standing. He was able to focus his mind upon a living Man, the expression of all the glory of God that to him was inscrutable.

J.T. The idea of the Man is to fix your thoughts.

Rem. As Peter says, "God ... the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus" (Acts 3:13). God has come within our range in that way in Jesus.

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SONSHIP AND LEVITICAL SERVICE

2 Peter 1:17, 18; 1 Chronicles 23:1 - 6, 24 - 32

J.T. The enlargement of the thought of sonship as in Christ, which He has given us tends to enlarge and to increase the number of Levites as viewed in this chapter in Chronicles. The chapter explains in type how this comes about, namely, that as the Son is in power, in evidence, the spirit of sonship becomes more intelligible, for the idea is seen in the radiation of affection between the Father and the Son. David and Solomon are seen on the throne here, as we may say, together. There would be a greater sense of equality between them as Solomon is made king, and the reciprocation of affection between them, as before the people, would correspond in type with that which appears in the New Testament in Christ. So Peter tells us about what they saw; the 'we', I believe, is emphatic, that is, they were witnesses of what they saw and heard. There was a voice from the excellent glory which, it says, "we heard", and instead of "Hear him", it is, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight". That is, what Peter had in his mind was the relation between the Father and the Son of which they were witnesses, and which they would enjoy and take on themselves and pass on to others. So we learn from John's gospel that the thing was more or less continuous. "We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father". Colossians says we are translated into the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love, so the thought is before us, and the intent, among other things, is to enlarge those who take part in the service of God, in the priesthood, not merely to increase them as of the family of Levi, but to show that they were taking part in the most holy things in relation to the priesthood. That is what I had in mind; we might ponder over it so as

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to make it clear as to the enlargement of the Levites. First of all it is said (in verse 3), "And the Levites were numbered from thirty years old and upward", but when we come down to the other passage read, we find (in verse 25) David saying, "Jehovah the God of Israel has given rest to his people", and they were numbered from twenty years old and upward. The age is reduced so that the number is increased.

S.V. That brings more younger ones into it.

J.T. That is, I think, the point now, to bring the young men and women into the service. The more we get into the spirit of sonship, the more fit we are; in fact, we are not fit otherwise, and the thing has to be seen. Peter speaks of it as seen, and so does John, and Paul says we are translated into the kingdom of the Son of His love, which would mean that the Father and the Son are known in that way.

Rem. There was no upper limit, and as they apprehended the thought of sonship in that connection, so the enlargement of levitical service would go on.

J.T. There is no limit mentioned. We get the number from twenty years old and upward; they were numbered, it says, man by man, thirty-eight thousand. There would be a greater number according to the last words of David.

W.W. Is your thought that as sonship becomes better known amongst us, the liberty and dignity of it would take earlier results in the lives of the saints?

J.T. I think it does, and the children, brought into spiritual meetings, although their intelligence may not be very great at the beginning, begin to drink into the spirit of them and come into the spirit of sonship, and so can take part more readily in the assembly.

F.S.M. Is there a significance in the fact that Peter emphasises that they were with Him on the holy mount -- we know from the gospels that at that

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moment Peter was not very intelligent, but, as being with Him, he gained spiritual intelligence, and in his epistle he speaks of it from a much higher platform with greater dignity.

J.T. That is suggestive. I think it ought to help us that he does not allude here to the hesitancy he had and what he said and how unsuitable his remarks were on the mount. He had said, "It is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said" (Luke 9:33). If we look back on our histories, I suppose many of us would have to admit that we took much part, not knowing what we said. I do not think young people should be discouraged by that. Peter came into the good of what was there, although at first he knew not what he said. We were noticing this morning how Peter said, "When we were with him". How often he would regret his inefficiency at the moment, but then how he would rejoice in what the Lord had brought him to. We may all have that before us, that the Lord will bring us to it; we are not to give up. It was "as he was saying these things". Sometimes there is a divine intervention because things are not right, and at other times there is a divine intervention because things are right. In Luke 24 the Lord appears because things were right; they were saying, "The Lord is indeed risen and has appeared to Simon", and others were saying that He was made known to them in the breaking of bread. He appeared at that moment, as if it was a suitable time, things were favourable. But on the mount the intervention was when things were not right, and, as Peter was saying what was not right, the bright cloud appeared and the voice was heard. So, even if we say things that are not right, the divine intervention is to enable us to say things that are right. We shall come to it in time if we are patient.

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W.J.H. He does not mention that he was asleep. Do you think there is evidence that, when glorious matters are to be seen and heard, some of us are asleep, insensible to them?

J.T. A very remarkable thing one observes in our meetings for ministry is how ready people are to tell you they did not hear. Do you find that? I should be ashamed to say I did not hear: if I do not hear I do not get any good, and I am responsible to hear. If I go to sleep I do not get any good.

Ques. What is the import in verse 25, where David says, "Jehovah the God of Israel has given rest to his people, and he will dwell in Jerusalem for ever; and the Levites also have no more to carry the tabernacle"?

J.T. Well, David and Solomon represent the assembly more from the heavenly side when things are reached finally. Moses, of course, deals with the wilderness, the carrying period; not that that is over or does not exist today, but we have to take the two ministries as running together, and David is occupied typically with the heavenly side, the assembly answering to it as convened. It is when we are together in assembly that this applies fully, and that is what is so needed now, the understanding of being together in assembly and of taking part in it in freshness and youthfulness; because that is the one thing that dominates this section, the idea of youthfulness in sonship. The idea began early, that is, in 2 Samuel. When Solomon was born his name was Solomon according to David, but he was Jedidiah according to Jehovah (2 Samuel 12:24, 25), Jehovah loved him -- He loved him as a babe. The suggestion is that it is not simply the babe state in Christ, but our apprehension of Him in that He is lovable even in the small apprehension we may have of Him. There could not be much there in a babe; the name Jedidiah was, therefore, prophetic -- that is, the full

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thought of it was not there yet. It was sent by the hand of Nathan; it was a prophetic matter, but the time would come when that would show itself, that Jehovah loved him. Now we have arrived at a time when he is a young man, and David says, "Young and tender", giving the thought of freshness, a period of freshness when we come into the apprehension of Christ in a fuller sense than in the babe state.

Rem. There seems to be a double thought in "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight". He is the beloved Son, then God finds His delight in that One.

J.T. Yes. The point with Peter here is, not that He is to be heard (that is found in the gospels) but it is what God finds in Him; and what a radiation there was, so to speak, what a sense you would have of the Father's affection and how the Lord answered to it!

Ques. He gives Matthew's account, omitting the words, "Hear him". Does that go with your thought of sonship?

J.T. Yes, I think Matthew deals with it in relation to the assembly more than the others, that is what he has in mind. So that in Matthew 17 the thought of sonship is developed after they come down from the mount; Peter had to be instructed in it.

P.H. It says the voice was "uttered to him by the excellent glory", not merely a voice from the glory, but a voice uttered to him by the glory.

J.T. Quite. Very much like the idea of the greatness in Hebrews and the fulness in Colossians. It is a way Scripture has of presenting Deity -- Fulness, Greatness, Excellent Glory; the glory itself is personified, as you might say.

P.H. Do you carry that thought into the suggestion in 1 Chronicles? Is it all covered by a sense of the glory of that relationship?

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J.T. I think that is what runs through all these chapters, the richness of thought, and Israel would have opportunity to see David and Solomon on the throne, as it were, together. In the last chapter Solomon is made king a second time, and he sits on the throne of Jehovah, as if the idea is to bring to our view the relations of father and son, that we might become conversant with them, and understand what the spirit of sonship is.

Ques. Is the Levite to serve in the joy and light and intelligence of sonship?

J.T. That is the idea, I think. It says, "David was old and full of days, and he made Solomon his son king over Israel" -- he is still alive himself.

Ques. What sphere of service would the Levite cover?

J.T. Well, you have the things here that they had to do with (read verses 28 - 32). That is a wonderful list applied spiritually, as set over against the carrying side that David refers to -- that had ceased.

Ques. In what sense would you say that for us the carrying side has ceased?

J.T. I think when we are together in assembly; it has not ceased otherwise, for Numbers applies today also.

Ques. Does the carrying side obtain in the reading meetings and in ministry?

J.T. Well, it certainly would if you have any responsibility in it.

Ques. Would it suggest being more occupied with the service of sonship rather than with what is seen outside the tabernacle?

J.T. Yes, it is what is inside, I think, where the young brothers learn to take part in these holy things, and are gradually set free from legal restraint. The governing principle ought to be love in the assembly,

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not legal fear. Most of us are hindered by legal fear, afraid to stand up and afraid to speak. Others, of course, may be forward -- that is not of any value. But the Spirit of adoption releases us from legal restraint or limitations, and we come to be governed by our own minds in what we say and by our own spirits. "I will sing with the spirit, but I will sing also with the understanding" (1 Corinthians 14:15). We learn to be brief, but we learn to be free in what we say; we are sure of our ground, and we are governed by our minds and by our spirits.

F.S.M. You would distinguish between the work of God, and the work of the service of God?

J.T. You mean the work would be the external side?

F.S.M. Yes. I wanted help on it, for "the work" is an expression that occurs throughout Scripture.

J.T. Yes, and there are two words in the Old Testament: one is the ordinary one for worship, referring to your affections towards the Person you worship; the other involves service, but service Godward, that is, as it were, the public carrying on of the service of God as may be seen at any time when we are together in assembly. And I think that is what is in mind here, that the service of God goes on, as Paul says, "We are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God" (Philippians 3:3). We carry on the service of God by the Spirit, and I believe the young amongst us, and perhaps some who are older, are restrained by legal fear and the state we may get into through carelessness. And what the knowledge of sonship does is to set us free so that we take part in the assembly by intelligence, by our minds which ought to regulate us, in brevity and conciseness, but nevertheless your spirit is in it. "I will sing with the spirit", that is, your own spirit. You are regulated by the mind, but you are feeling, all the same, and

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people are moved by what you say, because you have feeling.

F.S.M. Would the work of the service include many activities that are contributory to the major service of God? Tomorrow, for instance, many services will be rendered of a levitical character which are contributory to the assembly, and the young Levites will be encouraged to have their part in it.

J.T. Very good. So there is nothing common, all is working to one end, and we have more and more to do with what is spiritual as we come together. Preliminary matters have to be attended to, but it is all to the end of what is spiritual.

Ques. Is that why the sons of Aaron are mentioned so often in Leviticus in regard to the service of God?

J.T. You might regard the "sons of Aaron" as a technical reference to spirituality amongst us; the anointed priest is more what is official.

Ques. Would that be the confirmation of the thought that God will have sons, for Jehovah, addressing Moses, says, "Speak unto Aaron and to his sons"? Is sonship in view there all along?

J.T. Sonship in that sense as involving spirituality, for Galatians is the great general thought of sonship applied to us. "Because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts" (Galatians 4:6), and "So thou art no longer bondman, but son". But without Colossians and Ephesians and those other richer epistles, much richer in thought than Galatians, you will not have the idea of the sons of Aaron. You want spirituality, you want substance, and that is what there is in the assembly, there is not only intelligence, but substance in spirituality.

Ques. Do we have to understand that it was David who made Solomon king, not the people?

J.T. Yes, it is David here. Later the people say, 'We are so well-pleased, we will make you king a second time:' that is to show how the thought

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grows; Christ grows on you, so that the idea becomes more and more delightful as you fall in with it and take part in it.

Ques. The place of the sons of Levi was by the side of the sons of Aaron; would that give dignity and character to the service?

J.T. Yes, it shows the lesser is linked with the greater. The sons of Aaron are the spiritual; these young men are alongside; they are drawn into the thing. We are drawn into what is in the assembly. It was richly inaugurated as the Spirit of God came down; all adding since is that we come into that -- but what do you come into? See how great it is. But you are spiritual yourself, however little, and, coming into it, you become greater and greater.

Ques. Would that be seen with Paul and -- a son with a father?

J.T. Quite so. See how great was Timothy's privilege of being taken on by a man like Paul. If you heard Paul pray or speak to God, you would never forget it; and you would gradually get into that thought. That is how we get into things.

Ques. Is there any sense in which the two thoughts, the truth setting us free, and the Son setting us free, would correspond with these two?

J.T. That is very good. The idea of sonship is effective. Peter presents it as an objective thing; so does John, "We have contemplated his glory", he says, and so does Paul: it is an objective thing, and the result is you are affected in your heart. You get a glimpse of the Son and of the radiation of affection between the Father and the Son -- you cannot but be attracted by that. The next thing is, how to regulate myself in relation to that, and I believe 1 Corinthians helps there as to how you are in the assembly; how you use your mind, and how the mind of the Christian is the dominating thing. The spirit is the feelings.

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They might say, 'You might go on and on, because there is so much to say, so much to affect you', but the mind says, 'Do not say too much'.

W.C. Would you say the last words of David refer to the Supper itself, as it bears on the service Godward?

J.T. You mean applying it to the Lord? Yes, the last words of David may be worked out in John 14 - 17. What a regulation in principle there is there, and how the Lord would increase the service! He speaks of "the men whom thou hast given me", and the prayer embraces all that should believe on Him through them. What a number He had in mind! So that we have the two thoughts in Scripture; the many brethren and the many sons; many, in God's mind means many.

Rem. The line you are speaking of would encourage all to participate in the work of the Lord and the service of the saints, in however small a measure, and it leads on from that -- "and for all manner of measure and size" as if to indicate that there is room for all in the service.

J.T. Yes, "all measure of capacity and size". Well, an aged brother, of course, ought to have both capacity and size. God is the God of measure, according to Corinthians, and the Levite here is to be versed in that so that he knows what is needed. When Paul was taken there must have been a great sense of loss in the spiritual, a great void. What they must have felt at Philippi when they heard the apostle was gone! What a capacity there was with him! He said to Timothy, 'Bring the cloak' (2 Timothy 4:13); that would be his capacity, his size, his measure. Timothy would be reminded of what was needed, and, being a humble brother, he would say to himself, 'I can never fill that'. But the more you accept your measure, the more the Lord helps you.

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F.S.M. As to the "nail in a sure place", it says, "They shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all the small vessels, as well the vessels of cups, as all the vessels of flagons" (Isaiah 22:24). Does not that encourage us that in the work of the service all the vessels, whether small or great, can hang on Him and prove the sufficiency of Christ in the assembly?

J.T. A very good thought. So that, if the older brothers are removed, as they are constantly being, we ought to feel it. Young men have to think of measure -- what was our brother's measure? Well, that has to be met, for the void is there. There is a continual moving up, so to speak.

Ques. After the account of the transfiguration in Matthew, the Lord says, "Then are the sons free". Is that the idea of liberty?

J.T. That is the word, exactly -- the sons are free. Peter was almost as remiss down below as above. You would think he would have known better than to tell the people the Lord was subject to tribute. Having heard the voice from the excellent glory should have settled the matter for ever in Peter's mind as to who the Lord was. Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus "who he was". Well, no one had a greater opportunity of seeing who He was than Peter on the mount, yet when he came down he did not carry it out. "Does your teacher not pay the didrachmas?" they say. Well, the Lord anticipated what was in his mind; He said, "the kings of the earth, from whom do they receive custom or tribute? from their own sons or from strangers? Peter says to him, from strangers". And the Lord said, as it were, 'You know that, yet you do not understand what you saw on the mountain. You know the sons are free'. If you heard that voice from above, you would know the sons are free -- wonderful thought! Then He tells him how to meet the obligation, to remove from his mind any

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legal thought. He says, "Go to the sea and cast a hook, and take the first fish that comes up, and when thou hast opened its mouth thou wilt find a stater; take that and give it to them for me and thee". That is, it is a legal matter in your mind, but you can be free; be sure that you remain in liberty.

Ques. Would you get that in John 8:35, "The bondman abides not in the house for ever: the Son abides for ever"?

J.T. It is the same thought. There are the two thoughts: our brother alluded to the truth setting you free, that is, you are set free in detail by the truth; but the Son deals with your heart, the heart would be free in His presence; the nearer you get to the Lord the freer you are, and He would have it so, because He would relieve Peter of the legal anxiety he had, telling him to settle the matter -- "Give it to them for me and thee". Be free.

Rem. The intention being that the sons should be free. It is a great matter for each brother and sister to realise he or she is one of the sons.

J.T. Galatians gives you the light of that. Colossians, Ephesians and Philippians and other scriptures bring out the richness of what you are brought into. In this chapter you are greatly impressed with that. Then David calls for his son, that is, he brings him into that.

Ques. What is the material the Lord builds into His assembly?

J.T. That is what we are speaking of. David speaks here of what material he had provided before his death. Solomon is to put it into the assembly. In chapter 22 you will be impressed with the immensity of the material there was; then he calls Solomon into it in this chapter, and puts Solomon on the throne. Now He will control you. You cannot say, 'It is optional whether I come to that meeting or not;' or 'It is optional whether I read the ministry

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or not;' you cannot say that, because Solomon is on the throne.

Rem. It is a realm of love, but there is authority behind it.

J.T. Yes. So the book of Proverbs is the thing opened up in detail; the son is constantly addressed: "my son".

Ques. Speaking of the state, it is encouraging that Peter says they were with Him on the holy mount. Is not the assembly really the environment in which we learn how to speak and how to do things?

J.T. It is so here; the young Levites are all serving by the side of the priests. There is spiritual wealth and intelligence in the assembly and we are brought into it.

P.H. The end of John 17 would enlarge on this, the love of the Father for the Son, as the Lord says, being "in them and I in them;" would you connect those two thoughts with what you had in mind?

J.T. I should. Chapter 13 is the initial thought. One said, "Thou shalt never wash my feet" -- well, he is shutting himself out; will shuts you out of the whole matter. The Lord said, "Unless I wash thee, thou hast not part with me", not, 'If you are not washed' -- but 'If I do not do it;' meaning it is such an important matter. It is not a question, as elsewhere, of your looking after yourself; the thing is, the Lord must do it, and, if you do not let Him do it you have no part in it. Then the last part of chapter 17 brings us into the fulness of it, the same love with which the Father loves the Son is in us, the most exalted kind of love. We are in no way behind now, we are at the top, and I suppose that will be our place eternally; there will be no discrepancy there at all, no fear there at all, we are up at the top in every way. We begin with the love of Christ to the assembly, then the covenant love of God, and then the Father's love to the Son.

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Ques. What would you say about "I in them"?

J.T. I think the Lord is there complacently; He is with us as with the Father; He finds the same kind of love.

P.H. It is the Son who says "I", like Solomon.

J.T. I think He is as restful in the assembly from that point of view as He is with the Father; it is the same thought of love, and I think that gives you eternity really -- there is no discrepancy at all.

Ques. Is the washing a process? I was thinking that on the mount Peter had come to the thing himself in a living way.

J.T. Yes, he would give a good idea of the washing in John 13. He tells us about what happened on the mount, but not about his discrepancy. How fully he would understand the idea of the washing when he does that in his second epistle.

W.J.H. In the liberty of all this now known in Peter's soul, what an excellent Levite he was, right to the day of his death, and how helpful to the younger brethren. Mark came into his ministry.

J.T. How little Peter speaks about sonship, and I think the meaning of that must be, not that he did not know sonship, but that sonship properly belonged to Paul. It is the truth that goes with the ministry of the assembly, and it is remarkable that Peter and the other Jewish apostles just leave it; knowing it, as Peter did, yet they could keep such a treasure in their hearts and wait with true levitical skill for the moment that was suited for that ministry. I think it brings out the perfect unison in the apostolic service that they knew that truth belonged to a more exalted ministry and they waited for that. You may be sure that in their own individual relations with God they enjoyed it. Do you not think so?

W.J.H. I thought that. The reference in Peter to "such a voice" seems to be Peter's apprehension of what was there; not His voice, or His words, but

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something that lay behind both, as a father would intone his voice to his son.

J.T. Yes. And it would look as though he fully drank in the thought. He refers to what was said at the Jordan, and repeated on the mount. What the voice said was what Peter carried in his soul. What we were noticing this morning is, I think, apropos here; we reach a point where we are with Him: we begin with His being with us, but we reach a point where we are with Him.

Rem. In Colossians we are said to be "buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with him through faith", then we are "quickened together with him".

J.T. It is a very precious word. Then if we have spiritual power and intelligence enough, we rest on that point, for there is a definite change. He is with us, according to His own words, "I am coming to you", and "I will not leave you orphans". He comes to us, but when we are with Him, we are on new ground: it is no longer a question of Christ personally being the object of our address, but the Father, for that is the trend of John 14 - 17, the Father.

Ques. Are you linking these thoughts with the word in Chronicles in relation to the service of the assembly in its most exalted character?

J.T. I think that is the thought we have before us, for it is a question of leading, the effect of seeing sonship objectively expressed before our eyes, for there Solomon was on the throne in chapter 22. David seems to love to say, "Solomon my son". He had said it about Absalom most distressfully -- "Absalom, my son, my son", but not so here; this is, "Solomon, my son", a type of Christ; chapter 22 is full of that. Well, the people were all there and the king was there before their eyes, typically set before our eyes. In the gospels and in the epistles and at the mount of transfiguration it is supremely so; and the

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intent was that the three disciples should bring that down to the assembly. So Peter emphatically says, "We were with him". Now the thing is to be brought into all that wealth and to grow in it.

F.S.M. Does chapter 29 show that? Because Solomon is on the throne, David is able to gather up the affections of all the people and lead them to God. When Solomon is on the throne headship is introduced and the whole service of worship is seen effectively.

J.T. Yes. It says in verse 20, "David said to all the congregation, Bless now Jehovah your God. And all the congregation blessed Jehovah the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads and did homage to Jehovah and the king. And they sacrificed sacrifices to Jehovah ... And they ate and drank before Jehovah on that day with great joy. And they made Solomon the son of David king the second time, and anointed him to Jehovah to be prince, and Zadok to be priest". We have a wonderful state of things now fixed; they are committed to Solomon morally now as proving what sonship was.

Rem. These young Levites had a lot of work to do alongside the sons of Aaron.

J.T. Well, I think the meaning is that you become gradually spiritual as having to do with these things. Their place was by the side of the sons of Aaron for the service of the house of Jehovah, "Over the courts, and over the chambers, and over the purifying of all holy things, and for the work of the service of the house of God; and for the loaves to be set in rows, and for the fine flour for the oblation, and for the unleavened cakes, and for what is baked in the pan, and for that which is saturated with oil, and for all measure of capacity and size; and to stand every morning to thank and praise Jehovah, and likewise at even" (1 Chronicles 23:28 - 30). Anyone can see that occupation in this way, in an antitypical sense, will lead us gradually

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more and more into spirituality and occupation with the most precious things.

Rem. This is not exactly labour connected with the tabernacle system, but in relation to sonship.

J.T. That is it; I think particularly in relation to the assembly, a scene of rest.

Rem. So the "thirty years old" will remain in connection with the carrying side, but this refers to what is spiritual.

J.T. Yes, it does, to what any young brother can have part in. How delightful it is to hear a young man speak for the first time in the assembly! It brings great freshness; we love to hear them.

Ques. What about the doorkeepers?

J.T. The doorkeepers are to keep out what is extraneous, as in John 20, to keep out what is outside. There is much legal feeling amongst us; it just means that in your heart you keep out the Jewish element. It is "the doors" in John 20. But every christian has a door. We are to be delivered from the religious ideas around us.

W.W. Is that how you become trustworthy? In reference to the paradise of God, the cherubim are guarding the position which the Lord had brought about, which Adam failed to guard.

J.T. Yes, they were vigilant to keep out mischievous elements. It is not seen much that all that is of God here is in the saints; we do not find anything in the meeting-room, everything is in the saints. It is what God effects, and everything that goes on in the assembly is a question of what is in it. So the number of doorkeepers is exactly the same as the number of singers here, and they would keep the singing pure.

Ques. Would the service in connection with the rest be seen in verse 25 where it says, "Jehovah the God of Israel has given rest to his people"?

J.T. Yes, David, I think, expresses typically there the thought of the saints as convened in the

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assembly: God has given us rest; now there is opportunity to carry on all this. There is room for young brothers and sisters as to the spiritual side. In fact, in Psalm 89:19, sonship is applied to David himself as a type of Christ, and it says, "I have exalted one chosen out of the people" -- it was literally so with David. He was a delightful young man. God dwells on his very appearance to indicate what is in His mind.

Ques. Do you think that normally there should be no silent brothers?

J.T. It is a distressing thing if there is a silent brother. The Lord was praying in a certain place and a disciple said, "Lord, teach us to pray", and the Lord immediately taught them. Then He proceeds to tell them about asking, and He goes on to the supreme thought of the Spirit, "How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven" (for that is the idea -- it is the heavenly brought down here) "give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13) -- that is the acme of the thought. Then it says, "He was casting out a demon, and it was dumb". He was doing it -- it is not a completed action. Then it says, "The dumb man spoke". That is what is needed. Very often among us, especially in small meetings, you find there are persons who never open their mouths, and I believe the devil gets a very great advantage thus in our prayer meetings; it is distressing. I think that is what the Lord has in mind; He is casting out dumb demons, and, as soon as they are out, the men begin to speak.

Ques. Would the position Samuel had illustrate the thing for the young -- lying in the temple where the ark was, then called into the service?

J.T. Quite so. He lay in the temple first -- it is not good to lie there. There was never any thought primarily of any beds or sitting places in the temple; it is a question of being on the alert. I shall not be

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dumb if I am on the alert. It is really a mark of a low state of things that in the early chapters of 1 Samuel it is said that he lay in the temple. It is also said of Eli that he sat upon the seat by the doorpost of the temple, and, finally, that he was sitting upon the seat by the wayside (1 Samuel 4:13), whence he fell backward and died. Apparently he was a very fat man. But God spoke to Samuel in spite of all those conditions. He had to speak several times, but that shows the persistency of God to get us.

Rem. The culmination of the Songs of degrees is that there are those who stand by night.

J.T. Yes, that is the culmination there -- those that stand by night in the house of Jehovah. The Lord was standing as He appeared in the midst too; it is a time of vigilance, of readiness for service. The book of Proverbs is like the opening up of the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love.

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THE WAY OF POWER IN MINISTRY

Mark 16:1 - 20; Luke 24:45 - 52

J.T. What is in view to be considered is the ministry; that is, the ministry in the sense of public testimony in preaching and teaching. It was thought that Mark and Luke, considered together in these closing chapters, furnish the instruction that is needed for this feature of the Lord's service; Mark stresses the tendency to be unbelieving, even though we may be actively engaged in the service. The great servant, that is Paul, said, "I have believed, therefore have I spoken" (2 Corinthians 4:13). It is thought that a consideration of this chapter in Mark's gospel today might help us, as we are all committed, more or less, to this public service, even the sisters, for they come in for consideration first in the chapter. Then those that had been, as it says, with the Lord (verse 10), alluding back to chapter 3 where it is said that He went up into a mountain and called whom He would that they might be with Him and that He might send them forth to preach, then (verse 14) those that were known by number, the eleven. The chapter deals with things under these heads; the sisters; those that were supposed to have been with the Lord in view of having part in the service; and then those that are known by number, an official number. The chapter is intended to search us as to faith, whether we are believing in what we are presenting in testimony.

A.S.L. That the service should be carried on continually in the exercise of living faith. There is a danger perhaps with us of dropping into the habit of speaking of these precious things, and not being in the living reality of them at the time.

J.T. Quite so. And first of all, to bring in the sisters. Generally, in the endings of the gospels, the

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sisters shine well, but in this chapter they do not shine, although they are early at the sepulchre. They ran away, we are told, with "excessive amazement" and "they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid". This is a challenge, I think, as to our sisters; they are not called upon to preach or to teach, but they certainly can speak to individuals -- here it says "they said nothing to any one". Of what value was all their education, the education they had had in view of public testimony? -- they said nothing to anyone.

A.S.L. And is the reason for their silence a lesson for us -- they were afraid?

J.T. That is very often why we do not speak.

W.S.S. Would the word 'embalm' as it appears in verse 1 in the New Translation, have a bearing on what you are saying?

J.T. It would indicate that they had no expectation of the immediate resurrection of Christ. He had plainly stated He would be raised the third day; there was no need for embalming.

A.S.L. I suppose resurrection is entirely beyond the human mind and capacity, for the Lord constantly told them He would rise the third day.

J.T. I think the resurrection is the greatest test to faith.

-- .S. Would love have dispelled the fear?

J.T. Yes, but love may exist without much courage. The word to Joshua is, "Be strong and very courageous" (Joshua 1:7).

A.S.L. You said you believed resurrection was the greatest test of our faith.

J.T. Well, I find it that way. I think it is well for us all to face the question of death. As our bodies are formally said to be mortal, it is just as well to accept that word and all it means, and ask ourselves whether we really believe in the resurrection or whether it is a mere creed. Martha said, "I know

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that he will rise again in the resurrection in the last day" (John 11:24). That was something, but I believe it was just a creed; I doubt if it was faith in her soul. The repetition of a creed, or even the quotation of Scripture, is not faith. The Lord said, "I am the resurrection and the life".

W.J.H. The sisters seem to have better ability to apprehend the coming in of the Lord than His resurrection -- Mary and Elizabeth and Anna all speak at the beginning of Luke.

J.T. There seems to be no doubt as to that. It is very beautiful at the beginning of Luke to see how ready they were to accept the fact of the incarnation. Resurrection is the great test of faith, and that is what this chapter brings to our attention. The women did not believe, neither did those that had been with the Lord, having heard all He had said, which would imply that they were conversant with all He had said in the different years, as we may say, of His ministry. Think of how often the Lord had referred to it, and yet it says of them, they disbelieved Mary.

A.S.L. Probably all of us here this afternoon have been born and bred, as it were, in the truth of resurrection as a creed. So I think what you are saying is of vital practical moment for each one of us, as to whether in the faith of our souls we have got hold of resurrection.

J.T. Quite so, whether we have arrived, as Paul said, at "the resurrection from among the dead". Martha spoke of the last day, but it is a question of resurrection from among the dead, and of course that implies Christ's resurrection. "The first-fruits, Christ; then those that are the Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:23). Personally, I find it the greatest test, and I have no doubt it is so with most of us.

A.S.L. I think it is helpful to see that, that our mental faculty is incapable of grasping resurrection.

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So on Mars' hill, when Paul spoke of the resurrection, some mocked; they were the ablest men, but the ablest men cannot grasp the truth of resurrection.

S.B. Why are we so slow to believe in the resurrection?

J.T. There is no visible thing to attest it; we have to accept it on the testimony of others. The apostles were to be witnesses of it, although indeed Paul points out that the vegetable in the field is a witness to it; in truth it is, but our minds do not accept that. As was just remarked the Greek idea was, "He seems to be an announcer of foreign demons, because he announced the glad tidings of Jesus, and the resurrection" (Acts 17:18), as if the resurrection was a person, a god, so little did they have the idea of it. So it says they came to embalm Him, or anoint Him. "And very early on the first day of the week they come to the sepulchre, the sun having risen. And they said to one another, Who shall roll us away the stone out of the door of the sepulchre? And when they looked, they see that the stone has been rolled away". Then it adds, "for it was very great". That certainly is one stone rolled away from the great truth of resurrection, and it was very great, and yet it does not seem to have had the force it should have had with them. Those who believe in it are as sure of it as possible, yet they find out, alas, that what they are saying has very little effect. The matter is very great and it has not the effect that was intended.

-- .W. Is the thought to raise us from what is merely doctrinal to what is spiritual?

J.T. Yes, the idea is fact; the resurrection is a fact; it is not an anticipation now, it is a fact.

E.G.G. Must we have the sentence of death in ourselves to reach this, as Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1:9; is that the thought?

J.T. I think that is good. I have no doubt he had a greater grasp of the resurrection after that than

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he had when he wrote chapter 15 of the first letter. He had been brought down into death. There can be no doubt that God helps us by rolling in circumstances upon us, especially bereavement, so that faith becomes operative.

S.V. Is the thought of quickening in Colossians connected with faith in the operation of God?

J.T. Faith in the operation of God is an objective thought, that is, the working of God who raised Christ, but then that is faith as to myself. We are raised "through faith of the working of God" who raised Christ, but then it goes on to say, we are "quickened together with him" (Colossians 2:12, 13). That is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of actuality now, that we are actually quickened, that is to say, those who are. He is speaking to the Colossians, of course. But I was thinking as to Paul going down to the gates of death, nothing helps us more than to be taxed spiritually, because we find we have more than we thought we had. God knows how to tax us and to draw forth what is there, and the exigencies of our circumstances draw out what is there, so we say, 'It is good that happened;' it was dreadful at the time, but the tax draws out what was latently there.

O.S. So Paul says, "Having the same spirit of faith" -- is that what he found he had as he went through those dreadful experiences?

J.T. The spirit of faith -- that is the idea; everyone really born again has it, there is something there that can be drawn out, and the discipline of God is to draw it out. These women were taxed by what happened here, they went away full of amazement, but, nevertheless, no doubt something went on in their souls.

A.S.L. Abraham is spoken of as knowing God as the One who raises the dead. But then, are there not the two things, acceptance of the great fact of resurrection, and then the learning of it practically in

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being brought down to the gates of death so that you might trust in the God that raises the dead as One you have learnt to know?

S.H.S. Would the experience of Thomas help us in regard of this, when he said, "My Lord and my God"?

J.T. Quite so, he had to come to it. He was materialistic, "Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and put my finger into the mark of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe" (John 20:25). That is a very bad state to be in. The Lord knew, however, that what we have been speaking of was there in the bottom of his heart, for he was no infidel really; but the principle of taxing came in, he had to be assured by actual facts, not merely testimony. But here we have the women; they go into the sepulchre; one stone was rolled away, a very important difficulty was overcome, and they go into the sepulchre, and they see a young man, it says, "sitting on the right, clothed in a white robe".

W.S.S. What is the import of the young man?

J.T. Their intelligence would direct their minds to what God is aiming at in the education. We say we shall be raised when the Lord comes for us, and occupy ourselves much with that, which is all future, but this young man has reference to what is to come in in the meantime, what is to fill out the time.

W.J.H. Arriving at the resurrection would give those three features of youthfulness and power and purity.

J.T. Yes, it is a question of what is to be produced in one's apprehension and in oneself, what one is in the meantime. There are many who will occupy themselves with books that are written on the coming of the Lord by those who have never had an idea of what it means now. The time is not merely to be filled out with mere waiting -- this young man is the idea.

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W.S.S. You would think the first impression would be an empty tomb, instead it is this young man.

J.T. That is it, the scene is to be filled with this thought.

A.R. And he is one who knows.

J.T. Yes. He is sitting in the right position too: he is sitting on the right, clothed in a white robe. His position is right; he is where power is, and his surroundings, his circumstances, his garments, are pure. This young man has to be brought forward. If people are talking about the coming of the Lord and their being raised and caught up, what about the interval?

W.S.S. You mean what is to be seen in a concrete form?

J.T. Yes, what is to be in us as here waiting for the coming of the Lord.

W.C. "God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion. Be not therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord" (2 Timothy 1:7, 8). Would that be the clothing of the young man, so to speak?

J.T. That is right. Timothy represents him; Timothy is to fill out the time.

S.B. Did Hezekiah come to this when he spoke of the experience he had been through and said, "The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day", and spoke about the days of his life?

J.T. Yes, the whole fifteen years is to be filled out with that. What a fine fifteen years of his life as filled out with that, "As I do this day". (Isaiah 38:19).

L.D.M. Does this young man suggest a history with God, too?

J.T. Yes, he suggests, I think, the full development in a christian. This chapter is intended to be a chapter for men, not old men. Throughout the scripture the idea is young men, young persons, for the testimony; not that the old men are disregarded,

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of course, they have their place -- they have been young, as one old man said, "I have been young, and now am old".

C.B. Paul, in writing to Timothy, says, "Take Mark, and bring him with thyself, for he is serviceable to me for ministry" (2 Timothy 4:11).

J.T. Yes, he had washed his robe and made it white.

-- .S. In verse 19 it says Christ sat at the right hand of God; here it is the young man sitting on the right.

J.T. We shall come to that. This young man is where power is; that is, he is wherever he can get help in view of his testimony. If he is going to preach he has to learn, and he wants to know the secret of power.

O.S. It says of Joshua, a young man, that he departed not out of the tabernacle; would that answer to this? The presence of Jehovah was there in a crisis, is that the idea?

J.T. Yes, it is there. It is a thought that runs through Scripture, beginning perhaps with Joseph who is the great model for all young christians, an example of purity and virtue; and then Joshua.

G.A. Does this young man represent the moral element which would fill out in a living way the Lord's direction, "Occupy till I come"?

J.T. I think so. If you are waiting for the Lord, you are not behind all those people who are so full of prophecy, but you are concerned for the moment about this young man, as to what is here. Well, what occupies christendom publicly is the cathedral, and the church at the corner and the missionaries, and all that; but we want this young man, that is, purity and intelligence, and maturity too; he is equal to work and he knows the secret of power.

-- .L. So that availability is a great point.

J.T. This young man is here -- that is the idea.

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The Lord had been in the sepulchre, but it is filled with the idea of this young man. Am I able to take in the thought of this young man, and what is said about him? If so, I shall be useful in the service; I shall know the secret of power, I shall be marked by purity, and my service will be effective.

W.S.S. A contrast to what would be in the human mind, which would be an empty tomb, if they saw it. What the young man represents is very striking.

J.T. It is. I think it is well to bear in mind that it is not exactly an empty tomb, but this man is in the tomb; so that the idea is your mind is full of this thought; it is the mind of heaven in the interval -- Christ the First-fruits. He has gone out of the grave, but the thought is to fill up the interval.

W.J.H. I suppose the idea of getting old does not enter into this at all?

J.T. When you come to resurrection, there is no idea of ever getting old; the Lord Himself, as Man, is said to have the dew of His youth, though exalted. It is a question of constant freshness, whether in the old or the young, and knowing the secret of power.

A.R. Is the idea that you begin to preach in relation to another world?

J.T. I think so, and to bring in the idea here, where the grave of Christ is, that this is the thing that fills out the position. We are where He was, awaiting His return, and the application of the power of resurrection; but this fills out the interval, and the Spirit of God gives us a picture of the women here, not to record what was to their discredit at all, but as a rebuke to the unbelief that we are all conscious of in ourselves. For examples of unbelief in Christians are not recorded because they are singular, but because they are representative of every one of us, so that we are to search ourselves as to whether we are believing in our service.

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A.S.L. "How is it that ye have no faith?" the Lord had to say.

W.N. Why is the resurrection stressed and not ascension?

J.T. Ascension is fully brought out at the end, when all these matters as regards our state are settled; for that is the point throughout this chapter, the question of the state of the believer. When that is settled, there is the Lord, as it were, in perfect composure and restfulness setting Himself down up there and watching over everything down here. There is a grandeur in the position at the end of the chapter. The commotion, the uncertainty, the darkness are in us; all up there is in perfect composure. It says He 'sat', as if to say, 'I have taken up this position;' all enemies put down. He goes up quietly, as it were, and sits there, and it says, "They, going forth, preached everywhere". How perfectly effective His instruction to them here was -- they went forth, it says, preaching everywhere. God has given us a good deal of light, and I am sure we ought to be thankful, but the point is now as to the witness to it. Think of the terrible darkness that is abroad in christendom, the frightful heathendom in this land and in America, and other places, no Bible, no religious instruction at all in the homes of a great number of families in the large cities.

A.S.L. May we not even say it is worse than the darkness of heathendom, and that it is apostasy -- so there is no remedy?

J.T. Well, there is very little preaching; there is very little carrying out of the word to the people in large cities in general.

T.W. Are you referring now to preaching everywhere?

J.T. Yes, that is the idea, that the Lord is up there, He has complete right of way -- He sat on the right hand of God, that is the place of power. The

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young man had that idea. The Lord is there, and after this instruction in the chapter and the rebuke, they going forth, preached everywhere. Now, mark you, the commission is, "Go into all the world;" you say, 'That is to preach to all the world'. That is not the point; the point is you are going to serve where the opposition is. The world hates you, the Lord says; the point is, you go in spite of the opposition and preach the gospel to the whole creation, that is, we view persons we preach to as the creation and we take them up abstractly, not as influenced by the devil, but abstractly.

-- .S. The young man said, "Ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, the crucified one. He is risen, he is not here". Was that the theme of the preaching?

J.T. He is not here, but the young man is here -- that is you; we are here in this character.

-- .S. And "ye seek Jesus" -- all the creation seeks Jesus and waits for Him.

J.T. The commission is, "Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation".

Ques. You call attention to creation; is the thought that you have a link with God in your mind rather than the enemy?

J.T. That is right, that is the greatness of the preaching. God has His rights as Creator. We are speaking abstractly to persons who stand in relation to God; that is the ground Paul takes at Mars' hill.

H.P.W. You were speaking of the virtual heathendom that prevails in large cities and elsewhere. Do you think this still holds that the preaching should go on everywhere?

J.T. I think it does. There are other things that modify it, of course, but we cannot admit for a moment that any principle is abrogated; it must have some application.

A.S.L. But there would be a vast difference in heralding today; if we go forth heralding we are

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doing so amongst those who are, in large measure, apostate.

J.T. That makes the soil harder, of course, but they are still God's creatures.

W.C. Would the reference to the sun having risen bear upon it, as to the rights of Christ in regard of all? I think it is only mentioned thus by Mark in that form.

J.T. It would allude to that thought coming into evidence as noting the providential favourableness. As we were remarking at the beginning of our meeting, the idea is today that the world is in reconciliation. That is not the world as it lies in the wicked one, but as ordered of God under the gentile monarchies. The creation goes back to Genesis, but the world in Romans refers, I think, to the gentile monarchies, Daniel giving the key to the position in view of the gospel. The monarchies are intended to be favourable, to give a certain advantage, and all creatorial things, such as the sun and the earth, and seed-time and harvest, all these things are favourable to the gospel -- the Lord making things favourable, and that is what the preacher has to look for. Whatever is favourable is to be acknowledged with thanksgiving.

J.B. Would Paul have that in his mind in saying, "In whom we live and move and have our being"?

J.T. I think that is the idea. The speech at Mars' hill, and also the speech in Acts 14, deal with what we are speaking of now in regard to the gospel, so that the servant is to take account of everything that is in his favour, wherever it is. We are told that in the last days "difficult times shall be there" (2 Timothy 3:1), but our business is to hold to the principle. When the Jews surrounded the Lord, He could not go on, but it says, He went away beyond the Jordan where John was baptising at the first (John 10:40): the way is never entirely shut up.

-- .S. Would the idea in my soul of being representative

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of this young man help me to be a living epistle?

J.T. Quite so. Now what is so encouraging in a dark day is that the Lord takes things in hand Himself. As far as we can see here the women were the last resource. The other gospels show the brothers were at fault, and here the women failed. Is all finished? No, the Lord, it says, takes the matter up. It is a remarkable thing that this chapter, from verse 9 to the end, is disputed, as to its inspiration. But it really is needful for a right understanding of the whole gospel. That is, these verses, from verse 9 on, bring out what the Lord is, and, I would say, that is what He was in the Reformation and what He was a hundred years ago. He takes things on Himself, and we can always reckon on that, even in small matters when our way seems to be shut up, the Lord will always find a way. Hence it says, "When he had risen very early, the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary of Magdala, out of whom he had cast seven demons". He had her in His mind, and so it is, when things seem dark there is one He has in His mind that He can use. As far as verse 8 the matter is settled, "Trembling and excessive amazement possessed them, and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid". There is no evangelisation at all, no ministry.

O.S. Would it correspond with the young man who fled naked?

J.T. We have to compare that young man with this young man; that young man corresponds very much with the women here.

P.H. What is the thought in the young man saying, "Go, tell his disciples and Peter, he goes before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him"?

J.T. I think it means that when you want a sermon the Lord is there before for you and for me; that is, if you want to preach, you must get your

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message, and if you want to get a message, you must go for it. Luke would say, 'It will come to you as you stand up', but Matthew and Mark would say, 'The thing must be sought out diligently and it will be acquired, but the Lord will be there'. And Galilee is the place of reproach, but the place of reproach is the place of power. If people were to know how small you feel when you are going to minister, when you are seeking to get something, you would be ashamed to minister, but the Lord knows that, and that is the secret of power, that you have not anything yourself. But the exercise, the moral journey, leads to something; the Lord has gone before. Matthew gives us more of this when they had to meet Him on a mountain.

S.B. Is that what we have been considering -- the Lord had been before them into Macedonia, but the apostle had to wait some time before he found what the Lord had for him, and it was an exercise to him as to why the man was not discovered?

J.T. I think that is right. It must have been a very searching matter for the apostle that there was no man in evidence as he reached Philippi. You are reminded that things are not to be just here, you have to go there. He says, "Go, tell his disciples and Peter, he goes before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him, as he said to you". That is, you ought to have known this, but it is being repeated. This young man is the idea, but the Lord is going somewhere else, meaning that the testimony is to be in His own selected place; His centre of operations is His own selection. Luke does not say that, for he does not stress the exercises of a servant, but Mark does stress the exercises necessary for true service, that the Lord selects the position and that you have to find Him there.

A.S.L. Would you say if you take that journey to Galilee you get the message?

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J.T. That is what I find.

A.S.L. When you think you have got to Galilee, and you do not get the message, does Luke help us there?

J.T. Well, that is a very searching matter. Now when you stand on your feet you will get something.

A.S.L. So you get the answer to Galilee perhaps when you stand on the platform.

J.T. Exactly.

L.D.M. "Go in this thy might".

J.T. You may be asked to preach. You say, 'I cannot do anything; who am I?' The Lord would say to such a one as that, that is, if he really has anything, "Go in this thy might", that is, the Lord would like to magnify what you have if you are making too little of it. We are not to under-estimate what we have; a man ought to know his measure.

S.B. Was that what the Lord did in the dispensing of what the little boy had, the loaves and two fishes?

J.T. Quite. I do not believe the Lord ever takes up anybody who has not got something; He does not use an empty vessel; in some sense the vessel must be filled. The time of service has come -- of course, it is always present, but if there is a certain measure of development in the place and brethren have light and ability, the next thing is, 'Go forward:' "They, going forth, preached everywhere" in the light of the Lord up there, "the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs following upon it". That is, you are to preach the word; the signs will come after it.

W.N. Would the little maid in Kings serve as an example? She knew a prophet in another land in the good of resurrection.

J.T. I think she is a good example for unofficial service. She had no commission; her service is most effective because she was affected inwardly -- she felt the thing. We have a point of exclamation in her

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remark, "Would that my lord were before the prophet that is in Samaria!" (2 kings 5:3). She felt the thing, "then he would cure him of his leprosy" -- she had no doubt about it. What a fine example for young sisters and the like! Here they say nothing to anyone, but that young person said something, and she said it well.

H.C. Would the right side in verse 5 be in accord with the right hand in verse 19?

J.T. Exactly, that is what I was thinking. The right side in verse 5 is, I think, that the servant knows where the secret of power is; the right hand in verse 19 is, of course, God's right hand, and Jesus is there.

W.C. In what way would the signs follow today?

J.T. There ought to be some signs following on the word, not simply what you say on Sunday night, but what comes in on Monday in the prayer meeting. The prayer meeting is a very important meeting. We think little of it because we do not feel we have to get anything special, but it is a very important meeting; it is there where, I think, you get the signs in a simple spiritual way now. Of course, there were, no doubt, literal signs following the apostles' ministry, but confirmatory things come out on the Monday. I believe the devil has a great advantage on the Monday, after the Lord's day, because the saints turn to their ordinary occupations, and forget the enemy knows just how vulnerable we are under these circumstances, and we may get withered up before we come to the prayer meeting.

W.C. The first thing mentioned here is, "cast out demons".

J.T. Yes, it is the enemy's activities. The demon is active on Monday, you may be sure. The devil knows how vulnerable our position is as we go to our businesses and workplaces and the mothers as they look after the children going to school, and so on, and he seeks to rob us of all the blessedness of the Lord's day.

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Ques. Does this question of going into the world link up practically with our offices and employment?

J.T. Quite so, and I think those signs in verses 17 and 18 now refer spiritually to what is furnished to fortify us so that the enemy does not succeed after seasons of blessing. It is not apostles here, but those who believe, so it includes all, the sisters as well as the brothers.

S.H.S. What are the signs you would look for at a prayer meeting?

J.T. These signs are the ones we have to contend with before the prayer meeting, these demons working in our circumstances. "They shall cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues" (not 'other' tongues, but "new" ones), "they shall take up serpents; and if they should drink any deadly thing it shall not injure them; they shall lay hands upon the infirm, and they shall be well". These are the things spiritually, I believe, that keep us on the Monday. These signs are spiritual powers to fortify us -- you notice it is a question of believers -- against the victory being snatched from us when God gives us blessing.

O.S. In speaking of Monday, I suppose you would include every other day of the week.

J.T. I am only illustrating what these women saw at the sepulchre, this young man; we do not want to lose the sense of that. The signs are a question of the spiritual power that is in the prayer meeting.

W.T. Do you mean that the feature of the young man is to be preserved and this comes out definitely in the prayer meeting?

J.T. That is to fill out the week, and therefore the prayer meeting ought to be in spiritual power; that is the next meeting. For the enemy knows what the next meeting is to be and would rob you of what would enter into it and make it prosperous.

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O.S. When Peter came to Mary's house in Acts 12, they were carrying on this meeting, and a very good meeting, yet it was not in faith.

J.T. The Lord would go to the utmost limit to secure us in faith, hence He goes to the length even of appearing in another form. The word here means a real substantial change; the Lord went to the length of doing that in order to secure two whose faces were in the wrong direction, for they were going into the country.

S.B. Would you say a word as to the speaking with new tongues?

J.T. It is the readiness to take on what you know nothing of, I think -- "new" here, not simply 'foreign'.

A.S.L. Is it not true that anybody brought to God, and receiving the Spirit, and having the love of God shed abroad in his heart begins to speak a language he never knew before? "Abba, Father", "Lord-Jesus", "Beloved brethren". People in the world cannot understand new tongues; they do not know the phraseology.

W.C. Is that the same thought as "other tongues" in Acts 2?

J.T. Well, these are 'new' in accord with the position in Mark.

-- .A. Do the "new tongues" suggest the principle of variety in ministry?

J.T. I think so. If a brother is in spiritual power even in prayer, he may use an ordinary word with new force. One has often noticed how words acquire a force they have never had before as they are spoken by a spiritual man, for the Spirit of God knows how to clothe words and give them a force they have never had before.

Now to go on to Luke. "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved the Christ to suffer". Here it is an incumbency on Christ; things must be fulfilled,

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things must happen -- and they did happen. There is no discrepancy between the Old and the New Testaments; as the Scriptures are opened up the things have happened. I think Luke would imbue us with the thought of grace, that God is going on so that things happen we do not expect.

A.S.L. Is not that a word of power we cling to? "Thus it is written" -- "What says the scripture?" If people do not bow to the Scriptures, there is no other authority.

A.R. So that in Luke the commission is to remain in Jerusalem -- what about that?

J.T. The Lord is dealing with what was required. It opens up the whole question of the Lord's position here as Son of man, what a burden He took on, what a burden lay upon Him. Thus it must happen according to the Scriptures, and it has happened. So it says, "That repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations beginning at Jerusalem". Now you are not going to Galilee; there is no need, for it is a question of what is on Christ, it is the burden that is on Christ. Think of the power that is in Christ to bear this weight -- that repentance and remission of sins must be preached to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Now you come into this -- "Ye are witnesses" of it; that is, all the burden is on Christ. It is a view you want to get of what a burden He took on, how infinitely it was fulfilled, and that we are brought into it. That is, you are the persons; not that you are constituted that, but the point is, you know all about it, the burden is on Christ; and even when you stand up to speak, the power comes down.

F.G. Would Paul encourage Timothy to come into this; as he says, "Do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry" (2 Timothy 4:5)?

J.T. Quite so, that is put on him. "It behoved the Christ to suffer, and to rise from among the dead

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the third day; and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things". That is, they were that. They could not escape the obligation; but He is not putting anything on them beyond the simple fact that they knew the thing. He says, 'The burden is Mine', a very touching thing, and, as regards the burden to preach, 'I will see to that'. He says, "Behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you" -- that is the position from the divine side. Mark would stress our side and the need of faith, but the Lord is taking on the burden here.

H.P.W. Is there not an interesting link in Acts 1, where it seems as though the two were put together. "As they were gazing into heaven, as he was going, behold, also two men stood by them in white clothing, who also said, Men of Galilee, why do ye stand looking into heaven? This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven. Then they returned to Jerusalem". You were stressing the necessity of going to Galilee, and I thought perhaps here you had the two sides; what marked them: they are men of Galilee and spoken to as such in Acts 1:11, then they return to Jerusalem, as you are stressing in Luke 24:52.

J.T. Quite so, because the burden is going to be on them now and they move intelligently; they return to the city and go to the upper room. They show they are qualified, but, as you will notice here, and probably realise in your ministry, the burden is on Christ; He takes on the burden from Luke's point of view, and you put it on Him too. The Lord will tax you and He will draw out what is in you, but He loves you to tax Him too.

L.H. The battle is Jehovah's.

J.T. That is the idea.

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L.D.M. Does the scripture in Zechariah 6:12, 13, "He shall grow up from his own place, and he shall build the temple of Jehovah: even he shall build the temple of Jehovah; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne; and the counsel of peace shall be between them both", give the idea you have in mind as to Christ?

J.T. That is the idea here. I think if we all see this it will help us in our ministry. I have no doubt that the sin of christendom, in one sense, is that the whole burden of things is taken out of the Lord's hands and put into other hands. But it is His burden, and He says, "Ye are witnesses" -- He brings us in in that way; He does not even say, 'Go out of Jerusalem', but 'Stay here'.

W.J.H. The King, with all his resources, is the Preacher, "I, the Preacher, was king", (Ecclesiastes 1:12). We need to get the sense more of the unlimited supply of power and wisdom that Solomon has, and that He Himself is the Preacher, even if He uses vessels.

J.T. So it says, "Coming, he has preached the glad tidings of peace to you who were afar off, and the glad tidings of peace to those who were nigh" (Ephesians 2:17); that is what Paul says. Peter says, "Going he preached to the spirits which are in prison, heretofore disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah" (1 Peter 3:19, 20). That is, the whole burden is on Christ, and we can understand it must be that, that we are just brought into it as witnesses, and where we are. Who can say, 'I am not responsible?' I know something, and just where I am here I can say something; and as you do it, He clothes you with power.

Ques. Is that what you look for?

J.T. Quite so, that is what He says, "Behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you", that is, those who know about the things; the power will

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come as you speak of them. Luke would bring everybody into it. Of course, it refers to the eleven, but he puts it in that way, "Ye are witnesses". "Repentance and remission of sins should be preached ... And ye are witnesses" -- the onus is on you, if you know anything, to speak of it. And the Lord says, as it were, 'I will look after the power; it will come down'.

H.C. Is the prayer in Acts 4 an indication of the acceptance of the obligation you have referred to? "And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings, and give to thy bondmen with all boldness to speak thy word, in that thou stretchest out thy hand to heal" (Acts 4:29, 30).

J.T. That is just what it is. You can understand how sensible Peter and John would be, in going back to their own company, of their need of heaven's help.

-- .W. Would Paul be brought into the apprehension of those remarks when the Lord says to him, "Be of good courage, for as thou hast testified the things concerning me at Jerusalem, so thou must bear witness at Rome also" (Acts 23:11).

J.T. You mean the Lord took on the burden. How fully Paul realised that -- "the Lord stood with me, and gave me power" (2 Timothy 4:17). In fact, the more you come to it the more you realise He does everything. Even the scripture you are to speak from, He has provided it and He helps you in it.

W.J.H. A very real test for faith not to take purse or scrip or shoes.

J.T. It is, but it brings you into all this. "Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me" (2 Corinthians 13:3), even as to the speaking, it was Christ.

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CHRIST AS AUTHOR AND LEADER

Acts 3:15, 16; Acts 5:31, 32; Hebrews 12:2; Hebrews 2:10 - 12

I have in mind to speak of one word that is found in each of these passages I have read from the ordinary translation. In the first passage it is translated "Prince" and also in the second passage, but in the third passage it is translated "Author;" and in the fourth "Captain". These English words, Prince, Author and Captain, represent one Greek word of which I want to speak. The Lord Jesus is designated by these words in these four settings. There may be a certain shade of difference in each as to meaning, but the primary and general significance of the word in the original is one who inaugurates, or originates, or begins something, as of himself, and sets it out, so that the idea is exemplified. Then the idea presented in each is to be passed on and is to be absorbed in the intelligences of the saints. The four features in the four passages read, as I hope we shall see by the Lord's help, are to give us a general idea of the great confession called our confession, the great confession or profession in which we have part. First of all, dear brethren, we have the idea of life. Without this and its corresponding effect in result, all our profession must be ineffective, and so we have the great thought set out in Christ that He is the Originator or Author of life, and that He has exemplified it, for christianity is not a matter of doctrine merely; it is a matter of substance. Hence we find that the Lord is alluded to by the apostle John as "That which was from the beginning;" he has in mind the life, what was seen, heard, handled, looked upon, and contemplated. Now this is the first great feature that I would dwell upon, and what is to be remarked at the outset as to life is that we have it in its vegetable form in Genesis 1, and also in its animal form. It is seen in the vegetable

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form and in the fishes, in the birds, in the animals of the field, and finally in man, but in regard of him, we have the breath of life, that is, the breath came in from God. Life in the case of man was the outcome of that, and man became a living soul. Now this works out throughout the Scriptures for us as christians, the breath is the Spirit, "the Spirit is life", we are told, which means life potentially. Christ is the life as worked out, but there is the idea of a Spirit of life so that things should be worked out, the great expanse involved in the word and particularly in the mind of God. Life is a prime thought with God. I have no doubt it is a relative thought, although applied to God Himself, for He is said to be the living God, as that word only has force in view of the presence of death, but still the thing is there. It is a prime thought and the originator of it, the author of it, is Christ. And in order to work it out according to the divine thought, He says to His Father, as about to die, "Father ... glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: as thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given him, he should give them life eternal" (John 17:1, 2). Now that is the position, dear brethren, opened up in our hearing as between the divine Persons as the first element, as you might say, in the Lord's mind in that wonderful chapter. How full that mind was, how rich it was in divine thoughts for man! Chapters 13 to 17 impress us with the fulness and richness, the infinitude of the divine thoughts that were in the heart and mind of Christ as He communed with His disciples, and then with His Father. But in order to glorify the Father He says, "As thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal". That is to say, He puts it entirely on the ground of sovereignty, for those to have it are sovereignly selected and given to the Son. What will He do with

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them? What can He do with them? What office can they fill? What representation of Him or of God can there be without life? And, so as to make clear what He had in mind, He proceeds to tell His Father that, "This is the eternal life ..." -- not that His Father did not know; of course, dear brethren, there is no such thought as that -- it would be irreverent even to think it -- it is that we might hear what passed between Them and understand how great a place this matter has with Them. And, as the Lord says to His Father, "This is the eternal life", let us hear what He says about it. He is not, for the moment, thinking of eternal blessedness, of a place in heaven, what He has in His mind is what is to be down here, what is to be representative, so that the Father should be glorified down here. Hence He says, "This is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God". There will be no such thought as eternal life in heaven. It is because we are here in the presence of what is idolatrous that the Lord speaks in this way, that the true God should be apprehended. For it is a question of the glorification of God as the Father here, and those given to the Son are to be taken on and given eternal life. The life is not simply that they live for ever, or even live in blessedness, but that they are to take on the idea of the true God down here. So that, if there be only one of them on earth, there is a testimony against all idolatry wherever it is. And then He says, "Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". "Jesus Christ", not 'the Son;' the life is in the Son, of course; it is one thing to know what it is, and another thing to know where it is -- it is in the Son, where God has placed it; it is placed beyond all reach of contamination and corruptibility; it is in the Son. But it is Jesus Christ that is to be known. How are we to be here as representative of God save as we know Jesus Christ? that is to say, it is the Man here.

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Now that is what I had especially to bring before you as to this matter of the Author of life, and what stands related to it in Peter's mind, that is, the man standing beside him, this man who lay at the gate of the temple and who had been lame. Peter saw that this man attracted attention, as Lazarus had attracted attention, for many believed on Jesus because of Lazarus -- the idea being the representation of life. They saw this man, it says; Peter saw that, he saw that the man drew attention. He himself, of course, drew attention, and John drew attention also, but not much. Even as regards the man, Peter had to direct his attention to them; he said, "Look on us;" but the lame man who had been made whole did not need to ask anybody to look on him. They looked on him, knowing what he had been, and now they see what he is. And Peter, knowing this, speaks about Jesus as the Author of life. He says, "By faith in his name, his name has made this man strong whom ye behold and know;" and then he adds to that, "the faith which is by him has given him this complete soundness in the presence of you all". It is not in heaven, it is "before you" (chapter 4: 10), before men. Now you see what is in mind. Peter immediately brings in what I have been speaking of -- the idea of strength. Well, that is one thing. We have been speaking of young people; I believe the ministry is largely for them. Why is it for them? Is the ministry arising from those who minister? It arises from Christ; He is the Author of all these things; He is the Author of every bit of spiritual ministry. He is the Author of everything that is of God, and He is the Author of the present ministry that is of the Spirit. It is no question now of praising it, but if there be anything that is spiritual, He is the Author of it; and what has He in mind? He wants to get the young ones. The old ones are necessarily passing away, and others come; it is the coming

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ones the Lord is thinking of. Not that He is neglectful of the old ones; He knows about them, He knows what they have been to Him, they are treasures in the measure in which they have been faithful; but He is thinking of the young. So here is a man, and Peter says, "by faith in his name, his name has made this man strong whom ye behold and know". John later says, 'You young men are strong; I want you because you are'. The Lord really ministers to us first because of what He wishes us to be, but He bases it on what we are. There must be something: new birth means there is something, the presence of the Spirit in a believer means there is something more, and the ministry is based on that. John says to the fathers (he does not neglect them), "Ye have known him that is from the beginning". The great value of the old brothers and sisters is their experience; they have what young people cannot have, and it is well to get the benefit of it. John salutes them, as it were, and says, "Ye have known him that is from the beginning;" there are no exhortations to them. But he comes to the young men, and he says, "I have written to you, young men, because ye are strong" -- but strength is not all. Peter says, 'This man is strong', but that is not all. You want to be perfectly sound, completely sound, that is what the Lord has in His mind in regard of life, it is that the believer is sound, that is, there is a uniform state of things in him. There is not a defect, not a bone, or a sinew, or a blood-vessel, or the heart, or any organ, defective. That is the idea, that He has made this man sound; he is perfectly sound. That is what is needed, and that is what John had in his mind. John doubtless would remember this. He was present and had to do with this man; he says, "I have written to you, young men, because ye are strong". Your strength is needed, but be careful of the world, with all your strength, you may look to the world;

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If you are married, your wife may too; the grown-up children may look to it too. If your strength is to be useful and used, you must look out for that. "Love not the world, nor the things in the world. If any one love the world, the love of the Father is not in him; because all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world is passing, and its lust, but he that does the will of God abides for eternity" (1 John 2:15 - 17). Now that is Jesus Christ, that is the knowledge of Jesus Christ, it is a question of One here who does the will of God -- the sent One, "Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". What is more to be desired in service or in testimony here, than to correspond with Christ in any sense, and in all senses? Wherever it is a question of service here we should seek to correspond with His life and His service in this world as the sent One.

Now I pass on to chapter 5, where you get the same word but it is in the sense of making things effective. We have been speaking today of the onus the Lord took on and how in Luke He says "that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses". Now Luke, in this second narrative of his, in quoting Peter again and the other apostles, says that the Lord is a Leader, not now of life, but to give effect to things. He is by the right hand of God exalted, and He is that to give effect to things. He uses one and another, but He is the Author of this great service of making things effective amongst us, for after all, what is light unless it becomes effective? He is the "leader and saviour, to give repentance to Israel and remission of sins". How much these things are needed that we might correspond with the Lord in this great initiative way of making things effective, for it is not only what is said on the platform, but making the thing effective. So Peter says, "We are

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his witnesses". He brings in the resurrection, the exaltation, and he says, 'We are all witnesses, and not only we, but the Holy Spirit'. As I was saying, dear brethren, the Lord is aiming at bringing us all into what He is going on with. There is too much of leaving things with leading ones; leadership is right, but He is aiming at bringing all into the thing, young and old, brothers and sisters. The Holy Spirit is the witness, and you cannot limit that to any man or men; the Holy Spirit is the witness, and He will use whom He pleases. Let no one exempt himself from this great service of making things effective, for the Holy Spirit is witness. He would use the youngest or the eldest in regard of what we know to make it effective. The Holy Spirit is given to those that obey, as much as to say, there can be nothing without this principle. If you obey, you are at His bidding. What a great thing it is to be at the bidding of the blessed Spirit of God! He is given to you because you obey in principle, and He wants to maintain you in obedience and He will use you.

I pass on now to Hebrews 12 so as to bring out what is really in mind as exemplary in christianity; that is, what Jesus does as the Author and Finisher of faith, or, as it might read, the Leader and Completer. This great thought God has in mind, the life of faith; let us just dwell on it for a moment. We may say the thief in Luke 23 hardly knew anything of it, and, if it were merely a question of saving people and taking them up to paradise, there would be nothing in it except the element that saves us. But there is this great idea of the life of faith, and the Spirit of God so loves it that He begins with Abel and carries the thought right down in chapter 11, and then He says, "Looking stedfastly on Jesus the leader and completer of faith", and "Let us ... run with endurance the race that lies before us". He has been the Inaugurator of this great thing in which we

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all have part. It is that which is so delightful to God, pending the coming of the Lord when it will be no longer a question of faith but of sight. The Lord honoured it, and said to Thomas, "Blessed they who have not seen and have believed" (John 20:29). He is become the Author of that, the Inaugurator of it, and the setter-out of it, in His own Person. Let us just for a moment dwell on Him. If one, by the Spirit, can help in the matter, to ponder the Lord over against what I have been saying, as He takes up a position in this world in lowly dependence upon God. "Preserve me, O God:" He says, "for in I trust in thee" (Psalm 16:1). Think of Him who is the Author of life, think of Him who created all things and upholds all things, taking that lowly attitude here where we are; for geographical position has nothing to do with this matter, wherever we may be on earth. Jesus took up that attitude, and He says to Jehovah, "y Lord", and He says, "to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight". What an example, dear brethren, for young christians here beginning the life of faith! What place have the saints with you? What place had they with Jesus? He says, 'All My delight is there'. As regards God He says, "My goodness extendeth not to thee" -- one wonders how He could say that, but He said it; it is to bring out the lowliness, the humility of One who is exemplary of the great idea of faith. "The saints", He says. The Lord is greatly helping the young as to the saints. The natural disposition of the young people would be to complain about the saints; and, in that respect, it is wise for parents to avoid complaining about the brethren in the ears of their children. I know it is difficult; indeed it is a reproach to oneself to have to say that it is difficult to avoid complaint. There is too much complaint, I know that; but complaint in the ears of the children is pretty sure to teach them

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to go that way, and to lessen the value of the saints in their minds. Now this is an important matter, for the saints, beloved, have to be understood abstractly as well as concretely. I quite admit that, if you look at me in my everyday life, there is plenty to complain of; but if I learn to stand on the top of the rocks and get the vision of the Almighty, then it is different. I learn to look at the saints, as I am entitled to, entirely in relation to the work of God in them. I am entitled to do that; God does it. Were I to do it, I should have much less complaint. But children are prone to complain, and the more distant we are from the Centre, the more we shall complain. Those who were on the edge of the camp complained, we are told, in the wilderness. So that complaint has to be judged in that sense, and Psalm 16 which sets out so wonderfully the path of Jesus as the Author and Finisher of faith, is an example. He says as to the saints, "All my delight" is there. Even the Father, speaking of the Son, does not say 'All', He just says, "my delight", for He had ourselves in mind; He would bring us into it, He would not leave us out; we are essential to the pleasure of God in relation to Jesus. But here this lowly Man, looking up to God and speaking to Him as His Lord, says, "My goodness extendeth not to thee", but His mind and heart extended to the saints and He found satisfaction in them. What a thought that is! What pleasure the Lord has in these meetings of the brethren! He came in and went out amongst them, Peter says. He had seasons of joy when He was here with His disciples.

And then He spoke of His inheritance. What an inheritance He had! I was speaking of young people here. Some may be just asking for fellowship, as we say, but you see the thing becomes hackneyed. What do you mean when you say, 'I want to break bread?' What are the saints to you? What the saints are

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must come into your mind. You are going to be with them, you are casting in your lot with them for time and for eternity. As you go on you will say, 'I would not go to heaven without them'. That is in principle what the epistle to the Ephesians teaches. We are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. There is no such thought, as far I see, of one saint going to heaven by himself. I know Elijah and Enoch were taken up, but the idea of going to heaven is for God's satisfaction. It is for our blessing, of course, for our exaltation, but we go up together, made to sit down together in the heavenlies. Now we have to learn, in coming in amongst the saints, to value them in that way. You are committing yourself to them for time and for eternity, and the more you know them, the better you love them. God loves them; the Lord Jesus said, "In them is all my delight". Then He says, "The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage". He is alluding to the book of Joshua; that is what any christian, any believer, should expect, that God apportions him something. You want what God apportions you. With the Lord Jesus as a Man of faith here, it was a question of what was allotted to Him. Think of the Lord Jesus limiting Himself, so as to be, as a Man, an example to us. "The lines are fallen" -- where have they fallen? They fell "unto me". The book of Micah teaches us that when God is dealing governmentally with His people in judgment there are no lines, no apportionment. In christendom there is no apportionment, there is no apportionment for people who take their own way. The Lord apportions things to people who love Him, who take the place of dependence, and is it not better to leave the matter in His hands? "The lines are fallen unto me" -- better to take the Father's apportionment. How humble and simple this makes us; it keeps us from

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treading on other people's paths and territories; it is a question of what comes to us, and God makes it known. He says, 'That is for you', and it is measured, mind you, it is no accident; "the lines" means it is measured. God is a God of measure (2 Corinthians 10:13): I love that! That is for me; God sees to it that that will not be taken away from me. As the Lord said of Mary of Bethany, she "has chosen the good part" -- that was to minister to Him; and, He says, it "shall not be taken from her". He accorded to her a portion in what she did.

Then He goes on to speak of life; He is the Author of life. Now He says to God, "Thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol" -- how perfectly He accepted death; was it nothing to Him? 'Oh', you say, 'the cross, the forsaking of God, were terrible things'. But death was something to Him. "Take me not away in the midst of my days!" Did He not feel dissolution? (I speak reverently). Did He not feel keenly that it was before Him to die? Nothing is imposed on Him, I admit, He laid down His life as a divine Person; but He was a Man and He contemplated life. I am seeking to show what a man according to God should be, and how a man living the life of faith appraises everything, and ignores nothing that comes from God. He says, "Take me not away in the midst of my days!" He felt it; but He says, "Thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol, neither wilt thou allow thy Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt make known to me the path of life". Think of the Lord of glory, the Creator and Sustainer of everything, the Originator of life, using such language! To God it was delightful, every moment of it, but it is also exemplary for every one of us that we might live the life of faith, and the life of faith is to be in constant touch with God. Read that psalm and you will see. And right at the end He says, "Thou wilt make known to me the path of life".

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Think of Jesus saying that. It is a perfect Man under God's eye here pursuing the way right up to the glory. He says, "thy countenance is fulness of joy; at thy right hand are pleasures for evermore". Well, that is what He is, dear brethren, He is the Author of that life and He is the Finisher of that life. As I said, it led up to the presence of God. So here, as the writer says, "Looking stedfastly on Jesus the leader and completer of faith: who, in view of the joy lying before him, endured the cross, having despised the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God". He is set down, the thing is finished. I hope I have made this thought attractive to your hearts, and that you will look into it -- the life of faith. We have been speaking of the coming of the Lord. It is well to think of it -- to wait for God's Son from heaven -- but filling out the interval is the test. And what were the Thessalonians doing? They were serving the living and true God, and that is the word for us, what the interval is to be filled up with; it is to be filled up with faith and all that goes with faith, the service of God, the living and the true God.

Well now, in the fourth scripture we rise to what I have just been speaking of, the service of God, how that Jesus is said to be the Leader of our salvation, and what is brought in here, as you will observe, is the fulness of Deity. I mean in the sense in which Deity is operative, "For whom are all things, and by whom are all things". That is to say, if He is leading sons to glory, it is for Himself, "For whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory". Now this is not taking us to heaven literally; it is not when the Lord comes; that is not what is alluded to. What is alluded to, dear brethren, is what God has in His mind for Himself. He is helping us, I believe, on these lines. As we draw near to the end of the assembly's period

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on earth all this comes into prominence, what is for God, and in leading many sons to glory, that is the thought. Not simply taking them up in power, but leading them means that the sons are intelligent; the idea involves intelligence, for it is said that "as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" (Romans 8:14). They understand leadership, and not merely in an objective leader, but in the promptings of the Spirit within them. It is a very great matter, to be so clear in your soul of uncertainty, uncertain promptings, that you discern the Spirit, that you discern the gracious impelling movements of leadership in the Spirit. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God". They are marked off, you see them moving; the locusts have no king but they move, they move together, they go forth, we are told, in bands (Proverbs 30:27), a very great thought, a great spectacle for heaven to see persons who are linked up in this way in intelligence as possessed of the Spirit of God moving together. Well, this thought is extended in the passage I read, "In bringing many sons to glory", He makes "perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings". Now I want to finish with this thought of being perfect, that the Leader of our salvation, dear brethren, is perfect. You say, 'What salvation is it?' Oh, this is a glorious salvation; this is salvation. When in Ephesians 2 the apostle is speaking about saints being raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ, he says, "By grace ye are saved", he is speaking about salvation from place, as well as from what is evil, from the world. The Leader of our salvation has been made perfect through sufferings. He is leading us into complete salvation, that is to say, the laying hold of the heavenly position and the taking a place in it, that you belong to it, that you are fixed in it, and that, as there, you apprehend Christ as

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made perfect, so that you might be there. It is no question of any moral effect, of course I need not say that; it is a question of a state that was needed so that the divine end should be reached, that God should have sons there, and such as should be led there, or brought there, through their intelligence. It is a process, dear brethren, and the Leader of it is made perfect through sufferings. That is, you see Him as He is as having gone through what we are going through, and nobody is really of any moral value who has had no experience of sufferings. It brings us into accord with Christ, it gives us colour, this suffering; it gives us distinction, it gives us stability and suitability in the fibre of our beings. It is no thought of what is conferred merely; it is what we are as brought through in this way so that we correspond to Christ. It "became" God, as if it were incumbent on God to fulfil His purposes in that way, to bring them through sufferings, so the Leader is made perfect through sufferings. Hence the assembly is formed, not only of persons who are sons as having the Spirit of adoption, but as suffering ones, as those who are marked in the fibre of their beings by suffering; they have gone through the thing. That is what God is looking for in the assembly, dear brethren, so moral correspondence is pursued, for "he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises". You see, dear brethren, what God is aiming at is this position of sons being brought to glory with a Leader made perfect, and in the assembly this thought of suffering, corresponding with Christ, appears. The very fibre of our beings, as I say, is this, that we are brought through to correspond with our great Leader. It becomes God to do this, it was incumbent on Him from the very exigencies of the

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situation, the circumstances, that He should do this, and the point is to be in His hands so that whatever He passes us through is accepted, for it all has in mind correspondence with Christ. He was made "perfect ... through sufferings;" that is, He has reached it by a certain process that sets me there. The position of perfection is a state He has reached in this way according to the determination of God. It is no question of what He was personally, but "it became him ... in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings". So that the led and the Leader, the One who brings us there, are of a kind; they are of a kind in suffering, dear brethren. "I will shew him", the Lord said, with regard to Saul, "how much he must suffer". We are of a kind in suffering, but then we are 'one' -- whatever that may be. "Both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren". And so, as I said, the service of God goes on.

Let us think of all this, dear brethren, so that we may be equal to things, not only taking on the terms in themselves, but to be in the things and thus answering in the end to the mind of God!

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SPIRITUAL REFINEMENT INVOLVING WHAT IS LOVABLE

John 12:3, 17; John 20:17, 18; Revelation 3:7 - 9

My address this evening will be on refinement, spiritual development and refinement, and I selected John's writings because he has this in mind, he himself being spoken of by himself as "the disciple whom Jesus loved". If we are to know what is refined spiritually, we learn it from examining the features of the examples of persons who are said to be loved divinely, either by divine Persons or by persons who typically represent divine Persons. For where persons are said specifically to be loved by God, or by Christ, or by those who represent Them typically, these persons are lovable, either potentially or in result. God has an eye, dear brethren, for what is refined, His beloved Son being the infinitely perfect model of it. As we often say to the Father and to one another, He opened the heavens to Jesus and said to Him, "Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased". That was not potential, that was actual, for every breath of that blessed Person from the time He drew breath, and indeed His life before, every pulsation, was pleasing to God. We take in but little -- and I speak for myself -- of the humanity of our Lord Jesus, how in Psalm 16 He addresses God as dependent upon Him, and throughout that psalm and others, He expresses His feelings in His own way and in His own language, as to Himself as Man. All these feelings, and all the movements of His heart towards God were delightful from the very outset. So the word as to Himself was, "Thou art my beloved Son;" as to others, "This is my beloved Son;" that was as He "began to be about thirty years of age". He had grown from infancy to

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that point and heaven watched everything and expressed itself at the Jordan as He is baptised and praying. Then on the mount of transfiguration we have the same thing, with the added word, "Hear him". There, dear brethren, we have God's estimate of perfection of refinement; not that there was any such process in Jesus. He was perfect from the outset, but He was the full expression, as Man, of what pleases God in man, and all the divine counsels and workings from the time of man's creation and before, indeed from the time of eternal counsels, had in mind to develop this in a race, that is to say, in men like ourselves.

So we find in the types examples of what pleased God, and in every case it is a question of what He anticipates in Jesus. In all the epochs you find some representation of what I am speaking of, and there were many others doubtless not spoken of in Scripture, but existent. We have, for instance, Enoch, who, "before his translation ... has the testimony that he had pleased God" (Hebrews 11:5). God was so pleased with him that He took him to Himself. I have no hesitation in saying that God has found pleasure in Enoch ever since, and myriads like him whose names are not recorded, but all known up there. Then we find, after the flood, such cases as Abraham, and others, especially in youth, such as Isaac, "Thine only son, whom thou lovest, Isaac" (Genesis 22:2), and again Rebecca of whom it is said that Isaac loved her. He is a type of Christ in His affection for the assembly, the assembly viewed as answering entirely to His own mind. He "loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it ... that he might present the assembly to himself glorious, having no spot, or wrinkle, or any of such things" (Ephesians 5:25, 27). He is labouring with every one of us. This meeting here even now is to that end, to present us to Himself all glorious. It would be, as I might say, dear

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brethren, His life in measure, what He shall find in the assembly eternally. And so He is working for the promotion of the best in us, His own ideal, and so we have, "For the perfecting of the saints" (Ephesians 4:12); the gifts are all to that end.

Then we find with Jacob that his mother loved him. Her love was in keeping with God -- a very great matter for mothers if their affections for their children are in keeping with what these children are for God, whether actually or potentially. She loved Jacob, and hundreds of years afterwards we are told that God loved him too. She knew prophetically what was in the mind of God about him and she loved him; she was spiritual. Then Joseph is an outstanding example of what I am saying; as a boy of seventeen his father loved him. Was he not lovable? Oh, he was lovable! The world cast its eye on him typically but he was proof against it, a most striking example for young men and young women. He suffered for his faithfulness but he was proof against the temptation of the world. Then we have David, who is an outstanding case. The first mention of him by name is not that his name was David, but that he was David. You say, 'What do you mean?' Well, I mean, beloved brethren, that that young man as described by the Spirit of God as he stood before Samuel to be anointed, was David, because David means Beloved. He was a delightful young man; he represents what I am speaking of; he represents typically, and in a sense, actually, what was delightful to God. There are many other examples, but they all point to the one thing, and that is what the divine ideal is and what the divine workings are to reach it, and how God would impress on each of us that He has this ideal and will keep to it. He is not going to be diverted from it. He has found it in Jesus, and He says, "In whom is my delight". He does not say 'All my delight' -- not that I would detract for a

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moment from what is there, but I believe the Father's voice had in mind to make room for all of us, for we come under the same heading under the Father's eye. The Father's counsels require so many, whether it be many brethren or many sons, they will all be there, and all be there according to the divine ideal. How this will be worked out may be difficult to us, but we may be sure of this, dear brethren, that the divine ideal will be worked out in every one of us.

Well now, these examples of which I have read are outstanding, and I proceed to speak of them in order, first as to what is acceptable or refined in worship, beginning at the top, as it were. It is often well to do this, to begin with the divine thought at its height, and what we find is that it appears, as is usual with John, informally. The less formal we are, dear brethren, the better; not that there should be any irregularity or disorder or unseemliness in anything that christians do, for love never fails, love never behaves itself in an unseemly manner; but it always avoids officialism if it can. Officialism is stilted and awkward if by itself and tends to militate against family affection. So you find Mary of Bethany is a development of a family, all of whom were loved by Jesus. We are told in the chapter preceding this that the Lord loved the three of them, Mary and Martha and Lazarus; they were loved as a family. There are no parents mentioned; it may be a suggestion of what comes about even before headship is known. In truth, the absence of the parents was to make room for headship in its truest sense, that is, to make way for Christ. And so it is in all families that the more spiritual the head or heads, that is to say the parents, are, the more ready they will be to disappear and make room for Christ. Some have cards hanging in their houses to the effect that Jesus is the silent visitor in this house; but He is never silent if He is in the house and there is anything wrong.

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So He came into Martha's house; she doubtless in her mind felt He was her visitor - He was. I am speaking now of Luke's account in chapter 10. He was on His way, as you will remember in the great parable of the Samaritan, as it is called, to the man who went down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell among thieves, and the Samaritan found him and cared for him and carried him to the inn. After that parable was finished, the Lord was moving. You will never find any suggestion of a time without something to be done in the life of Jesus. I mean to say, He is always under responsibility, as it were, there is always something to be done. So He is moving on, and a certain woman received Him into her house. It was a certain village; no doubt Bethany, but we are not told by Luke what village it was. But He is received into the house of a certain woman; doubtless she had in her mind that He was a distinguished Person. Indeed there is some evidence that she knew Him before -- her name is given immediately, and the Lord calls her by name -- but He is there in the house. Who is going to be head? Is Martha? It was her house, we are told; who is going to be head? That is a question for every parent, as to our readiness to make room for Jesus. Of course, if Jesus exercises headship in a house today it will be through the parents. I heard lately of some parents who spoke pleasingly of spending an hour over the Word in the mornings. Very good! -- but then they had allowed their children to go to school, or to business, without any reading of the Scriptures. That will not bring in headship. We must be sure that the Scriptures have their place with the children, that the mind of God has its place with the children, and that the instruction comes to them in the spirit of Christ as Head in the parents. If it does, Jesus will soon become known, and when these children grow up into manhood and womanhood

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they will take their places in the assembly, and they will understand that Christ is Head of the assembly, for that is where He is particularly Head.

Well now, Martha complained about the Lord, as we know; that was not making room for headship. Had she known who He was, as she did later, she would have made room for headship, she would have said, 'Oh, what an opportunity for us!' Think of who He is! It says of another person of whom Luke speaks that he "sought to see Jesus who he was", and he received Him into his house gladly and gave Him His place in his house, and the Lord said to Zacchaeus, "To-day salvation is come to this house". He did not say that to Martha; not that He was not salvation, if she would have let Him save her from her naughtiness, from her critical spirit, from her unfairness -- for she criticises the Lord too. You may say, 'I would never do that;' but the Spirit of God would not record anything discreditable in the saints were it not intended to teach us. Let no one say he would not do that. "Dost thou not care ... ?" she said. It is in those circumstances that Mary first appears and she was embracing her opportunity; she was sitting at the feet of Jesus listening to what He was saying; she was up to the mark as to what governed the moment. A little while before it had been said upon the mount, "Hear him;" it was said to Peter and James and John on the mount. Now Mary is hearing the Lord Jesus, and it is from this point, dear brethren, we get this wonderful development of which I have spoken. Luke does not give it to us; it is left to John to bring out informally the great results of the works of God; he makes more of them, I think, than any other of the evangelical writers do. And so he approaches this great subject very carefully, telling us that the Lord loved the three in the house, and telling us too that it was the Mary who anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped His feet with her hair -- that

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is the one that is in His mind in this inimitable narrative in chapter 11, one of the most remarkable and most touching you can find. The thought is that He is going to bring out the works of God in refinement in one person, in three persons indeed, but particularly in this person. So what you find is that in the verses read the Spirit of God tells us carefully that it was "six days before the passover", as if slight is being cast on the ceremonialism of that day; and so the Spirit of God slights the ceremonialism of this day. He would bring His people back to reality, back to the Spirit, so Jesus came to Bethany with a definite purpose; it was "where was the dead man Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from among the dead. There therefore they made him a supper, and Martha served, but Lazarus was one of those at the table with him". It is a beautiful scene; it is depicted by the skilled hand of not only a lover of Christ, but of a "disciple whom Jesus loved". And it says, "Mary therefore having taken a pound of ointment of pure nard of great price, anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair, and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment". This is the last of Mary of Bethany as far as Scripture shows, but very far from being the last, for she has a wonderful history in heaven. How she will appear there! Here she is brought before us in this perfect way as presenting what is best for the moment; it shone as the best item in that wonderful scene. It was the best she could get; no doubt it was begun in Luke 10 when she was upbraided by her sister and bitterly persecuted in the presence of the Lord. He defended her there; and now she is persecuted again by Judas and the others, and the Lord defends her again. He knew it was a great incident that should shine on this great and notable occasion: so He said, "suffer her to have kept this for the day of my preparation for burial". You may be sure that anyone who shines in this way at the present

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time in the service of God -- for that is what is meant, the worship of God -- will be defended. Persecuted we may be, but we are to glory in such persecution, in such sufferings; they but refine us, for, in bringing many sons to glory, God has made Christ His Son, our Leader, perfect through sufferings. Those who carry on the service today are those who suffer, and suffering such as this refines us; because you find she makes no retort, no complaint, she leaves it all with the Lord, and how beautifully He defends her, but not in simply rebuking Judas. He could well have done that, in name, but He rebukes him with that beautiful skill of His own, "Suffer her to have kept this", that is, He refers back to the history of this pound of ointment. It had a history, there was never one like it. It is not a box here; the tribute is to her own purity, her own holiness, she kept it herself without a box. "Suffer her to have kept this", He says; it is a question of past history, coming on to the moment, to that time -- to have kept it for His burial. There she is, a beautiful development of refinement brought in informally in this way, but shining in what she did, fragrant in the whole house. That is what God is aiming at at the present time, to promote spiritual intelligence in the assembly so that the service of God may be continued in increasing perfection and fragrance and in increasing acceptance to His nostrils.

Now I go on to speak briefly of Mary Magdalene. She represents, I may say, refinement in the sense of what is trustworthy; of what can be trusted with the very finest message that can be carried to man. The messenger must be equal to the message. It is no question of gift here, it is a question of a messenger. The word of old by Joab to the young man who sought to run with the message to David, was, 'You are not suitable;' "There is no news suited to thee" (2 Samuel 18:22). The messenger is to be suitable to

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the message, and Mary Magdalene is suitable to the message. Now, dear brethren, God is ready to send messages to us, and an address delivered in power is not in itself a message. It may be a rebuke, of course, it may be an exhortation, but a message has a peculiar character. It is what it contains, what richness there is in it; what there may be involved for the person to whom it is sent. Is the messenger equal to the message? Not simply the exercise of power in ministry, but to convey messages, divine messages, to the saints. They are all ready, they are there; God is ever ready, the Lord Jesus is ever ready, to send messages -- messages of love. The epistles from Rome are all messages. Take Philippians, for instance, what a message it was, and also all the others from that prison, from that suffering apostle, that lover of Jesus and of the saints -- they were all messages. How one covets to have a message! Well now, that is what Mary represents, and surely it is something to be aspired to. A sister can carry a message -- you see it here. It is a question of the vessel -- and what a vessel she was! Think of what she had been. Out of her had gone seven demons; what a vessel of wickedness at one time! I suppose that is what is meant, the wonderful triumph of grace, and, more than grace, of love, for the chapter shows that; it is the skill of Jesus making this woman what she should be to carry a message. I am not saying that is everything about her, for she has a place amongst the saints, but the point here is that she carries a message, she is ready for this, she is a learner ready to take in the Lord's thoughts. Now He says -- that was the finishing word -- 'Do not link Me with anything down here: do not link Me with the garden or with the earth any more -- that is all deferred till the millennium. It is what is going on here I am thinking of -- I am ascending to the Father'. You know the whole hierarchical system is a question of what is down

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here. Cathedrals are built as if they are to stand for millenniums. But that is not the thought in christianity; it is what is up there. It is down here in testimony, of course, but not resident here, not, as belonging to the place. So Abraham made his servant swear, 'See that thou take not my son out of this place; do not take him to Syria'. Jesus is to stay in heaven; it is a question of the heavenly position, and our being brought to Him where He is. That is the point for the moment. So Rebecca is brought to Isaac, and the assembly is being brought to Christ, not on earth but in heaven. That is what is involved in Mary's message, "Go to my brethren". There is not a word about Galilee here, as in Matthew and Mark. "Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". Of course it was a great thing that He was ascending to His Father, but now, "your Father", as if to say, 'You will have a place with Me up there: where I am going, you will go, but, in the meantime, take them the message' -- and she takes it. There is no show or pretension about her as so distinguished. No, she just goes, John says, and tells the disciples. It is very beautiful and all most seemly; she just tells them that she had seen the Lord and that He had spoken these things to her. That was all; what power there must have been in it and how one would love to have heard it!

Now I go on to Revelation to show you how this refinement goes on in spite of the breakdown of the public assembly. The assembly that is presented by John in chapter 21 of this book, is no remnant. It is a city, it is "the bride, the Lamb's wife", descending from God out of heaven. God works out His thoughts in spite of the breakdown of the public body, and you see the great result in this chapter. How glorious it is! There is not the slightest suggestion of anything wanting, no imperfection in it, and

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after a thousand years, the assembly comes down again as a bride; there is no old age, there is no thought of anything effete or disappearing; all is in continual freshness and beauty, in that chapter. But still, as regards the public position, as in Israel of old so it is today, God has to work in difficult times. Instead of fair winds, there are contrary winds; broken days always involve this. The pristine days of the assembly involved a fair wind, a sound from heaven was heard of impetuous blowing and the Holy Spirit came in power, but in these times it is a contrary wind. But God works in spite of the contrariness, and He calls upon us to have part in what He is doing. Now Philadelphia comes in after Sardis. There are four assemblies, as you will remember, spoken of in chapter 2, ending with Thyatira, and there are three in chapter 3. Philadelphia is the second one in chapter 3. It is, as many of you will know, the presentation of the work of God in the midst of general departure, Sardis being Protestantism in its sterile state; and in a dead state of things, God indicates prophetically, as coming in in Christ, something for Himself. That is the point -- and it has come about. We are not told here how this beautiful state of things actually came about; we have to go elsewhere to get the history. The types help us, and 2 Timothy helps us, and indeed all the later epistles help us, they help us as to how, in spite of the great general departure from God in the history of the assembly, God has effected something for Himself at the end. Has He not done it? It is not that anyone would call attention to himself or those with whom he walks; it is a question of viewing the thing as a whole as representative of the assembly, for the Lord never for a moment loses sight of the assembly. In His breastplate on high every member of it is there constantly and interceded for, "Always living to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25).

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Think of that, as if He were not doing anything else but making intercession for us!

He says, "To the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia write", and He calls attention to Himself as the Holy and the True, as much as to say, 'You understand what I am speaking about;' that is a feature of the revelation, that the faithful understand. So Daniel says, "None of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand" (Daniel 12:10). That is what is in mind here -- the wise understand; Philadelphia understands, she understands who "the holy, the true" is; the Lord knows it and He presents Himself to her according to her intelligence, and He says, "I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut". I have alluded to this already tonight; we are here together because of it: were it not for the mighty hand of Christ opening the door for us, we would not be allowed to be here tonight. Let us rejoice and be glad in what the Lord has done for us and make the most of it. He says, "I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut" -- what a word that is! It is a door into the purpose of God, a door to evangelise too, a door into anything that the divine will requires. The way is open to us and the Lord keeps it open that we might enter into the divine thoughts and the divine requirements, that the service of God as revived should go on and go on, and become more and more acceptable to Him. So He goes on to say, "Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet", -- not 'My feet', but "thy feet". Just think of that, how Jesus will compel the enemies of the assembly (for that is what is in mind) to come and own her, to worship before her feet, that they may know "that I have loved thee". What a word that is, that the Lord loves the assembly. The more one understands this the less would one

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arrogate it to any particular company of christians: it is an abstract view of the assembly, but the concrete thing is somewhere. The Lord is not speaking abstractly only, the concrete is somewhere, even if only in a very few. He is speaking of her keeping His word and not denying His name; that is all very positive and practical, and the Lord is taking account of it and thinking of the whole assembly. The more we think of the assembly and the more we love Jesus, the less we will arrogate Him to ourselves. The exercise of every lover of Christ is to get all the saints. The Lord knows them, they are His, He knows where they are; and the more we are with Him the more we shall know where they are, and the thing is to get to them. He says, "Behold, I stand at the door and am knocking". Well, He is doing that through His people: that is what is going on, and every lover of Christ wants to be used by Him to knock at the doors of the saints so that they will let Him in to sup with them, and they with Jesus. That is, that He might come into the assembly, into that realm where the service of God goes on, where Christ is known as the "Minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man" (Hebrews 8:2).

That is all I had to say, and I think you will see that Philadelphia answers to the thought -- He says, they "shall know that I have loved thee". They may traduce the saints who are true to Christ, they may malign them. This synagogue of Satan will do its best to overwhelm those who love Christ, but He says, "I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee". What a word that is! And moreover He says, "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world". That is a promise every one of us should count on and pray about; as we see the antichristian

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tide of evil rising, we have that promise to plead before the Lord. He will always honour it, "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world".

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ELDER BRETHREN AS SPIRITUAL EXAMPLES

1 John 2:13 (first clause); Genesis 24:1 - 9; Genesis 48:12 - 14; Deuteronomy 31:14, 15, 19, 30; Deuteronomy 32:1, 2; 1 Chronicles 29:20

What is in mind in reading these scriptures, dear brethren, is to speak about the elder brethren. In almost every meeting of this kind a special appeal is made to the younger saints, and God is honouring these appeals, but the burden tonight is the elder brethren. It was in John's mind, as you will observe, in this verse. The younger were in his mind, too, the children and the young men; but the fathers were in his mind, and he says, "I write to you, fathers", and then, "I have written to you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning". He was a father himself, he was an apostle, but he had acquired, through exercise and affection in caring for the saints, the status of a father, so much so that he addresses the saints in the beginning of this chapter as his children. That is to say, children characteristically, not merely little ones, those of a family. He had evidently lived, as we say, to a ripe age; but fatherhood is not founded on years alone, it is founded on experience with God in the care of the saints in a parental way, so that the status of a father develops and is owned. Now, in calling attention to John in this way and to the fact that, as is generally understood, he lived to be old in the service of God and was owned and could take the place of a father in writing to the saints and in ministering to them, I would say that the thought of fatherhood is not necessarily a question of old age as regards years, for some become old quicker than

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others, and Paul alludes to himself in writing the beautiful letter to Philemon as "being such a one as Paul the aged". He could not have alluded to himself as particularly old from the standpoint of mere years, the facts that we have as to him would indicate that he did not live to be a very old man, for apparently he suffered martyrdom comparatively early. I have no doubt he was as young at the time of his martyrdom as many of us here. David too was regarded as an old man at seventy, and there are many of us here that age. Again, Solomon is alluded to as having become old when, from the facts we have, he could not have been more than sixty, and there are still more of us here of that age. Indeed, oldness relatively may begin even earlier than sixty, and certainly we may take on the character or characteristics of a father before we reach that age. So that what I have to say will directly apply to a goodly number of persons, and will, I hope, have instruction in it for all. For, whilst John addresses the saints in a graded way, little children, young men, and fathers, he also addresses them all in the same passage, not in three epistles but in one. So that what he said to each grade would be of profit to all, for surely a young person, a young believer, would have certain aspirations come up in his heart as he hears these words of the apostle, "I write to you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning". Would not the youngest normally aspire to this? It is set before us -- to know Him that is from the beginning; that is, Jesus from the outset, whether it be His birth or His testimony here. No believer normally would settle down to know just enough to get through, as we say. Normally a believer who loves Christ would aspire to know all about Him, and what a prospect, may I say to the young, lies before you, to know all that may be known about Jesus, about Him that is from the beginning.

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Well now, I proceed to the Old Testament, having in mind Paul as the characteristic old person in christianity, that is, "being such a one", as he says, "as Paul the aged". I suppose, whilst he was not egotistical in the remotest degree, the Spirit had in mind that he was most distinguished, if not entirely unique, "being such a one as Paul the aged". That is to say, one who had gone through so much; for the Lord had said of him earlier, He is "an elect vessel to me ... I will shew to him how much he must suffer for my name" (Acts 9:15, 16). What a history prospectively lay stretched out from the Lord's point of view, what this elect vessel should be, what he should suffer! He says, "I will shew to him how much he must suffer". It became God "in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings" (Hebrews 2:10), and this thought would apply in the Lord's mind to this potentially great servant, that he should suffer. That was the great thought initially in the Lord's mind that he should suffer, a thought that is not much relished by us, but yet, beloved brethren, it must be accepted. If God is bringing us as sons to glory, surely we should aspire to have some part in the sufferings, for our Leader is made perfect through sufferings. It is not that there was any want, anything lacking, in Christ at any time; all was perfectly normal in Him at every stage of His holy life, but perfection through suffering alludes to what was needed, in the mind of God, for us, a standard for us. It was needed for Christ to reach where He is on that line -- it became God. "It became him for whom are all things, and by whom are all things". Think of what He had in mind, dear brethren, what He intends us to be as before Him, as in relation to our great Leader; He intends us to have part in the sufferings. You may say, 'It becomes us', but it became God; it was necessary from His point of view

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that the Leader of our salvation should be made perfect through sufferings, and He intends to have us before Him in accord with that Person, with that holy Sufferer now glorified. As seeing Him there, we shall understand how essential the sufferings were, so that He should be there answering to the counsels of God as our Leader. And so, as I said, I take Paul (I believe rightly) to be the characteristic aged person in christianity, such a one as he. I proceed to the Old Testament to show how the features that are proper to old brothers and sisters shone in Old Testament times as types, and more than types, for in some sense there was substance in all these persons, Abraham, Jacob, Moses and David. They tower above all others, I may say, in this sense, and the Spirit of God gives us their ends so that we might see and learn what is expected from us as advancing in years, how we finish in setting out or maintaining the mind of God in some particular feature. It may be the feature that has been especially set out in our little service, for the idea of the libation, the drink offering, should certainly come in at the end, to be poured out, as the apostle says, "as a libation on the sacrifice and ministration of your faith" (Philippians 2:17).

Now in Abraham we have one imbued with heavenly thoughts as he is finishing, and how essential it is that in passing off the sphere of testimony to be with Christ, or as finishing up the dispensation if He come soon, we should be imbued with heavenly thoughts. That, as the apostle says, we should apprehend that for which also we are apprehended of Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:12), that we should obtain the prize of the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus. How important it is that we elder ones should be full of these heavenly thoughts, thoughts indeed that are proper to us, that belong to our place, our commonwealth which is in the heavens, as we are told, and that our backs are really to the world and to the earth,

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even, as we say, in a good sense, that we have left all, that we have learnt the gospel of place, the salvation from place by the laying hold of the heavenly position. Now that is what comes out in Abraham. He is an old man, but he is very definite as to what is in his mind; that is another great feature, to be definite as to what is particularly in one's mind. And he is thinking of his son; he is thinking of Christ in type. He is thinking of the assembly in type, and he is determined that there shall be no admixture allowed, that there shall be nothing unsuitable allowed in this proposal; that is to say, the bride must be of the family of Abraham. I need not enlarge on that, it is well known amongst us, I trust; Isaac must not be taken out of the land; he must remain in the land. It is no question, dear brethren, of Christ coming out of heaven corporeally. It is a question of how we regard Him, and what we connect Him with, whether we have come to it to connect Him only with His own place, with the place to which He is indigenous, that He is of heaven, that He belongs to heaven, and that He is to be there eternally in fulfilment of the purpose of God, and that He is to have the assembly there. It is a question, as I said, of our thoughts, what is in our minds as to Him, what is in our ministry as to Him and what is in our minds as to the assembly. Abraham is most definite that Isaac must not be taken out of the land, he is to stay in it, and that the bride must be brought to him there, that she must be of his kindred, and that she is to follow. And he is so definite about it that he requires the eldest servant of his house to swear that there shall be no deviation from these great and holy thoughts that possess his mind as he is about to die.

Now I go on to Jacob (I pass by Isaac -- there are many that one could touch on as bringing out salient features of the fathers). Genesis is the patriarchal

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book, the book of the fathers, and Jacob comes out at the end as imbued also with great thoughts. I wish, dear brethren, that we might dwell on this a little, so as to be full of these things ourselves. Jacob stands out here as occupied with the sovereignty of God, that that must go through, that there must be no allowance of the slightest thought or shade of a thought in anything that we say or are, or in what we minister, to interfere with the sovereign selection of God. It gives great steadiness of mind to the saint when the principle of selection enters into it, the principle of exclusion and of selection. It gives great steadiness of mind to understand that God has His number; His counsels require a certain number, and they are all known to Him and He will have them and, 'As far as I am concerned', you say, 'He will have them. As far as my influence goes, as far as my words go, as far as my service goes, God's thoughts shall not be thwarted in the least degree. I will work with Him, and see to it that those He has in His counsels are to be brought in'. As the apostle says, that the elect "may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Timothy 2:10) -- the elect. He laboured and suffered reproach because of this; he had it in his mind that there were a certain number that God has set His heart upon, and that these must be secured; there must not be the slightest discrepancy between the number secured and the number desired in counsel. Now that was what Jacob had in his mind. I do not say he understood, I am only speaking of what the Spirit of God, who understood, has set down for us; for all the Scriptures are for us. They all awaited a people who had the Spirit indwelling them on the ground of redemption, who would be thus capacitated to understand these things. So that Jacob, though blind (he was in a normal old-age condition and did not ignore it; he could not do so -- he was blind) was imbued

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with the sovereign selection of God, that that must go through. The greatest man in Egypt under the king, Joseph, could not divert him from it. He says, "I know;" as much as to say, 'I know what I am doing, I am with God in what I am doing, and I am not going to be diverted'. It is the acceptance of the sovereignty of God that gives great restfulness, the sense that I am with God in His workings and I know what He has in mind will go through and I am going to be with Him in it and not allow anything to interfere. Then another thing about Jacob is he tells his sons the truth. "Gather yourselves together, and I will tell you what will befall you at the end of days. Assemble yourselves, and hear, ye sons of Jacob, And listen to Israel your father". A great matter in ministry and in our conversation is that the truth should be told out, whatever feelings may be aroused by it. Whatever Reuben is, whatever Levi is, whatever Simeon is, let us hear it, let it be known. Think of what Levi came to afterwards. Did it do him any harm to be told that he had to do with murder? No, beloved brethren, he had to come to that. Whatever has happened in our lives, we have to recognise it if we are to come into the purpose of God, to the sovereign selection of God, consciously in our souls; we have to come to accept everything, there is to be nothing unsettled, and the quicker we have things settled the better for us if we are to enter into these things. So he goes over the tribes and tells them everything, the good and the bad, there is nothing withheld. See what a man he was in his old age, dear brethren, what an example for us to carry on and tell the saints the truth, so that there might be a true estimate in each of us of ourselves as before God, and that everything should be settled, whether secret or public, that nothing should be unsettled, that everything is to be adjusted before God according to God. There is the

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means for it. John's epistle, with other scriptures, show us the great provision that is made for us so that things should be settled, that nothing should be left unsettled in our histories. Now that, in brief, is what I see in this patriarch, Jacob, as he is about to pass away through death. He knows it, he is not overwhelmed by the thought, he is victorious and he is full of the thought of the sovereignty of God and of the purpose of God in the tribes; so that, whilst he tells them the truth, it says he blessed them. He blessed all the tribes, even Dan, in spite of the things he has to say about them. You see what an example this is, dear brethren, for those of us who are getting on in years, that we may set out to the younger ones the reality of christianity, what it is, and how substantial it is, and how years do not interfere with it as faith is active in our souls. Years indeed only add to it; we become more mature and more appreciative of what is in Christ.

Now I come to Moses and drop from the patriarchal platform to the ministerial platform. Genesis is properly the patriarchal platform. Although David is called a patriarch and the heads of the twelve tribes are called patriarchs, yet the patriarchal book properly is Genesis, and those of us who are older do well to feed in that pasture in the light of the New Testament. Now when we come to Moses, as I said, it is a question of the ministers, those who are engaged through gift or other qualifications from Christ in heaven to serve. As advancing in years, what are our characteristics? Moses stands out as entirely unjealous in regard of the younger brethren. He says to Jehovah, "Set a man over the assembly" (Numbers 27:16). That was a fine sentiment; he never thought of nominating anyone, he left that with God. It must be so; nominations must come from God, promotions must come from God. How one loves to see a brother standing up in the assembly

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in ministry and to have the consciousness that God is promoting that man in that very instant. I have seen that. God is doing it; the assembly is His sphere and He knows how to promote the young men. I have no doubt that Moses had watched Joshua; he was his servant, his companion, but he does not nominate him. It is an entire mistake for any brother or brethren to press forward anyone to be a leader amongst the people of God; that is the province of God, that is His prerogative -- I mean through Christ. So Moses wished that there should be such a one, a suitable leader, in view of his own death, for he was about to die when he said that. And Jehovah says, "Take Joshua ... a man in whom is the Spirit" (Numbers 27:18). How Moses would understand; he needed no enlarged explanation of what that meant. He does not stop to ask Jehovah to tell him how he might know that Joshua had the Spirit. Jehovah says, 'He has the Spirit'. There can be no qualification for ministry apart from having the Spirit. The great Minister, Christ, had the Spirit: what He did He did by the Spirit here in His service. He is an example for us. Well now, in Deuteronomy 31 Jehovah requires that Moses and Joshua are to appear before Him at the tabernacle door. I dwell on this to show how this great servant in his closing moments took on the divine thought; and I can picture him standing there with this young brother. What a beautiful scene that was! The photographers of today try to get such pictures, but that is nothing at all. What they photograph is not what is going on at that moment, the radiation of affection and respect from the older to the younger. What a beautiful scene that was, and Jehovah comes down. How delightful it was to Him to see that old brother and that young brother stand side by side before Him. Jehovah is going to give a charge to Joshua, but He respects His old servant, He puts him there and says,

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'Now you write a song'. He says, "Write ye this song", as if Joshua is brought into it; and I have no doubt Moses would readily share honours with his young brother in the song. The more we are with God, the more we know Christ, the more liberal we are in sharing honours with our younger brethren. We have got enough and to spare, beloved brethren, if we are with God. Moses had enough and to spare of honour; think of the honour that God had put upon him. But it was Moses who wrote the song, and what an example we have there in this old servant, ready, as he is about to die, to write a song to order. It is God that requires it; Moses is ready for it, he does it at once, that very day, it says, he did it. We could hardly understand, but that is the minister, advanced in years, yet we are told "his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated". He is going to die, and he writes this song and he rehearses it in the ears of Israel as if he did it himself. How lovely it would be to listen, with the light we have now of that great servant, to that rehearsal, what he had just composed, what had come fresh through him, as we may say, by the Spirit of God, and to hear him rehearse it in the ears of Israel, and how fresh he was, 'My speech', he says, 'is like the small rain, like the dew'. Think of the beautiful tones as he rehearsed in the ears of the people he loved, the thoughts of God, what God was, first of all, and then, alas, what they were. How faithful is that song, just as faithful as were Jacob's words to his sons.

Now, dear brethren, another thought that comes in in regard to Moses is the dying at the will of God. I have no doubt these facts are written down so that those of us who are advanced in years and who are looking into the face of eventualities might be helped. These things are to steady and fortify us and to enable us to go forward unflinchingly and to maintain vigour and freshness and youthfulness to the end by

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the will of God. That man's death was on the divine calendar -- he dies according to that. How precious that is, dear brethren, that the life and the death of the saint is according to the will of God. And then how careful God is as to him after he dies, that he is buried by Him. I do not think there is much difference between Jehovah's burial of Moses and the burial of an honoured servant of God today. I know full well what our thoughts are. What a thing it was for Jehovah to bury him! We do not know what the instrumentalities used were, but could any instrumentality be greater than honoured saints, spiritual persons, laying carefully and reverently aside, as in the field of Ephron the Hittite, an honoured servant? Has God no hand in that? He certainly has a hand in that; that field is sown with wonderful seed which presently is to be manifested, "The first-fruits, Christ; then those that are the Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:23). Is not that equal to the burial of Moses? I am not detracting from the honour of that. No one ever had such a burial. But it says of Stephen that "devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him". Was not that a spiritual matter? It was. Was heaven not pleased with that? It was. And where Stephen lies is perfectly known to heaven, and he will come forth, with the rest of us, to stand with Christ at His coming for us.

Now I go on to David, to finish these great features as regards the old brethren. David represents many things, of course, and, as I said, he died young, as we speak; he was just seventy -- we have his exact age. Chronicles gives us the David of God's mind, all else, as it were, eliminated for the moment. God is entitled to do that. We get the other side in 1 Kings; but God is entitled to give us the bright side of His children as they are about to die, the side that is in His mind, the side that fits into His counsels

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about them. Let all else go, for it will go. And what you find about David in these wonderful chapters in the first book of Chronicles (from 22 to the end) is that he is thinking about the house of God. I believe David should be taken properly as representing headship, in that spiritual brethren as they grow older become more and more characterised by wisdom, by guidance for the saints, and the thought of God is that the whole trend of things for a man who understands headship is what the saints are to be in the service of God. So he sets up his son, young and tender, on the throne before he dies. Beautiful tribute to his unjealousness, and his wisdom too! His son was always an object of affection to himself and his mother and to Jehovah. What a young man he was, and how it enhanced and glorified the throne of David that Solomon was set up by himself! Now we have the doorkeepers, the porters, the singers, the priests, the Levites, and so on, all in order. David makes the most of everybody. He increases the Levites by reducing their age, and that is what the Lord is doing today, I believe, increasing the number of worshippers by appealing to the young and presenting to them the great truth of sonship as presented in the Lord Jesus. God is aiming at attracting the young, at increasing the worshippers by attracting them into this great thought of sonship. It is a question of consideration, of care, and that is what comes out in David, so that we have the number twenty-four, meaning that he is carrying everything forward; he is not omitting the services of earlier days, he is bringing everything forward. Every dedicated thing too must be brought in; the young people are to understand that it is not simply what is being ministered today, but all the ministry from Pentecost onwards is to be understood amongst us. We are to understand all the ways of God in the assembly by the presence of the Spirit amongst us.

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So David was an old man about to die. The Spirit of God dwells on him in this chapter, the times that went over him, but here is Solomon on the throne and everyone goes to Solomon, but now David says to the people, "Bless now Jehovah your God". Is it not an appeal to us that our whole concern now is worship? Worship is the thought in the verse I read. "David said to all the congregation, Bless now Jehovah your God. And all the congregation blessed Jehovah the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and did homage to Jehovah and the king". They did it.

I will close with this remark. I believe that the presentation of Christ in sonship as it is being enlarged amongst us through one and another by the power of the Spirit is intended to create a worshipful spirit amongst us, and that the attitude and bearing and language of the older brethren who love God and who love Christ, the bearing of all, is worship, "Bless now Jehovah", "Praise God". Do it in the assembly. Understand the assembly; every whit in it says, 'Glory'. God has that down here even now in which His service is to be carried on in this way, and He is appealing to the young, and the elder ones amongst us are to appeal to the young, by example especially, and to say, "Bless the Lord;" and they "bowed down their heads", we are told, "and worshipped". May God lead us more and more, dear brethren, into this great thought of His service in view of the end, the service of God carried on in leadership and headship in spiritual power by old and young.

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FAITH RESULTING IN CONFIRMATION AND ASSURANCE

2 Peter 1:1 - 21, 11 - 18

J.T. It is in mind to call attention to confirmation and assurance in the profession of christianity. The first chapter we read is peculiar in this sense as speaking of the way the blessing we enjoy comes to us 'through' certain qualities or attributes of God, not merely as light, but by certain qualities which are spiritually tangible and which become substantial in us. In the first verse faith is said to be received, "through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ". In verse 3 His divine power has given to us "all things which relate to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that has called us by glory and virtue". Then "He has given to us the greatest and precious promises, that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust". Christianity has to do with substantial things; it is not mere doctrine. The result is the believer is able to give an account of how things came to him. Then again, we are to have certain qualities in other qualities, "In your faith have also virtue, in virtue knowledge, in knowledge temperance, in temperance endurance, in endurance godliness, in godliness brotherly love, in brotherly love love". The apostles had not followed cunningly devised fables but were "eyewitnesses of his majesty". All these things are very positive and assuring.

Ques. How about faith standing in relation to the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ?

J.T. That is the first great element in christianity. Faith is mentioned first, but righteousness is the instrumentality through which we have the faith. The existence of "like precious faith" in us is a

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testimony to the righteousness of God. This quality being in man is proof of the righteousness of God. It is not inherent in anybody; it is a gift, a mercy received from God through His righteousness.

Ques. And the fact of our faith shows how much we have responded to the light God has given?

J.T. You are directed back to God's operations from the time sin entered into the world. Man got a conscience, it is true, but there is this principle of God's righteousness operating. God's clothing sinners with coats of His own making was a matter of righteousness on His part. Adam had faith as the result of this, for he called his wife's name Eve. There was something there; it was of God; it was righteous that God should make the clothes. Faith is the essential quality in man that lays hold of what God is doing, carrying out His counsels for man in spite of what had come in.

Ques. In the confusion of sin it was essential that man should have something outside the confusion; was that faith?

J.T. Yes, God proceeded from His own side and what He did was right. Faith came in in that way, not as inherent in man, but as a gift to be received. What God was doing had life in view, and faith comes in on that line. So Adam had faith. The righteousness of God was there before, but faith comes in on that line, in relation to its operations.

Rem. Faith is the substantiating of things. Hebrews 11 gives us the life circle founded on faith.

J.T. Yes, so Hebrews 11 is the "substantiating of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen". We have the promise of life before the world began, and sin having come in does not alter God's thought; He had life in mind.

Dr. V.S. Was the promise between divine Persons?

J.T. It was to someone. He made the promise anticipatively of man. The need of eternal life did

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not exist while man was innocent, but sin came in, and it brings out the resources of God and that He had life for man in His mind. His wisdom must always enter into His operations; He could not be taken unawares, so to speak. Morally, the most difficult feature God had to meet was the spoliation of His great thoughts by sin coming in, but He had His resource.

Ques. How about "Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord"? Are they substantial consequences of faith?

J.T. Yes. The order is cumulative; it is "Grace and peace ... in the knowledge". We enjoy grace and peace in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. It is a great thing to have the knowledge of God, "Let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me" (Jeremiah 9:24), but these qualities are concurrent with the knowledge. What richness there is in the believer's heart! This gives us the objective first of all, but the Spirit in us is the power by which we know. Faith works by love. As loving Him we dwell in Him and He in us. In the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord we have a multiplication of grace and peace to make us free and happy and uncomplaining.

Rem. When Isaiah got the consciousness of God, he said, "Woe unto me", and Gideon said, "Alas;" but we have peace.

J.T. Peace is a quality in the soul of persons who already know the gospel; the multiplication of grace and peace is for christian enjoyment. "Of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace" (John 1:16).

The next thing here is that His "divine power has given to us all things which relate to life and godliness" -- it carries on the thought of grace and peace. It is His divine power now; it is on the side of God,

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the Almighty God. What can He not do? Where did Rahab get her knowledge from? She knew all about the passage of the Red Sea, and what was done to the two kings on the further side of Jordan; she knew that Jehovah had given Israel the land. She had substance -- she had flax spread out on the roof. She had that with which she could hide the spies, a peculiar material in her house. She had also a cord, a line of scarlet thread; indeed she had all that was necessary for the testimony at that moment. She had the idea of the way of God -- a way that began when sin came into the world. Instruction in the way of God involves another way altogether, not the ordinary way: this woman was able to send out the spies by "another way". What she had was strong enough to let down the spies with; she had substance. If you get a bit of truth into your soul it works out in addition -- something is brought to you that adds to what you have got. You have the same thought in Romans 5, tribulation works endurance, and endurance experience, and so on. It supposes the existence of substance and contributes to it, these qualities effecting all this substance in the soul. It is important to arrive at what is substantial in our christianity; that things should not be just theoretical with us. It is with this in view that God moved and made the covering for Adam and his wife, so that the man is able to move in life. What took place in Adam's soul we are not told and we must not say too much about it for he is not included in the men of faith in Hebrews 11, but we are told that he called his wife's name Eve, the mother of all living, pointing to the faith in his soul. Adam heard what was said to the woman and he grasped the meaning of it and moved accordingly. Righteousness is what is instrumental in effecting substance, so that we have faith; it is not a negative but an active thought. Everything that God does is living, and we move with God in

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what He does. It was so with Abel and Enoch and with all the men of faith. Enoch walked with God, that is, he moved in relation to God. God would draw us into the spirit of His activities as the living God.

Dr. V.S. Faith is manifested in the way in which it is made good in our souls.

J.T. Yes. We have initiative ideas in Genesis, and the evidence of God's righteousness is simultaneous with faith in Adam's soul. God's righteousness as meeting sin is seen in the expression of His sovereign rights in mercy, and faith on our side goes on with it.

All these things are to assure us, so that we may never fall, but that an abundant entrance is ministered to us into "the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ". The everlasting kingdom is one that is already beginning, but which goes on. God had walked in the garden and Adam heard the voice of the Lord God walking -- it is a remarkable expression. God had walked in the garden, and He has not given up walking. He is still walking, and as clothing Adam He provides conditions so that Adam might fall in with Him again. The Adam who has come down to us is in relation to Seth, not Cain, in relation to one appointed in place of Abel whom Cain slew. Then Enoch also walked with God, and so did Noah.

Ques. Is faith an original thought with God?

J.T. I think that is right; it was one of His resources as sin came in. His righteousness is manifested and faith comes in contingent upon that. Faith is the substantiating of things. Hebrews 11 is a chapter of substances.

Rem. Faith uses what God has righteously provided.

J.T. Yes, so that evidence of life in Adam's soul was simultaneous with what God had done. Death

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had taken place to provide those skins. So Adam's name for his wife is most wonderful, that he should call her Eve, the mother of all living. How did he get the word 'life' or 'Eve', or the idea of what was living? It is wonderful that all this should be effected in his soul as a matter of faith. Faith has entered "through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ;" one divine quality effects another quality. The righteousness of faith in Romans 10 tells you what you are to say, and what you are not to say. Scripture is said to be a preacher, it has a power capable of affecting a man's mind.

Ques. Is this touched on by the Lord when He says, "My Father worketh hitherto and I work" (John 5:17)?

J.T. It is what God had been doing, and it is continuous -- the word is 'worketh' -- it is the continuity of God's operations. How great is the value to us of getting into that current, "through the righteousness of our God and Saviour". Two divine Persons are brought into it. Such righteousness is imputed to us in Romans 4.

Rem. The sovereign work of God coming into expression, there is an immediate answer by faith in the heart of the creature.

J.T. As we saw with Rahab, she had substance for that particular moment in the testimony. She had thread, and it is spoken of as a cord, and also as a line. Her faith was morally great enough to protect her, it is an evidence of substance. If you act on one bit of light, that helps you in other things. You have the expression "righteousness unto holiness" (Romans 6:19); the qualities are cumulative. Then, He has called us "by glory and virtue;" a man thus called will never revert to his conversion only, but will be occupied with building up a constitution now. He is getting daily confirmation in this building up of things. When the blind man is challenged in John 9 he spoke historically to his neighbours at first,

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but when he answers the Pharisees he says, "I see", not 'I saw' -- it is where he is now.

Ques. What do glory and virtue mean?

J.T. It is God's glory, but such as He has in mind for us. It is the gospel of the glory of another world. God began with Abraham by glory; the God of glory appeared to him. God has another world in His mind; a glory system comes into view for the saints and has a present living effect on our souls. When I was young, I remember how the glory of the great American Republic was presented to our minds to induce us to go out. A young man goes out and becomes an American citizen, and the greatness of the system fills his mind. That gives us something of the idea of the system, but how poor it all is, how disillusioned one is later! God has a glory system, and of that we can say, 'The half hath not been told!' In Hebrews 12 the first thing we are said to have come to is mount Zion, and see what it opens up to you -- God who is rich in mercy! Then you get the citizens, the innumerable company of angels: what wonderful society this new system opens up to us! Then there is the assembly of the firstborn ones -- sonship. Your conversion opens up to you this great system of things, this glory sphere.

Ques. What about verse 10?

J.T. You use diligence to make it real in your own soul. This glory and virtue is a wonderful thing; it is presented to draw us out of the world. Virtue is the power to say 'No' to evil, and 'Yes' to the good. So the cord, the golden thread, of virtue runs through Hebrews 11. They had opportunity to have returned, but they did not; the glory drew them out of the world. When the Lord called Peter, it was the call of glory and virtue. He had seen the power the Lord had over the sea, and he fell down at Jesus' knees. It was the power of the glory that led them to forsake all.

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Ques. What is the meaning of partaking of the divine nature?

J.T. The word 'partaking' involves substance, it suggests what is tangible -- it is a very wide thought. The divine nature is not Deity; it is what is of God in us. The expression only occurs here in Scripture. It alludes to what Jesus was here, or is, and we partake of that. That through these qualities "ye may become partakers of the divine nature". There is that in God as made known, which finds expression in man as partaking of the divine nature through these greatest and precious promises. He promised eternal life as anticipating the need that would come in through sin. So here, glory refers to the objective; virtue is the subjective. How the glory shone in Jesus here objectively! but then the virtue presents Him in every sense. In Luke 5 the ships were full of fish and the disciples drew them to land, but then they left all and followed Him. Jesus was here, and the glory shone, and on their part there was the power to say 'No' to evil and to cleave to the good. So that when the Lord asks, "Will ye also go away?" Peter at once answers, "To whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal". The glory had claimed them. He says, "We have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God". He had virtue in his soul. Virtue is moral courage to stand for God here, and that is a daily matter. These things are given to us that we should prove them and work them out into spiritual substance in our souls. This word 'virtue' is wonderful -- it involves that the flesh is not to be admitted at all. Virtue is the quality in yourself. It was virtue in Adam which led him to name his wife Eve. Where, we might ask, did the word come from? Faith knows how to name things according to what has come in on God's part. Faith lays hold of what He has done or is doing. Adam had called his wife Ishshah before this; he

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knew what to call her when God brought her to him, but now he calls her Eve, "because she is the mother of all living". It alludes to what God does.

Ques. "Life and godliness" -- does the life involve godliness?

J.T. It is life down here, to be known and enjoyed down here. Godliness is bringing God into your circumstances.

In chapter 3 Peter alludes to what is unstable and to ill-established persons, and says in verse 17, "Take care lest, being led away along with the error of the wicked, ye should fall from your own stedfastness". As we have seen earlier in chapter 1, one quality as received fits us for the reception of another, leading up to our partaking of the divine nature. Then in verse 5 of that chapter, consequent on all this, the believer is to have in his faith virtue, and in virtue knowledge ... Then the apostle goes on in verse 10, "Use diligence to make your calling and election sure, for doing these things ye will never fall". So that our establishment and confirmation is on very palpable grounds. We possess substance and can give an account of how we acquired it, through one instrumentality and another.

W.J.H. Peter showed he had substance when he said, "Silver and gold have I not; but what I have, this give I to thee" (Acts 3:6).

J.T. Yes, and he was ready to share what he had.

Rem. Job, too, would be able to give an account of how he received his great property.

J.T. It is very interesting to see in Job's case, that the second family was of the same size as the first, but the property is doubled. The first family is transposed into the second by a spiritual process, whereas the other substance is doubled. That is to say, the personnel of the institution is increased in quality; there were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job. "He takes away the first that

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he may establish the second" (Hebrews 10:9). Job's first family is taken away in judgment actually; but today the first ceases to be the first as accepting baptism and education in the school of God. The point is He establishes the second: we are to be established.

Ques. And the way we are established is through these qualities being added?

J.T. Yes. The principle of faith is that the first is set aside, not only in principle, but in fact. It is by displacement: faith disallows the first. Paul describes what he was after the flesh in Philippians 3, but it was all displaced in his soul. Faith lays hold of the principle, but faith supposes displacement, and we begin to accept this for ourselves, and our children as to what we profess to have done with. Ishmael is in principle the first -- the mocker, the one "born after the flesh". You get these features brought together in two brothers constantly throughout Scripture: Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau, Ephraim and Manasseh. The first is set aside and the second is established; that is a principle which faith lays hold of. We are prone to maintain the first by educating our children for the world, and in other ways. Job's family is on the principle of the second. Even Christ after the flesh did not fully answer to the purpose of God. He partook in blood and flesh in order to set the condition aside, and in order that we might reach Christ as He is now. It was Christ as He now is that was in the mind of God. "He takes away the first that he may establish the second". The divine thought is the second. "Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground and die, it abides alone; but if it die, it bears much fruit" (John 12:24). Christianity is developed out of what Christ is now, but all on the principle of the setting aside of the first. We have things in faith, but it involves the displacement of the first. "Ye shall never fall" is a very strong statement.

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Rem. Peter said he had left all and followed Christ.

J.T. Yes, and in leaving all, he came into spiritual substance. Peter in his epistles is dealing with the government of God. We can never tell what God may allow to come upon us by way of test; the government of God runs right through. We can never tell what test He may allow, but, as built up in spiritual substance, we shall never fail. David numbered the people at the very end of his life and encountered the government of God in judgment -- a solemn fact. Peter and the others said to the Lord, "We have left all, and have followed thee", and governmentally he gets a hundredfold now and in the world to come life everlasting.

Ques. Is the knowledge spoken of in verses 5 and 6 practical?

J.T. Just so, but it is not knowledge obtained at the universities; it is not philosophy or vain deceit, but such knowledge as virtue would accept. It is very important to have such knowledge in our houses. Many of us admit things for our children which we would not allow for ourselves.

Ques. So this knowledge is really christianity?

J.T. It is practical; you know how to distinguish, even as to the creature, between good and evil. You may say they are creatures of God, but they do not dominate you. Knowledge understands, and then temperance follows; you are balanced in your use of things here. Paul is the supreme test in Peter's mind; he brings in things on the highest level, and these the unestablished wrest to their own destruction. It depends on the Lord that we get knowledge, and know how to use things temperately. And then we have endurance and brotherly love, and in brotherly love, love. Love is of God.

Ques. All this has the divine economy in view?

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J.T. Yes. The divine government is the supreme test. It began in Eden when God placed the cherubim and the flame of the flashing sword to guard the way of the tree of life. This thought of divine government goes right through.

Ques. Would you say it falls more heavily on those who have been long on the way, and less heavily on those who are young and less established?

J.T. I think that is right. David is tempted at the close; it says God tempted him, and he fell under the divine test. We sometimes wonder why this or that happens, but we ought to know why. When David brought in the ark, he went six paces and then offered sacrifices; he made provision in that way for the last step. Peter is warning us that we might not be idle nor unfruitful as regards the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. How wonderfully Abraham answered to the test! God honours us if we stand to a severe test.

Ques. What does idleness convey?

J.T. There are people that trust to their conversion and go no further, such people are bound to be idlers; they are not working with God, and building up substance. Every day we should go over these items. "In your faith have also virtue" -- have it; it is a continuous thing.

Rem. All these qualities are inward.

J.T. Yes. We have knowledge in a general way in verse 5, but verse 8 gives us another side; we are progressing in these things "as regards the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ". It is the knowledge of Him where He is. Peter had had a revelation as to who Jesus was.

Rem. Proverbs 31 tells us the virtuous woman did not eat the bread of idleness.

J.T. She is just a type of the assembly in the persons who form it.

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E.F. Was the mount of transfiguration present to the mind of Peter?

J.T. Undoubtedly. Many hang on the historical fact of conversion. Peter relates what is truly historical, but then the testimony involved the "power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ". There were those who should see the kingdom of God coming in power. Here Peter puts it in another way, "We have not made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, following cleverly imagined fables, but having been eyewitnesses of his majesty". "This voice we heard uttered from heaven, being with him on the holy mountain". It is the only account of the transfiguration given to us by anyone who witnessed it. The wonder is that he said nothing of it till he was about to die. He knew, as about to pass off the scene, that every bit of truth was needed to confirm the brethren. It entered into the testimony given by the apostles.

Ques. How do we get this confirmation and establishment as regards ourselves?

J.T. On the principle of faith; that element being introduced into the soul, the divine qualities proceed on the principle of displacement. 'Majesty' is Peter's own word, supporting what he had said on that line in regard to the Lord on the holy mount; it was on palpable incontestable witness. They were "eyewitnesses of his majesty". They saw it; there was complete testimony to it from the three. Peter tells us of it with his own pen. There was irrefutable testimony to the "power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:" they saw this glory on the mount. The Lord was transfigured on the mount; it was not an external power applied to Him, but something inherent that shone out. They saw it "being with him on the holy mountain". It was the Lord transfigured, it was Himself, and they were with Him. It was personal. In 2 Corinthians 3:18 it is said, "We

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all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit". We are transformed as beholding the glory of the Lord, but in Him, as a divine Person, the power of transformation was inherent. In John 12:41 it says, "These things said Esaias because he saw his glory and spoke of him". The prophet spoke under the influence of the Holy Spirit, but they saw His glory and spoke of Him; the reflection of what Peter, James and John saw shone on the prophet. Now the believer lets in the testimony of these things, so that the word of prophecy is made surer. This epistle is written to confirm us in things already received.

Ques. The displacement would come in in connection with the working out of good and evil?

J.T. Yes, in our own souls. Verse 12 shows they had to be reminded of known things, he would stir up their "pure minds;" he calls on christians to fall back on what they already have. Christianity is substance.

W.J.H. The vision itself in the soul of Peter would be great substance.

J.T. Yes, the leading apostle needed it. Peter representing the kingdom and the government of God had this vision granted in view of his ministry; the kingdom had come for him in power.

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Pages 337 to 443, 'Putting on the New Man' and Other Ministry, 1937 (Volume 206, first half only).

PUTTING ON THE NEW MAN

Colossians 3:9 - 11; 1 Samuel 15:35; 1 Samuel 16:1; 1 Chronicles 12:23, 38

I have in mind to speak about the new man, a subject that will be of interest and, I believe, of profit, as the Lord helps in speaking of it. The very thought is delightful; as we consider the old man, what his history has been and what his current history is, how God is replacing him -- not only that He will replace him, but that He is doing it. So that nothing in that sense is sudden with God. He brings in what is in His mind beforehand on the principle of testimony, and on the principle of establishing what is better. So having a moral right to supersede what is evil; that is, the moral right is to be established before the thing is actually set up and prevailing. That raises the question as to us as God's people now; our position here is to establish moral qualities or values. He has not deputed angels to this service, He has deputed men. In Jesus "was life, and the life was the light of men" -- that is, it did not go beyond men. And the same writer, that is John, says, "The darkness is passing and the true light already shines" -- not that it should shine, it shines; but then it shines in men, it shone to them and in them and now shines from them, and very largely with a view to establishing qualities or values in a moral sense. Hence the value of every saint in God's account from this point of view. And what I have in mind is to show that, whilst we may take on the principle of the new man, we may not follow the thing up in detail. I want to show from the Old Testament how this appears in us, in perhaps the

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most distinguished among us, as Samuel was in his day the most distinguished amongst God's people. Brethren as a class are known to be persons who value principles; it is one of the best words we have, the word 'principles'. But then, whilst we may be characterised as holding principles, we may fail in exemplifying them. That is what I have in mind, dear brethren, and as the phrase "new man" is used, no doubt many here will understand that in Colossians it is peculiar in the sense that the word denotes youthfulness or freshness. That ought to appeal to all the young people here, that it is not a mere question of physical youthfulness or freshness, but spiritual, and I am inclined to think that it has more scope with the young. There is always a freshness about recently converted people. Whether they retain the freshness is another matter, but at any rate, young people who have received the light of the gospel and take their place in fellowship, as we say, commit themselves and become a peculiar asset in the local company. Their part, as we call it, is usually very interesting. And I refer to the youth in that way so that they may retain their interest and their attractiveness, that years may not detract from this freshness. So that Colossians deals with that kind of 'new', what is young and fresh. But then it also takes on the thought of knowledge that is not characteristic in that way. It is not simply the knowledge of a young person, which is usually defective -- not that I would disparage young brothers or sisters, but their knowledge is usually limited and defective -- so that the Spirit of God balances the thought of youthfulness and freshness in the christian with another word, that is renewal -- renewed in knowledge. That is, that the kind of knowledge you have and continue in is not what you learn at school, the high school or the like, or the college; it is a different kind of thing. So that God balances us in

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that way as to what we are constitutionally, young and fresh. We are not that in knowledge, our knowledge is different. It is different from the most learned in this world, from the most renowned person, lecturer or professor. The knowledge of the young christian is different; that is what the word means, "Renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him". It is in the knowledge that the image of God lies. We do not attach the thought of freshness or youthfulness to God, so that the character of God in the way of knowledge stamps the christian, even in his youthfulness. Both these things go together and make christians unique in this world. They stand out; there are none like them. These words cover us in that way that there is nothing stale or effete about us. We have not grown "old and aged", a remarkable phrase used in Hebrews; we retain our youthfulness and our freshness, but we balance that by a knowledge that is after God; we learn to know like God. Of course, all that has to come out in Christ; it is through Him we understand how God knows, what knowledge God has; it is a question of how Christ knew things, how differently He looked at everything. How much He could have told people in the days of His flesh as to so-called science, but He did not tell them much; but if He did speak of anything He spoke of it in His own way. We read of Him at the age of twelve in the midst of the teachers. It is a good thing for young people to understand that there are teachers, that is, that there are persons who are specially instructed. I do not believe in specialists amongst the brethren, but persons specially instructed I do believe in, and the Lord sees that there are such, and He sat amongst them. It was a fine sight -- He was "sitting in the midst of the teachers and hearing them and asking them questions" (Luke 2:46). Did He hear? He had His own way of hearing; He said

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God opened His ears morning by morning. Is there a college in the world where there is any such thing as that, where God opens people's ears morning by morning? There is not. Well, that is how Jesus learnt. I speak of Him now as Luke presents Him to us in the loveliness of that perfect humanity that shone in Him from a babe to a man and peculiarly at the age of twelve, when He was sitting in the midst of the teachers, hearing ... It was not that He heard merely as a natural boy; He says God opened His ears to hear. What a fine example that is for the young people, to ask God to open your ears so that you hear aright. It is not the ordinary way, it is the divine way, the new man is "renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him". We have to learn the divine way, it cannot be unfolded in words, it has to be understood through instinct as well as by what you hear. He heard, it says, and He asked questions. You never heard such a Questioner as He; no one ever did, how He questioned! Not that He would puzzle the teachers. He could have done so, of course; He could have confused them, but that is not the point. He was a boy of twelve and He acted in a seemly way, but He asked questions. There was never such hearing amidst the teachers, never such asking of questions, as on that day, at that time. Well, that is to be continued, that is the idea, "according to the image of him that has created him;" that is how the young christian thinks. Jesus was not a creation, of course. I am not referring to what He was, always the Creator; but by taking that lowly place He set us an example of how to get into the divine way of hearing, the divine way of questioning, and the divine way of answering, too, for He gave answers. They "were astonished at his understanding and answers", it says.

Well now, these two thoughts present the idea of the new man in Colossians. The thought is to make

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it attractive and I have in mind to take up David at Hebron as typical of Christ in this sense. We have to understand him, not only personally, but in the way he is presented to us in various settings in Scripture, and in this setting in 1 Chronicles, he is at Hebron. I want to show, from the verses read in chapter 12, how this thought of the new man came about, and how it became universal in Israel at that time. But first I want to show, from 1 Samuel, how we may take on the principle. I was saying that to be men of principle is a very fine thought, but let us not stop at the principle. Now Samuel was full of principles in chapter 15, and what I am asserting here is that, where God intends to expose those who are governed by the principles of the old man, He will always bring in a test. We shall not escape; we may cover ourselves for a long time, but we shall not escape if God undertakes to test us. So Saul had a long reign, and many of us do have a long reign; I mean so-called leading men, leading brothers. For God will give us rein, He will give us plenty of scope as we lay ourselves out to do anything in the service, in the testimony. But as sure as anything He will test us, and when the test is applied there is no escape at all, there is no possibility of hiding any more. So Samuel says to Saul, You know these sinners, the Amalekites, how they harassed Israel, now Jehovah says to you, You go and destroy them. That is the message. "Hearken", Samuel says, in the beginning of chapter 15, "to the voice of the words of Jehovah". It is not a general thought, it is the words. God tests us out in the words with which He clothes His message. "Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: I have considered what Amalek did to Israel, how he set himself against him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and destroy utterly all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep,

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camel and ass". I suppose the word would cover all these creatures; do not forget them, do not be too general; pay attention to what is said -- this is a test. And Saul undertook the commission and went and attacked the city of the Amalekites, and did well too. I am speaking now, dear brethren, not only of Saul, but of Samuel. That is, I am speaking of any whom God would test as a Saul, and I am speaking of all of us whom God would call upon to act according to the test and act fully according to the test, and observe the words in the test; "the words of Jehovah" it says. "And Saul said to the Kenites, Go, depart:" he is not going to be promiscuous and destroy everybody there. It is the Amalekites he is after; that is the commission. He does well. There is time to separate from Amalek, and he observes a good bit of strategy. He laid wait in the valley, as if he were to go down into death in what he is doing. He sees he is being tested, and he is not going to answer to the test, but he is going to palm off what he does as if he had answered to the test; he is going to conceal what he is at. Verse 10 says, "The word of Jehovah came to Samuel, saying, It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king". This is before Samuel hears anything; it is what God is thinking about. It is now a question, dear brethren, of the saints coming into this matter and getting to God's point of view in the matter. It is a secret matter, but God sees the thing; He sees what is going on in Saul's heart all the time in the conflict with Amalek, and He says, It is all over with Saul. He may be clever in the way he conceals himself, and he was, but, as far as God's mind was concerned, it was all over with Saul. It is very solemn, for there is no escape when God orders a test; I am exposed and I cannot hide myself.

Now God will bring Samuel into this, and He does. I want to show how Samuel was right in principle; he was with God in principle, but not in actual fact

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in detail in following out the thing to its completion. I have great respect for a man who has good principles, but principles are not all. Samuel set out the principles in most striking language. He came to Saul, we are told, and Saul met him, with all the glamour of a victorious general -- he had carried out the mind of God, he said. Oh but, Samuel says, listen -- that is not just so. You will observe in verse 13, "Samuel came to Saul; and Saul said to him, Blessed art thou of Jehovah". How one is apt to be caught by that sort of thing. What a brother that is! He is victorious, and he is making much of another brother. "Blessed art thou of Jehovah", he says, "I have fulfilled the word of Jehovah;" that is what he says. Is Samuel going to be deceived? Am I going to be deceived? Dealing with evil is the most difficult of all things, discerning the roots that are at work and the skill with which men who are experienced in evil conceal, or endeavour to conceal. Samuel is not caught with that; he is not the man to be flattered, thank God: he is a man of God. He negatively had put off the old man in the attitude of his mind, and particularly the old man in Amalek. There are many of us who will put off the old man in Amalek and retain the old man in Saul; but it is the same old man; the old man in Saul is the same old man as in Agag. Samuel slew Agag, but he did not slay Saul; I mean to say he did not slay him in the principle of it: he mourned for him. But, as I said, he goes over the principles. Time will not permit me to say much more as to that, but those who are familiar with the chapter will know how he points out in prophetic language that to obey is better than sacrifice. He set out in beautiful poetic language a word directly from God at the moment covering the principle. The great principle covering the chapter is that -- "obedience is better than sacrifice, Attention than the fat of rams. For rebellion is

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as the sin of divination, And selfwill is as iniquity and idolatry". So he says, "Because thou hast rejected the word of Jehovah, He hath also rejected thee from being king;" it is a settled matter. Samuel is perfectly clear as to the principle. A man like that would set out the thing perfectly in a Bible reading; the whole thing would be as clear as noonday. The principle as to what Amalek means, and how rigid God is in dealing with him; yet, you see, Saul is not dealt with except in principle. The speaker says, God has rejected thee from reigning and He has another, He has a neighbour; that is the new man. He had some idea of the fact that Jehovah had selected another, and in language that is excellent, the principles are set out perfectly. Well now, Samuel has stated the principles and Saul says, "I have sinned". Well, you say, that settles the matter. He says it twice too, but why? Because he is caught; he is exposed, and he cannot help it. He should have said that at the beginning. But, you see, the crown was involved, the position was involved. I must retain that, and I must go to great length to retain that. But it is no question of a moral state of things, of self-judgment in his soul at all. He says to Samuel, "I have sinned; honour me now, I pray thee, before the elders of my people" -- you see the kind of man he is, thinking of himself -- "honour me now", he says -- not honour God, but honour me. And he goes to this extent that he catches hold of the garment of the prophet and tears it: that is the kind of man he was. Why should I do anything like that? Were I a humble man I would never attempt to act like that toward a brother; but it only emphasises the actual facts of the case. Samuel says, God has taken the kingdom from you, He has rent it: the matter is settled.

Well now, Samuel is still mourning for Saul, and that is what I want you to see. The verse I read says,

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"Samuel saw Saul no more until the day of his death". He is not going to visit that brother any more; that is a settled matter. He has the right principle, the matter is settled, the mind of God is clear: he is the rejected man. But still I am hankering after that man; there is something there, there is a link between him and me. I am not going to visit him, but I am mourning about him. The Lord says, 'I am repenting about him; you are different from Me'. I am not with God. I am with God as to the principle, but not as to my feelings, and God says, 'I want you to be right in your feelings -- I want you. I do not want a man mourning for a man I have rejected, I want you to be with Me in My feelings'. Well, that is how the matter stood. God says, I am repenting about it. When God says that, there is something very peculiar, it is a question of His feelings. He did not like to give up Saul, but He did give up Saul, and it is a finished matter; He will never have recourse to him again. These finished matters are very rare amongst us, dear brethren. Finishing things is a great idea in Scripture. So the next chapter opens with this, "How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel?" He says, 'You know you are not with Me in this'. How God must have felt that, speaking to such an honoured servant of His. But it is a voice to the most outstanding brother there is, how we may be out of accord with God because of personal predilections in regard of brethren, some personal link that holds us together, and we are not with God in it. Now He says, "Go". He must be obedient, for he had already established the principle of obedience in chapter 15. Obedience is a mark of the new man, and Samuel had the principle; he had put off the old and put on the new, in that sense, but not in his feelings. God says, "Fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse, the

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Bethlehemite; for I have provided me a king among his sons". The Lord says, as it were, 'I will tell you who he is when you get there'. Now that is a very humbling thing, that God does not trust you now. He says, 'I cannot trust you to go by yourself and get the king I want; you have not come to the new man in your feelings; I will go with you, it is too important to be left to you'. I am referring to Samuel, dear brethren, because he sets out an example for us from God. He has to suffer for me that I might learn, not only right principles, but right feelings, that the new man should be entirely embraced by me, so that I know him when I see him in whomsoever it may be. In whomsoever it may be, I know the new man, if my feelings are right. Samuel went to the house of Jesse, and presently the sons of Jesse come up, and sure enough, he made a mistake at once. He thought Eliab was the new man; but there was not a trait of the new man in him. God had said, 'I will not let you go alone; you are not the one to go and see a brother or sister to be included amongst the people of God, your feelings are not right, you cannot be trusted'. Now I want to be trustworthy; we need to be trustworthy, dear brethren, in the carrying out of the divine administration. Times are difficult; Scripture says, "Difficult times shall be there", and they have come, and it is a question whether I can discern the new man, not only the principles but the feelings and the practical concrete characteristics of the new man. I have them in myself and I discern them in another. It is as sure as possible, if I have any special friendships or personal links with the brethren, I shall miss it; I shall be apt to be governed by these in visiting that person. I need to be free of that. God says here, 'I cannot trust you, I shall have to go with you'. Of course He goes with us at all times; but He cannot trust Samuel. He says, 'Do not name him, I will name him -- it is an important

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matter'. This matter of kingship is too important to be left in the hands of a man who is held in his affections by the man God has rejected. So Samuel says, "Surely Jehovah's anointed is before him". Jehovah says, 'He is not before Me; you are making a mistake, and the secret is you have been held in your affections by the man I have rejected'. And all seven sons pass before him, and the word as to each is, "Neither has Jehovah chosen this one". Samuel is adjustable, thank God! and it is very beautiful how readily he comes in for adjustment. He is gradually coming into the idea of the new man, and presently the new man appears before him, the most beautiful man as the Spirit of God presents him to us; he is ruddy, of beautiful appearance, and he is beloved -- there he is. Samuel knows him, but still God says, I do not trust you with that -- "Arise, anoint him; for this is he". So, dear brethren, it is a most important thing to learn to keep the right man before us in the administration of the things of God. Not only that the person is nominally christian, or even a true christian, but can I see the characteristics of the new man? That is how the matter stands. And it says, "The Spirit of Jehovah came upon David;" that means, that kind of man, he is beloved. God says, 'I commit Myself to a man who is spiritually lovely'. Samuel had not been doing this, but he will do it hereafter -- and he did, he stood by David.

I go on to Chronicles to show you how all Israel is brought into this, for one great thought in christianity is not only that there are leaders, prominent men and women, but that all are to be brought into the thing. "Leaders led in Israel", and, if that is so, Israel will fall into the lead, and they become right, they see with God. So what you get in this chapter is how David became very attractive. In the first part of the chapter we see how people came to him in certain positions, first at Ziklag, then in the

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wilderness, and so on, and how Judah came to him. That is how the Spirit of God comes in when the saints are moving in this way, taking up positions in relation to Christ that in themselves are not inviting. The wilderness is not inviting, but they came to him there. As the history goes on, Benjamin and Judah came to David, and the Spirit of God came upon Amasai; that is, we have God coming into the gatherings of His people, the Spirit of God coming upon someone and making it perfectly clear that David is the man. You can look for that, dear brethren, in crises, that God will come in at some point and make it quite clear where He is and who is the right man; that is, when conditions are right. So they say, "Thine are we David, And with thee, thou son of Jesse: Peace, peace be to thee! And peace be to thy helpers!" So the position is clear as the noonday.

Then we have the position of the tribes that came to David, and that is what I want to finish with, so that I might bring you all afresh into this great matter of the new man, so that there is no doubt in your mind as to what is meant, that you are thoroughly on that side. So in the second part of the chapter you have characteristics; each of the tribes has his own distinctive feature, and I would particularly allude to the Aaronites, the tribe of Levi. In all this part of the chapter, you will observe there are no names given to us but those of these two men, Jehoiada and Zadok. Zadok is said to be a young man; he is one of the most distinguished men in Scripture, so much so that God carries him right through into the millennium and he is to be the priest there. He represents the divine thought in youthfulness and valour in his day, and God carries him right through -- the priesthood in that day is to be the sons of Zadok. I think it is a very great thing to get a long-distance outlook in divine things and to see how God carries things right through; that what I am going on with

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now is what will be then; it is not local to time or place, it is going on. Then Jehoiada -- he is not said to be young; he is a priest, he is the leader of the Aaronites. We must have a man like this, the most spiritual man, as the name would indicate, of the priesthood; he is the leader of it. How important to get a man like that, and then a young man like Zadok; as he is called in verse 28, "a valiant young man, and his father's house two and twenty chief men". You can understand that youthfulness is not everything in this matter, there is more than youthfulness in this man, he has twenty-two captains with him. There must be some superiority beyond youthfulness in this young man; he has intelligence, that is "renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that created him". This young man will converse with you, and he will converse with you about the most exalted things; these captains are not minors, they are men of experience and dignity, and they are with him. But we have the youthfulness beautifully balanced in this young man; he is the only young man mentioned by name of these myriads that are spoken of as having come to David to Hebron. Why is that? It is undoubtedly to call attention to the new man. Jehoiada is called the prince of Aaron; he surely has knowledge according to God, for "the priest's lips should keep knowledge". His lips should keep it; not only that he has knowledge in his mind, but in his lips. A remarkable thing! He is always ready to give the mind of God: he keeps the knowledge in his lips. Of course he has it in his mind, but he is ready. We read of a great priest called Ezra who was a ready scribe. It is very important to be ready when you hear of questions coming up, difficulties to be solved. This man is the leader of the Aaronites, that is the particular class of the family of that kind, the sons of Aaron. So that I think, between Jehoiada and Zadok, you have the balance

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of the new man, I mean the character of the new man. It is what is formed in us, not only what is put on in our minds -- and the idea of putting on is, I think, a matter of mind -- but the thing itself that you put on is to work out so that others can see it, and as soon as they see you they discern you.

Then we get other tribes, such as the children of Issachar, men who had understanding of the times; that is a trait of the new man. I do not apprehend that that is mere political times, or international times, or business times, but divine times. I attach no importance to anything but divine divisions of time. When Daniel gets the word from Gabriel it is a question of divine times: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people;" that is a divine time that passes over myriads of years of human time. It is not a question of what is current in the newspapers, beloved friends. Statesmen may scan the newspapers to know what they ought to do, but Issachar "had understanding of the times, to know what Israel ought to do", that is, what the saints ought to do -- and that is the whole matter with God. The times of the nations, as they are called, are just appointed of God in relation to the saints. When the matter of the saints is finished, the times of the gentiles finish too; it is all a matter of the saints. What happens to the people, that is, Daniel's people, to make an end of sin and to bring in righteousness and holiness, and Issachar would understand, and God would have us, beloved brethren, to understand the times in that sense and know what Israel ought to do. As I said, the different tribes have different traits. Then we are told, in verse 38, "All of them men of war, keeping rank in battle array, came with a perfect heart to Hebron to make David king". This is an appeal to everyone, and that is what I had in mind, a perfect heart, at Hebron; it is not simply David, but David at Hebron. We often speak

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of Hebron and what enters into it from the spiritual point of view. Absalom may take it up later, but of course that is imitation. Imitation is one of the most potent things we have to contend with. David was here: spiritually it is Christ in Colossians. The great thought in Colossians is Christ, and not only Christ in heaven but Christ among us -- the mystery in Colossians is Christ among us. Think how blessed that is, to have Christ among us, not far away, but among us. Well, that is David at Hebron, and all Israel came with a perfect heart, even across the Jordan, that is, men who had not wanted to go into the land at the beginning, an hundred and twenty thousand of them came with a perfect heart, with all kinds of instruments of war, to make David king. That is what is going on; God is aiming at affecting every saint on earth at the present time. We have understanding of the times. It says of Daniel that he understood by books; we understand by books, but then there is instinct needed and waiting on God in these matters, so that we discern how things are; we discern that the time of translation is near, and we want every saint with us. Is there a lover of Christ who does not want every saint with him when he goes to heaven? I do not think so. Every saint who loves in the Spirit, is in the unity of the Spirit and he wants every saint to go with him to heaven when he goes, and he wants every saint now to know the life that now is. They are coming from all parts of the territory of God to Hebron to make David king; David is the central point. He is typically Christ, as the scripture I read says, "Christ everything". You hear these people talking as they wend their way, 'David', 'David', 'David'. I look at any one of them: he is occupied with David; David is reflected in him; he is thinking of David and Hebron; Christ is everything to the mind and in all. He is in every heart; every heart is a lover of David, "with a perfect

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heart", perfect unity of the Spirit to make everything of David. What a scene it is! I think, dear brethren, you will conclude that these chapters help us as to this matter of putting on the new man. The chapter in Colossians goes into specific things, but the Old Testament brings out the thing more clearly. It helps us in persons to see what is meant by putting on the new man in detail, so that you are thoroughly in the matter, so that, if anyone sees you, it is Christ in you. "No longer live, I" says the apostle, "but Christ lives in me; but in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith".

May God bless the word.

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THE ASSEMBLY -- HOW IT IS KNOWN AND HOW IT FUNCTIONS IN LATTER TIMES

Matthew 18:19, 20; 2 Timothy 2:19 - 22; Revelation 3:7 - 13

J.T. In order to make the matter in mind clear I will allude to Exodus 12. We have often noticed these verses but I thought I would call attention to them as helping us in this subject: "Speak unto all the assembly of Israel" (verse 3) and "the whole congregation of the assembly" (verse 6). Mr. Darby's note reads, 'Assembly' is the congregation looked at as a moral whole, a corporate person before God ... 'Congregation' ... is, I apprehend, the actual subsisting congregation composed of all its members.

We are to see that the assembly exists in the moral sense right to the end and that, though the actual members of it may not be available always, are not indeed, in our times -- the idea of the assembly remains and the members of it are included in the word 'congregation'. All are taken account of in this early mention; and so they are in Acts 2, "all together in one place", all there. That is the great general thought that the idea of the assembly and of the congregation synchronised at the beginning and doubtless continued for a considerable time. The members would gradually disappear; did, as a fact; they were not all available, but the assembly as a moral thought functioning without all the members continued, and does continue, only that the general failure obscures it: so that the verses in Matthew 18 help us to identify members in character, that is "two of you", persons with a known status or character, and then "two or three". And then 2 Timothy 2 shows how these prove themselves as the general failure existed, "The firm foundation of God stands, having this seal". The foundation has

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the seal, and the concrete thought is in verse 22 where we have persons actually characterised by following righteousness, faith, love, peace; and these obviously afford scope for the Spirit to work out assembly conditions, however small, outwardly despicable, but still conditions are there. And then in Philadelphia we have the formal recognition by the Lord Himself of assembly characteristics, which we shall see as we go on.

C.A.M. I was wondering if you could apply the idea of calling or forming the assemblies in Ecclesiastes, as a sort of principle of working that out, taking account of individual members generally you would have the assembly before you. (See note to Ecclesiastes 1:1).

J.T. The passage in Ecclesiastes would apply at the beginning and does now, but its application is more difficult in these days because it has got to allow for the obscurity, for many are not available. The thought is to be maintained in spite of very great obstacles. That is our position, how to recognise the use of the word 'assemblies'. Today we have not got the word 'congregation' -- it appears only two or three times in the New Testament, but we have the idea of assembly in 1 Corinthians 11:18, the saints viewed as coming together in assembly, which does not require the whole, it is the character; but we have the whole assembly mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14:23, all the members in the place.

Ques. Is the character of the assembly weakened by the fact that we have not the congregational idea today?

J.T. The thought stands. The non-use of the word in the verses read in Matthew and in 2 Timothy and in Revelation (where the word is only used in the local sense), would cause us to avoid using it in any official way now. It is more what we understand and carry in our minds.

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A.F.M. Do not you have the congregation in 1 Corinthians 14:23? "If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place" -- is that what is in your mind, the congregational thought?

J.T. That is what I spoke of -- I called attention to that verse.

A.F.M. And then chapter 11: 18?

J.T. It does not say there the 'whole assembly'. It is in assembly, the character. Any number of christians may be so regarded. Verse 20 reads, "When ye come therefore together into one place".

A.F.M. Do I understand your thought about chapter 14 that the apostle, having the whole in mind, is calling attention to the distinctiveness of each member?

J.T. I thought so, and he uses the word 'whole' in verse 23: "If therefore the whole assembly come together". The whole, that is the whole local assembly, that would be the idea of the congregation, that is every member in the place, but in verse 18 of chapter 11, "When ye come together in assembly", that is the character of the thing. I do not know whether I am saying what is clear.

C.A.M. I think so. When you are looking at the saints in their character as forming the assembly it seems to convey the thought of unity, whereas in chapter 14 there is a most marvellous variety.

J.T. Yes. Take New York, where we have so many gatherings. We all come together in assembly on Lord's day morning. It is the character of the thing, but we must never lose sight of the one assembly in the city, "When ye come therefore together in one place" -- the oftener the better. So chapter 14: 23, "If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place", when the unity and entirety of the assembly is recognised. They are all there, corresponding with Acts 2 when they were all together.

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R.W.S. Does that suggest that the number is not an unwieldy one? It is rather restricted -- "in one place".

J.T. It would seem so. However large, however many sub-divisions, the general unity is maintained by the fact that they are "all together in one place". We are not so many assemblies in one city although the word might be used, but the whole number of persons in the assembly is taken account of in chapters 11 and 14, so that we never lose sight of the whole.

A.F.M. Is the "ye" of verse 18 and the "ye" of verse 20, chapter 11, of similar value?

J.T. In verse 18 it is "when ye", not 'all', it is the character. That is, the meeting-room is not in view. Of course it must be there, but the point is we are all together in relation to one another in assembly. It is the character of the thing. In verse 20 "one place" is added without the word 'assembly;' any number of subdivisions might be recognised in that.

Ques. Would the "two of you" in Matthew 18, and "in assembly" be somewhat similar as far as the idea of character goes?

J.T. I think it is first to identify persons; there are such persons and they are identified in this simple humble way, in unity as to something that God can recognise. I would call that the basic thought. In our times, which Matthew 18:19 contemplates, you must have the testimony of these persons; there are many christians in the world, not all characteristically members, but there are some, and they are marked in this way that "if two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father". The thing is to be known. Two would be enough -- there are such persons in the

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world. The point is, they are not only 'christian' but those who are characteristically of the assembly, and if you have two of them you have the basic thought. And then there must be loyalty to Christ. Verse 19 is that they are united as touching anything that they shall ask. The Lord says, "It shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens". That is, you have the idea of character, so that they are marked off and recognised in heaven, and heaven has confidence in them, for He says, whatever they shall ask, not 'in my name' but "whatsoever ... they shall ask". That is the idea of unity before heaven and confidence in the persons. In verse 20 they are gathered together to the name of Christ. His name refers to the fact that He is not here and that it is that in which things are done.

B.C. Do you think the full thought of that is shown in Solomon's prayer?

J.T. Do you mean that what Solomon asked for was owned in heaven; what is in your mind?

B.C. You were speaking of the whole and the separate thought. Solomon assembled the elders of Israel and the people when the temple was finished.

J.T. Heaven shows there that it is pleased, "for the glory of Jehovah had filled the house of God". In Matthew 18:19 you have the same idea that there are two who are agreed -- persons in whom heaven has confidence and whom the Father recognises as agreed. I think the reference to Solomon is interesting because it typifies conditions. Heaven owned his prayer in filling the house. Here they are also owned but there is nothing public on earth. It is "to them". I only refer to this so as to bring out the identity of assembly material, how it comes to light, first in unity as to anything that is on their hearts, the Father owning it and answering and then, secondly, loyalty to Christ in gathering together unto His name. All other names are given up.

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-- B. Do you mean to convey that if two of us agree we have authority to act as using the authority of the assembly?

J.T. It is a matter of who we are -- two of you -- two of assembly character.

-- B. How do we reach this agreement?

J.T. Two of the assembly would, I think, be illustrated in such persons as Simeon and Anna. They had the interests of God at heart: they were in the temple. It is a question of two of you, persons of that kind.

A.R. The two in verse 19 are known in heaven, heard in heaven, gathering together "unto my name".

J.T. That is the other side of the position. Heaven comes in, not only hears, but "it shall come to them". The expression of the answer is in the presence of divine Persons.

C.A.M. That reference to Simeon and Anna is helpful; and so is the reference to Solomon's prayer. It had a far-reaching effect: it seemed to go right on to remnant days, in Daniel and Ezra and godly ones at the beginning of Luke, their eyes were all towards that wonderful place.

J.T. All that helps, because heaven would say, Daniel, that is one of them; how heaven saw that and answered him! He tells us in chapter 9 that Gabriel was sent to him; he was greatly beloved. Heaven knew that man.

-- B. It is not necessary then to have all the brethren in agreement in referring to any matter?

J.T. No, you are sorry you cannot get them.

Ques. Would the house of Chloe be "two of you"? They were united in showing Paul that there were divisions in Corinth.

J.T. You can understand that the godly souls in Corinth would come in under that head. I think that is right.

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Ques. Would you say that when the throne at Jerusalem was being usurped and David had to leave, there were certain men representing the "two of you" in principle, I mean Abiathar and Hushai?

J.T. They were in principle David's kingdom.

Rem. I was wondering whether these men, without removing from Jerusalem, would hold to the Jerusalem thought in the principle of it and thus be moving in the light of all that might have been at Jerusalem.

J.T. That is the basic thought. We have basic thoughts and then what is built on them. Here it is not the full thought, but certainly David's kingdom was there, you might say, in mystery, that awaited fulness which came in time. The first thing in this lesson is, I think, to recognise character, are there any "of you"? Heaven notices them and has confidence in them. The next is loyalty to Christ in their public movements. They gather together unto His name. It is an orderly setting out of the subject. The Lord contemplated latter times when He said, "Again I say to you". He had already been speaking of the assembly possessing administrative powers and then says, "Again", as if that position would not continue, "If two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask". It seems to me that He is beginning over again as to how the assembly is reached in the identification of two, not one but two. John would make it one person who loved Jesus, the Father would come to him, but Matthew in view of the working out of the thing publicly makes it two, and then two or three.

Rem. Matthew makes a lot of two but I suggest that we should all see the value of the word 'again'. I think unless something of what you are saying is understood that word again is practically meaningless. It emphasises the Lord's love for us today.

J.T. He contemplated our present position. In

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2 Timothy 2:19 you have the foundation: "The firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those that are his". The seal is that the Lord knows those that are His. The other side is, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity". Your mind is taken with the words 'foundation' and the 'seal' that is on it. It is an abstract thought so far, but it is a basic thought. It has unity in mind, it is a question of how the minds of the saints are drawn into the truth and how the assembly becomes workable, the seal affecting me so that I must withdraw from iniquity, knowing that the Lord knows all the members of the congregation, the congregation of the assembly, everyone that is in it, but the assembly is another thought, as Mr. Darby says, like a corporate person and it has an existence right there. That is a very important matter so that we reach it in this passage without naming it, in the fact that there are those who have pure hearts and follow righteousness, faith, love and peace.

-- E. So that if you have two there is something to build on. You would like to have four but the nucleus is there.

J.T. Yes, the basic thought, the idea of assembly material, and then the next verse shows it working publicly in loyalty to Christ. It has a foundation that is firm and it carries its own moral mandate with it. Of course there are many members, and love says, 'Where are they?' They are not forgotten, the Lord never forgets them.

J.S. There is no weakening of the foundation!

Rem. In Numbers 16 the position is attacked and the firmness of the position comes out.

J.T. On the principle of withdrawal. "Separate yourselves". If that is done the cloud takes charge of the whole tabernacle. The divine idea is maintained. As soon as you get persons moving, separating,

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you are in accord with the seal. I am not forgetting my brethren, but it is individual. The Lord has knowledge of every saint in christendom.

A.F.M. "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity". We do not separate in groups, but as the result of individual exercise.

J.T. Yes, that is the basic thought, and then in verse 22 you have workable material, so the assembly is worked out in broken times.

A.R. The features of the moral whole are maintained.

J.T. The moral whole is a most important matter. Referring again to the notes to Exodus 12:3, 6, the words might seem to mean the same thing. The translators of the Authorised Version did not grasp the idea, whereas Mr. Darby did, he had gone through the thing. The congregation is one thing -- the persons, and the thought of the assembly is another.

Rem. In Exodus 33, where the tent is pitched outside the camp every one that sought Jehovah went out. This corresponds with 2 Timothy 2.

J.T. There was scope outside for the Spirit and every one that sought the Lord was there.

Ques. Is the moral whole maintained in that setting?

Ques. Does not the thought of the corporate person fit in with 1 Corinthians 15? The whole person is there.

J.T. It is there in the sense of responsibility, yes, and separation is owned of heaven. You have workable material in 2 Timothy 2:22, two or three following righteousness, faith, love, peace. I believe that John 14 and Matthew 18 enter into that.

A.R. If you get a moral whole you are making room for the Lord and the Holy Spirit to be amongst us.

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J.T. The thought of the assembly comes into view, a working basis.

When we come to Philadelphia we see that working out under the Lord's eye. I think we should lay it well to heart that the idea of the assembly as a corporate responsible body is in view from the very outset in 2 Timothy 2, that is the foundation and basic thought, God's foundation. Not one person, it involves the whole and you move on that line, and then there are others, and the seal that the Lord knows those that are His.

-- E. And the gates of hades shall not prevail against it.

J.T. We humbly speak of that. We have no official status, but God recognises it and moves with us. In Philadelphia you can see the assembly as it were opening up like a flower under the Lord's eye. "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut, because thou hast a little power, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name ... . Because thou hast kept the word of my patience". The other, of course, is the public thing which we see around us: "Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not" (verse 9). The Lord has something under His eye which answers to the assembly in its entirety. Chapters 21 and 22 bring it out as a bride, and she is saying, "Come".

Rem. It is something like the end of the Song of Songs -- the assembly seems to change into the idea of the bride.

J.T. Ecclesiastes brings out the preacher. He does not minimise the difficulties. We must take account of the difficulties of the path, and even dissolution and death. There are a lot of things in the book of Ecclesiastes that help at the present time. The next book, by the same writer, is what the bride is to Christ.

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WATERS TASTED BY BELIEVERS

Exodus 15:22 - 25; Exodus 32:20; Numbers 5:16 - 18, 24; Judges 7:4 - 7

J.T. These four scriptures suggest waters that need to be tasted by us. The first alludes to judgment in a general way on account of sin; not any one person's sin, but sin generally. Then chapter 32 refers to our actual guilt, the actual guilt of the persons who are caused to drink, the consequences of the actual guilt, and what is applied; we are made to realise it. Then in Numbers it is what death is as before God. Death is the penalty of sin, not only death in a general way but as it is before God. Then finally we are tested as to the use of God's creatures, whether we can partake of them, and at the same time go on with the conflict involved in the testimony, whether we can use the creatures of God without interfering with our part in the conflict.

The brethren will gladly join in; these points are very practical. The first alludes to judgment. We are made to realise experimentally God's judgment of sin which Christ bore. We may taste it. He tasted death for every thing; we are to taste it too, not in any vicarious way, but from experimental knowledge, so that we might judge sin. It is not simply death, but death in the sense of God's judgment on sin, in which we all have part: "Death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned".

W.W. Why is the drink question raised first in the wilderness?

J.T. I suppose the drink is a test in an acute sense. The Lord takes account of it. The test is a very acute one. "Moses brought Israel from the Red Sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water. And they came to Marah, and could not drink the waters of Marah, for they were bitter; therefore

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the name of it was called Marah". That is the point in it, the bitterness of death as the judgment of God.

J.S-t. This is in the history of young believers here. New spiritual tastes have not been formed yet, and what used to be enjoyed in Egypt is given way to, but Marah arises and I make flesh suffer instead of gratifying it, and the appreciation of God's judgment falling on Christ makes Marah sweet.

J.T. I think that is right. The three days in the wilderness brings the need up. It is acquired taste. We are to learn how to taste and value what is of God -- "Taste and see that Jehovah is good".

A.E.L. Would it correspond with Romans 7 at all?

J.T. I think it does; Romans 6, too. It begins with the question of baptism, that is, I think, what is in mind, to come into correspondence with Christ's death. It was not an ordinary death, but death as a penalty for sin in its general character, in an extended way. Death has passed upon all men.

A.E.L. "Who shall deliver me out of this body of death?" is what I was thinking of.

J.T. Well, that is your own body, of course, what you are; but I think we have to begin with the idea of baptism. The Red Sea is baptism as a figure. Baptism is death in a sense, the Red Sea features it, but the question of our state is involved in taste. It is not simply sin working in us, but what the judgment is that God meted out to sin, in Christ, what that was, the kind of water that is involved, the judgment that the Red Sea typifies -- water in a very extended way.

A.E.L. This is the other side of the Red Sea, is it not?

J.T. The point is that there was a wall either side. They must have to do with it now, and taste the thing. A believer comes into the good of the death of Christ by faith. Christ bore the penalty, but what kind of a penalty was it? He tasted death vicariously for everything, but God would have me taste that.

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It is God's judgment as regards sin; we are not speaking of all this objectively, He tasted it.

A.E.F. The Lord Himself tasted the bitterness of death -- in John 19:28. It says, "Jesus ... that the scripture might be fulfilled, says, I thirst".

J.T. I do not know that that would be exactly the thought of Christ tasting death. He was tasting physical suffering. It was to bring out how real His humanity was. He went through it in a human way and felt everything that others could feel in that sense in the physical state of what He was enduring. Tasting death, I think, goes beyond that. He had to die. The point is to taste the waters of Marah; they are the same in principle as the waters of the Red Sea. What He underwent, we taste. We are brought into correspondence with Him, understanding experimentally what judgment of sin is, what a judgment is meted out in regard of it.

J.S-t. "Moses brought Israel" to this point; it is intended we should come to it and learn it.

J.T. Yes, Moses is typically the Lord here. Now it is deliberate; it is under divine authority that we should go through.

W.W. Do faith and divine teaching go along together as we are brought through the wilderness?

J.T. Faith takes you into this position, but not to be in it merely in objective truth. You are not going out of the world as you were before, but you taste what the judgment really meant, what Christ underwent. So you begin to build up a constitution in that way. You know what He thinks of sin.

Ques. Does the opening verse of Romans 6 show the need of going out of the world? Then we have the question of baptism raised.

J.T. "As many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death". That is the point, it is unto His death.

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W.W. You made an allusion at the conference to the teaching of death. Is this the way we first begin to learn it?

J.T. We see what it is. Death reigned from Adam to Moses. That is, from Adam to this time, the passage through the Red Sea. Christ has gone under it, tasted it as the judgment of God. We are to taste it after He has gone through it.

J.S-t. Is the thought that when the soul realises that the treatment of the flesh is painful, it suffers, for it wants these things, but as seeing what Christ suffered it becomes sweet?

J.T. Christ has been into it. Romans 6 is that we "have been baptised unto his death". Baptised unto Christ, baptised to the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then we are baptised unto Christ's death. That is the point in Romans 6, that we taste the thing. We reckon ourselves dead to sin; our old man is crucified with Him. All that we are entered into that. It is not at all objective, the thing has to be tasted, what it really meant to Him that we might be brought into correspondence with Christ. Moses "cried to Jehovah; and Jehovah shewed him wood, and he cast it into the waters, and the waters became sweet". This in a sense corresponds with the Red Sea. Jehovah showed Moses Christ. The wood was there but he had not seen that side of the matter before. Many do not see it; Romans 6 is to call attention to that side -- Christ died.

H.A.F. Does the tasting of the water help us as to the naming of it? "The name of it was called Marah".

J.T. That is the idea. It is called Marah; I suppose they called it that because they tasted it. It is a point that is made, before we get all the history, "Therefore the name of it was called Marah".

J.T-y. Do you think Naomi helps us, "Call me not Naomi -- call me Mara"? She had learned

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lessons of death in regard of her husband and two sons; the grace of Boaz would be the sweetness to her after the bitterness of the discipline.

J.T. That is good. Who of us has not had death rolled in as Naomi? She would have her name changed, but in accord with this passage. God shows us Christ in a new way -- Jehovah showed him the wood. Some think it is the cross, but it is not the cross, it is Christ. He has been there.

J.S-t. It would answer to, "Are you ignorant that we, as many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death?" (Romans 6:3). We see the value of His blood, but may not have seen this.

J.T. God showed them something more. In one instance after another we have Christ brought before us, phases of His death; we do not see it at the start. He cast the wood into the waters. It does not say Jehovah told him to do that; Moses acts intelligently. When Christ is shown in that way, he knows what to do. As soon as you get light you know what to do. God causes us to see a thing, we move accordingly. He cast it into the water, as if Moses understood that it happened to Christ. "The waters became sweet". With us, in truth, it is that we are changed. The work of God operates in us according to what is presented to us. Naomi, as has been said, accepts that. She is to be called Mara, because she was experiencing the thing.

J.T-y. Is Romans 6 the bitter waters and Romans 8 the sweet?

J.T. Well, quite. What follows is, "There he made for them a statute and an ordinance; and there he tested them". Young believers come into things as in Romans 3, 4 and 5, but now what have you come into, and how has it been effected? We learn something.

W.W. Is it so, that until we have tasted of it in this way we will not desire to be called Mara?

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J.T. The name would be out of place unless you have tasted the thing. Every christian is brought to it at some time. We may shrink from it and of course not drink it, and fail in the experience of apprehending Christ. But if this is accepted -- and there is such a thing as fixed principles of God, of which this is one -- what is bitter to you naturally takes on a different character altogether, and you gladly come into the idea of the boards of the tabernacle -- fit for the fellowship.

P.L. This is found, is it not, in "He that has suffered in the flesh has done with sin"? Peter confirms that side. Christ once suffered in flesh.

J.T. So that we live no longer to it, but live the rest of our time to God.

The next point is that I have actually had to do with something in opposition to God. In chapter 32 there is a gross sin against God in the people. Now we are dealing with something that we are personally responsible for, and God would teach us the consequence of that. We are enjoined, as little children, to keep ourselves from idols, but if we allow God to be displaced in our hearts He causes us to realise the consequences of that. Moses came to the camp and "he took the calf that they had made, and burned it with fire, and ground it to powder, and strewed it on the water" (I suppose a brook ran there) "and made the children of Israel drink it". What authority and power!

J.S-t. More serious here, his anger burned.

J.T. Very serious! No one escapes this matter.

Ques. Would it seem by that they had not the good of Marah?

J.T. They had turned away from God. God in His mediator is displaced in their hearts, so they make a calf. Moses "took the calf that they had made, and burned it with fire, and ground it to powder, and strewed it on the water". God sees to that. We

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come to it. If He is displaced in our hearts He will make us realise the consequence.

Ques. What does the golden calf suggest?

J.T. It is an idol. "They made a calf in those days", Stephen says. These were days of apostasy in which we are now. The thing was in their hearts, you know. Moses had gone, they said they did not know where he was, but in truth they did not want to know. The Lord's supper is to keep the Lord before us. "This Moses, the man that has brought us up out of the land of Egypt, -- we do not know what is become of him!" Certain appearances are kept up both in Aaron and the people, but they did not know where Moses was.

Ques. Has it a bearing upon current religion?

J.T. They say to Aaron, "Up, make us a god", (or gods. There is a plural thought showing it is completely in their minds. They want the full thing really -- we go the whole road) "who will go before us; for this Moses, the man that has brought us up out of the land of Egypt, -- we do not know what is become of him! And Aaron said to them, Break off the golden rings that are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them to me. Then all the people broke off the golden rings that were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. And he took them out of their hand, and fashioned it with a chisel and made of it a molten calf: and they said, This is thy god, Israel, who has brought thee up out of the land of Egypt!" Now look at that; they have already said Moses has done it. Now it is Christ; they are really displacing Christ entirely.

W.W. Would that be that we are using the truth for our own ornamentation?

J.T. That is right. Carrying on idolatry. It says Aaron fashioned it. They did not ask him to do that. He "fashioned it with a chisel". "They said,

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This is thy god, Israel, who has brought thee up out of the land of Egypt!" That is a course of religious assumption. "And Aaron saw it, and built an altar before it". He went the whole way. "And Aaron made a proclamation, and said, To-morrow is a feast to Jehovah!" We have got what we want, our own creed and the like.

B.W.B. We can understand Moses dealing with the calf, but why does he shatter the tables?

J.T. That is another thought, a question now of how Moses regarded the law. Why did he do it? We cannot blame him and yet we cannot justify him. Christ did not shatter the tables, He underwent the claims Himself; Moses could not do that. Why did he shatter them, could nothing else be done? We have just got to leave that. It is not a time to blame Moses, but a question of the state of the people. You put Christ where Moses was; the matter is settled because He was made a curse for us. Moses was ready to be blotted out; he interceded for them. What he did was to make them realise what they did. If He is to save us at all we must realise what the thing is. They are ready to give up what they should have kept for the tabernacle.

Ques. What is your thought about it being a calf?

J.T. Both here and in Jeroboam's case it was a calf, of special use in idolatry. Stephen says, "They made a calf in those days", so that from his point of view and the prophet's, from Amos 5:25, it would seem that God did not give them credit for anything.

Rem. It is a challenge to our hearts as to how we continue; they had had the covenant in chapter 19, "I have borne you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself".

J.T. He makes them to drink. He burned it with fire -- that would reduce it; then ground it to powder -- made it more soluble still, so that it could be drunk.

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It must enter into our inwards, and we realise there what we have done.

H.V.S. Is the apostle at Corinth grinding this powder?

J.T. Well, yes. We have to taste things. Whatever one is really personally responsible for, it is the question of having to taste what the consequence is as before God. They are made to do it authoritatively.

Ques. Would Deuteronomy 9 give you the peculiar suffering, the suffering of his spirit?

J.T. He speaks earlier of God being angry with him on their account, but here he is going through the thing; he is acting for God. There does not seem a voice lifted up against him. What power a man has when he stands up with God against evil, going the full length of the mind of God as to evil! You taste the thing and then deal with it.

E.C.F. Tasting the thing is the only way to recovery.

J.T. That is what comes out. God would have you to realise what you are guilty of. It is not simply a superficial confession.

In Numbers 5 we have the trial of jealousy. Here the water is called holy. Not waters of the Red Sea, not the waters mixed with ashes of the calf, but holy water, water actually called holy. This is the only place, I think, where you get the expression in Scripture. Rome has it, but it is only used here in Scripture; the water is mixed with the dust of the floor of the tabernacle -- what is before God. There was no actual floor in the tabernacle; so that it was the dust of death. It is death in that peculiar position. Wherever the tabernacle was set up God was there. As entering into us it will either produce a curse or exonerate us to bear fruit for God. There is no escape in this at all. The sin is supposed to have been done secretly, but there is no escape. God is reminding us that our sin will find us out.

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P.L. Does the Nazarite govern this chapter?

J.T. That is the idea. The holy water is intended to cleanse us for service. Added to that is the dust of the tabernacle -- what death is before God.

Rem. That makes it bitter.

J.T. Well, that is the thought. If she is innocent, there will be fruit for God, but the history of the assembly shows that she is not innocent -- the whole body, generally speaking, is unfaithful.

W.W. Where does this operate now?

J.T. I think where God is operating, the priest is active. If anyone is clear there is something for God, "If the woman have not been defiled, and be clean, then she shall be clear, and shall conceive seed".

Ques. Is it progressive? Does it involve the development of divine sensibilities?

J.T. I think so. The assembly is in mind, set up here as a chaste virgin to Christ.

J.T-y. Do you think the end of John has any bearing, where the Lord tests Peter as to his affection, "Lovest thou me?" Peter says, "Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I am attached to thee". He comes through the test and then gets his commission.

J.T. He appeals to the Lord twice: "Thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I am attached to thee". There are two words for 'know', and the last time it is objective, that is, Thou hast a testimony: Thou hast seen that I love Thee. Peter is calling the Lord's attention to something in him that showed that he loved Him. If a brother is under discipline, he may say, The Lord knows my heart; others do not, but the Lord does. And if there is testimony he can appeal to that. Let there be some evidence that you love the Lord.

H.V.S. The woman is not afraid of the water.

J.T. It is not optional; she is brought before the priest. We are set up again to bear fruit for God.

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Rem. Although christendom at large is disloyal, there is that which is loyal.

J.T. How solemn it is for the whole body -- "I will kill her children with death", she will not repent.

W.W. Do we have to taste amongst us the working of these things, in relation to what is local, where we live?

J.T. Going through the thing in the sense of travail. Someone says, 'This is a sorrowful thing that has happened, God will bring something out of it;' but in truth it is better to say, 'I am going to bring something out of it'. The travail means what I bring out of it, what the brethren bring out; whether there is a result. God brings it in as we feel things.

Rem. We can only do that as we go through.

J.T. In 1 Samuel 4:22 Phinehas' wife died, but she said, "The glory is departed from Israel, for the ark of God is taken".

P.L. Is the issue in Numbers 6 the Nazarite? You have the brightest and best beyond all that God commanded. One would speak pre-eminently of Christ.

J.T. And the blessing is secured at the end.

Rem. So you could only reach chapter 6 by facing the exercises of chapter 5. The priest sets the woman before Jehovah.

J.T. It is a question of what happened in the camp really. The chapter begins with that, "Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by a dead person: both male and female shall ye put out; outside the camp shall ye put them, that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell". That is what is in mind all through, things are to be kept right. We have the dust of the floor of the tabernacle, and in Numbers 6:23 - 27 Jehovah says to Moses, "Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless

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the children of Israel: saying unto them, Jehovah bless thee, and keep thee; Jehovah make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee; Jehovah lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them".

The passage in Judges 7 is to call attention to the use of the creatures of God -- how we use them, whether we use them for personal satisfaction and gratification, as an object, or just as a divine provision for us. Well, let us go on in the conflict. That is, we deny nature, mere natural gratification in the use of the creatures of God, and go on in the conflict.

Rem. Gideon was in the good of this, "Look on me, and do likewise".

J.T. There is no evidence that Gideon had any regrets that the number was reduced. He was in keeping with the test -- he would say, 'I know my men can be trusted, they will not turn aside, they will keep on in the testimony;' so that they went on their own.

P.L. The acid test as to the conflict will come to light in a very simple test.

J.T. Yes, in so many ways. Getting married, going into business, buying a business -- in so many ways we show where we are. Is it just an object to many?

J.S-t. It has been said, If you lap like a dog your eyes are never off the conflict.

J.T. The refreshment is there, you give thanks for it, but your god is not your belly, you are thinking of the testimony of God, you go on with it. Conflict requires spirituality.

P.L. Would it be like the difference between Timothy and Mark? To Timothy Paul says, "Drink no longer only water, but use a little wine on account of thy stomach and thy frequent illnesses". "But youthful lusts flee".

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J.T-y. Is it in your mind, Mr. L., that "No one going as a soldier entangles himself with the affairs of life, that he may please him who has enlisted him as a soldier"?

P.L. Quite so!

Ques. Is that why they are called men? They are previously spoken of as the people, but the three hundred are spoken of as men.

J.T. "By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you".

P.L. Do you think there is something of force in the word 'three'? It is like the idea of death and resurrection entering into the warp and woof of our spiritual being.

J.T. How prevalent the idea of three is in Scripture! I believe it runs in every book.

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THE LORD'S SERVICE CONTINUED TO THE END

Revelation 3:14 - 22; 1 Samuel 7:15 - 17

What is in mind in reading these scriptures is to show how the Lord continues until the end of the dispensation in which we are, such service as may be required. Outward appearances might seem to indicate that He has failed in this or relinquished His charge, as I might say, but the passages I have read show that the Lord continues throughout. Of Samuel it is said, as I read, that he judged Israel all the days of his life, and yet for a considerable part of his life Saul reigned. Now what I have to say requires that I should touch on the Lord's judicial service as well as His direct service to His own whom, as it is said, He loved to the end. We have to consider that the Lord has His own and that they continue to the end, that His love remains for them peculiarly until the end: He "loved them to the end". But their history, that is the public history of the assembly, shows that at times they were found sorrowfully mixed with what was not His own, and so it is today. So that, in view of such mixture, the Lord has had to resort to judicial service; not indeed that it is not the service of love, because it is, it has His own in mind -- what He would be to all indeed. The blessing of Esau, as over against the blessing of Jacob, shows that Esau came in for favour as typical of those who may not be in themselves regarded as the Lord's own. So the Lord has to take on, as I have said, a judicial service, and this is quite compatible with love. Indeed we read of a rod of iron used, not only by the Lord Himself, but by the overcomer in Thyatira, and yet it is not to destroy the nations. A rod of iron might seem to be for destruction, but it is not so; it is a question of severity because of the state of things.

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So that the overcomer is to shepherd the nations with that rod. The nations are not to be annihilated as in the days of Joshua. Some of them will be, of course, but in the abstract they are not to be annihilated. The type is rather David who subdued the nations with great severity at times, but still he subdued them with that method. So the Lord Himself in the future, shepherds the nations with a rod of iron. They will need strong firm handling, but still they are the nations to be blessed; the blessing of the nations was announced to Abraham, and the blessing will come about. It has arrived at us now, we come into it by the gift of the Spirit, but the nations themselves will be blessed as nations. "The nations shall walk by its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory to it" (Revelation 21:24). They will contribute to the heavenly city. But I am speaking now of severity as being quite compatible with love; indeed more than that, it is love, because of what has to be done, because of the state of things. And so in the last of these addresses to which we so often and rightly refer, the address to the Laodiceans, we have this same principle of severity in service. The Lord is presented to the bondman John in judicial garb, not in the sense of being attractive personally. When He was inaugurating this wonderful period, He presented Himself, we are told, living -- that is the beautiful side, "white and ruddy", He presented Himself as attractive to His own, living after He suffered, the suffering One but now alive. Here He does speak to John as living; He lays His right hand on him to infuse, as it were, the spirit of life into him for the service that was now opening up to him. John needed that; but the general appearance of the Lord is that of a judge, a judicial person clothed with a garment down to the feet and girt about the breasts with a golden girdle; His hair like

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wool and His feet as fine brass, and so forth, and His voice like the voice of many waters. It is impressive, and yet He is about to serve. There is a girdle, a usual sign of service, but service by One whose love is driven back; He is not able to love freely, but still the love is there. So the apostle says, "Our mouth is opened to you, Corinthians, our heart is expanded" (2 Corinthians 6:11). That is, there is a change, but before that he was restrained in seeking to serve them. And that is often so, dear brethren, at the present time, for all services such as this should take on the character of Christ's service. What are they if they are not Christ's service? The service is carried on mediately by this and that one as He pleases, otherwise of what value would it be? So He is presented in a judicial garb, and as the Son of man, not the Son of God -- that is a term that denotes much in the way of affection and glory. He does speak of Himself as the Son of God to Thyatira, because there was interference with His rights in the house, as I apprehend. But all judgment is given to Him because He is Son of man, and we may expect the utmost sympathy and consideration; although He has to act judicially, He will not fail to be as considerate as possible, and the chastisement or judgment will be as lenient as possible.

Well now, in speaking thus, I have to refer to His comings, for His judicial service requires that He comes Himself; so He, on three occasions, speaks about coming to the assemblies. Singularly enough He is not said to have come to Smyrna, a church against which He has nothing to say; nor is He said to have come to Philadelphia, an assembly against which He has nothing to say but has rather to approve. We might have expected He would come to these rather than to those He threatens to come to, but it is, dear brethren, just because of what I have been saying, that He is dealing judicially, not in the direct

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expression of love. Were He entirely occupied with those who love Him, it would be to those He would come, as we get in John 14:21, "He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me; but he that loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him". There He is dealing directly with those who love Him and those whom He loves. But here He is dealing judicially, and instead of coming to those against whom He has nothing to say, He comes to those against whom He is obliged to say much. First, after saying a good deal to the assembly at Ephesus, He says, "I am coming to thee, and I will remove thy lamp out of its place, except thou shalt repent" (Revelation 2:5). It is a question of judicial service, not to rob the assembly of everything, but to remove the lamp and, of course, in principle that was taking away from that assembly its proper primary status as set up under Paul. A most solemn thing, dear brethren, that, if the Lord finds conditions in an assembly or a meeting that are displacing Him, if love is on the wane and disappearing, that is the threat, "I am coming", He says. But it is not what we call coming into an assembly to serve in it as its Head; it is coming judicially, a most solemn matter, and so it is that that assembly loses, as it were, the franchise; assembly conditions, the chief of which as based on righteousness, is love for Christ and love for one another, being wanting, what is there save that the Lord should take away its assembly status? Much could be said on that line, but I am only touching on the conditions in relation to the Lord's service to the end. He also deals with Pergamos similarly; He says, I will come to you too, but it is not to fight against the assembly exactly, but to fight against certain ones in it; this is another matter, that there may be that. He has much to say in regard to this assembly, where it was and so on,

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but there were certain there that had the doctrine of Balaam and taught the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes; but He says, "Repent therefore: but if not, I come to thee quickly". The whole assembly has to take account of this; it was in their midst; whatever is in our midst in any gathering, whether with one or two or more, is the responsibility of all. But He says, "I come to thee quickly, and I will make war with them with the sword of my mouth". It is the word of God, a sure weapon against all such opposition. That is seen in Pergamos. How the Lord has served in that way, how He dealt with the terrible evil teachings that had their root at that time and have come down to us! The Lord has not been quiescent in the presence of all these things, nor is He ever, so as long as the Spirit of God is down here and there are those who answer in any way to Him. This service is going on and will go on to the end.

I pass over Thyatira, for He does not say there that He will come but He speaks of dealing with her at a distance, for the greatest distance had sprung up morally; a wicked woman cast into a bed as non-repentant! How could He come! He deals with her, but still there was a remnant. But in Sardis He says, "I will come upon thee", not 'come to thee;' that is another matter. Worldliness having crept in in such a way, with much light, not violent opposition as in Thyatira, but a worldly indifference which the Lord hates, worldliness setting in and indifference with it, He says, "I will come upon thee as a thief", that is as He comes upon the world, a very scathing way of showing the Lord's disapproval of worldliness and the indifference and deadness that go with it. He hates it, and He says, I will come upon thee as a thief. A thief does not come to the person he intends to do harm to, he comes upon the person suddenly. And then the letter to the Laodiceans which I have read shows how, in spite of all these things, the

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revival in Philadelphia being in mind, the assembly comes up in the Lord's mind; how refreshing it is to Him! He uses the pronouns 'thee' and 'thy'. How stimulating that is in the little gatherings here and there, in the smallness that marks us, to have the sense that the Lord is identifying us with the assembly! He comes in too, but He does not speak of that, for He is speaking about His judicial attitude -- and let us all be on our guard as to it. He may come into an assembly that is more or less right, but we cannot always say He comes in as Head; He may come in judicially to help us, to adjust us. Well, to the Laodiceans He says He has settled the matter. There is no virulent opposition as there was in Sardis against Him; it is lukewarmness, not exactly deadness, for there is plenty of pretence to having things, to knowing things. He says, It is a lukewarm state of things, a thing that is hateful to My taste. The allusion is to taste; it is the kind of thing that is most distasteful to Him; it is a most humiliating way of expressing His judgment. He says, It is all settled; I am about to spue you out of My mouth. But, in the meantime, He is jealous over His position on the Father's throne, and that must be kept clear that there is no change in the dispensation in spite of all these things. This is a great matter in our service that we never lose sight of the dispensation; it is a fixed matter up to a point and it must not be interfered with in any way. Christ is there on His Father's throne; He is about to take His own throne and transfer the overcomers to Himself in that relation, when we shall have to do with Him in His service in regard of the nations, but to the last minute of that session the character of the dispensation must stand. Now, He says, I am about to spue you out of My mouth, but, in the meantime, I am ready to give you counsel. That is a beautiful thing, the Lord is in an attitude of grace towards such people, towards

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us all. Think of the Lord, after saying so much to them, saying, I am ready to give thee counsel, "I counsel thee". This is, as it were, going on now in this gracious ministry the Lord is giving throughout the world; the Lord is in this attitude and it is to maintain the dispensation until the end, that He will be whatever He can be in the exercise of grace. It must not cease, grace must reign until the last minute of His session on the Father's throne, for the term 'Father' denotes the character of the dispensation; it is God in grace and not in judgment. So that judgment is judicial, it is disciplinary; so He says to this assembly, "I rebuke and discipline as many as I love" -- the 'I' is emphatic, meaning that, so far as I am concerned, this is what I am doing, I discipline the persons I love. So you need not wonder if that happens. "I rebuke and discipline as many as I love". I have many things for you, and if you do not want them as a gift, I am ready to sell them to you; you must have them, your need requires that you shall have them, and while I am on the Father's throne, I am ready to serve you in that way.

That is how the matter is, and I want now to show briefly from 1 Samuel, the detail. I have alluded to the fact that the Spirit says of Samuel that he judged Israel all the days of his life. When he died and was buried all Israel mourned. It is the time of self-judgment, not in the sense of penalty always, but of judgment. Nothing is more needed in the way of service than judicial service; our so-called care meetings, eldership -- all enter into this. And so Samuel continued all the days of his life, even in the days of Saul, to serve Israel -- not a section of it, but Israel. Now what is to be noted both in Revelation and Samuel is that those who serve, especially the Lord Jesus in Revelation, are traced to their source, as it were; it is constantly brought out whence He is. He was challenged as to this in the days of His

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flesh, for He says, "Ye know whence I am". That is a great point made in Scripture as to whence the servants, the witnesses, are. So with Samuel, we have him from his source, his mother, his father, his circumstances, all remarkably depicted by the Spirit of God. He is not in the royal line, nor is he exactly a priest although he serves as a priest; he is Samuel the prophet, but he is the judge of Israel. These verses I have read bring out the details of his service, and what could be more interesting, dear brethren, than to read the accounts of the various visits of this great prophet of Israel, as he visited those cities! I am speaking to the young people for a moment, to arouse your interest in what the Lord Jesus is doing in this way, His judicial service, His service in love too, but how He comes to the place He has in mind to visit. What interesting history it would be if it could only be written down, all these movements of Jesus since Pentecost till now. What a book we should have; still it is all existent in the Spirit, so that it is spiritual history, and, after all, what else is of value but spiritual history? All that is in relation to heaven, it is kept in heaven; kept down here too in the presence of the Spirit; but what a volume it would be, dear brethren, if we only had it written down! Indeed it is written down, I may say, in these epistles, the Spirit of God opening up all that there is to hear in the ministry. The ministry of the Spirit in relation to any of these assemblies will give us to understand how the Lord came in and what He came for. As I was saying, I am speaking to young people now. In this book of Samuel we have at least two instances of visitations; the first alluded to is in chapter 9, and what comes out is that the spiritual discern that he is there. Saul did not, Saul was looking for asses and he was in distress, and he was concerned he could not find them in the particular places he visited, and the servant says, "Behold

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now, a man of God is in this city, and the man is held in honour; all that he says comes surely to pass". How did he know? Later we are told he came that very day. Now think, you young people, of the Lord coming to this borough where we are. Did you know it? He has been here; have you known it? Well, the young man, Saul's servant, did know it, and he says, What he says comes to pass; he knew about him. What I am saying now, dear brethren, is that you young people particularly may prick up your ears, as it were, and begin to think about this matter. Has the Lord ever been where I am? Did I know it? Well, this young man, the servant of Saul, says, There is a man of God here and whatever he says comes to pass; he will tell us what to do. What a fine young man that is! What encouragement to young people to get the mind of God, and be sensitive enough to know that in the very neighbourhood is the man of God. The Lord is actually there; and then the Spirit of God opens up the whole matter to us, as if to honour that young man. He knew better than Saul. The Spirit of God tells us that a man like Samuel used to be called a seer; now he is called a prophet. The thing has taken on greater dignity; he is now called a prophet; and other things happen, which I cannot dwell upon, but they go forward to the city and they meet some maidens coming down. Young sisters here ought to think of that. We have spoken of it before, but it is well worth speaking of again. These young maidens are accosted by Saul and this servant of his, who say, "Is the seer here?" They knew all about it; they knew where he came to and what he came for. He did not come for judgment that day, so far as they knew; he came for company, he came to bless, to sacrifice, and there were people invited. Think how beautiful that was; about thirty people, we are told, were invited to that meeting, and these young maidens can tell the coming

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king of Israel and his servant about the man of God, the seer, what he came for, what he does; and, he is just about to do it, they say; they knew all about it. And Saul and his servant go up to the city and they find Samuel. See how the Lord is on the alert for us if we are at all interested in matters, as if the Lord honours the knowledge of these young women; and there is Samuel ready to meet them, the first man they met, as you might say. Another side to the position of Samuel is given in chapter 16, that he might come in a judicial way and cause trembling or fear to the place. It is a very important matter that we should have the fear of God before us, and not speak too lightly about the Lord's coming to us, because He may come judicially and cause dread and fear. But it says he came peaceably. The allusion here is to a circuit; it is well known in this country, there are circuit judges, but the word has a great place in Scripture. The Lord entered into the temple, we are told, and looked round on all things, and went out to Bethany for the night. He came back again judicially, but He looked round on all things, not only on the persons, but on the things that are in the locality. Then, we are told in the same gospel, that is Mark's, that the Lord, in designating His brethren, looked round on them. I think it is very beautiful to be in a circuit where the Lord looks round, as if He looks round complacently. They were sitting around there, that is, He is the centre of things, He is everything and in all there. They are sitting round Him and He looked round on them, and He says, These are My brethren. Well, I touch on that, dear brethren, as entering into what I am saying. How beautiful it is to think of the Lord coming to us in this way, looking at us in this way -- those who do the will of God, He adds; (Mark 3:34, 35).

Well now, this circuit began with Bethel, that is the house of God. I was speaking of the judicial part

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of the service, but when the Lord has the house of God in mind and He will come to a place, for it says, He is here today, He will have something on the house of God. We may look for that; it is what comes out that indicates what He has in mind; how much could be said about that! He touches on it in the letters to the assemblies when He says, These things says the Son of God, that is, He is over the house. He is in the house as Son of God and He is very jealous about it, because He wishes to maintain family relationships according to God. Now we have been speaking today of how parents think of their firstborn, and think how much they will make out of him as shining in this world. Universities are becoming very traps for the people of God, to destroy them, to deaden their sensibilities and build them up in pride; for that is what these great seats of learning really have in mind, and it destroys the family thought, the spiritual family, that is, the taking away of the first to establish the second. That is what the Lord has in mind in the house. Of course He is concerned about His dwelling-place, like David, but He is concerned too to maintain spiritual family relations amongst us. Then, as you will notice, the second place is Gilgal. We may look for the meaning of that name, but the Spirit of God gives us the meaning of it in Joshua 5, and that is the thing to keep in mind whatever the actual thing may be, for there was more than one Gilgal, it is the thing we have to think of, for the Lord is coming in relation to the allowance of the flesh in that locality. If He comes with Gilgal in His mind, He will certainly say something about it and the terribleness of the allowance of the flesh which is always against God, "The flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh" (Galatians 5:17) and "It is not subject to the law of God; for neither indeed can it be" (Romans 8:7). So that the Lord, if He comes with that in His mind,

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will not fail to stress the need of setting the flesh aside drastically. And then finally he came to Mizpeh, and then finishes in Ramah for, if we have the family thought, that means the flesh must not be allowed, circumcision must be strictly enforced. Then the need is to watch, for you know the exercises of today will not do for tomorrow; the word 'Mizpeh' has that in mind, it is watchfulness, and it comes in, I believe, dear brethren, in view of the Lord's service to us. He says to Laodicea, "These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness". He is finishing the thing, and He would have us to be on the watch, because what we get today we may lose overnight; the thing is to watch what we have, to watch against the enemy too. If the Lord comes with that in His mind He will stress it in the ministry He gives. And finally, there is his own house, that is Ramah, he was on the up-line; and one feels that in these last days we are on the up-line -- thank God! Let us not turn downward, "The path of life is upwards for the wise" (Proverbs 15:24). There is really no safety for us, dear brethren, unless we go to the limit of the thing, the full thought of God, and that is moral elevation, that is where Jesus is, where He has His own sphere, where He opens up His heart to His own, and where the worship of God is carried on and maintained; for there he built an altar, as you will observe, unto Jehovah. May one not suggest that the Lord is working on these lines? He is working in relation to assembly service. The family relations must be maintained and the circumcision must be maintained, for the apostle says, "We are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and boast in Christ Jesus, and do not trust in flesh" (Philippians 3:3). And watchfulness must be maintained. "What I say unto you, I say unto all, Watch" -- watching in the protection of what we have and in the refusal of what is extraneous or evil;

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as Habakkuk the great man for high places, said, "I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower" (Habakkuk 2:1). Habakkuk comes in there beautifully, for it is a question of the high places of God and our feet on these high places and a song with stringed instruments. That is what the Lord is leading up to; it is unmistakable. May the Lord forbid we should turn back! Let us keep on with it, for there are great things for us as we keep on. Ramah leads up to the heavenly position and the translation of the assembly to be with the Lord for ever. So the altar is built there to Jehovah. There is the service of God maintained in its dignity, carried on in the power of the Spirit of God.

That is what I have to say, dear brethren. I commit it to you and ask the Lord to bless it to us.

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CHRIST EVERYTHING AND IN ALL

Colossians 3:11; Genesis 25:28; Genesis 48:17 - 20; 1 Samuel 15:35 (last clause); 1 Samuel 16:1

J.T. What is in mind is to say something about the new man, particularly how Christ is all, or, as it says in this verse, "everything, and in all". The scriptures read in the Old Testament are to show how the most spiritual of us may be occupied with the wrong man, with other than Christ; so that we may consider Isaac first, then Joseph and then Samuel. Isaac was head of the house, regarded as a patriarch, and yet he is occupied with another than Christ typically, whereas Rebecca is occupied with Jacob, who may be taken to represent Christ. And, in speaking of Christ thus as everything, we of course have to consider Him personally as in heaven, but also we have to consider Him characteristically as seen in the saints. Although Jacob is said to be a homely man, a man of the home apparently, dwelling in tents, Rebecca loved him, whereas Isaac loved Esau because of natural taste, he had taste for venison, so he serves to illustrate how we may deprive ourselves of the blessedness of the new man and of putting Him on, by indulging natural tastes. To have a taste for venison is, you might say, legitimate, but if natural taste rules one, it shuts out Christ, and if it be in a leading or prominent brother or sister it causes confusion and tends to interfere with the direct work of God. That is the first point. The second is that in Joseph we have preference for nature in the family, for the firstborn, which represents the family according to nature. Then thirdly, in Samuel we have preference in his mourning for one whom God had rejected, for one who is active in the service and may have failed of the power of God in his service. In all these cases confusion is brought

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in and the work of God directly hindered. Whereas over against that, as we have remarked, in Rebecca, we have one occupied with Christ; she knew about both sons from God and who was to have the lead, and she loved the right person, she loved Jacob. That is what is in mind. You can see how what I am remarking on is practical and affords a lesson as to what brings in confusion and hinders the work of God in our gatherings, and how it may be found in the most spiritual, in the most distinguished leaders, amongst us.

A.M.H. Will you tell us how you are regarding venison?

J.T. Well, it is spoken of here as 'loved'. First in the verse read it says, "Isaac loved Esau, because venison was to his taste" -- that is the first thing; and then he says later (Genesis 27:3), "Now, I pray thee, take thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field and hunt me venison, and prepare me a savoury dish such as I love, and bring it to me that I may eat". He is occupied with the venison as loving the venison. The word rather drops from its proper level when applied to mere food. Venison would represent just anything that ministers to our natural taste and influences us in our judgment of the brethren, or even in regard of Christ, blinding our eyes as to Christ. It may be viewed in a wide sense -- how many things there are that may be to our natural taste! Venison was to his taste, it suited him, that is, his natural taste.

F.I. He was more occupied with what was earthly than what was heavenly; whereas Jacob was on the heavenly side more.

J.T. That is what I was thinking. We have to view the two men as they run through the Old Testament to the last book where it is said that Esau was hated by God and Jacob loved. We see, therefore, that Rebecca was on the divine line, she had selected

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the right man; that is, she had selected Christ, the Man of promise and purpose. Evidently Isaac had gone back to the natural taste.

Ques. Would Romans 13:14 answer to it, "Do not take forethought for the flesh to fulfil its lusts"? Would taking forethought be ministering to the natural taste?

J.T. Quite so; we are enjoined against that.

Ques. Is the snare all the greater because these men loved the best in regard of the firstborn? A soul despises what is weak but loves the best in nature.

J.T. Yes. I suppose Esau represents the best in nature too according to what would be regarded as desirable, especially today in the world of sport, for he was a man of the field. It says, "Esau became a man skilled in hunting, a man of the field" -- he became that. There perhaps never was a time, even in the Greek days, when sports had such a place amongst men as they have now. They are made almost essential in ordinary employment as qualifying young people for society.

Rem. With the end in view of shutting out Christ.

J.T. That is the point. Not that Isaac himself was a man of the field or a sportsman, the point was that he loved venison; he loved Esau because, as it says, venison was to his taste, and Esau could procure it for him having acquired skill in hunting. The apostle said he had espoused the Corinthians to one Man, as a chaste virgin to Christ. We become defective if we set our eyes on the wrong man, that is the man of the field or the man that is naturally attractive, and that brings in confusion. This section (chapter 27) shows what dire confusion would have resulted had God not interposed sovereignly, how serious it is. God was compelled to interpose, and Rebecca and Jacob were forced into doing evil to secure what was right, but the real onus of the matter lay with Isaac.

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H.H. As typically a risen man his taste should have become altered.

J.T. Exactly. He of all men being a type of Christ risen from the dead should have developed spiritual tastes; but we are dealing now with Isaac, not as a type of Christ, but of a leading or distinguished brother, even a spiritual man, which in truth he was, able to bless when God helps in the matter. The blessing was irrevocable: "Blessed he shall be", he says. He knew, when brought round to the truth, that Jacob was the right man and supported him afterwards. But see what dire confusion would have resulted had God not come in.

Rem. It is remarkable that both Isaac's taste and his smell were at fault; later on it speaks of the smell of his garments, referring to Jacob.

J.T. I think he was right there. He says, "The smell of my son is as the smell of a field which Jehovah hath blessed". God comes in and puts the right man forward and then we begin to see and smell for ourselves. Although he had the smell of his clothes, it was "the smell of my son", that is, the one that was there.

E.S.H. Would Esau represent that element of obtaining things by natural ability, which ought to be discerned as not of Christ? Colossians brings Christ before us as Head, and thus we discern what is really of Christ.

J.T. He became a skilled hunter; he was not instinctively that, but he became that; his mind lay in that direction and he acquired the habit or skill of that kind of ability; whereas Jacob made no effort at all to put on anything; he does not need to. A spiritual man is what he is. Jacob was a supplanter of the natural from the start; he was characteristically a spiritual man and reflected Christ, so that he was what he was.

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Rem. Jacob did not become anything, and he is loved for his own sake -- there are no qualifications for loving Jacob.

J.T. No, he was what he was. We say that brother or sister is lovable; we do not say why, but he or she is that; it is very difficult to describe a lovable person. To see Christ is to see One who is infinitely lovable; no one could describe Christ save one who has seen Him, like the bride in the Song of Songs.

P.L. So we get Tychicus the beloved brother and Luke the beloved physician -- is that the lovability?

J.T. Quite so. No one could define a man like Tychicus or Luke, but Esau is within the range of anyone: he is just the natural man whatever his skill or acquirements.

F.I. This confusion you were speaking of came in by Isaac losing his spiritual vigour and sight -- his eyes were dim, the result of being held in regard of what is earthly.

J.T. Quite so, and you see he had the right thought in mind. He had the consciousness of ability to bless, but he was going to bless the wrong man, and how often it is that we elder brethren, prominent brothers maybe, as we are called, lay our hands on the wrong man, perhaps not in persons but in qualities in the saints. There are those who love certain persons because of their natural qualities, real christians, all of them, but loved because of natural qualities; that is a blinding thing and causes confusion. A man who has qualities I do not care for may be more spiritual, and God may be putting him forward, but I may be ignoring him.

Ques. Would Rebecca's choice in chapter 25 be influenced by her choice in chapter 24? She had refused to be held by the claims of nature in chapter 24, and in chapter 25 she loved Jacob.

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J.T. She has no hesitation about it, and she maintains that, so she now has Jacob before her. There is nothing said about his acquirements; it was what the man was; he had from the outset supplanted the man after the flesh. So we have to watch each other as to what our characteristics are, whether we love the new man. The new man is an exclusive thought; the description in Colossians is to make it exclusive: Christ is everything and in all. There is no room for Esau there. So that I think the consideration as to how even these three prominent distinguished servants were diverted from the right man is a solemn matter and should be a lesson to all of us. Jacob made no effort to be anything distinguished; he was just a plain man, but then there were prophecies about him going before. Rebecca had a prophecy about it, and he in time began to show that he was qualified and Rebecca knew it, and she loved him.

P.L. She never speaks of Esau as 'my son', as if she had in mind repudiated him. When referring to Esau, in speaking to Jacob, she calls him "thy brother;" while she refers constantly to Jacob as "my son".

J.T. Yes indeed, and she is ready to take on the curse even, "On me be thy curse, my son!" She is ready to take on any obligation in regard of him, the man after the Spirit. There are a great many of the Esau characteristics about, and they are quite lovable to many of us, but they are causing confusion and interfering with the work of God. It is not the new man, it is just the old, the good side of it of course, but just the old man.

F.I. Would you say that Rebecca loved Jacob not so much for what he was in himself personally, but for where he stood in relation to the thoughts of God?

J.T. That is the thought. It is the prophecy going before, as Paul says about Timothy, the mind of

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God indicated beforehand; but then the traits are coming out too, for even at the outset he supplanted the man after the flesh.

Ques. Would the expression, "Your love in the Spirit", have any bearing on this?

J.T. I think it would. It is the only time you get the Spirit mentioned in Colossians, love in the Spirit, and that is universal. They had love for all the saints in Colosse, but it was love in the Spirit; that is love for Christ, and the love for Christ is seen in love for His people as well.

Rem. In the old man we are told what was there, all the best in nature, but when we have the new man described, it is Christ.

J.T. Yes, there is only one new man, but it includes all the traits of Christ wherever they are, and Christ is everything; so that, whether it be Himself personally or His characteristics, we make everything of Him, and He is all and in all in that exclusive realm called the new man. In Colossians, as we know, the thought is the fresh new man, which is very delightful, and ought to be attractive, as over against Esau. I have no doubt, as dwelling in the tents, Jacob would retain freshness; he would not have been wasting his time, for it is said that Abraham dwelt in tents with him, with Isaac and Jacob, so the living thing would be there in the tents.

H.H. If these things are not attended to it would tend to profanity with our leaders or any of us, in contrast to what is holy which should be followed up in a spiritual way.

J.T. It will certainly lead to profanity to be occupied with the man after the flesh, even though it be, as you say, in a legitimate way. Think of loving Esau in a preferential way, and not being set to love Jacob! But then Isaac was adjustable, which is always an evidence of spirituality underneath; when

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he reached the right man and blessed him he never turned away again.

Rem. So that the lesson is to get adjusted.

Ques. Would you say God corrected him and he thanked God for it?

J.T. I would indeed. We have not the slightest indication that he ever regretted blessing Jacob.

P.L. The "exceeding great trembling" helped him from the wrong side to God's side.

J.T. It says, "Then Isaac trembled with exceeding great trembling, and said, Who was he, then, that hunted venison and brought it to me? And I have eaten of all before thou camest, and have blessed him; also blessed he shall be". He has now reached God's side. The man is fixed against his will, as it were, but then he is right now, and that is the point, to get to God's mind about the man even at the expense of great anxiety and exercise, because you come to fixity. "Blessed he shall be", he says; there is no alteration of it. When we come round to the right man in a characteristic way amongst us there are great prospects. "The smell of my son is as the smell of a field which Jehovah hath blessed". There are great prospects, great potentialities, in a field.

Then, when we come to Joseph, it is a continuation of that which began with Cain, who made much of his elder son Enoch; it was a family matter on the line of the flesh, another side to our position, and confusion brought in by regarding our children after the flesh as in a preferential way, bringing that in amongst the saints.

E.G. So that "my son" and "my father" really have no place in the assembly.

J.T. That is the lesson to be learnt from Joseph. He was a great spiritual man but he was thinking of his eldest son, and, when that is so, it means I am thinking of my family on the line of nature, instead of seeing that God takes away the first to establish

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the second. That is the point. Jacob was on the line of the mind of God in taking away the first and establishing the second. That is what is to abide.

Rem. Christ is said to be the second man.

J.T. Quite so, the second man is out of heaven: that is the Man.

A.M.H. How is it that Jacob speaks so emphatically here, "I know ... I know"?

J.T. That is an element needed in our gatherings; not simply that I know the meaning of Scripture or am able to expound it, but I know the mind of God and who is in His mind for the first place. I see how He has given Christ the first place in raising Him from the dead and giving Him glory, but I want to see the traits of Christ in the brethren and give them the first place.

Ques. Would it be right to say that God helped Isaac to cross his hands, but Jacob did it intelligently?

J.T. I think that is right. Isaac was controlled externally in what he was doing, but when he came to the real man, to Jacob, he knew him and he smelt him and spoke of him as being like a field which Jehovah had blessed.

E.G. Could you open out that thought?

J.T. It is a potentiality; what every person is who is the subject of the work of God, so we acquire smell to discern who is who. It is a question of smell, "See, the smell of my son", that is the one right before me. He was mistaken as to his mind but not as to his instincts, not as to his smell. One's smell may be safer than one's knowledge. Smell is a sense I have which belongs to me constitutionally.

E.G. Did Paul have a good sense of smell when he wrote the last chapter to the Romans?

J.T. Yes, what a fine list he had; it was what he discerned in these people he salutes, the traits of Christ were there.

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P.L. Would the sense of smell develop at the golden altar in the presence of the incense, the spirit of prayer as seen in Epaphras and Paul in the Colossian epistle?

J.T. That is right; it is a principle running through Scripture especially from Exodus, the idea of odour, and we often notice the sisters have more instinct in that way than the brothers, who know the history of a case. They discern the thing; that is the development of that sense of smell, so that you can tell who is who, not simply by history but by what is before you. Isaac's mind was on Esau, but if Esau had been there he would not have had that smell; it is a question of spirituality, of potentiality in the field, that there is wealth there, wealth for a yield for God in due time. It may take centuries to work out, as it did, but it was there. You could not have acquired that from the mere history of Jacob; it was there before Isaac's nostrils. Our minds based on history may be different from our sense of smell -- there is something -- the feeling: I have not a thing against that brother, but he is not just right to me; it is spiritual instinct.

Ques. Did Paul have that when he refused to take Mark and chose Silas (Acts 15)?

J.T. I think that is the thought, although he gives a reason for it, but that is the idea. I have not a thing against the brother or sister historically, but somehow there is something there that repels me.

Rem. One of the features of the body, according to 1 Corinthians 12:17, is smell. The apostle says, "Where the smelling?" in connection with the body of Christ.

J.T. Quite so.

E.S.H. I suppose the full-grown man would have all his senses exercised.

J.T. That fits in with what we are saying. It is what is so needed so that we might be guided aright.

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One often says he has a judgment about everyone he knows. We are not to be critical about our brethren, but to know where they are with God. It is not simply history you go by, but what they are. "The smell of my son", Isaac says, although he thought he was somebody else; the smell was right and Isaac's power of discernment was right, although his mind was wrong.

Rem. Jehovah is the first one of whom this feature is recorded, in Genesis 8He "smelled the sweet odour" -- do we acquire the feature that He Himself has found pleasure in?

J.T. So that we develop on those lines. It is a quality of God, you might say; it alludes to God's nostrils.

H.H. The wealth of the inheritance was lying behind all this. Jacob was a single man at the time, but he had regard for the great inheritance that was coming in in his family.

J.T. That is the idea, what would be for God in that one man and what is developed out of him in the twelve tribes of Israel. Now in Genesis 48, he is cutting across the family feeling, the family thoughts, in Joseph. The elder is the idea of the family after the flesh, but the setting aside of that is to bring in the spiritual side. Jacob himself opens it up in the next chapter. The principle had to be established if we are to work out intelligently the great thoughts of God in the twelve tribes; the great principle of setting aside the first must be established, and that is what chapter 48 brings out; it leaves room for chapter 49, where it is said that Jacob called his sons and said, "Assemble yourselves, and hear, ye sons of Jacob, And listen to Israel your father". It is in the light really of what he had established in chapter 48, he had set aside the first. That is confirmed when he speaks about Reuben; he says, "Impetuous as the waters, thou shalt have no pre-eminence";

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that is the principle, the first is set aside morally in chapter 48. Not that Reuben is not to be blessed, but it is not as the firstborn but as one of the tribes.

Ques. So does guiding his hands wittingly show that he had Christ before him?

J.T. Yes, the whole history of the tribes must hang on this great decision, it is a question of setting aside the first; there can be no blessing apart from that principle.

Ques. Does it mean that spiritual affections should take precedence of natural affections?

J.T. Exactly. Jacob knew what he was doing.

Rem. And he set Ephraim, which means fruitfulness, before Manasseh, which means forgetfulness.

J.T. So "he blessed them that day, saying, In thee will Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and Manasseh! And he set Ephraim before Manasseh". There would be a great result.

Dr. R. Would you say Joseph is one of the most spiritual men in the Scripture, but yet he failed here?

J.T. That is what I had in mind, that those who are more prominent amongst us are to observe these things. We are so apt to be diverted for personal reasons or considerations, and confusion in every case is the result. The work of God will not proceed or the traits of Christ be developed amongst us save as we see these things and recognise that He establishes the second, setting aside the first.

P.L. Would Paul illustrate this in Acts 20, the result maybe of not crossing his hands; but when he gets into prison, the prisoner of the Lord, and the great truths of Colossians and Ephesians are unfolded, is he adjusted rightly with his hands crossed?

J.T. Yes, quite so. I have no doubt in going up to Jerusalem he had somewhat the first before him. Why was he going up? What was there to attract

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him? He was determined to go, although the Spirit testified to him that in every city bonds and afflictions awaited him. Why did he go? One would not discredit the great apostle; but it is not at Jerusalem that he gets any Ephesian light. You would not expect the Colossian epistle from Jerusalem. He is shaving his head and paying expenses for others in the temple, coming under the power of that which was now to be set aside publicly; you could not expect great Ephesian light under those circumstances. But in Rome you get these wonderful epistles, and what exercises the apostle would have gone through in the meantime so as to arrive at the great thought of Christ in heaven and His body down here. I think if we see this great principle in Genesis 48 we shall understand what Jacob has to say about the tribes in chapter 49, and how every one of them is blessed. The person who had the place of the first is also blessed, but he only comes into it on the line of the second. So that the persons who are occupied with the first, as they understand the position, come into the blessing; but they are standing in their own way till they do acknowledge the second. It is said, "All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father spoke to them; and he blessed them: every one according to his blessing he blessed them". Morally you could not have chapter 49 except in the recognition of this great principle in chapter 48 -- so that every one of us gets blessing, but it is on this line of the recognition of the second instead of the first.

A.M.H. You spoke of the discipline of the beloved apostle; are we helped of God in that way through discipline?

J.T. Quite so. He was a man like ourselves and had to go through discipline to reach the divine end.

W.P. In 1 Chronicles you get an explicit statement as to the birthright being taken from the firstborn,

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would that be significant in view of the development of the service of God in that book?

J.T. You can understand that. Chronicles gives the direct line of the testimony from Adam down, as you might say, to the end of the Acts. It is really from Adam to Paul, Paul in prison writing Ephesians, for Luke links on with the writing of the Chronicles. He links on with it directly in quoting the course of the priests and carries the thought right down to Paul in prison at Rome. Chronicles begins with Adam, and Luke takes on the book of Chronicles and carries the thread down to Paul in prison at Rome.

Ques. Would you say he had Christ characteristically before him when Paul could say that "Luke alone is with me"?

J.T. You can understand how the apostle would have that in mind; the man who gathered up the thread of the testimony and carried it right through Chronicles to Paul in Rome in the prison.

Ques. Is it interesting to note that in chapter 48 the blessing is attributable to God, whereas in chapter 27 the blessing is attributable to the satisfaction of Isaac -- "A savoury dish such as I love", he says, "before I die". But in chapter 48 Jacob attributes the blessing to God Himself and his own experiences with Him?

J.T. Yes, it is interesting. How often Isaac refers to himself, as we were saying -- "Hunt me venison", "Prepare me a savoury dish, such as I love, and bring it to me", it is himself; but then beneath all that he has the thought of blessing, so that it shows how a man may be diverted and yet the real thing be there. He needs adjustment, and when he is adjusted the thing is fixed. It is very fine to see an old brother brought round to that, to fixity.

Rem. Thinking of 'me' is all foreign to the new man.

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J.T. Quite so. He is making himself an object; you will notice that if you look at the passage, how much he makes of himself. Jacob is not thinking of that at all in his blessing; he is thinking of God; he knows what he is doing. So now we have a state of things, applying it to any gathering where there may have been confusion, that is according to the mind of God; the whole outlook is clear, all the tribes are blessed.

Ques. Would the Psalms indicate that David appreciated what was said to king Saul, "Thou ... shalt be turned into another man"?

J.T. You mean that with David there was another man? It is a different man from Saul, that is the point, so that 1 Samuel 16 brings out that, although Samuel was right as to principles, for he lays down the principles in regard of Saul and chapter 15 brings out in the plainest way the principles governing the position, yet, as regards his own feelings, he is not with the principles. He can say much more as to the truth than he is with in his own mind and affections; and that is often seen amongst us. So God says, I am sorry I ever made him king. But Samuel is mourning for him and continuing to mourn for him, and God does not like that. He says, "How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him?" That is, I am not in accord with the mind of God, my principles are right, but my feelings and affections are not right. I should be glad if it were somebody else.

Rem. The sense of smell is lacking.

J.T. Quite so.

P.L. Is our refuge from this to fill our horn with oil and go and anoint David? Does Paul, in the Philippians, do that in the presentation of the descent of the Lord Jesus in chapter 2, and then has he not done with the tribe of Benjamin, which Saul represents, in chapter 3?

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J.T. Very good. You mean that in chapter 2 he comes to the mind that is in Christ Jesus, and goes on to show how that worked out, how God exalted that Man. Whereas in chapter 3 he was of the tribe of Benjamin, with all the qualities that would make him acceptable to the first order of things, but he renounced it all. Is that your thought?

P.L. Yes.

F.I. You say we may be right in our principles and wrong in our feelings; what brings that about?

J.T. One often wonders. There are those who value the principles, but somehow they would rather somebody else was putting them out; they do not care for the persons. For instance, Paul said, "All who are in Asia ... have turned away from me" (2 Timothy 1:15). It does not say they had turned away from what Paul taught; it was personal feeling. And so pronounced was it in Samuel's case that God says, 'I will go with you to Jesse's house and name the man', as if He did not trust him; the sequel shows he was not to be trusted, for he would have anointed Eliab; his personal feelings were not right.

P.L. Must we have the blend of Luke and Matthew, the principles in Matthew and the spiritual feelings in Luke, to be churchmen?

J.T. Very good. Great feelings come out in Luke. The multitude of the heavenly host came down to celebrate what was there, delight in the man Christ had brought in -- "good pleasure in men" -- not only Christ, but the kind of man that Christ brings in.

Ques. Does 1 Samuel 16:18 show the kind of man that God is bringing in?

J.T. I should take up an earlier verse for the kind of man; that verse gives his attainments, that is, he "is skilled in playing, and he is a valiant man and a man of war, and skilled in speech, and of good presence, and Jehovah is with him". But the kind of man that he was is in verse 12, "He was ruddy, and besides of a

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lovely countenance and beautiful appearance. And Jehovah said, Arise, anoint him; for this is he". That is the real man; it is the living man, what he was personally; his attainments come after that.

Rem. It was so with Abigail, the first thing said about her is the same as is said of David, she was of a beautiful countenance.

J.T. It is a question of the kind of man. Jacob was lovable in himself.

Ques. Have you the same thought in regard of Moses; they viewed him as a beautiful child?

J.T. That is the thought exactly -- fair to God.

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RESURRECTION IN THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS

Romans 1:1 - 7; Romans 4:23 - 25; Romans 6:1 - 4; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11

The first passage brings out the power that deals with death, the complete victory over real death. The second relates to justification, which is an outstanding feature in the presentation of the gospel, being connected directly with the resurrection. The third bears on our wilderness position, involving the glory of the Father in the resurrection. The fourth passage brings in the fruit for God. Finally in chapter 8 we have what God thinks of us as being a dwelling-place for His Spirit.

These scriptures involve a very wide range of truth, but there is a need for it so that we might be established and not be cast about by current things. Sonship was a known thing at the baptism of Christ, but in Romans 1 we have presented the qualifications in power, which marked Him off as the Son of God. There was no surrender of holiness in His dealing with death; the Spirit of holiness was maintained in all His acts of power and certainly in His resurrection. Essential holiness runs right through His path, and resurrection is associated with moral power as well as with spiritual power. We see what God has in Christ. In the operations in Genesis 1 only God is mentioned, but we are on known ground in Romans, and the qualifications are in the Lord Jesus. Holiness is not found in Genesis 1, but a Person is in mind here. We are on known ground, for God is known in Christ who is marked out as God's Son because He deals with death. It is in view of the service of God: "The living ... shall praise thee" (Isaiah 38:19).

The true Aaron is seen here. Aaron was referred to as the 'holy one;' here the true Aaron brings

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in living response. Even in administrative matters we are to maintain holiness; it is essential in dealing with matters relating to evil. The demons recognised Him and owned Him to be the "holy one of God". The Holy Spirit would then be in power among us as we move administratively; in fact He came down in an administrative setting at Pentecost, and Peter in speaking in Acts 5 to Ananias of lying to the Holy Spirit emphasises that side. Peter was maintaining the spirit of holiness and so dealt with this evil matter in power. The most powerful opposition is met by the spirit of holiness. The gospel is often presented without it, but it should not be so. The gospel as received into the soul is the potentiality of everything for God; fulness is in it. As the Mediator, Christ laid His hand on God and on us. We know Him thus; He is of the seed of David, but He is marked out God's Son in dealing with the power of death, establishing the victory on which everything is to be eventually accomplished. The assembly is the fulness, for she is to be the vessel in which all this power is known. Death was an affront to God's majesty, but the Lord Jesus was revealed in view of dealing with this adverse power. God's thought is life.

Chapter 4 sets out the great divine consideration for us and it should touch every one of us, to the youngest, that the Lord Jesus was delivered for our offences and raised for our justification. It is to establish confidence in God. Abraham is a characteristic believer and this chapter is to make believers, so that Abraham's children should come to light. God raised up our Lord Jesus Christ for our sakes, and peace with God results in chapter 5. Confidence in God is thus established. In Luke 13 the woman was bent double, but the power of Christ operated to liberate her from such a state, so that as lifting up herself she might see the One who effected her deliverance. Confidence results and she is called a

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"daughter of Abraham". The generation of Abraham comes to light in Luke as the result of the activities of grace. Zacchaeus is another such; he is called a "son of Abraham".

It is necessary for us to learn that death is upon everything here. The best in nature has to go, and we must face this before the truth and power of resurrection can be known by us. The last enemy is met by Christ and completely annulled. What a victory He has wrought for the believer! In John 11 Jesus says of Lazarus, "Let us go to him". He loved Mary and Martha, but Lazarus is definitely in mind here; it is a special matter and it is teaching for us. The power of Christ is emphasised, for corruption had set in; he had been four days dead, but he is raised. It is important to see that every believer's death is a special matter; we are in good hands, for, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. In every believer's case Jesus is concerned, He puts us to sleep. Death is dealt with peculiarly in relation to believers; God will bring us with Christ in resurrection power, so Romans 4 establishes confidence in God in everything.

Sarah is the first person in Scripture whose burial is recorded, and much is made of it in order to help us. There is special care of each believer and not one is haphazard. How touching it is to know, when we lose our brethren, that God had to do with it and it was a special matter to Him. Hezekiah feared, but Paul says, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" That is 1 Corinthians 15, where we are on known ground again; but he has also to say, "Some are ignorant of God;" that is a solemn thing and this chapter would help us to be free from such a charge. Jacob and Joseph also refer much to the matter of death, and doubtless they had learnt from the instruction as to Sarah. Also Stephen "fell asleep" and was carried to his burial;

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God was interested and so was Jesus, whom he had seen. Romans is the opening up of Genesis 5 -- the life line.

Chapter 6 brings out the Father's part in the act of resurrection. It is our identification with Christ in death in view of likeness to Him in resurrection. In our case there is to be something to correspond with Christ's resurrection, so that every believer's resurrection involves the Father's glory. Our walking in newness of life is connected with our knowledge of the Father. The Father's affections entered into the resurrection of Christ. He could say, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hades, nor wilt thou give thy gracious one to see corruption" (Acts 2:27). He ever knew the Father's affections and had this confidence. Why then should we not have that confidence? The Father's voice at His baptism, and on the mount of transfiguration, and in John 12, all enter into this matter of Christ's resurrection and we are to know something of its meaning. On the cross He said, "My God", quoting from Psalm 22, but in the assembly He addresses Him as "Father". He committed His spirit to the Father, so that newness of life links on with the Father.

'God' is stressed in Romans 6, implying our responsibility and going as far as judgment (verse 23), but grace is to permeate everything for us, so the Father's glory and newness of life are put together. Peter speaks of invoking the Father, but of fearing God, and we read in Hebrews that "our God is a consuming fire;" so that we accept all that God is as God, but we also know Him as Father.

"Resurrection from among the dead" means a selective one; Lazarus being called by name in John 11 proves this. Affection enters into it, for it is not all the dead. Unbelievers will be raised as an evidence of authority, but the saints are raised as an evidence of affection. In Luke 16:19 - 31, the

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rich man has no name at all, but Lazarus has the same name on earth and in Abraham's bosom. This implies the affectionate interest of heaven in every saint, of which resurrection is the crowning witness.

Chapter 7 speaks of marriage and is to give us complete deliverance from any other claimant. We may be full of religious thoughts even at the Supper, but we are to be delivered, to be to Him who is raised from the dead. It is to bring in the moral element, to free us from all legal, sentimental, and religious thoughts which mark us naturally. Fleshly and religious thoughts have no claim over us now and we are entitled so to regard ourselves and to lean on the arm of our Beloved in coming together. It is a newness of life and walk in chapter 6, but in chapter 7 the service of God is in view and fruit to Him, involving in its fulness the assembly. I believe that the truth of the Lord's supper enters into this, and this chapter entitles us to dismiss all connected with the old dispensation. In John 20 Mary turns completely round to look at the Lord. This verse includes what we were and what we are. A new bond is formed; the old is dispensed with. "To be to another" is a very strong idea and the affections are called into it; the old things must be dismissed.

In chapter 8: 11 we have a dwelling-place for God, a place for the Spirit of Him who raised up Jesus. Both 'Jesus' 'Christ' are mentioned: the first involving God's personal relation to Him, the second the testimony side. As anointed He is Christ in view of testimony and we also are viewed as in the testimony. The great value of our bodies to God is in mind; they are necessary for the testimony. He loved Jesus personally and He loves us personally, but He also loves Him in relation to the testimony, and He loves us too in that respect. How much do we know of this? The first is inward, the second is outward; the first is seen in the shittim wood, the

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second in the gold covering. The first is seen in a praying Saul of Tarsus, the second in his preaching the Son of God. The treasure is in earthen vessels -- that is the value of our bodies. In John 4 the Lord refers to the Holy Spirit as living water and the woman apprehends that her body is serviceable and is to enter into the testimony. So she leaves her waterpot, and then she shines in the city in testimony, saying to the men, "Is not this the Christ?" She was operative in relation to the testimony, and was characteristically a vessel for the Holy Spirit. We are now viewed as persons in that dignity, having the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus. We are marked off as sons, and there is evidence spiritually that this is the case. God shows how He will finish the work begun in the gospel. We are thus to be lovable and serviceable to God. It is seen in Caleb and Joshua -- men of another spirit. The Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus involves the glory of the Father. Thus all God's thoughts are to be accomplished. As we consider Jesus, what He was to God, we are concerned to correspond with Him, for that Spirit is to be in us. In the Acts they took knowledge of the disciples that they had been with Jesus; there was moral correspondence with Him.

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REDEMPTION AND FAITH

Romans 3:21 - 26; Romans 8:23; 1 Peter 1:17 - 21; Ephesians 1:7

J.T. It is thought that the subject of redemption seen in these verses will yield to us at this time. First the great general thought of it in Romans 3, redemption from the full consequences of sin, so that in that passage we have the great atoning work of Christ dealt with, as perhaps it is not elsewhere, in its bearing on us at the present time, the idea of redemption from the terrible effects of sin upon our consciences, we being awakened to a sense of sin before God. Then chapter 8 contemplates the redemption of our bodies, they too being released from the consequences of sin. We have the thought of adoption or sonship brought in there, showing that is its full result in resurrection, that we are not only raised, but brought into sonship in the full sense of it. And then, in Peter, deliverance from legal things, from the vain tradition that was handed down to the Jewish christians, and from which we now in christendom suffer. God's people suffer much from tradition, from what is handed down from the fathers, as they are called, darkening our souls, even entering into our services in the assembly, sentimentality and religious things which hinder. Finally, in Ephesians, redemption showing the riches of God's grace. That was what was in mind.

F.D. You speak of the subject in Romans 3 as general?

J.T. Yes, the full bearing of the atoning work of Christ as releasing and delivering us, redemption having that force, setting us, that is, those who judge sin, who fear its consequences, free from the consequences of sin.

H.H. Would that be in connection with God taking up His rights?

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J.T. Well, it is so. The idea of it involves that someone has a right to do so, but it is seen in Christ as become Man. The right of redemption is, I think, seen, as we might say legally, in the fact that Christ has become Man; it is His relation to humanity that affords Him that right.

H.H. Because it was man that sinned?

J.T. Quite, and because He is related to us as having become Man. We learn from the book of Ruth that He has the right of redemption. He, as become Man, is related to us. It is a very great fact to take in that Christ has become Man. Simeon in the temple had that light, he took Him into his arms, he appropriated Him -- "A light", he says, "for revelation of the Gentiles and the glory of thy people Israel". He is God's Christ, but He is also on our side as Man. The passage shows that He has come in as Man, as the apostle says, "God sent forth his Son, come of woman, come under law, that we might receive sonship" (Galatians 4:4, 5).

J.S. Would it be right to say that "Jesus Christ" suggests that God secures that Man should be under His eye in perfection, and then goes on in connection with His blood and the mercy seat?

J.T. Yes, He was God's Son, of course, and declared to be such from heaven. He is marked off as Son, according to this epistle, by resurrection of dead, according to the Spirit of holiness. He qualifies to take up this great work; God's Son, but "come of David's seed according to the flesh" -- He is on God's side, but He is on our side. God, it says in the passage in Peter, has taken up the One that is on our side, raised Him up from the dead and given Him glory that our faith and hope should be in God -- He has regarded Him in that way. So that He is said in Romans to be delivered for our offences, raised again for our justification. He is available in that way. "Whom God has set forth a mercy-seat"

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-- God has Him, He has Him as Man, but He is on our side too.

H.H. How far would redemption go? I mean, it would not refer, I take it, to those who never will come into blessing.

J.T. It is said here to be "righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ towards all, and upon all those who believe: for there is no difference; for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of his righteousness, in respect of the passing by the sins that had taken place before, through the forbearance of God; for the shewing forth of his righteousness in the present time, so that he should be just, and justify him that is of the faith of Jesus". The redemption that is in Christ Jesus is available for all, but its application is only to those who have faith; the point is those who believe, those who are of the faith of Jesus.

E.J.McB. Is the thought that God has brought in this wonderful redemption, universal in its bearing, but applicable to those who believe?

J.T. Yes, that is how it stands -- towards all, but upon all those who believe. I mean, the righteousness, as you say, is only effective to those who have faith, the difference lies in faith. The bearing of it is towards all, but the difference lies in faith.

J.S. Would "towards all" be like declaration, like the sun shining?

J.T. That is right, the difference lies in faith; so that the Lord says to the woman in Luke 7, "Thy faith ..." it is the person who has faith that comes into it.

G.C.P. Is it great enough in value for all?

J.T. Quite so -- the difference lies in faith. So that the point in our enquiry now is that, as to faith,

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whether we are possessed of that quality, for that is what makes the difference.

F.I. Would it be the same principle as in 1 Timothy 2 where it speaks of the Lord Jesus giving Himself a ransom for all?

J.T. That is the thought, it is on the part of all. It is very simple if we see that the difference lies in faith; if that were not so anyone might say he is redeemed.

F.I. You get the limit in Mark: "To ... give his life a ransom for many;" the preposition 'for' there really means 'instead of', in distinction from the preposition in Timothy meaning 'on behalf of'.

J.T. That is a good distinction; 'on behalf of' means that the bearing is towards all, but there is absolute substitution, I think, when you come to "instead of", but faith makes the difference.

G.C.S. Is that faith exemplified in Rahab? It says she perished not with the unbelievers, not the sinners.

J.T. That is good, "By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with the unbelieving, having received the spies in peace" (Hebrews 11:31). What is in mind is that we might enquire about this matter of faith, lest we may be moving on with intelligent and mental appreciation of what is being presented to us in ministry and the like, without the article of faith, for that is what makes the difference. "Without faith it is impossible to please God", we are told. How much Romans makes of faith. We might attend all the meetings held and read all the ministry written, read the Bible constantly, yet without faith there is no pleasure for God.

Ques. What is the thought in "Elias was a man of like passions to us, and he prayed with prayer that it should not rain" (James 5:17) and the heavens were shut up. Yet, on another occasion

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it says that God "is a rewarder of them who seek him out" (Hebrews 11:6) -- could you help us as to the difference? I am thinking of the things that we are free to pray for and as to how far our faith could go. Could we take a line like that?

J.T. That is a question of whatever the matter may be. For instance there is a sin unto death, and John says as to it, I do not say that we should pray. It is a matter of spiritual discernment of the mind of God as to what you should pray for, and what you should not pray for. If we pray for what is in accord with the will of God, we know He hears us and that we have the petitions if we ask according to His will. Evidently Elijah prayed according to God's will; conditions at that time required that remarkable sign. Indeed Elijah says to Ahab, "There shall not be dew nor rain these years, except by my word" (1 Kings 17:1). God was bringing out the idea of a mediator. Elijah was typically that; things would be at his word; he was a man who had authority from God. It would be a serious thing to have to do with a man like Elijah in apostate times, for God empowered him to deal judicially with the nation. But then, he could pray again, and he did with great exercise on the top of Carmel, and God gave rain. James indeed is stressing the importance of prayer.

Ques. Does Abraham's finding strength in faith as set forth in the next chapter affect this? It says he is father of us all.

J.T. That is what chapter 4 is to teach us, it gives examples of faith; chapter 3 shows the principles; chapter 4 gives us examples of faith.

Ques. Is your point that the vast system of redemption as opened out by God is only available to faith? The day is coming when it will be outward and public, but the dispensation now is in faith.

J.T. That is the idea exactly. In the millennium death will be removed publicly and every one will

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get the benefit of that; now we come into it by faith, then it will be sight.

Rem. So that it says in chapter 1, righteousness of God is revealed on the principle of faith to faith.

J.T. That is the principle of the epistle, the gospel is for the obedience of faith among all the nations.

Ques. Is not faith in chapter 3 the gift of God?

J.T. Yes, it is; it is really the outcome of His work in us. That was what made the difference between the woman in Simon's house and Simon himself, she had faith and he did not: although the creditor frankly forgave them both, forgiveness was for both. How solemn it will be for Simon in the day of judgment when he stands before God; the attitude of God was the same to him as to the woman. He may say, The difference between us was that she had faith and I had not. The Lord says to her, "Thy faith has saved thee" -- not simply 'faith has saved thee', but "thy faith". Here in Romans it is to bring out that it is on that principle, but it gives us also examples of persons who have believed.

H.H. She had the witness of a divine Person that her sins were forgiven, "For which cause I say to thee, Her many sins are forgiven". Would the Spirit come in there at all in regard to the matter of faith as a witness?

J.T. That is what is said in Hebrews 10the Spirit is a witness to us.

H.H. I thought perhaps, where there was genuine faith, it was supported by the Holy Spirit in the believer. Is that right?

J.T. Quite so, it is, we come into it on the principle of faith.

F.S.M. Is it the same thought in Acts 13, remission of sins preached, and then, everyone that believes?

J.T. There it is again. We are, of course, going over the ground of the gospel, but it is, I believe,

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very important now to do this to get the fundamental thought of redemption and that it is on the principle of faith, and that that faith is to continue and to grow, so that we are in the dispensation of faith. God's dispensation is in faith.

A.M.H. Does faith bring in the element of responsibility?

J.T. I think it does. What have you in mind?

A.M.H. I was thinking that it is only right, man having turned from God, that faith should be in evidence and that he believes God and is justified.

J.T. That is what the epistle has in mind, I believe, to establish confidence in God in man's heart. God has provided Himself, as it were, the Mediator, that is One on our side to make us assured, a divine Person marked out to be such by resurrection of the dead. He is raised from the dead by the glory of God, hence, in the end of chapter 4 He is said to be delivered for our offences and raised again for our justification. "Therefore", it goes on, "having been justified on the principle of faith, we have peace towards God". Happy relations are set up between God and ourselves; we have confidence in God, and then the further thought is that His love is shed abroad in our hearts, another divine Person operating to effect that.

Rem. So the tenth leper returned and gave glory to God.

J.T. Quite so.

A.M.H. One has heard the remark that, faith being the gift of God, all depends on God, but we are responsible to believe, are we not? It lies with us, and if faith is put into operation, does it not open up to us all that God has secured through Christ on our behalf?

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. Paul said. "I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision".

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J.T. Quite so. It is for the obedience of faith to all nations, so the element of subjection must be there accompanying faith. Peter says God gave the Holy Spirit to those that obey Him.

Ques. While it says in Ephesians that faith is the gift of God, here it says that faith comes by hearing; would that bring in the element of responsibility referred to?

J.T. Quite so, there is a testimony: the hearing refers to the testimony, that is the word of God.

Ques. What should we have in mind in the preaching?

J.T. Well, as some of us were saying last night, much is put into what the apostle had to say in the opening of this epistle to bring out the authority of Christ to take up the matter. That is, He is marked out to be Son of God by resurrection of dead, without saying who the dead are; that terrible matter exists, that there are the dead. And death is the great enemy, the last enemy wielded by Satan. The Lord had qualified as marked off, not by the declaration from heaven at His baptism, but by resurrection of dead, dealing with that matter, and, in dealing with it, there is no surrender of holiness; it is in the Spirit of holiness it is dealt with. Now, that is how the matter stands at the outset, so that it is the gospel of God concerning His Son, with these additional things that he was "come of David's seed according to flesh, marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead" (Romans 1:4). That is the One; it is the gospel concerning God's Son, but that Person so qualified. Now that is to be presented always, a thing to be carried forward, so that what is received in our souls is the divine thought, and valued accordingly.

Ques. Does Hebrews 11:6 emphasise the side of faith where it says, "He that draws near to God must

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believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them who seek him out"? Is there the danger of our getting casual and the need to have God before us in reality?

J.T. Yes. We need to enquire as to this matter of faith, whether we are possessed of it, whether it is an active principle with us.

Ques. Will you say a word as to having faith in His blood?

J.T. Well, there is a slight question as to the actual meaning of that verse, but it seems to me it is a question of how you regard the blood. It really emphasises the value of the death of Christ, the blood represents that, that I have faith in that. Generally it is faith in God in Romans, but there is, I think, that too, that I have faith in the value of the death of Christ and what it really is, I understand the bearing of it as dealing with this great matter.

Ques. What would hinder us having faith?

J.T. Well, of course, unbelief is the opposite, and I think to see that unbelief is sinful will help us to judge it; unbelief in a man's heart is sin.

Rem. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin".

J.T. Quite so. If God presents things clearly in testimony and I deliberately refuse to believe, it is sin, and seeing that helps one even in his own state of soul, his progress; any working of unbelief as to any matter is sin and has to be judged unsparingly. That, although negative, greatly helps the positive side, that I have a conscience all the time as to the allowance of unbelief as to anything. I may be fearful in a general way as to my soul's salvation, but unbelief as to anything is sin.

Ques. Would you say the word is linked up with the mind and heart? -- If we believe in our hearts.

J.T. Yes. It says, "By faith they [that is Israel] passed through the Red sea" (Hebrews 11:29). Faith is

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attributed to them as in that action -- by faith they passed through the Red sea. That is the last act of faith until we come to Rahab. There is nothing said about faith in the wilderness in that chapter, but it is encouraging that what is alluded to in the end of Romans 4, "Delivered for our offences and has been raised for our justification" is followed by, "Therefore having been justified on the principle of faith". They did have faith in that particular matter: by faith they passed through the Red sea.

J.S. What would you say of the last verse of Exodus 4? Moses did the different signs, then it says, "And the people believed. And when they heard that Jehovah had visited the children of Israel, and that he had seen their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped". How would that come in?

J.T. It is very plain they believed; what is brought out there is ministerial power; you get that touch in the ministerial books. What these two great ministers did led to worship; that is always a mark of true ministry; it leads the saints to faith and worship. So, when you come to chapter 12, Moses epitomises what Jehovah had said to him about the passover, and again it says that they worshipped -- "And the people bowed the head and worshipped. And the children of Israel went away, and did as the Lord had commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they". There you get obedience. In the earlier passage, based on ministerial power, you get faith; here you get action taken, keeping the commandment. Now both these incidents refer to ministerial power, that is to say, how the testimony is presented by those who present it, that it is presented in such a way as to affect people, that they believe and worship. Moses might have repeated everything Jehovah said to the people, but he did not, he just gives us seven verses conveying Jehovah's instructions to him. There are about

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twenty verses in the original instructions relative to the passover, but he confines himself in speaking to the people to seven verses. And that is a good suggestion as to the ministry, that we are condensed and concise in what we present, so that faith and the obedience of faith are induced.

Ques. Is faith the same as trust? You believe God and you trust Him for the path.

J.T. They are cognate words, but faith is a remarkable word. It is not used in Scripture in the casual way men make use of it; Hebrews 11 ought to be studied as to it; it is something I cannot please God without -- I have to understand what it really means.

Rem. It is a practical thing.

J.T. It is; it induces trust, of course, that I rely on God.

Rem. It meant a lot to the man in John 9, he became a worshipper by believing.

J.T. Quite so. After he had gone through much in his soul, the Jews hating and persecuting him and casting him out, the Lord finds him, as much as to say, That is the man the Lord is looking for -- the Lord found him, he did not find the Lord. He was valuable, a rare man, and the Lord says to him, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" -- not 'Do you believe your eyes are opened?' for that was an historical matter now; but "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" And he said, "Who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? And Jesus said to him, Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he. And he said, I believe, Lord".

Ques. Would that be the result of the obedience of faith? He was sent to the pool.

J.T. Exactly -- those two elements of faith and obedience; it is really the obedience of faith and how beautifully he shone, as our brother has called attention to.

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Ques. Is it important to see that faith is a continual matter? It says in John 2 His disciples believed on Him.

J.T. Yes, they had that status outwardly; we may have it too and not really go the whole way. It is believing on Him now -- "Jesus ... manifested his glory; and his disciples believed on him" (John 2:11).

Rem. The work of redemption must precede the ministerial power for testimony.

J.T. That is good, if it be a question of redemption. In the case of Moses and Aaron it had not yet happened; the point is they believed what was presented to them. The thing is, do I believe whatever is presented to me on God's behalf?

Ques. Does ministerial ability enter into the way a thing is presented? Suppose the minister presents it feebly?

J.T. Well, we may, and yet find God working in spite of that. But do not put God to the obligation of working in spite of your feebleness. It says in Acts 14 they "so spake" that a great number believed. Then we have a practical case, the man at Lystra; the apostle looked on him and saw he had faith to be healed. Think of his discernment! And he said, "Stand upright on thy feet", and he did. It is the power of the ministry that affected the man.

Ques. Would you not rather say that the work of God would be the inducement of faith, and ministry would be as God may give a measure of gift?

J.T. Just so. I should not like to cast a shade on the presenting of this truth itself, but the question is raised as to Exodus and there you are on ministerial ground, and therefore the point is for the ministers, those who preach, and the apostle says, "How shall they preach, except they be sent?"

A.M.H. It is a question of the power that is in the preaching. The preaching should correspond with what Paul could say of his preaching: it is a savour

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of death unto death, and of life unto life (2 Corinthians 2:16). That is, you can find no fault with the ministerial side.

J.T. Yes, and "If also our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those that are lost" (2 Corinthians 4:3). It is really God's message and rightly presented.

E.J.McB. Then the point, I judge, at stake is that the preacher has faith in God being in the matter in spite of his feebleness, or the lack of belief on the part of the hearers, is that so?

J.T. Quite so. We know well enough that the best preaching we hear now is only feeble compared with what we have here in the apostles, but still I think there is a voice in it and that preaching is on the principle of gift. Everybody cannot preach: "How shall they preach, except they be sent?" Thus Peter stood up with the eleven -- not the twelve, as we have often remarked -- and what a preaching that was, three thousand affected!

Ques. He says, "Give heed to my words". Would that bring in the authority referred to?

J.T. Quite so; a man speaking who knew he had something from God.

Ques. Does the expression, "Faith of Jesus", here imply the need of trusting the Person as well as the work? Or, it might be, instead of the work.

J.T. I think it brings Jesus in in this matter of faith.

J.S. Does that expression, "Justify him that is of the faith of Jesus", suggest a generation?

J.T. I think so, it is that sort of person, for God has Jesus now in mind; the idea of Jesus comes into the faith, what is believed.

F.I. Is redemption brought in so as to enable God to move? It is presented here as in Christ Jesus, but is not the basic thought in relation to it that it enables God to move in relation to those in whom He finds His pleasure in every way?

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J.T. Quite, "Whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood".

F.I. Is it right to say that the great work of redemption was a transaction between divine Persons independent, so to speak, of those They were moving in relation to?

J.T. Yes. Then Exodus 25 is alluded to in the mercy-seat, "Whom God has set forth a mercy-seat". It was there the atonement was made, on the mercy-seat; it is in Christ risen, so that He is an object of faith in that way; He is set forth a mercy-seat.

H.H. As regards the preaching of the gospel, would it not be connected with repentance towards God? In Acts 20 Paul says, "Repentance towards God, and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ". Are they not integral parts of the gospel?

J.T. Quite so. In Romans it is generally faith in God.

Ques. Would that not be the effect of the way the testimony was presented?

J.T. Yes, it is what God has effected. These great qualifying thoughts introduced in the fourth verse of chapter 1, are to bring His Son before us, declared, or marked out "Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead", so that He is clearly before us as the Man whom God is using.

Ques. Would Anna in Luke 2 help in preaching?

J.T. She spoke to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem. She spoke of Jesus; she sought out the ones who would be interested, a very touching thing. "She spoke of him to all them;" she knew all of them.

A.M.H. Would you take redemption to be more limited than the thought of the mercy-seat?

J.T. I should. The mercy-seat is, so to say, a public thing in the gospel: "Whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood".

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A.M.H. And that is "to declare ... his righteousness", is it not?

J.T. Exactly.

Ques. Peter in his epistle alludes to some who deny the Lord that bought them. Do I understand that redemption alludes to the thought that all men are bought?

J.T. They had taken that ground as professing to believe. What we are saying refers to the real matter, but such persons have no part in it at all. They had part in it in a sense, according to Hebrews 6, part even in the Holy Spirit without reality, so that they are taken up on that ground. The Lord might exercise His rights too in saying, I gave My life for you; on the ground of profession and even in the preaching that may be true, but then they are cast away at the end, showing there is nothing in it.

Ques. Is redemption not such a wide thought as purchase?

J.T. Redemption means a person has a right. When it comes to the matter of purchase, anyone might purchase a thing if it is purchasable, but redemption means that only a certain one has a right to do that. That is where Christ comes in as the only One who could undertake to die for men, because, as become Man, He had a right; it brings in a link with Him in the matter. So "God ... raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory;" as we are told in Peter, "that your faith and hope might be in God", because He is on our side.

A.M.H. Would you say, in a sense, that both apply to all? For instance, in the parable, He bought the field for the sake of the treasure. Has that any application?

J.T. I think God may take that on to give Him a sort of right-of-way in the matter, but it does not touch what we are speaking of. The only thing that gives me a real part in redemption is faith.

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Ques. I would like to be clear on this in regard to the lost finally. Did redemption ever have any reference to them? Or would the mercy-seat alone be in reference to them?

J.T. It had reference to them if they professed to appropriate it. As was quoted, "The Lord that bought them;" if they took that ground the Lord would say, I have a right to you; and He may administer accordingly in christendom, and indeed among the Jews too. The epistle of James, I think, is on that basis, it deals with persons who are not christians at all, but they are taken up as having a certain profession; but what we are speaking of is that faith alone is what gives us part in redemption.

Rem. We get the idea in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus: "Recollect that thou hast fully received thy good things". Is there a suggestion there of the ground taken by the rich man?

J.T. Quite so. It gives God a certain advantage in dealing with men if they take up that ground, but if it is not real, it leaves them where they were, ultimately.

W.C. Why is it said in 1 Corinthians 6:20, "Ye have been bought with a price"?

J.T. It is just to bring in that thought, that there is ownership. Purchase means that I have acquired ownership, but redemption really implies that the person who takes it on has a claim -- something has happened that took them away from him. Man was God's on creatorial ground, but something has happened to turn them away from Him, and He wants them back, and He brings this about on the ground of redemption.

Rem. Like Boaz who had the right of redemption.

J.T. Quite. I think Ruth helps very much on this point. So in Mark it is, "Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation" -- there is a link between God and His creature, but

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there is something needed; something has happened, and that has to be met by God taking up a right to redeem, and that opens up an immense amount of truth that links us with God and with Christ.

E.J.McB. May not the point be stressed that the devil has no right to men, and God asserts His rights in the field of redemption?

J.T. That is right. God has a creatorial right, and that is assumed in the gospel. If I go into all the world and preach the gospel to all the creation, that is man looked at abstractly as God's creature. But he can never be saved solely by God's creatorial right over him for "Without shedding of blood is no remission".

Ques. Is not the mercy-seat given a very wide bearing in John's first epistle? "He is the propitiation for our sins; but not for ours alone, but also for the whole world".

J.T. Just so. 'Ours' there is probably a Jewish reference. Of course, we might say it is christianity, but it is to bring out the bearing of the mercy-seat.

Now, as regards chapter 8, the thought goes on to the future, the redemption of our bodies. Our bodies are still mortal, and whilst they are mortal, they are not redeemed. They are the Lord's, but they are not fully brought back from the effects of sin so long as they are mortal and capable of corruption. We must have bodies like the Lord's glorious body to see the full thought of redemption as applied to us. Then the next point (of which one had thought as much as any) is in Peter, namely, the effect of tradition on our souls in our service to God. That is the point Peter makes, and one can understand it in an epistle written to Jewish christians. He says, "Ye have been redeemed, not by corruptible things ... but by precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot". That is, I am not to be harassed by these things, by tradition -- whatever it may be now

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in our times. The Lord has died in order to rescue us from all these things that are abroad religiously and which hinder the service of God.

E.J.McB. So that faith really would be the first principle and then the Spirit in the believer would give him the first-fruits, the present enjoyment of what he will have when he has a glorified body, and then liberty from the system of bondage around us would be by being brought to God. If you were near to God you would be free of them all.

J.T. That is the thought. They have a hold on many, but the Lord would say to me, I died for you to redeem you from all that. He is asserting His right to us in the assembly, and He wants us without all that; He has died to relieve us from it.

P.L. "Then are the sons free".

J.T. That is how it works out.

Ques. Why does Peter refer to silver first and then to gold? He referred to silver first in speaking in the book of Acts to the man at the beautiful gate of the temple, too.

J.T. I do not know, except to keep the rich thought for the end. However rich I may be, it is of no value at all in these things; it is to bring out that it is of no value at all. But I know that the brethren are greatly hampered by tradition, even in our assembly meetings, and the Lord would say, I died to deliver you from that. It is a burden, an obligation brought in, and the Lord has died to release us from it.

P.L. Is its awful character seen in, "We have a law ..."?; it was used to slay Christ. Is that the true character of tradition? -- "We have a law, and according to our law he ought to die, because he made himself Son of God" (John 19:7).

J.T. I think it is important to have that verse before us as bringing out what is meant here, how tradition may affect us to that extent. The apostle

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is dealing with Jewish christians, he is dealing with the burden of tradition by which they were affected and by which christians are affected now too, and he is bringing in the death of Christ, the blood of Christ, and this was in mind in the Lord's death, to release His people from tradition that they might not be burdened by it, but be free of it. Indeed it is said in Colossians, "having nailed it to the cross". So much does God think of this, how it interferes with our service, that He speaks in those strong terms as to tradition.

F.I. So to be clear on that line, it does not do to take up the thought of redemption as that which we have at the start and can leave? The more we enter into it and dwell constantly on the truth of it, the more we shall be clear of these things.

J.T. Yes. So it is before us even as we sit down to the Lord's supper, Am I free of traditional thoughts? The blood of Jesus is to release me from all that.

Ques. Would the practical effect of that be the purifying of our "souls by obedience to the truth"? He follows up with that.

J.T. It reads, "Your vain conversation handed down from your fathers" -- we are redeemed from that -- "but by precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, the blood of Christ, foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but who has been manifested at the end of times for your sakes, who by him do believe on God, who has raised him from among the dead and given him glory, that your faith and hope should be in God. Having purified your souls by obedience to the truth to unfeigned brotherly love ..." (1 Peter 1:18 - 22).

The final thought on this line is in Ephesians, where redemption is said to be in Christ, the Beloved -- that is where it is. It is maintained in its proper level there in Ephesians, and it is according to the riches

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of His grace, so that we are to have it in that sense, expressive of the riches of God's grace.

P.L. Would that be illustrated in David -- the beloved -- that the people have been redeemed in view the service of God?

J.T. That is what his name means, is it not?

P.L. The whole service is based on redemption in Chronicles.

J.T. Quite so, and it is "in the Beloved" -- how that thought stands out in the service of God!

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POWER FOR SPRING IN THE SAINTS

Acts 3:7 - 9; Genesis 24:64; Joshua 15:18, 19; Deuteronomy 33:22

These Scriptures, as no doubt most will have observed, speak of persons leaping or springing, and I have put them together so as to speak of this matter, of the power of spring in the saints. It appears early in the christian dispensation, and it is recorded with such detail as to leave on the mind the impression that it is to be a main feature in the dispensation that there should be the power of spring, which of course, implies the Spirit of God. Peter and John, as we have often noticed, go up together to the temple, and the lame man is, as usual, at the gate. It is said that he had been lame from the outset of his being, but it is also said that he was carried to this spot. A similar incident is recorded later in this book, a gentile incident, far away among the nations at Lystra; the man is spoken of as not having walked at all. Nothing is said about any assistance rendered to him, he was just there: he never had walked. In the fact that no one is spoken of as assisting him, we are no doubt reminded that there was no real assistance in the gentile world at all spiritually, whereas there was some little consideration in Israel, even as it was, the Spirit of God being ever ready to acknowledge whatever there was to be acknowledged among God's ancient people. For it was a question at that time of saving them, and everything that would prejudice them unnecessarily against the gospel was avoided; everything, however small, that might encourage them spiritually was brought forward. So that the man was carried by some, whoever it was; someone cared for him to that extent, and laid him there; not indeed that they expected the temple or those in it

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to help him in a spiritual way, but that those who went in by that gate might be moved charitably. And then what is stated of Peter and John is another touch. Nothing was being said about the barrenness, the poverty, of the temple; indeed these two great servants were going up to it; there was no thought of disparaging it then, but gently they hint that there was something else -- "Look on us". These are levitical touches that we should note in our service so as to gain the most possible, or if by any means to save some. The difficulties are increasing and hence the need of levitical skill in those that would serve. And then Peter gives the man his right hand. Here we are in the presence of the beginning of a wonderful dispensation and the kind of service that marked those who had part in it, how, as in this instance, they would say, We will do our best for you. There were no half measures, no laziness, in those days; the right hand was there. In the gospels, especially in Mark, before we have the appointment of the apostles, the right hand of the man which was withered was healed, as if the Lord would say, These men that I am about to appoint are to understand that their very best is to be employed. And so, whilst God did everything, of course, "The Lord working with them", yet great stress is laid on how they did things, that God was not at any disadvantage in employing them for the best that they had was available. Their appearance in relation to one another, their countenances, their outlook, would all be involved in the direction to the needy man. "Look on us" -- there is something there. No disparagement formally of the temple, the Beautiful gate is mentioned, whatever there was is there mentioned, but there is something else. There is nothing in an outward way; there was no prejudice to anybody in suggesting, "Look on us;" it gives no unnecessary offence, there was something to look at. Perhaps no

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two men like them ever appeared together in this way before. We have twos, of course, and threes, operating in the service of God throughout the Scriptures -- Moses and Aaron, and many others in that way; but I am sure that no two men ever appeared like these two just in this way before. And Peter uses his right hand, and speaks of the Nazaraean, no eloquence, no bringing forward of the great immortal, invisible, or anything like that, it is "Jesus Christ the Nazaraean". The position is equal to that. There is no need yet of these great titles which we get later; they have their place, of course, and we love to use them, and indeed the Lord would put it on us as to whether we are using them, what we are saying about Him. But here it is, "Jesus Christ the Nazaraean", in His name this man is to rise up and walk; but notice, it is not the mere word, it is the right hand of the servant -- he is able to do something. So that it is "the Lord working with them" -- they are doing it, they are doing what is being done, but the Lord is there; things are well done, not only were they worth looking at, but the way they did the thing was worth looking at. So we have this result that he walked and leaped and praised God.

Now this is the great general thought I have in mind and it is found in this particular setting as bearing on the whole dispensation to the end of which we have come. It is written for us, dear brethren, so that there might be something to look at in the sense of spiritual formation and attractiveness, and that there might be something in the way of ability to work the works of God. The Lord says of a blind man that he was blind just so that the works of God should be made manifest in him, and that is the position, it is a question of the works of God. But the works of God are to be done by workmen who enhance them, and that is what we get here. So that we have a spring in this man; it was not simply

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that he sprang up, like the man in chapter 14, but he was walking and leaping and praising God; he is seen that way. That is another thing to be noticed, that what is effected is manifest, he is seen in this way, he is seen by the people as a testimony, walking and leaping and praising God. I have no doubt that these three words, walking, leaping, and praising God, are in their proper order -- of course they are. Walking is balance, that we are sober, as the apostle says. As regards man his testimony was sober, balanced, but to God, he says, "I speak as being beside myself". The power that we have by the Spirit is affected by environment; the more we are in assembly where every whit says, Glory, the more effective we are as spiritual. It is a living scene, it is a glorious scene, and we are not to detract from the glory but to add to it. Leaping, I think, alludes to excess or increase of spiritual power under certain conditions, that is, where it is seemly. And praising God is the final thought. I believe the Lord is working very effectively in this way among His people so that there should be something of this kind, praising God. Whether or not this man used the psalter, whether or not he used hymns I cannot, of course, say, but he praised God, that is, there is further excess; praising God is a further thought of spiritual power, not in mere words but in attitude. The Old Testament is constantly helpful as illustrative of what we are called to. So you find that with the sweet psalmist of Israel, the leader of the praises of God: he danced mightily, with all his might, before the ark. That is a real thing, not mere sentiment, but a real movement of the person before God.

Well now, that is what resulted from these remarkable incidents recorded, what was to be seen and what was to be heard, in connection with Peter's right hand. The name of the Nazaraean, that which was under reproach in the world, was already taking on glory in the spiritual realm. This is the beginning

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of matters, and it is intended to cast rays all down the ages to ourselves. Spiritual matters are not brought down merely by books written, but by the real presence of the Spirit of God in the assembly. So that we get, for instance, in John 14:26, the beautiful reference to the Spirit bringing things to remembrance; the Lord says of Him, "The Comforter ... whom the Father will send in my name" -- the Father would send Him in the Son's name and He would bring to remembrance whatever the Lord had said. It is the Spirit that brings to our attention what we need; He brings to our remembrance. The thought of His having come in the name of the Lord Jesus fits in with these last days when things are peculiarly done in His name as over against other names; so that He says to Philadelphia, "Thou ... hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name". The Spirit of God, dear brethren, is bringing things up constantly in all these meetings through one and another, bringing things to our remembrance, so that there should be what God intended there should be in the last days, what there was at the beginning, in some little way. Here it is walking and leaping and praising God, a real spring in it, and it is to continue. It is a remarkable thing that there is very little in the early chapters of the Acts about the service of God in the assembly; it awaited the full thought of the assembly for that; but here is the idea; there is the material for it. How lustily a brother like this would take part in the assembly meeting, spiritually formed, how he would join in with heart and voice in the praises of God.

Now I want to show you briefly from Rebecca how the thought works out, for Rebecca really fits into this chapter; she is the assembly brought into this position. She was, of course, a failing creature, like all of us -- alas we have to own that! -- she was just a woman of like passions with ourselves; so that,

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whilst we honour her as a woman of faith, and she is a type of what I am speaking of, we must remember that in all the scriptural narratives it is a question of the Spirit of God selecting that which is needed for what He has in mind. How much is left out who can say? It is just His own selection of incidents and His own way of putting them together that makes them speak to us. And so Rebecca is just, as you might say, what we get in this chapter. Sarah's tent is in view in the history of Rebecca, but Isaac comes into view. That is, before you can have Sarah's tent or Rebecca in it, Isaac must come into view and he must be recognised. Here Peter calls Him the Nazaraean, that is the Christ. How much more He was to this man! We can understand how readily this man, who walked and leaped and praised God by the power of that Christ, would listen to anyone who could tell him more of that glorious Person. God had His man ready for that a little while after, that is Paul; but Peter and all the others could speak wonderfully of Christ. You can understand how this man would be ready for any additional thought about Christ. And so Isaac is just Christ in this particular narrative in Genesis 24. He is out in the field coming from the well Beer-lahai-roi. Why was he coming from that place? He was coming from having gone to it indeed, as it should read; he had gone there. He did not despise the well because Hagar had had to do with it. It was a well, it was a spring. Whatever there was in Israel the Lord Jesus took it up and made the most of it. Meditating in the field, he is alone. We sometimes sing. 'No longer now alone;' how worthy He is of companionship suited to Himself! Now you can see, dear brethren, how this man would answer to all this in so far as he could at that time, walking and leaping and praising God. Rebecca draws near on the camel and she sees Isaac; he was meditating in the field. She saw him and she

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asked about him. What a figure he was, I mean spiritually. How often it is the Lord comes into our view in one way and another. We say, What was said was very nice; but what about the enquiry as to this Man? It is a question of the assembly coming into view in each of us. What about enquiring as to this Man? Who is He? Well, she is told who He is; the servant said, "That is my master!" -- not, 'my master's son' now. It is Christ. Here is a man ready for that; you cannot say too much about that Person, Jesus of Nazareth, to this man. Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus who He was. You can understand that thought would be presented in a living way in that lame man now able to walk and leap and praise God in the power of the name of Jesus. So it is said that Rebecca, having enquired, sprang off the camel. There is a real movement. That is what one would look for in Christ being presented to the saints, presented as He is in Isaac, that there is real movement, real response of heart. She took a veil and covered herself too in a seemly way, a beautiful feminine touch; there is seemliness. But then, there is the power of spring: she sprang off the camel. What enters into all this passage is that it is the testimony that is in mind. It is what is to go on and what is going on here up to this present time that is in mind in this passage. It is briefly stated but it is typically, dear brethren, what we are enjoying at this very moment, the testimony that goes out from a risen glorified Christ to the assembly viewed in this way with a spring in her and seemliness marking her in the position. No pretence, no gold or artificial beautification with her, as it is said in Peter -- I mean that is the idea in the New Testament -- it is what is spiritual, and how beautiful that is as the Spirit of God depicts what He intends to convey to us. He depicts such facts as He intends to create an impression in us as to what the assembly is; and, of course,

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Rebecca is but a type of ourselves. And so she is leadable now; one has often referred to that, but it is a very practical thing: he led her into his mother's tent and he was comforted. It does not say he was grieved about his mother's death, as it does of Abraham when Sarah died; it is the release from grief that is noted; it is to bring out what Rebecca is, the satisfaction that the Lord finds in this one, one who has the spring and who puts on the veil, and who is leadable. Many of us are not leadable, you know; she is. He led her into his mother Sarah's tent. It does not say he loved her until she was there; that is, it is the assembly in the place of testimony that is lovable to Jesus; it is not yet the assembly in heaven. He loved her there in that position.

Well now, you can see that Rebecca fits into Acts 3, and the type in Acts 3 is brought down to us by the Spirit even to this very moment, so that there may be some little correspondence with the Lord in us in this way of spring. There is a remarkable reference in the types in Leviticus to the creatures that are clean and the creatures that are unclean. Creatures that crawl upon the earth, although they may be four-footed, are unclean. I may listen to all the ministry and speak of it, and yet be on the earth; I have never got the idea of spiritual power to leap off the earth. So in Leviticus 11 there is a difference in this particular case, there are certain ones that have legs above their feet by which they spring up from the earth. There is nothing much to say about them, they are more or less characterised as the others are, but still it is that which saves them that they do have power to leap up sometimes off the earth; there is that relieving feature about them. And so it is that the Lord would remind us that it is not what we hear, or appropriate even, for we may hear things and assimilate them too, like chewing the cud, and

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yet not be clean, for the reason that there is no rising from the earth: we just stay there. When we are in the assembly we are away from home. You understand me, I do not say we can stay very long together; it is not so, because God considers for us: addresses are to be short, prophets are to speak only two or three. The idea is you are perfectly at home while you are there. Do not make it appear that you are away from home while you are there, but that you are enjoying the thing, you are satisfied, you have been made to drink into one Spirit.

Now I think from what I have said you will see that Rebecca fits into the chapter in the Acts from which I have read and that it is the position of the assembly all the way down. The Lord has brought us back to it in some little way, and what I am speaking of now is the spring, that, in respect of Christ, there is a real movement at all times, as soon as He is presented. I have no doubt that Beer-lahai-roi, being the first mention of a well, although it was connected with Hagar, was God's provision, and the Lord would say it is all a question of the Spirit in this matter; He had gone there and He was coming back from there.

I go on to Achsah, a well-known figure too, another type of the assembly, but not as in Sarah's tent; she is in the inheritance. Sarah's tent is not the inheritance of the assembly, it is another side of the position. The Spirit is the earnest of it and the Father "has made us fit for sharing the portion of the saints in light" (Colossians 1:12). So that now it is a question of ability to occupy the inheritance, not merely in words or mental assent, but in a real living way that I can leap, I can spring. It is a question of Caleb, the great inheritance man; he is another wonderful type for us in this sense, a man that steadily went on year after year patiently enduring maybe the jibes of Israel at times, but he went on day in and day out

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with the inheritance in mind. He knew it was a good place; he had tasted it, and he knew that the Lord delighted in him -- "If Jehovah delight in us, then he will bring us into this land", he said. Let us not expect to be brought in unless the Lord delights in us. Is He going to fill heaven with persons who do not please Him? No, beloved brethren, He will have persons whom He delights in, and Caleb understood this. The cumulative wealth of truth that comes down to this moment is seen in this remarkable man, the appreciation of the inheritance of God. There are people who do value the inheritance, maybe very few, but if you come in contact with them they deserve all the respect you can give them, and, if you gave them respect, it is because you value what they value. So we have here a true daughter of a man who valued the inheritance, so she moved her husband to ask her father for a field, but in his presence she seemed to have more encouragement and more liberty than she had earlier. The nearer we get to God, dear brethren, the more liberty we have; you will always find that. You may go to the meeting for prayer, or to your closet with the thought of asking for something, but the nearer you get to God, the more liberty you have; you will ask for more than you thought of asking. So she asked for springs of water and he gave her the upper springs and the lower springs. That is, she had the thought that this position required the power of spring. She already had the power of spring, but how is it to be sustained? It is in the springs of water, the upper springs and the lower springs. We do not know how many. I suppose the plural word shows that it is a continual supply of that which supports us in energy and power in this wonderful position. How can we live in Ephesians, dear brethren, in the realm opened to us in that wonderful epistle? Some of us were saying lately that the apostle Paul had gone to

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Jerusalem about four years before he wrote this epistle, for he was a long time at Caesarea and two years at Rome. Could he have written this epistle at Jerusalem? The environment would have been against him, but he had gone through much and now the whole vista of the inheritance of God is opened up to him by the Spirit. How can we live in these things? Only by the Spirit, and by the Spirit in this plural way, the upper and the lower springs; it is the variety, the unsearchable riches that are involved; there is no slackness in it. See the variety there is even in our little way in these days, how the Lord is helping us. He will help every one of us. It is a question of seeing the need; you are brought into this wonderful position, and you want to be in it in a suitable way. Not simply a field, she was emboldened to ask for what she really needed, springs; and she got the upper and the lower springs, which would fit her down here in regard to the inheritance and which would enable her up there, typically, to enjoy the full liberty and dignity of her portion in Christ. That is what Achsah means as I understand, and we can easily follow that; it applies to each christian here. We are brought into this and we need to make room for the Spirit, not only to keep us here but to enter into and enjoy the great things of God, things which eye hath not seen nor ear heard and which have not come into man's heart to conceive, but which God has prepared for those who love Him.

Well now, I finish with Dan; he is a lion's whelp, we are told. It is a very brief comment on Dan, but a great relief from what is said in Jacob's blessing. He leaps from Bashan. The allusion, I think, is to persons being, it may be, in an inferior spiritual position, or even a wrong position. Bashan is not to be despised, it is divine territory, but it is not Canaan. Now I am not here to criticise, but to state facts.

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There are many of us who are well content with the other side, the wilderness side, of Jordan. Is there power in our souls to get out of it? As we come together in assembly (one never tires of alluding to the collective side for it is there that the concrete thing is worked out fully) is there sufficient power in my soul as I sit down to partake of the Lord's supper, which is a wilderness position, to leave the wilderness? It is a question of where He is, not where I am. Christ is away, but is there power in my soul, as I apprehend Him in the emblems, to get out of the wilderness for the moment, to spring from one position into another? A right position, it may be, certainly the position in the Lord's supper is quite right, but it ceases to be right if I stay there and others are enabled in the power of the Spirit to go further, to go over Jordan in spiritual power. I want to be with them, to move on, and I think that is what is meant here by the brief comment on this remarkable man Daniel He is able to leap from Bashan, to leave one position for another with a spring and a leap. That is what I had in mind, that we might finish with that and be concerned that, as we come together in assembly, we might be in power and that we might understand what enters into the assembly, what possibilities there are as this idea of spring is laid hold of, as we avail ourselves of it. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" (Romans 8:14). That means I have laid hold of the power; the Spirit of God is leading, I am leadable, and I am marked off as one of the sons of God. Now I think that Dan as capable of leaping from Bashan would come under that heading, fitting in with the glorious outline of the tribes as presented by Moses the man of God.

May God bless the word.