Pages 1 - 270 -- 'What the Saints are to God' and Other Ministry, 1938 (Volume 208, excluding three contributions published elsewhere in the New Series).

WHAT THE SAINTS ARE TO GOD

Ephesians 1:17,18; Exodus 19:5,6; Isaiah 43:1,6,7; 2 Chronicles 5:11 - 14

J.T. The passage in Ephesians is generally known to us; it brings before us, perhaps more strikingly than any other, what the saints are to God. We are to know this; it is the subject of the apostle's prayer that we may know this; it is founded on a certain state already there, as he says, "Having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is in you, and the love which ye have towards all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention of you at my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him, being enlightened in the eyes of your heart, so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints". Ephesians 1:15 - 18. The Lord being here, seen as the Father's glory, we have glory in its greatest features and a rich expression, the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints. With this verse in our minds, we may be helped in looking at the Old Testament to see the history of this great subject. The verses read are only representative, for there are many others bearing on the same subject, but Exodus 19 gives us the beginning as regards the position in us. Of course we have to begin with counsel, and God reaching His counsels from His own side, but what is in mind now is to show how the saints are seen practically, that is through creation and through formation, two words used in this

subject. The first thought is obedience; in a way that enters into assembly service as we had it here this morning, what the saints are, and how the saints come before us as God's inheritance; it is not what we are merely according to counsel, but what we are as created and formed. The passage in 2 Chronicles brings the history of it before us, indicative of God's inheritance, what He found in Israel typically, what He finds in us as seen in Ephesians. The glory filling the house would mean that the whole scene, according to what is presented through the priests' services, is delightful to God. It is His inheritance, what He has had in mind all the time in counsel and now has reached. So that the first thought to be considered is obedience. It speaks of God having brought them to Himself on eagles' wings, but now "If ye will hearken to my voice indeed and keep my covenant, then shall ye be my own possession out of all the peoples -- for all the earth is mine -- and ye shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation".

F.W. Would you help us as to being made and formed? You used, I think, those two words in contrast to what we are in counsel.

J.T. I was speaking of the passage from the prophet, as you have no doubt observed Isaiah 43:1, "But now thus saith Jehovah, that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel: Fear not, for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine". And so verse 7, "Every one that is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory: I have formed him, yea, I have made him". A distinction is carried down from the first and second chapters of Genesis; the first speaks of man being created, the second speaks of man being formed or made, which is more the personal operation of God. He was to be in the image of God as created, but then the formation would be more

detail, skill, in the features that He had in mind. It was Christ really, Adam was but a figure of Him that was to come, and we are to be conformed to the image of God's Son.

F.W. Is that dependent on obedience?

J.T. I thought obedience was the basis of all this. Aside from obedience what can God do with us? We have to be subdued, so that it is conditional here, "If ye will hearken to my voice indeed and keep my covenant, then shall ye be my own possession out of all the peoples -- for all the earth is mine -- and ye shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation". The bearing of it would be more public, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation, but it is a question of obedience, hearkening to His voice and keeping His covenant, which has a great bearing today on the saints. What are we, although we may speak of having been converted at a certain time, save as we come under the divine touch and there is formation?

A.F.M. It is as we are subject in His hand we come in for the formation.

J.T. I think that is the way it is. The creation is a sort of basic thought in Genesis 1 involving material. God takes up man as such and forms him, according to Genesis 2, and enters into covenant with him; so that it corresponds here now; we have a moral being, not simply a creation, but God breathed into man's nostrils and he became a living soul on that principle, which meant that he was not only created, but made a moral being that God could act upon, the moral being meaning that there is that in us that God can affect on moral lines; that was stressed in Exodus 19.

-.U. How far does creation carry us?

J.T. Well, it remains with us. "Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth" Ecclesiastes 12:1; that runs through, you never lose it, nor shall we in

eternity lose the thought of being creatures. The two thoughts run together, creation and generation; I think generation is greater, and the idea of formation, at least in Adam, comes in on that line. God can act, whether through his intelligence, his affections, or his conscience, whatever it be in him.

Ques. You are not looking at it simply as a creature from the hand of a Creator?

J.T. He is that -- God created the heavens and the earth. Then on the fifth day, as regards the fishes, it says, "God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living souls, and let fowl fly above the earth in the expanse of the heavens. And God created the great sea monsters". Genesis 1:20,21. That is the next use of the word 'created' in the history till you come to man -- it is the same word for all, the same word for the great general act of God in creating the heavens and the earth.

Ques. Do you carry it on to the new creation in regard to the saints?

J.T. Quite so, it is carried through. But Genesis 1 helps us; there is nothing said there as to angels; we know they were creatures, of course, but there is very little said about them. It is what is before our eyes that is in mind, and man is created as the great sea monsters were and as the heavens and the earth were: all came under the same word, something made out of nothing, as far as we can see. But when you come to formation, it is not that, the material is there; creation brings the material in, so it is a question of God's skill in making something for Himself peculiarly that He can love and persons that love Him and form His inheritance.

-.B. Does Psalm 139 bear on the thought? "My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them". Psalm 139:15,16.

J.T. Well, that is a good scripture to bring forward now, no doubt it is a hidden allusion to the assembly. Ezekiel 16 helps also -- the beautiful description God gives of Jerusalem. It shows what is in mind in the sense of formation and fashioning; love enters into it. The creation is a great general thought, but, when you come to man, formation implies a being God would have intercourse with, who would reciprocate in his intelligence and his affections too; and of course Jacob comes in for that side.

Eu.R. Does 'voice' in this first scripture in the Old Testament help in relation to that? Does it involve an intimate link between God and His people, this hearkening to His voice?

J.T. A thought that begins in the garden -- Adam heard the voice.

Eu.R. I wondered if we could connect it in any way with the Lord Jesus in Luke's gospel, His genealogy is traced up to Adam and then to God; whether we could link it with "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God", Luke 4:4 and then what is said in Romans, "So also by the obedience of the one" Romans 5:19 -- would that enter into it?

J.T. Quite so. Luke gives us the moral side, the link between God and man.

A.F.M. In the formation we read of in Genesis is Christ before God supremely as the great Model?

J.T. That is what is said; Adam is "the figure of him to come". Romans 5:14. So that God had Christ in His mind; in that way Adam was a figure of what that Man was to be, it is what Christ is really, and our being conformed to Him in the most exalted way: that we might be "conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be the firstborn among many brethren". Romans 8:29.

C.G. Peter, in quoting this passage in Exodus, speaks of disobedience. Is your thought that the first evidence of God's work coming to light is the thought of obedience?

J.T. I think that is the evidence of the moral element that man is responding to God. "We thus judge", says the apostle, "that if one died for all, then were all dead" (or "then all have died"). 2 Corinthians 5:14. That is, there is no pulsation in man Godward, hence the necessity for Christ to die to bring out another order of man. We have thus judged; but the death of Christ meant there was no pulsation in man at all towards God: "One died for all, then all have died; and he died for all, that they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised. So that we henceforth know no one according to flesh; but if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer. So if anyone be in Christ, there is a new creation". 2 Corinthians 5:14 - 17. All is dead if Christ had to die; it was imperative; we judge that way. So that God has to begin over again with Christ. Peter says we are sanctified to the obedience of Jesus Christ.

W.H.U. Is the formation you speak of on new creation lines that we recognise there is a new creation and are formed according to that, so that we lose the Jacob character and come out as Israel?

J.T. Yes, it is on family lines now. New creation itself is not a heritage for it extends to inanimate things, though God rejoices in what He creates, He says He will rejoice over Jerusalem with joy. We ought to get on to the generative line, for it is a question of the family, and ultimately of our being conformed to the image of God's Son, and the passage in Isaiah, I think, helps. We have the two thoughts, creation and formation.

Eu.R. Is this principle of obedience essential to us if we are to touch our privilege? The apostle says,

"When your obedience is fulfilled", 2 Corinthians 10:6. Then in Philippians, "As ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence" Philippians 2:12. Does that help?

J.T. Yes, indeed it does. So here I think in Exodus 19 there was a very infantile condition; they were brought by Moses and brought by Jehovah; they are not yet walking. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14 alludes to Numbers 21; it took a good time to get to that, but still they are brought by authority and divine influence to Sinai, and the movement is henceforward by the glory in the tabernacle. But in Numbers 21 it is persons who are no longer governed by their own thoughts or by an objective idea, but by the Spirit and by what is in themselves; they are constituted sons because they are led by the Spirit. Now Exodus 24 advances on the infantile or babe state. They had to be carried like the eagle; all has to be done for the young, although the instincts are there. In Deuteronomy this figure is brought in, but it is an infantile state of things, and God cares thus for a young believer as he comes out of the world; he is borne with more than he is afterwards. But now Moses puts up twelve pillars; that does not mean a babe, that does not mean the saints are being cared for now as babes; it means men. Israel is to be composed of men able to do things in relation to one another, able to work in love together; for that is what is in the mind of Moses. So now he says there are young men in the priestly service, as much as to say, there is a little bit of growth. That shows the line on which God is coming into His inheritance; it is not in babes, not that He does not love the saints as babes, but He is thinking of men; so Corinthians stresses, "Quit you like men". 1 Corinthians 16:13.

Ques. Do you suggest formation?

J.T. Quite so; there is some formation in the young man, not only physically, but morally. I believe the Lord is continually keeping before us all these things in relation to assembly service, for that is the thought in His mind just now. The great thing is to get them fitted into our minds, and then we can sit down together. The Corinthians were babes, hence they did not know how to behave themselves in the assembly; they behaved naughtily, as it were playing with toys, like little children. So Moses uses young men, and the thing is done well.

Ques. Is Paul seeking right formation when he says, "I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you", Galatians 4:19?

J.T. Quite so. They were legal and he wanted to set them free in sonship. The thought is that Christ should be fixedly in our souls as sons.

W.H.U. Would there be any connection between the pillars and the young men who went to sacrifice?

J.T. I think it is to show the progress made, so they are able to serve God in offering sacrifices.

Eu.R. We are intended to grow our own wings in time; it says, "They shall mount up with wings as eagles". Isaiah 40:31.

J.T. Quite so.

J.C.T. "Until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God", Ephesians 4:13 is that in mind in the twelve pillars?

J.T. Quite so. They are doing things themselves and doing them well, for they are marked by obedience. All this leads up to David and Solomon. What were you going to say?

F.W. I was only going to remark that this initially broke down through disobedience, but God starts to build the thing up again on the basis of obedience, both here and with us. We have much addressed to us as to the service of God, but are we obedient?

Eu.R. It says, "If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land". Isaiah 1:19

J.T. Yes. As we have said, they took possession of the land, according to Joshua 8. Deuteronomy 33 required that they should have done that as soon as they went in, but it was deferred. But now they surround the ark and offer burnt offerings and peace offerings. We want to follow up the thread of obedience and progress involving formation, young men and then men. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God"; Romans 8:14 that comes in in Numbers. They are now going into the land and there is a new priesthood, and presently a new leader, Joshua. Joshua was there all the time and Eleazar too, but now Moses and Aaron are to give place to them.

Eu.R. And that is because this obedience and formation had come in.

J.T. That is it. With Moses and Aaron the point is obedience. Romans gives subjection and priesthood. The subject person is developed into a priest, so that he presents his body. Then you go on till you come to the riches of His inheritance in the saints.

Eu.R. Had you anything more in your mind as to Isaiah?

J.T. These bits are like our ministry meetings. Someone stands up and brings out one thought, then someone else brings out another, and we cannot at first perhaps see the connection. But how beautiful this is, "Fear not, for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine".

Eu.R. Why does he say in verse 1, "I have called thee by thy name", and in verse 7, "Every one that is called by my name"?

J.T. Well, that would mean that each of us has taken on that, giving us a peculiar place with God.

As it is said to Philadelphia, "Thou ... hast not denied my name". Revelation 3:8.

W.B. Does formation take place primarily in our local settings?

J.T. That is the next thing to get hold of. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God". Romans 8:14. Numbers shows that after the brazen serpent, the condemnation of sin in the flesh, Israel goes forward itself without any mention of the tabernacle; it is the Spirit now, they are men now moving of themselves.

Rem. So that, in coming into the meeting, the Spirit has His place with us.

J.T. Yes, it is the Lord's matter as we sit down together each in his place; that is the first thing. Then who takes part? Well, someone does freshly, and it is a young man, perhaps; but then we can proceed, and "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God". Romans 8:14. The tabernacle is in view in the Lord's supper, it begins in Exodus; Exodus is the given type, I think, of the Lord's supper. Then you think how beautiful the saints are; they are God's blest people. The Lord said, "Blessed are your eyes", Matthew 13:16 your very eyes, and all your organs.

Eu.R. In the saints being beautiful under God's eye there is a readiness for the headship of Christ.

J.T. Yes, but you can see how God would turn your thoughts to the brethren. You say, Christ is everything; of course, but it is in the new man that Christ is everything in Colossians. The new man is "renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him" Colossians 3:10 -- that is, he is like Christ, Christ is everything there now, but then do not forget the new man.

Eu.R. The saints in that character.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Would that be seen in the saints being justified and glorified?

J.T. Quite so, the apostle goes back to predestination.

Rem. In Isaiah 44 it says, "I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground; I will pour my Spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring. And they shall spring up among the grass, as willows by the watercourses. One shall say, I am Jehovah's; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall write with his hand: I am Jehovah's, and surname himself by the name of Israel" Isaiah 44:3 - 5. The surname would imply the family name.

J.T. Yes, he will subscribe himself by the name of Israel; he comes to the spiritual family as formed. So we can see, I think, how Balaam is used; God wants to bring out what He sees in the saints.

Eu.R. So it is very serious for me to say anything against them.

J.T. Hence the unmitigated judgment against Balaam, for he tried to corrupt them. The idea was, I cannot say anything against them, but I will try to corrupt them.

J.C.T. Mr. Darby puts a note to the word 'surname' which implies fondness of affection.

J.T. That is very appealing; it ought to appeal to young people.

Ques. Should we begin the morning meeting with the thought, we being many are one loaf, before we go on?

J.T. Well, that comes in in the early part; it is really mentioned in regard of the fellowship. It comes in in the early part because of the bread or loaf involving subjection, but now we are coming to sonship, "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14 -- that is Numbers 21. God gives Balaam a view of them, and they are all perfect, there is finality in God's mind, the point reached in the condition of sonship. Then the next

thing, in a general way, is they are numbered for the inheritance. Balaam's corruption is dealt with in chapter 25; then the daughters of Zelophehad get their inheritance, and God says, I will number you, so that you all know you are to be there. But then Deuteronomy comes in, which is something like headship; it is Moses speaking of himself, and it is called another covenant, beside the one God made with them in Horeb. It is a double thing, to give us sure ground in going into the land, that we may go in in certainty of soul. And then Moses ends with blessing the people, as already remarked. It is a question now of what God is to have, and every true servant of God is looking at the saints as to what they are to God, how he can make them better for God. Joshua and Eleazar both refer to the spiritual help we get so that we are in the land in our intelligence; and then of course we go on to David and Solomon. We get the great end in the passage we read in 2 Chronicles; there we get the beautiful thought of God's glory taking charge of the whole position, typically what the saints are to Him, not only as subject and as sons, but in the way they serve, the beautiful unity in the service, the perfect unison before God. That is my primary thought in all this.

Eu.R. Would there be a similar touch when the tribes came to David at Hebron and anointed him king and David made a covenant with them; would that be Christ giving us firm relations with Himself in view of a world out of death? They recognise they are of him, and then he makes a covenant with them.

J.T. I think that is where formation applies; it is under David and Solomon, I think, that the thought is seen. Solomon is just a counterpart of David. I have no doubt that is where formation is seen in its fulness in the tribes. There was formation in the

wilderness in sonship, but under headship, which David represents, there is a double thought of it in the twenty-four courses; the thought is intensified.

Eu.R. Does it imply that the tribes are so unified they can become, nationalised all under one man?

J.T. Yes, all under one man; all in keeping with that great thought, the man of God's choice.

A.F.M. David, in that section, rises up as head and addresses God as Head in view of all this being united in one expression.

J.T. It was all one thought in 1 Chronicles 29; the nation is formed according to divine thoughts 1 Chronicles 29:20 - 22. There is perfect unity nationally from the Head down; there is the immensity and richness of the offerings, then there is the unison in song.

-.B. Will you say a word as to verses 11 to 14 of 2 Chronicles 5? "And it came to pass when the priests were come out of the holy place (for all the priests that were present were hallowed without observing the courses; and the Levites the singers, all they of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, clad in byssus, with cymbals and lutes and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them a hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets), -- it came to pass when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one voice to be heard in praising and thanking Jehovah; and when they lifted up their voice with trumpets, and cymbals, and instruments of music, and praised Jehovah: For he is good, for his loving-kindness endureth for ever; that then the house, the house of Jehovah, was filled with a cloud, and the priests could not stand to do their service because of the cloud; for the glory of Jehovah had filled the house of God".

J.T. A wonderful scene. And that parenthesis is to show that any discrepancy there may have been does not interfere with the great general thought.

-.S. Is that a point we should reach in the morning meeting if we were right?

J.T. That is just the point, the beautiful unison of sound.

-.B. How would that work out locally when it says, "the priests could not stand to do their service because of the cloud"?

J.T. I think it means that the official side ceases; we reach what we shall have eternally in heaven. It does not mean the persons were not recognised, but that the official side ceases as we merge now into the primary thoughts of God, which would be our eternal position; we shall not serve as priests, but as sons.

-.B. Would the thought of silence come in fittingly, the silence of power?

J.T. Just so, if we have power to abstract ourselves even for half a minute. It is a question of power in our souls to do that.

Eu.R. You said something about the service standing related to the glory in a peculiar way.

J.T. Quite so. The whole position refers to the quality and dignity of the saints. That is what is meant. The official side is protected, but it is no longer needed. There is such power now that, however short it may be, there is the sense that we are with God according to His eternal purpose as sons before Him.

J.C.T. Is there a difference between this thought of formation and the thought of transformation in 2 Corinthians 3?

J.T. That would enter into it, of course; that comes into assembly service -- as we behold the glory we are to be transformed. It is a real change inwardly, not a mere external change.

A.F.M. Does the glory filling the house mean sons exactly responding to God and expressing Him?

It says the glory filled the house of God. Is glory the expression of God?

J.T. Yes, but it is as filling us: we are capable of being filled. The woods in the temple and the other furniture all refer to the saints, to ourselves as formed of God and set in that magnificence, so that there is room for the glory in our hearts.

Eu.R. Would it be right to say that it is a new creation scene and the sons are at home in it and the glory is filling it?

J.T. Well, it is a "better and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, (that is, not of this creation)", Hebrews 9:11.

WORKING WITH GOD

John 5:17 - 21; 1 Corinthians 3:9 (first clause); 1 Samuel 14:45

I have in mind to speak about working with God. Service is useless, or worse, unless we have this in mind; the Lord says, "He that gathereth not with me scattereth". Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23. This very remarkable passage in John 5 brings out what is in mind, for we have to learn everything from Christ. If it be a question of grace and acceptableness in our service we have to learn from Him as Son. All dignity and glory in operations stand in that connection, so that with God it is not simply that things are done, but done well, and done with adornment and glory. So the Lord here begins answering His own; having done one work, of which He speaks, He says, "My Father worketh hitherto", and then He adds, "and I work". They were working together. No more glorious thought as to operations can come into our minds than operations jointly by the Father and the Son. This brings out, dear brethren, that we should not only learn, but admire. It is a good acquisition -- the ability to admire what is transcendently beyond us, or even what is on our level. So in the divine operations as presented to us; indeed, as Jehovah Himself describes them to Job, and requires of Job to answer Him. "Gird up now thy loins like a man", Job 38:3, Job 40:7. God says. It is worth noticing, for if we are less than a man we scarcely admire what is beyond us; we are apt to be jealous of others. So that we see in a man like Peter admiration and praise for a fellow-worker with God: it is expressed in his remark, "Our beloved brother Paul", 2 Peter 3:15 he acknowledging Paul's writings as on the very highest level, as Scripture, and according to the Lord's thought they would work together as one. So Jehovah says to Job, "Gird up now thy loins like a man", Job 38:3, Job 40:7.

for although he might find speeches to overcome his critics, his so-called friends, he was really speaking like a babe, like a Corinthian: they were babes in Christ, but still babes. God, in speaking to a man like that, would raise him to a higher level; He would speak to him as a man, and therefore would have him answer as a man. Jehovah says, "Where wast thou when I founded the earth?". Job 38:3. Job would have to say, 'Well, that is enough, I have no status on that line'. Jehovah says, "when the morning stars sang together". Job 38:7. It was a living state of things there when God began to operate, "and all the sons of God shouted for joy" -- not one exempt. It was a jubilant state of things. It pleased God, and He did not forget it -- it rejoiced His heart as His creatures were created. Their creation is not recorded in Genesis 1, but they were there before the earth evidently, as if God would have sympathetic creatures in His great undertakings, in the sphere in which love would show itself, even on this very earth where we are. There were a great many sons of God, according to Revelation, and are still. So we have a clue as to the work of God, and if angels are to join in, they are to understand and join in sympathetically. But they, like ourselves, would see the complete thought in Christ. That must be so for He is the Firstborn of all creation, Lord of angels, and so on. So He is before all things, coming in later historically, but He has precedence morally of everything and every person, save God Himself, of course.

So one should admire a workman. John the baptist said of Him, "He ... is preferred before me, for he was before me", John 1:15 that is as to His Person. No one can be with God who has a doubt as to the personality and deity of Jesus. There is to be no tolerance at all of any difference of thought as to

that, nor can there be any sympathy with God as long as there is a doubt as to the personality of Jesus. He is before all things; that is what Colossians would teach us. If we are to operate we are to learn from Christ, not angels, for He, though coming in later in manhood, was before all; and hence throughout Scripture, in this manner, we have the father and son, not only father. That is the supreme thought in relation to that which answers to the mind and affections of God; it is in connection with the Father and the Son. You do not get the full glory of a father without the son, or the full glory of a son without the father. "The Word became flesh, and dwelt [or tabernacled] among us (and we have contemplated his glory ... )". John 1:14. That is the idea to get into our souls. So we get the thought in Abraham and Isaac: how beautiful is the thought as they move to the mount of Moriah; they had a conversation between them, reciprocal exchange of words. Then in Jacob and Joseph -- father and son; the father loved the son, for Jacob loved Joseph. It is in the radiation of the light that the spiritual charm is seen. "We have contemplated his glory", John the evangelist says, "a glory as of an only-begotten with a father, full of grace and truth". John 1:14. So that we get Jacob and Joseph. Joseph was not always equal to the position; great man though he was, he was not equal to the position in Genesis 48, when he said, "Not so, my father". Genesis 48:18. That is not the glory of sonship. That is what Joseph said, but Jacob, as it will be seen, is right, but still he blesses Joseph as a son. Then we get David and Solomon, beautiful representation anticipatively of the Father and Son, David rising at the end of his life to the full thought of father and son, as I might say. He honours Solomon and places him on the throne beside him. What a picture if we can discern; it is for us to see it, to be charmed with the beautiful

pictures of Scripture of the coming in of this wonderful relation between divine Persons so that they are working together. Solomon was a young man, but David is handing over to him a wonderful matter, administrative, structural, and there is no discrepancy as far as Scripture presents. The father and son are there, royalty in the father and the son; every presentation has its own particular glory; it is one glory after another in which the Son Himself appears.

So the Lord says, "My Father worketh hitherto and I work", the announcement of a great fact, that God was His Father; the Jews did not like that. We have to be on our guard about the Jews, hence, at the time of the great announcement of our being introduced into the circle of the Father and the Son (John 20) the disciples shut the doors against the Jews. These legal elements spoil the whole matter. Paul says we are working with God, and that is what is needed. If we take the history of christendom it is not that; it began with that, with men of like passions as ourselves. The Lord would show in these wonderful men the handiwork of the past, what workmanship is, and we must grasp the divine mind, what the Father and the Son are really going on with. I have no doubt that the allusion in John to the glory of the Son, the glory of an only-begotten with a father, full of grace and truth, alludes to the matter on hand, namely, the work of God. Full of grace and truth -- these are the great requisites if we are to work with God, as we have in the twelve apostles and Paul. John shows us the Persons in their holy relations into which they have come: Luke also does, but enlarges on this matter of grace and truth. Grace first. No one can work with God unless he has grace in his soul. "By grace ye are saved". Ephesians 2:8. The conditions here in which we are to operate require the supply of grace, then truth. They

are not to be reversed; it is grace and truth, so that they subsist in Jesus Christ; they are there. He is now full of what is requisite; they must be there, namely grace and truth. So that the apostle Paul, in saying that he and Silvanus were fellow-labourers with God, meant that they were furnished in this way. If a man presents himself for employment with God he must have requisites. Matthew in chapter 20 presents men coming in early in the day; they bargained with the householder and he took them on, but they were not the kind he wanted. God does not want those who make a bargain with Him or ask for a salary. That feature does not belong to the work of God. He is a wonderful Employer, I speak reverently, but He has His own requirements, and Paul says, we are amongst His workmen. Let no one think he can do as he wishes, as if God has nothing to say to him. Working with an archbishop is not working with God; there may be christians doing this, but the point is are you working with God. God has work to be done, and Paul says, I am amongst those workers; God made him that; so he says in the next epistle, "Giving no manner of offence in anything, that the ministry be not blamed". 2 Corinthians 6:3. He would not do anything which would discredit the position but "commending ourselves as God's ministers". 2 Corinthians 6:4. We learn all this from Jesus. The Lord worked in humility, as the Father works (John 5:19).

You can see, dear brethren, the level on which these operations are going on. What the Father does the Son does, and what the Father does He shows the Son. One takes off one's shoes, as it were, when one thinks of a divine Person speaking in this way. It is a question of what the Father does, and the Son works in line with the Father. He does nothing of Himself. The lowliness of Jesus is food for our souls; and yet in the same text there is the assertion

of the equality with the Father -- the Son with the Father. There is no danger of any doubt as to the personality of the Lord Jesus, but we learn how things are to be done. The apostle Paul understood that it was a matter of Father and Son; it is the dispensation of grace, that is, Father and Son, and all workmanship must be in that connection, otherwise we are not working with God.

In 1 Samuel we see how a son worked, but not with his father. Jonathan undertakes the work, and he tells not his father. There are many different religious authorities, and the word 'father' has a great place in these bodies. The authority of these so-called fathers is asserted in those circles. The leading personalities are called fathers, even holy fathers. Think of a man assuming such a title, one which was ascribed by the Lord Jesus Christ to His Father. If I were in such an association as that and I was concerned about what was due to God, I would not tell any one of those so-called fathers what I was going to do. It is just as well not to tell them at all; you will be the worse off if you do. They will tie your hands and feet if they can. Understand, I am not attacking, but speaking the truth for the benefit of all of us in our service, and if one here has a father like Saul, do not tell him; he will hamper you. He hampered Jonathan. Saul forbade anyone to take food, the very thing they needed. Hunger will not help a soldier. This professed leader forbids these soldiers to eat; Jonathan did not hear it. The less you hear of such injunctions the better.

What I am speaking about is how a christian, one who is potentially a workman of God, may escape from the domination of such authority as Saul represents. Many of our brethren suffer from such and if light of God comes into our souls about the Father and the Son let us ignore these other influences. Jonathan did not tell his father, but the

situation was desperate as to the people of God. Philistines were everywhere and had all the instruments of warfare. None of the Israelites had swords except Saul and Jonathan. What is to be done? Well, if God works, the workmen will not tell such a father as Saul. God has intervened for the deliverance of His people; we are sharing in that now. We know how it happened. Those who wrought at the outset did not tell those fathers; they did not ask leave of their superiors. They went and did the work. They had recourse to private houses and the like instead of cathedrals. They would open their Bibles and understand what was to be done. They looked at the prophetic map. They prayed to their Father in secret and came in for the knowledge of His mind. He will say in secret, 'Well, My Son is the pattern'. On the mountain Moses was shown the pattern. So the Son of God is a pattern for the labourers. The relation between father and son belongs to the labourers; we are brought into it. True sons are workmen and will work as bondmen, for they have the affection and intelligence of sons and know what to do. No others do, save sons. So the Lord is the pattern. I am making due allowance for His personal deity in all these things. He has the pre-eminence.

Saul is floundering about and the people are at their wits' end. One pities them; they had refused the light of David which had already come in. A true exercised christian in such an association would say, 'I am going to take the matter in hand'. Jonathan no doubt had a time of prayer with God. It does not say so, but we have the Spirit of God who lets us, into the secret of what is behind. It says Elijah prayed for rain, but he prayed also for drought. Jonathan had been with God; God is his Father in truth; Saul would tie him up, he did as far as he could. Then we find Jonathan is busy

working with God. There are two rocks in the path, one on either side, but it does not deter him; he is working with God and he has an armour-bearer who is with him, and he is ready to give a lead, a great thing in the work of God. The spiritual lead is so essential for brothers and sisters. All are led on. Everyone can be in it. Everyone according to the gift of grace can come into this wonderful state of things. See Luke 8, for instance. In Luke 7 the woman partakes of the grace of Christ and gets forgiveness and serves. She loves much and so she is forgiven much. This woman is the idea. She is serving and becomes part of the administrative system. In Luke 8 we find the Lord preaches the kingdom, going from city to city and village to village, and the twelve and the women are with Him. I am speaking to the sisters now. Amongst them is Mary Magdalene, out of whom went seven demons, possessing such a state of soul that there is no room for the demons now. They were not cast out; they went out. She is now for the Lord's service. They will never come back. Her state is reversed and it is impossible for the demons to come back, and instead of the demons she is serving Christ with her substance. You say, I have no gift, but you are part of the system and have been given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ, and the next thing is to use it. She used it and so should every woman minister to Christ of her substance. No one can say he has not substance.

Jonathan gives the idea of leading the brethren into workmanship with God. Every one of us can come into it. Jonathan has given the lead. Wherever love is this is the outcome. How humbly he serves. He crawls on his hands and feet. All things are possible with God. See how the workman loves to lead to it, so we can see here how we have to be humble. How lowlily the Lord moves on until He

comes to Gethsemane. "Thy will be done". Matthew 26:42. He is working with His Father, so is Jonathan -- he is working with God. Many of our brethren are working with Saul, but he binds them up hands and feet. He has not the truth of sonship, it is not the father and son, in the true sense, but the kind of fatherhood that would hinder, and the man that will not tell them will soon be out and in the truth of the true Father and Son.

Now as to this matter of the honey, Saul forbade them to take it for food. Think of the folly of it; think of the folly of mere religiousness, to what lengths it will go to gratify its own pride at the expense of the workmen and testimony of God! But here was a true man working with God. There was honey, we are told. You may say that was forbidden, honey, the characteristic food of the land of Canaan which was flowing with milk and honey. No one could take it and yet he must fight. Is it not well to creep out and deny them any information about it? Say nothing to them. Jonathan crept on his hands and feet, filling a lowly place and creeping away from them. God was with him in doing it. One man and his armour-bearer and a great victory for the Lord.

We are told that the honey flowed 1 Samuel 14:26. See here is the folly of Saul's system, forbidding a warrior to take that food that God so bountifully provided! Jonathan heard not -- thank God he did not. If all Israel's warriors had heard not, there would be a victory, but they are not allowed to take of the food of the land of Canaan. The oath is upon them and hence the result is that they cannot fight as warriors. Well now, the crisis comes and Saul is ready to put his son to death, but the matter was not in his hands. God does not allow it. As we hold to the truth of the Father and Son, and work in that light and truth, and we are not afraid, we shall

continue in the work. Jonathan shows the way and God takes account of it. So the verse says, "The people said unto Saul, Shall Jonathan die, who hath wrought this great salvation in Israel? God forbid: as the Lord liveth, there shall not one hair of his head fall to the ground; for he hath wrought with God this day" 1 Samuel 14:45.

Well, that is the sequel of all that I have been saying. We need not fear. It is the dispensation of grace. It is a matter of working with God or our work is of no use -- not telling the ecclesiastical authorities. The Lord Jesus gave the authority to His bondmen, not to the church dignitaries. His bondmen are to use it as the great and blessed Bondman used it, even as the Son working with the Father. Thank God there is that.

THE ONENESS OF THE BODY

Exodus 12:46,47; 1 Kings 17:13; 1 Corinthians 10:16 (last clause),17

J.T. These scriptures are selected in the hope that we may learn through them how the body of Christ, as composed of all believers, is reached in the history of believers from the beginning. These scriptures, and others like them in the Old and the New Testaments: present the whole idea as applied to persons, or as applied to Christ or God or to the saints. The Old Testament laid down originally that "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah" (Deuteronomy 6:4); that was foundational, running through. See also Zechariah 14:9. In the New Testament we have the thought applied to our calling, "One body and one Spirit" and "one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all" Ephesians 4:4 - 6, each great idea carrying the whole thought. So "to us there is one God, the Father ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ", 1 Corinthians 8:6. The Deity may be spoken of, either in the Father or in the Son or in the Spirit, but there is never any idea or suggestion of three deities -- always one. So the thoughts in these scriptures will suffice us to consider this subject. First the passover, the law requiring that a bone should not be broken -- that is, it is a whole thought, it is Christ, but, as it were, the whole thought as to Him, not partial. Then in Elijah we have what corresponds, namely, a cake, a little cake but still a whole thought. He first asked for a morsel of bread, but he eventually asked for a little cake to be made for him first; so, if we partake of the passover, "our passover", as it says, "sacrificed for us" 1 Corinthians 5:7 -- God would have His portion in the cake something that is the outcome of exercise, which the

cake suggests, however small. It is not part of a cake, but a cake, a little one but still a cake. Then in the third scripture we have the two thoughts combined; that is, the body of Christ, His own personal body which He took and in which He died, and out of that develops: "We, being many, are one loaf, one body" -- this all centring in the Lord's supper. We shall have, of course, in connection with the passover, to speak of what is initial in the believer's history, how this thought is there -- a constitutional thought, as we may call it -- from the very outset. The New Testament says, "Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth" 1 Corinthians 5:7,8, but it is Christ as a whole, as we may say, not a divided Christ; for that is the word the apostle uses in this epistle, "Is Christ divided?". 1 Corinthians 1:13. He is not divided; He is to be apprehended and appropriated as food in the passover, which presents the whole Person in a particular way, that is, a sacrificial way, the Lamb of God.

A.C. In the verse read it says, "In one house shall it be eaten".

J.T. Showing that it is on family lines, for God builds up the structure in that way on family lines. It develops into a nation in Israel, and in us it is one body.

E.B.G. Does the thought of sacrifice lie behind all these scriptures? In Exodus it is the passover; then in regard to the woman in Kings, the handful of meal seems to be all that was between her and death, and she is asked to surrender that; then there is the thought of Christ our passover, which you have alluded to.

J.T. I think that is good -- the sacrificial thought, for, aside from it, our spiritual constitution must be

extremely defective. John the baptist refers to the sacrifice; he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world". John 1:29. He saw in Him what was sacrificial, as coming to him, and that must enter into our constitution as believers. We shall be very wanting and without correspondence entirely to Christ unless the sacrificial element is in our constitution.

Ques. What effect has the sacrificial side upon our constitution on our side in our walk and pathway?

J.T. It affects us so that we are persons who sacrifice; "To do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased" Hebrews 13:16, and many other such scriptures. On a higher level, we are constituted priests according to Peter "to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ", 1 Peter 2:5. The word carries with it the thought of surrender; sacrifice costs us something; it cost Jesus Himself His life.

Rem. The whole thought is referred to in John 1"Behold the Lamb of God", John 1:36 and towards the end of the gospel it is referred to by John the evangelist.

J.T. It carries the whole thought through in the sacrifice of Christ, "A bone of him shall not be broken". John 19:36. In any sacrifice our Lord went through, it is Himself, it is the whole Christ, not a partial one. The failure to see this truth tends to sectarianism. "Is Christ divided?", 1 Corinthians 1:13 says the apostle; if He is not divided, then the saints should not be divided. If they are on a sacrificial line they will not be divided, they will be contributory to the whole thought, leading up to the truth of the assembly as the body of Christ.

E.L.M. At the beginning of the chapter there is provision made: if the house be too small, then the neighbour is called in; would that make allowance

for weakness on our part in apprehension, but the thought must be maintained?

J.T. Yes, so that, even if you call another in, the oneness of the sacrifice is maintained -- it is in one house.

E.L.M. Was that element of weakness at Corinth, and would the verse you are quoting, "Is Christ divided?", 1 Corinthians 1:13 guard against any sectarian thought?

J.T. That is what I thought. It is significant that the first rebuke we get in the epistle, which is full of admonition and correction, is that there were divisions among them; the whole idea must be preserved. So in a local meeting; in this city there may be three subdivisions, but the whole idea must be maintained -- it is one idea. If another nearby meeting is invited, that does not alter the position one iota. No matter how many meetings are invited or represented, it is a whole thought.

T.T. In the tabernacle there was a bar called the "middle bar" in the midst of the boards, reaching from one end to the other Exodus 26:28; would that have any bearing on this?

J.T. It is the same thought -- one tabernacle; it is a sort of binding thought.

W.S.S. I was thinking of what is said about Paul. The Lord said, "I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake". Acts 9:16. The truth of the body was in view, and I am wondering whether the entering into the truth of the body necessarily involves suffering.

J.T. I think it does. It was the thing that was in the Lord's mind when He spoke to Saul of Tarsus, "Why persecutest thou me?" Acts 9:4. The "me" would be the saints as one body; they were suffering. Paul was to be shown how much he must suffer.

Ques. I am not quite sure if I have your thought. When the apostle said, "The Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me", Galatians 2:20

would that touch what you have before you at all?

J.T. Well, the Lord sacrificed to have all of us, and the thought in the passover is, I think, that we appropriate that as food and it enters into the spiritual constitution so that each takes on a sacrificial attitude. Sacrificing is, in a way, the very essence of christianity. So that when John saw the Lord Jesus coming to him he said, "Behold the Lamb of God", John 1:29 meaning that he saw in Him what was here in the types. It is a Person greater than you or me, for the passover suggests the greatness of Christ, One who carries the thing through. Then he says, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" John 1:29 -- an immense thought! Only a divine Person could undertake it, but He undertook it sacrificially. I believe the word here comes in in the instructions, possibly a late item in the instructions, but it is because you are all the more prepared now. The passover has a great place throughout the types, and this coming in so late is alluded to again in Numbers 9, where the passover might be celebrated a month later because of unspirituality. Yet this whole thought must be maintained, it must always be in mind, "A bone of him shall not be broken". John 19:36.

Ques. In your reference to the passover and Christ having been sacrificed, the previous verse says, "Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump" 1 Corinthians 5:7; is that the idea in mind in 1 Kings where we have the cake, a complete thought?

J.T. That is good. A new lump, and he says, "according as ye are unleavened", a comforting thought as to the company locally; it is abstractly unleavened. So the cake would stand on the side of the saints, I think, what the saints are, and that is what Elijah had in mind; he asked for a morsel first. Speaking to the woman he says, "Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thine hand", 1 Kings 17:11

and then she says, "I have not a cake, but an handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse", 1 Kings 17:12 and so on. And Elijah said to her, "Make me thereof a little cake first, and bring it unto me". It seems as if the local conditions were in mind when she spoke about the meal. He had spoken of a morsel of bread, but she had not a cake, she said, but she had the meal; she had the means of making a cake. Spiritually it would mean that, even in a low condition, the whole thought may be there. Saints are sometimes a great deal better off than they think they are.

E.L.M. Is that exemplified in Mark 8? The disciples had taken no bread with them on board the vessel save one loaf, as though they had overlooked that; it was there all the time.

J.T. Yes, that was it; they had the whole thought.

E.L.M. Is that what you mean in saying that the saints are not so badly off as possibly they think they are?

J.T. I think that is a very practical thought, for we are apt to take low conditions for granted and perhaps be too impoverished in our thoughts, as the widow of whom we read; she did not realise what she had in the house. If there is a little meal, however small, even a handful -- she says, "An handful of meal" -- well, that is something, a measured amount. And it is kept in a right place; a barrel is where it should be kept. There is very little; things are very impoverished and the barrel is almost empty, but still there is a little there, and that seems to have emboldened the prophet to ask for the cake. So I think in ministering, the initial thought would be to discover what there is in the place and make the most of that. The first meeting may bring out more than you have anticipated, and you may be encouraged to bring out great thoughts about Christ and about the saints too. But I think that handful

of meal means some measured amount of knowledge and appreciation of Christ.

A.C. Have you in mind that prophetic ministry would help us in a locality to use what there is?

J.T. I think it bears on that very decidedly. You say, 'We have not a gifted brother here; I do not think we are equal to the ministry'; but then, you cannot be sure. One brother may come with something and another brother may get something while sitting there and that is the sovereign side. You can never be sure what the Lord will do in that way: He may take up someone you have never thought of.

-.A. Do you think the little oil suggested a cake to the prophet?

J.T. Well, she says, "An handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse" 1 Kings 17:12 -- evidently both would be in mind; possibly the one referring to the apprehension we have of Christ in His humanity as coming in manhood, and the other to the Spirit; so that there is the means for a cake, a whole thought. As we have been remarking as to a ministry meeting, you may get a good time if you are simple about it and make allowance for what there may be there. A handful is a small amount, but measured; and the oil is a small amount, but in a cruse. In each case the material was where it should be; it is not held loosely, it is held in a vessel; things are therefore in order, and God may do more than I expect, for the handful would be what a brother might have in his soul. But then there is that which is revealed to one sitting by -- one who is capable of having a thing revealed to him. He is fundamentally, in christianity, yielding to Christ and the Spirit, so that the Spirit can operate in him.

W.S. Would you say it was right, in coming together to a ministry meeting, to have something definitely before you, although you may not give it out?

J.T. I would; I believe we may rightly have something before us, for 1 Corinthians 14, dealing with this matter, says, "Every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine", 1 Corinthians 14:26,or whatever it may be; a prophet may have something and he may stand up and give it out. But then there is the thought of something being revealed to one sitting by; maybe he did not bring anything, but he is available for revelation. That is a great matter, it belongs to christianity, to be ready for a revelation; the spirit of wisdom and revelation is the thing the apostle prays for for us. If I have that spirit, I am available for the Spirit of God to reveal something to me. If so and you are speaking, you might sit down; if you are in the sense of the organism you know you have finished; the Spirit has withdrawn His power from you, for He is going to use someone else. The order is one at a time; it is one idea all the time. Therefore the one who has the revelation would suggest the sovereign side, the Spirit giving something at the moment.

Ques. Would you always look for a prophetic word in one of these meetings?

J.T. Well, it might not be exactly that, because it says, "How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying". 1 Corinthians 14:26. Then "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets". 1 Corinthians 14:29 - 32. Prophecy is the main thought, but it seems as if room is made for these other things; they may be needed; we may need teaching, or a psalm which would involve

experience. A brother might be able to speak on those lines, but generally the thought is prophecy.

Ques. In asking the question, I thought that the scripture you read suggested a certain amount of substance in the company. Every company as controlled by the Spirit should have substance, should it not?

J.T. That is, I think, what we see in 1 Kings. The woman had very little, but she had something, and that is what led the prophet to ask for the cake. As we were saying, it was a small amount, but it was measured. She had in her mind that something could be done with it; she could eat and die, but of course that was a reversal of the principle governing the position; eating is to live, and that is what the Spirit of God brings out, "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the Lord sendeth rain upon the earth". 1 Kings 17:14. We can understand spiritually that, if Christ is held in any gathering or in any soul, there is substance that can be utilised, and that does not fail; there is no idea of failure. It is a question of what it is spiritually that Christ on His side will not fail, nor the Spirit either. Prophetic ministry here, it seems to me, made room for what there was in the woman's soul, so you have the dignified word 'house' -- "she, and he, and her house, ate a whole year". 1 Kings 17:15

I.R. In the light of your remarks in connection with the one cake, would we expect, in a meeting for ministry, to find unity of expression, whether it be in; two or three?

J.T. I think that is it -- one person at a time, one idea at a time. The passage shows there is substance there, and then revelation coming in to add to that.

J.W. The exercise of the moment would be to learn to hold the substance in relation to what

Elijah sets forth, the bringing in of the mind of God and learning to hold it.

J.T. That is what comes out. The woman is amenable to the prophet's word. It says, "She went and did according to the word of Elijah; and she, and he, and her house, ate a whole year". 1 Kings 17:15. The word of Elijah would be, of course, a prophetic word governing us, so that we should be on the alert to get it; we should have enlargement, we should have food.

Ques. Did the household of Cornelius afford conditions? Peter said, "I perceive that God is no respecter of persons". Acts 10:34.

J.T. It was one of the pointed features of the position that God comes in by way of revelation, but then there is substance there already. The whole substance in Acts 10 circles around the idea of what is to be eaten.

Ques. Was the Lord challenging the hearts of the disciples when He said, "Give ye them to eat"? Matthew 14:16

J.T. Quite so, they were reminded that they should be ready to provide food.

Ques. I would like to ask, does this apply to any brother in the locality, or must they definitely have gift?

J.T. Of course gift is in mind in the chapter, but it is very significant that it is stressed that it is subject to desire, and the chapter shows that prophecy is what is needed, because it edifies and meets conditions in a remarkable way, as the chapter teaches; the prophets are contemplated right down. But the idea of revelation might bring out that there was someone present who had ability in that way unknown to him before. These meetings bring out what there is in the locality. We cannot always be sure; there may be latent ability which opportunity brings out; we have to remember we are in a day of small things. We cannot look for such

as obtained at Corinth where they came behind in no gift; evidently there was much gift there but badly used. But we are speaking of the possibility of gift being just latent and the opportunity bringing it out.

E.L.M. Would it not be very encouraging to Elijah that what he starts with in the scripture he finds in a moment of apparent defeat; when he was awakened by the angel in the wilderness, he found a cake of bread; the divine thought had not failed?

J.T. It is very remarkable that should come in in his ministry, baken on hot coals, and that the meal and cruse are mentioned only once in 1 Kings 19, but in the end he eats twice -- it is a second meal from that supply. There is the whole thought there too, what he needs. He had begun with the whole thought, but, as far as he knew, there was no Israel left except himself, and he could hardly represent the whole thought, he was only one person; no one person can represent the assembly in any sense. He failed, I think, in carrying through this idea of the little cake; the angel suggests it to him and he eats twice and goes in the strength of that meat forty days and forty nights.

E.L.M. Would the idea of the unity of the whole thought express itself in him in a moment of great spiritual brightness when he built the altar of twelve stones? Did he lapse for a moment from the light which had governed him?

J.T. It seems so. We have the unity, the whole thought, in the passover, and the little cake refers to the unity of God's people, the perfect unity; the twelve refers to the administrative side. It is what is before God and affords a basis for administration, so that I think he was thoroughly in the light of this little cake when he took the twelve stones according to the number of the sons of Jacob and spoke of them as those to whom the word of God came.

He was fully in the light of the position then. Chapter 17 is the unity, the little cake; chapter 18 is the administrative side, I think, in the twelve: that is the same idea, only that it is turned round and individuals are it, usable according to love. That is, I think, what Corinthians brings out, that, while we can be used one by one, used separately, we are used in love, we are not in each other's way.

W.S.S. Chapter 19 is very necessary for us. What Elijah had to be reminded of is very important and we should be reminded of it, the whole thought suggested in the little cake.

J.T. I think so. It is a very important thought, one that ought to lay hold of every young christian, for we shall never fit into the assembly without it.

W.S.S. And it is part of his secret history with God.

J.T. Evidently, you could not have a man like Elijah without secret history with God.

A.H.G. I was thinking of our appreciation of Christ. Have you in mind that we should appreciate in measure every way in which this thought is presented?

J.T. Well, John says, "the Lamb of God". John 1:29. That is a sacrificial thought, but then he goes on to testify that this is the Son of God and that is a sacrificial thought in another setting. It is Christ in either case, only there are so many sides to His Person. The point is to get the whole idea at any given time, not a part of Christ, because that is sectarian, just as the parting of His garments is sectarian.

W.S.S. So that the apprehension of Christ in the way you are speaking of is dependent on what is in the passover, the understanding of the thought of the body. Would that be right?

J.T. Yes, that is what I was thinking. It may be subdivided, for the sake of convenience; it is indicated plainly that there were subdivisions in the

assembly, but it is always the assembly, however many subdivisions there are. But then the difficulty now amongst the brethren is, I believe, that each subdivision is apt to act as though it were the whole, and the whole thought in the city is ignored. It is not simply that we say we are a subdivision, but there ought to be some concrete expressions of it, the more the better. The breaking of bread is not a concrete expression of it, for there are several meetings, and I think 1 Corinthians 14 has in mind that the saints should, as often as possible, have concrete evidence of the oneness of the assembly in any given sphere -- it is the whole assembly coming together in one place.

W.S.S. Our having substance is really consequent on this position being entered into.

J.T. We see how the little substance the woman had is made use of.

A.C. Are we apt to make too much of our meeting-rooms and miss the idea of the assembly in a city? Does Scripture refer to meeting-rooms?

J.T. I think so; we have, for instance, the assembly in a man's house in a given town, at Rome or Ephesus. It is quite obvious that that assembly in that brother's house does not include all.

J.T.S. When you spoke of the breaking of bread not being a concrete example, had you in mind what I think you have called attention to elsewhere, first, "when ye come together in assembly", in 1 Corinthians 11:18, and then, "the whole assembly come together in one place", in 1 Corinthians 14:23?

J.T. Yes, the article is dropped, as you know, in chapter 11 -- we come together in assembly, it is the character of the thing; but in chapter 14 it is the whole assembly, the article is placed before the word 'assembly', meaning that all are there; the sub-divisional idea is dropped, the whole thought is there in a concrete way; thus the man who gets help

through the prophesying reports that God is amongst you of a truth. That would be the saints at Corinth as a whole, God's best in a place, what He has.

E.B.G. I am sure we see the importance of what you are pressing as to oneness. Would the opportunities for such expression be limited to the coming together for ministry and perhaps to a joint reading meeting in a city? Are there any other practical suggestions?

J.T. The point in it seems to be what is publicly beneficial. It is not service Godward that is in mind, but rather what is beneficial to men, to the saints, if God is to bring out what He has in any given place. That is the idea in the administrative side in the assembly, what God is doing in local companies. There is no idea in the scripture of a central or metropolitan company; it is any town or village where there may be an assembly. So you have, in Acts 14, Paul and Barnabas selecting elders for each assembly, and, then they appoint elders in every city, as if a city has the testimony manward in mind; it is a concrete representation in any given place.

Ques. Does it come in in relation to the benefit the city receives -- all administrative work should be done in the light of the oneness?

J.T. Quite so, it is the inner thought. So that they appointed elders for each assembly, that would be, as it were, the assembly as sustaining light, and there is something there that would represent God; An elder is described, he represents one who maintains order, and so a city might have several small subdivisions, but elders being appointed there (the appointment, I believe, is always of elders, not an elder) there is the means of maintaining what is due to God for man's benefit. Hence a man comes in and the secrets of his heart are made manifest, he is convicted and judged of all and falling down on his

face he worships God. He is benefited, but then God has His portion immediately through it.

F.W.W. Would this suggest an assembly in very weak conditions? We often find that small meetings say, We have not the ability here for it. Would this encourage such meetings?

J.T. It is intended to encourage us on that line, and Jehovah's word through the prophet was that the woman was to maintain him, showing there is a great thought attaching to any assembly, however low down, to maintain the testimony, and in order to maintain the testimony -- for that is the word used to Elijah -- there must be the making use of what there is in a place.

F.W.W. The widow collecting two sticks does not suggest anything very large.

J.T. No, she had a very low thought; she was going to eat and die, but at the word of the prophet everything is altered, so that there is the idea of maintenance and the dignified word 'house' is used.

W.S.S. It is very encouraging in connection with small and weak meetings to think of their possibilities in relation to the maintenance of the testimony.

J.T. I think so. I think it is one of the most painful things to think of a meeting being allowed to die out under the very eyes of the meetings nearby, whereas procedure of this kind would lead to revival, the prophetic word bringing God in. What is there there? Maybe a sister, a young person, a sick person, or what not -- but there is revival.

Ques. In a meeting that is dying out, would you look for a revival in the way of an exercise as to taking up things in this way?

J.T. I think that would be the thing. I think we look for too much, the Lord is able to make a little go a long way if we take up the prophetic ministry. See the great thought God had about this woman when He spoke to Elijah about her. She

was a long way off when Jehovah spoke to Elijah about her, and said, "I have commanded a widow woman there to maintain thee". 1 Kings 17:9. You would not think there was ever a command given to her of God.

Ques. Would the whole year suggest maintenance in the varied circumstances of the whole period of testing in every season?

J.T. Well, you see what it says, "She, and he, and her house, ate a whole year", 1 Kings 17:15 we only hear of one boy, the son. They ate a whole year, throughout all the seasons the prophet is maintained rightly, but the woman and her house are maintained too.

A.F.G. Should we take courage from the meal and oil being used, that the meal in the barrel does not waste nor the oil fail in the cruse? If what we have is used, may we feel encouraged that there will be this further supply?

J.T. I think that is the lesson spiritually. It means that some one or ones in the place have an apprehension of Christ, and also of the Spirit -- for there was the oil too -- and they had the apprehension in an orderly way, not held loosely; they valued what they had.

Ques. The prophet was sent directly at the word of the Lord. Would you look that things should be revived in this way in a local meeting, or would you expect it to spring up?

J.T. Well, in either way, for the prophet is sent to be maintained, not to revive, although it was necessary, for the lesson to be learnt is that God fills us with his own great thoughts. He commands -- whatever it may be in the working out of it -- He commanded a widow to maintain the prophet in this case. That is the great thought; it is the testimony that is in mind and the continuance of the testimony in the place. So it is not simply a question of the few saints there may be in the place, but God says,

'I have a testimony in that place and I want it maintained', and in this way you get revival and the prophetic ministry is brought in. So it is not simply that the prophet is maintained, but the testimony is held.

T.T. In a meeting where there are only sisters left, would it be right to carry on the meeting with only brothers visiting?

J.T. Well, it is a question of deciding what is in the place, whether there is this handful of meal, for that may be in sisters as well as in brothers; and I certainly believe that, if there be the handful of meal and the cruse of oil held ready -- if these sisters have the idea of the assembly, the whole thought -- every effort should be made to help them to maintain that thought, for there is a testimony in it.

W.S.S. Perhaps we have not sufficiently realised our responsibility to neighbouring meetings where conditions are very feeble.

J.T. I think that may be, for if there be in a place a handful of meal and a little oil; that is, the apprehension of Christ and the Spirit -- that is a real christian condition -- and these things are held rightly, not loosely -- the meal is in a barrel and the oil in a cruse -- well, the testimony is involved in that. I think it is a very right thing for a brother or brothers there to see to it that what is needed is supplied so that the one idea of the assembly continues.

J.I. Do you think, if there are conditions, God will send someone there as He sent Elijah to the widow?

J.T. No doubt, but, as we were saying, that is not the way the matter is put: Elijah is not sent to help her, but to be maintained. He represents the testimony, but, as there, he represents the prophetic ministry that enlarges on what is there. It is quite right that God will take care of a condition like this

and send somebody, but I think the lesson today is, not that God will do that, but that we should do it; the obligation is on us, I am not to leave to God what I should do. You do it, you give them to eat; the Lord knew what He would do, but you take the obligation.

H.V. So that she comes first in verse 15, "She, and he, and her house". 1 Kings 17:15

J.T. Yes, she is the responsible element here -- she is a sister; and her house, that is the responsible local element. But the primary thought of God in the matter is that the testimony is maintained.

-.F. Is the word of the prophet Haggai a great encouragement to us in broken days? "I am with you, saith the Lord of hosts: according to the word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, so my spirit remaineth among you: fear ye not". Haggai 2:4,5. Have you the full idea in that chapter, and it was only a short time before they began to build the house of God at Jerusalem?

J.T. That is good, and not only that but "The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former" Haggai 2:9 -- the whole idea is carried through, only it would be more glorious. The thought of the latter glory of the house is very encouraging.

In the third scripture we see how the thing culminates in the New Testament. The gospel of Matthew brings out that the Lord, in instituting His supper, says, "Take, eat; this is my body" Matthew 26:26 -- not 'This is my flesh', but "my body", maintaining in the New Testament what we have been speaking of, in a striking way. Paul takes it up in regard to our public position with one another, because the breaking of bread in 1 Corinthians alludes to the fellowship. In actually partaking of the Supper the point is not the fellowship but the order of it in the assembly, but the fellowship is the public side covering our everyday life and is brought in here so as to maintain

the whole thought, so that we do not lose it, we do not forget it, we carry it through and recognise that we are all one; we are one body in the fellowship as partaking of the Lord's supper. So I think it is good, in chapter 10, to keep this before us, and that the thoughts should not be weakened in us as to what we are locally, "We being many are one bread, and one body". And the communion of the body of Christ brings in in Matthew the whole thought, but then, our relations with one another are included; we are to hold each other in this light; everything we do publicly throughout the week has this in mind, the maintenance of the one whole thought in the locality.

FELLOWSHIP, LOCAL AND GENERAL

1 Corinthians 1:1 - 3; 2 Corinthians 1:1 - 5; Galatians 1:1 - 5; Colossians 4:16

I thought we might look at the thought of fellowship in its local and general aspect. The opening verses of these epistles, 1 and 2 Corinthians and Galatians, remind us that fellowship is not only local, that is, it is not only to be experienced and enjoyed at a particular locality, but that it is universal. The first epistle speaks of "all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours". The assembly at Corinth is addressed, but these words are added indicating the universality of the fellowship. Then there is the second letter which is more limited to a province, "the assembly of God which is in Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia", but which extends beyond the assembly addressed. Then in Galatians, "to the assemblies of Galatia", not addressing any one of them, but all of them; in the district or province the assemblies are addressed as on equal footing. Then in Colossians we see how the nearby meeting, the assembly of Laodiceans, is linked up with the assembly. The earlier verses might have been mentioned, verse 13, "For I bear him witness that he labours much for you, and them in Laodicea ... . Salute the brethren in Laodicea ... And when the letter has been read among you, cause that it be read also in the assembly of Laodiceans, and that ye also read that from Laodicea". Colossians 4:13,16. Both letters were to be read in each meeting. But the first address, 1 Corinthians, is to be considered first. What the apostle has to say to this assembly is meant for all the brethren, all the saints, so what happens among the saints is a concern to all. Then in the second letter we have something more limited, that is the area, or province. Both letters have discipline

in mind. So that matters of discipline are particularly to be before us wherever they are, especially in meetings near by; they are our affair. Then if it is a matter of doctrine, the whole province might be affected by bad doctrine; that is what occurred in Galatia. Then in regard to Colosse and Laodicea, it is more the salutations and ministry of the servant, so that the letter written to one was applicable to both meetings, showing that there was happy fellowship among them, showing too that there is increased responsibility.

J.L. You mean what happens in this place would be a concern to all the saints wherever they are?

J.T. The great general thought of the fellowship is that it includes all the saints. Then there is the idea of proximity: the nearer we are to a place the more we are responsible, for instance in this area, or any industrial area such as Lancashire, the saints are very likely to be affected similarly. So here the fishing industry brings about likeness of feelings and outlook, so that we are all the more responsible to each other to understand each other; what affects one is a common matter to all the saints in the district, but it is also a common matter to all the saints everywhere. The same thing would apply to London, the saints would understand each other in what affects them from an imperial or metropolitan outlook. The outlook and occupation that characterise the place become a means of bringing about likeness of feelings for each other.

W.F. Would Paul the apostle, and Sosthenes the brother, suggest authority? Is the idea of authority connected with fellowship, the assembly of God implying what is really of God in that city?

J.T. Quite so. "Sosthenes the brother". It was blended with brotherly feelings. Authority is not enough. Then in anything that is done we have the whole assembly to reckon with. It is a common

matter, it has to be met in a common way. We cannot say, 'It is not ours, we will keep hands off'. It is the fellowship of our Lord Jesus.

W.A.S. Does in any way the principle of the body enter into this, "If one member suffer, all the members suffer with it"? 1 Corinthians 12:26.

J.T. That is the very thought of the fellowship. All that brings out how bound up the brethren are. The nearer we are to the brethren the more we would feel every matter as our own.

A.M. Is that how Paul and Sosthenes come in together? There was lack of power and lack of brotherly spirit at Corinth.

J.T. Paul brings in Timothy in the second epistle. What a brother he was! Paul speaks of him to them with great affection throughout the epistle.

A.M. So that it would weigh equally on both sides. So that when fresh ministry comes out let us have it; when fresh help comes in in difficulties, let us have the brotherly spirit to receive it!

J.T. The assembly is endowed with governments and helps.

G.M. Is there any special significance in the fact that Sosthenes means vigorous? Would that be the mark of a true brother? I noticed in your prayer you referred to being marked by energy.

J.T. If this is his name he ought to be vigorous. Energy under those circumstances is to be desired. The gospel of Mark would help us as to this: things are done at once. At the end of Mark we find the young man in white robes at the sepulchre; he represents youthful energy for the service of God.

C.M. Would this widening out in the second verse of chapter 1 keep us from being circumscribed?

J.T. What you remark is good. It is a widening out: "to the assembly of God which is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints". They are 'called', that is, God has made a selection

of them, "with all that in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ", meaning that we are addressed as those who depend on the Lord and on His name. "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered". Romans 10:13. There is power on our behalf.

G.M. So that when difficulties arise that cannot be dealt with, "They beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them", Luke 5:7.

J.T. That is good.

G.M. We do not very readily do that in this district.

J.T. That may be a weakness. "They beckoned to their partners". Luke 5:7. The word 'partner' in verse 7 is a different word from the word 'partner' in verse 10, which means 'those who share alike'. We all gain if help comes in. The whole assembly gains. These verses are quite applicable to what we are saying now. In Luke 5:6 it says, "their net brake" -- a local calamity -- but they knew what to do: "They beckoned unto their partners ... that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink". Luke 5:7. In verse 10 where it says, "James, and John ... were partners with Simon", Luke 5:10 that word 'partner' alludes to mutual sharing; the other word is more distant: persons near by, ready to help. It is very significant that these difficulties brought about Peter's confession. It is often the case. The real difficulty lies in some sin not confessed. So here they beckoned to their partners -- it is good to call on our partners -- and this partner service is rendered. It will be observed that the Lord Himself did not help them to save the fish, that is, He would have them do it. The fish were caught under His direction, but then the Lord does not give any directions as to the ship, as if sometimes the Lord would say, 'Ye should know what to do

yourselves'. They knew: "They beckoned to their partners". Luke 5:7.

A.M. Sometimes in a difficulty when we see the way out, we go on praying about it, and we do not do the thing.

J.T. We ought to know what to do. If we do not know, the Lord will indicate it. These fishermen did know. If a matter happens in C. and you do not know what to do, and there is a brother at P. who does know, why do you not seek him?

G.M. So that we are adjusted in relation to that matter, and grace and peace follow.

J.T. In the doing of it God acts for us.

J.L. What is implied in Peter's confession?

J.T. The sense of his sinfulness and the Lord's holiness. It was he who said to the Lord Jesus, "To whom shall we go?". John 6:68. He said that, and we see it here, the Lord's holiness and his own unfitness. So that holiness becomes God's house for ever.

C.M. In Acts 27 when they were afraid of going to lose the ship Paul says, "Ye should have hearkened unto me". Acts 27:21. There was a man of God, if only they had listened to him.

J.T. Very good. Very often we refuse counsel. The Lord Himself is offering to give counsel, He says to Laodicea, "I counsel thee". Revelation 3:18. In Psalm 16 Jehovah gave Him counsel: "I will bless the Lord, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons". Psalm 16:7. Of Nehemiah it says in a great difficulty: "I consulted with myself", Nehemiah 5:7. That means he was not a party man; he was a wise man; he took counsel with himself. He had an influence with the brethren and the difficulty was mightily solved. In Proverbs 11:14 we are told, "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety". Proverbs 11:14. So it is well to get the brethren together. The Lord may give a word of wisdom.

Ques. Are these conditions seen in Acts 18 first with Paul, and then with Aquila and Priscilla, they were able to help Apollos?

J.T. They were able to do it, a man and his wife able to help a brother. As regards Paul in the ship it says, "Ye should have hearkened unto me". Acts 27:21. How often we refuse counsel! We should weigh over every counsel.

R.S. You mean things should not lie dormant?

J.T. Well, they would fester. Isaiah said about a boil, Put a cake of figs on it. "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death". James 5:20. If a brother can do that, he does an exploit. James gives us examples of individual exploits. Elias did a similar service, he prayed earnestly that it might not rain. That is an exploit in prayer. So that we are to look about and see what is available in the meetings.

T.M. So you would not exclude a visiting brother from the care meeting?

J.T. No, you may be excluding a word for the moment. The visiting brother ought to be judicious.

R.S. The local brethren would know the case better.

J.T. Quite so. The Lord would not pass them by either. Well, that is the general thought here in the first epistle. In the second letter the area is reduced to the province of Achaia. This time it is the brother Timothy that is linked up with the apostle in writing, a man known to the Corinthians as having been sent to them.

F.I. Could what has been said as to the individual exploit apply in this way: some brother in one meeting goes to a brother in another meeting, he can do that without interfering in the local meeting?

J.T. Quite so.

C.M. What is conveyed in the expression "in the whole of Achaia"? Is that the place that Paul had in view where the recovery took place?

J.T. Paul had in mind the whole of the province. He had recovery in mind. Recovery is more difficult than penalty. It would seem that the neighbouring gatherings should be present in this matter: a man who was a terrible sinner was to break bread again, so that the distant meetings were to be one with this.

C.M. I was wondering if the whole district had been affected by the judgment of the assembly at Corinth.

J.T. That is a good remark. The district is sure to be affected. The brethren in the district ought to be with that judgment, if it is for right or wrong. So the apostle here is rightly approaching the whole district.

J.L. Is there anything in the fact that he is writing a letter to them rather than going personally?

J.T. Well, he wrote because he does not want to be too severe. The letter is to prepare the way for his coming.

J.L. So it is all the more important that in each letter he is linking a brother with him.

J.T. It is important. Grace marked the apostle.

Ques. Is he on the outlook for comfort and encouragement here?

J.T. That is what is in view in the second letter. So there is the selection of Timothy instead of Sosthenes.

J.L. Timothy would have genuine feelings for them.

J.T. These are the men that we should look for.

G.M. Is there a possibility of brethren not coming into line with the care meeting and matters being discussed outside of the care meeting?

J.T. The care meeting is never final, nor should it ever reach a decision. Major matters should always

be regarded at the care meeting as proposals, never final. If there are any brethren discussing about them afterwards there is no principle involved; advice in the interval may be of use. What I think is most destructive is the lack of loyalty. A brother says, 'I go with that', and when the care meeting is over he again expresses his doubts. That is what is destructive! We ought to be men. "Quit yourselves like men", 1 Corinthians 16:13. Do not be different outside of the meeting from what you are inside! We ought not to be vacillating. We were speaking of Jonathan in one of the meetings, how manly he was; when David was in danger he went straight to his father and told him that David was not worthy of death. He jeopardised himself. He faced his father as a man. To say what we think is one thing, but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety. Another brother might have different information.

G.A. Would you say the care meeting is the proper place to express any information that we may have? There is a danger of a party spirit otherwise.

J.T. Quite so. We ought to be men; we ought to mean what we say.

Ques. Does not Rehoboam show us the danger of divided counsel? He first took counsel with the old men, and then with the young men and finally he lost the people.

J.T. I am glad you brought that in. I have often thought about Rehoboam. He first consulted with the old brothers, and then he took counsel with the young brothers, those who were brought up with him; they gave him different counsel, counsel that was disastrous. If Rehoboam wanted counsel he should have had the young and the old together. The old brothers might have convinced the young men that their counsel was not right. So at the care meeting it should be the old and the young taking counsel together.

Ques. Would it not be right to use pressure in the care meeting?

J.T. What do you mean by using pressure? One might persuade a brother as to right or wrong. Counsellors are counsellors; they take counsel with others: "In the multitude of counsellors there is safety". Proverbs 11:14.

C.M. Would you say the great danger is in listening to two different kinds of counsel as Rehoboam did? The danger is the clique business.

J.T. Rehoboam should have had the old and the young brothers together. The young brothers by themselves gave disastrous counsel. There was pride there.

C.M. So with Paul in the ship; the owner's counsel was selfish counsel.

J.T. The owner had a different outlook. "Ye should have hearkened unto me". Acts 27:21 If the assembly refuses to listen to Paul it is shipwreck. His are the last words as, to assembly discipline.

A.M. What about the legal teaching in Galatia?

J.T. The legal teaching enters into this. The knowledge of God would deliver us from legality. The whole province had been affected by the leaven of legality. So the apostle addresses all the saints in the assemblies in it. It is to indicate that a certain locality may be affected by a certain evil. If we see the thing arise we must set our faces against it at once.

Then the Colossian matter is rather happy. It is a question of interchange of the happiest kind. They seem to be in very happy relations with the other meetings. The apostle speaks of Epaphras, of whom he says, "He labours much for you, and them in Laodicea, and them in Hierapolis". Colossians 4:13. Those were the adjacent meetings. This brings out that the brother who resides in the locality is concerned especially about the brethren in the neighbouring meetings; so

the brethren on the coast here have a special concern for one another. Then he says, "Salute the brethren in Laodicea" Colossians 4:15 -- Paul, the great servant who loved them all, asks the brethren in Colosse to salute the brethren in Laodicea -- "and when the letter has been read among you" -- it is read to all, possibly at the end of a prayer meeting -- "cause that it be read also in the assembly of Laodiceans, and that ye also read that from Laodicea". This speaks of the happy state that exists between nearby meetings.

T.M. Could you please tell us the procedure of an assembly meeting? Do we wait on the Lord for a decision?

J.T. The decision is in the assembly: "Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven", Matthew 18:18. The assembly does it, and heaven recognises that. The facts are presented as briefly as possible, and the judgment which scripture would require is stated. That is final; heaven recognises that.

T.M. It would be a solemn thing to go against that.

J.T. It would indeed.

R.S. So in the care meeting we would have a thing properly understood before it comes to the assembly.

J.T. Yes. As was said, "In the multitude of counsellors there is safety". Proverbs 11:14 It is not decided, it is only proposed.

A.M. So it would be the facts that the assembly is to go by.

J.T. Every word would be established.

Rem. So I could not say at a care meeting that I would not break bread with a brother.

J.T. If you do that you put yourself out of fellowship.

T.M. Would you ask the one who might come under discipline to be present at the assembly meeting?

J.T. He should be there. "Those that sin convict before all", 1 Timothy 5:20. If he is not there he exposes himself; he ought to be there.

Rem. When a legal matter came up in Acts 15 the elders inquired into it first, and then it came to the assembly.

J.T. Very good, they inquired into it first. But Paul tells them everything that was very happy; he would have no natural feelings to hold and upset the brethren.

THE HOUSE OF GOD MARKED BY THE DISCIPLINE OF GOD

Genesis 32:22 - 32; 1 Chronicles 21:26,27; 1 Peter 4:17

What is in mind is to show that the house of God is marked by the discipline of God. I have selected these scriptures to show this, Jacob and David and Peter being three servants peculiarly linked with the house of God who came peculiarly under the discipline of God. We may gather therefore as in the house but we must come under discipline in order to continue according to God. There are three kinds of discipline and it is well to mention them: the discipline of the Father according to Hebrews 12, the discipline of the Lord according to 1 Corinthians 11 and other scriptures, and the discipline of the assembly according to Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5 and other scriptures. I mention these three kinds of discipline, for I believe it will help us to bear in mind that they exist. They have to be regarded separately and they stand in separate settings, but all make for suitable conditions in the house of God. The enemy's aim is to spoil the conditions inaugurated at Pentecost in the house of God, to spoil the general conditions of the assembly, not only in its general setting, but also in local conditions. These attacks of the enemy have been especially seen in recent years in local eruptions, some of which have to be classified as ordered of God. Indeed it is said, "There must be also heresies" (or 'sects') "among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you". 1 Corinthians 11:19. This is in keeping with what is said in Leviticus, "I put a leprous plague in a house", Leviticus 14:34. The principle to see is that God has allowed it, indeed we might more correctly

say, God has ordered it. Take David's great sin in numbering the people; in one place it says, "Satan ... moved David to number Israel". 1 Chronicles 21:1. And in another place it says, "Jehovah ... moved David ... . Go, number Israel and Judah". 2 Samuel 24:1. So in relation to Job's discipline, it was directly ordered of God. Satan suggested it, but God ordered it. It is a solemn fact to come under the government of God. God might order Satan to attack any one of us. At least these scriptures would challenge all our hearts as to conduct and ways, lest one day the government of God be against us, but really for us -- a solemn thing that Satan should be let loose and allowed to attack us. We may well think of the value of the prayer the Lord taught the disciples: "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil". Matthew 6:13. It was a solemn thing to be led into temptation, but it was to bring out what was there. The Lord Himself was led into temptation. The Lord came out triumphantly; Peter did not. "Satan hath desired to have you" Luke 22:31 -- that is all of you. Peter did not come out gloriously, he failed before the onslaught. It is a solemn thing that we are allowed to give way. But God says, 'I ordered it, there is something to bring out': really, as it should read of the man at Corinth, "To deliver him, I say, being such, to Satan for destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". 1 Corinthians 5:5. Thank God, it was saved before that. It was very encouraging indeed; he was saved very quickly; the apostle had to urge the brethren to restore him. Such was the effect of the discipline. What an instrument it is in the ordering of God. These are extreme cases I am speaking of now. In fact discipline goes on all the time, but these are extreme cases to show how God orders it expressly to bring out what we are. God says, 'I just order a proceeding against you'; it is really for us, but it is against us at the time.

Now I want to take up Jacob as the first illustration, he is outstanding. It is remarkable how definitions that have a place in the divine vocabulary come out, and how different ones name them. The house of God comes under that setting. Jacob says, "This is none other but the house of God". Genesis 28:17. David says, "This is the house of the Lord God". 1 Chronicles 22:1. There was no question about it, showing what a spiritual man he was. It says, "David; who found favour before God, and asked to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob ... But the Most High dwells not in places made with hands". Acts 7:46 - 48. David says, "This is the house of the Lord God". 1 Chronicles 22:1. Jacob says, "This is none other", Genesis 28:17 that is to say, there was a conclusion arrived at. Jacob typically says, 'This is nothing else than that', and it is the first mention of it, and it comes right down to us. He named the house of God. My point is to show that he came under discipline, and discipline stamped him; he was under reproach in that way all his life. He needed that. If we name things, and name them sincerely, and appreciate them, we must come under discipline in relation to them. God says He will bring us into the reality of that thing. Let us not shrink, for God has taken us in hand; we are to dwell in the house of God. Jacob does not see that. "That I may dwell in the house of Jehovah all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of Jehovah, and to inquire of him in his temple", Psalm 27:4. What beautiful language the Spirit of God would put not only into our mouth, but into our heart. So discipline must proceed. All these things cannot be taken up in fleshly energy. We do not all get converted like Paul; we do not all get such a conversion as that, but all that is implied in that conversion must come to us sooner or later. So we may as well take on the obligation as we are here in the school of God. We must go to school. God has provided a school. It is imperative

to go to school. Luke in Acts 19 alludes to the school of Tyrannus. This is not put there without having a meaning, it is stated there for a purpose, that is to say, the flesh will not be tolerated. That is a notice at the very outset, we may say, nor can we bring our distinction into it.

Well, Jacob returns from Padan, and he has got to meet the offended brother. It is no light matter to meet an offended brother, but the Lord gives instruction in Matthew 5, "Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; leave there thy gift before the altar". Matthew 5:23,24. Esau had something against Jacob. One day earlier he had decided that he would murder his brother, a terrible thought to have, but Esau had it. Now Jacob is coming back, and he is not sure if Esau has changed his mind, nor can he be sure. So he sends messengers to him. To our encouragement, two camps of angels had already met Jacob -- God's mighty angels, one of whom could slay one hundred and eighty five thousand at a stroke -- so we need not be afraid of meeting the offended brother; he cannot overcome us if we are with God. But Jacob did not take that in, nor did he rely upon it. Mahanaim means that. But Jacob did not send messengers to Esau saying, 'My dear brother Esau, God has just met me'. Instead of that he sent a message to tell Esau how well off he was, as much as to say, 'Esau, you have got somebody to reckon with'. But the point is he had God to reckon with. The Psalms are full of that; they never fall back on cattle and houses and money. The book of Psalms is intended to strengthen our hearts in dealing with our brethren. So there are two camps of angels on behalf of Jacob. Were Jacob to have taken this on, what would he do? He would have overcome evil by good. But Jacob was still relying on his own greatness. How ready we are to bring out in our

conversation with the brethren what we are, what our position is, what our education is. How prone we are to do it, so that the listener might be impressed that we are somebody, indeed, we intend it that he should be impressed. So the messengers came back and told Jacob that Esau is coming to meet him with four hundred men. Now that is something for Jacob to reckon with. But he was a true believer; immediately he turns to God. His prayer is given in this chapter, and when we come to the verses which we have read, he is left alone with God. Instead of Esau wrestling with him God does it. And Jacob says afterwards, "I have seen God face to face, and my life has been preserved". There you see the result of the discipline, dear brethren; he comes out with an increased knowledge of God, and with an increased sense of the weakness that is in himself. That is what he has learnt in God's school. So one could say, "For when I am weak, then am I strong". 2 Corinthians 12:10. The great learner, the most educated christian, was Paul. The Corinthians chided him, but he says, "I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified", 1 Corinthians 2:2 which meant that he accepted in his own body and demeanour that he was crucified with Christ. "I am crucified with Christ, and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me; but in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me", Galatians 2:20. He is a full graduate of the school of God, not that discipline ever ceases; it goes on as long as we are in these bodies. "That the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us", 2 Corinthians 4:7. So Jacob limped over the brook; he was under reproach in men's eye, being crippled, but he was beautiful to God's eye. He is an outstanding example of education through discipline in relation to the house of God. What follows is a beautiful touch:

when Joseph and Rachel finally came before Esau, Joseph comes before Rachel. It reads, "And the maidservants drew near, they and their children ... And Leah also, with her children, drew near ... And lastly Joseph drew near, and Rachel". Genesis 33:6,7. Joseph and Rachel: Christ first. That is another beautiful touch in the house of God. Make it a point of habit, make it a point of rule, dear brethren, Christ first! and more than that, Christ all, everything and in all! That is all I had to say about Jacob.

You know David takes up Jacob when he thought of building the house: "I will not give sleep to mine eyes, slumber to mine eyelids, until I find out a place for Jehovah, habitations for the Mighty One of Jacob", Psalm 132:4 - 5. God said virtually, If that is to be true there must be excessive discipline. As the Lord said of Paul, "I will show to him how much he must suffer". Acts 9:16. So David has to go through the school. This event in 1 Chronicles 21 is late in his life; he is a highly disciplined man already. It is a warning to us; we may have been going on for forty years, and yet we may be exposed to the devil. Let none of us think we are beyond discipline; our very thoughts expose us to the devil -- a little bit of pride, maybe, spiritual pride. David was an old brother. Old brothers are apt to think of the numbers in the meeting; they have had to do with this one's and with that one's conversions. We have been flattering ourselves that we have had to do with that. Do not let us be mistaken: Satan is in that. 'Go, number the people!' God said to the devil, 'Go and make David number the people'. You may be sure David had often thought of it. At that time Israel was a very powerful nation numerically. You know how modern rulers are counting their people. It is natural to men to do that. So God said to Satan, 'I allow him to number the people'. I do not know of anything more solemn: David the beloved

king, the great prophet, the sweet psalmist of Israel being allowed to give way to this temptation. How solemn that is. What a warning for us, dear brethren, that we should not be priding ourselves in our achievements. After all we are unprofitable servants. The Lord would put us in our places. Paul says, "That I might not be exalted ... there was given to me a thorn for the flesh, a messenger of Satan". 2 Corinthians 12:7. Who sent him? God. "That he might buffet me, that I might not be exalted". He asked the Lord thrice that it might depart from him, but the Lord said, 'No, My grace suffices thee'. Jacob's limp stayed; Paul's thorn stayed, and he is contented; his power increases as he is subject to the Lord in this matter.

Well, God is displeased at the numbering of the people, so that David is now in the position of discipline. The whole nation has been disciplined. The angel of God was standing over Jerusalem to destroy it. What a terrible sight that was -- the holy city about to be destroyed. Then you get that beautiful word, "The Lord beheld, and he repented". 1 Chronicles 21:15. He thought of Jerusalem, the city He had chosen. How touching that is. Then think of many of us, of any of us whom He has selected according to divine counsel. He sees us, He thinks of us when we are under discipline, and He repents. And when He repents He will leave a better christian, a better stone in the building. God sent the angel to Jerusalem to destroy it, and yet there is this beautiful touch, "He repented".. He sits as the refiner; He watches and watches, and relinquishes, and the fire ceases; He calms it down. "All things work together for good ... to those who are called according to purpose". Romans 8:28. He had selected Jerusalem, and it repented God, and He said to the angel, 'Put that sword into its sheath', but not until David had brought the sacrifice (verse 27). There must be sacrifice; all His dealings

with us are in relation to the death of Christ. So David goes up and buys the place. He would not take anything for nothing to offer to God, he paid the full price, nor should we be behind that in principle. Whatever it costs let us not fail to meet God. David paid the full price. Then he built an altar. He judges himself. Let us judge ourselves unsparingly, there is to be no reservation in that matter. Heaven comes in and acknowledges David's offering. And we are told in the first verse of the next chapter, "And David said, This is the house of Jehovah Elohim, and this is the altar of burnt-offering for Israel". 1 Chronicles 22:1. This is a new order. The tabernacle was at Gibeon, but David would not go there. We must be careful and let God provide, but on the line of sovereign selection. David was accepted on that line. Let us be like him and pay the full price. I mean to say, let everything go that you may get the treasure, like the Lord Jesus, He restored that which He took not away. See how pleased God was with David here! Can we miss heaven's acknowledgment of this? Now we are ready for the house. David says, This is the house of God. He goes the whole way, he pays the full price: six hundred shekels of gold. That alludes to the great spiritual contribution David made. Heaven owns it.

Now just a word on our passage in Peter. Peter says, "The time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God". The house is not formed of merely professing christians, it is formed of real christians. The time is come that judgment must begin there. This includes much of what I have said already, but I only wanted to say about Peter how qualified he was to speak about the house; he says here, "The time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God". Obviously the meaning of this is that God is no respecter of persons: "If it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel?".

God is saying that there is no more licence for sin in a christian than in an ungodly person. Sin is sin before God -- as in the case of David, so in our case. If a christian's conduct discredits God, God will deal with him. There will come a terrible day, a solemn day: "For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness". 2 Thessalonians 2:11,12. But judgment must begin at us. God is showing that He is no respecter of persons, He deals with sin as sin. The Corinthians were told, "On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, so were we not judged". 1 Corinthians 11:30,31. Then the apostle adds, "But being judged, we are disciplined of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world". 1 Corinthians 11:32. Why did the Corinthians not deal with these things, but let them continue in the meeting as we see in chapter 11? It is inside, where our wills are often at work; it may be at the care meeting where we want a little bit of our own way. "On this account many among you are weak". 1 Corinthians 11:30. If we would judge ourselves we would not be condemned with the world. So you see at Corinth discipline is going on all the time. So with us it is going on continually. So that we are warned how to behave ourselves lest we should be condemned with the world.

THE SON IN AUTHORITY, LIBERTY AND PRIESTHOOD

Colossians 1:12,13; John 8:34 - 36; Hebrews 7:28

J.T. What is in mind is to show how the Son of God is in His kingdom, then in the house, and then as priest particularly. We have a peculiar feature of the kingdom alluded to in Colossians, the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love. What is in mind is that we may see the peculiar influence of Christ in the kingdom as seen in this passage. There is authority in it, but qualified by the relation in which the One is who exercises the authority. The kingdom of God is presented under many designations; this is peculiarly attractive and the intent is that we might see, as coming under the rule of Christ as the Son, how we are secured in affections. The subjection is not arbitrary, but, as coming through such a relationship, it is intended to affect us, bearing on the spirit of sonship. So that we may consider the kingdom first, and then the house, and finally the priesthood; in all these positions and functions the Lord influences us, not in the way of subjugation, but in the promotion of affection, so that the word is, "Giving thanks to the Father, who has made us fit for sharing the portion of the saints in light, who has delivered us from the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love". It is the action of the Father, but the rule is in the hands of the Son of His love.

A.E.L. Does that correspond with John 3:35 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand"?

J.T. I think it does -- "all things" would include the kingdom. The administration of the kingdom is perhaps as important as any of the features of Christ's administration.

Ques. Is it in keeping with David, who bowed the hearts of the men of Judah as one man?

J.T. You mean that David, in his communications to the men of Judah, appealed to their affections.

Ques. I thought it was that kind of authority -- is that so?

J.T. Quite so, and it was intended to be foreshadowed in Solomon more particularly, who was the son of his father's love; his word in the book of Proverbs to us is usually on the line of affection. Arbitrary means or measures have to be taken, of course: David represents that side more, for his ministry was subjugation, not extirpation but subjugation. Joshua's ministry was rather to extirpate the inhabitants of the land, denoting evil principles or evil spirits; nothing but the most arbitrary measures would meet that part of the service.

W.C. Would you say why fitness for the inheritance precedes the reference to the kingdom of the Son of His love?

J.T. As if the Father's work is needed to make us amenable to the beautiful administration of authority in the Son. Initially we need perhaps what is more arbitrary, so we have the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God, but for the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love to be effective certain preparatory operations from the Father seem to be required.

M.T. Is the thing seen in pattern on the mount of transfiguration: the Father's voice, "This is my beloved Son: hear him", Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35 and Moses and Elias being there in every sense equal to it, but the disciples perhaps having something else to learn?

J.T. I think that is good. The three disciples were taken up to see the Son of man coming in His kingdom, as it is in Matthew, or the kingdom of God come in power, as in Mark, or the kingdom of God

simply, as in Luke -- but what they saw and heard implied the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love.

Ques. Would the kingdom spoken of here bring us into the gain of the assembly, the way in which He is known in the assembly?

J.T. Well, the bearing of it is formation in us accompanying authority, affection allied with authority; the affections of the Son and all that enters into the relation of the Son, particularly the form of expression here -- the Son of the Father's love. The Son of the Father's love would mean the Son as apprehended in the different expressions of fatherly affection towards Him, which we have suggested at the banks of the Jordan and in such statements as the one which has just been referred to, "The Father loveth the Son". John 3:35

M.P. What does "Has made us fit" involve? Is it a question of what is effected in the work of Christ, or of the Father's operations towards us in grace?

J.T. "Giving thanks to the Father, who has made us fit for sharing the portion of the saints in light". It is the Father's operations evidently, He has the Son in His mind. David, I think, helps; indeed, coming down and beginning with Abraham, we have indicated in type how the Father had the Son in mind. The journey to the land of Moriah on the part of Abraham and Isaac brings out the beautiful relations between the father and the son; the inter-change of thought between them brings out the relations and mutual affections that were there. Redemption in type accomplished as in Genesis 22, then we have Abraham's exercise as to Isaac and the wife. Then we have between Jacob and Joseph also the relations and affections between the father and the son. And then in David, as I was remarking, what thoughtfulness there was on his part as the father so that Solomon's regime should be in

every way glorious, that the conditions should reflect all this ministry, the ministry of David; and I think here we see the culmination of it. John 5 shows that the Son could do nothing except what He saw the Father doing -- remarkable statement! -- and the Father shows Him all things that He does. "The Father loves the Son", John 3:35 so that it seems as if what is called attention to is the Father's thoughtfulness and provision for the Son in this rule, the kingdom of the Son of His love, to make it what it should be. And it is not always arbitrary assertion of authority, but the benign and ever-permeating influence of Christ amongst the people of God seen thus, and the Father's pleasure in all that.

Ques. Is the position seen in David's bringing Solomon forward in 1 Chronicles 29, where he says, "Solomon my son ... is young and tender", 1 Chronicles 29:1 he brings the people under that kind of influence? Is that what you had in mind?

J.T. Yes, his thought is Solomon. Of course, when Solomon is on the throne, he speaks of the people, how great they are, and he is there to serve them, but David is thinking about Solomon in view of the divine mind as to him. As he was born it was said that Jehovah loved him, and his kingdom must be all it should be. I think that is the relation of the Father here: He has, as it says, "made us fit for sharing the portion of the saints in light, who has delivered us from the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love". I think you see how the Father has the Son in mind in this and how interested He is in the rule of the Son; He loves the Son and has given all things into His hand; but here it is the Son of His love, not simply that He loves Him, and we are translated into it as made fit for sharing the portion of the saints in light.

R.L. Snr. Would you say, with regard to this fitness, when it takes place as to us?

J.T. Well, it fits in with Colossians, which epistle contemplates a certain work in the people of God -- the Father's part in it. Romans teaches that Christ is raised from the dead by the glory of the Father -- a remarkable statement! -- and that the saints are in mind; they are the extension of that, as I understand, the Father operating so that all in the kingdom should be in keeping; the glory of such a kingdom should shine, the Father having His part in it.

R.W. Would it be helpful to notice that this epistle is addressed to "the holy and faithful brethren in Christ"? Colossians 1:1.

J.T. Yes, they are viewed as the subjects of the work of God and that statement shows it, and then that they had love for all the saints: verse 3 says, "We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ continually when praying for you, having heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and the love which ye have towards all the saints". Colossians 1:3,4. And moreover it says, "On account of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens; of which ye heard before in the word of the truth of the glad tidings, which are come to you, as they are in all the world, and are bearing fruit and growing, even as also among you, from the day ye heard them and knew indeed the grace of God, in truth". Colossians 1:5,6. So that we have clear evidence that the work of God had been effective in these christians, and it is included in the statement we have read that the Father "has made us fit for sharing the portion of the saints in light". Such saints are equal to that, sharing the portion of the saints in light and delivered from the authority of darkness, which alludes evidently to Satan's peculiar workings, the workings of man's mind in the way of doctrines and principles that carry authority with them. It is a terrible thought

that people are restful in such darkness, because they think the things they hold are right and authoritative as coming from certain sources. The Father has operated to take us out of all that and translate us into the kingdom of the Son of His love.

R.L. Snr. Is the thought of 'Father' closely connected with the work of God in us?

J.T. Well, it is; here it is evidently in view of the Son. The Father works in us on His own account and on our account too, but He works in us in relation to the Son, as we saw in Abraham and David, the Son of His love; we are translated into His kingdom.

R.E. Would what the Lord says, "Thine they were, and thou gavest them me" John 17:6 connect with it?

J.T. It would; it is perhaps a little further than this, but it is the same thought. You quote from John 17; in chapter 6 of that gospel the Lord says, "No one can come to me except the Father who has sent me draw him" John 6:44 and "Him that comes to me I will not at all cast out"; John 6:37 it brings out the great matter of the Father and the Son operating, the Father operating in view of the Son, and, on the other hand, the Son operating in view of the Father. They operate in us too in view of ourselves, but They operate in us in relation to One another, and this thought of the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love is a most attractive one, for it is a question of Themselves and how we are affected by the Father in view of this peculiar feature of the kingdom..

A.A. That makes clear what was asked just now in regard to Christ's death and the sovereign operations of the Father. Will not the Lord Jesus take account of every one moving towards Him as being the subject of the Father's work and value him accordingly?

J.T. I think we ought to see that the Father and Son operate in view of Themselves and the Spirit operates in the same sense, the Spirit viewed as the Spirit of adoption which we have received; but that Spirit cries "Abba, Father", as much as to say, you are in relation to the Father. That sets me up in a system of affection.

W.G. Would this thought of the kingdom be provisional or would it carry our thoughts on to what is abiding connected with Christ as Head in the Colossian setting?

J.T. I think it runs on into eternity. 1 Corinthians 15 teaches us that the Lord Jesus subdues all and then becomes subject Himself; the principle of rule runs through particularly as seen in this setting of the kingdom, love. We read in 2 Peter, "So an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ". 2 Peter 1:11.

A.W. God has such a people for His pleasure.

J.T. Well, He has, and in this particular relation. I think if we follow the thought of the father and the son in the types we shall get help as to how they move in relation to one another, even as regards the kingdom and how David had Solomon in mind: at his birth it is said Jehovah loved him and he is called Jedidiah prophetically. Well, David would never lose sight of that; earlier he had been told by Jehovah that there would be a son and that He would take him on as His son, and as soon as he is born Jehovah indicates that He loves him, and he is the object in all that follows. It is not simply that Israel is to have a wonderful ruler, but Solomon is to be glorified; typically the Father and the Son are to have delight, they are to have pleasure, in this state of things.

A.M.P. Were you thinking the book of Proverbs opens that up?

J.T. I think it does, I think it is peculiarly intended for young christians, to get their souls bathed in the affections that flow out from the Son of the Father's love. It is peculiarly a setting of love, an order of things marked by love, and yet there is authority in it.

A.M.P. David had said "my son" of Solomon, and then Solomon carries on the thought and says, "My son, give me thine heart". Proverbs 23:26.

J.T. It is very striking the frequency of those terms in the book of Proverbs, even from the king's mother in the last chapter: he was tender and beloved in the sight of his mother; while Colossians contemplates the Father operating in relation to the Son with regard to us, the state of the saints warranting and affording opportunity for this. As we progress in the knowledge of God, we see that, though we are in mind in the operations, it is really a matter between divine Persons; the whole matter is between divine Persons.

Ques. Would not that bring out the thought we have before us in connection with being translated into the kingdom of the Son of His love, and be a wholly spiritual thought?

J.T. It is a spiritual thought: the Father has done it. What a remarkable thing it is that the Father has done it with each of us; and then in John 8 the Lord in dealing with some of the Jews who believed on Him brings in this thought, "If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free" John 8:36 because He abides in the house. It is still a matter between the Father and the Son; the Son abides in the house. You may say, 'It is His own right'. It is, but then it is the Father's matter, it is the Father's thought that He is to be there, and if He sets us free, we are indeed free. Now it is not simply authority in the kingdom but in the house, and what service the Son

renders to us so that we should enjoy the real freedom!

C.S. Would it fit in with 1 Chronicles 22"David also commanded all the princes of Israel to help Solomon his son, saying, Is not the Lord your God with you? and hath he not given you rest on every side? for he hath given the inhabitants of the land into mine hand; and the land is subdued before the Lord, and before his people. Now set your heart and your soul to seek the Lord your God; arise therefore, and build ye the sanctuary of the Lord God"? 1 Chronicles 22:17 - 19. David is thinking of Solomon there.

J.T. Yes, he is thinking of Solomon all through those chapters; hence we find the people making Solomon king the second time (1 Chronicles 29:22), they had come to like him. The father's operations are to that end; they made him king the second time, meaning they were satisfied with his rule.

N.K.M. It speaks of him there as "Solomon the son of David". 1 Chronicles 29:22.

J.T. David was, of course, predominant, and he operated to make Solomon what he should be, and now the people like him. They would not have any other; they made him king a second time. David had made him king but the people are making him king too.

N.K.M. In regard to the inheritance, why does it say "the Father ... has made us fit for sharing the portion of the saints in light"? What is the force of those words, "in light"?

J.T. I think it would be peculiarly Colossian. They were in danger of philosophy, which would be darkness, but up to the present day Greek philosophy is regarded as light even by nominal christians, and ceremonialism too is regarded as light, and devoted people are going on with those two things and regarding them as light, whereas they are darkness; these things are darkening.

R.W. Would it be helpful to notice that in the gospel of Mark, the Father says, "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"? Mark 1:11. You have been speaking of the kingdom of the Son of His love, and He seems to be addressed in a personal way in Mark's gospel.

J.T. Quite so. Those around Him are addressed elsewhere, "This is my beloved Son", but here He is addressed Himself. One might say, Why should it be addressed to Jesus? He knew what He was. But there it is; the Father loves the Son, and He loves to tell Him so -- "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". Well now, the Father hands over all these people to Christ; He has taken us from under the authority of darkness and has handed us over to Him, and the Lord Himself says of us, "The men whom thou gavest me", John 17:6 so that it is the Father and the Son we see in all this.

Now in John 8 the Jews said to the Lord, "We are Abraham's seed, and have never been under bondage to anyone; how sayest thou, Ye shall become free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Every one that practises sin is the bondman of sin. Now the bondman abides not in the house for ever; the son abides for ever. If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free". The Son abides in the house for ever; the house is God's house. Any son's place is in his father's house, and the Lord takes that place here. He is there for ever so He sets us really free.

A.A. On the side of our apprehension of this, I would like to ask if what you quoted in John 8 is subsequent to what we have in Colossians? In Colossians, our entering into and enjoying that means this, the giving of thanks to the Father; is the Son's setting us free, and our acceptance of it subsequent to that, in the house?

J.T. Well, the order is the kingdom and then the house, the Son in both cases; the one makes for the other. The truth is mentioned before, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free", John 8:32 that is how we come into deliverance. Before we come to persons the truth becomes operative, but it leads to the house where it is a question of persons, and particularly the Son, the Son abiding there for ever, bringing out the character or nature of the relation of sonship.

Ques. Do you regard the expression, "the son abides for ever", as characteristic and therefore applicable to the saints as in the house?

J.T. I think so. It really means, in the working out of it, that we are made sons; that is Galatian truth, but the Son does it.

Ques. Does the same truth come out in Hebrews 3 where Christ is contrasted with Moses who is said to be faithful in all his house as a servant; Christ is Son over God's house, and then the saints are said to be the house, "Whose house are we"? Hebrews 3:6.

J.T. That is right, only there it is the Son over it: Moses is a servant in the house, Christ is Son over it. The point is He abides in it, a permanent thing, and really we are brought into this liberty by the Spirit of adoption.

W.C. Is the contrast between Isaac and Ishmael?

J.T. Quite so. Ishmael did not abide in the house; although he was Abraham's son, he was not a son characteristically.

W.C. Is the bondman here the product of a legal system, and, on the other hand, the free woman a question of coming under Christ as the Son?

J.T. Quite so, we see His readiness to use any opportunity to deliver souls. Even if it is a question of a man under the power of sin, the thing is the Son abides in the house, and He can deliver him from that.

M.P. Mephibosheth was given a place as one of the king's sons.

J.T. That is a very good illustration of what we have said; it is like the spirit of adoption.

A.W. What have you in mind in reference to the expression, "Ye shall be free indeed"?

J.T. Well, it is real freedom -- permanent freedom. The abiding in the house for ever is the thought, there is no possibility of ever being cast out. Ishmael had no status at all, his position was precarious, and, as he shows his hostility to the son, to Isaac, he is cast out. It is the position of the Jew really in the chapter; they have shown hostility to the Son and He abides in the house for ever, and they are cast out.

A.W. Would you say it brings out the line of sonship you referred to just now?

J.T. The Son setting us free involves His making us sons, having the Spirit of adoption, otherwise we would not be there for ever. It is to bring out the economy in which we are seen here in the house; we have already spoken of the kingdom, but now it is the house; no other than the Son has an abiding place there.

G.F. Does God give us the Spirit of adoption that we might be at home there?

J.T. Yes, the Spirit of adoption gives us the feelings suitable; the word in Galatians 4:6 is "because ye are sons". In verse 5 it had said, "That we might receive sonship" Galatians 4:5,6 -- that is His mind about us in Christ.

Ques. Do you mean when the glory filled the house the sons would be at perfect liberty, at home?

J.T. Quite so, and however great the glory, they are equal to it. So in 2 Chronicles 5 the glory entered the house and the priests could not minister, but that does not mean in the type that the sons could not remain there; they are equal to the glory.

Priesthood is only a type; sonship is a family relationship, and no glory in the economy is great enough to shut them out. God dwells in light unapproachable, but in the economy there is no glory too great for the sons; they are equal to it. And, as you are remarking, sonship is received: "That we might receive sonship"; Galatians 4:5 that is light. That is to say, the mind of God is that we should be sons. "Ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus" Galatians 3:26 -- that is the mind of God, but the Spirit in us makes us suitable. The acceptance of the position is not enough; the Spirit of adoption makes me consciously a son. We have been speaking of the thought of Father, that the relationship of Father and Son does not necessitate the death of Christ; it was introduced unconditionally: "This is my beloved Son", and "Thou art my beloved Son". There is no condition attaching to it, and we are brought into that; redemption had to be accomplished in order that we should be brought into it, but the relationship itself is a question of eternal counsels; and the son abides in the house for ever, he is not only a son in name, but in consciousness in the Spirit of adoption. The more we take that in the better, that there is no fear or anxiety at all of ever being rejected; we abide in the house for ever.

A.A. Does that greatly add to our service? You have been speaking of the service of the assembly a good deal; does the apprehension of what you have been saying impart a tone and lustre to our assembly service, as we speak of it, to the Father and to God?

J.T. It does, I am at liberty, I have not a shade of uncertainty, I am as near as Christ is -- as He is, so am I. The more we take it in the better and the more effective our service.

Ques. Would the Son have to do with each one of us as in the house to bring us into the liberty that is His?

J.T. I think so. Take Paul; he says, "The Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me", Galatians 2:20 and in that He has taken me into sonship; it is by faith in Christ Jesus. Some may think it is by faith simply, but it is by faith in Christ Jesus. "Ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus". Galatians 3:26. But then faith gives the light of the thing; the Spirit of adoption involves the feelings proper to it, that I am as really a son as Christ is.

W.F. Is it the work of the Son to bring us into the gain of sonship? It says, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be indeed free".

J.T. That is what He is doing all the time. Paul says, He "loved me and gave himself for me"; Galatians 2:20 it is an individual transaction. It is very wonderful! He is carrying on other things too for us, but that is the thing to bring us into the state that answers to the counsels of God.

R.E. Would Hebrews 2 help in connection with the thought of "bringing many sons to glory"? Hebrews 2:10.

J.T. Well, there it is God is doing it. "It became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings". Hebrews 2:10. That is, He is the leader, He is the One who sets this thing out -- the word means that He is the thing, "perfect", meaning He has taken on an order of humanity we can have part in. That is what He is doing; He is our leader in this matter and He has taken each of us up to bring us to it, because it is the divine mind; the counsels of God are involved in it.

M.P. Would the thought of training come in there? "He that delicately bringeth up his servant from a child shall have him become his son at the length", Proverbs 29:21. Is it the thought of training under the hand of Christ?

J.T. That is very good. The Lord is working at us all the time. The discipline spoken of in Hebrews 12 has it in mind, of course.

J.S. I suppose the Lord was carrying out this work in Peter when He said, "Then are the sons free".

J.T. That is it. Matthew has it in mind, as He comes down from the mountain. It is a question of personality in Matthew, and that meant, as the Lord says, "That take, and give unto them for me and thee": Matthew 17:27 it is association with Christ in sonship.

Ques. Does taking on the Spirit of Christ in adoption depend on being under the influence of the Son?

J.T. One may come in as a child or even as a servant, but you come into sonship; He has nothing less before Him than that.

W.S. Is it suggested in what the Lord says to Moses, "Israel is my son, my firstborn ... Let my son go, that he may serve me", Exodus 4:23 before the blood of the paschal lamb was shed?

J.T. That is the thing, it took centuries to work it out, for really it was not reached till Solomon's time: Solomon was the son. The great service of God, the culminating thought, is in the Son, and that is the meaning of 2 Chronicles 5.

Ques. Is that why, at the end of Chronicles, they were to sanctify themselves according to the writings of David and Solomon his son, and to put the holy ark in the house of Solomon the son of David; as though that is what God had in mind in a day of recovery? Is not that the principle?

J.T. Quite so. He speaks there of the holy ark which should be in its place. It says in chapter 34: "The king stood in his place". 2 Chronicles 34:31 The ark evidently was taken out of its place, and then the priests are sanctified and in their place, the singers in their place, the doorkeepers in their place. So you have

praise the like of which was not heard since the days of Samuel, showing that sonship underlies all these things.

R.W. Have you in mind the Lord's present service in relation to His own with regard to the freedom you have referred to in John 8? I was thinking of Luke 22, and the Lord's service to His own there.

J.T. Quite so, it is the dignity of the position now. In Josiah's time what was stressed was that everything was right; it is not only authority, but, as one might say; there is the refinement of feeling that belongs to the service of God, so there must not be anything out of place. We can see how the Lord is bringing us back to sonship. Many have not much thought of what God is doing, what He is calling attention to, how He is bringing in His people, and how, under the rule and service of the Son, everything must be right; it is not arbitrary, it is obviously necessary; everything must be in its place under Josiah. In the passover under Hezekiah they had to get a month's grace, the second month instead of the first month; things were not up to the mark and Hezekiah said, "The good Lord pardon every one". 2 Chronicles 30:18. The Lord has to pardon a good deal that is amongst us, but the great thought is perfection, "Let us go on unto perfection". Hebrews 6:1. We shall see in regard to priesthood that Christ's work enters into perfection, not in any personal sense but in regard to what is needed by us; everything must flow out of what answers to the counsels of God. So Josiah is the model; the king is in his place and the ark and the Levites and the singers and the doorkeepers in their places; and then the Spirit of God says, "There was no passover like to that kept in Israel from the days of Samuel the prophet". 2 Chronicles 35:18. It is a question of the kind of passover, how everything was right. People say, That is a minor matter, whether we have two cups or four; but the record as to Josiah's passover is to show us

that we must pay attention to details. As in any well-ordered house, things must be right, and they are right under sonship.

R.E. Do I gather that that is particularly connected with the kingdom, or does the house also come into it?

J.T. I am speaking of the house particularly, but then the king was in his place, meaning the background was the kingdom, and that is the point. If we are translated into the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love, the first thing is the house and the next thing is the priesthood. So in the passage we read, "For the law constitutes men high priests, having infirmity; but the word of the swearing of the oath which is after the law, a Son perfected for ever". He is the Minister of the sanctuary, as the next verses tell us, He is a Son perfected for ever. It is a question of what He is as a Man, He is the Son and the service of God is in His hands, and everything is perfect.

Ques. Referring again to Josiah, they are enjoined to stand in the sanctuary, does that fit in with your last scripture?

J.T. I think it does, it is the proper place of service. The Lord is seen standing in resurrection, particularly in Luke and John; it is a question of the service of God now, we are ready for it; He is bringing the saints into it. Forty days were needed to make them spiritual, but, as going into heaven, according to the beginning of Hebrews, He is set down there and He is the Minister of the sanctuary: the service is to go on.

DIVINE ENDS REACHED AS THE LORD COMES IN

Luke 1:8 - 13; Luke 24:36 - 49

J.T. Other scriptures will need to be looked into about our subject. The leading thought in mind is that Luke would show that divine ends, especially assembly service, can only be reached as the Lord comes in and takes part. We have noticed that Zacharias was occupied with his service, which was, according to the order of his course, to burn incense; it says, "All the multitude of the people were praying without at the hour of incense", as if the great thought of the altar and prayer could only become effective as the angel came in, "standing on the right of the altar of incense". He came in in regard of what was there, he appeared to Zacharias, but at the right of the altar of incense, that is, in relation to what was going on; and the Lord, in the last chapter, is seen standing in their midst. The saints had been gathered and were speaking; they had begun, but obviously from the verses read they could not reach an end according to God had not the Lord stood in their midst. It does not say in this particular case that He came -- John says He came, "Then came Jesus" John 20:26; that is, the condition, well known to the Lord, hardly warranted the thought of His coming; His place is standing in their midst. The word 'came' in John involves certain conditions to be more in keeping with the Lord. Brethren will remember the wording in John 20:19 - 21, "When therefore it was evening on that day, which was the first day of the week, and the doors shut where the disciples were, through fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and says to them, Peace be to you". There is nothing said of any activity or speaking on their part; the Lord evidently came in relation to the state that was there, which would mean the

condition was suitable. Here it would seem that it is the concrete condition He had in mind; they had already begun speaking, and, although what was being said was suitable so far, their state did not agree wholly with what they were saying, so that the word 'came' is omitted and the Lord is just said to stand there Himself and it is in their midst -- the persons that were present: whereas in John it is the midst, having a wider bearing evidently. It is as if we cannot go on to the wider thought, the universal spiritual side of the assembly condition, apart from the local concrete condition, the state of the saints -- "As they were saying these things", it says, "he himself stood in their midst": in John's account it is "Jesus came".

Ques. Do you get the same principle in John 12? It says Jesus came to Bethany; but in Matthew it is, "Being in Bethany, in Simon the leper's house". Matthew 26:6 Is that the same thing in another setting?

J.T. I think that is good. It is very likely Luke and John record the same events, and so do John and Matthew record the same events. It is very likely that it was what Matthew records without mentioning Mary's anointing, and that it occurred at the same time; but anyway John gives you the state that was evidently agreeable and wholly suitable to the Lord.

P.L. Does the coming suggest attraction, that there is affinity of mind with the Lord as with Mary of Bethany; and does the other suggest the Lord condescending in compassionate service on His own initiative to meet conditions?

J.T. Yes, as if there can be nothing at all if He does not. It reminds us that, although we may be saying the right things, the divine end cannot be reached without the Lord.

P.L. Would the first thought be priesthood, what John speaks of -- the minister of the sanctuary?

J.T. It would be more that perhaps. It is a wider thought in John, I think: "the midst" is spiritually a wider thought than "their midst". It is "their midst" in Luke, as if the Lord would say, I am not ignoring local conditions. They were not restful.

W.C. Would the principle be in Joshua 5, where it says, "There stood a man over against him", Joshua 5:13 and then the Lord says, "As captain of the host of the Lord am I now come" Joshua 5:14 -- that is in conflict, but would the principle be there?

J.T. I think it would, "Am I now come", the allusion, I suppose, would be to what had preceded as to the requirements in the land, circumcision and so on. "Am I now come" -- He would take charge of such a host; it would now be recognised as Jehovah's host.

W.C. Would you say a little as to how we might discern the Lord's arrival in this way as we are together?

J.T. We have first the thought mentioned in regard to Gabriel in chapter 1; then we see it more clearly in chapter 24. Zacharias was carrying on; the order was right. He had already prayed and the angel alludes to the fact that his supplications had been heard, but he was unbelieving. The angel stands at the right of the altar of incense; prayer is going on. It says, "All the multitude of the people were praying without at the hour of incense", and the angel of the Lord appears to him standing on the right of the altar of incense; as much as to say, 'The prayers will be effective and can only be effective by my being here'. And Zacharias was troubled, but the angel said to him, "Fear not, Zacharias, because thy supplication has been heard", and so on; and he questions what the angel says, and the angel says, "I am Gabriel" -- he announces who it is that has come, "who stand before God, and I have been sent to speak to thee, and to bring these glad tidings to thee; and behold, thou shalt be silent and not able to speak, till the day in which these things shall take place, because thou hast not believed my words, the which shall be fulfilled in their time". Luke 1:19,20.

It seems to me that the point is that there had been prayers and there were prayers, and that the angel standing at the right in regard of what is on hand is to make all effective, that there might be real results, but the state forbade it; at least the state was not in keeping with the opportunity, and so discipline had to come in in the case of Zacharias. Now in chapter 24 the Lord stood there too, the service was going on, so to say, they were saying the right things so far, but the state was not right; and not only that, but the Lord was intimating that He is taking account of the service so far, that what they were doing and saying was quite right, but he says, 'You must have Me, and I am here to serve', because He is standing, not that He came and stood, but He Himself stood there in their midst, among them, to do what was needful.

C.H. Had you in mind that the service must go on, and so with the saints together in chapter 24 the service was beyond the state?

J.T. Well, they were saying right things in both cases; outwardly they were right, and it would seem as if the Lord is honouring what they are saying; indeed the angel too coming in chapter 1 is honouring what was there, for it is a question of the altar of incense, that is to say, a question of real results being reached according to God, and he is at the right of the altar of incense. The Lord standing, according to chapter 24, was in the same sense; He was there to make effective according to God all that entered into the position -- He stood there. It is not that He came complacently, that is not the point; He stood in their midst, as if to say, 'I am there in relation to you. There is a great deal enters into this, but I am in your midst knowing every one of

you abstractly'. In John it is the abstract thought, the saints, as having the Spirit and gathered according to God are abstractly according to His mind, but then the local concrete condition cannot be passed over, and there is no use in proceeding unless we accept the actual local condition.

Rem. So that in Luke we find them confounded and frightened when they see the Lord.

J.T. Yes, they were not really equal to the position. The position itself is right, and the two that left Emmaus and found the eleven and those with them were right. In fact they confirmed the position that it was right, the saints there were the ones that should be there and what they were saying, so far, was right; but they were not equal to the position and all that entered into it.

Rem. In John the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

J.T. Yes, that is the abstract thought, which we may come to later. Our position, the position of the brethren today, coming together to break bread, is right, it is as right as the position was at Troas, and, being right, all the divine mind enters into it as to the assembly; it is God's assembly, in that sense, and the mind of God enters into it; and the Lord is ready; He comes in in relation to what we are abstractly according to John and as complacent in it from that point of view. But, according to Luke, He cannot pass over the local condition, and He does not come, as it were complacently; He just stands there: "He himself stood in their midst", Luke 24:36 that is the local position.

P.L. Is it the difference between the glory appearing at the door of the tabernacle in various crises, often where the state was unsuitable, and the glory filling the house, where all is complacent?

J.T. That is good, I am sure. The glory did appear and left immediately; it appeared too to correct,

but in the end of Exodus and 2 Chronicles 5, it came in complacently to take the whole position over in each case. We have to wait and see now. If the Lord is just standing there Himself and says, Peace, He has nothing else in His mind for us but peace; still, His presence will bring out what is there; it is sure to bring out what is there.

Rem. Not in view of our being hindered from going forward, but that we might be helped to go on to God's end.

J.T. That is the thought. He is ready to do what is necessary, but the divine end is in His mind. In chapter 22 He condescends to have preparations made for His coming. They eat the passover; He does not come to them as they begin but as they proceed. But the ground is changed at that point, He institutes the Supper and that is their matter; they are to come together to break bread; that is their matter, so that He comes in as they are proceeding, not at the beginning.

Ques. Will you say a word as to the Lord's question, "Why are thoughts rising in your hearts?" Luke 24:38. What kind of thoughts would they be?

J.T. They would not be like the living water springing up into everlasting life.

Ques. Something out of the control of the Spirit, you mean?

J.T. Yes, just so, adverse or extraneous things. Why are they arising? If these thoughts are arising you will not make a way for the Lord. John the baptist's ministry was to make a way for the Lord, and when Abraham set the pieces over against each other he intended to make a way for the Lord to come in. He put piece against piece of the creatures he slew under the Lord's direction in Genesis 15 and the fowls of the air came down; they would hinder all that, and Abraham scares them away. There was not that power here. These thoughts are loose lawless

kinds of things without control, arising in our hearts, and it is very common with us that these foreign thoughts become rampant instead of being under control. The apostle says, "I myself with the mind serve God's law" Romans 7:25 -- these thoughts are not according to God's law.

H.B. Would it be a matter of faith, even if the condition is low, to recognise that the Lord is with us and to seek to hear His voice and prove His power?

J.T. I think so. Why are these thoughts arising in your heart? Romans 7 would teach us to control ourselves. This thought cannot be right, you say, I disallow it, it is like a fowl coming down, foreign elements disturbing the conditions; they prevent the Lord coming in. These thoughts must not be allowed scope. The thing is to make a way for the Lord, He is on the way, He is not sitting but standing and these thoughts arising block His way.

W.C. Do these thoughts reflect back on what we may have been occupied with during the six days of the week?

J.T. I think so. We ought to habituate ourselves to control. "If, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body" Romans 8:13 -- that is the principle. The point reached at the end of Romans 7 is that I resolve with the mind to keep God's law, whatever it may be; it is not specified there. If I accustom myself to that, when sitting down in assembly I will not allow these foreign thoughts to be rampant, blocking the Lord's way. It says here, "But they, being confounded and being frightened, supposed they beheld a spirit. And he said to them, Why are ye troubled? and why are; thoughts rising in your hearts?"

W.C. You were alluding to birds just now; would it be illustrated in the raven and the dove in the ark? It is a question which bird, so to speak, we are identified with, whether we are identified with

the Holy Spirit. It says, "The mind of the flesh is death" -- that would be the raven, I suppose -- "but the mind of the Spirit life and peace". Romans 8:6.

J.T. I think that is good. There is a beautiful link between the dove and Noah; he took her unto him into the ark. She found no resting-place for her foot and came back to Noah. These thoughts the Lord alludes to here, I am sure, and they hinder our meetings if they are allowed; they are not to be allowed, they are to be under control. Why are they arising in our hearts?

Ques. Is the principle exemplified in Exodus 34, when Jehovah instructed Moses to be ready for the morning, to hew for himself two tables? He seems to be ready for divine communications, and it says Jehovah came down and stood before him there. Is that the principle of a man serving the law of God, being under divine control and ready for a divine manifestation?

J.T. I think that is good, he is in entire keeping with the position, the Lord passing before him announced who and what He is; that is, there was a way for the Lord. John the baptist made a way for the Lord, so that, if He came in, the point, I suppose, would be here that there should be a way for Him; instead of that, He finds confusion, they are troubled and these unbelieving thoughts are rampant.

C.H. John 20 says, "The doors being shut". John 20:26 Does that come in in this connection? You are speaking of the mind and control of what is inward.

J.T. It does indeed; they took care of that. The doors would be the doors of our hearts, as has often been pointed out. It is not 'door', it is not the idea of a room entrance through which each of us comes; the idea is a spiritual one, the doors of our hearts are in mind; that is, the disciples are viewed there abstractly, I believe, in the light of the message the

Lord had sent to them; Mary had come and told them these things, she said she had seen the Lord and that He had spoken these things to her. It would seem as if their hearts treasured the message and they did not want Him disturbed. It was where the disciples were, and then it says, "Jesus came and stood in the midst". John 20:26.

C.H. I wondered if the allusion to the Jews would suggest the concern that was with them lest that which was merely outward should be a hindrance.

J.T. Yes, if the Jews got in they would block the Lord's way; that is the idea of legality, to block the divine way. The Jewish element shuts the Lord out; it is incompatible with the heavenly calling, so that, if the Lord came in as He did there, it would be in relation to the heavenly call, the message He sent before.

A.B. Is it very like John 14, "Let not your heart be troubled" John 14:27,28 and then, "I am coming to you"?

J.T. Yes, one might suggest reading a verse from John 14, for it enters into this matter. The Lord said, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you" John 14:18 -- that follows the announcement that He would send the Spirit; it is contingent on the presence of the Spirit here. It is the Spirit that is needed to make a way for the Lord; the Spirit is the medium through which He comes, and John 14 contemplates that the Spirit would be there, and consequent upon that, He would come.

Ques. I would like to ask, in regard of these verses, how the Lord waits on the saints, whether it would suggest we should give time to conserve the actual impression the Lord may give us at the Supper, and not be in too much of a hurry to move away from it?

J.T. I think that is good. Room should be given to Him too to adjust our thoughts as to what enters into the Supper, the idea of the assembly in its relation

to Him and His relation to it. So, after the Supper is finished, I believe the Lord would take occasion to enlarge our view as to the assembly's relation to Him and His to her. I was thinking today that in Exodus, before the actual service of God is entered upon, Moses' wife returns to him; she had been away and her father brings her back with the children. I believe that there is a touch in it as to the service of God, that Christ and the assembly are in mind in a pre-eminent way. The idea of the bride really, as you might say, originated with the Father; that is, this condition is the relation which He had in mind, and it is not only for the satisfaction of Christ, but for the satisfaction of God. It was God that said, "It is not good that Man should be alone" Genesis 2:18, and He evidently had pleasure in the relation formed between Adam and Eve. Then in the next great type of the assembly, that is Rebecca, we find the same thing, that the father is concerned about the son having his bride; he is seen as alone in the field meditating, but Sarah's tent is unoccupied; that would be Israel's position, involving the service of God. So Abraham is greatly concerned as to the bride Isaac is to have and that the nuptials should be in relation to the heavenly side of the position -- Isaac does not come down from the mount, according to the facts mentioned. Abraham's servant came down from Beer-sheba, as if it is a heavenly matter now, and then there is concern that the wife should be of his order, of his family, so that the scene is filled out in that way as originating with the Father. And now, in Moses' case, when the service is about to be inaugurated, we have the wife brought back by her father in Exodus 18; the Spirit is seen typically in chapter 17. We have indeed Joshua introduced in chapter 17 and then Zipporah is brought back in chapter 18, and chapter 19 begins the service of God, because it was to be on that mountain, that is

where the service was to begin. We ought to make room for Christ in the assembly, ample room, because it involves union, and it involves our most intimate relations with Christ and gives Him scope as to material in answering to the Father, in answering to God in His service. What do you say about that?

P.L. Your point is that what is obviously in union with Christ would be sensitive to His quickening power as Head in relation to the service of God?

J.T. I think it enriches it, speaking reverently; the Lord is capable of being affected Himself: "Jesus rejoiced in spirit", Luke 10:21 we are told, at a certain time, and it was in relation to the saints. He had already said, "Your names are written in heaven", Luke 10:20 and He rejoiced in spirit, and proceeded to speak to them about the Father and about Himself. "No one knows who the Son is but the Father, and who the Father is but the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son is pleased to reveal him", Luke 10:22. And then He turns to His disciples, as if they were now in His mind. It seems to me that, unless we make full room for the assembly, we have incompleteness in the position. The completion of the divine mind is the wife, the divine mind in man is the wife; we see that in Genesis.

P.L. John 12 emphasises that; He has something for His own heart in Bethany.

J.T. You can see how He reached something. I suppose it is the Jewish position in the beginning of chapter 12 in Bethany, but still He reached a definite end, so that there is completion there so far. Then there is something more in chapter 13, because He says, "Unless I wash thee, thou hast not part with me", John 13:8 but He wants to carry the saints along with Him, and we know that Paul's ministry coming in adds the great divine thought, it was the full bringing out of the divine mind; Christ is "head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all". Ephesians 1:22.

It is the bringing out of the divine mind, and Paul introduces the Lord's supper as he does, receiving it directly from the Lord in heaven. These facts would convey to us that we must make full room for Christ in the assembly, the assembly viewed as His bride.

Ques. Would you say that, whilst the nuptials belong to the heavenly side, Exodus 18 suggests the wilderness at the moment?

J.T. That would be the thought of the Lord's supper -- sitting down in that way.

Rem. Yes. I was thinking of that, for it mentions definitely that Moses took his sons and his wife into the wilderness, as if that was a great incentive to move to the heavenly side.

J.T. Then in the Song of Songs we have, "Who is this that cometh up from the wilderness, leaning upon her beloved?". Song of Songs 8:5 It is Christ and the assembly, and now there is moving forward both in Christ and in the saints, speaking reverently. I believe there is great perfection and glory shining in affection.

W.C. Would the allusion in Exodus 2 to Moses being forgotten by the daughters of Reuel after serving them indicate the tendency with us to forget the Lord? Reuel says, "Where is he? why then have ye left the man behind?" Exodus 2:20.

J.T. Quite so, they had not considered for him.

W.C. Is there in your allusion to chapter 18 the thought of recovery? Apparently Zipporah is subject now; we do not hear more of her.

J.T. I think Jethro is remarkable -- carrying forward the thought. Moses is content to dwell with the man. You might say, Because he was going to marry his daughter, but that is not the point. It is the kind of man Moses was; he was content to dwell in circumstances unpleasant naturally, he was a subject man, subject to God, and that finds its full answer

in Christ, what He accepted here. Now, the deliverance of the people having come about, her father brings her to Moses in the wilderness, as if to fill out the position before he enters on the service of God which had been spoken of earlier. That was the great thought in the mind of God, "Ye shall serve God upon this mountain" Exodus 3:12 -- but before the service begins the wife is brought to him.

P.L. So you have what you have alluded to as personality, "I, thy father-in-law Jethro, am come to thee". Exodus 18:6.

J.T. That is very good. It brings out the position of Jethro and his advice to Moses, too. There is the complete filling out of the position of Moses that he is not alone in the thing; he has his wife now and his children too. All that enters, I think, into the Lord's supper.

Ques. Would you say, in the Song of Songs, that what is in mind earlier is what the bridegroom says to the bride, "The voice of the turtle is heard in our land ...", Song of Songs 2:12 but at the end of the book, she moves leaning on her beloved? Is that the heavenly side?

J.T. Yes, quite so. The main thought, I think, is the Lord. After the emblems are all finished with, restfulness before the Lord would lead to reciprocation of affection between Him and ourselves in the light in which we are now speaking of ourselves, namely, as of the assembly. There are many hymns that speak of the saints in that light that do not make room for the relation between Christ and the assembly, but, if we are able to speak to the Lord on these lines, I believe there will be great enrichment and confirmation too as to the assembly's place, filling out the position, because the assembly is always the fulness of Christ.

Ques. Is it illustrated in Hosea where we get two sections placed together; the end of one is, "Thou shalt call me, My husband" Hosea 2:16, and the

next section is, "Thou art my people; and they shall say, My God" Hosea 2:23. Is that in keeping with the same position?

J.T. I think it is.

A.B. In connection with being to Another, it is in view that we should bring forth fruit to God.

J.T. That fits nicely, "To be to another, who has been raised up from among the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God", Romans 7:4 and then it goes on to say, "That we should serve in newness of spirit"; Romans 7:6 it seems the two thoughts are put together there in Romans.

H.L. Will you say a word as to the way in which the Lord calls attention to Himself in Luke, "It is I myself"?

J.T. He is there in assembly and is to be distinguished from the Spirit. It is the Lord we are dealing with and He is to be spoken to, as amongst us in an objective way.

-.H. Does this passage in Luke suggest that the Lord is able to overcome defective conditions in ourselves?

J.T. Yes, the facts show He is not going past these conditions; He will not proceed merely on abstract lines to reach the end He desires; He must take account of the actual concrete conditions in the company. Otherwise we should be just going on objectively without regard to the actual state of the brethren.

P.S. Would you say a word as to the introduction of the principle of resurrection as set out in the bones; how it would help us in the matter?

J.T. You mean the Lord says, "Handle me and see, for a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having". "Flesh and bones" does involve resurrection; that raises the whole point as to the fact that not a bone of the passover lamb was to be broken,

and immediately you have, in that connection, Joseph's bones. The Lord here alludes to a raised state, for it is not "flesh and blood", but "flesh and bones"; bones carry forward more the identity of the person, the whole idea.

ELEVATION IN THE WILDERNESS

Exodus 19:1 - 3,17; Exodus 24:9 - 18

J.T. We have the idea of elevation stressed as in the wilderness in these scriptures, and also of course in the land; particularly we see it in the gospel of Matthew. David makes much of the idea of mountains -- elevation, and, in a general way, before we look into the verses read, it may be helpful to call attention to Moses' remarks as to the mountains in the blessing of Joseph in Deuteronomy 33:15, "By the best things of the ancient mountains, and by the precious things of the everlasting hills". He introduces that thought in the blessing of Joseph, and we read also, in the blessing of Zebulun and Issachar, how people were invited to the mountain. The thought of the mountain no doubt alludes to Genesis where, for our present purpose, chapter 22 should be noted, that is, where Isaac was to be offered up; it is called the mount of Jehovah there and provision should be made there. In Exodus the matter is made very specific in the appearance of Jehovah to Moses at the bush at Horeb, and the word was that Israel was to serve Jehovah upon this mountain, namely Horeb, where God had appeared to Moses, as it is said, at the thorn-bush. So that the matter is set in that relation in Genesis, and it gives character to the service of God as inaugurated there. Chapter 19 brings in the thought strikingly and shows how God, in the Mediator, would stress the thought. Israel encamped, we are told, in the wilderness of Sinai, and then, "Israel encamped there before the mountain. And Moses went up to God, and Jehovah called to him out of the mountain", and, that point being established, the Mediator has a peculiar place in this respect, as in others. It says, "And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet with God; and

they stood at the foot of the mountain", and then we are told, "Jehovah came down on mount Sinai, on the top of the mountain". Exodus 19:20. So the Mediator's place is made clear in this respect and the people are brought to the mountain, brought to meet God, but at the foot of the mount; that is our place there; then there is the idea of ascension for the people, not only for the Mediator, but for the people. Between chapters 19 and 24 we have four chapters which are really on another matter, namely, how Israel was to be in the land, the question of the terms on which they were to be in the land, and then the Spirit of God brings us back again to the idea of the wilderness and the mountain in chapter 24 in order to bring out that God's thought for the people, too, was elevated, so that what is set out in the Mediator is then opened up to us. That is what I was thinking of, having in mind that the assembly service is in view in this book; it is a question of the service of God; that is what is connected with the mountain in chapter 3. It is just to bring before us this great principle of assembly service, even in the wilderness, that is, this elevation that is opened up to us.

H.H. You mean it is not all on a level plane, but the mountains indicate something on a higher level?

J.T. That is it, but then, in the land the same thing is true; in the eternal state of things there are higher levels too: there are the everlasting hills, as well as the ancient mountains. The Lord, we are told, went beyond all the heavens; Paul went to the third heaven; there are lower levels here, but yet elevated. All this is to instruct our minds, to form us.

E.G. Does it show that christians are a heavenly people and are to inhabit heaven, not the earth?

J.T. That is what is in mind, that God has for His people elevation and very extended too, in variety. We begin on a low level: Romans, I think,

is the level on which moral questions are all settled, so that Moses brings them out to meet God and they stood at the foot of the mount. I have to begin there, I think.

Ques. Does Abraham set out the idea in the chapter you quoted, Genesis 22, where he introduced the thought of worship at the beginning, "I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you"? Genesis 22:5.

J.T. Very good. That was a proper thing there. It shows how the minds of the saints were being instructed and stored with right thoughts from the outset, so that, referring back to the ancient mountains, it must be that blessing is attached to them. Noah would have come into the course of instruction, for in truth it is that; it is building up in one saint and another, so that all the instruction comes to us, the assembly having the first place with God, and it is now for us to make use of it and get it rightly in our minds.

Rem. So, in that way, there is a proper sphere for the service of God, and the service of the Mediator would introduce us into that sphere that we might be in it according to God.

J.T. Yes, I think we see the idea in Moses in Exodus, typical of Christ. The movements of Christ as seen in the New Testament are for us, including "all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us" Acts 1:21; in all that time there were elevations too, the Lord going up, and, as He ascended finally, attention is called to the manner of it, "They beholding him" Acts 1:9, as if that were part of the instruction, and that He would come back, the descent would be in keeping with that. In the interval we have all the instruction to carry out.

F.I. Have you in mind that, as we take account of the Lord as Mediator in the wilderness setting in

His place of elevation, we should be brought to such a position?

J.T. That is the service of Christ for us, I think. He leads in every respect and particularly in this thought of going up, ascending and descending. When on earth He spoke to Nathanael about the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man, that would be something to be seen; He was an Object here below, but then there was His own ascent, "they beholding him". Acts 1:9.

Ques. Do you think the teaching of the kingdom, closing with chapter 18, would bring about a state in the saints to be able to sit down composedly at the foot of the mountain?

J.T. That seems to be the thought. It brings in another thing, namely Jethro, a very important man as a type here. It is not in mind now in the subject, but it is a very interesting matter that that chapter comes in between chapter 17, that treats of the Spirit at Rephidim, and the matter of ascension; we have ascension there as a matter of fact.

H.H. I notice you refer to Deuteronomy 33. It says, "The best things of the ancient mountains" Deuteronomy 33:15, and a note says, instead of 'things' the word 'head' may be used; and then it says, "The precious things of the everlasting hills". I suppose that would encourage us to have mountains in our thoughts and movements.

J.T. It seems so -- the ancient mountains and the everlasting hills. I suppose we have to come to the New. Testament for everlasting hills; the ancient mountains would bring in the old things: there are the new things and there are the old things, and no doubt Ararat and the mountain of Jehovah in Genesis 22 would help on that line.

P.L. Would the ancient mountains cover more the covenant position and the everlasting hills allude

to the elevation peculiar to christianity in the assembly?

J.T. I think so, especially as attention is called to the Lord as He went up, they beholding Him, and then it is said He "shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven", Acts 1:11 the manner of His going in.

Ques. Does that abstraction from the activities of men involve expectancy in relation to the mountain? If He were coming again, for instance, they would be expectant, with their eyes heavenward.

J.T. Quite so, in their hearts anyway. The two say, "Why stand ye gazing up into heaven?" Acts 1:11, for He had gone out of their view. They seemed to go back into Jerusalem with the thought of elevation; they went to the upper room, that is, instead of being occupied with their literal position; the point is they are to go and carry on with that great thought in their minds; it is the principle of withdrawal from this world, getting away from it.

Ques. Do you connect that with the wilderness position?

J.T. I think that is what is seen here, for the four chapters I have alluded to really teach how Israel is to be in the land and how the worship is to be carried on there; they build an altar there, so that they pass over time; we have time in our minds, but God is saying, I have not finished with the wilderness yet. It is not that it is simply accidental; we have not come into it accidentally or perforce because we have to go somewhere, but God would say, I have more in My mind about that. So He gives instructions in chapters 21 to 23, and He comes back to this matter, namely that of Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders. Now the next thing is, what will the Mediator do in the light of this? There is instruction in all this. That is chapter 24

P.H. Do I understand you to mean that the people encamped before the mountain is to bring this great matter of elevation primarily before us? Are we to see it primarily in Christ?

J.T. I think that is the thought. "In the third month after the departure of the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai: they departed from Rephidim" -- that is alluding to the Spirit, as I understand it, the great battle in regard of the Spirit, meaning our state of soul, that we have had to do with death. Romans 7 is passed, we have left that position, and they "came into the wilderness of Sinai, and encamped in the wilderness", and then it says, "Israel encamped there before the mountain". Now they are in a position suitable to the present purpose of God, and hence we have Moses going up to God. The Mediator has liberty to do that, I suppose alluding to Christ personally. He has always liberty to do that, and then Jehovah called to him out of the mountain, and so forth. I think the idea is that the people are where God would have them, and, in truth, as we learn the flesh, as in chapter 17 at the battle of Rephidim, and arrive at the thought of the Spirit, we are where God would have us; now He can do something with us. They accepted the wilderness and they pitched before the mountain, they encamped; an encampment is an educational position for a period of time. So now they are ready for resources, the thought is carried down from Genesis 22 that the mountain is a place of provision, and they are ready for that. Now the principle is Moses going up.

H.H. Do you think that Hebrews would allow for these thoughts of elevation? The position is a wilderness one, yet opportunities are provided for the saints, as it were, to take on a higher level, as, for instance, it says in Hebrews, "Ye have come to mount Zion". Hebrews 12:22.

There you have a mountain, and there is the consciousness of the high priest having gone in, appearing before the face of God for us.

J.T. That is, I think, in keeping with what we are saying; the scriptures, as we have remarked, are full of it, and the thought is instruction in chapter 24. Jehovah says to Moses, "Come up to me into the mountain, and be there", as much as to say, You are needed up here; this is the place now to carry on from, "and I will give thee the tables of stone", that is, divine principles, applied to ourselves, "and the law, and the commandment that I have written, for their instruction". That instruction is to be from heaven; Moses, the Mediator, is to be there, and the instruction is to be given from there, so that the whole of Scripture, I believe, is instructive. The ends of the ages have come upon us, and it is for us to gather up all these things, and, as we gather them up, we are material for the assembly, we are usable, we are intelligent material; He can take us on and use us; we are available to Him, not simply as members of a congregation, but we are alive in intelligence, being instructed, as it says, "The wise shall understand" Daniel 12:10; we understand, and are ready now for the Lord, whatever He has in mind.

Rem. I was thinking of that in relation to expectancy. If we are brought to the foot of the mountain it is with expectant hearts with regard to what God may have to say to us.

J.T. Well, you feel there is something above you. "Be there", Jehovah says, and it is a question of instruction.

P.H. Moses is called up into the mountain to be there when he and the others are in a much more elevated position than the one which is first suggested in chapter 19. They have already gone up. What is there in that for us?

J.T. I suppose the allusion would be to the progress of the teaching of the apostles. The twelve do not give us much on that line; their names are in the foundations, but Paul gives us elevation. I suppose now they are on a higher level than in Romans; in Romans you are at the foot of the mountain, "Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? ... He that hath clean hands" Psalm 24:3,4, those that are morally right. We must have clean hands or we cannot go up. Now it is assumed they can go up; Moses takes the people in hand to make them ready for that; God does not tell them what to do. From verse 3 to the end of verse 8 it is the action of the Mediator, so it says, "Moses came and told the people all the words of Jehovah, and all the judgements; and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words that Jehovah has said will we do! And Moses wrote all the words of Jehovah, and rose up early in the morning, and built an altar under the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. And he sent the youths of the children of Israel, and they offered up burnt-offerings, and sacrificed sacrifices of peace-offering of bullocks to Jehovah" Exodus 24:3 - 5, and then we have the blood sprinkled on the book and on the people, and then they went up; that is, the moral element is settled. It is Christ taking the thing in hand in relation to what is due to God, and also to fit us for this elevation. It is progress really in the teaching that is in mind, and how we need that!

Ques. "I have borne you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself" Exodus 19:4; is that before us, and is moral work going on then to fit us for that condition?

J.T. God has brought us to Himself. That would be in a moral sense, of course; that is Romans really, not on the mountain yet. Elevation follows that; He is speaking from the mountain, but He

does not say He has brought them up there; it is the moral thought, but elevation is more personal, that you are worthy of going up there.

Ques. Do you connect the first ascent of the seventy with the ministry of the twelve and the ascent of Moses and Joshua with Paul's ministry bringing out what is more distinctive; and then, over and above that, Moses' position, typical of Christ as above all heavens?

J.T. That is good. I do not think Romans implies anything beyond that we are brought to God; Exodus 19 does not take us beyond that; they are brought to God, and not only so by Himself, but it is the work of the Mediator. I think we ought to notice that God does not refer to the Mediator in saying, 'I have brought you to Myself'; it is His own action, but now the Mediator comes in, that is what Christ is to us. And He leads the people out of the camp; the camp is right; they took up that position themselves; applying it to assembly service it would mean we come together and break bread; that is our matter, it is a public matter, it is a camp really: we are pitching, but that is not the end, that is only the beginning, and the Mediator comes in there and He brings them out of that position to meet God. It is not simply that God brings us to Himself in the gospel, but the action of the Mediator in beginning all the great service that is in mind, knowing, as He does, what is in the mind of God; so that He brings out of that position, the camp, which in itself was right, to God -- not up yet, but to God; He is in it now. It is one thing for God to bring me to Himself in the gospel, but it is another thing for Christ to bring me with others to a certain position to meet with God.

Rem. In chapter 19 there seems to be an expressed desire on the part of Jehovah to meet with

the people, that they "may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee also for ever". Exodus 19:9

J.T. I think these chapters are intended to show how we come to value Christ and how He must have His place. Of course hierarchical christianity is left out; it is a question of Christ, first as Mediator and then as Priest. He is acting as Himself here, the Mediator; He knows God and He wants us to meet God, but to meet Him at the foot of the mountain; it is a level place so far. And then God opens up, in chapters 21 - 23, what His thoughts are in view of the future. You are in the wilderness actually and He returns to this position in chapter 24.

A.J.G. Then are these chapters, 20 - 23, to enable us to move up, according to chapter 24, with greater dignity, as heavenly minded?

J.T. I think, having this great prospect before us, what is in these four chapters includes Christ as the Lover of God, the Lover of the assembly, and all that. Great things are opened up to us in these four chapters, and then God comes back to the wilderness again, in chapter 24, as if we are more ready for going up. If I understand my heavenly prospect, that I am going up in truth, why not come into it now in a provisional way?

Ques. Is that why the nobles are mentioned?

J.T. Exactly; there is the anticipation of what we are to be in the land.

P.H. "Moses came and told the people all the words of Jehovah, and all the judgments". Exodus 24:3. Does that expression, "all the judgments" cover these four chapters you have spoken of? I notice in the beginning of the chapter it says, "These are the judgments which thou shalt set before them" Exodus 21:1.

J.T. Yes. Now before those four chapters Moses had gone up, but then the people are to go up, and Moses would say, What about this? God wants you

to go up, but what about those words? I think it is typical. Of course it may be used as contrast in the teaching of christianity rightly, but we may use it typically, that these three chapters enrich us, they give us to see what we are to be in prospect, but it is in the wilderness at the foot of the mountain, and God would say, You are capable of more, and I want you to get it. The wilderness is a provisional thing, as I understand it, so that, when you come to chapter 24, you are still in the wilderness and take on this thought of elevation. Down to the end of verse 11 the actual mountain or place of our ascent is not mentioned; it is mentioned in regard to the building of the pillars, but as a place it is not mentioned, it is a provisional thought; but after verse 11 you will find the word is mentioned very frequently, that Moses is going there, and he is to be there, that Christ is there in the interim.

Ques. So that His being there fixedly would not refer so much to the glory of His Person but to the glory of His mediatorship?

J.T. Yes.

E.G. In chapters 20 - 23 if we are really to be here active in the service of God, it means we have to understand our heavenly position. Take a man like J.N.D., how his hymns speak of the future and going to be with Christ in the heavenly position!

J.T. And in truth I believe, through the goodness of God, in this revival in which we now have part, the first great thing was to open up the heavenly and eternal side -- all things made clear -- and then our part. Ephesians is said to have been the best read part of scripture in those times; the saints were taking it into their minds in prospect, not so much entering into it. Now I think the Lord has brought us round to taking up things in practice and taking up the concrete thought of them, and included in all this is the service of God. It is a

provisional matter, but all these wonderful thoughts are to add richness to us in the thoughts we are taking up now in our present weakness and small conditions. What would you say?

Rem. That is interesting. I was going to enquire as to what you have already pointed out, when it speaks of the seventy going up, that it is confined to the thought of going up, no place being mentioned; it is more than positional.

J.T. It is the state of our souls.

Rem. But with Christ it is position.

J.T. After verse 12 it is the fixed position of the Mediator, so it says, "Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and ascended the mountain. And Moses was on the mountain forty days and forty nights". That is the provisional period.

Ques. So do I gather that the book of Exodus has the wilderness position in mind, but with the heavenly thought in the minds of the saints?

J.T. That is the thought as I see it; what do you say?

P.L. Well, we "have come to mount Zion" Hebrews 12:22; of course that is a more extended thought, but is the thought of elevation there laying hold of the Hebrews?

J.T. That is right; the whole range of things, seven or eight things. We have come to mount Zion; it is just in keeping with all this as enriching our souls. We come to mount Zion "and to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, the universal gathering; and to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven" Hebrews 12:22,23 -- another great thought, registered in heaven; that is the elevation; and then other things on a lower level, but you get all those great things first. "And to God, judge of all; and to the spirits of just men made perfect; and to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant; and to the blood of sprinkling, speaking better than Abel". Hebrews 12:23,24.

Now you will observe we come back again, we go up and come down again, and that is what we get in Exodus.

Rem. But as coming down you bring that light in your soul.

J.T. Yes, you are an Ephesian coming back to Romans and Corinthians.

Rem. So these things would support the saints as in the acceptance of reproach here as in the next chapter.

J.T. Quite so, you see how great you are.

E.G. Is "To God the judge of all" Hebrews 12:23 the highest thought?

J.T. Not exactly, because it is a relative thought; you need it in view of what you are coming back to.

E.G. Is it a central thought?

J.T. Yes, it is a great central thought, and it is needed. Look at the condition of the nations now; we have to carry on provisionally in the midst of all these things; how great a thing it is to have the light of God in our souls!

A.J.G. It is like Daniel whose name means, God is judge, as though that was his support in the circumstances in which he was.

J.T. Quite so, and no one brings that side out more than he does. The position of the nations is a constant menace to the saints; well, God is above that. "The spirits of just men made perfect" Hebrews 12:23 -- well, God will come amongst the brethren who are just; that is what we come down to, what we get in our meetings. And then first, "To Jesus, mediator of a new covenant" Hebrews 12:24; we come back here to how we are to be at liberty in the meetings. This lifts us up and then lets us down, as the sheet was taken up and let down, and goes up finally.

Ques. Would you say a word as to how this would affect us at the Supper, the thought of moral elevation in the service of God? We have been

perhaps a good deal occupied with the position of matters, but would this chapter 24 help us to take on the thought of assembly service properly?

J.T. You see how you come back to "Jesus the mediator" and then to "the blood of sprinkling, speaking better than Abel". Hebrews 12:24. You say, I know my place is in heaven, but I have had to do with things here through the week. But the idea is now we will begin over again at the foot of the mountain.

Ques. Would not Moses saying, "Behold the blood of the covenant" be something like the touch of the Lord on our spirits?

J.T. Quite so.

P.L. The tribes of Jah go up, and then you come back again, for there are set thrones for judgment, "God the judge of all" Hebrews 12:23, then you "pray for the peace of Jerusalem" Psalm 122:6, and "for my brethren and companions' sakes I will now say, Peace be within thee". Psalm 122:8. Is that the practical situation among the brethren?

J.T. Quite so. You can see that in the Songs of Degrees from which you quote, the same thing is there. You begin at the low level, "Woe is me, that I sojourn in Meshech" Psalm 120:5, but, "I lift up mine eyes unto the mountains". Psalm 121:1. He has light in his soul, he knows about Zion and he is going there. What a blessed thing it is to go through all the experiences with the Mediator, He is with us all the time, but He goes higher. Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel go up; He goes higher, but still He is with us.

Ques. Does verse 11 show we are filling out the position for the service of God?

J.T. Quite so. "Upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand; also they saw God, and did eat and drink". They are fit for the place -- nobles. The higher we go, the greater we are; we are not strangers there.

Ques. The last word the people say to God before they go up is 'obedient'; is that an important moral thought in going up?

J.T. Very nice. Such a people can go up. God knew that; He knows what we are equal to and calls us up, so that the epistle to the Hebrews gives boldness of access.

Ques. You have mentioned elsewhere, in regard to John 13, the need for a touch from the Lord, whatever we may do by way of self-judgment and so on; it is imperative that the Lord must touch us and help if the service of God is to take place. Do you think in chapter 24 we get prefigured some service of Christ in relation to the cup in the Supper?

J.T. I think so. The part Moses has corresponds with what is experienced. We come together to do a certain thing, but then He joins us, and we look for that. There is always freshness; we go through the whole thing again, and I think the constant action of Moses is to bring that before us.

Rem. I was thinking of its coming directly before they go up; the attempt to rise without that touch is to attempt something we cannot manage.

J.T. Well, I think it is very beautiful to see how, in the New Testament, the Lord helps people, His constant activity on our behalf. He compels them to go into the boat; they are without Him. In Mark He made as if He would go further, as if to say, 'You are not going on too well'; but in Matthew He walks on the water and He says, "It is I". Peter says, "If it be thou, bid me come unto thee" Matthew 14:27,28; that is a better state of things. John says they were in trying circumstances, and he tells us how much they had rowed; they were making headway. The Lord joins them and they were at the end immediately, showing there is more power there in John; and I think the Lord comes in in that way, and, according

to the state of the meeting, you get ends or you do not get them: sometimes we do not get anything.

P.L. Is that in a suitable Mark setting of levites where the care of the churches is to be carried and we see what the Lord feels about the situation? Is it a word to levites in that way?

J.T. I think it is, and even Luke helps us -- the Lord stood in their midst. It does not say He comes; that thought was not in His mind, He just stood there, but in John He came and stood. I think Mark would say, Well, first of all you have a good deal of light and privilege but the state is not right, and you may not get the Lord; He may go further, you may miss Him.

Ques. Does He not delay coming in Mark? In the evening He saw them, but He awaits the fourth watch (Mark 6:48).

J.T. Quite so, He gives them full opportunity to go further.

P.L. Space for repentance.

P.H. What is involved in the thought of nobles in this chapter?

J.T. I think how you are up there; you are equal to the place up there; Hebrews would make us that, I think. Hebrews would make us bold.

Ques. Would it be reached practically under David in the princely offerings of those who offered? This is the light of that in our souls.

J.T. Quite so. You have more than the Mediator, you have the sweet psalmist of Israel there, the inaugurator of the service of God.

Ques. I was wondering whether the transparent sapphire would indicate the scope of what is before us. We are brought to God; with the Mediator all things would be clear. Would it involve the understanding of the glory of God in all His ways?

J.T. Quite so, 'Heavenly light makes all things bright' (Hymn 12).

P.H. Say a little more, please, about what was under His feet.

J.T. Well, I suppose it is the ground we are on as elevated. Moses and Aaron and the others went up; it does not say they went up to a place, it is just the idea of going up, "and they saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were work of transparent sapphire". It is a created sphere; it is not light unapproachable, it is what God comes into on our account, transparent sapphire, and as it were the form, or body, of heaven for clearness. It would seem as if everything is clear; there is nothing mystical; it is the ground on which God is with us, and, in a way, the ground we may take with Him. What He stood on is like the terms on which He is with us, but it is a created sphere; we will never get into the uncreated sphere, we are creatures always. The Mediator goes higher; He goes beyond the heavens.

Ques. Does it fit in with 2 Corinthians 3?

J.T. Well, going up is more than the covenant; when we come to verses 9, 10 and 11, we have ascent, which is a thought beyond that.

Rem. I was thinking of the transforming.

J.T. There is no transforming here; it is a work under the feet of God, it is the ground on which God is, I think, that is in mind, and we are brought up to it, not that it is said they stood on that. It is the ground on which God is but it is on created ground; we cannot know Him otherwise.

A.J.G. You mean it suggests the economy into which He has come so that we might be brought to know Him.

J.T. It is what is intelligible to us; it is God coming into our condition.

Ques. Do you think that Paul's doxology in Romans 11 shows him to be on this ground with God?

J.T. I think that is good, Romans helps in this in many ways. You get it in the very first chapter, "The Creator, who is blessed for ever". Romans 1:25.

Ques. Do you think the sense these would have of what God was, the ground He was on, would enter into the response He looked for: "Let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them"? Exodus 25:8. Would it give a peculiar sense of the grace that desired to be with them in wilderness circumstances? Do you think that would add lustre to the contributions?

J.T. I think so. The house of God in its provisional setting now is composed of a heavenly people. You do not get the house of God in Romans or in Corinthians, properly; it belongs to Ephesians; it is a heavenly people down here. How could I provide conditions for God, having seen Him up there, save as I have been up there?

Rem. So that the contributions that went to make the sanctuary were really heavenly.

J.T. They must be. If we are to make God a dwelling place, we must see His circumstances up there. God says, as it were, I am content to be without the pavement; that is, He is sacrificing to be with us. The tabernacle was a figurative representation of things above in heaven, but the flooring is that God says, 'I have travelled with you all these years in a tent and a tabernacle'.

P.L. Does John's allusion to the Lord tabernacling amongst us show that grace has dispensed with the pavement?

J.T. I think so.

E.G. It is an extraordinary thing that Nadab and Abihu sank as low as they did according to Leviticus 10.

J.T. Yes, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen". Revelation 2:5. Their guilt was all the greater because they had been up so high.

P.H. You referred earlier to the fact that it is a matter of mind. Do we carry these two positions on together, being up there in Exodus 24, and preparation for the position down here where God would graciously be with us? Does one prepare for the other?

J.T. Certainly, one should never give up his heavenly calling. Carry it in your heart when you are doing your business, or teaching in a school, or whatever it may be; the occupation tends to bring us down and the idea is to begin over again. It is a very, very blessed thought.

P.L. 'Fresh from God's exhaustless tides'. (Hymn 76).

Ques. Would the epistle to the Philippians show us how christians live in the heavenly circumstances? Paul speaks of minding heavenly things and then being content in whatever circumstances he is.

J.T. I think so. Philippians is the heavenly man here; Ephesians is the heavenly man up there. It is a present thing, time is left out there; He has done it: "has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies". Ephesians 2:6.

E.G. Did you say before that the Lord is hampered in His work in us if we do not, in some measure, apprehend Colossians and Ephesians?

J.T. Well, we are not capable of the assembly. He cannot take us on; this divine thought is to have our intelligence. Paul, in Ephesians, stresses the fact that he knew, and he says, I want you to know that I know. Then the next thing is they should know; the thing is knowable, so that the more we know spiritually, the more capable we are of joining the Lord. I believe it is important for the brethren to keep in mind that in the revival the prophetic side was opened up to us and then the heavenly side stressed, but more in an objective way. It was a question of opening the thing up for

us, but now we have other things come in. The great thought forty-five years ago was the reality of eternal life, that it is a thing to be enjoyed; and then subsequently the thought of the service of God. And then, about thirty years ago, the thought was put out that the ground of the assembly is resurrection, which is not true. Christianity is a heavenly thing, it goes up and comes down and goes up again.

H.H. Forty-five years ago the attack was on the heavenly side, was it not?

J.T. Yes, they were making everything objective, and, if you keep on the objective side only, you have nothing but theory; you want the concrete thought, and hence eternal life was to be entered into and enjoyed: Lay hold on it, as Paul says to Timothy. Israel's ground will be resurrection; christianity is on heavenly ground, the assembly is heavenly.

A.J.G. I am not sure I follow the bearing on us at the present time of what you said as to God graciously dispensing with the flooring, the pavement of sapphire, so to speak.

J.T. I think it is to bring out His love that is ready to join us down here where we are. But these references to elevation, I think, are to show us that provisionally we can go up, even in wilderness circumstances..

A.J.G. You do not surrender anything in regard to the wilderness position in going up?

J.T. No. God comes down to our side, but with a view to our going up.

H.H. Cherishing the truth of the house of God helps us to appreciate the thought of going up. Would you say it does not exactly connect itself either with Romans or Corinthians, hence the going up and the thought of the house of God are correlated?

J.T. I think so, the house is composed of what is heavenly.

Ques. Do you think if we hold the heavenly side as light only, there will be a tendency to overlook the wilderness position?

J.T. Quite so, and God is bringing them back to the wilderness.

Rem. I wondered if Hosea would bear on it. "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt" Hosea 11:1; but you also get the alluring her and speaking to her heart, as though she would arrive at that thought through that process; -- bringing her back to that. And really every Lord's day is the same thing with us, you come to the idea no longer Baali but husband; you come into a closer relationship.

E.G. Is that why we come to the Supper again?

J.T. I think so, and it is worth while, for it is a fresh view of Christ every week.

ATTRACTIVENESS OF THE HOUSE OF GOD

John 8:34 - 36; Luke 15:24,25; 1 Peter 2:4,5; Ephesians 2:19 - 22

J.T. It is in mind particularly that we might see the house of God in its attractiveness especially for the young, as affording spiritual enjoyment. To some of them our meetings are dull, and it is needful to keep in mind the features of the house that afford enjoyment, enjoyment that lies in affection rather than in understanding; hence the thought of the house of God must be made concrete. The first scripture has in mind the liberty that is opened up to young believers; the concrete side of the house is in mind rather than the abstract, but the Son abides in it, so that it affords permanence in the way of liberty. Then in Luke it is dependent on the gospel and presented in a peculiarly attractive way as having in it music and dancing, holiness entering into it from the outset, so that, as young ones begin to taste the joys of the house of God, they also begin to realise the need of holiness, that indeed they are possessed of it as having the Holy Spirit themselves. But it is presented in a public way in Luke 15, for the elder brother would discern the merriment going on inside, although he had no taste for it. And then in Peter the holiness is more concrete, it says we ourselves are the living stones as coming to Christ as the living stone, and "built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God", so that the element of sacrifice enters into the service of God. And then finally, that we are at home there, "no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints", not only in the house, but of God's household, the foundation and the ornamentation of it in Christ being the corner-stone; it is ultimately a

habitation of God by the Spirit. In Luke 14 the house is linked up with the gospel, "That my house may be filled". Luke 14:23. That is also an abstract view, only the light and the attraction lie in the fact that the house is mentioned, "my house"; those who enter are seen as particularly suited to it, the point is it is the mind of God for them.

Ques. Will you say a little more of what you have in mind when you speak of the enjoyment being more in the affection than the intelligence?

J.T. Well, music and dancing of course do not require the intelligent side so much; enjoyment is through intercourse with persons from the standpoint of affection. When we come to Peter, we have the idea of life and priesthood; priesthood requires intelligence, but the mere thought of the elements of music and dancing does not stress the idea of intelligence.

M.W.B. Why did you turn to the scripture about liberty first? Is it because we must be set free from what would hinder us?

J.T. I thought that was the first thing to have before us, that the Lord works it out from persons who are serving sin, and young believers are not strangers to that -- alas, none of us is a stranger to that -- but the Lord does not stress the sin side, but that the servant of sin does not abide in the house for ever; being a bondman he has no fixedness there, he may be ejected at any time.

Ques. "Make you free" -- is that deliverance?

J.T. Yes, I think it is. Of course the Lord spoke about them sinning, "Every one that practises sin is the bondman of sin. Now the bondman abides not in the house for ever: the son abides for ever. If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free". It links on with the gospel, but from the standpoint of the profession, I think; that is, those who were already in the profession of christianity,

or in the profession of judaism as it was then; not the gross gentile thing in the world, but whatever was and whatever is now profession.

Ques. Is that why the Son sets free?

J.T. Yes, it is over against the legal profession, not simply that it is legal service, but it is sinful service in that system, and those who are serving thus are bondmen as he says, and they have no title to permanency. The bondman in the type acquires permanency by dying, so to speak, he had his ear bored by the judges, but those who are around us in the profession externally would appear to be serving sin.

Ques. "Cast out the bondwoman and her son" Genesis 21:10 -- would that come in?

J.T. Well, the point is that the servant of sin is himself a bondman, and for that reason he can be ejected, he is not to continue, but it is a very solemn thing that it is a bondman of sin; it makes it a very serious matter for all who are serving in a lawless way, for "sin is lawlessness" 1 John 3:4; even if it be religious lawlessness, it is sin.

M.W.B. Would it answer to what we have in Romans 6:22, "Having got your freedom from sin, and having become bondmen to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness"? The bondman idea is implied there; the "fruit unto holiness" involving your second idea.

J.T. I think that is good, involving the house, as in Peter, and holiness.

M.W.B. This is a liberty implying almost sonship, is it not? That is what is in mind, I think; not that we are said to be sons in John, but the point is that the son is over against the bondman as it works out practically now.

J.T. I think it is those who are serving in a religious lawless way, and they have no title to stay in the house, but the son remains in it.

J.J. In the end of Matthew 11, do we get an example of the Son setting persons free in the company of the Son? He had just been reprimanding various cities; then He says to some, "Come unto me ... and I will give you rest". Matthew 11:28 Is that the idea?

J.T. Well, He had addressed His Father, "I thank thee, O Father", Matthew 11:25 so that sonship is asserted there, and He spoke to His Father about hiding from certain ones and revealing to others, so that it certainly corresponds, I think. The Lord goes on to show that He is a centre of attraction, "... all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest". Matthew 11:28. Then He proceeds, in chapter 12, to go through the cornfields; that is really what is in mind in setting them free. And then His disciples pluck the corn and eat it, meaning He had given them liberty on the sabbath; He was setting them free.

Ques. Is the Son setting us free an advance on the truth setting us free?

J.T. Clearly. The truth acts on your conscience and you begin to judge things. "Ye shall know the truth", the Lord says -- a very important side to the matter -- "and the truth shall set you free". But it is the business of those who know it to make it known as much as possible, and, as it is made known, people liberate themselves by the truth itself; it is the action of the truth. The next statement is as to sonship in Christ, which is more an appeal to the heart, I think -- a very attractive thought.

Ques. When John writes his second letter, to the elect lady, he speaks of the truth first and then he refers to the Lord as the Son of the Father. I wondered whether that would combine the two ideas; it is an expression you do not get anywhere else, "the Son of the Father, in truth and love". 2 Peter 2:15. I thought perhaps the lady had been set free by the truth and now by the Son. Would you say that?

J.T. Well, that is good. The truth has a wide circulation now in religious circles, and it is a great matter to keep that before us in our prayers, for the truth has power in itself. That is really a good reason why it should get as wide a circulation as possible; it has power in itself. But then, it deals with the conscience and with the intelligence; then there is the heart, the Person of Christ is for the heart, and it is the Son who gives liberty. The truth sets us free too, so that there is a double service contemplated, what the truth effects and what the Son effects. I think the truth may have a circulation as wide as the profession, but sonship must be known where the Lord's rights are owned. "Whose house are we" Hebrews 3:6 must involve continuance in the truth. It is there, I think, the sonship of Christ is apprehended.

Ques. Is it brought out in the man in John 9 where he seems to get free by the truth, and then gets an impression of the Son, at the end of the chapter?

J.T. Exactly. The latter is in view of chapter 10, as has often been remarked, which implies the house, because it is the collective side; not that the house is mentioned, but it is one flock and one Shepherd, analogous to the service of Christ in the house. The truth may go very far afield; it has authority in itself.

H.H. In the beginning of the Acts, we have the house in a very distinctive way. When the Spirit came things were located in a very definite way, but it is not quite the same now.

J.T. The house was there evidently in the saints and truth too, for Peter begins with his words, "Hearken to my words", Acts 2and then, at the end of the chapter we have the apostles' doctrine.

H.H. I think what you say helps considerably; it was in the saints. We are apt to look for something in the way of a building, so that that would test us

at the present time as to how far we have really got things.

J.T. I think so, especially as to whether sonship is known, Christ apprehended as Son in all the attractiveness of it, which young saints need to get hold of. Now in Acts 2, first we have the teaching and fellowship of the apostles -- the converts persevered in that, and in the breaking of bread and prayers -- and then it goes on to tell us that "all that believed were together, and had all things common, and sold their possessions and substance, and distributed them to all, according as anyone might have need. And every day, being constantly in the temple with one accord, and breaking bread in the house, they received their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God, and having favour with all the people". Acts 2:44 - 46. It seems to me that is the thought; the merriment is there; it was a very happy state of things in which anyone in whom God was working would gladly join. Then it says, "The Lord added" to that; but it awaited the truth of sonship, I believe, to complete the thought of the house, the Lord being apprehended in that beautiful relationship with God -- indeed ourselves in it, too.

P.H. Do you link this up at all with the thought of Solomon, as building the house, and the words which he uses, his prayer and his words at the dedication of the house, Solomon being suggestive supremely of sonship? I am thinking of the scripture in 2 Chronicles where the house is built, the work was finished which Solomon made for the house of Jehovah, and where he says that he had built an house of habitation for God, a settled place for Him to abide in for ever. Then it says the king turned his face and blessed the whole congregation of Israel. I wondered whether you would think that Solomon as the son making a house for Jehovah to dwell in

and suggesting the thought of blessing in connection with it would fit in with your suggestion as to John.

J.T. Very fully. And in Kings we have even more attractiveness in the description of the house: the folding doors could be thrown open, so that, according to conditions, the divine Presence is happily entered into. Besides that, there are side chambers in the house, places of intimacy, and the whole position in the dedication of the house involves the feast of tabernacles, that is a feast involving holy nearness among the brethren, dwelling in booths. Not that Solomon carried it to the full length, because Nehemiah and Ezra went further than he did; they had a better time really in the remnant period than Solomon had, in that sense; they had the actual booths, so it is said of Nehemiah's feast of tabernacles that "since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so". Nehemiah 8:17. A comforting thought for us now, for I believe it involves sonship and our relations with one another in that way as brethren, so that, instead of being at a distance from one another we enjoy nearness, and the Lord as seen in John 8 is attractive. He sets free; He is in the house for ever in that state of things. Solomon prevailed everywhere and presided over everything that was done; so Christ is everything in the house, He is over it, He built it; here He is in it, so that He is in it and over it, and He is very active for young people. Of course, those of us who have already proved it, we know; but abstention from the meetings and lethargy in them but indicate how little this is understood. The psalms show how they went to the house of God, a joyous company; they had joy even in going. Elsewhere we see how God makes us glad in His house of prayer; even the prayer meetings are said to be happy.

Ques. Do you think in Luke 15 the merriment reaches as high as Ephesians 5? "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord". Ephesians 5:19.

J.T. I think the terms used -- "Let us ... be merry", and then, "They began to be merry" and then the music and the dancing, involve that it is heard.

Ques. Is the music and dancing the result of an appreciation of Christ?

J.T. Well, it is a figure of real merriment. The Spirit of God does not here bring in such an illustration in verses 23 and 24, though of course music and dancing was employed in the service of God at one time. We have to understand what real merriment in the house of God means now, even in the meeting for prayer. It seems as if Luke 15, which of course is a parable right through, would come in.

Rem. I thought, as the Father is in it, it would be pretty high.

J.T. It is such as is heard outside, and ought to be attractive to anybody. Ephesians is, no doubt, on a higher level, but it is involved in it.

N.K.M. Eating seems to be connected with merriment, "Let us eat, and be merry", and that passage in Acts 2 you quoted from says, they received their food with gladness and singleness of heart. Will you say a word about that?

J.T. Well, it is a good feature of the position. We have been speaking about Exodus 24 lately, how the saints, as elevated, ate and drank before God: they did so as regarded as nobles, It involves enjoyment too; it is a figure, I think, of enjoyment. We were saying it is over against the idolatrous conduct in Exodus 32 where they ate and drank and rose up to play without Moses, without the Lord Jesus in type. That is the world, of course; that is outside, and young people are attracted by that. But Exodus 24 is the antidote, what is up there, what we are

invited to, for it was God's own thought they should go up.

Rem. If it speaks of the Father in Luke 15 we are to understand it is the house of God that is in mind.

J.T. Well, exactly. The Father's proposal does not mention the house; it seems as if we have to look for the house, if we connect it with the doctrine in the epistles, in the prodigal himself; he is the kind of person that forms it, a thoroughly recovered person made heavenly in every way.

Ques. Would the psalmist, in Psalm 84, be proving the blessedness of it when he says, "How amiable are thy tabernacles, O Lord of hosts!"? Psalm 84:1. Then he says, "Blessed are they that dwell in thy house; they will be still praising thee". Psalm 84:4.

J.T. I think the psalms are a fine field for any one who is at all desirous of entering into the house and enjoying it; we have such fine examples of enjoyment in it. I believe that is the great value of the psalms: they give experimental testimony to everything that they speak of, and above all things the house, even before they come to it; they were a joyous company.

Ques. Is music and dancing as much for testimony as it is for enjoyment in the house?

J.T. Apparently so. It is such a happy and glorious state of things that you hardly like to bring in direct testimony, but it is really so, because the elder brother discerned it was there; it was a testimony to him which he refused, so there is testimony in it; and in truth it ought to be seen in the saints that we are a joyous company, that we have something.

Rem. In the enjoyment of what is permanent and at liberty.

J.T. Exactly.

Ques. Is the end of Psalm 113 an extension of what you speak of? "He maketh the barren woman to keep house, as a joyful mother of sons. Hallelujah!" Psalm 113:9.

J.T. Very good. Some say that was one of the psalms sung at the time of the last passover; but anyhow it is the spirit of it, a joyful mother, not of children, but of sons.

W.H.E. Does the house of God take in our own houses in any connection, or does it refer to the saints only as convened at meetings?

J.T. Well, the way it is put in 1 Timothy makes it very wide. You have eldership and deaconship and other services, and then the apostle says, "That thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God's house", 1 Timothy 3:15 as if the thought of it extends in that way to our houses, but, properly speaking, it is the saints viewed as living stones as being built up. Hebrews says, "Whose house are we", Hebrews 3:6 as continuing; but Peter gives us a concrete thought, I think, of what is concretely permanent, real living stones but built up a spiritual house, leading up to the thought of the service of God. The house of God is usually in the types connected with the temple itself, that is in truth where He was, that is where God dwelt; but the environment was glorious; there were the house of the forest of Lebanon, the house of Pharaoh's daughter, and the house where the throne was; they are all somewhat vague, but they are all intended to produce an impression of it as an environment full of affection, and Solomon dominating all; the son over all. It was remarked that all those were of like work with the house of God. It would reflect what is in the house of God, but I think the house of God is the temple always.

Ques. Might we have a word as to the difference between the house of God and the assembly? Timothy says the house of God is the assembly.

J.T. We are speaking of the house of God in order to stress the side of affection and enjoyment; the assembly presenting more, I think, the side of intelligence, that in which we have things carried out; so that, when the apostle approaches the thought of the assembly convened, he says, "I speak as to intelligent persons", 1 Corinthians 10:15 and he stresses throughout the idea of intelligence in 1 Corinthians 11, 12, 13 and 14, particularly chapters 11, 12 and 14. It is the same thing the passage in Timothy speaks of, "which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth". 1 Timothy 3:15. But the house is one thing; the house is to be apprehended, I think, as more setting out the dwelling, as indeed Ephesians stresses, a habitation of God where He dwells, and we there as no longer strangers and foreigners, but of His household, not simply in the household, but of His household, coming directly under the Lord as in the house.

Ques. Do the house and the temple coalesce? What would be the distinction?

J.T. The house is one thing; the temple is another. Everything will be intelligible;. I believe the temple will make everything intelligible. This is a great complete thought and it is growing to that; it is not that yet, it is growing to it.

J.J. Is not the passage in Hebrews 3 very helpful? "He has been counted worthy of greater glory than Moses, by how much he that has built it has more honour than the house. For every house is built by some one; but he who has built all things is God". Hebrews 3:3,4. And Moses was in the house as a ministering servant, "but Christ, as Son over his house, whose house are we, if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end". Hebrews 3:6. I thought it was the house of God -- "he who has built all things is God".

J.T. It is the house of God right through.

M.W.B. Is what is prominent in Luke 15 particularly affection?

J.T. That is what I thought. The figure would show that there is music and dancing; it becomes a question really of enjoyment, and you might say nothing else but enjoyment, and hence so attractive in the gospel. That is why one thought of it so that the young people might see there is something worth while, that it is not a doleful place, and that there is real enjoyment in it.

H.H. Where it says, "no longer strangers and foreigners", does that take account of the saints as being down here, that is, the saints viewed as God's dwelling place down here?

J.T. Yes, only composed of those who are said to have been raised up together.

H.H. So, as you have said, you hardly get the full thought of it in Romans or Corinthians.

J.T. That is right, you do not get the house in Romans or Corinthians.

J.R. Have you the thought of elevation in the house? I was thinking of a verse in Isaiah, "Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer", Isaiah 56:7.

J.T. That is a very good scripture to bring in, and it fits in with Ephesians too, for the alien and the eunuch are alluded to: they will be made joyful in God's house of prayer. It is a very attractive thought, for the prayer meeting is, I believe, often looked at as a secondary matter, and anyhow not as implying any enjoyment; but God says it is more than that, it is my house of prayer and I will make you joyful in it.

P.H. Are the thoughts of joy elaborated on in Luke 15 in connection with the best robe and the ring and the fatted calf? Are they the features known inside that cause the joy?

J.T. I think so. Good clothes do make young people feel happy; how much is made of clothes! And God does not shrink from coming down to our small thoughts in these matters, and now He is presenting clothes to us of the very best quality, including the shoes and a ring; they go a long way in making up the happiness of the place. Think of everybody being like that, for that is the idea. We are not in the house according to human etiquette and principles: nothing is more like the fly in the ointment of the apothecary than worldly thoughts brought in in that connection.

Ques. Is your thought that the Lord would have us perfectly free to enter into His joy? I was thinking of Zephaniah. "The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing". Zephaniah 3:17. Is that the atmosphere that is entered into in the house of God?

J.T. Quite so, it is God's joy in us, I think that enters into Luke 15; it ought to appeal to us, the lavishness expended on us, both in regard to our clothes, our shoes, and then in what is on the table to be included in our enjoyment, in the figure, culminating in, a testimony outside that anyone can hear or discern. In other words, any young person should see that we have something good, we have happy conditions, our meetings are really enjoyable, they are not doleful.

J.J. You have said elsewhere that what we receive in the way of testimony has to be consolidated in our minds and that is largely done through singing. I would like to ask you how you would explain that?

J.T. I think there is something in that. Singing is to characterise a redeemed people and it is stressed in both Colossians and Ephesians, even Corinthians speaks about it. I believe that singing in a spiritual

sense is penetrative peculiarly; music is penetrative, both as applying to God and ourselves.

J.J. Is that what you meant by being consolidated?

J.T. Well, things do become consolidated in your soul, for the singing involves real holy sentiment; the whole book of Psalms has that in mind -- holy sentiment.

A.E.L. The words that are sung would be the important thing.

J.T. Well, the music, too. Sometimes we hear, in a meeting like this, that the music is to be from the platform, but really that is a wrong principle; the music is as much a part of the service as the words. In 2 Chronicles 5 the music is the one sound that is stressed; it is part of the service. You cannot have singing without music.

M.W.B. Not to divert you, but while you are on the question of audible singing, there is a habit that is growing in some meetings of almost inaudible singing. Does that show spirituality or the lack of it?

J.T. I am sure anyone who is silent when a real spiritual song is going on is not much in the good of things; even whispering is poor.

M.W.B. I could hardly understand the feelings of the heart being full and the mouth closed or scarcely opened.

J.T. I am sure that is important, for many do not join in much. It is a spiritual matter and enters into the service of the house of God more than ordinary speaking as far as I can see, so we ought to accustom ourselves to it.

Ques. "Making melody in your heart" -- is that not before God?

J.T. "Singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord", Ephesians 5:19. That means the singing is first, the melody goes with it. The singers went

before and the players on stringed instruments followed after; the music comes after the singing.

P.H. Psalm 113 begins and ends with Hallelujah -- praise Jah! Would that support your thought of the great penetration that is open to the saints in the service of song? And the last five psalms, I believe, give great place to this thought of praising God, Jah.

J.T. The last book is really the culmination of the whole matter; it is full of that; and then we have not only that, but there is the chief musician and the chief singers, so that music and singing must go together.

Ques. In Nehemiah, when the singers sang loud, which suggests that the singing was in line with the music, the people rejoiced so that the joy of Jerusalem was heard afar off.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. What is the difference between singing with the spirit and with the understanding?

J.T. Singing with the spirit alludes to what wealth you have; it is that in which you are near to God; God has given us our spirits; I mean it is a peculiar matter, the spirit of a man; it is not from his parents, it is peculiarly from God. The spirit returns to God who gave it. It is that in which we are near to God; it is really the greatest part in man, spirit first, then soul, and then body. So that I think it would allude to the wealth one has, really what one has in his song, and the understanding would mean he knows the right time to use it, or it is governed by proper music.

Ques. There can be real music in a good 'Amen', can there not?

J.T. Well, the 'Amens' are always part of the singing in the psalms; you will notice you get it at the end of each book; it says let all the people say it.

H.H. We would like to hear more of them.

J.T. Quite so.

M.W.B. You referred a little while ago to the paucity of hymns in the actual taking part in assembly service. Would you say a little more as to that? It is sometimes asserted that there are too many hymns, rather deprecating the idea of hymn singing.

J.T. What we have been saying ought to help. I suppose singing with the spirit would imply the spiritual wealth one has; the understanding would imply how I use it, to use it at the right time and to use the right kind of tune. I know very little about music myself, but I can see that intelligence would include the right time for the hymn and right music. What I had in mind in referring to the paucity of hymns was that I observe, in moving about, that there is one hymn, then the breaking of bread and all that attaches to it, then another hymn, maybe to the Father, immediately after the box is passed, and there are no hymns about the Lord's relations with His bride, with the assembly, few or no hymns as regards the other offices of Christ that are all operative and in which He is functioning in the assembly. That is what I mean. The Lord has furnished us with these hymns in some measure and I believe they should be used.

M.W.B. I am thankful you have raised the exercise. It would make room for the development of the service of God on those lines which would prepare the soul for further advance.

J.T. Quite so, the Lord is ready to move us on, but He would have us move on in wealth.

Ques. Would the dancing correspond more with spiritual emotions, or, being filled, you bubble up, as it were?

J.T. The figure would mean, I think, that your whole being is brought into the thing, you are brought into it in your whole moral being. We are

told that David danced with all his might, but he was clothed in a linen ephod, meaning he was sober and balanced in it.

Ques. Does it involve the appreciation of the precious glories of Christ one after the other? In the books of psalms these various glories come out one after the other.

J.T. Very good. There is much of that omitted by us; the Lord is amongst us and His varied glories ought to be before us. The contemplation of them involves enrichment.

Ques. Does the fatted calf and the killing of it enter into that?

J.T. Quite. It is not easy to bring that into assembly service, but there is of course the thought of feeding in the Lord's supper.

Ques. Would the breaking of the bread be a suitable moment to speak to the Lord of the assembly? Where would the love of Christ for the assembly come in in the morning meeting?

J.T. It comes in in the bread, only it is the thought of His devotedness, "This is my body which is for you" 1 Corinthians 11:24 -- it comes in there, but it may come in more fully, as it is said, we are to be to Another, "who has been raised up from among the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God", Romans 7:4. Some of us lately were speaking of the elements that enter into the service of God, even before we have the sanctuary mentioned formally; it is mentioned as the abode of His holiness, in Exodus 15, and it is properly introduced in chapter 25, but before that we have suggestions of sonship: the service is to be at a certain mountain and Jethro brings his daughter Zipporah and his two sons to Moses before we come to Sinai, before we come to the place where the service is to begin. So it seems to me these elements ought to be with us in regard to assembly service, it is a question now of the elements that make up the

service, that they are equal to assembly service, then the order of it will come into place. If we let in the great thoughts that God has furnished for our enrichment, I think all else will come clearly before us.

Ques. Would it be in keeping to say a word in regard to Mark 14, "When they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives"? Mark 14:26.

J.T. That is clearly after the Supper is partaken of; there is collective elevation, what we do ourselves; the spiritual movement is of ourselves and there is power there.

Ques. Is that hymn to God?

J.T. All would be to God there, even the Lord's thanksgiving. You cannot make it all fit. We cannot just say whether the Lord spoke to Jehovah, I suppose He spoke to the Father; but our instruction first lies in what we are taught in the epistles in regard to this. So it is the Lord's supper, and we speak to Him rightly; it is to the Lord.

Ques. Why does it say 'household' in the end of this passage in Ephesians 2?

J.T. I think because it brings God very near to us, not simply that we are in the house, but we ourselves are the household.

Rem. It is like a family.

J.T. Exactly.

M.W.B. Is it more intimate really than the living stone? That is a very concrete idea and living is connected with it.

J.T. I think it is. Peter, of course, is speaking by contrast, for he is speaking to Jewish saints who would understand the idea of the stone in the temple, and he is making them living ones. And then, being built up a spiritual house, all that is contrast, over against what they were accustomed to at Jerusalem; then the holy priesthood, bringing in the side of intelligence, the service of God. "To offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ".

But Ephesians is the most exalted thought, I believe, we have had, because it is the saints viewed as already belonging to heaven, seated there, seen now here below as forming the habitation of God and that we are His household.

SAMUEL'S JUDGESHIP

1 Samuel 7:3 - 17

J.T. The proposal in reading this passage is to call attention to Samuel, the last of the judges, as setting out more fully than any of them the thought of judgeship amongst the people of God. It is a suggestion of how the end of a thing is better than the beginning, and is an encouragement to us, as coming at the end, to aim at the fulness of the divine thought in the dispensation. Much is made of Samuel's early life in this book, of his parentage, particularly his mother, and how Jehovah saw to it that he acquired moral weight among the people; He did not allow his words to fall to the ground; God took care of that. He was known as a prophet from Dan to Beer-sheba and what he said came to pass. That is, what is stressed in Samuel is the reality of his personality according to God and of his gift and mission, so that there can be no question about him, no reasonable question raised up against him. If the people are not satisfied, if they wish for another, they have to resort to subterfuge, they can hardly complain of himself. So that he stands out, it seems, as a model for us in the last days as equalling, or more than equalling, the first judge, who, I suppose, is Othniel. I think all would remind us that there should be no haziness or doubtfulness as to things or persons, that each of us should be known, clear, transparent, that, whatever our service, we are in it rightly and suitably and efficiently -- it is not a time for anything else. The ark here was not cared for properly; it had been captured and now was not in the proper surroundings, a solemn matter for anyone who, like Samuel, regards Jehovah. So that, these facts being stated, the position of the ark

comes in and Samuel begins his ministry formally. He had ministered already, but evidently now it is in relation to the general state of the people and the position of the ark, and this passage is to give us a life picture of him, not from his infancy for that has been already given but as the judge -- and how effective he was! That is, it was the kind of ministry needed for the moment, whatever preceded it, and the Spirit of God gives a full portrait of it right down to the end of his life, and how effective it was.

A.J.G. Have you in mind that this is a ministry dealing with the moral condition of the people as preparing the ground for what was subsequently brought in under David and Solomon?

J.T. Exactly, there is nothing clearer than that. So he spoke to all the house of Israel saying, "If ye do return unto the Lord with all your hearts, then put away the strange gods and Ashtaroth from among you, and prepare your hearts unto the Lord, and serve him only" (that word 'only' is to be noted) "and he will deliver you out of the hand of the Philistines". "Serve him only", that is, you might say, the first great result of the ministry needed for the moment. It is this double-mindedness that we have to judge in ourselves. He stresses "Jehovah only".

A.J.G. Is the epistle to the Romans, in the teaching of it, made effective so that we are secured as bondmen to God?

J.T. Quite so, no other master.

C.H.P. And would Corinthians come in on the collective side in regard to idols and going on in relation to what is positive as to fellowship?

J.T. Quite so, that is what is stressed in that letter. The Lord is jealous: it says, "Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy?" 1 Corinthians 10:22. It is not that they were giving Him over altogether, but they were taking on something additional.

Ques, When it says, "All the house of Israel lamented after the Lord", does it indicate some idea of returning to God?

J.T. Yes, it would show the Lord was moving, and Samuel's ministry comes in to take advantage of that. "The time was long", it says; the allusion is to the ark and feelings about the ark.

P.L. Is it such a strait that moves God to raise up distinctive ministry like Samuel's? His state would make room for it subjectively, the ark standing for that. Would that be a basic state for recovering ministry?

J.T. The sort of soil, you would say, for ministry is symbolised by agriculture, "The earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it". Hebrews 6:7. This kind of soil will take in ministry such as Samuel's and bear fruit, and that really was in mind here, so that they act against idolatry and come back to Jehovah to serve Him only; Then there is the idea of gathering, for gathering an unjudged people is useless, it is those who judge themselves -- "Gather all Israel" -- he has nothing less than all in mind -- "to Mizpeh, and I will pray for you unto the Lord. And they gathered together to Mizpeh, and drew water, and poured it out before the Lord". There is the full acknowledgment of the state: they "fasted on that day, and said there, We have sinned against the Lord", that is, where they are gathered. And then we are told that "Samuel judged the children of Israel in Mizpeh". This now is the full course where he would have them. It is a peculiar statement, "He judged them there", because, although we may make a general admission and take up a generally right position, there are details that have to be settled. Do you not think so?

A.J.G. Yes. I was wondering whether the being there means that details as they arose would be dealt with by the light that that position stands for.

J.T. That is, I think, what is meant, judging in detail. They have already taken up a right place provisionally and collectively, but that is not the whole matter, the ministry must proceed and for dealing with details, judgment like this is needed.

P.L. John fell at His feet as one dead; is that the general position, at the Lord's feet, but then travelling round the churches with Him, would that be the details coming up?

J.T. Very good.

A.J.G. What is the particular significance of Mizpeh in this connection?

J.T. It would be the sense of watching, the idea of remembering entering into it. Ministry takes up its own attitude under God; it takes up its own position and moves from its own point of view. You may marvel at the difference of one ministry from another, but it has its own way and the result proves its efficiency, that it is of God. That is, we have to recognise the position taken up in any ministry.

Ques. Will you say a little as to the character of the judgment, does it refer to matters belonging to Jehovah?

J.T. Whatever needed judgment. Moses in Exodus 18 may be taken to represent the idea; he sat all day and listened to people coming to him with this and that. Jethro, his father-in-law, gave him advice about it, which he took: but it is onerous work, a detailed matter, and the saints need it. It is not enough that we take up a generally right position. They poured out water before Jehovah and turned from idols outwardly, but there are a lot of secret things. If we are in the presence of God, where the ministry will have us, things may come out that are not of God and they have to be settled. We have to ask, What is the bearing of this thing that has happened? We are constantly faced with matters

and it is a great thing to have them settled in a moral way, and I think that is what is in mind in judgeship. The principle is that whenever God raised up a judge God was with the judge. It is wisdom to recognise that each judge has his own distinctiveness and his own circuits, and Samuel, it seems to me, is the outstanding one who represents the idea more than any; and this position at Mizpeh would mean that brethren are faced now with the presence of God in a suitable person. He may rise to be a type of Christ even, but he judged Israel there in his own selected place.

H.L. Does something lie behind that in Samuel himself? His ministry was very effective almost immediately. Had he faced things in his own soul?

J.T. I doubt if anyone could be a judge save as he judges things in himself.

A.J.G. And is the particular exercise of judgeship necessary to clear the way for the ministry of the prophets?

J.T. That is how it stands. "Samuel judged the children of Israel in Mizpeh". That is all a question of the rights of God, I think, in each of us individually. We are challenged in such a ministry as to detail. Each one has his own difficulties in his soul and Samuel is there and he judges; it is not the infliction of penalties, but in the sense in which God is going to judge the world presently by this Man whom He has ordained, entering into detail because everything must be settled. Then the enemy comes up -- that is the next thing -- so we do well to deal with secret moral issues.

Ques. What is the point of the Philistines hearing of this matter? They heard Israel was gathered together.

J.T. The point is God is moving. If a christian goes to the theatres or cinemas or stays at home and plays cards, the enemy will not trouble him; but

when we gather under these circumstances the enemy does not like that, for God is there; and Samuel knows what to do in that matter too. There is no difficulty, no unsolvable matter at all; the enemy is coming up in force and Samuel knows what to do. But the people are to go through all this; it says, "They were afraid of the Philistines. And the children of Israel said to Samuel, Cease not to cry unto the Lord our God for us"; that is, he had been doing it; they know the kind of man he is.

P.L. Would it be that a warrior leading in a universal conflict has acquired the confidence of the saints in patience connected with moral issues in a locality?

J.T. Illustrate what you mean.

P.L. Well, the one who was promoted in the battle in the valley Elah is a David who went into details in moral questions: in shepherd care the lion and the bear were met in what you might call a more local setting. Samuel, before giving a lead in general battle, qualified by way of moral issues, do you think? And he had the mind of God in them.

J.T. The people understand their leader, they understand what his characteristic is, he is a praying man, his prayers are perhaps more valuable than anything.

Ques. Is it the word of God and intercession going together?

J.T. Exactly, he spoke the word of God to them; now he is interceding for them. They know he can do it; evidently he had acquired that reputation.

Ques. Does he support them as priest in praying for them, and as a prophet in connection with their recovery?

J.T. Yes, his real ministry is prophecy, but he is a priest too, but under the general title of a judge.

He is a man of great parts, great endowment from God, qualifications for the office; and it is a great matter if in any locality or generally there are those who can serve, that the brethren should know just what they can do. To every man his work, and, if the saints are at all alert, they will see what a man can do and ask him to help on those lines. The great general principle in service is Christ, Christ here available for anyone, "I am among you as he that serveth". Luke 22:27. Whatever I can I will do, that is the principle for a servant, and Samuel has a wide range of ability here and evidently the people understood.

Rem. We would be particularly thankful for such elements as that to be found among us in view of the fact that any desire or exercise to move collectively in matters draws the attention of the enemy. "When the Philistines heard that the children of Israel were gathered together to Mizpeh, the lords of the Philistines went up against Israel". They did not regard as a small matter the saints moving together on collective lines.

J.T. This movement of God we have part in now is apparently outwardly small, but the lords of the Philistines heard of it a hundred years ago and have been active ever since. The great comfort about Samuel is that his ministry was effective all the days of his life, it did not break down. It is a very effective ministry, rising up, you might say, to the ministry of Christ, and what is to be noticed is, I think, that the saints understand; they understand what is available to them in the ministry. They do not ask him to gird on his sword; David would do that, but Samuel's service is prayer, so they knew what he could do.

Ques. What does the Philistine represent to us?

J.T. Well, the big man, the religious man in the land, in the same position as ourselves outwardly, but he is secretly against us. It is that kind of thing.

Rem. It is a great thing to recognise the man whom God is with.

J.T. Quite so, and the saints here understood what Samuel could do; they did not ask him to gird on his sword. They asked him to do what they knew he could do: they asked him to pray for them, which he did. That was the thing he did when they rejected him. He said, "God forbid that I should sin against the Lord in ceasing to pray for you". 1 Samuel 12:23.

Rem. That suggests a man of prayer.

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. Do you mean the spirit of judgeship would know what was required at any given juncture? He could take the sword when required and slay Agag.

J.T. That is good. I believe that with any ministry that God raises up, He gives discernment as to what is needed, the battleground on which it can be carried on. Mizpeh is a selected spot, the saints are there, and he is judging there. Now the saints understand what is in this man, and they use it -- why not? After all, "Ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake", 2 Corinthians 4:5 whether it was Paul or Apollos or Cephas, all was for the service of the saints. Why not use them? Of course you have to remember they are men, but still, that is the position -- use them aright.

Ques. Do you think, "prepared unto every good work" 2 Timothy 2:21 would be the way all-round efficiency is arrived at?

J.T. Exactly. Let no one say, I am a specialist; there is nothing of that kind in Scripture. Not that a man may not be that in effect, but he does not take that ground; he is an all-round man. The Lord said, "I am among you as he that serveth". Luke 22:27. He was known among the brethren as One who served. It is wonderful to think what the Lord would do.

If He will wash the disciples' feet what will He not do? Think of the Lord Jesus ready to do that!

Ques. How would the opposition of the Philistines show itself today?

J.T. One thing about them is they are big men, another is they pride themselves: if they have ancestry, they will tell you about it; if they have money, they will tell you about it. Anything that gives man a place, they will make a show of it; they do not hide it -- that is another thing. You will find that in yourself; I find it in myself, how ready I am to bring out any little thing that adds to me as a man here.

Ques. Would the antidote to that be drawing the water, as the people did here, speaking of the Spirit and the ministry?

J.T. Alluding to verse 6? Of course it is a type of themselves, they poured it out before Jehovah. I suppose it would mean that, as far as we are concerned, the water would be lost entirely in oblivion. It says in 2 Samuel 14, it cannot be gathered up again; it does not say that here. I think there is a thought of resurrection in it, that it can be gathered up again, what seems to disappear in the earth can be gathered up again. God will see to that. I think there is some little light in what they do here. A man goes down and is buried; as the infidels would say, he just returns to dust. Scripture says that too. What about his identity? I think there is a reference here to the fact that it can be gathered up, though there is not much said about it.

P.L. Would it be gathered up in the savour of the burnt offering, the sucking lamb?

J.T. That brings out what we are saying: it is the whole idea, and that runs through. The passover is the great sacrificial thought and what is stressed in it is, "A bone of him shall not be broken". John 19:36. Taken up in John's gospel, we see that the whole thought

goes through; God will give it a body, God will cover it. So it is parallel with Joseph's bones mentioned in the next chapter in Exodus, the identity of the person going right through; in Christ all is gathered up, believers are all in Christ, "In Christ shall all be made alive". 1 Corinthians 15:22.

Ques. It says they poured it out before Jehovah, would that show they had faith in Jehovah?

J.T. I think there is that element there, though not stressed. After all, what is conversion or anything, aside from being gathered up, taken up in Christ?

Ques. Do you think we should be likely to appreciate the sucking lamb as a whole burnt offering if we had not come to the realisation of our powerlessness as suggested in the water poured out? Is not one, so to speak, a corollary of the other?

J.T. It seems so. It seems that the light comes in in the work of God in the people discerning what is in Samuel, that he would pray for them; that would bring in the power of God. Then the whole idea in such an attractive way, a sucking lamb, what is dependent, so beautifully typical of Christ who was cast on God from the very outset of His being here below; the whole thought carried through, all delightful from the outset and now in heaven, all is gathered up in Him.

P.L. So that, as you say, self-judgment would be valueless if it were not gathered up. In the great penitential psalm, the 51st, David pours out his soul and finishes up with the whole burnt-offering.

J.T. Yes, and Zion comes in at the end too.

Rem. So that Samuel's judging would be for the preservation of what is of God as much as the discerning of what is not.

J.T. Quite so, the judging would mean that God is to have us apart from all that naughtiness of will.

P. L. So that the keeping of the feast of unleavened bread of sincerity and truth in Corinthians is to enable us to merge in the vessel which is one entity and which is going through, the assembly.

J.T. "Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump" -- there is the one idea -- "according as ye are unleavened". 1 Corinthians 5:7. There is the abstract idea -- a remarkable thing that in the mind of God we are unleavened. But the judging would mean that all that is contrary to what we are abstractly before God is dealt with; it is all extraneous, and if it appear in our ways, it is a service to us if one calls attention to it, and let us have done with it.

Ques. Is there not a suggestion in the first thought of being saved out of the hands of the Philistines? Samuel prayed for that, but later the people asked for it. Was his judgeship and ministry to bring the people round to what was hindering them?

J.T. I think so. The whole position became clear to them after Jehovah thunders. "The men of Israel", it says: now they are men, they have developed into that. "The men of Israel went out of Mizpeh, and pursued the Philistines, and smote them, until they came under Beth-car". That is the idea of making a finished matter of it. God has done wonderfully, but then He will bring us into what He is doing; that is really the essence of the whole position that God brings us into what He is doing, and anything we can do, let us do it. He could have done all this Himself, but He did not, the men of Israel must be brought into it.

Ques. Is Samuel's movement an answer to the movement of the people? The people poured out the water and Samuel offered the burnt-offering.

J.T. I think that is right; it is the positive side; all is gathered up in Christ, one whole thought, and God, taking that on, thunders on what is contrary; He is against what is contrary, the big man, but then

He leaves some of it to us. I have to gird on my armour and get my sword and finish the matter -- which they did. You find later, in Saul's case, in the great battle with the Philistines, Jonathan was used and the matter was not finished. The reason was, as Jonathan pointed out, they did not get food; Saul in his folly forbade them to take anything, and Jonathan points out that if they took the honey the matter would be finished.

Ques. Will you say a little more as to the distinction between "the children of Israel" in verse 8, and "the men of Israel" in verse 11?

J.T. I thought it is a very remarkable way of putting it -- "the men of Israel". The Lord speaks of "the men whom thou gavest me" John 17:6 and we read of David's men and the men of Hezekiah, and so on. It alludes to the progress that has been made; the men of Israel went out; they are not sent out. Manhood means you are coming into the thing.

Rem. Do you think there is a tendency, if the enemy recedes a little, to give up and not pursue? Pursuing suggests energy in following up the matter to a conclusion.

J.T. Quite so, "Faint yet pursuing" Judges 8:4, you will finish the matter; and that works out in many ways amongst us. You may say, There is nobody in this meeting who can preach or teach; we are in a poor way. But then we are all called into the matter. God is working, and if a thing has to be done I will do it, and if I take up that line God will help me, things will be done.

P.L. "I have not found thy works perfect". Revelation 3:2.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. In following things up like that should we look to secure something positive as well? The cities were restored to Israel.

J.T. That is the next thing. The next paragraph begins with verse 12, but it is well to notice what

these men did without being told. People say, It is not my business. If there is something to be done and you cannot do it, the thing is to ask God to help you to do it, and it will be done. That word 'Beth- car' has some meaning in relation to knowledge, I think, so the full idea of intelligence is brought into it.

Ques. Would you say that the fact that they went out of Mizpeh without being told is the result of Samuel's judging there, so that the brethren know what to do without specific instructions?

J.T. Exactly, they are set up as men. After the Lord's supper they sang a hymn. It does not say the Lord told them what to do, they knew what to do. If there be a heart for things the Lord loves to allow us to do things.

A.J.G. Does this exercise promote manhood?

J.T. I think that is the idea, to promote manhood in the brethren, as it is said of the early christians, "They persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles". Acts 2:42. And they went beyond Beth-car -- they smote them as far as below Beth-car.

Ques. What are we to understand by this direct action of Jehovah as preceding the men smiting?

J.T. I think it is His delight in the whole burnt-offering. The meaning is that the lamb is defenceless; it is what God would delight in, and what God delights in He defends; the people come in under that. And it goes on to say, "Samuel cried to Jehovah for Israel, and Jehovah answered him ... . And Jehovah thundered with a great thunder on that day upon the Philistines, and discomfited them; and they were routed before Israel". And then this verse 11 shows that the people are now men, they are working with God. We are all called into it, to be workers with God, and that is the idea, I think.

P.L. Have you something as to this in regard to the beginning of the Acts? The Lord's going up to

heaven in the savour of the burnt-offering, His precious death, and then the Spirit's coming down in power, and the ministry of the twelve; is that a routing before Israel? Would Stephen, and finally Paul, be amongst the men of Israel who followed up?

J.T. Yes, and the scattered saints are a very remarkable illustration; they had no commission at all, they were scattered at the time of Stephen's death, but they went and preached; they forced God an entrance into the enemy's territory as far as Antioch. But it says, "Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord": Acts 9:1 that is a terrible state of things, and yet they are out at Antioch preaching the gospel, and Philip was in the wilderness and comes as far as Caesarea, a great result in those who had no commission at all, but they are acting in spite of persecution. Then the Lord takes the matter up and straightens the whole line, He brings down Saul of Tarsus; then, we are told, the assemblies in all these positions had peace; there was a forward movement.

J.R. Does the enemy appear to move in a wrong moment here as to his advantage? "As Samuel was offering up the burnt-offering, the Philistines drew near to battle against Israel".

J.T. Quite so. Saul is yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter, but the Lord waited till he got near Damascus where the work was going on, and brought him down; he is brought back to Jerusalem and introduced to the apostles.

A.J.G. All this follows on the exercise arrived at previously to serve Jehovah only; it is God now operating as a result of what is arrived at by His people.

J.T. I am sure that is the leading thought, to serve Jehovah only. "A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways" James 1:8; you really never reach christianity spiritually if you are double-minded.

H.L. And they did not take the credit to themselves. "Hitherto hath the Lord helped us". Is that a good conclusion?

J.T. Quite so, it is a landmark really. "Samuel took a stone, and set it between Mizpeh and Shen, and called the name of it Eben-ezer, saying, Hitherto hath the Lord helped us". And then it says, "So the Philistines were subdued, and they came no more into the coast of Israel", so that the position is very clear, there is a complete victory; the territory is secured.

A.J.G. Does this word 'hitherto' involve that Samuel had in mind they would go yet further? God had helped them to that point, but they were to move still further.

J.T. Quite so, not settling down on their lees; so real judgeship is seen there. He does not sit down as after a great victory, he is moving every year. He "judged Israel all the days of his life. And he went from year to year in circuit to Beth-el, and Gilgal, and Mizpeh, and judged Israel in all those places. And his return was to Ramah; for there was his house; and there he judged Israel; and there he built an altar unto the Lord". It is a life-size picture of Samuel.

P.L. And does "year by year" suggest that God is, so to speak, continually unfolding fresh phases of the truth to us, so that the sieve gets smaller and the standard more searching? What He allowed one year He would not the next, would He?

J.T. That is what has happened amongst us; the Lord seems to be making things clear; customs and practices which were accepted as right years back we do not accept now, because the judgment is there, I hope.

A.J.G. And would this going round in circuits to Beth-el and Gilgal and Mizpeh mean that standards

of truth have to be continually reasserted and the judgments relating to them?

J.T. Very good. Elijah and Elisha carried on this thought of going from one point to another.

A.A.G. Do these years answer to the early years of Samuel's life when year by year his mother brought him a little coat, indicating growth and the need of adjustment continually?

J.T. Yes, she would recognise that Samuel was growing.

A.A.G. I thought he was conscious of having learnt that principle in himself and he sees the need of it in the people.

J.T. I believe that is the secret of so much weakness with us that the young amongst us have not had these early experiences. We need to look back and ask ourselves, How have I got on? Do I look at things as I did last year?

P.L. Stock-taking in that way. Would the circuit be completed exercise, no loophole left?

J.T. It may be a sort of allusion to love's sphere. The Lord looked round in a circuit on those who sat around Him, as if He were pleased with them.

P.L. Yes, and the judicial service here is to encircle the saints with light and help and not to scatter them.

J.T. I suppose, as he came round to Beth-el, which is mentioned first, he would raise the whole question as to what was suitable to the house of God, as Paul does to Timothy. "That thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God's house". 1 Timothy 3:15. How are matters in that relation? Is there any joy for the young people to hold them, to attract them? If our conditions are kept right, there will be something to make the meetings attractive for young people, music and dancing, and other things too. Samuel would raise questions every time he came as to anything that might be out of the way.

P.L. Would he start at the top: "A habitation of God in the Spirit", Ephesians 2:22 as in Ephesians; and then the Colossian aspect, in Gilgal and in Mizpeh coming down to Corinthians?

J.T. Yes.

Ques. What about Ramah?

J.T. Well, that is Samuel's own abode, alluding to moral elevation, I think. The two who followed the Lord said, "Rabbi ... where abidest thou?". He said, "Come and see". John 1:38,39. I suppose Samuel would be ready for any Israelite to come and see him.

Ques. Is that suggestive of the ministry being maintained at its height?

J.T. You ought to see ministry at its height in Ramah.

P.L. Paul spoke of "my ways as they are in Christ". 1 Corinthians 4:17. When Samuel went to Bethlehem they trembled.

J.T. It is a good thing to fear if things are not right.

Ques. Are we not made to feel that the nearer we get to the light the more we must be prepared for discipline?

J.T. I think so. We have sidelights on Samuel's visits. People are invited as if they are to have a happy time; the maidens know all about it, they are not occupied with social affairs, but with spiritual affairs. They know all about the man of God in the town, what he does: he blesses the sacrifice, and then they have thirty people invited.

Rem. Samuel honoured Jehovah and then he was able to build an altar unto Jehovah.

J.T. Yes, that is another thing. But it is nice to see how he comes in and how a happy state of things is promoted; for our meetings are not much marked by spiritual happiness. But he goes to Bethlehem and things are different: they feared him.

P.L. The fact that he had to bring the heifer with him suggests the feminine side, as seen with the young women in Scripture.

J.T. Very good. That gives character to David's anointing too; so if Christ has not His place, as was the case in Jesse's house, we have good reason to fear.

Ques. Would Ramah suggest that his house was in keeping with the house of God?

J.T. I think that is the way the thing would work out. I suppose the place where he resides is abstractly the assembly; that is where you would go for right thoughts and principles; you would see them concretely there. It is better to go and see them than to be taught them. So that there was not only that, but there was worship; there he built an altar to Jehovah, he judged Israel there too; that means you can go there, and if you go to Samuel's abode, you must be judged on those principles that marked his place.

Rem. Something like Deborah -- they came to her for judgment.

J.T. Quite so. We learn as to Samuel's place, Naioth and Ramah, as mentioned later (1 Samuel 19), what powerful influence there was: even Saul is brought down by the prophetic ministry.

Rem. Does it suggest that Samuel had living conditions outside his service? While he was available in his own place to judge Israel, his actual living conditions were in relation to God and his approach there.

J.T. I think that is good. Every servant's house ought to be available to the brethren in so far as possible. He should entertain, for his house should be a testimony where what is right may be learnt.

P.L. Like Paul receiving every one, and the altar there.

J.T. Exactly, in his own hired house; he had full rights there.

Rem. You would expect the people who came to Paul at the end of the Acts would not only receive ministry from him, but they would hear him pray.

J.T. Quite.

Rem. A little like the Lord Himself retiring to the mount of Olives at night time and coming back from that standpoint to minister in the temple.

J.T. And that word in Mark 2:1 "He entered again into Capernaum after several days, and it was reported that he was at the house"; the expression "at the house" may be rendered 'at home'. There is no doubt He had a dwelling-place in Capernaum. According to Matthew, He left Nazareth and came to Capernaum; and Mark says He was at home; but there was abundant liberty for anybody. They broke through the roof to get to Him. So no servant is to be a recluse. What a man is in his house ought to be a testimony.

Rem. In that connection another scripture says He had not where to lay His head.

J.T. That is to be taken in its own setting. We know He had a place in Bethany where He was loved.

Ques. Would you distinguish between the judgment in a circuit in these localities and then the judgment in his house?

J.T. I should. I should look for something special in Samuel's house where was his home, where he has full rights.

Ques. Would the first have more reference to us in our own particular localities?

J.T. I think so.

P.L. Would not this, "in his own house" bear also on the recent measuring line the Lord is supplying in ministry in view of the service of God; the building of the altar following this judging of Israel

in Ramah? Would it not be the upward trend in view and the raising, as you were pointing out, of moral questions pre-eminently with the saints?

J.T. Surely God must be the ultimate end of everything. God is supreme with Samuel, and Samuel is on sacrificial lines; not only that, in a general way, he served God only, but he was sacrificial in it; the altar means that.

P.L. "Jesus ... lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father". John 17:1. Is that like the altar in his own house?

J.T. Yes.

Rem. He is not living in his own service; there is something greater than that.

THE NEED OF COMPLETION

1 Samuel 7:10,11; 1 Samuel 14:23 - 30; 1 Samuel 15:1 - 3,7 - 9

I venture to put these three scriptures together to speak, as I hope for profit, on the divine requirement that any given work is to be finished. These scriptures are read in order to bring out the necessity of completing any work divinely entrusted, or in fact any work that may come to one's hand, for we are enjoined, "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might", Ecclesiastes 9:10.

Now the positive word that I have is from chapter 7, which I intend to reserve for the end of my remarks and only to allude to briefly now so that you may see what is in mind, namely, that God gave a great victory to His people which might to most seem sufficient; we are told that He thundered upon the Philistines and discomfited them, a great matter in itself which seemingly ought to be regarded as a finished matter, but it says, you will observe, "And the men of Israel went out of Mizpah, and pursued the Philistines, and smote them, as far as below Beth-car". Jehovah is not said to have directed this; it is evidently the outcome of intelligence in the men of Israel that it was the divine thought that they should have part in this great matter. Not that Jehovah could not have finished the matter -- He could, readily. He could have destroyed all the Philistines. But He left the way open for such a movement as is recorded of the men of Israel: they "went out of Mizpah, and pursued the Philistines, and smote them, as far as below [or beyond] Beth-car". They went the full length. I will come back to this presently.

I want to show from the second scripture, dear brethren, how the end in a given work or divine enterprise may be hindered, may not be reached by

us, and how we may stand in the divine way of reaching His end. God always has an end in mind; whether it be in enlightening one's soul, or whether it be in the introduction of the gospel, indeed, at the beginning, the formation of converts into an assembly or whatever it may be, God always has an end in mind. He intends to reach it and will reach it. But He brings His people into what He is doing. He deigns to regard us as "fellow-workmen"! Who does not normally as a christian aspire to be a fellow-workman with God! And you find that God sets the matter on and gives general results from His own side, but allows us to go forward, and in doing so has perfect delight in looking upon us in our little way in the field of service as His (no less than that) fellow-workmen!

Now this section in the second scripture I have read records a workman with God, a man who worked with God. Jonathan, we are told, "wrought with God". He did not work with his father; in fact it says that before he entered on the great undertaking at the beginning of this chapter 14 "he did not tell his father". 1 Samuel 14:1. The verses I have read show how wise this was. The chapter brings out that the end was not really reached, great as was the beginning and the victory in a general way. The full end was not reached. And why? Because of Saul interposing: he would have part in the victory, for the natural mind is ready to take part when things are successful in the service of God. It was a question with Saul of his enemies -- not God's. It was a question with him of being avenged on his enemies! Such a person intruding into a great divine matter can only hinder. In fact any part the natural mind has in divine operations, however apparently helpful at the outset, can only hinder in the end. Let us take note of that, dear brethren, because natural energy is not only useless, but it is in the way.

So Saul interposed with a curse. There was no need for it. In due course anyone interfering or taking a hand in the work of God on natural lines will expose himself, and will be found not only useless but in the way. Saul saw the work, that the victory was assured, why should he not have part in that? But was he a worker with God? On the contrary, dear brethren, he was a worker against God in this matter. And why? Because he assumed distinction; he assumed the ability; he assumed all that his outward position afforded him. And so he assumes the right to interfere with the food of the warriors of God, to deprive them of it! He interposed a curse, too; assuming the right, the religious right, of cursing anyone who disregarded his foolish edict! And the worker with God is happily unaware of this. Happy it is for us when we are working successfully with God if we are unaware of these fathers who would interpose their religious authority, if not to stop the work directly, at least to weaken the hands of those engaged in it.

We can thus understand the spiritual meaning of Jonathan refraining from telling his father of the great project he had on hand. He did not tell his father, we are told. It is happy to be ignorant of their assumed rights over us in the service of God. Jonathan was ignorant of this stupid edict, and oh! how many there are abroad today, dear brethren, based on self-importance, based on religious importance and authority. Whereas neither exists. Happy it is for us if we are ignorant of their self-imposed interference, their importance and consequent interference. Hence, if we are to be successful as workers with God, for Jonathan "wrought with God", do not tell them. The less they know the better. Jonathan did not tell his father, but nevertheless his father came into the matter and enjoined that the warriors

who were being used of God, workers with Jonathan, should not partake of the divinely provided food! It was divinely provided food. Think of depriving people of what has been divinely provided! It was the fruit of the land. The land that was to flow with milk and honey was flowing still with milk and honey: with honey certainly, for you will have observed in the chapter as I read it, in verses 25, 26, "And all they of the land came to a wood; and there was honey on the ground. And the people had come into the wood, and behold, the honey flowed; but no man put his hand to his mouth, for the people feared the oath". Think of Saul, based on his self-importance, on his legality, too, think of that coming in between the warriors of God and the food that God provided, -- and provided richly!

Well now, dear brethren, you see what I mean. Jonathan says of his father here, "My father has troubled the land". There are many such. It is the land in a spiritual sense. He says, in effect, he has really robbed us of what was within our grasp, namely, the complete overthrow of the Philistines at this time.

You can see then, dear brethren, that if we are to be workers with God at this hour we must disregard all such fathers. If we are ignorant of their intervention it is happy, but if we come to know it we are not to fail to make it clear that it is an interference. In fact the whole hierarchical system (if you will allow me to say it here) is an interference with the work of God, to say nothing more than that. It is a positive interference. Time was when we could not meet like this. Why? Because of that interference!

Well then, dear brethren, as workers together with God, let us go on in happy ignorance of this interference. Not that we do not suffer, but go on with God, partaking of the honey, namely, the fruit of the land, for that is what it is. The land is constantly

referred to as flowing with milk and honey. And it is yet -- in a spiritual way. According to what we get here, there was honey upon the ground, and in verse 26 it says, "Behold, the honey flowed". There it was, flowing of itself. No culture needed; no bee-hives required. The land flowed with it. And this stupid curse of Saul's must deprive the workers with God of this divinely-given food, and hence deprive them of the complete victory that was within their reach!

Why I am saying all this is that we should be warned and be intelligent as to the situation today and know how to avail ourselves of the honey. There was not much needed. There was plenty of it, but even a little taken on the end of a staff is enough to enlighten the warrior's eyes, so that he may pursue the enemy, or, in other words, complete the work. It is a great reproach under all circumstances to be engaged in any work of God that is left unfinished. "I have not found thy works complete", says the Lord Jesus to Sardis, "before my God". They may seem to be complete before others, but God is the Judge of all. The final test must be what He thinks. And hence the Lord speaks on God's behalf to Sardis and says, "I have not found thy works complete before my God". Revelation 3:2.

Now I go on to chapter 15 (much more might be said, of course, as to Jonathan's pronouncement on his father) to show how this incompletion of work divinely assigned is more fully seen in Saul's case. It is a question of self-judgment, really, in the antitype, a question of dealing with Amalekitish elements amongst the people of God. And here it may be that most of us are involved, whether it be each in his own self or in his family or in his business or in his service to the Lord. It is a question whether any of us would come out clear in the matter were we put to the test, as the Lord Jesus says, "before my God". Revelation 3:2.

For that is how the matter is to come out. "Ye have come to ... God, judge of all", Hebrews 12:23. We come to Him. Not to things and persons, but to God, the Judge of all, and everything must come under review before Him; if not now, in the future. Why not now? Why let things remain unsettled until that day when we shall appear before God? We must all appear, we are told, before the judgment-seat of God. But how happy it is to have everything settled up before that time! Not to have a long bill at the adjudication from God. "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged", 1 Corinthians 11:31. Otherwise we shall be judged with the world. Not that the believer is not saved; the true believer is, but "so as by fire". 1 Corinthians 3:15. What a bill any such person has to face, putting things off day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, until his life of responsibility is over! The volume is not lessened in the divine account; all is kept with the greatest accuracy in the books of God. The first book of this kind is said to be God's book. Moses refers to God's book; there can be no discrepancy there. So that, dear brethren, the continual putting off of things -- it is sorry work!

So it is a question now in 1 Samuel 15 of dealing with Amalekitish elements. Here they are specified: "Both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass". All living creatures, referring doubtless to active things, even an infant or a suckling, active Amalekitish elements. Let us see to it, dear brethren. It may be just the infant, the suckling -- something active. It may be the man, full, it may be assumed, of the intellectualism, the sophistication of this world. The woman, too, in all her secretiveness. And, as it is said, the "ox and sheep, camel and ass". Let us see to it whether there are any of these features with us; they are active things, living in that sense.

How hard-hearted it would seem to destroy a suckling, an infant! But this is the divine requirement, dear brethren. And Saul undertakes the commission. In fact, the end of the previous chapter gives us a full account of Saul from the human point of view, a very successful kind of monarch. Look at the list of things at the end of chapter 14, a very successful ruler. There are those who would excuse all else in the light of such military skill and ability, such rule. But the eye of God saw differently. And so it is with many of us; successful apparently, it may be, under the eye of our brethren, but the divine eye sees differently. There is something underneath all that, which the divine eye discerns and will bring to light, and that is chapter 15.

The Spirit depicts in remarkable words the exploits of this monarch: let anyone read those verses at the end of chapter 14 and he will see. He gives Saul full credit, but, as the Lord said to the young man, there was one thing lacking. Saul lacked many things, but this one thing would be enough before the bar of God. Samuel says, "The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel". What an honour to be anointed at all by God, to have part in His service amongst His people. What an honour! But, oh, beloved brethren, how all this may be taken on and in a measure there may be success and yet something never judged, and the work of God, therefore, with which one has been entrusted not fulfilled! So that God has to say to us, "I have not found thy works complete". Revelation 3:2.

Samuel says, "Now therefore hearken unto the voice of the words of the Lord". That is the first verse. This is a new chapter. After we have Saul's apparently successful reign depicted, this is another view of the man. He accepts the commission, and apparently he is very successful, too, in the undertaking. He gathers a large army, and he warns the

Kenites (verse 6), crediting them with showing kindness to the children of Israel; and then we are told in verse 7, "Saul smote Amalek from Havilah as thou comest to Shur, which is opposite to Egypt". Well, you say, that is a great matter. A man may be used, you know, in the service of God and get converts, give excellent addresses and minister in many ways apparently with great success, but there is something underneath undiscerned by him (or if discerned, it is neglected) which is allowed to stay in its activities. And presently God brings up something that exposes the whole man. Not that Saul had not been exposed before to some extent, but not fully.

And so, after giving Saul full credit for what he had done, "Saul smote Amalek from Havilah as thou comest to Shur, which is opposite to Egypt", the Spirit of God goes on to say, in verses 8, 9, "And he took Agag the king of Amalek alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. And Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep and oxen, and beasts of the second bearing, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not devote them to destruction; but everything that was mean and weak, that they destroyed utterly". So you see, dear brethren, the matter is exposed, not perhaps to the unspiritual eye, but to the spiritual eye. Saul is exposed, and he loses the kingdom. His works were not found complete before his God. He has his explanation, his apology, to offer, but the fact remains that he is rebellious. That is at the bottom of it -- his will is at work. If Amalek is spared, it is the natural mind, the natural will, that does it. The best of things, what is humanly good, is retained, and what is mean and weak is destroyed. There is no credit in that, beloved. It is the Amalekite in the best of him, in all that he is, that is to be destroyed. You say, That is the flesh in a peculiar way. Yes, it is, but it is the

flesh. So that if we are at all honest with ourselves, we cannot but see that this has to be destroyed. As the apostle says, "I myself with the mind serve God's law; but with the flesh sin's law", Romans 7:25. It can do nothing else. Why not destroy it then? It is simply Amalek. It can do nothing else but sin, that is to say act against God. For that is what sin is; it is lawlessness.

You can see, dear brethren, that I have somewhat made clear my thought. The idea here in Saul's case of not completing what is divinely given to us as work, and on the other hand how delightful it is to see a brother or a sister take up what is left to be done. The apostle spoke to Titus of leaving him to look after what was unordered. It is striking, indeed, in the epistles how much of that there is. The Corinthians were left with much unordered: what will they do? Will they take the matter on? No, they did not take the matter on. The Lord will test us by leaving something, even if He does it nearly all. He leaves something. What will you do? You may say, It is not my business. But it is your business; it is God's business. The Lord Jesus at the age of twelve said, "Wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?" Luke 2:49. It is God's business. Let no one say, It is not my affair. It is your affair. It is God affair, and if your hand finds it to do, it is your affair.

The men of Israel in chapter 7 had no commission as far as we see, but they "went out ... and pursued the Philistines, and smote them, as far as below Beth-car". You say, This was God's matter; why did He not thunder on the enemies, as we get in verse 10, and finish the matter? But then the thunder has no heart and affections; you have. He wants to test you as to whether you are obedient in every thing. Not simply in a general way, but in everything. It is one thing, you see, that exposes you. These men of Israel are to be noted. We are to

understand the beautiful expression in them here. We have been speaking of what came out in Saul, that legal man, that murderous man, too, as the facts show, whom God would not let off although he nearly destroyed the Amalekites. He did not do it altogether, and God would not let him off. "Obedience is better than sacrifice", 1 Samuel 15:22. Samuel says to him. Do not talk to Me about sacrifice, God says, as it were, if that one thing is not done. It is a test to your will.

So under Samuel, in chapter 7 we see men developing. It is a beautiful type of what flows from the influence of Christ. We get such an expression as "The men whom thou gavest me", John 17:6. Earlier He spoke of them to His Father as "babes", and now He says, "The men whom thou gavest me". They became men under the influence of Christ and these men of Israel became men under the influence of Samuel. We are told that "Samuel judged Israel all the days of his life" 1 Samuel 7:15. In spite of Saul, he judged Israel. He judged Israel in circuit, too, and particularly in his own house. As if to say, 'You come to my house and see how things are. What my house is, is according to how I judge. I will think of you and judge you accordingly'. How the disciples proved this with Jesus! "Rabbi", they say, "where abidest thou?"; "Come and see", John 1:38,39. He says. They would see where He abode and would see what the abode was, how He was at home.

And so here in 1 Samuel 7:2 we get, "And all the house of Israel lamented after Jehovah". And presently Samuel speaks the prophetic word and they gathered together to Mizpah, and poured water out on the ground before Jehovah. They did not say, It cannot be gathered up again. Not now. They understand what it is in the presence of Samuel. All that is of God will be gathered up again. "And Samuel judged the children of Israel in Mizpah" 1 Samuel 7:6. That is, all the secrets are dealt with. He judged

them there where they were gathered in Mizpah. Have things gone into before God! Let us keep short accounts if we are to become men. Young people, keep short accounts with God, confess things to God; to the brethren, too, if need be, but to God. Have everything out with God.

And then the people have increasing confidence in Samuel; "Cease not to cry to Jehovah our God for us", they say to him. They are becoming men. The kingdom of God is marked by this, that is, the spirit of prayer. They were right; they had rightly gauged the great servant amongst them. "God forbid that I should sin against the Lord in ceasing to pray for you", 1 Samuel 12:23 he says in chapter 12. He kept on praying for them.

Then 1 Samuel 7:9 offered a sucking-lamb, a type of Jesus, the dependent Man. Samuel offered it as a whole burnt offering to God. God must act in relation to that, and He does. But then He looks for men to battle as well as He. What an honour to fight with God! He had thundered on the Philistines, and now the matter is somewhat incomplete. God had chosen it so to bring out what was there. God delights to do this, to bring out what is of Himself in His people. He brought about conditions to bring out what was in Saul to judge, and here it is to bring out what is of Himself in His people. "And the men of Israel went out of Mizpah, and pursued the Philistines, and smote them, as far as below Beth-car". They finished the matter. It was a complete victory over the Philistines. And so, you will observe, "Samuel took a stone and set it between Mizpah and Shen, and called the name of it Eben-ezer, and said, Hitherto Jehovah has helped us". But they did something, the men of Israel. God brought circumstances into existence that drew out what was there, the beautiful result of the influence of Samuel. As I might say as applied to ourselves, the beautiful result

in manhood of the influence of Christ. And so the matter is finished, and the stone is set up and given a name, "Eben-ezer", "Hitherto Jehovah has helped us". And we read "the hand of Jehovah was against the Philistines all the days of Samuel". That is what I would impress on each of us here, that we should not be half-hearted, but go on to completeness, as it was here. "All the days of Samuel" are mentioned: that is, he is a man who finishes.

May God bless the word.

ADJUSTMENT BY DIVINE LIGHT

1 Samuel 16:1,6,7, 11 - 13; 2 Samuel 12:13 - 23; John 21:15 - 19 (first clause)

The word that covers my subject is very familiar, it is the word 'adjustment'. There seems to be no need for it in the physical creation, in that designated as the worlds, which were framed by the word of God, the term 'worlds' covering what we call the universe, not only our universe or solar system, but all the worlds; they seem to move on without need of external adjustment; whereas in the moral system which is correlative, adjustment is constantly needed, and in using the word one has in mind perhaps a little more than it literally conveys, and that where it takes place, as needed, there is not only correction, but ability to go on according to one's best days, to go on according to the greatest light that one has received. I say the light received because though the true light now shines, we cannot assume to have received all of it. There is not only light in the sense in which John presents it, the true light which is Christ, He is the true Light, but there is that beautiful expansion of the thought in light from heaven. Of course Christ was light from heaven, for He came down from heaven, but the apostle Paul speaks of a light shining down from heaven; we cannot say all have received it, but it shines; it "shone ... round about me", Acts 22:6 the apostle Paul says. It is, however, what we receive that is effective. Light comes in through the eye, and it is said "If therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body will be light", Matthew 6:22 no part dark, that is the light is allowed to shine unhinderedly through the appointed channel. One great principle in the work of God in us is that we allow Him His way, whether it be in an assembly, or in a person. We are to make way

for God, and if it be that light is shining, then let it shine in, not only round about us. It is according to this light, as it may have shone into any of us and been received, that, if adjustment takes place, we function according to that light, according to the light we enjoyed in our best days. Adjustment is thus what is positive, not simply correction, so that there is a resumption of functions that are proper to any one of us.

I have selected these three great servants of God, Samuel, David and Peter, as illustrative of what I have in mind, persons amenable to adjustment in the sense in which I have spoken of it. The fact that such men needed this is a solemn warning to all of us, even the most spiritual, for these are outstanding spiritual men and servants of God. What is in mind is not to call attention to their failures, but to their adjustments and their amenableness to adjustment, so that in result God lost nothing; He gained in each case. It is a sorrowful contemplation if one has to own that God has lost something in oneself. Now Samuel, as you will observe, kept on mourning for Saul; he had to do with Saul from the outset of his official service and he anointed him. Where a servant has a convert and that convert becomes distinguished, the servant is apt to remember and peculiar links are apt to spring up going beyond what is spiritual. It appears that Samuel was affected in this way so that he is out of accord for the moment with the mind of Jehovah. Jehovah had rejected Saul, we are told in the clause immediately preceding this chapter, and Samuel had not; he had done so officially, that is, he had done so as Jehovah's servant, as we might say in ministry. In the previous chapter he speaks by the word of Jehovah to Saul, he overlooks nothing, no language could be plainer, no message more faithful than the word he spoke to the defaulting king; Saul had rejected the Lord and the Lord had

rejected him from ruling over His people. The mind of God was perfectly plain, not only to Saul or anyone who heard Samuel speak, but above all, plain in Samuel's mind.

But then, dear brethren, what we say on the platform -- for in chapter 15 he speaks by the word of the Lord, it is ministry as it were -- what we say thus may be in every way right, but as soon as the service is ended our mind may be different, and that is what we have to guard against, and it is that in which Samuel failed here. Mourning is laudable under certain circumstances, certainly as in the case of Josiah, when Jeremiah mourned, and all the singing men and singing women mourned and made lamentation for him; he was worthy; but to mourn for Saul is another matter, for he is the man who failed God. He had a wonderful beginning in his official service, but he failed God. His failure is to be mourned, of course, but to mourn for him in the sense of friendship, because I once had strong personal links with him, is another matter; it has no place in the divine lamentations and that is where Samuel missed it. He mourned, we are told, for Saul when Jehovah had rejected Saul. This is a serious matter, as also in any similar circumstances, because other great services are to be rendered by Samuel, if not by Saul. Immediately another charge is given to him, and now we see the bearing of his mourning for Saul; we see that he has damaged his own soul. Let us never forget this, dear brethren, it is not simply the act, that which is external, but the damage we do to our own souls. This section is full of light, negatively and positively, it is one of the most remarkable sections in Scripture. It is a record of Saul's reign, and earlier the light came in of another man elected, so that the ruling man, the acting man, the distinguished man for the moment is already displaced, displaced in the mind of God.

This history of displacement is another matter that runs along with what I am saying, it is a matter of soul history, a history of displacement. We are told earlier that Samuel says to Saul, "Jehovah has sought him a man after his own heart, and Jehovah has appointed him ruler over his people; for thou hast not kept what Jehovah commanded thee", 1 Samuel 13:14. That was earlier light; this matter of displacement had already taken place in regard of Saul; in the mind of God, Saul was no more, as you might say. It was all over; be it a few days, or a few months, or a few years, that had nothing to do with it, it was all over in the mind of God. Now this history of displacement in our souls, dear brethren, is one of the most important points to take account of; I began my spiritual history with it, with displacement, and Samuel had light earlier, so that he had plenty of time for reflection, for being formed according to the light of the mind of God, the light of displacement involved that the active man was already dismissed and another appointed to rule, the other unnamed, but still another person. Let us get that into our minds, the active man is displaced in the mind of God. Then Samuel gets the word of God expressly for Saul, and he delivers it, as I said, most faithfully in chapter 15. Yet now he is mourning, and we are told that God has rejected Saul.

There is a new order of things coming in in the mind of heaven, and it ought to have been in the mind of Samuel, but he is out of accord for the moment; he has allowed the natural unduly; the links were strong but they were not altogether spiritual. You will observe in the previous chapter that even Saul induces Samuel to follow him; he turned again after him, after such a faithful message from God, which meant that he was no longer to be followed, he was to be regarded as a rejected man. But Samuel found tears enough to shed for him; he

mourned for him. They were not heaven's tears, they were not tears like those of Jesus, and now Jehovah rebukes him, He says to him, "how long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him?"

Then he gets another commission -- I want to speak of that just for a moment, dear brethren, as I have already alluded to it. But we see here how our souls become damaged more than we are aware of through natural links: they may be formed primarily in the spiritual sense -- but continuing too far and as the spiritual wanes, the links remain and our souls are damaged. These damages have to be repaired and the reparation of them implies adjustment not only in negative thought but that we pursue our best line, our best services, that we re-acquire our best tastes, our best sight, our best feelings. Now Samuel undertakes the commission, and he goes to Bethlehem. Now Jehovah says, It is the one I appoint. Remember, Samuel had the light of another in his soul according to chapter 13; another was there in the mind of God, already appointed. He was not a Samuel unborn, it was a David already there; already appointed to be ruler. Why is Samuel not looking for this man that is so pleasing to God? Has he forgotten what pleases God? Samuel knew well what pleased Jehovah; no one in his day pleased him more than he himself; he knew what was pleasing to Jehovah in an earlier day, in a ruler or in any servant; he himself was the best expression of the thing, but why this defect? Why is he looking for a different kind of man from himself, a man whom God so often approved? God had great pleasure in Samuel; He put him forward. He would not allow a word of his to fall to the ground; He liked him so well; He did indeed. The evidence is that he was looking for a man like Saul; that was what was in his mind. If I have been conscious of God's pleasure

in me why should I look for a different kind of man? Understand, dear brethren, I am not talking of myself, I am speaking of the principle. Why should I go far afield? I have the thing right by me. Why should Samuel have in his mind a different idea from himself? But he had, you see, and what is the secret of it? He was damaged by natural affection for a fallen servant; he would rather have Saul continue on even as he was. God says, 'I have rejected him, why are you mourning for him?'. Still God does not reject Samuel; He had too much pleasure in Samuel for that; He knew it was but a passing matter, and he was adjustable, he would be adjustable immediately; Jehovah knew that. He knows us all well, dear brethren, our capabilities, and He will have His way with us; He will bring us back to our best days, our best services, our best feelings, and He will do it quickly.

Well, Eliab appears, a fine-looking man, he is the man, "Surely the Lord's anointed is before him". Before Him, you notice; he is putting that man before Jehovah in his mind. Eliab is the ideal in his mind, and Jehovah is looking inside him, and He sees in Samuel's heart that he has missed the mark for the moment; he has the wrong man in his mind. Jehovah came to Samuel in the temple, you remember, and told him about Eli and Eli's sons; He displaced them in Samuel's heart but Samuel is allowing a man of that kind: a Saul comes back into his mind as his ideal. Jehovah says, 'That will not do, Samuel, I have not chosen him, you ought to know', So I ought, in my earlier days I would know. So Samuel has lost ground, and now I want to show you, dear brethren, without enlarging on him unduly, how quickly he recovers himself. He says to Jesse, "Are these all the young men?". No, Jesse says, there is another. Had Samuel looked around these young men? Had he questioned in his own mind

which of them was the selected of Jehovah? Had he asked Jehovah about it? It does not appear so. Jehovah says, 'It is the one I appoint', so that I am to be on the qui vive if I have been mourning for a Saul instead of God's man; let God help me or I am helpless. Samuel did not let God help him at first; he named Eliab by himself, and he missed the mark. So the others pass by. No, he says; he has learned so much now, he is adjusted already; he is now listening for Jehovah, and there is no selected one there at all. You see the plight we get into, dear brethren, by pursuing this line, there is no selected one at all in the house, a house without the anointed of God, without the selected one! Is he in Samuel's heart? Well, he is coming into his heart, but apparently in nobody else's heart at the moment. Samuel ought to have brought into the house, on his first visitation, the ideal of God, and spread it abroad among the whole company -- only Christ. Paul says, "Yet not I, but Christ liveth in me", Galatians 2:20. Were it so with Samuel the ideal would be spread abroad, permeating the whole company; they did not miss David at all. It was a Christless company for the moment, solemn thing to say with a spiritual man like that there, but then he is adjustable, and so he says, "Send and fetch him". He wants the real Christ, he is ready for Him, he is perfectly amenable. Jehovah knows it. Send for him; let us wait till he comes in; there will be no sitting down till he comes in. No one but Christ will do now that Samuel is adjusted. He is adjusted not only negatively, not only has he judged himself for naming the anointed without Jehovah, but he is adjusted positively; he wants Christ, the real Man, and so David comes in. There he is, there is no question about it, but Jehovah says, I am not going to trust Samuel yet. He says, Samuel, rise, anoint him, he is the one.

That is all I have to say about him save to add that Samuel went to Ramah. It is all over now, Christ is in His place; we can never have anything right until Christ is in His place. Samuel can be right now, he says, I will be right at Ramah, that is where I used to judge Israel. That is where he did judge Israel, and he will do it better than ever before now that Christ is in His place.

Now I go on to David, that is as a great sinner. It is very humbling indeed, dear brethren, to look around and observe how much of this kind of thing there is happening in a greater or lesser degree, but the Spirit of God would never tell us about this sin of David were it not that it was a man like David, a man that took it up so wonderfully, so gracefully, and who was restored and adjusted so perfectly. It is as if God would say, I love the very thought of the way that man has recovered himself. David has to suffer, as Peter has to suffer, for our sakes; it is all for our sakes, that these things are recounted. Has God nothing in this? Yes, He has a great deal in Samuel's adjustment, and more in David's adjustment. It was a great sin, but Nathan comes to him and he pictures the sin; it is God in grace making it as easy as possible for the sinner to repent; He always does that, makes it as easy as possible for the mind and for the conscience of the sinner to repent. It is grace that such a servant should be sent to him with such a parable. All this originated in heaven; it was heaven's way of meeting this great sinner, but he was met perfectly and he answered to it perfectly. Has God no pleasure in all this? He had pleasure in Nathan's service; He had pleasure in David's word, "I have sinned", as he says here, "I have sinned against Jehovah". How ready he was, but we can understand it, it was David. We should never have the account had it been a man like Saul; God would have no pleasure in parading before unborn

millions such a degrading sin as this. No, beloved, He would never do it were it not in a man like David, just to bring out what David is; it is to bring out what I and all christians are by the work of God; that is the idea. God allows things to bring out what He effects. He has pleasure in all that; be the sin ever so abominable, ever so degrading, God has pleasure in His own work. That is the point, it comes out immediately, and shines brilliantly at once, "I have sinned against Jehovah", he says. No equivocation whatever, no conditions at all, no excuses, it is simply a confession that he had sinned against Jehovah, as he says, "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight". We should never have had Psalm 51 if this had not happened, and we could never have had that psalm if it had not happened in David. These sins have happened in many, but in a David they have happened according to divine ordering, it must yield to the book of Psalms, the sweet psalmist of Israel has to say to the result, it belongs to the service of God. The psalm ends, "Build thou the walls of Jerusalem". Psalm 51:18. That is to say the man is brought back; he is not only corrected, and judged himself, but, as the passage shows, he goes back to his best days; he worships God. There is no higher thought, beloved than that: he worshipped God. The great end that God has in mind today in all that is happening is that we might worship God, He is seeking worshippers, and He has such a worshipper now in David as He could not have had before.

I want to make a few further remarks as to how the adjustment came about here. We have the number of days, what a searching time, David lying on the earth, eating nothing, the child sick, sick by the divine stroke; what a scene for heaven, day after day, the child sick, and sickening, sickening, he dies -- seven days -- the adjustment requires that:

it must be perfect spiritually. Adjustment cannot be other than perfect spiritually: spiritual adjustment means not only correction, not only self-judgment, but that I am to go on positively according to my best days. That is what is in mind, yea, with David better days than ever before. So he lies on the earth and his servants are watching him. We may thank God for such watchers, as we need adjustment. They do not understand him, for the more spiritual I am the less I am understood; the spiritual discerns all things, but he is never discerned fully. They do not understand him; many a man has to suffer in this way, he is too spiritual even in his failures to be understood. Such is the life of a spiritual man, the experience of a spiritual man that is beyond understanding. His servants do not understand him: he lay on the earth while the child was alive, he arose and anointed himself and went and worshipped when the child died; who can understand a man like that? The secret is, beloved, he is a spiritual man and that is what God knew about him; God is bringing out wonderful things in his servant. He knew what was there, and it is all coming out now. Then David hears them whispering, he understands them; many of us do not think a spiritual man understands us; he does, a spiritual man understands your whispering, and there will be no want of that in these circumstances. Why not speak out? They were whispering; they did not understand David, but he understood them, and he understood that the child was dead. It was as much as to say in their whispering, he is not spiritual; they did not understand him, he will be worse than he was before; that is not spirituality. A spiritual man discerns the judgment of God, and when that is executed he knows that God will go on, that God is not going to stop in this matter. He goes on, and the spiritual man says I will go on too, the matter is settled. What a great

triumph that is, the matter is settled in David's mind, and he arose and washed himself and changed his garments and entered in and worshipped God. He is a leader in the service of God and he is now entering on his best days, pursuing his old line, the best days he had; he is entering on them, serving God. Well, they say, explain it. Well, it is just this, that the judgment of God has exhausted itself, it is all over, and I am going to begin over again; I began with God; He would have me to go on as before. God has judged the thing and I have judged it, and I am another man now, I mean I am what I used to be. He changed his clothes and washed himself and worshipped God. It is the old David, as I may say, speaking simply, the kind of David that was known spiritually before; he has now come up again, the child is dead, that is all finished. But a Solomon is in view; the horizon is lit up in the next verse with a Solomon. What glorious prospects David has now! A worshipper, he is adjusted, and, dear brethren, that is what is in mind today; God is looking for worshippers, men too, that will carry on the service; and of course I need not tell you the later history of David, how he inaugurated the service of God.

Now I go on to Peter. He is the outstanding man of the New Testament to support what I have been saying. You will observe that this is a prolonged matter, although Peter was adjustable from the outset, as the Lord looked on him. Luke tells us that the Lord looked on Peter as the cock crew, and Peter went out and wept bitterly; he did not go out to worship like David, but still the process is similar; he wept bitterly, he was as it were going through the thing with God. How long he wept I cannot say; he wept bitterly and he went out, it was all real. But three days afterwards the Lord Jesus appeared to him, what a meeting that was! He appeared unto Simon. It does not say He rebuked him because the

second time it was grace, it was indeed in principle the inauguration of this wonderful day in which we are, the day of grace; it was the Lord saying, 'This is the order of this wonderful day, this acceptable year of the Lord', and indeed the brethren were talking about it. It says, "The Lord ... has appeared to Simon" Luke 24:34; they were talking about it in the assembly as gathered together, but then the process was somewhat longer, but if it need be long let the result be perfect, dear brethren. That is what comes out in Peter, the result is perfect. He had professed to love the Lord Jesus, but the Lord told him he would do all this; he professed to love Christ more than all, "I will lay down my life for thee", but the Lord says, "Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice", John 13:37,38 and it was so, but there were two things: he said he loved the Lord more than any, and he said he would lay down his life for Him. He could not say anything greater, if it were really true, than that he loved the Lord Jesus, for that is what he implied; the Lord's remark to him intimates that he thought his love exceeded all others, and these two things must go together in the adjustment; the Lord took him at his word. I verily believe, dear brethren, that if any resolution is taken, however feebly, before the Lord, He will bring you to it; He may allow a breakdown, but He will bring you to it, and that is the adjustment. He would say, That is the very best thing you ever said, and I will hold you to it, circumstances will bring you to it. Such is our Lord and Master, He works on this line, He works according to His own mind but He loves to work from ours too; as our minds accord with His He puts it on our minds and credits us with it and says, I will bring you to it. So that I verily believe it is a good thing to make resolutions; certain are said to have addicted themselves to the ministry; in fact if you make a vow it says, see that you pay it, as if

God is pleased with a vow. I am not making you legal, but God loves people to make resolutions in His presence, and He says, I will see to you and bring you to it, and will be with you till you come to it. David had to go through much sorrow, and who could depict what an experience Peter had in those awful days? He went out and wept bitterly, the three days in which the Lord lay in the tomb, and yet wonderful to say the Lord came into the midst. He did not say a word to him personally as far as we know. In John 20 there was not a single complaint; there was nothing to complain of for that is the abstract thought, if you understand me, though Peter's real complete recovery was still future. May not one suppose that there might have been a gesture to Peter even then in the company, suggesting that things were not altogether right yet. The Lord was standing, He was ready to serve Peter. Even great as John 20:19 is, Peter's incomplete recovery was there, incomplete adjustment was there. Did the Lord not know it? He was there to serve, He is standing. "If I wash thee not" John 13:8, the Lord had said to him, and he needed it again. The Lord says, I am ready; He is ready now for anyone here, always ready.

Peter and six other brothers went off on a fishing expedition, without Jesus, as if nothing had happened. This is the third time the Lord appeared to His disciples; the first is in chapter 20:19, the second later in that chapter, and the third is in chapter 21. The third manifestation; it is not simply an appearing, it is a manifestation, a word that John selects peculiarly, so after they had dined the Lord raises the question of love; that is really what He means. He knew what was there, and the third time He says, "Lovest thou me?". Peter is grieved now, but the matter is urgent, the Lord is finishing the work; there is nothing more interesting than a finished

work. So Peter says to the Lord, "Lord, thou knowest all things", and He did, of course, divinely; but Peter says, You know that I have affection for Thee. One has often called attention to the change of words here, it is very instructive for all of us. The last word 'knowest', that Peter uses, is an objective 'know'. Peter is now saying to the Lord, 'You have finished the matter, You can see that in me externally there is some evidence that I love You', and it was so, the Lord had brought that about, whether it was in a gesture of Peter's or a look, or whatever it was, he could say truthfully to the Lord, 'You can see in me that I love You'; the Lord knew that. I would like to be able to say, 'Lord, You can see in me that I love You'. The Lord liked that, He liked the change of word that Peter made; that he should select another word for 'know', referring to what is positive, to what the Lord could see in him visibly; he says, 'You can see by that how I love You'. The Lord says that will do, that is enough, the matter is finished. I am to demonstrate not that I have loved the Lord, but that I now love Him, and others can see it too; the matter is finished, so the Lord now says to Peter, there is one difficulty, it is a question of your youth, youthful energy. I have sympathy with young people, because youthfulness in itself is an exposure to the devil, and the more we understand it the more we shall set our faces against it; the more I see the danger the more safe I am if I set my face against it: The Lord says, "When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest; but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee wither thou wouldest not". That is the finish. Peter is entirely resigned to the will of God, and he is laying down his life for Jesus, as he previously wished to do.

That is all, dear brethren: you can see that in each of these three cases the matter is finished, and that is what the Lord is aiming at, so that we may go on according to our best days in the service of God, Godward and manward.

QUALITIES NECESSARY FOR PRIESTHOOD

Exodus 18:10 - 12; Exodus 24:5; Exodus 28:1 - 4,40 - 43

J.T. What is in mind is to seek under the Lord to reach an understanding of priesthood so far as we can. The service of God as far as we are concerned necessarily calls for priesthood in the sense in which it appears in chapter 28. Earlier it is seen in these other scriptures; first in Jethro, and then in the youths of Israel in chapter 24. The appearance of the subject in the book is very orderly, for the idea of service begins in chapter 3, where it is stated it should be in a certain place, namely, the mountain, and then Israel is viewed as a son in view of service.

Moses asserted to Pharaoh several times that there should be cattle suitable for offerings to Jehovah. What is striking is that Jethro comes into it according to the verses read as showing us that quality suitable for priesthood must underlie the official exercise of it: that is, before the thing is owned officially it must be there in quality. Jethro represents the formative side -- he is growing in his soul, having heard from Moses what God had done for Israel -- and he goes into it joyously (Exodus 18:9) and in verse 10 he blesses Jehovah. Following that he confesses his knowledge, "I know that Jehovah is greater than all gods; for in the thing in which they acted haughtily he was above them". He is gathering up the true knowledge of God, and the true knowledge of God is essential to the service of God as priests. He took a burnt-offering and sacrifices for God; Aaron comes and all the elders to eat bread in the presence of God. That is evidently a good meeting; no official priest but nevertheless priestly service.

The service of God is to be marked by freshness; these youths of the children of Israel are there under the direction of the mediator. This element runs through from this point; priesthood is subservient to mediatorship. That is, authority in Christ is present in regard to the exercise of priesthood, which leads us to chapter 28, where we have the formal requirements of God, "That he may serve me as priest". "And thou shalt take thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may serve me as priest".

In chapter 19 Jehovah says, "Then shall ye be my own possession out of all the peoples -- for all the earth is mine -- and ye shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation". Exodus 19:5,6. That is the thought applying to all, but chapter 28 contemplates selection, the idea is narrowed down to a family, and they, in particular, are to serve Jehovah as priests. Again in verse 4 we get "That he may serve me as priest", and in the end of the chapter "That they may serve me as priests" (verse 41).

Ques. What is the difference between a "kingdom of priests" and a family?

J.T. I think it is a question of quality. It is a principle with God that when a matter is introduced it becomes more and more refined; it is the principle of refinement, that which is more excellent, showing that Israel will have a priestly place by and by on earth, but we have it in a more refined and exalted way. We belong to a priestly family.

E.L.M. Is it that the point of refinement should be reached that should immediately concern us?

J.T. We ought to have it before us; the heavenly calling requires this thought of refinement and selection.

J.H.T. When you speak of selection in chapter 28 have you in mind Aaron's previous history in chapter 4

where he kissed his brother and he and Moses brought the people to the point of worship?

J.T. He is in the background from the beginning. In speaking to Moses Jehovah had in His mind a one-man matter -- and of course it is in the antitype, Christ is Apostle and High Priest -- so in speaking to Moses the emphasis is that the whole matter is to be in his hands. Aaron meeting Moses suggests the truth of 'brethren', but primarily God had one Man in mind in the whole matter; He had Christ in mind. It was so ordered that mediatorship is in one man's hand and priesthood is in another. In teaching, no doubt, it is good that it is so. We learn in part and we can see the matter more clearly in that way; Aaron is clearly in the background from the beginning.

J.McK. In Romans 15, where the apostle speaks of the saints glorifying the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, would that be priesthood appearing?

J.T. Informally, not yet formally. Romans runs parallel with this; we have priesthood without naming it.

W.L. This matter of priestly service becomes all a question of clothing, does it not?

J.T. Clothing represents qualities, the great divine thoughts touching the office. In Exodus young brothers come into it. We are taken up for service and reminded that we are sons, and God asserts there are certain qualities needed in the matter. Every christian is a priest but God reminds us He looks for certain qualities. If I give out a hymn my spirit moves me to do it, but even a favourite hymn must be with the understanding; my intelligence must indicate it is suitable or I do not use it. Likewise in everything in the assembly, intelligence is the thought. I am to sing with the intelligence and pray with the intelligence.

J.H.T. I wondered if intelligence appeared in the youths in chapter 24; when Moses sent them, they offered sacrifices without being specifically commanded.

J.T. It alludes to the progress already made in the book. Jethro is the formation that comes into the soul; he is a foreigner but he is coming into the truth and going on in it. The youngest brother is able to officiate with the most experienced brother.

E.L.M. Would the youths be an indication of progress -- a wider thought, there are more of them?

J.T. In each case the service fits. It is indeed great; I do not jar anyone in this service, I do not offend the ear of the assembly, or, above all, the ear of God, for He is listening. Divine Persons are attentive. It is the spiritual element that is to lead us, so that what the youths had here seems to be in advance of Jethro. What he did he did of himself, meaning all young believers growing by the true knowledge of God come into fellowship and take part.

Aaron came to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law. The next occasion is under authority; he sent the youths of the children of Israel and they offered burnt offerings and sacrifices of peace offering of bullocks to Jehovah. This connects with the Lord's supper; we are under the Lord's authority, but anyone with liberty in his soul in the assembly as under authority may take part, but the point is what is done is suitable.

F.W. Would Jethro indicate formation in the every-day life? We were noticing yesterday how frequently he is stated to be the father-in-law.

J.T. His relation to Moses is expressed ten or twelve times as "in-law". In his case it was extended back a good while, but as he heard things (and, indeed, he is hearing things from Moses), he is affected, and then he has the wife with him and sons -- they would be an abstract thought in relation to

the assembly in a person of this stature. The gospel suggests the thought to us, the basis of offering is in the gospel in Romans. The idea of the wife is with Jethro; she is not brought into the feast. She is recognised, but the meeting is really made up of Jethro, who has the leading part, and Aaron and all the elders of Israel. It is in the presence of God; it is a meeting characterised by the peace-offering. It is not so far that Jehovah has part in the thing, but it is in keeping with the presence of God.

F.W. You were suggesting that it is relative to the Lord's supper, the youths introducing the thought. It is "under the mountain"; it is a different position from "up ... into the mountain".

J.T. They have now committed themselves formally to Jehovah, and so they were in a morally greater position and Moses is moving in sending the youths; it does not seem he says what to do, but they do it under his influence.

G.E.E. Would you say the youths are together in it in relation to the covenant?

J.T. I thought they maintained the freshness of it; that is important in our meetings. There is no one of us that has not been affected by the part young brothers have taken. Progress in the subject is here, in freshness, and under control; it is not a brother doing it of himself. In the assembly we must be always under control; that is what appears here.

S.H. Are the young brought in before the priesthood is established?

J.T. It is not a simply individual impulse; they are under orders; they are under control. We come together in assembly and it is the Lord's matter; it is His authority from the outset.

F.W. Would you indicate what position this sprinkling of blood has in our economy?

J.T. It is 1 Corinthians where we have the blood, "the new covenant in my blood". 1 Corinthians 11:25. We have not got

the blood in the second letter, it is the spirit of the new covenant there. This chapter corresponds with 1 Corinthians 11, where the blood is part of the Lord's supper.

J.H.T. As to priesthood in Romans you have the quality appearing, "full of goodness" Romans 15:4, and in Colossians spiritual feelings coming forward and in Ephesians the intelligence: "being enlightened in the eyes of your heart". Ephesians 1:18.

J.T. That is the order. You are strengthened in chapter 3 by the Father's Spirit. We were saying in Plymouth that what is developed first of all are qualities of service in the living creatures in Revelation. There is the face of a man, a lion, the calf and flying eagle; these are qualities developed livingly in young christians or however old we may be. The elders refer to persons; the qualities are subservient to persons. They know just what to do and wait upon the exercise of quality in the assembly. The elders come in when the living creatures come in.

W.L. Would you say what we are to understand by priestly service?

J.T. Chapter 28 introduces it to us formally. We have already been remarking that certain serve unofficially; that is, they serve in relation to certain qualities, formation in Jethro and freshness in the youths; now we have an advanced point and God is opening a heavenly system. Moses is to be there forty days. He is there to receive all those wonderful divine thoughts: the tabernacle is stated to be a representation of things in the heavens, and Jehovah is showing him the pattern. Priesthood comes in in the midst of all this, as if, in the presence of such great thoughts, we need persons of intelligence. Things must be done rightly. Chapter 28 opens the thing up and it is now in the one family; we are now in the presence of the greatest thoughts. We must

learn everything from Christ; the saints thus come in and take their part.

W.F. "Consider the apostle and high priest ...". Hebrews 3:1.

J.T. It is that we might learn priesthood in Christ. Peter says we are priests.

W.B. Would we get the quality of service in Peter: "Sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ"? 1 Peter 2:5.

J.T. That is the thought.

W.F. What is the thought of "by Jesus Christ"? 1 Peter 2:5.

J.T. We offer in relation to Him.

W.L. Does priesthood mean offering up spiritual sacrifices?

J.T. Priesthood means that divine requirements are taken care of. I do not think it will go into eternity: it will not be needed, it is too great a position. What God is, the exigencies of divine nature, require this in addition to Sonship. The primary thought is that sons shall serve, but priesthood shows it is provisional to keep in restraint all that would defile in relation to God.

W.L. Is it confined in expression to the Supper?

J.T. It goes right through.

E.G. It would come into prayer.

J.T. It affects all that attaches to the service of God.

J.H.T. Do you get priests standing for God in Uzziah's day when eighty priests withstood him (2 Chronicles 26:18)?

J.T. They are maintaining the rights of God.

G.E.E. Would spiritual conditions be seen in Hebrews 2:11? He is "not ashamed to call them brethren".

J.T. That is the highest point in Hebrews. In the truth viewed as we shall be in heaven as entirely in Christ's present humanity the thought of priesthood is not necessary. It does not say He is 'not

ashamed to call us priests', but brethren; He sings Himself in the midst of the assembly. We are partakers of His humanity there, His holy nature; we shall share that eternally. Priesthood is not there.

Ques. Has the Lord anything less to offer now than the prayers and praises of His people?

J.T. He is there Himself.

W.F. "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise continually to God". Hebrews 13:15.

J.T. It is more that we offer, not that He offers us. It is a continual service carried on, seen in its most exalted way in the assembly.

E.T.S. Could we do without priesthood in our worship?

J.T. It is a question of whether we are free of our flesh and blood condition; it is doubtful if any one of us can say we are; there is nothing else suggested than serving as priest here.

Ques. If there is to be response and God is to have things presented fully and acceptably, can you not see the necessity for conditions?

J.T. It is all in view of conditions. When we reach the types, the temple and the service there, are a figure of eternal things. We reach a point there where priests cannot minister. That does not mean the saints are shut out, but we have got on to the eternal state of things; the metals of the temple denote what the saints are, the official side is just dropped.

E.L.M. Would that suggest three offices of priesthood -- the moral qualifications of Jethro, the youths and more official side in chapter 28, and touching what is eternal that you have alluded to?

J.T. That is good. The priests could not serve, and yet the glory was there and affections of God were satisfying themselves; Christ remains Son before the Father -- priesthood is in abeyance.

Ques. I noticed a remark in your prayer in connection with Peter's word, "the holy one of God", John 6:69 and I wondered if that bore upon priesthood.

J.T. It does, intimately. John's gospel contemplates persons affected by the presence and service of Christ. John the baptist sees Him sacrificially, as the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world; he is able to name that Person; the woman at the well sees Him in another way, as He takes her on in the service. She is to be a vessel in the great administrative work He has taken on. "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand" John 3:35, and then in chapter 4 the woman is affected by the Lord in an administrative capacity. She is brought into the thing as her soul is enlightened as to Him. She leaves her waterpot and goes into the city, meaning she understands she is part of the great administrative system. Peter comes in next, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal; and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God", John 6:68,69. That is the way He carries on the service of God. There is the sacrificial side and the administrative side and priestly side. Peter sees the priesthood at Jerusalem set aside.

J.H.T. Was it in your mind to say a few words as to verse 4?

J.T. There is no time. What is in mind is more general, this expression particularly "That he may serve me as priest", not as son. It is sons that serve, only priesthood is needed because of conditions and that raises the whole question of what state we are in. The garments are qualities in which priesthood is exercised; the whole chapter undertakes for the necessity for suitable conditions.

E.G. Would you say a word about the plural thought, 'sons'?

J.T. The linen garments are brought in particularly with them, showing a balance to the subject of beauty. The chief idea is Christ in His garments of glory and beauty; in the sons it is in a lesser way but with the linen. It keeps us balanced.

Ques. Do the garments represent various states of soul qualifying for priesthood?

J.T. "And these are the garments which they shall make: a breastplate, and an ephod, and a cloak, and a checkered vest, a turban, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may serve me as priest". The breastplate is remarkable as coming first; that is, so to say, that which includes all the saints in the affections of Christ. He has all the saints upon His heart; Aaron never went in without this. It is as if God would say, You must have all the saints. In a lesser way in each of Aaron's sons there is what would take character from the breastplate. You must love the saints.

Ques. Do the clothes indicate the qualities or features of mind underneath the clothes?

J.T. You must have the qualities; the clothes are the external evidence of the state we are in.

That brings in another matter; namely, the Hebrew bondman as a figure of Christ. He loves master, wife and children; that is, love is in widest evidence: ascending, horizontal, so to speak, and descending love is there. He undertakes to remain in that attitude for ever; that is the full limit of love. In chapter 28 it is the same Person in type only in glorious garments indicating that love underneath was there.

GOD HONOURING HIS SON

Matthew 22:1 - 14; Matthew 25:1 - 13; Revelation 22:16,17

J.T. What is in mind is to show that the idea of the bride and Bridegroom runs actively through the dispensation from the beginning to the end, and that it particularly enters into the service of God as presently constituted. Matthew, as these passages show, brings it in perhaps more than the other evangelists, although the idea is in all of them. It may be helpful to remark that, in the types, the thought is connected with God: the marital thought has its origin with God. God thought of it in regard of Christ and the assembly: Abraham thought of it in regard of Isaac: Isaac thought of it in regard of Jacob: that is, the fatherly or parental feature of the truth enters into it. So that as in assembly service, that part of it that is referring to the Lord includes that God would make much of Christ and have Him honoured, as He says Himself, "That all may honour the Son, even as they honour the Father" John 5:23; and that links our first scripture with God making a marriage for His Son in type and figure, and the thought is to make it the most felicitous occasion possible; joyousness spiritually belongs to such an occasion, and this is to be reflected throughout the dispensation. Chapter 25 presents the marital thought from the side of affection in the virgins to show how it had lapsed and become revived. So at the end of Revelation we have both bride and Bridegroom: the bride is not in view in the gospels formally, but she is in Revelation and speaks with the Spirit.

W.W. Is it that Matthew brings in this sort of ministry more than the other writers on account of his being an assembly gospel?

J.T. Well, I had that in mind. The assembly is what I suppose we might call the prime thought in

relation to Christ in the gospel of Matthew, and these marital parables -- as we may call them -- come in after the assembly is spoken of formally; first of all, Christ's assembly, viewed thus as the assembly in administrative function, so that it is obvious the bearing of these parables must be toward the assembly. We have similes of the kingdom of God before chapter 16 and then, after chapter 16, we have a series of similes which contemplate the existence of the assembly -- these parables of the kingdom of the heavens contemplate the existence of the assembly; in fact historically the joy contemplated in the wedding feast, as it is called, necessitates the assembly. There was no Jewish thing capable of such a feast as this, for it is a question, not of the wedding, but of the wedding feast; it is real satisfaction that is in mind. God would have us to understand that it is to honour His Son, that He does it for His Son; it is a most joyous time, and the place for it suggests the assembly; conditions for it are not found elsewhere any more than they are for the house in Luke 15, which is a parallel thought and contemplates the assembly.

W.C. Would wisdom's house in Proverbs 9, where similar language is used, confirm what you are saying as to the assembly preceding the feast?

J.T. I think that is good. "Wisdom hath builded her house" Proverbs 9:1 -- there is everything there that is needed for such an occasion. Where could you find conditions suitable for such a joyous occasion when you consider who it is -- it is God preparing for His Son -- save in the assembly?

Ques. The king made a wedding feast for his son; would that speak of the movements of God in time?

J.T. It does. It took on a supremely joyous character and it could only do so because there were conditions.

J.S. Would it be right to say that the kingdom of the heavens being made like to ten virgins would suggest the way God has come in in latter days and wrought definitely?

J.T. Well, historically, chapter 25 dates back to the beginning, but it would not go as far back as chapter 22, because the foolish virgins, that is, professors of christianity, are contemplated in chapter 25 God, as it were, brought this about; He would give mere professors, as we say, and they were only that, full credit for the profession they made. Their own negligence is to be credited for their great disaster, not that the oil was not available, but that they were negligent about it.

W.W. What is the significance of its being a question of the lack of the garment in chapter 22, but the lack of the oil in chapter 25?

J.T. There is only one man lacking the garment in chapter 22. It says, "The king, having gone in to see the guests, beheld there a man not clothed with a wedding garment". It is an exception, it was a very exceptional case. But in chapter 25 half of them are foolish, so that this chapter evidently alludes to a morally later period when the profession had taken on, you might say, unreality; and yet they are accredited with being virgins. Now the wedding garment would correspond, I suppose, with the wise virgins, with the oil, but I think it is a word for us as to our part in the assembly, whether we understand what a wedding garment means, how serious it is to be without one!

J.S. Would the thought of the wedding garment refer to an individual, as in Romans 7, where his body is to be to another?

J.T. Yes, it is not simply that you belong to the bride, but you know what an occasion it is. We have different occasions; an occasion like this, for instance, requires a certain garment; it requires that

I should be very alert and ready to participate in it as obligated to make it profitable. If it be a meeting for prayer, there is another garment needed, more priestly: if it be an assembly occasion, then all are to be intelligent persons, not members of a congregation simply; all are to be intelligent persons knowing what is on hand and knowing what to do. If it develops into an occasion, as it ought to, of real pleasure, and there is One present who has the status of the Bridegroom, He is to radiate over the whole affair. If it be God in the occasion honouring His Son, He is to have to say to what is there, and He discerns whether I am in accord with this great matter; He is honouring His Son and I have to understand that part of the matter. There may be other features, for Luke 14 would mean that the man made a great supper, which would be the celebration of something for himself; it would be God Himself; and so chapter 15 would be God Himself, "It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad" Luke 15:32 -- everybody. But here it is a question of God honouring His Son and of whether I have this wedding garment; it is a marital affair and it must have its reflection in the assembly service. It is the greatest affair really as bringing personality in, how a person is at his best as the bridegroom; that is how the Lord Jesus shines upon us as He takes account of us as the bride.

Ques. In Matthew the bride is not specifically mentioned, is she? Would you say it comes in on the line of the Lord saying in Jeremiah 2:2, "I remember for thee the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals", and then again in Hosea 2:14, "I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness", as He set out in Exodus to do; they were to hold a feast to Jehovah in the wilderness? The bride is absent in Matthew, but it is the guests invited that are in

prominence; is your suggestion that the assembly meets the idea of the guests invited?

J.T. Well, the bride is not formally mentioned, but a wedding feast must comprise her; but the point is that there is a person with ample means to make such an occasion a great one on account of his son; that is the point, it is what he is doing on account of his son -- not on account of the bride, but on account of the son. And it is not exactly the wedding but the feast; that is, all are to have part in it, but it is a wedding affair and therefore is to carry with it the best possible features in the personnel.

J.S. Would it involve more place being found for the passages of love in the Canticles?

J.T. Well, the Song of Songs is the book in the Old Testament for the mutual exchange of feeling and affection between Christ and the assembly, or between Christ and Israel, as the earthly bride.

Ques. Would all this be in happy contrast to the previous chapter? Would this come in on the line of the assembly, the grace of Christ and joyousness in the place the Father has given Him?

J.T. Well, it would be that in the sense that we are in accord with the occasion, not so much our response to Christ's affection as that we see that God is honouring Him, that there is a part in the service in which God honours Him, as there is, of course, a part in which He honours God. He makes much of the Father in John, as we know, but in this parable the point is that the Father makes much of the Son, and those who are guests, ourselves together, are clothed with what is suitable to that, that it is no less a matter than a marriage, it is a wedding feast, no less than that, and the question is whether I am equal to it; that is what we should get hold of, I believe, whether I am equal to that personally, for the King came in. We say, it is the Lord in the beginning of assembly service, and it is, it is

a question of the Lord, but then there is a point in which God has to say to it too, not for His own sake, but for the sake of Christ. He is concerned about that, for there must be the honour of the Son in every relation as the Father's honour. So that it seems as if this particular parable would come in as making room for God to look around to see the guests. I have to say to God in all this; I have to say to Christ too from another point of view, for it is the Lord's supper; but then there is a linking on between the Lord's supper and what attaches to the Father, and it seems the Father and the Son meet, the One honouring the Other; that is, both must be honoured, the One will honour the Other.

W.C.G. Would Psalm 19 apply to honouring the Son? It says, "A tabernacle for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race". Psalm 19:4,5.

J.T. It is a wonderful figure really, but it is to bring out, I think, what we are saying, what the Bridegroom is. What a radiance, what heat, what joy, the sun brings as it rises. It is a remarkable figure as showing the strength of affection in Christ.

W.C.G. What is the idea of the tabernacle for the sun?

J.T. As you say, I suppose it is a figure of Christ, that He has what belongs to Him in a private way. Who can give an account of the sun? Carrying the thought to Christ, it means He has His private relations, coming out of His chamber; there are the secrecies, the secrets connected with Christ's inscrutable relations; but when He comes out in His light, one feature is the effect on the creation. That is how it is in the assembly: the sun, as denoting Christ's affection and relations comes out and beams on us; not simply that He comes, but that He beams upon us because of whence He comes, and the relation He is in. John the baptist rejoiced at His voice,

which is that of the Bridegroom. The Lord as here in His ministry had that voice, the voice of the Bridegroom; in all His services there was the Bridegroom's voice. All did not understand that, but there it was; what was deep down in His heart in all He was doing there was that joyous thought. John the baptist had discernment enough to see that that was the voice, not simply of a great Preacher and Friend and Teacher, even God Himself, but that He was a Bridegroom -- the peculiar touch of that relation.

Ques. Would this suitability of clothing be seen in Psalm 45:14? "She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of embroidery".

J.T. That is right. Then she is all glorious inside. We have first of all the tribute to the king there, "I say what I have composed touching the king. My tongue is the pen of a ready writer". Psalm 45:1. After that you have the queen on his right -- that is a great general abstract thought -- in gold of Ophir; that which is discerned as the full thought; she is a personage of that kind, she is the queen: But when you come down to details in, "Hearken; daughter, and see, and incline thine ear; and forget thine own people and thy father's house: And the king will desire thy beauty; for he is thy Lord, and worship thou him" Psalm 45:10,11, the individual christian comes into the great abstract thought, I think, in that way. And then she is inside in the royal apartments, she comes in raiment of embroidery; she is inside the royal apartments suitably attired, all glorious inside there, suitable to the position.

Ques. Would the type of Mordecai come in, the man whom the king delighted to honour? Would that correspond with your thought of the king making a marriage feast for his son? Mordecai was the outstanding man at the moment, as the son is here.

J.T. That is a good figure, I think. It is the man he delights to honour, but Mordecai was honoured

as the one who had served the king, saved his life; but here it is the case of a man honouring his son, it brings Christ in in a beautiful way and He is honoured by a wedding feast made for Him by His Father, the king being His Father.

Rem. So we want God's thoughts of His Son.

J.T. That is right. He could honour Him in other ways, of course. Mordecai is a type of Christ as He whom God delights to honour; there it was that he went round the city. God has honoured Christ in a variety of ways: He has greatly exalted Him, set Him down at His own right hand far above all principalities and powers and every name that is named, not only in this world but in that which is to come. And in various other ways God honours Him, but this is a peculiar thing into which affection enters, that He is honouring Him by a wedding feast.

Rem. Satisfying the heart of Christ as Man with the affections of the assembly.

J.T. Yes, and satisfying Him with such guests; it is to bring out too that God's grace enters into it, God's wonderful patience with the Jews enters into it, as if God would say, 'This is the very best thing I can devise and. I want you to be there' -- that is what He says to the Jews. John the baptist heard His voice; the Jews ought to have heard it, but they did not. And He says now there is an invitation to ourselves, and the gentiles have come, the wedding feast is furnished with guests, good and evil. The good and evil, of course, is one thought, but the wedding garment covers all that; it alludes to the work of God that fits us for the place.

Ques. Do you suggest that the Spirit of God would make room for all this in His service at the Lord's supper?

J.T. That is what I think we ought to get to. It is right to have the general thought, for God includes

grace in what He has in mind in the parable, He includes the wonderful voice of Christ in His ministry among the Jews, that it was no less than the Bridegroom's voice John the baptist heard. But nevertheless it is a wedding and it runs down to us gentiles, and the solemn fact is that there must be wedding garments; no one can be there without a wedding garment.

Rem. So that all might honour the Son even as they honour the Father.

J.T. Just so, that is how the matter stands that the Father honours the Son and the Son honours the Father.

Ques. What is your thought as to the fact that only the king observes the absence of the wedding garment?

J.T. Well, it is his matter, he is doing it, and it is a solemn thing that God inspects us as we sit down to the Lord's supper; it is something into which honour for Christ enters, and God is concerned about that. It is God's assembly and He is concerned as to all that happens in it, although the earlier part of it refers to the Lord. It is God's matter.

W.C. So does the scrutiny of the King work out at the end?

J.T. Well, it is most solemn; it is not only discipline, but it is eternal punishment. The passage shows we are dealing with eternal things in every sense. How serious our position is; there is nothing optional at all in assembly service; we are having to do with God, whether in the beginning or middle or end of the service: the assembly is God's matter and His eye is upon it in the most scrutinising way. It is true discipline is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11, that we are not to be judged with the world, but then, we may be judged with the world and it is a most solemn thing. We have to do with God.

Ques. In the service of the assembly would the affections of the bride be given effect to, or is it that the Bridegroom is held in her affections?

J.T. It is more the Bridegroom we are dealing with now. God is making a marriage feast for His Son and He is concerned that there should be nothing out of keeping with Him; so in our whole service we are having to do with God.

W.W. Does that raise the question as to how we come together as clothed in features, so that God can appreciate our presence as those that are together?

J.T. Certainly. You do not want to mar the occasion. There are many who sit down to the Lord's supper and go right through the service just as members of a congregation; God has no pleasure in that; He wants the garment.

Ques. Would the garment link with the thought, "With joy and gladness shall they be brought"? Psalm 45:15.

J.T. Quite so, it is a most felicitous state of things, most delightful, it is the best sort of thing, as it were, that God could devise to present in the gospel -- nothing less than that. So there is the voice of the Bridegroom in His teaching; there is a wedding in prospect and the idea is you should come into it. So it is today, the gentiles are brought into it, the wedding is furnished with guests, but there is this scrutiny which goes on, and if is really brought into every service: Am I there suitably, or in a restless way with no interest, merely as a member of a congregation?

Rem. You would stress the personality of the guests.

J.T. Certainly; each is to be intelligent as to the position, what he has been invited to. These functions, as they are called in the world, have a suitable dress for each one, and society people know it and they know what to wear. Why should not we, when

we come to divine things, the greatest possible things, know what to wear, know the suitable attire, and how to take account of the position?

Ques. That is extremely important; it is the assembly of the living God. We have been lax in our appreciation of that.

J.T. I think that is good; it is God's assembly and we are to behave ourselves in it, "that thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God's house, which is the assembly of the living God". 1 Timothy 3:15.

N.K.M. Would what Peter says to Simon Magus be like the man who had not on the wedding garment? He says, "Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God", Acts 8:21.

J.T. A very solemn illustration of what we are speaking of. He had no wedding garment at all; it was a question of his attitude of mind, what his thoughts were, that the Holy Spirit could be bought with money. Think of that, of a man who could say that! So the apostle exposes him, and hence the scrutiny with which we are regarded: He came in to see the guests; there is this infinite scrutiny as to what is going on in my soul as sitting there.

Rem. "Let a man examine himself, and so let him eat". 1 Corinthians 11:28.

J.T. Quite so, "So let him eat"; it really means we are to judge ourselves, disallow all that is unsuitable to the position.

F.S.M. Would the idea of the chaste virgin enter into the thought of the wedding garment? Paul says, "I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ", 2 Corinthians 11:2.

J.T. I think it is parallel; that really belongs, as I am sure you have in mind, to chapter 25, but chapters 22 and 25 run parallel. The man without

the wedding garment is in keeping with those who have no oil; he had not got the Holy Spirit, in other words.

We may now go on to chapter 25, and the apostle tells the Corinthians in the second letter, not in the first, that he had espoused them to one husband; that was in his mind just as in the Lord's mind. The apostle was conveying to them that there was a Bridegroom; he refers to the earlier ministry that he had espoused them to one husband that he might present them as a chaste virgin; that was in his mind, but then the facts showed that the state was not there, that there were rather the characteristics of the foolish virgins among the Corinthians. So that is what we might look at, these ten virgins were professedly believers in early times when defection began to be prevalent; God regards all as virgins, but in a most ironical way shows some are lost sinners shut out forever from the presence of God. So it is all very solemn as to the scrutinising character of this marital matter, how God is concerned about it; so that chastity is a point to be raised now. We may profess to be part of the assembly as espoused, but then what about our affections? Is He supreme in them?

Ques. Would Rebecca illustrate the thought? She is said to be a maiden "very fair in countenance; a virgin, and no man had known her". Genesis 24:16.

J.T. Quite so, she is taken up to represent the thought underlying the assembly; she represents the thought in youthfulness. Abigail is corresponding in type, a person who had been to another, but whose husband is dead; she is an experienced woman, and she is introduced to us as a woman of "good understanding, and of a beautiful countenance". 1 Samuel 25:3. It is not said of Rebecca that she had a good understanding, but she was very comely in all she did, ready to serve even the camels; but Abigail is a woman who

comes in and stands in the breach in a great crisis, and she saved the position and becomes David's wife after her husband is dead. There is not the idea of virginity with her, but experience. That is to say, the saints viewed in the Acts as having been brought in in relation to Israel and all the affections of the saints would be in that connection; they were to be to Another; but, under Paul, that was all given up and Abigail represents the saints viewed as turning their backs on judaism altogether and taking up a position in relation to Christ entirely.

W.C.G. The description of Abigail is very similar to that of David.

J.T. She corresponds -- that is very striking. She had been a wife already, so it is no question now of a chaste virgin, but of good understanding, that we know what to do.

Ques. Is that why Abigail is so often referred to, after she became David's wife as "the wife of Nabal the Carmelite"? 1 Samuel 30:5, 2 Samuel 2:2, 2 Samuel 3:3.

J.T. Yes, "if the husband should die, she is free from the law, so as not to be an adulteress, though she be to another man", Romans 7:3 because the law has settled that matter. Nabal died -- God saw to that -- so Abigail is released to be for David, as in Romans we are to "be to another, who has been raised up from among the dead". Romans 7:4.

Ques. You have in mind the way we arrive at that experimentally?

J.T. Exactly.

Rem. And her affection would be shown by her willingness to wash the feet of the servants of her lord.

J.T. Just so. In the parable of the virgins they all slumbered and slept. God is accrediting them all with the virgin status, but five of them are at the outset classified as foolish virgins, not sinners -- for that is not the point; they are foolish because they

do not avail themselves of what was obviously necessary. It was obviously necessary that if they had torches, which are oil lamps, they needed oil, otherwise of what use were the vessels? So it was obvious they should have looked after that part. It shows the folly of people who are not prepared for what they profess to have in mind, for they professed to be going forth to meet the Bridegroom, yet here is something that is absolutely necessary, and they have neglected it.

Ques. Was the thought of the cry to show that the truth as to the Bridegroom had been neglected or overlooked?

J.T. I think the truth of the Spirit had been overlooked; if we have not the Spirit, we have nothing, however much we may profess -- one is just shut out as a lost sinner.

Ques. Would Achsah be an outstanding example of that? She had a south land, but we will never get on without the Spirit.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. Would what is said to the church in Sardis, "Thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead", Revelation 3:1 fit in?

J.T. I think it does; the one who has not the Spirit does not live; the one who has does live characteristically.

Ques. Are you making a particular application in regard to this matter, not only a general one; not only the virgins viewed as covering the whole profession, but any one of us who may be foolish?

J.T. That is what one would like to do. We are so neglectful and careless, regarding things as optional, as if we had no responsibility in the matter, and here are divine eyes looking into our hearts as to what may be going on there -- the King came in to see the guests. And now the whole position is exposed; these people have not oil, they have not got

the Spirit, and they are shut out. I want to have a suitable attitude of mind. The Scriptures abound with references to this, and they are intended to impress me, and, if I am impressed, my impressions will come out in the assembly. Those impressions are wealth and they become active as we sit together in assembly.

Ques. Is it that without the oil we are not equal to the movements of the Bridegroom?

J.T. I think that is just what it is. If one has not the oil in chapter 25 the Lord comes in and I am not ready for Him.

Ques. There was oil in the lamps of the wise virgins and there were vessels that accompanied the lamps; would you say they suggest reserves?

J.T. Well, the wise virgins were fully furnished. There is no middle ground at all: it is either the wise or the foolish; and the foolish virgins are shut out, and shut out because of their own negligence. There is much negligence and sluggishness in our assembly meetings.

Rem. So that the Lord would honour us with a touch of His presence and that brings all to light.

J.T. It does. It is the Bridegroom's movements that expose everything. It is the King in chapter 22; but it is the Lord's movements that bring to light where we are in chapter 25. Then in Revelation the bride is there and she is in full accord with the Spirit. It is a very fine passage in that sense, what we reach at the present time.

Ques. Do we see in Simeon one who could fittingly take part in the service as giving place to the Holy Spirit?

J.T. That is a good illustration, alluding to Luke 2. The Child is brought in and he is ready for Him; he takes Him in his arms and knows what to say. He came by the Spirit into the temple; he is a spiritual

man; in truth he is a real priest ready for anything of the kind. He knows what to do in the temple.

Ques. Does chapter 25 show how God honours the Spirit, and chapter 22 how God honours the Son, and the wise virgins, in principle, honour the Spirit and provide themselves with the oil?

J.T. Quite so, they are really in accord with the truth of the dispensation. Profession is of no value whatever; it is worse than nothing unless I have the Holy Spirit. We are dependent on the Spirit, and that is what marks the wise virgins; they value the Spirit; they have Him in readiness, as it were.

Ques. What were you going to say as to Revelation?

J.T. Only what has been said: it is a signal tribute to the work of God in the last days, that is, in our times, and we want to be in it, that the bride has come into distinctive evidence. The Lord announces Himself as "the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star" and she, in unison with the Spirit, says, 'Come'. So it is no longer now only the Bridegroom, but the bride herself, and it is in the midst of a dark gloomy state of things that she discerns His voice, and says, Come. The allusion, I think, is to John's gospel and Matthew's gospel: the root of David would be John's gospel; and the offspring, Matthew's gospel, which covers a good deal of ministry we have had on the Lord's own Person and what He is as Man. The assembly characteristically understands; she has good understanding like Abigail; and, as He announces these things, she is with the Holy Spirit and says, Come.

Ques. Is it striking that this immediately follows the thought of testimony in the assemblies? Is that, so to speak, the local gatherings each contributing to the thought of the bride?

J.T. That is the thought exactly, I believe. The seven assemblies were local assemblies and represent the idea of them, and the bride represents the one idea.

Ques. I was wondering whether the first two parables have peculiar reference to the way we sit down together locally, and, as the result of that adjustment, we may form part of the great general thought the Lord is securing for Himself now.

J.T. Quite so. The three great servants who had to do with the Service of God were Moses and David and Solomon, and we see how the idea of the spouse appears in each. In Moses she is brought to him by her father at a particular time: in David, we have Abigail, as we have been saying, according to the description given of her: and in Solomon we have her just in relation to a gentile progeny, not giving us more than the idea of such a thing, but it is the spouse of Solomon for whom a house was built, corresponding to the porch of judgment. That corresponds with what we were saying that the marital idea stands out so prominently in relation to the service of God and it must enter into it now in relation to its present setting.

ADDITION BY THE SAINTS

Luke 1:38 - 40, 46 - 56; Luke 24:30 - 36; Acts 4:23 - 31

What is in mind is to speak about addition, the thought arising from David's exhortation to Solomon that he should add to what had been already accumulated in view of the building of the house of God; that it was to be an accumulation of wealth not only once for all but added to continuously. And so the history of the kings following upon Solomon, and of the prophets, shows that this principle was maintained: there was continuous addition, and no doubt, as this matter is mentioned in our hearing, the desire arises in each lover of Christ and lover of God that he should, at least, add something to what he has found. Of course, each believer is an addition in himself, but that is God's adding. We are told in the Acts of persons being added, but that is not to their credit; what is to their credit is what they added as having been themselves added by God; so while the divine addition is initial as applied to each of us, the addition by the believer is continuous. And it certainly would be a sorry result of any person being added by God that he should live as having added nothing, that one should just be added by God in His sovereignty and pursue his way spiritually inactively, unproductively, unconstructively, leaving only a heap of wood, hay or stubble to be burnt up. Scripture contemplates this, but no true lover of God can contemplate it with anything but the deepest sorrow if it be his case in any sense. We read in the Acts, as I said, of God adding persons, and then Peter who had to do much instrumentally with these additions, tells us that it is as a newborn babe that anyone grows up to salvation by the pure mental milk of the word, and becomes clear of all adverse elements, not only of

those that are outwardly adverse to the truth, but of those in himself that would hinder his growth into salvation. It implies that one is clear and has a free hand, and thus he moves to Christ as a living stone. That is more than divine addition, that is self addition, Christ being the living stone to whom he comes: "Yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up", 1 Peter 2:5 that is self addition. I mean in so far as he moves with Christ, the divine operation takes place at once, for he cannot build himself in: he is being built in as a living stone, as a spiritual house, a holy priesthood -- he belongs to that -- to offer up spiritual sacrifices. He has not only himself, but sacrifices; and not only material sacrifices, which are also valuable in their place, but spiritual ones and these are what I have in mind. Spiritual sacrifices can be traced from Solomon's day onwards; yea, from Exodus 16, the great beginning of the service of God in redemption, we have continuous addition, until the Chief Musician arrives who puts everything in its place, so that even our addition, as well as ourselves, comes under divine control and filling, and hence, as passing off the scene under the will of God, one has left something.

Well now, I want to show from Mary in Luke 1 how this service proceeds; it is in one's being singled out, and every one of us, beloved brethren, has been singled out divinely -- a great and wonderful fact! Mary was separated and qualified for a great purpose; I speak now of her as illustrative, not to set out the great facts of the incarnation, but only to deduce a principle from them. She is taken up on a particular date, the sixth month, and that date has reference to a divine operation in another like her, that is Elizabeth, so that both have a common point of sympathy. Much is said by the angel to Mary which is familiar to us, but it finishes with a date as to Elizabeth, and Mary says, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word".

The angel had said to her, "With God nothing shall be impossible". Luke 1:37. There can be no addition spiritually, dear brethren, save in the acceptance of that initial fact; it is what is possible with God. However I may think of myself as an unlikely person to add to the great testimony that has now moved down for centuries, this word settles everything, "With God nothing shall be impossible". Let no one exempt himself therefore in this great matter. God had wrought with Elizabeth and He had now wrought with Mary; they have a common subject of interest, it is the work of God. They are set in relation to each other also on the principle of date, and these respective operations of God have matured in the most wonderful addition hitherto known, John the baptist, six months before the Messiah. No greater subjects, beloved brethren, could engage mortals or immortals, and they are here set before us; and relatively what may be deduced as applicable to ourselves is also transcendently great. The fact is that we have but little apprehension of the greatness of what we are engaged with; the most advanced of us is hardly equal to handling the great things we have to do with. And yet the lord graciously allows us to have to say to them and encourages us to go on, but with an increasing sense of responsibility that we have finally to give an account and that in the presence of the most scrutinising light, the divine eyes indeed.

So the angel departs as Mary takes the ground of subjection. She said, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word", and she is taken at her word. God loves to trust us, and the less we trust ourselves the more we shall be trusted divinely. God loves to trust us, but then, He knows us and trusts us according to His knowledge of us, not otherwise; He makes no mistakes. The angel departing implies clearly that she can be

trusted, and think, dear brethren, of the stupendous character of the trust. You would have said a legion of angels ought to be around her all the time with such a trust. We might think that, but no -- the angel departed from her. She is left alone; there is nothing said about Joseph coming in here; he has his place. But the stupendous nature of this trust, you might say, requires that all heaven should be around this person, this virgin, a young person, unprotected, left in this world with such a charge -- but the angel departed from her. Need I say, dear brethren, that heaven never lost sight of her, the eye of the Father never lost sight of this distinctive personage. Why then is it said the angel departed? Surely to call attention to her trustworthiness; and that is the point to begin with as to any addition for God, it is the principle of subjection, absolute surrender. "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me", as she says, "according to thy word", and the angel accepts it and departs. It is all with you now, Mary -- as it were; and so it is, dear brethren, that in anything, however small, in which I might wish to add to what there is, the Lord will say, 'It is your matter now'. Well now, what is she going to do? Is she to remain alone to sit on a throne of distinction without a companion? No other person ever had or could have such distinction, only one person could have this distinction through all time or eternity; she had it. Is she to sit on a throne of distinction alone, occupying all of it, and having others come and bow down to her? No, that is not the divine way, nor is it the way of Him of whom she was to be presently the distinguished mother. No, "I am among you", He says, "as he that serveth". Luke 22:27. It is a lowly attitude to take, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word", and what does she do? Well, the angel had been speaking to her about her kinswoman and

about her son. What does this mean? This means that if I get any accession of light from God, He will give me to understand there are others, that I am not alone in this distinction -- there is an Elizabeth, and she makes haste to get to her, she makes haste to get to the hill country where this other distinguished person lives. They are bound up in a common testimony and it is as if Mary were to say, 'I must be there; she will support me and I will support her', and so it was. She arrives: as we are told, she entered into the house of Elizabeth and saluted Elizabeth -- she is worthy of the salutation, as all the saints are. However distinguished I may be, I need the saints, they are worthy of my respect; I shall never love a person if I do not respect him.

So Mary salutes Elizabeth, and the result is a remarkable contribution, a remarkable addition to what was there -- I say to what was there, that is the fact as to Elizabeth. See what results, dear brethren, come out as I link on with my brethren who are, equally with myself, or relatively perhaps with myself, distinguished; see what comes out, what there is with me becomes enlarged, yea, something comes out unheard of before. What brought it out? The presence of Mary. As I visit and link myself on with the brethren, paying them due respect and affection, knowing them as acquainted with them by the Lord Himself, I bring out the very best there is with them, and then in return the very best in me will come out -- there is double addition. In truth, there were three persons now in this pious bond of fellowship in the hill country of Judah. What an environment we are in now; not simply these two great women, but the hill country of Judah. We have to think of the antecedents of Judah, its place in this great thought: it refers to the divine claims, the service of God, for, when Israel came out of Egypt, Judah was God's sanctuary

-- remarkable fact! And now we are in the very environment of it, and it is coming to light in these remarkable persons. They are in the hill country maintaining remarkable spiritual elevation, so that an unborn babe joins the fellowship. Is it not so, dear brethren, that the most unperfect amongst us, as we may call them, in such a holy state of things, such addition as this, that they too may act? Is it not possible for even the feeblest formation in a locality to be affected as a spiritual addition comes in? There is a general movement, the truth of the body comes out, for this is what it is; it is a question of the delicate means of communication so that the service of God goes on in a marvellous, you might say a miraculous, way. But how marvellous it is, and all through the voice of the mother of our Lord. It is the voice of Judah, it is his voice, you might say, penetrating that mother, the tender mediums, the fine mediums spiritually, so that the voice of Judah, "Hear, Lord, the voice of Judah", Deuteronomy 33:7 affects Elizabeth; it affects the unborn babe, so that there is a precious circle, dear brethren, of fellowship, and all the outcome of one who knows how to act, she has something; hence what you find is that Mary's addition now comes to light. Her presence surely was an addition in the hill country: there was no more distinguished person in the universe. She made haste to get there, she is there, and now there is a result, but she has her addition, a mature one, not one springing up at the moment, for it is not said the Spirit came upon her -- it is rather a mature one. I do not go over the words of it, but anyone who does, anyone who followed them as I read them, will see that it is the product of a person who has learnt how to distinguish her inwards, as in Romans we are taught to analyse the different faculties and organs of affection functioning; she says her soul magnifies the Lord and her spirit

rejoices in God her Saviour. It is what He is doing, it is a question of God; she had become subject to His work and she knew it, and this is the holy product, the holy addition, as I have spoken of it, that we have in the hill country of Judah. It is a holy, elevated fellowship, dear brethren, and any of us, however feeble, who pursues the line indicated, has reached the same result, that is, leaving an addition.

Then in the last chapter we have two persons of another character; there are a great company of them at the present time -- I mean as they were before the Lord revealed Himself to them, they were wanderers. It has come before us today that the children of God are scattered abroad; those known to us, dear brethren, are but a tithe of the number, and the divine promise alluded to already is, I will gather others. Satan, the wolf, has scattered; God is gathering. The Lord Jesus died "not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad", John 11:52. Gather them together into one! What a thought of unity that is! It is not simply christians in profession, but the children of God, real souls. Now these two persons are of that class and they are being gathered. It is no doubt exemplary, like gathering goes on today; every one of us here has, I suppose, experienced something of it, the gathering together of the children of God into one by the great Shepherd of the sheep who died for that very purpose that we should not be scattered abroad but gathered together into one. It is a perfect matter. And so they are amenable to the Lord's conversation with them; in fact He joins them. There is nothing haughty about them, no turning away from this stranger. Who is He? An unknown person to them. "Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?". Luke 24:18.

Some person might come in this manner to such wanderers and they would not wish to hear him, so that the example of these two is to be noted; they are listening, and the more they listen the more they hear -- the most wonderful exposition of Scripture. Surely as moment after moment passed in this journey their souls must have been affected -- Who was this? Never man spake like this Man. And so it is, dear brethren, if we listen; and, if there is a wanderer here, I would say this to you, Do not despise any one who seems to be a stranger and ignorant of religious matters, give heed, and you may find that he knows more than the ancients. That is how it stands: unlikely persons know more than all the teachers at the present time. Hence they say later, "Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way?". Let no one here be haughty and turn away from one who may seem to him to be an ignoramus as to religious matters, as to what is current in the different convocations and among the great dignitaries of the churches. Do not turn away from him, he may have a message for you. And so they became more and more interested. I can understand their looking at each other, Did we ever hear such words as these? How often it happens, and souls are just affected and bowed inwardly and restored. Oh, what a need there is for restoration, dear brethren. The field is strewed with derelicts who have turned away, turned a deaf ear to those who would speak words of truth to them. So, as I said, one could imagine these two saying to one another, Who could this be?

Now the Lord made as though He would go further, but they constrained Him, and that is the word. Do not let a person go away in a hurry if he says something that causes your heart to burn, get him into the house, let him say more. They say, "Abide with us": Luke 24:29 he is worthy of it a heaven-sent

messenger to restore your soul. Zacchaeus was glad to receive the Lord into his house; these were too, and the Lord was persuaded to go in, and He broke the bread, as we learn here. "He took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them". You say, that is peculiar entertaining; why did they not give to Him? But no, He gave to them; He is the Head of the house, He is the house-father, He is supreme in the house of God. One has likened it to a guest chamber in the house of God. The Lord of glory -- how fitting it is that He should direct and control. And He is the entertainer as well as the guest. What impressions He is casting around us, and these hearts are ready to receive them now. And then we are told their eyes were opened. You say, I wonder how it was I did not discern before -- how often one has said that to oneself, Why did I not see it before? Why? It is well to ask oneself. Some moral defect, it may be. I believe therein often lies the reason why we do not see. But still, their eyes were opened; it was divinely ordered that everything should happen as it did happen; it is a perfect picture of recovery. No one can portray things like the Spirit of God. It is not only a question of the recovery, but of the One who does it -- how perfect He is! Though you might think you are entertaining Him, He gives you to understand He is entertaining you, and everything is His; the bread they gave Him was His -- it is all His.

Now their eyes are opened -- I want to come to this addition. They have something now to carry back to Jerusalem that they never could have had except through this experience. And so it is with anyone here tonight who is ready to listen to the divine speaking, that you carry something back to the assembly. It is your place; why should you be away, a stranger to it? They returned the same hour and they came to the city. Did they know

where He resided? Did they know where John resided? It appears as though they had looked about a little. They found the eleven; one is not worth much who does not learn to find something. There are those of us who think that everything must be found for us. Indeed it is a truth that there are many of us who are just paupers, living on the brethren spiritually. Not that I would deny them that; not that I would deny anybody anything I could give them spiritually; but why not find something for yourself? They "found the eleven ... and them that were with them", that is, they are all included in the title. They sought out and found, and let me assure anyone here tonight that this is the principle. Do not sit down and wait for everything to be found for you; move a little and find what there is. Find those who maintain the rights of Christ; morally it is one of the greatest finds to find those who maintain the rights of Christ in the confusion of christendom: they are to be found -- thank God! I know nothing surer than the fact that I know those who maintain the rights of Christ; I have found them. This means I look about for them. But then they have found something, not just to talk about it in a fleshly way like Gehazi. We desecrate things we have by telling brethren as information what we have. The thing is to go to the place where they maintain the rights of Christ; put it there, it ceases to be yours peculiarly; it belongs peculiarly there now, it belongs to the brethren. To deny them what I have is unrighteous, it belongs to them. So they went to the company and they were just where and how they should be -- gathered together, and they were saying what they should say: they were saying, "The Lord is risen indeed" -- there was no question about it -- and He had appeared to Simon. And now these two say what they know. I suppose we may assume that this great fact about Simon was

carried into the company by Simon himself; he certainly added something. I can see him enter the door. Erstwhile he would have slunk away in shame that he had denied his Master, but now he says, It is all settled; I have seen the Lord, He saw me, He made it His business to see me. I should like to say to Simon, What did He say to you? How did He look? -- for all that enters into it. It was common property; He had appeared to Simon -- it is a question of grace. If He appeared thus to Simon, He would appear to any other poor sinner. Now these two have something; they are leaving something behind them; they are the only two who had this experience, and one might say that these experiences are peculiar to any person who has any one of them. The two had theirs; Peter only had his experience; Mary hers; Elizabeth hers, and so forth. Well, the two had the same experience. I would regard them as perfect testimony; they saw the same thing at the same time, both of them. They marvelled at it, they were moved by it. The way back from Emmaus must have been much easier than going the other way. You know it is so, "The way of transgressors is hard" Proverbs 13:5, even if he has only one sin to confess; if he has his back to the Lord, he has a hard road. But now the Lord would appear to them, not simply as He appeared to Simon; you might say He appeared to them assembly-wise in the breaking of bread, a great thought already introduced into the testimony, now it is being verified: He is made known to them in the breaking of bread. Well, my point is, dear brethren, that by their confession they made an addition enabling Christ to come in, and that is a great matter. If I, in my little way, tend to create a condition into which Christ can come, I have done something, and it is within my reach; it is within the reach of every one of us to create a condition suitable to Christ. The Lord Himself, we are

told, stood in the midst of them as they were saying these things.

Well, the final word is just that we have two more sent persons. Not two prospective mothers, not two straying ones restored now, but two great servants of Christ, actively engaged and suffering. Can they not add? They have been added; no two men perhaps are more interesting than these two, Peter and John. They say, "Look on us", Acts 3:5 and now they are sufferers for Christ. They had served successfully, they had added a great convert, and not only is he converted but he is holding them, he is in the fellowship, and he is a real addition to the fellowship. He is not promiscuously among three thousand; he is one person secured by these two men, a peculiar result of their service. He is with them, and they are suffering for Christ in their service. I speak now to those of us who are serving in greater or lesser measure, and, dear brethren, it is not a question of making a name at all, but rather of adding to the mutual state of things, for that is what happened; it is a mutual state of things. These two men find their own company, we are told, as released by the authorities and they tell the company what had happened and what the chief priests had said. So the result is that when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord and said, "Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is". The two great servants then in active service returning with grace -- morally and literally, one result was they merged in the company, and, in merging, they added to the company: the company rejoiced by what they saw. The addition is a levitical addition, if you understand me. The minister certainly ought to be able to add by what be is ministerially to what he is in the company. Think of these men speaking together, there is Peter, there is John, what lowly

men they are, how different from the high priests, how different from the doctors of the law; how they sit down as amongst us, for those who lift up their voice are not simply Peter and John, it is the company. One might assume that neither Peter nor John did this; it is a question of the company, of what is mutual, that I can merge with the brethren and add to them through merging; it is a great levitical addition. Every young brother in the place would be affected that these great servants who are so successful, such sufferers too, can come and sit down amongst us and tell us just simply what had been said, and all know it and they lift up their voice to God and call Him Master or Despot. It is a question of humility, it is a question of an addition, dear brethren, brought in levitically that produces humility. It is a very unusual address to Jehovah, the word is Master or Despot, as the margin reads. As much as to say, Peter and John are not conveying to the company that they are doing great things, it is that they are, bondmen, that God is doing great things and He is going to do great things, and that without Him there are no great things. And so their prayer is to Him as a Despot and they appeal to Him as the Creator and how everything under His hand goes well, and it is all a question of His holy Servant Jesus. (This is a word that may be rendered 'child', but it is really 'servant' -- "thy holy servant Jesus".) It is through Him they are acting now; you see, dear brethren, what a holy savour for those who minister to spread abroad in the company! that He is addressed as an Owner of slaves, for after all, what is it but that? We are amongst the slaves and He is doing things by us, -- but it is through His holy Servant Jesus. They recorded what happened in Jerusalem and then they say, "to do whatever thy hand and thy counsel had determined before should come to, pass". And then they say,

"Now, Lord, look upon their threatenings, and give to thy bondmen with all boldness to speak thy word, in that thou stretchest out thy hand to heal, and that signs and wonders take place through the name of thy holy servant Jesus", Then, "when they had prayed, the place in which they -- were assembled shook, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and spoke the word of God with boldness", I think you can follow what I mean there, dear brethren, from the ministerial or levitical side, addition coming in with the attitude of those who serve; others will follow. There is only a few years and every one of us who is serving now will have gone; if the Lord continues His testimony others are to follow. What better addition can I leave than an addition proper to a levite that others may emulate and take on, and the Lord will help in it, as He has helped others of us; and hence it is no longer Peter and John that are being used, but the apostles, all gainers by what the apostles Peter and John brought in at this particular time.

GOD'S ASSEMBLY

1 Corinthians 1:1 - 3; 1 Corinthians 11:17 - 22; 1 Corinthians 14:23 - 25; 1 Corinthians 12:28

J.T. What is in mind is to consider the assembly, that is, how it is employed as such as seen in this letter. There are other scriptures bearing on the subject, but these four are selected to show: firstly, the general thought, that it is God's assembly in any given place; then, secondly, that it is employed locally for the service of God, inclusive of the celebration of the Lord's supper; and, thirdly, that it is viewed as in chapter 14, come together in all its members, that is in each person belonging to it, for spiritual ministry, and that it is itself to be ministered to and that this ministry is to be edifying; and then, fourthly, that the gifts are set in it according to chapter 12, implying its universal bearing. This will lead, I believe, to our seeing perhaps more clearly than before that, even as used in the celebration of the Lord's supper, it is still God's assembly, and therefore the thought of God in the sense of ownership and control attaches to it, even whilst the Lord's supper is being celebrated, for, as to the very subject of the Lord's supper, the apostle says, "Do ye despise the assembly of God?". Their conduct implied that they despised the assembly of God in what they were doing. So that, although the celebration of the Lord's supper is limited to the dominical idea, as the passages in chapters 10 and 11 which relate to it show, the thought of God is not to be ignored. Is what I have said clear, do you think?

F.W. In that way is it the service of God right through?

J.T. Yes, it all enters into the service of God, the Lord's supper included.

Ques. Will you say a little more what you mean as to the assembly being employed in this epistle?

J.T. Well, it is conveyed, I think, in the verses read from chapter 11, "When ye come therefore together into one place, it is not to eat the Lord's supper", meaning that they were not conducting themselves rightly because of the way they acted; it should have been the Lord's supper; that was the intent. They were to come together in assembly to break bread, to celebrate the Lord's supper; and so in Acts 20:7, "we being assembled", it says "to break bread", that is, the thing itself is necessary now. It had been done in houses, according to Acts 2, but now it necessitates the assembly; the assembly indeed is employed by the Lord, and singing in it is referred to in Hebrews; and it also has the place of the house of God in Hebrews, "Whose house are we, if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end" Hebrews 3:6, so that it takes on the character of the sanctuary. Do you think that is right?

Rem. Yes. I was thinking perhaps we have looked at the assembly more as the place of our enjoyment, instead of seeing what it is for God, as you speak of it, to be employed for Him.

J.T. Yes, and in that respect I suppose we should not overlook the Lord's first word as to it: "I will build my assembly" Matthew 16:18, He says, as if He would use it thus.

P.L. Is it the vessel for God's testimony as to His rights over the earth: "The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof" Psalm 24:1, among other thoughts?

J.T. It is the vessel He has now -- quite so, as of old He had Israel. Only that the thought of the service of God was brought down to a special family, Aaron and his house and the Levites; they had

a material tabernacle, but it is the same idea; the assembly takes the place, not only of the tabernacle but of Israel itself. The primary thought of Israel was that it was to be a nation of priests and God was to have it in that peculiar way among the nations; now He has the assembly.

F.I. Do you mean in the Lord's supper there is a service that goes on in a dual way, that is, what is due to God and what is due to the Lord, at the same time?

J.T. Well, 'at the same time' brings it down to detail, which is worthy of consideration. The dominical part, as we rightly speak of it, implies that it is in regard of the Lord Himself, that there is something that relates to Himself in it. Some of us lately were speaking of a certain king making a marriage for his son. The king took control of the marriage feast; there is nothing at all about the son appreciating it there but what is kept in mind is what the king did for his son. I think, in a general way, that is applicable to what we are speaking of; it is God's assembly and He honours His Son in it. But then the celebration of the Lord's supper has a special place. It will not go on in the world to come, as far as we can see; it refers only to the period of the Lord's absence from this world; it is necessitated by that indeed, so it is not a continuous thought. The service of God will go on eternally, but the Lord's supper is a special thing that involves relations between Himself and His own, the assembly itself, during the period of His absence: so it is to be considered in that light and therefore it is a dominical thought, whereas in general the service is God's, God honours the Son and the Son honours the Father, for the Lord has laid down that the Son must be honoured as the Father is honoured. So the great feast in Matthew 22 would point, in a general

way, to how God honours Christ, but the assembly is the sphere of it. Do you think that?

F.I. Yes. What you have in mind is the great thought of assembly service; what is due to the Lord will uphold this.

J.T. It has in mind that part, and is provisional, only applying to the period of the Lord's absence from this world, but the Lord's service will go on millennially and eternally.

P.L. Is that special part more inward and spiritual, hence "My assembly"? If it is God's assembly, is that God's rights in relation to His service and testimony in a more public way?

J.T. I think He has rights in it; it is put in that way, He has purchased it. It is a peculiar expression, "purchased with the blood of his own" Acts 20:28, the blood of Christ; but it has cost Him that, and He has rights in it and He implies it here. If He wishes to honour His Son in it, He can do that freely and He does. Another thing that is provisional is the house of God, the idea referring to the earth; it will not apply eternally as far as I see. We have the Father's house, but the house of God refers to what we get in Israel and is continued on now and will be, as Ezekiel shows, in the millennium too. So there are provisional ideas attaching to the assembly, that is, ideas that are not permanent, and the Lord's supper is included in these. I think it is worth while viewing the matter in this way, so that we may have suitable thoughts as we eat the Lord's supper, that a wider circle is involved, not called into activity, but about to be, and intelligence enables us to act rightly in each position.

F.I. Does the primary thought of the assembly stand in relation to God, but He employs it to honour His Son?

J.T. Yes, He honours His Son down here in Matthew 22 and in Luke 14, too.

Ques. Have you in mind that this relates to a locality particularly in this provisional setting you are speaking of?

J.T. It does, that is how it stands, I think. That is why I selected this epistle for it affords more light, I think, as to the assembly and the use made of it divinely than any other. The more one looks into it the more remarkable are the number of references to it, not only the word 'assembly', but the body of Christ and the temple of God; and indeed it is in that verse called "the Christ", meaning it is an anointed vessel here, as He was for God.

E.G. The first thought as to the tabernacle was that God should dwell among them.

J.T. That is quite true. In the antitype that is seen in Ephesians, but it is the primary thought of God; primary thoughts are generally thrown out first in scripture and details follow.

P.H. Will you say another word as to the Lord's singing in the assembly in Hebrews 2?

J.T. I only mentioned it there just now because of the question of the Lord using it coming up, how it is used, that that is one of the uses made of it, He sings in the assembly; but in itself that leads us on to the final thought in the assembly, that is not a provisional thing, it is what we shall enjoy finally.

P.H. I thought you were referring to the use made of the assembly by Christ just as you were referring to the use made of the assembly by God for the celebrating of His Son -- did I understand you to say that that goes into eternity -- Hebrews 2?

J.T. I believe that is the first note after the Lord Jesus arises from amongst the dead, "I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises" Hebrews 2:12; that is a final thought, a primary and final thought.

Ques. Does that not belong to the universal position now, but what we are considering at the moment is the local setting?

J.T. It does. I thought, in order to understand the subject, we ought to take it as it is here. 1 Corinthians does not go as far as that; it is very initial but very essential.

A.W.R. Does that emphasise the greatness of the vessel of praise in Hebrews 2?

J.T. It does. Our first consideration is what the assembly is as seen in the first scripture read -- the assembly of God which is in Corinth. It is seen throughout from this point of view and is indeed in one passage ranged alongside the Jew and the gentile, so that it is very specifically the public side of the assembly that is in mind.

Rem. In Corinth it takes account of all that were in the place as over against it.

J.T. That is obvious; not simply all the Lord's people in Corinth, but the assembly of God -- the Jew, the gentile and the assembly of God -- a known public thing there; a most important thing to keep before us, because it is what God has as over against what man has. The title "the Christ" applied to it in chapter 12 would mean it is anointed as Christ was anointed here in testimony.

Ques. Do you not get a cluster of beautiful thoughts suggested in Psalm 74:2, "Remember thine assembly, which thou hast purchased of old, which thou hast redeemed to be the portion of thine inheritance, this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt"?

J.T. A very rich allusion to what we are speaking of, but going further really than this epistle: it brings in mount Zion. You might think he was alluding to all Israel, and in a way he is, but he is linking up in his mind the more spiritual side of the

position, mount Zion; that is where the whole matter lay.

Ques. Is the apostle concerned that the assembly might be available locally in a right state for the Lord's use?

J.T. Yes, that is in mind. They were to purge out the old leaven; then he says, "according as ye are unleavened" 1 Corinthians 5:7 -- they are held fundamentally to be for God.

Reverting to what has been quoted from Psalm 74, the psalms are very rich in allusions to what we have been speaking of. Take any of the three great holy convocations; there were seven, but three are selected in Deuteronomy, that is, the feast of the passover, the feast of Pentecost and the feast of tabernacles, I think in the reference in the psalm what God had on any of those occasions would be in mind. If we view them abstractly and assume that they were just as God would wish them to be, that the people came up in holy separation to God, full of Himself, full of praise and full of reverence for Himself and love to one another, what He would have at any given time in Jerusalem on any such occasion! That would be Israel, that would be the assembly that He had.

Ques. Would not that bring to pass an exercise to be constantly living, as it were, in the enjoyment of communion with God as each one composing the assembly in any locality?

J.T. The males came up before God in Deuteronomy. It was from the divine point of view a very great matter, and not one was to be empty. So you can see the myriads of Israel as they went up, how pleasing they were to God even in going up, what joy He had in His people, joying over them with singing. Well now, we ought to be able to reach such a thought in our localities, bringing it down to any locality, and this whole matter is God's, He has

had it in mind and it has now come about, and this epistle would show that is dominical, it is the Lord. Divine authority is seen in the Lord, in Jesus, so that we have formally stated in this epistle, "There are gods many and lords many, yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him", 1 Corinthians 8:6. So that the initial part of the service is the lordship of Christ, He has His own matter between Him and His saints, and the assembly too, for the bread denotes it; He has His own part with us, and we recognise that it is His part, it is the Lord's supper. It is a provisional matter whilst He is away, but it runs into the great matter of the service of God; that is a primary and eternal thought.