"WHO IS THIS?"

Romans 8:14, 15; Colossians 3:10, 11; Song of Songs 3:6; Song of Songs 8:5

J.T. I thought that the passages in the Canticles illustrate somewhat the passages in the New Testament. The verses in Romans point to the leading of the Spirit, and involve the action of the Spirit as we come together in assembly; so that the assembly is seen moving, so to speak, in her own power, the Spirit being the power, but viewed as in herself. Then Colossians points to Christ leading, answering to the second scripture read in the Canticles; she comes up leaning upon her beloved. The passage in Colossians says in the new man "Christ is everything": He is everything. We reach a point where we are, as it were, full; that we are, for the moment, shut up to Him. Scope is to be given for the working out of this in assembly service. So that the idea of His leading comes in, for if He is everything, He is also a leader. It has often been observed that Colossians scarcely notices the Spirit. It does notice and mention the Spirit -- "your love in the Spirit", (chapter 1: 8), but Christ, who is everything, is what is in mind. Romans makes a great deal of the Spirit. In chapter 5: 5 we have Him shedding abroad in our hearts; in chapter 8 He is mentioned; indeed it is remarkable how frequently He is mentioned in that chapter, having in mind that it is the state of the saints. The state of the saints is to be marked by spirituality, the Spirit having His place.

If the brethren have followed my remarks, perhaps we might proceed, beginning with the passage in Romans 8, and linking it on with Song of Songs 3, where the feminine personage in the song is seen coming up out of the wilderness, without any external support

mentioned, but fully furnished so far as it goes. The passage would correspond in the types with Numbers 21, where instead of the tabernacle being the direct guidance, the Spirit is guiding and leading; the Spirit is fully recognised, so that they move on steadily from point to point, no longer wandering in the wilderness.

J.R.H. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God", Romans 8:14. How would you bring that in in the wilderness?

J.T. Well, that comes in after Numbers 21 in the types, forming a junction with the ark in the book of Joshua, and with Colossians in the antitype. Sonship proper belongs to the land, but the Spirit of it comes in in the wilderness, I think. But the Spirit is to be understood before the passage read in Romans; it is to be understood in chapter 5 and, indeed, in the early part of chapter 8. The question is the state of the saints.

R.A.L. We sing in the fourth hymn, 'Now with love's treasure our spirits are freighted'. (Hymn 4) Does that suggest the work of the Spirit in our souls in the power in which we begin the morning meeting?

J.T. Quite so. Our spirits are freighted with it. It is a question of the state of the saints, for the early part of the assembly service is left as our part. We come together to do something, but it is in the power of the Spirit. We are never seen other than in the power of the Spirit.

E.P. You speak of the people no longer being guided by the tabernacle after Numbers 21. Would you mind saying a little more about that?

J.T. Well, the tabernacle from the time it was anointed, when the glory entered, was to be a guide. The movements of the people were determined by its movements. You will remember that at the end of Exodus, the people were to move as the tabernacle moved. "And the cloud covered the tent of meeting,

and the glory of Jehovah filled the tabernacle. And Moses could not enter into the tent of meeting, for the cloud abode on it, and the glory of Jehovah filled the tabernacle. And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel journeyed in all their journeys. And if the cloud were not taken up, then they did not journey until the day that it was taken up. For the cloud of Jehovah was on the tabernacle by day, and fire was in it by night, before the eyes of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys", Exodus 40:34 - 38. It points to what is presented to us objectively in the way of instruction and assembly formation.

E.P. Would it correspond at all to the Lord being present here on earth, then leaving the disciples dependent on the Spirit? I was thinking of the disciples in the Acts being left, the Lord having established them in a way, and then leaving them.

J.T. Going up, you mean? Yes, quite so. Therefore, henceforth all would hinge on what transpired in the way of assembly formation, and in the way of devotion to what we get at Pentecost as, for instance, chapter 10. Right through the Acts the saints were governed by the movement of the testimony. Of course, Numbers brings that out more than Exodus. Exodus gives us the general idea, the glory being in the tabernacle. The guidance was in that connection. Numbers gives us more detail as to the taking down of the tabernacle, and its being carried and set up again, involving movement and change of encampments. There were a great many encampments. Each encampment had in mind some thought, and the people were to observe it.

J.R.H. Would you say the pillars of smoke were connected with the encampments?

J.T. I would think they were. They would be the smoke of the sacrifices. Pillars of smoke would

mean they were formed in things. They rose up steadily.

G.M. And there would be constant exercise. The smoke would speak of that.

J.T. Yes. I suppose it would suggest sacrifice, that is out of love, Godward, so that Romans begins with God's love shed abroad in our hearts; and then in chapter 8 it contemplates our love for God -- "all things work together for good to those who love God", Romans 8:28. I think the pillars of smoke would indicate the love they had for God, and the sacrifices they offered.

C.A.M. It would be the Spirit's comment on it -- in the Song of Songs, the section that we read; and then that section from verses 6 to 11 does not exactly form part of the conversation between the king and the bride; it was rather a sort of commentary by the Spirit.

J.T. It is a view -- something contemplated, as looking at the movements. "Who is this?" It is a question asked. "Who is this, she that cometh up from the wilderness like pillars of smoke, perfumed with myrrh and frankincense, with all powders of the merchant?" She is described. Who is she? Her history, of course, is in Egypt, and were we to go by the prophets, we would say she has been sinning all the time, from the time she was in Egypt, but as she is identified with the Spirit of God, who is there with her, there was this view. She is coming up out of the wilderness, and there is no external support.

Moses is not in evidence; he was earlier. It is more the power that is within in the type.

S.McC. Would this view, these graces, suggest what is acquired rather than what is put upon her?

J.T. I think they are accredited to her. They are, as it were, an integral part of the position. They are the distinguishing marks. Who is this, that cometh up with these distinguishing marks? I think they

allude to what is very creditable. You might say it somewhat corresponds with Balaam's view. He saw them in a somewhat similar sense. There was nothing discreditable; everything was creditable. God caused him to see her. He is a man who has his eyes opened -- not an ordinary man, but a man with his eyes opened, seeing the vision of the Almighty; that is, seeing things as God sees them. God is entitled to look at us abstractly; that is, taking account only of what is of Himself in us.

J.W.D. Would you link this abstract view on with the first part of the morning meeting?

J.T. I think we might see that, the place the Spirit has, which is part of the position. It is not external, although the anointing is external. It is more the view of Numbers 21; they had drunk and moved immediately, and steadily from point to point in the right direction. I think that is what we ought to keep in mind, so that all these figures here -- this smoke -- as we come out of our houses in the morning to approach the assembly, these features are to be seen. They are seen, of course, concretely as we sit down together in assembly. God is entitled to look at us in that way, what we are in relation to the Spirit. Romans 8 enlarges on what the Spirit is in us. First we have the righteous requirement of the law fulfilled, and then the mind of the Spirit is life and peace; and several others -- some dozen references to the Spirit in the chapter all pointing to a state that is in keeping with the first verses, that God has condemned sin in the flesh; that it is out of sight, that it is viewed as ignored. It is the Spirit now, and these marks are, therefore, the result of the Spirit. First, I think, is unselfishness or love for God in the volume of sacrifices, the smoke of the sacrifices. The church is characteristically sacrificial.

Christ in John 1 is viewed as sacrificial by John the baptist, and as He walked, He is viewed also sacrificially,

that is as the Lamb. The Lamb is sacrificial, and I think that that runs into the assembly. Sacrifice marks us.

C.A.M. After Numbers 21 and after Balaam's vision comes that special household burnt-offering, morning and evening. They did not have that before, I suppose.

J.T. No, that comes in in chapter 28, quite so. First we have, after the brazen serpent and the springing well, the steady movement of the people towards the land and Balaam's view, as if God would give us a right view so that we might look at them abstractly. Moses in Deuteronomy looks at them in that way. Moses does what God is entitled to do, to look at us entirely according to what the Spirit has effected in us. Well, if we sit down in the assembly, God would help us to view things abstractly.

J.W.D. It would be a wonderful release to the work of God amongst us.

J.T. That is just what it will be. John's epistle helps us, too, but Balaam has no desire to justify the people, but he is prepared to do it as one who has his eyes open, who had a vision of the Almighty.

H.B. Would it be helpful to bring in Numbers 24:1 - 5, "And Balaam saw that it was good in the sight of Jehovah to bless Israel, and he went not, as at other times, to seek for enchantments, but he set his face toward the wilderness. And Balaam lifted up his eyes and saw Israel dwelling in tents according to his tribes; and the Spirit of God came upon him. And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor saith, and the man of opened eye saith, He saith, who heareth the words of God, who seeth the vision of the Almighty, who falleth down, and who hath his eyes open: How goodly are thy tents, Jacob, and thy tabernacles, Israel!"

J.T. Quite so. There is a reference there, perhaps we might look at it a moment in chapter 24: 4, he

stresses very much his vision, and how he was affected. That is, God affected him in spite of himself, so that he sees them from God's point of view. The Spirit of God does that for us now; He affects us in spite of ourselves. Romans 7 enables us to distinguish the working of the flesh, and we learn how God condemned it in the early part of chapter 8, enabling us to see things as they should be seen.

R.S. The devil seems to be very active in the morning meeting. Our minds are often very wandering, and thus totally unworthy of the occasion. Is this required on that account?

J.T. Quite so, there is not one but would admit that. We need the power of God to fix our minds first of all on the order and beauty of Israel, and then on Christ as we see Him in Colossians.

W.L. Is that why the leading is looked at in an individual way -- "as many as are led"? We need to come to this thought on an individual platform.

J.T. Well, I suppose so. We have already had it intimated that sonship comes in late in the service of the assembly, but it is only to make a link with the Spirit; for the Spirit's action begins in Romans 5, and has considerable authority before we come to chapter 8: 14.

C.A.M. This matter of the order of the saints and having a sense of how wonderful it is, is all taken for granted as we go on to Colossians; although I suppose Paul was dependent on the information from Epaphras, he realised what was existent in Colosse.

J.T. "Your order", you mean?

C.A.M. Yes.

J.T. I think that is the link. It links on with Romans and Corinthians. Corinthians, of course, is the orderly setting, so that Romans and Corinthians enter into Balaam's prophecy. It is a wilderness scene. Balaam comments on the order, like cedars by the waters, like aloes of the Lord's planting.

Corinthians runs on with that thought into Colossians where it is "rejoicing and seeing your order", chapter 2: 5. That is the pleasure that the eye sees -- not joying and knowing it, but seeing it -- the pleasure the eye has in divine order among the saints.

C.A.M. If it was not regarded it would spoil what the Lord is stressing.

J.T. The link with Romans, Corinthians and Colossians is very striking as applicable to assembly service; the place the Spirit has in Romans, and then the place that order has in Colossians. Christ is made so much of personally in the epistle, the Spirit made so little of (I mean as to mention). It is rather the effect of the Spirit that is in mind in Colossians, so that the apostle has pleasure in looking at that.

"Rejoicing and seeing your order, and the firmness of your faith in Christ". That makes room for chapter 3, which we read, where Christ is all. He is everything. Well, if He is everything, He will be leader. We will understand that every function is His at each particular phase of our assembly service.

A.H.P. Do you think what the queen of Sheba saw when she came to see the wisdom of Solomon would correspond with Colossians in that respect?

J.T. Very good. "There was no more spirit in her". She saw the externals. She had no part in them. It is what she saw. The point here is what is seen. "Who is this, she that cometh up?"

J.W. "God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn", Numbers 24:8.

Would that apply?

J.T. That alludes to the Spirit. Romans 8 would indicate the unicorn strength.

J.W.D. Do you mean that we are conscious as we sit down together of the inward spiritual power, the Spirit's presence with us?

J.T. That is what I think. Paul stresses it in the Corinthians. The Spirit's place in the assembly in

Romans is more individual. But we realise it as we sit down together. There is the strength of a unicorn, and the shout of a king. Balaam alludes to these matters; and really and truly it is only that side of the truth that makes our position a tenable one, a legal one, so to speak, an undeniable one as of God. That is, not simply the claims that we put in, but the fact that there are these things in some degree. There is the order, and then there is the unicorn strength, and the shout of a king.

J.W.D. That is to say, as I sit down, I am entitled to forget my connection with the flesh, sinful flesh, and take account of myself as linked with all others in the possession of the Spirit of God.

J.T. That is right, so that "Ye are not in flesh but in Spirit, if indeed God's Spirit dwell in you", Romans 8:9.

J.R.H. That would have a greatly moving effect on our spirits as we sit together.

J.T. Indeed it would. Anyone present who is not part of us -- if God is working in him -- will see it. It is John's way of establishing the truth, by quoting the Lord's remarks and the remarks of others to exercise souls. "Come and see" -- "Come and see". That is really the final test as to where God is, and what is of God. One comes and sees these marks.

R.S. When you speak about our state, is this just now what you have in mind as to sitting down and making room for the Spirit, and not allowing flesh, or workings of the flesh, as being in it? Is that what you mean by state?

J.T. Quite so. Romans teaches us that we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit -- that state, a state consequent on the action of God really, the confirmation of the apostle's own conclusions: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh), dwelleth no good thing", he says, and that the victory, the deliverance and the thanksgiving is through Christ. "I thank God

through Jesus Christ our Lord", he says, "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God". That is, he has arrived in his soul history at self-conscious ness. He is conscious of himself in the true sense of the word, a man delivered in his mind, and yet in power by the Spirit; but in his mind, through the analysis of the flesh, he is able to pronounce on it and name it, and now he says, I am free to do God's law. "I myself with the mind serve God's law". That is not simply the ten commandments. It is a characteristic word, whatever it may be, and God's law must rule me. Well, if I sit down in the assembly on that line my order will be right; I will not be disorderly in my part in the assembly. Then God comes in in chapter 8, and we have that He, having "sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh". It is not sin in Satan. Of course He has condemned it in Satan. That matter was settled before man was created.

The brazen serpent meant that was its origin. There was no sacrifice for sin in Satan. But sin in the flesh is dealt with in Romans 8. God has dealt with that.

He has condemned it. "Has condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit --" (verses 3, 4). The Spirit is seen now operating and the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled. Then the chapter runs on with other allusions which show that on the basis of God's condemnation of sin in the flesh and the presence of the Holy Spirit, a believer is not in flesh but in Spirit, if so be that God's Spirit dwells in us. Not only that He is in us but undisturbedly in us.

Well, if we are all like that sitting down in assembly, you will see what a time we shall have, and what external order there is, because everyone has in mind God's law -- not my mind but God's law.

R.A.L. What should promote the brother to stand

up to break bread? His consciousness of himself, or "I speak of the things which I have made touching the king"? He has a song.

J.T. He does not sing a song as he stands up to break bread. "We being assembled to break bread", says Luke (Acts 20:7), speaking of the incident at Troas. They came together to break bread. An analysis of that chapter would show that there were spiritual men present. The evident fruit of Paul's work in different parts of the world were there; they accompanied him, and Luke says, "We being assembled to break bread". Now, Paul's discourse there has to be viewed as extraordinary, meaning that before we break bread we must listen to Paul. That is a sort of recovery point before we resume the breaking of bread. After the great captivity in the history of the assembly, we must listen to Paul.

But the primary thought in the passage was that they came together to break bread. Picture them all sitting there, Paul and Luke and several other distinguished men; what would happen? Well, as the brethren waited, Paul would get up and undoubtedly break the loaf. Paul, being there, would have in mind that they had come together to do this. It is not exactly a question of the Spirit leading us. It is not put that way. The Spirit does not come with us to break bread. We understand from Romans that everything is to be done in the Spirit -- that we are in the Spirit; but we are personally there to break bread. That is our business. That is what we come together to do. You can understand how Paul would do that. He would do it with instinctive understanding; and so would any spiritual man with instinctive understanding that the brethren were there for that purpose, and he would have deliverance in his soul in doing it; but he would do it on the principle that they came together to do it. You would feel glad when he did it. Not that Luke could not

have done it, or others. Any one of them might have done it, because 'we' is a mutual word in that sense. Not Paul and these distinguished men, but we came together to break bread.

J.W.D. This instinctive understanding works out more happily amongst us. An instinctive understanding usually expects a certain one to do it who is present, where the brethren are affected by the Spirit, but there is no discourse.

J.T. You feel from the standpoint of Romans 8 that there would be no difficulty about it. There would be a right understanding as to everybody. Well, that is a point that has been a great help to one, John's way of regarding what was said in that respect, and others' too. If you have what is of God, you can invite inspection. So here, "Who is this?" It is a question; no person is mentioned as asking it; but the question has a voice. And John says, "I turned back to see the voice" (Revelation 1:12) -- remarkable thing! I turned back, not to hear it, but to see it; meaning the person speaking and the person spoken of must be of interest. He is able to take account of these qualities or features in this person, and the first is that she is like pillars of smoke. Suppose Moses was there, and someone asked him what this is, Moses would say this is the love that the saints have for Jehovah. Jehovah said there are thousands of those that love Me. They are characteristically a sacrificial people.

W.R. Would you say this includes the youngest believer?

J.T. Well, it is a collective thought. The smoke is solid. It is not scattered by the wind, it is solid. That is the suggestion in the pillars of smoke.

J.R.H. It is not only what can be seen, but what can be smelt. Perfumed with myrrh and frankincense.

J.T. Well, she could be, I suppose. That would be the person that would be perfumed with myrrh

and frankincense, with all the powders of the merchant, meaning that she is not like the Corinthian assembly. You take them when Paul left. If anyone came to see what had happened they would see much irregularity.

E.P. Paul speaks of the grace of God bestowed on the assemblies of Macedonia. Do you think there would be smoke there?

J.T. Quite so. The Thessalonians, too. There was a scent went out from them.

A.P.T. According to Paul's second epistle to Corinth, there would have been order on a spiritual basis, would there, instead of disorder prevailing? I suppose they would have done it by rotation according to the first epistle in the breaking of bread.

J.T. By rotation, what do you mean?

A.P.T. Well, there were parties there. I do it this Sunday, you do it next.

J.T. Quite so. I have known that to happen. That is not right; that is not the saints moving in spiritual power. The "we" of Luke in Acts 20 is no question of gift at all. It is the persons you know, and some of us yesterday were remarking about personality. One feature of the assembly is the personal way we know one another. Normally we know one another, and that helps us in sitting down in a local setting. If there are parties there, cleavages, of course, we shall not be too pleased for a brother of the opposite party to get up and give thanks. We feel he is getting an advantage. That is very poor, because Romans 8 would dispel all that. We are of the Spirit, not of the flesh at all.

R.S. Then the brother who breaks the bread could also get up later on and address the Father, could he not?

J.T. Yes, he will by the spirit of adoption. But, we do not break bread by the spirit of adoption. I do not say it is not the same Spirit, because the Spirit is

presented in the scripture in many classifications. We break bread in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God known in that way according to Romans 8.

A.H.P. Had you any thought as to distinctive features of this myrrh and frankincense? Would they suggest something of the inward workings of the Spirit of God now taking form in the expression amongst the saints, carrying the odour like John 12?

J.T. I think that is good. Perfumed with myrrh and frankincense. Myrrh is usually a suggestion of suffering; not that one would make it that exclusively, but it is a drug with a refreshing odour. Frankincense would perhaps be stronger in that way. All of these would be graces of the Spirit. They would be what is emitted in spiritual power amongst us viewed collectively. Then all powders of the merchant would mean, I think, that you feel as in the Spirit that anything will not do. There must be something that would please the Lord. You must have all powders of the merchant, and I suppose the allusion to the merchant would mean that these cost something, so that the idea of cost and sacrifice enters into this position.

A.H.P. We would be preserved from orthodoxy by all powders of the merchant. It would involve that the Lord is coming to us in ministry at the present time as well as what preceded.

J.T. Yes, this is a current position, a position at a particular time. It is God, as it were, giving us an abstract view; someone who valued these things and who asked the question would understand what these things meant. Who is capable of all this? That all enters into the truth of the ministry of the assembly as presented in the scripture.

S.McC. Would you say a word as to the importance of this ellipsis and its bearing on our part in the assembly?

J.T. Well, that is the other side. The brethren will understand the ellipsis in the end of verse 6. I n verse 7 the Spirit of God goes on to Solomon. We are directed now to Christ. The other is the feminine side, "Behold his couch, Solomon's own: threescore mighty men are about it, of the mighty of Israel. They all hold the sword, experts in war; each hath his sword upon his thigh because of alarm in the nights", chapter 3:7, 8. Then in verse 9 it says, "King Solomon made himself a palanquin of the wood of Lebanon. Its pillars he made of silver, its support of gold, its seat of purple; the midst thereof was paved with love by the daughters of Jerusalem". That is a beautiful view; a combination of what Christ has made for Himself, and what the daughters of Jerusalem add to it. "Paved with love", that is our side.

S.McC. Is it not important in this relation, to observe and carefully notice the turn in the assembly service, so that we should not persist in going on after a turn is made? I mean in reference to Solomon; the quick turn from her to Solomon.

J.T. Yes, quite so. We go on too long, sometimes, on a certain line. We ought to be on the alert for the turning point, a change-over from the covenant to the feminine side with the saints in relation to Christ. We are together in the Spirit and the flesh has no place in the service. That is very happy, and it is for the Lord's eye, or someone else's eye, whoever has an eye for it. Come and see, if you have an eye for these things.

J.W.D. Would this not help so many of our young brothers to take part in the morning meeting?

J.T. Yes, I think that is good.

J.W.D. Even the youngest brother, as John's child, knows the Father. So many have no liberty in connection with the public service of God.

J.T. Well, they are coming into it, as far as I

observe, they are coming into it in a remarkable way. We had this morning a very young brother taking part, very nicely, and the oldest brother in the meeting followed him. It was very nice and pleasing to God. Many of our young brothers do not take part, but their taking part is very pleasing to God, and we do right in referring to what happens. "Who is this?" These marks we are entitled to regard in them because that is the position then; but as we move on, we leave all that and think of the greatness of Christ where He is everything, and in all. That is the turn-over now to Solomon. We need support at that juncture. Expert people in war know the turn, and they are on the alert. Darkness, distance, Satan is not very far away, but then we are going on to something Solomon has made for Himself, not something that we have made for Him. "My assembly" comes into mind, not so much the local assembly, but what He made for Himself. Then the paving with love by the daughters of Jerusalem, that is what He made and we are adding to it. That is not the first part of the meeting, but it is where Christ comes in and recognises us.

C.B. On the alert -- guarding against breakdown.

J.T. Anything that the enemy might use to disturb what is going on. These mighty men have their swords on their thighs; we may not need them at all.

C.B. It is not a question of using the sword, is it?

J.T. It is because of alarm in the nights. So these things are in our minds, put there by the Spirit of God, and when we sit down it is to serve us in good stead. We may not mention them at all, but then we are going on. It is what Christ has of His own. "I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse", chapter 5: 1. That is, it is His now, and then we begin to see that He is taking it on. It is His matter. So that she is leaning on her beloved, and He says, I have brought you up under the apple tree. You

have good manners. I am not ashamed of you. Many of us cause distress in the meeting because we do not know what to do. But if we are brought up under the apple tree, we would understand what to do, and not discredit the house by our talk.

Ques. What do you mean by good manners?

J.T. I brought thee up under the apple tree -- the upbringing of the saints; how they are nurtured.

S.McC. Paul said that God suffered their manners forty years.

J.T. Quite so, He bore them. Paul is commenting on good manners at Corinth. That is what he is after that there may be good manners among them.

A.P.T. If the saints have been brought up under clerical systems for a great many years, it takes time to bring us to the full thought of sonship.

J.T. We have passed through the patriarchal period, extending back as far as I remember; now the Lord has brought us round to the mutual side, including the youngest amongst us; the least of the assembly. But this matter of being brought up under the apple tree is important that we might have good manners.

C.W. Do you think Timothy would be one who had good manners in the house?

J.T. Yes, he represents that. Paul says, I have sent him to Corinth that he may put you in mind of my ways as they are in Christ. The perfect manners of Paul are represented in his child Timotheus.

J.R.H. What is the thought of being wakened up there? "I awoke thee under the apple tree", chapter 8: 5.

J.T. From the beginning, I would presume. "I awoke thee under the apple tree: there thy mother brought thee forth; there she brought thee forth that bore thee". The allusion is to Christ as the apple tree in the earlier part. That is, He is supreme. There is no one like Him -- no one like Christ. So

that John would open up the apple tree to us. John the baptist refers to Him as the Lamb of God, walking. He is like the apple tree, and two of John's disciples, seeing Him walk, leave John and follow Jesus. And when He asks the question, "What seek ye?" they say to the Lord, "Rabbi". They need teaching. They instinctively need teaching in the house, that is the idea of it.

J.R.H. Do you mean in saying "Rabbi" that there was the sense of being awake now?

J.T. Yes, and they needed teaching. The apple tree was there. "So is my beloved". There is no one like Him. He is supreme above all. He is incomparable, and now they ask, "Rabbi, ... where abidest thou?" 'Where do you live', and the Lord says, "Come and see".

S.R.McC. There is much that develops out of asking questions.

J.T. That is why these readings are so useful. It is question time. And that largely marks the Lord's ministry, answering questions. He is ready to answer them. They say, "Where abidest thou? He says to them", Come and see."They went therefore, and saw where he abode; and they abode with him that day. It was about the tenth hour". Well, they got teaching. That is how the matter began. The mother is brought in here. "There thy mother brought thee forth; there she brought thee forth that bore thee". It is in relation to Christ, making everything of Christ to them.

C.B. Would you say the Corinthians had moved in relation to the trees of the wood rather than the apple tree? That is why their manners were as they were.

J.T. They were comparing themselves with themselves.

C.A.M. Good manners were really acquired, at the end, even in Corinth, in connection with the great

awakening in chapter 15. Evil communications corrupt good manners (verse 33).

J.T. I think good manners are in the new covenant. That is the idea in connection with the mother. The new covenant is the love that is current amongst the saints, so that they take on the mother character; and hence, as our brother here was remarking about the young men taking part, probably they are hindered. The more the patriarchal spirit governs the assembly, the less the young will have an opportunity; and if there are party feelings, there will be rivalry, and the young are kept out of the way. Whereas, if the Spirit is there ungrieved, if we are in Spirit and not in flesh, what the young have is just delightful.

E.P. Do you think you have an example in 2 John 4? "I rejoiced greatly that I have found of thy children walking in truth", and then verse 3, alluding to the Lord Jesus Christ, "Son of the Father, in truth and love". And then in verse 13, "The children of thine elect sister greet thee". I was wondering if that were a suggestion of what you are speaking of as good manners.

J.T. It is delightful. The third letter is more like the beginning, but the elect lady who has her children is the mother and as children walking in truth they are brought up under the apple-tree. It is the objective teaching in the apostles, and now the mother is nurturing them and looking after them daily.

R.S. Luke has to call attention to Martha's unspiritual conduct in Luke 10, but before John passes off the scene, he says her manners are good.

J.T. I think God is bringing us back to the idea of manners. Evil communications corrupt good manners. Good manners were there at first under the apostles but God is bringing us back to them again, and I believe that is why John is so stressed in these last days. He brings in good manners.

C.A.M. In connecting the manners with the

covenant, would Sarah be a good example of it when she came into blessing and all bad manners had to be excluded and cast out? When she is in the freedom of good manners, there is laughter. "All that hear will laugh with me". I suppose that is good manners.

J.T. Quite so. That confirms what we are saying. The covenant is connected with the mother. There are two covenants. The apostle says Hagar was one and Sarah another. "Jerusalem above is free, which is our mother", Galatians 4:26. We are born of a free woman. Well, the apostle is really labouring in the letter to bring the brethren back to the apple-tree, that is to Christ. But then we can be under the mother, wake up under the apple-tree; and then we have the mother's influence; our mother, Jerusalem above. What liberty there is in that!

W.R. Would you say God really called Samuel from under his mother in that sense?

J.T. Yes, quite so. She brought him in there and set him down in the house of God.

A.H.P. Referring to young people again, do you not think it tends to their spiritual progress and prosperity to keep clear of anything of party feelings. It leaves them free for service in the house of God.

J.T. I am sure party spirit in the meeting dwarfs the young ones. They are not far enough on to know what the thing means. Think of coming and sitting down on the Lord's Day morning. Think of the children; some would be sitting over there and some sitting over here. How could they grow up there to manhood, spiritual manhood?

A.P.T. It tends to bondage, as in Galatians.

J.T. Quite so.

J.R.H. So those of us who are older are responsible to provide an atmosphere of peace and love.

J.T. Quite so, we speak of a poor lead in a meeting. What is meant is there is no liberty, no spiritual power. It is the idea of spiritual leading.

W.R. Meetings of over fifty tend to hinder the growth of the young.

J.T. Well, I think the small meetings greatly facilitate the growth of the young and participation in the meeting.

A.M. It says of Moses that he sent away his father-in-law, and then in connection with the elders going up to the mount it says the young men offered sacrifices.

J.T. That shows in Exodus 24 that there was spiritual power with the young men or youths offering sacrifices. It would mean there was spiritual power and plenty of it there.

J.W.D. In some places you have linked up the inheritance with the covenant. I was wondering if linking up the mother with the covenant, we should be more at home instinctively with what is involved in the inheritance -- how to place these things, and how to function in relation to them. Do you think that?

J.T. Tell us more.

J.W.D. I was only following out what you suggested. The covenant is an introduction into the inheritance. The covenant is intended to liberate us. It is what God is, the God with whom we have to do. 'What the God that thou hast found'.

J.T. That tends to liberate us and bring in a condition that encourages young brothers to take part. Everybody, brothers and sisters alike, sees that we have part in all this. "We being assembled to break bread", included everybody that was there.

A.P.T. What is the difference between Romans 5, the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts, and Romans 7, married to another? "To be to another, who has been raised up from among the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God", Romans 7:4. What is the difference in these two thoughts, one as

it were coming down from God in covenant love, and what will ascend to God as fruit?

J.T. Well, that opens up a wide range of inquiry. The early part of Romans is from God to us, what the Spirit is to us, how He serves us in shedding the love of God abroad in our hearts, a general matter, not simply known to the older ones. The Spirit gives you to understand He is dealing in a general way amongst the saints, excluding no one. Well, that makes for wealth amongst us, at least in the principle. Then we have baptism, in chapter 6. "As many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death" (verse 3). He is before us in baptism; but then what is needed to be stressed is "unto his death". That is, He has been raised from among the dead, so that we should walk "in newness of life". So that in chapter 7 in view of newness of life in chapter 6, and our members being yielded unto God as instruments of righteousness, the marital thought is brought in. He brings in that the first husband is dead. The first husband is the law, making us legal, and we are apt to be legal when we sit down together, having critical thoughts of one another, and that spoils the position and hinders the Spirit. But the first husband is dead, so that you are no longer under him. I disallow in my mind any principle of it, all that sort of thing, "to be to another, who has been raised up from among the dead". Raised up, taken out of the range of the critical spirit. We are on a new platform, being married to another, even to Him that is raised up from among the dead. And then it goes on to speak about serving in "newness of spirit".

D.G. They were all filled by the Spirit in Acts 2:4; we should all be filled with the Spirit.

J.T. That is a characteristic thought in the beginning of the dispensation, the Spirit coming. They were all together in one place with one accord. The

Lord says of the cup, "Drink ye all of it". Some have taken it to mean all the wine, but it is all the saints having part in it. Why should anyone be sitting back? Why should he not be taking part in that? The Lord says "all". It is really a constitutional word.

A.H.P. I was just going to raise a question as to what was involved in eating and drinking; whether it would enter much into the liberation of the saints in their souls in their service towards God. Not just eating a piece of bread, or drinking wine as such, but having these wonderful thoughts as to the body and the new covenant, whether we take on the spiritual thought sufficiently.

J.T. Quite so. So that the second epistle to the Corinthians is to bring out the spirit of the thing. The apostles were ministers of the new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit. Then he goes on to tell us the Spirit is Christ. "The Lord is the Spirit", 2 Corinthians 3:17.

A.P.T. I notice a great many of the Lord's people will sip the cup. The Lord says, "Drink ye all of it". Would that be a word for us?

J.T. Oh, well, it has a spiritual meaning. We do not want to have the brethren take a lot of wine. Drink is satisfaction, I think; the cup is peculiarly satisfying, and tends to liberate our souls, for we all have been made to drink into one Spirit.

C.B. Each one has part in it to carry the spiritual thought that it means what spiritually satisfies you. You are satisfied with the brethren that you are with. We have all been made to drink into one Spirit, meaning the company carries that thought, and you must not criticise them or think hardly of them because we have drunk into one Spirit. Would the Spirit of God challenge us in the beginning of the meeting as to "Who is this"?

J.T. I think we are entitled as we finish the meeting to refer to what is there.

Such and such a

brother spoke. Well, we are entitled to do that in a humble way because it is "Who is this?" God has made them thus. But the other side is that Christ is everything. You turn away from all that and think of the glory of Christ. It is no discredit to Christ. They all made much of Him. "... My garden, my sister, my spouse". You cannot discredit Christ by referring to her, but then we turn to Him. "What is thy beloved more than another beloved ... ?" one says to her.

J.A.T. You are perfectly satisfied with the brethren and thankful for them. You are able to look at them in this way.

J.T. But then there is the other side, "What is thy beloved ... ?" What could she say about Him?

He says beautiful things about her, but she says beautiful things about Him.

J.B. So, after that there are those who say, where is he gone, chapter 6, that we may seek him with thee? It would stimulate exercise with each.

J.T. The brethren were charged with making too much of the saints; but it is right to make much of them; but then turn around and make much of Christ as well.

THE SPIRIT OF SERVICE IN THE ACTS

Acts 4:23 - 30; Acts 5:1 - 10; Acts 6:1 - 7

J.T. What is in mind is to look at the service of God as seen in the twelve. It is important to have a clear view of the service of the twelve, because they appear in the foundations of the heavenly city; so that although we are already in the presence of the heavenly system of things, it is only the foundational side. We have already dwelt on chapter 2 (see Volume 92, page 403), calling attention to the variety of persons upon whom the Spirit should come according to the prophet Joel. It says, "And it shall be in the last days, saith God, that I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your elders shall dream with dreams; yea, even upon my bondmen and upon my bondwomen in those days will I pour out of my Spirit, and they shall prophesy", Acts 2:17, 18. We dwelt on these verses as having a great bearing on the subject before us and reminding us of the idea that the service of God includes all of us who are christians. Then we saw how the levitical principle came in in the recognition of gift, specific gift, in the twelve and how questions were directed to them, to the twelve, as people were convicted by the gospel. And then we noted the quality and the number; the quality of the result of their ministry at the end of chapter 2. We just mentioned chapter 3, it occupies us with two of them, so as to bring out special quality in the twelve, and the result in one man, also special quality, the peculiar result in the lame man lending itself to the testimony. Then in chapter 4 we have how they merge, how servants merge with their brethren generally, no matter how distinguished they are.

They unite in prayer so that all the apostles again come into view. It is said, "And with great power did the apostles give witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all". Not simply Peter and John now, but the apostles as such. Then in chapter 5 the service of discipline is taken on by Peter and in chapter 6 the deacon service is introduced wisely. I thought this would give an outline of what is before us now.

Ques. Is the thought of their own company the idea of merging together?

J.T. That is the thought. Chapter 3 is the first consideration as to quality in the ministry, particular quality, and then how those who are distinguished in that way merge in their own company.

A.H.P. Do you regard this man of chapter 3 as a product of the work of the apostles at that time in that he is seen finally standing with them?

J.T. Quite so. The opposers could say nothing because of his presence. How real the healing was!

S.McC. In the earlier part of the Acts the brethren are all together. It is important, as in chapter 3, that the ministers should know how to move together and work together, do you think?

J.T. Yes, these peculiar circumstances are alluded to so that we are affected by the right sentiment. Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, which is the ninth hour. It would call attention to the crucifixion of Christ. It was the hour of prayer and they went up together.

J.W.D. Peter and John stand for what was special, as against the other apostles?

J.T. That is what I understand by the passage, God is putting forth quality. He makes much of quality and graded quality. These two would represent the best at that time. One the leader, "first, Simon, who was called Peter", and John the second representing the idea of a second in the ministry,

without the slightest shade of rivalry in him. He says little or nothing in all that transpires. Peter does the things.

R.A. Would you say the service in this part of the Acts is marked by oneness, "all together in one place", the servants and the brethren as well?

J.T. Do you mean chapter 2?

R.A. It is mentioned three times in the commencement of the Acts.

J.T. They were together with one accord and the Spirit came. Now we are engaged with two persons, two of them singled out by the Spirit, going up this time. "Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer". It is a special testimony rendered to the Jews. That is one leading thought in these earlier chapters, God is apparently waiting on the Jews and presenting a palpable thing to them. There is formation, these two men would represent that, for God would present to the Jews the result of the work of Christ, so that Peter says, "Look on us".

C.B. Going up at the ninth hour would mean the death of Christ should greatly colour our prayer meetings and requests.

J.T. I think we should be capable of spiritual sentiment. The first day of the week carries that thought; and the ninth hour, it was only a short time before that the Lord had cried "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" at that hour. These two men would remember that.

C.A.M. At the ninth hour the darkness would be over, He was heard at the ninth hour.

J.T. Quite so. It ought to affect our hearts.

C.A.M. It gives a great meaning to Psalm 22, at a certain moment He was heard, and the service of God comes into view. Would you say that?

J.T. Quite so. He immediately proceeds to say, "Yea, from the horns of the buffaloes hast thou

answered me. I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee" (verses 21, 22). The product is so in keeping with these words. The gate of the temple, called Beautiful, is called attention to: "And Peter, looking stedfastly upon him with John, said, Look on us". John looked at him, too, but particularly Peter the man of the service of God. They want him to see them first. "Look on us". That is what God has in mind to effect. These two men represent what all servants ought to represent, what God is effecting; not simply what I say, but what I am in saying it.

W.L. Is that the importance of what you mentioned, the twelve apostles of the Lamb?

J.T. Quite so, suffering ones; here it is the formation. They looked at him together and say, "Look on us". Think of yourself, and think of us, we represent what God is doing through Christ.

J.W.D. Would this help us to make room for that which is special in the way of gift? Accompanied by spiritual formation it would produce results like this.

J.T. The thought is the ministers beget children; so that you get the great leaders Paul and John alluding to their children, the children of God, of course, but they are also the children of the ministers.

And you have to consider whether you think yourself a right model for a family.

C.A.M. The man would have the desire to be like them.

J.W.D. There is an attitude sometimes towards a servant, 'We like what you say, but we would not want to be like you'. That is the antithesis of this.

J.T. It is mentioned here, and mentioned for a purpose. It runs down the dispensation, "Look on us". Are we worth looking at? As the work of God, John enlarges on it, "Come and see". It is true

divine work; not the doctrine, but what is formed by it.

W.R. Paul was so free in bringing forward Timothy, a young man with him, "he works the work of the Lord, even as I", 1 Corinthians 16:10.

J.T. He was Paul's child. It is usually child because it is a question of family formation, not dignity.

E.P. Is there a certain meaning in the apostles going up to the temple: they were not embarking on public service, but drawing near to God in His temple?

J.T. That is the idea, "they ... were continually in the temple". They were God's contribution in the way of testimony to Israel at that time in the temple. The temple never had such persons really, as these men. "Continually in the temple praising and blessing God", Luke 24:53.

E.P. I was wondering if the questions asked in Psalm 24, "Who shall ascend into the mount of Jehovah? and who shall stand in his holy place?" would come into view in these two men.

J.T. They were quite worthy. You find throughout Luke this thought of persons in the temple who are suitable. First of all we have as over against this Zacharias, who is an official priest "of the course of Abia", the eighth of the twenty-four courses. He is thoroughly in order outwardly and he is where he should be, offering incense; but he is unbelieving in his heart, hence Gabriel stands at the right side of the altar of incense, that is over against what follows. He is stricken dumb for a season because he does not believe. He is an unbelieving priest, but he is capable of recovery, capable of being reconstituted. Then Elizabeth, Mary, Simeon and Anna, really priests, and finally the Lord Himself in the temple. Now here in the end of the book of Luke they are led as far as to Bethany, and they return to the city praising

and blessing God. God is presenting His very best to the Jews, waiting on them for the moment. It is a question of God's patience, He presents the very best. It is not what we say, but what we are.

J.S.T. In going up to serve God we should stand in the pathway to serve men on the way.

J.T. They say, "Look on us". Think of what we are and what you are. Moses says, "We will do thee good". You are conscious of being representative of God. "And he gave heed to them, expecting to receive something from them. But Peter said, Silver and gold I have not; but what I have, this give I to thee: In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazaraean rise up and walk. And having taken hold of him by the right hand he raised him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones were made strong. And leaping up he stood and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God". They are going into the temple now. They are carrying along the fruit of their work to praise God. That fits in particularly just now because God is stressing service toward Himself, and that requires priests.

W.L. That is really the object in view in preaching the gospel.

J.T. Quite so; to secure people for God, to make priests for God's service. He was lame "from his mother's womb", and was being carried. The man in chapter 14: 8 had never walked. This man may have walked, hobbled it may be, as the Jews under the law.

R.W.S. The work was well done. It says in verse 16, "And, by faith in his name, his name has made this man strong whom ye behold and know; and the faith which is by him has given him this complete soundness in the presence of you all". And then in chapter 4: 10, "Be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazaraean, whom ye have crucified,

whom God has raised from among the dead, by him this man stands here before you sound in body". Is that the kind of material that is for God?

J.T. Exactly; so that he is qualified to offer the bread of his God, not only to partake of it but offer it. In the book of Leviticus persons, because of certain constitutional blemishes or infirmities, were not allowed to offer the bread of their God, but they might partake of it. The teaching of today results in imperfect constitutions; so that people are able to partake of what is for the saints, but are not able to worship God. This man is, he is sound and perfect.

J.W.D. I was thinking in that connection that ministry without formation will produce constitutional weakness, will it not?

J.T. Quite so.

J.W.D. This man is a wonderful spiritual product, in vitality and life and vigour.

J.T. Much is made in the prophets of formation, not only the general thought of recovery but formation. It began with Adam really.

T.H. Would you say it is only those who can worship who are qualified to take their place in connection with the testimony?

J.T. You might allow them to take their place as partaking of the bread of their God, to partake of what is ministered. They have a place in the fellowship but not a place in the active service in worship, to offer the bread of their God.

T.H. I was thinking of this man; in the next chapter he is seen standing with the apostles.

J.T. The fact that he entered with them into the temple is specially to be noticed, and we are told moreover that he held Peter and John; he was thoroughly with them, not only outwardly but he held them. As much as to say, These two men are my ideal. It is a great thing to be representative of God. Paul says, "Ye became our imitators, and of

the Lord", 1 Thessalonians 1:6. He was worth following.

C.B. Would you say a word as to holding Peter and John. How would you apply that to us?

J.T. You thoroughly accept the thing that God is accrediting, you do not question it. You do not say, I go with John to a certain extent and Peter, too, but I have my own thoughts also. The point here is he has thrown all aside. These two men represent what is right, what I believe, that is what it means.

W.R. Would the two suggest balance in the service?

J.T. You mean Peter and John? That is right. John represents the family side, the love side, and Peter order and authority.

E.P. Would the walking, leaping and praising God mean that the ministry is filled out in spontaneity of life? He is not using certain phrases.

J.T. Just so. They do not have to help him along, he holds them. With most of the young people we have to keep holding on to them, and we should, too; but this man does not need this kind of care, he holds on to them.

C.A.M. He must have been very flexible. He was forty years old. If a man is over forty years old there is a deadening influence spiritually, an age that has got set, he really needs to be remade or else he is no good in the service.

J.T. Quite so.

E.P. It is remarkable, is it not, that in Leviticus 11:21 it speaks of animals "Which have legs above their feet with which to leap upon the earth". Leaping seems to have a certain place in relation to the service of God.

J.T. Quite so; leaping is spiritual power. Of Dan in Deuteronomy 33:22, it says "he shall leap from Bashan", to get out of a false position. God would give you strength yourself to do it.

R.W.S. If we have lost some of this spring, how do we recover it?

J.T. You come back to where you turned aside in self-will. It is a question of self-judgment; you have to discern where you turned aside. Why have I lost spring? Why have I lost power? I think God would come in for anyone who looks at it in that way, settling things with God.

A.P.T. John Mark evidently lost his spring. You feel there is that element amongst us at times, those who lose their spring through mistakes made. John Mark recovers himself and holds on to Peter and John in that way. There are no reservations in regard of the Lord's service.

J.T. Quite so. Paul himself said "for he is serviceable to me for ministry", 2 Timothy 4:11.

J.W.D. Do you think constitutional weaknesses can be rectified, however long standing they may be?

J.T. Yes, thank God! They generally refer to man's influence and teaching religiously. There is hope because there is power in the Spirit to rectify all malformations.

W.L. It is important that the Spirit of God did not ignore this man.

J.T. I think it is important that the Spirit of God did not ignore you and me. It is a question of God taking account of us, as the Lord did the blind man as He went on. He saw him, and He had him in His mind; otherwise the man would not have been there at all. In the case of blind Bartimaeus, the Lord did not pay attention to him, he paid attention to Christ. The Lord was passing on, and he heard of Him, "O Son of David, Jesus, have mercy on me", Mark 10:47. That is another side, my taking account of the Lord and the testimony.

E.P. Do you think it is possible to come to meetings like this looking for alms?

J.T. I suppose so. A good many live on alms; a

good many of the Lord's people are a public charge, and, of course, there is plenty to support them. To use a figure, a nation is bound to support the needy.

There is much of that going on. How much better to be contributory! I think this man represents that.

L.K. What would be implied in the thought of Peter taking him by the hand, not only speaking but also putting forth his hand and taking him by the right hand?

J.T. That is right, "having taken hold of him by the right hand", Acts 3:7. You give the man every possible advantage -- whatever may be in him; make much of that. He was not lame in his hands but lame on his feet.

L.K. We get much in the way of speaking, but this would be something further, taking him by the hand.

J.T. It is a magnanimous feature in the ministry, that gives the man every possible advantage.

J.W.D. I think what you suggest is most important. He did not find fault with his feet.

A.P.T. Do you think it is helpful not to magnify constitutional defects, but to bring in what is positive to help in these cases?

J.T. Quite so. David took on Mephibosheth, and he was lame in both his feet. No doubt he looked very well at table.

Ques. What is the difference in the man in John 5? He did not stand by the Lord like this man.

J.T. He is like many, he brought the Lord into trouble. There are many like that. They get a certain benefit, but do not go on. The Lord said, "Sin no more, that something worse do not happen to thee", John 5:14. A man like that is in great danger.

W.R. Would this man learn that it is not for monetary returns?

J.T. Peter makes it known to him that there is

nothing of that to be expected from them. Many come along for temporary advantages.

C.A.M. Those who are outstanding in that way should be free from such motives.

J.T. Quite so.

C.A.M. You cannot really make them any poorer. What Peter gave him did not make Peter poorer, but richer.

H.B. It says that the people ran together to them in the portico; is that how we are to be affected by the exemplification of the thing?

J.T. "All the people ran together", that is the thought in these signs or miracles, to call attention to what is of God, not only the power that was there, but the kind of persons that were there. "All the people ran together to them in the portico which is called Solomon's, greatly wondering", chapter 3: 11. It was a very real testimony, not only to the power but to formation, the kind of persons that were there, and how God is before them. They were going up to God at the hour of prayer and now this man is brought with them praising God.

T.H. Is there any significance in that it was the 'Beautiful' gate of the temple?

J.T. I suppose so; it was the best side of the religious system, it was called Beautiful. People come to think of it in that way.

A.H.P. Silver and gold would have entered largely into the construction of that temple. What God was aiming at now was another kind of temple as set out in this man.

J.T. Just so. All this enters into the precious stones of the foundations of the city. It is the pentecostal church that is in mind in Revelation 21, and all this enters into that. It is the quality that is in mind in the twelve.

E.P. "Beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion", Psalm 48:2. I was thinking of

the beautiful gate of the temple, the attractiveness of it, then the opposition in the next chapter.

J.T. Quite so. I think what you see here is that the thing is gradually displacing what was there materially. It is displaced morally before it is thrown down. Every stone is being thrown down; displacement is the divine thought, working here in these persons, so that you have the true mount Zion.

J.W.D. Would you say gift conveys light, and spiritual formation begets life in the power of the Spirit?

J.T. You cannot have the assembly without spiritual formation that runs along with light. This man is a living stone. We do not get the teaching governing all that but we get it later in Peter's own ministry and also in Paul's.

A.H.P. I think what you say is very important that nothing is allowed to lapse in God's ways; before there is the actual setting aside of the material temple there is brought into evidence this great work that had its foundation in the apostles.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Prayer and praise would be a nice combination, would it not?

J.T. Yes. What is said of the man here is, "And leaping up he stood and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God". So that it is praise really going beyond the sense of need. There is what is for God immediately, that is very striking in the man.

W.W. Would you say that is in contrast to the beautiful gate? Here is a living stone able to praise God.

J.T. Quite so. Look at that stone; there were three thousand before, but now here is one that is special. God delights in that. His work is marked by that. Now the next thing is these great servants, so successful in their work, are brought into suffering

but having been let go, they came to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. It is the idea of merging, which makes for good relations amongst us -- whatever is done is a common matter affecting us all. Because after all, the most gifted amongst us, the most able, is one of us, as Paul says, "ourselves your servants", 2 Corinthians 4:5. We belong to the community, all is of God, and what God had there! It says, "And they, having heard it, lifted up their voice with one accord to God, and said, Lord, thou art the God who made the heaven and the earth and the sea". There is not an atom of rivalry, of feeling: it is all one whether it is Peter or John; they belong to the company and all merge together beautifully in prayer. Then the whole place is shaken where they prayed, so that the apostles themselves as such come into view again, not simply Peter and John, but the apostles.

Ques. Do you think the Spirit is working to that end in these days?

J.T. Yes, I am sure He is. It is the opposite to clericalism. What is of God in that company will be capable of grading everything, giving credit to whom credit is due. We shall find that in the apostles. Paul speaks of "things that are more excellent",

Philippians 1:10. We are to grade everything: not to be communists, not dragging down to our level, but recognising the grace in others to come down to be with us. "Let the brother of low degree glory in his elevation, and the rich in his humiliation",

James 1:9, 10. "The rich and poor meet together; Jehovah is the maker of them all", Proverbs 22:2.

A.P.T. This man would be with them, he would observe their conduct as they merged.

J.T. Quite so. He would look around at the other apostles, too, as we have already. They spoke "to Peter and the other apostles", Acts 2:37. You will never become Peter's man or Paul's man in the

spiritual realm. It speaks of Joab's men, that is partisan feelings. This man would look around in the company at the other apostles. That Matthew is a wonderful man! Look around Zion and see what God has. He has got more than just Peter and John.

W.L. They shine together. They would never be more beautiful than in their brotherly setting.

R.W.S. You called attention to the word 'despot', I was wondering whether there is scope for that in our meetings. You are not addressing the Father in the liberty of sonship, but addressing the Lord as despot. Where does that fit in?

J.T. We will have to make that clear. "And they, having heard it, lifted up their voice with one accord to God, and said, Lord, thou art the God who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them; who hast said by the mouth of thy servant David, Why have the nations raged haughtily and the peoples meditated vain things? The kings of the earth were there, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against his Christ. For in truth against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou hadst anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the nations, and peoples of Israel, have been gathered together in this city to do whatever thy hand and thy counsel had determined before should come to pass. And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings, and give to thy bondmen with all boldness to speak thy word, in that thou stretchest out thy hand to heal, and that signs and wonders take place through the name of thy holy servant Jesus",

Acts 4:24 - 30. That word "Lord" in verse 24, is 'despot' as the note shows. That is, the setting is not that they speak to God as the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, themselves as sons, but they speak to Him as a despot, as One in supreme authority and having power to enforce it, and they themselves His bondmen. That is a very wholesome attitude.

R.W.S. How might it work out now?

J.T. It is very remarkable that they addressed Him in that way. The position is most urgent. They are beset all round and they are most urgent for help and they got it immediately.

J.S.T. They know His authority and power in the past in relation to creation. They desire power now in regard to speaking and healing. Would you say something in regard of that?

J.T. They are not very far removed from Old Testament ground here in their language. They were possessed of the Spirit of adoption, but they are holding it in check. We are in the most urgent need and we are calling upon Jehovah. It is Jehovah, I suppose, now, with the distinction of Master or Despot.

R.W.S. Would it be normal for this kind of prayer to be offered up in countries where there is persecution?

J.T. Yes, the more urgent the matter is the more you would resort to this. It is taking the most abject place before God.

C.A.M. I am glad that came up because in addressing divine Persons sometimes you find that there will be a desire in a brother to bind you down to address Them in a certain way. It seems if you inquire and search into what they have in mind, there is some difficulty in them in regard to the greatness of divine Persons. They are refusing something that has to do with the greatness of the Lord personally, and hence they are not free in such a range of things.

J.T. Quite so.

J.R.H. Do you think they were in the full sense of having received a kingdom which could not be shaken?

J.T. You are taking a place at the footstool. It is one thing to worship at the golden altar or the holiest, but it is another thing to worship at the footstool of God in the abject attitude which God respects. He does not want us to be in a servile position always,

but it is wholesome to take it in view of the urgency of the need. See the array of power against them, "in this city", too, not at a distance. What is current today is at a distance from us. It is in this city, in the very place where they are that this is going on. They are most urgent, God answers them at once (verse 31). The answer was immediate, the result of taking an abject place. We have, in the types, persons rending their garments and taking off their shoes. "But David went up by the ascent of the Olives, and wept as he went up, and had his head covered, and he went barefoot", 2 Samuel 15:30. All these things refer to emotions and suitable feelings in us in having to do with God. I should not say despot to God in the assembly in worship, but when in urgent need, get down as low as possible.

J.R.H. Do you think in the shaking of the house that He was showing Himself as One able to shake all things?

J.T. Yes, they refer to His power in creation.

J.W.D. You get in 1 Peter 4:17, "For the time of having the judgment begin from the house of God is come", and then in verse 19, "Wherefore also let them who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls in well-doing to a faithful Creator".

J.T. "Faithful Creator", just so; the everlasting gospel presently will relate to the creation, too.

A.H.P. "The Lord God Almighty", would that correspond?

J.T. Yes, quite so.

Ques. In urgent need one notices the prayers are always short and to the point.

J.T. Quite so. "This kind does not go out but by prayer and fasting", Matthew 17:21. It should always be, but especially in urgent matters. I think what we are talking about shows how we merge in the community. What there is belongs to us all. The great servants came to their own company and told

them what had happened. Then there is prayer. Thus the apostles are all again in evidence. But the Spirit of God is using His own vessels, as we get lower down.

S.McC. Someone must have given utterance to this, but it says, "they said".

J.T. Quite so.

A.P.T. Do you not think that God heard the prayers of the saints recently?

J.T. I am sure He did. They were most urgent.

The brethren in England would get down to any depth to get relief, but why do we not apply it more often?

E.P. They said, "Lord ... God ... who hast said by the mouth of thy servant David" (verse 25). Would it imply an inward knowledge of God?

J.T. Quite so. That brings up another thing, the recurrence of the word 'servant' throughout this chapter, applying it to the Lord Himself. The idea of service in its varied features is appearing in the twelve apostles. It is set here as a precedent for us so that we should answer to that in some little way.

S.McC. "Thy holy servant"; Luke makes much of holiness; that would be important in relation to service, would it not?

J.T. Quite so. The next thing is a very critical question of discipline and would occasion much thought, preserving the assembly from defilement.

It is to bring out that in apostolic times there was power to meet any attack of the devil, even if it were inside. In the case of Ananias and Sapphira, the lesson is how to meet attacks of the devil to defile us in our localities.

A.P.T. Would chapter 4 indicate that the external thing is met by God, whereas chapter 5 shows dangers that are met by the inward side?

J.T. Peter meets it, he knows what to do. There are those who say, The Lord will do it, the Lord will see to it, and things are allowed to drag on and the saints are defiled and the Spirit grieved. We are

saying the Lord will come in; the Lord would say, It is your matter, I will be with you. Hence chapter 5: 1 - 5, it is a marvellous thing done by a man. Of course God caused Ananias to die. God did that but Peter put the thing before him in an orderly way. It is a great principle in discipline. Let the actual guilt be stated concisely in the assembly; God will act for us.

C.B. Is this really the setting of an assembly meeting for discipline?

J.T. The actual guilt is stated. Peter is an apostle and knows what happened, I suppose, by the Spirit. There are no witnesses called to prove it. It is manifestly so, and he stated the guilt precisely. In our case we would have to bring evidence that there is guilt; but do not forget to state the guilt and prove it otherwise it should not be brought into the assembly.

C.A.M. The man not only had reservations but was deceptive about it.

J.T. He was selfish, pretending to be what he was not in a sacrificial way. We were talking yesterday of pillars of smoke. John says, "Behold the Lamb of God". We are to be sacrificial and wholehearted, and he was not that; he was deceiving, trying to put on a good front with his heart not in it and his wife was with him.

J.R.H. There is an affectionate appeal, something like Joshua speaking to Achan.

J.T. Quite so.

R.A. Does the Spirit reveal the guilt? I was thinking of Ezekiel 11, where the Spirit reveals the guilt and shows the twenty-five men in the east gate.

J.T. Yes, the guilt is here clearly manifest, known. What Peter says is true and God acted in regard of it.

R.W.S. Would it be right to say the local assembly maintains an emergency service for alarms in the night, so that things are dealt with and not allowed to run on for months and years?

J.T. There is secret service and emergency service. Our position is secret in this respect. We are with God and get God's mind. God gives us means, and what little information we can get carries its own assurance. God clothes it and makes it clear.

W.L. Would you say that even outside information has weight?

J.T. Not much.

W.L. "A good report of them which are without", 1 Timothy 3:7.

J.T. That is a question of how they look at us. That does not mean we are to bring it into the assembly. I should not accept their report. I should not base much on it in the assembly. Nor do I think God would bring it in much.

W.W. If we are cast on God He will come in for us.

J.T. Secret service, you know, is for finding things out. If we are with God He will make them known. This is an assembly matter. God has concealed the assembly for centuries, but it is the honour of kings to search things out. There is no need to be in the dark, because the Lord will help. There is secret service as in connection with David, and then the emergency service, Peter is ready for this matter. He is not behind.

G.M. Say a word on the fact this is made so much of by the Spirit at this time.

J.T. There is no one exempt from it. It is very solemn and it really means, as we see in Judas and as we see here, that a place is given to the devil. Peter says, "Why has Satan filled thy heart that thou shouldest lie to the Holy Spirit" (verse 3). What a great advantage he had, in that he was a man in Jerusalem in the assembly; and yet he was capable of this thing, to decide secretly with his wife: 'We will make a show and give so much. It was a good deal, but it is not all. More could be offered but we will

pretend that is all'. They are opening the door to the devil, to lie to the Holy Spirit in the assembly. It is a challenge to the presence of God in the assembly. That is what the enemy was after. How serious that I should lend myself to anything like that!

W.W. Why should natural relationships be brought in? That should speak to us.

J.T. The husband and wife are in collusion in this serious matter. It is a military matter. Satan is aiming at the great position that God has set up in Jerusalem in the assembly to discredit it, and these two persons are used.

A.P.T. Peter was showing that the foundations of the city were secure. It says, "the street of the city pure gold, as transparent glass", Revelation 21:21. What is needed in our local assemblies is transparency. So you can see right through a brother, no dark spots.

J.T. Quite so.

S.McC. "Who is she that looketh forth as the dawn, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, terrible as troops with banners?" Song of Songs 6:10. It is important in the assembly, is it not, that in judgment things should be so stated in clearness that there is the dispersion of every element of darkness from the minds of the saints?

J.T. Just so. If the thing is there, there is power to deal with it. "Terrible as troops with banners".

S.McC. Sometimes when the assembly has been together in a judicial way, the brethren do not know what has transpired, issues are not clear. It is important that things should be stated clearly.

J.T. Clearly and concisely as here, a few words; see how simple this speech of Peter's is. That is how it should be stated in the assembly.

E.P. Is there any importance in the thought that Ananias died and was buried before his wife knew

about it? One thing is being dealt with at a time. Our minds are not confused.

J.T. Very good.

J.W.D. Do you think that the power is left in the system so that anything of this nature in a locality can be brought to light? There is faith in the functioning power of the Spirit to bring rebellion to light.

J.T. Quite so. The indictment of the sister when she comes in is equally clear. "And it came to pass about three hours afterwards, that his wife, not knowing what had happened, came in" (verse 7). She must have been very dull, hardly characteristic of the assembly as the body, or she would have known some sorrowful thing had happened. "And Peter answered her, Tell me if ye gave the estate for so much? And she said, Yes, for so much". He makes her convict herself, he does not make the man do that. "And Peter said to her, Why is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Lo, the feet of those that have buried thy husband are at the door, and they shall carry thee out. And she fell down immediately at his feet and expired" (verses 9, 10). God acted again, acted in connection with the plain concise statement of the guilt. Conviction is there.

A.P.T. In these church difficulties, if I have part in a leading way and have caused the saints to be led into error, I should admit it. This woman had an opportunity to admit it. How much did you get? She had an opportunity to speak the truth and clear herself. I believe one of the great difficulties amongst us is that the brethren who have had part in church errors have not confessed the errors humbly before God and the brethren. That is why there is not the same confidence in the brethren who have done these things.

J.T. Nor is there the full result in testimony, because we have the sequel to all this; it might

appear that the work would be more limited now in such severe discipline but, "great fear came upon all the assembly, and upon all who heard these things. And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders done among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch, but of the rest durst no man join them, but the people magnified them; and believers were more than ever added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women;)", Acts 5:11 - 14. So that we need not be afraid of dealing with evil, stating it clearly and concisely because the assembly must be brought into it. God will work with us and honours that.

W.W. You need to judge the root of the thing; if you are on party lines you must judge the root of the thing. The woman had a chance to judge it.

J.T. You mean this was really a party matter. They were in collusion (verse 2).

W.L. I was wondering why Peter acted alone in this.

J.T. It was to bring out Peter's distinction. We began with that in regard to the twelve, "first, Simon, who was called Peter". He has the leading place and God is recognising that. You can see how well he did it. The point is he did it properly and God supported him. That is what we need in our meetings: a proper and spiritual lead so that things are done right.

D.G. Should discipleship be confined to the masculine side or is there the feminine side also as in Esther?

J.T. Both.

D.G. I was thinking of what you were saying earlier, how that Mary anointed Jesus, how she was used in that particular service.

J.T. Quite so; it says in chapter 2: 17, "I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy". We see some of this in the secret service in 2 Samuel 17. There was

Hushai the friend of David and two old priests, Zadok and Abiathar; their two sons Ahimaaz and Jonathan, and then two sisters, two women, one a maid, who had a lowly place in some house, but who served well in the secret service. There were seven persons, two of them women in this important secret service.

R.A.L. Is it not important to see that whilst Ananias and Sapphira are mentioned first as husband and wife they are not dealt with as such, they are dealt with as brethren?

J.T. He is dealt with first, and she after. It is remarkable they are not dealt with together, to bring them in together would confuse the matter. It was ordered of God that he should come in by himself. They are not dealt with together.

J.H-t. Would you say it is important to see what Satan is trying to get at in the way of evil amongst the saints? To Ananias Peter says it is lying to the Holy Spirit, but to Sapphira it is tempting the Spirit of the Lord.

J.T. The three divine Persons are brought into this matter.

E.P. Is there a kind of root evil in this first thing that occurred in the early church, putting aside a part of the price for themselves?

J.T. It reminds you of the sin of Adam and Eve, the same sort of thing. It is root error; pride must have entered into it. Husband and wife taking counsel together with selfishness to have a show, not really to sacrifice.

A.H.P. The same kind of thing might be seen in a number of brethren, not necessarily related naturally, but agreeing together regarding matters in connection with the house of God, the idea of collusion, tending to darken the fellowship.

J.T. Yes, especially with parents trying to hide things about their children; transparency is the thing.

R.W.S. In an assembly meeting for discipline, is it generally known who will present the evidence or do we come together just waiting for help as we come? Is it decided in the care meeting who will present things?

J.T. That is a matter of confidence. The brethren have taken the matter up and reached a certain conclusion and present it to the assembly by one or two of their number. Confidence in the assembly would accept that. We must always make allowance for God in the assembly. If a brother is stating a thing, you say That is of God, the Spirit of God confirms what has been said. I look for it in all matters of that kind.

C.B. Why is it in matters of this sort you hear some saying, Peter moved without affection, or he was lacking in affection?

J.T. Well, I do not think he was. He was meeting terrible evil. You can see how God wrought with him. When we have to deal in judgment it is according to the sin; we have to put on judicial garments. You may see the Lord changes His garments when dealing with the assemblies as to sin, putting on His judge's robes, and being girt about the paps with a golden girdle. It is not the time of love, conditions forbad it. It is there but bound up. It is remarkable how Peter is honoured, because in a subsequent passage the shadow of Peter is not the shadow of the judge. The whole history shows he was a feeling man.

J.A.T. The experience of Peter with the Lord in John 21 prepared him for this.

J.T. No doubt he had been dealt with himself, the Lord looked at him.

A.P.T. Is this judicial side connected with the forsaking?

J.T. Yes; exactly, it is dealing with sin. Why should we spare a christian when he is guilty? God

did not spare His Son, Jesus, when He took on sin as the sin-offering.

The next point is the care for the poor, for the needy, a very important service amongst us. Chapter 6 shows how the neglect of that may bring in dissension and murmuring in the assembly. So that we have to watch this matter of need amongst us: it should be met. We have seven men here. It is put on the brethren themselves, all this, not to appoint them but to seek them out. "And the twelve, having called the multitude of the disciples to them, said, It is not right that we, leaving the word of God, should serve tables. Look out therefore, brethren, from among yourselves seven men, well reported of, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we will establish over this business", chapter 6: 2, 3. The seven men are selected and the murmuring ceases, cleavage is averted and love is active in wisdom in qualified persons.

R.W.S. The trend of the world toward trade unionism makes this matter of the brethren not being able to get employment more urgent as the time grows shorter.

J.T. I think if we challenge this question of trade unionism in our meetings we should be prepared to help our brethren that have to suffer. They cannot take on the mark of the beast; God takes definite issue with it in the book of Revelation. If they cannot take it on they are bound to suffer. It is for the brethren to stand by them. This chapter is to teach us this.

S.McC. I heard of a young man tested as to trade unionism in another part of the country. He came to the brethren after the meeting one night and put the matter before them for help and counsel as to his position. It was said to him, This is your matter, it is according to your faith, you must not expect us to

support you if you get out of work. You will have to stand to it. Do you think that is right?

J.T. That is altogether wrong, there is no love in it, no sympathy at all.

S.McC. That was actually done and the young brother went and joined the union.

J.T. He should not have done it, but the brethren helped him to do it.

Rem. It says here they had all things in common.

J.T. It does.

C.A.M. I can see that would be giving Satan an opportunity, if you force the thing on someone.

J.T. Quite so. A man becomes depressed; he says, What can I do? I knew a young man who was discharged last May because the workers were on strike and he was forced out. He could not join the union, and he had great sorrow in his family, too, at that time. He had been only nine months in fellowship. The brethren stood by him and helped him financially. I heard a few months later his employers sent for him and reinstated him. God helped him and the brethren in that way. It is our matter, this chapter shows we are in a community. All are brought into this matter, like Abraham looking for the three-year-old cattle. It is really a wholesome thing to look around. Look around for seven men who can be trusted with money matters, who know how to serve in love. It is peculiarly an administrative matter of love. They care for the needy, they settle the matter and the crisis is past. From this point on we get very little about the twelve. We get a great deal about these persons, and how they purchased to themselves a good degree.

W.L. Why are these not business-men?

J.T. Look at the qualifications required; it does not say anything about business-men. "Seven men, well reported of, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom".

Why should we look for business-men; they are apt to be very calculating and looking for profits.

A.P.T. They become business-men of a different kind.

C.A.M. An accountant or a lawyer would be the worst man in the place!

J.T. Quite so.

UNOFFICIAL SERVICE

Acts 6:8 - 15; Acts 8:4 - 8; Acts 9:6 - 19; Acts 11:19 - 26; Acts 13:1 - 4

J.T. We have to consider the work and service of persons without formal commissions. Pursuing the book of the Acts, we find Peter finishing his testimony in the opening of the door to the gentiles, the door of the kingdom, in which he did well; but he had to be prepared for it specially by heaven, reminding us that if any work opens up to us different from what we have been engaged in, we need to be particularly concerned that we get the mind of God. So that Peter has a vision, a remarkable experience according to chapter 10, and is qualified, fitted, and set at liberty to do the special work, and this great work opens up to him. At the end of chapter 9 he sets before us a principle, that if we are to be spiritually in the service of God we are not to be out of accord with the change-over in the character of the service.

Paul's conversion implied that the Lord had in mind that he was to do a great work, as an elect vessel, that the assembly should be brought into evidence, and that the economy should work out in localities, not in a central or metropolitan position, but in localities throughout the world. Before the truth given to Paul is developed, but after he is converted, Peter seems to sense by the Spirit what is coming in and is ready for it, so he goes through all quarters in chapter 9: 32, "Now it came to pass that Peter, passing through all quarters, descended also to the saints who inhabited Lydda". That is a great principle in local matters. The thing has to be done by the persons there. Then secondly, raising Tabitha, he "presented her living": there is a sense in the locality of responsibility to do things for God. On the other hand, they are done in a living way, not in

a mere legal or routine way. Chapter 10 finishes Peter's testimony in so far as Acts is concerned. He is seen again, but in general, that is the great end of the service of the twelve, Peter being outstanding right through.

Then, as I said, we now have to look at service by persons who are nondescript, but still very successful service, first in Stephen and Philip; and then in chapter 11 we are told, "They then who had been scattered abroad through the tribulation that took place on the occasion of Stephen, passed through the country of Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to no one but to Jews alone. But there were certain of them, Cyprians and Cyrenians, who entering into Antioch spoke to the Greeks also, announcing the glad tidings of the Lord Jesus. And the Lord's hand was with them, and a great number believed and turned to the Lord" (verses 19 - 21). So that we see in this section, beginning with the end of chapter 6, how persons without formal commissions may serve and serve effectually, so that their work is taken account of, and is in entire keeping with the spirit of the moment, with the spirit of Paul's ministry, before Paul's ministry came out. It would mean that they were spiritual persons who walked in the Spirit and lived in the Spirit, as we are told to do. So that first of all we should consider Stephen and Philip, then in general the scattered saints, and then Barnabas and Saul.

S.McC. As distinct from the service connected with the twelve, how does this feature of the service in individuals, referred to here, work out in a practical way today?

J.T. It is helpful for young servants, those who desire to serve, to show that they can do it; not wait for invitations to serve, but as they have opportunity, take on service as it opens up. The Lord gives opportunities. Later they will be

invited to serve by the saints, but initially they have to show that they can. Nobody else can help them. They have to do it themselves. It is obligatory on each to do something himself. He may be appointed to the same manner of service, but he takes on something more as he has opportunity. He begins to show that he can do something, and then the Lord takes him on. You see how Philip, for instance, went down to Samaria to preach Christ; he did not have himself before him in what he was doing, he preached Christ. The appellation Christ means the One who does everything. Let us never forget that! The most unskilled has that light as well as the most skilled. He preached Christ; there were great results. The angel sent him on a great service and the Spirit took him on, told him to join the chariot, and finally raptured him and caught him away, showing that He was so pleased with him. I believe Philip is a model for all young brothers and sisters in regard of service.

E.P. Would this dispute in the synagogue arise on practical lines? Authority in doctrine was vested in the apostles; a new element of authority had come in now dealing with what was practical. I was wondering whether the "freedmen" suggests an attitude, 'we do what we like'.

J.T. You mean that Stephen was moving under authority. Yes, quite so. And the Libertines would not like that, it would not suit them. At first it says, "And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought wonders and great signs among the people. And there arose up certain of those of the synagogue called of freedmen, and of Cyrenians, and of Alexandrians, and of those of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen", chapter 6: 8, 9. God gives more grace. It seems a remarkable thing that there should be such opposition from such wide, extended parts against this man. He was himself, I apprehend, a man from

a distance, a Hellenist, I suppose. He himself was a man of that type, and the enemy, I suppose, senses that this man represents a new turn in the building of the temple, or of the walls of Jerusalem. The twelve are not attacked, it is this man.

C.A.M. It is like the move of an army, Satan is always secondary in his ideas. So the man's name and his setting would make the enemy feel it is going to be on a larger scale.

J.T. You mean his crown?

C.A.M. It is a Greek name.

J.T. It would be, I suppose. Stephanas -- Stephen. The enemy would say, this man is in keeping with it, "full of grace and power". He was doing something, "wonders and great signs among the people". God has victory in mind on another line, not on apostolic lines, but "those who shall have ministered well obtain for themselves a good degree", 1 Timothy 3:13. I begin to rule over myself, because I shall never acquire a good degree unless I get victory over myself in that sense, "So then I myself with the mind serve God's law", Romans 7:25. I believe that enters into Stephen's make-up, on the line of victory in himself first.

W.L. Is it good for the young to start serving tables?

J.T. Yes. The next thing -- Am I victorious over myself? I believe that is what Stephen was initially -- one is full, not full of himself but full of grace and power.

C.A.M. It is a great thing to be of value, willing to give your life for a position, so strikingly set forth in Stephen. I suppose a general would promote a man where he was ready to give his life.

J.T. It is a military position. And so in the council, "all who sat in the council, looking fixedly on him, saw his face as the face of an angel". It is glory in a man, glory shining in a man, he is manifestly

victorious over himself, "full of grace and power". He is showing it in what he is doing. This widespread opposition only brought out the reflection of heaven in judicial glory.

W.W. In connection with what you said about a vessel full of light, no darkness, it only exposed the darkness and hatred.

J.T. He is really intended to represent the Lord in this service, a representative of Christ. He is the first martyr, he has that honour, that is his crown.

-.DeB. He is a sort of a leader in that way. "We ought for the brethren to lay down our lives", 1 John 3:16.

J.W.D. Do you think all those who embark on unofficial service must make up their minds for suffering of this kind?

J.T. I think they do. In truth you might say all service in these remnant times is of this kind. The Lord is not putting out His hand publicly to honour anybody. The point in Stephen is that he was full of grace and power. It seems very remarkable that the opposition should be so widespread, first by these freedmen -- Libertines, they would do as they liked. But Stephen is doing as he likes, but with liberty in the service of God, that is where his liberty is. He is in liberty in subjection.

E.P. Do you think that the first attack in the early chapters is on the apostles, whereas the second attack seems to be on the ranks, and God produces a bit of quality from the ranks?

J.T. Just so. Taking up the nondescript, although Stephen has a little distinction in being a deacon. He is in mind now to be promoted in the service of God, to be useful in a wider way. Satan discerns that.

A.P.T. The enemy does not like anyone like Jesus. One feels as going back to one's daily employment and household affairs of life, the reflection of the truth of meetings like this would go through, so that the

enemy is defeated. Is that the way with Stephen?

J.T. He is a reflection of Christ. His face is shining in the council. "And all who sat in the council, looking fixedly on him, saw his face as the face of an angel". It is remarkable. Why are they looking fixedly on a man? There is something in the man, what he is himself.

J.R.H. Why do they bring the same charges against him as against the Lord Jesus? "This man does not cease speaking words against the holy place and the law" (verse 13).

J.T. It is to bring out the correspondence to Christ. The attack on him here is very like what you get in the Lord before the high priest and before Pilate. The same happened before the high priest, "We have heard him speaking blasphemous words against Moses and God. And they roused the people, and the elders, and the scribes. And coming upon him they seized him and brought him to the council. And they set false witnesses, saying, This man does not cease speaking words against the holy place and the law; for we have heard him saying, This Jesus the Nazaraean shall destroy this place, and change the customs which Moses taught us". It is the same spirit that appeared in the attack on the Lord before the high priest.

T.H. What does it mean to be full of grace and power in a practical way?

J.T. If I am full of grace, I am not full of myself. It is what the man is. He must have learned Romans, you know. I believe that is the way, acquiring power over yourself first. "Better ... he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city", Proverbs 16:32. Complete mastery over myself, that is the secret of promotion in the things of God.

J.W.D. The way Satan seems to becloud the levitical power of Stephen by all these false witnesses is to be noted. There is a great deal of idle speaking

with regard to those who seek to serve, without being able to substantiate it.

J.T. It fits in here. "And they set false witnesses, saying, This man does not cease speaking words against the holy place and the law". They were false, it is a powerful weapon that Satan uses to discredit the servants. The Lord said, "Judge not according to sight, but judge righteous judgment", John 7:24.

C.A.M. So that Satan brings up a religious element to counteract.

J.T. I think it is very striking here, the wideness of the field from whence the opposition came, and then the deliberate setting up of false witnesses. It would look as though Satan saw and knew the turn the testimony had taken, and gathers all his forces against it.

A.P.T. Is the attractiveness of the servant seen, not only in being full of grace and power, but in his knowledge of the truth of assembly matters as chapter 7 shows?

J.T. That is the next thing. Satan did not know the type of man. He usually fails in his calculations in such a widespread attack as this. Stephen was like an ambush. God sets ambushes -- there is unexpected power and ability. Satan did not know in calling attention to Stephen in this way and attacking him, that it would bring out the extraordinary power of the man. Satan never does rightly gauge what is there.

J.R.H. He did not know he was going to lose his best leader.

J.T. He was going to lose Saul of Tarsus. God is a man of war. We are in a military position here. Satan is gathering his forces from all quarters. "And there arose up certain of those of the synagogue called of freedmen, and of Cyrenians, and of Alexandrians, and of those of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with

Stephen". The enemy is going far afield, as if this is a serious matter in his mind, and he must meet it with all his power. Still he does not take account of what is in front of him, that God is a man of war.

Here is this man, he is of no account, he is not an apostle, but is a man who can do great things. See the indictment he brings forward; God would arraign Israel at this juncture and He had this man to do it. Peter could not have done it as he did it.

G.M. God is greater than all the enemy's power.

J.T. That is the first great sign after redemption the Lord is a Man of war. Every attack only brought out what was there, until finally we have the martyr, like his own Master. He has the martyr's crown.

You could not have a better account of it than Paul gives. "And when the blood of thy witness Stephen was shed, I also myself was standing by and consenting, and kept the clothes of them who killed him", Acts 22:20.

C.A.M. I was wondering in connection with our secret history with the Lord, if that baffles Satan. He can see what goes on in the religious world, but I suppose if there is a private matter going on, Satan is liable to underrate that.

J.T. Quite so. He gauges you according to your history, but suppose you go in to God, he has got a different man to deal with, he does not understand that.

J.H-t. When Nehemiah came to Jerusalem to build the wall, he went by night into the valley-gate, and to the dung-gate, so that when the attack of the enemy comes, he has already had secret history with God about it.

J.T. That is a good reference. He went out alone, without anybody, a matter of secret service.

C.A.M. Alluding to Philip, you were going to say more about him? Philip and Stephen were a counterpart

in some ways. But Philip is a very movable man, ready for any emergency.

J.T. Yes, he is another step in the development of the building of the wall, a turn in the wall, a change of testimony. These are men who have the thing. You cannot say much about them; as in Elijah's case, we do not know anything about their early history; it is what the man is as he stands before you, that is how Elijah comes in. So here these men are taken up with this wonderful development in Stephen's case; what he is personally is very striking, and how his face is capable of reflecting. What is in mind is an angelic thing, it is really judicial glory that is shining in his face, not new covenant glory, but judicial glory.

A.P.T. Is this needed in our localities?

J.T. It is the Lord in judicial glory, one of the main things in the ways of God acting judicially. It is not a doleful thing -- it is a sorrowful thing, of course, but there is glory in it. Whatever God does, there is glory in it.

C.A.M. Something like the glory of the angel at the end of Matthew's gospel. His face is called attention to.

J.T. Matthew's gospel is something like this, it bears on the guilt of Israel.

A.P.T. Is this tenth verse to be noted? "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit with which he spoke". When local difficulties are protracted; is it due to the absence of this feature in us?

J.T. Quite so. Matters are not handled with skill.

There is not judicial glory and ability. We had that this morning as to an act of discipline. This is a wider thing. Stephen's address helps us as regards the whole history of the professing body. We are called upon to judge the whole history. "Wilt thou judge them, wilt thou judge, son of man?" Ezekiel 20:4.

That is a word to Ezekiel. The whole thing is judged. Who is able to do it? God is calling on us to do it, and Stephen is the exemplifier of that how to go over the ground, the history of the professing body. See how it has sinned against God! So that we are justified in leaving it, in principle.

H.M. Would the same principle work out in Stephen that worked out in Moses? "When Moses came down from mount Sinai -- and the two tables of testimony were in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mountain -- that Moses knew not that the skin of his face shone through his talking with him", Exodus 34:29.

J.T. Moses' face shone because of the covenant. This is not the covenant, this is judicial glory. Moses' face did not shine as the face of an angel, Stephen's did, because this is like Matthew, God coming in to deal with Israel judicially. He fully states the case, plentifully declares the thing. In stating a matter in the assembly, we state it carefully; still there ought to be a full, ample testimony before a judicial action is taken: the matter should be clearly defined, and that is what Stephen's address is.

W.D. I was wondering if the man himself does not suggest the thing? "Full of the Holy Spirit", "full of grace and power". His testimony is full.

J.T. Yes, it is complete. I believe that God has helped in the revival in this way. What we speak of as the 'collected writings', and ministry necessarily took on the form of the indictment of the general public position, because it was a question of, "Come out of her, my people, that ye have not fellowship in her sins", Revelation 18:4. Well, these sins have to be declared, they have to be attested. God would have that, we know what we are doing.

C.B. In that way, would you connect this glory with the cherubim?

J.T. It is somewhat like the glory of Ezekiel. It

was the Shekinah in the temple really, it was the presence of God in the temple in Jerusalem. And the glory departed from the cherub and went on the threshold, and then from the threshold it finally went up to the mount of Olives -- departed altogether; that corresponds with what we have here. I think we should take notice of the angelic shining, that is, angels are instruments of God's judicial dealings.

R.W.S. He addresses them as "Brethren and fathers". Is that the point? He judges it himself.

J.T. Yes, they are still in relation to God, but their attitude towards this final appeal makes them reprobate: there is no more hope. Paul says, "but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost",

1 Thessalonians 2:16. Before it is executed, we get this wonderful indictment of the whole position, the whole history of Israel.

C.A.M. So really our position today is in Galilee, because the Jerusalem setting has received this indictment. In the end of Matthew that is the position in which we see the Lord. "But the eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them", Matthew 28:16.

J.T. In Luke the city is still recognised, but not in Matthew. In Matthew the meeting place is in Galilee. That confirms what we are saying. Matthew has the overthrow of Jerusalem in mind, and the angel "came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. And his look was as lightning".

J.H. In dealing with the sin of Achan, "My son, give, I pray thee, glory to Jehovah the God of Israel", Joshua 7:19. Is that the judicial glory that you spoke of?

J.T. Quite so. It is a judicial matter. It attaches to everyone as we separate, as we withdraw, from iniquity. Judicial glory shines there. We do not take account of that enough. It is a very important matter, because it strengthens you in your position:

the glory attaches to you in the position; the withdrawal is based on a clear understanding of the guilt you are leaving.

E.P. Glory comes into view in Ezekiel 10:5. "And the sound of the wings of the cherubim was heard to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh". Do you think that in Stephen's powerful testimony here there is something of that? "The voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh".

J.T. Quite so. What an address it is, beginning with the God of glory and carrying the thought right through until he calls attention to the glory of God on high and Jesus standing there!

J.T.T. Is it not important in going over these matters judicially that we begin at the beginning and come on to the present moment? "O stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers, ye also". He brought them forward to what they were doing then.

J.T. Yes. They "gnashed their teeth against him". That is in general the kind of service that Stephen's represents. It arises from a man who purchases to himself a good degree and great boldness in the faith. He purchased it, he acquired it, through self-sacrifice, self-denial. It is what one may acquire in one's way of dealing with oneself.

J.T.T. The Lord in speaking about a disciple, says, "For which of you, desirous of building a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost", Luke 14:28.

J.T. Quite so. Philip, as has been remarked, is not a martyr: he is never seen as a martyr specially; he is an evangelist, the only one called that, which is a very significant matter. I think in Stephen you see one line of service and glory attached to it; the other is that of an evangelist, and glory is attached to that, and the Spirit of God makes so much of it,

not only guiding Philip, but taking him on, rapturing him, and showing how delightful a servant may become who is amenable to the guidance of heaven.

J.R.H. What do you say about his being one of the scattered ones? "Those then that had been scattered".

J.T. The point is he has no commission. As far as facts go he is a deacon, he has no other commission. He also purchased to himself a good degree, and becomes a very attractive man, an evangelist. You get more appellations of the gospel in this chapter than in any chapter of the Bible. I do not profess to understand much about evangelisation; the idea is one of the most delightful to heaven.

C.A.M. One thing is evident, he was not a platform man. He was a very movable man. It says, "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that announceth glad tidings" (Isaiah 52:7); they are not beautiful on the platform, because you are not using them. He moved about marvellously.

J.W.D. There is not much unofficial visiting. Would you encourage our young brethren to move about unofficially visiting the brethren? Meetings for ministry and that sort of thing?

J.T. Quite so. And to places that are not very attractive in themselves; Samaria was a rival to Jerusalem. It would not be attractive, a rival to Jerusalem, as we know from John 4. So that a young brother, or any brother who visits of himself, might go to a place which hitherto had not been very favourable towards him. That requires self-negation. We must learn to commit ourselves to the brethren, not trust to our attractiveness, but seek to find out how the brethren regard us, seek to meet their wishes and desires.

W.R. Philip would be prepared to come to martyrdom.

J.T. The Spirit of God has already occupied us

with a martyr. Now I want you to see a man who is very attractive in himself, the only one called an evangelist, so that I may get some idea of what an evangelist is, a man that the Spirit of God loved, He raptured him. What does that mean? He caught him away, we are told. The Spirit of God must have been greatly pleased with him.

S.McC. The idea of rapturing him away, how would that work out?

J.T. "And Philip was found at Azotus". What enjoyment he had in the meantime we are not told. What kind of a time did he have with the Spirit?

S.McC. I would like help on it. Have you ever been raptured away?

J.T. I should not like to say that. There is such a thing as having a time with the Spirit.

S.McC. I was wondering whether it is workable in these days.

J.T. Certainly it is. The Spirit is so pleased with your service. It is a perfect bit of service, an evangelist's service. The word 'evangelist' is written over the whole chapter.

J.R.H. How would you compare this with Paul being taken up to the third heaven?

J.T. Something like that, of course. That was elevation. What a time he had with God then! "Whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows". He had to do with God.

A.P.T. Peter had an ecstasy. These men get something.

J.T. What kind of experiences did they have? What experience did Philip have when he was caught away and was found somewhere else, what time elapsed, what territory was covered, what experience did he have? We are left to think of that, we are not told.

C.A.M. The word 'evangelist' has 'angel' in it.

A remarkable supernatural affair -- he was more like an angel than the ordinary person.

J.T. The point is to get the thought of being with the Spirit of God, of the Spirit of God taking hold of you. What an experience it is! John says, "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day", Revelation 1:10.

C.A.M. I think some of us feel in connection with that, we are often too orthodox, too set, and God does not want us to be like that, do you think?

J.T. I think we are to be amenable to spiritual influence. We know there is spiritualism and we know that its followers are amenable to spiritual influence. The believer is to be amenable to spiritual influence, the Spirit taking hold of him. What an experience that must be! You are outside of yourself.

S.McC. It was not that he was coming down off the platform, it was when he was coming up out of the water, suggesting there would be abnegation of what is attaching to ourselves, to our condition.

J.T. A remarkable thing. He went down with the eunuch, and he began at the same scripture to preach unto him Jesus. "He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and was as a sheep dumb before her shearers, and he opened not his mouth. He was taken from oppression and from judgment; and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living". That is something that could be said of nobody else. Jesus' life is unique, by itself, wholly of itself and by itself; there is nothing like it before, or since, or ever. A state of manhood for a few years which never existed before, and never again, that is taken away.

J.R.H. Are you linking up this thought of being caught away with the Lord's life being taken from the earth?

J.T. Yes, I should.

J.W.D. What do you say about the "Spirit of

the Lord"? Something like the end of 2 Corinthians 3 -- a category of spiritual blessing?

J.T. You are alluding to Acts 8:39. "But when they came up out of the water the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, and the eunuch saw him no longer, for he went on his way rejoicing". The "Spirit of the Lord" is akin to "the Lord is the Spirit, but where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". There was authority in it, because he was in service, but it was no less than the Spirit in the sense of the Spirit Himself who did it. There is authority in it. He was found at Azotus and he continued to serve. What an experience this was, to come back out of that state and serve again!

-.DeB. Elijah became discouraged and he was taken away. He had done a great service.

J.T. He was taken up to heaven, you mean? It is the same idea: he was raptured. We are going to be raptured, too, presently. The point is to be pleasing to the Lord. If I am a Stephen, or a Philip or any of these scattered saints, the point is to be pleasing to heaven. To rapture emphasises what is pleasurable.

W.W. How well heaven is pleased. First the angel and then the Spirit, showing what one taking up that service has at his disposal.

J.T. How well he did it. The Spirit was so pleased with him that He raptures him.

A.P.T. It says of Enoch "he has the testimony that he had pleased God", Hebrews 11:5.

J.T. He was the first one translated. The idea is that he pleased God. Here it is an evangelist that pleased God. Another thing, he had four daughters who prophesied. They did not sit back and say we are prophetesses, but they did the thing. That is what marks Philip -- he does the thing. He went down to Samaria and "preached the Christ to them".

These women, his daughters, do the thing, they prophesy.

W.R. Have you in mind that the saints should take on these moral qualities in view of the rapture?

J.T. That is the point the Lord is stressing -- what is to be raptured is what is pleasing to heaven.

R.W.S. We might be pleased if we were asked to preach in a big meeting.

J.T. That is it. He has a big field, he has Samaria; but he is sent to the desert to speak to one man, and that a black man.

S.McC. And he ran there, too.

J.T. The Spirit told him to do it and he did it.

C.B. Would some consider that a reduction instead of a promotion?

J.T. It might appear to be a reduction, but it is a promotion. It is what a man purchased to himself a good degree and great boldness in the faith. "For those who shall have ministered well obtain for themselves a good degree, and much boldness in faith which is in Christ Jesus", 1 Timothy 3:13. You are not looking to the brethren to make much of you. They will make much of you if you are worth it.

W.L. So that Philip going down into the water with the eunuch is important.

J.T. Very. He identifies himself with the eunuch; he is not a cleric, he is suitable to the Spirit of God.

C.A.M. This is one of the sermons that is printed. He could not have had any idea of it at the time he gave it. The Spirit puts on record a verbatim statement of the preaching. I take it it is a very great distinction.

J.T. Quite so.

J.R.H. What do you mean -- a verbatim account?

C.A.M. To the Athenians there is a verbatim statement in chapter 17. But what Philip said of Christ was all summed up in one word.

J.T. He preached Jesus.

C.A.M. It was not one of these platform affairs taken down. God is making His own records.

J.T. Philip preached Christ to the Samaritans, but he preached Jesus to the eunuch. He is a true servant. You take a man according to how you find him. What is he occupied with? He is not reading the newspaper, he is not reading a monthly magazine, he is reading the Bible. That is an important matter. Brethren who travel in cars or subways should read the Bible, or something like it.

A.P.T. It is much easier to read now than then. Undoubtedly he would have to unroll the scroll. God has made the Scriptures very easy to read.

J.T. You can put a Bible in your pocket. It is like a flag put up, to read the Bible. And Philip says, "Dost thou then know what thou art reading of?"

Acts 8:30. One might ask that of anyone reading the Bible today, it is so little understood.

A.P.T. There was a double portion for God in it. God was so pleased with this eunuch.

J.T. Instead of allowing him to come into contact with what was at Jerusalem, He prepared Philip to meet him. It is the skill of heaven in selecting a man to meet this particular man.

W.W. Would not that work today?

J.T. God is preparing men to hear the word of God, and He is preparing men to preach it.

The next phase of our subject is how a local company can serve a man whom God is going to use in the service; what part a local company has in that. When Paul came to this town, could the brethren help him? He would be ready to listen to them if they had anything to say of any value. So you get with Paul this sort of thing. He listens to Ananias; and at Antioch the brethren let him go, they let him go from the local company to preach, to serve. Then when he is going up to Jerusalem finally, the Spirit witnesses to him in every city -- meaning that in

every city the saints said something to him. The Spirit had means of addressing him in every city, because the Spirit spoke through the brethren that he was going to suffer in Jerusalem. He was a man of that kind; he would listen to the local brethren as he passed through.

C.A.M. He would gather impressions in the local settings.

J.T. It was all in keeping with his own ministry. He introduced this idea of local companies. Now God is using them to testify to him that he should not go up to Jerusalem. So the Lord, in order to bring this out, goes before Saul to prepare Ananias so that he could speak well, and He is preparing Saul to hear Ananias. I believe this is going on all the time, God preparing men to hear the word of God, and preparing men to speak it at the same time. It is a question of being prepared for the occasion every time you preach.

A.P.T. When you are preaching the gospel yourself, what is in your thoughts from Monday morning to the next Lord's day evening? Are you preparing a sermon?

J.T. Oh, no, I never would do that. That would take the matter out of the Lord's hands. He will prepare you just as you are going, as He did here, He prepared Ananias and Philip. He prepares you for the service.

J.R.H. You prepare yourself?

J.T. Quite so. You do not want to go too far ahead. You had better wait until you are in the assembly and you will get something.

E.F. You would not want to stay away from the Lord's day afternoon meeting to prepare to preach the gospel?

J.T. I should not. I should be ashamed if anybody found me staying at home.

B.M. Is it essential to mention the brother who is

going to preach so that he is going to be prepared?

J.T. He ought to know before the morning meeting. That is the way things are given out.

C.A.M. Philip could not have chosen his scripture. His scripture was found for him.

J.T. Quite so. I find it very good in a brother's house, or in my own house, before the preaching, to have prayer in the house for the gospel, either at the tea-table or immediately before the gospel meeting. If you are upstairs, you will get a word from the Lord while they are praying. I believe the brethren would do well to pay attention to this. We are all in it. If you go to the room, a few go, but if we have it in our houses, a great many pray.

R.W.S. What would you say to God about the preaching of the gospel in churches and chapels, in systems as we speak?

J.T. We ask Him to do things which are very awkward for Him to do. They are not normal, these preachings, and yet, of course, God uses them. But what we have in all these chapters is what is normal, precedents for us. The book of Acts is a book of precedents for saints, not legal precepts, but precedents. You see how things were done. There is a certain authority about it. Well, you say, look how Philip was, so simple. Look how the Lord prepared Ananias immediately before he served Saul! Why could the Lord not come to me an hour before the preaching? He can do that, He wants us to be with Him in that way.

H.D. Is there any objection to praying both in the house and in the room?

J.T. I think praying in the house is best.

J.W.D. You would ask a brother to preach twice running or three times running. I believe most of us are beginning to recognise that it is normal, but in localities where we are scattered, it is difficult to operate.

J.T. Why is it difficult? You mean the brethren have to travel too far?

J.W.D. In our own localities, so few can preach well enough to preach three times.

J.T. The general thought of that is Paul at Thessalonica, he went in among the brethren three sabbath days; he opened and laid down the truth, he preached on three sabbaths. It seems to me that is a sort of precedent for us. Three gives you opportunity for complete testimony.

C.A.M. Might I allude to the brother's remark about praying in the house, as you stress it? As Peter set out on that wonderful evangelisation of the gentiles, he went up to the house-top. It is a specific house named of the Spirit -- the counterpart of that was also going on housewise in the way of prayer in Cornelius' house, not in the temple.

J.T. There is a remarkable movement going on. Peter went up while they were preparing downstairs, they were getting dinner. That is the setting of the thing. It is all very practical. Household prayer is very practical. Sisters can have part in it. Special prayer meetings in the room are sparsely attended, but in the house we can all join in. I notice the Lord honours it.

-.DeB. It is a day where there is opportunity for obscure service on evangelical lines. We are in danger of giving that up and a little more occupied with preaching in the room. Do the work of an evangelist -- like the little maid in Naaman's house.

J.T. There is nothing about a room in Philip's service, so that young men do not need to wait to be asked to preach. That is the lesson to be learned from this. You can go out in the open air and preach, and preach to individuals as well.

W.L. So Philip went down; he is not asked to go down.

R.C. Is it right to preach in another locality if you are not preaching in your own?

J.T. Philip did not preach in his own locality. Philip belonged to Caesarea. What is in your mind?

R.C. With regard to the gospel, does it start with the confidence of the brethren in your locality before you go into the service?

J.T. That would come into our next inquiry in chapter 13. What the brethren think of you, there is nothing of that kind raised so far in regard of Philip. We must assume that he was in good standing at Jerusalem.

Now we have already come to Paul, then later in chapter 13 we have instruction in regard of a local gathering of saints in regard to those who serve. Hence the Lord's word to Saul here, "But rise up and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do". The Authorised Version has Paul's question as to this, but it is not in the original. In chapter 22: 10 we have Saul saying to the Lord, "What shall I do?" but it is not in this chapter. Because in this chapter, what is to be learned is that if a young man is to serve, the Lord says you must go to the brethren, you must have regard to the brethren. Saul does not ask the question here, "What shall I do?" It is the Lord's own side that is mentioned. He is telling the young potential servant not to neglect the brethren; go to the brethren, they will tell you what to do. You must regard the local brethren.

J.R.H. In that regard, something has been said about having a desire to preach in the open air. Would it not be wise to speak to another brother in the locality, and tell him your exercise and seek his support?

J.T. I think the Lord means in this chapter that the young servant is to be told things by the brethren. First he has got to learn to be subject to the brethren

and to learn from the brethren. Paul says of some, "who were also in Christ before me", Romans 16:7.

A.H.P. Would this guard against independence, so common amongst us, and the assumption of right to move out on independent lines?

R.H. Would you say one who commits himself to the Lord does it also to the brethren? They cannot do as they like; it is subjection on their part.

J.T. That is important. On the other hand, if the brethren say you must not go out to preach until they tell you, that is wrong. If the brethren assume they control the servant, that is not right. The Lord says, "But rise up and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do". He does not mention the local brethren, but He is going to see to it that a man should tell him what to do. He is prepared to do some particular service to Paul. Hence, when we come to chapter 13, "The Holy Spirit said, Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them" (verse 2). The assembly did not send them out, they laid their hands on them and let them go. There are two sides to Paul's position; the first is he is told what to do -- whatever it was we are not told -- not that you are to preach, or that you are not fit to preach. It was the necessary thing for the moment; it carried with it that Saul must learn from other people.

H.M. There was a twofold service in that way. Ananias learned something and so did Saul.

J.T. Quite so.

R.W.S. A brother was asked to preach in Summit. Because he had not preached locally, he would not preach. Is that a principle -- a brother must be asked to preach locally first?

J.T. Was he able to preach?

R.W.S. We thought he should be able to preach.

J.W.D. In a large meeting, a young brother could get little or no chance to speak, but when he comes to

a small meeting like London (Ontario), we are glad to open the door.

R.C. It seems a matter of confidence with your brethren. "Standing up with the eleven", Acts 2:14.

J.T. It is a question of what a man can do, then the idea of fellowship; we are now on the line of the assembly. The first thing seems to me, as to a service, that it is entirely from the Lord in this chapter. Saul is not asking the Lord in this matter, that is Saul's side. This young man must learn from others, great as he is and great as he is going to be, he has got to learn from others. It is a wholesome matter to start with. Then the facts show that he was with them at Damascus. "And he was with the disciples who were in Damascus certain days". That seems to be the order; he is adjusted by what Ananias says to him. It refers to his state of soul. It is not a question of his commission or what he is going to do in service, but to get his soul right, get himself right.

J.R.H. Being subject to his brethren?

J.T. Learning the truth from them about his needs, being baptised and all that. And then he is with them certain days. "And straightway in the synagogues he preached Jesus that he is the Son of God". That is the order of the service in relation to the local company.

A.E.S. He preached a good sermon: "Jesus that he is the Son of God".

J.T. Quite so.

A.P.T. All this would help us in our relations with the servants; the brethren being greater than the servant. Can you go into a locality and feel you are somebody, and, if the brethren do not ask you to preach, that they are missing something?

C.A.M. I suppose a man coming in like that could not preach the Son of God with any power.

J.T. It is remarkable comparing this with Philip. Philip preached Christ; that is, the One who does things for God. But Paul preaches "Jesus that he is the Son of God" in the synagogues. He does not ask the brethren about that. He straightway went in and preached, but he is with the brethren first.

W.L. It is interesting they both preached about a Person. Paul says, "For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus Lord", 2 Corinthians 4:5.

J.T. Quite so. I think it is clear from these facts that the young servant has got to learn from the brethren, be adjusted in his soul, and be with them certain days, however many, and then he enters into the synagogue and preaches. He does not ask them to let him go. I do not think it is ever intended that the brethren are to control servants.

T.H. I have long been exercised why there is so little result from the preaching of the gospel amongst us. Could you suggest any reason?

J.T. There is a good deal of result.

T.H. There is very little apparent result.

J.T. I would not say that. There were two hundred persons blessed lately in Australia that I heard of. The truth of the matter is that the present day work of God is carried on in relation to the assemblies. That is, in relation to what is pleasing to God; they are being added to. I may say that every second letter I get tells of certain ones being blessed. All over the world there is a great deal of work going on, but it is God adding to what there is, as we get here. Fifty years ago there were brethren who went out and broke up new ground; there is not much of that now, not that there is not the ability to do that. It seems as if the Lord is moving and enlarging what there is. There are constant additions: there are more gatherings now than there were fifty years ago, more gatherings and larger meetings; that is the thing to look at. It is a day of small things. Too, there is

not much energy. It is well to know the facts of the case.

J.T.T. In not attracting public attention to ourselves, increase is more delightful to heaven.

J.T. We get the idea of adding all the way through; first adding (Acts 2:41), and then "the Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved", Acts 2:47. He did not leave one out, you may be sure of that.

C.A.M. I do not think we have any gauge as to what God is doing. As you look along the rows here before you, you see many brethren that were converted recently, many are not very old.

J.T. This is what comes out in these chapters; we have to wait until we come to Antioch before the word 'assembly' is used in Paul's ministry. "And so it was with them that for a whole year they were gathered together in the assembly and taught a large crowd: and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch". Now we have assembly formation, teaching in the assembly; this is a new thought: we do not get it in Damascus, we get it here for the first time.

W.R. As a result, you might say, of taking on the features of Christ.

J.T. You can see how the matter stood. The scattered ones went there, they preached to Jews only, others went further, there is enlargement; we are told they "entering into Antioch spoke to the Greeks also, announcing the glad tidings of the Lord Jesus. And the Lord's hand was with them, and a great number believed and turned to the Lord", (verses 20, 21). That is how the matter stands now. Paul comes on the scene, and he and Barnabas for a whole year were teaching in the assembly. That is the next part of the service -- teaching in the assembly. I believe it is very largely the kind of teaching we have now; all the ministry is in that

connection, teaching in the assembly. Some may be present who are a part of the crowd, they have never understood the assembly, what it is to stand in relation to the assembly. The crowd is distinct from the assembly.

R.W.S. In a large crowd there are those called out who would form the assembly.

J.T. Paul is present. A whole year is spent in that sort of service. They were first called Christians there.

W.L. Do you think the teaching carries with it the idea of completing the material being built in?

J.T. Quite so. They were teaching in the assembly. John enlarges on this, calling attention to the Lord who "seeing them following, says to them, What seek ye? And they said to him, Rabbi ... where abidest thou? He says to them, Come and see. They went therefore, and saw where he abode; and they abode with him that day", John 1:38, 39. Teaching in the place where they abode, teaching in the assembly, would mean they gather up assembly thoughts.

H.B. Like the end of Revelation -- "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies", Revelation 22:16?

J.T. Quite so. The result is, "Now there were in Antioch, in the assembly which was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius the Cyrenian, and Manaen, foster brother of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul". That is what they had; what an assembly it was with such men! The year's work was resultful, so that God has something now in a locality far away from Jerusalem; there is no apostle there yet. Paul and Barnabas are not yet apostles. The whole matter is carried on and completed without the help of an apostle. It is a question of the work of God in this way.

E.F. You remarked that Paul and Barnabas were not yet apostles.

J.T. Not yet.

E.F. When did Paul become an apostle?

J.T. Right here. They are both called apostles. Later on they are sent out, that is the meaning of it; but they are sent out from this place called the assembly, which is there at Antioch.

E.P. The starting point of the apostles would be important. I mean Peter said, "beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up from us, one of these should be a witness with us of his resurrection", Acts 1:22. That is the basis of their apostleship, whereas Paul gets his starting-point from Antioch.

J.T. It is a question of honouring what he and Barnabas did, teaching for a whole year in the assembly; the word 'assembly' is used in that way for the first time.

J.W.D. Do you think that there is a spiritual arrangement of the names here? The first and the last were selected.

J.T. Barnabas is mentioned first. I suppose he had distinction as sent out from Jerusalem: he is more or less a delegate from Jerusalem, he had that place. Saul is mentioned last, which would mean it was just what he was. Barnabas comes first, it was what he is officially, he was sent out from Jerusalem, he had a certain authority. But in Saul's case it was not that he had any commission from Jerusalem; he had a commission, he understood, from the Lord, but as yet not commissioned in the work. What a lowly man! Wherever you place him, it is all right.

C.A.M. In past history he was always the first named. He was above others.

J.R.H. What do you say about his being now one of the prophets and teachers?

J.T. Well, he was. He had that place in Antioch with Barnabas. It is to bring out what was there, and the assembly there, how ornamented it was That spiritual personages so qualified that the Holy Spirit could take them and honour them -- "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them". The Spirit had made a selection, the first and the last.

R.W.S. Is that what the cycle of time brings out with this teaching in the assembly?

J.T. Quite so. The year was well spent. Instead of going out preaching further, they were consolidating ground here. Consolidation means the assembly.

C.A.M. The whole year is the entire period, like the acceptable year.

J.T. Quite so.

R.W.S. There is much made of the apostle's time. His life is so many months here and there, eighteen months and three months there.

J.T. I think it is the life of a servant, how it is spent.

R.A.L. "They then who had been scattered abroad", in chapter 11: 19 -- is that the brethren, not exactly in relation to the service?

J.T. It is just to bring out what you might call their accidental position: they are scattered by the devil from Jerusalem, they are not giving up, they are not drooping, they are keeping on with the work of God, to show the life that was there, the energy that was there, and how God honoured them.

J.R.H. In regard of stated periods connected with the beginning of things, you would hardly look for a gift today to stay in a place for eighteen months.

J.T. It is all a precedent for us. Paul was in Caesarea two years a prisoner, and more than that in Rome. His life is divided up as though God was pleased with it, like David's life.

S.McC. It is remarkable on the whole how much is made of this great vessel -- his hands, his eyes, his bowels, his mouth, his voice; how pleasing he must have been to the Lord!

J.T. Quite so. How pleasurable he must have been! And then the years of his life. David's life, for forty years, three or four great prophets are used to write about it, showing how pleasurable it was to God.

A.P.T. The sacrificial service he mentions in Romans, is that the other side -- what God gets out of the service, a general offering up?

J.T. Quite so. And then the offering up of the nations: that is what he had in mind.

WALKING IN THE WAY

Isaiah 30:21; Genesis 24:27; John 6:16 - 21

I wish to speak about the way; particularly at the outset in regard to this voice the prophet heard behind him: "This is the way, walk ye in it". And in referring to the way one is bound to introduce John's gospel, which is the beginning, we may say, of every divine subject. It presents Christ in the beginning. "In the beginning was the Word", John 1:1. It directs everything and gives character to everything. "All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being" (verse 3). And so, with regard to the great variety of divine subjects, touching each we have to begin with Christ, and as I said, with John's presentation of Him. In that presentation of Him we have Christ saying, "I am the way", John 14:6. Just this afternoon one was impressed with the thought of how many things Jesus is said to be in John's gospel. So that you can understand the exuberance of one who carried the message of Jesus to one sitting under his fig tree. Philip says, "We have found him of whom Moses wrote in the law, and the prophets, Jesus, the son of Joseph, who is from Nazareth", John 1:45. And so Nathanael names Him and adds to the already great and glorious list of the titles which John 1 affords; the titles of Jesus. It is a most luminous chapter in that sense; radiant with the divine glories shining in Jesus. The baptist calls attention to them, as one after another who is drawn to Jesus says something about Him.

And so it is that every one of us, as drawn to Jesus, is to add to the glories already there. Nathanael says, "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel" (verse 49). That is the thought just now; to

go over the ground of how many instances of that kind there are; and what is it but to draw us into the realm of His influence and glory? Not to detract from that glory, but to add to it. So you see a poor outcast woman in John 4; how she added to that glory! She says, "Is not he the Christ?" (verse 30). He told her He was; I do not know that He told anybody else; but He told her. It is most unexpected that she should be selected for that message. "I who speak to thee am he" (verse 26).

And again, He discloses Himself to another outcast in chapter 9 as the Son of God. "Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he" (verse 37). He was the Son of God; and as regards the way, He is it. There are many other things that Christ is said to be; but He is the way. It is not that He shows it, but He is it. The idea in John is to draw us to Christ personally, each of us in a personal way, to be drawn out of the darkness into the light of Christ; so that we might see that whatever it is that concerns us, that exercises our souls, will find a solution. The light will shine for us there. So that Martha says to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection in the last day". But the Lord says, "I am the resurrection and the life", John 11:25. It is not 'I shall be' but "I am". So that John would suggest to us, and impress us, that we must be in Christ in our spiritual history. We, as alongside of Philip, have found Him. And so He says to Philip later, "Am I so long a time with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip?" John 14:9. This was said because Jesus had said to Philip, "I am the way" (verse 6), and Philip had said, "Lord, shew us the Father". He would have the Father shown, but the Lord says, "Am I so long a time with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip? He that has seen me has seen the Father". He is taken out from amongst his fellow-apostles and brethren; he is just put out,

as it were, by himself and attention is called to him; he did not know something that he ought to have known. How many of us can stand such a test as that? How much we should know that we have not known, and do not know! And the Lord would, from time to time, call attention to us. We may think we are going on well; but, it may be in a Bible-reading or in an address that one discloses unexpectedly to himself his ignorance; and it is inexcusable. "Am I so long a time with you, and thou halt not known me, Philip? He that has seen me has seen the Father". The Father was there; it was not the Person of the Father that was the point; but all the holy traits and features of the Father were there; they were visibly there so as to be known. So that the Lord could say, "He that has seen me has seen the Father". There are two Persons; but one Person, the Father, is perfectly portrayed in the Son.

Well then, I am speaking about the way. The Lord says, "I am the way". So that John would have us begin with that if we seek to be in the way. So I go on to Isaiah, to point out this verse I read. It really means that whether turning to the right hand or to the left you hear a voice saying, "This is the way". This is important because it calls attention to what is practically visible, knowable, an existent thing. So that no one should be in the dark; no one should be in a bypath or in a blind alley: "This is the way". There is such a thing as that. John calls attention to practical things, knowable things, concrete things that are to be seen and heard and felt. It is a principle with him; that which we have seen, that which we have heard, that which our hands have handled, etc.; that which was from the beginning. That -- the thing. Palpable things were in a Man. And amongst the things is the way. He is the way.

This is the way. So that as companying with Jesus,

the apostles would be able to give you a concrete answer to any inquiry. "We have found him", says Philip. And the woman in John 4 says, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?" (verse 29). It is there; it is this thing, this Person.

Well, is there no application of this today? There is. And anyone walking in the dark is walking in the dark at his own expense. He is inexcusable in it; for this applies: "This is the way, walk ye in it".

This may be enlarged upon. It is Jesus; it is Christ; but it is the Spirit here now. Christ is not here personally; He is above, but the Spirit is here and has taken on the saints, operating in them, bringing out the great features of Christ in them; so that the way is visible, and anyone out of it is inexcusably out of it. There is no excuse for anybody. The matter is insistent: "This is the way". Wherever you turn you hear a voice saying, "This is the way, walk ye in it".

Abraham's servant I have selected as an example for us. The chapter is well-known to us. It is a very long chapter and a very rich chapter. It begins on a high level spiritually, and it ends on a high level, and is maintained throughout on a high spiritual level. Genesis 24 is typically the great assembly chapter of the Old Testament. There are others; but it is the leading assembly chapter of the Old Testament, and every one of us needs to look into it and spend a good deal of time in it. It is a chapter to roam in; there is scope in it. It begins with an old brother; they have their place. Abraham was old, but he is very spiritual and very definite in his spirituality. He would have all around him as spiritual as he was: his son's wife, for instance. That is a constant concern to fathers and mothers; sons' wives and daughters' husbands. Abraham is concerned about the prospective wife of his son. She

was to be spiritual or none at all. Unspiritual wives and husbands are detrimental to the testimony. And hence this chapter, among other things, guides us, parents and young people, too, as to prospective wives and husbands.

Abraham engages the eldest servant of his house. We are not told his name. It is more important that he is the eldest servant. He causes him to swear in regard to the prospective wife of his son; and the servant is equal to the oath. There is no discrepancy in this long chapter in anybody. It is a wonderful chapter to roam about in, as it were. This servant went on his errand. He was in the way; he was definitely in the way. He was under a charge, on spiritual lines. For, however spiritual we are down here, it is well to remember that we are always under a charge. Even if speaking to God in assembly, speaking to Him in the greatest liberty, that of sonship, consciously so, I am always under charge while I am down here. Restrictions above will be different, if there are any; but down here we are always under a charge. This great servant was under a charge, under an oath. Abraham caused him to swear; and he was true to his oath, he was true to his committal. He was under a definite charge from the greatest man at the moment: that is, Abraham. And now we arrive at this verse.

One could say quite a little about the graces of Rebecca. For it is not simply a question of a woman, but a person suitable for Isaac; in the antitype, suitable for Christ. It is a church matter; it is an assembly matter. And if we are not engaged in assembly matters, what are we? Of what interest are we to heaven? The assembly is the great absorbing interest to heaven today. It never ceased to be since Pentecost. Who is there here who is not in it? God would draw us into it -- this assembly matter. And what this servant says is, "I being in the way,

Jehovah has led me to the house of my master's brethren", Genesis 24:27. Now I want you to weigh these words: "the house of my master's brethren". Is there not such a house today? There is. The Lord made it His business to find it; to reach it; the first day after He rose from the dead. Some of the brethren were astray that day. Maybe there are some here tonight who are straying. We often allude to those two that went to Emmaus that day. Had you listened to them, ordinarily, you would have thought they were remarkable believers. They were talking about Christ. But they had their backs on the assembly. We may talk about Christ and His things, too; talk very like those who are with Him actually, who have not gone astray; we know their ways and their language, and we use it; but our backs are on the assembly. Such were those two going to Emmaus. The Lord brought them back; at least He manifested Himself to them and they went back. He did not tell them to go; it was the manifestation of Christ. He is the beginning of everything. He is the beginning of recovery if I go astray. They came back to the company and they were talking about Jesus in the company. How different from talking about Him with their backs to the company! What little thought or love or spiritual feeling is attached to any such conversation! People who have their backs to the assembly; maybe talking against those who are really in it -- they may talk well as far as words go, but where is the spiritual power? But now they are back in the company and they are speaking about Jesus as a Person known in the breaking of bread. That is how He is really known. They were now, as it were, in the house of their Master's brethren. That is where they were; in Jerusalem. They were not in the way when the Lord found them; they were out of the way. They were going away from Jerusalem. That was not the way.

They were far astray. They had no sense of their darkness, or where they were.

When the Lord approached them and asked why they were downcast, they said, "Thou sojournest alone in Jerusalem, and dost not know what has taken place in it in these days?" Luke 24:18. These are important people that can talk like that. But are they? They have their backs to the assembly. But now they are in it. They are in the house of their Master's brethren. What a house that is! What warmth there is there! I am speaking from Luke's account now, but if I turn to John what I find is that the Lord came. "Jesus came and stood in the midst, and says to them, Peace be to you", John 20:19. It was the house of His brethren. The doors were shut: "the doors shut where the disciples were, through fear of the Jews", meaning legal people; religious people; current religious people. They stood for that. They stood for the current accepted religion of the day. The doors were shut against them; they do not belong to the house of "my master's brethren". No. The doors were shut against them; but not against Jesus. "Jesus came and stood in the midst". What a moment that was! Well, I have to admit there were some not there; one, anyway. The two erring ones were there, doubtless. They had come back. I have no doubt that John's account in chapter 20 refers to the same incident, but the brethren say nothing according to John; nor is there any perturbation at all, but the wonderful fact of the presence of Jesus in the midst.

Why is it? They are characteristically the brethren.

It is the house of their Master's brethren. That is where you will find all the news about the assembly. They are 'in the know' of assembly matters there. Already the message had come from the lips of the ascending Christ: "Go to my brethren and say to them" (verse 17).

They are restful; they are ready for the visit.

It is the house of their Master's brethren. That is what it is; and He is there Himself. But this man says, "I being in the way, Jehovah has led me to the house of my master's brethren" (verse 27). Why am I not there? If I am not, I am not in the way. Maybe I have turned out of it. We know there were those, according to the gospels, who did leave it. They came into it and left it. If I have turned out of it, the Lord is not leading me in my way. I may think my way is all right. "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes", Proverbs 12:15. But it is not the divine way. There is no divine leading; there is no definiteness. There is an uncertainty; there is a want of joy; there is a want of satisfaction; there is no peace. There is no growth; there is no formation according to God. I am losing everything. I am not in the way.

This man was in the way. "I being in the way, Jehovah has led me to the house of my master's brethren". You cannot afford to be out of it. Thomas was absent when the Lord came in. It is a remarkable thing that we do not get any account of his whereabouts in his absence from the company of his Master's brethren. The Spirit of God leaves us with out that. We do get an account of the other two; they went to Emmaus. We get a very vivid and detailed account of them; a most touching account. But we get no account of the whereabouts of Thomas. Where was he? He was a twin. Was he with his brother? We do not know whether his brother was a Christian; we are not told. But his name means 'twin'. Was he with his twin brother? Where was he? I cannot say. I can tell you something about him later, in the next chapter. I can tell you where he was then. He went fishing. He was capable of that sort of thing. But where was he now when all these wonderful things were happening, so interesting

to heaven? The Lord Jesus Himself has risen from the dead, and moving in His love and wisdom visited His brethren. Where was this one? It does not even say that the Lord missed him. He does not say anything about him. For when the Lord comes into the assembly, whilst He feels the absence of some, still He goes on. Let us never think that He is depending on us to go on.

When He reached the mountain in Matthew 28, the appointed mountain, some of them doubted. Whether one of them was Thomas, we are not told. Very likely. Some doubted, but the Lord does not stop to settle the doubt; He says, "Go ... and make disciples of all the nations". He went on. Let us never think that the Lord cannot get on without us; not that He does not need us; but still He can carry on without us. He will find others. He does not inquire about anybody. "Jesus came and stood in the midst, and says to them, Peace be to you". There is not a word about Thomas; and yet Thomas was missing that wonderful occasion. Where was he? Was he spending a quiet evening with his twin brother on the line of nature? How often that happens! The meetings are missed because of some natural pleasure. He might tell you he had not seen his brother for some time and he thought he would go and see him; and he leaves the brethren behind; and the Lord comes and never inquires for him. Someone might think that does not speak well of Christ. But it does. Because we are dealing with a certain thing. He is in the house of His brethren and it is not the place for mourning. There is a time for everything as Solomon tells us: A time to love, and a time to hate; a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to weep and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance. And when the Lord came into the midst of His brethren, according to John, He came into the

sphere of love. Love was restful there. And so He says, "Peace be to you". There is no perturbation; no fear. No. They were glad because they saw the Lord. Think of that! It is not because they were brethren. Of course, I am glad I am a brother. But not at that time. The point is they saw the Lord. The Lord says, That is the idea. I have brought greatness in; now I want to consolidate the greatness. "Jesus said therefore again to them, Peace be to you"; think of that -- again. Think of missing such a transaction as that! Think of the Lord of glory breathing into you and saying, "as the Father sent me forth, I also send you" (verse 21). Thomas missed all that. It was the house of His brethren, and when He came into it, He came in for enjoyment; and He caused them enjoyment. And Thomas missed it. It is the house of His brethren.

That is what we get in this chapter in Genesis. I could say much more. As I said, it is a chapter to roam in; to move about in. Everywhere you move it is the realm of Christ in the assembly and the Spirit's activities in relation to it. Can we afford to miss this, dear brethren? The Lord is appealing to us. It is the house of His brethren. We belong there; and if we are in the way, He will lead us there. If He is not leading us, and we are not in the way -- we may talk well, but we are not in the way -- and not being in the way, the Spirit is not leading us to the house of His Master's brethren.

Well now, before closing I want to say a word about John 6. It is another long chapter; the longest in this book. It is a chapter to be lived in, too. It is the great constitutional chapter of John's gospel. It finishes up with the food for a heavenly constitution, the food for eternal life. "For my flesh is truly food and my blood is truly drink" (verse 55). He says, I give those two things. The chapter begins with the feeding of the multitude; the Lord does it

Himself, although the authorised version would lead us to believe that the disciples were employed; but the better version shows that the Lord did it Himself. He is carrying on; that is John's line.

And so it is a wonderful chapter, opening up the great thought of eternal life and the sustenance for it. So that in the end of it, Peter says, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal" (verse 68), "and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God". That is this chapter.

Well now, the verses I read call attention to the disciples going down to the sea. They are going of themselves. I want to dwell on that for a little; how persons in the way move of themselves. You say, The Lord has not shown me to do this, and you sit quiet because of this. But then, you see, there are things to be done and you are not doing them. There is a way to be taken and you are not taking it. The Lord says to the disciples, You give them to eat.

Why are you not doing it? Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might. And if the way is there, why do you not take it and stay in it? You will find that the Lord will lead you to the house of His brethren if you stay in it.

Now we are told that the disciples went down to the sea. The Lord, as it says in verse 15, "knowing that they were going to come and seize him, that they might make him king, departed again to the mountain himself alone". That is what He did. He did that properly. Every movement is perfect. He was going up to pray according to another gospel. Let the Lord take His way. Doubtless the disciples felt that He was not with them; but it says, "But when evening was come, his disciples went down to the sea, and having gone on board ship, they went over the sea to Capernaum" (verses 16, 17). They had something in their minds. What they had in their minds was evidently according to the mind of Christ; and

they were to find how difficult the way was, and how He would come in and support them in it. They had a definite thing in their minds. Another feature of brethren who are not going on with God is indefiniteness.

So they went down to the sea and entered into a ship and went over the sea toward Capernaum. We are told later, as I will point out, that it is called "land". They were really going to land. It was towards Capernaum, but we are told later in verse 21, "and immediately the ship was at the land to which they went". Land. That is what I want you to keep in mind in the few remarks I have to make. They had something definite in their minds. I would urge this matter of definiteness. Even if the Lord has gone up on high and is not with us, yet in a general way we know the way. It is made clear to us. We are not in any doubt about it. We take it; we struggle in it. It says they rowed twenty-five or thirty furlongs. That was real work against a storm. They had no steam power to help them or electrical power either. They rowed. It was real work. Now, understand what I am speaking of. They are definitely going somewhere; and the sequel shows that it was generally in the right direction. Let us look into the matter. What are we doing? Where are we? They went down to the sea and took ship and went toward Capernaum. A storm arose; it was dark; and Jesus had not come to them. How many of us have been in such circumstances! We get pictures of ourselves in the Scriptures. We are definitely going somewhere; we have no doubt about the way we are taking; thank God! But still, things are not clear. It was dark and the Lord had not come. They are going at their own charges. But they are rowing.

They are making headway. I can always tell where I am spiritually if I examine the facts of the case.

What was I a year ago? What headway was I

making? Have I made any since? If I look into the facts I can see whether I have, or otherwise. If you have made twenty-five or thirty furlongs, you have done something. The Lord is going to accredit you with it. You will notice what it says, "the sea was agitated by a strong wind blowing". Why was that? Satan's activities. He will not let us alone. If we are in any way moving in the right direction, he is against us. Let us not give way. They kept on rowing. It says they rowed twenty-five or thirty furlongs. The Spirit gives full credit. "Having rowed then about twenty-five or thirty stadia, they see Jesus walking on the sea and coming near the ship; and they were frightened. But he says to them, It is I: be not afraid. They were willing therefore to receive him into the ship" (verses 19 - 21). What a scene this is! "Coming near the ship"; not yet coming into it; but He says, I am with you; keep on. You are in the right direction. Things are dark and difficult, but I am coming toward you. It is the Lord in the distance; He is coming. He is not very far from any of us under those circumstances. How the Lord is looking down at every dark moment. You are making headway, that is the point. It is real work rowing against the storm. The Lord says, I like that; I am going to help you.

You have often observed what is depicted here. How the Lord comes in when things seem at their very worst. He comes in and all is changed. And now He says, "It is L" They were afraid. He was drawing nigh to the ship and they were afraid, but He says to them, "It is I: be not afraid". How restful they would become! One knows it well; better than one can express it. What restfulness! It is the Lord! It is all well now. There may be adjustments needed, but He is here. It is Himself. What can we do without Him? We may row twenty five or thirty stadia, but can we go forty? Maybe

not. He comes in when we need Him most. "It is I: be not afraid. They were willing therefore to receive him into the ship". They were not too jubilant about it, which is in keeping with the circumstances. They were under great pressure, and you have to make allowances for brethren when they are down a bit. They are under great pressure. It is the Lord. There is faith there; there is belief there. It is Himself and they are willing; they belong to His willing people. We read about that in the Canticles. He was upon the chariots of His willing people. Let Him in the chariot and you will see how smoothly things will go. It is the boat of His willing people here. They were willing to receive Him. And so we read, "and immediately the ship was at the land to which they went" (verse 21). How speedily we reach the end when we let Him in! They were willing to receive Him. It is not quite the same feeling we get in chapter 20, when they were glad when they saw Him; but still they were willing. Our salvation lies in being subject. They were willing to receive Him, and immediately the ship was at the land to which they went. The point is, I am with you. You are in the main right. I have joined you to get you to the end, and you are at it now. The point is being in the way; being led in it. And if there be toiling and anxiety, the Lord will not fail us. He will come in at the right time and we will be at the land to which we go.

PILLARS

Exodus 24:3, 4; Luke 22:26, 27; Galatians 2:9; Revelation 3:12

I have in mind, dear brethren, to speak a little about pillars, or in other words, conspicuousness in the things of God. It is the divine thought that there should be persons of distinction in the divine realm as there are in man's realm. They mark man's realm in a striking manner, as we know. The desire for distinction amongst his fellows marks, I may say, all men as they are in this world. And, of course, there is much distinction in the different sub-divisions of the world. There is room for distinction. We find, too, that the offices or places of distinction are usually well filled. And this comes into view in the final issue between God and this world. In one respect the issue is closed, for the Lord Jesus says, "Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast out", John 12:31. That "now" runs on, but it contemplated finality as to the issue between God and the world. Much detail has to be worked out; different phases of the working of sin have appeared since the cross; but the cross was final. Everything came to light there.

But in working out the detail we find, for instance, seven thousand names of men; names! They came in for special judgment according to the book of Revelation, which is the book of finality in detail. So that God takes account of men in their distinction or distinctions. Seven thousand names would indicate a large number. I suppose it is symbolic, as is "seven" in Revelation, and therefore would contemplate a large number. They were slain, it says; as if such men came in for special notice in the retributive dealings of God.

These names may include religious distinctions; for the world has its religion, and we do well to take notice that the names and distinctions acquired in the so-called world of religion are on the same footing. There is that kind of religion that is free from such names: "Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, to keep oneself unspotted from the world", James 1:27. That religion admits of no such names as have come under the judgment of God specifically. These seven thousand names clearly allude to what the world is characteristically in its distinction.

We know how that developed. Indeed, the suggestion of the devil to Eve, and put into Adam's heart, was to make men equal with God: "ye will be as God", Genesis 3:5. That would be distinction developed in this world by the promptings of the devil, by the help of the devil. For the devil does help men who lay themselves out to be characteristic men of this world. So we find Cain and his world, men of distinction. Coming down to the political side we find the Nimrods, and myriads of others since, existing today. And no doubt, what is prevalent today is in the mind of God particularly in the book of Revelation in the seven thousand names of men slain.

I mention all that as over against what I have especially to say, that we may be free from the spirit of an Adonijah, who said, "I will be king", 1 Kings 1:5. That is according to man; according to the spirit of this world. As I have been saying, the poison injected through Eve and Adam, and which remains, will find full development in him who is designated in Scripture as the "son of perdition" and the "man of sin"; "who opposes and exalts himself on high against all called God, or object of veneration; so that he himself sits down in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God", 2 Thessalonians 2:4. He

is the full expression of this ambitious effort that is prevalent in the world. He is not slain; he is cast alive, we are told, into the lake of fire.

So that, dear brethren, the Lord, I am sure, would speak to us as to this, that we may see the kind of distinction that belongs to the divine realm. I am not now speaking of what we shall be, but of the distinction that is now. We do not know exactly what the distinction will be then, but we do know we shall be like Jesus. That is a precious thought "and what we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is", 1 John 3:2. And what is involved in that is an eternal weight of glory -- a remarkable expression -- "an eternal weight of glory". It grows out of our light affliction, as the apostle says. Affliction is the order of the day; suffering is the order of the day for the followers of Jesus. "For our momentary and light affliction works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory", 2 Corinthians 4:17.

What distinctions are these we shall have! I am sure that everyone there will have an individual distinction, a name. I want now to trace in these passages read how divine distinction, distinction in the realm of God, the divine realm, is developed. It has its place in the Pentateuch. The Pentateuch although divided into five books is one book really. The writer is one; the subjects are one: co-related, but one. And amongst them is this thought of distinction, of conspicuousness.

I am not going further back than the sons of Noah. I believe that Shem stands for this conspicuousness in the things of God. Amongst other things he was a man who had regard for his parents, for his father. He had reverence for his father, not simply as a young man, but as a developed man. But his name signifies what I am speaking of: it signifies 'renown';

and, as the history would show, renown according to God.

There were giants on the earth in those days. They were the offspring of a mixed parentage. They were giants; they were men with a name, but not the kind of name Shem bore. That is what I wish to inject into our minds. "Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Shem", Genesis 9:26. He is the God of Shem; the God of those who are spiritually of Shem's line. And so we have in Jacob for the first time the introduction of this thought of pillar. It is he who introduces the thought; it was so in his mind that the stone that had been his pillow was used to be a pillar. And it was not simply to mark the spot of the house of God; it was to be it. There can be no distinction unless room is made for God. In man's world God has been renounced. Man made room for himself. "And according as they did not think good to have God in their knowledge", Romans 1:28. But Jacob takes the opposite view, and he did retain God in his knowledge; and not only that, but in principle he made a house for God. "And this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, shall be God's house", he says; Genesis 28:22.

I hope that is understood. It is very simple, but very important. As over against the rejection of God in this world, men not liking to retain Him in their knowledge, we have a Jacob under orders from his parents; for this thought of respect and subjection to parents is greatly stressed throughout the history. No one can have distinction such as I have in mind aside from it. Children are enjoined in the epistle of epistles by the apostle Paul, the epistle to the Ephesians, to obey their parents in the Lord. It is the first commandment with a promise. And the promise of God is sure to make something out of us. "Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is just. Honour thy father and thy mother, which is

the first commandment with a promise, that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest be long-lived on the earth", chapter 6:1 - 3. How are these days to be employed? Not in obtaining conspicuousness in this world in any of its departments or sub-divisions, but to have long life in the service of God, developing from subjection to parents. It is "the first commandment with a promise". One rejoices at the young people coming in and out amongst us, seemingly enjoying the things their elders do; but it is constantly needful to remind them of the importance of subjection to parents and respect for parents.

Jacob was a developed man, a man up in years, as we speak, when he went out under orders to seek a wife; and this is the result. On his way he erected this pillar, and it was no less in result than that God should have a house. One of his line had it in mind; the spiritual family thought runs down in this connection, when he says, "I will not give sleep to mine eyes, slumber to mine eyelids, until I find out a place for Jehovah, habitations for the Mighty One of Jacob", Psalm 132:4, 5. "The Mighty One of Jacob" -- it would suggest that the children take on the thought from their parents, for they come into a great heritage as the descendants of Jacob; and the evidence of the true Israel of God is seen in those who are sleepless for the sake of the testimony, for the sake of a dwelling place for God, "habitations for the Mighty One of Jacob". May we not say that this is taking root in the dear young people amongst us?

I am sure it is. They are learning to find a place for divine dwelling, and to see that they are a part of it and contribute to it. And subjection is the principle. And so, as I said, the Pentateuch is one; and so Jacob introduces the thought of distinction in this sense, conspicuousness. And he anoints the pillar.

God reminded him of it. It is a very happy thing to have a divine reminder. In our Bible readings, and

in our family readings, and in our private readings and meditations of the Scriptures, the Spirit of God has opportunity to recall things to us. It may be to remind us of vows made earlier, that we have either forgotten or neglected. The Spirit of God would recall to us distinct things. Every little bit of spiritual gain, spiritual attainment, and spiritual growth should be discerned as part of our constitution and added to.

So that Jehovah said to Jacob, "I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, where thou vowedst a vow to me", Genesis 31:13. Go back to that. It is very often necessary to be reminded, and God does remind us, of earlier gains spiritually, that have been forgotten or neglected: not added to, not utilised. And so Jacob would go back; and in going back his conspicuousness would be not on the line of a man such as Cain or Nimrod, but as a cripple. He was made to limp before he returned to Bethel; he went back limping. That is, he came back to it under the discipline of God, the severe discipline of God having had its effect upon him.

And that is what is current, in all that is going on physically, and economically, and socially; things that are happening governmentally -- they are disciplinary and all to the end that we might accept that the flesh profits nothing. That is only reached as God takes us in hand and breaks the will, the natural energy, and makes room for the Spirit. That is the principle.

But while Jacob was crippled in the wrestling, he was made a prince. He was empowered spiritually, so that he could come into the house of God in a spiritual manner; under the reproach, doubtless, to the natural mind, of limping where he was once agile. But there it was; as you all know, or as most of us know, he got his name changed. I mean to say the fulness of the change is depicted in Genesis 35 not Genesis 32. He was crippled according to chapter 32, but God

appeared to him in Bethel and changed his name. And then Jacob pours a drink-offering on the pillar. That is to say, I am conspicuous. I am a God-made man. I am conspicuous as a God-made man, not as a man-made man, not as a university-made man. They are the bane of the saints, these higher educational efforts for worldly distinctions. Many young men and young women are ruined by them. In the house of God we are God-made men. That was Jacob. God came down and stood beside him. He stayed above in the earlier visit, but He came down and stood beside him and talked with him and gave him to understand that he pleased Him. As was said of another, "he has the testimony that he had pleased God", Hebrews 11:5.

That is the point, dear brethren. I may displease my employer; not, indeed, that God would not help me to give him good service. I believe He does. I believe God helps young people in every detail in their employment if they look to Him instead of trusting themselves. Bring God into it; He does help us, but not to make us distinctive, or men of this world with a name. As in the house of God, we are God-made: not only God-helped, but God-made.

So that Jacob had the sense in Bethel in his second visit that he pleased God. He poured not only oil, but a drink-offering, which means that God is satisfied. For what does it matter, dear brethren, if God be satisfied, what others think? Not that we do not do our best for our employers; God helps us to do what is right. I believe it is a point of importance that we should be employed; and employed in a lucrative way. God would bless us in all this, not to make much of us, but in order that we might have to give, to furnish what is needful, and to give to him that needeth. That is delightful to God. A man that works with his hands or with his mind in order to be able to give a little to the need of God's people is

delightful to God. God is pleased with him and his offering.

I refer to all that because Jacob, as I said, pours the drink-offering on the pillar. I want to run on to the millennial side of the Pentateuch to show how it is all a question of being God-made through circumstances, through the operation of the Holy Spirit. Moses is man-made in Pharaoh's house. He was a leading man in all the wisdom of the Egyptians; mighty in word and in deed. He was a distinguished man. No doubt his name would have come down to us in the annals of Egypt had he continued, but he resolved to suffer affliction with the people of God, to identify himself with those called Hebrews. And then he fled Egypt, and instead of relying on his natural ability that he had acquired in Egypt, he sat by a well. And when it came to the fulfilment of his official service in Israel, he used the word 'hyssop' for the first time; Exodus 12:22. He is the first to use it. Jehovah did not tell him to use it, but he used 'hyssop', which means smallness in this world. It grows out of the wall; it grows out of hard circumstances. No doubt the Israelites themselves were growing out of such circumstances, out of hard circumstances; but they grew.

Let us not be afraid of hard circumstances. Use hyssop when you are using the blood, Moses says; it is in keeping with the blood. When you are sprinkling the lintel and the door-posts, use hyssop; which is one's sense of one's own worthlessness, and having the ragged edge of everything, but growing Godward. That was Moses' idea.

The book of Hebrews tells us more about the hyssop: Moses introduces it into Exodus 24 and uses it and water there in sprinkling the book and the people. Dear brethren, the point I am making is this: conspicuousness is in that character. All that is merely natural is put out of the way, disallowing

the flesh, for it profits nothing. God is working in that wherever it is found; God is working in that attitude of soul. So that the book and the people are sprinkled beside the altar; not only with blood but with water, too, and the hyssop is used in sprinkling.

And so it is in this connection that we get the twelve pillars; persons brought under the power of the covenant of God, disallowing the flesh as profiting nothing, and professing, as they did, to obey everything that God had said. Moses read to them all that God had commanded, and they professed to accept His word and obey. That was the ground they took. God always accepts us on our profession. History will show how real we are. We may not be real, as in their case, but still they were accepted on their profession; as if Moses were to say, I can well afford to build twelve pillars for there is plenty of material; all Israel is going to be obedient. And it is on that principle that we are made conspicuous in the service of God.

So Moses builds twelve pillars. I will go on to the New Testament, because the time is fleeting, briefly to show how the Lord in these few words in Luke indicates how this conspicuousness is to develop. The most honoured of all men were the twelve apostles; but they were vying with one another who was to be the greatest, just after the Lord had introduced His Supper, which was through the ages to bring before the affections of His people His unselfish sacrifice, His sacrifice of love in His death. They were vying with each other who should be greatest. That was the world's way: who should be greatest? It is common in man to want to be greatest. We cannot throw stones at each other. As men in the world, we are all alike, as natural men. Who shall be greatest? The Lord calls attention to what was going on in the gentile world among the kings of the earth, and

says, 'It is not to be that way among you; you are going to be distinguished; I am appointing you a kingdom; you will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel'. Think of the distinction they are coming into! But for the moment He says, distinction is not in that connection; it is rather in service. So He says, "But ye shall not be thus; but let the greater among you be as the younger, and the leader as he that serves. For which is greater, he that is at table or he that serves? Is not he that is at table? But I am in the midst of you as the one that serves", Luke 22:26, 27.

There is the pattern, dear brethren. That is the pattern. All that we get in the Pentateuch and throughout the Old Testament merges into this; it is all the spirit of Christ; it is the spirit of Christ reflecting backward. Now that He has come into manhood, here it is -- infinite perfection. "But I am in the midst of you as the one that serves". Not, I may say, that He would do it casually, or that He would show His condescension in doing such service as washing their feet; but He says, "I am in the midst of you as the one that serves". That is, the attitude of His mind was that. The attitude of His blessed mind among His own was to serve. He was surely the greatest!

According to what He says here, He exemplified what He said; so that it is, "but let the greater among you be as the younger, and the leader as he that serves". That is distinction. What a sight for heaven. The angels saw all this; they were cognisant of it all; they were witnesses. Gabriel had to do with the birth of Christ; he knew all about it. Other angels celebrated it: a multitude of the heavenly host celebrated His birth. They saw all this. They saw the Babe; they saw the holy Boy in the temple. What a thought to attach to a boy of twelve -- holiness, subject to His parents, sitting in the temple of God

in the midst of the teachers, hearing and asking questions. What a sight for angels! They gave vent to their appreciation of it, as I have said before, of what had happened: "for today a Saviour has been born to you in David's city, who is Christ the Lord", Luke 2:11. And then the multitude in that chorus, blessing God and saying, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good pleasure in men" (verse 14). It is not only in man, in that Babe; but multitudes of men will come in on that same line for God's pleasure.

That is what is going on in young people, developing out of this principle of subjection to parents, and to the Scriptures, and to the Lord, and to the brethren. So that men are being developed: "good pleasure in men". What a sight for angels, as one and another came and attached themselves to Jesus in those wonderful days of His sojourn here below. Angels watched it, and today they are watching the assembly; however little it appears in the general profession, the angels are watching it. For it is said that the all-various wisdom of God is seen in it; portrayed in the assembly at the present time. What an incentive for young people to develop on these lines, throwing to the winds all thought of being great in this world for the greatness of the assembly, the distinction that is proper to it.

And so the Lord is speaking now, not to young people, but to grown men, the apostles themselves; and He is telling them about His service, what He was among them, what conspicuousness. How the archangel Michael would speak of it! Think of the humanity of Jesus among His own! I believe He would do anything at all, taking up the attitude of a servant. I believe the blessed Lord Jesus, the Lord of glory, was in that attitude amongst His disciples.

And what for? To bring out love in Him, but also as a pattern of conspicuousness. He was conspicuous

in that, that He served; that He was content to do anything, any kind of service. As the great servant that followed said, "Yourselves know that these hands have ministered to my wants, and to those who were with me", Acts 20:34. Not only that, but he would put wood on a fire to replenish it. He would do anything. As his Master was, so was he. And what is it for? It is exemplary for us, especially for young people growing up in the truth, to delineate the life of Jesus. As was said to the apostles, "Go ye and stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life", Acts 5:20. The whole life of Jesus in detail was to be spoken so as to be taken in, and assimilated, and developed in character: the constitutional character.

That is all I have to say here; just to pass on now to Revelation, to see how all this is working out. The Lord Himself is speaking again, in His message to the assembly in remnant times. Now He is speaking to the overcomer in Philadelphia. Some here may not be conversant with these matters as some of us are. It is well to read the Bible. The Bible is no tale at all; it is divinely inspired. The enemy is assailing it in every direction in order to dishonour it and undermine it. It is the best book for sale; it has by far the largest circulation of any book. That is a remarkable thing. We may thank God for it. I believe that God is honouring those that are reading it, reading it in a genuine way, according to what is said of it: "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work", 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.

It works out thus. And I believe God is honouring those who love Him in the reading of the Scriptures in Bible readings, household readings, and private readings, and who cause the Bible to be honoured.

It will not be honoured under antichrist, you may be sure of that. Let no one think that antichrist exists. There are many antichrists, but not the antichrist. What exists is to educate us, and show us how he will come and so that we can read the number of the beast. We can learn to read it.

But I am speaking now of the use of the Bible by christians. It is painful to observe how some christians neglect it; but it is delightful to heaven to see how others pore over it, and get understanding from it; and God is honouring that very thing, and causing the Bible to hold its ground against all attacks.

So the Lord here in this book of Revelation is speaking again. Not as He was here on earth, as we have been reading in the gospels; it is Christ come down in a wonderful symbolic way, as depicted in the first chapter, and He is speaking to the assemblies one after another. Now He has come to the last one but one, and that is Philadelphia, which assembly means in the title, 'brotherly love'. It is not an accident, be sure of that. It is those who have brotherly love, as loving God first, and Christ, and then loving one another. They will understand what the Lord says to that assembly.

He says, "thou ... hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name" (verse 8). Why should I take on any other name than Jesus? Disciples were first called christians in Antioch. Why should we not be content with that? Or the name of 'brethren' which is given to us in the Scriptures? Brotherly love is what is meant in this church, which is called Philadelphia; the word means that. The Lord is contemplating someone who is overcoming. You may say, 'What is there to overcome where brotherly love predominates?' They are still in this world; they have to overcome.

An overcomer is of great interest to heaven. In every one of these addresses we have the thought.

It is an individual that is overcoming. There might be hundreds and hundreds of them, but one at a time. It is a question of each one doing it. Each one has his own difficulties to meet, and the Lord is watching him, and He is seeing him overcoming. He is not caught in the current of this world, he is overcoming. He is manifesting the spirit of Christ, able to express positively what it is.

And so the Lord says of this overcomer, "He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God" (verse 12). Think of the greatness of that thought! It is really carried down from Jacob, as I have been showing. It is a question of the house of God. Only now it is the temple; and the Lord Jesus says here, "the temple of my God"; not simply God, but "my God". So that the overcomer, dear brethren, according to this, is privileged in that way; he is a distinguished man, a distinguished person, made so by Christ Himself. He is made a pillar in the temple of His God. There is no greater honour conceivable than that.

It is not simply a public building: it is a secret thought. It is a secret thought, and a sacred thought; it is a holy thought, to be a pillar in the temple of Christ's God. You love the thought of being conspicuous there. 'You want to be like Me in serving the brethren; being in the midst of them, you served them to the limit of your ability. I know you value that thought and I will make you that eternally in the temple of My God'. That is all, dear brethren. May God bless these thoughts!

INAUGURATING CHRISTIANITY

Acts 8:36, 38; Acts 22:10

J.T. My thought in turning to these verses, which I hope will be enlarged on, is that they speak of inaugurating christianity, so to say, they speak much of doing. It is not a book of precepts but rather of practices or doings, and the eunuch furnishes a good beginning. He is only that -- he is only an example of those who, as coming into the truth, are on the line of doing; if a certain thing was to be done, why should he be hindered? If it is clear that I should have a certain part and the doing of it is not marking me, why so? The word here is "What hinders my being baptised?" It has been remarked this runs through the book; the book opens indeed with the statement that Luke makes: "The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach". So the doing is in mind: teaching, too, but doing and the spirit of that is implied to be amongst those who have the Spirit of God; and if there is that which I should have part in, what is hindering? If I should be doing something and am not doing it, why? The Lord in converting Paul according to chapter 9 takes the lead in suggesting this to the convert, telling him without his asking, according to the better version. The idea of Paul's asking is not stated in chapter 9, but the Lord has in mind that he would have part in the economy he was brought into, and he would be told what to do and he would be doing something; and a later account says he asked the Lord what he should do. As I said, this thought is found running through the book, and evidently it is intended to lay hold of us that christianity involves mutual feeling and mutual service. That is what I was thinking, and I just suggested these few verses because they present the thought clearly.

J.S. Had you at all in mind that there should be a contrast to what christendom is, to the way certain people carry on the doing and the rest miss the great thought in this book and do not function?

J.T. That is exactly what I was thinking of. Moving about one observes some who do not function at all, and who have, to some extent, come under paralysis, or stoppage of normal exercises of service.

J.F.P. Would the more excellent way enter into this?

J.T. Well, it would indeed; it is underlying it. The desire for gift is alluded to there, but this way that you allude to is the thing that underlies all service -- that is love -- and on that basic position the Lord furnishes what is needed; and the way of ability follows on that. So that every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of the Christ; and there are special gifts so that the service should go on, and why should anyone exempt himself and be out of it; and if anyone is out of it, why should he not ask himself the question, what is hindering?

E.J.McB. It is evident that the converts of Peter raised the question, what shall we do?

J.T. I was thinking of that as one of the instances; and how intelligent they were, as if they were in the current of things; and Peter and the other apostles were evidently men that could tell them what to do. It seems to be a thought running through the early period of christianity, this thought of doing and regulation. So that the Lord puts His claim in at once in regard of Saul, "Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do". He was told.

E.J.McB. Of course, there is much to be done, is there not?

J.T. Well, that is what I was thinking; and especially in the service of prayer and the assembly

service, breaking of bread and all that enters into it. If I am not taking part in all that, what does hinder me? Others are free, why not I?

H.A.H. Does the secret of it lie in baptism?

J.T. Well, that is the beginning; the thought evidently was imparted into the eunuch's mind by what Philip was saying -- he preached unto him Jesus. We are not told that Philip had spoken to him about baptism, but the thought came into the eunuch's mind. Philip does not urge it or draw attention to the water; the eunuch saw it and he would not say to Philip 'Why did you not tell me about this?': he saw the water himself. You get hold of what is current in the way of instruction -- the spirit of things -- and you grasp the thing yourself. What is hindering me? Water is involved and why should I not be baptised; so that would run through in that man's history.

J.S. Philip took the opportunity of going down with the man.

J.T. He offered no objection. Verse 37 is left out in J.N.D.'s version; it is not in the original according to best manuscripts. Philip took that man as he was wanting to be done. He offered no objection at all, but goes down with the eunuch; he goes the whole way.

Rem. He would not have lost by that, he was free.

J.T. Philip -- I think so. He went down into the water, he was not a cleric, he was not a one-man minister. I suppose the idea would be that he would show the eunuch how it should be done -- he went down himself. It says, "They went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptised him". It is a joint affair; if the brethren are to learn anything from you it must be a joint matter, you get to a person as your own equal, you are not looking down on them.

Rem. Does Romans 12 suppose everyone is doing?

J.T. Exactly. Peter in Acts 10 went down to Cornelius who would have worshipped Peter; but no,

he said to Cornelius, "I myself also am a man", and they went into the house together; so the minister does not make himself great, he is alongside those who are to be taught, and it will soon come out what he is: he does not need to make himself anything. This principle of showing the way and being with the brethren on the same level, is often quite manifest in a meeting. Well, some are holding back, what is hindering? Why is it?

H.A.H. If baptism is rightly accepted and the truth of it applied, would it set us free for this doing, like Israel, in Exodus 15?

J.T. Yes, but the thing was in the eunuch's mind before he was baptised; it is a spiritual thing, he is moving in that direction, what hinders me?

J.F.P. He does not say I ought to be baptised, it is, what hinders.

J.T. That is what I was thinking, the use of the word 'hinder'. A brother came tome sometime back and said, 'I never can speak to God'; well, what hindered that brother? 'I never have any spiritual liberty to speak to God in the assembly', he said. Why not?

J.S. Paul said a serious thing in writing to the meeting at Corinth that some had not the knowledge of God, because the knowledge of God sets a man's soul aglow.

J.T. Quite so, anyone who is not participating in the assembly, it is obvious he should make full enquiry before God and before his brethren as to what is hindering him.

Ques. Would it be right to connect it with the way of righteousness?

J.T. Quite so. The Lord evidently had it in mind that Saul should be doing something and he says, "I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision". The Lord says it is not what you want to do now yourself, you have got to go into the city. Saul might have

questioned it in his mind but the Lord took the initiative, according to chapter 9; He would that he should go to the brethren and learn how they did things, and he would see how they did things and follow suit and he went further. You will surely go on if you start like that.

J.S. Would you say these verses almost suggest the start in the young convert's heart, and He sends him to a company who are on that line?

J.T. It is so according to chapter 22; Saul did ask apparently but the Spirit of God does not mention it here. It is not an optional matter, the Lord is bringing the matter up with this convert: you are to do things and you will be told how to do them and you are to go into the city and will be told, which I suppose would be a real test to a man like Saul.

A.W.P. Would you say underlying this is the thought of authority -- "I say unto one, Go, and he goeth ..."?

J.T. That thought runs through concurrently with what we are saying; the spirit of control runs through this book, the Lord is introduced to us as doing and teaching -- He assembled with the brethren and told them things. Everything points to that; He is expecting them to go on, "Remain in the city till ye be clothed with power from on high". Starting in the service involves that you must have the Holy Spirit, and it may be that many who do not take part have not the Holy Spirit; it may be that a man who is constantly dumb in the assembly has not the Holy Spirit.

C.L. I suppose it is true to say we are under one control or another.

J.T. Well, a man may not have the Spirit, and he may not be under the control of the devil; but he is very near it, because we are told about the Lord being in a certain place and one of the disciples said, "Lord, teach us to pray". He was thinking not only

of himself but of a locality -- us. A spiritual man would say to the Lord, 'We want all the brothers here to pray'; he says, "Teach us to pray", that is, let nobody be silent in the hour of prayer; and the Lord went on to say how he should pray and enlarged on the urgency of prayer and to be instant in it. Then He goes on to say, "How much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" I believe we are to be urgent about our brethren taking part in the meeting; the next word is that He was casting out a demon: the Lord was doing it after that instruction, and it was dumb. It seems to me the suggestion is that the enemy might be working even in the very meeting where persons are not using their tongues, and not using what God has given them. It might be the enemy has come in and is doing that; it is not have you done it; He was casting out a demon, He was showing them how to do it. Find out from the Lord how this thing is to be met.

J.S. Would you say there might be one that has not the Spirit and that would be the cause of the dumb state?

J.T. Well, it would give the enemy the opportunity. The Lord says, 'Wait until you get Him' as though the service could not go on without the Spirit; and therefore it governs the position if I have not got Him, I must get to God about it.

J.S. That would throw great light upon the preaching we have; Peter said, "Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".

J.T. Yes, "in the name of Jesus Christ".

F.V.W. Earlier in chapter 8 it seems remarkable that although many believed it was not until Peter and John were sent down and they prayed for the Holy Spirit, that He was given to them.

J.T. Well, that is a remarkable thing in this chapter; there could never have been an assembly in Samaria if that had not happened. The whole matter of the supply of the gift of the Spirit brings in authority, and therefore if it is apparent that the meeting is suffering from some not having the Spirit, the thing is to get to the Lord. The devil comes to our meetings, you know, and the thing is to keep him out, and you can only do it really by the Spirit.

E.S.H. Would it be abnormal for Satan to come to our meetings? "Having ascended up on high, he has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men",

Ephesians 4:8. Is that the normal condition?

J.T. It is "for the rebellious also", according to Psalm 68, so that the gifts which come from above involve the Spirit.

F.E. Might some sin or some enemy cause dumbness or silence, as in the case of David?

J.T. Yes, that is true; one sin not repented of or anything like that, the Lord will not hear me if I regard iniquity in my heart; there are so many things that might hinder: we might have the Spirit and be hindering Him. David prayed, "Take not thy holy spirit from me". We have no need to pray like that, He is given to us, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise; He may be grieved through some happening that has not been thoroughly judged, that may be the case.

J.S. One has thought of what you have been speaking of, for those who have not the Spirit, it would be a very exercising thing as to door-keeping. We read in Scripture the priests kept the doors.

J.T. You can see that illustrated in chapter 8; Peter and John came down and the Spirit had not been given to the converts; that is a matter that ought to be observed -- they were actually believers and yet they had not the Spirit, but Peter and John prayed for them and they received the Spirit.

Then there was one man that did not, that was Simon. If he had been allowed in, there would have been some trouble in the meetings; that is the point -- door-keepers -- watching to be sure that young people have the Spirit.

Ques. Every believer you would say is sealed by the Holy Spirit, but is it to say he has received the Spirit?

J.T. Well, I would not say every believer is sealed by the Spirit because at Samaria they were believers, but they had not the Spirit.

Rem. "After that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise".

J.T. After -- it may be a month or an hour or a day; it is not automatic -- the gift of the Spirit, it is a gift. A very precious thought, I think, that I receive the Spirit from God; it does not come in automatically as I believe, and we must leave it with God when He does it.

A.S.K. There seems to have been some considerable period with the twelve at Ephesus.

J.T. They had believed and in this case, especially, those twelve indicate what is current today: the teachings are so bad, the Holy Spirit could not go into such a position. Hence you have, Jesus began both to do and to teach.

A.S.K. So that in the local gatherings you would look that doing and teaching were hand in hand.

J.T. Quite so.

A.W.P. Are you suggesting that while the Spirit is a gift, yet to receive it there has to be a condition?

J.T. The moral condition.

Ques. Why do you think the Ethiopian eunuch had not the Spirit?

J.T. I think he had, he went away rejoicing; the Spirit caught away Philip after the baptism. Well, you say, it does not say He entered into the eunuch; but I think the teaching is sequential. The thought of

the Spirit is clearly put in the book and the Lord would not let that man go without the Spirit because the condition was obviously there; he went away rejoicing. You have got to see that in regarding this matter the Spirit of God has put it so that you could see the Lord needed him.

Rem. In principle he was in the kingdom.

J.T. Quite so.

C.L. A trustworthy man.

J.T. Just so. I think the way it is put is to convey that position; the Lord would not let one go off in these circumstances without the Spirit.

C.L. I was thinking of the door-keeping; are we entitled to discern whether a person has the Spirit, on the line of door-keeping?

J.T. Certainly, it is a question of getting near people, you would hear them pray. There is something about a truly converted person, one who is sealed by the Spirit; there is something about him that attracts you, there is such a difference not only in word but in countenance and in his way -- he loves the brethren.

C.L. He would not be independent.

J.T. Quite so. So in regard to the eunuch I think we ought to take account of all the facts, the great activities of the Spirit in that case. The angel told Philip to go down to the desert and he went; and while he was there the eunuch came, and the Spirit says, "Go near, and join thyself to this chariot", and he did, and Philip says to the eunuch, "Understandest thou what thou readest?" The eunuch says, "How can I, except some man should guide me?" Then we are told the part he was reading and it was opportune: it was not an accident, it was apropos to the moment; Philip begins at the same scripture. He did not turn out one of his old sermons, he took the scripture that the man was reading; it was just the one for him and he preached unto him Jesus -- the

Person. Philip is in thorough accord with the whole position, he did not provide the chariot, he did not provide the scripture, he did not provide the water; so that there were other items beside Philip and so it is today the preacher is not everything. So he preached unto him Jesus and the water comes into view; evidently they were moving and the eunuch suggests this, the eunuch notices it and they went down together; and then it says, "But when they came up out of the water the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, and the eunuch saw him no longer, for he went on his way rejoicing". Can anyone say that man had not the Spirit? Heaven would not leave the work unfinished; the Holy Spirit says, Go by yourselves -- "For he went on his way rejoicing".

E.J.McB. His joy evidently was in the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Where else could it be? The whole case would not be mentioned like this if it were not a real thing. Then this word -- for, that is over against that, he saw Philip no more, he does not need Philip; Philip might have been inclined to go with the eunuch but the Spirit of the Lord takes away Philip, He is delighted with his work.

H.A.H. The eunuch had seen a man who was prepared to do what he was told.

J.T. Quite so.

J.S. You cannot part with one man until you have Another, would you say?

J.T. Yes -- he had the Lord with him.

F.V.W. Is the remarkable transposition of this quotation to be noted? Philip almost appears to misquote it.

J.T. It is quoted from the Septuagint, I suppose; it seems to be just accepted from the Bible from which he was reading, no doubt a copy from the Septuagint. It conveyed the truth and the truth thus affected that man.

F.V.W. I was thinking the intensity of the scripture would come home to him; the lamb being shorn here, not the sheep as in Isaiah. It would have an effect upon this man.

J.T. It would; and His life was taken from the earth.

T.R.J.H. The Lord had taken account of the secrets of his heart.

J.T. Quite so, it was a very fine day for heaven and Philip was told to leave a good work and go down there to a desert place.

J.F.P. So is the basis of the principle to which you have called attention in the individual?

J.T. I thought so; it is a very great thought in a man who is still unbaptised that the work of God is there, why should I be hindered, this is a thing that evidently ought to be done, why should I not be baptised? There is no suggestion that Philip told him about the water, he saw it himself; it is a feature of the work of God: he sees what ought to be done to him, and he says, "What doth hinder me?" So if I am dumb in the meeting -- why is it? Others are free.

J.F.P. Going on his way rejoicing, there is the basis there for liberty in the company.

J.T. Yes, the Lord had full confidence in him.

E.S.H. It says, "He that fixes his view on the perfect law, that of liberty, and abides in it, being not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work".

J.T. Exactly, and so as has been remarked these converts in chapter 2 are all on this line; they are not drags on the meeting, they speak to the right men, not only to Peter but to the other apostles. Bartholomew and Matthew could answer like Peter, it is the effect of the work of God in the assembly, and therefore they want to know what to do and as having done it they are added to, as much as to say that is the idea, they can be incorporated in the new

system, they will never be drags, they will be active as they should be, so we are told later they persevered in the apostles' teaching. They are in the assembly enjoying the wonderful conditions that prevail there -- how happy they all were.

H.A.H. Is there something in that -- fellowship before breaking of bread?

J.T. Quite so, the teaching first, then the fellowship, breaking of bread and prayers -- they are not whipped into it.

H.A.H. Can we be in fellowship without breaking bread?

J.T. Breaking bread is the expression of fellowship.

E.J.McB. Do you connect the thought of the doing of Paul with the fact of the assembly in the place, it would be appointed to him what he was to do?

J.T. I thought so; the Lord does not point out the persons, where they live, but just says, "Go into the city". Remarkable thought, I think, that the Lord had some there; it certainly did not mean that he should go to the Mayor or the Alderman, it meant there were some in the town who would teach him; it showed that the work of God would work itself out, there would be no miscarriage in the thing at all. He was led into the city, and in it the Lord tells Ananias where the man is, which house he is in.

E.J.McB. I was wondering whether the Bible Reading ought to be more instructive on that line as to what to do.

J.T. I am sure that is what it is intended for.

E.J.McB. Not a mere study of Scripture.

J.T. No, saying right things. If I were resident in this town the Lord might use what was said in the reading; but then we are to "Reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine". We are to realise why the brethren do not function, so the thing is to speak to them about it.

A.A.G. So Ananias would say to Saul, "Why lingerest thou?"

J.T. I suppose Saul was hesitating about baptism -- a serious step for him.

J.F.P. And may it be the incapacity to receive food? It says, "Having received food, got strength. And he was with the disciples who were in Damascus certain days".

J.T. He could see how things were done; not only be told, but see.

H.A.H. If you spoke to one like that, you would have to have in view getting with him, not merely to get him to speak but getting to the secret of what is hindering.

J.T. Quite so, it requires priestly discernment; I think Philip's example is excellent, he went down with the man, not above him.

Then there is more than that, there may be those who function too much, say too much, give out too many hymns or give out a wrong hymn at a particular time; such are not only being hindered but are hindering. If there is a hindrance enquire into it what does hinder me?

A.S.K. Should the priestly element deal with such a position of one of whom you speak as being too prominent?

J.T. Yes, we are obligated to one another; if we let them go along we are suffering instead of endeavouring to correct -- in grace, you know. "Reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine", if you are doing it properly and according to the truth.

Ques. Would that be one feature at Corinth, they were too wordy?

J.T. Well, it seems so, so that the fatherly qualities are needed; we have only one Father.

C.L. The Lord saw with these two cases that they had a good start.

J.T. Yes, I think they are exemplary cases, characteristic cases, too. In this book you get many instances as requiring what is to be done; these two are representative, particularly Saul; he had to begin with the Lord, as it were. According to the first record it is as much as if the Lord says, 'there is a great deal to be done and I need you; you are an active man but you must be told what to do and I am telling you where to go', so Saul has to learn that if he is to be active he has to be told.

J.F.P. So that his doing might be regulated.

J.T. Yes; he might say to the Lord, 'Why do You not tell me Yourself?'but the Lord says, 'You must learn from others'.

C.L. So the Lord would be gracious to anyone coming in in that way by allowing the brethren to handle the matter.

J.T. Quite so, he would learn his place amongst the brethren; that is just the case, you have got to go into the city. He does not even tell him where to go; you have got to learn from others and you have got to find them. The Lord does not say I will go before you; it is put into his mind that he must learn from others. The Lord saw to it that Ananias went to him.

C.L. Would the grace of the Lord flow through the service in that way?

J.T. Quite so.

F.V.W. So that Ananias puts his hands on Saul and says, "Brother Saul". We do not read that the Lord told him to say it, his own action would encourage this convert.

J.T. That is a good thought. Very often converts are misrepresented in the way in which we deal with them and the Lord is very concerned that it should not be; they have to learn from the brethren. So Philip places himself alongside the eunuch, Peter

places himself alongside Cornelius, and Ananias places himself alongside Saul, "Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost". Well, that ought to break his heart, to know that the Lord was thinking of him; and it did, Saul learnt.

E.J.McB. Do you not think that raises a very serious exercise that he would not have Ananias concern Saul with his past history or failure but with the work of God in him?

J.T. We begin from the bottom in that way. Paul later was much greater than Ananias but he knew Ananias was greater than he was once; he says, "By the grace of God I am what I am". Ananias was what he was by the grace of God. Paul says of someone, 'he was in Christ before me'; well, that is something.

T.R.J.H. You have the suggestion of a praying man.

J.T. Quite so, "Behold, he prayeth", that is the point for us; the Lord puts everything on that. We are acting, you know, for the assembly. It is not the Father in heaven, but of heaven; the gift of the Spirit is to bring us into accord with heaven, so if the Father is of heaven, you are of heaven, too.

R.H. Would the thought of appointment apply in some measure?

J.T. Yes, it is definite; there is an appointment for you.

F.E. Would the very beginning of his doing be to know His will, to have the knowledge of the will of God?

J.T. Quite so, for he says, "I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision".

F.C.R. I was thinking of Habakkuk in regard to the hindrances.

J.T. Quite so, he says, "O Lord, thou halt ordained them for judgment; and O, mighty God, thou hast established them for correction". Then in chapter 2, "I will stand upon my watch". He begins low down and he reaches up to the highest thing. He takes into account what his business might be, his cattle, vegetables and the like, but it does not matter now what happens, "I will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation". It is a rising position: he goes on to say, "The Lord God is my strength", and ends with this, "To the chief singer on my stringed instruments". A perfect thing for the assembly when I can hand it over to the Lord, to the chief Musician on my stringed instruments; it is stringed instruments, not the one he began with. I think we often allow our goods, our sheep and our business to come in and hinder, and that is exactly what he would help in.

F.C.R. This concern in the service of God must go on.

J.T. That is right, and it should not be any mythical thing. "He will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places". He is not a stranger in the highest point reached, he is at home there.

H.A.H. So the psalm would enrich the praise.

J.T. That is the idea, that is really what it is; it is an experience. As it says, "Each of you has a psalm". I heard of a brother bringing the fruit of an experience, in a psalm, to the meeting for ministry; and it was very good, I think.

E.J.McB. Very good.

J.T. It is not one of the Psalms.

E.J.McB. Is not David remarkable in that way; on certain days when he had certain experiences he wrote Psalms?

J.T. Quite so; that is most instructive -- some unique history, some unique instruction. The one in

1 Corinthians 14 is evidently a characteristic experience, a spiritual experience, so that we are to speak to ourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.

Ques. Would liberty with the brethren help to release that amongst the saints?

J.T. Just so, mutual feeling, that is the basis, I think, of the service of God -- plenty of spiritual liberty.

DIVINE MESSAGES

2 Samuel 19:11 - 15; 2 Samuel 7:4 - 13, 18; John 20:17 - 23

Each of these scriptures affords a divine message sent. The first is to the fathers of Judah as being slow in bringing the king back; the second to David by Nathan delivered to him as to his service; and the third to the disciples of Christ to elevate them, to raise them to a higher level than that which they had hitherto enjoyed. We may see that what is to be said should be progressive, the first having application to persons -- some such may be here tonight -- who are slow in according Christ His due. It was a very critical time; although the main crisis was over in the destruction of Absalom the reconstruction period had begun. We may say that we are in the reconstruction period, especially in view of the great breakdown in the history of the assembly. God has come in in reconstruction, but many are slow to go the whole way and accord the Lord His due. He is King -- God has made Him Lord and Christ. There has been a great revolt from Him; but the crisis was reached, as ever, for God never lets matters go entirely out of His hand. He lets evil go a long way at times, yea, even orders evil; it says in one scripture He creates evil, which scripture has to be understood in its context. We have a concrete example of it in David himself; one passage says that the Lord moved David to number the people, and another says that Satan did it. Both are true, but the first is more solemn because it is God's ordering on account of the state of His people. So it is that a great revolt was allowed, if one may not say ordered, because of the great declension that arose in the early history of the assembly. It was allowed to go on for centuries, but the crisis came and Christ triumphed -- not that all

were restored, but the principle of triumph was there, and it is here now. But many are tardy in recognising the full result of the triumph. It implies acknowledgment of the whole truth, that we are to come to God's choice -- He has made Jesus Lord and Christ, and the triumph in the recovery implies that this is owned, believers are marked as keeping His commandments. No one has any claim to christianity really who does not keep His commandments; and the keeping of His commandments implies that He is acknowledged as in the place of command. God has made Him both Lord and Christ. The term 'Lord' is authority, 'Christ' is operative or constructive. We must acknowledge the Lord before we can come into the constructive services of Christ. He is the One that does all God's will; and if He is to do all that is necessary for me there must be the unreserved acknowledgment of His authority, so that the convert says 'Lord', as Paul (Saul of Tarsus) did. Now there are many, I fear, who are tardy in going the whole road involved, the unreserved acknowledgment of Christ's authority; whether it be general, or broken up in detail in specific demands, the test is that I keep them; otherwise I have no claim at all, no right to claim to be His, or at any rate to love Him, for He says that is the evidence of it. In a crisis, peculiarly so where a revolt has taken place, our state is disclosed, our rebellious state; and the only hope of being acknowledged now as one that loves Christ is by the evidence of keeping His commandments. That will bring in Christ as operative. Christ dwelling in our hearts is the supreme thought of that, that He has a place in our hearts as the Christ. The heart is the very centre of operations, and it is on the principle of faith -- a great universal thought, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith", Ephesians 3:17. It will be operative in relation to others, too, as the Christ dwells in their hearts, and great things will come

about. That is what is going on, but some are out of it. The young people here -- or many of them -- I am afraid, may be out of it, and this first scripture is for you particularly. So I may say I am here with a message -- there are three messages implied in what I have read, and this is the first. The word 'messenger' has a great place in Scripture -- it is applied to the Lord Himself -- and one may humbly say that one has a message for the young people, and that message here is, "Why are ye the last to bring the king back to his house?" That was the question. The house, for the purpose of the present moment, must be taken to be one's heart, so that we must look into our hearts and see how they stand in this matter. Are others keeping them, or is there another keeping them, besides Christ? Why then should I be the last? others are ahead of me. The king says, "Seeing the speech of all Israel is come to the king, even to his house", meaning that there was a great movement in the reconstruction period. If I am not keeping the commandments, I am out of that. It is a reconstruction period now and construction requires material; and material in the sense in which I am speaking of it requires absolute obedience to Christ, otherwise you are out of it, you are unfit for the structure. So that the word, the message, is very plain and simple why are you the last? -- putting it off maybe for some period of time which you have in your mind that you will reach. But how can you tell that you will reach it? You may, in the goodness of God; for He does promise long life to young people. It is not that He means to make us earthly or earth dwellers, but it is natural in young people to see good days, to live long in the earth which the Lord our God gives us. It is quoted in the epistle as cited in the Old Testament -- the epistle that affords us the greatest principles, the most exalted truth, the heavenly side of the position -- the epistle to the Ephesians; and yet the

young people are promised to see good days, to live long on the earth. It is a blessing. God is always ready to take account of young people, to encourage them. In that section the word is, "Children, obey your parents in the Lord"; that is, godly parents would bring their children up not only to obey themselves but "in the Lord". So that as the light of the epistle to the Ephesians comes into the soul of a young person he is ready for it on account of having been brought up in obedience. But then the question is, why are you behind? why are others ahead of you in bringing the King back to His house? Notice that the King sends spiritual men with this message he sends Zadok, pre-eminently the priest of those days, a man that reappears in the millennium according to Ezekiel, the priestly head because of his faithfulness. This is a most faithful message; as it were great pains are used so that the bearer of the message should not antagonise us in any way. A priestly man will not do that, he will exercise grace, and so there is not only Zadok but Abiathar also. It is a priestly matter and the young people need it. They are so easily offended, turning away like a child because something has happened, even going so far as to say, 'I will not remain in the fellowship any more'. They do not know what they are saying; they think these matters are optional, whereas they are not optional. Easily offended, and hence these messengers, Zadok and Abiathar, would rather allay all resentment and say, Now why are you delaying, you men of Judah? You know you are nearer to David tribally than any. Is there anyone here that says, 'I am not as near as that to David'? Then you are eliminating yourself from the heritage. That is the position, you belong to the tribe of Judah, for it is to them the message is sent, and why should you be below your tribal position? You have great advantages in that the King is of your tribe, and He is

ready to say "I am bone of your bone and flesh of your flesh". Why should I throw that away for some paltry thing in this world, why should I be the last, for some paltry hindrance, to bring Him back to His house? He is regarding us in that light. No doubt the house was in that tribe, although primarily in the tribe of Benjamin, it is regarded as being in Jerusalem, belonging to Judah. Think of what was involved in not making way for the king to come back there. Well, thank God, the message was successful: the messengers were successful, David was successful, Zadok was successful, Abiathar was successful. The message bowed the hearts of the men of Judah; in fact it was David, he did it. The whole matter reverts back to Christ, for it is He who is doing it. Whatever I am doing here tonight, He is the Operator -- for Christ means that. He bowed the hearts of the men of Judah, and as you will observe, it says, "Even as the heart of one man; so that they sent this word unto the king, Return thou, and all thy servants". That is a very thorough thought. If you profess to love Christ and have Him back in His house, you will not omit His servants; you will have them back, too. It is often the test of our genuineness as to how we regard the Lord's servants; or the Lord's people even, extending it further. Some of us were speaking this evening of the marriage in Cana of Galilee; Jesus was invited to it and His disciples. Simon, the Pharisee, did not invite His disciples; he only had the thought that Jesus was a distinguished Man and he would honour himself by inviting Him -- many do that -- but His disciples are not mentioned. Here there is true recovery. True bowing of the heart to Christ, to the message and to the messengers, as I may say, will lead you to receive not only the King but His servants, for He needs servants. What can any king do without servants? You do well to let them all come, because they will all serve you. Do

not omit any of the Lord's servants; if you receive Him receive them, because He works through them. He has made a careful selection of them and they are all for you, as Paul says, "Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, ... all are yours". Why should I shut them out of my house? they are appointed of the Lord to serve Him.

Another thing it says, "The king returned, and came to Jordan". That is the next thing. You say, 'To Jordan? what does that mean?' You have never broken bread, we will say; you have never committed yourself to the fellowship; well, the King is saying, That is the idea, it is My death. The Lord is saying it. You have to go there. The King is coming back, He is coming into your house; but then if there is any movement at all, any love, any genuineness in your profession that the King is coming back to His house, you must move, too, and move in the direction that the flesh abhors. The King came to the Jordan. Now it is your turn to move. "And Judah came to Gilgal, to go to meet the king, to conduct the king over Jordan". A fine move! They were to march down from Jerusalem to Jordan. What glory shone in them! It is from glory to glory when we are on the return to Christ, when there is a move back to Christ; it is the work of God. It would be glorious to see those men going down from Jerusalem. 'Where are you going?' 'We are going to meet the king. We have already sent word to him to return, and his servants; we are going to meet him'. There is something on now. The brethren are rejoicing when they see young people moving that way, going to Gilgal, where the flesh is rolled away, the reproach of Egypt, to meet the King. And not only that; He would be ashamed of them if it were otherwise. Christ has no pleasure in the flesh at all, He has died to put it away from the face of God. He would honour going to Gilgal. It is really where

all the reproach of Egypt that attaches to us had to be rolled away, and so we can take the King back to His house.

The next thing is in chapter 7. David himself had received a message. It is now a question of a servant being limited in his service, which most of us do not like. We like to have a free hand, but God reserves His right to say, 'I have other servants, and other thoughts. You are only one'. David was the king and had a good desire in his heart, as of course anyone serving the Lord would assume to have, but let us never forget that God has His thoughts. How great are His thoughts, they cannot be numbered or counted; He is God and I am man, limited of necessity. God is God. How great a thing it is to have to do with God at all. He says to David, You were only caring for the sheep when I took you up.. It is well to be reminded of this, that God takes us up as He pleases. You were following the sheep; you are now a great man, like the kings of the earth; you have a great name. You want to build Me a house but I have other thoughts. The message implies all this, so that the point, dear brethren, in this message that each of us who is seeking to serve has to recognise is that God has His own thoughts. What I am doing does not cover all that God has in mind. Even what Paul did, did not cover all that God had in His mind. God has a right to reserve His own thoughts, the eventuation of His own thoughts, and to use whom He will, lest any servant should assume that he is essential, that God cannot do without him. No doubt he is essential -- everyone, such as David, that God takes up is essential -- God would not have taken him up otherwise; but he is not everything, great as he is. God has other thoughts and He is waiting to let them come out, and one of the greatest of these thoughts is sonship. This message was carried by a man whose name signifies Gift. He was a worthy man. This is

the first time he is mentioned; of course he had a place with David before, but the Spirit of God waits to mention Nathan in this connection. He is a reserve man. That is another great thought in the service of God, that God has reserve men and they come out when they are needed, according to what God has in His mind. Nathan was needed at this time, he was the man for the moment. He failed at the beginning, he told David to proceed and do what he had in his mind to do. He was wrong in that, but he soon corrects himself. God corrected him, He spoke to him that night and said, Deliver this message to David. As I am speaking, dear brethren, I would take it for myself; God has other thoughts, thoughts that I may not understand. He has reserve people, whether they are already in the field or otherwise.

He knows them and He may have other thoughts to set out. Peter laboured very much as an apostle, the leading apostle, but the time came when God took up another: He took up Paul, and immediately Paul is on the ground he preaches the Son of God. That was a great thought. It was the thought that Nathan had, it was involved in the message. We never hear of Peter preaching the Son of God; he knew about the Son of God but we never hear of his preaching the Son of God, but Paul, as soon as he is on the field, is preaching the Son of God, and we may say thankfully that Peter is in accord with this immediately.

He is not resentful. We are told that he went everywhere, went to all quarters, meaning that he is not any more centring in Jerusalem, but that there is a new holy current flowing that is in connection with the sonship of Christ, and it implies that the economy is given into His hand, as John says, "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand". That economy means that there are to be assemblies in different cities of the world and that the administration of heaven's bounty is to flow out

through those cities, those meetings, those assemblies, and Peter is not behind in this. It says he went to all quarters, and he comes down to Joppa, and there is a man there who is paralysed and he calls him by name and says, "Arise, and make thy bed". That is Paul's doctrine, although Peter did not understand it. Learn to do things for yourselves, in your own locality; the principle of sonship, rightly understood, will enable us, however small, to go on, to carry on; the principle of sonship is enough to enable us to carry on, the Spirit of God enables us each one to do his part. That is what Peter has in mind. He is abreast of the times, so to say. If he is to be superseded or eclipsed he is ready for it, and that is the attitude of every servant. In sending this message to David God is most gracious. I am going to build you a house, He says. I have settled the matter for you for ever; you have no need to be anxious, I have settled your place for ever, and David goes in and sits before the Lord without an atom of jealousy in his heart, he is full of worship. This is an important matter for any of us who may be serving. God may need someone else to do it, anything He has to stress; but we can be sure that God has spoken of our house for a great while to come, the matter is settled for ever -- "For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven", Psalm 119:89. His counsels are settled; not only are they going through in a general way but for each of us. And so David goes in and sits before the Lord; he is perfectly happy, never more intelligent. He never used such a list of holy, divine appellations as in these few verses; he is perfectly restful. That is the effect of this message.

The final thought is in John's well-known verses. My one thought now, dear brethren, is to show that this message is to elevate us in a moral sense, because we are apt to be very small at all times in our thoughts, and to use terms of abnegation in regard to ourselves

which sometimes we do not mean, and I do not think they are of any value at all if they are not genuine. How Paul could say that he was "less than the least of all saints" it is not easy to say, but he said it, and you may be certain he spoke the truth.

How could he say that? I am sure it was in the light of the great elevation that he understood himself to have in the counsels of God. He understood the Son of God. Association with Christ as Son settles the whole matter. I can well afford to be little in my own eyes, and it is needful that I should be because the flesh is so assiduous in its prominence in the most spiritual of us. It is needful that one should maintain the level that divine purpose has given in Him. In the power of that Paul could speak of himself as little. Paul said what was absolutely true from his point of view when he said I am "less than the least of all saints". There was some sense in which that was absolutely true. Paul says that he knew a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. That was true, too, and it gave him a lower status than that man in that sense. It is well to recognise it.

Whilst following our status or calling according to the purposes of God, we must not forget to reckon any disadvantages that mark us according to the government of God. The government of God may mean disabilities in me or in any of us, and if I am an honest man I shall observe them. God intends us to observe them; anything that detracts from me as a man in this world I must observe it; but never lose sight of the counsels of God. That is what this message means, the greatest of all messages, I suppose, at least in the sense that it gives the saints their divine calling. For you will find what eventuates in the passage -- and that is why I read it right down -- is that I am sent. The Lord says, after coming in amongst the brethren, "Peace be unto you", and they were glad to see Him; but then He says, "Peace

be unto you" again, and He says, "As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit; Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained". This is a most important thing -- that we are trustworthy. The elevation is for the moment, to make us trustworthy, to make us representative of God, of the Father, and of the Son, and so trustworthy that the Lord can say to us, "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted". It is confidence. The Lord does not trust the flesh in any of us. Take a man like Samuel, he failed as an old man, he would have anointed another than David, so that no one is immune from the enemy's suggestions, however spiritual. Even Joseph failed, he would have the wrong man promoted. So that confidence implies that I identify myself wholly and solely with the work of God in me. This is an abstract view. There is nothing wrong with the saints in this view; it is the abstract view and I am entitled to take it, to regard myself wholly and solely in relation to the work of God, and the Lord says, You can be trusted. Nothing but the work of God in us can be trusted. That is why, I believe, we get this abstract view in this message, that we may treasure it in our hearts, that we are identified with the work of God. Nothing else will stand, all else is untrustworthy and will break down. "As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you ... . Receive the Holy Spirit". So that, dear brethren, you can see how this last message is the greatest of the three. It is most essential for our testimony here, for our place in heaven by and by, for our place in the assembly, too, and the service of God. To forgive people is a hard thing, I mean if you have to do with them every day and there are transgressions upon transgressions, it is hard to forgive,

but the Lord is trusting us to forgive. He says, whom you forgive heaven will forgive, and you do not want to be out of accord with heaven, and the only way to be in accord with heaven is to identify yourself with the work of God, the abstract thought, and then rely on the Spirit's power -- "the Holy Spirit" it is here"Receive the Holy Spirit", so that there is power to hold myself in relation to the work of God, and I am trustworthy.

RENEWAL

Romans 12:2; Colossians 3:9 - 11; 2 Corinthians 4:16 - 18

J.T. It is in mind to speak together about renewing; firstly, with regard to the mind; secondly, renewal in knowledge, and thirdly, in the inner man. It is desired that the subject thus divided may be used of the Lord to help us as to the necessity for freshness in the things of God. The mind, it seems, comes first in order if the truth before us is to be understood. We have an added thought in Ephesians 4:23, to what is said in Romans 12, namely, "renewed in the spirit of your mind". But the mind itself is in view in Romans as initial; Romans is foundational as to every feature. What underlies chapter 12 is the statement at the end of chapter 7 by the writer of the epistle, as to what he had reached through the analysis described in that chapter. He had reached control of his mind: "I myself with the mind serve God's law" (verse 25). The believer is in deliverance as that verse indicates; he is in control of his mind. There is always the danger with us of being controlled by our minds, whereas the believer is viewed as in control himself, being viewed in a way, as an institution of which he is in control. "I myself" he says, will serve God's law. We know how man naturally is swayed by his mind. It serves the enemy, Satan; but as a responsible being enlightened of God, he begins by controlling his mind and using it to serve God's law. He thus becomes law-abiding, corresponding with Christ who had the law of God in His heart. We come into that by renewal. The principle of new birth must enter into all our faculties, but for renewal, we need the Spirit which is given us, which the believer characteristically has. In Titus 3:5 it

speaks of the renewal of the Holy Spirit which God has shed on us abundantly. So the presence of the Holy Spirit implies renewal in every sense in us; but first, in regard of the mind. The danger of conformation to the world is in mind in Romans 12, and the corrective for that lies in the renewal of the mind. We are transformed by the renewing of our mind.

H.P.W. What is the main thought in renewal?

J.T. It is a word which denotes both freshness and what is wholly new; something entirely different from what has been understood before. It implies initially, as in Romans, a radical change in our mental outlook, involving transformation. 'Conformation' is used as to the world, but this is a stronger word, 'transformation', that is a complete change, and it takes place by the renewing of our mind. I suppose no one would undertake to define the process of being wholly spiritual, yet it is a process of which we are conscious; it is a change of outlook. If it is not so with any believer, he had better see why it is not so.

H.P.W. You said it was by the Holy Spirit, so that the Holy Spirit serves us in this way as we are subject to the Lord?

J.T. That is what I understand. The word in Titus 3:5 - 7, is very full and covers all this; it speaks of "the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour". There is no lack on His side.

F.W.W. Where does our having the mind of Christ come in?

J.T. It is very much in line with what we are saying. The word'mind'there refers to the thinking faculty; our minds take on that character which is consequent on their renewal; for no one could have that mind apart from the Holy Spirit.

F.W.W. It is evidently a new kind of mind.

J.T. It is the very opposite to what is in the world.

Man left to himself did not like to retain God in his knowledge, and God gave them up to a reprobate mind. It is the very opposite to Christ; His thought was to make everything of God, so the renewed mind brings God in, and how important that He should be brought in!

C.H.B. Is the service of God in mind in this chapter, in presenting our bodies a "living sacrifice"? Would the mind be in keeping with that?

J.T. Quite so. We are to present our bodies "a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your intelligent service". That word 'intelligent' involves our minds. Then this matter of renewal is brought in because of the danger of the world. It involves our being transformed by the renewal of our minds. Intelligent service would denote priestly service. The priest knows what to do.

H.B. What is the bearing of the body on it?

J.T. The body is the vehicle of all this. It is a substantial thought, a concrete thought. The apostle's desire was that our whole spirit, and soul, and body should be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ; 1 Thessalonians 5:23. We cannot be in the service of God in a practical way apart from our bodies. We need them in fact for everything the service of God requires. The point is our attitude of mind in the presentation; the attitude in which we hold our bodies, as already presented to God, never to be recalled. Our baptism sets it out. Our bodies are called 'living', they can only be living as Christ is in them, and the Spirit has scope in us. "If Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness", Romans 8:10. Here, it is a "living sacrifice".

W.G.L. Is it seen in the book of Job that there is a conflict with the mind? He was suffering in body and mind.

J.T. Yes; it may be that discipline is needed, but

that in itself would not do. The body is not made alive by discipline, but by the Spirit. The discipline Job went through set him free, but the body is set free by the Spirit. Our bodies are still mortal, but living as we have the Spirit.

Ques. Should our thinking and outlook be secured in relation to God's outlook?

J.T. Yes, the body is brought into activity by Christ being in us. The body by its natural appetite and feelings is rendered dead, but the Spirit is life, because Christ is in us. The Samaritan woman in John 4 is a good illustration of it. She had a body that had been discredited, but the Lord instructed her as to the use of her body; it was to be a vessel of living water. She takes that in, and leaves her waterpot, the natural thing, understanding that her body was a vessel. But how could that body become dead? The later statement, that she went to the men, means that she was in deliverance; she was immune from their influence. She influences them for Christ, saying, "Is not he the Christ?" The secret of that was that Christ was in her.

Eu.R. Would it mean that He was in her affections?

J.T. Yes. She had not the Spirit yet, but the light of living water; her body was to be the vessel of it. The way she speaks of Christ (and she is the only one to whom He communicates that He is the Christ), was because He was in her, and she could present her body a living sacrifice, and her testimony was effective on these lines.

H.M.S. The renewing of the mind here has a very definite object, that we might prove the will of God; is that not to be proved apart from this renewal?

J.T. Apparently not: "that ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God" -- "to your proving" it means; it is an element in the

proving; it is taken in by our minds, but the proving it lies in a renewed mind.

H.P.W. Supposing the gospel really lays hold of a person, there is from the outset a completely different outlook; this is a process that goes on from that time, and works out a transformation in the believer

J.T. That is how it seems to stand. It is a process: "to your proving", that is, you are in the process. In chapter 7 we have the remarkable account of the proving our inward state, and how one gets out of it by the process of having the mind under control. Then the next thing is that the mind is to be renewed to the proving of "the good and acceptable and perfect will of God"; every moment we realise that the will of God is good and acceptable and perfect in itself.

J.T.Jr. Is this an appeal to us on the responsible side? If so, where does the work of the Spirit come in?

J.T. The work of the Spirit is contingent upon our acceptance of responsibility. Man is a responsible being, and as indicated earlier in the book, scope is made for the Spirit. The Spirit is here in abundance, but our wills interfere; the un-renewed mind would interfere. The truth is progressive; the more we advance in this, the more rapid will be the vessel's formation for the will of God -- that "good and acceptable and perfect" will of God. It arrives at what Christ loved.

Eu.R. Does it involve that the Spirit is free in an experimental way? The princes digged the well at the direction of the lawgiver -- as in subjection to the law.

J.T. Yes, it was at the direction of the lawgiver. We have in Hagar, for instance, the thought of responsibility accepted. She cast her child away, relinquishing responsibility, as much as to say, My case is impossible, I cannot go on. She cast the child

under one of the shrubs, but the angel says, "Arise, take the lad, and hold him in thy hand", Genesis 21:18. 'Hold him in your hand' is the acceptance of responsibility. Then the angel showed her the well. The well is available as I accept my responsibility. So when you come to Moses, he sat by a well; he had not given up his responsibility. In Egypt he went out to visit his brethren, that was responsibility accepted; he knew it. As a child "fair to God" he was to be for God. His mother had that idea. There were three women engaged in his salvation. But when he came to years, he relinquished his place in Pharaoh's house, and went out to see his brethren. They did not accept him; they did not discern what God had put upon him; he went and sat by a well; the fulfilling of his responsibility depended on that well. There must be the acceptance of responsibility, and moving on that we get the Spirit. Moses' mind must have changed for he was a great man in Egypt, brought up in Pharaoh's house. He told Jehovah he could not speak. There was a change in his outlook, but forty years were needed before he became the great vessel we read of in Scripture. Anyone could see what a change had come about, and that is the idea in each of us.

Eu.R. Is Romans 12:3 a little like that -- "not to have high thoughts"?

J.T. Quite so. He is controlling his mind, for the mind is very variable unless kept in control. The control makes it subject. So it says, "Through the grace which has been given to me, to every one that is among you, not to have high thoughts above what he should think; but to think so as to be wise, as God has dealt to each a measure of faith". That is how we come into the service of God: each learning his measure.

H.M.S. Can you tell us what is available for this -- we want some substance for renewal?

J.T. Well, it is the Spirit. It is a question of the action of the Spirit on the mind. You cannot define the mind; it is a faculty the Spirit can act upon. It involves the person -- spirit, soul and body. The mind there would be associated with the spirit. Man being a tripartite being, spirit, soul and body; his spirit is himself, it includes the mind and soul; but it is the higher part of man, that in which he is in touch with God. The spirit returns to God who gave it; Ecclesiastes 12:7. The mind is subservient to it.

H.B. So God is mentioned four times in these three verses. Does what you were saying in the beginning come in here -- the compassions of God, acceptable to God, the perfect will of God, and, as God hath dealt to each a measure of faith? Would that be in contrast to the world?

J.T. Very good; verse 1 speaks of the compassions of God, and you can see what the gospel has done for man, so complete is the change. Naturally, left to himself, man shuts God out; he did not like to retain God in his thoughts, but how different this is! These compassions are presented in the teaching of the book; it is putting you almost in a bond although beseeching you, but morally you are under a bond by the compassions of God.

Ques. Would the Spirit of God represent the fine feelings of God? The Spirit of God moving over the face of the deep -- would the compassions of God be in line with that?

J.T. I suppose the Spirit of God is God Himself. In that way He is distinct, as the Father and the Son, but expressive of divine feelings and sympathies; hovering over the face of the deep and then striving with men.

H.M.S. We are to think so as to be wise, what are we to think about?

J.T. You are to do it; wise,"that is the believer; to" think so as to be "I myself". It is not

simply 'I', but myself in consciousness, intelligently. Now what are you going to do with the mind? To serve God's will. It is a question of the attitude in which you hold it, so you are thinking in order that you might be wise, and there is exercise in every difficulty. That is how to develop wisdom. God gives to each a measure of faith, and I want to understand that, so that I am not inflated by anything; I think so as to be wise.

Ques. Would a measure of faith be given in relation to verse 1?

J.T. Yes. You reach the body that way, the one body in Christ; wise thinking leads us to that. It gives us no status in the world, but outside the world. On the line of thinking wisely, we look at the brethren in that way: others have the Spirit as well as I.

W.G.L. Would this be seen at the end of Exodus?

J.T. Quite so. The idea of wisdom runs through Exodus, especially as to building.

S.C.T. Do we come into this in Philippians 4:8, "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true ... think on these things"? Is this something for the mind?

J.T. That is good; it is quite a field for the mind. The mind is occupied with what is positively good; you become nourished in that way.

H.M.S. Can we not say that the will of God which is to occupy our minds is of great variety, and we are to understand there is plenty to think about?

J.T. Yes, indeed. Man shut God out of his world, but here you come into God's world. The newspapers show every day how much there is to think about in man's world, but this line of thinking brings us into God's world, which is infinite.

Ques. Would you say that the instructions given here are a regulation of the mind, so that we do not overstep the mark with regard to spiritual matters?

J.T. I think the one body in Christ would put us

in relation with one another on the line we are speaking about -- thinking of others.

C.H.B. Is the contemplation of Christ according to Philippians 2 a governing principle? This mind being in Him.

J.T. Quite so; that rule of which we are speaking brings us on to that. We can understand Philippians is in advance of Romans, but the same thought runs through, and Christ is the expression of it all. "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus;"

Philippians 2:5. That is the readiness to descend. It is a mind free from rivalry and division. He thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but emptied Himself, taking a bondman's form, and being found in fashion as a Man, He humbled Himself "becoming obedient even unto death, and that the death of the cross". It is the descending mind that Philippians treats of there. Every man, beginning with Adam, had an ascending mind; Satan put that into his mind, "Ye will be as God". The Lord Jesus is the opposite to that. It is our salvation, for naturally we rise in ambition, but the mind of Christ is descending. He ascends, too, and rightly, for He is divine; He ascends to His Father; but this is to bring out the kind of mind there is in Christ.

F.A.P. Does the beginning of Colossians 3 suggest the course the renewed mind would take when it says, "Have your mind on the things that are above"?

J.T. Exactly; it shows you have authority over your mind and can set it where you please.

A.T.S. Would this bring in the recovery of man for God? We read of men's minds being blinded by the god of this world; 2 Corinthians 4:4.

J.T. Yes, making room for God; in chapter 1 He is shut out, but here He is brought in.

F.A.P. "Going along with the lowly" (verse 16), is that definitely moving along to God?

J.T. Yes, like Jesus. He is found in figure as a Man (Philippians 2), "taking his place in the likeness of men", that is not simply in man's race, but in what men are ordinarily, apart from sin. There was no attempt to better His circumstances; He came in a Man among men, holy, harmless, undefiled, but a Man amongst men, making no attempt to be superior on human lines.

J.T.Jr. Will you say a word on transformation? What is the idea of it?

J.T. It is a substantial thing -- a more substantial thought, corresponding to what we get elsewhere, "transformed ... from glory to glory", 2 Corinthians 3:18. It is a real change.

J.P.H. We get help as we commit our minds to these things; it says, "that ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God". Is there any proving unless we commit ourselves on this line?

J.T. Well, you can see what a great man a christian is, what a victorious man he is! He is in control of himself. The demoniac would be the extreme opposite: he was a man out of control, he was under the control of the devil. All the efforts of man's world failed to keep that man right; his name was Legion. But he is delivered, and found sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind.

What a victorious thing that was! "Sitting ... at the feet of Jesus". What will not Jesus make out of such a man? He is one of the parts of the assembly. Romans builds up assembly material. Luke 8 shows us the component parts of the assembly in the man in his right mind; the woman who told all the truth, and then the girl raised up by Christ. These are the component parts of the assembly: the man, the woman and the child. The man is in control of his mind, he is "sitting, clothed and sensible, at the feet of Jesus". "God has not given us a spirit of cowardice,

but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion" -- that is, a sound mind. So it is complete victory; one moves about here in this world for God with the mind in control.

F.A.P. Would sitting at the feet of Jesus, as the demoniac was, be in contrast to Eve, who came under the influence of Satan by way of aspirations?

J.T. Quite so. Then Corinthians links the assembly and the thought of wisdom: "Christ Jesus, who has been made to us wisdom from God",

1 Corinthians 1:30. That is what He is towards us taken in by the mind; we develop on these lines by the Spirit.

Now the next point is renewed knowledge according to Colossians 3:10, "having put on the new (man), renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him". We are here evidently in advance on Romans, for it is the kind of knowledge that is renewed: "renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that created him"; that is, he is to be in the image of God.

Ques. This would be the very opposite to Genesis 3?

J.T. "God created Man in his image", we read in Genesis 1:27, "in the image of God created he him". He lost that through his mind and went so far as to exclude God from his thoughts, a terrible thing! But the new man is fresh, like a young man; it is not aged, and never will be. In the knowledge there is the representation of God; it is "him that created him" so the new man is a creation, as the old was. Our Creator would have us to represent Him permanently; hence the importance of controlling our minds in order to develop in this knowledge.

H.M.S. What a great height and dignity attaches to the Christian life -- the image of God.

J.T. How important in any of our localities is our representation of God in our knowledge. The Lord

speaks in John 10 about knowing the sheep and the sheep knowing Him, as the Father knows Him and He knows the Father (verses 14, 15). That is remarkable. It is an elevated kind of knowledge into which we come.

Rem. You are brought into something, that is, full knowledge according to Christ; you are brought 'into' something that is already there.

J.T. Quite so: that kind of knowledge. It is the complete victory of God on the line of knowledge in man.

S.C.T. In Jeremiah 9:24, we have "Let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me".

J.T. It works out that way; it is a question of the new man here, young, and fresh and delightful to God. It is said of the Lord Jesus in Mark 10, that He looked on the young man and loved him. How difficult it was for that young man to leave all; he had much wealth and went away grieved. The Lord could not look on him again and love him; he had turned away from the best possible portion. But the new man is delightful to God; you want to be in that. There is only one new man.

C.H.B. Is power for service found in God's knowledge?

J.T. It is quite clear that we must know God to worship and serve Him. Paul said at Athens where they had an altar to the unknown God, "Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship ..."; therefore their worship was derogatory to God. The new man is renewed into full knowledge. The word new in 'renewed' is different from that used of the new man; it means different from any other knowledge; it is "renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him" -- that is, made entirely new, not like anything that has ever been before. It is to bring us into the greatness of the

position in the assembly, as renewed into the kind of knowledge that is in our Creator. The Lord puts it in John 10:15, "As the Father knows me and I know the Father". John 17 tells us "that the love with which thou halt loved me may be in them and I in them". So all this is to bring out representation of God in the sense of knowledge; we are like Him, like our Creator.

Eu.R. "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew ..."

J.T. You can scarcely find the Greeks today, the Jews are the same as they used to be, but verse 11 shows such nationalities from the highest to the lowest in the scale, from the standpoint of knowledge; they do not appear in the new man; they appear in this world, but not in God's world. This is knowledge after the Creator.

J.T.Jr. Is it distinct from "Ye have an unction from the Holy One, and know all things"?

J.T. It goes with this; it is from "the Holy One". The point in renewal here is that it is made different; "Having put on the new, renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him" -- the image of God, whether it be God or Christ. John would link both. So in his gospel in chapter 20, we have the idea of representation. Throughout the gospel we have confirmation in the position taken up by the believer; the Lord would hold Nathanael in the position in which he has come out to Him; and again in chapter 9, the man is held in the knowledge of the Son of God. We are held outside the world by the knowledge Christ gives to us. In chapter 20 He comes and stands in the midst, and all is well; there is no complaint: the disciples say nothing; Christ says everything, but they are to be held in that joyous state. The Lord confirms them, saying, "Peace" twice. Then He says, "As the Father sent me forth, I also send you". They are to be representative here, and as representative they have got His

Spirit; He breathes into them. Every representative of Christ must be like Him by His Spirit; our administration for the assembly lies there: "whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained". He is represented, as the Father was in Him, so we are representative of Him.

F.W.O. Is that why this section begins with lying, which brings in misrepresentation?

J.T. Quite so; no liar can represent God. Satan is a liar, he is against God; and all lying is a misrepresentation of God.

F.W.O. I suppose the kind of person who has put on the new man, and is renewed, is still capable of acting so as to misrepresent, unless he is under control so as not to do so?

J.T. That is an important matter. The new man is under God's eye down here; we have put off the old, and put on that which is new and fresh. There is only one new man, but everyone that has part in it has Christ in him; Christ is "everything, and in all". What a renewal! What a world where Christ is everything! He is all in all. We all love Him. These traits are seen in us; He is all to us objectively, and He is in us subjectively.

Rem. Is not the great point, therefore, to get our minds off things here, and on to that Person?

J.T. That is just what it is. All ministry has this in mind. Christ is presented and becomes more and more to you, and then He fills you. I suppose that was so with the woman of Samaria, Christ was in her -- He was filling her, so she says to the men, "Come, see a man" -- and they recognise her saying and come to Him themselves. Then the Lord abode there two days in answer to their request. She had said He "told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?" But they say, "We have heard him ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the

Saviour of the world". They get a greater thought of Him; He is everything.

H.M.S. Is all this involved in the renewal of the inner man?

J.T. That is the next thing. In 2 Corinthians 4:16 we read, "Wherefore we faint not; but if indeed our outward man is consumed, yet the inward is renewed day by day". It goes on to say, "While we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen". The 'looking' here corresponds with the word in Colossians, "Have your mind on the things that are above"; here we are looking at the unseen eternal things.

H.B. Why is this put at the close of the chapter?

J.T. I think the apostle is coming on to dissolution, coming on to death if necessary. He has already said our bodies are mortal; that means we are liable to death at any time, according to the will of God. This section should be read by the elder ones, but by all, so as to see what we are building up and what provision we are making. Are we making provision for a proper exit either by death, or the Lord's coming? Unless we are, we shall not care to leave this scene; if we are not looking at unseen things, we shall not be ready for them. The renewal of the inner man would prepare us for that -- for the crossing of the Jordan. It is well to ask, "How wilt thou then do in the swelling of the Jordan?" Jeremiah 12:5. It is an important matter to lay up in store on the banks of the Jordan. There is the building up of the inner man. We all experience as we get on in years, that death is working in us more and more.

Eu.R. Colossians says, "Have your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth". We look here on the things above, keeping constant control of our minds, "while we look not at the things ... seen".

J.T. The "inward man" being renewed day by

day, makes it a daily matter. Can I discern that freshening of my inner being, governed by what one is spiritually?

J.T-r. Is it by the work of God in us, or is it by way of responsibility?

J.T. There is the idea of responsibility going right through all this. It is put, "Wherefore we faint not; but if indeed our outward man is consumed, yet the inward is renewed day by day". But then there is a 'for'. "For our momentary and light affliction works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen". It is very much in line with the end of the previous chapter; our transformation is by looking at the glory of the Lord, but it is "by the Lord the Spirit": He has to do with it. The renewal is by God, and evidently because we are looking. It is the way we reckon things and look at things -- eternal things.

F.A.P. Would not Jacob be an example of this? There is the evidence of the outward perishing; he worshipped leaning upon his staff.

J.T. That is a very good illustration; leaning on his staff suggests experience gained. How are we developing? What have I got at the end of my days to lean upon? The Lord, of course. This building up of the constitution by renewal of the inner man, would make one conscious of power in the soul.

H.P.W. No doubt many of us are greatly challenged, as to whether we really understand the renewal day by day, governed by the outlook of the soul.

J.T. What would help is the daily offerings in Numbers 28, the morning and evening lamb. The evening lamb would mean that I have lost nothing, possibly there is more than I had in the morning. Renewal must have gone on during the day, or I should be drooping in the evening and unable to rise

to the height of my calling. The evening lamb would keep me balanced day by day. These offerings come daily in our worship and soul experience. Then, too, there are the weekly and monthly offerings.

H.P.W. The apostle speaks of our "light affliction"; the enemy would use the sorrows of the saints to drag down their hearts; he is making an attack on the joy of the saints.

J.T. There is a great deal of death and illness and the like -- how are we going to meet it? If we are looking at seen things we are not meeting it at all; but looking at the unseen, there is the renewal day by day of the inner man; so that whatever may come, even dissolution, I am ready for it.

Eu.R. Would you say a word as to what is involved in the "inward man"?

J.T. I think it is what you are in faith, grasping the divine idea in Christ; we are to be like Him. It is the outlook we have as to the divine thought for us. So it says, "For we know that if our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens". That is God's mind. It is not exactly material, for it is not a body coming down. We get the thought of resurrection, meaning that we come out of our graves, but you grasp what we are going to be in heaven. That is what is coming from heaven. Think of what I am going to be! This chapter, 2 Corinthians 4, shows I am mortal actually and accept it. "We who live are always delivered unto death on account of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh" (verse 11).

That is the reflex really of what I am above. "We shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is",

1 John 3:2. That enters into my inner man; that is what I am in my inner thoughts. All else is disappearing. This "inward man" means I will hold all things by faith and the power of the Spirit. It is

only a moment and this shell will disappear, and death will be swallowed up in victory.

W.G.T. Would Gideon's three hundred men give the idea; the vessels are broken that the light may shine out?

J.T. Yes; the more the vessels are broken the more the light shines out.

S.H.G. Do we gather that the inner man referred to in Ephesians 3:16, is one and the same thing with this?

J.T. I think so. The word 'house' is an allusion to our bodies; but the inner man is the grasp you have of God's mind for you. Christ is the model Man.

THE LORD'S SERVANTS LEARNING TOGETHER

Mark 3:13 - 19; Mark 6:30 - 32; 1 Samuel 19:19 - 24

J.T. These scriptures speak of the Lord's servants learning together -- learning under His influence. Firstly it is the formal selection in the mountain. It is said of them He appointed twelve that they might be with Him and that He might send them to preach with power to heal diseases and to cast out demons. Then in chapter 6 we have them as servants returning. It is said the apostles are gathered to Jesus, and He would have them to depart into a desert place to rest a little. That is, that they might be with Him and it is that they might rest with Him in a desert place. Then finally the actual service of prophesying carried on typically under Christ, for it is said that there was a company of prophets prophesying and Samuel standing as president over them. That is what is in mind.

F.I. You mean that the servant is presented here as not taken on exactly in an individual way, but taken on as moving in relation to others under the Lord.

J.T. Yes, that is the thought, no doubt, in Mark. We only find them in this company in Mark. The Lord intends that there should be unity of the faith in serving in this way. They serve unitedly understanding the truth. There would be no diversity. Servants should take on the character of Christ. They should be with Him, and with Him they take on His spirit. There should be no independency amongst those who serve. If there is cleavage among them, there will soon be cleavage amongst the brethren as a whole; so that in a locality such as this, with the brethren in subdivisions, it is important to observe the whole and to come under the influence of Christ.

Subdivisions should not make for independency or cleavage.

The position is morally elevated -- that would be the thought in the mountain. He goes up into the mountain and calls whom He Himself would. They went to Him, it says, and He appointed twelve so that they might be with Him that He might send them to preach and to have power to heal diseases and to cast out demons.

F.I. What you have in mind is that although there may be three subdivisions the thought is that they should move as a whole.

J.T. That is the thought -- whether those who lead amongst them or the saints as a whole. Those who lead, in general, give character to the saints.

The Lord prayed to His Father that they might be one, as He and the Father are one. The great thought of oneness proceeds from God the Father. There is perfect unity in the divine Persons -- the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Unless those who are leading are united, the saints will not be.

-.M. So that recognition of divine sovereignty would help us to move together as one?

J.T. You are honouring Christ if you are honouring His selection in moving with others He has called.

It all refers back to God. There is no divergence as referring to God and to Christ and the Spirit. The unity of the Godhead works out in us by the Spirit, so we are enjoined to keep the unity of the Spirit and also to keep the unity of the faith. The unity of the Spirit is to do with the affections. The unity of the faith has to do with what we hold as teaching.

E.H. Would the unity of the faith work out in all saying the same thing?

J.T. That is good. It is a remarkable statement in Philippians 2 -- united spirit and mind. So known to each other that we discern each other's minds --

thinking the same thing -- not only saying but thinking.

A.H. Do you think that Mark presents this with a view to helping in the service?

J.T. I think he intends to show the ground upon which we are. All are called at the same time and have the same advantages. All had been there with Christ upon the mountain and all are sent out by Him, knowing each other and under the influence of Christ. We are like each other in the service, each having his own distinction, of course. The distinctions here are brought out -- Peter and Boanerges. There are distinctions, but all coming out from under the influence of Christ together.

A.B. Is there any reason why the Lord chose twelve?

J.T. It is a numeral that has a great place in Scripture. It is the most divisible of all numbers. It would allude to what we are saying, the prevalence of love as under the influence of Christ. We are to love one another, and as thus divisible we see how the Lord can link us for service according to His thought without any danger of rivalry. I think that is the thought in the twelve. So the Lord can use us together or singly without any danger of envy or rivalry.

-.G. Is that a reflection when Paul says, "Are ye not men?"?

J.T. Yes, it is what marks the world -- partisan associations. So we always want to read Scripture in its context. In that scripture it is what marks men commonly in the world, whereas later on Paul says, "Quit yourselves like men". There it is developed christianity.

E.H. That they might be with Him. That would bring us under His influence?

J.T. That is what is in mind -- companionship with Him. He would take care to influence them as

with Him in this exalted position on the mountain.

A.H.H. So that they all take on His ways. Is that the thought?

J.T. You can see how it would be, how they would observe the Lord. Every moment would bring out some new feature in Him, and He would show Himself. We have in the beginning of Acts how He showed Himself or presented Himself. It would mean that He intended to be known. So that on the mountain He would disclose Himself according to what He intended to produce in them. They would be impressionable and He would appear before them so as to impress them. Hence the importance of being observant when in spiritual surroundings, for He expresses Himself in His people now. A large company or a small company of spiritual persons engaged in this way, the Lord shows Himself to. He has means of expressing Himself to those who are spiritually together.

-.P. These apostles would see what was in the Lord's mind in having them with Him? He called them and they went to Him.

J.T. I think that. How the apostles, particularly James and John when speaking together with one another would say, 'We had a good time today'. The Lord would make a point of showing Himself in some particular way. He wished to convey some particular thought that He intended ultimately to be set out in testimony in them. They would say to each other, 'I never saw the Lord like this before'. This would be needed for them in their service. It was the making time for them.

H.L. Would the power of the call be seen in the united movement to Him?

J.T. Very good. They had Him before them.

-.M. It would suggest that they would be detached in that way from all that was current and recognised?

J.T. Quite so. What was current at the bottom of the mountain did not hold them.

A.L. Is there the thought of gift as associated with Christ as the ascended Man?

J.T. Quite so. According to the Psalm He received gifts in Man. They were in Him first so as to be expressed and then given. The Lord would have them all in Himself. He received gifts in Man for men, so as to distribute them for men, but He would express every gift.

A.H.H. So that He would have us with Him first and then distribute.

J.T. That is right. The first thing is to get to know the Lord. I must get to know the Lord so as to use the gift. It would seem from Ephesians that whilst He appointed the apostles here according to this chapter, yet they were all, as it were, confirmed from heaven by Him as ascended. All power comes down from above but the important thing is the vessel in which the gift is to be. In Ephesians the gifts are in men. That is, the gift is the vessel. Elsewhere the gift is in him. So that the vessel must be brought under the care of Christ. Otherwise there would be great discrepancy between the power of the gift and the vessel and therefore the vessel is not a model.

The idea is that the vessel should be a model.

A.H. Is the Lord stressing that in chapter 9, when the disciples ask why they could not cast him out and He says, "This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting"?

J.T. That is the vessel -- prayer and fasting is what belongs to the vessel. On the mount here the Lord was not ministering, it was a question of personal touch, to see the kind of Man He was. We are linked together and therefore in all our meetings we move together and we are able to maintain practical unity in the Spirit and in the faith, and the saints are kept in unity.

A.G. Is there anything to be learned from the reference about Judas?

J.T. He is never to be allowed to escape. When there is an unruly person the Lord will never let him off. It is remarkable what hints there are as to Judas from the outset.

F.I. It appears here there is preaching with power. Does the power depend to a great extent on being together as a whole? We often do a lot of preaching without success or little result in evidence. Is that because we are not together?

J.T. It may be. Success in preaching depends upon the unity of the local brethren, not only on the preacher but the state of the brethren. Power should be there and if a good condition exists you will have support in preaching, power to heal diseases and to cast out demons. Diseases would be moral conditions amongst the brethren. Only with power can you meet this, not simply in what you say.

Ques. Peter could say, Look on us, in the beginning of Acts. Is that the thought?

J.T. Exactly; not so much the gift -- they were personally united. As contrasted with the Beautiful gate, here was something more beautiful.

A.H.H. Preaching is a question of gift?

J.T. Quite so; of course there is power in preaching but there is the additional power of healing diseases and casting out demons. These conditions might exist in the locality.

A.H. What you are implying is that if we do not get good results, we should all take it to heart.

J.T. Very good. Diseases are common in localities. Diseases would imply that they are catching -- infectious things brethren catch on and suffer from.

Ques. What is the thought in some getting a surname?

J.T. I think it is the mind of the Lord to distinguish

them, because there are distinctions -- so that Peter is always first.

-.G. What is the thought in the sons of thunder?

J.T. It is remarkable that John should be called one. Some take it to be objectionable, but I do not think it would be mentioned in this way if it were.

I think it must be spiritual power. Elihu speaks of the thunder of God's power.

A.H. Do you think John's ministry in Revelation would have a bearing like that?

J.T. It might. Thunder is a very overwhelming thing.

A.H. Might it mean the very definite assertion of the mind of the Lord?

J.T. It might. In Job 37 Elihu says, "my heart trembleth at this also", and he speaks of lightning and "God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend".

So that evidently thunder has a place in testimony.

A.H. Would the word in Joel have any bearing on it? It says, "Jehovah will roar from Zion".

J.T. The Lord comes down in Revelation 10 and roars as a lion roars.

We have had, I think, the general thought in the first scripture. Then the second scripture refers to the return of the servants. It says they are gathered together to Jesus -- a very beautiful touch -- and related to Him all things. They rightly put the doing before the teaching. It says in the Acts that "Jesus began both to do and to teach". Doing would be more general and the teaching would confirm what was done, because if there is no practice, the teaching cannot be effective.

H.L. Would the thought of the word 'apostles' here suggest that they had been qualified?

J.T. This is very clear. They are not called apostles in John at all. Paul says, "Am I not an apostle?" but they are not ministering here. They

are gathered together to Jesus and have the sense of need of coming to Him and telling Him what they are doing. It is a good thing after an address to go to the Lord and tell Him what you have done and said. You will be sure, if you are honest, to say what a poor effort and you would like to do better and He would make you do better next time. That is how progress is made.

Rem. It is a remarkable thing that, although they went out two by two, there is nothing to adjust between them as they come back together to Jesus.

J.T. They were separated in their service but they related all that they had done to the Lord, and they would all be there. He probably would have to correct them and they would all get the gain of it, but here it is to bring out how true they were to their commission.

F.I. Each gets the benefit of the adjustment of each as being together.

J.T. That is it. You can understand He would not send them all out on one day. There is careful deliberation. Mark says He is sitting at the right hand of God. It is a deliberate position. So that these were sent out two by two, but as they come back to Jesus, it would be very interesting to hear them tell what they had done and how they had done it. They would learn from one another for the Lord would not let anything pass.

A.H.H. Would they return in the gain of the companionship of Christ?

J.T. Yes, and then they would have the companionship of one another. That is important also, although we may go out one by one -- but we are told two are better than one.

A.H. Do you think that great importance should be attached to the desert place?

J.T. Quite so. There is nothing of the world there. The service of the Lord precludes all sightseeing

and that sort of thing. It is not a sideline. The work of the Lord is exclusive of all, never a sideline. It is to be carried out by itself. I have to earn my living -- that is another thing.

F.I. It is not to be part levite, part tourist.

J.T. You can see that here. It says they went away into a desert place by ship and many saw them going and recognised them. Part-tourist would almost disguise a levite. If you had tourist clothes on you would be hardly recognised as a minister of Christ.

L.M. Would this show that we are to have sympathy in one another's service?

J.T. I think that. It would be a learning time. There is nothing to divert you at all in the desert. There might be hardship in a desert, but apparently there was not here. It is a resting place. In telling the Lord you would get good, and if anything is not just right I would get the benefit of your adjustment.

L.M. Peter related in Acts 12 how the Lord had been operative and he asked them to relate it to others also. Is there not a necessity for affectionate sympathy among the Lord's servants in view of all that which the Lord is doing?

J.T. In Acts 4 it was more evident. Peter and John return after the sufferings. The early chapters of Acts are like Peter and John chapters but in chapter 4 they come to their own company and relate the things that have happened to them and then there is prayer, and the apostles have increased power after the prayer. The prayer shows how subject they were.

H.L. Is there any particular reason why Mark refers to this after the beheading and burial of John the baptist?

J.T. It suggests suffering. Something very solemn indeed had happened to John the forerunner of Christ. I suppose that would enter into the moment. If anything happens in this way -- anything of a

solemn nature happening to one of the Lord's servants, it should sober us, especially if we may have known him.

-.M. Is this being called apart and resting in view of maintaining the tone in the service?

J.T. I feel it is. We get jaded and fagged spiritually if we do not get some rest. We have to lie fallow in the presence of great things and absorb them. The environment is full of rich thoughts for us to absorb and become more fruitful. The Lord does not say 'go and rest'. He says "come". They would have a very interesting time.

-.R. Is there any link with Matthew 11, "Take my yoke upon you"?

J.T. There is. "Learn from me" -- that is as a Model and He is teaching all that He is Himself: "I am meek and lowly in heart".

W.L. He says, "Give ye them to eat".

J.T. They are scarcely ready for that service.

They should be, but it is very touching that the Lord thinks of us in that way. Perhaps we forget too often and do too much and become stale in our ministry.

Finally the passage in 1 Samuel shows in type how the Lord is over us in the work -- as President, as Samuel is called. It is a unique passage in this sense and the great effectiveness of the service is seen.

How powerful the prophesying was! It was told Saul that David was at Naioth and he sent messengers to take David and they saw the company of the prophets and Samuel as president over them and the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul and they also prophesied, so that the enemy's messengers have been absorbed, themselves taking part in the service -- there is remarkable power under the presidency of Samuel.

A.H. Is this like the power to heal diseases?

J.T. Well, it is. The enemy's messengers are taken on in the service and are actually in it. It is a

great triumph. Jehu said to the messengers of the king of Israel, "Turn thee behind me". The enemy's servants became part of Jehu's cavalcade, God taking over the enemy's workers. It is a great matter because you will bring down the enemy's power in that way.

A.H. This all depends upon the presidency of Christ?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. He intends to be in the way in which He has them on the mountain and then in the desert to rest awhile. This is all unifying. Now they are all working under His control and it is most successful. They want the enemy's messengers absorbed in this system of things and even the enemy himself is overpowered. We are under the influence of Christ.

F.I. I was wondering if we could not apply this to our meetings for prophetic ministry. You would be under the presidency of the Lord and there might be that amongst us which needs adjustment, and this would be overcome by the ministry.

J.T. Yes, take the thought of the first one mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14. If an unbeliever comes in he is convicted and judged and falls down and worships God. He is renouncing the enemy and recognising God amongst His people.

E.H. Things are secured in each of our localities if these things are worked out. We would desire this to be worked out in each locality so that the whole locality is affected.

J.T. So that cases which we have to deal with are not left. Of course there are incurables. We read of Homes for incurables -- very humbling. There is power to heal diseases; why cannot I get it in a spiritual sense?

H.L. Are you suggesting that this kind of presidency would entail the truth of a system that will never come down?

J.T. I think that is it. You can see the most murderous man, after all his servants coming, he comes himself -- not to get under the power of it but to take David, but he comes under the power of it.

This is the system we are brought into.

H.L. We used to be afraid of the word 'system', but we have come into a system; Christ is the Head of the system.

-.P. God has been working that He might undo the works of the devil.

J.T. That is it, so that it is very humbling if we cannot deal with cases.

-.M. Is that why it says in 1 Corinthians 13, "Love never fails", and in chapter 14, "Follow after love, and be emulous ... that ye may prophesy"?

A.H. It is very exercising what you say about incurables.

J.T. Very exercising for those classed as such.

A.H. Would Saul be one of them?

J.T. I think so. It is said of him, Is Saul also amongst the prophets? But it is a derision -- he is the same as ever. He is not in it in a spiritual way.

It is terrible not to be curable. It is because my will is working. Why have the physicians no balm?

It may be in them and it may be in me. In all probability in me.

Ques. The enemy is very persistent -- he sends three times.

J.T. God is more persistent. Christ is in heaven and the Holy Spirit down here -- there is infinite power.

S.K. Does Paul fit in here -- persecuting the assembly and then being overcome by the power of it?

J.T. A very good illustration of what we are saying. Saul was breathing out threatenings and slaughter but the Lord brought him down. He did not destroy him, He cured him.

A.L. Stephen says he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

J.T. There He is ready for service. We have spoken of Him as sitting, which would be more permanency or careful consideration, but when Stephen sees Him He is standing, and at the end of the scripture He is ready to serve. He brings Saul down. Paul says later on to the Lord, 'When Thy martyr Stephen was stoned I was holding the clothes'. He calls Stephen a martyr in speaking to the Lord Jesus -- a very touching matter.

-.C. What are we to learn from the great well?

J.T. I suppose it suggests the Spirit. It is used in this way from the outset. Hagar is the first reference. It was the Spirit of God in freshness. It is mentioned several times -- Hagar, and Isaac himself is seen coming from the well when Rebecca is coming to him and Saul should have been reminded. If he had read the Scriptures he would know. I think it is remarkable about this well. With Hagar it was not that God had not provided for her. She had not seen the well but it was God's provision. Isaac is seen in relation to it later, showing it is the Spirit, so that we as saints in the assembly are supported by this refreshment. Saul is incapable of taking it in.

E.H. There is grace for recovery in the saints, but if a person is not recovered, would you say that God is not granting repentance for some reason?

J.T. It may be. It does not seem that Hagar is ever restored yet God is certainly looking after her and her son and the well is very strikingly connected with faith. Saul is a similar case.

-.G. In connection with sin unto death it is said that request should not be made for that.

J.T. Very good. John saying request is not to be made for him shows the attitude towards such a one, but James says, If any one is sick, let him call the elders of the assembly and they shall pray for him

and the prayer of faith shall heal the sick; and if he have committed sins they shall be forgiven. That is the other side. There is power in the assembly. James gives us the gracious side and the residence of power in the elders.

A. H. Does that show some movement on the part of the one who sins?

J.T. That is it. The thing is how to get right. If he has a disease, how is he to get cured, not that we do not need cures from the divine side, but James says let him send for the elders of the assembly.

A.L. Do you think these two elements are necessary in all our meetings? I thought that David and Samuel would supply power in our companies -- David in the way of the kingdom and Samuel, it says, judged Israel all the days of his life.

J.T. I think David would represent the kingdom of Christ and Samuel would be prophet here. So that Christ is Prophet, Priest and King.

-.G. What is the connection between the sick man asking for the elders of the assembly in his faith and the faith of those who bore the paralytic man to Jesus?

J.T. One is individual but the other is the saints having sympathy to pray for him. We carry to Christ now as praying for persons. Not only that some have sympathy but it is universal.

H.L. Is this typically the Lord's own house?

J.T. Just so. He dwelt in Capernaum so that it represents the house of service.

THE SPIRIT IN RELATION TO OUR RESPONSIBILITY

Genesis 21:14 - 21; Genesis 26:23 - 33; Romans 8:1 - 5

J.T. It is desired to show how the Spirit of God is seen in relation to the responsibility of christians. Hagar is thought to present those who are in responsibility, she is responsible for her son. She failed in her responsibility, as we are told: "She cast the child under one of the shrubs. And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bow shot; for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lifted up her voice, and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is", Genesis 21:15 - 17. She was giving up, casting her son under a shrub to die, that is failing in responsibility. The word is, "Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink", Genesis 21:18, 19.

Then in Genesis 26 Isaac, the type of a believer in the position of testimony, is concerned about wells as it is essential to him in testimony, and we see how, although there was contention for the wells, he found one for which there was no contention. Then he comes to Beer-sheba and his servants came and told him they had found water; "And he called it Shebah therefore the name of the city is Beer-sheba unto this day" (Genesis 26:33), which would mean the place of God's faithfulness.

Then Romans shows how these types point us to the Spirit as the power for the righteous requirements of the law: "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit", Romans 8:4.

Hagar is an outcast, hardly representing a believer in the full position of testimony, but responsible and not cast off by God, but her continuance in salvation would depend on the Spirit, she is to accept responsibility, to take up the lad who is in her charge and hold him in her hand. Her responsibility is there and the well is there to support her; responsibility does not cease with a person under discipline, she is still responsible and she is directed to take up the child and hold him in her hand. God had thoughts about him, great thoughts, and He was ready to aid him, ready to help him and her, but there must be the acceptance of the responsibility.

A.H. What do you take the lad to represent? Is it a question of what is potential?

J.T. Well, just for the moment, whatever one's responsibility is, whatever the obligation resting upon one. Were Hagar to be challenged she would probably say much against Sarah and Abraham, too, but the point was to look after this child, which she was not doing, she cast him under a shrub and left him to die, she was not unfeeling, but still she was wanting in the acceptance of responsibility.

F.I. Does that correspond with the "righteous requirement of the law"? Is that our responsibility being fulfilled in the Spirit?

J.T. Yes, that is what I thought, the righteous requirement, not the letter of the law, but the spirit of it. Christians are exponents of it, that in which Israel failed, they must take up, because they have the power to do so in the Spirit, but this power is only realised as we accept the particular responsibility attaching to us.

E.S.H. "I myself with the mind serve God's law", Romans 7:25. Does that come into taking up your responsibility, whatever that may be?

J.T. Well, that is exactly what governs this passage in Romans, the believer has arrived at that point during exercise and the process of chapter 7; whatever God's law may be bearing upon him, he serves it -- a very great moral triumph.

Ques. Would the woman in 2 Kings 4 be one who was exercised to fulfil her responsibility?

J.T. Yes, she knew where to go, she went to the right man and he told her what to do and she accepted the responsibility, she was not putting it on others. The prophet did not give her anything, the light referred to was in her own soul. The believer must see what the Holy Spirit is, how He may use me, we are to get blessings not a few and the more scope we give the Spirit, the more power there will be.

A.H. So it says, "God opened her eyes ... and she went and filled the flask" (verse 19).

J.T. Yes, and gave the lad drink.

J.T.M. Is that why the thought of God comes in? In taking note of the position, is it to encourage us in taking up responsibility -- "God heard the voice of the lad: ... And God opened her eyes ... . And God was with the lad". Is that all encouragement God would give us to take up responsibility?

J.T. Very, very striking how heaven is brought in, too; she and her son were persecuting Isaac, Ishmael was mocking. It is generally the case when there has been disregard of Christ, not now in heaven, not now personally; we may speak well of Him there, but we may persecute Him in His people, the Spirit of Christ in His people may draw out our despisal and yet it is on account of that Person whom we are despising in that sense that heaven intervenes. Saul of Tarsus was persecuting Christ in His people, "Why persecutest thou me?" (Acts 9:4); it was not Christ

personally in heaven but Christ in His people, and that is what Ishmael was doing and yet his very life and salvation depended upon Isaac typically, for heaven is only active here in the light of Isaac having been born, Christ typically already on the scene and heaven is acting because of that. Both Hagar and Ishmael depended upon Isaac, in that sense our salvation depends upon the Christ that we are persecuting in His people. We may speak well of Christ as in heaven and yet be persecuting Him in His people and refusing to recognise Him in His people.

A.H. God sees to it that our eyes should be opened by the voice from heaven as to what is there.

J.T. That is what happens afterwards, the first thing is to take up the lad. "Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation" (verse 18). God had good things in mind for him and He had heard the voice of the lad, He has His eye on the matter, but it is Hagar's responsibility.

N.K.M. It does not say that He heard the voice of Hagar.

J.T. The lad was the point, I suppose, he was Abraham's son and he would come in for the promise because he was Abraham's son, it is all in connection with Abraham. She was not without concern about the lad, but she left him to die; that is what happens today, do you not think, especially where people are under discipline, they go away and put the blame on others and never take it home to themselves?

N.K.M. Reference has been made to 2 Kings 4; the woman there was very concerned about her two sons, she was accepting responsibility for them, was she not?

J.T. She becomes great, moving in the direction given, she pays her debts and lives on the rest, that is to say, such a one could fulfil every righteous

obligation and the woman of Shunem continues on that, she is a great person and provides for the prophet, she is able to discern that the prophet is an holy man of God; not speaking against the saints, she values them.

Ques. Would the woman of Shunem be one who saw the features of Christ in others but had no features in herself? The servant of the prophet pointed out that she had no son. "And he said, about this season, ... thou shalt embrace a son", 2 Kings 4:16.

J.T. Well, so far she had moved, you may say, in the light of Romans. She views the continuance of the widow, she becomes great spiritually through the selling of oil, that is making room for the Spirit, making use of the Spirit. She certainly has progressed and she makes room for the prophet in her house and regards him as an holy man of God, but as you say, she had no child of her own, not that she asked for one but it would seem as if that would be the normal result -- as if God would grant such a feature.

Ques. Is acceptance of responsibility incumbent on each one in a local company?

J.T. Well, each one certainly has it. Even if one is under discipline he is not relieved of his responsibility, in fact it is accentuated, and if there is that which is the object of his affection and he or she is suffering, well, it is a responsibility. Still the thing is to take on that before God and He will not fail us, even if we are under discipline and rightly under discipline. God will not fail us and it is well that Hagar was in the vicinity of Beer-sheba; it says, "she ... wandered in the wilderness" (verse 14), but still she was in the vicinity of divine faithfulness, that is what Beersheba means, whether she understood it or not, she was in that position. If one is under discipline, he comes under the faithfulness of God, the discipline may be the very expression of God's faithfulness and it will do him good. The point is you are in the

region of it in the wilderness of Beer-sheba, the thing is therefore to accept responsibility, not put it on others.

N.K.M. Is that why Paul refers to the faithfulness of God on two occasions in 1 Corinthians?

J.T. I think so, also in the second. God is faithful at all times, wherever we are, whatever our circumstances, even if we are under discipline, God is God, especially the God of Abraham.

Rem. "If we are unfaithful, he abides faithful", 2 Timothy 2:13.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. What is the connection between the faithfulness of God and the Spirit?

J.T. The Spirit is the means by which God carries it out, the Spirit is down here, actually, of course, God is here by the Spirit. So that I suppose it is the means whereby God carries out His faithfulness. If you are in the wilderness as Hagar was, what is more needed than water? Because the bottle had become spent. Abraham had made some provision but it was soon spent, now the well is provision. I think the thing is for all of us to make room for the Spirit, whatever the circumstances the Spirit is here and will not fail, "The Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered", Romans 8:26. But what is in view in the well is refreshment.

A.H. Do you think that God might open eyes in a meeting like this and now it becomes a question whether I am prepared to go and fill the flask?

J.T. Yes, that is it. Turn to God and get support in your soul; Hagar is mocking or persecuting the people of God, you may be sure where there is anything like that, that the Spirit of God is not operating in me at all, He is grieved.

A.H-s. Do you think the exercises of Romans 7 are alongside the wandering idea, the soul arrives at

the thought that "For to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not", Romans 7:18?

J.T. Yes, the man in Romans 7 is accepting the responsibility, he has arrived at that point definitely. Hagar is not doing that, she has put Ishmael under a shrub, she is not going to die, she thought she could manage by herself.

A.H-s. She did not want to see him die.

J.T. No.

A.H.B. Why does God answer the lad? It does not say in regard of Hagar, God heard her.

J.T. I think it is because he was Abraham's son, the link is with Abraham. The promise made to Abraham stands in that relation, she is in that setting, where the promise attaches.

A.H.B. Did God show her the well to meet the condition she was in?

J.T. Exactly, to meet the condition righteously. God is thinking about the lad, she is going to rob God, she is going to let him die and he was connected with Abraham. No doubt if you were to talk to Hagar she would blame it on to Abraham, she did that before when she fled from Sarah.

A.H.B. She had not come to self-judgment.

J.T. That is the idea. Romans 7 is to teach us how to come to that, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh), dwelleth no good thing" (verse 18). It is a real test -- "in my flesh".

A.H-s. So that God Himself would open her eyes to see the well and all that is available.

J.T. Quite so.

J.T.M. Is there any analogy between this and the woman in John 4, one who had failed in her responsibility?

J.T. Just so, it is the same principle running through this matter of the well, it is a very important line of thought, God's provision for them. Typically

it is the teaching of Acts, the Holy Spirit came down -- this is their provision.

F.I. God came in because of what He had for Himself; Ishmael, being a mocker, comes under discipline, and as the discipline is effective God comes in. We may get out of the way and not come under the discipline of the Lord and not know what is available, and not have sufficient intelligence to know where we stand in relation to the things of the Spirit.

J.T. Just so. We will never come into the gain of the Spirit unless we judge ourselves, so the word is "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit", Romans 8:3, 4. God has dealt with the flesh and it is for us to deal with it, we come into the gain of the Spirit as we do.

F.I. It seems to me to make it simple for us to understand that there is that which is required of us, the fulfilment of these things, and we can only fulfil them as under the hand of the Spirit and that would lead to the spirit of self-judgment in us, so that we may have the Spirit as available to us.

J.T. He can help us much better than the brethren, we may appeal to the brethren to help us, but the Holy Spirit is the real help; only there must be self-judgment, the Spirit is not going to support me in the flesh.

A.H-s. Why does it speak of the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus", Romans 8:2?

J.T. It is transferring us to a new position -- in Christ Jesus, not through Christ Jesus, but in; it is a new position that we are in, it is a principle working in us. Romans speaks of the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus", it is a subtle thought, it is the

Spirit, of course, but working on the principle of law, it must be so -- the Spirit is true to Himself.

A.H.B. Is that what governs us, the principle?

J.T. That is the idea, it sets us free from the law of sin and death, it is the principle working inside of us.

A.H. It seems that where there is a refusal to accept responsibility affections become lacking, she cast him under the bush. Do you think coming into the recognition of the Spirit that affections become produced?

J.T. They would be. Romans 8 is to show the great result of the Spirit; it is very like Beer-sheba because it is the Holy Spirit of promise and I think that is why the idea of a well is so much connected with Beer-sheba. What would man ever be aside from the promise of the Spirit? Beer-sheba is the promise, it is the well of the oath, and so in the case of Isaac we have the thing carried through, he is concerned about the digging, about the wells, his father had them and he would unstop his father's and dig new ones himself, but particularly this one at Beer-sheba; it says, "Isaac's servants came, and told him concerning the well which they had digged, and said unto him, We have found water" (verse 32). An actual thing, not a potential thought, the water itself was there. Hagar is a person under discipline, but still an object of divine faithfulness, and the same provision made for her is made for Isaac; and there is only one provision in that sense and that is the Spirit, everyone has the same provision. Isaac respected the well afterwards, as Rebekah is coming on the scene, he is seen coming from this well in chapter 24. The same power that Hagar could have had Rebekah is to have. It is the only power for the assembly, indeed for the whole universe, it is the power for bringing about conditions answering to the death of Christ.

J.T.M. Does not that make it very solemn that it is said of these wells "for the Philistines had stopped them" (verse 18)? Is that what has happened historically in the church's history?

J.T. Just so. Isaac is Christ typically, not only in heaven, but in the assembly here, Christ in relation to the assembly as seen to be in the testimony, that is Rebekah is seen to be in the position of Sarah's tent; she has left there according to chapter 26. The well that Hagar had to do with is there, it is enough to maintain even Rebekah, it is Christ in the assembly in testimony, it is the same power as there was for Hagar. So every christian has the same power as the whole assembly, the whole universe is dependent upon it. Well, why should I not avail myself of it, how great a thing it is! Hagar was not thinking of a well, she is a person under discipline, with a will acting. God had made promises to Abraham in relation to that boy and this well is at her disposal for him.

Now we come to Isaac. He understands the thought; typically, of course, it is Christ and Christ is operating through the Spirit down here, so as Rebekah comes upon the scene Isaac is seen coming from the well, according to chapter 24. Isaac understands it, the position is very great and every servant of the Lord should understand it, that the Spirit is the alone power for the testimony, and if the Spirit is stopped there is no testimony, and so Isaac is very concerned about these wells, he grows greater and greater through it.

E.S.H. They are digging in chapter 26: 18, that is an advance on Hagar, is it not? "Isaac digged again the wells of water" (verse 18). Then his servants dug a well and water is found.

J.T. Digging refers to self-judgment -- self-judgment is the accompanying element. Romans 7 is that you arrive at this, "That is, in my flesh, dwelleth

no good thing" (verse 18). Making room for the Spirit, that is the idea of the digging, dealing with oneself, the believer is himself the well, according to John 4.

Ques. Is that the way that you arrive at the good of the position that is ever available to you?

J.T. Quite so, the Spirit is the alone power for that; that is what Romans 8 teaches.

A.H-s. Could we count upon an appearing as we move towards the well?

J.T. "And he removed from thence, and digged another well" (verse 22). These others had been contended for but they did not strive for this one, the enemy has come up, we are to persevere in our digging, in our self-judgment. The enemy comes up but it is when we do not judge ourselves that the enemy gets success. He calls the name of the well Rehoboth, which means 'room', plenty of room. He says, "For now the Lord hath made room for us, and we shall be fruitful in the land" (verse 22). It is a great point; Romans 7 shows that I have reached the point of control of my mind, "So then with the mind I myself ..." (verse 25). I do not let my mind control me any more, I am going to control it and that makes room for the Spirit, so in chapter 8 one has plenty of room for the Spirit's activity and that is what Isaac's position now depends upon. Romans 8 makes room for the believer, he can now become out and out a testimony man.

So in verse 23, we come to another movement, he went to Beer-sheba, he is to rest now as having come into the region of divine promise, so that I am fortified now for ever, I can go on in the testimony. Why should any believer be outside of the testimony? God has made provision that I should be in it, not to judge other people but myself.

N.K.M. Is it a great point you have referred to when the enemy comes up and there is room, everything

is attributed to Jehovah: "For now the Lord hath made room for us" (verse 22)?

J.T. Quite so. The next thing at Beer-sheba, is that the enemy would come. On the line of self-judgment Isaac has judged himself, he has plenty of scope spiritually now, the only way the enemy can overcome him now is on the social line so that he should become worldly. The Philistine came with his friend and with his military man, his visit to Abraham was with the military man as much as to impress him with his military power, but this time it is his friend and he will overcome Isaac on the social line, so if Satan ceases to attack us on the line of self-judgment, he will next attack us with wily things, so that we are not to go on with the world or the things in it.

N.K.M. This is a more settled thing, is it not?

J.T. It is, indeed. Some neighbour comes in for a cup of tea and introduces the young people and your young people and so forth, and presently Satan gets influence, that is the section we have read. It says, "Let us make a covenant with thee ..." (verse 28). Then we see, "He made them a feast, and they did eat and drink ... and Isaac sent them away"

(verses 30, 31). That is the finish of that, he is not going to make conditions with them, the point is now God is with me, I have come to Beer-sheba, that is, I am under divine promise, and I am trusting in the faithfulness of God which never fails. "God is faithful"; He is faithful and He never fails, that is the position of this section, God is with you, God is with me. If I am in the company of the Philistine, God will not be with me; better be with God and God with me than with the captain of the army or the king himself, they are not equal to God.

A.H-s. Would what he does at Beer-sheba all make him sensitive on this line: "And called upon the name of the Lord, and pitched his tent there" (verse 25)?

J.T. The position is really very fine, impregnable really, he is under the wing of Jehovah's provision and now he can afford to be gracious to the Philistine. You do not want to make social links, that is the danger.

N.K.M. It says, "he made them a feast" (verse 30).

J.T. He made them a feast and sent them away, he has power.

E.T.E. Does he state the truth of the position in verse 27, they really hated him?

J.T. Just so, they really hated him. If this thing carries on, God says, 'I will not be with you, Isaac'; but he did not, he worships God. Now the well in verse 32 is, in a way, God's answer to all that, he found water, not a potential thing but the thing itself; the Holy Spirit is active -- the water.

A.H. So as we are governed by the Spirit we are not deceived by the world.

J.T. Well, exactly, the Colossian danger was the world.

A.H-s. Would the world come in principally on the line of patronage?

J.T. Well, that is the idea of the three men coming, why did not the king come himself? No, he must make a show, they support this, the world will always do that. If the next-door neighbour comes in to tell you about the car, what they paid for the carpets on the floor and this and that, all to make a show and you begin to say the same thing, well, you are on the same line and God does not like that.

A.H. Do we not have to be careful about that amongst the people of God?

J.T. Yes, comparing ourselves with ourselves, because you may develop a social condition in the meeting.

N.K.M. Overcoming that, it says, "he called it Shebah: therefore the name of the city is Beer sheba unto this day" (verse 33). It is an established position, is it not?

J.T. An established position now; in chapter 21: 33, it was just a place, it is only the place, there is no city, but now we come to the centre and, of course, for a believer that would be the assembly or the spirit of it.

H.A.H. Would these exercises often have to be worked out in a meeting, first the quarrelling spirit to be faced, then opposition until there is room?

J.T. I am sure there is often this sort of thing, the working of the flesh against the Spirit and finally you arrive at plenty of room. Room for the Spirit, that is what is meant and from that point you come up to Beer-sheba, which is a city, that is the assembly becomes a sphere of order and government. Is that what you thought?

H.A.H. Yes, there may be a new meeting and the brethren have to go through these exercises before there is room for the Spirit in freedom.

J.T. Quite so, I suppose they may have to go through it here and one would hope this meeting would help. It is spiritual room we need and Rehoboth is spiritual room -- wide spaces -- plenty of room.

A.H. Do you think the main conflict in this regard is to be in ourselves?

J.T. Yes, exactly, the Philistine element in ourselves contending with the spiritual.

E.S.H. Isaac was not a quarrelsome man, he just went on digging wells. Is that the way in our local meetings if there is the quarrelsome element, those who are on the line of the Spirit would just go on digging?

J.T. That means you go on judging yourself. Some of us were looking at 1 Corinthians and noting the number of times the word 'judgment' occurs in this epistle and so as to bring out that every person in the assembly should be judging, the apostle says, "If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in

the church", 1 Corinthians 6:4. He may not be the least, the brother who is called the least may be more than is apparent, so that we are delivered from the world, from the law courts.

F.I. This last thought in Beer-sheba brings in a collective idea, does it not, the servants dug it and they said, "We have found water" (verse 32)?

J.T. Quite so. I suppose the idea is that Isaac is a man of affairs, he is typically Christ, but I think he is more typically a believer here. He is in the very height of his testimony here, he fails in the next chapter; he is seen here at Beer-sheba, the well of water to support him in the city. We have to face all these elements of chapter 26, the spirit of contention and the secret of success; and in these circumstances go on judging yourself, see to yourself, do not blame anybody but yourself, that is what digging means, making room for the Spirit and it is as sure as possible we shall arrive at plenty of water and the city. The city means we can deal with evil, it is a place of order and light and government.

A.H. It says in verse 18, "Isaac digged again the wells of water", as if he were the only one. If there is one in the locality exercised like this, let him take it on.

J.T. Yes, quite so. I suppose you can see that at Corinth, take a woman like Chloe, she must have been a person who judged herself; the house of Stephanas would be another case, too.

W.H.J.P. There is an association between Isaac and his servants, they say, We have found water.

J.T. Quite so, it would show that he represents the governing principle in this situation, it is Christ, of course, in heaven who governs. There is the element here who governs in your meeting, for instance, the element in persons, that is what Isaac represents, he is dealing with the matter of the Philistines, the servants are digging and they are

successful, so that we arrive at plenty of water and the city; the city means that we can deal with evil; Isaac has already dealt with it, because he sent the Philistines away.

Ques. Would Beer-sheba suggest that you arrive at a position where you have the whole scope of the land before you? It is a southern point.

J.T. That is it, you are under the protection of God's faithfulness, the Spirit is God's faithfulness, the Spirit is the promise.

A.H-s. When it says "the mind of the Spirit" (Romans 8:6), is that still in me?

J.T. "The mind of the Spirit life and peace", that is in you, of course.

N.K.M. What is the significance of the last two verses, coming in after what you have referred to?

J.T. You mean Esau -- "Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite: which were a grief of mind unto Isaac and to Rebekah" (verses 34, 35). That is an element that is apt to spring up in spite of these wonderful conditions under Isaac, he is Isaac's son. A brother in the meeting may spring up like that, that is one of the great troubles that I see among the brethren -- mixed marriages -- and also radios, trade unionism and, of course, general worldly links. These are the main things that we have to contend with. This is an out-and-out bare-faced mixed marriage and in the presence of such a word, too.

N.K.M. Hence the necessity of arriving at the water you have referred to and the city so that conditions may come to light.

J.T. That is the idea, and it is a hard struggle to contend with these evils.

J.T.M. Does the digging dignify us? The princes digged the wells in Numbers.

J.T. Quite so, that would bring in personal dignity among us.

A.H. Would all this lead on to sonship being known as seen in Romans 8?

J.T. That is one of the great features of Romans 8, the Spirit of adoption. You see what wealth there is here in Beer-sheba.

HOW TO DRAW NEAR TO GOD

Hebrews 6:13 - 20; Hebrews 10:14 - 22

J.T. These scriptures teach us how to draw near to God. That is why they have been suggested. Indeed the epistle in a general way has this particularly in mind, for it is addressed to believers who are on comparatively low ground spiritually, and some indeed are in retrogression -- indeed have retrograded, so that the need was stimulation to go forward, not to draw back. So we have stress laid on promises and covenants; unbelievers maybe, believers of small stature, all, of course, need these special features. God is pleased to come down to us and swear to us and promise us -- furnish us with promises and even with the covenants so that we might be assured, and thus go forward.

Another element that is stressed, as most of us know here, is the position of Christ as High Priest above. As is said in chapter 4: 14, "Having therefore a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession. For we have not a high priest not able to sympathise with our infirmities, but tempted in all things in like manner, sin apart. Let us approach therefore with boldness to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and find grace for seasonable help" (verses 14 - 16). It is thought that the two scriptures read will furnish us with a sufficient basis for profitable conversation as to drawing near to God.

F.W. Would you say that the promises and the covenants, and Christ as High Priest, are fundamental as to drawing near to God?

J.T. Well, that is what is apparent. We have Jewish terms here. What has been read deals with fundamentals, as Romans deals with fundamentals,

but in terms proper to gentile believers. This book applies Jewish terms because it is dealing with Jewish believers. We are entitled to use these terms as christians among gentiles, but it is well to be sure in using them that we know what they mean according to the light of Romans.

W.T. Have you in your mind that the promise made to Abraham which has to do with the earthly people, is supported by the oath and by counsel -- counsel especially?

J.T. Well, that is the way Scripture puts these facts. Were Abraham an Ephesian christian, so to speak, as one would hope some of us here are, he would hardly need an oath. That is, if we really know God, we do not need an oath, nor even a covenant, but God took account of Abraham's condition, and confirmed the promise by an oath. So that, as it is said, we might have a strong consolation or encouragement, and He has engaged Himself to certain things, by promise and by oath. It is said that it is impossible for Him to lie in any way, without the promise or the oath, but He condescends to promise things to us and to swear to us that the promise will be fulfilled, so as to assure us, taking account of our feebleness of faith and confidence.

J.M.D. Is it your thought that if we know God in His unchangeableness we will go forward in those thoughts of what is seen inwardly -- the greatness of Christ in glory, and Christ inside the veil?

J.T. Well, that is what is in mind -- the hope enters inside the veil. "Entering into that within the veil", it says, that is the hope itself (chapter 6: 19). We are to enter into it, too, inside the veil, but the hope enters in. That is an additional thing. This is a state of soul. It is what the hope is to you "who have fled for refuge to lay hold on the hope set before us, which we have as anchor of the soul, both secure and firm, and entering into that within the veil, where

Jesus is entered as forerunner for us" (verses 18, 19). That is, we have a footing inside the veil. Our hope enters in there. Jesus is there personally. The hope is not a person. It is furnished there in an objective way, and as laid hold of, it enters in and strengthens us in that way in entering in, but there is a Person there, even Jesus, who has gone in there not only on His own account, but as Forerunner and as Priest of the highest order. So that there is every reason why we should go forward inside the veil.

Rem. He is revealed in Christ first.

J.T. Well, He is, but there are various gradations in that knowledge. If Paul were writing to Peter, he would not bring these things forward, for he and Peter themselves knew how to enter. It is because he is writing to such christians, that is Jewish believers, who were in great danger of going back to Judaism, that he has recourse to these methods, bringing forward Old Testament scriptures to encourage them not to go back, but to go forward.

Ques. Is the service of God in view and all this brought in by the writer to set them free in view of that service, so that it is God they know and serve and praise?

J.T. Well, just so. We are told in chapter 13, that we are to serve. "We have an altar ... therefore let us go forth to him without the camp, bearing his reproach ... . By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise continually to God, that is, the fruit of the lips confessing his name", chapter 13: 10 - 15.

That is the practical injunction to us, to carry on the sacrifice of praise, confessing His name, but these instructions are essential to have so that we are at liberty, our footing is inside. The intervening scriptures, that is chapters 7, 8 and 9 and part of 10, are to establish us on this footing, inside the veil. We have access, boldness of access, to enter the holiest.

That is a plain statement, which is based on the teaching

of these scriptures. The teaching is to be laid hold of in our souls. Facts presented doctrinally are to be laid hold of and when the time for formally entering comes, we are ready for it.

J.H.T. Would the Lord's service, as seen in Luke, help us? In the first chapter, all the people are praying without (verse 10), and then in the last chapter, they are in the temple praising and blessing God (verse 53).

Is the transition seen there in Luke? I wondered if Luke had the moral side in view.

J.T. I am sure that is good. The passage in the first chapter of Luke shows that the service was being carried on according to the priestly order; the priest himself was unbelieving, as you have noticed. I am sure there is much of that occurring today among the people of God. Certain services are proceeding, and even the right order, and hence Gabriel appears on the right of the altar of incense, as much as to say that although the service is going on formally, it is not reaching up to God. It needs divine help. So Gabriel, the angel, has to do with the priest afterwards, and tells him that things that he prayed for are about to happen, and the priest does not believe it. So I suppose the teaching here in our chapters will be what would help us on these lines. The priest we have seen, like Zacharias, or perhaps like some of us at times in our participation nominally in the service of God -- there is often such unbelief in our hearts, but Hebrews shows that the real Priest is above -- the High Priest, even Jesus -- Jesus the tried One. Luke fully sets it out, and consequently the disciples are serving in the temple, praising and blessing God. I am thankful you brought those two scriptures up. As a matter of fact in Luke, even the disciples themselves after all the tuition they had with the Lord and the priestly service on His part, when He came into their midst, after rising from the dead, they were not ready for Him. They were not ready to serve,

but as you say, He had the full thought in mind, and it was reached. He made them ready. He adjusted them according to chapter 24, so that as He comes up He leads them out as far as to Bethany, and then they know what to do. I believe the gospel of Luke helps greatly in the understanding of Hebrews.

Ques. What is the meaning of "drawing near" in Hebrews?

J.T. It is a great general thought taken from the types. In the types in Exodus -- first, Moses drew near; he brought the people out from the camp to meet God; he had gone up the mount himself, and then he brought the people out of the camp to meet with God. Well, that was drawing near. It is really the formula for drawing near to God, because that is the idea, nearness to God. The psalmist says, "a people near unto him". Well, Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, but God is very restrictive and urges Moses to see to it that the people do not get beyond the barriers, so that only Moses could draw near, and yet they themselves were nearer than other people. There were no people on the earth as near to God, though in the very restricted way as they were, but God would accentuate the idea of drawing near by saying to Moses, 'Now you are to go alone'. Even if a beast goes, it must be slain. Then presently God says to Moses, 'well, Aaron can come, too, with you', and then thirdly, after considerable instruction (chapters 20, 21, 22 and 23) we are told that Jehovah says to Moses, "Go up to Jehovah, thou and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel", chapter 24: 1. So that the number drawing near is being extended, and that is the position now. God would extend it to all His people; and they did, but before they actually ascended together Moses took precautions that the people should be committed thoroughly to the commandments of God, for no one should draw near to God in

disobedience. That is a most serious thing to be drawing near professedly, and to be unbelieving, and to be disobedient. Moses with true mediatorial instinct, reads the divine terms in the book to the people, and the people say, "all the words which the Lord hath said will we do". Moses accepts that and builds twelve pillars and an altar, and offers sacrifices and sprinkles the blood. The people, the altar and the book were all sprinkled with blood, which is the point in Hebrews, that there is the full use of the blood in drawing near to God. We can only draw near through the death of Christ. So they went up. That is the principle, that the thought of drawing near is persistent, and is increasingly accentuated. So that instead of Moses alone, we have Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, four, and seventy others, which would be seventy-four, and Joshua besides -- he is to come with Moses. They all went up, and they saw the God of Israel and what was under His feet, and they ate and drank before God. That, I think, is the idea in the types and ought to be very attractive to us, that God has made a way, provided the blood, the blood of Jesus, even sworn to us, covenanted with us, not with us as christians, but with the Hebrew christians. They are viewed in that light, but in principle that is what it is. It is God engaging Himself to us in all these matters, and all to the end that we should be free to draw near to Him, not to remain at a distance, but to draw near to God.

E.M. Is that an individual thought so far as Hebrews is concerned?

J.T. Well, yes, but it is "Let us", you know.

E.M. I wondered if you meant that as a basis of later privilege -- taking up the principle of privilege -- first of all, we must know what it is to draw near consciously as individuals.

J.T. But I would like to hear what you understand -- what you mean -- by privilege.

E.M. Rising as sons before the Father, that is privilege; the consciousness of being in sonship before the Father -- God revealed as Father, and known consciously in our souls, but that, of course, is as we take a collective thought, "many sons". But I thought perhaps this might be taken as an individual exercise in our pathway.

J.T. Well, I think what you say as to that side is right, but as to the uses of the word 'privilege', and the word 'collective', you would include the assembling of ourselves together. In fact, you have not got that until we have all this instruction in drawing near to God. "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together", which they were doing, and many are doing now. You would have in mind when we come together in assembly, that that is privilege. That is glory, too, so that the individual experience must precede that, too. The coming together in assembly to break bread is the beginning of collective privilege. It is progressive from the time we sit down until we leave, or until the Lord leaves, which is a better way to put it. It is progressive, higher and higher yet. That is the principle. So that we go out straight ahead of us. And much intervenes -- the entrance to the gate, for instance, to Ezekiel's temple; the entrance to the gate would be something like seventy-five feet. Well, every movement of that distance would involve spiritual environment, and then inside the inner court, one hundred feet further, and then another entrance to these steps, and then another entrance of seventy-five feet. Well, it is steady progress, lengthy, too, but most happy because it is always spiritual environment. It is wonderful to go through with those extended entrances, and steps, too, seven steps and eight steps. What I understand is, we begin with glory; it is from glory to glory, which is the principle. Even leaving our houses to assemble is glorious. And the anointing

we are all anointed when we are christians, and that anointing is public, for public appearance and dignity, so that even the walk to the meeting-room is glorious. The sitting down is glorious, and all that follows. We come together to do something, and of course, intelligence requires that we should do it, but still it is done in the power of the anointing and the coming in of the Lord gives additional glory, and as we proceed and unfold the riches that we have got in our souls by the power of the Spirit, it is increasing glory. So that we reach the Father. Of course, Hebrews does not lead us as far as that. We do not come to assembling until all this instruction up to the end of the passage we read (chapter 10), but for the other scriptures, what you alluded to as special privilege would be direct worship of God, as such. But what precedes that is most glorious and most blessed -- our relations with Christ, as the assembly, and His relation with us and the interchange and reciprocated feelings -- all that is not only glorious, but most enjoyable.

E.M. You include that in "Let us draw near".

J.T. Well, exactly. The scriptures we have read are intended to prepare us for all that. Why should we remain at a distance from God?

J.H.T. You mean there would be a distinctive glory about Peter and John as they went up to the temple at the hour of prayer, and then in Acts 13, there would be a distinctive glory about those, too, who were ministering to the Lord and fasting in the assembly at Antioch. Is that "from glory to glory"?

J.T. Quite so. The whole of the book of the Acts is upward still. I suppose chapter 20 is the acme of the teaching. Then we get Paul's journey to Jerusalem, but chapter 20, I would say, is the acme of the teaching.

Ques. Do you think our deep need is on the line of consideration? In Hebrews 3 it says, "Wherefore,

holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest" (verse 1), and I wondered if that took in the two sides just suggested.

J.T. Quite so. These scriptures which we have read have to do with the state of our souls. Am I really a believer or am I following what others are doing? That is the point here in chapter 6 -- it says, "We are persuaded better things of you", but they were on very low ground. They might be able to tell us something about the Priest and the Apostle, but where were they in their souls? Think of what is to be believed, and, as coming to the assembly, am I really a believer as to all the wonderful things that enter into it; they are to be in my heart, these things are not in the air in a room, but it is what you bring. They are in our hearts. So that the first thing you have is encouragement. The things that are really presented to us are the truth, so that chapters 3 and 4 stress the idea of faith.

J.H.T. Do we not get an exposure of that with Saul, the king? In 1 Samuel 14, "Let us go down after the Philistines by night ... and let us not leave a man of them". And the people said, "Do whatsoever is good in thy sight", but the priest said, "Let us come near hither to God". Was not Saul exposed as being an unbeliever and the priest rectifying the position?

J.T. Quite so. Saul was really standing in the way of everybody there. I would take advantage of those scriptures to enlarge on the truth. Saul is really the kind of man that is in the way in all these things, he is leading man in the profession, and yet he is standing in everybody's way, and therefore, "let us go down", he says; he is going to get all the credit for the victory; and it was the first altar he built and he calls for the ark and enquires of that, and all that, but there is no change in Saul. He is going to slay Jonathan, he is going to slay the very