Luke 24:27, 44 - 46; 1 Corinthians 14:14 - 20

J.T. I had before me the thought of the intelligence that God intended should mark the assembly as it is constituted here on earth at the present time. The idea of an assembly is that it is composed of intelligent persons.

-.H. We sang in our hymn, 'Give us a child's simplicity' (Hymn 479); does that contradict your thought?

J.T. A little child is one who learns, who is impressionable, and learns. "As newborn babes desire the sincere milk of the word", Peter says; there is no reproach in that, but there is a reproach in the word 'babes' in this epistle, it implies that the saints had not gone on. Luke 24 contemplates the public body; John 20, which is the corresponding passage, contemplates what is within. The disciples were again within, it says, but Luke has in view the public assembly, and hence the place the Scriptures have. We might have read from Ephesians, which also enlarges on the thought of intelligence, but it would carry our subject beyond our time. Ephesians would show the divine thought that those who form the assembly should have the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God, the eyes of our understanding being enlightened, all in view of us being formed for heavenly places.

Ques. How is the intelligence you refer to obtained?

J.T. There are two things in Luke 24 which have a bearing on the house. The first is the exposition the Lord gives of the Scriptures. Then secondly He opened the understanding of the disciples that they might understand the Scriptures, and the way they treat of Himself. In a corresponding passage in

1 Corinthians 2 the apostle says, "even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God", and further, "we have the mind of Christ", 1 Corinthians 2:11, 16. So that we are furnished from God with all that is requisite for spiritual understanding.

Ques. Would the manifestation between the two expositions in Luke 24 have any bearing?

J.T. Yes, a very great bearing. It does not appear that the first exposition the Lord gave altered the course of the two. There are those who enjoy expositions of Scripture and their course is not altered, nor their associations changed, but the manifestation of the Lord in Emmaus in the breaking of bread led to a movement toward the assembly. The Scriptures cannot be understood save by those in the light of the assembly. The manifestation had the effect of their returning to Jerusalem and there they find the eleven and those with them. Then they relate what had taken place, and the Lord comes in and says, "It is I myself", and it is in the light of His appearing that we have the Scriptures divided so that they become intelligible to us: "that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me". The law of Moses represents the authority of God, His rights. One has to begin there, no one can arrive at an understanding of what is becoming in the assembly, save as he sees how the rights of God are fully maintained and expressed in Christ. "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day". So the law of Moses read in the light of Christ risen represents the authority of God in our souls. Then the prophets impress us with the patience of God. One needs to know the patience of God if one is to reach the Psalms, because, if we seek to answer to the rights of God, we soon discover that we have to draw on His patience. One of the most interesting

things found in Scripture is the patience of God. The Psalms themselves testify to this feature, and as I said, if we do not know patience we shall not reach the Psalms. So that is how the Scriptures are to be read if we are to be spiritually intelligent; they are to be read in the light of Christ risen.

R.S.P. You do not get the Psalms in verse 27.

J.T. Well, they are included in "all the scriptures", but their omission is a mark of spiritual exactitude. People who have their backs to Jerusalem have no psalms that God can take account of. They were going through an experience of dejection, and their faces were away from Jerusalem where divine interest was centred.

P.L. So you get in Isaiah 66:13, "ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem"; there is no dejection there.

E.P. Do we make psalms of our own as the result of this intelligence?

J.T. The Psalms are a wonderful storehouse. God greatly honours saints in that He draws from that storehouse to build up the testimony to the greatness of Christ.

-.G. In the "things concerning himself", you apprehend Christ as set forth in Scripture.

J.T. Where can we get an apprehension of Christ risen if we do not understand Scripture? How many things one could refer to in a moment to show how true that is!

A.N. What you have been saying will be seen in the remnant eventually. "They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward", Jeremiah 50:5. They have had proof of the patience of God, and are now moving on to the Psalms, so to speak.

J.T. Yes. Hosea 6:1 contemplates they should return. "Come, and let us return unto the Lord". Then in verse 3, "Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain,

as the latter and former rain unto the earth". That is what comes within the range of one who is truly desirous of knowing. As light comes into the soul, you see what God has effected on the third day; you move on. You are not stationary, you follow on to know, and that brings out the movements of Christ. How many apprehend them? "His going forth", Hosea says. He is moving in relation to all the thoughts of God; every thought of God is to be fully expressed in the day, so His going forth is as the morning dawn. Spiritually you see every divine thought becoming verified in Christ, and the heart is full of hope as the fulfilment of all these thoughts is the end to which we are going. Colossians and Ephesians take account of Christ in that way in relation to the thoughts of God, to the mystery. This principle of following on to know is important. As knowing and made to live before the face of God there is power for movement, and you come to see that His going forth is as the morning dawn. Wonderful things come into view, filling your heart with hope. "He shall come unto us as the rain": His coming unto us shows what an interest He has in us.

Ques. Are these movements assembly-wise?

J.T. Yes. You begin to see them as you follow on. The present dispensation is a dispensation of movement on His part, as well as on ours. The Lord's appearings after He rose suggest a dispensation of movement. Freshness in the assembly is in mind. He comes to us as the latter rain, shedding refreshment on us, but that is dependent on following on to know.

Rem. In the end of John's gospel you have, "follow thou me", John 21:22. Does the thought of following run through the dispensation?

J.T. John gives three manifestations; Paul gives six appearings, and Matthew, Mark, and Luke give a variety of additional appearings. John in the first

two manifestations in chapter 20 has in view a weekly experience, they were on the first and the eighth day; the third manifestation is in chapter 21; we do not know on what day it occurred as it is not a question of a spiritual or assembly experience as the two others were. It has reference to recovery, not of the whole body, but of leading brothers who went astray. Luke has in view the recovery of the most insignificant persons who, we might consider, are of no note. But the public assembly requires every believer, the least as well as the greatest, so they have to be brought back. One, it says, "named Cleopas"; he was not like Peter, for instance, well known to every one, but the Lord thought it worth while to travel sixty furlongs to bring him back.

Ques. What is the force of the second manifestation in John 20?

J.T. The disciples are again within. The exact day is given to show that the Lord is thinking of the experience of the assembly. None of the other gospel writers gives exact dates. It shows too the Lord would take account of any absentees from the first manifestation.

P.S.P. Is this chapter in Luke an illustration of how He deals with us individually to set us in assembly conditions?

J.T. Yes.

A.N. The two set out themselves for Jerusalem, though they had said it was too late for the Lord.

J.T. Yes, they set out the same hour. It is well worthy of note. The Lord in His work of recovery would not overlook the humblest of the people of God when the public body is in view.

P.L. So "I have much people in this city".

J.T. Yes, all are to be sought out, and if they come back they are to be intelligent.

E.P. It says "that same day" (verse 13). Is there anything in the fact that all takes place then?

J.T. It shows the wonderful activity of grace. Things are all done at once; God does not put off. The seraphim flew in Isaiah 6. Thomas was absent from the first meeting in John 20 and he had to learn during the week what he had missed.

-- M. As we take account of the Lord's movements we shall be exercised to get something fresh every time we come together.

J.T. Yes. He comes to us as rain.

Rem. We see Him going forth as the morning.

J.T. Yes. First in relation to the thoughts of God, then in relation to the saints.

J.C.M.W. Would the first be in connection with the exposition of Scripture?

J.T. It would be more than that, though it includes it. The morning dawn would include the effectuation of all the divine thoughts in Christ.

F.W. Spiritual intelligence largely depends on the apprehension of resurrection as in Hosea.

J.T. Yes, we are made to live before God in the resurrection of Christ on the third day. He is risen and would set the disciples in movement in regard to spiritual intelligence as there is much more beyond. You observe He is never seen sitting in these appearings, as the end is not reached.

Ques. Are all His activities in view of the assembly getting the gain?

J.T. Yes; the disciples come in, in the light of Christ risen. "It is I myself". He is now apprehended as risen, and they are to be set in movement here in the intelligence which should mark those who form the assembly publicly. The Scriptures provide a basis for what is authoritative; the study of Scripture is in the light of Christ risen, and the understanding He gives has in view the setting up of a public body here representative of God. They know what to do, they know the position as it is. Wonderful that the Jewish remnant should have part in this;

the Scriptures are instrumental in severing them from the accredited religion of the world. Those led into the light would use the Scriptures with powerful effect in delivering the Jews from their present position. How effectively would a scribe instructed unto the kingdom of heaven use Genesis, which abounds with types of the assembly, for the deliverance of the Jews from Judaism. The gentile, too, would be reached. We are told that Jacob fled into Syria, and Israel served for a wife and for a wife he kept sheep. That would be understood, showing the Jews the divine thought extending beyond themselves, and showing the gentiles that they were in the mind of God even in Genesis. They were to form part of the assembly.

P.L. The Syrophenician woman would come in in that way.

J.T. Quite so. Here in this chapter we want to see the place the Scriptures have in the constitution of the assembly. You know where you are. You have in the right understanding of the Scriptures, an authoritative groundwork for all you do. This chapter shows how the assembly as a public body is to be instructed by the Lord directly. The assembly is God's and He has a right to speak there.

-.M. In the recovery of the truth there is the place Scripture has and the place the Lord has, to be taken account of.

J.T. In 1 Corinthians the truth of the Supper is introduced, and then the body, then love, and the exercise of gift. In ministry you have God speaking, particularly in prophetic ministry.

W.S.S. Peter speaks of the writings of Paul in 2 Peter 3:15.

J.T. He recognises that Paul's letters were Scripture. Peter tends to unify the work of God by writing to the Jews of the dispersion, who had been scattered, and he reminds them that Paul's letters

were Scripture. But what I was thinking of was the assembly convened, which the first letter to the Corinthians contemplates, and how room is made for divine communications. My impression is that the tendency in assembly occasions is to overlook the divine right to speak. I believe the tendency is growing among saints, unconsciously perhaps, to view such meetings as the place where saints speak to God. Now, it is intended that saints should speak to God, but it is never intended that our speaking to God should shut out His speaking to us. If God comes in, and He will come in, there will be something that will greatly enhance what I may have to say to Him. Rain coming into my soul (referring to our scripture in Hosea) greatly invigorates me and accentuates what I have got. I fear the tendency is to make no provision for God speaking; people come without their Bibles, and do so deliberately. They say it is not a time for the Bible, only for the hymn book.

Ques. Do you refer to the morning meeting?

J.T. It is not so called. The 'assembly' is the word used. In the early days they met in the evening apparently. The word is "in assembly". The breaking of bread is spoken of in Acts 20. It is God's assembly and there should be the full recognition of the rights of God; it is where He can speak. It is a denial of the rights of God in the assembly, if we say we should not have a word on that occasion.

P.L. "He shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth", Hosea 6:3.

J.T. The rain comes into the soul and it enhances what may be there, and freshens and enlarges it; a word from God instructs you.

A.N. We may have a tendency to go from one extreme to another. There was a time when a word given in the assembly was corrective in character and

had relation to the wilderness; now, it may be, no room is given for a word at all.

J.T. Of course there is to be no licence for the activity of our wills. We simply want to get the right principle that governs the assembly. The assembly is God's and He speaks, and we should expect it and make room for it. In the end of each gospel, what is emphasised is what the Lord says. The Lord is not here corporeally now; He comes in in a spiritual way, and if He speaks He speaks through selected vessels. The assembly is furnished with these, and gift will be there, if desired, particularly prophecy.

E.L.M. How would you distinguish between what is prophetic and what is expository?

J.T. A prophetic word would bring God into the consciences of saints, and He is identified with His word as in Hebrews 4. This does not at all interfere with the outflow of worship; it rather enhances it, if there is a worshipful condition.

F.G.W. Would the Psalms help us in regard to the assembly on the line of intelligence?

J.T. Oh yes. Take Psalm 45, "I speak of the things which I have made touching the king". Someone has made something; he has got it fresh; what an asset that is!

P.L. The queen would profit by all she heard about the king.

J.T. Yes.

M.O. Would a prophetic word connect you with Christ?

J.T. Yes, quite so.

P.L. The heading of Psalm 45 is "An instruction -- a song of the Beloved".

J.T. That is very good.

W.W. "Where there is no vision, the people perish", Proverbs 29:18.

J.T. Yes, that is very good.

P.S.P. A word spoken would not be of an individual character, but one expressive of the mind of God at the moment.

J.T. Yes, a word spoken in the grace of the Head. If we see it is God's assembly, we shall recognise that He will speak according to what is needed. It is a question of what may exist and He knows. Here He had to allay their fears. We may give out beautiful hymns and say nice things, but the Lord is concerned as to what lies behind. There might be a very low state, a very worldly state, and yet saints can give out hymns in a formal way. Generally speaking, if a word is given, one would look for something in the grace of the Head in the way of refreshment.

-.M. Something that would give the Lord His true place in our hearts. J.N.D. used to say he knew the state of the meeting by what the Lord gave him.

Ques. Would you say there was something wrong if a company had not had a word for a year?

J.T. I should certainly think so.

-.G. You spoke of God speaking through selected vessels.

J.T. Yes. He does select His vessels. It says in referring to the gifts, that He set certain in the assembly, the ones fitted to speak, no doubt.

Rem. If one had no gift, would he be precluded from giving a word on that account?

J.T. Oh no, not at all. But if you give the Lord His place, gifts are provided; that is part of the furnishing. If you leave it with God He will select His vessels. He had to take up a woman in John's day; not that that would be suitable now.

A.N. We have thought of ministry Godward in relation to the assembly; what you are now speaking of is ministry manward. Is there the ascending and descending, as when the thought of the house was first introduced (Genesis 28:12)?

J.T. That is good, that was the first thing in connection with the house.

P.L. In John 20 you have, "I ascend", and later, "I also send". Might not a word given in the grace of the Head provide the furnishing in regard to sending? Solomon rose up from before the altar, and stood and blessed the whole congregation (1 Kings 8:54, 55).

J.T. Yes, and David dealt to every one of Israel "a loaf of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine", 1 Chronicles 16:3. There is the thought of God's bounty; you go out richer than when you came in.

F.W. Is gift open to desire?

J.T. Yes, it is there to be had. The Lord has plenty to give, if we make room for it. "Desire earnestly the greater gifts", the apostle says, and he adds, "but rather that ye may prophesy", 1 Corinthians 12:31; 1 Corinthians 14:1.

HOW SPIRITUAL LIFE IS DEVELOPED

John 1:4; John 12:23, 24; Judges 14:5 - 9; Judges 15:15 - 20; Judges 16:1 - 3, 22

I wanted to bring out from these scriptures something as to life, according to the manner in which it is developed in our dispensation. Life necessarily enters into all dispensations. When the Lord said, "I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly" (John 10:10). He had reference to ourselves; we have everything in abundance and especially life. John, having this great subject in view in his gospel, introduces the subject of life immediately, and he does so, not in a theoretical way, but in a concrete way; that is, as it had taken form in a Man -- in One, indeed, of whom he had already said that He was in the beginning with God and that He was God, and that without Him not one thing received being which had received being. So that His Person is carefully guarded and asserted, before John introduces this great subject as having its beginning in Christ: "In him was life, and the life was the light of men".

It is well, dear brethren, to be reminded in approaching such a great subject, which has its beginning in Christ, that we should be on our guard in regard of the Person of our Lord Jesus Christ, for on every hand He is attacked. Even those who profess to love Him and regard Him in esteem, are letting down the bars and admitting the agents of the enemy, of whom the apostle says, "his ministers ... transform themselves as ministers of righteousness", 2 Corinthians 11:15. One is reminded of Joab, David's captain, a sagacious man, one who would stand up for, as we say, the fundamentals, but who, being selfish, and ambitious, and perceiving that David's heart longed for Absalom,

devised a way whereby the king would be induced to recall the banished murderer. The scheme, indeed, was the gospel; the gospel was to be employed to bring about the recall of the murderer, but as is usual where the eye is not single, where Christ and His glory are not alone before the soul, we have the assertion of the natural mind of the ambitious man, the ambitions of the flesh. Joab employed the wise woman of Tekoah to approach the king. She began by telling the king that her two sons strove in the field and there was none to separate them. She intended to convey to the king that Absalom was one of those, but it was a lie. It was no question of two sons striving together; Absalom's act was one of murder, not a protective measure, not in any sense an act of self-defence, and although she proceeds to outline what corresponds with the gospel in a most striking manner, there was, underneath, this serious and fundamental defect, that the young man was veiled in the tale of a man striving with his brother in the field. How the enemy would thus misrepresent the position with regard to our Lord Jesus Christ, as if He were put to death by strife! His death was a murder, and His murderer is the man after the flesh whom Joab would have recalled, and whom the leaders of christendom today have recalled. They have contrived to open the door so that these opposers, these murderers, these enemies of Christ, should be brought in and have a place. And what is the result? Absalom, as will be remembered, having been recalled, burnt the field of barley (2 Samuel 14:28 - 32). Barley is universally a type of the Lord Jesus Christ as the first-fruits to God, and the admission of these enemies of Christ involves that the truth of the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ is being attacked, set aside, and undermined; the barley-field, as it were, has been set on fire, and who can quench it? Joab had no power to quench it, nor have those who are

responsible, and although they may have respect for Christ, yet they have given the enemies a place, with the result that the Person of Christ is attacked on every hand. The condition of christendom is hopeless. Absalom has been recalled, so to speak, and as recalled he was not inactive; he set fire to the barley-field, and then he undertook to displace the king. And he did displace the king; so that, dear brethren, it is well to be reminded that we should be on our guard lest the barley-field be destroyed. The barley-field refers to the place of the testimony. We have to be on our guard in regard of the Person of our Lord Jesus Christ, lest the truth of it should be set on fire, as it were, and be destroyed. The foundation of God stands; that cannot be destroyed, but the barley-field refers to the sphere in which the testimony of the Person of Christ has been presented; and that has been corrupted, so that there is no protection in it at the present time for the Person of Christ.

John, having all this in view, introduces the truth of the Lord's Person. He has in view to develop the great subject of life, but in order that the foundation should be right in our souls he introduces Him as in the beginning with God, as with God, that He was God, and that not one thing was made without Him. And yet it says, "In him was life, and the life was the light of men".

I want to enquire as to how far we have apprehended the life of Christ in this way. John goes on to say, "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us"; he does not say, 'The Word became man', although that is true, but "became flesh"; that is the Word came in as a babe, and the life developed in Him according to its own nature. Genesis 1 insists that everything developed according to its kind, and so the life of Jesus developed in every respect according to itself. He brought it into this world; it was in Him. We see a remarkable picture of it in the dream of Pharaoh's

butler in the prison in Egypt. He sees three branches of a vine, and they budded, and blossomed, and bore fruit. There was the bud; there was the blossom, and the ripened fruit, and then the grapes are pressed into the cup of Pharaoh. What was for God, dear brethren, in that life! It was perfect, for the Word became flesh, and the life developed in perfection according to itself in every stage. It drew nothing from its environment; it had all its substance in itself. Thus the life of Jesus here under the eye of God, from the very outset was for His pleasure. The grapes pressed refers to the death of Christ in which that life that belonged to God was given up. Life belongs to God, and in no one was that more perfectly presented than in Jesus -- His life was for God. The scene of death was lighted up by that life. "God ... commanded the light to shine out of darkness", and so it did in the life of Jesus. In that life the light shone in the scene of death; and it was for men. "The Word", it says, "became flesh, and dwelt among us". He dwelt among us. As He moved in and out amongst men in the most ordinary circumstances, the light shone in every word, in every look, in every service of Christ; in every step He trod the light radiated. But, "the darkness apprehended it not". Terrible fact! Men in the flesh, however cultured, however religious, are incapable of discerning such light! Hence the necessity for the work of God.

Even men who believed on Him because of the signs were of no moral value in His eyes. He did not commit Himself to them because He knew what was in man; He knew all men. Let no one beguile himself, the Lord knows perfectly what is in you; and unless you are born again He has no confidence in you or in me.

Therefore the work of God ran on collaterally with the light. As the light shone, God wrought, and such as Nicodemus, the woman of Samaria, the nobleman

of Capernaum and the blind man, came into that light, and coming into that light, they came into the life, for the term is reciprocal. The life is the light, and the light is the life. The life of Christ is the light, and the light is the life, and hence as God wrought, the light that shone in the souls of men and women meant life to them. The question was asked in Ezekiel, "Shall these bones live?" Ezekiel 37:3. Yes, they can live, but how? By the work of God.

Well now, that precious life, filling with delight the heart of God as it did, and illuminating men, shedding its light on every man, must remain alone unless He, in whom it was, died. He had been the light of men when Philip and Andrew came and told Him that the Greeks were desiring to see Him. Mark you! they said, "We would see Jesus"; it was the Man they wanted to see; the Man was in perfect keeping with the light presented. The magi in an earlier day did not ask to see the Man; they asked to see the King: "Where is he that is born King of the Jews?" That meant that the light that had come to them from heaven, through His star, had delivered them from national feeling. Their words indicated there was no national feeling in their minds. They wanted to see Him who was the King of the Jews, not 'our king'. Such is the power of the light as it comes into the soul. It is true to itself, and as Matthew presents the King, they sought the King. But John presents the Man. You say, 'I thought Luke presents the Man'. So he does, but John presents the Son of God as a Man, and emphasises that He is the Son of man. And so the Greeks come up and want to see the Man: "We would see Jesus". They understood very little what their enquiry involved. Those who through Paul were led to believe on Jesus later understood how much lay behind the enquiry. Paul testified through the Greek world announcing that Jesus was the Son of God. He spoke of Him as the

Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, a testimony to be rendered in its own time; and so assemblies were formed and they came to apprehend, as we see in the second letter to the Corinthians, the life of Jesus. How much do we understand of the life of Jesus? Paul's great desire as to his body was that it should express "the life of Jesus".

As the Greeks came up they said, "Sir, we desire to see Jesus" (John 12:21), and Philip and Andrew came to Jesus and told Him. Then He says, "The hour is come that the Son of man should be glorified ... . Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, it abides alone; but if it die it bears much fruit", John 12:23, 24. What a humanity we shall see presently, not only in kind and quality, but in quantity, as the fruit of the death of Jesus! Let us not in any way be discouraged in regard of numbers. He says, "If it die it bears much fruit".

Now I want to show you from the book of Judges how the "much fruit" corresponds with the original stem. Samson returns and he finds in the carcase of the lion a swarm of bees. A swarm of bees, and they are living. I hardly know anything in the realm of creation that suggests energy of life more than a swarm of bees. It is industrious life; it is life in mutuality with results. He finds a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase. You say, not a desirable place. We have to understand how to live in death and how death becomes the energy of life. As Paul says, "Death works in us, but life in you", 2 Corinthians 4:12. We have to understand that; it is mutuality in the carcase. Abraham used the expression, "that I may bury my dead from before me", Genesis 23:4. The natural eye does not like death. All sorts of devices have been employed to minimise the awfulness, the hideousness and offensiveness of death, but these are of no avail. The christian does not wish that; he accepts it as it is, and as it is rightly apprehended,

it is the very energy and stimulation of life, for our life is a life out of death. We are all in the same position, because we are all in the carcase. The swarm was in the carcase. There is nothing for the flesh in that. But the bees were acting industriously, there was mutuality and so the Spirit of God says, "and honey". There was a product, and Samson takes of that and eats, and gives of it to his father and mother and they ate also; but he kept the secret. One of the most important things in christianity is secrecy. Rightly understood there is no secret society like that of christians. We have to learn how to keep the secrets of God. The epistle to the Romans tells us God kept a secret throughout the ages; He never divulged it. So the secret of life is known alone to christians. No one understands life except he who has the Spirit of God. The Philistines could never have answered the riddle had Samson's wife not disclosed it. "If ye had not ploughed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle". The church has proved a failure; it has disclosed the secret and hence is responsible for the undoing of Samson.

Having said so much, which I hope will be simple to us all as to the thought of life, I wish to add a further word as to mutual relations. The thought of working together mutually with a definite end is the first feature of collective life, and we find it here in this type. Now how is this to be preserved? We may begin in mutual relations, but how is mutuality to be preserved in freshness? I apprehend that the Lord's supper is that which is designed to maintain it in freshness. As a young christian takes his place amongst the people of God, he feels himself one of them; he looks at them all in the light of the death of Christ; he is glad to recognise the poorest of them and the richest of them, as all meeting together happily and mutually, enjoying the things of the Spirit. But presently if the world gets in a little and has place

with him, he begins to feel he has something to distinguish him from the rank and file, and he loses his freshness and his power, and becomes occupied with theories and doctrines; he loses the fresh spring in his soul and there is no honey. The Lord says, "I am come into my garden ... I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey", Song of Songs 5:1. As coming into His garden, He looks for the product of mutual life.

If you look at chapter 15, you will see it refers to the wheat harvest. I have no doubt the allusion is to the saints as the fruit of the death of Christ, and so if they are to be preserved in mutual relations they have to be kept fresh in the thought of the death of Christ; there is to be something to bring to their attention and to keep before them the constant efficacy of the death of Christ. Hence Samson finds, it says, a fresh or a new jawbone. We have got to understand that. It is a fresh one, not one dried up by the sun; death had just occurred, and he slays a thousand men with that. I have no doubt, dear brethren, that it refers to the Lord's supper as bringing before us week by week the love of Christ in freshness. There is no growing old in that. I often think of the freshness of divine love as illustrated in the emerald rainbow around the throne in Revelation 4. There was a "rainbow round the throne like in appearance to an emerald". What did that rainbow represent? The covenant of God made thousands of years before. It had been seen in the clouds for thousands of years by men in every nation. One has seen a perfect rainbow from horizon to horizon, but who understood it? And now, as the throne is set up in heaven, and God is about to resume His relations with men on earth, there it is! He says, I have not forgotten my covenant. I remember my covenant; you forget it; I have not forgotten, for my love was in it. The kindness and love of God to men was in that bow,

and that kindness and love are as fresh in the heart of God now as they were then. And the rainbow is the colour of an emerald. Green is a symbol of freshness, so that the love of God is as fresh and as true as He resumed His direct relations with the creation, as it was when He made the covenant. There is no change. Nor is there any change in the love of Christ; it remains as fresh as it was when He laid down His life, when He had each of us in His mind individually and when He had us collectively in His heart as the assembly. His love is as fresh today as it was then. It is the love of Christ brought weekly, if not constantly, to our attention, that preserves us in these mutual relations, and in the freshness and vigour of them. So there is always a supply of honey. He comes and looks for it. "I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey".

The Lord's supper is, so to say, objective, and we need more than that, and hence we have what is subjective suggested in the well. Samson thirsted. He had slain a thousand men, but he says, "Now shall I die for thirst", and God clave the hollow rock which was in Lehi, and water came out of it. The well was therefore called En-hakkore, which means 'the caller's spring'. God answers the cry in the Spirit. You have the principle of calling or praying, and I would suggest for the young that perhaps one great cause of weakness, and unhappiness, and depression, is the want of constant prayer. We are enjoined to pray without ceasing. Think of an expression like that! Make everything a matter of prayer. If you do, the depression will disappear, and you will find that the Lord will come in for you; every detail of the path is known to Him. If He has numbered your hairs, has He not numbered your sorrows? He has, beloved brethren. He knows them. "The heart knoweth its own bitterness" (Proverbs 14:10), but He knows it better than the heart, and He knows how to

relieve us. Samson has the spring and is invigorated. Put 'the caller's spring' to the test; you will never find it to fail you. And so Solomon, in that remarkable prayer of his in which he mentions heaven and the house of God so often, says, "What prayer, what supplication soever be made by any man ... when they shall know every man his own plague, and his own grief ... then hear thou from the heavens, the settled place of thy dwelling", 2 Chronicles 6:29, 30. God would answer, from His dwelling place, such a one who turned to him, and He does so now. I would especially urge upon young people to put what I am saying to the test. "For every one whosoever, who shall call on the name of the Lord, shall be saved", Romans 10:13. You will never find Him fail you. He answers by the Spirit, because it is the subjective side. Prayer and the Spirit go together. So Samson has the spring and he is invigorated.

After the Spirit is understood and prayer is understood as distinctive elements for maintaining the freshness of life in our souls, then we see how the purpose of God comes into view. Samson carried the doors of the gate of the city and the two posts with the bar to the top of a hill before Hebron. It is the power of Christ risen. We come into the light of the resurrection of Christ, the light of another world, for Hebron was built before the world, before Zoan in Egypt (see Numbers 13:22). It represents what was before the world, and the doors, bars, and gates of this world (the power of Satan really) are all carried up there. There is no power left against us now; Christ has led captivity captive; He has gone up into heaven and has opened up a new world to us, and Hebron stands for that. We are in the light of another world in the resurrection of Christ.

If there is defection, which there is, alas! there is one other word: "The hair of his head began to grow". As soon as you begin to discover the hair

growing you may be sure that restoration has set in. It is not now a question of conforming to the requirements of the brethren in terms. We do not need to press for right terms and doctrine; what we should be looking for is the growth of the hair. If your hair begins to grow, it cannot be contested; it marks the energy of life coming into view. How can hair grow without the energy of life? So it says Samson's hair began to grow. Dispensationally the hair of the church, so to speak, has begun to grow; life is being developed. And hence the end is near, for in that power all the world is coming down presently, even as in figure in Samson, when he bowed himself the house fell on all the people that were therein.

THE SERVICE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TO THE ASSEMBLY

Mark 14:26; Mark 13:3, 4; John 7:53; John 8:1, 2

These scriptures, as you observe, speak of the mount of Olives, and I use them in this connection, wishing to show how the present privileges and intelligence and service of the people of God are dependent upon the Spirit as come down from heaven. The Holy Spirit is here as from heaven; He has come down from heaven, Christ being there as Man, and is here as a divine Person Himself, with the holy affections and feelings and sympathies that are proper to divine Persons. He is here thus, as the Lord says, as "another Comforter". He takes the place of Christ as amongst His people on earth, and, as sent down from the Father in answer to the mediatorial prayer of the Son. He is here to supply all that the assembly needs and to be her Guide and Companion to lead her to Christ now.

We are not translated by the Spirit. The Lord reserved that, as according to divine ways, for Himself. The Spirit's perfect service and mission are seen perhaps fully at the end of Scripture where we read "the Spirit and the bride say. Come", Revelation 22:17.

The Spirit has His own interest in the coming glory of Christ being placed in this world according to divine purpose and right, and so He says "Come!" to Jesus, and in unison with Him the bride says "Come!" It is the united expression of desire.

I want to show from these scriptures how we are brought into the present gain of the Spirit -- not exactly in the light I have spoken of, though intimately connected with it -- but as a direct link with heaven. In this gospel and in Matthew, after the

Lord introduced His supper to His disciples, it is said, "when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives". I apprehend as coming into the assembly, and as having part in that holy institution called the Lord's supper, we are in a position to enter on this living link with Him.

Matthew and Mark pre-eminently treat of what is dispensational. The church has her part in that, for it is said that on her has come the ends of the dispensations, that is, the ages: they all converge on the assembly. Every testimony of God from the outset was deposited in the assembly. I use the word 'deposited' as a scriptural word for we are enjoined to "keep ... the good deposit entrusted", 2 Timothy 1:14. We are enjoined to hold in affection every divine thought, not to allow any to lapse; all are to be preserved by the saints, but this can only be by the Spirit, and by the Spirit as a link with heaven, for by virtue of this living permanent link with heaven the assembly is kept alive, vigorous, and fresh, a becoming vessel for the maintenance and expression of these wonderful thoughts. This expression is indicated in the candlestick which suggests the way in which she is to shine during the dark night of this world.

So there is this outlet for us in Matthew and Mark into that which is our own sphere. The assembly is left down here to have access into these things, and there is ability in her by the Spirit to enter heavenly regions.

What I am saying is, I hope, not theoretical in our minds, for it is practical, and a truth which if not rightly understood will leave us little better than Judaism, whereas we should be marked by what is heavenly. "Such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones", 1 Corinthians 15:48. It is to be noted that this does not refer to what we shall be, but what we are.

The Lord maintained that heavenly side, saying, "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man" (John 3:13) and also "We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen", John 3:11. The divine thought is correspondence with that, and that is possible by the Spirit as the living link with heaven. It says they sang an hymn; it does not say He sang it, but they. We never find the Lord praying with the disciples; He prayed in their hearing and sight, but always He is seen alone, whereas in this particular case He sings with them, and they go with Him to the mount of Olives.

Now in later days they would revert to this extraordinary experience. Need I suggest that they would think of the manner of His singing. Can anything be more interesting than enquiry as to His singing with them? And then came the movement outwards and upwards. This experience can be sustained only by the Spirit. It involves a link with heaven, and this can only be by the Spirit.

Many will know that this incident is only recorded in Matthew and Mark, and this is because in these two evangelists the previous dispensations are prominent and the assembly is linked up with them, but she has an outlet to her own domain by the Spirit, and in virtue of this outlet and her appropriation of it she takes on this character in the maintenance of it.

In chapter 13 we have another feature. The temple, the representative building of the accredited religion of the day stood out prominently as viewed from the mount of Olives, so that his disciples say, "See what stones and what buildings!" How many people of God today are held by imposing buildings, ceremonies, and titles held by those who serve there, and by the antiquity of it all. The Lord would show that what Olivet represents is the secret of deliverance. Even His disciples were awed by the grandeur

of the system, but it was nothing to trust in now; the Lord had said "Your house is left unto you desolate" (Luke 13:35) and here "not a stone shall be left upon a stone". This is a solemn word for every religionist today who relies on structures and system. "Not a stone shall be left" and this is said of that which God had owned. There is no idea in the New Testament of the sanctification of a material building; God is not in it, and deliverance for us lies in the recognition of what mount Olivet represents, the Spirit. The Holy Spirit says through Stephen as the system is about to be given up, "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool", Acts 7:49. Think of the presumption of men who would build a house for God today. Does not God resent this? He does, and the systems are coming in for judgment.

The disciples ask Him privately; so we can see that we can obtain private information. News has become an article of commerce, but here is information beyond the range of man: it is not intended for the journalism of this world but for those who understand secrets.

Samson began with a riddle but disclosed it, and this led to his ruin. We understand secrets -- the ultimate destination of this world. How many have asked for private information? It is possible to obtain it for "the secret of the Lord is with them that fear him", Psalm 25:14. Think of Daniel who prayed towards Jerusalem; he had secret information. He was not merely curious, he loved his people and enquired of heaven, and heaven instructs him; he gets days and dates. Here was a man "greatly beloved", and how precious it is to turn to God as having this sense and as doing so in relation to His interest. The assembly is in the midst of the course of God's governmental dealings with this world, but we can know what is going to happen. Daniel, "greatly beloved", is instructed by the angel as to

the future of his people and then he is "to stand is his lot". It is most important that we ask for private information. They "asked him privately", and the Lord immediately answered.

We are in a most deceptive age; darkness is everywhere and hence it is most important to seek private access to the Lord and get information. It is not that everything has not been told, for the Revelation is an unveiling. In Luke 2:32 we have, in the Babe in Simeon's arms. One who was "a light for revelation of the gentiles", who were to be brought under God's eye by Christ for blessing, whereas the book of the Revelation is the unveiling of the European world and its outgoings, so that we may learn what is going to happen; the assembly has a place in it all.

It steadies the believer as, like Ezekiel, we see the frame of a city, the city of God. You see how important it is to be in a secret and this by the Spirit. You say 'we have it all in Revelation', but how many understand that book, which is designed to be for private information for the saints?

(Revelation 1:10 - 19 quoted).

You see that whilst it is all there it can only be understood by the Spirit. "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day". And so, as in Mark 14, they are led by the Lord to the mount of Olives, they are led into the link with heaven. We are, as it were, in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and hence our capacity for receiving private information. The truth is hidden there, but not to those who are "in the Spirit"; it is by the Spirit we understand all things. This steadies the soul and separates one from the course of this world and from its political atmosphere.

In John we have an example set for us as to ministry, and among other passages it shows us the Lord in isolation. This gospel particularly stresses the isolated positions in which He is seen in His ministry. "Every man went unto his own house.

Jesus went unto the mount of Olives". John 7:53 - 8: 1. This position of isolation stands out as one of the most prominent because it is set over against "every man". His position is different from that of every man. If we are to serve we must learn to be thus isolated. It is much easier to serve in a sympathetic atmosphere than in an unsympathetic. The Lord had to serve in an unsympathetic atmosphere, and though unfolding the greatest light, He was alone. This isolation is a test, but necessary if we are to be effective as servants for we must learn to be alone, and yet not alone, for He says "I am not alone", John 8:16. He went to the mount of Olives, the point nearest heaven. He did not retire there, nor was He withdrawn by just a stone's cast; everyone had gone home.

May I remark on the power of our homes, of the time, thought, and money expended on them. The more sumptuous, the more attractive to the flesh, the more likely they are to draw us away when we should be on the mount of Olives with Christ. Our homes may be a link with the world instead of with the mount of Olives, and thus our outlook will be to the world, and need we be surprised if our children go to where we look!

He spent the night on the mount of Olives and then early in the morning He came again into the temple and sat down and taught. The chapter which follows is one of the most wonderful in Scripture and all hangs on what we have here. How can we expect to come in to the people of God to teach and serve except as we frequent the mount of Olives?

Mere reading will never make teachers nor preachers. Those whom the Lord intended to make preachers He chose and took to the mountain so that they might be with Him, and if we are to be effective in ministry it will only be as we frequent the mount of Olives. "He sat down and taught them"; coming in in the early morning with all the thoughts of heaven

in His mind and heart He sat down and taught.

I commend this to all who would aspire to serve the saints, and ability to serve is available as we desire it. The service is as heaven imparts, and one serves as coming out of heaven.

In this passage we have the incident of the woman, and how in meeting her guilt and the religious men who accused her. He stooped down and wrote on the ground. The One who comes with thoughts of heaven in mind and heart is ready to stoop down. The first stooping forces out the accusers; they might have stayed, but they went out from the light. She did not go out and so He says, "Neither do I condemn thee".

He was not only the Teacher of what was in heaven, but this incident shows that He had stooped down in order to save the sinner, and so it follows the thought of the house, as to which He says, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed", John 8:36.

MAINTENANCE OF THE TESTIMONY LOCALLY

Judges 1:1 - 20

J.T. We see here the sovereign disposition of God in the selection of Judah and the brotherly spirit in Judah corresponding with that; then there is the exercise as to the need of springs of water, that is the Holy Spirit. I thought that under these heads we might get help as to how we move in a local way in the maintenance of the testimony of God.

Ques. Is this a little hint of God's thoughts coming out in the selection of Judah in the way of trial?

J.T. Yes, I think so. It says, "The children of Israel asked" (verse 1); this is a beautiful touch at the outset of Judges and brought out their dependence on God and thus made room for the sovereignty of God; and as room is made it came into evidence. They asked of Him; no one takes things on himself. The principle of government in the assembly is that room is made for the divine disposition and thus we have God's thoughts for His people. Then the spirit of the brother goes with that and the subjective need for the Spirit. The woman Achsah refers to the subjective need; no doubt this ought to be experienced, but it is ever present among the saints; however much light and ability we have in warfare, things cannot be kept going in freshness and vigour without the Spirit. Things here are all in Achsah's favour, a south land; there could be no more favourable position. It is wonderful the way in which we have all that God is, in our favour. He acted in the resurrection of Christ and the gift of the Spirit. Achsah represents a continual demand -- a sense of need of the Spirit so that there should be freshness.

Ques. Why did this take place after the death of Joshua?

J.T. It is as seen in the New Testament after the apostles were removed. Joshua represents the direct authority of the Lord, and as such an one is removed it remains for God to indicate His disposition. The question of divine disposition is not a matter of anyone coming forward. The Lord makes it evident that room is created for it. Hence the immediate answer, "Judah shall go up: behold I have delivered the land into his hand". So victory is already assured and makes room for the divine disposition.

Rem. This is seen centuries afterwards, right down to the birth of Christ. He was of the tribe of Judah; we see it in David, too. The Lord is far-seeing and acts in power.

J.T. I think, too, that there is a suggestion of the Lord's reserves, when, after the passing of Joshua, Judah comes in with reserves. We also see this suggested at the end of Judges. It does not say, 'Let no one go up': saints are not left like that, but, "Which of us shall go up?" It is helpful to see that Judah recognises the need of his brother: he "said to Simeon his brother". It is a most important thing in the ordering and maintenance of the testimony to make room for God and let Him decide. He has His own way; it is for those who have eyes to see it. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. The response on Simeon's part, seen in his readiness to go, shows the spirit of a brother.

Rem. That is the only way for true happiness.

J.T. If you see what the Lord is doing it gives a sense of peace and victory. God is not only disposing of things; He gives results, too. He says, "I have delivered the land into his hand". And then Judah said to Simeon his brother, "Come up with me into my lot, and let us fight against the Canaanites". In Judah we see a beautiful spirit; you link the brethren

in all you do to ensure unity and sympathy. He said to Simeon his brother, "Come up with me into my lot, and let us fight against the Canaanites, and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot". The two were typical; it brings out the brotherly feeling. Where brotherly feeling exists we have success, but in the other instances later in the chapter there is no success. In verse 1 we were noticing that the whole of the children of Israel raise the question, so that in any exercise no one is exempt; each has his own exercise. It was a national affair; that is, it affects everybody in the meeting.

Ques. Does it show any weakness on Israel's part in that they had not taken possession of the inheritance?

J.T. They had not cleared the land yet. Evidently they were slack. The early verses call attention to what God was doing. It is a question of what was there after the death of Joshua; there was such a situation there to make room for God to act. What the Spirit emphasises is the happy state after the death of Joshua to which the Lord is pleased to afford His help. This is a book of sorrowful declension. From the standpoint of the nation, the beginning was the brightest spot in the book. We see revivals here and there among individuals later.

Rem. We should exercise means whereby a good beginning may be made. If there is room for the Spirit this ensures we shall have a good ending as well.

J.T. The book of Joshua corresponds to Ephesians. Provision is made for the conflict at the end of Ephesians; it can only be undertaken in the power of the Spirit and only in that way can it be maintained. Hence much prominence is given to the Spirit in this book. The Lord gives the Spirit prominence in John's gospel in connection with His provision for the disciples for maintenance, in the Supper. John makes room for the Spirit so you get

enlargement. So here in Judges we get "springs of water" and in Deborah's song "the clouds dropped water" (Judges 5:4), and in chapter 7: 1 the Spirit is referred to in "the spring Harod" where Gideon marshalled his army. Then in verse 4 the men had to go down to the water and were tested by it. In chapter 15: 19, the place was called"En-hakkore, which is in Lehi" -- "the caller's spring"; so there was freshness. In the end of the book the result is seen in Phinehas with whom the covenant of life and peace was made; he is seen standing before the ark of God: that was the testimony secured.

Ques. What would the upper and lower springs suggest?

J.T. The upper spring suggests the truth of Ephesians and the lower one the truth of Romans; thus they cover the whole sphere of the Spirit's activity on earth. We have the upper first to get adjusted to the heavenly side by the Spirit, and then the lower springs come in and adjust us on earth; so we pay our debts by the Spirit; the whole field is covered by these. Othniel suggests spiritual energy to take up this land and Achsah shows how things are maintained. We are considering the anti-typical point of view. We may have light and energy but we must have the Spirit.

Rem. We are not maintained on ecclesiastical lines, but whatever is in the Spirit brings in victory. We need to encourage the desire for that maintenance in the Spirit.

J.T. The first part is to make room for the sovereign disposition of God. God has set certain gifts in the assembly. He does it. That is the one thing to make room for to begin with. There is no hope of the second without the first. Then there is the great desire for the activity of the Spirit in the form of a spring.

Ques. How can we apply that about Judah today?

J.T. There is some line that God has given you to do. You do not want to be independent about that. You see what Judah said to Simeon his brother. The dominating feature of christianity is that it is composed of brethren. When Saul was to be received into the assembly God prepared a brother to receive him; so Paul says, "All the brethren with me", Galatians 1:2. Be sure you have them all. You cannot overcome that. So always there is a present ministry. It is not merely that we have what was set up by the apostles, but that we have the direction and the power of the Spirit to maintain us in it. It says, "The children of Israel" not Judah. God says, Judah. So the saints collectively should ask God for direction. God comes in and makes room for us.

Ques. Would you say the husband here came under the influence of his wife?

J.T. Yes, this is one of the very few instances where the husband comes under the influence of his wife, and is helped by his wife. When she came to him, "she sprang down from the ass". It is divinely selected to point out what she aimed at. She, in the presence of her father and springing from the ass, shows spiritual, not natural, agility -- not agility in a natural way but spiritual agility.

Rem. Everyone in the meeting should be at the disposal of Jehovah.

Rem. If room is made for God, He can come in and then we keep it as He orders it. Everyone is desired; it is not left to a few.

J.T. Yes. Judah had no aspirations that are mentioned. He was content to be subject to the will of God. In his invitation to Simeon he recognised that Simeon had his lot although Judah had the lead. As we know Simeon's inheritance was inside Judah's; this was all the more testing for Judah.

Ques. What leads up to the desire?

J.T. The ministry of the book of Joshua was to bring about brotherly relations and these had continued beyond the influence of Joshua. God was pleased to raise up a leader and then tested them to see the effect. Wherever God is working, room is made for it. The work survives. We could not have a better land objectively than we have in christianity; it is the unfolding of the mind of God for us. Paul said, "I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God", Acts 20:27. But the land was not enough for Achsah; she knew what she had and did not undervalue it, so that in addition to the gospels we have the epistles. The prosperity that marked this led to making room for God. "Judah went up; and Jehovah delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand, and they smote them in Bezek, ten thousand men. And they found Adoni-Bezek in Bezek, and fought against him, and they smote the Canaanites and the Perizzites. And Adoni-Bezek fled, and they pursued after him, and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes". Here we have a special case mentioned -- Adoni-Bezek. This is no ordinary man; but one the enemy is using. He reckoned himself as having done this very thing. The people of God have to make room for God. He acknowledges God's government. We see what they had to contend with, and the way they did it; he was brought down, his wings were clipped, and he acknowledged the righteous judgment of God. This is the great end of God, self-judgment. The principal thought is that it brings about relief to the saints, as he died after all. It records that Adoni-Bezek said, "Seventy kings, with their thumbs and their great toes cut off, gleaned under my table: as I have done, so God has requited me. And they brought him to Jerusalem, and there he died". We may take him to represent some person bringing in sorrow among the saints, a man

the enemy is using, as it usually is a man of consequence and ability: otherwise he would not become so prominent. We see here how to deal with such a man, cut off his thumbs and great toes. This power of limitation can only be done by moral power in others. Moral power is the means by which we can limit hostile powers.

Ques. Is Adoni-Bezek an Anak? Is the enemy in the land different as seen in Judges from Joshua?

J.T. There is something in the man, as the sequence shows, whereby he acknowledges God's righteous judgment.

Ques. Is it a little on the same line as Nebuchadnezzar?

J.T. In Judges we find different men dealt with in different ways; these men in a time of weakness assert power, yet underneath there may be something of God. He said, God hath requited me; this acknowledgment of God is a moral victory. They had got a victory and the saints were at rest from the disturbing power. It is not as we say, have no more to do with them, but we have a great moral victory, which is a great thing. We have seen it in our own experience, times without number, when there have been interference and hindering of the work of God, that we have been limited through lack of moral power to bear upon them. It is a great moral victory brought out here. It is a great moral victory because they take him to Jerusalem where he dies entirely. The spiritual meaning is that it is the city of the great King. It is the place of God's purpose. Adoni-Bezek was already limited; now he disappears altogether. All that is in opposition goes, so he ceases to be an enemy. In the government of God this man actually dies. With us it is the flesh and all that is in opposition. It all corresponds with the sovereignty of God. We have respect of how God brings in recovery of one who might be an enemy.

Rem. We must consider the person but be unsparing in regard of the principle.

J.T. His thumbs were cut off -- the man was there but he was limited. We see another class in verse 10, out-and-out enemies, sons of the giants, prodigies of evil. These serve to develop evil against the truth. There are those for whom there is no mercy. There is the book called Irrationalism of Infidelity, written in reply to Phases of Faith. The author of the latter had been nominally a christian and Mr. Darby assumed he was a christian and that there was a work of God there. So his book in answer to it is on the line of saving anything there is to save in the author. If there is anything of God there you want that; it may be underneath a heap of filth, but you want it.

Ques. What is the difference between Joshua and Judges in regard of the leadership?

J.T. Judges is different from Joshua; the leader is gone now, so what you do is to make room for God; we must adapt ourselves to changed conditions. The setting of the book is peculiarly the setting of our own times. Judah included Caleb, Othniel and Kenaz. There were great spiritual elements bound up in Judah. God took account of the saints and made provision for these peculiar conditions. In John's gospel we see how drastic is the refusal of all workings of the flesh. The word is like a sieve, so small a sieve, it preserves each tiny grain of wheat, like Nicodemus, for instance; in John 7 he was one of the council who were against the Lord. That chapter is one of incongruities. There was one cry lifted up in favour of Jesus, "Does our law judge a man before it have first heard from himself, and know what he does?" One tiny cry on behalf of Christ. It might only be an acknowledgment of God by some dignitary on earth, a king or ruler, so John preserves that little bit of God's work and in the end of John we get

Nicodemus bringing a hundred pounds weight of myrrh and aloes. So we must not be wholesale in the refusal of people. If there is something there of God we must respect it.

Ques. What does cutting off a man's toes and thumbs mean?

J.T. It refers to a man's initiative. You do not let such an one lead or walk.

Rem. In the case of Alexander the coppersmith no favour at all was shown.

Ques. Do we have any part in 'bringing to Jerusalem'?

J.T. It says, "They brought him to Jerusalem, and there he died". Brought to that place the flesh died. The brotherly spirit is there and the state at Jerusalem overwhelms fleshly aspirations and what man is naturally dies out. Moral power is the great thing to have and the only thing that stands. A man who has moral power cannot be gainsaid. You bring him to the city of the great King. Jerusalem viewed spiritually is a wonderful place. If we read the Psalms we get an idea of the wonderful place it was. Speaking of it in a spiritual way it is the assembly viewed as formed in sonship. In that atmosphere there is no sustenance for the flesh -- it dies.

The fighting against Jerusalem and taking it was an early act; the city was evidently rebuilt later before it was taken possession of by David. In verse 8 it was some past occurrence -- they had fought against it, and taken it, but even though rebuilt, the Jebusites still held it; but Judah is going to get it. Actually it was one of the cities assigned to Benjamin, but became merged into Judah who shows a good brotherly spirit.

Judah, while chosen of God, wants the brethren with him; that maintains the balance. In verse 17, Judah, in return, went with Simeon and slew the

Canaanites. We are using this scripture in its moral connection, not the historical one. Actually we know David takes the head of the giant before taking Jerusalem, the head speaking of the special power of Satan. That was dealt with later. So, following the thing out here, we see room is made for the Lord, and the power of the Spirit is the power for maintenance of the testimony.

After Jerusalem two other cities are named. Kirjath-Arba and Kirjath-sepher -- the city of Arba and the city of the book, speaking of the world of literature. The city of Arba is the city where big men shine; the idea of a giant is a man with a big name, with a title and written up in 'Who's Who'. In the city of the book, literature dominates through the intellect. Many young people are held by great heroes and others by books. Kirjath-sepher was a special exercise to Caleb. The great feature of the present time is books. In Caleb's family there was a desire for springs of water. The exercise to Caleb was how to overthrow things; this would be objectively by doctrine, and to maintain that by spiritual freshness we must feed the young from above.

These fathers in the Old Testament scriptures represented what God is. Parents represent what God is. Caleb was a wise father, he gave a south land and upper and lower springs. What Caleb found in his lot were three giants and it meant tremendous exercise; he sought the fellowship and spirit of his brethren to be with him in it. Offering Achsah his daughter to wife speaks of the assembly. Caleb the father holds out a reward to any who smite the city. Things are to be understood spiritually. Achsah's desire was for the Spirit.

Room is made for God in the early part of the book and there is a sphere into which the Spirit can come. Difficulties would be at an end with the exercise of the brotherly spirit. Carrying out things

apart from the brotherly spirit nearly lost a whole tribe, Benjamin, as shown at the end of the book. Caleb got what represents the mind of God. Hebron speaks of what was before the world in the divine thoughts; there were giants there but they were dislodged. "They gave Hebron unto Caleb, as Moses said: and he expelled thence the three sons of Anak"; he was worthy of it. This was a beautiful reciprocal spirit. 'They gave' corresponds with the primary thought of God, and His people are in accord with that here as those affected by it. In Joshua 15 he claims it and Achsah comes in and claims the springs; here it is not claimed, they gave it. The right to the inheritance is not in question here, but the exercise is how to maintain it.

We see the working out of this in localities. It was ever the divine thought that the assembly is one whole, not in the metropolitan sense. Jerusalem above is the whole assembly; the divine thought is that it is to be worked out locally. It is a question of making room for the Spirit -- there is a constant demand for the Spirit of God and in making room for Him there is the maintenance of the testimony.

THE GLORY

John 2:11, 18 - 25; John 3:1, 2

I wish to speak about the glory. This gospel refers to it more perhaps than the others. And the explanation is that it presents the Person to us. The opening verses refer to the glory of the Lord. It says, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory ... )" (John 1:14), as if to call attention from the outset to the fact that as He became Man, the glory was there, and it was there to be contemplated. It is to the end that we might become contemplative of the glory of Christ that I felt encouraged to speak to you on this great subject. The Holy Spirit would lay it upon us by this gospel that we should become contemplative. And indeed it is to those that contemplate that things are shown. When Moses was behind the wilderness, it says that a bush burned, as if God would call his attention. We would scarcely credit at the outset how difficult it is that our spiritual attention should be arrested; we are extremely slow to respond to what is presented spiritually. So that our attention has to be arrested. As Moses saw the bush he said, "Let me now turn aside" (he was arrested) "and see this great sight, why the thorn-bush is not burnt", Exodus 3:3. It burned, but it was not being consumed. A contradiction of terms, as we may say, in physical things. Spiritual things are always contradictory of physical things. And then it says (verse 4), "And Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him out of the midst of the thorn-bush and said, Moses, Moses!" This would show the importance that heaven lays upon our attention to spiritual things. And then He says (verse 5), "Loose thy sandals from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest

is holy ground"; this would remind us that these things are to be taken in holily. As Peter says, "I stir up, in the way of putting you in remembrance, your pure mind", 2 Peter 3:1. So Moses' feet were to be unshod. For He says, "The place whereon thou standest is holy ground". And so it is, beloved, as we approach this wonderful presentation of Christ, of God Himself, it is holy ground.

And now John says, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated ... )". He was amongst those who took notice of what came spiritually within their range. They contemplated the glory of the Son of God. It was, so to say, stationary. And he goes on to say, "A glory as of an only-begotten with a father"; he was not speaking of His activity. But when we come to this chapter, it is activity. It is being manifested forth, as it says. And it is of that I want to speak at this time, because what is manifested forth is for testimony.

There is that which may be seen, but what is manifested forth is for testimony. And then I want to show that what is thus manifested forth is to be preserved. It was to be gathered up, so to speak, and preserved in the temple. It is not to be left as other things are left. Man discovers things, as they say, in the heavens and in the earth. Astronomers discover things, but there is no idea of enshrining them in a temple. They are written in books, but a book is not a temple. A book may be burned, but "the temple of God" never. The bush burned, but it was not consumed. All the holy thoughts of God were shining forth, and they were to be preserved. A book is a record, and one would make much of books. Matthew speaks about a book. The first word in his gospel is, "Book". It is the "Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham". The Lord in coming into this world speaks about a book. He says, "Lo, I come (in the

roll of the book it is written of me)", Hebrews 10:7. Indeed, that is the first book, both historically and morally. The book that contains the wholehearted devotedness of the Lord Jesus to His God is surely the first book, both historically and morally. It is the foundation out of which every other book of any moral value must issue. All books that have not their roots in that book must disappear. They are of no moral value. It says "(in the roll of the book it is written of me) to do, O God, thy will". That was the book. And Matthew, as I said, begins with "Book"; but not the book of eternal thoughts, but a book of historical, but nevertheless spiritual, thoughts.

His generation begins with Abraham. The spiritual line is recorded in that book. "Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham". A most important book. A book which introduces the King to us. I have been impressed lately with the qualifications of a king. Balaam speaks about a shout of a king being amongst the people of God. There is power. A king is not simply one who rules. He does rule; but he is one who is great personally, who is royal. And Matthew brings Him thus before us. "The king", he says. It is the royal line. Matthew is a book of the generation of the King, so that we might have Him thus before us. He is the Root and Offspring of David. A paradoxical statement, indeed, for the human mind, but perfectly intelligible to the spiritual mind, and perfectly intelligible to the assembly. Indeed it is to the assembly that the Lord speaks when He says, "I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star", Revelation 22:16. So that He is the Root of David and the Offspring of David. Only a spiritual mind can take this in. The Lord in dealing with His adversaries puts that question to them. "If therefore David call him Lord, how is he his son?" Matthew 22:45. It was

beyond them. But it is not beyond the assembly. And hence, as I said, the importance of books. Then again John, in this very gospel, speaks about a book. A book is a complete thing. Luke speaks about a treatise, but John speaks about a book, and Matthew speaks about a book. John says virtually, 'This is complete spiritually. There are many other things Jesus did. But this is complete spiritually. It is a book'. But he had such a sense of the divine Person before him, that he says, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written", John 21:25. There should be so many of them. He was so impressed with the greatness of the Person he was presenting. But nevertheless he holds to the importance of his own book. It was a complete thing, as was the gospel of Matthew, and so also the book of the Revelation.

But as I said, a book is not a temple. And so as the Lord begins here, as He manifests forth His glory, we have the temple brought in, because the things that are manifested are not simply to be written down, they are to be held in the temple. It is true that the book of the law was in the temple, but it was in the ark. And the ark of the covenant was said to be the glory. That was Christ as cherishing in His heart every divine thought. So that the glory was in the temple, when the ark was placed there.

Well, now I wanted to show how this works out. We have in this chapter a remarkable set of circumstances. It is a marriage. This chapter is one of the most familiar in the Bible. The set of circumstances which it affords does not in any way correspond with the temple. It does not involve the temple. But nevertheless it was a sphere in which Jesus was highly regarded. He was invited to the marriage. He was not invited by way of patronage, as when Simon the

Pharisee invited Him. Here He was held in respect. And not only was He invited, but also His disciples. If I invited you and all your children, it is not by way of patronage; but I show that I am interested in you. I show a certain care. Simon did not invite the disciples. Moreover, Jesus' mother was there. Now it does not say she was invited. But she was there. And she was not a mere guest; she seemed to be of some importance, she had something to say in the course of events. She was interested. So that there seems to have been a sphere at Cana in which the Lord and His relatives and disciples were all free. And it is to be regarded of no mean importance that there was such a sphere, for generally He had to deal with what was contrary to Him. According to John we find that there was very little that was congenial to Him, but there was this sphere at Cana. And at the present time, too, there is found a sphere congenial to Him. Generally He is not at all respected, even by those who nominally believe on Him. But there are spheres where He is respected. The bridegroom and the bride were, of course, of more importance, but nevertheless He was there. And so the chapter is a sort of description of what we may find at the present time. But God is greatly interested in spheres where His beloved Son is to some extent, at least, respected. Even if only an individual has respect for Him, for the Scriptures, for His people, He takes account of that. And so I often feel with young people that this has to be taken account of. If you are not opposed, that is so much to the good. And some day He manifests His glory to you. Parents know how the Lord comes in here. Their children are not opposed, there is respect shown, and some day the Lord will manifest His glory and you will believe on Him.

Well, now you see what happened here, the Lord would acknowledge this position. True enough His attention was called to the deficiency in the supply of

wine by His mother. But she was not just right. A situation like this does not ensure spiritual individuals. Nevertheless there is a respect for Christ, and that is an immense thing. His mother says, "They have no wine". As much as to say, 'You are my son. It is my prerogative to turn to you. And as my son, you should help'. But that will not do. If we are to get anything from Christ, we must leave what is natural in abeyance. Natural things have their place, but they must not intrude here. And so the Lord says, "Woman", not 'mother'. "What have I to do with thee, woman? mine hour has not yet come". You see she is reprehensible, and so it is wherever the natural is introduced to obtain from Christ. The natural is to be laid aside. But nevertheless she was truly a child of God. When Jesus was born, she presented her tribute. It says of her, "And Mary said, My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour", Luke 1:47. But she has dropped a bit; thirty years have elapsed since then, and that makes a great difference. In thirty years you have either advanced or declined. And now after thirty years, she is not spiritually what she had been. But nevertheless she was a true believer. And so she says to the servants, "Whatever he may say to you, do". If we are to come in for the manifestation of His glory, the first great thing is subjection. You cannot assert your own will. She might have turned away and sulked or complained that He was ungrateful; but, no! You see she was a true believer. And a true believer always responds to a divine rebuke. "Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are profuse", Proverbs 27:6. And again, "Open rebuke is better than hidden love", Proverbs 27:5. This was open rebuke. The Lord loved her, but He rebuked her, even though she was His mother. Then He said, "Fill the water-vessels with water". There were six

water-pots. That is necessary, if there is to be manifestation. Then too, they were water-pots of stone. Mary, His mother, is an example of such. She was capable of containing water of purification. And she needed it. When you are out of communion, or where decline has taken place, water of purification is necessary. It is exceedingly important. The Lord came by water and by blood. He came with the means of cleansing. "Jesus says to them, Fill the water-vessels with water. And they filled them up to the brim". For it is full vessels from which the glory shines. They were to be filled with water of purification. And then He says, "Draw out now". Everything is to be at His direction. It is an immense thought. "Whatever he may say to you, do". They draw out and bring to the feast-master. He says, "Every man sets on first the good wine, and when men have well drunk, then the inferior; thou hast kept the good wine till now". It was the very best wine. It was the good wine. And it says, "This beginning of signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed on Him".

Now you see we have the glory. It is a great thing to see the glory shine. What are we going to do without it? The next thing is that He went down to Capernaum, which, I have no doubt, would have a dispensational reference. Then He is found at Jerusalem, and there there is hostility; what He finds in the temple of God is men selling merchandise and changing money. How incongruous! Can He bring the glory into that? Is there a home for the glory there? I look abroad today and see the religious system and buildings. Can I put any manifestation of the glory of Christ that I have by the Spirit into any of these buildings? Is there a home for it in them? No! I speak thus, beloved, that you may understand what I have in mind. The temple at

Jerusalem afforded no home for His glory. But He manifested it forth. It was not simply accidental or casual. He manifested it forth. That was the point -- He caused it to shine, but who was to house it? Well, the temple at Jerusalem was not suitable. He made a scourge of small cords and drove them all out. And He says, "Make not my Father's house a house of merchandise". How indignant He was! How indignant He is at the present time as He looks at christendom. He comes into the midst. He walks in the midst of the seven golden lamps. "These things says the Son of God, he that has his eyes as a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass", Revelation 2:18. And yet in the midst of all these things there is the manifesting forth of the glory of the Lord. "And his disciples remembered that it is written, The zeal of thy house devours me". But the Jews answered Him, "What sign shewest thou to us, that thou doest these things?" Think of the hardness of their hearts! He had shown them a sign. It says, "This beginning of signs did Jesus". But He did not call their attention to that. But He says, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up". Was He merely answering their question? No, beloved! He was speaking truth. He was announcing there was a temple. The word is changed. It is a different word from that used where they speak of the temple. It referred to the inner thing, the shrine. He was about to die. In resurrection every divine thought was to be taken up and secured. Every ray of the glory manifested was to be gathered up and preserved. But what He said did not convey that to them because they were incapable of receiving such a thought as that. He says, as it were, 'It is this temple, not that temple'. For that temple was a material temple, but this temple was His precious body. They did not catch His thought. There is not the ability in man to comprehend the divine thoughts.

The Lord was not speaking merely for the Jews. He was speaking for us. And so the Holy Spirit immediately says, "But he spoke of the temple of his body". The Lord does not say that Himself. It is the Holy Spirit who says it to us; He wants us to understand that the Lord is speaking about a temple that would be in resurrection which would contain and secure every divine thought. Nothing would be lost. All would be gathered up and preserved in Him, as indeed the latter chapters of this gospel prove. As after His resurrection He was amongst the disciples, every thought came out. So this chapter goes on to say, "When therefore he was raised from among the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken". Now you see the great result, dear brethren, the importance of attending to what is written. The Holy Spirit says it was the temple of His body. "But he spoke of the temple of his body". Why did they not believe before His resurrection, why did they not believe then? The answer is, beloved, that they were not capable of it. It is only by the Spirit that we take in divine things. Not even the disciples could take in the bearing of the Lord Jesus' ministry before they got the Spirit. Everything is secured for us in Christ risen. "When therefore he was raised from among the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken". Hence the importance of resurrection. Did they not believe the Scriptures before? I do not suppose that any of the Lord's disciples would have denied the inspiration of the scripture. But that is not believing the Scriptures. Believing the Scriptures means to see that it all refers to Christ. You read it and see Christ and believe it. They believed all He said. You believe all that Jesus said, if you understand that He is risen from the dead.

I just close with a word about 'man'. Immediately after the matter of the temple and believing in Jesus and in the Scriptures, you have brought to your attention that Jesus did not trust man, even though they believed. You cannot trust man simply because they assent or profess to believe on Jesus. And so it says, "But Jesus himself did not trust himself to them, because he knew all men, and that he had not need that any should testify of man, for himself knew what was in man". There is a remarkable scripture in Ecclesiastes. It says, "What man is, is known", Ecclesiastes 6:10. This sheds light on conditions at the present time, because there is so much inquiry into the origin of man. Solomon said, "What man is, is known". Modern scientific men say, 'No, we are investigating'. And that means that they do not know. They do not know, and they are only throwing up clouds of dust. How can they know? They shall never know! John would manifest what is known. "We speak that which we know"; that is what you want, what is known. The Lord knew what was in man. He amplifies what Solomon says, "What man is, is known". John says, as it were, 'Jesus is the One who knows, and He did not trust man'. They are not to be trusted, not even my own heart, naturally. "What man is, is known". But then it immediately goes on to say here, "But there was a man". He is a remarkable type of man. "He came to him by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art come a teacher from God". That is the thing. These notorieties talk about man's development, but they do not profess to come from God. "Thou art come a teacher from God"; this was said by a man on the way to the temple. I mention this so that you may understand that the temple is now composed of men who recognise that Jesus is come from God, a teacher. The Lord says, "It is needful that ye should be born anew". There was to

be an entirely new start. He spoke of the temple in which everything says, "Glory". Who is to have part in the temple of God? Men who are born again, only such. The Lord outlined to Nicodemus the truth by which we have men who can be trusted. You cannot have the temple unless you have trustworthy men. The truth contained in the second chapter is Christ risen, and the saints are to correspond with Christ risen. "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God ... ?" (1 Corinthians 3:16), and again, "All the building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord". So that every divine thought is cherished. The assembly comes down from God out of heaven, having the glory of God. Her shining is like a most precious stone; the manifestation of the glory of Christ will shine there.

Well, beloved, that was all I had to say. I hope you will be able to follow so as to get an idea of the temple and that the glory is in it. It is enshrined and preserved there. In due time it will shine forth and that blessed world shall be lighted up with it. "When the Christ is manifested who is our life, then shall ye also be manifested with him in glory", Colossians 3:4. Wonderful contemplation, and wonderful hope and expectation! "We boast in hope of the glory of God", Romans 5:2.

THE AUTHORITY AND INFLUENCE OF CHRIST

Song of Songs 8:5; 2 Corinthians 3:1 - 18

J.T. It is evident in the Canticles that the apple tree alludes to the Lord, and that the feminine speaker had been awakened, or raised up, under Him; and I thought that that idea would have a connection with the epistles to the Corinthians in that the aim of the apostle in writing to them was to awaken them under the authority and influence of Christ, so that they should be formed, as it were, and brought forth. There is much that answers to the idea of mother in the religious organisations around, but wherever the assembly is recognised, wherever believers walk in the light of it, the aim should be that those coming in should be nurtured under the authority and influence of Christ. It is only thus that there can be right formation, that there can be children according to God. The bride earlier had said when she found the Lord, having sought Him that she brought Him to her mother's house; that is, as finding the Lord she would connect Him with the assembly, so to speak.

Ques. Is the assembly the mother?

J.T. Well, it is Jerusalem above that is said to be our mother, or the mother of us all. The Corinthians were disregarding the authority of the Lord and were making much of one another as men, so that the apostle had to say that they were ignoring the dignity of the Lord; so the idea of the apple tree, I think, enters into these epistles. It is seen in the first epistle in the way in which the apostle asserts the authority of the Lord throughout. In introducing the Lord's supper he brings in that by which the Lord intends to influence us, so that we have His authority and influence over us, built up on what He is personally,

for we are called into the fellowship of God's Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ques. Do you mean by the thought of the Supper that we are brought into the gain of the mother?

J.T. Yes. That is the means, I think, by which the Lord maintains His influence over us. It belongs to those who have come to recognise what He is "as the apple-tree among the trees of the wood"; such would say, "So is my beloved among the sons".

Ques. What are the things you refer to in saying there is much in the systems around that answers to the idea of mother?

J.T. Well, take any of them, particularly Rome. It is formally alluded to as a mother: "Her children will I kill with death", we read; and so all the others in a lesser degree, of course, but nevertheless truly so. The thought of 'mother' corresponds with the idea of a system that gives character to those who come under its influence. Each system has its organisation and its peculiarity; it may be some distinctive doctrine that is laid hold of, but those coming under the nurture of the particular system take out of it its character and in every case its bondage. It answers to what is said in Galatians. Hagar "answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children". Every earthly organisation is in bondage with her children, but we, brethren, the apostle says, "are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free", so that we come under another system, a heavenly system and hence take on its liberty. The Corinthians were fast drifting back into that which was in bondage, but they were corrected in this way that the apostle asserted the authority of the Lord over them and brought them back under His influence. In doing that, by bringing in the Lord's supper, he brought in the reminder that Christ and the assembly are inseparable. "The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?",

but then it is also a symbol of the unity of the saints so that they are inseparable.

Rem. So that the one loaf in that way would speak of the unity of the saints.

J.T. It would; it speaks to us of Christ and at the same time of the saints, and in holding these two thoughts we are brought up under right principles and right influences so that we are not bondwoman's children. There is much therefore made of the mothers in Canticles and this is so, too, in the New Testament and that both in a bad sense and in a good sense. We have to be on our guard against the bad feature of it. We cannot correspond with the divine idea of children unless we are brought up under the right mother. To make it simple, a right mother is one who is truly in fellowship.

Rem. Everything hangs on the apple-tree as Christ personally.

J.T. Yes. In chapter 2: 3 she makes the comparison "as the apple-tree among the trees of the wood", but then that would be the result, I think, of what is stated in chapter 8, verse 5, which had already taken place -- that is, she had been brought up or raised up under Him.

Rem. I suppose the weakest meeting that ever was on earth is greater to heaven than the whole Roman system.

J.T. I am sure that is true, and very forceful, too. It shows how much moral value there is to be attached to a few who are governed by the light of the assembly. There you have the divine ideal, the paternal and the maternal combined. I think the apple-tree would correspond with the paternal side. Take the gospels, for instance, and see how believers were drawn to the Lord and gradually came to acquire a knowledge of Him, and as they did so He dominated them -- they came under His influence and rule; and in gaining

His place thus He brought in the love of God. It is in apprehending His dignity -- His greatness, that you can see how He could bring in the love of God.

Ques. Does that give an indication of "the glory that excelleth" in 2 Corinthians 3?

J.T. Just so, for Moses could not have brought in the love of God. It is true indeed that Israel came up out of the wilderness leaning on her beloved, and that there is an allusion to that in this verse. She came up out of the wilderness, as in the kingdom, supported, as it were, by Moses, but he was but a type of the Lord. She came up as having been under the apple-tree, because as having come out of Egypt she gradually acquired a knowledge of Christ typically. There were three things combined: first there was the ark, then there was Moses, and then there was Aaron; each presented to Israel some feature of Christ. But Moses rose in their estimation; God caused him to acquire a place from the period of the golden calf when the tables of the covenant were broken. He was bringing in a testimony to God into the camp but the golden calf was there. He broke the tables and then he says to the Lord, "Blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book", Exodus 32:32. The Lord had said, I am going to destroy them and I will make of thee a great nation -- a wonderful opportunity for man after the flesh -- he would grasp at it, but Moses refused that. He says, 'No, I have to think of Thee, what will the world say about Thee'. Then too he thought about the people and he knew God loved the people and therefore he does not say 'blot them out', but 'blot me out'. There was the apple-tree in the spirit of it. Moses was qualifying there. He was showing the Spirit of Christ in self-sacrifice, and from that point onwards Moses rises and rises until God comes down to the door of the tabernacle that he has spread and talked to him, speaking to him as a man speaks to his friend, face

to face. God honoured him and then He told him to come up again with two tables of stone, but he was to make an ark this time -- "make thee an ark of wood", Deuteronomy 10:1. That meant that Christ would become man, it would be a question of Christ in manhood. And I will give you the law again, I will write on the tables and you will put them into the ark. They will never need to be broken again. It is a figure of Christ come in. He will have the law within His heart and will maintain it. He will bear the curse Himself of the broken law, and in doing that He will bring out not only His own love for the people but the love of God. Well, there is no one in the whole universe who could do that but Himself, and so He thus acquires a place in the soul of the believer as distinguished above all others. "As the apple-tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons". You know Him thus. He has come up into your soul in that way.

And then Moses comes down from the mount. He comes down with this new law. It is in principle the new covenant and so his face shone. Thus Israel was brought up, raised up, under him. She was reinstated, you might say, under Moses but Moses with his face shining. Of course it was not a perfect state of things -- "not as Moses", we read, but here you have the perfect. The book of Deuteronomy, I think, unfolds to us what Moses was. The children of Israel were brought up under him. In reading Deuteronomy you will see what a place they had in his heart.

Ques. Do you think that Paul in a way would answer in character to Moses when he speaks of himself here as competent as a minister of the new covenant?

J.T. I think that is it. "Has also made us competent, as ministers of the new covenant" as Moses was, in as far as he could be. It is a remarkable

thing that these covenants are so much worked out in connection with Paul's ministry.

Rem. Moses had desired to see the glory of God, but they had gazed on the glory of the Lord.

J.T. The enemy was attacking the Lord through men in Corinth. They were attacking Paul, and Paul in the first and second letters labours much to establish what his ministry was.

Ques. The ministry would beget confidence in God. Is that thought suggested in leaning upon the arm of her beloved?

J.T. Yes, that is so. In reading Deuteronomy you see what an influence Israel had been under all these forty years when God nourished them in the desert, by the hand of Moses and Aaron. He nursed them through that instrumentality -- by the hand of Moses and Aaron, for God ever acts mediately through others -- through Christ and through servants. Hence the apostle and those who laboured with him were competent as ministers of the new covenant. The minister would get competence from God. You get the competency leaning on the arm of the beloved.

Ques. Do you mean that it is as being with God we can be for God?

J.T. Well, I think that is how it stands. Moses was with God and as he came down from God his face shone. In the ministry expressed in these epistles we have the effort to awake the saints under the apple-tree -- he raises them up under Christ.

Ques. You were speaking of finding the Lord. Is that the idea of our finding the Lord?

J.T. Yes, we do not want to see any other. All true ministry is to awaken people under the apple-tree. I think that is what is going on at the present time. All ministry of the Spirit has in view to create exercise and awaken people in regard of God. But it is under the apple-tree. You are not to move away from that. The Canticles show, I think, how the

heart becomes attached to Christ so that you do not move away from the Lord. If you have tasted that the Lord is gracious, that is the result of ministry. It leads you into relationship with Christ, and you want to remain there. If you are brought into touch with the Lord you soon want to stay with Him. The bride was awakened under the apple-tree. Her mother brought her forth there. We do not want to bring young people under any other influence, or to have any other influence brought to bear upon them. She was brought forth there. "There thy mother brought thee forth". So that in chapter 2 she says, "As the apple-tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons". She is now comparing -- she has found out some of His worth.

Ques. Is it the spirit of things that would awaken us rather than the letter?

J.T. That is so.

Rem. So the apostle says he had espoused her to one husband that he might present her as a chaste virgin to Christ.

J.T. Paul says "we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus Lord, and ourselves your bondmen for Jesus' sake". That is the ministry that tells. Young people awakened under that want to stay there.

Ques. Would grace in contrast to law be part of the spirit of it?

J.T. Quite; not according to the letter but the spirit -- not the able presentation of things but the spirit in which they are presented. That was what marked the apostle. He tells us in the first epistle that he is not speaking according to human wisdom. He wanted to bring in Christ; "I did not judge it well", he says, "to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and him crucified". He knew that Man and if you want to introduce anyone you must know him. He does not say exactly I knew no one but Jesus Christ, but "I did not judge it well to know

anything among you save Jesus Christ, and him crucified", and I think that was how the apple-tree was set up, it was brought in there. They awoke under it and the second letter is to bring them forth under it.

Rem. So he would espouse them to one man as a chaste virgin to Christ.

J.T. Hence the chapter opens with the query whether he needed a letter of commendation to them. They were his letter written in his heart, known and read of all men. They were to know that whatever they thought about Paul he loved them and that is really a reflection of Christ. Whatever you think about the Lord He loves you and all ministry is to bring you to know that. An able minister refers to an able minister of the new covenant -- one who can bring it in in the spirit of it. You will observe here that it is not that Christ is the spirit of the new covenant but the Lord is that Spirit; it is a question of His authority, but His authority used to bring into your heart the best thing in the whole universe. When you see that that is what He is to do, you readily submit to His authority. He wants to bring in the love of God. The more authority He has the better, as it would become effective.

Rem. So that coming under this authority brings liberty.

J.T. Yes; I think the more the Israelites knew Moses the more they recognised his authority. They saw it was in their favour, it says, "he was king in Jeshurun", Deuteronomy 33:5. When they saw how good a man he was, how helpful he was, too, they acknowledged his authority.

Ques. In our case would that be to open our eyes to the glory of that Person?

J.T. Yes; and we come to see that the glory that excelleth is the bringing in of the love of God. He is making that effective and that is what Paul was doing as a new covenant minister. The first letter is

really a letter of the minister of the covenant as much as the second, only Paul acted wisely in the first letter because he had to use severe language; he had to deal with things contrary to God there. But in both letters he is aiming at establishing the Lord as the apple-tree so that they should be awakened under Him, as He says to the Colossians, "As therefore ye have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in him".

Ques. Would that verse in Colossians 2:6 refer to those brought up under the apple-tree?

J.T. I think so. I think the Colossians were taken account of as wakened up under Him. They had received Him. The subject of ministry is perhaps very little understood by the people of God. As I was saying, the apostle interweaves it in these two letters to the Corinthians.

Ques. Have we the thought of the maternal in the new covenant, that is, the thought of nurture?

J.T. Well, I think it works out in the way in which the love that the new covenant expresses is seen in the saints collectively. For instance, "confirm your love toward him" is a maternal thought. The apostle had dealt with the man with authority; "When ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one". But now they had to restore that one and he had come under the influence of the 'mother' in the reclamation; and so when the love of God is in the hearts of the brethren and active, young people and young believers around who are needing help come under the influence of the mother, the new covenant.

Ques. Would the thought of the mother be in the woman of worth (Proverbs 31) who looked well to the ways of her household, and whose children were all clothed and cared for?

J.T. Yes, just so.

Ques. Would you say that is the power to expel what is evil?

J.T. Quite; so that her children arise and call her blessed, and her husband praiseth her.

Ques. Would you say the spirit of the mother is expressed in Paul in Thessalonians -- "as a nurse would cherish her own children", 1 Thessalonians 2:7?

J.T. Well, I think you see in Sarah more the divine thought of the mother, because Abraham is enjoined to hearken to her voice on that point. It was she who said, "Cast out the bondwoman and her son", for the son of the bondwoman was not to inherit with her son -- with Isaac; that is to say, the saints as possessing the love of God in their hearts will not admit of a legal thing. I believe all the systems around are more or less formed by legality, the human element expressed in that way. Now love refuses that. It takes away our liberty. We want to be free children. We are indeed as Isaac was -- children of promise, children of the free woman -- and we want to retain our liberty, so we refuse Ishmael; cast him out, as Sarah said.

Rem. "So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us", 1 Thessalonians 2:8.

J.T. That is an excellent example of it, I think.

Rem. So souls grow into liberty, they do not reach it on the principle of fighting, but by growth.

J.T. The mother should see to that -- that is, each local company should see to it that the natural, that is the legal element, is not admitted.

Rem. We need to take account of how the mother bears us under the apple-tree.

J.T. Yes, those who are brought up under the influence of the light of the assembly are free. It is evident there is something about them that is different. In the christians around there is something

wanting. They are christians like others, but nevertheless there is something lacking. Paul, as a competent minister of the new covenant, expressed the spirit of Christ. The Lord is that Spirit. It was the Spirit of the Lord, only in the way of authority, and that is the paternal side, I think, but then they were to act. I have no doubt that the mother element was brought in in chapter 5 in dealing with the offending one. That is housekeeping according to God. We cannot keep house without dealing with evil. Housekeeping according to God means cleanliness, the expulsion of what is evil.

Ques. Can we be active with regard to what is maternal without the paternal side? Does the paternal come before the maternal?

J.T. Well, I think Paul's attitude all through is the paternal side, the authority of God in Christ. He was insisting on the evil being put out, but then they were to do it -- that is how the mother was brought in. The assembly at Corinth had failed. It could not be said of her that "The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her". The apostle in his first epistle was therefore asserting the rights of the Lord without coming himself -- he was asserting the rights of the absent husband. What is to be done is done by him paternally, but his concern was that they might do the thing, the virtuous woman in the absence of her husband, and that is what he wrote his letter for.

Ques. Does the mother teach us how to do the things in a right way?

J.T. Well, these letters to the Corinthians are to teach the mother how to do things first and then young believers coming in would be received rightly. We want to do things as the Lord would do them, as he says, "Receive ye one another, according as the Christ also has received you", Romans 15:7. Now the Corinthians had not given evidence that the heart

of her Husband could safely trust in her; and so His absence tests us. The first letter is to get them to do the thing. He tells them what to do but they had to do it. The principle of the assembly is the mother acting in the absence of the Lord -- acting as He would act -- carrying out His mind. The first letter asserts His authority and then brings in the Lord's supper by which His influence might be brought to bear upon them. The two letters show their love to the offending one, first in carrying the thing out, and then acting like God, confirming their love to him when he is restored. The wife acts like the husband and knows his mind. Another thing that comes out in the first letter is wisdom, indeed that is interwoven in both the letters. We get an illustration of the effect of wisdom in 2 Samuel 20:22, the wise woman of Abel who went to the people of the city in her wisdom and got them to do the thing. They cut off the head of Sheba and cast it to Joab. And that is what came to pass in Corinth. They did the thing -- had to do the thing, for they were responsible to answer to the assembly universally in keeping the Lord's commandment.

Rem. The first letter to the Corinthians opens the way for love.

J.T. It does; so that a man restored ever afterwards would say, 'Well, I was brought back under the influence of the Lord, the brethren showed great kindness to me. They had compassion and consideration for me'; that is the mother element active toward him.

Ques. Would that be one of the ways in which we can gaze on the glory of the Lord -- seeing a reflection of what is in heaven?

J.T. Well, there is certainly truth in it anyway. The assembly should be Christ's glory and I suppose that would convey the thought. If you are taking up a brother who has sinned, but who has judged his

course, and restoring him you are really reflecting Christ. That is on the mother's side. I believe all the epistles and the gospels are to bring out this feature in the saints -- a feminine reflection of Christ. So that every one that comes in comes in under the mother. The mother brings them up in the admonition of the Lord. She does it, "There thy mother brought thee forth".

Ques. Would that have a transforming effect?

J.T. Quite.

Rem. That is to say you have to be under the influence of Christ yourself before you can help another.

J.T. Quite so, and young believers ought to be able to testify to the effect of Christ in the brethren and to learn more in that way. Presently, as knowing Him, they come directly into touch with Himself. Paul says they became followers of us and of the Lord. As they saw Paul they saw Christ in Paul.

Rem. The power of this livingly in our souls would give the cup a different significance.

J.T. Quite. I think that as we come under the influence of the love of God and the love of Christ, which the cup would denote, the next thing is to 'bring forth'. "There thy mother brought thee forth". You bring in something for God. It is the idea of helping in the divine way, going on constantly bringing in something for God. This is brought about as we enter into the two things in the cup -- the love of God and the love of Christ; it is "the new covenant in my blood".

Ques. Is His blood connected with the second giving of the law which we were referring to?

J.T. Yes. There it is the blood of the covenant -- the new testament in His blood; that is to say. He died to make the love of God effective. The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. We are changed from glory to glory by

the Lord the Spirit. There you have the same image -- you have the image of Christ, but it affects every one of us and thus we are qualified to reproduce. In helping souls we are bringing forth. There is a multiplying process constantly going on. In Acts 2 you have the idea of addition, in chapter 9 that of multiplication, addition by God and multiplication by ourselves. When it is a question of adding it is God doing it, but where the saints are edified they are multiplied. If the cup is rightly taken in, it would set every believer under the influence of the love of God and thus qualify them to bring forth -- getting something for God. God does everything really, but nevertheless there is this side of the mother care working out under the influence of the love of God in us. "There thy mother brought thee forth" -- there under the apple tree -- under Christ as Lord making known the love of God to us.

Ques. Would you receive strength to conceive seed?

J.T. I think perhaps many of us have overlooked that the seed of the kingdom -- the good seed sown by the Son of man in Matthew 13 in the second parable -- is persons and not the word of God as in the first parable. Look at that chapter, see verse 24, "Another parable set he before them ... The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man sowing good seed in his field". In the explanation the Lord says, "He that sows the good seed is the Son of man ... and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom". What do you say about that?

Rem. That would be in keeping, I suppose, with chapter 1 -- the generation of Jesus Christ.

J.T. It is very important to take account of the difference between the interpretation of the seed in the first parable of chapter 13 as given by the Lord. It is perfectly right that the seed is the word of God primarily, that is to say, the Lord in sowing sows

the word in the gospel but then after that you have persons sown.

Rem. So the state is there in a living person.

J.T. Well, quite. In Genesis 1 in the fruit trees whose seed is in themselves -- "the seed of which is in them" -- there is the power of continuation or increase. There is to be no intermixing -- "producing seed after its kind". Satan too sows persons -- the tares are children of the wicked one. They are all around us spreading abroad evil doctrine, and leaven. What are we doing? God has said we should bear fruit. Fruit is what I am -- what each believer is as a son of the kingdom. It is not only the light now but the thing itself. The divine thought itself is expressed in a concrete way in a man or a woman -- a believer.

Rem. The enemy sowing and the results of it ought to exercise us.

J.T. The question is. Are we sons of the kingdom in character? In Hosea the word "Jizreel" means 'God will sow' and so Jehovah says, speaking of Israel in the future when separated from all that is contrary to God and established in true relation to Him, "I will sow her unto me in the land". When Israel is sown in relation to God the thought is that she should multiply.

Rem. It is the Son of man who sows.

J.T. Yes. He has sown you here and me somewhere else, and it is to the end that there is a divine thing set up here livingly in a person and that is to increase.

Rem. The influence of good is greater than the influence of evil. It is great encouragement that we are under the influence of the kingdom.

J.T. Quite. So that your influence and service are sure to produce something. That is what you are aiming at. You want to produce something, and what you produce is after yourself. So in the measure

in which you are after Christ you produce something under the apple-tree. "There thy mother brought thee forth". You want to bring a soul you may seek to help as near to Christ as possible so that it comes under His direct influence. We find in the gospels little children brought to the Lord that He might lay His hands on them and pray. Those who were responsible for the little ones bring them under the influence of Christ; they bring them to Him.

Rem. If it is Christ, it will remain.

J.T. Just so. We ought to rely on that. The little ones were brought to the Lord and He takes them over and lays His hands on them and departs, "and having laid his hands upon them, he departed thence". But they were brought to Him. Those that brought them valued Him; they must have come into some knowledge of Him. I think it is a principle that what you have got you bring to the Lord and let Him put His impress on it, but the divine thought is that we should go and bring forth fruit and that our fruit should remain.

Rem. In Matthew it seems a great decline from one hundred to sixty and thirty-fold.

J.T. Yes; it is declension in Matthew; in Mark it is the other way. I think that the collective testimony would distinctly diminish but the individual would increase. Mark would stand for the individual -- the levite; but it shows what one man can do.

LIFE

Revelation 1:17; Acts 1:3; Acts 25:19

My remarks, I hope, will be brief so as to make room for others, for the prophets are enjoined to speak two or three and the others are to judge. So I thought that a word as to life would help. Everything from the divine point of view was set out in the Lord Jesus and above all things life. So that it is said, "In him was life". Death marked all else, but in Him was life; this was a great feature as He came into the world, becoming Man. Life was there and "the life was the light of men". So the light shone in the darkness. It was the light of life. Life came into a scene of death, betokening the mind of God to man, for if God enlightens man by a thing, He intends him to have it.

So, brethren, it was the divine intention that there should be a new beginning in the Person of Christ. Life was there and it was shining. It shone on men. "The true light was that which", as John says, "coming into the world, lightens every man" (John 1:9); not Israel as such but "every man". God indicated that He had that in His mind for them, and that the testimony of life should continue here. So I thought that it would be helpful to bring before you that God intends a living state of things among His people and that this hinges on our apprehension of Christ as living. Jacob was moved as he was convinced that Joseph was "yet alive". He was convinced. He had been sent before them to preserve life. Indeed, the name given to him by Pharaoh would signify that he was the "sustainer of life". This is a great thought, seen fully in the true Joseph who has authority over all flesh that He might give eternal life to as many as God had given Him. There

is to be a testimony to it now in a living state of things in the people of God and this state of things necessarily hinges upon their being in the light of Christ as life. As they apprehend Him as life, the Holy Spirit works in order to bring about correspondence to a living Person.

And so I read the verse in Revelation. The Lord laid His right hand upon John. Isolated as he was, he was to bear witness to the power of the life that was in Christ. In the gospel he does not attach his name at all, it is "the disciple whom Jesus loved", but it is "I, John", in the Revelation so that we have no doubt as to who is speaking. It was one upon whom the right hand of power was laid. One knows but little of the Lord's touch, but one can understand that the touch of the right hand of the One who is life would convey an impression which would enter into John's testimony in this wonderful book of Revelation. Energy marks it. It announces the break-up of man's world. It is impregnated with the energy of life. "Behold, the lion ... of the tribe of Juda ... has overcome". So that there is energy in the testimony; this has a voice for us, for we should be as those who believe what we say and as those who are affected by what we say. So the Lord lays His right hand upon John and says, "I am he that liveth and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death". That, you see, breathes energy, victory; Christ has the keys of hades and of death. He has supreme control over those elements which Satan once held. One dwells on this because it is teaching intended to qualify a witness. This book of Revelation is one of the most powerful witnesses there is and the vessel had to be prepared for it. What preparation there is in the appearance of the Lord to him! and then in His personal touch, symbol of His power, "Fear not; I am the first and the last".

You see where we stand at the present time in the light of this testimony. It is the power of life in Christ operative in the witnesses. The spirit of life from God entered into the two witnesses. It is a book of power and it is for us to enter into the spirit of it. Well now, in the Acts you have the Lord appearing to them, as it says, during forty days, alive. He showed Himself alive, after His sufferings, with many proofs. They were to have Him thus among them as alive after suffering for the testimony. He suffered. You cannot have testimony otherwise really. The first great witness in Scripture is Abel and he suffered in his testimony. Indeed, the idea of testimony is that. So that it is a living One who had suffered. That is the idea. "He presented himself living", it is said, "after he had suffered", Acts 1:3. He was in their midst with many proofs. Think of the Lord coming into our midst at a moment like this, literally. Paul tells the Corinthians about several appearances and amongst them is one in which the Lord appeared to above five hundred brethren at once. One would be impressed with the power that was there, for He was alive; but as one looked at His hands and His side the heart would be touched. It was after He suffered. The witness of the hands and the side would appeal to the affections -- the living One suffered. And so I pass on to Paul because he is the great witness. As he was taken up, the Lord said to Ananias, "I will show him how great things he must suffer". He was to be a minister and a witness. The testimony would bring out suffering. When Paul was in chains, Festus said of him, that he affirmed that Jesus was living. He spoke about the living One. There was no doubt in his mind in the affirmation, it was a certainty. "Last of all ... he appeared to me also", 1 Corinthians 15:8. "Am I not an apostle? have I not seen Jesus our Lord?" 1 Corinthians 9:1. He was crucified in weakness but He lives by

the power of God. The power of the living Christ was in Paul. It was the testimony of life. That is one thing that differentiates the people of God from all others. In the plague of dog-flies God said, "I will distinguish in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell" (Exodus 8:22), and how can we be distinguished except in the power of life? It is a question of the power of life and in virtue of that we are marked off from the Egyptians. It is not the correct doctrines that we hold or the correct ground on which we stand that distinguishes us. It is the power of life. Moses said, 'How shall we be distinguished, except by Thy presence?' It involves the presence of God. Christ was alive in Paul in his ministry. That was what I had on my mind, that there might be amongst the saints a living state of things. Paul was in the enjoyment of life in Christ. He said, "I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds", Acts 26:29. He was in the enjoyment of a living state of things in Christ.

ATTRACTION TO CHRIST IN ETERNAL RELATIONS

John 1:35 - 39; John 6:66 - 69; John 9:35 - 38; John 20:15 - 19

I have it before me this evening to speak about the Lord Jesus in His personal touch with us. I have read from John because he presents Him in His eternal relations. In order to apprehend the Lord personally and in His personal attractiveness we need to apprehend Him in His eternal relations. That is to say, we need to apprehend Him as at home. John having in view that those who believe on Christ shall be brought into eternal relations, eternal living conditions.

I need not remark that I take a most blessed subject, believing that the Lord and the sympathy of the brethren will help, so that He should become known to us in His eternal relations; for I hope to show that in the scriptures read we have persons attracted to Him, and that the attraction had an inward and upward bearing.

You all remember how that David on taking Zion built round the citadel inwardly. David is a type of Christ in the sense in which I hope to present Him at the present time. He is a type of Christ as personally attractive, and so he has gained an entrance into hearts; that is really what the taking of Zion in one sense means, the hearts of God's people taken up in relation to His eternal purpose. A wonderful conception. God takes our hearts up in relation to His eternal thoughts, and in order that He should have these hearts He comes out in the Son, who is, as seen in that relation, unofficially but personally attractive; so that David as he appears first in Samuel is said to have been ruddy, meaning that he was full of life. Then he is said to have been beautiful-eyed and

of a lovely countenance (see 1 Samuel 16:12, and note). That is the description given of him by the Spirit of God, and so his name is given for the first time in Samuel as he is anointed, his name meaning 'Beloved', as if the Holy Spirit were to say, 'Beloved!' as he appeared here. And so he became attractive; hence we have the description of him that was given by a young man who came into contact with him and admired him, and who, speaking to Saul in words of intelligent appreciation, describes David as "skilled in playing, and ... a valiant man, and a man of war, and skilled in speech, and of good presence, and Jehovah is with him", 1 Samuel 16:18.

You see thus what Jehovah had in this remarkable type of Christ, and so in the epistle to the Hebrews, the first chapter of which is full of the Person of Christ, after the Holy Spirit in a few brief sentences shows that the Son had come in, and that it was the Son, and that this One was the effulgence of the divine glory, the expression of His substance, and that He upheld all things by the word of His power, and that after He made purification of sins He sat down at the right hand of the Greatness on high -- after these things are said, conveying in majestic language the Person, the Speaker, the Spirit of God, brings forward the estimation of the saints, what they had to say about Him; and so the citations which follow in quick order in that chapter are from the Psalms, as if God were to honour His people by allowing them to convey in their appreciation of Christ the greatness of His Person.

Is it imagination, beloved, to say that some day we shall be called upon to give an account of Christ, as the feminine speaker in the Canticles is called upon to give an account of Christ? What account shall we be able to give? In the epistle to the Hebrews, the Spirit of God cites saint after saint, as I may say, to establish the glory and beauty of the Person of

Christ. Should we not emulate these saints of old? Should we be behind those who spoke of Him anticipatively? Surely not. The divine intent is that He should be known personally in His eternal relations, that if any of us are enquired of in that day in those eternal courts about Him, we shall be able to give a true account.

"Who shall declare his generation?" There is the question. "His life is taken from the earth". You will not find it in the annals of this world. No historian or biographer of this world can declare the generation of Christ, only those who have come to know Him, because He is out of view of this world, for His life was taken from the earth. Those of us who apprehend Him taken from this earth and gone into heaven, those of us who know Him now, those of us who know Him according to this gospel, shall be able to give some account of His generation.

The so-called synoptic gospels present Christ not as in His eternal setting: they present Him as come in to effect a certain thought of God in regard of what existed on earth before. In other words, to speak in a general way, these three synoptic gospels present Him officially. In Matthew He comes into prominence as the Son of David and the Son of Abraham. That is not an eternal setting. In Mark, while it is true that He is the Son of God, as expressed at the beginning of the gospel, "Beginning of the glad tidings of Jesus Christ, Son of God", it is Christ in relation to what existed before, namely the service of God. In Luke we have Him in relation to man who had been on earth for thousands of years, so that Luke connects Him with what existed before here upon earth: He is the Son of man; that is not an eternal setting. True enough, the Son of man is in heaven, and the Son of man ascends up where He was before.

But when we come to John we have the eternal

relationship. How one approaches it with diffidence! The sense one has of the need of the support of the Spirit to deal with it is difficult to express. And yet, beloved, that relationship is there, and it is of all moment that the saints should understand it. Things are written in regard of Him that man would not have written. Only the Holy Spirit could write them, and so we do well indeed to approach the subject humbly and yet confidently, for it is for us. As I said, beloved, it is the Son, and what I wish to dwell upon is what the saints in this gospel see, those saints who are singled out as having come into personal contact with Him, as having been personally attracted, so that it may not seem beyond any of us.

First we have John the baptist. True indeed that the writer of the gospel refers to himself and others in saying, "We have contemplated his glory", but John the baptist is the first person presented who was personally affected by, and personally attracted to, Christ. He it is indeed who is the first to declare in this gospel that "this is the Son of God". I say these things so that you may see that they are not beyond us, and so the baptist says "I knew him not". As John the baptist did not know Him by natural means, no man or woman on earth can know Him by natural means. He was related to Him, he was contemporary with Him in childhood, and yet he says "I knew him not". Of course he knew Him as his relative, the child of Mary and Joseph, but he knew Him not, nor do any of us know Him on natural lines.

He is beyond the range of the cleverest or the shrewdest, or the most experienced man or woman upon earth. They may write about Him -- sometimes in a patronising way -- but, O, they do not know Him. They are writing in the dark as if they were speaking or writing in their sleep. He is beyond their range.

John says, "I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptise with water, he said to me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit". And what does John say? What designation does he give Him? Does he refer to 'the Baptiser with the Holy Spirit'? No. He says, "I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God". He had knowledge of Him by spiritual means. What we find is that John designates Him as the Son of God. He had in him spiritual ability to name what he saw, and that is what is so essential -- to be able to give a right name to what we see spiritually.

And so it is that John the baptist introduces to us the Son of God from his own personal appreciation of Him. "I saw", he says, "and bare record that this is the Son of God". And so the knowledge of Him as such is within our range. I do not say that there was the inward effect or the upward effect, for John belonged officially to a past dispensation. "A little one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he" (Matthew 11:11), according to Christ's own words, for the reason among other things that such has access within and above.

The two disciples who heard John say "Behold the Lamb of God" followed Him. We now arrive at the first movement after Christ according to this gospel. It is a movement which began with the words of one who had given Christ the title of the Son of God. Were they likely to stop short? No, beloved, and so the Lord says to them as He saw them following, "What seek ye?" He would bring out what they had in their souls, and so He will ever. All divine questions put to us thus are to bring out what may be of God in us, however little.

They did not say that they sought the Son of God; they spoke according to their measure. "Rabbi" -- He was a teacher known to them -- "where abidest

thou?" You see the inner bearing. And so it is ever. We learn in the full light of christianity that the first movement is towards Christ as the great attractive Centre as presented by John. "Where abidest thou?" The bearing was inward. As I said, David built inward, securing the hearts of his people. The Lord leads inward. The movement is inward and upward.

And as He says, "In that day" -- what day? The day of the Spirit, the present day. "In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father", John 14:20. You see it is an inward movement, an inward thought. "I am in my Father". The idea is really suggested in this chapter -- the bosom of the Father. The bosom is an inward suggestion. And so the only-begotten Son was in it. As I may say, He came into it -- not that He was ever left of the Father. "Thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world", John 17:24. But as here in right of His own Person, in right of His attractiveness, His beauty in the eye of the Father, He had a place in that domain.

And so John had a place in His bosom. The Lord says, "In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me"; that is the present time, it is all inward. We have a place in His bosom, and then we come out in testimony. Coming out in testimony is coloured and characterised by what is within, and so He adds, "and I in you". Our hearts are the centre. He found a place in them, and so He is here in testimony but the place He is in now is known to us. He is in the Father, and we are in Him.

As I said, these two disciples enquired of Him; they wanted to know Him at home. Think of the vastness of the thought that lies behind it. But what they knew not then they knew afterwards. That is the principal point. They knew afterwards where He abode, and it is for us to know. "They abode with him that day. It was about the tenth hour".

Well, now, I want to go on to Peter. As I was saying, the drift of this gospel is inward and upward, the result being to fit us in mind and heart and affection for Him for eternity. That is what is in view. And so passing over Nicodemus who was deeply interested in Christ, and passing over the woman of Samaria, I come to Peter. One might show the same thing from each of those mentioned, but time would not admit going into every one. I take Peter.

There was a drift away from Christ. Many of His disciples went away back and walked no more with Him. What a spectacle for heaven -- that such a blessed Object, such an attractive Object, attractive in every way, should be left! Is there anyone here with any thought of going away back from Christ? One has known of such, alas! And so the Lord challenges them, "Will ye also go away?" I only want to bring out, beloved, how the attractiveness of Christ and those who came into special touch with Him, have an inward bearing. And Peter says, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal".

Words of life eternal! They do not belong to that which is without. You will not get any such words in the newspaper, nor in current literature, nor in current oratory. These words are not discussed in the athenaeums of the world: these words belong to another world. Words of eternal life. The Lord Jesus had them, and He has them. They are living words, they are not in a book but in a Person, words which He has to speak to any interested one. Think of words of everlasting life!

We have scientific books about animal life. Every species in the animal kingdom is discussed with the minutest detail by men called scientists; we have vegetable life also discussed. Who is able to discuss eternal life? What is any other life compared with

eternal life? And there are the words of it. Words are the means of conveying the thing so that it should be understood. These are outside of science so-called: they are in the realm of spiritual knowledge, knowledge which remains when every scientific book under heaven shall have gone into oblivion, never to be mentioned in the world again -- never.

The classics: what are they? So much rubbish, in the light of the words of everlasting life. Men may boast in them and be utterly ignorant of one syllable of the words of everlasting life. Peter heard these words. They had an inward bearing. They attracted him to Christ. He says, 'You have got them'. Then when he says, "We have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God", that is an inward thought. That thought has no place whatsoever in this world. The word, to be sure, is in every dictionary, but the thing is not anywhere in the world. It lies in the spiritual.

There is no holiness according to God outside of the work of God, in the souls of men and women, and only those in whom that work is know anything about holiness, know anything about the Holy One of God, for He is the Holy One of God. Not a holy One, but the Holy One. There is one glorious Person essentially holy. Peter apprehended that there was a minister of the sanctuary, and One in whom was infinite holiness. He who came out from God and was going unto God, according to chapter 20. He could go in in the right of His own Person; He goes into the infinite holiness of God; He is the Holy One of God.

Think of having such an One, as the epistle to the Hebrews sets out, for really what the epistle to the Hebrews develops is an extension of what Peter says here, with reference to the One who has "set himself down on the right hand of the greatness on high". Such a high priest! Think of the glorious Personage there, and He is there in infinite holiness. He has

made a way for us inwardly, and we have boldness for entering the holiest. It is in the apprehension of the Holy One who has made us holy, and so I go on to the man in chapter 9, a man with a remarkable history that the works of God should be manifested. The Lord heard that they had cast him out. We have had the words of eternal life, and the Holy One of God, and the next one who is attracted to Christ acquires a knowledge of Him as the Son of God. John the baptist found that out, but he did not belong to our dispensation. I am speaking of those who enter into our own dispensation. And so the Lord heard that they had cast him out. You may be an outcast from the world, but an outcast from the Christian circle is another thing, a terrible thing. To be an outcast from the world for Christ's sake is a glorious thing. For the confession of Christ this man was an outcast, and Christ was an outcast -- two outcasts together. The Lord wanted company, and when He heard that he was an outcast He found him. And so He finds the outcasts, for He is an outcast Himself and He knows the heart of an outcast. He is looking for all outcasts in the world at the present moment. If you are an outcast from the world He will find you. He found him, it says, and having found him He says, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?"

A wonderful question. And the answer -- "And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him?" He was ready for it. The Lord knew what was in his heart. He was ready for the question, and he answered, "And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him?" He says, "Thou hast ... seen him". How oft it is that christians see the Lord in His dealings with them. In this case he had seen Him. His eyes are opened by the Lord. He went and washed, and came seeing. He had seen Him. And then the Lord says, "He that speaks with thee is he". You see He is forming a link with this outcast,

a link of dignity. He is making him acquainted with the greatest Personage in the universe, and that is what He is at now -- that we should all become acquainted with Him in His eternal setting. His eternal relationships. That is what He was at with this outcast -- to bring him into the light of Himself in His eternal relationships, for He intended to take this man with Him into eternity.

That is what He intends for every one of us, to take us with Him into eternal blessing. And so the man says, "I believe, Lord". And he worshipped Him. May we not see that the beauty of holiness is the trend of the gospel? That Holy One is before you: worship Him in holiness. The Lord goes on to disclose that He is the shepherd of the sheep, saying that there shall be one flock and one shepherd, and then He says, "I am the good Shepherd; and I know those that are mine, and am known of those that are mine, as the Father knows me and I know the Father", John 10:14, 15. Think of it. What an inward bearing it has -- the knowledge that the sheep are known and known as the Father knew Him and He knew the Father. That kind of knowledge, beloved, the Son of God has brought into this world; it is utterly beyond the range of man. Think of being possessed of that knowledge. The Holy Spirit has spoken there, and the bearing is inward. It is the way of knowing divine Persons. Marvellous thing! Such is the instruction which is opened up to us in relation to persons who are attracted to Christ.

Now I go on to Mary Magdalene, because she is really the climax of this instruction. She stands out as truly attracted to the Lord. John makes much of her. Mary of Bethany disappears at the beginning of chapter 12. Mary Magdalene stands out prominently in John's gospel as attracted to Christ. She stood without at the sepulchre weeping. The whole world was a sepulchre to her, a graveyard to her.

The One she loved had died, the Object of her affection was gone. She is the vessel that He will use in this great inward and upward trend of His ministry and influence. She thinks He is the gardener. Her mind was on a low level although she loved Him, like the minds of many who love Him, thinking Him to be the gardener. He calls her by name. He has great things to disclose. He intends to use her for this inward and upward instruction. He says, "Mary", and she knows Him.

She rightly owns Him as Master, but that is not an eternal relationship. He has greater things for her than that. He would lead her and all those who hear her into the light of our eternal relationships. I hope these words will enable us to know that we are to be brought into eternal relationships with the Lord. And so He says, "Touch me not". What seems to be rude and unfeeling has blessing in it. It is no love at all to withhold from people the best there is; that is a false love. The Lord intended the very best for this woman. He says "Touch me not". He rigidly refused any link with her. He says, "I have not yet ascended to my Father". He was about to ascend. "Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend". It is the character of the thing here; it is not historic. We have no historic account of His ascension in John. It is the character of the thing; it is the One who does it, the One who ascends, it is the Person.

How He would draw the heart after Him as He goes up! "Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". You see the upward trend of the thing, to carry her away from the garden and the sepulchre into an eternal region. And so He says, "Go to my brethren". And she went to the disciples and told them she had seen the Lord and that He had said these things to her. I need not say that she

did not teach them; it was simply a message she carried that He had said these things to her, but they were wonderful things. They were things which Peter and John and the others could take up and formulate into doctrine, and they have been formulated into doctrine, built into men's souls, and have stood the test of time. Such were in this simple message, this profound message, this message of eternity, as I may call it, sent by Christ through a woman to His disciples.

And now they are gathered together. They have got the idea; they are within and the doors are shut. The thing is received into their souls. The doors are shut. What is inside those doors? The principle of eternity is inside those doors. Now I am not using simple words. What I am saying I know, beloved, if you will believe me, that what is inside those doors is a spiritual realm, and the spiritual realm is eternity. It is open to us, it is available to us. The trend of the teaching is inward and upward, and the taught are inside. They have received the message, they are inside, and the doors are shut, meaning, I apprehend, that their hearts are shut from all that is without, especially current religion.

When the Lord comes in it is a spiritual matter, and He says, "Peace be unto you". We have now the company, the result of the teaching; we have them within and Jesus with them. These persons are companions for Him, such as He can regard as His brethren in that eternal home. It is a marvellous thing, and it is presented in such simple fashion -- the apprehension of Christ presented to us in persons like ourselves so that it should be within the range of every one of us -- brothers and sisters. May the Lord bless the word.

THE TABERNACLE SYSTEM (1)

Exodus 26:1 - 37

A.F.M. Say a little as to the tabernacle, the table, and the lampstand.

J.T. I suppose that the table alludes to divine administration. In Exodus 25:23, 24, it says, "Thou shalt also make a table of shittim wood: two cubits shall be the length thereof, and a cubit the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof. And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, and make thereto a crown of gold round about". It is further said: "And thou shalt make the dishes thereof, and spoons thereof, and covers thereof, and bowls thereof, to cover withal: of pure gold shalt thou make them. And thou shalt set upon the table shewbread before me alway" (verses 29, 30). From this scripture we see that the table is a place of divine administration. It contains all the necessary accessories besides the bread itself.

A.F.M. It also sets forth representation. The bread is called the bread of God's presence. I wonder if the twelve loaves would suggest the twelve tribes of Israel.

J.T. I think so. Formerly, there was in Israel an administration on God's behalf. Of course, it also refers to our Lord's position here, in connection with which the twelve apostles were associated. They represent the complete means of divine administration. The number twelve is the most divisible of all the numbers. It points to the flexibility of those whom God would use to administer His bounty. They are available without breaking up the unity. They can be sent here and there in various parts of the world.

A.F.M. We see that two are sent out. In another instance, we see that Peter alone is sent on a mission.

J.T. Yes. The number twelve suggests that. It can be divided by 4, 3, 2, 6 and 12, so that you may have a great many parts. The table itself points to one whole. The bread suggests the richness of God's bounty.

B.F. To what were you referring?

J.T. I was referring to the table and the bread.

J.S. The bread sets forth God's bounty in Christ.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. What does pouring out suggest?

J.T. It suggests the Spirit. It is a question of what should be on the table.

Ques. Is there any connection with the table here and what is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 10?

J.T. I think that the idea of administration is not seen there. Referring to the table, we see that the dimensions of it are two cubits in the length, a cubit in the breadth, and a cubit and a half in the height. I think we have there the idea of testimony, and unity in humility. The length is two cubits; I think this sets forth testimony. The breadth is one cubit; this would suggest unity. And the height is a cubit and a half; the cubit and a half would denote humility, suggesting that there is more than what is seen. The half especially suggests that.

J.S. This is expressed in Jesus as Man.

J.T. Yes. As we said before, the half points to the humility of the Lord. He took a lowly place outwardly, but it did not alter His Person. In becoming Man, He came into limitation.

J.S. That is why the dimensions are given.

J.T. Yes. It suggests that there is more than what is seen.

Rem. It is written in John's gospel that the world could not contain the books if His works were all written.

J.T. Yes. The table suggests that the twelve were brought into correspondence with Him.

A.F.M. The height of the table was a cubit and a half. The half suggests humility.

J.T. Yes. You do not make yourself prominent in connection with your measure. For instance, the apostle Paul kept for fourteen years the secret that he was caught up into the third heaven; very few of us could keep a secret for that length of time. He was greater than what the Corinthians thought of him. When he did speak of it, he said, "For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool", 2 Corinthians 12:6.

C.N. So that if we look at the ark outwardly, we see a little box; but what stood connected with it was very great?

J.T. Yes.

D.R. Do you think that administration in connection with the table implies that the Lord would prepare a table for us in the presence of our enemies so that it should be a testimony to them?

J.T. Yes. I suppose that the table here is administration outwardly towards others; for it is said, if our enemy is hungry we should feed him.

J.S. In connection with the table, there is nothing set forth in it to offend.

J.T. Oh no! It shows that there is bounty.

B.F. Do you distinguish between the table and the twelve loaves?

J.T. We were dwelling on that a little while ago. The dimensions of the table refer to certain qualities in the saints. There is no doubt that these qualities were seen in Christ. But I think that they particularly refer to those who are used in the administration of the testimony. The two cubits, the one cubit, and the cubit and a half refer to certain traits of Christ. The half refers to the fact that one is greater than he seems.

Ques. Is there any connection with what Peter said to the lame man at the gate of the temple? "Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee", Acts 3:6.

J.T. "Such as I have" shows that Peter had something better than silver and gold.

A.W. The table comes into position immediately after the veil is mentioned.

J.T. It is remarkable to notice that at the end of chapter 26. A little earlier in the chapter the curtains are introduced with certain directions as to the materials and the way they were to be put together. It was an enclosure for those things which were brought in and set in order there. They are brought in in relation to the veil. In this system, there is the holiest and the holy place; and the end of the chapter shows how those things connected with the tabernacle were set in order in the holiest and the holy place.

A.W. That would confirm what you said of the table, that it represented administration outwardly.

J.T. Yes. There is the suggestion of light and food, "And thou shalt set the table without the veil, and the candlestick over against the table". We do not get the thought of the incense until the priest is mentioned; that is to say, not until we are on the line of approach. What is before us now has to do with God coming out to man.

B.F. Do the loaves represent the twelve tribes?

J.T. No doubt they do; but they represent more than that, especially in the New Testament. They would also refer to divine administration.

B.F. I was wondering how you would apply this at the present moment.

J.T. It is a question of administration and how much one is administering what is of God. Therefore we have to consider what is suggested in the dimensions of the table and how much we correspond to the

testimony, unity and humility. These things are suggested in the table. It is also said, "And thou shalt make for it a margin of a handbreadth round about, and shalt make a border of gold for the margin thereof round about", Exodus 25:25. I suppose it represents the moral dignity with which those who minister care for the saints. They do not 'lord' it over God's heritage. The apostles were in the lowest circumstances, but notwithstanding there was moral dignity seen in them.

Rem. Paul was content to work as a tent-maker. Do you think there was correspondence in him to what the half sets forth?

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Why is pure gold mentioned on some occasions and at other times simply gold?

J.T. I suppose pure gold would call attention to what was in Christ.

Rem. Would it refer to revelation?

J.T. Yes.

A.F.M. May we speak of God coming out as the primary thought in administration?

J.T. I think the loaves would suggest that.

A.F.M. The loaves were in the hands of the priest, I wonder if they would also represent that there must be priestly state on our part.

J.T. Yes. What is represented here is from the divine side. The priestly side of things is set forth in Leviticus. The important feature seen here is, "Thou shalt set upon the table shewbread before me alway", Exodus 25:30. It is more apostolic administration in connection with God coming out.

A.W. That is an important point; so that the brazen altar is seen in this connection, while when it is a question of approach the golden altar is mentioned.

J.T. Yes. Here it is God coming out. You need the priest in connection with the golden altar. Leviticus represents the priestly side of things. Everything

depends on him; one may bring his offering to the door, but the priest has to do with it. But in Exodus, what we see is God coming out.

A.W. I think that is why it is so important to understand the brazen altar.

J.T. That is why Exodus is so important, because it represents the truth from God's side.

Rem. I think you said a moment ago that certain things were set in order as soon as the tabernacle was set up, and the veil brought in.

J.T. It is said, "And thou shalt make a veil of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work, with cherubim shall it be made ... . And thou shalt hang up the veil under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the veil the ark of the testimony; and the veil shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy". I suppose it means that the veil suggests the humanity of our Lord. It is what He was here. The ark was put into the holiest. What the ark sets forth was seen in Christ. He was Himself the Ark, for it is written, "Thy law is within my heart", Psalm 40:8. What the cherubim of glory set forth, and all that was necessary for God to effect His thoughts, were seen in Christ. Then, it is also written, "And thou shalt set the table without the veil". This alludes to the twelve apostles being brought in in connection with administration manward. The table was set outside; it refers to Christ and the twelve.

B.F. Where would the ring and staves come in?

J.T. I think they would be seen in Numbers 4.

A.F.M. It seems as if the holy place is an expansion of the holiest. I suppose it would allude to God coming out in Christ as represented in the ark and in the veil; and then you have the table and administration.

J.T. That is how it stands. As soon as the veil is brought in, these things are mentioned: "that

thou mayest bring in thither within the veil the ark of the testimony ... . And thou shalt put the mercy seat upon the ark of the testimony in the most holy place. And thou shalt set the table without the veil, and the candlestick over against the table on the side of the tabernacle toward the south: and thou shalt put the table on the north side". I suppose the table is set where need is, where the pressure is.

Rem. It suggests what is adverse.

J.T. Yes. The Lord would come in at that point. For instance, in the gospels we see that five thousand were hungry. The Lord fed them. I think that suggests the idea of the table being put on the north side.

A.W. The brazen altar comes almost immediately after what is said concerning the veil. How do these things help us to understand the brazen altar?

J.T. I think these things refer to incarnation. The veil is His flesh, "Through the veil, that is to say, his flesh", Hebrews 10:20. God is seen in Christ. Then we were saying He met need where the pressure was; bread was there. In the feeding of the five thousand, as Matthew sets it forth, it is said that looking up to heaven He blessed the loaves; this means that there is an administration of heaven through Him. But the twelve also come in. Therefore it is further said that He broke and gave the loaves to the disciples and the disciples gave to the multitude. But in the second feeding, Jesus does not look up to heaven, and instead of twelve baskets, there are seven. This would emphasise the Spirit and the place He has in connection with the administration.

Ques. What does southward represent where it says, "And the candlestick over against the table on the side of the tabernacle toward the south"?

J.T. That is another feature of testimony. Light shows what God is towards man. God is favourable towards man. We see an illustration of this in the

prodigal. He knew what was in his father's house; therefore he said, "I will arise and go to my father", Luke 15:18.

J.S. It is helpful to see how these things are livingly set forth in Christ.

A.F.M. Would the feeding of the four thousand refer to Paul's ministry?

J.T. I suppose so. Speaking of the twelve. Paul said he laboured more abundantly than they all, "Yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me", 1 Corinthians 15:10.

Ques. In connection with God coming out, you have the mercy-seat spoken of. How does this apply?

J.T. I suppose you have something more in your mind.

Rem. I thought that the mercy-seat is the beginning of things in connection with God coming out.

J.T. It is the beginning of things as regards the gospel being announced. In Leviticus 16 the blood is put upon the mercy-seat. This is more like Romans 3:25, "Whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of his righteousness". But God approached men in Christ personally, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them", 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Ques. Do we see that in Christ personally before His death?

J.T. Yes.

A.W. The ark is there. You must have incarnation, "And thou shalt put the mercy-seat above on the ark".

J.T. So that the mercy-seat is seen here before the blood is put upon it.

Ques. What is indicated in the mercy-seat?

J.T. God is going to be merciful. His rights in mercy are set out in the mercy-seat. It sets forth

the basis for the expression of mercy on account of the blood being put upon it.

A.F.M. For this death must be accomplished.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. I think it is good to make a distinction of the mercy-seat subsequent on the blood being put upon it, and the mercy-seat apart from the blood being put upon it.

J.T. That is important. The cherubim were always looking upon the mercy-seat. They and the mercy-seat were one piece, "And thou shalt make two cherubim of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy-seat", Exodus 25:18. The cherubim represent the judicial authority of God. This was expressed in Christ as Man.

Rem. God has revealed Himself in Christ.

J.T. Yes.

A.W. Say a word about those whose sins were remitted or forgiven before the death of the Lord. It says, "To declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past", Romans 3:25.

J.T. God anticipated the death of Christ. The Lord asked the Pharisees in connection with the man sick of the palsy, "Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?" Matthew 9:5. If sins are to be forgiven the Lord must die. It was easier for Him to receive the Spirit from the Father and give Him than for man to have his sins forgiven.

D.R. We have an odd number here in connection with the curtains; what does it suggest?

J.T. I think it alludes to an excess of power. It is said, "Thou ... shalt double the sixth curtain in the forefront of the tabernacle". The figure refers to what came out in the Lord's ministry, how He went forward. He could say, "If therefore ye seek me, let these go their way", John 18:8. In going forward

one needs double strength, therefore the doubling of the curtain refers to the strength that is necessary to go forward. Opposition has to be met in all its force. But the rear has also to be brought up; hence we read, "And the remnant that remaineth of the curtains of the tent, the half curtain that remaineth, shall hang over the backside of the tabernacle. And a cubit on the one side, and a cubit on the other side of that which remaineth in the length of the curtains of the tent, it shall hang over the sides of the tabernacle on this side and on that side, to cover it". There was to be no exposure; the front and back were to be protected by the eleven curtains. These curtains were made of goats' hair. The sixth was doubled in front of the tabernacle. It suggests a doubling of that principle to refuse what is evil. Sometimes the rear position may be lost, therefore protection is needed there also.

A.F.M. Amalek came from behind; therefore it is essential that there should be a safeguard there.

Ques. Is it a protection to the humanity of Christ?

J.T. It is a protection to the whole system. It has an allusion to the fellowship of the Spirit, what we have inwardly; and the more we are in accord with it, the more rigid are the curtains. They also imply what was seen in the twelve. I think they refer to the whole system of christianity where there is a protection for the things of God.

A.F.M. Are these curtains the result of the Lord becoming Man?

J.T. I think so. The intimate relation between the curtain and the veil shows that.

Rem. The taches of the inner curtains were of gold; but those of the outer curtains were of brass.

J.T. Yes; divine love is seen inside, what is heavenly, but when you come outside you must have the brass, the element of judgment in your business, in your family, among your relations and with the

world. You do not carry on your business in the same manner as men of the world do. You are prepared to judge yourself if others are not.

A.F.M. It is the same material of which the altar was made.

J.T. Yes; the metal that is seen outside is generally brass. You cannot have happy meetings unless there is the presence of what the brass represents.

B.F. In the brass there is the suggestion that what is evil is judged.

J.T. You maintain the judgment of sin in your attitude in connection with everything of this world.

Ques. What reason did you give for the eleven curtains?

J.T. They suggest that everything is covered.

Ques. Is everything covered in view of preserving the presence of God?

J.T. Yes, we are to insist on these things. The truth will soon slip away unless we are marked by the refusal of evil.

Rem. There is additional testimony in the rams' skins dyed red.

J.T. There is the suggestion of maturity. The colour is changed, for red is very distinct. You are different now from what you were before.

Rem. The death of Christ has changed everything.

A.W. Is the covering of the badgers' skins over the rams' skins dyed red?

J.T. Yes.

A.W. I was thinking that the badgers' skins were not permanent. If the rams' skins dyed red are there, it will be seen by those who have to do with you.

J.T. The badgers' skins refer to that power to say 'yes' and 'no'; 'yes' to what is good and 'no' to what is evil. We have a tendency to give way to

evil for the sake of peace, but the badgers' skins mean that we are not to do that; you are not to respect people's feelings.

A.W. One does not seek for outward distinction. Do you not think he will spontaneously show what is represented in the rams' skins dyed red, if the truth is formed in him?

J.T. The badgers' skins refer to protection. They were a covering above the rams' skins dyed red. Naturally, we are afraid to hurt people's feelings; hence, we may adapt ourselves to our surroundings. In the badgers' skins is set forth the preservation from such a tendency.

B.F. In the rams' skins dyed red, there is the suggestion that a complete change has taken place with us; we are different from what we were before.

J.T. Yes, you see this in Paul as he went up to Jerusalem with Barnabas and Titus. He was clear of Jerusalem, so was Barnabas, and so was Titus. There were certain false brethren who wanted to bring in circumcision. Paul was not afraid to hurt their feelings, for he said: "To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour", Galatians 2:5. Later the question came up at Antioch. Now Peter was of the same colour as Paul at Jerusalem, but later Paul had to say, "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision", Galatians 2:11, 12.

Ques. Was Paul showing the red when he went to Jerusalem the second time, after the saints had told him not to go?

J.T. I suppose he maintained his distinction at Jerusalem, but he was influenced by Jewish feelings.

THE TABERNACLE SYSTEM (2)

Exodus 27:1 - 21

J.T. We did not speak about the boards in chapter 26. It is said of the boards of the tabernacle, "Thou shalt make boards for the tabernacle of shittim wood standing up. Ten cubits shall be the length of a board, and a cubit and a half shall be the breadth of one board. Two tenons shall there be in one board, set in order one against another", Exodus 26:15 - 17. In connection with the bars, it is written, "And thou shalt make bars of shittim wood; five for the boards of the one side of the tabernacle, and five bars for the boards of the other side of the tabernacle, and five bars for the boards of the side of the tabernacle, for the two sides westward. And the middle bar in the midst of the boards shall reach from end to end. And thou shalt overlay the boards with gold", Exodus 26:26 - 29.

A.F.M. You have something more to say about the boards standing up.

J.T. I think they refer to persons, believers; the curtains are more characteristic of what is effected in us.

Rem. The boards are standing on something.

J.T. They are standing on sockets of silver; they refer to individuals who are made to stand up.

A.W. I suppose that they had not always been standing up; they were down once. They did not grow that way.

J.T. They were cut down. I think it refers to the effect of the gospel.

J.S. I suppose they represent men in Christ.

J.T. They are made of the same material of which the ark was made. It is that kind of humanity. I

think it is a very durable wood capable of a great amount of pressure.

A.F.M. The dimensions of the boards were ten cubits by one cubit and a half.

J.T. That would approximately be about fifteen feet high.

B.F. I suppose it is true that the tabernacle was composed of what was the divine nature; the boards were overlaid with gold.

J.T. The thought is, that God is to be seen in testimony. I think the overlaying of the board is that God is to be seen.

B.F. The wood is presented here underneath the gold.

J.T. There is the special kind of humanity underneath the gold. God had visited His people but in a Man. Luke emphasises this. The intent was, that God Himself should be seen.

B.F. The wood would refer to Jesus; the Spirit forms in the believer the truth of Jesus in this respect. The believer is formed in the divine nature.

J.T. Yes, and that is what is presented in testimony. It is, "The gospel of God ... concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to be the Son of God with power", Romans 1:1 - 4. This would be expressed in the gold.

A.W. Do you think there is a correspondence between the ark being capable of sustaining the mercy-seat and the wood being capable of sustaining the gold?

J.T. Yes. I think so.

A.W. John said, "No man hath seen God at any time", but he says of the Lord, "The only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him", John 1:18. God is revealed in Jesus.

Ques. Do you think the board corresponds with what is seen in Romans?

J.T. Romans sets forth that the believer is brought into correspondence with Christ. In chapter 7 we see a man who delights in the law of God after the inward man. The Lord magnified the law and made it honourable; for it is said of Him, "Thy law is within my heart". It was never really set out until Christ came. Now in Romans 7 there is a man who delights in the law of God after the inward man; there is some correspondence to what the board represents.

Ques. Is the board standing up in Romans 12?

J.T. Yes, the Holy Spirit enables us to stand up.

J.S. We see Peter standing up with the eleven.

Ques. Was not the tabernacle considered to be the dwelling place of God in the wilderness?

J.T. Yes, it brings out the love of God as we see it in the book of Numbers. God was with the children of Israel; divine love was seen there in a living way. God has devised a means whereby He can be with His people in their journeys through this world, because He loves them; so that in this section of the Scriptures we have three different references in connection with the tabernacle. One is the inner sphere; it is where God dwells. Then there is the tent. Then there are the rams' skins dyed red and the badgers' skins.

Ques. The boards are made to stand up; what about the bars?

J.T. I think that is still Romans 7 and 8, in fact it is the whole of the first part of Romans. In chapter 7 we see the believer who delights in the law. He is like Christ in that respect, and then it is said, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit", Romans 8:4. So that you are standing up in that way as having judged evil in the power of the Spirit. The sum of what is presented in the first part of Romans is taken up in chapter 12, where the saints

present their bodies a living sacrifice. I think the bars would suggest this line of things. Then there is one bar running through the midst.

Ques. Would that suggest Christ in you the hope of glory?

J.T. I think so.

A.W. So that it is not sufficient to stand up, there must be unity; sometimes we may be isolated.

J.T. That is important to notice. The boards are made so many in number, but it takes all of them to make known what God has in His mind. If I am independent, I am not available to the testimony.

Ques. Would you say that Saul was to be used in the testimony when he was told to arise and go into the city?

J.T. Yes, he had to go into the city; he had to humble himself. He had to be told what to do; it was necessary for him to learn from Ananias, for the Lord had told Ananias to "Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus", Acts 9:11. Ananias finds him and tells him, "Arise, and be baptised, and wash away thy sins", Acts 22:16. God was passing Saul through a humiliating process. In the first place, after being struck down by the light, he is blind for three days, then he is told by Ananias what to do, and this process culminated in his being let down in a basket. Meanwhile he went to Arabia, a place where there would not be anything to promote the flesh. It is a good word to young people.

A.F.M. After Saul was baptised, he was with the disciples certain days.

J.T. Yes, he is now different from what he was when he started out from Jerusalem.

Rem. Later it is said, "When Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples but they were all afraid of him", Acts 9:26.

J.T. Yes, it seems that the difficulty was with the brethren on that occasion. They had to be adjusted.

Rem. Say a little about Arabia.

J.T. It is a desert; there is nothing there for the flesh. Instead of going to Jerusalem. Saul went to a place where the flesh was brought to nothing.

Ques. Would that be like Moses going to the backside of the desert?

J.T. Yes, it is.

Ques. Do you think that the process Saul went through would suggest the cutting down of the board in order that it might be made to stand up?

J.T. Yes, this process enabled him to be fitted in.

Rem. There were sockets of silver under the boards, "Two sockets under one board for his two tenons". What does this refer to?

J.T. The tenons would suggest fellowship.

Rem. The lame man in the Acts held Peter and John; is there a suggestion of the tenons in that?

J.T. Yes. Peter gave him his right hand and "lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God", Acts 3:7, 8. I think that power is primarily presented in the case of this man; but the idea of the tenon may be seen in how he held Peter, and how he then knew how to balance himself; he never did that before.

Ques. How far does the gospel go in making a believer stand up?

J.T. Romans would show that. That epistle shows how the gospel is taught.

Ques. Does the gospel cut down the tree?

J.T. No doubt! What is said in Matthew is that the disciples were sent to all nations to make disciples of them. That is a remarkable thing to do; it is a big thing to make disciples. The Lord told His disciples, "All power has been given me in heaven and

in earth", Matthew 28:18. But before He told them this, He had sent a message telling them that they should see Him in Galilee. That was to test them, for it is a very long journey from Jerusalem to Galilee. What I believe is in view is that Jesus would test their strength, their endurance. Finally, when the disciples went to Galilee, He did not make much of them. Nothing is said of His breathing into them. That is to say; if I am to have part in the testimony, I must endure hardness. Now Jesus comes to them and says, "All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you", Matthew 28:18 - 20. This put them to the test.

Rem. This process would enable them to take up the testimony rightly.

J.T. Yes, if the testimony is to be taken up, strength is required. It is one thing to teach persons something but it is another thing to teach them how to observe it. This means that they had to learn how to observe it themselves, so as to show the nations.

A.F.M. The disciples underwent preparatory experiences before they came out in active service.

J.T. Yes! You may be asked to give an address and you may take up some books which you have to prepare the address, but that is not going to Galilee. Going to Galilee means that I have to go through things to get to the Lord. He has great things and one must go to Him in order to get them.

Rem. We saw in one of the gospels that there was a certain time when the disciples could not cast out the unclean spirit.

Rem. I suppose we commence service on the ground of redemption.

J.T. Yes, and you must go to the Lord; you must get on your knees about things. It is a matter of exercise.

C.N. I suppose that what is said, in connection with all power being given to Him in heaven and in earth, shows that nothing can be done apart from Him.

J.T. Yes, therefore the Lord adds, "And, lo, I am with you alway". The power is with Him, but you must go to Him.

Ques. Are you connecting the boards with service?

J.T. What I wanted to show is that the Lord, according to Matthew, would show us how the whole thought in relation to the boards and service is brought about. The disciples were not merely to make disciples of the nations, but also to teach them to observe all things; but this could only be done as the disciples themselves came under the influence of the Lord. What is true of the board would characterise them.

Rem. The apostle Paul could say to the Thessalonians, "Ye know what we were among you". Is that similar to what is presented in Matthew?

J.T. Yes, so that he said, "Ye became our imitators, and of the Lord", 1 Thessalonians 1:6.

Ques. What would the five bars suggest?

J.T. They were "five for the boards of the one side of the tabernacle, and five bars for the boards of the other side of the tabernacle, and five bars for the boards of the side of the tabernacle, for the two sides westward. And the middle bar in the midst of the boards shall reach from end to end", Exodus 26:26 - 28. It is difficult to locate the position of the middle bar. I think it refers to Christ; for it is said, "We, being many, are one body in Christ", Romans 12:5.

Rem. The other bars, the five bars, might represent local companies.

J.T. Yes, they might suggest a local idea, and then one general idea as represented in the middle

bar running through them. I would refer to Barnabas in this respect. You see in him the spirit of Christ in a universal way, for he took Paul into Jerusalem and introduced him to the brethren. And then he was sent down to Antioch. In this respect he formed a connection with what was at Jerusalem and Antioch. Barnabas was a good man, and full of the Holy Spirit.

A.F.M. It is like Ephesians 4:3, "Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit"?

J.T. Yes, I think so.

A.F.M. Would not that depend upon us all?

J.T. It is very instructive to see in these bars how the system was held together generally and locally.

Ques. Why are there no bars in the front of the tabernacle?

J.T. That was the entrance.

Rem. The bars were of acacia wood.

Ques. Does that set forth any characteristic features?

J.T. Yes. The ark was made of the same material. We come now to the brazen altar; we were dealing with the tabernacle in chapters 25 and 26. In those chapters we saw the inner structure. We come now to the court; but the brazen altar is mentioned first. It is a link with the system.

A.F.M. We have no laver here.

J.T. That is because it is not the question of approach. The laver is not spoken of in God coming out to us.

A.F.M. The first thing is the altar.

Ques. What is the difference between the altar and what is put upon it?

J.T. The altar refers to Christ in the sense of His moral power.

Ques. What about the dimensions?

J.T. They allude to His manhood. The Lord Jesus was crucified in weakness. So that the altar is "Five cubits long, and five cubits broad". It was a

square. I think it would allude to the Lord as coming here to suffer. It is not the divine thought so much as expressed in John's gospel, but the side of His humanity that is expressed in His being crucified in weakness. The five cubits suggest this. He was crucified in weakness and He lives by the power of God.

A.F.M. I suppose the three cubits would be seen in His living by the power of God.

J.T. Yes.

A.F.M. Help us in relation to the ark and the altar. They represent Christ personally.

J.T. So that you would look in the gospels for the Lord's sufferings. This answers to the brazen altar, not to what is put upon it. In the gospels, you see His moral power in enduring what is put upon Him.

Rem. In the gospels we see the Lord on the mount; but before He came down, God said, "This is my beloved Son: hear him". He was coming down to suffer. I suppose there would be a suggestion of the brazen altar.

J.T. Moses and Elias spoke to Him of His death which He should accomplish at Jerusalem. The Lord came down to suffer. The power of endurance was seen in His sufferings, meaning that power and dignity were inherent: "Our fathers ... cried unto thee, and were delivered", Psalm 22:4, 5. But the Lord Jesus was not delivered. In Leviticus 8:11, the altar is anointed seven times, "And he sprinkled thereof upon the altar seven times, and anointed the altar and all his vessels"; and in verse 15 we see the blood put upon it. All this refers to the power of endurance which was seen in the Lord.

Rem. I notice that two altars are spoken of in Exodus, the brazen altar and the golden altar; the golden altar is smaller.

J.T. The golden altar comes in after you have the priest. It has reference to man's approach to God. It has not particularly the idea of suffering, but more the idea of prayer, the way we approach God through Christ in prayer. This is seen in Revelation 8:3 where the angel has the golden censer. But here, in Exodus, it is God coming out, and He would call attention to Christ as enduring suffering. He endured the cross.

Rem. One of the gospels presents the Lord crying with a loud voice, "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice", Matthew 27:46. Is the brazen altar seen there?

J.T. I think that what the three cubits suggest is seen there. The power of life is there. The centurion said, "Truly this man was Son of God", Matthew 27:54. It was a testimony to His personal power in suffering.

A.F.M. Here was One capable of sustaining things in relation to God.

A.W. How do you account for the fire of the golden altar?

J.T. I think that it was taken from the brazen altar. I do not think it denotes sufferings but it is rather to bring out the incense.

Ques. How do you connect the spiritual sacrifice with the altar? How would it be set forth in Christ?

J.T. The Lord is the altar, and the sacrifice. He offered Himself without spot to God. No other man could be the altar and the sacrifice, as seen in the brazen altar.

Rem. The apostle Paul caught a glimpse of the brazen altar. He said that he was ready to be offered. Is there the thought of the brazen altar?

J.T. There may be a reflection of it.

A.W. The incense is valueless without the fire there is a connection between the two.

J.T. I think the connection would emphasise the full effect of the brazen altar. We are to apprehend what was in it for God.

A.F.M. It is through the brazen altar that a basis has been laid for our approach to God.

J.T. I think that the golden altar was God's way of bringing the thing to us that we might see what God finds in the death of Christ.

Ques. Does the frankincense come from the sufferings?

J.T. The golden altar shows where it comes from.

C.N. Do we draw near to the golden altar in virtue of the brazen?

J.T. Yes. That is so. The golden altar is the testimony to us; it is smaller than the brazen altar.

Ques. Is the fact that it is four-square an emphasis of its greatness?

J.T. Yes, I think we would understand that through the golden altar.

Rem. In Hebrews it is said of Jesus that He offered Himself without spot to God. I suppose that suggests the brazen altar.

J.T. Yes. It is on our account that the golden altar is presented, so that we may see how we approach God.

J.S. That is why the golden altar is not seen in this part of Exodus.

J.T. Yes, what we are considering refers to God Himself.

A.F.M. A special word is used in Leviticus to express 'burn'; the same word is used for 'incense'. It shows what the effect of the death of Christ was for God.

Rem. The fire was not to go out.

J.T. I think it means that the effect of the death of Christ remains. It is kept here by the Holy Spirit.

Rem. Speaking of the Lord, someone said, 'In Thee the Father rests'. The basis for rest has been laid in the death of Christ.

J.T. Yes, the brazen altar shows that.

Ques. Would you say that incense goes up to God as we come to the golden altar in the light of the death of Christ as we are considering it?

J.T. Yes, but this refers to what the Lord Himself is for God. God has the altar before Him all the time. The fire is always burning.

Ques. What does the brass stand for?

J.T. It is the metal that stands the test of the fire. It is not a question of the value of the metal, but of the power of enduring. The shittim wood is underneath.

Ques. Was this seen in Stephen?

J.T. There was a reflection of it, but no one can come up to the brazen altar as set forth in Christ Himself. It refers to the inherent power in Him, the power of life.

Ques. In chapter 27: 4, we see a grate made for the altar; what does that set forth?

J.T. I think it has an allusion to the fact that everything in relation to the death of Christ is preserved.

THE TABERNACLE SYSTEM (3)

Exodus 33:7 - 11; Exodus 40:1 - 38

J.T. In our meetings last month we dwelt on chapters 26 and 27. As our object is not to go into details but to show the setting, in relation to the tabernacle system, in the different books, it is not necessary to take up each chapter. The object is to see the tabernacle in its general bearing in Scripture, so that our readings in Exodus are to show just how it is presented in this book. Then we may see how it is presented in the book of Leviticus, and in Numbers, and probably in the New Testament; so that having considered the furniture and arrangement in chapters 25 to 27, we may go on to chapter 33 and see the principle of separation in connection with that which was once recognised by God, but which He does not now own. Therefore it is said, "And Moses took the tent, and pitched it outside the camp, far from the camp, and called it the Tent of meeting".

A.F.M. Is that a provisional order of things?

J.T. I think so.

A.F.M. It was not the actual tabernacle.

J.T. Probably it was Moses' own tent.

J.S. That shows how God can be with us.

J.T. Yes, when evil comes into that which God owns, it loses its privilege in relation to Him. Consequently, the ground of gathering is separation from evil.

J.S. Is that not important for our present day?

J.T. I think it will be helpful to dwell on this point, for it shows from the outset the relation of the tabernacle to the history of the testimony, and that the place of gathering was on the ground of separation from evil.

Ques. Would you connect this with what is said in Hebrews 13:13: "Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp"?

J.T. I think it has an allusion to that.

Ques. In the same chapter in Hebrews it is said, "Whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin"; how would you speak of the Lord's suffering for sin in that respect?

J.T. It refers to His suffering without the gate: "Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate".

A.W. Did I understand you to say that before the tabernacle was set up the camp was owned of God?

J.T. It was owned of God from the time the children of Israel came out of Egypt. The golden calf was subsequently set up. God said to Moses that He would consume Israel and make of Moses a great nation. But Moses besought God on account of them, and we see that God "repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people", Exodus 32:14. Now Moses took the tabernacle or tent and pitched it without the camp. He is in keeping with: "The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up" (Psalm 69:9), so that it is said: "Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lord's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him", Exodus 32:26. The Levites were to put on their swords and slay every man his brother; so that "there fell of the people that day about three thousand men". The glory of God was vindicated; then Moses pitched the tent outside the camp and called it the Tent of meeting, as if to remind us that God only goes on with us as we are separated from evil.

J.S. What light did Moses have to act on?

J.T. The light upon which Moses acted came from his knowledge of God as seen on the mount, from his

acquaintance with God. The knowledge of God is the secret of all actions that are pleasing to Him. Moses had no command to do this.

A.F.M. God, speaking to Moses from the burning bush, told him to take off his shoes. Moses was to have a sense of the holiness of God from his start.

J.T. Yes, that is so.

A.W. The camp exists today.

J.T. Yes, the epistle to the Hebrews contemplates the existence of it. There is an allusion to what we are considering in "Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp".

A.W. What is the camp?

J.T. The general profession of christianity. It refers to that in which the name of Christ is owned in a general way, that in which defilement is seen. There is no doubt that it refers to the whole system of things in connection with Judaism; but I suppose that it has an allusion to the general profession of christianity.

Ques. Is this similar to the great house in 2 Timothy 2?

A.W. It is necessary to see how the way of separation is presented to the individual here: they did not go out as a crowd.

J.T. We do not deal with evil collectively. God never calls upon His people to deal with evil in this manner. Moses said, "Who is on the Lord's side? let him come unto me". There must be individual exercise. We are to separate from evil, we are to leave it.

A.F.M. Does the camp suggest a military idea?

J.T. In the book of Numbers it is seen in that character. The military order is not established in Exodus.

A.F.M. I was wondering if the reference to Hebrews, "Let us go forth therefore unto him without

the camp", depended upon what Judaism had become.

J.T. That is right. There was a measure of outward order connected with the camp, but that did not save the people from evil. We need more than outward order.

Rem. You were saying that God's 'meeting place' was far from the camp.

J.T. Yes, in christendom there is a measure of outward order, but order in itself is not enough. The absence of Moses was the test for the children of Israel; "As for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him", Exodus 32:23. In a similar way, the absence of Christ is the test today. There is ignorance, to a large extent, as to where Christ is.

Rem. The order in the camp is arbitrary.

A.F.M. In contrast to that there is the tent of meeting.

J.T. Yes, that is so.

J.S. Did Satan get control of the camp in the absence of the mediator?

J.T. Yes, the absence of the mediator was the test for the children of Israel. Moses was only away for forty days, but there was the manifestation of such weakness, the influence of which even Aaron could not check. The light of the heavenly order of things was not in the camp.

D.R. Would you say that the same thing has happened today, and that it is more serious because the Holy Spirit is here and has been disregarded?

J.T. Yes, the light of the whole system has been among the people of God; and yet, as it were, "we wot not what is become of him", Exodus 32:23. The truth of Christ where He is has been neglected.

B.F. Would you say that it was probably such a scripture as this that led J.N.D. to leave system?

J.T. Yes, I think so, along with 2 Timothy and Hebrews. What is presented in Exodus 32 is not open apostasy, but it was called a feast: "And Aaron made proclamation and said, Tomorrow is a feast to the Lord", Exodus 32:5. It corresponds with what we have today. The name of the Lord is not openly abandoned, but those who profess have connected it with idolatry. It is very dangerous. If it were open apostasy, Aaron might not have gone with it.

D.R. How would you apply what is said about the Lord suffering without the gate, "Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp"?

J.T. It has reference to the position of Christ. Christians who loved Him were to go outside the Jewish system. Jesus suffered outside of it.

J.S. Satan was behind that system of things.

J.T. Yes, that is so.

Ques. Was the order of things in 1 Corinthians similar to this?

J.T. Yes, the apostle had to tell the Corinthians, "Ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils", 1 Corinthians 10:21. It is a serious question.

A.F.M. In this respect, the idea of the ashes was important. The body of the red heifer was burnt without the camp and what remained was the ashes. What is our place in relation to the ashes?

J.T. The ashes of the red heifer were gathered up and set in a clean place. The body of the red heifer was burnt without the camp. In this respect there is a testimony of the sacrificial value of the death of Christ. In Numbers 19 the ashes were used for cleansing in connection with the running water. God said to Adam, "Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return", Genesis 3:19. God said nothing about ashes. What was said referred to Adam as having sinned. But Abraham said, "I ... which am but dust and

ashes", Genesis 18:27. He had light as to the judgment of God; we can reckon on resurrection on that basis.

A.F.M. Do you think Job had some light of what you were saying when he said, "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God", @Job 19:25, 26?

J.T. I think so. The meaning of 'ashes', throughout, signifies that judgment has been faced for us vicariously, that we have been ended, so to speak, in Another. Therefore it is written, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him", 1 Thessalonians 4:14.

Ques. Do you think that christendom has a true sense of what we are saying?

J.T. There is little known of the Lord, in a true sense, among the great mass of christians. How many can speak with reality of the Lord undergoing the judgment of God in order that we may see that we have been completely ended, so to speak?

Ques. How many know Him as Leader of the praises in the assembly?

J.T. Ignorance in relation to the Lord's position as Leader of the praises in the assembly is the whole outcome of the clerical system. Men will have a leader whom they can see, a material and physical leader: "These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt", Exodus 32:4.

A.F.M. And yet, the moment that the tent is pitched outside the camp, God appears.

J.T. Yes, we can reckon on that.

D.R. Job said, "I know that my redeemer liveth", He was not thinking of anything of a material system.

J.T. He had light in relation to God.

D.R. Therefore, we should consider what is said in relation to us as christians: "We have an altar,

whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle", Hebrews 13:10.

J.T. Yes, the tabernacle was the old Jewish system on earth. It was no longer owned of God, therefore those who serve in it had no right to the altar of Christians.

D.R. In Ezekiel 37 we see a similar instance of what the ashes signify; the dry bones were given life again.

J.T. Yes. We have a nice example in connection with Abraham. In Genesis 18, Abraham recognises the judgment of God: "I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes". In chapter 22 he has an altar and Isaac is there. In chapter 23, he buys a burial place to bury Sarah. There is an allusion to resurrection.

J.S. Is order involved in the expression, "dust thou art"?

J.T. I think so: "The first man is of the earth, earthy", 1 Corinthians 15:47. I judge that the ashes came in in connection with the altar.

J.S. The ashes are an evidence of sacrifice.

J.T. Yes, so that in Leviticus and Numbers, the idea of the ashes suggests the death of Christ.

C.N. We see that the ashes were used as a means of cleansing.

A.F.M. It is according to God to provide a means of cleansing.

J.T. Yes, that is so.

D.R. Does the pillar of cloud seen here show that God had confirmed Moses in connection with what he did?

J.T. Yes, that is good to notice. God came down in the pillar of cloud: "And it came to pass when Moses entered into the tent, the pillar of cloud descended, and stood at the entrance of the tent and Jehovah talked with Moses. And all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the

tent ... . And Jehovah spoke with Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend". We see how God honours zeal for His glory when evil becomes prominent in profession.

A.F.M. Do you think the descent of the cloud was at periods?

J.T. No doubt! In the last chapter it was permanent.

A.F.M. I wonder if it has the same significance when it is a question of what is weekly in connection with us.

J.T. I think that the two things go on together, there is what is periodic and what is general. God is here, on earth, dwelling in the house by the Spirit; this continues. But then there is the idea of special visitations which God may be pleased to give. It is God in either case, whether dwelling in the house by the Spirit or appearing at various intervals. But we may also speak of a peculiar kind of visitation in connection with the Father and the Son. John contemplates this distinct presence and the privilege connected with it: "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him", John 14:23.

D.R. Is there a similar privilege today of God appearing to individuals as He did to Moses?

J.T. No one has Moses' place.

Ques. Could we not say that David had the privilege of God appearing in a similar way as He appeared to Moses?

J.T. No one was so distinguished in Scripture as Moses. This distinction is to bring out how God honours those who honour Him. Moses honoured God. Therefore a little later (Numbers 12:6 - 8), we see that God vindicated him: "If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

D.R. Here we see that God spoke to Moses face to face. Do you not think it establishes the principle that God would speak to others?

J.T. It is not brought in here to set forth that principle: "Mouth to mouth do I speak to him openly, and not in riddles; and the form of Jehovah doth he behold", Numbers 12:8. Here it is a question of how God honours Moses in the presence of the people.

J.S. Have we a similar instance of this in the life of the Lord on earth?

J.T. I think we have instances of this in the gospel of John and on the mount of transfiguration. In John 12 Jesus said, "Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again", John 12:28. There is a remarkable recognition of the Lord as here upon earth. We saw this at His baptism. Do you not think it was remarkable that heaven should answer Him so?

J.S. Yes. How would you bring in Bethany here? Heaven recognises Him, as you were saying, and there are those in Bethany who would recognise Him also.

J.T. In Mark 11:11 - 15, it is said, "And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked around about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve. And on the morrow ... they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple". He spent the night in Bethany and then in the morning. He came into the temple and cleansed

it. Then He taught and answered questions. There are three actions.

A.F.M. He cleansed it first.

J.T. Yes. Jesus looked round about upon all things and went out. Returning the next morning. He cleanses it. That is how things stand now.

A.F.M. How do you mean?

J.T. The Lord is walking in the assembly, then He deals with it judicially, but He also answers questions.

J.S. We can have our questions answered.

J.T. Yes, that is what is going on now.

A.F.M. Reference is made in Mark to the Lord spending the night in Bethany. I suppose it would call attention to how God values those who love Jesus.

A.W. Say something about Moses returning into the camp.

J.T. The returning of Moses to the camp would represent how the Lord may visit the professing body of christians, today. The addresses to the assemblies in Revelation show that He is walking in the midst of them.

Rem. So that those who came out to Moses were overcomers.

J.T. Those who sought the Lord. Some worshipped at a distance; but God wants us to worship near.

A.F.M. So we have to recognise that there are many of God's beloved people in the camp and that the Lord may return to it as we see in Revelation. He is there in a judicial character.

A.W. That is a solemn thing to consider.

J.T. We should be in the attitude of going forth to Him.

A.W. The Lord will soon lead one out from the camp if he is marked by the spirit of going forth to Him.

Ques. Would the man in John 9 be a type of a christian who comes out to the Lord? The Lord answered his questions.

J.T. It corresponds in some measure to what we were saying, but that is another side of the truth. It shows that, if you are in the camp and have the truth of Christ, you would not be wanted there.

Rem. The possession of the truth of Christ will lead us to separate from infidelity in the camp.

J.T. The question of fellowship becomes prominent. If the principle which underlies what is mentioned in the Lord's supper, "This do in remembrance of me", had been maintained by the children of Israel, they would have known where Moses was. As the Lord's supper is considered there is a response from every heart that loves Christ, but the next thing we have to consider is fellowship. It is the fellowship of His death, and it means that there is to be separation from evil as was seen in connection with the camp.

Rem. I do not understand what is said about the Lord being in the camp and answering questions, when we are told in Hebrews to go forth to Him without the camp.

J.T. It was said that the Lord was in the temple answering questions, and that He is in the midst of the assemblies in a judicial manner, according to Revelation. But where the temple condition of things is maintained, the Lord answers questions, so that the light which we have received during the last hundred years is on this line.

J.S. The judicial garb with which we see the Lord clothed in Revelation shows that He is there to judge evil.

J.T. Yes. He is presented to the assemblies in that character.

Rem. Speaking of the Lord's supper, Paul said, "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you", 1 Corinthians 11:23.

J.T. In Corinthians the Supper is brought in judicially: "Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?" 1 Corinthians 10:22. It means that the Lord has absolute power. He is like a dictator.

Ques. How is God expressed in connection with the temple order of things?

J.T. God is expressed not only in the way of love, but also in the way of light, so that everything is made plain when the temple condition of things subsists.

A.W. Let us refer now to Joshua.

J.T. Joshua represents a young man, not in authority, but having keenness of affections and interest in connection with the new departure. This is very valuable. He is apt to be very energetic and is liable to go to the extremity of being jealous, as Joshua was when it was a question of others prophesying in the camp. He would not have that, for he wanted Moses to forbid them.

Rem. Joshua needed experience.

J.T. Yes, his safe place was to be in the tabernacle. You can see what a remarkable young man he was in the tabernacle. He did not leave it. Joshua had a great amount of light in his soul and he loved the Lord and Moses. It is well that there should be young men like this in the tabernacle, for there is a certain amount of attractiveness in spiritual youthfulness.

Rem. Samuel presents a similar instance of this.

J.T. Yes.

B.F. Moses was not jealous.

J.T. No, but Joshua was, he was a partisan. Young men are safe in the tabernacle; but let them go into the camp and you will see that they are not equal to conditions there. Joshua said, "My lord Moses, forbid them". Forbid men speaking by the

Holy Spirit! Moses said, "Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets", Numbers 11:28, 29.

A.F.M. Joshua would represent a young brother who has taken his place in separation to the Lord's name. His place should be among the saints with a desire to learn how to do things.

J.T. Yes, the knowledge of God helps you to know what to do in a crisis. The man of God knows what to do when crises arise. He does what is according to God.

In the last chapter, we see what this book is intended to show us in relation to the tabernacle, for there is no repetition in Scripture. Certain things were done in connection with the tabernacle and formed a moral basis for God to be there in keeping with Himself, and for the tabernacle to be in keeping with Him.

J.S. Is it not remarkable that God comes in as soon as the tabernacle is set up?

J.T. Yes, and we see dignity in connection with the setting up of the tabernacle. Jehovah spoke to Moses and told him what to do and how everything should be arranged. God did not leave anything to Moses. Having done everything as he was told, Moses anoints the tabernacle with oil. It was holy. It was dignified, "And thou shalt take the anointing oil, and anoint the tabernacle, and all that is therein, and shalt hallow it, and all the vessels thereof; and it shall be holy". What we were dwelling on in chapter 33 was left to Moses; but when we come to the setting up of the tabernacle, God gives instructions about it, especially as to the anointing.

Ques. Is it because it is the dwelling place of God?

J.T. Yes.

Rem. We see in the gospels that after the Lord cleansed the temple. He preserved it.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. The Lord entered upon His service as anointed, and after He ascended the disciples began their service in the same manner through the Holy Spirit.

A.F.M. Is there an element of suffering in connection with the anointing?

J.T. I think we see the suffering spirit of Christ in connection with it. The disciples received the Holy Spirit from Him as the One who suffered: "Having therefore been exalted by the right hand of God, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which ye behold and hear", Acts 2:33.

J.S. Does the anointing, in connection with the tabernacle and the various things thereof, refer to the Spirit?

J.T. I think so; you have the anointing and then the cloud. The cloud is a symbol of the presence of God. As soon as the work was finished, it is said, "Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle".

A.W. How do you define the difference between the cloud and the glory?

J.T. The cloud may be spoken of as a symbol of the presence of God, while the glory would refer to the outshining of God.

A.F.M. The cloud was outside while the glory was inside.

J.T. Yes, the glory refers to God coming out in Christ, but we also have a sense of the presence of God through the Lord Jesus.

A.W. I wonder if the cloud has any reference to Christ at all.

J.T. On the mount of transfiguration there is presented the idea of the tabernacle. Peter said let us make three tabernacles; but the cloud comes in and a voice comes out of the cloud saying, "This is my beloved Son: hear him", as much as to say,

there are not to be three tabernacles, but one. The presence of God was there; but we have to distinguish between the presence of God and the symbol of it, for there is no cloud in connection with christianity; therefore, "when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone".

Ques. At the end of chapter 40 it is said, "For the cloud of the Lord was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night". What does the fire refer to?

J.T. I think the fire would allude to the judicial element, the means of judgment that was ever present.

Rem. The priest is not mentioned in this section.

J.T. Reference is made to the priest in chapter 28. Emphasis is laid on Aaron's relationship to Moses, "And thou shalt take thee Aaron thy brother". I think it means that the priesthood is taken up in Christ as King or Lord.

In chapter 40 we see not only the means of cleansing in the laver, but also the use of it: "And he set the laver between the tent of the congregation and the altar, and put water there, to wash withal. And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet thereat: When they went into the tent of the congregation, and when they came near unto the altar, they washed; as the Lord commanded Moses". We have an example in this, for there is not only the means of cleansing but also the use of the laver is necessary.

Rem. We should see that our hearts are "sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water", Hebrews 10:22.

THE TABERNACLE SYSTEM (4)

Leviticus 1:1, 2; Leviticus 8:1 - 12, 33 - 36

J.T. Most of us are aware that our subject is the tabernacle. We have been considering it in its various aspects in Exodus, and we desire tonight to see its bearing in the book of Leviticus. Probably what is to be carefully noted here is that the Lord called to Moses out of the tent of meeting: "And Jehovah called to Moses and spoke to him out of the tent of meeting". There is an indication of the assembly in type. The significance of the assembly is that it is composed of called-out persons. The end of Exodus showed us that the presence of God stood connected with the tabernacle; and what we see here is that Jehovah called to Moses from the place where He is, and from which He is speaking. I think the emphasis here is on the tabernacle.

A.F.M. It would suggest that there is an invitation to come in.

J.T. Yes, I think so. The word 'assembly' means called out. The assembly is formed of people who are called out. God spoke from the position in which His glory is secured and in which He is prepared to meet man, but He met man on His own terms. God seeks men; the seeking implies distance, but the answer to the call implies nearness. Therefore the idea of bringing becomes evident: "If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord".

B.F. How do you apply the thought of seeking in the book of Leviticus?

J.T. We have not the word 'seeking' so specified here as in the New Testament. But in Romans and Corinthians we see that 'calling' is spoken of. God calls people out of the world. The gospel goes out world-wide and the voice of God is in it; so that

men might come out of the world to meet with Him on His own terms. Therefore this book emphasises the 'tent of meeting'.

A.F.M. The idea of men meeting God on His own terms is what the 'tent of meeting' implies. Kindly enlarge on that thought.

J.T. There are two or three words used in connection with the tabernacle. The one which is used in this book is 'tent of meeting'. It means that God was in the tent and would meet men.

J.S. Has God taken up His abode in the tabernacle as we are considering it in Leviticus?

J.T. I think what we are considering here is based on Exodus. In Exodus we see that God gave instructions to make everything according to the pattern and that these instructions were carried out. And then the tabernacle and all that was therein was anointed, so that God comes into it to dwell.

J.S. In Exodus it is said, "And the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle", Exodus 40:34. Does that mean His presence?

J.T. Yes, it is the place where the glory of God is seen and not the glory of man; and what we see in Leviticus is that God calls from that place, saying, "If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord". God is not only there, but His glory has taken character.

A.W. Is not God's attitude a very great one here? He assumes that there are those who will come, and therefore He instructs as to how they should come. I think it is like John 4:23 where the Lord said, "The Father seeketh such to worship him".

J.T. Yes, the apostolic authority is in the call to Moses; but no one is commanded to bring an offering, it is, "If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord". As you said, God assumes that there are those who will come and He shows how they are to come. Light is given in relation to worship. God

had told Moses, "When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain", on mount Horeb (Exodus 3:12). And again, it was said to Pharaoh, "Let my son go, that he may serve me", Exodus 4:23. But what we are now contemplating is that worship is established, not on mount Horeb in connection with the burning bush, but in the tabernacle, and that sonship is connected with worship.

B.F. Would you say that Jehovah delighted in the praises of His people?

J.T. Yes, I think so. God had intimated to Moses that Israel should serve Him at mount Horeb after they came out of Egypt. In connection with the sojourn of the people, there was a period marked with special interest because of service at the mountain. But service has to be according to God's terms, as we see in the beginning of Leviticus. There may be much in the way of service, but the question arises as to whether such service is according to God.

Rem. The Lord's supper puts us to the same test as we see from 1 Corinthians.

J.T. Yes, and Hebrews shows that our consciences are purged to serve the living God.

A.F.M. We may say that this book was not properly named, when it was called 'Leviticus'; it may be called the book of the Priest, or of Praises. Priestly service comes first and it is connected with sonship. "Let my son go, that he may serve me".

J.T. Yes, the name of 'Leviticus' was given to this book by the Septuagint, but it was not a spiritual name. It is not the levitical book but the priestly book.

J.S. Do we have light governing our approach to God here?

J.T. Yes, and I think it is that we might see the place the tabernacle has. Of course, there are a great many other things to be taken account of, but I

think it is important to see the place the tabernacle has in connection with service. The tabernacle is set up according to all the requirements of God, then it is anointed and then the glory of God filled it. The next thing we see is that it is the 'tent of meeting', a provisional place where God meets with persons and finally, we see what it will be eternally; "to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages", Ephesians 3:21.

Rem. There is an answer now consequent on the Spirit being here as Acts 2 shows.

J.S. Yes, the tabernacle was set up in the beginning of Acts. The glory of God was seen; there was a response and service.

Rem. "They continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers", Acts 2:42.

J.T. Yes, service was of such a character that they continued in it.

A.F.M. In spite of the breakdown of Israel in the wilderness, the shekinah glory never left them! It enhances the grace of God in spite of what has come in at the present moment.

J.T. Therefore, Exodus becomes of importance to us; because in that book we see the requirements of God in relation to the tabernacle, the arrangement of all that is therein, the anointing with oil, and how it was filled with the glory of God.

W.B. Is there an element of command in Exodus? It would seem as if the call to the people to bring an offering was left to them: "Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering", Exodus 25:2.

J.T. I think that sonship is implied. Jehovah instructed Moses to say to Pharaoh, "Israel is my son, even my firstborn, and I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me", Exodus 4:22, 23. So

that the son would love to bring an offering, and we see that if he brought it, he brought it willingly.

W.B. It involves more than bringing; the willingness must be there.

J.T. I think that their intelligence would be based on the state of sonship being there.

W.B. In Leviticus 8 we come to the priest.

J.T. I think we shall see that we come to the gospels in type in Leviticus 8. The christian learns from the epistles of Paul about the tabernacle and sonship and his relation to Christ; and then he comes back as having arrived, "at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ", Ephesians 4:13. That, I think, is equivalent to Leviticus 8 where you get Christ in relation to the tabernacle. We see Christ in the gospels in relation to the mind of God. The earlier chapters in Leviticus, which deal with the offerings of the people, are to meet them and adjust them in regard to the different kinds of offerings. They are instructed how to approach God. Their spiritual instincts are taken account of, and then the law governing all that is committed to the priest; so that as all of that is dealt with and settled, the priest in his own personal rights is brought in in the eighth chapter. It corresponds to a believer receiving light through the epistles which adjusts him in his responsibility and his affections towards God, in order that he may be able to see Christ as He is presented in the gospels.

A.F.M. The epistles are very important; because in them we see how we are developed into spiritual manhood.

J.T. Yes, for we cannot understand the gospels until we arrive at "the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ". Having arrived there, you are able to understand Leviticus 8. It is a question of Christ's personal rights. Therefore we see

Aaron anointed without blood: "And Moses took the anointing oil, and anointed the tabernacle and all that was therein, and sanctified them. And he sprinkled thereof upon the altar seven times, and anointed the altar and all his vessels, both the laver and his foot, to sanctify them. And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron's head, and anointed him, to sanctify him".

A.F.M. Please open up that a little more.

J.T. No one understands the gospels until he understands something about sonship.

B.F. Is there a difference between the priestly side of things and that of the people? Do we have the two here in Leviticus 8?

J.T. The idea of the people and the priesthood is merged into one as we apprehend what it is to have arrived at the full-grown man. All the people are gathered together at the door of the tabernacle and all are interested in Aaron, the tabernacle, and Aaron's sons.

J.S. Are the epistles given us to prepare us for what is set forth in the gospels?

J.T. Yes, I think so. The epistles would probably correspond to the first seven chapters of Leviticus. In these chapters, there is light in connection with the death of Christ, that we may be free in our souls. The law of the offerings was committed to the priest. The law is there and is always valuable for adjustment. That being so, we are equal to the eighth chapter which corresponds to the gospels, for in them we see Christ in relation to the thoughts and purposes of God.

Rem. So that the light of the gospels has a universal bearing.

J.T. I think so. In them are set forth the thoughts and purposes of God, the plan of the tabernacle. What the anointing represents is also seen in them, for in the ministry of Christ all the

designs in relation to the tabernacle are seen. The anointing would convey the idea that the One, in whom are expressed the thoughts of God in relation to the tabernacle, had to suffer.

W.B. Would the first seven chapters of Leviticus set forth more the idea of the work of Christ, while the eighth sets Him forth personally?

J.T. That is what I thought.

W.B. If that is so, why does the first chapter open with the burnt-offerings? Does not the sin-offering come first in connection with our need?

J.T. We begin with the inverse order here; for when it is a question of the terms of God, Christ comes first. God is occupied with Him, so that the highest feature of His death is presented first. You will see this in connection with the gospel of John. But although we may begin with the highest side of the truth, we must come back to the sin-offering.

Rem. Therefore Peter says, "Desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby". Does this refer to the gospel?

J.T. I think the epistles enable us to grow up as Peter said, "desire earnestly the pure mental milk of the word, that by it ye may grow up to salvation, if indeed ye have tasted that the Lord is good". Then as you advance in your soul, you will understand what is meant by, "To whom coming, a living stone, cast away indeed as worthless by men, but with God chosen, precious, yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house", 1 Peter 2:2 - 5. This presents the idea of the tabernacle. Then what we see next is the holy priesthood and the offering up of spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Ques. Did you say that Aaron and his sons were anointed without blood?

J.T. Not the sons, but Aaron and the tabernacle. The first three gospels present Christ anointed by the Holy Spirit, in His own personal rights. Peter said

on the mount: "let us make three tabernacles". There are not three tabernacles, but one; and that is presented in Christ, so that the voice from heaven is, "This is my beloved Son; hear him". We see the thoughts of God expressed in Him and these thoughts are to be formed in the saints. Therefore, we see how the laver stood connected with the priests and how they washed. This refers to the ministry of Christ: "ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you", John 15:3. In John 13 we see a picture of the ministry of Christ.

A.F.M. So that as we were remarking, the apostle Paul ministers in relation to the tabernacle. What was in Christ personally is now seen in the saints. His death, blood-shedding and resurrection were the basis of all.

J.T. Yes. Aaron and his sons may be taken as a type to show the association of Christ with the saints. Blood is put on the tip of the right ear, and on the thumb of their right hand, and on the great toe of their right foot; and they are also sprinkled with oil. This latter part of Leviticus 8 presents Christ in relation to the saints, while the earlier part of the chapter presents Him in His own personal rights.

Rem. The Sanctifier and the sanctified are all of one.

J.T. This is seen in the priestly family. In the first chapter of Leviticus there was the idea of calling; but here it is, "Take Aaron and his sons".

J.S. What is the difference?

J.T. I think we see a difference between 'call' and 'take'. The latter is a question of power. The mind of God, in relation to Aaron and his sons, is expressed: "Take Aaron and his sons with him, and the garments, and the anointing oil, and a bullock for the sin-offering, and two rams, and a basket of unleavened bread". All these things are seen in

Christ becoming incarnate. There is no question of distance which the call would imply.

A.F.M. Everything is secured for God in Christ. The affections of men are secured. It is said, "Take Aaron and his sons".

J.T. Yes, the epistle to the Hebrews and the gospel of John show us what underlies this. The Word became flesh. One can now understand the burnt-offering coming first, Christ in relation to the will of God.

Ques. Was it not a command to Moses to take Aaron and his sons?

J.T. It is a command to Moses. But then, there is no 'if' in regard to Aaron and his sons. In the first chapter it is written, "If any man of you bring an offering", but when it is a question of Aaron and his sons, Moses is told to take them. They are all there.

A.W. Moses was also told to gather all the assembly together at the entrance of the tent of meeting.

J.T. Gather all the assembly together is another matter, but that does not apply to Aaron and his sons.

W.B. When the Lord was upon earth, do you think that Aaron and his sons were there representatively?

J.T. The section of John from chapter 13 to chapter 17, shows what was there.

Rem. The Lord said, "Take Aaron and his sons with him". I suppose this had its fulfilment in the Lord on earth.

J.T. I think so. You can understand, in connection with incarnation, that there is a Man here. He is there, so that God takes Him, "Take Aaron and his sons".

Rem. But in order for the saints to come in, Christ had to die.

J.T. Yes, He had to die. You see how the saints come in in the earlier chapters of Leviticus.

Rem. The blood is put on Aaron and his sons.

J.T. This comes in after; but before that Aaron is anointed and the altar and the tabernacle.

Ques. In connection with Jesus, would you say something about His dwelling on earth before His death?

J.T. The idea of the tabernacle was there in the Lord personally. But in order for us to come into the light of that we need the epistles. In them we see the wonderful things that came in by incarnation. The epistles build us up to understand what is said in John's gospel: "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory ... )". This is presented figuratively in Leviticus 8. There is a Man here who is delightful to God, so delightful that He can be anointed. The dwelling-place of God is also presented in Him: "For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily", Colossians 2:9.

B.F. Would you say that the Lord is seen first as the Ark? It says, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God" (Hebrews 10:9), and again, "thy law is within my heart", Psalm 40:8.

J.T. There is a representation of that in Leviticus 8.

J.S. Is there a living expression of the mind of God and the will of God in the Word becoming flesh and dwelling among us?

J.T. That is right. I think the anointing would show that.

A.F.M. The Lord's death is mentioned in John 12, and forms a basis for the company in chapter 13. But we are slow to take in these things. How long does it take us to understand the epistles, to be adjusted and be set apart to contemplate Christ! How little do we know of what it is to sit down and contemplate the glory of the only-begotten of the

Father, as John said: "We beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father", John 1:14.

J.T. That is the thing to see. Who can do that apart from one who is adjusted in relation to the truth in its various applications, so that he is set free for the service of God!

Rem. So that a right understanding of the wilderness side of things would set us free in relation to the will of God.

J.T. Yes.

W.B. It would require the knowledge of the assembly to contemplate His glory, the glory of the Son; for it is said, "we beheld his glory".

J.T. Yes.

Rem. We have to see how the truth in relation to understanding the wilderness side of things is set forth in Christ. In Him we see the intent of the gospel and how our need is relieved.

J.T. Yes, to understand the gospel we must consider the epistle to the Romans.

A.W. One has to present Christ to converts.

J.T. Yes, the apostle Paul said, "God, who ... called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me, that I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations", Galatians 1:15, 16. Therefore Paul begins in Romans from this height: "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God ... . Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead", Romans 1:1 - 4. But while this is so in the beginning, we have to go to the mercy-seat, the righteousness of God. Then you come again to sonship in Romans 8, but you arrive at it as a son so that you can understand what is meant by, "God sending his own Son", Romans 8:3.

You are beginning to realise what is set forth in the gospel. The apostle John says, "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth", John 1:14.

J.S. So that we should be able to preach the gospel better if we understand Romans in a greater measure.

J.T. Yes, I think it is only as you are acquainted with Romans that you can speak of what meets the sinner's need. The person who preaches the gospel better is one who understands Ephesians. Adjustment in relation to God does not only consist in my being delivered from judgment, but also in my being saved from place. I am not only delivered from the world, but also from the earth. This is the full end so that we have: "God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) and hath raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God", Ephesians 2:4 - 8. We do not get this in Romans but it is contained in the gospel.

J.S. It is the gospel of the glory.

Rem. We see humility in incarnation. It shows the sacrifice of God to bring in what is set forth in the gospel.

J.T. Yes, in John 1:1 it is written, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". In verse 14 we see, "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". Such a Person came into such limitations through love.

Rem. Do we arrive at this through the teaching of Ephesians?

J.T. Yes, you are great enough for it on account of the instructions set forth in Ephesians.

Rem. Is it arrived at in a collective way?

J.T. Yes, it is said, "we have contemplated his glory". We have an instance of what it is to contemplate the glory of the Son in Moses' turning aside, when he was keeping the flock of his father-in-law"The angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush; and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses", Exodus 3:2 - 4. It shows how interested God becomes in us when He sees that we turn aside to see what is set forth in the gospel, not only what is set forth in relation to the need of man, but what is peculiarly connected with the revelation of God Himself.

A.F.M. So that the first twelve verses of Leviticus 8 emphasise the position of Christ personally.

J.T. Yes, and the sons are there, "And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water". Nothing is said here, in the early part of the chapter, about blood. I think it refers to the purifying effect of the word, as we see from John 15:3.

B.F. Would you say that the water, as we see it in Scripture, would be the application of the death of Christ to the believer?

J.T. Yes, it would be in its full sense. But we are considering it now as it says in John 15, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you". Of course, there can be no cleansing apart from the death of Christ, but I think we have a picture here of the Lord as He is seen in the gospels and how the saints stand in relation with Him.

B.F. May we not look at it as the result of the presentation of the death of Christ to our souls by the Holy Spirit; on account of which, new affections are formed in us?

J.T. Yes. That is why what is set forth in Leviticus 8 comes after the offerings. The believer is able now to contemplate the Lord as He is seen in the gospels. While the earlier part of Leviticus 8 emphasises Aaron's position, the latter part shows how his sons are consecrated for the priesthood. It is a figure of how the disciples are brought into association with the Lord in priestly service. For this the blood is necessary. They were to remain at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation for seven days and seven nights.

Ques. Is that why we have, in Hebrews 10, the exhortation to draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water?

J.T. The reference to the earlier chapters of Leviticus shows how the believer draws near. I think Hebrews agrees with those chapters, for Hebrews does not take us as far as priesthood in the way that it is presented in Leviticus 8. The epistle presents priesthood in Christ and how saints can approach God consequent on Christ's position, but it does not present priesthood in the saints as we are dealing with it here. It is more elementary in Hebrews.

Ques. Has the altar in Hebrews a universal idea?

J.T. The altar as presented in Hebrews is exclusive: "We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle", Hebrews 13:10. The altar there deals more with exclusiveness, it does not take you inside.

Ques. Which one of the epistles gives us the priestly order as in Leviticus 8?

J.T. The epistles to the Colossians and the Ephesians. You begin with what is consistent with the priest in Romans 7:22 where you see, "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man". In chapter 8: 15 you have the Spirit; and as a consequence, you are marked with life and peace. Then it continues: "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father". There you see the son.

A.F.M. In Romans 12 you offer praises or spiritual sacrifices.

J.T. That is how priesthood is seen in Romans.

A.W. Why is the offering presented at the entrance of the tent of meeting? What is the force of that?

J.T. It is said, "If his offering be a burnt-offering of the herd, he shall present it a male without blemish: at the entrance of the tent of meeting shall he present it, for his acceptance before Jehovah". I think that the offerer merges in his offering into priesthood. The basis is set forth in the fragrance and virtue of the offering.

W.B. One does not go in alone.

J.T. He goes in with others. At the entrance his offering is accepted. It refers to his own acceptance. Our offering is Christ. In Him is set forth the right for us to enter.

J.S. We enter in virtue of His acceptance.

Ques. Why do you connect priesthood with relationship?

J.T. It is the son that is a priest. Aaron and his sons are referred to all the time.

Rem. You were saying that the son is seen in Romans 8, "Ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father". Would not this part of Romans agree with the latter part of Leviticus 8?

J.T. In a way, but what you get in Romans is the principle of the thing. You do not get sonship there in a concrete way. But when you come to Colossians, where the Spirit is only spoken of once, you will observe that what underlies is sonship. The Colossians were marked by love in the Spirit. They were not partial.

A.F.M. In Romans the apostle takes up the whole question in relation to the adjustment of the believer on the earth so that he may be free with respect to things here. And when we come to Corinthians, we see enlargement.

J.T. Yes. Romans and Corinthians run together. But Corinthians is corrective so that the apostle had to say, "We speak wisdom among them that are perfect", 1 Corinthians 2:6.

Rem. You were saying something about Colossians.

J.T. Colossians sets forth love in the Spirit. It is not preferential love. The Corinthians were marked by preferential love. As long as this state of things remains, we can never touch priesthood. Love, as seen in Colossians, suggests that you love all the saints and that you are not influenced by what is natural. Therefore the priests were not to wear woollen garments, or drink wine, or mourn for the dead. "They shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them ... neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court ... . And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves", Ezekiel 44:17 - 25. The Colossians were in the reality of this truth, there was love in the Spirit, and in Ephesians there is such an expansion to your love for the saints that you want them in heaven. Therefore the apostle writes: "And hath raised us up together, and made us to sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace

in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus", Ephesians 2:6, 7.

W.B. To love in such a way one must have the Spirit and be marked by love in the Spirit.

J.T. Yes, unless you have the Spirit, you cannot love thus.

THE TABERNACLE SYSTEM (5)

Numbers 1:1 - 5, 17 - 19; Numbers 10:11 - 13, 33 - 36

J.T. Numbers is important because it contemplates the saints in the wilderness, and it brings out typically the interest of God in us. God is interested in us in that He is content to be with us in the vicissitudes, whatever they be. I think that one feature of Numbers is that the love of God is seen in that He is willing to be with us in all the various experiences in the wilderness journey. God said to David, "I have not dwelt in an house since the day that I brought up Israel unto this day; but have gone from tent to tent, and from one tabernacle to another", 1 Chronicles 17:5. Here we see how God was content to dwell in a tent. His love led Him to do that for the sake of the people. This is touching to consider. For this reason Numbers is important since the book shows how God was pleased to travel with the people in love, going from tent to tent, and to be with them in all the vicissitudes of the wilderness journey to the end.

A.F.M. When you speak of God dwelling in love among the people, are you thinking in any way of the covenant at Sinai?

J.T. I think that the covenant underlies dwelling; love has to be known. The disposition of God towards us makes room for Him to dwell. This is taught in the epistle to the Romans. There we see the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. The love of God is known in our hearts. Then we are able to say, "All things work together for good to them that love God", Romans 8:28. The book of Numbers shows this. Those who love God understand that everything works together for good, so that it will be observed that the book opens with the wilderness. It is not as in Leviticus 1 where God calls out

of the tabernacle, "And the Lord called unto Moses; and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation". We find in Numbers 1 that emphasis is on the wilderness, "And the Lord spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of the congregation". Numbers makes a point of the place where the people were, in the wilderness. It is a question of the position of the people.

A.W. When you speak of vicissitudes, what have you in your mind?

J.T. I am thinking of the troubles we encounter both in relation to the testimony and in our life here. Every one pitches according to the standard of his father's house, according to his local place. From the age of twenty years old, each man is taken account of in relation to his father's house, to his tribe, and to his group of tribes; and finally, he is in relation to the whole system.

A.W. I think it is interesting to see how we are connected with the testimony.

J.T. Yes, the epistle to the Romans shows how interesting it is. In Romans we see how we are brought in relation with God and what is our privilege: "We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God ... knowing that tribulation worketh patience; and patience, experience; and experience, hope", Romans 5:2 - 4. All of this comes in Numbers. We are able to consider the journey of Israel from the outset until they reach the land of Canaan and to see that the love of God enters into everything.

A.F.M. It is said that Moses wrote down all their goings out. Everything is marked down until they came into the land, so that their journey would include what was individual and what was collective.

J.T. I think so. You notice that they were to take the sum of all according to their father's house, with the number of their names, every male by their

polls, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war in Israel. I think that every one is taken account of.

B.F. Would you say that Numbers gives us the history of the people in the wilderness?

J.T. Just so; Exodus is from God's side. In Exodus there is the representation of God dwelling, and Leviticus is on that line; therefore God calls out of the tabernacle in connection with the worship of His people. Leviticus sets forth the priestly side, but Numbers deals with what is public, the saints being taken account of on the basis of their responsibility. The males are numbered from twenty years old and upward and set in relation to the testimony in a military way; a little later we see the service of the Levites.

J.S. I suppose the important point here is that of training.

J.T. Yes, a saint sees that he is taken up of God, but he is not to remain a unit by himself. He is taken account of with all those who are able to go forth in military service. He knows where his standard is, his father's house, his tribe, and group of tribes; so that when the blast of the silver trumpet is sounded, he knows how to move. Numbers seems to set forth what is individual.

A.F.M. Is not the unit of chapter 1 brought in relation to others when it is a question of the protection of the testimony?

J.T. Yes, each knows the position to which he is assigned so that when the trumpet sounds he knows how to move. They were to move first from the east and then from the south. Unless the believer understood these things, he would not know what to do. The trumpet was made of silver, meaning that the Lord has a right to us.

Ques. Would the blowing of the silver trumpet suggest what may be done by the Spirit?

J.T. Yes, it indicates what may be attacked in any given ministry of the Spirit. The tribes were divided into four groups, indicating a four-fold character of the truth. Any point may be attacked: it may be the Person of Christ, or the truth of the assembly, or the revelation of God. The sound of the trumpet indicates where the attack is.

Rem. The book of Numbers contains very much instruction in connection with the Levite.

J.T. Yes, you begin as a member of a tribe, ready for warfare; and then you merge into what is levitical. It is a question of the standard from which you are taken account of.

J.S. Does the merging involve spiritual growth?

J.T. The Levites were numbered from a month old and upward. I think that refers to nature more than development. You belong to the family of the first-born.

Rem. And you are able to appreciate the love of God.

J.T. Yes, the christian knows that God loves him and that the love of God is shed abroad in his heart by the Holy Spirit. He loves God; and therefore he knows that all things work together for good. He merges into what is levitical and is now prepared to serve in love; for no one can serve according to God except by love. The epistle to the Romans prepares us for levitical service. Chapter 8 shows that we cry, "Abba, Father", the Levites' cry. The Levites were taken in place of the first-born. I think it shows how a believer is adjusted in relation to his responsible position, as confessing the Lord Jesus as Lord, and in relation to the place he has as belonging to the heavenly family. Hence he cries, Abba, Father. He is a month old.

A.F.M. Our prayers to God would be characterised by what we know of Him.

J.T. Yes, the believer knows that he belongs to the heavenly family. The Levites were given to Aaron and his sons. In a similar manner, we see how the saints are associated with Christ: "If we suffer, we shall also reign". The moment you are prepared to be here for Christ and the saints in a levitical way, your importance as a military man is not so prominent.

A.F.M. Say a little more on the Levites being given to Aaron and his sons.

J.T. I think emphasis is laid on the priestly family.

J.S. Is that because movement is seen here in Numbers?

J.T. Yes, we have the public service of the Levites.

A.F.M. So that the Levites and Aaron's sons are specially connected with the tabernacle, bearing the various parts, taking them down and setting them up.

J.T. Yes, we see movement from place to place.

J.S. They were to take the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel. Everybody seems to be included.

J.T. They are numbered from twenty years and upward. It has an allusion to those who confess the Lord. When we come to levitical service, there is reduction. It shows that the levitical element is small, that there is quality instead of quantity.

J.S. The experiences which come up in the wilderness bring in reduction.

J.T. Yes, we see the principle of reduction in Saul. We read of "Saul, who also is Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit", Acts 13:9. The name Paul suggests quality, not quantity.

J.S. We see how this principle is worked out in Acts 13.

J.T. Yes. Paul is the last mentioned in the list there.

Rem. Discipline was to make Saul small.

J.T. Yes, before the tabernacle moves. The passover is introduced in Numbers 9 before the tabernacle moves. The position of the tabernacle was related to the cloud and the children of Israel did not move until the cloud moved. But the passover comes in before movement and alludes to reduction.

J.S. Gideon's army was reduced from thirty-two thousand to three hundred. The element of reduction is seen there.

J.T. Yes.

A.F.M. Korah and his company were not in the good of what the passover sets forth. They were marked by inflation.

J.T. Yes, they were marked by the spirit of going up. They wanted the priesthood.

B.F. Do you see the principle of reduction in Saul of Tarsus? He was born in Tarsus, a city of Cilicia, and brought up in Jerusalem at the feet of Gamaliel and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers; but a little later, he was let down through the wall.

J.T. Yes; he was let down in a basket.

A.W. How do you explain reduction in the Acts?

J.T. I think the same principle obtains in Acts as we see here in the scriptures before us. In connection with the first great result of the gospel, it is said, "and there were added in that day about three thousand souls". What is said there is important and should be noted: it is not said that they were added to anything or that the Lord had added them. The three thousand were added. But in the end of the chapter, where we see the assembly in the reciprocity of unity and affections, it says, "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be

saved", Acts 2:46, 47. What we see emphasised here is that the Lord added such as should be saved.

Rem. Barnabas was more spiritual in the beginning than at the end.

J.T. Yes, but that is not normal. The principle of shining brighter and brighter should mark us as individuals.

A.F.M. The three thousand of which you spoke in the Acts were genuine. But would you say that what is said about the Lord adding daily such as should be saved would be the result of the power in the assembly, in the way of gift?

J.T. It is said in Acts 2:41, "Those then who had accepted his word were baptised; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls". This shows that the quality was good but a further evidence of it remained to be shown; you may have a lot of people converted, but declension may soon be manifested in connection with them; we have seen it. But what is said of the company in Acts is that "they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers", Acts 2:42. The Holy Spirit shows us that they were genuine. But when it says that the Lord added, He is acting from His own side. It is not such as were saved, but such as should be saved.

Ques. Do you think that there was a more spiritual condition of things at Antioch than at the beginning?

J.T. I think a more universal condition was seen at Antioch, but I should not like to say that anything was greater than which was seen in Acts 2.

Ques. What is the difference between levitical and priestly service?

J.T. I think that the book of Numbers brings it out. Priestly service is seen in Leviticus. The priests were consecrated in chapter 8; then they spent seven days and seven nights and kept the

charge of the Lord: "And ye shall not go out of the door of the tabernacle of the congregation in seven days, until the days of your consecration be at an end ... . Therefore shall ye abide at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation day and night seven days, and keep the charge of the Lord", Leviticus 8:33, 35. That chapter stands out peculiarly in its priestly function of keeping the charge of the Lord. During this whole dispensation we have access to God, and therefore we know His mind and maintain things until the end. There is no position higher than this. Now, in Numbers there is a similar position. The Levites are given to the priests; so that in our levitical position we minister to the priestly. The Levites had to carry heavy things. We can imagine how difficult it must have been for these Levites bearing heavy burdens under the heat of the mid-day sun in those eastern regions! The priests took down the holy things and covered them, not the Levites.

A.W. Is it correct to say that levitical service is manward, and priestly Godward?

J.T. Not quite; if you serve as a Levite, you may have to defend the Person of Christ. This may cause you much anxiety for it is a great thing to bear or maintain the truth in this respect. Certain features of levitical service merge into priestly service. Hence those who were doing levitical work when the ark was borne in Jordan were called priests.

J.S. It shows how they developed spiritually the nearer they approached Canaan.

A.F.M. When the Levite became fifty years old, his levitical work ceased.

Rem. Must one be a son to be a priest?

J.T. Yes, sonship underlies priesthood. The sons of Aaron were priests.

A.F.M. In connection with the assembly, the priest carries out the function of the levite and the common person.

J.T. Yes; this is evident in Numbers, so that the wilderness is mentioned first: "Jehovah spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai in the tent of meeting", while in Leviticus nothing is said about the wilderness. God calls to Moses out of the tent of meeting.

B.F. In Numbers 19, the red heifer comes before us. Why is it not presented before?

J.T. The red heifer comes in late, because it is a question of being distinct. It refers to Christ, for He said: "I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth", John 17:19. The Lord desires to set us apart entirely from what is natural, so that the complete judgment of the flesh comes before us in chapter 19. It comes in when you are ready for it.

A.F.M. That marks a complete change which is seen in the brazen serpent.

J.T. Yes, we see now that God is dealing with the source of things. The brazen serpent suggests that sin did not originate in man but in Satan; and that it is to be dealt with at its source. In a similar manner, John presents the love of God from its source in chapter 3; and the springing well comes in in chapter 4.

W.B. What is suggested in the words: "And Moses and Aaron took these men which are expressed by their names"?

J.T. Do you not think it shows what is important in connection with our position? The reference to those expressed by their names would suggest that they were persons of weight on account of their spirituality; it would also convey what each man was: "And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers". If a man has influence

among christians, it must be on account of what he is spiritually. The saints look for it.

A.F.M. Chapter 7 shows how this idea of influence among christians is worked out.

J.T. Yes, it is a beautiful setting forth of what the princes were. They were able to declare their pedigree. They represent persons who have the Holy Spirit, and in whom there is a spiritual formation, so that each prince has his day. God took account of them individually.

Rem. A prince has to be a nazarite.

J.T. Yes, I think you see in a nazarite what one who is in separation can do. In the book of Judges we see how failure marks the children of Israel, and how the situation is maintained by the nazarite. The truth of the nazarite is fully expressed in Jesus; but relatively, it refers to what may be true of anyone in a day of departure.

A.F.M. The truth of the nazarite was primarily secured in Jesus.

J.T. Yes, but, relatively, the reality of the nazarite may be seen in anyone who is in separation.

B.F. It is like John 17.

J.T. Yes, we see how the Lord sanctified Himself that the disciples might be sanctified.

A.F.M. We may say something about chapter 10. In the first part of chapter 8, the Levites are presented to the Lord, and then they are given to Aaron and his sons. In chapter 9, the passover is introduced, conveying the idea of reduction and smallness. It is said: "Jeshurun waxed fat and kicked"; keeping the passover saves us from this.

B.F. Is not the passover brought in as a precaution against evil?

J.T. Yes, so that one has to keep it although he may be on a journey. This was shown to Moses when he made special inquiry.

Rem. The apostle Paul introduced the passover to the Corinthians as a means of delivering them from evil.

J.T. Yes, the Corinthians were not keeping the passover; as a result they were marked by pride. Reduction is effected when we consider: "For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth", 1 Corinthians 5:7, 8.

Rem. I thought that the main point of our reading was the tabernacle.

J.T. Yes, we are dealing with the tabernacle. We have been considering how God spoke to Moses in the wilderness out of the tabernacle; and how the children of Israel were set in relation to it.

J.S. Two things are mentioned here, movement and encampment.

J.T. Yes, I intended to remark further in relation to what is written in chapter 9: "And on the day that the tabernacle was set up, the cloud covered the tabernacle of the tent of testimony". The word 'testimony' is prominent here: it is not so much the tent of meeting, but the tent of testimony. It is a question of what is set out: "On the day that the tabernacle was set up, the cloud covered the tabernacle of the tent of testimony; and at even it was upon the tabernacle as the appearance of fire, until the morning. So it was continually", Numbers 9:15. We may compare this with Acts 2. It continues: "And when the cloud rose from the tent, then the children of Israel journeyed". We may compare this to chapters 9 and 10 of Acts. After the death of Stephen there is a movement which continues when Paul comes in. It is further stated: "And at the place where the cloud stood still, there the children of Israel encamped", Numbers 9:17. We may compare this with Antioch. What do you say about it?

A.F.M. Would there be a continuation of movement when Paul and Barnabas were sent out from Antioch?

J.T. It seems as though the cloud was resting at Antioch for the moment because Paul and Barnabas returned there. Therefore, after they returned, the line of things which Acts 15 presents comes before us so that all the brethren might be brought into accord with this new position. The brethren in Jerusalem came into accord with the work of God in Antioch and among the gentiles.

Rem. The saints were first called christians at Antioch; why is that?

J.T. It shows how Christ was seen there. The epistles to the Colossians and Ephesians emphasise Him in this character. The Lord was no longer in relation to the Jews as He was before the death of Stephen.

A.W. Do you think that there is any new movement today like what we are speaking of?

J.T. I do not think so. What we see today is recovery; but Numbers does not contemplate recovery. It is the normal movement of the testimony. There is nothing new brought out in recovery, although a particular feature of the truth may be emphasised and we may have to regulate ourselves to it.

J.S. Acts 15 shows that Jerusalem had to become adjusted to the new position of things in Antioch and among the gentiles; and the chapter also shows that Antioch had to recognise Jerusalem.

J.T. Yes, in the epistle to the Galatians, we see the exercise of the apostle Paul that the work of God should be according to the cloud, so that he was very careful to go to Jerusalem and see Peter. It shows that brethren who are influential should be on good terms with each other.

A.F.M. Can you trace any other movement like that at Antioch?

J.T. I think that another movement is seen in Ephesus. It is the place from which the word of God went out to all Asia.

A.F.M. The apostle Paul found twelve believers at Ephesus.

J.T. Yes; the work of God seemed to reach its culmination at Ephesus. It was there that Paul disputed daily in the school of one Tyrannus: "And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks. And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul ... . So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed", Acts 19:10, 11, 20. After this Paul went through other places exhorting, and on his return he calls the elders of Ephesus; and, having said many things to them, he says, "For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God", Acts 20:27.

A.W. Paul passes through Corinth on his way to Ephesus.

J.T. Yes, you will notice that you do not get the evangelist at Corinth; this gift is not mentioned among those which are spoken of in Corinthians. Things were not normal there. But in the epistle to the Ephesians the evangelist is mentioned.

A.F.M. It is said that the Corinthians came behind in no gift.

J.T. Yes, but that is not the point. It is a question of what the Holy Spirit mentions. The gifts in Corinthians have reference to what is objective.

Ques. Does the cloud indicate that heaven is the centre?

J.T. I think the cloud is a symbol of the presence of God. It is seen in the Spirit, so that it is written in Acts 13"The Holy Spirit said, Separate me now

Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them". God dwells here by the Spirit.

Rem. So that Antioch and Ephesus would each be a base from which the work of God was carried on.

J.T. Yes, and in the epistle to the Ephesians, the gifts are spoken of. All the counsel of God was declared at Ephesus, as the apostle Paul said. There we see the truth in relation to the assembly and the house of God. There is nothing new after this, so that Paul warns the Ephesians of what would happen after his departure.

B.F. What do you think about the tribes moving together?

J.T. I think that there may be two suggestions in the movement of the tribes. In the first place, there has to be the recognition of the various localities with which we may be connected. Then there may be an allusion to the particular way the Lord may be presented to us at any given time. With respect to locality, it is said: "Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house", Numbers 2:2. Judah pitches on the east side towards the rising of the sun, then the tribes of Issachar and Zebulun pitch next to him. These tribes move first from the east. Their movement may represent the Lord coming in as the Sun of righteousness. The next movement is from the south: this may be the presentation of the Lord in connection with peculiar blessings. The last movement is from the north: this may allude to the Lord appearing in view of discipline.

A.W. Do you think that the idea of locality is literal?

J.T. Yes, reference is made to the assemblies in Judaea and Macedonia. Going on to Numbers 10, we see that, "They departed from the mount of the Lord three days' journey: and the ark of the covenant

of the Lord went before them in the three days' journey, to search out a resting place for them".

Ques. What is suggested in the three days' journey and the connection of the ark with it?

J.T. In Acts 9 we see how the authority of the Lord is emphasised. I think that you are impressed with the authority of the Lord when the cloud moves. In Acts 9, Saul was doing things against the disciples and we saw how the Lord came in at that point.

A.F.M. What is specially connected with the ark going before them in the three days' journey?

J.T. We were saying that: "They departed from the mount of the Lord three days' journey: and the ark of the covenant of the Lord went before them in the three days' journey to search out a resting place for them. And the cloud of the Lord was upon them by day, when they went out of the camp". The ark going before them in the three days' journey calls attention to the love of God in Christ. It is the ark of the covenant. If there is to be any movement, the Lord goes before us; for in every movement there is fresh opposition.

A.F.M. Would the ark going before be a special thing in view of their start?

J.T. Yes, otherwise what could we do if the Lord did not go before? It is very touching to see how He goes before us to search out a resting place where we have not passed heretofore.

J.S. Would it refer to the Lord's death?

J.T. I believe so, but we learn the reality of it gradually.

J.S. We have the ark and the cloud here.

A.W. It is said, "And it came to pass when the ark set forward, that Moses said, Rise up, Lord, and let thine enemies be scattered; and let them that hate thee flee before thee. And when it rested, he said, Return, O Lord, unto the many thousands of

Israel". The going forward of the ark creates emotion in Moses.

J.T. I think it refers to the experience we acquire in a normal way in connection with the Lord rising and scattering. It seems as though the enemy makes a start to hinder God's people every Lord's day, but through experience we can say, "Rise up, Lord, and let thine enemies be scattered".

A.F.M. It is said of the ark: "And when it rested, he said, Return, O Lord, unto the many thousands of Israel". Do you think that in the 'resting' there is what we might find in the assembly?

J.T. Yes, "Return, O Lord, unto the many thousands" would allude to the company. I suppose you see how this is effected in chapter 20 of John's gospel. The Lord had said, "If therefore ye seek me, let these go their way". In His resurrection the enemy is scattered and in chapter 20 the Lord returns.

THE TABERNACLE SYSTEM (6)

Numbers 11:16, 17, 24 - 29; Numbers 12:4 - 10

J.T. I think we observed in our last meeting, that Numbers sets forth the love of God seen in His journeying with us in our wilderness circumstances; so wherever the children of Israel went, God went with them. In Numbers 10 we see that as they were about to move the ark went before them. According to primary arrangements, the ark should be in the centre. Such a position is due to Christ, as He said in John 13:13: "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am". Yet, He who has this position among them washes their feet. The Lord takes a lowly place to serve them; that is to say, love is not limited to its own arrangements. The love of God is sovereign, so that whilst the Lord has a place of honour among His people, He takes a lowly place to serve them. The ark went before the children of Israel to seek out a resting place for them; it bore the dangers, as it were, contingent upon seeking out a resting place in a way where they had not passed before.

A.F.M. I suppose that the love of God would characterise the journey when the ark takes the lead.

J.T. It seems so; in the history of the church the love of Christ is seen in this way. He takes the lowest place to serve for the sake of the well-being of the saints. Even the great apostle Paul said, "ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake" (2 Corinthians 4:5), and again, "all things are for your sakes", 2 Corinthians 4:15.

A.F.M. So that the ark takes the lead right on in love, even through the Jordan.

J.T. I think that an understanding of Numbers 10 enables us to see the bearing of these chapters which follow. In that chapter we see how the love of God

meets oppression arising from the enemy, and how it settles other questions in relation to the calling together of the assembly, and finally we see how the love of God is connected with the ark going before. Now we come to chapter 11, where Moses feels the burden too heavy for him. This question is to be adjusted at the tent of meeting, so that it is written "And Jehovah said to Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and their officers; and take them to the tent of meeting, and they shall stand there with thee. And I will come down and talk with thee there; and I will take of the Spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, and thou shalt not bear it alone". That was to be done before the tent of meeting.

A.F.M. I suppose this would show how the type fails, yet there was no lack of power for the Spirit is put upon seventy; but with the Lord Himself there was every capability to undertake the burden and carry us through.

J.T. Quite.

Ques. Why are seventy taken?

J.T. It is an allusion to the principle of responsibility taken up by those who are qualified. They were elders of the people and officers over them.

Ques. Would it refer to those who have a genuine care for the people of God?

J.T. Yes. "Whom thou knowest to be the elders". They would be known to Moses as men who were already qualified.

B.F. How would you apply this today?

J.T. I suppose that the same principle applies today. Persons who are fit for the service of God are those who are already qualified by experience.

W.B. Was there a similar principle in connection with Stephen and Philip?

J.T. Yes, when murmuring arose among the disciples, the apostles said, "Look out therefore, brethren, from among yourselves seven men, well reported of, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we will establish over this business", Acts 6:3. Stephen and Philip are soon distinguished in connection with the testimony. They were men of good report and full of the Holy Spirit. What we are considering in the book of Numbers shows that God had not miscalculated the position, although Moses might have thought so; for there is no addition to the power already there: "I will take of the Spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them".

Ques. Was there not an expansion of the power?

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Is that the way God meets failure?

J.T. Yes, and in doing so, God shows that He has not miscalculated. If it were said to Moses, "Carry them in thy bosom, as the nursing-father beareth the suckling", there was power for it; for it was really God who was doing it.

Rem. These seventy men were in the school of God.

J.T. Yes, and it is important to see that God has never miscalculated or underrated. He knows what is needed and gives it when the position calls for it. Therefore, if the vessels are increased, it is a question whether those who are already in the service can make room for the added vessels. Moses has a beautiful spirit with respect to those who were added.

A.F.M. But you do not think that Moses failed to rise to the dignity of his position as having received the Spirit in such a wonderful way?

J.T. Probably he did not realise the extent of the power.

A.F.M. In regard to making room, we find in the gospels that seventy disciples are sent forth, but their position did not conflict with the work of the

twelve. We should desire to see amongst us expansion in the way of ministry.

J.T. I think that is an important thing. Joshua, being a young man, was disposed to be a partisan. There were two men who did not go out to Moses in the tabernacle, but remained in the camp; nevertheless the Holy Spirit came upon them: they were of them that were written. They were selected by God and they prophesied in the camp; but Joshua wished Moses to forbid them.

Ques. How would you apply the position of the seventy today?

J.T. I think that what we are to learn is, that God has made provision for His people, and if those who are serving are not equal to the service. God meets the failure, not with an addition of power, but by adding more vessels. The power that came down at Pentecost is the same.

B.F. You would not say that Eldad and Medad represent those who are not walking in the truth. It is possible that there are some true ones in system whom God may use.

J.T. For some reason these men did not go to the tent of meeting; they should have gone. But they were among them that were written, and the Spirit came upon them so that they prophesied.

A.F.M. I suppose we see the sovereignty of God in connection with these two men.

J.T. Yes, but they are not to be excused for not going to the tent of meeting. They missed what was said to Moses: "And Jehovah came down in a cloud, and spoke to him". We do not want to miss anything that occurs at the tent of meeting. These two men represent persons who have relations with God; the name Eldad has some significance of friendship, and Medad refers to love. But although that is true, yet there is a tendency to neglect going to the tent of meeting and on account of that we miss very much.

A.F.M. We have to learn that prominence is connected with the tent of meeting.

J.T. Yes, and we cannot absent ourselves from the tent of meeting with impunity, for we miss very much. There were certain occasions for gathering the people at the tent of meeting and such assemblings are not to be regarded lightly.

Ques. Were the people gathered at the tent of meeting in view of adjustment?

J.T. The Lord gives His presence at the tent of meeting and whatever is to be dealt with is solved. It is not a question of right or wrong doctrine so much, but the presence of the Lord that settles any difficulty.

A.F.M. We always need the presence of the Lord whether it is a question of adjustment, privilege, or discipline.

J.T. Yes, hence in a case of discipline, you rely upon the presence of the Lord. His presence solves the matter as we see here: "And I will come down and talk with thee there". We see also that "Jehovah came down in a cloud, and spoke to him (Moses), and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and put it upon the seventy men". It was God's action. Who could question that?

A.F.M. The result is that they prophesied, even the two men in the camp did the same. It was a mark of God's sovereign choice.

H.S.D. Although these two men did not go to the tent of meeting, yet they received the Spirit.

J.T. There are many who have the Spirit and minister, but do not know what it is to go to the tent of meeting; we should not like to restrict all real ministry to those who have the light of the assembly. Some persons have gift, yet they remain in the camp.

Rem. In one of the gospels we read of one who was casting out demons, but was not among the disciples.

J.T. We are thankful for ministry, but to miss the Lord coming down to the tent of meeting is a great loss. One loses colour for he cannot take on the heavenly character and learn to do things rightly if he misses these occasions.

B.F. Is there any connection between the way that Jehovah comes down to the tent of meeting and what we read in John 14:18, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you"? Do you think that discipline is connected with that passage in John?

J.T. The subject we are considering in Numbers deals chiefly with discipline. While you may also connect it with John 14, I think that I would connect this section of the scripture with chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation. In those chapters we see the Lord walking among the candlesticks. His presence settles whatever issue there may be; for we may make a thing very clear and yet we may not settle it. But if the Lord comes in it is settled.

A.F.M. Would it be like 1 Corinthians 5:4, where the apostle Paul said, "when ye are gathered together, and my spirit"?

J.T. Yes, and Paul added, "with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan".

W.B. When the Lord comes in, I suppose the matter is ratified in heaven.

J.T. Yes, and it is written: "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them", Matthew 18:20.

Rem. Moses said on a certain occasion, "If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence", Exodus 33:15.

Rem. The two disciples who were going to Emmaus were not adjusted until the Lord manifested Himself to them.

J.T. Yes, that is right.

Rem. That scripture which says, "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together" (Hebrews 10:25), may be connected with what we are considering in Numbers.

J.T. Those who forsake the assemblings do not see the visitations when the Lord comes in, for it is the assembling of ourselves together that gives the occasion for Him to come. The assembling may be looked at as the tent of meeting.

W.B. In other places we see that Jehovah speaks from off the mercy-seat, but here He comes down to the tent of meeting; what is the difference?

J.T. In another instance when adjustment was needed, we saw that "Moses took the tent, and pitched it outside the camp, far from the camp, and called it the Tent of meeting", Exodus 33:7. In a similar manner 1 Corinthians 5 contemplates the idea that sin is to be dealt with. The brother who is guilty of anything that is evil has to be shunned: "with such an one no not to eat". Fellowship is an important subject, therefore we have to be clear from what is evil. I think that is why the tent of meeting is emphasised at certain times.

W.B. And what we are considering is adjustment in relation to service.

J.T. Yes; the next thing we have to notice is the position that Miriam and Aaron assume in connection with Moses. They spoke against him. That was a sorrowful thing, for we were just considering how Moses was feeling the weight of things; but now he is also despised by those who are near him: "And Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married", Numbers 12:1.

A.F.M. Miriam takes the lead in speaking against him because of his marriage.

J.T. The marriage was only the occasion, for they could have spoken of it without going further, not that they would have been justified, but they said, "Has Jehovah indeed spoken only to Moses? Has he not spoken also to us?" I suppose the Ethiopian woman was a type of the church and what we see here may be taken as Jewish opposition.

H.S.D. Do you think that the opposition arose from jealousy?

J.T. It appears so. The opposition comes in after the seventy are selected, after there was an extension of power. Miriam and Aaron did not say that God spoke to the seventy. They say, "has he not spoken also to us?" I suppose we may speak of Miriam and Aaron as those among the Jews who could not endure the testimony going out among the gentiles. Hence Miriam became leprous, "and the people did not journey till Miriam was received in again", Numbers 12:15. It alludes to the fact that Israel does not move now.

B.F. I suppose the truth is that the gentiles are brought into blessing and occupy the place that Israel once had and that the saints are now in a closer intimacy than Israel.

J.T. Yes, the wife was nearer than Miriam. You will observe that this question is also settled at the tent of meeting: "Then Jehovah spoke suddenly to Moses, and to Aaron, and to Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tent of meeting".

B.F. Would this refer to the assembly in function today?

J.T. I think so, actual discipline occurs when we are gathered together.

Rem. Moses did not defend himself against the accusations of Miriam and Aaron.

J.T. We see how the character of Moses shines out in this instance, "But the man Moses was very meek, above all men that were upon the face of the earth". It seems as though God would emphasise the dignity of Moses, for He said to Miriam and Aaron, "Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I Jehovah will make myself known to him in a vision, I will speak to him in a dream. Not so my servant Moses; he is faithful in all my house. Mouth to mouth do I speak to him openly, and not in riddles; and the form of Jehovah doth he behold". From this we learn how to reckon on God when we are attacked, however serious the attack may be.

Ques. Does the word "suddenly" in the fourth verse suggest the seriousness of the case?

J.T. Yes, it shows that God would settle it at once.

A.F.M. I suppose that the greatness of Moses would be seen in his meekness. Would it be right to say that, as being the meekest man, he was the greatest?

J.T. The word 'man' seems to be emphasised here. It is not the official character of Moses but what he was in his relation to everybody.

A.F.M. This case shows us how adjustment puts us in our respective places before God when anything is settled from heaven; Miriam was put outside the camp and Aaron beseeches Moses on her account. They are all adjusted.

Rem. Speaking reverently, I think it is an honour if God should bear testimony on behalf of His servant, as in the case of Moses.

J.T. It makes you very restful, if anything happens like this. If it is a personal matter or an attack, you should rest on God; for if He approves of you. He will see that no one will do you harm.

Ques. How does God indicate His approval of His servants today?

J.T. I think that God would make it clear that He is with them. God may appear by means of ministry on their behalf. The approval would be manifested in our meetings, just as these various issues were settled at the tent of meeting.

Rem. Miriam must have been the leader; nothing happens to Aaron.

J.T. Evidently, she must have been the leader. It does not appear that Aaron was ever a leader in such matters.

Rem. This instance shows us how solemn it is to attack anyone whom the Lord is using.

J.T. Yes, and it is well to observe by whom Moses is attacked here. He is attacked by those who were near to him, by those whom God is using, for Miriam is called a prophetess. The danger is to assume that you are as great as others, whereas the Lord will never allow His arrangements to be interfered with. Paul said, "Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion", 2 Timothy 4:17. God would let no one put Paul aside. Although Miriam was a prophetess and God might have spoken through her, she was not as great as Moses.

Rem. It seems that Aaron was easily influenced.

J.T. Yes, he was a man of affections; but it is not enough to be swayed by affections. We should be on our guard against being easily influenced.

Rem. The making of the golden calf shows that Aaron was not firm.

J.T. Yes, he did not mean to be a leader in idolatry, but he went with it.

B.F. What is suggested in Miriam being made leprous?

J.T. I think it suggests the state in Israel; you could not apply it to an individual. I think Miriam represents a state more than a person.

A.F.M. It is will.

J.T. In a subjective way, so that she was shut out of the camp seven days and the people did not journey.

A.F.M. In a similar manner, if there is a condition like this among us, we do not receive much help and real ministry until the thing is healed.

J.T. Yes, not even until the man was restored was there much movement at Corinth. If discipline or restoration is to be executed, we cannot go on until it occurs.

Rem. The first letter to the Corinthians was more on the line of adjustment, while the second presented ministry of a different character.

J.T. Yes, they could move on; the man was ready for recovery.

Rem. So that, in our local meetings, if we are able to recover one, the Lord takes account of that and helps us.

J.T. Yes, I think so.

Ques. Do you not think that we have a tendency to be indifferent in connection with restoration?

J.T. There may be such a tendency yet there are those who are not indifferent. In the case before us, all seemed to be concerned, "And the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in again", Numbers 12:15.

THE TABERNACLE SYSTEM (7)

Numbers 14:10; Numbers 16:16 - 19; Numbers 17:6 - 13

J.T. From the last scripture we read, we see the effect of the dealings of God upon the children of Israel. They said, "Behold, we die, we perish, we all perish. Whosoever cometh any thing near unto the tabernacle of the Lord shall die". Of course this was not really so, for God had appointed a way to approach. We approach in "the new and living way", hence we do not die although we approach. The effect of the presence of God among the children of Israel produced fear in them, as it is said in a certain place, "God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints", Psalm 89:7.

A.F.M. The actions of the people caused God to come in in discipline. The effect of the discipline caused them to fear.

J.T. It is a right thing that they should fear God. Although it was not really the fact that every one who approached the tabernacle died, yet there was the sense that God was there.

A.F.M. It is better than the spirit of rebellion.

J.T. Yes, the epistles to the Hebrews and Corinthians, and the first epistle of Peter agree with the teaching of these chapters in Numbers. Judgment begins at the house of God. The glory appears in chapter 14 when there is the spirit of rebellion "And the whole assembly said that they should be stoned with stones. And the glory of Jehovah appeared in the tent of meeting to all the children of Israel".

Ques. Why did you not read chapter 13?

J.T. I think chapter 14 continues the subject of chapter 13. It is a question of rebellion. The heavenly testimony was rejected. In chapter 14 the

people wished to make a captain and return to Egypt. They were turning away from heavenly testimony to what was worldly. The rebellion of Miriam and Aaron was very bad, but the idea of choosing a captain and returning to Egypt was worse. It is a characteristic of christendom.

Rem. Unbelief and rebellion generally go together.

J.T. Yes, that is true.

Rem. The refusal of the heavenly testimony changes everything in relation to the people. "Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in".

J.T. Yes, that alludes to the judgment in the wilderness.

Ques. How do you apply this today?

J.T. It alludes to the rejection of the truth and the acceptance of false doctrine: "For indeed we have had glad tidings presented to us, even as they also; but the word of the report did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard", Hebrews 4:2. It is the glad tidings of the land which is emphasised more than the glad tidings of our deliverance from the world. The epistle to the Hebrews teaches the gospel of our salvation -- the great salvation which is deliverance out of the world; but there is also"the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ", Ephesians 3:8. This is what Hebrews 4 alludes to, "For indeed we have had glad tidings presented to us, even as they also". It was the glad tidings of the land, but they rejected it. In connection with the assembly, Paul said, "Thou knowest this, that all who are in Asia ... have turned away from me", 2 Timothy 1:15. Paul was identical with the ministry; in turning away from him, they turned away from the heavenly position.

Even Ephesus, where the heavenly position was presented in a peculiar way, was included in the retrogression.

W.B. All the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron.

A.F.M. It proves the incapability of the flesh to cherish heavenly things. But after the brazen serpent comes in, there is real progress.

J.T. Yes, these chapters present, typically, the course of things in the history of the church right down to the end. In chapter 18 there is a revival of the priests' functions and the Levites' place.

A.F.M. The unity of the Levites with the priests.

J.T. Yes, the Levites were given to the priests, they were under the priests. In chapter 16 the Levites aspired to the priests' position, because they were Levites, that is to say, because I am a minister of the gospel I may assume to be a priest; whereas the levitical position depends upon my being a priest. The priest should come first. The rebellion of Korah and his company would suggest what has taken place in the history of the church, there has been rebellion in connection with the position of Christ as Lord and Priest. But recovery has come in, so that there is a reassertion of the truth in relation to Christ as Priest. Numbers 18 presents this in figure. If we are Levites, we are subordinated to the saints. We are not to rule over them because ministry is given to us.

A.F.M. At the end of chapter 18 we see how the priests and Levites are regarded by God: "Thus ye also shall offer Jehovah's heave-offering of all your tithes, which ye take of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof Jehovah's heave-offering to Aaron the priest ... . When ye heave the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted unto the Levites" (verses 28, 30).

J.T. Yes, the priests are maintained in order to keep the charge of the Lord. In recovery there is a

reassertion of the priesthood and authority of Christ.

Ques. Is gift connected with the priest?

J.T. Priesthood belongs to all the saints.

A.F.M. I recently saw a remark that even a young brother, when he starts to pray, is a priest.

J.T. Yes, everyone who has the Spirit is a priest.

Ques. Is a sister a priest?

J.T. If she has the Spirit of God she is a priest. That is an important matter. What a service sisters can render in prayer, for this is a great function of priests! If sisters prayed and read the word more in view of these meetings, we should have better meetings when we come together.

Rem. Prayer is not confined to the prayer meeting.

Rem. You can hardly find a believer who does not pray.

J.T. That may be so, but the question is how much do we pray. It was said of Paul, "behold, he prayeth". That is what marks believers normally, the continuous attitude of prayer.

A.F.M. I suppose that it does not simply mean that the believer who is praying is praying about himself, but about Christ's interest on earth.

J.T. That is what comes out in chapter 18. The word is directly to Aaron; it is purely a priestly matter: "Thou and thy sons and thy father's house with thee shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary; and thou and thy sons with thee shall bear the iniquity of your priesthood. And thy brethren also, the tribe of Levi, the tribe of thy father, bring near with thee, that they may unite with thee, and minister unto thee". You see the Levites now with the priest, but they minister to the priest.

J.S. What is the meaning of the expressions "the iniquity of the sanctuary", and "the iniquity of your priesthood"?

J.T. It means that the priest is responsible for whatever happens; when we say the priest, the

expression takes in both brothers and sisters who have the Spirit.

Rem. Does it mean that he carries it in his spirit?

J.T. He carries it before God. In Ezekiel it is said, "Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that are done in the midst thereof", Ezekiel 9:4. Returning to chapters 13 and 14, we see the people in rebellion against Moses. They wish to choose a captain and return to Egypt. To meet this state of affairs it is said, "And the glory of Jehovah appeared in the tent of meeting to all the children of Israel". It suggests that God will come in in some way, where His people are in the recognition of what the assembly represents, and make His glory felt in connection with any uprising which may be existing.

Rem. The people were deliberate in their action of rebellion.

J.T. It was the state of the people's heart. No doubt Miriam represented their state morally, a state of pride and rivalry against Christ.

Rem. The report of the spies was the occasion for the action of the people in chapter 14.

J.T. Ten of the spies brought back an evil report, but Joshua and Caleb brought back a good report. They represent a remnant, a link between Israel in responsibility and Israel according to purpose.

Rem. Joshua and Caleb were sympathetic with God.

J.T. Caleb represents the spiritual position as in Christ and how the saints enter into it. "But my servant Caleb, because he hath another spirit in him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he came; and his seed shall possess it", Numbers 14:24. What is said as to "another spirit" refers to another order of being. Joshua is spoken of in the same way in connection with leadership,

"a man in whom is the Spirit", Numbers 27:18.

Rem. We see how Caleb takes heaven in type, in the book of Joshua.

J.T. Yes, and he gave his daughter to Othniel, who took the 'city of the book' (Joshua 15:16 - 19); he overthrew the world of literature; it takes a man of spiritual power to do that.

A.F.M. I suppose that we have to understand the truth which stands connected with the brazen serpent to appreciate the characteristics set out in Caleb.

J.T. I think Caleb is a link between responsible Israel and the Israel of purpose, "because he hath another spirit in him".

Rem. That spirit which would appreciate the land.

W.B. The whole assembly said that Joshua and Caleb should be stoned with stones.

J.T. It is the attitude of the flesh, not only opposition but also persecution. Hence the glory of Jehovah immediately appears in the tent of meeting.

J.S. Is the appearing of the glory of God seen today?

J.T. I think so, the recovery of the truth of the assembly has given God an opportunity to manifest His glory.

J.S. It shows how important the truth is.

J.T. We saw in the previous meeting that "Jehovah came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood at the entrance of the tent", Numbers 12:5. But it is not said that He comes down in chapter 14; it says, "And the glory of Jehovah appeared in the tent of meeting to all the children of Israel". Here it is the shining out of the glory of God.

Rem. God's glory shines out now in the assembly.

A.F.M. I suppose you would say that the glory of God shines out in sanctified vessels.

J.T. Yes, but it is in relation to the whole assembly.

A.F.M. In connection with recovery, the shining out of the glory of God becomes evident because evil has to be displaced.

J.T. Yes, we see that in chapter 14.

W.B. The glory is in sympathy with Joshua and Caleb.

J.T. Yes, and chapter 15 shows what Joshua and Caleb came into: "When ye come into the land of your dwellings, which I give unto you". In the land everything was to be adjusted from the standpoint of God's glory.

W.B. You emphasise the glory of God in connection with actions in the tent of meeting.

J.T. Yes, hence if we are in the light of the assembly, there should be great concern among us "set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry".

B.F. If a company of saints are going on in the power of the Spirit, would you say that there is a manifestation of the glory of God there?

J.T. Yes, it is evident.

Rem. Joshua and Caleb said, "If Jehovah delight in us, he will bring us into this land", Numbers 14:8. They had confidence in God's power.

J.T. Yes, they knew that God could bring them in. It is further said of Caleb: "But my servant Caleb, because he hath another spirit in him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he came" (verse 24). He represents a new order and there is a world of glory opened up to him in chapter 15, so that he can be here in reproach. Caleb was not even feeble in his old age: "and now behold, I am this day eighty-five years old. I am still this day strong, as in the day that Moses sent me: as my strength was then, even so is my strength now, for war, both to go out and to come in", Joshua 14:10, 11.

A.F.M. Why do you speak of chapter 15 in that way?

J.T. It is written in another place that the earth shall be filled with the glory of God. In Numbers 15 we see that provisions are made in connection with the glory of God: "When ye come into the land of your dwellings, which I give unto you" speaks of the accomplishment of God's purpose, and of there being a heavenly position. They were to wear fringes in the borders of their garments. Caleb would understand this.

A.F.M. Is it not a fact that Caleb had gone in already and was now in the reality of what he had seen?

J.T. So that he is a man out of heaven, as it were.

B.F. Would you say that the lives of Paul and John would have the same effect with us as the lives of Caleb and Joshua should have had on the children of Israel?

J.T. Paul's ministry was the ministry of a man out of heaven. He had been taken up into the third heaven.

Rem. Hence he expressed a heavenly character among the saints.

Rem. In Numbers 15 provision is made in connection with the burnt-offering. Does it refer to Christ in a particular way?

J.T. It speaks of the devotedness of the children of Israel to the will of God. This is effected by means of the burnt-offering; otherwise there would be the tendency to assume holiness in the flesh. In Numbers 13 and 14 we see that the whole assembly of Israel were willing to give up the heavenly position and return to the worldly. In chapter 16 we see certain prominent persons, men of renown, rising up against Moses. They said, "It is enough; for all the assembly, all of them are holy, and Jehovah is among them". It is an assertion of holiness in the

flesh; this is current among the various systems of today.

A.F.M. They assume relationship which does not exist.

J.T. It was a serious matter for Israel. Their proposal to go back to Egypt was met by means of the tent of meeting (chapter 14). But in chapter 16, the rebellion is settled by means of a test. It is to be shown whom God will accept; hence they were to take censers. When Moses heard these leaders, men of renown, he fell upon his face; he could not meet the situation.

Rem. You said that Moses could not meet the situation, but he seems to say very much here.

J.T. It is a question of God coming in in a new way. Old precedents were not taken, so that we have to be prepared for any new methods which God may bring in.

Rem. Say a little more about the new way which God uses here in connection with the rebellion of Korah and his company.

J.T. What we notice in chapter 16 is that God Himself deals with the rebellion directly: "The earth opened her mouth and swallowed them up". It was not Moses' act but God's. He made a new way in answer to Moses' request.

Rem. Moses was spoken of as the meekest man of all the earth; but we do not see much of that here.

J.T. When it is a question of meeting evil, the righteous is as bold as a lion. In connection with Moses being the meekest man, he was spoken of as the man Moses. That may suggest what he was in his house and among men in a certain character; but when there is need to contend for the truth, one has to be as bold as a lion. This is set forth in the Lord Himself. How meek he was! Yet when He had to do with the Pharisees. He did not hesitate to

pronounce woe upon them. He did not mince matters.

-.R. Moses addresses himself to Korah.

J.T. That shows that Korah was the responsible person.

Ques. Was there an element of grace in the words "Even tomorrow will Jehovah make known who is his", Numbers 16:5?

J.T. Yes, they were given time to retract.

W.B. The question of approach to God was the point at issue here.

J.T. Korah and his company were claiming the priesthood. But Moses said, as it were, we will see whom God will choose. The thing is put to the test; and as a result, Korah and his company were consumed.

A.F.M. Hence it is a question of God's decision which we must look for.

J.T. Yes, God has His way to show approval or disapproval.

J.S. Is there anything today in connection with the earth opening her mouth in judgment on these men?

J.T. I think the judgment of the beast and false prophet in Revelation would answer to it: "Alive were both cast into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone". Judgment is pronounced on them, at least one thousand years before others are judged; they are judged even before Satan himself.

W.B. In Numbers 16, the matter was brought to the tent of meeting.

J.T. Yes, it shows how important a place the tent of meeting has.

H.S.D. It is the greatest court of appeal.

J.T. Hence it is said the Lord is greatly to be feared in the assembly of His saints. The judgment of Korah and his company and also of the beast and false prophet should show us what solemnity is connected with God's presence among His people.

A.F.M. There is really a comparison between the two instances. In Numbers Korah and his company gathered themselves against Moses and Aaron. Moses represented authority; and Aaron priesthood. In a similar manner, the beast and false prophet rise up against the authority and priestly position of Christ. But they are immediately punished when the Lord appears, as is seen in Revelation 19.

J.T. Yes, that is right.

A.F.M. What do you think about the judgment of Babylon?

J.T. Babylon is a system which is dealt with on earth, "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire", Revelation 18:8. It is a system which is dealt with on earth, while the lake of fire is for individuals.

Ques. What is the force of "Separate yourselves from the midst of this assembly, and I will consume them in a moment"?

J.T. It appears that the whole assembly would have been destroyed except for the intercession of Moses and Aaron: "And they fell on their faces and said. O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh! shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with the whole assembly?" God listened to them, and on account of that the guilty persons perished, but the assembly was saved.

Ques. Would that passage show that "evil communications corrupt good manners"? The assembly was told to separate themselves from those guilty persons.

Ques. Does verse 24, to which reference was just made, show that we are to deal with evil?

J.T. That verse shows us that we are to separate ourselves from evil. God Himself deals with it.

Ques. Is this the attitude we should take in connection with christendom?

J.T. Yes, I think this chapter shows that separation is the proper course to follow in relation to evil in our day.

Rem. It corresponds with the second epistle to Timothy.

J.T. We see breakdown in Numbers 16, in type. Hence there is a reassertion of the priesthood in connection with it. God shows what life is connected with in chapter 17, for where there is recovery everything depends upon the Spirit of God.

A.F.M. I suppose Aaron's rod would show that the priesthood is based on resurrection.

J.T. Yes, but in this aspect Christ is known in the assembly, for the lie went abroad that He was stolen from the tomb.

B.F. The Lord was seen only by His own after His resurrection.

J.T. The great point to be observed in the Lord's resurrection is that there is the power of life. Aaron's rod bloomed blossoms, showing an evidence of the power of life. Paul made a point of the fact that the Son of God was preached and that in Him there was no uncertainty: "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, he who has been preached by us among you (by me and Silvanus and Timotheus), did not become yea and nay, but yea is in him. For whatever promises of God there are, in him is the yea, and in him the amen", 2 Corinthians 1:19, 20. This is seen in Christ risen, in the Son of God.

W.B. Say a little on the staying of the plague "And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed" (verse 48).

J.T. The staying of the plague suggests the mercy of God, expressed on account of the intercession of Aaron.

A.F.M. We see what the priest represents in Aaron. God comes in in blessing where a priestly

condition is maintained among the saints; is that not so?

J.T. Yes, and I think that Moses' act would suggest love in some measure: "And Moses said to Aaron, Take the censer, and put fire thereon from off the altar, and lay on incense, and carry it quickly to the assembly, and make atonement for them". We do not want judgment to come in.

Rem. In that way you are in accord with the heart and mind of God.

J.T. Yes, hence you present that in which God can rest, that which is consistent with Himself revealed in righteousness.

Ques. From what altar was the fire taken?

J.T. It was the brazen altar. All fire came from there; any other fire is strange fire.

Ques. What is the difference between the tent of meeting and the tent of testimony?

J.T. The tent of meeting is where God meets with us, and the tent of testimony suggests that God sets out what is in His mind. This is seen in Numbers 17; and 2 Timothy is also on this line: "Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus".

A.F.M. Aaron's staff was put before the testimony: "And Jehovah said to Moses, Bring Aaron's staff again before the testimony, to be kept as a token for the sons of rebellion".

Rem. There was the evidence of life in Aaron's staff. It brought forth buds, and bloomed blossoms, and yielded almonds.

J.T. Yes, and there is a normal development in connection with the rod. The bud comes first. It shows that God would have us to develop in a normal manner. We may gather up the truth from books, but in doing so we have taken a short cut. The idea is to begin with the bud. We see this order in Luke's gospel. The Babe is first presented, then the Boy,

and then the full grown Man; and heaven opens upon Him at the age of thirty years.

Aaron's rod was kept as a token: "that thou mayest put an end to their murmurings before me, that they may not die". I suppose that there is nothing greater in the whole universe than a man alive spiritually, one who has grown up normally. Paul said that he took Titus to Jerusalem. Titus was a gentile convert, a product of Paul's ministry; and, although there were those who were ready to spy out their liberty in Christ, what could they do about Titus? He was there in life, an evidence of Christ reproduced in the saints.

Rem. Paul told the Corinthians that they were the product of his ministry.

J.T. A reproduction of the life of Christ in the saints is what withstands opposition and rebellion; as Paul said, "Now in the same manner in which Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, thus these also withstand the truth ... . But they shall not advance farther, for their folly shall be completely manifest to all", 2 Timothy 3:8, 9.

Ques. Would you look for this state in all the saints?

J.T. Yes. John's writings have this in view.

THE TABERNACLE SYSTEM (8)

Deuteronomy 31:14, 15; Joshua 18:1 - 7; 2 Chronicles 5:2 - 5

J.T. These passages may serve to indicate the teaching in connection with the tent of meeting in these books. What we noticed in Exodus was that God was pleased to dwell among His people, and in Leviticus we saw that the people approached Him as dwelling thus among them. Numbers shows how God journeyed with His people through the wilderness as He said to David, "I have not dwelt in an house since the day that I brought up Israel to this day; but have gone from tent to tent", 1 Chronicles 17:5. This shows the love of God in journeying with His people and entering into all the circumstances of the wilderness, so that, as they began to move, the ark went before to seek out a resting place for them, a type of the Lord Jesus going before us in love.

We also saw that all matters of difficulty arising in opposition to the truth were met by God coming down to the door of the tent of meeting. These are important features for us to consider. We can reckon on God intervening in difficulties and settling whatever might arise. In Deuteronomy very little is said about the tabernacle; yet it is recognised as being there. Although there is not much said about the tabernacle after Numbers 21, it is mentioned in Deuteronomy 31 in connection with the change of leadership from Moses to Joshua.

A.F.M. Would you mention the other places in Deuteronomy where the tabernacle or ark comes into view? Moses was told to put the testimony into the ark (Exodus 25:16).

J.T. In Deuteronomy 31:26. Moses commanded the Levites, "Take this book of the law, and put it

in the side of the ark". We will observe that, in the change of leadership, the song which Moses composed is taught to the people, and the book of the law is put into the ark.

Ques. The tabernacle is spoken of in Numbers as the tent of testimony but it is called the tent of meeting here. What is the difference?

J.T. The idea in the tent of the testimony is that God sets out what is in His mind. He had said, "thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee", Exodus 25:16. The testimony was placed in the ark and the ark was in the tent. This is one reason why the tent is called the tent of testimony in Numbers.

Rem. Say a little more on the allusion to the tent of meeting in Deuteronomy and to the tent of meeting in Numbers.

J.T. The tent of testimony suggests that God sets out what is in His mind. In Numbers 17:4 we see how God indicated His mind in relation to the priesthood when there was assumption on the part of others. Referring to the staves of the princes. Jehovah said, "thou shalt lay them up in the tent of meeting before the testimony, where I meet with you. And it shall come to pass, that the man whom I shall choose, his staff shall bud forth". Then in verse 7 it says, "And Moses laid the staves before Jehovah in the tent of the testimony. And it came to pass ... behold, the staff of Aaron for the house of Levi had budded". God showed that He had chosen Aaron. The first reference to the tent of meeting is in Exodus 33"And Moses took the tent, and pitched it outside the camp ... and called it the Tent of meeting. And it came to pass that every one who sought Jehovah went out to the tent of meeting which was outside the camp". It seems that God indicates His mind where the principle of separation is maintained.

In Deuteronomy there is to be a change of leadership and Jehovah appears at the tent of meeting. He had said to Moses, "Lo, the days are near for thee to die; call Joshua, and present yourselves at the tent of meeting, that I may give him a charge ... . And Jehovah appeared at the tent in the pillar of cloud; ... And Jehovah said to Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers". The time of Moses' departure was at hand, but the testimony was to be continued.

J.S. In connection with a change of leadership, how would you apply the principle today?

J.T. I think that God would indicate His mind concerning it among the assembly. In christendom leaders are introduced in another way.

Rem. The assembly answers to the tent of meeting.

J.T. Yes, it is the place or sphere where God meets with His people who are in separation and in sympathy with Him and one another.

Rem. It appears that there is a principle wherein God may bring in a change of leadership.

J.T. I think it is a principle with God to carry on the testimony in connection with leadership.

C.A.M. But is there not a principle or a suggestion that God may change or use various vessels?

J.S. Is it not more a succession to leadership here rather than a change?

Rem. That seems evident, for there is no change until Moses is about to die.

J.T. Yes, in the chapter before us we see how clear that is, "And Jehovah said to Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers". In a similar manner, Paul said, "the time of my departure is at hand", 2 Timothy 4:6.

Rem. His service was completed.

J.T. Yes, he had kept the faith and finished his course. Paul could say, "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the

righteous judge, shall give me", 2 Timothy 4:8. Paul is concerned about the continuation of the testimony and charges Timothy, "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word", 2 Timothy 4:1.

A.F.M. Where do you get the thought of succession to leadership in 2 Timothy?

J.T. In 2 Timothy 2:1, 2, Paul told Timothy, "Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also". Timothy is instructed there to take up the question of leadership and to see that the ministry was passed on to faithful men. The tent of meeting should have an important place in our minds, because it is the place where God makes known what His dispositions are. Of course God is sovereign in connection with His dispositions, but He makes them known among His people as we see here in Deuteronomy in view of the continuation of ministry and service.

Rem. We see the close of Moses' service and the beginning of Joshua's here.

Rem. Joshua was with Moses from the outset. Sympathy with the previous leader is necessary.

J.T. Joshua was Moses' minister. He was with Moses on the mount; and he remained in the tabernacle after Israel failed in connection with the golden calf.

Rem. It appears that God carried on the same line of things which Moses set out. For instance, in Joshua 20 we read, "And Jehovah spoke to Joshua, saying, Speak to the children of Israel, saying, Appoint for yourselves the cities of refuge, whereof I spoke unto you through Moses" (verses 1, 2). God does not disregard the previous leader.

J.T. Much is made of Moses; the previous leader is always recognised. Hence we read, "And it came to pass after the death of Moses the servant of Jehovah, that Jehovah spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' attendant", Joshua 1:1. Joshua is referred to as Moses' attendant. It is necessary that one should be adjusted after he is installed. Joshua was never anything to Moses other than his attendant.

J.S. Joshua would maintain what Moses spoke.

A.F.M. Deuteronomy 34:9 shows that: "And Joshua the son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands upon him; and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as Jehovah had commanded Moses".

J.T. Moses did not suggest the name of his successor. It says, "And Moses spoke to Jehovah, saying, Let Jehovah, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the assembly, who may go out before them, and who may come in before them, and who may lead them out, and who may bring them in, that the assembly of Jehovah be not as sheep that have no shepherd", Numbers 27:16, 17. Timothy is mentioned very little in the Acts, but he was qualified. I think the Lord takes up the one who is available, as seen in Timothy. You do not see a great vessel in Timothy as you do in Paul. The Lord said of Paul, "this man is an elect vessel to me, to bear my name before both nations and kings and the sons of Israel", Acts 9:15.

B.F. We see the priests associated with Joshua when he took up the position of a leader. He charges them in relation to the bearing of the ark of the covenant.

J.T. There is a suggestion there of state. We are priests and Levites in virtue of the fact that we are christians, and have the Spirit. Leadership is looked at from another point of view; God mentions Joshua in a special way in Numbers 27. Moses appealed to

Jehovah as the God of the spirits of all flesh, but he said nothing about Joshua. Then God said, "Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him". It may be said that every christian has the Spirit. But God particularly says of Joshua here that he is "a man in whom is the spirit". He is characterised by having the Spirit.

A.F.M. Joshua was not a young man now, but a man fully developed.

J.T. He is a man "in whom is the spirit".

H.S.D. He is not an inexperienced man.

J.T. Joshua has experience. Formerly, he was a young man and was spoken of as such. But at that time he was not mentioned in connection with leadership. The qualifications of a leader must be present with one whom God takes up, and these qualifications must be known and seen by the saints. God knew what was in Joshua.

Rem. If the brethren introduced a leader, he would spoil things as Saul did. But David was a man after God's own heart. God supports the man whom He brings forward.

J.T. David had a secret history which was brought to light by the Spirit; Saul had none, for he could not even find his father's asses.

Ques. What would his inability to find the asses suggest?

J.T. Do you not think that it refers to communion? Those who are in communion with God know His mind, and have light about things. Saul's servant said to him, when he was about to give up searching for the asses, "Behold now, there is in this city a man of God, and he is an honourable man; all that he saith cometh surely to pass: now let us go thither; peradventure he can shew us our way that we should go", 1 Samuel 9:6. Those who are in communion with God make His mind known.

J.S. How would you regard Timothy in connection with leadership?

J.T. The apostle said, "This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me", 2 Timothy 1:15. It was a question of apostolic authority. The brethren had turned away from Paul, but Timothy was one on whom he could lay his hands, a young man. Why should he take a young man? It was a strange thing.

Rem. Joshua was one who had brought back a good report of the land. He carried the truth of the heavenly position in his soul at all times. Now he has become a leader; the people are with him and he would continue to present the heavenly side of the truth to them.

J.T. He would be associated with Caleb as standing for the heavenly position and testimony.

A.F.M. Sometimes we see that there is opposition when the Lord brings forward a vessel. We may have our eyes on someone else, but the Spirit may indicate the opposite of what we had before us.

Ques. Are there leaders or one leader?

J.T. It is written, "Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God", Hebrews 13:7. It is in the plural. There are those who are qualified. It goes on to say, "and considering the issue of their conversation, imitate their faith".

Rem. So we think of Joshua, David, and others.

J.T. Those men were types of Christ in peculiar ways. But there are leaders, as we see in Hebrews "Obey your leaders, and be submissive; for they watch over your souls as those that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not groaning, for this would be unprofitable for you", Hebrews 13:17.

Rem. The point you are making is that the Lord places leaders among us and they must be recognised.

J.T. Yes, that is the idea.

W.B. "The pillar of cloud stood over the entrance to the tent. And Jehovah said to Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers". We see how God indicated His mind to Moses and showed him what he should do.

J.T. Yes, Moses was told to call Joshua and present themselves at the tent of meeting; and Jehovah appeared there. The presence of the Lord among His people brings out what He is doing, and whom He is owning. Hence God appears and speaks to Moses; and finally He says to Joshua, "Be strong and courageous; for thou shalt bring the children of Israel into the land which I have sworn unto them; and I will be with thee", Deuteronomy 31:23. The idea of God owning and appearing to His servant is magnified in the gospels in connection with the Lord Jesus. In Mark's gospel it is written, "Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptised by John at the Jordan. And straightway going up from the water, he saw the heavens parting asunder, and the Spirit, as a dove, descending upon him. And there came a voice out of the heavens: Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight". We speak of the Son, the Lord Jesus, as the Servant in Mark's gospel; and we see in what a marvellous way He is owned and recognised by God: "Behold my servant, whom I uphold, mine elect in whom my soul delighteth! I will put my spirit upon him", Isaiah 42:1.

A.F.M. "He saw the heavens parting asunder, and the Spirit, as a dove, descending upon him". The saints will see the glory of God in a similar manner, and it will be a confirmation to them.

J.T. You see an instance of that when Peter on the mount wished to make three tabernacles. But, "While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them ... . And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear

him", Luke 9:34, 35. God showed whom He had selected.

Ques. Would the glory appear today in the way of ministry?

J.T. One can never be sure of the way God may show Himself, of the way that He will come in; for He has His own way of appearing.

Rem. The Lord's coming among us has to be observed spiritually.

J.T. Yes, I think those who are spiritual recognise it. In connection with the departure of Moses we have a song: "write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel". I suppose Joshua is included in the writing of the song, "write ye this song". What is put into the mouths of the saints is a living ministry.

Rem. Joshua is associated with Moses in Deuteronomy 32:44: "And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun".

J.T. Yes, Joshua is linked up with the living ministry that was to be put in the mouths of the saints. The ministry was of a poetic form.

B.F. It was that form of ministry which would be preserved in the affections of the saints.

J.T. It was a poetic writing, and it was to be put in their mouths; it was to remain with them. The song was written the same day that he was told to write it (see Deuteronomy 31:22).

Ques. Why should this song be a witness?

J.T. God said, "this people ... will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them", Deuteronomy 31:16. This song would be a witness against them.

J.S. Hence we see that, "Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended", Deuteronomy 31:30.

J.T. Moses knew what to write. That very day it was composed in freshness, and it was full of life:

"My doctrine shall drop as rain,
My speech flow down as dew,
As small rain upon the tender herb,
And as showers on the grass", Deuteronomy 32:2.

Rem. One may learn the song, but unless he gets in touch with God, it will do him no good.

J.T. But it will be a witness for God against him. For instance, the Bible is read in churches; it is a witness on God's behalf. The next thing we notice in connection with the song is how Moses rises to the occasion. It is a voice to all old brethren. Moses is about to die, but he is told to write a song and he writes it immediately. Joshua has part in it, a living ministry with which this second leader is connected; and it is put in the mouths of the saints. But the book of the law is put into the ark. This may suggest the truth as it is in Christ. It will never fail; so that the reference in Revelation is, "Jesus Christ, the faithful witness".

A.F.M. So that Moses says, "For the name of Jehovah will I proclaim: Ascribe greatness unto our God! He is the Rock, his work is perfect, For all his ways are righteousness; A God of faithfulness without deceit, Just and right is he", Deuteronomy 32:3, 4.

J.T. Yes, and then he goes on to depict the condition of the people: "They have dealt corruptly with him".

Rem. Moses makes a touching appeal to the people in his song: "Do ye thus requite Jehovah, Foolish and unwise people? Is not he thy father that hath bought thee? Hath he not made thee and established thee?" Deuteronomy 32:6.

Rem. The song seems to be very wide; Moses calls on the heavens and on the earth (verse 1).

J.T. Yes, it is very wide.

J.S. Is there anything corresponding to this in the New Testament?

J.T. I do not know. Of course you do not always get everything in the New Testament. There are things in the Old Testament which are not necessarily repeated in the New; the fact that they are in the Old Testament is enough. There are things new and old, and their instructions are applicable for all dispensations. You see how the testimony is linked together in a living way.

Ques. Does verse 2 of the song (Deuteronomy 32:2), "My doctrine shall drop as rain, My speech flow down as dew, As small rain upon the tender herb, And as showers on the grass" suggest that the ministry of a leader does not die with him?

J.T. I think that as Joshua was Moses' attendant all the time he was never lifted up to the level of Moses. Hence he needs a good start.

Ques. Is Timothy a product of Paul's ministry?

J.T. Timothy was Paul's child. Paul said, "I have no one like-minded". Why should he speak thus of a young man? It was because there was no one among the older brethren.

Rem. The new leader would not reproach the old one.

J.T. We see how the thought is worked out in Joshua. He is associated with the song which Moses wrote; and we see how he continues after Moses' death: "And Joshua the son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands upon him; and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as Jehovah had commanded Moses", Deuteronomy 34:9.

J.S. You said that Joshua did not rise to the level of Moses.

J.T. He did not. When Joshua began his ministry, he is spoken of in terms that would humble him: "And it came to pass after the death of Moses