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THE WORD OF GOD

Hebrews 4:12, 13; 1 Peter 1:23 - 25; Luke 8:19 - 21

These scriptures speak of the Word of God, a title which is applied to the Lord Jesus Christ. It is said of Him in the book of Revelation that His name is called the Word of God. That will enable us to understand this expression in Hebrews 4, that "the word of God is living and operative", and that is something which in a living way was seen in the service of Christ here on earth. The woman at the well of Sychar is a type of this; her inner state was penetrated by the Word so that she could say that He had told her all things she ever did. The Word of God has always that effect when it has access to the heart. It has a searching character, but at the same time an edifying effect, and thus it is said that "the worlds were framed by the word of God",

Hebrews 11:3. There is a difference that we should notice between the commandment of God and the word of God. As to the physical creation it says in Psalm 33:9, "Forhe spoke, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast". What He spoke brought out His thoughts and leads us to the book of Proverbs as to creation; there we read that Wisdom was present in connection with His acts in establishing the universe. God's thoughts were revealed and set forth in creation, so in Hebrews 11:3 it says, "By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God". But what was thus made in wisdom remains. The commandment is with authority. It must remain. Therefore if any believer is in evil associations, the commandment comes first; that is, you must not remain in them. It is not your own free choice; it is a settled thing that you have to leave such associations. When I, according to God's commandment, leave evil associations the word of

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God becomes operative. It comes to my soul in living power and it searches me, as it says, until it divides soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart. By this we understand, beloved brethren, the difference we must make between God's commandment and God's word. The word spoken of in this chapter alludes to the glad tidings that were brought back by the spies from the land of Canaan. We all remember that twelve spies were appointed by Moses to go and spy out the land. In type it would mean that they would bring back the tidings of heaven. The Holy Spirit in our time corresponds to their testimony then. This testimony of the Spirit has specially in mind the gospel which was entrusted to Paul. It is not only the gospel of our salvation, but the glad tidings of the glory of the blessed God (1 Timothy 1:11). That is to say it involves the whole of Luke's gospel. Not only am I saved from the judgment of God and from this world, but the name of the believer is recorded in heaven. Therefore the testimony of the twelve spies contains the tidings which have come from heaven by the Spirit, as Peter says, "which have now been announced to you by those who have declared to you the glad tidings by the Holy Spirit, sent from heaven", 1 Peter 1:12.

Twelve spies were sent out and when they came back their collective testimony was that the land was good. Later ten of them denied their testimony but Caleb and Joshua kept to it, so that there was in Caleb and Joshua a complete testimony as to the land. It also says that they carried with them a cluster of grapes from the valley of Eshcol and this was borne between two on a pole. The testimony was therefore not only in words but there was proof in the fruit that they brought with them from the land. And, beloved brethren, it is of great interest that in the chapter where all this is recorded (Numbers 13) it

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says that Moses changed Hoshea's name to Jehoshua, which means Jehovah the Saviour. He is a type of the Lord Jesus Christ as one of the witnesses; Caleb is the other witness. We have therefore in the Person of Jesus and in the Holy Spirit sent from heaven a double witness of the riches of heaven. The Lord says to Nicodemus, "If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?" And then He says, "And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven". Beloved brethren, what a perfect witness we have in the Person of Jesus. He says, We speak that which we know, and we bear witness of that which we have seen. This speaker was not only One who had come down from heaven, but He is in heaven. And then the Holy Spirit is sent down by Him from heaven. That is to say that the Holy Spirit has come down from a heaven where Jesus is. How precious this is to our hearts! We have the name of Jesus in Numbers 13, and in Acts 7:55 Stephen sees Jesus, the glory of God and Jesus in heaven.

And when He speaks it is, "I Jesus". Beloved brethren, the testimony is of heaven, where Jesus is. And His presence there is the earnest of our presence there also because He will come again and take us to Himself. The whole assembly shall be caught up together as is said, "God ... has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus", Ephesians 2:4 - 6. But whilst it is true that we shall be caught up together, it is also a blessed truth that every individual saint has his name recorded in heaven. Every one will be acknowledged there. The Lord says Himself, "Rejoice that your names are written in the heavens", Luke 10:20. Another thing which is mentioned in Numbers 13 and to which I want to refer is Hebron. It says in that chapter that Hebron was built seven years before

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Zoan in Egypt. There are grouped together, therefore, in this chapter, the thoughts of Jesus and of a world which existed before this world was, of which Hebron is a type. It was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt. Zoan was a place of the wisdom of Egypt, a place where the glory of Egypt was, the glory of this world; but God has prepared for us things and wisdom which were before the world's foundation. "Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him", 1 Corinthians 2:9. But they are revealed; God has revealed them to us by His Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. We see therefore that we have a perfect testimony of what is in heaven. Have we, beloved brethren, believed this? That is the issue in Hebrews 4. Hence the exhortation in verse 11: "Let us therefore use diligence to enter into that rest, that no one may fall after the same example of not hearkening to the word". We are tested by the word of God as it reveals to us what is in heaven, and therefore we get the next verse which shows us what the word of God is and how it searches us. He says it is living and operative. It divides soul and spirit, joints and marrow. One would ask what those joints are. We cannot go or turn without the joint; and the marrow is the life of the bones. Here we see the actual frame of our being, and the inner power which sets the bones in movement. The Word of God penetrates every movement, and that which causes the movement.

The epistle to the Romans teaches us that our bodies should be presented as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God. When we then, as we see in Hebrews 4, are exposed to ourselves, not to others, but to ourselves, and when we judge ourselves in relation to it, the blessedness of the priesthood of Christ is available

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to us, as it says, "Having therefore a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God". The Word of God, by exposing us to ourselves, shows us how feeble we are, but at the same time how strong He is, and that we have such a high Priest, Jesus, the Son of God who has passed through the heavens. Therefore we can approach with boldness to the throne of grace and receive mercy and find grace for seasonable help.

Instead of turning back as the Israelites were doing in resistance against the word of God, we subject ourselves to the love which is ours, and determine to go forward in the assurance that our high priest will be with us to the end. It is beautiful to dwell on Caleb's and Joshua's testimony. It was no hurried survey they made in Canaan and it was not one-sided. There were twelve of them and they remained in the land forty days. They brought back with them the bunch of grapes as an evidence of the fertility of the land. The words of Caleb and Joshua are beautiful. They said, "The land, which we passed through to search it out, is a very, very good land. If Jehovah delight in us, he will bring us into this land, and give it us, a land that flows with milk and honey; only rebel not against Jehovah". These verses contain, as you see, a loving offer to the people. God has provided the means which we need to enter the land. He has delight in us. How wonderful to think that God delights in us, that He loves us so much that He has provided such a land for us. Beloved brethren, let this land be our longing; our great high priest is prepared to help us right to the end.

Let us now look at our scripture in Peter. I want to point out that inward formation takes place alongside the exercises we have just spoken about. Peter says that we are born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding word of God. If a word of God exposes the activity of the

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flesh in me to enable me to judge it, the word at the same time forms me so that I am clothed with the character of God, so that it can be said of me that I am born again by the living and abiding word of God. You will all remember how the Lord alludes to new birth in John's gospel. He does not there speak about the word, but emphasises the necessity of being born again. This side of the truth is stressed because of the Jews' claim to be children of Abraham. They said, "Abraham is our father", John 8:39. They claimed this. In John the Lord stresses the necessity for them to be born again. Therefore, whatever my parents or my forefathers might have been, whatever glory might have been attached to them or however pious they might have been, I must be born again. As an answer to Nicodemus's question the Lord refers to being born of water and of Spirit. This is an act of God. To be born again by the word of God is also exclusively an act of God. This in Peter though goes much further. It is not only to be born of water and Spirit but by the living and abiding word of God. The word of God had such an effect in me, that it can be said of me that I am born again by it, and the evidence of it is that I become partaker of the nature and character of God as it says, "Having purified your souls by obedience to the truth to unfeigned brotherly love, love one another out of a pure heart fervently", 1 Peter 1:22.

From this we understand, beloved brethren, that while Hebrews 4 would help us to go into Canaan as those who believe a testimony which has come down from heaven, this chapter in Peter would show us that we on the way should be marked by brotherly love, which is a result of the effect of the word of God in us, so that it can be said that we are born again by it. Therefore if I love the brethren from this viewpoint, I know why I do it. My intelligence has been formed by the word of God. To be born

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again according to John 3 involves instinct; what is born of the Spirit is spirit. A newborn babe has a natural instinct; it clings to its mother, but it does not have intelligence. It could not explain why it is clinging to its mother. Instinct is a feature of our nature which is of greatest importance. But when we come to this epistle the thought is not of a newborn babe, but of a person who has intelligence. I am born again by the living and abiding word of God. The word is the mind of God which has been working in me. It is not only an act of power after His own pleasure as by the Spirit in John 3, but by the word having entrance into my soul. Peter says, "This is the word which in the glad tidings is preached to you". In this we find an indication of what we have before us. The glad tidings, which is the word of God, is planted into us and is able to save our souls, but it is even more than this; it forms me so that it can be said of me that I am born of God, that I, in that sense, am a child of God. John speaks of us being children as having received Christ: "but as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God, to those that believe on his name", but he continues and says, "who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God", John 1:12, 13. Here in Peter we have how this birth took place, by the living and abiding word of God. From this we understand that a person born in the way this scripture presents, is intelligent. He loves, and he knows why he loves. If anybody should ask him why he loves the brethren, he could tell them. A noble is made to love a poor man. How can this be explained? It is by the living and abiding word of God; it has had its effect on the poor man as well as on the nobleman. The noble knows why he loves the poor man, and the poor man knows why he loves the noble. They are both born again by the living and abiding word of God; the noble therefore

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knows what it says in this scripture, that "all flesh is as grass, and all its glory as the flower of grass". We see how Luke speaks of Theophilus in his first narrative, Luke's gospel. He writes to him as the most excellent Theophilus. He had the right, through the ordering of God, to this title, and Luke understood this by the word of God. The word of God would never nourish or promote socialism or Bolshevism. Luke speaks of this man as the most excellent Theophilus. But, beloved brethren, on the other side Luke was really more excellent than Theophilus. Yet Theophilus had in the ordering of God a place in this world that Luke did not have. But when Luke writes to him the second time, he leaves out the title. Theophilus had obviously considered the thought of being born again by the living and abiding word of God, and he had received the understanding that through this birth he was brought to the level where Luke and all christians are. The more we understand what it is to be born by the living and abiding word of God, the more mutual we will be, as it says, "The rich and poor meet together; Jehovah is the maker of them all", Proverbs 22:2. Yet it is not, as in the last-mentioned scripture, that we are made or created, but that we are born. That cannot be said of mere physical things; they are created, not born. Think of what it means to be born of God, of that which opens up His thoughts to us, that which in truth reveals His nature and His counsel, the living and abiding word of God! It is in this way we enter into Canaan as the family of God, the children of God. Luke 8 would help us further to understand what we have had before us. What we have been looking at up till now, refers to the acts of God. If one is to be born again by the Spirit as in John 3, or to be born again by the word of God as in Peter, it is God's act. What we have in Luke 8 speaks of what I do in regard to the word of God.

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The Lord's mother and His brethren came to Him, and He got the message: "Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, wishing to see thee". Why did they not go in? Why did they stand outside? Those born by the living and abiding word of God, will go inside. By this I do not mean that they were not born again by the living and abiding word of God, because they are later seen in the company of the christians, but in this scripture they only represent natural relationships and the Lord refuses that. Natural relationships have no value in the light of the spiritual world. Here we have the best of natural relationships, the mother of Jesus and His brethren.

Why should they be outside? It is just because they are not governed by spiritual feelings or sympathies. Take as an example unbelieving children of believing parents or an unbelieving wife or husband. Such children have a certain affection for their parents, and a wife for her husband or a husband for his wife, but it does not go very far. Such are outside. The natural will never lead us to Jesus. Maybe some would go a certain way on account of natural love; maybe you would go to the meeting because your parents go. Thank God for that. But that in itself will not bring you to Jesus. You are still without, and you want to see Him without. You want Him to come out. As soon as the word of God has its effect in you, you will not ask Him to come out, you will go in. When His mother and His brethren were outside, and it was told Him that they wanted to see Him, we see that He repudiates this relationship.

But who are His mother and His brethren? The Lord answers this Himself: "My mother and my brethren are those who hear the word of God and do it". How serious it then is to have relationships with those who belong to the Lord, with those who bear the word of God and do it, and yet be denied by the Lord. The natural relationship is repudiated, and if

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the Lord Jesus should come tonight, your natural relationship would be of no help to you. You would be left here and your parents would be taken. Only those who have a spiritual link with Christ will go to heaven. The natural links have no value in this relation. What serious things the Lord would have to say to you. "I do not know you whence are ye". He therefore shows us here what gives us true relationship with Himself, hearing the word of God and doing it. We see therefore, beloved brethren, how the brethren of Christ come into view in this gospel. In Matthew and Mark it is by doing the will of God, but in Luke they come into view by hearing the word of God and doing it. It is therefore not only like a picture on the wall, but it is a reality to most of us. There are such here that are marked by hearing the word of God and doing it, and are therefore known to be in the most intimate relationship with Christ. He says, "My mother and my brethren".

Is there anyone here who is outside of this matter? It is a serious thing. Maybe in a natural way you love your parents and your brothers and sisters very much, but this gives you no standing in the heavenly family. The Lord says, "My mother and my brethren are those who hear the word of God and do it".

I trust that what has been said at this time would help us to understand the importance of the word of God, so that we might not be found as those who reject the heavenly land, but that we might go forward into it. It says in Hebrews 10:38: "And, if he draw back, my soul does not take pleasure in him", but then it says in verse 39, "But we are not drawers back to perdition". We go into Canaan as those who are born of God, by the living and abiding word of God, and who already are the children of God, as it says, "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God", 1 John 3:1. And we are known already as being brethren of Christ by hearing the word of God and doing it.

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THE HOLY SPIRIT (1)

John 3:35, 36; John 4:1 - 30

J.T. My thought is that we might, with the help of the Lord, understand how that which the fountain or spring represents is administered. It is good to note that it says, at the end of chapter 3, that, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand". Chapter 4 has to be read and understood in the light of this expression, that is that all things are placed in the hands of the Son, the One who is loved by the Father. This chapter therefore unfolds how the things that are in His hands are made available to men. He says, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water". It is very beautiful and affecting to see the Lord, although He is so great, in such a meek and humble position as sitting weary at the well. But although He was weary and was dependent on the woman for a drink of water, He was there to give living water. While He is seen in the beginning of Acts in His official position as the One whom God has made both Lord and Christ, and, as such, has sent the Holy Spirit from heaven, in this chapter He is the Person, the Son, who gives and distributes. And He is in such a position that one can ask Him for living water. John emphasises the greatness of the Person: "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is".

Ques. Does the position that the Lord took here give us boldness, and do we need faith to ask of Him?

J.T. That gives us another thought, that John has in mind to promote faith in us. He says in chapter 20, that what he has written, and this incident is included in that, was in order that the

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saints should believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing they should have life in His name. From His outward position one could not see who He was: He says, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is". The knowledge of the gift and the Person is therefore through faith.

Ques. When it says that the Father loves the Son, does that mean the Son as here on earth gives Him occasion to love Him?

J.T. I think it is so in John. The Son as Man here has given the Father cause to love Him. In another passage, He says that He has found His delight in Him, so that all that is given into His hands is based on what He was here, what appeared in Him as a Man. But the Father also loved Him before the foundation of the world.

Rem. It was emphasised that it is the Person, the Lord Himself, who is working here. That is different from Acts where the Spirit is working. Is the Lord working here with the coming of the Spirit in mind?

J.T. John always presents the truth from the standpoint of His Person, while Luke, in Acts, deals more with the official side. Nothing is mentioned in Acts as to His sonship until Paul comes in. I think it is good for us to see that in the first part of Acts the truth is connected with Christ as the One who has been made both Lord and Christ. That is what He is as the exalted Man in heaven, but John does not deal with what He is made, but who He is, so the Lord says here, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is". We have to preserve both these features in our hearts.

Ques. The thought here is that the woman is attracted to the Person?

J.T. That is the way in which the truth is expressed here. He does not tell her that He is Christ or the Lord, but presents the truth of who He is; so this gospel is to establish us in the knowledge of the Person, so that our faith should stand related to His

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Person, and that we should believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that we, in believing, should have life in His name. This woman got the understanding that He was the Christ. She says, "is not he the Christ?" John 4:29. Even in this the thought in John is the Person Himself. He is the Christ.

Rem. As a man He was sitting weary at the well, but His glory was not hidden for those with whom He came into contact. This woman says, "is not he the Christ?"

J.T. All that He was in Himself was there, but it was concealed. In the ark we see typically what His position was here on this earth. The ark of the covenant was a vessel of relatively small dimensions, but it contained the tables of the covenant. It was the strength of God and the glory of God (Psalm 78:61).

It was a small vessel outwardly. Thus the Lord was small outwardly, even dependent upon this woman for a drink of water, but inwardly He was God, a divine Person. The ministry of John would open our eyes to the greatness of the Person who was here; as those who thus know Him, we should ask Him for things.

Ques. Is the blessing of men the first thing connected with everything being given into His hands?

J.T. I think that is the thought in chapter 4. It explains this truth to us and shows us the importance of it.

Ques. You referred to the ark. Does it not mean that although the people were to understand what the ark contained, it was hidden from their eyes? Have our eyes to be opened in order to see what is in Him?

J.T. The dimensions of the ark always ended with a half. It was two and a half by one and a half by two and a half cubits, which would indicate that there was more than could be seen outwardly; just as the queen of Sheba said, The half was not told me. The great object in John's gospel is that we should come

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to the knowledge of the Lord's Person, not what He has been made, as in Acts, but what He is. What He is is necessarily greater than what He is made. His manner of life as Man here, qualified Him to be anointed and exalted to heaven, and to be made Lord and Christ. Peter uses this as a basis for his first address: he says, "God has made him, this Jesus whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ". But what He is personally must be behind all this. We are therefore here in the presence of His Person, and He gives living water: "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water".

Rem. John says in chapter 1, "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we have contemplated his glory". There were those who saw glory in His Person.

Ques. You said that His life here gave Him the right to be exalted to heaven. Does this involve that He showed Himself worthy of it?

J.T. That is right. Thus we find in the synoptic gospels that the heavens opened to Him when He was thirty years of age, and a voice came out of the heavens: "Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight". This refers to what appeared in Him here. But we do not find this in John's gospel. There He is contemplated at once as a divine Person, and thus there was no question of what He showed Himself to be on this earth, but what He was as the One who became flesh and dwelt among us, and therefore He says, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is ...".

Ques. Does it make the gift all the more wonderful when it comes from such a Person? Could we say that the gift was worthy of such a Person?

J.T. Just so, and therefore the Lord develops this subject here. He says, "the water which I shall give

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him"; it is not only the water, but He says, "the water which I shall give him"; He shows how great this is, and continues, "shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life". The heart is in this way attracted to the Person and the gift is characterised by the Person. Therefore it is not only that the Lord is working for God in giving living water; it is God Himself who gives.

We need to put ourselves into the position this woman was in and thus contemplate who He is. What is involved in what He is entered her soul. The christian life is really made up of this question -- who it is. The Lord presents this to all, as He says to the disciples, "Who do men say that I the Son of man am?" But then He says, "But ye, who do ye say that I am?" Matthew 16:13, 15. It is not only what I am thinking, but what I am saying. "Who do ye say that I am?" People like to speak of great persons and heroes, but do we speak of this great Person? It is not only what He has done, but who He is.

Ques. Is this the same thought as in John 17:3"And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent"?

J.T. There it says, "that they should know thee, the only true God". That is not quite the same because "Jesus Christ" is more the order of man which shone forth in Him. We could say that eternal life involves knowledge of the true God and the true Man. This scripture speaks of the true Man whom God has sent. This involves, of course, that His Person is behind it, but we have to discern what the Scriptures discern. Jesus Christ is what He was as Man here on earth. But when He says, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is", then it is the Person Himself. In the light of this we receive much instruction as to the order of the Man who shone out

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in this world in the Person of Christ, so that we have the true God and Man in relation to Him. This knowledge is connected with eternal life.

Ques. Does the thought in chapter 17, being in relation with God as Man, mean that it is in the knowledge of this that we have eternal life?

J.T. "And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent", John 17:3. It does not say there, 'the Son whom Thou hast sent', but "Jesus Christ". It is the same Person, and is the Person we turn to, but He is a Man.

Rem. She must have felt her sin but He does not condemn her.

J.T. What I think we can see is that she was deeply affected by what came forward. The Lord, as the One who has everything in His hand, made the matter a reality in her soul. We see in Hagar and Ishmael examples of persons who outwardly have part in the system of grace, but who are not affected by it in a lasting way; in contrast, this woman leaves her waterpot. From this we understand that she got the gain of the Lord's remarks that she should be a vessel containing living water. She went to the men, and proved by what she said that, in principle, she had the real thing in herself, the living water, so she could say, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done". If she had had a son, she would not be like Hagar and take a wife for him from Egypt, from the world. The Lord knew her sinful life, and He touched her inwards when He said, "Go, call thy husband, and come here", and in her words to the men, she proves that she was fully searched by the Lord's words to her.

Rem. A person who comes into touch with the Lord must necessarily be searched by what He says. Ques. Are not Hagar and Ishmael more connected with the kingdom of God? Here in John we have

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another side, the intimate side; He was Son of God.

J.T. That is what is coming forward here. What Hagar saw was ministry by the angels under the ordering of God, but although she was the object of such a service, it does not say that she got the reality of what was available for her. I think she is typical of persons who avail themselves of blessings in an outward way but who are not affected inwardly. She goes to Egypt to take a wife for her son; he dwelt in the wilderness and became an archer. At the end of Genesis we see that the archers provoked Joseph. Hagar and Ishmael are cast out of the house of faith, but grace meets them. But they do not return to the house of faith; they go in the direction of Egypt. Hagar filled the flask with water and gave the lad to drink without it having any moral effect, and they continue to walk towards the world. But here in John 4 is the principle that the woman understands that she herself is the vessel because we read that she left her waterpot; she does not go back to her old customs; she does not go back to Egypt. She goes to the men and tells them of Christ, which is something quite different from what Hagar did. And notice that it is not only to speak about Christ and leave it at that, but she says, "Come, see a man". There is nothing like this with Hagar. There is no thought with her about coming, but of going away; Yea, to the world.

Rem. It is beautiful that the woman in John 4 left her waterpot and that she herself was the vessel to be filled.

J.T. Yes, this is the principle. A great change had taken place in this woman, and she goes to the men; she went to the men who knew her, not only to the inhabitants of the city. What power there must have been in her, because they went out to Him. It says, "But many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him because of the word of the woman

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who bore witness, He told me all things that I had ever done", John 4:39. And they said, "We know that this is indeed the Saviour of the world". Such was the result. We can understand that if she had gone back into the city, and continued in her old way of living with all the light she now had, then her latter state would be worse than the former. But instead of that she went to the men, and they came to Christ so that a new order of things is brought in, an order in which He can remain; it says that He remained there two days.

Ques. And is that eternal life?

J.T. From this we will understand the principle. We are separated from this world and are on the way to the enjoyment of eternal life. Eternal life is a gift in Christ and this chapter teaches us that the believer reaches this by the Spirit. The living water springs up into eternal life.

Rem. She seems to be marked by perfect liberty in her conversation with the Lord. She brings in the subject of worship, and even the question of the Christ.

J.T. He told her wonderful things, but then all believers have the opportunity to hear all these things. It is possible to hear all these things, and to have part in them outwardly and yet go back into the world worse than you were before. If I carry all this wonderful light into the world I will only help to cover its iniquity, but when I say, 'Come', then I condemn the world and call people out of it. It is also seen that her testimony is in conformity with what the Lord said afterwards. They said to the woman, It is no longer on account of thy saying that we believe, for we have heard Him ourselves. They had heard Him themselves, and found that it was in conformity with her testimony. It is a principle in John that if the light of God reaches my soul through some vessel then I am not satisfied with that, but

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desire to go to the Originator of the light, and if the vessel is of God, the one who is thus used will not seek to make himself a centre. Such a one would say, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done". We need to hear Him for ourselves.

Ques. When the Lord speaks, He speaks both to the conscience and the heart. When John the baptist says, "Behold the Lamb of God" (John 1:36), is that speaking to our hearts? He points to the Person.

J.T. It is very beautiful to contemplate in the beginning of John how John the baptist made Christ the centre, a thing that goes through all this gospel. John says, "In the midst of you stands, whom ye do not know, he who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to unloose". And then he says, "A man comes after me ... because he was before me; and I knew him not; but that he might be manifested to Israel, therefore have I come baptising with water. And John bore witness, saying, I beheld the Spirit descending as a dove from heaven, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptise with water, he said to me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit. And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God", John 1:30 - 34.

And then he sees Jesus coming, and says, "Behold the Lamb of God", and two of his disciples heard his words and followed Jesus. Jesus is the centre to which they are drawn. When my ears hear such a voice I am affected by it so that I desire to follow Jesus. One of these two who heard this word of John and followed Jesus was Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, and he finds his brother Simon and brings him to Jesus. Jesus then finds Philip and Philip finds Nathanael, and Philip's word is "Come and see". That will settle everything.

Ques. Is it a result of the need to go through

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Samaria that this woman was saved, and the result of her going to the city that others also are saved?

J.T. Just so. This is now a place where Christ can remain; He remained there two days. The ministry in this dispensation is really "Come and see". When we come and see, we make room for Christ as they did in Samaria.

Ques. Is it right to say that this principle of coming and seeing is based on the three previous gospels?

J.T. I think that the three synoptic gospels refer to God drawing near to man in a Man who has been tested in this world. That is the principle in them. The public testimony which was given by the apostles is based on this. The fourth gospel tests the reality of the work because not all are genuine in professing christendom. The real come to Christ; they move. The Lord says in chapter 3 that "he that practises the truth comes to the light". Such a one is not frightened of coming to the light. He comes to it so that his works may be manifested that they are done in God. In our time people rest in humanly organised religious systems, but the thing is to come to what is of God, and that is the same as having to leave these systems.

Ques. What is the thought in verse 34: "My food is that I should do the will of him that has sent me, and that I should finish his work"?

J.T. Another point in John is that things are to be completed. It is said of Sardis, "I have not found thy works complete before my God", Revelation 3:2. That is to say, protestantism has never reached the counsel of God. It is not marked by completion, but the ministry of John leads us to complete things, so he quotes the words of the Lord: "I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it".

Rem. The Samaritans came to the Lord out of all parties.

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J.T. This woman would, from her natural feelings, displace Jerusalem. There had been much national rivalry between the Samaritans and the Jews, but all such disappears when we receive the knowledge of this Person. Therefore the gospel of John is specially important now for each believer, whether he is a Lutheran or one belonging to any other system. All true believers find common ground in the Person of the Christ; we should be able to be unified in the Person of the Christ. Then we have what He says. We surely can act upon His words and be guided by them.

Rem. So we are liberated from all these things by following the Person.

J.T. Usually the best way we can help our brethren in the different human organisations is not to ask them what they think of the doctrine of Luther but what they think of Christ.

Rem. That is living water.

J.T. Just so. You receive it from Him. When you have come to Christ, the next thing is that you are content to keep His word. That is the way to recovery. It is along these lines that God is working.

Ques. I have been thinking of how the Lord in this way gets an entrance into the heart. This woman is moved to search her heart as to her connections. Could this have its application in a religious way?

J.T. Therefore if anyone comes to Christ he will be searched as the woman was. The Lord said to her, "Go, call thy husband, and come here". That means that, in His goodness to us as well as in faithfulness to God, every matter related to us must be solved.

Rem. You were mentioning that this principle of coming and seeing is seen throughout this gospel. At the end of the gospel we have, "Come and dine", and Pilate said, "Behold your king".

J.T. But Pilate did not invite anyone to come to Jesus. This woman said, "Come". She did not say

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'Go, and see Him', but "Come, see a man". Many gospel preachers are like road signs. They tell us how to go but do not go themselves.

Rem. All that transpires in connection with this woman is the result of the Lord going through Samaria; that she went to the men is the result of that. John makes us evangelists in that sense. Go and invite them to come. Andrew is the great example of this. After having been with the Lord for a few hours, he finds his brother Simon and leads him to Jesus.

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THE HOLY SPIRIT (2)

John 7:37 - 39; Genesis 21:22 - 34

J.T. On this occasion I thought we could dwell a little more on the subject of the Spirit. What we were considering yesterday stands mainly in connection with the inner workings of the springs of water, whereas in the scriptures we have read today it is what is outward, that is to say, the public testimony which flows out as a result of the spring's inner working. In chapter 7 of John's gospel, the Holy Spirit is looked at more from the point of view of the dispensation. It draws attention to His presence during the whole of this dispensation. It was that Spirit that they who believed on Him would receive, for "the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified". The thought is that the Spirit's presence here is in accord with Christ in heaven. The presentation in this chapter is not so much the point of view that a divine Person gives Him as a gift, but that He is received by a believer. "But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive". This means those that had believed on Him during the time of His service here on earth. This scripture makes it quite clear that the Holy Spirit could not be received whilst Christ was still here but that He would be received after Christ was glorified. The allusion here then is to the fact that the Holy Spirit was received by the saints in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. The meaning of the Lord's saying, "He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water", is easily understood when we consider the great event when the Holy Spirit came down on the day of Pentecost. Consequently the allusion is to the Holy Spirit's setting aside

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judaism. It was on the last, the great day of the feast.

Ques. Is there inner refreshment in what we were considering yesterday?

J.T. Yes, that is what was in mind yesterday. Now it is the side of what is public. Is that clear?

Rem. Yes, I think so.

Ques. Can it be said that the woman in John 4, of whom we spoke yesterday, received the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Chapter 7 makes it clear that she did not receive the Spirit, but she received Him in principle; that is to say, Christ's service was as living water for her. Today, such an occasion as Jesus' meeting with the woman, would in this dispensation, embrace the reception of the Holy Spirit.

Ques. Is that why, in chapter 7, it says, "for the Spirit was not yet"?

J.T. Yes, that is right. It is right to remember that, for no one received the Holy Spirit in a permanent way until Pentecost. When John says that "the Spirit was not yet", he means that He was not here in a permanent way so that He could be received by believers.

Ques. Was it necessary for man after the flesh to be set aside before the Spirit could be given?

J.T. Just so, and also that man should be glorified in heaven in the Person of Christ.

Ques. Was it so that whilst the Lord was here in Person, no one had the Spirit residing in them?

J.T. Yes. The Lord says later, "for he abides with you", John 14:17. That is to say that the Holy Spirit was there in the Person of Christ. The Holy Spirit came upon Him in a bodily form as a dove, and abode upon Him, so that Christ's service was in the power of the Spirit of God. But until redemption's work was accomplished, no other person could receive the Spirit but Christ. The Spirit had had His part in creation in adorning the heavens

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(Job 26:13); He hovered over the face of the waters (Genesis 1:2); He had judged men during the time of Noah; He came upon some of the judges and upon David; holy men of God spoke, empowered by the Holy Spirit, but He never abode upon anyone in a permanent way, until Christ became Man and it was just that that distinguished Christ from any other man in the eyes of John the baptist. He says, "But he who sent me to baptise with water, he said to me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit". The Holy Spirit came upon such men as Samson and David, but did not abide on them. But here we see that the Spirit came down and abode on a man, and this shows clearly that Christ was a divine Person. He descended, as it says, in a bodily form as a dove and abode upon Him. Thus the Holy Spirit came upon Christ in all His fulness. The fact that He came as a dove would indicate perfect sensitiveness; He could rest there; He could abide there. In Christ there was absolutely nothing which could grieve the Spirit. The dove signifies sensitiveness.

Ques. Can we say that, in principle, this chapter corresponds with the present dispensation-as it is now?

J.T. It refers actually to this dispensation. The Spirit was not yet. What it really means is that He was not available to believers until Christ was glorified. Rem. Therefore we cannot think of the Holy Spirit other than in connection with Christ glorified.

J.T. That is just it, it is in this special character that He is here. Peter says, "Having therefore been exalted by the right hand of God, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which ye behold and hear", Acts 2:33. Although He retains His own individuality yet He is here as the Spirit of God, the Spirit of God's Son and the Spirit of Christ.

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Rem. Perhaps you will say something about these three titles.

J.T. It is good to make a difference. He is spoken of in these three connections, apart from His being a divine Person here. As the Spirit of God He testifies here on earth to what God is, revealed in Christ, and as the Spirit of the Son of God He expresses the relation in which Christ stands as Son to God.

As the Spirit of Christ He sets forth Christ's official position and character as the Anointed One. So the Spirit of Christ refers eminently to service. Peter says, "prophets ... searched out; searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ which was in them pointed out, testifying before of the sufferings which belonged to Christ, and the glories after these", 1 Peter 1:10, 11.

Ques. How do we understand Romans 8:9; "but if any one has not the Spirit of Christ he is not of him"?

J.T. Well, it is the character of Christ expressed in the Spirit of Christ and that gives us the thought of the anointing. It is really just in the same way that the anointing finds its expression in us. We also have the Spirit of Jesus in the New Testament, which would draw attention to that kind of Man who was down here on earth.

Rem. He is also called the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth. Would you say something about that?

J.T. The Holy Spirit stands over against the profanity that we find all around us, so that it says of the Lord Jesus in the epistle to the Romans 1:4, "marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord". And in chapter 5, where it mentions that the Spirit is given to us, it says, "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit

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which has been given to us". Here He is distinctly called the Holy Spirit. This is in order to promote what is priestly -- that is to say, a holy condition in us.

It is a holy love. So John 7 has the thought of a wonderful condition, namely, that the Holy Spirit is here and expresses Himself in rivers of living water which flow out of the believer.

Rem. That is a great exercise for us.

J.T. Yes, the effect of it can be seen in the saints. If we understand chapter 4 rightly and see the effect of the word on the woman's heart and how it laid bare her inner condition, it will make way for the Spirit to operate in us. The Holy Spirit acts of Himself in the believer. By way of illustration, take the automatic organs of the human body: for example the heart, or lungs, or stomach. We cannot make these organs do what we want them to do. We can control our hands and similar parts of the body, but over an organ like the heart we have no control: they are automatic or self-acting organs. So in just the same way the Holy Spirit acts of Himself in the believer. It is that which the Lord means when He says, "The water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life". This corresponds to the burnt-offering which was flayed and cut up into pieces. In Leviticus 1:9, it says, "its inwards and its legs shall he wash in water; and the priest shall burn all on the altar, a burnt offering, an offering by fire to Jehovah of a sweet odour". This means that all that Christ was here inwardly, ascended as a sweet odour for God, and that He devoted Himself completely to God.

So in the case of the woman -- an example of us all in respect of what we are naturally -- inwardly she was committed to what was corrupt and the Lord was going to see that all this was to be searched out by the word. "For the word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword,

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and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is not a creature unapparent before him; but all things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do", Hebrews 4:12, 13. This woman recognises this, when she says, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done". When this state is judged, place is made for the Holy Spirit, so that He can take these inner organs in His service for God. She realised that through her act the Spirit had already worked inwardly with her, so she carried something with her to the people; chapter 7 shows us the fulness of the result in that the Holy Spirit flows out as rivers of living water. So that if we have a right understanding of chapter 4 we will be capable of understanding the meaning of chapter 7.

Ques. Is the thought concerning the Spirit and the living water in chapter 4 that it cleanses?

J.T. Yes, it has that effect but we know that moral cleansing is by the word. In chapter 4 the water is not for cleansing but for satisfaction. Being born of water and of Spirit (chapters 3 and 13) involves cleansing, so that the Lord, in chapter 15 says, "Ye are already clean by reason of the word which I have spoken to you". But the thought of the water in John 4 and John 7 is satisfaction.

Ques. "If we live by the Spirit, let us walk also by the Spirit", Galatians 5:25. Is it a similar thought in this verse?

J.T. To live by the Spirit is more John 4, whereas walking by the Spirit is John 7. In the epistle to the Galatians it also speaks of the fruit of the Spirit.

Nine kinds of fruit are spoken of (Galatians 5:22). That is the public side.

Ques. Can John 7 be likened to Romans 8 in this connection?

J.T. Yes, I think that is right, though Romans

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does not go so far as Colossians or Ephesians. It is most remarkable that in Colossians the Spirit is only mentioned once, but the effect of the Spirit is prominent throughout the whole of the epistle; in this chapter we should look into His operation in an individual believer.

Ques. Was your thought in reading the scripture in Genesis to help us further and throw light on what we have been considering?

J.T. Yes, I had that in mind and I would like to continue with that now. The Old Testament serves us by way of explanation. We should notice in the chapter we had before us last evening that although Hagar took advantage of the spring, nevertheless she went and took a wife for her son from Egypt. This shows that she was not really in the good of the spring; she was not delivered from the world. The thought in John 4 is that the woman was delivered from the world. All her thoughts and feelings were turned away from the world towards Christ. The Lord says to her, "The water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life". Springing up really means that it ascends to God. We see that Hagar was not affected in such a way. She took, as the scripture says, a wife for her son out of Egypt. But in this connection when we come to Abraham we see the effect the spring has. It says in Genesis 21:25, "And Abraham reproved Abimelech because of a well of water that Abimelech's servants had violently taken away", and further down it says, "And Abraham took sheep and oxen, and gave them to Abimelech; and both of them made a covenant. And Abraham set seven ewe-lambs of the flock by themselves. And Abimelech said to Abraham, What mean these seven ewe-lambs, these which thou hast set by themselves? And he said, That thou take the seven ewe-lambs of my hand, that they may be a witness to me that I have dug

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this well". Consequently we see that Abraham in these seven ewe-lambs expresses the kind of spirit that characterised him, for in these ewe-lambs we have in expression that which was worked out in him. The male would probably be prepared to attack, but the character of the ewe-lamb is subjection and willingness. It is important to notice this, as it is just that sort of spirit that characterised Abraham. It says in the epistle to the Galatians, against such fruits of the Spirit, there is no law. There is not a shadow of doubt that Abraham's seven ewe-lambs point to these things. Abimelech, king of the Philistines, came to him with Phichol, the captain of his host. When anyone comes in that manner, it shows that it is not in the spirit of the ewe-lamb, it is certainly not in a docile spirit. For example, if we take the Germans before the war, or for that matter the British or the Norwegians, their armies or navies are not meant to show that they are prepared to subject themselves to anyone. It is just in the same way that the Philistine king came to Abraham. He wanted to demonstrate that he had might and that he was a powerful man. Often the brethren put on battledress; when anyone puts on that sort of uniform, with his sword at his side, he does not intend to give the impression that he is prepared to give in to others. It is, of course, right to put on armour when it is a question of a struggle against spiritual power of wickedness in the heavenlies, and when it concerns the truth, but the epistle to the Galatians shows us that it is the fruits of the Spirit that will always be seen in the believer. And what is the basis for this love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, fidelity, meekness, self control? It is that I have the Holy Spirit. So Abraham intended that, in the presence of Abimelech, there should be a testimony to Abraham's character and that the spring laid the basis for it. That is, "Not

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by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith Jehovah of Hosts".

Rem. So that the thought is that we ought to be submissive.

J.T. It is on this principle that the Holy Spirit is here.

Rem. When Abraham went to set Lot free he had not the seven ewe-lambs with him.

J.T. No. He had trained armed men born in the house with him then. He fought against his enemy, but in this instance he had to do with a man to whom God had already spoken regarding Abraham.

Ques. What corresponds with Abimelech today? He was not an Egyptian.

J.T. No, he is a picture of persons amongst us who perhaps depend on the flesh. Abraham had already prayed to God about Abimelech; therefore he was in a special relationship with him. As we said, God had spoken to Abimelech as well. We read in Genesis 20:6, "And God said to him in a dream, I also knew that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart, and I, too, have withheld thee from sinning against me". Consequently we can understand that Abimelech is reckoned here as a man whom God will help and to whom He can speak. We have prayed for such. However, it does not appear that Abimelech had got much help, since he came with the captain of his host, but Abraham met all this with the seven ewe-lambs. It is just as if Abraham would say, 'Well, Abimelech, if that is your attitude, I will show you mine. You make a show of military might, but I want to show you that I have the Holy Spirit'.

Rem. God was with Abraham.

J.T. Yes, he certainly was. God honoured Abraham in such a way that Abimelech sensed it. It is a question of the Holy Spirit's power.

Ques. What is the thought in Abraham's reproving

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Abimelech for the well that Abimelech's servants had violently taken away?

J.T. This shows the way the Philistines carry on. Their purpose is to take away what gives us all this moral worth. Notice that they had taken it violently, which shows that the character of the Philistines is violence. That is the way the flesh carries on; we meet this with the grace of the Spirit, so that it says in Romans 12:20, "If therefore thine enemy should hunger, feed him; if he should thirst, give him drink; for, so doing, thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head".

Ques. Do these things happen in a meeting?

J.T. Yes, of course. We touch the flesh daily in ourselves and in our brethren. That is the reason why this subject is introduced into the epistle to the Galatians and why Hagar and Ishmael are mentioned there.

Ques. Might it have the appearance of a better knowledge of the Scriptures?

J.T. Yes, certainly, because this man had had to do with God. God had spoken to him.

Rem. So it is absolutely necessary that we should search ourselves.

J.T. Just so. That is just the point, so that I do not adopt Philistines characteristics. These Philistine lived in Canaan.

Ques. Have we the same thought in 2 Corinthians 10:1, "But I myself, Paul, entreat you by the meekness and gentleness of the Christ"?

J.T. Yes, exactly. This comes out particularly in the second epistle to the Corinthians.

Ques. Does the first epistle to the Corinthians correspond with Genesis 21:25?

J.T. You mean that Abraham put Abimelech right. That is so, and 1 Corinthians is calculated to preserve the spring in its right sense. I imagine that those who took the lead in Corinth had violently taken

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away things to acquire something for their own exaltation. They pretended to have all that Paul had but this was not so. It was violence. Paul said his announcing to them the testimony was not in excellency of word or in wisdom but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that, as he says, "Your faith might not stand in men's wisdom, but in God's power". Abraham was concerned that the well should be in the place just where it was. He had dug it and it was going to remain in his possession. He says, "That thou take the seven ewe-lambs of any hand, that they may be a witness to me that I have dug this well". This was to remind Abimelech of the spirit Abraham was in. He was always to remember it.

So now to show the full meaning of all this, it says in Genesis 26:26 - 28, "And Abimelech, and Ahuzzath his friend, and Phichol the captain of his host, went to him from Gerar. And Isaac said to them, Why are ye come to me, seeing ye hate me, and have driven me away from you? And they said, We saw certainly that Jehovah is with thee; and we said, Let there be then an oath between us -- between us and thee, and let us make a covenant with thee". Here we have got something else, as we see. Abimelech brings another man with him -- a third person this time, namely Ahuzzath his friend. Here we have what is social. He is a king and has an army, but he also has a place socially. Even if I am not frightened by military might, it is possible that I may be ensnared by what is social. This visit is much more impressing than the first with the result, as we read, that "he made them a feast, and they ate and drank. And they rose early in the morning, and swore one to another; and Isaac sent them away, and they departed from him in peace. And it came to pass the same day, that Isaac's servants came, and told him concerning the well that they had dug, and said to

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him, We have found water", Genesis 26:30 - 32. So you see Isaac lets the Philistines go away, whereupon God gives him water to maintain him in separation from the Philistines. And so it says, "And he called it Shebah; therefore the name of the city is Beer-sheba to this day" (verse 33). Genesis 21:31 speaks about the name of a place but in connection with Isaac it is a city. We have now reached the city. I believe this shows the spiritual progress which is made when I let the Philistines go away. I then get water to support me, and I am in a city.

Ques. Why did he make them a feast?

J.T. He did not want war but peace, but it is peace at a distance because he let them go away. As far as possible we, on our side, keep peace with all men, but we do not have intercourse with them.

Rem. But surely we should not have peaceful relations, or fellowship, with anyone who would take away the well.

J.T. There is no question of fellowship when we let people go away.

Rem. Though we have here the thought of a feast.

J.T. What is laid upon us is that we keep peace with all men. It is not yet the time to cast out the Philistine. We are still strangers and foreigners in the land. The point is that both Abraham and Isaac were superior to these men.

Ques. And should not our position be the same in a moral respect?

J.T. Exactly, we should not come under the influence of such men.

Ques. Is not this the same as in Galatians 6:10? "So then, as we have occasion, let us do good towards all, and specially towards those of the household of faith".

J.T. Yes. So when for us the "place" has become a "city", then we have come to some understanding of light, order and administration. From

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scriptures further on, we see what a wonderful place Beer-sheba was. It is a testimony to God's faithfulness.

Rem. The city is protected.

J.T. Just so. You feel now there is particular safety in Isaac's position. There is a city which is called Beer-sheba. Abraham planted a tamarisk there, and called on the name of Jehovah, the eternal God. Abraham is in the light of the eternal God, and Isaac is in a city.

Ques. Is the thought then, that as individuals we make way for the Spirit? We walk in the Spirit to make way for Him. But we also make way for Him as gathered together. We are occupied with what is spiritual and consequently we are not like the Philistines.

J.T. Yes. This will be seen in the city. I believe these scriptures in Genesis show how a believer today can be superior to the most well-taught, efficient and influential person after the flesh. Instead of being influenced by them we exercise influence over them. Abimelech had to recognise both in Abraham and Isaac, that God was with them. For whoever God is with, he is the greatest man.

Rem. So the seven ewe-lambs become a very powerful weapon. We need to ponder this thought of the ewe-lambs; it will help us in relation to obedience.

J.T. Yes, just so.

Rem. Otherwise everything will be in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.

J.T. Yes. "For the arms of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful according to God to the overthrow of strongholds", 2 Corinthians 10:4.

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THE HOLY SPIRIT (3)

John 14:15 - 17, 25, 26; John 15:26; John 16:7 - 11

J.T. What we have previously considered in the meetings relates more to the individual believer than to the company. The scriptures we have read now speak of the Spirit coming personally to be in the company which is really the assembly. So He is called here "another Comforter", which involves the thought that He has come to take the place of Christ, the One who has ascended into heaven. The first part of the gospel involves the understanding of this teaching so that we can understand what is presented here. In chapter 1 we read that Jesus is the One who baptises with the Holy Spirit. Baptism is introduced there, and so chapters 4 and 7 deal firstly with the deliverance of every individual from the world, while chapter 7 takes up the outward effect with a believer. The Lord says there, "He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water", John 7:38. That part of the body referred to, namely the belly, means the development of emotions, which shows that a believer is delivered in his emotions unlike other men. So the lower organs of the body are used here typically in this connection. When it is a question of life it is more the lungs; that is, the Spirit is not looked upon there as water but as breath. In chapter 20 we see that the Lord breathed into them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit", John 20:22. The thought there is more the breath of Christ, and that is really what the word 'spirit' means. So chapter 20 brings forward a higher order of life, whereas water has more to do with our lower feelings and satisfaction, so that instead of being trapped by the world through these lower feelings

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they are turned to God. Instead of the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, we have a fountain of water springing up into eternal life. But the thought of Christ breathing into us means that we have His Spirit and are capable of representing Him here. He said, "As the Father sent me forth, I also send you". The rivers of living water flowing out (chapter 7) allude, I think, to our sympathy towards men. But in chapters 14 and 16 the Holy Spirit is spoken of as "another Comforter". Just as the Lord Jesus undertook for His people here, so the Holy Spirit does now.

Ques. Is the Spirit there more connected with the assembly, in that He acts for us in that connection?

J.T. Just so. The Lord says, "I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth", John 14:16. So that the Lord Himself mentioned that, great truth that we have another divine Person to be with us down here.

Rem. That would set us free from wanting human regulations.

J.T. It is an important thing to understand that. So we see that in Acts 13 when it was a question of sending out men in the service of the gospel it was not the assembly which did that but the Holy Spirit said, "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them", Acts 13:2. And then we read, "They therefore, having been sent forth by the Holy Spirit, went down to Seleucia" (verse 4). We also see the same thing in Paul's address to the elders of the assembly at Ephesus. He says, "Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God", Acts 20:28. And in 1 Corinthians 12 we read that "For also in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body" (verse 13), and we also see there that

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the gifts operate by one and the same Spirit. They are indeed spiritual gifts. We understand from this that man and his religious regulations are completely shut out as unnecessary and wrong. The Holy Spirit, a divine Person, is personally here and takes up everything which concerns the assembly.

Ques. How do we understand that the Spirit is sent by the Father in chapter 14, by the Son in chapter 15, and in chapter 16 He comes of Himself?

J.T. I believe that springs from the fact that divine Persons are on an equality, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. As we might expect, the Father is mentioned first. It says in John 14:26, "The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name", and in John 15:26, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father". The Father sends Him in the Son's name and the Son sends Him from the Father. A strong expression is used in John 15:26. It says that He came forth "from with the Father". This means that the Holy Spirit is sent by the Son from with the Father. Although this does not sound grammatical in our language we ought not to neglect taking notice of it. The meaning is plainly that the Holy Spirit who was sent forth from being with the Father is able to bring to us the Father's thoughts about Christ. It is also a thought which runs through this gospel, that persons are sent forth from being with the one who sends them. So that it is not only that the Spirit comes with a message, but He comes as One who fully knows the Father's thoughts.

Ques. Have we this thought in the expression "and the Word was with God", John 1:1?

J.T. Yes, that is the same thought, and I believe it is the basis of being sent in the whole of John's gospel.

Rem. That was also the case with the disciples; they were sent from being with Him.

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J.T. Yes. It says, "And he appointed twelve that they might be with him, and that he might send them to preach", Mark 3:14. There are persons today who are sent out from organisations in Christendom as missionaries, but before they are sent out they are trained at schools and universities, but that is not the thought in Scripture. The question is, are we with the Lord Jesus before we are sent out? But now to go on with our brother's question concerning the three ways in which the Spirit comes, we see that the Lord formally says that He will send the Spirit "But I say the truth to you, It is profitable for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go I will send him to you" John 16:7. But stress is also laid on the fact that the Spirit comes of Himself. So the Lord continues in verse 13, "But when he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming". I believe, therefore, that chapter 16 has specially in view the position that the Lord has as Mediator, that is, He operates from that position in heaven as the One who controls everything, and He sends the Spirit from up there to continue the testimony here. That preserves the public position of the believer in a scene where there is conflict.

Ques. Is there any difference between the expressions "Spirit of truth" and "the Holy Spirit"?

J.T. Yes; there is a difference. The Spirit of truth is mentioned to begin with: "If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him nor know him; but ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you", John 14:15 - 17. In verse 26 in the same chapter the Lord speaks of the Holy Spirit.

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I believe that the Spirit of truth is here in contrast to the moral confusion which is found in this world. Of all that God first set up here there is now nothing that has not been brought into disorder. If, for example, we take the marriage relation or government, these things were set up by God, but we find that all is brought into a position of moral confusion. The presence of the Spirit of truth here involves the thought that there should be a recovery of everything in the assembly into conformity with the truth. The thought which is in "truth" is measure and balance, that is, a perfect pattern is seen in Christ who Himself is the Truth. That is just what He says in chapter 14, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life" (verse 6). So the Holy Spirit is here in relation to all that as the Spirit of truth. It is not only that true things are found among christians; most Protestant creeds contain true things, but true things in themselves are not the same as the Spirit of truth. The Spirit of truth in this is somewhat outwardly unnoticed and inexplicable but it is through the presence of the Spirit that we can judge error. The Holy Spirit in verse 26 is another side. God's nature is holiness and the Holy Spirit will unceasingly maintain holiness among God's people. It is well to note that it says that the world cannot receive Him; for they neither see Him nor know Him. That clearly shows that christianity is completely separate from the world. There cannot be any mixture. The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth; they do not see Him or know Him.

Rem. It says in verse 8, "And having come, he will bring demonstration to the world, of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment", John 16:8.

J.T. He brings to the world the demonstration of sin and of righteousness and of judgment. That is another important matter which I think we can look at later. In the meantime there is one point which

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we should notice, that He brings demonstration to the world of these things. Demonstration means that the position is laid bare. From the beginning here we see how the world is shut out from having any part in the Spirit of God, whereas the world is recognised in the great, so-called religious parties. It is nothing but giving the world a false lustre.

Ques. After the resurrection of the Lord He was seen by His own only. Is that the same thought?

J.T. Yes. It says in verse 19, "Yet a little and the world sees me no longer; but ye see me; because I live ye also shall live", John 14:19. "Judas, not the Iscariote, says to him, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself to us and not to the world? Jesus answered and said to him, If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him", John 14:22, 23. The difference between the world and us is that we keep Christ's word, something which the world does not do. So the Lord says to Philadelphia, "Thou hast a little power; and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name", Revelation 3:8. From this we understand how the true saint of God is separated from the world and because we take heed to the word the Father and the Son come to us, but the world sees Him no longer. "If ye love me, keep my commandments", John 14:15. In this connection He speaks of begging the Father "and he will give you another Comforter". So we have something else in verse 26: the Holy Spirit reminds us of the Lord's word. "But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you". One should take that to heart, every single one for himself, that in the acceptance of teaching or in remembrance of these things, the natural mind can so easily sneak in. But the thought is that

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holiness in the Spirit should prevent that; the Spirit is the One who teaches and brings to our remembrance.

Rem. It is remarkable that although the Spirit has such a place not only in us but among us, we should not pray to Him.

J.T. Yes, the position of the divine system is that the Lord is in heaven. We worship the Father and the Son there. Even the Lord when He was here did not teach His disciples to pray to Him, but said, "Thus therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in the heavens", Matthew 6:9. And when He was about to leave this world, He said, "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, this will I do", John 14:13.

Ques. Is the thought then that the Spirit does not speak for Himself?

J.T. Yes, the Spirit is here as sent.

Ques. We should not address ourselves to the Lord with every sort of prayer?

J.T. No; we should pray with understanding. This scripture stands in connection with the testimony. When we pray in our homes regarding temporal things, I believe we should turn to the Father, but I would pray to the Lord regarding the testimony. He indicates that He Himself in heaven is the Object for our faith, as the Father is: "Ye believe on God, believe also on me", John 14:1.

Rem. I suppose we should pray to God for the gospel.

J.T. We are not limited for it is the gospel of God, the service of God and the testimony of God. All that concerns God; but the thought of God is more embracing, while the Lord is Lord in connection with the testimony. As Lord He also stands related to the kingdom, all that concerns the kingdom of God. When we pray about something which has to do with our bodies or our temporal circumstances I think that it is right to connect all that with God as Father. But we can pray to the Lord about everything

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which concerns the kingdom, the testimony, or the assembly.

Rem. Romans 8 speaks of the Spirit coming to help us in our prayers.

J.T. That shows us what the Spirit's service is. When we do not know what we should pray for as is fitting, the Spirit Itself makes intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered. That shows us that His intercession is perfect; this groaning is completely understood by God who searches the hearts.

Rem. We also have the thought of praying in the Spirit (Ephesians 6).

J.T. That is, that we are in that position, but Romans 8 shows us what a great advantage we have in that the Spirit joins Its help to our weakness. He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. It is with groaning which cannot be uttered, but He who searches the heart knows what is in the mind of the Spirit. Therefore we have in the Spirit, who dwells in us, a Person who intercedes perfectly whom God understands because He searches our hearts. There is therefore much more intercession than that which is expressed in words by the saints. Intercession is not limited to what is expressed in words. Abraham's servant prayed in his heart, and likewise Hannah; only her lips moved. There must have been a putting together of words but it was not audible. What resources we have in that the Spirit makes intercession for us in groanings that cannot be uttered! How much use in intercession may the Holy Spirit make of saints who are on sick-beds or who spend sleepless nights! We do not even have to say anything.

Ques. Could we have a word about chapter 16?

J.T. The time has almost gone, but we should notice that the Holy Spirit teaches us all things and brings all things to our remembrance, so that John

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says in his epistle that we have no need that anyone should teach us. The Spirit reminds us also of everything Christ said here on earth, so that nothing is lost. He said, "He shall teach you all things, and will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you", John 14:26. I often think of the things that the Lord said, all the Lord's great utterances. We know from our own experience how forgetful we are and we can understand how the wonderful utterances of Christ might have been forgotten had it not been for the Holy Spirit. But the presence of the Comforter here means that each word that the Lord said to His own is preserved. How right it is that none of Christ's holy words should fall to the ground! I would desire that my heart should be a treasury of all these precious jewels. In the pattern of the temple which David had from the Spirit there were treasuries. In 1 Chronicles 28:11 we read that "David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of its houses, and of its treasuries". Treasuries are places where treasures are kept, so the thought plainly is that this feature is found in the assembly. The Holy Spirit reminds us of all things that Christ said to His disciples. What can be greater treasures than these communications of love which He gave to His own. The apostle Paul took out of his store when he said to the elders of the assembly at Ephesus, "I have chewed you all things, that thus labouring we ought to come in aid of the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that he himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive", Acts 20:35. This word of Jesus is not mentioned in any other place, which shows that Paul himself was a treasury. The Holy Spirit thus wants to remind those who belong to the assembly of everything Christ said to His disciples. Nothing is lost; everything comes forward in one way or another through the development of the truth in the assembly.

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Ques. Do not the four gospels show the truth of what the Lord said?

J.T. Yes; that is just what the four gospels express. The principle in this is to remind us of the Lord's word to the disciples, but what is written in the gospels is only a small part of what the Lord said. It is not intended that what is not written in the gospels should not come out, for John says, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written", John 21:25. That shows the greatness of it and the Holy Spirit sees to it that nothing is lost. Ques. Do we understand that what is written is the kernel of the Lord's words and actions?

J.T. Yes; that is right. For faith there is sufficient in the gospels but it was not intended that all should be written there, for the principle of brevity is a great feature with God. It shows that He can express things in a few words and yet leave out nothing that is needful for us.

Ques. Do we see this in connection with Philip in Acts 8? The Spirit said to him, "Approach and join this chariot", Acts 8:29. Then he heard what the eunuch was reading and he began from that scripture and announced the glad tidings of Jesus to him.

J.T. That is important to notice, that God does not have before Him any richness of words in the Scriptures but they contain sufficient for us. On the other side John remarks that the whole world could not contain the books which might be written. He says, "books" in the plural, and the Lord says, "The Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you", John 14:26. It is all things.

Ques.

When it says, He "will bring to your

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remembrance all the things", does it mean that the word is living for us?

J.T. Yes; that gives us the understanding of the great ministry in the word which has taken place since Pentecost. The Scriptures are necessarily what prove everything, but what is said now is by the Spirit. "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies", Revelation 3:13.

Ques. Does not the Old Testament really contain the details of what the Lord said?

J.T. Yes. We have the details there. At the end of chapter 15 the Holy Spirit is sent from with the Father, so that we have One who is able to witness to the Father's thoughts in relation to the Son. It says, "He shall bear witness concerning me", John 15:26. In this scripture it is a question of what the Spirit will witness concerning Christ, but in chapter 16 He is sent by the Lord Himself, and the first thing He does as thus sent is to expose the world; that is, He brings in among the saints a perfect conviction of the three things, "Sin, righteousness and judgment". And then the Lord says, "I have yet many things to say to you, but ye cannot bear them now. But when he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming. He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine and shall announce it to you. All things that the Father has are mine; on account of this I have said that he receives of mine and shall announce it to you",

John 16:12 - 15. From what we have considered, dear brethren, I believe that we shall be able to understand the Spirit's activities more plainly as the One who has come to the company.

Ques. In Hebrews 1 it says that God has spoken to us in the Person of the Son. Is that connected with your subject?

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J.T. In Hebrews 1 we have the truth presented in its greatness and completeness and the fact that God in these last days has spoken to us in the Person of the Son is set in contrast to the prophets. In Hebrews emphasis is laid on the great authority which He is in possession of, for He Himself is God. It says that God spoke in the prophets, in men like us, but in contrast to that in these last days He has spoken to us in the Person of the Son. In the original it says "in Son". From this we understand that there is authority in what He says, and the apostle says, "How shall we escape if we have been negligent of so great salvation", Hebrews 2:3.

Ques. We are warned not to quench the Spirit. Is that a word to the assembly?

J.T. There are two things: to quench the Spirit and to grieve the Spirit. To quench the Spirit would mean that we allow a condition which quenches His activity and His speaking. He is very sensitive -- a thought which is presented in the type of the dove. We are also warned not to grieve Him.

Rem. It says that He will announce to you what is coming.

J.T. Yes, it says that in verse 13. I believe that the Holy Spirit has brought in light in relation to what is coming so that we have the whole fulness of the truth announced to us. We know the end from the beginning.

Rem. It says of the little children, "The unction which ye have received from him abides in you, and ye have not need that any one should teach you; but as the same unction teaches you as to all things, and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in him", 1 John 2:27. Is not that a quality of the assembly?

J.T. Yes; and the Spirit even gives us knowledge of coming events that God will do in the future.

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TAKING ROOT DOWNWARD

Isaiah 37:21 - 23, 30 - 32

This attack of the Assyrian is accorded a prominent position in the divine records, in the historical books and also in this book of Isaiah, the prophet. Inasmuch as it appears in the prophet, it has a prophetic setting, and therefore a prophetic voice. We read in the New Testament of the voice of the prophets. It may be that we have not heard the voice of the prophets, but it is a voice intended for us, especially as to this feature, this attack of the Assyrian against Jerusalem, because, as moving according to the will of God, as we are thus, we are the objects of attack. No person, or number of persons, corresponding in any way to Christ in this world, can escape attack, especially so if we recognise the church. There are many of the Lord's people who do not recognise the church; in fact they hardly know what the word means, for, in current language, the word has lost its primary meaning. Perhaps one true believer out of ten could give, could convey, the scriptural idea of the church; he must therefore consider whether he is walking in the light implied in the word. The word 'church' in Scripture is properly translated 'assembly'. The ordinary word is applied now to religious bodies, or religious buildings. But primarily it is a word applied to Christians referring only to them as people called out of the world, separated from it, and set up in holy unity and fellowship. We have in the epistle to the Corinthians the classifications of persons resident in any town; in the early days there were the Jews; that is to say, those who resorted to the synagogue; and there were the gentiles or Greeks, who resorted to the idol temples; and there were the Christians, who met together and were called the

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assembly of God. So you have this in a very simple way, beloved friends, the idea, the divine idea of the church as seen in many towns and cities of the ancient empire of Rome, and it is a word of prophecy.

The voice of the prophets is of great importance as bearing on the saints viewed in this light. They are the objects of attack, and this feature in Isaiah contains both instruction and encouragement to us, as to how the position of the saints as called out, as separated, as set up here, according to the will of God collectively, is defended and protected. So that Isaiah, whose prophecy is more intensive in its bearing than that of any other of the prophets, includes this important event of the attack of Sennacherib upon Jerusalem and Judah in the days of Hezekiah. It is to bring in the prophetic voice, so that it should be heard, and be a comfort and an instruction to us. The prophetic voice is not merely instruction; it is what the word signifies -- "a word from God". The prophet brings God to the conscience, and so the apostle says to the Corinthians, "But if all prophesy, and some unbeliever or simple person come in, he is convicted of all, he is judged of all; the secrets of his heart are manifested; and thus, falling upon his face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you", 1 Corinthians 14:24, 25. He came into the Christian assembly. Why did he not go to the synagogue? Why were his feet directed to these people having no ecclesiastical standing, no religious status at all? Why had he come? It is a good question for any person who knows the ministry of the Spirit of God -- why did he come? He came. It is well for you that he did. And he falls down as the prophet ministers the word of prophecy. There is not much moral fibre, beloved friends, if he does not learn to fall down. The Lord Jesus is said by Simon to be set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel. One who falls on that stone may be broken.

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It is well to be broken, as Saul of Tarsus was. He fell. He fell to the ground. And so this man fell down, it says. He fell down. There is not much hope for anybody who is merely coming to hear what these people hold. It is a question of a moral state of soul, and if that be there, the prophetic word will bring you down. He falls down, and he acknowledges that God is among you of a truth. It is one thing for us to assume it. There are many who assume the presence of the Lord, the presence of God, as they come together, but then is He there "of a truth", or is it a mere imaginary thing? You remember how the Lord Jesus remained behind in Jerusalem when his parents set out after the feast for their own place. They thought He was with them. I mention what is very simple and has often been repeated and is most practical.

There are many who assume the Lord is with them, but is He with them of a truth? That is to say, is His authority there? How has it authority? -- by the prophetic word that God is there. Then he fell down; that is, you go out smaller than you were when you came in. He fell down, and he acknowledged something. You may often look at the heavens and acknowledge the Creator, and you should, and give thanks for the evidences of creation. God is there, in a certain way, but then you see, beloved friends, that God can be found in a company of christians, that God is among them of a truth. How wonderful to be sure about that! it comes out in the one who falls down; he makes an acknowledgement.

Well, that is the setting of the scripture, and I wanted to come to the idea of root. I have got that in mind in what I have to say -- taking root downward. The first thing is to strike the earth in humility, in self-judgment, and the next thing is to take root, "root downward", it says here, and then "bear fruit

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upward". We may not be rooted downward. I may be rooted somewhere else. Scripture makes much of roots. The Lord Jesus is the root really of all that is of God. There is nothing else outside of that. He says in the last chapter of the last book of the Bible, "I am the root and offspring of David" (Revelation 22:16), the root. It is beautiful, the fruit that the Spirit of God so delights in. You take the book of Psalms. What is brought out but fruit for God in those psalms, the outgoing of David's heart Godward, not only in his own Psalms but in the arrangement of others. Well, Christ was the root of all that. A young man came to Saul and said, "I have seen a son of Jesse"; that is David, the most interesting man in the Old Testament. It says: "And one of the young men answered and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skilled in playing, and he is a valiant man and a man of war, and skilled in speech, and of good presence, and Jehovah is with him", 1 Samuel 16:18. Jesse had eight sons. Samuel comes in and sees Eliab, and says, "Surely Jehovah's anointed is before him", 1 Samuel 16:6. No, he was not before Him. That was not the son of Jesse whom this young man saw. "I have seen a son of Jesse", he says. 'He can play well. He is a musician; he has good presence, too; he is a valiant man; and the Lord is with him'. That is the one; that is the one whom the Spirit of God brings before us. The Lord says, "I am the root and offspring of David", Revelation 22:16.

Well, now beloved, I am speaking of this because it is so important to understand "root", the idea of root, and to know what one may have sprung from, to make sure you are of that root. There are other roots, you know. There are roots of bitterness. We are enjoined to be rooted and founded in love"that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts, being rooted and founded in love" (Ephesians 3:17);

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but the primary root, all that is of God, is Christ, and that implies His divinity. The Lord would challenge His adversaries; it says, "And Jesus answering said as he was teaching in the temple, How do the scribes say that the Christ is son of David? for David himself said speaking in the Holy Spirit, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand until I put thine enemies as footstool of thy feet. David himself therefore calls him Lord, and whence is he his son?" (Mark 12:35 - 37). What a question that was! That is the question the Spirit of God is putting all the time. How is it He is Lord? Well, the secret of it is that Christ is a divine Person, and He is representative of all that is of God in this world, and if you have not sprung from that root you are out of the divine realm; you will be lost eternally unless you come on that root.

Well, now I want to show you how this prophetic word fits into our time, and how much the answer by Jehovah to Sennacherib includes the thoughts of Zion and Jerusalem. You might have assumed that if this conqueror Sennacherib is to be met, he must be met by an army equal to his, at least, but the first word is 'daughter', and women are not enlisted ordinarily in a military way. 'A daughter of Zion' -- what a word to all young sisters here! But then it is not merely a matter for sisters. It is a matter of a subjective result of principle. A subjective result is usually represented in women, on the feminine side. It implies that there is subjection, that there is affection, that there is tenderness. There can be no representation of Zion aside from subjection to God. The feminine result is always a company, the outcome of subjection. The principle is presented. Many christians are not accustomed much to the word 'principle', but it is a very fine word. I recall having heard a very remarkable incident recorded of a certain christian who was told, 'These people will

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tell you that the Bible is a book of principles'. 'Well', he said, 'that is a wonderful remark. I never heard it before. That is light to my soul; the Bible, a book of principles?' Yes, beloved friends, the Bible is a book of principles, and one of these principles is supplied by the word 'Zion'.

You cannot fit Zion into any human society. It is too big a concept for that. If you were to get all the so-called religious christian churches in the world together on the principle of amalgamation, the thought, the society, could not contain the idea of Zion. It is said there are three to four hundred millions of nominal christians; if they were united in a brotherhood, into a christian church, that would not be great enough for Zion; and yet, beloved friends, you may find the principle enshrined in a very small company of christians.

Now you take Jerusalem here. Rabshakeh asks Hezekiah for so many men; he to furnish the horses, if Hezekiah could man them. "And now engage, I pray thee, with my master the king of Assyria, and I will give thee two thousand horses, if thou be able on thy part to set riders upon them", Isaiah 36:8. I have no doubt that the answer would be that he could not man the horses that the Assyrians could supply. In other words, there was but a handful of people in Jerusalem at this time, and Sennacherib's army was one hundred and eighty-five thousand. That many were slain by one angel. But Zion was enshrined in Jerusalem. I am not speaking of the hill, the physical hill at all; it is a moral thought -- what God selected, what God chose. Think of the greatness of God, beloved friends, as you see Him in His creation. You look at the vastness of creation, and God looks around and He chooses something, a very small hill physically, but He says, I chose it.

God chose it. You have to think of the greatness of the Person whose choice it is, and then you will have

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some idea of the greatness of the choice. And then the next thing is, that choice is to be enshrined in our hearts. It is enshrined in the heart of every lover of God. The Lord has chosen Zion, we are told.

I have chosen it. I have desired it. "For Jehovah hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his dwelling This is my rest for ever; here will I dwell, for I have desired it", Psalm 132:13, 14. Solomon says, "Behold, the heavens, and the heaven of heavens, cannot contain thee", 1 Kings 8:27. But God says, 'I will dwell in Zion. There will I dwell. I have desired it'. He does not dwell in temples made with hands. Put them all together, beloved friends; they are large masses of stone and mortar, wonderful as men speak of them, but they would be no dwelling place for God.

He has not desired such a dwelling as that. "But the Most High dwells not in places made with hands; as says the prophet, The heaven is my throne and the earth the footstool of my feet", Acts 7:48, 49.

Where else could he dwell? Think of stone and mortar for such a God, and yet He dwells in Zion! Here will I dwell, I have desired it. It is enshrined in the hearts of those in Jerusalem, such as Hezekiah, Isaiah and many others.

And so the first word to this great victorious Assyrian is, The virgin-daughter of Zion despiseth thee, laugheth thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem shaketh her head at thee. The daughter of Zion indicates to us a people collectively formed in affection with that divine thought enshrined in their thoughts and hearts, and all the powers of evil cannot overcome that. As the Lord puts it in another way: "Hades' gates shall not prevail against it", Matthew 16:18. There is something there that is unconquerable because that is what the word 'virgin-daughter' means. It is a virgin state, an uncontaminated condition in the people of God, in whose hearts is enshrined the thought of divine dwelling; and so,

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beloved, our position is impregnable, if we can only take it in. There is no question here of military array, but it is a subjective side of things expressed in the virgin daughter of Zion. That is the great principle of divine dwelling, divine choice. Think of God, Creator of all things, having in His mind from the past eternity a dwelling in the affections of His people; that is really what is meant. He has chosen it; He desired it. "Here will I dwell". No Assyrian can take any advantage over such.

Now, beloved, what about this principle of God's sovereign selection? What about your heart? Has he the right of way in your heart? When He created the universe, He had the right of way. There was no opposition as far as we know; even if there had been, He would have brushed it aside. But now He desires your heart and mine. He desires them. "Here will I dwell". It is a question of sovereign selection. He would say to you tonight, I have selected your heart for my dwelling. It is the heart of the assembly that presents the full thought; then comes the word to us of the daughter, formed in affection, and tenderness and subjection, and rooted and grounded in love, so that the blessed Lord is there according to the desire of His heart. Could anything be greater? Could there be a greater appeal? Then it speaks of the daughter of Jerusalem; Jerusalem is a great city. There again you have the daughter. There is no question of an army. It is a question of daughters. A daughter of Jerusalem has intelligence in regard to the administration of things, carried on, it may be, by a few christians in an upper room. Such administration is publicly hardly known, but it is cherished and carried on, so that nothing contrary to the will of God is tolerated. You cannot be anywhere else. I warn you not to stay in any society where the will of God is not prevailing. Jerusalem is a city of great activity where the will of God prevails and

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where administration is effected. She is formed according to that. That brother is going to a care meeting, a meeting where divine principles are discussed and applied. It is one thing to have principles in your mind, and another thing to apply them and make them effective, to enforce them. That is Jerusalem. A daughter of Jerusalem represents all that, and she defies the Assyrian. She laughs at him so that our position, you see, is a question first of subjection and then of formation in affection.

It is well that we should have a sign, because God is very considerate of us. We have in verse 30

"This shall be the sign unto thee: there shall be eaten this year such as groweth of itself; and in the second year that which springeth of the same: but in the third year sow ye, and reap, and plant vineyards and eat the fruit thereof". Now this is the sign. It is right that you should look for a sign, but at the same time, the Lord did not cherish it very much, at times anyway. There were those who looked for a sign. He could always give a sign, but He did not always do so. People who look for signs are often not very reliable, but God furnishes the signs at times; He does here. I should not like to be asking the Lord for a sign. He says to the wicked generation: "A sign shall not be given to it but the sign of Jonas" (Luke 11:29), a very solemn matter, but here, the Lord proffers a sign, and what is it? 'Ye shall eat this year'. Well, that is a good thing. You have been hungry for a long time. If you told the truth, there is not much food where you have been. This certainly is a sign that speaks volumes. What shall ye eat this year? Well, it says, "such as groweth of itself". You say, Whatever does that mean -- "Such as groweth of itself"? Well, that is the first of Genesis. It is to bring us back, you see, to God, so that if you get any light in your soul you go back to the beginning of things and see how things

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happen. The earth came up out of the waters and it was to cause grass to spring up. Herbs and grass were to grow up out of the earth. It is a question of the power of God. Are you conversant with that? I see the grass coming up, as the sun begins to shine in March, April and May, and the flowers come out, and the earth is beautified. That light, where did it all come from? It came from God. It is not a question now of what man was, but what comes up out of the earth, that the earth is fertile. It is a work of God and it furnishes food for you. I do not know where you would be, but if you have not been where Zion is cherished, where Jerusalem is maintained, where there is room for the Spirit of God, you will be in Lodebar. That was where Mephibosheth was before he was brought to the table of David. You will be in Lodebar, the place of no pasture. It does not say that Mephibosheth was like the prodigal, that he sought to eat of the things of the swine. No, he was a lover of David and he found a place at David's table, but he had known what the place of no pasture was. Now you see, this is the sign. "There shall be eaten this year such as groweth of itself; and in the second year that which springeth of the same"; that is to say, what groweth of itself, has also a yield. It is a cumulative idea. You will always find that where God is working. One thing leads to another; one thing produces another. There is an energy of life here and it seems to be of God.

There is growth on growth, and I can eat. That is a sign, a very important sign. Well now, the next and third year is in planting, because you are getting it in your soul. You become intelligent. You get no planting until the second chapter of Genesis, and it was God that did it. God gives the lead in planting, and so Paul said he planted, and so should we begin to plant. The idea of planting is that you select Row; you make a selection of seed. You do not let

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your garden grow anything that may come up out of the ground. You may seek to raise a crop of potatoes, if you allow me to be simple, a crop of carrots, and a crop of cabbage, whatever it is that you need. You have intelligence; you know your needs. The saints begin to acquire intelligence in the third year as to what should be done. When God revived the truth a hundred years ago, there was a great deal of this first year and second year growth, but the third year growth is the result to the planting. They began to present the truth to the world and God gave increase; that is to say, the seed is put down, and the desired result of the sowing is God-given. God gives it a body as it tells you. We never shut God out, but He loves to see skill in His work. How God loved to see Paul planting! How he planted at Corinth, but he would clear the ground for those worldlings, and as they were converted, so the word of God could work effectively in them that there should be a proper crop, and then Apollos watered. There is skill in the watering, too. He would not give too much water; then it says, "God gave the increase". That was the third year. The very heart is appealed to in the idea of planting in the third year, for it says, "sow ye, and reap, and plant vineyards and eat the fruit thereof". Now a garden is for a special purpose. You will remember how Ahab wanted the garden of Naboth, the Jizreelite. He said he wanted it. It was near to his house. "And Ahab spoke to Naboth saying, Give me thy vineyard, that I may have it for a garden of herbs, for it is near, by the side of my house", 1 Kings 21:2. Well, that is the idea. He was going to plant something, but then, as I said, God planted a garden eastward in Eden. Would that one could get the idea of divine workmanship that it is special! In Genesis 1 some great feature of the creation came to being, but in chapter 2 it is a specialty. Man is a specialty in chapter 2; he fits

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in with what is in chapter 1, and Eve is a specialty, and the garden is a specialty. Eden was like a great big farm and the garden was a specialty, and Adam was set over it to dress it and keep it. Well, now you see, that is the idea here. In the third year we become specialists, so to speak, and we have desires and designs according to God, to get a certain result, and hence we plant a certain seed and it produces fruit to God. You would not wish anything else. The very seed that I put down, I have a little idea of it, but God has a much greater idea of it. God understands the words I am speaking tonight better than I do, and He gives the result Himself, as it takes form in your heart.

It goes on in verse 31 to speak of the remnant "And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward; for out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and out of mount Zion they that escape the zeal of Jehovah of hosts shall do this". Now you see, we become the remnant. We are in remnant days. Isaiah makes a great deal of the remnant, and it comes in here in the most striking manner that in the planting of the third year, that remnant is a specialty. It is a beautiful thing. It is just like the original. It is the same thing in spite of the most awful declension and therefore it is a wonderful product of the faithfulness of God. That is what a remnant is, and so it says it takes root downward. You will never be anything if you do not take root downward; you will never be anything in the testimony. If it is merely a question of the head and intelligence, that will pass away. You want to get at the root and then to bear fruit upward, and then as I just read, "For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and out of mount Zion they that escape". Now you see the moving. I have no doubt that this remnant in the future will be clothed with all the

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thoughts of God as regards Israel as revived. He will clothe it with all His thoughts. God develops in this remnant greater things than Solomon's kingdom, and so it is with ourselves. The latter glory of the house is said to be greater than the former. We are going into the greatest possible things. There is continuity in the movement. So God would have us to be intelligent, beloved friends, that we may understand these principles, and how they form us and how we are displayed in the remnant and are then clothed with all divine thoughts in relation to Christ. Israel is restored in Christ. In chapter 60 we have: "Arise, shine! for thy light is come, and the glory of Jehovah is risen upon thee". That very same word is applied to christians in the epistle to the Ephesians: "Wake up, thou that sleepest, and arise up from among the dead, and the Christ shall shine upon thee", Ephesians 5:14.

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INFLUENCE

John 1:38 - 42; John 4:28 - 30; John 11:19 - 35

These scriptures, dear brethren, are as well known perhaps as any, and better than most. They are very familiar among the saints, but they wear wonderfully well and yield always, and what I desire to deduce from them in this service, is the idea of influence. It is an idea that is prominent in John's gospel, and one which is of immense importance, both physically and spiritually. It is one of the leading principles of the physical universe, and it is well always to remember in regard of the things that are made, that in them the invisible things of God are clearly seen or apprehended by the mind, and so they become instructive, immensely so. They were always intended to be instructive, but those of us who know God in redemption, and who have the Spirit, understand them best. They were intended from the outset to be a lesson book, a witness indeed, so that the psalmist from whom we get the most intelligent touches in the Old Testament alludes to this, referring especially to the heavens, saying that they "declare the glory of God" (Psalm 19:1), a strong thought -- they "declare", similar to John 1:18, in which we read that "The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". The idea is that God is brought out to us, brought within the range of our intelligence. Some think that what has happened is that the veil has been drawn aside, and the creature looks in to whatever existed in the Deity, which would make the creature equal, we might say equal to God, as if he could look at God in His infinite essence and relations; the very verse I have cited says explicitly that no one has seen Him at any time. It is not that no one had

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seen Him, but no one has seen Him; and John wrote that verse long after the Lord Jesus was here and had gone back into heaven. No one has seen Him at any time. Then he adds, "The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him"; the idea is that He is brought out so that He is to be apprehended by men, and even by angels, for it is said of them that the incarnation enabled them to see God, "seen of angels", as if it were only then they saw God; they are creatures.

Well now, I only touch on that because of the word "declare", the idea of declaration in the heavens. They "declare the glory of God", a very great fact. We look at them constantly. They "declare the glory of God; and the expanse sheweth the work of his hands. Day unto day uttereth speech". It is not casual. The word "uttereth" is a strong word. It is the idea of something gushing out, indicating the fulness and testimony in the heavenly bodies. "And night unto night sheweth knowledge". That is another strong word. The thing is shown. It is there to be read by anyone who has eyes to see. And then the psalmist adds, "In them hath he set a tent for the sun, And he is as a bridegroom going forth from his chamber; he rejoiceth as a strong man to run the race", a beautiful figure of Christ. But there it is in the Psalms all these centuries, thousands of years; there He is day after day, a beautiful figure, bringing in what is most interesting about man, a bridegroom or a bride, "He is as a bridegroom going forth from his chamber". How much we can read into that, dear friends, as to Christ! Then there is the strength, the energy: "He rejoiceth as a strong man to run the race. His going forth is from the end of the heavens, and his circuit unto the ends of it; and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof". There is that which is to be seen and that which is to be felt in the testimony of God. And then we have the

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further thought: "There is no speech, and there are no words", that is to say, what we call language. There is a language, "uttereth speech", but there are no ordinary words in it. And yet the psalmist says, "Their voice is heard"; so someone hears it, this powerful influence that is set in the heavens as a witness for God. Then on the other hand we have the idea of influence on earth, in rivers, oceans, seas, lakes and mountains; all are influential, trees, forests, but particularly rivers, because of their motion. They become peculiarly suggestive of the presence of the Holy Spirit. So we have right throughout the Scripture, the idea of a great influence for good in rivers, and what is the most suggestive and interesting of all is that one of them, a river, went out of Eden, and went out for an express purpose. It was not a mere accident; it was to water the garden. From this it is parted, we are told, into four heads or main streams, and then the names are given. Of one of them it is said that it surrounds a good land, "And the gold of that land is good". Is that a mere accident that that should be mentioned? No! It is spiritual, it is the flow, and the action of this great influence on earth that brings the gold to light. We often wonder why it is that Asia has not yielded so much for God; Africa has not yielded so much for God. These countries will yield for God, but for the moment it is the West, and God has directed the course of the stream with the utmost intelligence and precision, so that "The gold of that land is good". What He needs for the assembly, the mighty movements of the Spirit through ministry, the river of God's grace, as Paul says, "From Jerusalem", not towards China; there is nothing much to indicate that there was anything in that direction; but "from Jerusalem ... round to Illyricum", that is to say, from Jerusalem through Asia Minor, Macedonia, Greece and the

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countries now called Austria and Hungary, to the Adriatic, he says, I "have fully preached the glad tidings of the Christ". "The gold of that land is good"; wonderful results were brought out for Go. The bdellium was there too. The Spirit of God says 'What fragrance for God!' God knows where to work. The whole field is there; Christ has bought the field, and He knows the part of it to work. He will take up another part later. We cannot assume that any part of the field is useless; God will work it. But the four rivers, the four heads, the influence in them brings out what is there. There is only one mentioned in that respect; what the other three mean will doubtless come into evidence, but in the meanwhile, "The gold of that land is good". We want to be there, dear brethren. There is gold and gold. It will be remembered that David, in supplying for the house, furnished a hundred thousand talents of gold without saying what quality it was; it was gold and would be useful today for the nations. A very large sum, but he says later, in his affection he had provided other gold, the best kind of gold (1 Chronicles 29:3, 4). In his affliction he had provided, he says, a hundred thousand talents of gold (1 Chronicles 22:14), in his affliction through his suffering; but in his affection for the house he provided what is specially refined. It is an important matter, because the principal of refinement enters into the assembly peculiarly, and so we are enjoined to "approve the things that are more excellent" (Philippians 1:10); excellent things are to be shown, but it is the "more excellent" that enter into the assembly.

Well now, having said all that, I want to show the simple evidence of it in John's gospel, and I may say here that I and others have often remarked that John is astronomical in his forms of expression; not that he deals exactly with heavenly bodies as bodies, but as he speaks of Christ it is not a question with

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him whether Christ is in heaven or on earth. He is the same Christ, He is the same Person. On earth, He says, "I am". If He had said that a million years before, what would He say today? It would be the same, "I am". He is the same Person and He has the same mighty attraction on earth that He had in heaven, and I wanted to show from the first passage how that attractiveness of Christ is seen, because it is the initial idea. He has been standing in the earlier part of the chapter. John says, "In the midst of you stands, whom ye do not know", referring to Jesus before He entered on His service. He says, "He ... is preferred before me, for he was before me", John 1:15. Were human appraisements applied, they certainly would have appreciated John as of more value than Jesus at that time, for Jesus had done nothing and John had done much, but John says, "He ... is preferred before me". He sets forth the great fact without saying who preferred Him. What is the secret? "He was before me". John makes much of the Person, and so he begins with the well-known fundamental statement, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God", John 1:1. So that there is no mistake as to the Person that is before him. And John says, "He was before me", "He ... is preferred before me", meaning that someone liked Him better than John. I hope we all do, great and blessed as John was, and great as was the Lord's own tribute to him -- 'The greatest born of women'. I need not remark, dear brethren, who the Person was: "The Father loveth the Son". Jesus was the Person. The names He had or name, if He had any, is another matter, but the Person remains unchanged and unchangeable; the clear testimony is that He was liked better than John the baptist, even before He began to serve; and I hope He is liked better by

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every one of us here, better than any man that ever walked this earth. "He ... is preferred before me", John says. And then Jesus comes into view. John sees the Holy Spirit coming down and resting upon Him, and he says, "I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God". You are told here, as John the evangelist said earlier, "We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father"; that is what they saw. They saw that through His becoming flesh, "the Word became flesh". No one, no creature, could see It before. We can see It as Man. No one has seen God, and He was in the form of God before; now He is in the form of man, and He is seen as the only-begotten with the Father. Let us not intrude in the things we have not seen, dear brethren, and say that we can see that that is what has existed. It is the Man they saw, the Person unchanged, unchangeable, but now within their range, so that they can see Him. Let us rest in this. It is wonderful to my mind. "We have contemplated his glory". Does Scripture ever say that anyone ever contemplated Him in His relation with the Father before? No, Scripture does not say it, and anyone that says it is going beyond Scripture. But now John is standing, having seen the Spirit coming down and abiding on Him. Having seen this, John testifies to it, and now he stands, and Jesus is moving, the most delightful movement ever seen under heaven or in heaven. And John says, "Behold the Lamb of God", and the two disciples that heard him speak followed Jesus. There was the attraction. He was moving. Was not the freshness and vigour and strength of the strong man coming forth from his chamber as a bridegroom seen there? Yes, it was seen there in those movements. They were attractive to John the baptist, and the Person became attractive to the two disciples, so that they followed. Well now, that is what I have in mind in that passage.

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They followed, and Jesus saw them following; that is the point; I am moving as attracted. When He saw them following, He says, "What seek ye?" and they say, "Rabbi" (which is to say, Teacher). They need to be taught. They felt that, as we all ought to do. We need to be taught in these great things from the beginning, so that they say, "Rabbi ... . where abidest thou?" Andrew comes under the influence of the Lord and he goes and seeks his brother; that is, he moves under influence. That is what makes the evangelist. The evangelist really moves under influence, and that gives him power.

These same remarks apply to the passage in John 4. The woman is also, as I said, in a well-known passage, but she had been listening to Christ, and she leaves her waterpot. She had brought it out to fill it with water, but she leaves it; she understood the Lord had been talking to her about water in herself, that is the idea of a spring. "The water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up". Well, she grasped the thought, and I want you to grasp it, dear brethren, because if we do not we shall not be influential. Proverbs urges us to drink water from our own cisterns, to be independent of men. John 4 makes us independent of all the religious systems around us; there is deliverance. I may go with my can and fill it, but that does not affect me. I am the vessel myself. I carry with me a fountain of living water, which makes me independent. That is what I call deliverance from the religious systems around that man has instituted. She caught the thought, and left the material waterpot, and went her way to the city and said, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done, is not he the Christ?" and they came to Jesus.

She influenced them. Sometimes we hear of sisters coming to our meeting, and sometimes one feels for them, because they cannot answer the brothers in the

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meeting, but it is well to bring forward what Scripture says about what is available to sisters. Now, here is a remarkable illustration of what one person may be as an influence, not as a preacher; there is no idea of gift or ability in the woman to preach, but she has influence on others. Of course she spoke. It was not a question of preaching or teaching, but of saying certain things that were true, and this particular woman stated facts, which means that she was different from what she was. I cannot influence people for good if I am just natural, if I am just what I always was. Many of us are that. We do not change our character because we have come into fellowship. If I continue what I always was, I do not influence people for good. But there was a change in this woman, a manifest change, and that was the secret of her power. She went to the men and they were affected for good; they were affected towards Jesus, that is the principle. All the lesser bodies point to the sun; that is the principle; they guide in that way. They that turn many to righteousness shall shine as the stars (Daniel 12:3), that is the idea: "turn many to righteousness". If I turn a person to righteousness, I turn him towards Jesus, like a star. Well now, I pass on to chapter 11, which was what I had principally before me; it is a most interesting passage, and illustrates better than any I know of, what I am speaking of, and again it is a question of a sister or two sisters, showing what sisters can be, and brothers, of course, or believers. What is so striking about this particular passage of Scripture is that Lazarus, as we have remarked, is never said to have said anything to anybody, and yet he is the one on account of whom many believed on Jesus. You see the influence of the man, the effect of the presence of such a man in the community; that is the idea. On account of him, many believed on Jesus. Not on account of a word that he ever taught or spoke, it is

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the man or the person, what he was. Well now, you see this in these two women. The Lord comes, we are told. The chapter is full of interest from the beginning, every word is full of interest. The most touching thing is that Lazarus is always on the horizon throughout this section, he is always on the Lord's horizon. So, the first time He came -- Lazarus; the second time He came where Lazarus was. He is always on the horizon. He is a wonderful character in Scripture, a risen man, a man who had been dead but who had been raised, the Lord has him in His mind. It says, "Many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother". But Jesus had come after Lazarus had been in the grave four days already (verse 17). We are told that the distance from Jerusalem to Bethany is fifteen furlongs. "Many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother". Now, I want you to notice, dear brethren, that these Jews are important at this time. It is because of them that t am enabled to bring this subject into the chapter. They had come to comfort Mary and Martha. It goes on to say, "Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him: but Mary sat still in the house". Now, what I want to point out, dear brethren, is they come to comfort Mary and Martha both, but when Martha moved, nobody moved with her, she goes alone. Now, some of us complain that we are left alone, perhaps not visited, and why is it? When Mary moves, the Jews move, she does not go alone. Now, there is some reason for this. The reason is obvious, that Mary was spiritual, she was more spiritual than Martha, she had more influence than Martha, and that is the point. So that you see, beloved, it is not a question of the number of persons in a meeting, it is a question of influence.

What power is there in the meeting? It is not that anyone in the meeting, if he or she is a true believer,

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is not taken account of. The Lord takes account of the smallest item of the work of God. He must do that. John speaks of Nicodemus, he is the only one that does, and in this very chapter he records that Thomas said, "Let us also go". There is not much in Thomas' favour, but John does not leave anything out. He omits nothing. So that I speak thus for the comfort of everybody, that whatever my stature spiritually is, the Lord takes account of it. Even if there be only a seed in me, He takes account of it. These Jews, I have said, began to move, but then He takes account of the spiritual, and nobody will mistake that they are influential, because that is the point, you see. What influence can I exert as a spiritual brother? As a river, what influence is it exerting? And John brings in that side. He brings in the fountain, and he brings in rivers. In chapter 7 he has that in mind.

Well now, here Martha moves, and what has she got to say? "Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died", that is to say, she believed the Lord could keep her brother alive, which is always something, and moreover she believed that if He asked of God, God would do anything He asked. That was about the extent of Martha's knowledge of Jesus, that He could have kept her brother alive, and that God would do anything He asked Him. That was her intelligent apprehension of Jesus. It was not very much, you say, but it was something, maybe as much as most of us, because you know what we say about Jesus has been said before. It was not so with her. There was not a scripture written for Martha to read except the Old Testament, yet she spoke, so that what she knew about Jesus was what she gathered up, and that is really all that matters. Is she capable of more? She is ready to learn. Would to God that all our sisters would listen more and learn. Jesus says, "Every one who lives and

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believes on me shall never die". Think of that! He says, "I am the resurrection", not 'I will be', but "I am the resurrection and the life: he that believes on me ... shall live". Is Martha capable of taking that in? Yes, she is. Oh, beloved brethren, let us become teachable! That is the great point with John. The first Pharisees call Him a teacher, showing that that is the point, that we might be instructed spiritually. She is capable of instruction. She has not stopped growing. Martha is not going to be a stinted believer. She was a very quarrelsome sort of person, but she is going to be changed, she is going to be formed. The next chapter shows that she is changed. Yes, she says, "I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, who should come into the world". What a flood of light came into her soul! Were we there, we would see her countenance change. She never had such a flood of light, not that she had not come into contact with Jesus, but now she is ready for more light, and God gives it to her. "Lord; I believe thou art the Christ, the Son of God, who should come into the world". She said no more. She left Him and went off to her sister. It is a very beautiful touch. She called her sister secretly, not to say, 'The Lord has met me, and I know more than you do'. No, that is not the idea at all, it is a question of the sister and the influence. "The teacher is come and calls thee". She makes nothing of herself. Were she thinking of herself, she would stay there and have the glory of meeting the Lord first, and being with the Lord all the time; but she goes for her sister. That is very beautiful. We must think of our sisters. We do not want to leave our sisters behind. Bring our sisters along. If I have got a bit of light, I never conserve it; I may say frankly, I give it to the brethren. You can get more if you do, because the resources are infinite. She got light and she was affected by it, and she wanted to bring her

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sister into it. It does not say the Lord told her to do it -- "The teacher is come and calls thee". What a mission from one sister to another! John is full of this. The greatest message that ever was carried, was carried by Mary Magdalene to the brethren. It was just carried. She did not teach or preach; just told the brethren she had seen the Lord, and He had said these things to her. And so Mary rose up at once; she had sat still in the house, but the Lord did not go there. Sometimes we assume to be spiritual, and the Lord does not respect us. He does not seem to respect her; He did not go there. Martha would move without a call. The Lord says virtually, 'I am not going from here'. He respects Martha. Mary has to come to that spot. Well, that is wholesome for Mary. She has to come to the spot where Martha met the Lord, she will never forget that. I think that is the meeting ground publicly. The meeting ground publicly is not a question of the most spiritual person. The least in the assembly is recognised from the public standpoint. When it is a question of approach to God, then spirituality will tell, priestly power will tell, but the apostle says, "Is there not a wise person among you?" if it be to settle matters. So that in the public body, the least in the assembly is not set aside. Every brother ought to be at the care meeting, for instance, because everyone is to tell in the public body, and that is the ground of John 11. The Lord stayed where Martha met Him; that is the position, and the most spiritual comes there; then we soon see the difference. We need not flatter ourselves if we are not spiritual, if we are simple, and we do not understand what is said, but you see Martha did not say that. She believed that Jesus is the Son of God. She is ready for the greatest thing, and while the Lord takes account of the smallest measure, He honours the great measure, so that when Mary moves, the Jews move with her.

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Now you see there is a difference. Anyone can see the difference between the two sisters publicly. Martha has no followers; nobody moves as she moves; but as Mary moves, the Jews move, and what the most remarkable thing of all is, when the Lord saw Mary weeping, and the Jews weeping, He wept. Would you believe it that He was actually influenced by what He saw? The Lord puts Himself in that position, in the position of a servant, and He takes account of what happens, whilst knowing all things divinely. He is here in perfect humanity. Mary wept and the Jews wept. He groans. It is when He saw these things, not before. He did not weep or groan when He saw Martha, but when He saw Mary weeping and the Jews weeping, He groaned; that is Jesus. He is capable of being affected, dear brethren, by what He sees in us, by great spiritual ability. He is touched by it: "Jesus wept". That is the most remarkable statement in Scripture, and it is the outcome of what I am speaking, of the movement of a spiritual sister. It does not say the Jews were believers; the point is they were influenced by Mary. The Lord takes account of any person I influence. If we are moved to come to this meeting, the Lord takes account of that. It touches Him. It is the reflection of Himself. He influences and I influence, because I am under His influence. The influence spreads. If you have come here tonight under influence, it is the spread of influence, and that is what makes meetings effective, the spread of influence. So that, as I said, when He saw her weeping, and the Jews weeping, He groaned in spirit, and Jesus wept.

Well, that is all, dear brethren. There is much more to be said on the effect of the influence the Lord would bring about in us. If we have His influence, we influence others, and that is how the work of God proceeds.

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THE WILDERNESS

Exodus 16:1 - 36

J.T. This section is very interesting for young Christians. God does not disguise from us as young Christians that it is wilderness. We have the wilderness in chapter 15:22, and then several times here, the wilderness of Sin. And then the manna was on it. It is God, I think, reminding us at the outset, that He knows that it is wilderness, and even although we may murmur, He will not discipline us because of it immediately. They murmured every moment. They murmured in the wilderness of Shur at Marah. And when they were led into the wilderness of Sin they murmured again. In the next chapter they are led to move again to Rephidim, and they murmured.

R.S. Still the Lord did not give them up.

J.T. No, nor would He even discipline them there yet. It is to remind us that He is very patient with us at the very beginning.

R.S. What would be the idea of leaving Elim and the seventy palm trees and twelve springs of water and going into the wilderness? There was perfect provision there for them. Would that be the test?

J.T. That is the idea. The wilderness is the place of testing, so that it was one movement to another. Numbers 33 tells us the number of movements. God writes them down after they are all over, showing how interested He is in every movement; He is taking notice of it. It is a question of how we take it. When God moves, it is a question of how we take it, whether we murmur, or if we take it and see His love in it. There is something in it for us, if we submit to it.

H.H. Do you think that there is the tendency to get settled down when we get the twelve springs of

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water and seventy palm trees? Very nice provision, but then that is not God's objective, is it?

J.T. It is one of the encampments. There are a great many encampments and each one has some phase of the character of God to be learned. It is important, therefore, to be subject. God may move suddenly, He may order a sudden movement, and if we are not ready we are sure to murmur. Some phase of the truth may be called attention to, and we are not ready for it. If we had been walking with God, we would be ready. We have in Malachi that the Lord will suddenly come to His temple, and we do not want to be taken by surprise.

H.H. So that all our wilderness circumstances call forth constant exercises and preparation for movement and adjustment.

J.T. That is the idea of it. That is the point in the wilderness. It is God showing at the end that He takes account of every movement. It is His love, taking account of every movement. So God takes account of what we might have thought a very commonplace thing. So that you have in the Canticles the idea of the footsteps of the flock. That shows they are moving. They were stationary, of course; they delayed. In some encampments they were a long time, but the general thought is movement. They were all taught that the furniture of the tabernacle was not to be permanently resting in the wilderness. It was to be carried. Notice here, they came into the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, two remarkable positions: the one where God provides refreshment, and the other where He opens up His mind. The encampment at Sinai was a great one, there God opened up His mind. It was the mountain of Jehovah, although in the wilderness; it was God's mountain, that is, Horeb, therefore a wonderful place of learning. But their position here was between the two. They had not as yet come to

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Sinai. We get the position at Sinai later. It says in chapter 19, "The same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai" (verse 1). That is an important point, but here they are between Elim and Sinai. It is an intermediate position, between two very important ones; how are we going to behave in it?

F.C. Is that why the Spirit of God records the time -- the fifteenth day of the second month?

J.T. Well, I think it is just as we have been saying, that it is His love taking notice of the movement and the actual time of it. So that not only our names, but our very movements, day by day, are all written in His book. If we kept a diary, we could not do it any better. Very often there enters into diaries the big "I". Self always enters into diaries, but when God is keeping the diary, it is His love. What happened on this day? Job cursed his day. Think of a man cursing his day, when you think of all that God could be to you on that day. Every day marks something in God's calendar. His calendar is full of precious records; records of His work of grace towards us, operations in us, that the divine nature may be in us. So that we do not want to curse any day, or think any day worse than any other. If it is not better for me, it is better for somebody else. Every day is better. God is operating in a wide field.

H.H. Is it from this point, between Elim and Sinai, that all the grace and love and care of God comes out towards them, in spite of their murmurings and breakdowns? He does not raise a question with them, does He?

J.T. No, it is the children's period. I mean, not the period in the sense of being dwarfed, but as they begin. He alludes to it in Hosea -- "When Israel was a child, then I loved him", Hosea 11:1. This is the time of childhood, when the children are always attractive. "I it was that taught Ephraim to walk, --

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He took them upon his arms, -- but they knew not that I healed them. I drew them with bands of a man, with cords of love; and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I gently caused them to eat", Hosea 11:3, 4. I think that is this chapter. There is gentleness, there is nothing harsh. "I caused them to eat". They ate flesh in the evening and bread in the morning.

H.H. He never forgets the first movements of love towards Him.

J.T. No, that is the point, I think. He does not forget. So, as we were saying, even although we do not read His diary, so to speak, He reads it. He goes over the ground. It is the working out of His own nature in us. We have here the mediatorial service of both Moses and Aaron. We shall come to that in the middle of the chapter, where Aaron speaks to them. They look towards the wilderness. That is the voice of a man. They know Aaron's voice; Moses does not speak. They were going back into Egypt, but Aaron spoke to them and then they looked towards the wilderness. That is, we will accept God's mind. That is the bands of a man typically, the sympathies of Christ, the voice of Christ, that diverts us towards the wilderness, from going back into the world.

A.G. It is a good thing to be in line with the mind of God for the moment. If that is not so, we begin to murmur at any move following fresh light.

J.T. Exactly, that is what you get here.

J.S. So your thought is, that as the people take their journeyings up to Elim and then to Sinai, with all the grace that God has upon His people, this should be the way of instructing them and teaching them, that they might answer to His mind in Sinai.

J.T. That is right. They become accustomed to His grace, and in chapter 19 He proposes, 'Will you enter into a covenant with Me' -- with such a God

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the God thou hast found. That is chapter 19, the relation when God would betroth them to Himself in love. In the meantime they were learning Him in grace. "I have ... brought you to myself".

R.S. You would say it would have a very sobering effect upon us if we took account of the fact that God was to keep in His diary every action we do, every word we speak, every movement we make? He is taking account of it all, in the way of education.

J.T. Quite. Then He later records these in the prophets and in the Psalms; you have the indication of how God goes back over the ground. Think of Him teaching them of His nature, gently causing them to eat; there is no harshness. They are not forced here as in Numbers. There is discipline in this connection, but not here; there is no discipline here.

H.H. Would this food build up the constitution in view of the wilderness exercises?

J.T. Well, I thought that; and God begins to deal with us on the principle of measure, that although we are in the younger stage here, He has got His own mind. There is only one measure for every person. The children are not taken account of as such, they get the same amount as a man. That is the mind of God for us. Children do not want to remain children; you will notice how a child wants to reckon up his years. Well, God says, if you want to be a man, that is My mind for you, "That we may be no longer babes", Ephesians 4:14. The measure is an omer. The measure for Moses is the same as for the child; the same measure laid up before the testimony. It is the mind of God, showing that He has got great thoughts about us. We are not going to be babes, we are going to be men, and great men, no less than Christ, because He is before the testimony.

H.H. I was just thinking that all His thoughts for us were set out in Christ for us in that way.

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Nothing short of what is in the mind of God is set out in Christ.

J.T. Yes. He has got no less a thought for us or any young brother or sister here. God says, if you want to be a man, that is My mind for you, and too, I am going to feed you; you are going to have an omer every day, an omer for a person, even though that person is a month old. That is His mind.

W.C. There would be no growth by the flesh-pots of Egypt. He says, "I ... caused them to eat". Here, they wanted to go back to the flesh-pots of Egypt.

J.T. Quite. God had better food for them than that. That is what the flesh lives on. It will never develop a man according to God. The world dishes up varied things, strong smelling, tasty things; theatres and things like that. That is not going to make a man of us according to God.

J.S. God believes in giving in abundance. It is the abundance of His grace towards His people, in order that their hearts might be attracted to Himself. Manna was raining down from heaven. I suppose as we eat manna, we become like heaven.

J.T. Yes, that is the idea. Raining denotes abundance, and yet it all went away if you did not get it in the morning; there is nothing afterwards. If you gather a ton of it, you will only have an omer after you are finished. "He that gathered much had nothing over". That is the idea of it. It is a mysterious thing. No matter how much you gather, you have nothing over, and you gather only what you eat. You cannot have Christ in that sense and lay Him up on your bookshelf.

G.T. Would one appropriate more than another?

J.T. That might be.

G.T. They gathered every man according to the measure of his eating.

J.T. Yes, that would be his house, but an omer

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for a person. As was said in chapter 12, the head of the house would gather, but if he gathered much, he had nothing over.

P.M. So that your measure is according as you feed on Christ.

J.T. That is your measure. You know you have not anything more than what you eat.

H.H. It is interesting that you gather in the morning. Do you think there is a principle underlying that?

J.T. I think there is. It is a question of the clearness of your mind, I mean spiritually. You get this food when you are at your best, you know, not when you are fagged out with your daily toil. It is before you enter on your daily toil. That is when you will take in Christ, in the clearness of your mind and affections.

H.H. It is because we are tested, are we not, all through the day? I have often thought we are governed by how we take up the commencement of the day. If it is a gathering of the manna, feeding upon Christ in that way, and desiring to come out in His features, we must start that way. It is no use starting it overnight.

J.T. No. It is a remarkable kind of lesson. It is intensely spiritual. When we begin really to get spiritual understanding, then we come to God as a God of measure. He has definite thoughts about us. Because He is a God of measure, His counsels are all on that principle. So that this chapter teaches us that if we have to do with God, He causes us to eat gently, but He has His own thoughts, His own lessons, and He is going to bring me to that.

G.T. What is indicated by the breeding of worms if it was left over?

J.T. It is just the efforts of will and disregarding the mind of God. It is corruption. "For he that sows to his own flesh, shall reap corruption", Galatians 6:8.

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When they gathered it on the sixth day it did not. It is a question of the will of God.

J.S. As we feed upon the manna, how does it affect us?

J.T. Well, I think it is to do the will of God; it is that kind of food. It is a question of the will displaced. There are three great features of food: the passover, the manna and the old corn. These are the three great features for the people. In addition to that there is the shewbread for the priests, but the manna for the wilderness. It falls in the morning after the passover; that shows it is only for the wilderness. It applies to that phase of my position. The passover is a question of my getting out of the world. It does not finish; we have it in the wilderness, too. It is the sufferings of Christ, the unmitigated sufferings of Christ. There is no suffering in the manna. It is Christ here where I am, a Man in the flesh in His everyday life. We forget that He had an everyday life. If there was something to be built, the Lord would do it, the One who serves, though He was in the middle of the twelve, He would do anything that might have to be done. He did not speak as a sacerdotal kind of person, He did the thing.

R.S. He never moved outside the will of God. He was a perfect Man in that way. So I suppose if we begin to feed on the perfect Man in the morning, it has an effect upon us, and gives us the impression that we cannot do what we like. If we feed on Him, we will be like Him.

J.T. Quite so. What would you see if you were living in Capernaum next door to the Lord? It says He was living in Capernaum; I do not know whether it was in a hired house or not, but it says He dwelt there. That is the way to get the spiritual thought; what would you see in the morning? You would note what He did too. He might go for water. We

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must get into our minds a real Man down here, in everyday circumstances. He was wearied at one time. So that if you saw Him in Capernaum, how would He act? I heard of a servant of the Lord who got up and read his Bible very early in the morning. A maid in the house opposite noticed him at the window; she got up early, too. It led to her conversion.

W.M. That was good. I was thinking, that in learning of Christ in the morning, Christ once humbled here, we would be something like Him, moving on through the day.

J.T. That is the idea. How would He do things? We learn by the Spirit, because the Spirit brings to the remembrance. Christ was here as Man. They were acquainted with His mother Mary. John took her to his own home, and think of the treasure he had in his home! Think how much she could tell about Jesus! What Mary had belonged to the assembly. What treasure there was in the knowledge she had of Jesus!

A.G. Is that the home he took her to?

J.T. Oh no, it was his own home. I think he had a home of his own. Scripture is very simple. Peter had a wife, Scripture tells us. "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking", Matthew 11:19; Jesus was found in figure as a Man; He was as an ordinary man. It is not anything spectacular; He was found as a man, just a man, that is the wonderful thing to get at, the life of Jesus.

H.H. His disciples were not always together with Him, because there is a point when Jesus went to the mount of Olives, and the disciples went to their own homes.

J.T. The first disciple's home He came into is characteristic. Mark tells us it was the house of Simon and Andrew. Simon was married, and his

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wife's mother was in the house. That is to say, there were two brothers and one was married, and his mother-in-law was living with them. That was the situation in that house. It was a difficult situation, but the Lord entered into that house and put it right. The houses must be right if the service is to go on.

J.S. And as we are feeding upon the manna so gathered, just as you were saying, speaking about the Lord Jesus, every day we see something fresh in His movements. Every day there is something more attractive about that Person. So, as we feed upon the manna, those features of Christ will be seen in every one of us expressly.

J.T. And that is the reason that the Lord's mother has such a place, because she was so conversant with His ordinary movements. She "kept all these things in her heart". Just as Jacob of old kept the saying of Joseph; perhaps he did not understand it, but he kept it.

F.C. What is the import of eating flesh in the evening?

J.T. Well, it may be a sort of general allusion to the wilderness position. The flesh in the evening would be perhaps the death of Christ. We take it as a sort of figure. The bread in the morning would be what we have every day. In building up a constitution there is a penalty attached to the flesh; it comes in here.

A.G. One would prepare for the other, would it, as one would appropriate the death of Christ?

J.T. Well, yes, if you say it in that way, I think so.

J.S. Would you just tell us how the eating of the flesh in the evening and the bread in the morning would affect us? How would it work out?

J.T. Well, it would remind us of the passover; they had the passover that way, in the evening. They would understand something of that. The

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passover had its place in the wilderness, but I think the lesson learned would point to our appropriation of Christ in His death; the manna is that which sustains us in the wilderness.

A.G. What is the idea of the dew? The dew fell first, before the manna.

J.T. Well, I think it is the influence of grace upon your spirit, preparing us for this great thing. We would not value it otherwise. Those who do not appreciate grace, do not value the life of Jesus. This section is full of the influence of grace.

A.G. One brother has said that if you waken up in the morning and your first thoughts are about the Lord, it is evident that the Lord has been watering you with the dew. Is that right?

J.T. Yes, that is right. It is the effect of grace, something that comes down without any action on your part.

G.T. I suppose we must know Him as a living Man, where He is with the heavenly grace, before we can appropriate Him here.

J.T. Quite so. John says, "grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ", John 1:17. It is the volume. "Of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace" (verse 16). One wave after another comes into your soul, and I believe it is that that prepares for the manna in your soul.

J.S. It only fell on the camp. Does that suggest divine territory?

J.T. What does it say? "In the morning the dew lay round the camp. And when the dew that lay round it was gone up, behold, on the face of the wilderness there was something fine, granular, fine as hoar-frost, on the ground". That is the idea, I think, divine territory, as you say.

W.M. It is very sweet to wake up in the morning with thoughts of the Lord in your heart, and then you begin to meditate upon Him; that is, the

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thoughts put there are like the dew; they are not of your own choosing; you wake up with them fresh.

R.S. So the dew has a great meaning in the divine system. "As the dew of Hermon that descendeth on the mountains of Zion; for there hath Jehovah commanded the blessing, life for evermore", Psalm 133:3.

J.T. Yes, a great meaning. It is something that comes down. There is a beautiful touch in it, I think. It comes down without any action on your part; it is wonderful. It comes down quietly and refreshes; without your power, "round the camp". Then the idea of the manna seems wider than that, it was on "the face of the wilderness".

F.H. In regard to the measure, would you say that God's thought would be equality? We get in 2 Corinthians 8, that there would be equality.

J.T. Yes, quite so. That equality is that Christ is the standard of it. It is not a democratic thing. It is a very elevated thought.

H.H. Does it suggest too, a constant appreciation of Christ in this way, on our side? So that if we are to get the dew in the morning, and if our thoughts are to be of Him at the commencement, there must be that formation as a result, of feeding on Christ, on the manna, in that way.

J.T. Quite, this is alluding to the Jews. It is very interesting and important; it is the sense of grace. We should look for a sense of grace and maintain it. The Scripture abounds with the idea of maintaining the sense of grace, and John, in recording the advent of Christ here, enlarges upon it. "Grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ". The verb is in the singular, it is "subsists". Really the two ideas are combined into one. It also says, "Of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace". One wave after another comes into the soul.

H.H. One has often been touched with Psalm 45

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and Luke 4, in that, in the Psalms, "Grace is poured into thy lips", but in Luke 4, it flows from His lips "they wondered at the words of grace".

J.T. Quite.

J.S. Do you see the effect of dew in John 1:37 The two disciples saw Jesus as He walked. The de was there, do you think?

J.T. Yes. Their attention was called to it; the were ready for it. I suppose the words of John would have an effect upon their souls, and would have conveyed something more than the words. He was evidently very affected because it was the outpouring of a filled soul.

J.W. So it says here, that the manna was round like hoar-frost. Have you any thought as to that?

J.T. It refers to the life of Jesus. It is not exactly like fine flour. There is something, I think, for the eye in it, in the roundness, the seed. It is granular. It was larger than flour, round, some translate it scaly. It is not something to be baked. It could be, no doubt, but the idea is that it is something that you can eat without any cooking or baking.

J.S. Does it give you the thought of completeness Nothing needed to be added to it.

J.T. Possibly -- the roundness, yes. The more you looked at it, the more it suggested something to you. As you look at a small round thing, it has a peculiar effect upon the eye.

R.S. Would the dew set forth preparedness for the manna? There is no contamination when the dew is there before the manna.

J.T. Well, that is the idea, that it does not come in on you naturally. You would not gather it at all. You would not value it. The dew must come first. It is a sense of grace acting, and so it fits in with this chapter. What I think we must notice is the place Aaron has in it; then it is the first mention of Sabbath by name, and spiritually it is of great importance.

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Although the wilderness is a place of movement, there is the idea of rest and enjoyment. The teaching of it is linked on here with the manna, that is to say, as I appreciate the manna, I value Christ.

I find rest in Christ. And then the place Aaron has is in verse 10. Moses said, "In the morning, then shall ye see the glory of Jehovah". (verse 7). And then in verse 9 Moses spoke to Aaron, "Say to all the assembly of the children of Israel, Come near into the presence of Jehovah; for he has heard your murmurings. And it came to pass, when Aaron spoke to the whole assembly of the children of Israel, that they turned toward the wilderness, and behold, the glory of Jehovah appeared in the cloud". Now, that is one of the most interesting things in the chapter, in fact, in the whole book, because it is a question of how God "drew them with bands of a man". It is the voice of Aaron, not Moses. Aaron is typically Christ in His feelings and affection for us. They are thinking of Egypt. What will turn a young brother or sister away from Egypt? The voice of Jesus -- listen to the voice of Jesus! It says, "It came to pass, when Aaron spoke to the whole assembly of the children of Israel, that they turned toward the wilderness", as if the voice of Aaron directed them that way. It is not a command. It is the influence of that voice. He says, 'I will go anywhere with that voice, under the influence of that voice, because the wilderness is not attractive, you know, it is the opposite'. Why should I turn towards it then? It is because of the voice.

H.H. Do you think that the Ethiopian eunuch's movements would be very different after Philip began at the same scripture and preached unto him Jesus?

J.T. That is right. He went on his way rejoicing. That is the idea of it.

W.S. What does Moses represent?

J.T. Well, I thought that it is the side of authority.

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But how beautiful is the voice of Jesus! What a Powerful, mighty voice! As the hymn puts it, 'Calling me from earth'. Well, that is the idea, that they turned toward the wilderness. If you had asked them why, perhaps they could not have told you, but there was a power in that voice, and that was directing them in that way. So that it says, "Behold, the glory of Jehovah appeared in the cloud". As if to say it is God who had turned them -- "The glory of Jehovah appeared in the cloud". It seems to quote it consequent on their turning to the wilderness.

H.H. You would not find the glory of Jehovah in Egypt, would you? Man's glory shines there.

J.T. Oh no, it is God luring you in this direction.

P.M. So that if you draw nigh to God, He draws nigh to you.

J.T. Just so. And the glory is so attractive. Moses had promised it to them in verse 7; but in verse 10, as they turned, God appears. Moses had promised it the day before, but now they see it.

W.M. That would be a very great incentive to them to keep their eyes in that direction.

J.T. Well, that is the idea, I think, in Hosea, "I drew them with bands of a man" -- the influence of Christ as a Man.

H.H. You remember some years ago in Glasgow, you touched on Romans 5, and this is running through my mind tonight as you suggest it; you get grace there, and then you get the rejoicing in the hope of the glory, and then you get the love of God shed abroad in your heart. All that comes in in connection with young christians, as well as the old.

J.T. Quite so. I think that corresponds to this.

Rem. Mr. Darby speaks about the God they found in the wilderness -- 'Patient, gracious, powerful, holy'.

J.T. Yes. We have to notice the idea of a man in the wilderness, that is Christ typified in Aaron. His authority is Moses, but Aaron was God's man

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for affections. God says to Moses, "when he seeth thee he will be glad in his heart", Exodus 4:14. The man of affection typifies Christ in that way.

F.C. The glory is in the cloud. What is the significance there?

J.T. Well, that was the divine dwelling, the symbol of divine presence. God was there in the cloud. It signified His presence there. It was a manifestation. God is always here with us in the Spirit, but sometimes He gives a manifestation -- something that is special, that shines out. We should look for that manifestation, the appearing of the glory.

A.G. It is true today as much as it was in Israel's day.

J.T. And that is the test of where God is, you know. There are those who go on and talk of having God with them, but where is the presence of the Lord? Where is the power of the Spirit of God? You want some evidence of the presence of God, some indication, if He is with us. At times He shows Himself specially to us.

J.S. This would hold the people. The glory of the Lord would hold them in their affections for the Lord, would it not? They would see the beauty and the patience that was in Himself. In contrast, they see what is in the wilderness, the darkness of everything that is around.

J.T. Quite. I am sure you have realised in meetings, that at times God shines out in a special way. Very often in a crisis God comes in and settles the matter by some act of His. He does something, and the matter is settled if anyone has eyes to see.

A.G. Do you not think it is important to listen to the voice of Jesus, not only to eat the manna, but to listen to the voice?

J.T. The sympathy there is in it, you know. Of course Moses' voice would be His voice too. It

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would be authority, but Aaron's is marked by sympathy.

W.S. Would this come with going forth "to him without the camp, bearing his reproach"?

J.T. Well, exactly,"Go forth to him". "Jesus … suffered without the gate".

H.H. It is often a test, as you said, that when we go through it with the Lord, He comes in in the most manifest way, and signifies approval. It is owing to their murmurings that the glory is here, is it not?

J.T. Yes. The glory covered the whole tabernacle, that is the idea. God said, I will take care of the testimony. He covered it all. Whatever people may do, God will cover the testimony, and take care of it.

P.M. Does verse 12 show us how we grow in grace and in the knowledge of God? "I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak to them, saying, Between the two evenings ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am Jehovah your God".

J.T. That is right. It would be a distinct mark. There would be progress at this point. Israel would grow in it, you know, it would mark progress.

R.S. Does not that verse show the magnificence of the provision that God had for them? He says, "Between the two evenings ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread" -- no lack -- "and ye shall know that I am Jehovah your God".

J.T. Quite. That is right.

H.H. The light of God's ways or purpose is one thing, but the experimental knowledge is another, that is how we come into it -- "Ye shall know".

J.T. That is the idea. As our brother was just remarking, this marks progress. "And ye shall know that I am Jehovah your God", for the wilderness is the place of learning. 'What the God that thou hast found'. You learn God there.

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R.S. It is fine to hear that they are filled with bread in the morning.

J.T. Yes, so that in the evening, the eating of the flesh is one side of His provision, and the bread is the other.

J.S. Say a little about the baking of the manna. When they gathered on the sixth day, they gathered two omers and the instructions were they could bake it (verse 23).

J.T. Well, "Tomorrow is the rest, the holy sabbath, of Jehovah: bake what ye will bake, and cook what ye will cook". That is, it is a question of liberty, that at this point you have learned how to grow in the knowledge of God, and God says, I will have confidence in you, and on the sixth day whatever you wish to bake, do it. It is God giving you liberty; do as you will do, not baking a certain thing, but baking what you will bake.

J.S. That is to say, you have learned how to use grace.

J.T. That is right, that God can trust you. He can trust you that much, on the sixth day, because the sixth day is to mark progress. The sabbath is confirmatory of all the previous experience of the six days that were before. Now you are gathering more, twice as much as you gathered before. What are you going to do with it? Can He trust you for two days? "Bake what ye will bake", the point is, you are not to bake on the sabbath. It is a beautiful thought. God has confidence in us. He has called us to liberty but not licence. "Bake what ye will bake". It is beautiful, I think, how you will advance in the knowledge of God -- "Perfect love casts out fear", 1 John 4:18. He would teach us in this way, to be at liberty with Him.

J.S. Just before we close, say a little word upon the omer being placed before the testimony.

J.T. Well that, I think, is what we were saying;

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it would be the measure of a man -- the heavenly city is the measure of a man. It is a finite idea, I think; that is, it is Christ, but not as regards His eternal personality, but Christ as measure for us to grow to, as in manhood. I think that is the idea of it. It is the measure of a man that God keeps before Him for ever.

P.M. Is it God's standard?

J.T. Yes, God's standard, and He has given you food to build you up for that.

G.T. We must be near God to see that standard as before the testimony.

J.T. Well, exactly, that is one of the things mentioned in Hebrews -- the pot that had the manna.

F.C. It is a golden pot there in Hebrews. Is there any thought in that? We are not told of the kind of pot here, we have to go to the New Testament for that.

J.T. Well, it would be, I suppose, everything inside was gold. It would be, I think, gold. Gold in the tabernacle is what God is towards us, it is the testimony of God. His thought is not man as a measure for us, the ark of the testimony is not that, it is the divine ark, measureless and divine. That is never a measure for us. But the omer is a measure, not an omer and a half, a half means there is something more, but an even measure is finite, and that is the idea of the heavenly city. It is finite measurement, great and glorious, but finite.

W.M. Would the seventh day be given so that they might meditate, that we might meditate more fully upon this precious manna that we have been feeding on every morning?

J.T. That is the idea. How much rest do I know?

You know we are getting so restless. The idea, I think, is very beautiful, that in the wilderness we begin to learn to rest. It is there that you are confirmed

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in everything, and everything is confirmed in you in restfulness.

P.M. Would the golden pot of manna speak of the fulness that is in Christ?

J.T. Yes, I think it is God's standard for us, what He would have.

Rem. Would there be any thought of measure in Philippians? The last thing he says, "I am full, having received of Epaphroditus"; there is the thought of measure (Philippians 4:18).

J.T. Well, I suppose there may be an allusion. He was full, just so, very likely it is an allusion to it. He did not want anything over, all he needed was fulness.

W.S. Does that come in at all for every one of us?

J.T. Well, the apostle's remark in Philippians alludes to the manna. I suppose it does. You do not need anything more than that. The day's meat is sufficient for the day, you know, for its needs. It will be noticed that the actual amount of an omer is the tenth part of an ephah, so there is one standard. It is a question of measure made very explicit; that is the last word in the chapter. It is according to the measure of the gift of the Christ. I think that leads on to the idea of growing -- "until we all arrive ... at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ", Ephesians 4:13.

W.M. What is the thought in it being the tenth part of an ephah?

J.T. Oh, I do not know. There may be an element of responsibility in the tenth. It is a measure much used, a subdivision much used. Where you get a subdivision there is always something. Why should there be a subdivision of anything? I think the idea would be that I am not all. I am a subdivision. There are others. Ten is responsibility, but it is divided.

H.H. Could you tell us why in verse 31, after they

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rested on the seventh day, the house of Israel designate the thing? Now it is manna -- before that, what is it? Do you think they had come into the thing intelligently now as a result of the seventh day?

J.T. Yes. I suppose that is what they called it but I think what they called it left the question open.

The word signifies a question. It is disputable, the meaning is difficult, but I think it is wonderful what sort of a man is this, still you have the names. It is more the measure of a man, of Christ. There is always something underneath. I think He is always divine; there never was a Man like this. The word 'man' is given in the margin, but it is not the word for 'man', for 'human'. It is a different root entirely. It denotes a question, I think, and it is well that we should never think that we know all about Christ.

R.S. You can only express what you know, like the woman in John 4; she says, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done", John 4:29.

J.T. Yes, that is right. The man in chapter 9 was quite right, too, "I know". He could speak of what he knew.

J.S. Would you help us in the distinction between Numbers and here? It says in Numbers, the taste of it was as the taste of fresh oil; but the taste of it here was like wafers made with honey.

J.T. The taste is a question of their change. It is a change in their taste rather than a change in the manna. Fresh oil is not quite so nice as honey, consequently they got tired of it. The manna had not altered. That is where the judgment comes in. They thought they would change it by a certain process but God gave it as it was. That is the best way to take it, as God gives it.

R.S. I suppose that as we feed on Christ, we will find there is no variation in Him; He is "the same

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yesterday, and today, and to the ages to come", Hebrews 13:8. He never alters, but we may alter.

J.T. The taste grows, valued more and more.

W.M. Would the sweetness imply the freshness of first love?

J.T. I suppose so. The Lord promises the hidden manna.

G.T. What would the hidden manna be?

J.T. It refers to what we have, the knowledge outside the knowledge of the religious world, that is the idea. But the Lord gives you something that the religious world does not know anything about, it is a question of what is hidden, what is secret; it is a privilege. In reading the Lord's address to the assemblies, it is well to bear in mind that it has a historical setting, that what you have alludes to current things, so that if, as in Pergamos, or any of the assemblies, anything is current publicly among religious circles, you do not want that. The Lord says, I know you do not want that, you want something different, and I will give you something different. You do not want publicity, you want something that He will value, and that is secret. So that you have a white stone, and the name on it that no one knows but yourself. That helps us in reading the addresses to the assemblies.

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CARE FOR OTHERS, A FEATURE OF THE DIVINE NATURE

Luke 10:34; 1 Timothy 3:5; 2 Corinthians 11:28 - 30

I have in mind, dear brethren, to speak about the feature of the divine nature expressed in care, in care for others, in what is expressed in us. Thus whatever feature of the divine nature shows itself, it has had its expression in Christ first, but I confine my remarks to the idea of care.

It is seen in these scriptures, first in regard to a christian (an individual) and then secondly in regard to a church (the church in its real setting) and thirdly in regard of all the churches. These are the thoughts I have in mind and it is to the end that we might be enlarged first in caring for one's neighbour, then in caring for the local company in which one may be, involving fellowship in its local feature, and then for all the churches involving what may be termed general fellowship. I believe this is the order in which we are developed in this divine feature.

We get examples in the Old Testament, and the fundamental principle, as I might call it, of the local company is the neighbour. One arrives at the local feature of the church by beginning with the neighbour and so in the Old Testament you have that thought embodied in the law, indeed it is in the Lord's own condensation of the law: the second commandment is like unto the first. The first is the supreme idea; the second is very near it, it is like unto it. The first is, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart", etc., that is my relations with God, and the second is, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself", on these two, says the Lord, hang all the law and the prophets.

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The Lord had a marvellous way of condensing, indeed compression is a feature of the Lord's life and ministry and it enters into the Bible, too, but compression that can be opened up and opened up ad infinitum. It must be so, so that having the thing in a small compass we should get a general grasp and then begin at the opening out. So that whilst we learn this we learn in relation to the whole.

Hence the Lord said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), all is there, but volumes could not contain what anyone of these things is, as opened up, and so this commandment as I said, is second, it is like unto the first, for all the divine truth hangs together, but there is the principle of one, two and three in divine things and that enters into all the orderings of God, the order of one, two and three. The first is the supreme idea and the second is like unto it so that great place is given to this principle of the neighbour and then to the care of more than one person.

Moses aptly represents our Lord in the bearing of the burden of the whole; it was no small matter to look after some two million men, women and children in the wilderness; he is a type of Christ. But then under divine ordering he goes up to the mountain to be with Jehovah and what would become of those left behind? Beloved brethren, we have the Lord's position in a simple way, gone up; the Lord has gone up.

Moses was directed to go up to Jehovah, he and Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel, but then he was to go himself, they all went up but Moses was to go himself and he was there six days and on the seventh day the cloud covered him and he ascended (see Exodus 24). I have no doubt he was viewed by those below before the cloud covered him, but he entered the cloud and ascended to Jehovah. But what was to happen to those below? Moses was

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not unconcerned about that so he says if anyone has any matter, Aaron and Hur are there. These millions must be cared for. These Israelites must be cared for and so you have Aaron and Hur. Now I think Aaron and Hur indicate the idea of care for the assembly. They are tried persons. "Let these be first proved", we are told, that is to say, care is entrusted to trustworthy men.

Aaron is a development in secret; he is not brought forward in Scripture until he was a very old man, he was never known as a young brother publicly as far as Scripture goes. He was known to God and he is introduced to Moses at that old age, Moses himself being nearly as old, about three years younger, so that there would ever be that test between the two that the most prominent in the service of God was younger. But he is introduced by Jehovah to Moses as Aaron the Levite, "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well", Jehovah says, and he is coming to meet you and when h sees you he will be glad in his heart (Exodus 4:14).

That is the one and he proved all that Jehovah said about him; I think God looks for that, dear brethren. He looks for confirmation of His choice and Aaron was not behind so far; he was the brother and he could speak well, and the best evidence of the fact that he could speak well was that when he spoke to Israel they turned away from Egypt to the wilderness (Exodus 16:10). The man that can turn the saints away from Egypt is a worthy man. They had just been talking about Egypt and the fleshpots and how well they fared there; they said it just as worldly-minded christians say it. They were inclined to go back and Aaron spoke to them; Moses directed him to speak to them, and as he spoke to them they looked to the wilderness, and as they looked towards the wilderness they saw the glory of Jehovah. It is worth while looking towards the wilderness to see

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that; it is as if God would say, that is the way to go, that is the direction of the glory; it is not in Egypt, it is in the wilderness.

Now Aaron is left to look after the people; I do not say that he is successful, I am not speaking of that side as Aaron was not. But he had all the qualifications, he was the brother and he could speak well and he could influence the saints by his speaking. He could influence them towards the wilderness and any speaking that does not influence towards the wilderness is not to be trusted. Any writings or books that do not direct towards the wilderness are not to be trusted.

Well, that is the position. Aaron and Hur were, so far, proved men; Hur represented purity; we have nothing to go by but his name, and what he could do. He could hold up another brother's hands, the two men together as a matter of fact, Aaron and Hur, had been the support of Moses (Exodus 17:12). He had proved them, it is a great thing, beloved, to prove the brethren, David speaks about not having proved the armour that Saul would have induced him to wear. We are first to be proved. Moses had proved these men; he had proved Aaron and now he proved them both and they uphold his hands so that the victory is decided in favour of the people of God. The bearing of the service of these two men is in favour of the people of God and they are trusted to look after them whilst Moses is away. That is the position in the type and I mention it in regard of the second scripture: "how shall he take care of the assembly of God?"

Well, I go back again to the first scripture so that we may learn something about caring for the neighbour and about caring for one who may be regarded as near, and Luke gives us this beautiful parable, Luke alone gives it. It is what you might call a medical parable and in keeping with the writer; one

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who can diagnose and see what the ailment is and who, not being, as I may say, ever at a loss, has the medicine with him; He never says go; He never writes a prescription. It is personal contact, a living voice and a living touch, that is the Samaritan as you know; I suppose every preacher has used this beautiful parable in the gospel. I want, however, to confine myself to the closing verses which include the idea of care.

After the man is attended to medically, he is put on the Samaritan's own beast and brought to the inn and he (the Samaritan) took care of him. He did not hand him over to the innkeeper at once; I want you to notice this because it enters into what I have specially in mind. The innkeeper would certainly know how to take care of a sick man; he is accustomed to take care of people in poor health, but it is not said so here. The Samaritan brought him to the inn and took care of him himself. There is not a word about his employing anyone else at first.

Now, beloved, we must learn everything in the Lord. Christianity is not merely a matter of precept, but of precedent and principle. There are precepts, of course; there are laws, but the great feature of the Acts is what was done and how it was done, that is the great feature, and so the Lord remained with them for forty days before He went up.

We speak about the Lord Jesus as if we could walk round Him like an ordinary person. You cannot do that, He is always present; no one knows the Son but the Father; the inscrutable is there always and so specially as He rose from the dead; He was with them forty days. Where was He? He appears once amongst the disciples as they were gathered together and again we are told, eight days afterwards, Where was He? You see the thing is inscrutable, He was there, it is altogether beyond the natural mind, it is inscrutable, He was there for forty days.

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Paul, in writing to the Corinthians so as to induce them to be spiritual, refers to the number of times that the Lord appeared to His own. It is as if He would impress His own, before they entered the service, that it is spiritual and to be done in a spiritual manner. The book of Acts shows how things are to be done. Luke begins that narrative by telling us how the Lord showed Himself after His suffering, after His death, with many proofs, and that He assembled with them. Then Peter says, 'now we are less than twelve'. It is a good thing to accept that we are less than the required number. The Lord, according to Matthew, recognises the eleven, and He was not deterred by the fact that they were less than twelve, but Peter recognised it.

It is a very wholesome thing to accept that we are less than twelve. Some humiliating thing has happened, why this dividing, why this shortage, why this trouble? Well, we accept it, and the Lord knows the explanation, but the breach has to be filled, the twelfth is to be added. I may say that twelve is complete administration, the administration of love has to go on, twelve signifies this. Then we must take account of the Lord's manner, and how He did things, and so the apostle says as to the disciple who is to be the twelfth apostle, that he must be one of those who assembled with us during all the time the Lord Jesus came in and went out amongst us from the baptism of John until He was received up. That is the idea, everything must be learned from Christ. If I am to assemble rightly with my brethren I must learn that; He assembled with them, and so if I am to know how to care for a christian I must learn that in Christ.

He took him to the inn and took care of him and on the morrow, meaning that he spent the night there; is it too much, dear brethren, for me to say that the innkeeper went into the room where they were and

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saw how the Samaritan treated him? It is quite obvious that the Samaritan remained there to take care of him and he showed in that action how such; a man is cared for, and on the morrow he says, 'Now you take care of him, I am going away and I will see to it that you are paid'. "Take care of him", that is the charge, that is the idea of the Lord's care and as we run down the chapter we come to Martha, and what do we find? She actually chides the Lord with not caring. "Dost thou not care", after this wonderful example of care on His part.

Need we wonder that He prays in the presence of that, not simply praying, but praying in a place! It is not obvious that it was that particular village where Martha's house was, but they were wanting in that house; they thought He did not care; she had that in her mind but He adjusted her, and He prays in a certain place and in certain circumstances. We have to learn from Jesus how to pray. They saw Him praying and one disciple said, "Lord, teach us to pray", not 'teach me to pray', because the idea is a collective thought. Chapter 11 brings in the collective thought; indeed chapter 10 begins with the idea that the Lord sent out disciples two by two into every city and place where He Himself would come.

The idea was to have a place and conditions suitable for His presence, so that they were to enquire for a son of peace and if there is a son of peace in the house, He says, "Your peace shall rest upon it". It is a very great challenge for a locality, a son of peace; I always like to know how many are breaking bread, but the quality is in the son of peace; if you have not a son of peace you will have no assembly according to God. If a son of peace be there, let your peace remain.

I may say that no one should go round serving the Lord's people except it be on right lines; it should never be a sideline, it is an urgent matter, it is a

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question of construction, it is a question of the sons of peace, and if there be a son of peace let your peace rest upon that house.

At the close of Luke 10, the Lord goes to a certain village; we are not told the name of the village, but no doubt it was Bethany. He goes to the house of Martha, and there was a question as to His caring for people: "Dost thou not care that my sister has left me to serve alone?" She chides Him, a very serious state of things in a locality; but the Lord is not to be questioned; He is caring for things. So in Luke 11, the Lord prays; what can we do in such a condition but pray? The disciples saw Him pray; how beautiful! He lifted up His eyes. John tells us what He prayed for, but in Luke it is a personal example. "Teach us to pray", says one of the disciples. "Teach us"; this is, I believe, to bring in a company. Then we have the furnishings of that company which, as the chapter shows, is the Holy Spirit which the Father gives out of heaven.

Well now, that, dear brethren, is the position in Luke 10 and 11. It is a question of caring for a saint and that saint is cared for in finding his place in the company, for that is the idea, and instead of being like Martha, chiding the Lord that He does not care, he is praying, he has learnt how to pray and to find out that he gets everything from the Father. "How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

He takes charge of all our affairs here so that there is care for the assembly, but then I want to have part in that if I have learnt care in the inn as the innkeeper did from the good Samaritan. I want to have part in the care and that is what is in view in the scripture in 1 Timothy. It is a question of the care of the church. I do not say that the care of the church is ever handed into one man's hands; what you will observe is that the ordinance of bishops is

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in the plural, it is not an ordained elder of every city, not like the systems around, the Spirit of God ever guarding against the very thing we have to do with today.

When Scripture speaks of ordained elders, whether in the assembly or in the city, it is in the plural, and can we not prove, dear brethren, that it is love that teaches that there should be no arrogating in any one person of the supreme charge of the assembly? But there is in the case of an elder the idea of a caretaker and the Spirit of God is most particular as to whether he is a proved man, whether he is an Aaron and a Hur. What is he in his house? Has he a good report there? Are his affairs upright? Is he a righteous man? Has he on the breastplate of righteousness? Can any charge of unrighteousness be brought against him? Is he clear of these things entering into the care of the assembly? So if he does not know how to take care of his own house how can he take care of the assembly? God will not accept any kind of care, He puts up with a great deal, I know. As was said of Aaron of old, when Moses heard him he was content, but there was a serious defect in Aaron nevertheless.

The Lord has to put up with a good deal but he will insist on certain qualifications in those who take care of the assembly; if they have not got these qualifications, they need to be taken care of by the assembly. Like the man who fell among thieves, they need to be cared for; the assembly is the place for that.

So in Romans we have the individual Christian; a weak brother is cared for, but he is not an elder; he cannot take part in the care meeting, not to the determination of reasonings, but he is to be received and cared for although a weak brother. The assembly takes care of the weak brother; his very weakness implies that he has not the qualifications of a care

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taker. If I have not such qualifications, I need to be cared for and the brethren are bound to attend to that.

Well, that is the idea that I wish to impress upon you as regards Timothy. Then we have the widening thought of 2 Corinthians, not that the apostle presents himself as being officially appointed as a pope; he was not that. A pope, I suppose, will be shut in and it is assumed that the burdens of the churches rest on his shoulders. But there is no such office at all. The only One to whom that office can be entrusted is the Holy Spirit. The only Vicar of Christ on earth is the Holy Spirit. He is the One who takes charge of all the affairs of the assembly and, mind you, it is not simply that He stays in Rome, where He is never seen; He is alongside of us, like a solicitor by his client in the court, who is alongside of him, and who takes charge of his affairs. That is the greatness of the Spirit down here; He takes charge of all the assemblies.

There is a wonderful interchange of influences in the gatherings. They are not merely local assemblies, for God is against any sectarian idea. They form one assembly. Local companies are not independent of one another. There is only one fellowship, dear brethren, we might as well accept that. We can thus never say, 'It is not your affair' to any brother.

There is only one fellowship, it takes a local form, the local merges into the general and wisdom knows how to discriminate. Hence we have that passage, "using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit", for there is one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, over all, through all and in us all, that is the position it requires enlargement and wisdom to distinguish where the local feature arises.

Corinthians is the local feature, Ephesians is the general feature, that is the way the matter stands,

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and hence you get in Ephesians, "the love which ye have towards all the saints". The more love we have towards God and to the saints, the more we have for all, even if they be strangers, they all belong to the assembly and they are welcome, that is the principle. Wisdom may order certain things that everybody recognises, but that is the Spirit.

Well, now you see how that was worked out in the apostle; as I said, it was not an office. The things that he relates in this particular chapter which I have read are things that he would have preferred to have kept secret until the judgment-seat of Christ, but it was a question of love, that is the idea. A man whose heart was so large that he almost took in the fulness of the breastplate; his heart was so great as formed by the Spirit of God, his love for the assembly was so great, not only in the general way, he does not say care for the whole assembly but for all the assemblies. I do not know how many assemblies there were; there are assemblies now, but Paul had them all. I can understand him having a list before him as he prayed. He writes to one of them that he had never seen, the assembly at Colosse, and he did not simply pray but he agonised for them.

Now for the experience of that man in regard to the testimony of God, the great burden of all the assemblies, he did not wish to regard it as one great idea like the pope, it was a question of love, beloved, the praying for the care of all the churches.

What compression in that holy man! I urge on you the idea of compression. Paul was martyred as a comparatively young man; so far as we can learn his ministry was not very long, it was like David's, it was compressed. Now just think, beloved, what that man's daily experience must have been, what his prayers were, what his house-to-house visiting was -- the idea of care of all the assemblies.

Well, may the Lord help us to see what the position

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is, what there is to be cared for, the assembly. The Lord referred to it in the parable as the pearl of great price, and it says that He gave Himself for it. So you can understand how full the heart of our great apostle was as he set off from the elders of Ephesus. They are the flock of God; the Holy Spirit has made you overseers of the flock of God. What a charge that was! Then he says, "to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own". These scriptures show us what the assembly is to Him. Well, dear brethren, what is it to us? What is a local company to us? What are all the assemblies to us? We are to challenge our hearts. We are to be in these days on the line of caretakers, to have a sense of responsibility in regard of what is most precious to God and has the greatest place in the universe to Christ -- the assembly.

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DEFINITENESS IN THE THINGS OF GOD

1 Samuel 6:7 - 15; Genesis 48:17 - 19; Luke 22:7 - 12

I had the simple desire in my mind to stress the thought of definiteness in the things of God; for the opposite is prevalent, even among those who seek to be here for the will of God. Indefiniteness makes for neutralisation, and neutralisation of the truth is well-nigh opposition. So the apostle James, in writing his epistle, speaks severely of persons who are doubting in their relationships with God, and says further, that "A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways"; there is no definiteness, whereas the word is full of definiteness, the Scriptures are full of exhortations to it. This leads me to select these three scriptures, the first presenting the idea in relation to instinct; the second, in relation to intelligence; and the third in relation to a definite end or objective, an enjoyment set before us as our eye looks straight on. You will remember how Moses in his beginnings looked "this way and that way", so with us, certain circumstances become distracting; it may be fear of consequences, fear of causing ill-feeling in others, or it may be a state in us; but there is much of looking this way and that way, and not looking straight on.

Now the first feature I had in mind in relation to definiteness was instinct, and it is a most important one, because we may have knowledge, as the apostle Paul said of the Corinthians, but knowledge in itself without instinct will fail us. I am not deprecating knowledge, for it is said that the people of God are destroyed for lack of it, but instinct is properly before knowledge. Not exactly in the order of place, but in the order of emphasis as to what is properly initial, the two things run concurrently in us. You

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find instinct in a babe, though you can hardly say you find knowledge, because knowledge implies that I can give an account of a thing. I can give a reason 'why'. Instinct does not go that far, but it acts with unfailing precision; and so the lower creatures are employed to symbolise instinct. It appears in a babe, as for instance in Jacob, who in his infancy took his brother by the heel -- that was instinct; he could not have told you why at the time, but he could later. And so it is with the young believer, he does things from instinct which perhaps he could hardly explain, but he can explain them afterwards. So the lower creatures, the milch kine in this passage, are employed to symbolise the instinct that is needed for definiteness. It is an ability in you to discern spirits in persons, and to discern environment, by the presence of something of which perhaps you know little, but which is there. For instance, a young believer in an assembly in which the Lord Jesus is known and recognised, in which the Spirit is recognised, can feel something without the intelligence to expound it, but it is felt, and he is held by that feeling. Now as to these milch kine, there was a something very great there in the environment; the greatest thing on earth, symbolically, was there on the cart. I am not speaking of the incongruity of the cart, but of the ark upon it, there is no change in that -- God was there! It was never less than the symbol of the glory and power of God. Think of being in such proximity to the ark! These kine were near it; they are not ordinary kine; and therefore they symbolise what I am speaking of -- spiritual instinct. They were productive, they had calves, they were not sterile, and they had never come under the yoke. These are things that marked them. Whilst we are under a yoke, we are not likely to come under the influence of what is spiritually outwardly cohesive. There is nothing for the natural eye, no direct movement, for

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the ark is being carried, but if they were under a yoke, that would influence them, they would be governed by that, and would be incapable of these fine feelings and instincts. So that any young believer, or an old one, who is under a yoke, is hardly likely to have any sensibilities as to the ark. But the ark is moving in this very connection, it is moving in connection with a power that is free from the yoke, by a power that is governed by instinct. There is a challenge to every heart, dear brethren, as to whether I am under any kind of a yoke. It is very easy to slip under a yoke to which you may be obligated. God said to Israel, 'I have taken you out of Egypt. I have broken the bands of your yoke and made you to walk uprightly'. There cannot be a walk according to God, until the bands are broken, whatever the yoke may be. There is a right yoke to be under, of course, the yoke of Jesus, but I am not speaking of that, nor is it alluded to here. Jehovah broke the bands of their yoke and made them to walk uprightly. It is a challenge, dear brethren, as to what it is I am obligated to. It may be to a brother, or a combination of brethren, but the yoke has to go if these sensibilities are to exist.

So these kine were milch kine, they were fruitful both in calves and milk, but they had never come under a yoke. They were, so to say, as God made them. Figuratively, a new order of things, it is what is of God, and would apply to those that are in the liberty of sonship, who have never come under the yoke. They have grown up in the holy light of the revelation of God in Christ as His sons. Now here they are tested, their calves are removed from them. This great powerful instinct, is it less potent than the instincts of nature? Is nature to dominate or this new thing? It is a new thing, it is altogether foreign to ordinary kine for it refers to what is of God. So that they move without direction, or driver, or guide.

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They move on without any extraordinary pressure, without bit or bridle, without a goad, and they move on the highway. But look at the environment, beloved, the ark of God. How great it is to be in proximity to the ark of God! You may be quite unintelligent, but as truly free from the yoke, you discern somehow that there is a power there, and it directs. The needle points truly in that current, and the mariner understands the current. There is definiteness, there is an environment of power, and I am sensitive to it, affected by it, and I go straight on. These milch kine went straight on. They were not without feeling as to their calves, for surely God would not have us to disregard natural affection. He says that to be without natural affection shows ungodliness. They had natural affection, but this new thing was greater, something greater had come in. In Christ coming into this world, you have an influence, and in the gospels you see it spread out, so that as others came under His ministry they acted accordingly; the instructions He gave regulated them intelligently, but they were moving by instinct; that is a great feature in the gospels. The sense of the movement is from the ark, it was on the cart, and there they went, on and on, "by the one high way"; there is only the one highway, that current leads in one direction and we do not want to be out of that. It is a question of instinct, dear brethren, you may not understand all that is said, but you can say to the Lord, 'I do not know'. It is a good thing to be able to say, 'I do not know'. It is sure evidence of a learning attitude that we admit we do not know. Which of us can assume to say that we know everything? It is true that John says, "We know". There are some things that we do know. "We know that the Son of God is come", but I am not speaking of that, but of all the things that His presence introduces us to here. As one goes that way, an irresistible

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current leads in one direction; all that is of God is recognised in it. They lowed as they went. They felt the loss of their calves, but they went on to death. That is, while they recognised nature, the other instinct dominated them, and they went on to Beth-shemesh, to suffering and death. That is the current at the present time; it is towards death. We are going on to the coming of the Lord, to the glory, but it is by death; these went that way and they suffered. At the end of their journey, the cart came into the field of Joshua the Beth-shemeshite and stood there; that was the end. The Levites were there, there was no need any longer for the milch kine, the Levites take care of the ark. It is now no longer a question of instinct, one cannot be a Levite without intelligence. They know what to do, they break up the cart and use it, and they offer up the kine. A beautiful type, beloved, of definiteness by instinct, the instinct that is in us by the divine nature -- in the youngest of us. The end is death, but a glorious death, for the thought merges in intelligence. It is by death, for there is no other way; that is what is implied, beloved, at the present time. It is the death of Jesus in this world, the whole current is in that direction. The book of Acts shows us clearly that it is by death, but then the glory is beyond. The intelligence that comes out of that, in the Levite, eventuates in the ark being taken in holy priestly intelligence, to the house that Solomon built.

Well, now, the thing is for us to have intelligence. What about the persons to whom you commit yourself? Christianity involves committal. The Lord Jesus Christ committed Himself in coming into this world, He undertook things, He committed Himself to a definite course. Let it be understood that in emptying Himself and taking upon Him a bondman's form it was not something imposed upon Him, it is His own act. He did it Himself. But in the bondman's

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form He committed Himself to God, and served in the bondman's form. So that we need not be afraid of committal. I read two verses in Genesis to illustrate the thought; there is a great deal more in the passage than I can speak of now, but I would stress the one thing, that Jacob knew the persons to whom he committed himself. You say, 'I commit myself to God, and to Christ, and to the Holy Spirit'. Yes, that is right, you commit yourself thus in baptism. Baptism introduces us into the great realm of life indicated in the revelation; but then there is a committal to the saints, that is in the Lord's supper. This committal involves fellowship and that involves persons; and surely it is important to be able to put our hands on the right persons; it is not one person here, but two. That is the principle; and one has to challenge oneself as to whether he has committed himself to the right persons, and to what principles he is committed. Is it on the principle of nature? 'Well', you say, 'I cannot get a better guide than Joseph'. But the most reputable servant of God might fail us, even Paul might fail you. Joseph certainly is a wonderful type of Jesus, and a wonderful servant, too. The only blemish recorded is the one indicated here, but Joseph is governed by nature at this particular point, and many of us are committing ourselves to people on these principles, something in them that gives them precedence, something in the government of God that gives them prominence in one's mind. In Joseph's mind, as he said, Manasseh was born first; it is the principle of the world, and he is affected by it here, great man though he was. It is a warning to us as to committing ourselves to persons who may have something in them by the government of God. If we follow instinct we will not go this way, our intelligence will be in keeping with our instinct. "Not so, my father", these are Joseph's words -- a voice well known in Egypt for its authority. There

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was no voice in Egypt with such authority, next to Pharaoh, but it had no weight whatever with Jacob at this point. Jacob was spiritual and intelligent at the moment, and Joseph was unspiritual and unintelligent. A rebuke and a challenge to the most distinguished of God's servants, and a warning to the saints. So Jacob says, "I know it, my son". I believe it is important to know who the persons are and why you commit yourself to them, on what principles. Is it on the principle of nature and what nature would value? Nature offers a great variety of things, but the spiritual principle is to pass by the firstborn, Manasseh is passed by, and Ephraim is selected. Well, that is the point I have to make on that scripture, it is a challenge as to the people with whom we are walking, and on what principles we are there.

Now the next point is found in Luke 22, the idea of a guide; and it will help us greatly as to the second point I have made. This passage in Luke will help the saints of God who are seeking the way of God; for there is the way of God in this world, though we may be defective in it. Even Apollos was defective in it. He arrived at Ephesus, and he was mighty in the Scriptures. He was a man whose preaching would draw crowds today, I have no doubt, but he was defective. He only knew the baptism of John. But there was more to be known, and there is a great deal to be known now, in the way of fellowship, in the way of God, and we do not want to be ignorant. So Priscilla and Aquila brought Apollos to them. There was to be a personal touch. They were a beautiful pair, these two, the Holy Spirit delights to dwell upon them. They were in Corinth in the way of God. They were tent-makers, and Paul associated himself with them as another tent-maker; it is the way of God. That is the way of God in Corinth. Surely we would be reminded that the way of God is

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not connected with architecture, or with great cathedrals. To be obscure and in rejection, is the way of God in Corinth. So these two can show Apollos "the way of God more exactly". We need to be exact when we come to the way of God. The way of God comes in in connection with Apollos, he was ignorant of the way of God in certain features, and Priscilla and Aquila take him to them, implying a personal touch and a link formed which would probably never be broken.

So this passage in Luke illustrates what I have in mind, it is entirely from the Lord's initiative. Luke would make externals and order important, and show furnishings; for another important thing as to committal is whether the furnishings are right, whether the order is according to God. And so the Lord tells them, "A man will meet you, carrying an earthen pitcher of water", he shall meet you. It is a divine provision in the ways of God. He is bearing a pitcher of water. They do not say anything, it is a question for the eye, they look straight on, that is the way he looks. And so as wending his way through Jerusalem, I keep my eye on him. It is not simply a bottle he is bearing, it is a pitcher. I apprehend that the water is to be for immediate use, ready to be poured out. It is a containing vessel, but one that can be used immediately. So that he typifies something I can have at once. It is all there ready for pouring out. If I am the most thirsty soul I need not wait, for it is ready. I look abroad in christendom today; the Lord's supper may be taken once a month or even three months, but where this man goes you get refreshment at once. Now the point is that this man is going along definitely, his movements are definite; that is the idea of the ministry of the Spirit. There is a definite end in view, and I follow my eye, I am definite, I am thinking of nothing else. The Lord has told me to keep my eye on that man; he may

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turn a corner and I may miss him. I am speaking of the definiteness of the man; he was going to a certain place, a certain house, and he was going to enter by a certain entrance; so Luke tells us to enter where he enters. Luke is most definite in regard of instruction and public order. Some say, 'What does it matter whether the notices are given out at the end or at the beginning of the meeting?' Well, that is just the fineness which the Spirit of God has pleasure in. The Lord says, 'Enter where he enters, keep your eye upon him, otherwise you will miss it; take notice, and enter where he enters'. And so they follow him and they find the place where he enters. His objective was a place where the Master was respected. 'Oh', you say, 'I would love to get to a place like that -- where the Lord Jesus is honoured'. "The Teacher says to thee, Where is the guestchamber?"; it is actually 'My guest chamber'; the Lord has rights there, that is the idea. That covers the position at the present time as to fellowship and as to definiteness. I arrive by keeping my eye on what the Lord directs, so that I find the spot where Christ is honoured, and where the furnishings are in keeping with Him. The "large upper room". Who can take in the import of that word "large"? It is a day of small things, but there is great largeness spiritually. It is far more large and spiritual there than in the temple which is at Jerusalem, and so it is today, there is far more largeness in the place where you find Christ honoured, than in the largest cathedral. I should not be free to go into one. I should feel shrivelled up, but I come into the upper room direct by the will of God, and presently I find the Lord there Himself, placing Himself with His own. Is it not worth while being definite, dear brethren? I think you will admit the importance of being definite in these days.

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READING ON ACTS 9

Acts 9:1 - 43

J.T. The opposition to Christ, I suppose, is specially emphasised in Saul. How deep-rooted it was in the breathing out threatenings and slaughter! The opposition occurs in different forms, sometimes shallow, sometimes deep-rooted. The Spirit of God seems to single out this man to show and to emphasise the deep opposition, and show us how He can meet it. There are three accounts of this incident, this far-reaching incident, two by Paul himself, and one by the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is the writer of this book. He gives us the general features, then chapter 26 gives us the more copious account; and this particular phase is to be noted, the character of the opposition.

Ques. What was the particular character that was presented here? Had it deepened from the previous chapter when he saw and was consenting to his being killed?

J.T. I should think so. Saul tells us later that he was an eye-witness of "thy martyr Stephen". And James witnesses to the character of martyrdom of that day, "Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you". He saw that in Stephen, but then we are told he entered into houses and dragged men and women from them. So he met Christ in this character, "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest". The I is what he met in the houses of the saints, and the thou is the breathing in the threatenings and slaughter. That is the two characters, "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest". He ravaged the assembly-men and women, it was the assembly.

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Ques. Would you say the already pricked conscience only aroused the flesh to greater enmity?

J.T. Well, apparently so, the hatred was against Jesus. As the Lord says, "They have both seen and hated both me and my Father" (John 15:24); the satanic character of the thing, the breathing out, would denote that he was intelligently in it; the upper organ, the inner man that was active in an intelligent manner. He did it methodically from the intelligent part. It is the manner of Satan's malice.

Ques. Was Satan behind all this?

J.T. Exactly, breathing would indicate that; Satan was in him to that extent, inwardly.

Ques. Does the binding refer to the mind and spirit, as well as bodily?

J.T. Well, quite, rendering them as powerless as possible in their defence. I suppose the intent was the ferocity of the thing, to render them powerless by the ferocious rush upon them. But he met with Jesus. Stephen did not cower before him, he met him in power. He was not rendered numb by the onrush of the enemy. The Lord Himself in Gethsemane, and on the cross, never lost His holy balance in spite of the opposition against Him. There is no more touching study than the study of martyrdom as taking character from the death of Christ, how He met the enemy in death.

Rem. So the Lord did not take the myrrh, that which would have deadened the senses.

J.T. Quite so. Martyrdom infers that they died intelligently, witnessing to something. Saul was intelligent as under Satan. The martyrs were intelligent in the Spirit of Christ. "He does not resist you". "For thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter", Psalm 44:22. Like the Lord, "dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth", Acts 8:32. Martyrdom is triumph.

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Stephen is the characteristic martyr. He is called "thy martyr".

You notice here that the attack is against the disciples of the Lord. It is against the Lord, not only Jesus. Jesus is the character, the unresisting character that he met in the saints. But the Lord resists him, there is resistance, Saul had to do with the Lord, they were disciples of the Lord; that is, the whole power of the kingdom; the disciples were defended. Power is behind His authority, either to destroy Saul or to convert him. So it is the power of the kingdom, not as destructive as yet, but it is the Lord who can enter into conflict with him, and overcome. "Are we stronger than he?" 1 Corinthians 10:22. "Vengeance is mine; I will repay", Romans 12:19. But the wonderful thing that comes out in this chapter is the kingdom as it is now. If he had appeared later with this resistance it would be for his destruction, like antichrist, but now in the kingdom it is power acting in grace.

As he was journeying, he was active in the thing. It says, "It came to pass that he drew near to Damascus; and suddenly there shone round about him a light out of heaven, and falling on the earth he heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me?" It is the voice of grace, but it has authority in it.

Ques. Why is it called the way here?

J.T. The way is a symbol or formula for christianity or fellowship. You get it used in Mark, "Jesus entered on the way". It was the way into death. They belonged to that, the way that led Him into death. If the Lord had set up something that did not imply death, Satan could have used it. But inasmuch as they were in the way Satan would contend that every inch. The Lord teaches His own that He must suffer. He not only tells but He teaches. It is a question of being that, suffering is shown in

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that way. The young man ran into it in Mark, and kneeled down to the Lord and called Him, "Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" He was not fit for that, but the blind man; son of Bartimaeus, entered on it and remained on it.

He understood, he followed Jesus in the way. If we are in the way we shall suffer.

How divine instinct takes the way in Samuel I

The kine had never been under yoke, they were clear of the world. The calves were tied and kept behind and they were to go on without driver, without any external pressure, and they went along the highway.

And they came to Beth-shemesh, and the men took the kine and sacrificed. Satan hates that. The attractiveness of Christ would lead us to follow.

The disciples of the Lord were in the way. The great end in view is to see the glory, but it is by death. The oxen were in the employment of the ark, that is the powerful influence of Christ. They move on, and on, and on, by the one highway, and there they died, glorious end typically. Paul is a witness of the glory and a partaker of the sufferings.

But bringing them bound to Jerusalem ... terrible thought, the city of the great King, the spot where this murder should be carried out. But as he was journeying, and as he drew near to Damascus, "suddenly there shone round about him a light out of heaven, and falling on the earth he heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why does thou persecute me?" It is grace, where sin abounded grace has overabounded.

The gospel of the glory comes in here, he got the conception of Christ in glory. It was a glorified Jesus that he saw. Now he is in the presence of Jesus, calling him by name out of heaven, and that in the Hebrew language, as he tells us elsewhere.

Ques. Why does he say "Lord"?

J.T. That is the evidence of his conversion. Other

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lords had had dominion over him. Satan was his lord. The high priest in Jerusalem was the lord that he served. He never lost sight of this, "To us there is ... one Lord Jesus Christ ... and we by him". That is instinct, the instinct accompanying conversion. The work of God produced that instinct that would recognise the Lord. The instinct that goes with the work of God that would recognise the Lord shows that he was "delivered from the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love", Colossians 1:13.

"Who art thou, Lord?" A fine question, the question that issues from instincts of the divine nature. If it accompanied all conversions we should have more subjection amongst us. Now the word 'Lord' is put into our mouths, and rightly, but this is instinct. Here he just gets the answer, "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest". The answer is in keeping with the state. The Lord says, "No one knows who the Son is but the Father", Luke 10:22. But here the answer is in keeping with the circumstances, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest". He would never forget that -- whom thou persecutest. That refers to chapter 8, and chapter Z. Terrible challenge to his heart. I "am not fit to be called apostle, because I have persecuted the assembly of God". That man had to go, and he did go, not only from the eye of God but from Paul's eye, too. Whenever he would look at the saints afterwards Paul would think of that; it is a question of what Jesus is in those persons; they represented Jesus. "I am Jesus", that lowly unresisting Man at Calvary, not Lord. Paul says "Lord", but He says "Jesus", "whom thou persecutest", showing that it is Jesus who suffered here in man's reach. Not up there, Paul could not persecute Him up there, but it is what He was in the saints.

I have to judge myself as to whether the Spirit of

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Christ in a brother may not cause enmity in my heart; especially if, because of any way he may supersede me, I am apt to become a persecutor. That is how it was with Ishmael when Isaac was weaned. When Christ gets the full place in a christian's heart the man after the flesh is sure to persecute. The Lord says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day". It is the day of Christ, typically, and the whole house is given over to rejoicing at the weaning of Isaac.

Ques. Am I a persecutor if I am out of the spirit of the house?

J.T. Exactly, it is a very great test to us. For it may not seem a serious thing to many. I may be a persecutor of those who are giving Christ His place, and making others speak ill of them. But it is much to heaven.

In his own account in Acts 22, Paul tells us that he said, "What shall I do, Lord?" so we should keep that in mind. The Lord had in His mind that Paul was to do something. So that after the Lord saves your soul the next move is yours; what are you going to do? The christian is a moral product.

Rem. As Paul had persecuted the saints he had to learn to take his instructions from them, too.

J.T. That is right, he had to go into the city.

Rem. It is where the saints were.

J.T. Yes. The saints were in that particular city. "Enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do". That is rather a humbling thing, to learn that he had to go into the city. He had gone in another character, but now he had to go there bowed down, a stricken, weakened, disabled man. He has to go into the city, the responsibility is his. Others led him in grace, the Lord saw to that, but he had to go there. It raises the whole question of the Lord's authority, and where you have to go. It is your responsibility to go there.

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Rem. The Lord tells him to go there, but what he hears there is through the saints.

J.T. Yes, but it is in the city. There is something in it; the believer is not to do his own will at all.

What does it matter what place I go to? Would it not be better to go to Jerusalem and get light from the apostles there? But no, go into this city, the nearest one. The idea is that this city, Damascus, is almost here. It was an area in which the Lord had some ordering; He would have him to go to that particular place. He went into Arabia, he tells us afterwards, but the Lord did not send him to Arabia yet. Go into this city. It had certain boundaries, that city. He had to go within that. Not a word about the saints. Go into the city and it will be told you what you must do. Not a word about some great apostle there, but the principle that you must submit and do what you are told. And everything hinges now on whether you will move.

He had three days and three nights. All that had to be gone through before he met anyone. We are told, "the men who were travelling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but beholding no one. And Saul rose up from the earth, and his eyes being opened he saw no one. But leading him by the hand they brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without seeing, and neither ate nor drank". Those three days were spent inside. What is going to happen? It was a process of soul, an indescribable experience those three days, but they were making days, he was being made inwardly. I think it would go with Romans 7; he gives us the outline, he does not describe it all.

Ques. In those three days was there any thought of reaching the Lord in resurrection?

J.T. I think they were preparing him by the divine way, showing that we are not to force the work of God in the soul, but give it time. Three is full

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testimony to something. Here it is to a full process in the soul which is necessary before getting light. Not seven but three.

The next thing is that a little bit of preparation had to be gone through by Ananias as well. It is a humbling thing for us if we are going to help souls. The Lord considers for Ananias, and for Himself too, for His own name's sake that Saul should be rightly met, not only in word but in spirit, that he should be met in the right spirit. So the preparation was needed on both sides. The minister sometimes forgets that he has to be prepared for every address he gives, every service he renders, every soul he helps. And the brethren should give him time for that, and he should give himself time, for he is handling divine things. So there was a certain disciple in Damascus. That agrees with the Lord's word, "Enter into the city", and this disciple had to be prepared.

Rem. As a disciple in Damascus he was available.

J.T. Yes, there were disciples in Jerusalem but they were not available. Paul speaks well of Ananias in chapter 22, a pious man, but the Lord had prepared him nevertheless. But he was in the city, in Damascus. Every word tells, for this is the initial chapter in Paul's ministry.

Ques. Would you say that the Lord always has that which will meet the need of those that He will bring to light in that locality?

J.T. That is so. There is that in a locality which the Lord can use. So Paul says, "The Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city, saying that bonds and tribulations await me", Acts 20:23. What a thing for the Lord to have vessels in every city that would witness to Paul what would happen in Jerusalem! That is the testimony. It is very important that assembly service Godward should go on in companies in a locality and that there should also be service manward there. Peter served in a great transaction,

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the reception of the gentiles. Who is ready for such a thing as that? Peter had doubtless never thought how it would happen that he would admit the gentiles, how he would turn that key. In receiving people into fellowship the principle is that they have a right: "Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city", Revelation 22:14. That is, they can walk in. I cannot stand at the gates and say that I have authority to keep you out. They have a right, but it is conditional on their washing; it is not that they have washed but that they are washing regularly. Sometimes assemblies need to have a washing day. The brother that washes regularly has the right, but we have to see that he does wash, not simply that he is converted, but that he washes. Blessed are such. "Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away". If he does not do that he has no right to the tree of life. The thought of the city is the testimony and service manward; that is what I have in mind.

Ques. Is it as we move in a defiling scene that the necessity for washing comes in?

J.T. Well, and what you are yourself; the bodies are washed, but there is uncleanness from within, too. "Let us purify ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God's fear",

2 Corinthians 7:1. A continuous process is meant in Revelation 22; it is the present tense. In Revelation 1 the Lord is praised as the One who has washed us from sins in His own blood; He did that. In chapter 7 the great multitude have washed their robes; they have done it; they are not doing it. But in Revelation 22 it is those that wash their robes, and that is a continuous operation.

This chapter is full of holy instruction for us, bearing on Paul's doctrine; how the Lord prepared Ananias, and then how he rightly represented the

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Lord, for it is a question of what Paul would find in the city after the three days. What kind of spirit in service will he find? So you have Ananias coming to him and saying, "Saul, brother". He went and entered into the house, and, laying his hands upon him, he said, "Saul, brother, the Lord has sent me, Jesus that appeared to thee in the way in which thou tamest, that thou mightest see, and be filled with the Holy Spirit". The spirit of the man, laying his hands on him, and the word "brother" are representative of Jesus, Jesus in him. It is not 'Lord' but "Jesus"; all is to encourage his soul with the sense of grace. What a great preparation that was! We want to be a witness, one that Jesus can send; He sent him. That is the principle of service, that He sends you, and you are representative of Him.

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DIVINE IMPRESSIONS

Ezekiel 11:19, 20; Revelation 3:12

The setting of these scriptures is in relation to a returned remnant of God's people, and I have read them because they suggest an impressionable state brought about by God, so that He is able to impress them indelibly, and to make the impressions readable.

I bring these scriptures forward because of the shallowness (not that I am accusing anyone) which marks those of us whom God has sovereignly brought back from Babylon. There is a great want of material which God can impress indelibly, and impress so as to be readable, moreover, upon which He can write, or Christ can write (for that is the way it is put in the New Testament), the very greatest things. He would have us to be dealing, dear brethren, in these great things, and we shall be, as heart work becomes effective.

And so I read from Ezekiel because he has that in mind. If you read the chapter you will observe that he alludes to the time when God will bring back Israel, gathering them out of the nations. But He proposes to have them really, not merely in outward profession as of old, but real, and if God is to have us really He must have us heart-wise; there must be heart work. And if there is to be heart work there must be a heart other than the natural. God said that He would take away the heart of stone and give them instead a heart of flesh; this should be perfectly intelligible to us from the use made of it by the apostle Paul in writing to the saints in the city of Corinth, where impressions were taken on that were evidently of a shallow nature. Much was made of what they had externally, "in everything ... enriched in him,

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in all word of doctrine, and all knowledge ... so that ye come short in no gift", 1 Corinthians 1:5 - 7. But what heart work? And so, as they were touched by his first letter, he could speak a little to them about fleshy tables of the heart.

In doing so he formulates a sort of balance sheet, giving them all the credit he can in chapter 7 of the second epistle. There were many debits, but he would balance the account as much as possible by all the credits there were, and what he alludes to is heart work, repentance and tears, and vengeance against evil. He would balance the account. The Lord does these things for us so as to set our hearts at rest with Him. Who but He could enumerate all the credits! May I not say He minimises the debts and magnifies the credits. There was much in the way that the apostle reserves for later, for the last two chapters, the last chapter particularly. Terrible debits against that company. Let no one think that he can escape, for the Lord's vigilant eye passes over every gathering and detects where the real obligation lies. But it was creditable so far, and he gives them credit collectively. It was a matter of heart work; there was repentance according to God which was never to be repented of.

And so he can speak of the fleshy tables of the heart upon which the writing could proceed; upon which He can use, not only the finger, but the Spirit of the living God. The material was such as could bear the indelible impress of the Spirit of the living God. And this reminds me, dear brethren, of the difference between the time of the return of the captivity and of the initial history of God's people, whether in the Old Testament or the New. At the outset there was broadcast testimony, as illustrated in the parable of the sower, the seed fell on different kinds of soil as found on the earth. As if God was testing everything on earth found in the nations, as

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He did. Whatever there was was tested by the word, and only one soil is fruitful permanently. Now that is not what marks the close. What marks the close is not a broadcast testimony. There is no need again to test out the roadside, and the thorns, and the stony ground. That is all done. But the finished matter, christendom, is the testimony to that. We need not spend our time, dear brethren, in that. It is a question now of heart work, of quality, of that upon which impressions may be made by the Spirit of God that are to remain (for of what value are they if they do not remain?) -- and that can be read. They are not blurred, the very greatest things are to be read, as I hope to show. But God will make the best use of what there is; that is what I would specially call attention to, and I had in view the ministry of the apostle John.

He has a way of bringing every little bit, and every big bit, of the work of God in and making the most of it. It is he alone who tells us about Nicodemus. He was found asking questions of the Lord, and it was clear that, although he was a teacher in Israel, he did not know the ABC of spirituality. He came to Christ in the night, asked Him questions and listened to Him; he never showed one iota of opposition to Christ, great man though he was. He listened to Jesus. He was found in the council, his own spot; he did not give that up, but he had received some little impression of Christ and he lifted up a feeble voice, as it were, and from an unsuitable position in the council, in favour of Christ. And when I speak of Christ, beloved, it is what is here by the Spirit that draws out the opposition. Whatever little bit of Christ there is, never speak against it. John's ministry indicates that heaven notices that, and so Nicodemus comes in well at the end.

And so in many other instances in John's ministry, for we have things in his record that are not found

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elsewhere, which are just included in order that we might understand, in a time when his ministry specially revives every little bit as well as every big bit of the work of God, that all is taken account of and usable. We do not want to have our good evil spoken of; whatever little bit of good there is, let it be available so that it can be brought into the great writing material of God, so that He might write, and write the very greatest things upon us. We cannot afford to miss this, dear brethren; it is too great, too solemn to pass by.

And so I have referred to the overcomer in Philadelphia; that is what the verse alludes to which I read. You will find, in confirmation of what I have said, that Paul, in his second letter to Timothy, stresses the idea of life, not public order, not that that is cancelled. Nothing lapses really. Whatever God has brought in in His precious holy thoughts is maintained in some way in spiritual power. So that 1 Timothy does not lapse, it stands, but what is needed to maintain it is life. What he stresses is life. He refers to it at the very outset, the promise of life he was in the hope of it indeed. "Which God, who cannot lie, promised before the ages of time", Titus 1:2. Life is the real thing. Life is never to be theoretical; it is always real. That is the great point with John. 2 Timothy links on with John's ministry, assuring the maintenance publicly of 1 Timothy in the testimony of it.

And so in Philadelphia there is the outcome of all these things, for we have to understand the book of Revelation in its symbolical significance. It is a book of imagery. At the outset a blessing is offered to those who read and keep the things that are written. So that we are to understand, we cannot afford to miss the blessing. It would be interesting to follow up the word 'blessing' in Revelation, and see what a rich heritage there is that accrues to the

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reading and understanding of the things, and to the keeping of them. He is an overcomer. One of the greatest principles of the book is overcoming, hence the additional promises of blessing that are accorded to the overcomer in the different assemblies. Now the most casual reader of chapters 2 and 3 will notice that the overcomer of this assembly, Philadelphia, has the greatest blessing. It refers to our own time, and I urge upon you, dear brethren, to be alive to this. Let us not miss what there is for us. This assembly has the only promise to the overcomer involving writing upon himself. The overcomer in Pergamos has a stone on which a name is written, but it is on a stone, a white one; only on the Philadelphian overcomer personally is there any writing.

Now this is a very interesting and important fact, that I should be, and you should be, material upon which the Lord Jesus can write the very greatest things. And this material must be heart material, not external order, not mere intelligence. Writing is not in the head. I mean it is on the person, on him.

What a man he must be! What a person he must be! On him that overcomes, said the Lord, "I will write upon him the name of my God". If we understand that spiritually we shall see that writing involves a moral process spiritually. God will use what there is and make the very most of it. I have no doubt that is what is meant in regard to the first tables; they were made by Himself and the best He could get. And the writing is by Himself, and that is perfect. But they were breakable, and they were broken. He used what was there, a solemn reference to the state of man as he was then.

The second tables were hewn out by Moses, typically this indicates that the Lord Jesus came in in principle in the meantime and He had material that would be unbreakable. And that is so; the second writing is typical of the Lord Jesus. And so

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Moses hews them out himself, bringing them up the mount. Can we not see, dear brethren, what the Lord Jesus has done in hewing out the tables Himself and bringing them up, so to speak? And then there is an ark of wood so that they can be contained. But God said, 'I will write exactly what I want', but the material is the sign of the Mediator, that is Christ as a Man. And at the end of this book of Revelation He Himself is written upon (Revelation 19:16).

He would honour us by putting us upon that platform, the platform of impressionable material upon which God can write by His Spirit. So that the writing is obviously a moral process and that must be heart work. Hence Jeremiah tells us by the Spirit from the mouth of God that He would, in the new covenant, put His law in their inward parts. You cannot limit inward parts. Who knows the inward parts but God? He has made us, wonderfully made us; we have been curiously formed in the lowest parts of the earth. He knows every crevice of the inner parts. So that God can unqualifiedly put His law in there without any fear of it being damaged or adulterated. It is inner work that God is after now, and we do not want to miss it. "I will put my law in their inward parts", Jeremiah 31:33. Very much like the Lord, He put it in there Himself, and magnified it, and made it honourable. He was the true ark of the covenant. The idea is trustworthiness, involving protection, and magnification indeed of the law, so that it did not become a dead letter. It was made a living reality in Christ.

But now we are brought to correspondence with that, even in a higher way than Jeremiah speaks, for the Spirit of God sheds abroad the love of God in our hearts. The inner parts are taken possession of in a most blessed way. There is no retrogression at all with the living God taking possession of the inner parts. "The path of the just is as the shining light,

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that shineth more and more unto the perfect day", Proverbs 4:18. No man would ever say the former days were better than these. The Lord Jesus had not lost sight of the former days. They are maintained and, if I give them a place in my heart, all that was then is now, and more beside. So there is a moral process and that is the secret of the overcomer in Philadelphia, that he has gone in for greater things and is not content with the mere ABC of christianity (not minimising that, for the Lord is the Alpha and the Omega; we want to lose nothing). The overcomer in Philadelphia understands, he is a man that is the subject of the work of God in the heart in an inner way.

John understands that when the Lord says to Nicodemus, "Ye must be born again". You must be born throughout, the whole man has to be dealt with radically. Otherwise there could be no material upon which God, Christ, can write the very greatest things. The overcomer in Philadelphia is a man who has gone in for things. God has brought wonderful things to light in our time. How are we dealing with these things, what use are we making of them? We have wonderful writings, but that is not the idea of material. The best paper made will moulder and disappear, but not the material that I am speaking of. We may take the light of God in a shallow sort of way, but light will not always stand by me; I need heart work, and food, too, for constitution. And the overcomer in Philadelphia has gone in for these things, wonderful things. And the overcomer is not going to let one thing lapse, he will say everything is for him. It is the inheritance of the assembly.

And hence "the name of my God". What do you think the Lord Jesus means by that, the name of my God? What do you think Mary of Magdalene would say? She would say, 'I have heard the Lord Jesus use that very expression Himself', "My God

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and your God". Would she ever forget those accents, those words? What the Lord said would be indelibly impressed upon her. That is the idea, that His God is our God. Does that not enter into the inmost part of the being, the inner part, as the scripture says; such a precious fact that His God is our God? But then the writing is the name of "My God". Not simply the name of God, great and glorious as that name is; there is no greater name. There are those who assume that there is a relative inferiority in that name. No, there is no greater name than God over all blessed for ever. But here He is speaking as Man, He says "My God"; "I will write upon him the name of my God". How could He do that? The idea is a moral process in the soul, by the change of heart, the fleshy tables of the heart taking the place of the stony heart that we have naturally. Think, dear brethren, of having that name indelibly written by the Lord Jesus. But upon whom? Upon the overcomer of this particular assembly.

Then He says, "the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God". Think of that, "the city of my God". Notice the frequency of the word "my" in this verse; let us get near to Jesus. He would draw us near as His companions. If He sends the message through Mary to His brethren, He would draw near to them, "Come near to me" as Joseph said (Genesis 45:4). So that we should understand that word "my". How He regards things. And what is this city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God? What is this? Is it not that which the Lord is seeking to bring before us in our relations with one another? What the assembly is administratively, what it is maternally. What do we know about these things as administering a heavenly thing? And Jerusalem above is our mother. Need we be ignorant about it?

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No, we need not. The teaching of it is abroad, and has been for one hundred years. The overcomer in the Philadelphian assembly would die for these things. It is the new Jerusalem which comes down from heaven from My God. It comes down, it is the glorious liberty which it has, it can come down; but the point is, it is from My God.

And then finally the Lord says, "My new name". That is, He has got a new name. The Lord, I believe, has been greatly impressing on His people what is new. Not novelties, not that. Not imaginary things, but what is really new, that is to say, different. That is the idea, it is different. The name of Christ abroad, well, it is not new, it is public. As a matter of fact it has lost its power in the mouths and minds of unconverted people. The precious things that we get at the beginning are lost, they have become common. That is in the use of them in a profane way, the name of the Lord is profaned, has lost its power and character. The Lord Jesus makes everything new and fresh, for it is new, there is nothing about Jesus that is not new. The Lord Jesus brings in everything in living and spiritual freshness, and the overcomer understands, and hence the Lord can write -- for that is the idea (there must be a moral process in us, for there is nothing but unsuitable material unless the Lord makes us suitable) -- what things? His great and glorious things, "the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my new name". If we take these three things together I believe that sums up all that God has given to His people; all else is bound up in them. It is a question of the revelation of God and the assembly, which involves the Spirit and Christ.

These are the things, dear brethren, and the Lord Jesus is looking for the material, impressionable material on which to write these things. It is found

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in the overcomer in this remarkable assembly which the Lord addresses in a most unusual way, saying "thou hast kept the word of my patience", and "thou ... halt not denied my name. Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee". That is the assembly, that is what the Lord has in His mind. The overcomer in that assembly understands, and hence the writing, and, as I said, it is indelible.

May God grant to us to go in for realities, dear brethren, because He is not mocked.

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THE REVIVAL UNDER JOSIAH

2 Chronicles 34:1 - 33

J.T. We have more details of Josiah's reign in this book than in Kings. A comparison between the books of Chronicles and Kings brings out that in the latter his ministry was more negative, dealing with evil, but Chronicles brings out the positive side touching the highest point of recovery, I judge. The Lord in the current revival, that is, the one we are profiting from, had to do a good deal of a character of work which is not necessary now; the servant raised up was specially fitted to break up the evil. The positive side was also there, of course, but in latter times this has been more stressed; the ground was cleared in the early parts of the revival. There is much less said in 2 Kings about the passover and the service of the temple, emphasising that 2 Chronicles deals with the more positive side of the revival, the work of the service of God, and we have much more of Josiah's earlier service and ministry.

D.L.H. Was not one great feature of this revival the recovery of the Scriptures and the place they had before the mind and heart of the king?

J.T. That fits in with 2 Kings, but this book goes further in regard of the writings and the Scriptures. It stresses in chapter 35 the writing of David and the writing of Solomon, that is to say, it goes further as bringing in what suggests headship. You mean that the earlier part of the present revival was marked by the assertion of the authority of Scripture?

D.L.H. Yes; I thought there was a remarkable correspondence between that day and our own day. A hundred years ago the Holy Scriptures occupied much place as determining really the whole truth of God.

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J.T. Having thus the general thought, what may be noted is the earlier ministry of Josiah and its reward. It was while he was young and tender that we have his zeal in regard of the house, bringing the Scriptures into evidence, and then the word of the prophets, for it is not a prophet, but prophets, bringing out the solemn fact that the general judgment of God pending in regard of the great profession is not to be suspended or abrogated. However much there may be for God in a revival, the judgment attaching to the great decline is not abrogated, but there are those who are affected by the Scriptures and escape it, as in Philadelphia: "I will keep thee from the hour of trial". Then in the next chapter we find the place the ark has, as if it had lost its place, and the ministry of the priests as governed by the writing of David and the writing of Solomon.

Ques. What bearing would the writing of David and the writing of Solomon have on us now?

J.T. That comes in later. This is only a general outline, but it brings in the highest place to be reached, really corresponding with Ephesians.

A.M.H. Do you think this breaking down of what is contrary to God is done now? I was wondering what you would say as to fresh innovations which may come in in more or less limited areas and disturb christians outside. Do you think we have anything to do with that or should we leave it?

J.T. Since J.N.D.'s removal our service seems to be more positive, dealing with positive things. There have been attempts to deal with great public evils, but they do not seem to have had much support.

A.M.H. There was just an instance I have in mind and stand in doubt of, and I thought perhaps we might get some light on it. In a certain place it was introduced as entirely new that Sunday was not the Sabbath but the Lord's day and therefore we could do as we liked with it. It greatly disturbed

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the christians in the place, and I just wondered whether we should leave all that aside or whether there should be anything of this character to meet it.

J.T. The Lord seems to be blessing the brethren in positive ministry. It is positive testimony that He blesses and supports, as far as I can see. Of course, you would help souls wherever you meet them, but the feature of Josiah's revival as seen in Kings and touched on here was a general breaking up of evil. That is the general feature of 2 Kings; the passover and the positive side are more secondary there, having in view this book which brings out the positive side touching the very highest features of the truth, and I believe that is what is telling today.

A.M.H. So you would consider that anything coming in now is really apostasy from this position and you would leave it?

J.T. It is more Laodicea. The great ministry of the earlier days of the current revival placed Christendom under obligations. The whole of Israel, so to say, was reached, and that is what is in view here -- the whole of Israel, not simply Judah and Benjamin. That is the bearing of the early ministry and, of course, it ought to be so now in principle, but it is the positive thing that you would hope that God would carry through to the praise of Christ.

Ques. Does the movement of God with regard to Necho king of Egypt indicate that He pursues His ways in government entirely outside the assembly?

J.T. And he spoke from the mouth of God, showing he was under direction from God, so that it was a movement by itself. Josiah clashed with it, which, of course, was the difficulty.

Ques. Do you think it right to say that those who are occupied with the negative side, however energetically, have very little beside to give?

J.T. That is what you observe. I think the ministry of J.B.S., to be simple, was marked as

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keeping to the positive side. We have to observe the current of the Spirit, for he that has an ear has to hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies; we have to be governed by that, so we have to observe ministry that is accredited and see what it says, and there is guidance in it. The ministry following that of J.B.S. regulated the truth and was more in the form of teaching, having its own voice and carrying food for the saints. I think we ought to pay attention to that side, what the Spirit says to the assemblies. We see what the Spirit is saying, and we get light from that as well as food. There is no power in what is negative and it leads nowhere.

M.W.B. Do you think, in a general way, that those things you have referred to, the book of the law by Moses, and then the prophetic word, and then later the writings of David and Solomon, would show progress on positive lines?

J.T. That is very suggestive. The ministry following the one we have been speaking of (J.N.D.'s) had a prophetic character. We ought to be simple about it because what the Spirit said had its voice. It took that character and it would be like Huldah's ministry here. I do not mean it would be that exclusively, but it would have the general outline of it. Then you have the definite position of the king; he "stood in his place" (verse 31), and entered into a covenant and caused the people to stand to it. There was great moral power in causing the people to stand to it; and you would look for that in prophetic ministry, that Christ should be in His place, in the sense of exercising moral power through the ministry and causing the people to stand to it. We are to stand to the covenant; we are committed to something definite which precludes all independency. That is what comes out at the end of the chapter, and then chapter 35 is the opening up of the ministry Godward with a view to the passover and the holy ark -- a very

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beautiful expression -- being set in its place. It shows that a priestly state was developed and Christ was acquiring a place in that way which He had lost in the service.

P.L. Would that answer to the reference in Philadelphia, "These things saith the holy, the true", the Lord having His place now among them?

J.T. I think that points to a revival of a priestly state, as we were saying recently in connection with Peter's answer, "Thou art the holy one of God", John 6. That underlies the great service opened up in Hebrews which is, I believe, what the Lord would lay upon us at the present time, and which necessarily depends on a state of holiness amongst us.

M.W.B. In what way are those thoughts linked on together -- the law of Moses, the prophetic word and then the king having his place?

J.T. The idea of a dais is not mentioned here; it is just the king standing in his place. It is less official than in Kings. I think it alludes to moral power. That is, moral power is like influence; it is really greater than official power, because it implies that the Lord is acquiring power in His people in the moral sense. They are coming to see His greatness and that it is worth while to be subject, so that He has power enough to compel us to stand to the covenant. I do not see how we shall stand apart from moral power, and so in chapter 35 the offerings are those of the king and the princes, the great personages, that is to say, those who have moral power. That is much greater than formal official power or clerical power, for the man is really seen to be right in the influence he exercises.

D.L.H. Does the standing to the covenant correspond at all with the Supper today?

J.T. Well, I think so. I shall be glad to hear what you have to say about that.

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D.L.H. I thought it was so, and it is an interesting point that we are called upon to answer to the covenant in that regard.

J.T. You will remember some ten or twelve years ago how the idea of entering into covenant was refused or questioned amongst us. Well, it is a very important thing to stand to the covenant that we are committed to, not in a mere legal way, but because the thing is morally right. There is something worth while to stand to, and I think we are proving it.

J.J. Do you think the greatness of the passover in Josiah's day corresponds with the prominence that has been given to the Supper in our day?

J.T. I think so, and it was held on the day appointed by Moses. Josiah did not ask for any extension of time; he was ready. You remember Hezekiah held it in the second month, which would indicate a certain weakness or unreadiness, but this goes back to the primary thought of God, showing there was a state of readiness. The people made themselves ready; they were ready for the first month. It is too good a thing to put off for a month.

J.J. The scripture says that such a passover had not been since Samuel. It only goes back so far. Why is that?

J.T. Well, that is a good way back.

J.J. Not quite so far as Exodus.

J.T. No, but remember who Samuel was. I think we have to bear that in mind. It goes back as far as Exodus as regards the date but I have an idea that the passover gathered power as it went. That which the Lord Jesus partook of is the greatest obviously.

Eu.R. Would standing to the covenant involve also, in a general way, the principles of christian fellowship, standing in relation to the Lord and one another?

J.T. Well, quite so. The covenant suggests what

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God is, He who made it. Verse 31 of our chapter says, "And the king stood in his place, and made a covenant before Jehovah, to walk after Jehovah, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all his heart and with all his soul, to perform the words of the covenant that are written in this book. And he caused all that were present in Jerusalem and Benjamin to stand to it. And the inhabitants of Jerusalem did according to the covenant of God, the God of their fathers". And then it goes on to say, "all his days they did not depart from following Jehovah, the God of their fathers". That was a great point reached.

A.J.G. Does standing to the covenant promote what is priestly?

J.T. Obviously. I think the first point is that the king has moral power and brings them into a covenant to keep the primary one; that is to say, it is the idea of our committal.

P.L. So that you have tenderness of heart referred to in regard of Josiah. Would that answer to the fleshy tables of the heart in which we answer to the covenant?

J.T. Exactly. That is what I thought in alluding to the earlier ministry. It is made more of in this book than in Kings, because if God is going to reach a great end He begins early. Hence it is a question of each of us beginning early in tenderness. God builds up the structure in that way.

A.M.H. I notice this committal precedes the sacrifices. Is that not the right order, that committing ourselves afresh every Lord's day would lead to a more complete surrender of ourselves and all that we have, and would not that promote what is priestly?

J.T. Well, as was suggested, the covenant does promote what is priestly. It is the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. It is a holy love, but I think it is important to notice that there

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was great moral power in the king. He "stood in his place, and made a covenant before Jehovah ... to perform the words of the covenant that are written in this book". That is, he commits them beforehand under his own moral power to the idea of covenant: he brings them into a committal which has in view the words of the covenant written in the book, but what he brought in was additional to that. That is, it refers to something present, but including all that God had indicated earlier.

Ques. Is there any significance in regard of the covenant, in the cup being mentioned before the loaf in 1 Corinthians 10?

J.T. I think so; it is the greater of the two, in the sense that it brings in what God is. It is the real thing. It is not the love of Christ shed abroad in our hearts, but the love of God. It brings God in and it is a holy love, and that really underlies chapter 35, which is the great chapter which treats of service Godward.

F.S.M. Is the great secret of committal found in the words, "with all his heart and with all his soul" (verse 31); wholeheartedness and true affection being the objective of committal and all that would follow?

J.T. I do not think there would be many men among us without the idea of committal.

A.M.H. Do you mean committing others? It is done in faith and the energy of the Spirit so that others may be committed.

J.T. It is a question of the power you have. Looking at chapter 35 you will see what is meant. In verse 7 it says, "And Josiah gave for the children of the people a heave-offering of the flocks, lambs and goats, all for the passover-offerings, for all that were present -- to the number of thirty thousand, and three thousand bullocks: these were of the king's substance". Now you can see what moral power goes with that offering. Then it goes on, "And his princes

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gave a voluntary heave-offering for the people, for the priests, and for the Levites: Hilkijah and Zechariah and Jehiel, rulers of the house of God, gave to the priests for the passover-offerings two thousand six hundred small cattle and three hundred oxen". Then you have a number of names given, and then, the "chief of the Levites, gave as heave-offering to the Levites for the passover-offerings five thousand small cattle and five hundred oxen". Now we may be sure that is where the moral power lies; it is what a man has.

W.C.G. You mean moral power lies in the surrender?

J.T. Yes, and the volume that one has of spiritual power. A man is tested as to what he has got; it is not simply what one says, but what influence he has.

H.F.N. Is the same principle seen in connection with David? When David stood upon his feet what follows is not only what he gave but the wealth that was given by the princes on that occasion. Is that the same idea?

J.T. Yes. It is the wonderful lead that Christ gives typically in 1 Chronicles, the enormous volume of David's contribution. Moral power goes with that. The epistle to the Romans is the power that Christ exercises in a moral sense. Well, that leads on to headship so that we are delivered from mere officialism and we come to see the greatness of Christ, first morally and then in His Person, and then in Ephesians in His being set there by God, so that we see the gain of it and it has influence with us, and correspondingly as persons are formed after Christ they have influence. So the whole system continues in that sense governed by spiritual influence.

W.C.G. Does verse 3 give a right ideal in all levitical service?

J.T. "And he said to the Levites, that taught all Israel, and who were holy to Jehovah ...". Notice

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that. They were ready as instructed to put the holy ark in the house that Solomon had built. The covenant is brought in and there is moral power enough to cause them to stand to it. I believe that is the secret of what God is doing for us now, that is, without the principle of committal you cannot get full manhood amongst us.

M.W.B. I should be glad if you will develop that still further, as to how it leads on from committal to the thought of holiness, the holy ark, and that as giving leverage to the idea of headship. I was struck by what you said as to the "holy one"; is it the priestly and sanctuary idea?

J.T. I think it lies at the basis of Hebrews. I believe God would open up to us the great thought of the service of God in the assembly, and the element of holiness must underlie that. So Romans is the covenant in a positive sense, the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit given to us. I believe that is the basis of the service of God, so that in Hebrews we are addressed as "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling", not simply called to it, but partakers of it. It is an immense thought that we are outside the range of earth's influence and laying hold of the heavenly.

E.J.McB. Is that a question of state?

J.T. It is entirely. Peter's confession in John 6 indicates his state at that moment. He did not go beyond where he was, and that is the great point really. It was a question of Christ as "the holy one of God".

Eu.R. Do you mean that the confession that the Lord was "the holy one of God" would involve holiness in Peter?

J.T. Surely; he was making definite headway. It was no matter there of revelation as in Matthew 16, but it was a question of his progress of soul. "We have believed and known", he says. It referred to

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past experience with regard to Christ, the "holy one of God".

M.W.B. I was wondering, in connection with inability to enter into the thought of headship in the assembly and the oscillation to which you have sometimes referred, whether it is not because we are not established in the idea of holiness practically.

J.T. I do not know anything I am so defective in as holiness. It is not a question of light but holiness.

J.J. Do you think the reason why Paul had such a wonderful influence with the Corinthians was that he was prepared to sacrifice so much?

J.T. Well, just so. Those two epistles are a testimony to what we are saying. He caused them to stand to the covenant; that is really what was reached. The second epistle shows he brought them to the covenant, and that is where love lies. Romans in the normal course develops holiness: "ye have your fruit unto holiness", Romans 6:22.

J.J. And the bringing of the thought of the temple into Corinthians would mean that, would it not?

J.T. Yes; that is what we need. God does not need holiness. I mean, He is holy, absolutely so, but we need that fruit, "ye have your fruit unto holiness".

E.C.R. Would the committal in that way be seen in Romans 12, in presenting "your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God"?

J.T. Exactly. Applied to the body in chapter 6, "ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end eternal life". It is really "righteousness unto holiness", and Corinthians is to call them back to that "The temple of God is holy", 1 Corinthians 3:17.

H.F.N. How would you distinguish between the thought of the service of God in relation to holiness as presented to us in Romans and then in Hebrews?

J.T. Hebrews goes the whole way in regard to approach. We reach the minister of the sanctuary fully in chapter 8 and as soon as we get the light of

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the minister of the sanctuary the question is as to how we are going to get in, and the next thing is to open up the covenant, so that we are really holy by the application of the covenant, the holy love of God in our hearts. Hence the writer goes back to the idea of drawing near, and says, "Having therefore, brethren, boldness for entering into the holy of holies by the blood of Jesus, the new and living way which he has dedicated for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, and having a great priest over the house of God, let us approach", Hebrews 10:19 - 21.

Ques. Then would you say that holiness is the product of the action of the love of God shed abroad in the heart?

J.T. Surely. It has often been insisted on that it is not a matter of faith. Holiness is by the Spirit. It begins in that way to take a tangible form in the soul by the love of God shed abroad there by the Holy Spirit.

J.R.S. As you have spoken of it in Hebrews 10, why is it in chapter 12 we have the invitation in view of holiness?

J.T. That is an additional thing to help you.

Without it you cannot see the Lord.

M.W.B. There has been a good bit of care for some years in making a difference between the sanctuary and the assembly. I judge that you are bringing in the moral link in the thought of holiness and the sanctuary in relation to passing over to the privileges of the assembly. Would you explain that?

J.T. The service of God is now in the assembly.

It has not always been limited to that, but it is now, and so as we come together and sit together in affection, and as the Lord's supper comes before us according to its true significance there is movement, and in that God would seize the opportunity to bring in the idea of service. The sanctuary goes beyond the assembly; the idea of it is very wide.

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M.W.B. It is a wider thought, not higher?

J.T. It could not be higher than what is in the assembly, but it is wider. The Lord is "minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man". That is what He is up there, for He has "sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens". It is well to seize the idea of the magnitude of the sanctuary, and then to see how God brings it down to the present time, for that is what is in view in Hebrews. It is, "Let us draw near", and the opportune moment is when we are together in affection in assembly.

Ques. Is the sanctuary greater than the world to come?

J.T. Surely; but He brings it down now to where the atmosphere is suitable for it, and that is where the saints are together in affection and where the Holy Spirit is free.

C.H.P. Does the High Priest come in in connection with our spiritual state and does the minister of the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3) answer to it, so that we are formed after Christ?

J.T. I think that is so. Some of us were saying the other day that Luke does not give us any eating at the Supper; it is a question of memorial, you do not need special strength to call the Lord to mind. But Matthew and Mark speak about eating, and the blood of the covenant shed for many, so that power is needed, and hence you get eating stressed in both Matthew and Mark, and in those two gospels only you get the movement to the mount of Olives; and that is what underlies what we are saying. It is a question of appropriating Christ. "Take, eat: this is my body", and "Drink ye all of it". Let nobody miss drinking it, for God would bring all into it. It is the blood of the covenant shed for many and the power is great enough to bring many into unity, so that all are to go up to the mount of Olives.

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Ques. Would the spiritual silence you spoke of recently lead up to that?

J.T. I think it furnishes the atmosphere for it. The sanctuary now is a question of condition. However few, if the condition is there you get the sanctuary, and Christ will take His place amongst us.

J.J. What is the extent of the "true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man"?

J.T. It is the great universal system. We are told in Hebrews 9 that it was one of the "figurative representations of the things in the heavens".

G.W.W. Would you say that the underlying cause of the failure of all these revivals -- for they did all fail one after the other -- lay in the fact that the state of holiness was not induced in the people at large? The influence of the king held them for the moment, but as soon as that influence was gone, there was no formative work, nothing had taken place with them spiritually, and they at once lapsed to what was before.

J.T. As soon as the king is removed there is independence, but the love of God shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Spirit given to us holds us, and that is what affords conditions for the sanctuary hence the importance of hearing the word which the Spirit says. There is guidance in what the Spirit is stressing. He gives us the positive side in this particular revival according to this book, and we have to pay attention to that. So we have the passover on the first day. That shows that Josiah was a man that would pay attention to details. There are those who object to the idea of detail, but Josiah was a man of detail; he went back to Moses, but he did not stop with Moses, for he brings in the holy ark to be placed in the temple which Solomon had built not the tabernacle. That is, we are on the line of Ephesians here, not Corinthians.

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W.C.G. What is the meaning of the word, "ye have not to carry it upon your shoulders"?

J.T. It means it is not the wilderness, or the Corinthian side of things; he is dealing with the heavenly side, where there is no more bearing on the shoulders. We want to get the idea of Christ in relation to heaven, the "holy ark". People assume that Christ can be attached to all kinds of names and conditions, but He has been detached from all that. The ark belongs to the temple which Solomon the son of David built, and Josiah is concerned that it should be there.

W.C. What place did the oxen have in the sacrifices connected with the passover? The king and the princes and the priests all give in addition to the lambs and goats a certain number of oxen.

J.T. I think it is to bring out the wealth that was there. There is nothing said about them in Exodus.

W.C. Would they show the gain of the covenant in continuance?

J.T. It shows the gain of headship; it is the idea of wealth. Exodus puts the obligation for the material of the tabernacle on every Israelite. But it is not so here, nor in 1 Chronicles. It is the gift of the princes, persons of wealth, and it shows the gain of bringing in Ephesians, for that is where you get the unsearchable riches.

H.F.N. Would you say a word in regard of the writing of David and Solomon? David is referred to three times. You have the "ways of David", and then the "writing of David", and when the singers come in you have the "commandment of David". Would all these thoughts come in in headship?

J.T. I have understood that David is Christ in affliction, so that all that comes out in Solomon, that is Christ in heaven, has its correspondence in Christ here in affliction. It seems to give a peculiar touch to what came out in Christ in the time of His affliction,

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which ought to appeal to us more, but when you come to Solomon it is the same Christ only in glory, and it is His dignity, His greatness, His grandeur and His sonship that come into view. The two aspects run together in our apprehension and greatly tend to give lustre and tone to our worship. A suffering Christ is sure to produce holy feelings, and a glorified Christ produces spiritual liberty and dignity. There is the idea of the pathos that enters into the song as the suffering Christ is apprehended. Think of them joining in that song as they went to the mount of Olives surrounded by the murderous atmosphere. It touches a chord of feeling in our hearts, whether it be the ways of David or the writing of David, answering to what the Lord did with great deliberation here, so that it might be constant, as He says to His disciples, "The Comforter, the Holy Spirit ... will bring to your remembrance all the things which I have said to you". But then, there is the writing of Solomon, too. He is the son of David, which would be, I apprehend, Christ as He is in heaven.

Eu.R. Were you connecting those two writings with ministry?

J.T. Yes; it is the way the thing is brought to us. The writing of David and the writing of Solomon would be brought to us by the Spirit. Someone has been remarking that everything must be by the Scriptures. It must; Scripture must test everything, but we cannot limit the Spirit of God to the Scriptures. Not that the word of God is not complete, but we cannot limit the Spirit of God to the Scriptures. I mean to say, He brings out things and gives them a fulness and pungency that the Scriptures only guard. You have a divine Person here; see what He brings out if there is scope for it.

Rem. So that access in Ephesians is on a very high plane. "For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father".

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J.T. Exactly. Well now, you see in verses 7 to 9 the great wealth that comes in if headship is recognised. He ministered all the wealth that was available, and then in verse 10 we come back to the actual service. "The service was prepared, and the priests stood in their place". You have much of that idea of place -- the king in his place and the priests in their place. Then you have the passover properly roasted, and then the consecrated things that are to be boiled. It is the accuracy with which things are done in this holy service, so that you have roasting and boiling.

Ques. Are you looking at Josiah as representing the Lord in this acting or is it spiritual leadership?

J.T. I think it is the Lord as apprehended spiritually in the assembly. I think that is the first thought, and then the wealth that there is by the Spirit in the apprehension and the special attention given to the priests and the Levites. "His princes gave a voluntary heave-offering", we are told in verse 8, "for the people, for the priests, and for the Levites", as if they had in mind that there should be proper priestly and levitical service. We have the wealth of the king in verse 7; he "gave for the children of the people a heave-offering of the flocks, lambs and goats, all for the passover-offerings, for all that were present -- to the number of thirty thousand, and three thousand bullocks". Those were the king's substance, and then the princes consider for the people, for the priests and for the Levites.

Ques. Would you say something about roasting and boiling?

J.T. Roasting is direct action, as we know. It is the fire acting directly on the flesh. Boiling is indirect, that is to say, it is more what Christ is to us in the Supper. The judgment is there, but not emphasised.

C.H.P. Do the princes represent those that are

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spiritual amongst us, coming out exactly in the spirit of Christ?

J.T. I think the idea is to bring out the fulness of the wealth, and that is where you would expect to have it, first in the king and then in the princes. So that if the conditions are there you will get the wealth.

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COMMITTAL

Exodus 24:1 - 18

The reference to this chapter in Hebrews 9 says, "For every commandment having been spoken according to the law by Moses to all the people; having taken the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, he sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, This is the blood of the covenant". We reach the highest point here -- it is a chapter of elevation; it comes in at the end of a series of ordinances, beginning with the love of the Hebrew servant (chapter 21), that is, it begins with one who says "I love", and the end in this chapter is what God will do, in the way of elevation. The idea of committal on our part runs through the chapter, "every commandment having been spoken", they say, "All the words that Jehovah has said will we do".

In Deuteronomy we are told that commandments are a heritage; they are not a burden but a heritage. This enables us to see the full force of this chapter of Exodus. In the Hebrew servant you have love in a threefold way: I love my master -- that is ascending; I love my children -- that is descending; I love my wife -- that is horizontal love, as we may say. It is "the breadth and length and depth and height". It ensures an answer; love goes through the most difficult emergencies. It is a question of love working out here for the will of God in the most difficult circumstances, as suggested in chapters 21 to 23, which is a sure guarantee for every circumstance.

"They saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were work of transparent sapphire". They saw Him, and what was under His feet -- all transparent. The first thing is that we should commit

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ourselves unreservedly to the commandments of the Lord. As soon as the people say, "All the words that Jehovah has said we will do", what follows is that Moses wrote all the words of Jehovah, and rose up very early in the morning and built an altar under the mountain, and twelve pillars.

Chapters 21 to 23 show our circumstances down here, but this chapter is the going up; it challenges our hearts as to whether we are prepared to go up In going through difficulties here we will be tested; we have to deal with all these things, but it will not always be so, nor is it always so now; there is an exit from that, but it all has to be faced. Love in the Hebrew servant faces all such difficulties -- love in one that has had the ear bored and could have gone out free can face all difficulties. The committal in regard of the difficulties is more connected with the position in Romans -- it is the adjusting; everything is adjusted here before we can think of offering. The whole of Psalm 119 is the experience of a man devoted to the commandments of the Lord; and then in Psalm 120 and onwards there are those who will ascend! We may as well face these matters if we are to ascend -- all moral affairs have to be adjusted. Obeying from the heart, as in Romans 6. is in regard to the difficulties which have to be faced down here. It is obeying from the heart; there must be committal to what God proposes. The chapter is full of God's proposals, and the committal, on the ground of adjustment here, enables us to take it on. God is free to take us on, on that ground, too.

So the people committed themselves, and Moses writes the words as if their value is increased by the people's committal. Then it says he rose up and built an altar and twelve pillars; and then he sent the youths of the children of Israel and they offered up burnt-offerings and sacrificed sacrifices of peace-offerings of bullocks to Jehovah. It should be noted

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that this all follows the committal of the people. The words are made more valuable in that they can be written now that the people have committed themselves to them. The altar would imply that things are on the line of sacrifice, and the twelve pillars that there is unity; and then the youths would indicate that they are to be on the ground of freshness. The idea of committal is seen in the New Testament, leading up to what we get in 2 Corinthians 3, "looking on the glory of the Lord with unveiled face", and in Hebrews, the covenant in relation to the Minister of the sanctuary, so that we can draw near to God.

It is a question of whether we face these things. This chapter shows that Moses acts on their action. He declared the words and now what will they do? There is the committal. So he writes the words down as if they are now valid. Then he seals the signature, so to speak, so that the covenant is valid -- it must be accepted on both sides.

Unity in connection with the twelve pillars is an important side of the position, obviously. It comes in after the altar. Unity follows the acceptance of the covenant because it involves the love of God in our hearts, and where that exists we have the basis of unity, not simply unity as in Romans 12 where we are one body in Christ but unity in affection. One body in Christ is simply to show that we are not a body in the sense of freemasonry or Rechabitism, but that we are one body in Christ, and what underlies that is that we all have the love of God shed abroad in our hearts.

These difficulties referred to in chapters 21 to 23 would be in relation to us as together, not exactly as individuals. But we are not always dealing with those things; it is a poor thing if we are. There is adjustment for entering into assembly privileges, therefore there is the idea of coming together in assembly.

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Corinthians is the fellowship. The covenant is that God has unfolded His love to us, but fellowship is that we are committed to one another. Corinthians is the working out of chapters 21 to 23; Paul refers to the "commandments of the Lord" in 1 Corinthians 14.

Well then, there are the burnt-offerings and the peace-offerings; the first refer to God, sacrifice Godward; the peace-offering refers to what He is as known in our relations one with another. There seems to be a large appreciation (suggested in the bullocks) of our links with one another here. The peace-offerings were bullocks. The greater our spiritual appreciation of one another as being in Christ, the more we shall be ready for this elevation. There are the burnt-offerings and the peace-offerings here, not sin-offerings; that is to say, they love God, we are in love's circle; the altar and the pillars denote that.

Then the youths would allude to freshness, that heartiness, that spirit, amongst those who love God. It makes the thing attractive, full of freshness and heart! Then they proceed to offer bullocks, showing intelligent, hearty appreciation of Christ. Youthful ness denotes energy, and freshness, and heart. Then the peace-offerings show that peace is there, and freedom from personal feeling, and that we join heartily in what Christ is to God, and what He is to us. Then the blood is put into basons; blood is repugnant to the natural mind. But the blood of the covenant is very full; it implies death, not as anything repulsive to us, but as denoting love, testimony in love. Death is the full testimony of His love: there is abundance of testimony in love. His love covers the whole scene; descending love, ascending love, and horizontal love; to understand the length and breadth and depth and height, and to know the love of the Christ (Ephesians 3). The covenant brings us

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to a knowledge of God, and makes us responsive in affection.

It is a challenge to our hearts: is it worth our while to take on these commandments? Yes! "All that Jehovah has said will we do". Moses writes them, so that they have taken on a new value, they are written, they are worth writing. God's writings must be effective on the subjective side; He does not need to utter them for His own sake, but for our sakes -- unfolding His mind and will that we should know them. All that He says we will do, so in that way we commit ourselves. All that has come out in Christ would be a dead letter on earth but for the subjective side in us. God wrote on tables of stone, but that was not what was in His heart and mind; stone is hard material to write on, but what He had in His mind was the writing on the fleshy tables of the heart. So the New Testament brings out the kind of writing material that God has in mind; it is writing on the fleshy tables of the heart. The overcomer in Revelation has writing on him; it is mentioned in connection with Philadelphia, showing that they had understood the covenant, they had understood love, so there is writing material there, and on the overcomer is written "the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God ... and my new name".

A wonderful thing! And what is the unfolding of His mind for unless for that? Unless there is some response in us, it must all become a dead letter.

So Moses writes down the words after they have committed themselves; and then he built an altar and twelve pillars, and sent youths who offered sacrifices, etc. He must make it as attractive as possible. So here are these youths offering burnt-offerings and peace-offerings. What is written is that it may remain, and be made valid; the whole scene is made valid, typically it is final on the principle of the death and resurrection of Christ. There is plenty

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of testimony of love in death; it is the fulness of blood, not simply put on the lintel and the door-post; but in basons -- it is the fulness of the thing. There is no fleshly boast in this committal, it is a type, and has a full answer in the saints now; it is all leading up to the idea of elevation. So all this leads up to verse 9, "Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up". These are the noblemen. Although there was consuming fire on the top of the mountain to the eyes of the children of Israel, yet that is not stressed here. The love of God was known, and there are the lovers of God. The "thousands of them that love me" (Exodus 20:6) are the nobles, they belong to the nobility! So we see how the nobility went up and saw the God of Israel, and they saw what was under His feet, "as it were work of transparent sapphire, and as it were the form of heaven for clearness ... they saw God, and ate and drank".

Then verse 12 onwards is what transpired in the six days: "the glory of Jehovah abode on mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days; and on the seventh day he called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud ... . And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and ascended the mountain". It is a wonderful scene, and I think it suggests the mediator going in, the full thought of ascension. We do not ascend as Moses went up; we go up together, but he went up by himself. Moses going up here alone is more a figure of Christ. The six days denotes what marked the Lord before He ascended. The going up in verses 9 - 11 is before us that we might have ability to ascend, according to the mind of God, in the assembly. It is a question of ascension, that is the great feature of this chapter; there are other things, but all are subservient to the ascending. The cloud covered the mount six days, and on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud;

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they see him before he disappears, then the cloud covered him; he went into the midst of the cloud and ascended. That is a glory peculiar to Christ -- in all things He must have the pre-eminence, even in going up. In Ephesians He is gone "far above all heavens", that would be an untreated sphere; it would denote His deity. In Hebrews He is "passed through the heavens" (Hebrews 4:14) and "become higher than the heavens", Hebrews 7:26. But Ephesians is stronger than that because it says He is ascended far above all heavens. I do not think this in Exodus 24 so much denotes His deity, but He goes up in a unique way; we go up together. He went beyond where they went. But they went up and saw the God of Israel, and "there was under his feet as it were work of transparent sapphire, and as it were the form of heaven for clearness", literally the 'body' of heaven. In verse 12 the Lord says to Moses, "Come up to me into the mountain, and be there", and then in verse 15, "Moses went up to the mountain, and the cloud covered the mountain", and then again in verse 18 he "ascended the mountain", so you can see, typically, He goes beyond the saints. The highest elevation we can reach is the third heaven, but He goes up above all heavens! Psalm 24 links with this. But this passage foreshadows the position of the saints, but the saints see the God of Israel, which means that He comes down; and they see the body of heaven under His feet; but Moses goes beyond that -- that is, Christ figuratively goes beyond that. In Ephesians 2 we are raised up together and made to sit down together; that is what we are together. But in chapter 4 He ascends, there is power in Him, inherent power, but that is not so with us; we have not that power in ourselves. He descended first into the lower parts of the earth, and then ascended above all the heavens. In John 20 He said, "I ascend to my Father and your Father,

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and to my God and your God". He does not say, You are to ascend; it is His unique position. With the saints it is not inherent power; we shall be taken up, we shall be "caught up", it says. It is an important distinction, because it maintains the pre-eminence of Christ, and we must maintain that in every relation.

The elders suggest experience. But there is our going up, and then the mediator goes further. In the six days Christ is typically in full view, and then goes in on the seventh day. In the opening of the chapter, Jehovah says, "Go up", but in verse 12 He says, "Come up". Verse 9 shows that they accepted it, they "went up".

The privilege indicated in verses 9 - 11 we touch after the Supper normally. The covenant sets your heart free. There is plenty of evidence of love in the basons, the fulness of love. The Supper is the committal in that way, the covenant is accepted. So that the Lord says, 'It is the new covenant in My blood'; it would touch our hearts. And then the cup -- not in the sense of blessing altogether, but to eulogise -- we praise what is in it. Matthew and Mark only give the eating, "Take, eat; this is my body. And having taken the cup and given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it. For this is my blood, that of the new covenant, that shed for many". Not 'for you', not in the sense of the church, but for many persons. The meaning is that in Matthew and Mark; it is not simply that we remember the Lord -- they do mention what Luke does not mention, that is the going to the mount of Olives, and that corresponds with this movement in verse 9 of our chapter; it requires strength of heart to make that movement. They sang an hymn and went to the mount of Olives. Matthew and Mark mention the eating and the drinking as furnishing the strength and support in our souls.

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There is no limit to Christ's ascending; He is gone far beyond all heavens; we do not know how far He has gone. But we shall never lose sight of Him, in a general way, though we cannot limit Him. It is important to accept things as Scripture presents them. I cannot say that I can see Him there if He goes far beyond all heavens! In relation to the mediatorial system we shall ever have Christ in view. But liberty belongs to divine Persons; He was not always in the view of His own while down here, neither was He when He rose from the dead -- He came in and went out among them, it says. You cannot limit a divine Person, but that does not alter the general fact that God is ever present even now amongst the saints. Eternity will be that we will be filled unto all the fulness of God, but we cannot limit divine Persons. We will ever be finite, but we are brought into an environment of infinitude. When He went into the house of the two that were going to Emmaus, He vanished out of their sight; He never came in through closed doors when He was here in the days of His flesh, yet He always reserved His own liberty -- He went out early in the morning, He went out at night, He went to the mount of Olives -- He was not always with His own. We should understand that He can do things by speaking, as well as with His hands. What will it be in eternity when we are in the environment of infinity, and we finite! We will never be anything else; things will pass before us, but we will be in fixity, filled unto all the fulness of God.

Moses as the mediator, going up alone, is a striking figure of Christ in this chapter; but he is going up in relation to the people, that is the idea of a mediator -- He is going up in relation to us. He holds us in relation to a divine system; He holds everything.

The thought of the nobles is to bring out the dignity of the saints; the term is used when they are on the mountain. In verse 1 when they are called to go up

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the mountain, it is simply the names and the seventy elders, but when they are up there they are called "nobles" (verse 11). It is like Hebrews, "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling", Hebrews 3:1.

Then it says there was work of transparent sapphire under His feet, indicating that God was above. There is transparency. This chapter is the end of divine overtures; it shows what He has in His mind for us. What follows in this book relates to the building down here, which is to be in accord with what is seen on the mount. The assembly is to be a heavenly institution.

The eating and drinking is suggestive of enjoyment, and they had liberty to do it. There was enjoyment there, in liberty. "On the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand", that is, they were immune from judgment -- "They saw God, and ate and drank". Seeing God involves the Mediator; it is only in Christ that we can see God. "Man shall not see me, and live", He says in another place. How can we define what they saw? They saw what was intelligible to them. All this bears on Christ becoming Man, so He says, "He that has seen me has seen the Father". This was not on a special occasion, but all the time He was with them: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?" He says.

As seeing Moses, typically, go up in this unique way, our hearts would be impressed with the greatness of that Person. There is a sense in which He has companions who would like to make a place for Him; but the One who has companions is ever unique in His own Person, and can go where they cannot -- that is what comes out in the Acts, "the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven". He was taken up and a cloud received Him out of their sight. We will go in another way, He comes for us. He

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ascended (verse 18) but we go up (verse 9). These are the words in the New Testament.

We are in the environment of infinitude, and that keeps us in our place, and makes us watchful. God has come into my view -- I am ever a man, but "filled even to all the fulness of God". I am in fixity.

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LOVE

1 John 3:11, 14, 16; Esther 3:8, 9; Esther 4:1 - 5, 10 - 17; Esther 5:1 - 3; Esther 10:3

I have been thinking, dear brethren, of love. We have been reminded of it today in our consideration of Exodus, and how in the type of the Hebrew bondman we have it in its ascending feature, love for his master; and in its descending feature, love for his children; and in its horizontal feature, love for his wife. I wish to speak of it now in the latter aspect, for it is that feature that promotes mutual feeling, love for the brethren, love for the brethren developing into love for the brotherhood.

I wish to show how this leads to the full test, and our answer to it in the laying down of our lives. In this we correspond to Christ as seen in the wonderful type, so well-known to us, the type of the Hebrew bondman. He leads the way in love in all its phases, going so far as to death, having His ear bored at the door, so that He remains a bondman for ever -- His master's bondman. He leads the way in love, as in all else, and in love, as we have noted already today, that meets successfully every exigency or emergency of the testimony, every difficulty. Love never fails! And it will not fail in its relation to the brethren. Now this chapter in John's epistle brings out the idea of the brethren; not simply 'brethren', not simply 'Christ's brethren' as elsewhere, but 'the brethren'. There are such in this world; they are said to be God's children; they are called that. In this epistle we have the children of the testimony in chapter 2, as we may say, 'John's children'; and in chapter 3, the children of God -- "See what love the Father hath given to us, that we should be called the children of God. For this reason the world knows us not, because it knew him not". But we are

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called that. In the gospel of John we have title to take that place as before God, and before men, too; but in the epistle we are called that, and that is the manner of the love. The children of God are also the brethren; not here the brethren of Christ, that is not the point, but the brethren, persons of that distinction. The very great fact that there are such, dear brethren, and their prominence and importance, their quality, are indicated in the fact that as loving them we know that we have passed out of death into life. Any of us here who does not love the brethren, does not know that! We may speak of it, and quote the Lord's words that "he that hears my word, and believes him that has sent me, has life eternal, and does not come into judgment, but is passed out of death into life", John 5:24. We may quote that, but that does not give me consciousness of the transition, of having passed out of death into life; whereas love for the brethren does. Hereby "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren". Not the persons we meet in society, not our relatives after the flesh, but the brethren, these people. Other scriptures show us what they are, what marks them, but this scripture assumes that they are known, "the brethren".

Peter tells us to "love the brotherhood", which would mean the same persons only in other conditions, like the Jews, of which I hope to speak presently, who banded themselves together in the province of Ahasuerus, against their enemies; they could not be withstood. So that there should be no fear with such a people. If we view them as the brethren, we view them in family relations and affection. If we view them as the brotherhood, they are irresistible -- they cannot be overcome. So being amongst them, and loving them, is the position we covet -- it is a state and condition to be coveted -- to love them and be of them.

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Well now, I want to show from Esther how this works out, how in loving them and laying down our lives for them, we are promoted spiritually. Promotion spiritually is an aspiration to be encouraged, would there were more of it, and less aspiration of material promotion! They do not go together, beloved; one destroys the other. So that John tells the one to whom he writes the second letter, that he wishes that he should prosper and be in health as his soul prospereth. An excellent balance! Any material prosperity is detrimental, and is material upon which the enemy will not fail to act to our detriment.

Now as I said, I want to show from Esther how this works out. How love for the brethren, and martyrdom, if need be, for them, involve spiritual promotion. So I refer to the word "Jew" in this book as suggestive of the brethren in reproach, for they are in reproach if they are truly in the state and position of brethren. The world knows us not as children, and we are not to marvel if it hates us; it hated God, it hated the Father and the Son -- such is the world. It is futile to dwell on the inconsistency of hating us without a cause, it is waste of time; the flesh will ever hate us without a cause, even in persons known to be christians. It considers not consistency at all. So the Lord says, "They hated me without a cause". We are not to marvel about the hatred. It implies that we are 'Jews'. As the word 'Hebrew' in Exodus signifies the reproach of Christ attaching to His people, so the word 'Jew' in Esther signifies the same in other, although very similar, circumstances.

So I take up the idea of the 'Jew' in Esther as denoting this feature. According to Romans the apostle says the Jew is not a Jew who is one outwardly in the flesh, but he is a Jew who is so inwardly, in spirit, whose praise is of God and not of men. Circumcision is in the spirit, it is a spiritual idea, it

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is a Colossian idea. There are those who say they are Jews and are not; but there are those who are.

The Lord deals with those who are not; they lie, they are of the synagogue of Satan; He says to Philadelphia, "Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee", Revelation 3:9. Notice that: "before thy feet".

Thus the Jew in Esther is the believer in reproach.

Mordecai is said to be a Jew. He was in the palace, he was there in the government of God; his genealogy is given so that we might know that he had a pedigree although in the palace of Shushan. We are told that he was a Jew, and that he had a pedigree, and then we are told that he was a man of family affections. A great feature in John's ministry is family affection.

So that he had such family affection as led to sacrifice; he took Esther up as his daughter -- his cousin as we speak -- evidently much younger, but in an unselfish, family way, he took her as his own daughter -- a very tender way to take up those who are parentless.

That is Mordecai the Jew, that is to say he is that, he represents that in a very positive and full way.

'Mordecai the Jew', that is to say, a brother marked by family affection and unselfishness. I do not mean natural family affection brought into the house of God; Nehemiah calls that "household stuff". That is not Mordecai at all. He is 'Mordecai the Jew', a sufferer in reproach.

Well now, I have read to you Haman's description of the brethren. It is not heaven's description of them, it is Haman's description, but he is forced to say some things that are true. There can be no mistake as to who these people are, our enemies themselves being judges; there is something there that is distinctive. Haman would have them

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destroyed, and was almost successful in his efforts, but there was Mordecai the Jew, a man who takes his life in his hands for the brethren, and the result is that Haman goes down and Mordecai goes up!

There is no God in sight in this book; even prayer is not mentioned in this book, and yet there is a most wonderful evidence of divine working! One of the most striking features of the book is seemliness, that is to say, God is not brought in where the circumstances of His people are dishonouring. We speak to Him, of course, we seek Him, of course, but make no parade of a God in such circumstances. The circumstances deny Him, as though He were asleep, and truly He was in figure, as when the ark was in the Philistine land, when it says, He "awoke as one out of sleep", Psalm 78:65. But there is not a word of that in Esther. God never actually sleeps: "he that keepeth Israel will neither slumber nor sleep", Psalm 121:4. He is ever vigilant, but He knows how to keep out of sight, and those who love Him know how to keep Him out of sight too, if the circumstances are dishonouring.

So Haman apparently was successful in his efforts, but Mordecai the Jew stands out when he heard of the awful disaster that was pending on the brethren.

Are there not some here that know something of brethren's disasters? There are! Some of us, many of us, here do not know war; God would teach us war, it is one of the features of our education. As the psalmist says, He "teacheth my hands to war, my fingers to fight", Psalm 144:1. The disasters of our brethren are most sorrowful, but this is a threatened disaster, one that never occurred! Often God allows things to come so near that we gain by them just as if we had passed through them. It is His way. If He brings things into evidence as pending, it is well to go through them anticipatively. We gain the

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lesson and the sorrow never occurs! Such is our God! Such is the school of our God!

So Mordecai hears of the decision of the king, and he puts on sackcloth and cries with a loud and bitter cry. Where does he cry? In his own house? No, it does not say that; he cries in the city, in the gates of the king. He put his life in his hand when he might have shielded himself and shirked his responsibility; he took his life in his hand and garbed himself in sackcloth and cried. It is a very solemn matter, beloved brethren, as to our relations to the brethren, what they are worth to us; are they worth laying down our lives for them? I know what they were worth to Jesus; He laid down His life.

Well now, I want to show you that in thus taking up this attitude, we lead others on. That is one great feature in christianity, the feature of leadership and influence. We do not want to go alone, we want to carry the brethren. If we love them we do not wish them to miss anything, if there is promotion we do not wish them to miss it. There is plenty to do, you know! Belshazzar would have Daniel understand that he could promote him, but Daniel said, "Let thy gifts be to thyself". There are plenty of them with God! He can promote, He has honours of His own to bestow, and we do not wish the brethren to miss them. The apostle Paul spoke about a crown of righteousness that was laid up for him, and not only for him, but for all who love the appearing of Jesus. It is not the rapture, as we say, but the appearing; "all who love his appearing", 2 Timothy 4S. So we do not want the brethren to miss anything. There is great promotion ahead. Esther was queen, but on sufferance, a poor position! We do not want a position like that. I am not disparaging her place, it was under the government of God, but she was consciously on sufferance, on a sandy foundation! Mordecai would lead her on further. She would

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seek to modify the reproach, which is always evident in unspiritual or half-hearted people amongst us.

She would say, Do not be so extreme, do not wear sackcloth, do not put ashes upon your head! She could afford to wear other clothes; I do not suppose she had any sackcloth in her wardrobe. I wonder if the sisters keep sackcloth in their wardrobe? Mordecai had it, apparently, but Esther sent other raiment; she would have him take off the sackcloth and wear other clothes. She would defeat the whole position in the book. It shows what half-hearted people are, persons who do not go all the way.

But Esther was not immune from the influence of a spiritual man. "A brother is born for adversity".

How admirable is his message to her, for she was only a Jewess. It was her glory, although concealed for the moment; like many of us she concealed that which was her true glory, and put on something else; that is of no honour at all, it is degrading spiritually.

Now Mordecai says, Do not think that you will escape; who knows but that you are raised up for this very purpose; and mark you, if you do not act, somebody else will. God is not bound to act through you, but it is your privilege. He may have to get somebody else, but He appeals to you. Is your place in court of any value if the brethren are destroyed Where will you be? Will you be content to be alone in court, in your social relations? Can you get along without the brethren? Somebody else will come forward if you do not. Mordecai says, Will you shirk your responsibility? It is an appeal to come forward and identify ourselves with the brethren in their reproach -- whatever it may involve, even the cost of our lives.

Esther understood, she sent back word, she was not blind to the fact that it did mean possibly her life, "If I perish, I perish", she says; and she begged Mordecai and his companions to fast with her and

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her maidens for three days. You see the seemliness, the comeliness of this woman; she says nothing about prayer. Can we doubt that she understood the word? Doubtless she did, but they all had such a sense of the reproach, and how God was dishonoured by the whole position that they were secret in regard of God. They understood the mystery -- becomingly!

So she takes her life into her hands and goes into the court of the king's palace, and is accepted. She went the right way, she went the way of death, beloved; there is no other way; both she and Mordecai went through death in their spirits -- laying "down our lives for the brethren". Well, the result shows that the movement was successful. I do not go over that; you are no doubt conversant with the history of Mordecai, but what I want to show now is the promotion. Do not think that it is not worth something; it is, beloved. Divine promotion is to be desired.

So in the last chapter you have Mordecai's promotion, but in the previous chapter Esther stands out peculiarly. She does not lose her queen-ship, she remains queen; it was hers under the government of God, and she adorns the position in a moral sense; she lays down her life for the brethren. What comes out in chapter 9 is the establishment of a great feast among the people of God. This is something to be noted, for every divine movement, every divine deliverance of the people of God, establishes a landmark. How great a thing it is to have part in a divine landmark! Those of us who have been through things understand what landmarks are. There are the ancient landmarks, without saying who set them up, that are not to be removed, they are all to stand; they represent the cumulative effect of the testimony, and they stand in the souls of the spiritual. There are the ancient ones, and then there are the ones that are afterwards set up; these are most interesting. The great outstanding epochs in the history of God's

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service are not to be removed. We should challenge our hearts if we appear to set aside anything that God has given, and be careful as to what we may think is not divinely given, for we must not move the landmarks of our fathers; they refer to great spiritual epochs and the outstanding results of the assembly.

We know what the world makes of ancient things the world is dotted with symbols of these unhallowed things; the whole world is dotted with memorials.

I only refer to that to explain. Are there any spiritual ones? There are; they are most interesting. They are not to be interfered with; they represent what is cumulative. What we want is to establish a land mark, not to set up something for our own distinction; it is the outcome, the inevitable result, of an exploit.

So a feast is set up by the decree of Mordecai and Esther; on the fourteenth and fifteenth days they rested and made them days of feasting and joy. So it was established that they should keep the fourteenth and fifteenth days of the month of Adar yearly, "the month that was turned to them from sorrow to joy; and from mourning into a good day", a disaster that turned to a most signal victory! That is a landmark!

It is added to the many that have gone before. How great an honour it is to have part in the establishment of a landmark! Who has part in it? Those who love the brethren, those who lay down their lives for the brethren! How great an honour!

Now we come to the last chapter; Esther is not mentioned, Mordecai is the great feature of the book.

He has established his promotion, next to the king; he has reached that position on moral grounds, a wonderful spirit of devotedness, may we cherish it more! He is great amongst the Jews, amongst the despised people; a thousand times greater than to be great amongst the people of this world, which is what most aspire to. The less the heart aspires to, the better; a name in this world, a little bit of glory

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like Simon Magus, like Alexander and Diotrephes and others. The one Person to be pre-eminently great is Christ. "He shall be great!" All other greatness is nothing. All promotion is on the line of sacrifice. Those who are great are under the reproach of Christ's name. Not that Mordecai made a point of being great himself; it was the outcome of his devotedness for the brethren -- "great among the Jews", a despised people, who would have found no entrance in many houses, in society, but they are great morally, and they remain great, their greatness goes through! What other greatness does?

So Mordecai is great amongst the Jews, and accepted of all his brethren; he served them well; he laid down his life for them. Well they might think him great and acceptable! But now they are his brethren -- not simply the brethren, they are his! They formed themselves into a band and no one could withstand them; that was the brotherhood. But now they are his brethren, belonging to him in family relations, and he is acceptable to them all. What a great thing that is! There is no doubt that such devotedness brings about acceptance among the brethren. If one is not acceptable among the brethren, it is very likely he has not laid down his life! We do not want to be men like Absalom who had no male seed, who would erect a monument to himself, a poor thing! Mordecai has seed, and he speaks peace to them; he passes on peace -- like Jesus, "Peace unto you". There is participation in that, "I leave peace with you; I give my peace to you", John 14:27. The Lord bless His word.

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LIFE

Romans 6:4; Romans 8:10, 11; 1 John 3:14; Exodus 8:16 - 19, 22, 23

These scriptures speak of life -- a subject that runs through Scripture. Life appears first in the scriptural order in vegetable form, a form of life that persons who reside in the country are specially conversant with. Then it appears in animal form, first in fishes and birds -- certain relations exist between them -- and then in cattle and then in man. That is the order in which it appears in Scripture. Each of these features in Genesis 1 may be worked out in the New Testament in a spiritual sense, because that is what is in the mind of God -- what we get in Genesis is but preliminary. God had a spiritual order of things in His mind from the outset, and in all these features there is reference to corresponding features spiritually. But there was the order, and you can see how great a place life had; without it the physical creation could be of little interest, all had life in view -- God is the living God.

Having said this in a preliminary sense, I wish to trace the thought in a simple way in these scriptures, so that each may test himself by them, as to how far he has progressed on the life line, for the way of it is said to be upwards -- it is not on the level of man's world -- "The path of life is upwards for the wise",

Proverbs 15:24.

So, beginning with Romans we have the initial idea, not in the internal working out, but in the external evidence of it. We are tested by whether the evidence of it is with us or otherwise.

The Lord said that He was the light of the world: "He that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life" -- we are to understand

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that it is the light of life. There is light in a wider sense, God is light -- that is a wider thought, but the light of life is most practical and it shines on those who follow the Lord Jesus. It comes in after the woman is brought to the Lord, as guilty, by the leaders of the Jews; the Lord did not condemn her but said, "Sin no more". There was doubt as to her. The evidence of certainty of her faith is not present. Many take the ground of faith and of having received benefit from the Lord, as the man in John 5; he was made perfectly whole, yet the Lord says, "Sin no more". He did not say that to the woman of Sychar, or to the man in chapter 9, or to Lazarus whom He raised from the dead. So when the Lord says, "Sin no more", there is a shade of doubt as to you or me, and so the light of life comes into evidence. Life is the telling thing. It is indisputable as a test -- there it is, there is the evidence; it cannot be disputed. It belongs to the things that accompany salvation, so the apostle has this in mind in Romans. The Roman christians did not live in the country -- they lived in the capital of the world in that day in which the leading ideas of the world were known, the fashions, the mannerisms, the etiquette, the formalities, all that went to make up life in this world, in the imperial seat. Now what is the test to be?

Take Rome today -- the representation of Christianity is not now there -- the life of the Pope, of the cardinals, is not new. Hierarchical Christianity is just the world with another name. There is nothing new in the Vatican. I mention that by way of contrast that you may see in your mind the company of people who received this letter. It was sent by a devoted woman, Phoebe; she came from a small town, from Cenchrea. She had the marks of life, she was a living sort of person. She would not carry ideas from the east to instruct the sisters of Rome in the latest fashions. She would read the letter on the

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way, "Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God", Romans 12:2.

So as the letter was read, they would arrive at this section, newness of life. It signifies that there is no other life like it; it is not some old thing as the wheel goes round again; there was never anything like it.

It was nourished in the presence of the glory of the Father, not the glory of the imperial court but the glory of the Father. Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father that we should walk in newness of life. Think of the lustre of christian virtues and traits as over against worldly glory centred in the imperial court! Some of the Lord's people were in Caesar's household, but if it was only as a slave, one could adorn the doctrine; mark the word 'adorn'.

Caesar could not adorn the doctrine of our Lord Jesus Christ and yet the meanest slave could adorn it.

The adornment that he could put on it would survive as the glory of this world passes away -- he that does the will of God abides for ever in his lustre, so the word is "love not the world, nor the things in the world", for all these things, "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" are of the world and not of the Father. The Father has raised Jesus and the answer to that is in a walk in newness of life. There has never been anything like it before.

The naturalist studies all kinds of life, but this is outside the range of the naturalist. It was there in the christians in Rome, however humble they may have been, however small their meeting room, this element was there, newness of life, something in which to walk; it is not yet a question of enjoyment but of walk.

This new thing was now in Rome though it had never been there before; it corresponds with the glory of the Father. When His beloved Son lay in

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death, when the Lord of glory lay in death, what was it to the Father? What those three days were to the Father! Well may Scripture speak of the earliness of the morning of the resurrection! There was no delay. There may be delay in judgment; it speaks of the harvest being fully ripe, but there is no delay in the coming of the Lord and there was none at the resurrection. Those three days involved suspense in heaven; may I say it reverently? You may say there was a blank everywhere. He was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father. Who can define that? The corresponding thought in us is that we also should walk in newness of life.

That is the general thought; it requires much secretly before we arrive at it that we may walk in newness of life, something that was never there before. It corresponds with Exodus chapters 16, 17 and 18, especially chapter 16, where the manna comes down -- a new food. Why are these people so different? Their food is different! The word means 'What is it?' And who are these people? "The world knows us not", 1 John 3:1. Christ is unknown by the world and so are His followers -- a new thing entirely. How God's heart was interested in that period, those early days of the walk in the wilderness! Chapter 15 is typical of the resurrection of Christ; it is the celebration of it, it was delightful to God. But the bitter waters follow; they speak of baptism and the flesh does not like them. The people murmured, but the Lord showed Moses wood. The young believer has got to be prepared for things to be shown.

It was Christ in a new way. Things are shown in the presence of the glory and the waters are made sweet. Then you get the seventy palm trees and the twelve wells of water, then the manna and then the smitten rock. These are the secret of this new thing in us.

Chapter 8 speaks of the Spirit. He is introduced in Romans in a most delightful way as shedding the

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love of God abroad in our hearts. Dwell on that precious service of the Spirit. It is well to challenge our hearts as to this operation. In chapter 7 the believer finds his feet, so to speak, in his own establishment, I myself serve the law of God, that is the resolution, and the Holy Spirit comes in in all His power to support me in that.

"If Christ be in you"; it is hypothetical here, it is if that is so, "the body is dead on account of sin". God is bringing to an end sinfulness in the believer.

Sin is there but not in its actions. The body is a corpse, so to speak. The believer is viewed as having a body and surroundings in which he is responsible to God and the Spirit is life.

I would ask you to look into this, because you will have some very dark days unless you understand this verse; what is possible to the believer, and what the Holy Spirit will do for you. He is life, a new power, a new inmate in the house, and you can rely on Him. He is infinitely powerful. The Spirit is power for life in view of righteousness. The scarcest item in the world today is practical righteousness. The Lord Jesus loved it -- He has loved righteousness and hated lawlessness therefore God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness above His companions; God honoured that element. So the Holy Spirit is in us as life, superior to things here so that I can fulfil practical righteousness. One is enabled by the Spirit to discharge every obligation. The character of God is reflected in the saints. It is what Christ loved, and what God would have in us in a practical way in the power of the Spirit. It is a most important feature of life.

John's epistle is especially intended to unfold the subject of life in christians. The gospel unfolds it more in Christ, but the epistle unfolds it in christians.

"These things have I written to you that ye may know that ye have eternal life", 1 John 5:13. In the

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gospel he says, "these things are written, that ye might believe", but in the epistle it is "that ye may know"; it is consciousness. No one can rob you of it.

"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren". It is the simplest, and yet the surest, test. If anyone doubts his possession of the divine nature let him consider how he regards the brethren. Is he content to dwell apart and not to have their companionship? If this is so Paul says 'I stand in doubt of you' and you may well stand in doubt of yourself. You want to be sure of things and so Peter says, "In your faith have also virtue" and adds a list of these things which may be abounding (2 Peter 1:5). Things are made sure to you, but without this you are in a miserable state. Satan lashes you in that state or tempts you with the world.

So you can test yourself as to what the brethren are to you; I cannot believe you love the Lord unless you love the brethren. You cannot expect the brethren's confidence unless you love them. How great a thing it is that there is such a company in the world as the brethren! They get together when they can, and they are not in a hurry to get away from each other. There is love. In Acts 2, at the beginning of the chapter, they were all together in one place; it was then that the Holy Spirit came upon them. At the end of the chapter they were all together although not in one place. They were together in heart; it was only circumstances that hindered them being together in one place.

We are bound up vitally, dear brethren; we know that we love the brethren and that is a wonderful testimony to God in this world. The Lord says to the leper, "go, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift which Moses ordained, for a testimony to them" (Matthew 8:4), not simply to the priest, but to

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them. God knows how to hold people responsible. "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", John 13:35. It is confirmatory to my heart that I love the brethren but it is a testimony outside -- they cannot get away from it. Daniel said to Belshazzar, "Thou knewest all this".

Then the lice in Exodus are a type of what I have been speaking of. They are made to live out of dust by the power of God. Moses is not directed to advertise Pharaoh as to this plague, nor is it said to be removed. We do not want it removed. It is a question of the testimony of life, all the dust of Egypt. God turns it into life, the dust of the world, that which is despicable becomes most powerful. These gnats are not destructive; they do not kill, like thunder or hail, but they are on man and beast. They deal with life and flesh and blood. All are dealt with and the plague is not removed. Let us remember this. It is not a case of endeavouring to be something in a locality in the eyes of men. Remember the dust is made to live; it is what is despised, it is all the dust, nothing else.

The magicians, the religious leaders, could not do this. They failed, they could not do it and they say so to Pharaoh. God brings in a testimony that cannot be imitated. Persons who are of no account at all are made to live. The man and beast are brought down to the same level in regard to this matter. It is a testimony to him, day and night, and it is not removed. If the world only knew, it is an advantage to have these things to make them uncomfortable that men should turn to God, and that shows the importance of christians walking in newness of life. Men do not like them. Haman would have destroyed the Jews, they were a plague in his account, and so, in the account of this world christians are a plague. God will remove us presently, though He

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will never leave Himself without a witness, the plagues go on and on.

The finger of God is the Spirit of God working in detail and in power. God makes His people a living testimony in this world. He makes a distinction in the land of Goshen. You are under the eye of God for protection there. "I will distinguish in that day the land of Goshen". We are marked off, dear brethren, we are marked off as alive. He puts "a separation" (or 'a redemption') (verse 23) on His people. He has redeemed them to Himself.

We need this spiritual teaching not simply that we should meet together on the right ground but that we may have this new thing, this newness of life, which is a testimony to God in this world.

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THE EFFECTIVENESS OF PAUL'S SERVICE

Acts 19:1 - 10; Acts 20:7 - 12

I was thinking of the prominence the Spirit gives to certain incidents in these chapters as bearing upon the end of the dispensation, and the two scriptures referred to bring out the thoughts that one had, beginning with Lydia, in chapter 16, of whom it is said that the Lord opened her heart to attend to the things spoken by Paul. We see the gain derived from Paul's ministry. These things are specially to be attended to. Each minister had his place, but Paul had a special place of service and authority in that way, authority because of his superiority, not only as an apostle, but there was a certain superiority which the Lord had bestowed on him, involving, as he writes to the Philippians, what was "more excellent"; so that Lydia would stand for that side, the side of appreciation of what Paul says.

What is to be noticed in this section is the effectiveness of his service; not only as laying the foundation, with Barnabas, in the localities visited, but in the confirmatory character of his second visits; as is said in chapter 15: 41, "he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches", and in chapter 18: 23, "strengthening all the disciples".

Coming to chapter 19, we have the feature of linking on the work of God with what may be current.

An important principle in the assembly is linking on what God is now doing with what He has been doing.

Chapter 18 shows us that Aquila and Priscilla valued what was there, and they proceeded at once to link on Apollos with what had preceded; then the apostle recognises what is there. The ministry they had profited by earlier is linked on with what is coming.

The principle running through the book is that there

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should be one tabernacle, and every bit of that must be God's work, through whomsoever it may be effected.

The apostle asks the disciples at Ephesus, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed? And they said to him, We did not even hear if the Holy Spirit was come. And he said, To what then were ye baptised? And they said, To the baptism of John. And Paul said, John indeed baptised with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on him that was coming after him, that is, on Jesus". He did not in any way weaken John's service, but rather alluded to it as a service that he would not discredit. He would not weaken the effect of it in their souls. I think we may learn from that, that whatever precedes us should be valued rightly, not discredited in any way. If it is of God, it should be rightly valued. If there is anything we can build on, it should be fully owned. The object of John's ministry was reached. It adds, "when they heard that, they were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus". It brings out the state they were in. There was something there that could be added to.

Rem. They were subdued and bowed in their affections.

J.T. There was a subject state in them that had to be credited to John's service. Paul did not add anything, but he called attention to Jesus in the most beautiful manner. Paul spoke with a full heart when he spoke about Him. John said, "Behold the Lamb of God"; there was a certain spiritual fulness in his words. When Paul said "Jesus", he was not a whit behind. It should remind us of what tells in ministry and teaching, the fulness that there is in the heart behind the words used. I do not suppose there was a man under heaven who spoke of Jesus with such power as Paul, for he loved Him. No one can say "Lord Jesus" except by the Spirit. If there is no

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response to that, there is no response to anything. "When they heard that, they were baptised" -- it touched them. I think the principle is that of linking on with the best there was in John. John the evangelist, in the most skilful manner, makes John the baptist run into Scripture (John 3:35, 36); you cannot tell whether they are the words of the Spirit or the words of John the baptist. It shows the beautiful link John the baptist had with Christianity. There is the principle of linking on with what precedes us, making the most of it. The whole tenor of Scripture is one, so that when Jesus was raised from the dead, the disciples "believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken", John 2:22.

Ques. Do you think there was something in these believers at Ephesus that the apostle could follow up?

J.T. I am sure there was. Evidently he knew their faith. He discerns that they had believed. It was a question of what testimony had been presented to them. There are many today who believe genuinely, but the testimony presented to them has been defective. A large part of the work of those whom the Lord is supporting is to help them to link souls on with what they know is greater. Aquila and Priscilla discerned that Apollos had believed. I can see that brother and his wife listening to that remarkable Jew as he spoke in the synagogue at Ephesus. He had come from Africa, and had not heard of what had happened at Jerusalem. You can picture what these two thought when they heard that man preach. It is a question of being able to discern what is of God.

Rem. The apostle seems to discern by his questions how far these disciples had travelled.

J.T. The Lord has opened up a great field. People may say what they please, but God has specially helped us in opening up the truth, and the question is, What are you doing with it? God intends it to be used. It will be used more and more, especially

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if you come to the truth of the assembly. "The work to which I have called them" (Acts 13:2) -- we have to understand our particular service. It is an appointed work for the moment. It is a question of our discernment of what has preceded us. People say there is no change, but there is a change. Chapter 16 plainly indicates that the Spirit of God had a certain part of the world in His mind, not the whole world. He hindered the apostles from going to certain places. There is the idea of a given territory to be evangelised, the west, and to this these two men are called out. In chapter 13 it is "for the work to which I have called them". It is true the disciples were to "preach the gospel to every creature", that is the general attitude of heaven, the character of the dispensation; but the other side is, "to take out of the nations a people for his name", Acts 15:14. Paul is kept from going to certain places and directed to go to another place. Paul was at Philippi certain days; he was there to await orders. The Spirit did not tell him to go to Macedonia; a man from Macedonia called him there in a vision. As he arrived in Philippi he waited for orders and sought out what was for God. It must have been a great test to his heart. All that came up, except Lydia, was the spirit of Python. The levite has to get his orders from the Lord. "Go into all the world" -- it does not abrogate that, but we have to go where we are sent. Today it is a question of what the work is. What comes out here is the important principle of recognising what preceded it.

"They have Moses and the prophets". The great mass of God's people has listened to defective teaching, and they are suffering accordingly. This question of Paul, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" has in view to lead them on to God's best, the gift of the Spirit. It is pitiable that there should be so many genuine believers who are defective in this respect.

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Jacob's first visit to Padan was on the paternal line. He looked round and saw a well with a stone on its mouth. That is the position; the flocks are not getting water. He tells them what to do, but he does not do it. But then the point of interest with him was his relatives. However defective they may be, they are real relatives. You know Laban -- well, there is one of them. There is Rachel coming; everything is coming into view. It was a question of getting in touch with them on those lines. These people were related to Paul; they were his relatives. They were more than the ordinary Jews whom he met in the synagogue. You can look on a believer as a relative of yours and can go on with him. You get the family links and you can go a long way with them. Jacob was a month with Laban, working for him. Laban says, What about wages? He begins to recognise obligations. They owe you something. That is Christ's wages. He wants you to have part in the assembly, so Rachel is wages for Jacob. He knows just what to pay. If you love the Lord Jesus, that is all you want; the assembly is your wages. You cannot be in the assembly without the Spirit.

They were baptised "in the name of the Lord Jesus". The Holy Spirit honoured Paul in service. Jacob was a type of Christ; you are on the Lord's behalf. That is the whole position; you are merged in Christ. That is the great end in the gospel. Paul's joy was full; he would have everything connected with Christ.

It is a question of what is behind what you are saying. There is a depth behind it, and that is what grips people's souls.

The fact that the Spirit came upon them when he laid his hands on them is a beautiful tribute to Paul. He would be greatly enhanced in their eyes. Most christians think that they get the Spirit when they are born again. These dear people did not get the

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Spirit until Paul laid his hands on them. Some think that God must give the Spirit when you reach a certain point; they make the gift automatic. They say, You get the Spirit when you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Luke 11 places God in the position of Giver; you must allow Him the blessedness that belongs to giving. God gives in His own way. If there was such a gift they would certainly want Him. "In whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit"; you cannot bring in time there. Faith must receive the testimony of the Spirit, nevertheless God gives the Spirit in His own way and in His own time. It is a point of order, not time.

Ques. Would this suggest that christianity stands in relation to divine Persons?

J.T. Yes, so we are baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We are introduced to that realm where They are; to the sphere where divine Persons are acting. There is no doubt that in a general way the person who believes in Christ glorified gets the Spirit; it is only a question of making room for God. How He honoured Paul in this! It greatly enhanced him in the eyes of the saints afterwards. You must have the Spirit for the kingdom as well as for the assembly. People have light, but that is not enough. They listen to defective teaching; thus the work for those whom He has specially enlightened, is to keep on ministering the truth to them. "Paul, having passed through the upper districts, came to Ephesus", and there he found certain disciples: he had been at Ephesus before, but could not stay long enough; that is another point. Aquila and Priscilla were reserved for Paul coming back. Unselfishly they help him in regard to the Spirit. There was no evidence that Aquila had any special gift. It is a remarkable thing that Paul should have missed Apollos. You would

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never expect a man coming from Africa to be of such service as Apollos. He did not see Paul, but he saw Aquila and Priscilla. God will bring in somebody to keep us in step. It is a remarkable thing that Apollos is never said to have met Paul, yet how fully they worked together. Unless God Himself works, it goes wrong. It is beautiful to see how the work of God proceeds, and the beautiful golden link that is here. God gives the Spirit to them that obey Him. What beautiful faith they had: "when they heard that, they were baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus"as if they were committing themselves to Him. Without obedience we can do nothing, for there is not the readiness to submit to the truth. "When they heard that" -- he had not said very much.

Then we find Paul disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus. Tyrannus means 'a tyrant'. Christians are too casual about their learning. People think it optional to come to the meeting or not, to read their Bible or not. These things are not optional: they are imperative. Tyrannus would not let you read any book you like. This schoolmaster is arbitrary. There is nothing more important than absolute domination. It would never do to make christianity less imperative than the law. There is nothing more imperative than christianity. It is a question of the obedience of faith. It is a question of the Lord at Ephesus, but of God at Corinth. It is a two years course here. Everything must be subjected to the Lord. The assembly is subjected to Christ -- that is the principle. I have to go through the school of Tyrannus to be subjected to Christ, to break down the will, to make the heart subject. The deputy that ruled in Cyprus was amazed at the word of the Lord -- that is the idea. "So that all that inhabited Asia heard the word of the Lord". Paul reasoned with them. There is much lightness and carelessness in learning in the school of God. People assume that they can come and go as

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they wish, that it is optional. It is not optional. If you come into the assembly, this course has to be gone through. It is compulsory, in the sense that the Lord has taken us up for this; His authority is absolute. You must go through this way. See how the young men who go to a university have to go through their course. You have the principle of "a good degree" in 1 Timothy 3; you obtain it for yourself. You come out of that school smaller than when you went in. A disciple really involves being disciplined. I think the name Enoch means 'a disciplined man'; that man was translated. He was in the school of God for three hundred years. It is a learning time. We are not volunteers; that is not the principle of christianity. The Levites were taken up from a month old. It is a case of conscription.

There is the appeal in the gospel, too. The riches of God in Christ is a great feature. The Lord is putting in His claim for the assembly. There ought to be subjection.

I think we might just touch upon chapter 20, to connect it with what we have been saying. The Lord's supper stands in such a way in connection with the assembly that it appeals to our affections; it is not so much a question of authority, though there is authority in it. This long discourse by Paul at Troas is to remind us that if we have the Lord's supper, the Lord wishes us to have it after we have listened to Paul. Ordinarily we would not have such a procedure as this in an assembly meeting; it is unusual. There is no indication in the scriptures governing the Supper that it should be preceded by a long discourse, so that we have to link it with Paul's place in the testimony as representative of the Lord. Before we receive the Supper, be sure that we listen to him. The Lord wants us to partake of it in the light of Paul's ministry. His long address would mean that he has to be listened to. There would no

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doubt be in that long talk a peculiar breathing out of the love of Christ. We should not allow any of the things that have come over with us out of the systems; we must go back to Paul and listen to what he says.

We are not told what he said; that would mean it was a spiritual matter. There are certain things left indefinite in Scripture, so that there might be prayer and exercise, and that they might be reached on the line of spirituality. Nothing is told us of what Paul said except, "Be not troubled, for his life is in him". It was a mark of his discernment. Eutychus represents the inward state of the man; "his life is in him". What Paul said is not recorded, but it is not lost. It is kept somewhere, and I believe the Holy Spirit has it. These things are all the property of the assembly. The Spirit does not let them go, otherwise we should not have what we have today.

"This do in remembrance of me" is more an appeal. The Lord says "search the scriptures" -- that is an appeal, but no godly man would turn a deaf ear to it; to do so would be rebellious.

Eutychus is called "a boy". That means he is a potential man. "They brought away the boy alive, and were no little comforted". It is a living boy. I have no doubt it describes the state at Troas; that is where they were. "They brought away the boy alive". That is what they had. There was not an assembly in the world that had a boy like that.

Think of what he was spiritually. It suggests the possibility of manhood at the end. We have no record of what happened after this. It is a question now of whether the man will hear.

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APPROPRIATION

Revelation 10:8 - 11; Matthew 26:26 - 31; 1 Timothy 6:12, 19

I wish to speak about 'appropriation', a word commonly used amongst the people of God, the full significance of which as applying to what is presented as food by God to us is but poorly appreciated or, at least, has but little taken hold on us.

Eating is the best figure we get of the idea of appropriation because eating implies that I not only take things, but use them in such wise that they become entirely effective, according to their intent. What is eaten affords the necessary strength and thus is effective. Ordinarily the animal creation is bound to feed if it is to exist at all. No doubt the same principle applies to the vegetable creation, but it certainly does to the animal creation. We are so constituted that we must have food and eat it. The possession of food is not enough; it has to be appropriated. So in the bounty of the Creator, in Genesis, food is made plentiful; man could eat if he liked but, on the other hand, he was forbidden to eat certain fruit. Generally, however, food was there and in abundance. The first chapter of Genesis describes the food that God had provided for man and also for the beast of the field, but it is left to man to appropriate the food provided for him, and ordinarily he would do so as otherwise subsistence would be impossible. It was, of course, vegetable food, God taking account of man's constitution and of that of the cattle, so that flesh was not provided at the outset. From the facts presented, it is evident that the food provided suited man's constitution at that time. Later flesh was provided for man but there is nothing said about its being provided for the cattle although, doubtless,

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carnivorous appetites had already developed -- they certainly developed later on -- but flesh is allowed formally to man. As I said, however, there is no special injunction that the food should be eaten; that is left but, when we come to Exodus, there is a special injunction. That book, having in mind, as we have already noticed, that God would be in covenant relation with His people and that His name would be bound up with them, that His very glory should be in their midst, that, indeed, He Himself should dwell in their midst, a constitution becomes of importance and hence suitable food. So in Exodus God prescribes food, which I do not need to go into now, save to mention the passover. That has a great bearing on the subject. If people are to be in relation with God, they must not only learn to judge righteously in everyday affairs as men do, more or less, but to judge of sin according to God. In truth we have to learn everything from God and especially how to judge sin, so that He introduces the passover lamb. It was to be a yearling as you will remember, meaning that it was of growth, developed, and that it should be before the Israelites objectively in their houses so that they should learn to value it and that, whilst it was going to be food for them, it was not, in itself, deserving of death or sufferings. So that in slaying it they were to understand that the penalty was attached not to the lamb but to themselves.

I am saying what is simple to most of you but my object is to bring out first the kind of food that God prescribed and then that it should be eaten and nothing left over to the morning and what was left should be burned by fire. It was to be eaten at a particular time and family-wise, so that in the houses of the Israelites constitutions should be built up on the principle of sin judged vicariously. Not simply that man should die, according to Genesis, "the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die", but

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that there should be vicarious death and that that should afford food. And it was imperative that that food should be eaten. The people were to understand how their constitution was built up on the principle of food provided vicariously; they were to understand that a penalty had come in but, nevertheless, they subsisted. God intended to have these people all round His dwelling, to dwell in their midst, their very constitutions being in accord with Himself.

That is the idea, so I take that up as the principle governing what I have in mind; food not only provided but prescribed and enjoined to be eaten. Any Israelite could feed freely while ever afterwards anyone failing to feed on this food would be cut off. Other kinds of food would be added, such as the manna, but this food was imperative for every Israelite.

I want to apply this to what I want to say in regard to food in the book of the Revelation, a book which has a peculiar bearing on the present time. The understanding of this book requires much consideration but especially that we turn to see the voice, not only to hear, but to see the voice. The voice is behind and the one by whom it was intended to be heard turned to see it and he described what he saw, a wonderful vision. He is ordered here, in chapter 10, to take the little book and eat it up, cover as well, so to speak, meaning that none of it was to be omitted, for we are very apt to discriminate, but the word here is to take the little book and eat it up. I bring in this scripture first because it conveys the principle that, unless this injunction is acted upon, we shall not prophesy again. We shall not go forward, and the Lord will take on others. When I say prophesy again, I mean that whatever our position is, whatever our privilege that is accorded to us, unless this principle is accepted, we shall be left. Therefore it is for each one, in the face of this scripture,

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to make up his mind whether what he is privileged to be called into is of any value to him.

John accepts the role of prophet as his particular privilege and responsibility, one that he undoubtedly valued greatly. He was greatly honoured by the Lord coming to Patmos, that lonely island where John was doubtless deprived of the fellowship of his brethren. What a fine Lord's day he had that day! A delightful Lord's day though most solemn. He says, "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day" and how befitting it was that the Lord should come to Patmos that day. How pleased He must have been with John that He found him in this way, not found, in his isolation, reading some literature of the day, but keeping himself alone, having no brethren to speak to, but in the Spirit. He was in the fulness of the dispensation of the Spirit (the time in which the Spirit of God is here), and it is our privilege to be in the Spirit. In the circumstances surrounding John in his banishment, hate and persecution would be in evidence but, whatever the circumstances, he was outside of them. How great a privilege it is to be withdrawn in spirit from what is hostile! His body was there on the island of Patmos but he was in the Spirit, and how pleasurable it was to the Lord to find him in the Spirit on that day. John was a lone servant but a trusted one, one of the trustworthy ones of Scripture, the disciple whom Jesus loved, and the Lord did not love him without a good cause. He loves us all but, when one is singled out there is a reason and, in John's case, one reason would be that he was trustworthy.

The Lord was pleased to call to him from behind and John was sufficiently sensitive to turn and see the voice, not merely to hear it, for he apprehended there was a Person. In this sense it was a living voice and he turned to see the voice and the Lord spoke beautifully to him. He was going to unfold the

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"Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass". It was the unfolding of the future history of this world and the introduction of the world to come -- a wonderful theme! And the Lord is in keeping with it. He laid His hand upon John and said, "Fear not ... I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore".

It is the Apocalypse, a great revelation of imagery, which John has to see and does see, but he has to change his position time and again to see so important a matter. Now he has to eat and, if he does not eat, what will happen? There will be no sweetness in the mouth and bitterness in the belly and no prophesying again. He could not afford to miss that, nor is there any suggestion that he had any thought of missing such a great privilege. So he takes the little book. Some may enquire, 'What is the little book?' One thing important to notice is that it is a little one. Undoubtedly it is history, the history of Europe, but the history of Europe as God can write it, not like Gibbons' Decline and Fall and other such books, for God is not going, one might say, to fill His library with such history. This is a little book. It is the record of the things which Jesus did that will fill that library although, if everything were written, the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. This book, however, is a little one. The history of one country is very much the history of another; indeed, the history of the world from Babel onwards is the history of all, in principle, for man is man. It is only a question of environment. God "hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth". In God's government, environment has made differences but there is no need for libraries to record the history of the world from God's point of view. So there is a little book and that involves immense abridgement.

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God has great powers of compression. In His own things He can compress, and the Scriptures are wonderfully compressed, especially when they record a history not pleasing to God and about to call forth His judgment.

The little book contained things which moved John's affections. If God deals with the world, He cannot help dealing with His people too. The present great pressure is affecting God's people. It is of Him that it should affect us and we are not to miss the gain of it. There is discipline in it for us but it is ordered, and there is no one who loves the people of God but must feel the consequences of God's government in this world. The heart of a callous Christian would not bleed when he hears of this and that one suffering on account of current happenings. But God would make us sympathetic so that these conditions may not bring in unrighteousness but may work out the will of God amongst us as being part of the "all things" that "work together for good to them that love God".

John was a feeling brother, a brother and companion of the saints in the kingdom and patience of Jesus, and this little book obviously would record things that would affect his brethren. Whether Christians or the Jewish remnant, there would be suffering. There is bound to be suffering if God is dealing with the world. His dealings are in mercy, even in the world, to make a way for the gospel, but they involve suffering and the saints must have their share. However, God will make a difference, as in the plagues in Egypt when He made a difference between His people and the Egyptians.

John takes the little book and eats it and it was just what the angel said it was. It affected him just as the angel had described. In his mouth it was sweet. Now there is a word for us here in connection with what I am saying to you about enjoying food. I

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refer to what God calls attention to at a meeting like this, for example. That is the idea of it. He calls attention to some particular thing and He conveys clearly that it is not to be simply a pleasant song in our ears but that it is to go lower, not only in our mouths, for we may talk of what we have had, but talking is not all. Some will remember that the parts specially prescribed by the sacrifices for the priests were the jawbones and the maw (Deuteronomy 18:3), the masticating and assimilating parts; that is to say, not only the mouth, but the assimilation; that is what tells. What God draws attention to may be nice to speak about but the after-effects are not always enjoyable. Bringing these things into our daily life involves bitterness and, if you do not accept the bitterness, then your privileges will cease. You cannot afford that. John could not for a moment think of his privileges ceasing. He is a prophet in this book and he would not tolerate for an instant the thought that his service should not be carried on. He does not say so explicitly here but, because he ate the book and found it sweet in the mouth and bitter in the belly it is said, "Thou must prophesy again". Can you doubt that he prophesied again? even more powerfully? Moreover he would discriminate more than ever. That is what comes out in the next chapter; he is to measure the temple of God, the altar and the worshippers, as if he is morally qualified to do it; at the same time he is full of grief for the sufferings of the brethren. The Lord, as it were, says, 'I will give you the measure of them, you will be the instrument of distinguishing them as the court'. That is, they come under the judgment of God; those whom you love are not immune. But they are taken account of by God. How sweet, as I feel bitterly for my brethren, to know that God is taking care of them in their sufferings! He can help more than I can. That is exactly what happens. He says, "Measure the

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temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship in it". How sweet it is to have a sense that God is taking account of us in these times as belonging to His temple and having something to offer and to worship! God takes account of us. We may be sure He will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to bear; He will make a way through for us: I am speaking now of doing what is specially enjoined if we are to continue in this place of privilege and I turn to Matthew so that we may see how the assembly is reached.

In Matthew we see how reaching the assembly necessitates eating what we are enjoined to eat. The Lord does not exactly say, 'That is food' or 'This is My body, this is food'. God had said in Genesis that certain herbs and beasts of the field were food but gave no injunction to man to eat. But now, in Matthew, it is "Take, eat". We are enjoined to eat.

Now some of you may have noticed that Luke, in recording the institution of the Lord's supper, does not say anything about eating, which is a noteworthy distinction. There it is not a question of food but of memorial, "This do". That is what He had done "He took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them". "This do" refers to what He did. That is for our eyes, it is not a question of eating.

There is nothing said about eating or of movement, in Luke, it is simply brethren who love the Lord coming together to break bread as in Acts 20. I

1 Corinthians 11 the apostle combines Matthew and Luke and Mark also, because Mark follows Matthew in this respect. I am speaking, however, of Matthew's account. Luke contemplates that you love the Lord and call Him to mind. It is an act of mind in that way to bring Him here so that you say, as John did, "It is the Lord". Matthew, however, has the assembly in mind so there we find it is, "Take, eat; this is my body", "Drink ye all of it". That is to

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say, 'All of you drink it' for the assembly requires all of us. Matthew does not contemplate, primarily, a remnant but the assembly in militant power in this world and all of us are needed. Moreover, what is hidden here is the assembly's function Godward, a most important matter. Unless we function Godward we shall not function manward. We may carry on and be active in the gospel but there can be no testimony according to God save as we understand the function of the assembly Godward, and that is what is in view in the passage before us. Not only is it "Take" but "Take, eat". It is a figure of appropriation. What is it that I eat? It is not His flesh, that is John 6, but "My body". It is linked on with the passover. The passover was Christ's body as bearing sin (He was "made sin", He underwent the full judgment and wrath of God) to be eaten by Israel and by us, too, in the spiritual sense "Christ our passover". That, however, is not the Lord's supper. This "Take, eat" is not Christ undergoing the wrath of God, the passover is that, but I do not say they are not connected. Matthew and Mark are the only evangelists who give us the forsaking, so that in the passover in those two gospels we have to see what God thinks of sin -- a most important matter. The passover has to be eaten and while so doing the Lord challenged them, "One of you shall deliver me up". How searching that is! In a gospel that deals with sin in a most absolute way, will God let me pass? No! I must deal with sin in my own heart in this gospel. But then I come to the Lord's body, "This is my body"; that is Christ in another way. He has undergone death, of course; but it is now food for me and I am enjoined to eat it. It is a question of acquiring power in the assembly Godward and manward. So you find movement. Matthew and Mark mention, but Luke and John do not, that there is this movement after the Lord

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institutes the Supper, after He enjoins eating. It is a question of power, not simply of light, but of power in our constitutions to be the thing, so to speak. So that when they had sung a hymn, when they had done it -- it is not a question here of the Lord leading the singing but whether we can do it together -- they went to the mount of Olives; that is, there is an ascending movement. They had been in Jerusalem in the upper room but now there is a definite movement upwards and that is what is lacking amongst us. What I desire to point out is that Matthew would give us power in our souls by enjoining eating, "Take, eat".

Appropriating Christ in this way (it is really a whole Christ, as one might say) leads to the assembly as we have it in Corinthians, "The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of the Christ? Because we, being many, are one loaf, one body; for we all partake of that one loaf". This is a very important matter and aside from it there will be no movement in the assembly. It is a question of soul movement in an upward direction -- "They went out to the mount of Olives". Furthermore, everyone is required. One of the greatest things in christianity is mutual feelings and that is what the Lord has revived in the Supper and the readings.

Clericalism is not mutuality. Assembly procedure involves what is collective, it is the mutual side: "And having sung a hymn, they went out to the mount of Olives". "All drank".

There may be some young man or woman to whom it may never have occurred that he or she is needed.

You will remember that the incident of the colt is mentioned by all the evangelists and, except in John, the fact that the Lord had need of him. When Matthew mentions this, what could he have in mind but material for the assembly? So I would say to any young brother or sister, 'The Lord has need of you for the assembly'. Mark, Luke and John tell us

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something else, but Matthew has the assembly in mind; he would build up the constitution of the assembly and have everyone who belongs to it in it. All are needed. In Acts 2 it is stated that they were all together in one place. No one can afford to be absent.

Matthew has in mind, too, the increase of assemblies, the assembly as a whole but the increase of the local companies. The Lord has need of you for that. That is the way it is presented and so here, "drink ye all of it". What is it we drink? Paul says we have been all made to drink into one Spirit. What a service! Doubtless it was the Lord who did it. Will not every one here say 'The Lord made me to drink'? It is said that we are all baptised into one body by one Spirit. If I drink into one Spirit I will not find the position irksome but will enjoy it. No one is of much value in the fellowship who is not pleased with it!

I desire to add a word on the scripture in Timothy -- the thought of laying hold of "what is really life". It is the word for ministers, preachers, and teachers, because we are apt to live in our service and the support the Lord gives. It is, of course, very pleasing to be supported but support in service is not eternal life.

The next injunction has reference to those who are rich in this world's goods. They are apt to live in riches. People who have money and status are very apt to live in these things and so they are enjoined to do good. It is not stated that riches are of no value, they are just now but, if you have more than you have need of, they can be disposed of to the glory of God. The Spirit of God never disparages the things of this world in that sense. He does not blame those who have them but enjoins that we are to be rich in good works, to do good and to communicate, that they may lay hold of "what is really life".

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That touches our nice houses and gardens and furniture! They are not "really life". Even the family after the flesh is not "really life". The Holy Spirit does not exactly deprecate them but it is a matter of comparison. Living in one's ministry, in one's riches or in one's family is not really life. So you see there is great energy required -- the injunction is to "lay hold", to grasp it as if it is something that would elude you unless valued rightly. Service avails nothing without this. It is a privilege to serve, nevertheless service may give distinction which appeals to the flesh and the enemy can use it. So I must learn to value service rightly and, while so valuing it, to lay hold of eternal life, to grasp it. It is the blessing of God; the common blessing of my brethren is my blessing and it is greater than anything I can acquire. If I have riches or status, I am to see that eternal life is greater than these things, so I lay hold of eternal life. This last scripture regarding the rich is changed designedly by the Spirit of God. Instead of "eternal life" it is "what is really life". "Eternal life" is in contrast to what is material, so that we should learn to think less and less of the material and more and more of the great blessing of God which is "eternal life through Jesus Christ".

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"THE LORD" IN ACTS

Acts 9:31; Acts 2:47; Acts 10:48; Acts 13:12

I have in mind to occupy you with the Lord, that is, with what the title conveys in this book especially, leading up to and finishing with the verse in chapter 9, and involving that He is to be feared. There are things that are especially scarce among christians, and amongst them is the fear of the Lord, and I have in mind its application to believers. All have need to fear Him, but for the moment I am thinking of believers and especially those who professedly own the Lord, those who are in the fellowship nominally of God's Son Jesus Christ our Lord. He is our Lord. Indeed, it is one of the things we may well boast in that we have the Lord; in the language of one who loved Him, "They have taken away my Lord", John 20:13. So that, "To us there is ... one Lord" -- only one -- "Jesus Christ, by whom are all things" (1 Corinthians 8:6), which remark opens the door into a past eternity when He perfected all things and brought all things to pass. "One Lord" is the Creator: "by whom are all things, and we by him". For the moment the whole moral structure is out of gear, save those who are in the assembly, who have returned to righteousness, and who are "by him", a glorious position; not simply under Him which is also true, but "by him".

Now, having said all that, I have in mind this verse 31, that He is to be feared, and that He is especially to be feared, as we read in Psalm 89:7, "in the assembly of the saints". The word indeed is "council", which makes it stronger as regards the point in hand, that the saints are constituted to take counsel in regard to matters with which they have to do, whether good or evil -- and we have to do with

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both. Alas! much of our time is taken up with evil, but nevertheless it is the King's business and counsel is of great importance. "In the multitude of counsellors there is safety" (Proverbs 11:14), but it is such counsellors that are called saints, persons who are called out by God and constitute the assembly. These are held in great regard in heaven as those who are qualified to represent heaven here, and who learn to take counsel together. Sometimes it may be what is called "sweet counsel" which renders it enjoyable and edifying; at other times it may be dealing with hard facts involving mutual consideration and forbearance because of different minds, but with counsel prevailing. Heaven regards the results and the Lord "is greatly to be feared in the council of the saints". We cannot disregard that position with impunity, for he that does evil, we are told, shall receive of the evil which he has done. God acts from Himself, but He loves to act through His saints, through those who form the assembly, the council of His saints, and He is to be feared, or had in reverence of all those who are round about Him; those who are in the precincts of His dwelling even have to regard Him with reverence.

Well, having all this in mind, I think it well to call attention to the Lord in positions in which He is known, in different relations and connections, because He is not to be regarded as an austere autocrat, but One we can be with. He prefers that we should learn Him in the nearness of mutual feelings and intercourse, which is also within the range of those who form the assembly, and so the first passage I would allude to is in chapter 1, where the apostle Peter refers to the Lord Jesus as coming in and going out amongst His own (verse 21). It had reference to the nomination of certain ones from whom one should be selected to occupy the place of Judas, and therefore it was not a question of authority but of acquaintance

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with the ways of the Lord in the assembly, as He came in and went out amongst them "from the baptism of John", as Peter says, "until the day in which he was taken up from us". The apostle should be one who had been conversant, in fact, who had assembled during all that time with the Lord's people, who would have seen how the Lord Jesus, as Peter says, came in and went out among them. What a delightful suggestion that is! To become acquainted with the Lord Jesus, seeing how He came in and went out among them.

Now this endears Him to us, and really it is endearment to the Lord that induces reverence and subjection. It is subjection to One you love, not a difficult matter. The youngest believer ought to be capable of showing something of that. The first question ought to be whether the Lord has come into the soul as an object of affection. He comes in and goes out amongst us collectively, and He comes into a believer's soul in His own way and makes Himself an object of affection, and so you begin to regard Him with reverence. As it says, "He is thy Lord", and as Mary says, He is "my Lord". He is yours, and in a way, no greater boast can be made than that you have such a One as Lord, One that comes in and goes out amongst us, and in doing so, gives us to understand that we are in affectionate relation with Him. In fact, the term "Lord Jesus" seems to involve that; it is used frequently in this book, especially by Stephen in that powerful passage, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (chapter 7: 59); and Paul himself says later, "No one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit", 1 Corinthians 12:3. It is reserved, as it were, for the touch that the Holy Spirit can give in the soul of the lover of Christ -- "Lord Jesus". It is an affectionate reference, but the more you love the more readiness there is to submit, to obey. It becomes easy, so to say, to obey

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where love exists, where there is a link of affection. Well, that being so, in the passage I read in the next chapter, the Lord is taking account of persons who are objects of mercy. He is already said to be made Lord in this chapter (verse 36), not that He was not Lord. He is called Lord as here upon earth; the Lord Jesus came in and went out amongst them, but now He is made that, as if to enhance His position on high, His place of authority; He is fraught with that which should induce reverence and affectionate regard, for, as exalted, He has shed forth the Spirit. All that we have in our christian experience and all that we shall enjoy both now and for ever is due to that exaltation based on His redemptive work. "He hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear", says the apostle Peter; something visible and tangible had come into the souls of His people as positive blessing, the Holy Spirit. But then, that being so and the assembly thus formed, He is looking after persons who are objects of mercy, and every one of us is an object of mercy and a subject of mercy, "such as should be saved". It is a very great thought to get into the soul that one should be saved. It was the divine thought. Nothing in a way subdues one more than the sense of mercy. "According to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:5), being the elect. The Lord is taking account of such. If there is one here who does not know this, I would like to urge it upon you: "such as should be saved". I know well enough it refers to the Jewish remnant, but the principle of it applies to every one of us. It is an absolute thing, and the Lord is taking account of such and adding them to the church.

Now, this is a very important bit of the truth, and it brings the Lord peculiarly before us. I am speaking of it because I want to lead up to chapter 9, that we might see how the Lord is entitled on moral grounds to be reverenced and feared. He is entitled to it as

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being God, but He is entitled to it on moral grounds, and this ought to appeal to us peculiarly. So He is adding. There may be some here who have never got beyond the simple thought of being a unit as a christian, who have never had the thought of being added by the Lord to anything, or incorporated in the assembly, or put into the body of Christ. There may be such here, and I would like to address them, because they are missing much. The Lord has that to which He can add, and He is adding. Now the word "add" or "adding" or "added" is used seven times in this book in the most significant way, and no believer should be without the idea in his soul that he is added. That is to say, there was something here before me; I am not the first in the thing; I am not the beginning of anything. It is very beautifully put in the case of John the baptist: "After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me", John 1:30. It is of great importance to recognise what is before us, either historically before God or morally. A young person may have a place before me, and it is a great matter to recognise that, for after all God must have the last word in these things. So the word "add" implies there was something here before me. Indeed, the great apostle himself speaks of certain ones who were "in Christ" before him. They were not so gifted as he; he was before them in ministry and perhaps in love for Christ, but he was not before them "in Christ"; they had that advantage over him. It is well to recognise whatever advantage another may have, he is entitled to it; it is intended to keep balance.

So in verse 41 of chapter 2 we are told there were three thousand added in one day. It does not say who added them nor does it say to what they were added. It is just the great principle of being added. It is to get that into the mind. Then we are told that those people had certain traits. They were marked

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by perseverance in the "teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers", and then there is the word that "fear was upon every soul". The element of fear is a fine quality. You say, I thought I was brought into the liberty of sonship, but we are down here and the element of fear is of the very greatest importance, the fear of God. Then, in addition to that, signs and miracles are introduced as part of the wealth of the company, and then they were all together and had all things common, and whatever anyone had in a material way he did not regard it as his own but sold it and gave to those that had need, and "they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart". That is the description by the Spirit of God of those people, three thousand that were added to the others that were there.

I do urge the word "added" there, without any reference to who did it or to what they were added. The inference is plain enough, but the Holy Spirit makes no mistake when He omits words. He wants to get into your soul the thought of addition, that you are added, and then what the Lord can add to. This brings one down to a local company, that the Lord has respect for His own name, and before He can add openly, we must look to ourselves as to these traits that are mentioned here. But the fact is that He is adding; He is taking care of persons who are called "saved", "such as should be saved". I want you to take notice of that. It is the Lord who is doing it. Will you not let Him do it? He is doing it every day, as it says here. It is very remarkable how much we have the idea in Scripture of divine Persons working by the day, and here it is every day the Lord is adding a certain class to the assembly. The word 'assembly' is not there properly; it is the plain intimation that He is adding to what is described,

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to what bears His own marks, to what corresponds with Himself. I do not want to miss whatever corresponds with that today; I want to let the Lord add me to that, because the idea of being added to it is that I am the last one. Someone is just now the last one; he is the last in that respect in that company, but the Lord has added him. Others are following him, but there is the idea of being added, and, as added, you are only a little one. Even a Paul has to learn that. The Lord said to him, "Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do", Acts 9:6. That meant that there were people in that city who knew a great deal more than he did. It is a very fine thing to see that others know more than you. Even a Paul has to go into the city and be told what he is to do by humble people like Ananias. He is not mentioned elsewhere in the Scriptures than in relation to Saul, so he is not a man of very great note in the testimony, but Saul has to learn from him. He would never forget that he had to learn from Ananias, and it is a very important thing for young people to come in in a simple way to be taught. You have to learn everything, and the learning is in the assembly. So that as the Lord adds you, you are the last. When Saul of Tarsus was added he was the last one there at Damascus at that particular time, but he soon acquired a place. It was left with him, and it is for all of us to go on in that way, and, as it says, purchase to ourselves "a good degree", 1 Timothy 3:13. Never complain about the place the brethren give you; it is your own matter; purchase to yourself a good degree and no one can take it from you. Stephen acquired it; he purchased it to himself. It is within the range of every young brother and sister to purchase to himself or herself a good degree.

That is chapter 2, and the Lord becomes peculiarly endeared to the soul that comes to see that he is put

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in relation with such an august company of people. There is not their like in the whole universe. Those people are described in the end of chapter 2 by the Holy Spirit, and there is not their like anywhere. They correspond with Christ in their traits, and what a thing it is to be added to them, and how respectful we should be in being added, in taking a lowly place, because all the light of heaven is resident there; it is the residence of grace. The first thing mentioned is that they continued stedfastly in the apostles' teaching, which means an authoritative teaching.

That is a very fine word. You come under teaching that is authoritative to command your soul. They were taking the place of Moses; apostolic teaching means that they were representative of the Lord, and that is a good way to begin to learn to be subject, to come under authoritative teaching, teaching that commands your mind. They continued stedfastly in that.

Then, chapter 10 is to bring out the Lord as protection for the believer. Much is said of Him, especially in chapter 9. In that chapter you have more references to the Lord as such than in any other chapter of the book. There are about fifteen references to the Lord, so that you can say it is the Lord's chapter, so to say. It is the chapter of authority, the chapter in which authority and power are employed for the protection of the assembly. It is a very fine thing to get hold of, that the Lord is the Defender of the assembly. The chapter begins with the fact that Saul was breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, that is to say, he was clearly at issue with the Lord, and the sequel shows that he was not stronger. He came down and the Lord triumphed, but He triumphed in grace. He could have triumphed otherwise, for He has all power in heaven and on earth. So, the greatness of the lordship of Christ is established in chapter 9,

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and as the gentiles are brought in in chapter 10, it says that the Holy Spirit fell on them as Peter was speaking. It was an energetic action of the Spirit taking charge of the returning gentiles, a glorious position, because we are brought in under that, and Peter says, "Can any man forbid water?" The reference has respect to what God was doing; it was not Peter's work. Peter was preaching, but the Spirit of God did the work and laid hold of them, and fell upon them. Now Peter says, "Can any man forbid water?" as much as to say, God is doing something, and who can say no? You cannot forbid things in such circumstances. It is not a question of man's choice; it is of God. How great is that position, to be taken hold of by God Himself, and in such a near way, too, the Holy Spirit on earth falling upon them. "Can any one forbid water", Peter says, "that these should not be baptised, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did?" He brings them on to the full position of the saints. They are made "fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God" (Ephesians 2:19), and Peter recognised that. God had done it, and Peter was going to ratify it by water, by baptism: "And he commanded them to be baptised in the name of the Lord". Thus the gentiles are brought under the wing of the Lord, and our position there is fixed.

Some of us lately have considered with profit the book of Daniel; it opens up a wide scope of instruction as regards the gentile monarchies, the authority of God vested in the gentiles dating back to Nebuchadnezzar and going on to the present time. But those monarchies are viewed as wild beasts, and, taken as a whole, a monster man is the figure. How we need the protection of the Lord Jesus as these run their course, for the assembly is to come in under them. Jesus came in under them Himself. When He was put into the tomb the representative of the Roman

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power put a seal upon that tomb, but He came out of it without touching the stone. The angel rolled away the stone, not to let Jesus out, but rather to show that He had gone out. It was a question of divine power; it was a glorious position and the angel sat on the stone, and all the power of those four great monarchies could not move that angel from that stone. That is, he represents the power of Christ. It is Matthew. It is a glorious position, and baptism in the name of the Lord is that all that power is brought in for us in the way of protection, so that nothing can harm us save what that One allows. As the apostle says as the lion's mouth is opened, "The Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion", 2 Timothy 4:17.

I urge this chapter on all of us. As baptised, it is in the name of the Lord. It is not so much here the thing that you are introduced into: "to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". That is christianity; that is privilege. We are introduced into that life by baptism, but here it is "in the name of the Lord". It is a question of power protecting us. The whole of the gentile believers, the church among the nations, would need that protection. Every one of us needs it, but we may well rest assured, for "who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?" 1 Peter 3:13. We need the comfort of that at the present time; it is a question of the Lord.

Then the "teaching of the Lord" is another feature, and I touch on that as a further inducement to reverence. This deputy, Sergius Paulus, came to see, in the course things took in Cyprus, that there was this teaching of the Lord. He was an intelligent man and knew something about teaching, and he marvelled at this teaching. I wonder if we have

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come to see the greatness of the teaching of the Lord. It is not now the apostles' teaching; that is not the point, but the Lord's teaching. It was that kind of thing, and the deputy himself knew it was something different from anything he had ever heard. All the colleges of Rome could not afford anything like it, nor could the scribes and doctors at Jerusalem produce anything like it. The Lord taught not like them; He taught with authority, and what He taught carried its own conviction. It was heavenly, for it was the teaching of the Lord. I would that brethren would come to that, the greatness of this kind of teaching as a further inducement to subjection and the fear of the Lord.

Now I come back to verse 31 of chapter 9 so as to make an application. The Lord had done exploits. He had brought down Saul, the great enemy of the assembly, for, mark you, it is a question of the assembly. Satan had his eye on the assembly, and let us be assured that this has not abated one iota. The assembly is the supreme object of God as here on earth, and whatever the broken conditions, God greatly values our adherence to it. The fellowship involved in it is the greatest on earth, and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it. That may seem paradoxical, but it is true, that those who stand by the assembly will go through; the Lord will stand by them and see them through. Our safety lies in holding to it, and so you see here that Saul made havoc of the assembly. The enemy had tried to get in in chapter 5, first by endeavouring to get introduced by Ananias a lie that would make it appear that the Holy Spirit was not in the assembly. But the Lord dealt with it. Three hours afterwards, Sapphira came in with the same lie, and the apostle Peter brought in the Lord: "How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?" and she was carried out, too; they were both stricken dead, a

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solemn warning to those who would disregard the authority of the Lord in the assembly.

Saul makes havoc of the assembly, but the Lord brings him down and makes him the greatest champion of it. That is what the Lord can do, so that, all this happening, the assemblies in Judaea and Galilee and Samaria had rest. It was the Lord's doing. Sometimes after a peculiar time of conflict, the Lord is pleased to give us rest. We can look for that; we are entitled to pray for it. You get it throughout the book of Judges that the land had rest. The Lord does it, and so here, the assemblies in Judaea and in Galilee and in Samaria -- they are all bound together beautifully now -- had rest. But that is not all. They "were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord ...". It was no time to take it easy.

If the Lord gives us rest it is not to weaken any of His rights in our souls, but rather that we should continue in the things that please Him, and the first thing here that I stress is "walking in the fear of the Lord". Then, added to that, they were multiplied in the comfort of the Holy Spirit. The two things go together. If the Lord is pleased to give us rest, our security lies in walking in His fear, and then the Spirit comes in with His comfort.

There is no use in pretending to have the Holy Spirit with us aside from walking in the fear of the Lord. The Holy Spirit comes in as comfort as we recognise that. It is not slavish fear; it is a wholesome, sobering fear, a fear that is due to One who loves us supremely, who is entitled to our affections on moral grounds. I am speaking of moral grounds because of the things I have said. They are all to induce the reverence and the fear that are due to the Lord and, as I said, He is greatly to be feared in the assembly, or council, of the saints. If there is any quarrel amongst the saints, let it be a warning. Are we stronger than the Lord? The issue can only go

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one way. We had better make peace with Him and with His people. Our blessing now and for ever hinges on that. But it must be accompanied by the fear of the Lord, and then by the Spirit I can say, Lord Jesus, and people know I am saying it from the heart. It enters into all our service and our perception in the assembly. What we say is by the Spirit, but it is in the holy reverence of the Lord and then the comfort of the Spirit, as I said, so that there is multiplication. The Lord adds to that. We have those thoughts on earth today. The Lord is adding today, and there is edification and multiplication; those two things go together.

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WITNESSING

Revelation 20:4 - 6; Revelation 22:1 - 5, 14 - 21

J.T. In chapter 20, besides those mentioned in the beginning of verse 4, which include all the saints before the great tribulation, we have those who pass through it, "the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years". They lived and reigned with Christ; so that the idea of life is carried through to the reigning position. Some, alluded to in the first part of the verse, who might appear to have missed the first great wave of Christ's raising power, including the assembly, are particularly mentioned, in order that it might be understood that they are not overlooked. They have their place with the others, living and reigning with Christ; and so, however obscure or however late the day in which we may testify, we are not left out.

R.A.L. Is this honour conferred now, or in a future day?

J.T. Both are true; one may rest assured that if he is faithful in bearing testimony, he will be honoured where he suffered.

Ques. Is it true of the Lord, that He will be honoured in Jerusalem where He suffered?

J.T. I think that fact stands out, but He is already honoured there; that is, He is honoured in the saints. When Judas went out, the Lord said, "Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God be glorified in him, God also shall glorify him in himself, and shall glorify him immediately", John 13:31, 32. The immediate glory, it

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seems to me, includes what He gets in the saints, what He has now. The saints were His in Jerusalem, where He died, and so He said, "Why dost thou persecute me?" He was there in them -- they were His body.

Rem. I was thinking of Zechariah.

J.T. Yes, "his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives" (Zechariah 14:4), where He suffered in the testimony.

Ques. What is the thought of reigning?

J.T. It is the outcome of suffering. We are told that if we suffer, we shall reign. I think that is the link here, for these witnesses were peculiarly marked by suffering. It says, "The souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years". That is a counterpart of their suffering; reigning belongs to the sufferer.

Ques. Does Christ give character to the reigning?

J.T. Yes, it is His reigning; but it is remarkable that it should be said, "they lived". Living is what is before us particularly; they lived and reigned. Rem. Romans speaks of reigning in life (Romans 5:17).

J.T. Just so; it is reigning in life there, but this is living with Christ and reigning with Him. In Romans we get the thought of reigning in life by Him; but, here, it is with Him.

S.J.H. Could it be said that every believer has suffered in some measure; hence he shall surely live?

J.T. I think so; still, it is if we suffer. Every true believer suffers in some sense, and the thought of suffering introduces another thing here -- the great prominence given in Revelation to the book of life. Revelation contains most of the references to it,

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because we have come to the crisis of things where everything is brought to an issue. The book stresses reality, and anyone whose name is in it will not bow down to the beast or take on his mark; every one else will do so. "And all that dwell on the earth shall do it homage, every one whose name had not been written from the founding of the world in the book of life of the slain Lamb" (chapter 13: 8); accordingly, the book of life underlies the subject of which we are speaking; it is inclusive of all those in whom God works. It does not give license to our being in unsuitable associations, but it does bear on the work of God. It is remarkable how unqualifiedly it is used; that is, if one's name is found in the book of life, he does not bow down and worship the beast, or bear his mark; and he is the only one that has any right to enter the city, as it says in chapter 21: 27, "And nothing common, nor that maketh an abomination and a lie, shall at all enter into it; but those only who are written in the book of life of the Lamb"; and then in chapter 20:15, "And if any one was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire". It seems to be the saving feature throughout this book that the subjects of the work of God are preserved; therefore one should have no doubt in his mind as to this; it is a matter to be settled in one's soul.

A.H.P. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego had some feature of this, had they not; they were sufferers?

J.T. It is remarkable how they come in there; they are mentioned thirteen times in the chapter in which their persecution is recorded, to suggest how much heaven thinks of suffering saints.

Ques. Is there any significance in the way these souls met their death? It says that they were beheaded.

J.T. In this respect they correspond to John the baptist. I suppose the allusion would be that the

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world abhors the wisdom of God in His people; it is that which puts the world's wisdom to shame. John the baptist suffered beheading, too, and would bear a similar testimony.

S.J.H. Does the world particularly oppose what is living? When Lazarus was raised from the dead, "They took counsel that they might kill him" (John 11:53). It would seem as though the feature of life is particularly hateful to Satan.

J.T. Quite, the wisdom that goes with the testimony is well worth considering, because it is the greatest thing connected with operations; the earth was founded by wisdom (Proverbs 3:19). The wisdom of God is a very great thing and is peculiarly contrasted with human wisdom by Paul, who said, "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God", 1 Corinthians 3:19.

A.N.W. Will you say a little more about the book of life? You spoke of it as a saving feature. Why are some of the saints in the epistles especially mentioned as having their names there, as an honour, apparently?

J.T. In Philippians 4 we have it mentioned as if it were enough to say of certain ones of whom honourable mention is made. I think God would stress the greatness of having one's name there. I think it is a question of the purpose of God, of His putting the names in according to His perfect knowledge of them.

R.A.L. What would Paul see in Clement that would lead him to discern that his name was in the book of life?

J.T. He knew he was living spiritually.

J.W.D. In the word to Sardis, is there any suggestion that some may be blotted out?

J.T. Well, you will notice that the statement is negative, "And I will not blot his name out of the book of life", Revelation 3:5. I suppose the allusion would

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be that it was a time of church enrolment, and the like, but the one book in which to be enrolled was the book of life, and the overcomer could not be blotted out. There may be a sense in which God regards souls who are not real as alive; but in viewing generally in Scripture, the book of life, it includes only those who are real, all others are cast into the lake of fire.

S.J.H. Is there any difference between the thought of having one's name written in the book of life, and having one's name written in heaven? The Lord said, "Rejoice that your names are written in the heavens", Luke 10:20.

J.T. It is the same idea, only "written in the heavens" is beyond the book of life. "Written in the heavens" means having a status there like the "levites of God", who are registered in heaven, Hebrews 12:23. It gives a heavenly status.

A.N.W. Why did you bring in the book of life as referred to in chapter 20?

J.T. Because every christian has part in it; but then, if I am not standing against evil, if I have a mark of the beast, I am questionable; because those in the book of life do stand against the beast.

Rem. You have the expression in chapter 17: 8, "And they who dwell on the earth, whose names are not written from the founding of the world in the book of life". Just how would that apply -- "not written from the founding of the world"?

J.T. In chapter 13 you have a fuller statement "Whose name had not been written from the founding of the world in the book of life of the slain Lamb".

Life is taken up in connection with the founding of the world, and it does not rise to the height of counsel as in Ephesians, which is higher and inclusive of heavenly things. The book of life does not go beyond what is on the earth; although those whose names are in it would be in heaven, of course; but the point is

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that I am in life here where evil is, and I stand against it. In Colossians it is a question of association in life with Him; not so much eternal life, but it is persons living with Him. We are said to be "quickened together with him", Colossians 2:13.

J.T.Jr. "That they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised", 2 Corinthians 5:15.

J.T. Yes, but here you have "with", which is association. For us, it is Colossians; we are quickened together with Him, making it more intimate. Here, they lived and reigned; they are viewed not as we are here now, but as actually risen from the dead.

G.W.H-n. Would you say that the foreknowledge of God takes in every family?

J.T. I think so. All come into divine counsel; there is no afterthought with God -- "foreknown of him" -- everything was determined before.

A.N.W. I was just wondering whether predestination might run along with this, too.

J.T. Well, the book of life does not go so far, nor the promise of life. "Whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be the firstborn among many brethren. But whom he has predestinated, these also he has called; and whom he has called, these also he has justified; but whom he has justified, these also he has glorified" (Romans 8:29, 30); that runs up to the highest thought, inclusive of the assembly. Life is fundamental, relating to the individual. The fact that I am in that book gives stability -- all have life. The assembly goes beyond that; she is Christ's body and His bride; and individually we are conformed to the image of God's Son in heaven. God has predestinated us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, that we might be to the praise of His glory. That is the highest thought, alluding to the assembly. With regard to being enrolled

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in the book of life, if I am not standing against antichrist, and against antichristian principles, the entry of my name there is questionable; because chapters 13 and 14 of Revelation show that those whose names are in the book of life, do stand against antichrist and antichristian principles.

A.N.W. Name a few of these outstanding antichristian principles.

J.T. Well, they have arisen especially within the last fifty or seventy-five years -- trade unionism and all such combinations. Anything in the nature of combined power against the truth, is antichristian; and if one is not standing against these combinations, he is challengeable as to whether his name is in the book of life, because Revelation says that those whose names are in the book of life, do stand against what is antichristian.

Ques. Do you include the radio in that?

J.T. Well, the radio, I think, is an antichristian vehicle; it builds up what is antichristian. I have no doubt that it makes for the power of antichrist; it is that sort of thing, seeming to be inscrutable.

I believe it is preparing men for that very thing (compare Revelation 13:13 - 15). It is an evil thing and very damaging in christian households. I believe anybody who cannot stand against it is challengeable as to his loyalty to Christ and to christian fellowship.

Ques. When you speak of combinations, do you mean the principles of the world?

J.T. Combinations date from Shinar (Genesis 11). It was a combination against the truth, but this feature of evil has taken peculiar form in the last fifty or seventy-five years. It is that which the gospel of Matthew emphasises especially. In Matthew there were two demoniacs and two blind men. With regard to the demoniacs, it says, "And there met him, when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, two possessed by demons, coming out of

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the tombs, exceeding dangerous, so that no one was able to pass by that way", Matthew 8:28. That is the power of combination. It is against the truth, and there is a form of violence and lawlessness behind it, which is of the devil.

Ques. Would you say that unitarianism is antichristian?

J.T. Yes, of course, but that is seventeen or eighteen hundred years old; it is not a new thing at all; but combinations have taken a peculiarly modern turn. Satan is working with a view to antichrist, and the Spirit of God tells us that every one will succumb except those whose names are in the book of life; and so it becomes a challenge as to whether my name is there.

J.T.Jr. Does Moses represent this element that would stand against evil in the case of Dathan and Abiram?

J.T. Yes, it was a combination of contiguity -- the persons were combined because they were near each other -- a Levite and two Reubenites. There were three special leaders -- Korah, Dathan, and Abiram -- and two hundred and fifty princes of the congregation combined against Moses and Aaron, who fell on their faces. It is remarkable what is mentioned about this terrible attack of the devil, for what ensued was that the tabernacle was covered by a cloud, meaning that God would protect His testimony.

J.T.Jr. Moses said, "Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye perish in all their sins" (Numbers 16:26); so that it is a question of going out from it.

J.T. Yes. We cannot overcome such an uprising; we just have to leave it.

Ques. Having on the whole armour of God?

J.T. The suffering will become more acute, and if the cloud is covering the tabernacle some will have to stand, maybe a few, as working with God, like

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Jonathan (1 Samuel 14), to defend it. This scripture says that some in the last days, who do stand, are beheaded. In verse 4 it says, "The souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony"; that must allude to the wisdom that was in them. Matthew teaches us how to meet opposition by a combination"If two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens", Matthew 18:19. "Two of you" -- we are invulnerable as united in prayer; and then in the next verse we have, "For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them". These scriptures show us how we may stand against these antichristian principles. We cannot possibly carry the testimony through without suffering and the loss of things here. These witnesses were beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus and on account of the word of God; and they had not done homage to the beast or to his image, and had not received his mark in their foreheads or hands. Any combination might work out against the truth, but we have to be discriminating; we have to be fair. Governments are combinations; but they are under divine control, for the moment. We are told to pray for those in authority. As we have said, there are combinations which are out of control and are lawless.

S.J.H. Would you say a word about the first resurrection?

J.T. Well, that is one thought in which we all share. The first resurrection, I think, is in parts, as we see in chapter 20; yet it is one, "And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them" (verse 4). This refers to those who are raised when the Lord comes and it includes ourselves; but then there are those who suffer after, as we have seen, who also have part in it, and that is the reason why so much is said in the remaining part of the

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verse, that those who suffer beheading, and others, are also included in the first resurrection. Even though they come in late, they are included. After the rapture of the assembly and after the Old Testament saints are raised, these also are included in the same resurrection; so that it is, "Blessed and holy he who has part in the first resurrection". The first resurrection includes all who belong to God. "The rest of the dead", who are not raised till a thousand years later, are lost. Each family of the redeemed has its own part in the divine scheme, but all have part in the first resurrection. Those who come in after the assembly goes will have a terrible time, but they will not be left out of the first resurrection.

Ques. Will you explain that again about all having part in the first resurrection? The first resurrection is before the thousand years.

J.T. This refers to the time before the thousand years, it includes the reign of antichrist. The Lord takes special account of the sufferers mentioned here; and He makes it clear that they come in for the blessedness of the first resurrection. The resurrection of the wicked dead is after the millennium. They live not again until the thousand years are complete.

Ques. Is there no resurrection of the righteous during the thousand years?

J.T. They do not die; to have part in the final state of things, they are changed. There is nothing said here of them; the statement is with regard to these sufferers. No doubt there will be a time of unparalleled suffering, and these stand; that is what is emphasised here, showing that those who suffer are taken account of especially.

A.N.W. So that it is a kind of wake of the rapture, I suppose.

J.T.Jr. Are the testimony of Jesus, and the life of Jesus, seen in these men?

J.T. Exactly; "for the spirit of prophecy is the

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testimony of Jesus", Revelation 19:10. That is a touching reference, in keeping with the title "Lamb". Jesus stood against evil, never giving way for an instant these were in keeping with that.

J.T.Jr. The Lord said to Saul, "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest", Acts 9:5. He alluded to the saints.

Ques. What have you before you with regard to chapter 22?

J.T. Well, to call attention to the pure river of the water of life. In the book, we have had much about the throne; now there is something issuing out of the throne -- a river "bright as crystal"; it is a question of influence. Sympathy is seen in this book in the four living creatures; bond service in the one hundred and forty-four thousand; and testimony in the two witnesses, emphasised here in chapter 20, where it says they were beheaded, and where we have living and reigning; but now we come to the idea of influence, a river. As applied to ourselves today, it is a question of what influence is proceeding from us. This river is said to be "bright as crystal" and it issued from the throne. It has a clearness to it as over against all other sources of government. This is pure, clear influence. There is nothing dark, nothing deceptive, no double-mindedness about it. As under the Lord, one is what one is; he is transparent; so that the influence is clear as crystal, and it also has fructifying power in it.

Ques. Is that contrasted with the influence seen from the bottomless pit?

J.T. Yes, darkening influence. Is not that what marks the politics of this world? All human manipulation and double-dealing is of that kind. You are not sure of people; whereas, where things are clear, doubt disappears. In chapter 4, before the throne, there is a sea of glass; it is fixed and alludes to the great general principle of transparency. It is before

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the throne, but you have movement now; that is, influence going out at the same time as seen in the river. Here it is a question of the throne of government, the throne of God and the Lamb.

A.N.W. In the garden of Eden, the river that flowed from thence became four rivers.

J.T. Yes, just so; the general idea of river is there -- that it surrounds a certain land, and in that land are bdellium and onyx. The surrounding is to bring out the influence all around, so that what is of God is brought out.

S.J.H. Why is the throne, which is mentioned here, not an altar as it was in Ezekiel?

J.T. Well, I think now, it is a question of God's dominance. We have been speaking of God's acting in spite of circumstances, but here it is a set way of His. I think it reminds us of being right in our gatherings, so that God may have a free hand, and that influence as clear as crystal should go out. In our localities, if matters of discipline come up, our judgment is not beclouded; things are clear; there is a reason given for everything that is done. In Ephesians 2:21, it says of the assembly, "All the building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord" -- leading up to the millennium; so that whatever is done governmentally in the millennium will be clarified. There will be nothing dark; the meaning of everything will be clear. If we pursued right principles, nothing would be dark.

A.N.W. That cannot be said of present-day governments.

J.T. This is over against these.

A.H.P. Would that deliver us from personal influence and personal judgment in matters of discipline? Everything must be governed by divine authority.

J.T. Yes. The throne stands for God's mind in government. We must leave aside personal feelings

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and natural relationships; otherwise, we would be biased.

J.T.Jr. Does the fact that the river goes out have in view God acting?

J.T. Exactly. Then it is said, "In the midst of its street, and of the river, on this side and on that side, the tree of life, producing twelve fruits, in each month yielding its fruit". That would show the power of life; and I believe the more we know of righteousness, the more fruit there will be.

J.T.Jr. Does the idea of healing come in on account of the fact that the Spirit of God is here among us?

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Does the tree of life refer to Christ personally?

J.T. Well, no doubt it does; but I think it is more expanded -- what goes out from Him through others, because it is on either side of the river. The point is that it is available; you do not have to cross the river to get it.

Ques. Is it like Christ dwelling in your hearts?

J.T. Well, pretty much. The river flowing out of the belly of the believer (John 7:38), is a kindred thought; it flows out for good to others.

Rem. In Revelation 7 it is more limited, leading them to the fountains of waters of life.

J.T. Yes, fountains are more limited: rivers move in an extended way.

S.J.H. Why is this river associated with the street?

J.T. There is no idea of one class above another; there is common dignity. The Levites are all "firstborn" ones; no one has any distinction above another. There is no 'West End' in the heavenly city; there is one street.

Rem. That street is of pure gold and transparent glass.

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J.T. It is a wonderful suggestion of dignity in intrinsic worth and transparency.

Ques. Why is the name of God here "Lord God Almighty"?

J.T. We are in a prophetic scene here. Those inside know more than that. This is a prophetic book which does not deal with the intimacy of the assembly's relations with God and with Christ. They are touched upon. As we have said, it is to remind us that there is distance. It is not Ephesian or Colossian truth, or as in John's own gospel. Here, he is just a prophet -- a bondman prophet -- shown things, and he pictures things as he sees them. God can take a man and maintain him in a certain state. John was in the Spirit on the Lord's day in his own proper relation before God, but he turns back to see the voice behind him, so that he is brought into the setting of a prophet. It is not the apostle John, but the prophet John.

Ques. What is the thought of bearing fruit every month?

J.T. It is to bring out the great fruit-bearing power that is in the tree. You have the lunar year here; the agricultural year is a question of seasons.

Ques. The precious influence put forth by the months?

Ques. Variety?

J.T. Quite so. It is delightful to think of fresh fruit every month. This book impresses upon us the importance of freshness of life.

Ques. Would the street suggest a common walk together?

J.T. Yes; it is not graded society, but the level of mutual dignity -- all viewed as "firstborn who are registered in heaven".

S.J.H. Does it not involve that all a person's movements can be understood intelligibly?

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J.T. Just so; there is perfect freedom in life in dignity, reflected in God and in the Lamb.

A.N.W. We are exhorted to "have the same respect one for another"; not the same disrespect.

J.T. That brings in mutuality in dignity. We have already touched on verse 14-what belongs to those who wash their robes; they have a right to the tree of life, and to enter by the gates into the city and then, "Let him that is athirst come; he that will, let him take the water of life freely" (verse 17). It is for everybody.

J.T.Jr. Verse 15 would be especially applicable today -- "Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loves and makes a lie"; they are outside.

G.W.H-n. The tree of life seems to give it a present aspect. "Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city".

J.T. I think the verse has an application to fellowship; it is to determine those who are eligible; that they have a right on account of washing their robes.

R.A.L. In verse 17 it says, "Let him that hears say, Come". Does John return to the evangelist's feature here?

J.T. Yes; "come" is a word which belongs peculiarly to his ministry, "Come, see a man" (John 4:29); that is a principle with John. "And him that comes to me I will not at all cast out",

John 6:37. Verse 17 is evangelical.

Rem. John encourages one to do things for himself.

J.T. He does. The work of God is evidenced in your coming to Him.

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THE SPIRIT'S SERVICE AMONGST US COLLECTIVELY

1 Corinthians 3:16, 17

J.T. The Holy Spirit alone can maintain the saints in their localities in regard to the mind of God. These letters do not deal as much with the Spirit in the individual believer as with Him in the saints viewed collectively. The divine record shows that littleness outwardly marked the apostle before the Athenians. He left Athens, where much would be made of him, as he had been taken hold of by the leaders on Mars' Hill, addressing them as Athenians, speaking to them in the most telling language; he left Athens and instead of being found in such a place as Mars' Hill, he is sent to Corinth just as he is, a tent-maker, a craftsman, and he stays there with two that were of the same craft. Then he tells in his ministry that he determined to know nothing among them but Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I had in mind that their faith and the position indicated correspond to our own. It is not a time in which we have anything to lean on outwardly. He stayed there eighteen months but then the seed remained and then it was a question of faith; their faith would stand, stand in the wisdom of God. It has been noticed here that the revelation is by the Spirit, not as in the gospel, where the revelation is by the Son. God has revealed these things by the Spirit.

Rem. Would you mind saying something in regard to that? Perhaps we do not always have the right thought in regard to what is spiritual.

J.T. It must be connected with the Holy Spirit. It has to operate in that realm. It does not refer simply to those who have the Spirit. It is a fuller thought. We have in the gospels and in the Acts the

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idea of being sealed with the Spirit. Indeed, in the epistles, too. The Corinthians were not spiritual; they could not operate spiritually. As to the Galatians, there were those who were regarded as spiritual; they were not all. So that the Spirit of God differentiates even in Galatia, "Ye who are spiritual".

Rem. It surely affects each one of us that it is possible to have the Spirit and to have the gifts and yet not be spiritual.

J.T. "The spiritual discerns all things".

H.G. With such a remarkable servant and with such a remarkable gospel that he preached it is surprising that he had to say that he could not write to them as spiritual.

J.T. It must have been a great concern to the apostle. He would have been searching his heart as to whether there was anything in his ministering that hindered.

H.G. You can judge a man by his converts.

J.T. I do not think it is always the case. Like those in 1890, they were nearly all Mr. Darby's work. It alludes to the soil. We have good evidence that the Corinthians were amenable to correction. It is a great thing to accept correction. What marked the beloved apostle throughout is his amenableness to correction. Do you not think it is a great sign, Mr. G.?

H.G. I think it would show that he had Christ before him, not himself, would it not?

J.T. I think so. It is one of the best signs of the work of God. Take a man like David or like Peter; take the Corinthians. They are all ready for correction. The apostle had double joy in them. There were two conversions. Most of us need several conversions.

H.G. I am sure of that.

J.T. Is it not remarkable, "When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren", Luke 22:32? It

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is a good feature about the Corinthians that they are amenable to correction. The second epistle shows that they were willing to be corrected and breathes out Paul's great joy.

W.B. There are no commendations that I remember in Corinthians.

J.T. These letters to Corinth would encourage all of us especially where correction is necessary. It is necessary all the time. The Psalms and the prophets show that God is constantly bent on correcting His people but they pull away the shoulder. I do not know of anything so fine as the great attention the Spirit took in writing to these common people. So much is being opened up to us in chapter 2, even the "depths of God". David blundered often but was wonderfully corrected; so here in Corinth, they quietly listened to what the apostle had to say.

Ques. As to the spiritual side, what did Paul mean, "But ye are not in flesh but in Spirit, if indeed God's Spirit dwell in you", Romans 8:9?

J.T. Well, he refers to a state. You change your state. You have in Romans the change of man and the change of state. The change of state lies in the Spirit. If the Spirit of God dwells in you, not simply that ye have Him, but if He dwells in you, He is not disturbed in you. He is not contending always for His footing there. If He dwells there then you have made it comfortable for Him so that you are not in the flesh. That proves you are not in the flesh because the Spirit of God dwells in you.

H.G. It is the power of the reception of light from God and then the communication of the light in a simple way, not simply as an apostle but as any servant. "Communicating spiritual things by spiritual means", would apply to anybody (1 Corinthians 2:13).

J.T. Quite so. So that in chapter 2 he finishes up with the state of the believer. It is most essential for it could hardly apply to the Corinthians, but

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"we have the mind of Christ". Of course, it applies to himself, but it is put in an abstract way to apply to anyone to whom it does apply. That is brought in, I think, to prepare the way for the temple. Chapter 2 is more what is revealed to us and those that love God. It is shown how they can be so, for the Spirit of God enables a man to take in the things of God. "The things of God knows no one except the Spirit of God". It enables us to take them in. The mind of Christ. He brings in the spiritual without saying who the spiritual may be, he "discerns all things, and he is discerned of no one". That is the abstract thought, but if they exist, they must exist somewhere and the question is, do they exist in our meeting? Are there any spiritual in our meeting? Persons that discern things and then as to how people think. How do I think? We get the mind of Christ with thinking as He thinks. Well, that is a great point because we think very naturally, you know. We think very naturally about everyone.

H.G. Paul went to Ephesus and it says, he "laid his hands" upon the disciples and "the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied", Acts 19:6. Would you say that the assembly is viewed as the anointed vessel? These saints as taking character from the anointed Man and the assembly ought to have the mind of the anointed Man.

J.T. Well, exactly. "So also is the Christ". The anointing is public, but it works out inwardly. What I am externally is not something put on. That is really what is in mind and I think the anointed vessel in chapter 12 depends on the mind of the Christ in the hearts in each of us. One has often noticed that persons have come in. They look at things and say, I have never heard of them before. Well, if I brought a flower to such, what would he know about it? He would not know anything. The glory of Solomon

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does not come within the range of botany. But whatever you present to the Lord, He says something about it the cleverest men would not know. The Lord would bring us to think rightly.

H.G. Having the mind of Christ is the outcome of this.

J.T. This is all leading up to chapters 12, 13 and 14.

H.G. The thought of the anointing is made possible.

J.T. We are to be built up together and we must learn to think spiritually and not naturally. It is humbling to see how saints look at things. There is so little spirituality in our ways.

W.B. I suppose the book of Jude would be the product of this.

J.T. Well, exactly. The Corinthians acted carnally, being carnal but yet christians. But Jude says these are natural men, but to be a natural man, there is no change at all. Natural men are always materialistic.

J.B. How can the saints be brought on to this line?

J.T. Well, I think one needs to begin to say to himself, I must be the thing I am speaking of. And that is the apostle's way here. He was an exponent of the thing he preaches.

J.B. That brings in the holiness in verses 16 and 17.

J.T. Yes, in his way of speaking of things, he says, "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power". Demonstration of the Spirit! If I can be a thing in any little way then my speaking takes form. People know that. As the Lord said, "Altogether that which I also say to you",

John 8:25. In the Lord's ministry He never stopped to gratify natural curiosity. If I am just governed by a natural way of looking at things, I am out of it.

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H.G. In John 6 the Lord says, "Whence shall we buy loaves that these may eat?" But it was much more difficult to natural men.

J.T. Things became increasingly difficult to them in Capernaum. The Lord says, "Will ye also go away?" and Peter says, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal; and we have believed and know that thou art the holy one of God". What a joy that must have been to the Lord! Well, then He says, "Have not I chosen you the twelve? and of you one is a devil". He does not let us off. They do not get off without the twelve of them coming under such a spiritual thought as that. They have the two elements in the twelve. One growing in the apprehension of Christ and the other one a devil. The Lord makes no attempt to make a show outwardly but there was a wonderful spirit in Peter. It was not a revelation there. It is not like Matthew 16. Peter says just what he has arrived at. He does not say, "Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God", but he says, "thou art the holy one of God". That is what he saw and that is what he spoke of. It is to bring out the quality. How the Lord is working for quality amongst us! It is a beautiful touch how the Lord would praise that. How much Peter would come into His mind in that statement!

J.B. Would Peter speak of the belief of the others?

J.T. It might be thought that the others were all covered by it. Judas was not. In John 6 it is to bring out in the disciples what He is going to make of them. They do not appear in chapter 5 at all. The disciples are seen with Him. It is one of the most difficult chapters in Scripture but it brings out this wonderful period. The gold of that land was good. The land was continually telling it. That is the idea. So that the apostle is aiming in chapter 2

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to bring out what is possible, because it was possible then and is now for persons to be spiritual and have the mind of Christ.

H.G. I met a man the other day on a boat. I did not know him but I got to speaking with him and I asked him a few questions about the deity of Christ, as a great Mediator and His dying. 'Oh', he said, 'that is just folly to me'. And then I thought of the scripture, "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him". They are not folly to me. They are my life. My whole existence, so to speak, hangs upon that.

J.T. Very good. This is a very significant scripture, as to how it applies today. Have I the mind of Christ? I suppose I shall never arrive at the temple, I shall never arrive at the temple save through chapter 2. The idea of the temple is a different aspect. The Spirit wants us to be together temple-wise and body-wise. I think we have to understand what these terms signify. Now if I am supposed to understand how to meet the brethren temple-wise, I have to learn in chapter 2 what the Holy Spirit means to us so that we can think as Christ does. If you get persons sitting as we are this afternoon, then you have a medium, because the universal temple is a medium. He is here helping or hindering but in spiritual condition and character as here temple-wise.

They take notice of what he says. It is a remarkable thing in the gospels how things appealed to people in whom God had wrought.

J.B. Peter speaks in John 6 of Christ "the holy one of God". He discerned Him, did he not? The Lord was discerned by Peter; would that add further to Peter's spirituality?

J.T. Well, it would to that extent.

J.B. But the others did not discern.

J.T. I wonder if we have any thought about the temple? What he stresses is that "Ye are [the]

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temple of God", the article not being there. It just indicates what is characteristic.

W.B. I thought that the Lord is indicating the question of holiness in a general way. We would be very thankful if there was more said about that.

J.T. Well, as soon as you get the thought of the temple you begin to see that you cease to be a spectator in the meeting. You cease to be merely that and begin to see that you have something to do with it.

Something to do toward its prosperity.

Rem. The temple is something that is built up, not just raised up. Each one of us has to feel the effects of what we have before us.

Rem. Being built up "on your most holy faith".

H.G. But if we had a real appreciation of the value of the temple and that it was really a spiritual thing and see that we are component parts, we would see it completed, the thing alive.

J.T. That is a great help, because Simeon is that.

He is the subject of the material that the Lord would use. He must be what we are speaking of. It says, "There was a man in Jerusalem". Now that raises the question that is mentioned about him and it is all in view of what follows and what we are speaking of this afternoon. "There was a man in Jerusalem".

The preparation does indicate that he had come to it.

The sentence implies that he was characteristic in that place. Now Jerusalem is not simply a city geographically. Luke would bring out what it is in the mind of God. It is Luke that tells that the Lord "wept over it". Now if a man is spiritual he would be in the centre. That is the place. There is a lot of history behind that. It was hard to get people to Jerusalem in the days of Nehemiah. It is hard to get people into it now. It refers to a great spiritual thought. So that although we are speaking here of the whole company, what would mark a spiritual man is that he is in Jerusalem. He is in the

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centre of all that is of God. He is in the centre of things. He is not an alien "from the commonwealth of Israel" or a stranger "to the covenants of promise". It says of him, Simeon, that "he came in the Spirit into the temple"; and it was revealed to him by the Spirit "that he should not see death before he should see the Lord's Christ". Now there is the idea of the man who moves by the Spirit. I think that helps, in what we are trying to bring forward, in what we are speaking of. I am in Jerusalem when I am in the temple.

L.E.S. "If I forget thee, Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its skill", Psalm 137:5.

J.T. Oh, that is constant throughout the Old Testament, the great place that Jerusalem had. The man that resides there is under the influence of the Spirit; all shows what people are brought into.

H.G. And Anna "coming up the same hour gave praise to the Lord"; and she spoke of Him as though she was in touch with what God was, too.

J.T. She contributed, did she not? What a beautiful touch she gave when she came in.

H.G. The meeting depends on the sisters.

J.T. It is immense. You get spiritual sisters in a meeting and you can bring things out better. There is power there.

H.G. It is quite an important thing then that the average sister in a spiritual way knows her proper worth. One feels the tremendous possibility latent in a spiritual sister. The brothers do not have it all. Theirs is just an active part.

J.T. We would see how incomplete the picture in Luke would be without Anna. The notice is made of "a man in Jerusalem" and then we are told what kind of a man he was, and how he was moved by the Spirit. Then we have the woman.

W.B. She was a prophetess. She had the mind of the Lord for the moment.

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J.T. She was about one hundred and six years old, would you say, Mr. G.?

H.G. A widow of eighty-four years. Lived with her husband seven years from virginity. That makes it ninety-one years. Yes, she was well over the century.

J.T. As she must have been at least fifteen years old when she was married she would be at least one hundred and six. That is all brought in to encourage.

It is complimentary to her, so that the question of the temple is introduced very briefly, but the way is made for it in a fuller measure by chapter 2, and then it would come in about the building also, because the idea of building necessarily precedes the thought of the temple.

Ques. Would you say that this has any individual characteristics? That is, this question in chapter 3.

J.T. Well, it reads, "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any one corrupt the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, and such are ye". It was a question of our knowing.

"Do ye not know?" is a feature that you get in this epistle. That is the saints knowing what is true of themselves. Of course, we want to know what is true in Christ, but also what is true in ourselves.

It is true of ourselves collectively here because the idea of building precedes these verses.

Rem. If earlier we have had it more individually, now it is become a collective thing, so that there is a way that each one himself feels that God is building something here.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. I have thought of this in connection with John 14. It gets into the company thought.

Ques. Would you say that collective responsibility comes into view when we are in the responsibility

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and knowledge of the part of the temple as the dwelling-place of the Spirit?

J.T. Then you begin to see how essential you are.

That you are temple. "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God?" Ye at Corinth.

L.E.S. Would you suggest that the temple is here in view of the Spirit diffusing the light of God?

J.T. Just so. The diffusion of the light, I think, would come in more properly where you have the anointing. It diffuses in a public vessel. This is more preceding the idea. It is for ourselves, you know.

It is a great deal wider than the assembly. It goes under the head of the anointing, where you are anointed to diffuse the light outwardly. We shall reach that in chapter 12. Now it is a medium for the mind of God to come in, not yet so much as to public testimony, but so that the mind of God can come into Corinth. It is a medium there. A very great fact. So that I do not need to go to Jerusalem. The mind of God can come to any here.

H.G. Is the anointing a representation publicly?

J.T. I think so, representing God here preparatory to it. The Corinthians understood what temple meant.

It is a great fact for them that they were to know that the mind of God could come in through them, not by reading or great learning, but by the Spirit being in them.

H.G. The son of a king would be trained from his birth in view of some day reigning himself. So that I suppose he would have the saints in Corinth understand their peculiar dignity.

J.T. We need to awake to this fact that we are the temple, the knowledge that the temple of God is holy. It raises the question of holiness and the Spirit.

Rem. The eunuch went up to Jerusalem to seek the mind of the Lord there.

J.T. This would render that unnecessary.

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J.B. Is it more the building that is in view, not the worship as yet?

J.T. It is the idea of the inner sanctuary. It is not the temple in the sense of buildings. There are two words used in the gospels and epistles: the one relates to all the buildings, the different buildings of the temple in Jerusalem, the other one is the inner sanctuary where the golden altar was and where Zacharias was offering incense. He was inside, but he was by the golden altar and Gabriel stood up by the right side of the golden altar. That is the thought. It was a heavenly servant to communicate the mind of God. It was not a question of a great building outwardly but of that particular place, so that you have the plural word used, "holies". That raises the question not only of our spirituality but also of our holiness.

H.G. But if you had the mind of Christ, no question should be unsolved. One feels that it is necessary to follow the mind of Christ. We think of things still in regard to ourselves, and in regard to natural things without giving them the viewpoint of Christ. There should be a spiritual viewpoint.

J.T. You mean that it would meet all the difficulties that would arise? Difficulties are constantly arising in meetings. Well, if we come back to this, humbly taking it to ourselves, He will not leave us in the dark. We are sure to get light.

H.G. How simply the Lord answered every question here. He put all to shame. In a certain sense we ought to have the same kind of wisdom as having the Spirit. Is that going too far?

J.T. You have the very same word applied to the Lord. "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up", John 2:19. He spoke of the temple of his body. They did not know that but that is what He spoke about. That was the idea that the disciples

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could not understand; however, God would answer it according to His views, not theirs.

W.B. Every thought of God was infinite there.

J.T. So that when He was risen, it says, "His disciples remembered that he had said this, and believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken"; the Scripture is first, showing how the divine thought always comes in first.

Rem. The divine thought would be nowhere else but here.

J.T. Would you not say that a meeting like this is important, for we humbly recognise the temple of God and that we can get the divine thought there? So that we can get the divine thoughts there as they got them from Jesus. It is the idea that the Holy Spirit is here and that the temple of God is holy so that we are challenged as to our holiness.

H.G. By desecration or unholiness or both?

J.T. I should think both. One that would do it by defiling or corrupting it in the full sense would be a wicked man. "If any one corrupt the temple of God, him shall God destroy".

The very conditions of the people and what there may be in any locality, of course, affects all we are speaking about, but it makes it all the more important that we attend to the idea of holiness. We have the Spirit and the mind of Christ in chapter 2 but holiness is added here. The temple of God is holy. That raises the question as to what governs one in what one says. The natural mind may take in natural things, but spiritual things "are spiritually discerned".

W.B. Moses was to takeoff his shoes at the burning bush and I suppose that is the attitude in which we are to get the gain of where God dwells now.

Rem. Think of the great change at the beginning in the Corinthians. "The temple of God is holy, and such are ye". They are holy, a great change which the Spirit alone could make.

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J.T. The idea challenges us as to holiness.

J.B. There seems to be a further thought in regard to the temple -- that the Spirit dwells there. We are warranted in looking at these thoughts separately. "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" That is, you have two thoughts here.

J.T. Yes, you have to take up the idea of the temple in the persons, with all that is stated of them in mind, but they are regarded as having the Spirit. But the Holy Spirit dwells as a further thought. It would mean not that it dwells in me personally, but in us collectively. It dwells collectively in the saints.

H.G. The day of Pentecost tells of the appearance of "parted tongues, as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave to them to speak forth". I was wondering just how that would be. Do they go together, so to speak, to make the temple?

J.T. I suppose so, and you have that they are together in one place. So that the filling would mean that there is nothing else there and they began to speak as the Holy Spirit gave them utterance. So that there will not be a hindrance to mar the efforts of the divine work of those persons. "We hear them each in our own dialect in which we have been born", speaking wonderful things of God. There was a tangible evidence of that. There was nothing to hinder. But you feel the poverty at Corinth by the way he has to speak to them as if they never realised, "Do ye not know?" But you feel the poverty is applied to ourselves, the poverty of our circumstances. We have to look at it theoretically. Where is there anyone that can speak of the wonderful works of God in the power of the Spirit? The meeting at Council Bluffs ought to be, as we look at it from the standpoint of the word, a temple. There ought to be

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ability to answer any normal question. No person in this town ought to be without light about God if he has any exercise at all, would you say that, Mr. G.?

H.G. Yes, I am sure it is so.

J.T. There was no need for Peter in opening his address to turn around and say, 'Do you not know that you are in the temple of God?' The crowd knew it. 'We hear them speak'. But you feel the poverty here. Do you not know that you are that? They would not be accustomed to tell the people around them about God. There does not appear to be much evangelising effort around Corinth. And you know there is a lot of enquiry around. We notice in our parts how many enquiries there are. It is very true that the results of what we get for God are very, very small, but still the Lord says, "For a testimony to them". Very important is the testimony to them. And if people come to meetings like these, well the day will come when the word will come back and God will receive something out of it. It is a testimony.

L.E.S. So the poverty of the man in Acts 3 was met by Peter and John saying, "Look on us". The natural idea of the temple was superseded by what was there.

J.T. Oh, you see it throughout the early chapters of the Acts, without calling attention to it as was formally here. The thing was there manifested.

W.B. When you speak of the temple of God characteristically here, would it be the features of the temple?

J.T. Well, that is what is in the apostle's mind. He dwells on just one side. That is the point he stresses, 'You are holy'. What was needed to be stressed was holiness. The danger of corruption.

J.B. There is really encouragement in it. It is not said to the Ephesians. It is said to the Corinthians.

J.T. It was said to the Ephesians that the building

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"increases to a holy temple in the Lord". It was growth. The building grew. Really, the whole gentile work of God was growing into a holy temple in the Lord; that is a great general thought. It was growing. Here it is simply that he had to tell them what they are and in doing so to stress the idea of holiness.

W.B. I have thought that the Ephesians awaited the day of display in the world to come, whereas here it would be present.

J.T. Yes, the temple and growing in the Lord alludes to this public regime when He is ruling. As such it will remain intelligible.

W.B. The Lord will be universally owned and the devil will be chained.

Rem. Is the temple condition a Spirit of God living or dwelling in a condition of the certain place?

J.T. The divine mind would be there, so that the Lord speaks of Himself as the temple.

L.E.S. How is that brought out in the thought of the holies in view of the thought of the temple being realised?

J.T. It works out in a meeting like this. It becomes a question of atmosphere. I mean it is either that as together we promote feelings just working against the Spirit and leading to stagnation so there is no power, or that we act and think temple-wise, which promotes holiness. The physical effect is the checking and nullifying of natural feeling and the prevalence of the spiritual holy feeling. It is a question whether the meeting develops in that way. If there be the prevalence of spiritual headship people own their apprehension of the death of the Lord Jesus and then apprehend an increase in power and so the medium of communication increases. That is as I understand it.

W.B. A question constantly of the mind.

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J.T. If I come in contact with a brother or a sister, do I promote the holy side or the natural side? If you get in company with non-spiritual persons, you feel it. You are shut up. There is something there that checks you, whereas if you come in contact with a spiritual person, you are enlarged, as Paul says. "Our mouth is opened to you, Corinthians, our heart is expanded". And it affected some of them. I find in going around amongst the saints that the presence of certain brethren has an immense influence in what comes out in the meeting. When Silas and Timotheus came down from Macedonia, it had an effect on Paul in Corinth. That is to say, the thought of God was accentuated by the presence of those two men. And the word there alludes to the mind of God and to the structure so that it was the current of the mind of God. That was the line of these two brothers. Whereas, if two unspiritual brothers came to the town they would not help at all. You feel greatly checked by this. Now that works in every person in this meeting. We think, 'I am in the current'. If I am in the current there is an accentuation of power so that we can see it is not a question of numbers. Numbers may hinder us. In fact, you may come together for the worse. By that I mean they might come together as unspiritual and the atmosphere become worse and worse.

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WASHING

1 Corinthians 6:11, 19, 20; 1 Corinthians 7:40; 1 Corinthians 12:1 - 13

J.T. I have in mind that the Holy Spirit presents Himself in connection with certain features. So that we have, as we might expect after having considered the temple in chapter 3 and after the record of chapter 5, an allusion to washing. If we do not wash every day, it is most important that there should be, at least, a wash-day for the removal of defilement, which is cumulative unless it is dealt with at once. If we leave it to a wash-day, it is difficult to get it out without, to use a figure, several chemicals having to be employed. If, however, we deal with things immediately an ordinary washing suffices. So I think the reference in chapter 6 morally follows the record of evil in Corinth in chapter 5. The evil condition that existed, although centred in one person, affected all, more or less.

Rem. So the one that was affected needed the washing as much as the others.

J.T. That is what I thought. The idea of a washday is very common, but each day should be a wash-day.

L.E.S. The principle of Numbers 19 enters into it. It says there that "the man that is unclean, and doth not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from the midst of the congregation", Numbers 19:20.

J.T. Yes; it is very important to see that the penalty is not because of the defilement but because of the neglect of washing. Moreover if you do apply the washing, there is a certain penalty that you cannot evade; you are to go through with the thing.

L.E.S. It says there that he has defiled both the tabernacle (verse 13) and the sanctuary (verse 20) of Jehovah.

J.T. Very good. It shows how defilement in me

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may affect all. And then the subject is dealt with in Revelation 22:14 in the last reference to washing "Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life". Blessed are they that do that. It is not 'that will do it' or 'that have done it', but 'that do it'. It is characteristic of them. They have a right to the tree of life and to enter by the gates into the city. They are people that have rights, people that wash characteristically.

H.G. There is a painful list before this verse. It is something like the ten lepers in a way, but it says, "Ye have been washed". The thought is to maintain that.

J.T. I thought that the connection of the Spirit here shows that the apostle is obliged to be abstract in dealing with the Corinthians. Characteristically, of course, they were carnal. So that if he has to say anything different from that, it is abstract and alludes to what had come about in them by God's work as seen in chapter 1 in principle but not in a characteristic way.

J.B. The abstract would be what was right normally.

J.T. In chapter 5 you have, "purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, according as ye are unleavened". How can you understand that except in the abstract as dealing with positive sin among them?

Ques. Was it necessary that the whole body should be washed?

J.T. Yes. It would fall in with Mr. G's reference. There was a need of constant washing. "Blessed are they that wash", Revelation 22:14.

H.G. So in Revelation you have the two thoughts "Him who loves us, and has washed us from our sins" (chapter 1: 5), that is the worth of Christ; and those that "have washed their robes, and have made

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them white in the blood of the Lamb", Revelation 7:14.

The right to enjoy citizenship involves washing.

J.T. A right attaches to it. You do not like to see a right despised. Chapter 22: 14 accords a right to a person. Therefore we can never patronise the saints or assume that we are conferring any advantage upon them, even by receiving a person into fellowship. You have to be careful in according him any patronage. It is a question of his right.

God said that. Now in chapter 1 of Revelation glory is ascribed to the Lord because He has washed us in His blood. Then in chapter 7 a great crowd, that no one can number, have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. These people themselves have done it, but in both instances it is a question of the blood. In chapter 22 it is obviously the water that is in mind; there is no constant application of the blood but there must be of the water. Those who wash do it all the time; they are never other than clean.

Ques. Would the water be connected with the death of Christ?

J.T. Just as much as the blood is. The Lord Jesus came by water and by blood. It is useless to come in unless with these means. What could the Lord do save with these elements? He came in by the water in connection with truth. Thirty-three years elapsed between His birth and crucifixion; His crucifixion was always in view.

H.G. The cleansing is brought in before the expiation there.

J.T. Yes; as characteristic of John's epistle.

The water must be first.

H.G. The most important side is easily seen and therefore put first.

J.T. The Spirit bears witness and He is here. Here in Corinthians it is by the Spirit of our God,

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showing the part He has in this transaction, in this process.

H.G. It is interesting that the washing is put before the purification here: "But ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified, but ye have been justified". These are put after washing.

J.T. That is my thought in bringing it in in connection with the Spirit. It is the prominent thought in view of the filthy things to be dealt with. When they came together to do what the apostle told them to do, washing would be the first thing to be done.

H.G. As you were saying yesterday, "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God?" I expect the uncleanness present was the result of their failure to recognise that.

J.T. Yes, exactly. So that they are not taken up as if they were unconverted people. If a man is converted this can be said of him in some way.

H.G. Peter says, he "has forgotten the purging of his former sins", 2 Peter 1:9.

J.T. Quite. You are impressed with how humbling it must have been to have had to say such things to christians. You can hardly conceive of saying them today to a company of christians. To have to speak to them, as he does, about their bodies and to refer to the state of things there, must have been extremely humbling to the apostle. Then in chapter 11 he has to speak about them coming to the Lord's supper drunk. How extremely humbling it must have been to the apostle to descend to such a level to talk to an assembly of God!

H.G. He found many such situations.

J.T. He had a right to come into these matters as a man comes into his house. There were terrible things there. He must have talked to his children as if they were going somewhere such as, as you might say, going to a picture show; it was most distressing.

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It had to be done away with, and the great apostle Paul did it. He took the towel and water and the rod with him, and he scrubbed each one. It shows the depths to which he would go: "For I think that God has set us the apostles for the last". He stopped at nothing to help the people of God.

Ques. Would he show forth the Spirit of the Lord, "For I have given you an example that, as I have done to you, ye should do also", John 13:15?

J.T. That is right. The Lord took the towel and water and went around to wash the disciples' feet. That is what Paul was doing here. Only the whole body was affected here. The condition of the body is what this chapter brings out.

H.G. And that was in more than "reigning as kings". One is struck with the supreme spiritual skill of the apostle in touching the most delicate matters in a suggestive sort of way, "As my beloved children I admonish you", 1 Corinthians 4:14.

J.T. There was marvellous moral power in his being able to call it the assembly of God, and yet know of all this terrible situation and the filth that existed. It is the question of his power and ability to deal with it.

W.B. Say a little about "by the Spirit of our God".

J.T. I think he links himself on with the Corinthians as much as ever he can, so he says, "Our God".

Ques. What do you think about Nehemiah? He cast forth Tobijah's household stuff out of the chamber of the house of God (Nehemiah 13:8).

J.T. He was making room. The removal, at the inauguration of Hezekiah's reign, of the filth that had accumulated previously is the most striking illustration of this. He opened the doors of the house of God and then started to cleanse. The object of the

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cleansing in Corinth was to bring them to what they were, and not to make them something.

H.G. There was a loss of position there, but there was a possibility of a recovery in state. He addresses them as to what is there. The apostle takes account of what is there and works from that.

J.T. Does that not give a great leverage in the service?

H.G. A man might buy a farm that was full of weeds but he knows the fertility of the soil underneath. He works and spends a lot of time on it, but he gets wonderful results in the end. In the second epistle Paul is recompensed.

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. On farms some weeds grow best on good land. You always find the most abundant growth there. The enemy brings in things to spoil where the best state is.

J.T. That was what was going on at Corinth. The good soil was there: "I have much people in this city", Acts 18:10.

J.B. He would be sanctified and he would be justified. He will bring them back to their sanctification and their justification. And that would be "in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God".

J.T. I think he appeals to them in the terms used "The name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God". He even appeals to their affections. He knew the Lord was there. He was aiming at their affections in using the name of the Lord Jesus. Any heart that had been affected by it in earlier days would be touched by the reference to it and to the Spirit of our God.

J.B. That would bring in the blessed character set for it in that name and authority.

J.T. We shall see in chapter 12 how one can say "Lord Jesus". No one can say"Lord Jesus"except by the Spirit.

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J.B. Is it not true reverence?

H.G. I suppose the use of the title "Lord Jesus" would indicate that you are prepared to go all the way and become like that Man. The apostle could say, "Who art thou, Lord?" He then puts the Lord on the throne of his heart. The Lord would capture his affections by the magnificence of His love.

J.T. Quite so. "If any one love not the Lord Jesus Christ"; Paul had such a sense of the Person.

J.B. The priests were to bless in the name of the Lord and they were to call His name upon the people in the blessing. It is a wonderful truth in regard to God's people of wanting the name of Jehovah upon them.

J.T. You are impressed here at the skill in getting at the affections of the brethren. He never fails to bring out what gets to their hearts, and then as regards their bodies. He is speaking about what the body of the believer is; "Do ye not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you?" How appealing all that is! And yet he is dealing with these terrible things. He had already dealt with that sin to which he alluded in chapter 5, so he does not go back to it here. He is now appealing to their hearts: "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God?" (chapter 3: 16). There is an appeal in it; it is like a mother going down to her children to discipline them, and saying, 'Do you not know who you are and who your parents are?'

J.B. Is it the thought here that one's individual body was the temple of the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Yes; it is to bring that side out. It is the character of the thing. It gives the person a great place, and shows what is of worth in the person to God. He is bought with a price.

H.G. Why does he regard them collectively? He says, "Do ye not know that ye are the temple ... ?"

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J.T. If you use the article you have the whole thought.

H.G. The people of the temple.

J.T. But if you leave the article out, it just is a character that applies there. Inasmuch as he has brought that out to them, that they are temple of God, it is now a question of their bodies. He does not have to refer to that again. The Holy Spirit being in one raises a question as to one's state and holiness, as to whether I am in keeping with that. It is not that I should become that but that I am that and in keeping with it.

J.B. It would be the Holy Spirit bodywise with regard to our bodies.

J.T. Well, it is possible that the actual body of the believer is brought in to the present economy of God. It is a wonderful economy of the actual body and the believer is brought into that. When I pass out of this body, when I die, I cease to be part of the economy, because the economy has reference to what is down here.

J.B. In John 7 what would be the difference, if any, between this and that?

J.T. There is none. That is John's line, the individual, especially in the first part of his gospel. It is the question of the Spirit in the individual. How great a believer is! "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water". It must include the believer's body. If I pass out of my body, I become dissolved for a moment. The economy has to do with the saints down here, and shows how great the conception of the body is.

H.G. It is most important that for the time being you do not have the economy with you when you have left your body.

J.T. The spirit, soul, and body of a believer are to be sanctified and purified. We will pass on to chapter 7 which deals with a matter which is very

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complicated. The marriage question is one of the most complicated among christians. Chapter 7 is the marriage chapter. It is the word of God governing marriage, and it should be read by every young believer, especially, because God is very mindful and pitiful and tender in consideration for us and He warns and instructs us in this chapter in regard to the marriage habit. What comes out is that the apostle discriminates between what the Spirit says and his own particular judgment. The believer has to learn in dealing with these particular matters to have his own formed judgment, as God says to him, 'Now you have your spirit and your soul and your body, and I have given you My Spirit to help you. Now see what you can do yourself, whether you are a man able to form a judgment'. Very few of us are able to form a judgment.

Rem. That does not excuse us at all.

J.T. The point is that we should be what God puts there. He has endowed us with faculties, and, besides that He has given us the Spirit. Now what can you make of it?

H.G. It puts things on the highest possible spiritual level on which Paul stood as a man. How intensely spiritual he, an unmarried man, must have been to have written a chapter like this!

J.T. It is a marvellous suggestion as to how the believer can regard himself as distinct from the Spirit in him. It arises from our inward analysis according to Romans 7. We need to go back to the beginning to see if we have made an analysis as to our inward state. The psalmist called on all that was within him to praise God. You want to be sure that what you are calling upon is all right, and that you can call upon all that is within you, because, as you said, the ten lepers would refer to these ten things in chapter 6. There are thirteen in Mark 7, thirteen things that go out. Not only are they dormant inside

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but they go out of a man and they go out through this epistle. They proceed out of the heart of a man. You cannot call on them to praise God; they must be dealt with.

H.G. You feel the more spiritual you are the more you appreciate the judgment of a spiritual man. You do not need exactly the word of Scripture. Paul speaks of his own judgment and that from God, too. You feel the value of the judgment of a spiritual man that has been in the presence of God. He has made an analysis of himself, and can speak in that sense especially, since he is not governed by what he is naturally.

J.T. You can understand how a man, by analysing himself and by the washing process inwardly, is purified.

H.G. But do you not feel that a great many of the Lord's people have never been in the presence of God? People raise their hands in horror if it is suggested that they could have done the same things themselves.

J.T. Well, you are getting at it. There never has been an analysis of what has been inside.

Rem. Analysing oneself is a continual process.

J.T. It is. Romans 7 is the beginning of it. It is constant repentance. Luke 15 says, "There shall be joy in heaven for one repenting sinner". I do not believe that the word ever ceases to be active in that man. You always discover something that you never saw before.

H.G. I heard S.J.B.C. say, "O wretched man that I am!"

J.T. You would feel the wretchedness that is in yourself. Then heaven is pleased with repenting sinners all the time. One would like to hear the apostle communicating things by the Spirit. When he says anything by the Spirit it is authoritative; but now he says, 'Here is a point on which I have to

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give you my own judgment'. It seems to me that it is very fine to hear a man speak that way; it is not divinely authoritative but it has weight. It is the man, the quality of the man, that you are dealing with now. He leaves it with you. I would say to Paul that this has as much weight in my soul as anything that he said. You may depend that he did not have the slightest tremor from the Spirit to check it. He let Paul say it without saying anything.

Rem. He says it emphatically.

J.T. Quite. The Holy Spirit would not let that pass if He had anything against it. The vow of the woman in Numbers was to stand if neither father or husband disallowed it when it was made, and here you have the Spirit saying nothing and it stands.

Rem. Did not Moses have to form judgments himself sometimes? I was thinking about his father-in-law.

J.T. There was not much credit to Moses in that because the ark was there to help the leader. Moses no doubt thought the ark should be the centre of the camp and carried there, and his father-in-law was to lead him in the wilderness. Well, the ark was to be the leader. As much as to say, I will meet the opposition first. Then the word was applied there when the ark set forward, "Rise up, Jehovah, and let thine enemies be scattered", Numbers 10:35.

J.B. The people moved first.

J.T. Yes; but when they were to set forward the ark went before. It took the place of danger. Now we will go on to chapter 12, where we come to the thought of true association with the Spirit in this epistle. Here it alludes to ministry in the assembly. It is necessarily preparatory. It is now a question of ministry in the assembly and the exercise of gift. That is to say, we now come to the public service, where the anointing comes in. As we were remarking, it appears strikingly that demons had apparently got

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into the assembly. A dreadful consideration, a terrible consideration, that this matter happened among the people of God. What conditions must have existed there when a demon got in. He tells them how they can tell whether a man is speaking under the power of and by the Spirit. Think of it!

H.G. Many of those who profess to speak with tongues speak under the influence of demons. It shows how the enemy is in that form.

J.T. Satan would get as near as possible to where God is. It is a warning to us that we should not open the doors to it. When the sons of God came up of old, Satan also came. When God opened the doors of His house in Corinth, the enemy succeeded in getting in in one way or another.

H.G. "I adjure you by Jesus, whom Paul preaches". I was thinking of that and how "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation", Matthew 12:25.

J.T. Neither Satan nor a demon ever recognises the lordship of Christ. Well, that brings out the importance of these suggestions. If we are not subject, we open the door to the devil. That is an opportunity and an advantage for the devil, and gives him a bit of territory that he can put his foot on. Satan never fails to take advantage of any attitude that is insubject, or anyone that is not subject to Christ as Lord. The world to come is said to be subjected to Christ. That is the mind of God about it. I have to see that I am not different from that.

H.G. We can be thankful for the protection of the Lord. A righteous man is thankful for the strong tower. He knows that his own safety is there.

J.T. Well now, how beautiful it is to say 'Lord Jesus'!

Ques. I suppose that is the Christian's key-note, is it not?

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J.T. Just so. How beautifully Stephen said it! "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit", Acts 7:59.

Rem. In regard to what you said about demons coming in, the spiritual man would discern that demons were there.

J.T. Quite. The apostle had in mind that the saints in Corinth were to see the spiritual power in these matters. It was an evil spiritual power in some cases. One might be carried away with the thing. The apostle gives you means by which you may tell whether it is the Spirit of God or an evil spirit. Another thing that is of great importance comes out, the economy of the Spirit; he places the Spirit first, then the Lord, then God. We might have reversed that order, but he is stressing one thing, the place of the Spirit, and His deity, and therefore he puts the Spirit first.

H.G. The end of the chapter reverts to God again. God has set certain ones in the assembly. It is the operation of the Spirit in a way..

J.T. He is the immediate distributor of the gifts. God was doing it. It reminds us of the importance of thinking in scriptural terms. The believer is awakened in a realm of light in which certain facts are brought to you. They are there even though your attention was not called to them. As soon as I am born in this world the sun and stars are in the heavens. All these things speak of what I may call my physical environment. I have to become instructed as to all these matters; I have to think in the terms of nature. I cannot go past them; I have to understand something about them. And so in the divine realm, I am awakened into wonderful light. There are great facts in it and this is one of the illustrations. The Holy Spirit is brought into that too; that must be God; He is acting sovereignly here. This is a fuller way of learning the truth than learning theory.

I am impressed with the fact; He is God. The thing

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is there. He is God. He is distributing sovereignly according to His will. I am to see the effects, and that He is God.

Rem. I was wondering why the gift of evangelising was left out from this chapter.

J.T. I think the low state of things in Corinth made it unseemly to take it in. On the other hand, the idea of signs or miracles is not suggested in Ephesians. But it is very prominent here. I think that because of the low state you do not get any word about elders in the epistles to the Corinthians. A gift is never regarded as local. The sphere here is just as large as it is in Ephesians regarding the assembly.

L.E.S. I suppose that the oracle is in its place in Ephesians. I was thinking of the contrast between the ten tribes and the two tribes. The miracles and the signs were not done so much in relation to the ten tribes.

J.T. That is very helpful. Everything was in Judah there.

H.G. The nearer you are to God, the less you need the efforts of the natural things that natural man can take account of.

J.T. The signs and the miracles are like the outside. You have to listen to what God says to you in positive ministry.

J.B. There seems to have been ability to imitate the gifts involving signs, but not the others.

J.T. Much might be spoken of the effect of the divine presence because it involves the Spirit of the Lord. But the apostle goes on to speak about the Spirit, and he gives a list of those gifts which the Spirit gives, and says, "But to each the manifestation of the Spirit is given for profit". So that is what is being pressed as to the office of the Spirit in connection with ministry; and then it develops to the idea of the Christ; the saints are viewed collectively and anointed just as the Lord was when He was here

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personally, so here now in the assembly. He reaches the anointed vessel, Christ. The anointing is the dignity and the means by which the light is diffused.

H.G. The "word of wisdom" is put first. Is it in order of its prominence?

J.T. I suppose that it was needed among them. Wisdom would have a great place; it would shut out the human element.

H.G. Would the word of wisdom simply be in regard to Christ or generally to meet a general condition?

J.T. I think it would be used in both. The Holy Spirit gives the gift of wisdom. It is recognised: that brother has that gift. You have it in David's day, counsel. Ahithophel was David's and Absalom's counsellor. His word was like an oracle but he was not reliable. He acquired a reputation. Hushai was David's friend. Ahithophel was his counsellor and he failed him. God defeated that man's counsel. This is a case when a friend is better than a counsellor. So that you have Zadok and Abiathar who go back to the city with the ark. Then there was the sudden overthrow of the system of Absalom. Hushai is called David's friend two or three times in the chapter. One friend of Christ can overthrow the whole system.

So that the two men gave counsel; all favoured Hushai; his counsel was the best. It was the best for the plans of David. Ahithophel then goes and hangs himself. He had himself before him. It is like a gift to have wisdom in your meeting. Wisdom is a general thought; a gift is a general thing; it is for the profit of the assembly. But I want to be sure that the man is a friend of David's, because he may give counsel that may go against David. Here you have the thought that the Spirit distributes wisdom. It is the 'word of wisdom'.

H.G. It is not a sign of weakness to ask for wisdom. It is wisdom to ask for wisdom.

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J.T. The point here is that it is a provision for the whole assembly. The accuracy of Scripture is remarkable. Nothing is said about eldership here. An elder is for the local assembly, not for the whole assembly. A man that has a gift is for the whole assembly.

H.G. We have felt that when a man comes to Vancouver we would like to have his wisdom at our care meeting.

J.T. He has no local authority but you can use his wisdom. A man that has a gift has a voice everywhere. He is a provision for the assembly. I think that it is quite right that a visiting brother should attend our care meetings. Why should he not? He is a member of the assembly.

W.B. But he has no local authority.

J.T. No, no local authority.

W.B. Would you say a little on the other gifts too?

J.T. The word of knowledge -- after wisdom you get knowledge. The book of Proverbs would greatly help us in this connection. It shows the place which these features have in the economy of God. The effect of this gift is seen in a man who is endowed by the Spirit of God with the knowledge of God. Wisdom is the application of a thing; knowledge is the gift whereby a man would tell you what the thing is. They go very closely together. You are struck in reading Proverbs by the use of the words, "I wisdom dwell with prudence", Proverbs 8:12. A man that has knowledge is a man that has favour in the world; he is a scientific man. If you are looking for gold you want a man who can tell you where it is likely to be; he may not put his hand on it, but he can tell you where it is likely to be. Knowledge is powerful, but the apostle says, "If I ... have not love, I am nothing", 1 Corinthians 13:2.

W.B. Wisdom and knowledge are hidden in the assembly of God.

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J.T. As we have the mind of Christ and enter into the divine realm the range of thinking is infinite. But here the saints have to do with things of administration. How important it is that a brother can name things! All that enters into the gift of knowledge. Then we have faith and gifts of signs, that is healing, the working of miracles; then we have prophecy, and the discerning of spirits; then kinds of tongues and the interpretation of tongues.

W.B. Say a word about faith. Is it universal and personal?

J.T. Well, it is a gift. It would show, I think, that we look for a proof. Faith brings God in. The list of faith in Hebrews 11 helps us all as to how things are done on that principle. Here you have the special gift of faith as given to certain persons. It is not simply faith as I am justified before God, but as an increased measure of it whereby I bring God in under certain circumstances.

H.G. Take a man like Samson; what such a one can do. In doing it he makes way for others. See what Jonathan did. Saul had six hundred men but he was not in faith. Jonathan was in faith.

J.B. Faith would bring God in in a crisis.

J.T. Jonathan won a wonderful victory.

J.B. Gideon showed faith in regard to the fleece and that showed that God would be with him.

J.T. If you have a man that can go forward in faith, it will make a way for the brethren. It might be found in a sister. The word of wisdom is not necessarily given them here, although in Ephesians He gave gifts to men, to mankind. Here that is not stressed; anyone gets it.

Rem. The wise woman of Abel, for instance; she determined things by the word of wisdom. This chapter would save one from self-dependency; it says, "If the foot say, Because I am not a hand I am

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not of the body, is it ... not indeed of the body?" We are interdependent.

J.T. Quite so. It is very beautiful how it works out in that beautiful vessel that God has in mind as the setting out of His thought; all these details enter into it. "For ... we have all been baptised". We live up to the thought of it by drinking into the Spirit. We are content; we are satisfied because we are all made to drink into one Spirit; the satisfaction is in the drinking. I think that is the climax of the subject of the Spirit as bringing the saints together in baptism and having made us to drink. We are not to be a complaining people. One of the characteristic things is to be satisfied. The people of God are not lean or dissatisfied. You do not want to pull away from the brethren. You want to be with them as much as possible. "So also is the Christ".

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BAPTISM

1 Corinthians 12:13 - 31; 1 Corinthians 14:14 - 25

W.B. I notice that you attach a great deal of importance to the moral state of the assembly to which the epistles are written. Is not some knowledge of that necessary in order to understand what is set forth?

J.T. Quite so. What gave rise to the occasion for the writing?

J.B. God allowed such conditions to come about in order that we might get the gain.

J.T. He allowed the Corinthian assembly to come into this sad condition and He seizes the opportunity of furnishing instructions as to it that have a universal bearing. So the letter is addressed to the "assembly of God which is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ". It is as if God would say, 'This state of things exists in Corinth, but you all take notice'.

H.G. Is the thought of baptism brought in in verses 12 and 13 of chapter 12: "So also is the Christ. For also in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bondmen or free, and have all been given to drink of one Spirit"?

J.T. It is not a negative thought. Water baptism is a negative thought; it does not administer anything positively. This baptism is positive. The idea is merging us positively with one another.

H.G. In the obliteration of all that is natural?

J.T. It would amount to that, of course, but it is a positive thought. The negative side of water baptism would do that. It brings us all into newness

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of life. That would mean the obliteration of all that attaches to us naturally or otherwise. I can conceive of the saints at Rome, as Phoebe brought the letter to them, and as they came to the words, "newness of life", saying, 'What does this mean? Am I to be a patrician or the like, a ruler or an emperor?' All that belonged to the old order. The word "newness", of course, means something entirely different. You could not find anything to correspond with that word in regard of life in the whole of Rome, except for just a few christians. As baptism of the Spirit is taken on, such people merge together on this new principle. We sit down together in the power of the Spirit. The idea of baptism is an overwhelming one. As water influences you, so does the spiritual thought overwhelm you altogether. It was said of the Lord, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight". John the baptist could use the word 'baptise' with a better understanding than any. He was at the Jordan where there was plenty of water. He used plenty of water. He understood the baptism of the Spirit. The Jordan was not a theory; it was a fact. So is the Holy Spirit a fact. It brings us together whatever we may have been before, obliterating all that in a positive way. Do you not think so, Mr. G.?

H.G. It is very helpful. The thought before you is that of merging in newness of life, not just in life.

J.T. Quite so. The principles of society may grade people, and some are in this class and some in that; but I may not be quite satisfied with the classifications. I may not be quite satisfied that so-and-so in the next state is in a higher rank than I am; my name and pedigree are as good as his. Obviously I am not satisfied with the classification. I think the point here is that you are classified by an arbitrary action of the Spirit in a powerful way, and that you are perfectly satisfied in that you drink into it. You can

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say that drinking is your own action, but it says here that, we "have all been given to drink of one Spirit". It is what is produced. It is a very happy thing to drink of one Spirit, the Spirit of the baptised company.

J.B. Is there any relation to John 4?

J.T. There is no idea of one living water. In John 4 it is for the individual but here it is collective and is concerned with one Spirit. John 4 would precede this. This marks a distinct advance in the truth of the body as presented in Scripture. The first reference to it doctrinally is in Romans 12 where we are said to be one body in Christ without any reference being made to the Holy Spirit. Here we are baptised into one body by the Spirit, and we drink into one Spirit. Romans takes me out of any kind of fellowship in the world. It takes me out of all that and gives me another status, one body in Christ. None of these bodies can claim to have any such status as that, one body in Christ. Here it is beyond Romans because we are baptised in the power of one Spirit into one body. We are made to drink of one Spirit. So if you lived in a town where there were freemasons, etc., you might see what they had to tell you; there may be lots of things that are mysterious, but they never give you anything positive; the more you talk about it the more mixed up you get. But I come into that town and I find a few christians and they have drunk into something, into that Spirit, and they are happy and contented in what they have got. That is the thought. So for us there is a kind of deliverance from the world in this verse. Baptism of the Spirit corresponds as an allusion to the sacrament of the Lord's supper. Whenever we sit down together at the Lord's supper, this verse fits exactly. There is the idea of merging with the brethren. A brother that has a gold ring is no better than the other who has none; they are merged together. Then as we partake of the Lord's

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supper, the cup comes. We have all been made to drink of the one Spirit; it is present in our heart. You are happy sitting down in the assembly, the place of richness and fulness.

H.G. There is a tendency to pass on to that which flows out of the Supper without appreciating the importance of the eating and the drinking.

J.T. There is the memorial side which is the breaking and eating of the bread and the drinking of the cup, but Matthew and Mark record the eating and drinking without saying anything about the memorial. Luke speaks about the memorial, but does not stress the eating.

H.G. Is the eating in Matthew and Mark in connection with the Passover supper?

J.T. "Take, eat; this is my body" is additional to the Passover. It is the Lord's body which is the food; making for brotherly unity.

H.G. Does not Paul bring it in in the previous chapter? It is a kind of merging together of the affections of the saints. They drink together in happy fellowship.

J.T. That is a very good way to put it. Rome has seven sacraments but Protestants have only two. The first sacrament takes me out of the world into the wilderness; the second supports me in the wilderness in the way of food, but Luke adds the idea of memorial which appeals to every lover of Christ.

Ques. Does not the apostle Paul get these thoughts of the Supper partly from Luke?

J.T. I think Luke got it from Paul. I think that is how it stands. The apostle Paul spoke a long time at Troas and we are not told what he said. It is for us to infer that there was a great volume of spiritual communication at that time. It was a time of spirituality. When I say that, I have in mind that in John's gospel the Lord finishes up in Bethany, in a

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great spiritual occasion in which nothing is said, except what Judas says and the Lord's correction of that. It is an important thing to notice this spiritual occasion in which nothing was said. At Troas you have just the opposite, a long discourse by Paul and then a long conversation afterwards before the breaking of bread, but there is no record of what he said. It is one of the things that is left for us to think over. The Scriptures are full of subjects for meditation what the Holy Spirit has not told us, but which exists somewhere; it never falls to the ground. None of the words of Paul fall to the ground. When we come to the record here we are told that there are certain things about the Supper, and I apprehend that even Peter would learn from Paul; he would see more closely what the Lord meant as recorded in the gospels. If Peter and Paul were to meet after this and to compare notes, you would see how the men would stand, that Paul really had more.

H.G. "Ye announce the death of the Lord, until he come". What did Paul discourse upon at Troas? Where is it?

J.T. Oh, I do not know. Troas was a warm place; Paul spent seven days there; and the brethren coming from different parts represent the work of God. They were all there; the Holy Spirit said there were many lights in the upper chamber, the scene of Paul's discourse.

J.B. What we have to come to is the wealth that lies in the Spirit. The word of the covenant and the Spirit remain with you (see Haggai 2:5).

J.T. Quite so. He misses nothing; He is the custodian of all these things. He brings to your remembrance all whatsoever the Lord has said. It is to bring out that the presence of the Holy Spirit here is a fact and not a theory.

H.G. Is it your thought that we might get divine

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impressions although we do not have scriptures for such?

J.T. Quite so. You do not minister Scripture; you minister Christ. Maybe you have the very thought that Paul had at Troas.

L.E.S. So that what the Spirit said is not recorded but it is left to those who are spiritually capable to get it now.

J.T. Well, exactly. There is nothing lost. The letter to Timothy is an example; it was written by Paul to Timothy but there is no doubt that it was never opened up of old to christians as it has been in our times. The Holy Spirit has brought out of that epistle more than was ever brought out in Timothy's day. It was written for us really. It was never taken up in the early days. Do you not think so, Mr. G.?

H.G. Very suggestive.

J.T. If anyone has the time to read about the fathers, he will not find anything about them in the epistle to Timothy.

H.G. It would be best to go back to the grandfathers.

J.T. Quite so. We can claim them. The genealogy in Matthew is to show you how the claim has been made on two or three generations. Three kings were passed over yet the link is established. We can establish the link with Paul, and pass over many generations, yet the principle is laid down in Matthew. We get the link from Paul. I do not know whether you have thought of it, but the Lord in speaking about the defection of Judas in John 13:20, says, "He who receives whomsoever I shall send receives me". That is to validate the testimony of Judas that it did not fall to the ground. He was a minister and the Lord had sent him. The testimony comes that way. I do not need to take him as that, but I can go back to the grandfathers, go back to Paul. When

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I go back I find that the Holy Spirit has dismissed two or three kings. I do not know if I am speaking intelligibly to the brethren, but the Lord said, "He who receives whomsoever I shall send, receives me". If the Lord starts a thing, I can link it back to that source. I should not wonder if some of the popes gave good things, gave out truth, but that does not establish them as right by any means. The great thing is to be able to take what is of God and to take it back to its source.

Now I would refer to verse 15; can I start and begin an independent move under these circumstances? Can I say to the foot, "Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body"? Can I begin an independent movement? If I am in the good of verse 13 I cannot do it. The idea of being independent or isolating myself is shut out.

H.G. You could only do so if there were evil.

J.T. You are dealing with an established fact here. You are baptised. We have been made to drink into one Spirit. As having part in that, can I start an independent movement? The question here is not one of separating from evil, but 'because I am not an eye or an ear, I am not of the body'.

L.E.S. How would that work out individually?

J.T. It would mean that I am not getting the place that I wished, and that I am seeking a place for myself.

H.G. It suggests that because you feel that you are not outstanding in the body, you sink into nothingness.

J.T. Well, it says here, "If the foot say, Because I am not a hand I am not of the body". What is the ground of the foot saying, "I am not a hand"? I think it would work out as a person being dissatisfied with the place that he has.

W.B. You would say that each one has a place in the body?

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J.T. Yes. The point here is to take the place given you; the idea is that it is an organism.

H.G. I thought that it would encourage everybody to find their place and to function in that place. Everyone is to be serviceable in some way in the body.

J.T. The principle, as applied to the Lord's people, is clear enough; each member of the body should function. We are so many units and if I do not have the place that I desire, if I am functioning as a foot and would rather be a hand and become one doing something instead of walking around, that is trying to start an independent movement: I would rather be someone that does things; there is a reputation in doing things. Then the next danger would be of schism. "The eye cannot say to the hand, I have not need of thee; or again, the head to the feet, I have not need of you". We are dependent on one another.

H.G. A bishop would take the position that he is not dependent on the people, but that they are dependent on him.

J.T. He would indeed. The first allusion would check individualism and isolation; the second would check clericalism by the truth of the body.

H.G. Sometimes you find one's brethren who are not functioning because of youthfulness, but there is something potential in them.

W.B. Do you not think that a good many are discouraged and feel that they are humble, and have no incentive in their minds to go on? They drag along in a discouraged sort of way.

H.G. I think it works out in the meetings. One hears of some who are hidden away for a long time, and are then brought into view.

J.T. The Lord is pleased with places where meetings that are somewhat large are dividing up; where He is starting new gatherings. He is making them available to help others, and I have observed that

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in many places where this has been done, that there is an increased measure of spiritual power. Younger brothers that have never said anything come forward.

H.G. There seems always to be an inclination to move in regard to any light that God may give us.

J.T. Brethren like the big meetings. There is a little of the Babylonish touch in it. You have a meeting in a town where a hundred are breaking bread, and you make three meetings out of the one. You have three meetings going on instead of one, and the results for the Lord are increased. There is more testimony and more doors are opened for people to come in and get help.

L.E.S. The word in Deuteronomy in regard to fewness would come in here.

J.T. That is right. It is paradoxical that the blessing should be marked by fewness; the opposite of a blessing would be a curse. There was a curse in Bethesda where the mind of God was supposed to have been known and acted on. The small gatherings depend on the Lord. We do not want ten leaders to tell us what to do; we want the Spirit. If they stand up and say, 'If you do not do what we say, we will withdraw', it is a curse.

E.Z. "For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst" would show that two or three is the smallest possible unit.

J.T. The idea is fewness there and it is to bring out that the power is with the few, even two of you. But the general principle of God in regard to the assembly is more companies. This section is to bring out men; if you can get a few men, that is the idea. It was said of Reuben, "Let his men be few"; men that live (Deuteronomy 33:6).

Rem. There must be some reason why they are grown men; they have had experience.

J.T. It is like Gideon who was to select a seven-year-old bullock. A three-year-old bullock is just as

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large, but not as orderly. The great cry is for men.

H.G. There is a man there. What He wants is men. You like to be a man yourself.

J.T. Those fingers that wrote on the wall were not the fingers of a novice; they were the fingers of the hand of a man. The queen-mother knew about a man. She was an overcomer; she came in when the fingers wrote on the wall and she knew about Daniel. A man is a man in any kingdom. A report goes out about something; we all listen to it, and tell it to others, just like a lot of children. A man would ask about such a report, 'Is it true?' The Lord is looking for men.

Rem. Would you say that the soul of man in a sense is the same as a woman?

J.T. Having your senses exercised and discerning between good and evil. The Lord said, "The men whom thou gavest me". They were not babes exactly. He made them. He said to His Father, "Thou hast ... revealed them to babes". They would be under His tutelage at first and for some time. They are the disciples and they became grown men under His tutelage.

H.G. The blending seems to be exercised that there might be no division in the body but that the members might have the same regard one for another, a sort of balance. One feels that it is hardly possible in the large meetings.

J.T. That is right; one has to admit that. You do not know some of the names, and you feel that you miss if you cannot address them by their name; the link is weak.

H.G. You feel that you would like to have amongst you brethren who come to you and tell you that they have been praying for you. It might be very humbling but you would like to have it. They are concerned about your spiritual welfare, having the same concern one for the other.

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J.T. It is remarkable how many names Paul knew in that long list in Romans 16, and he salutes each one of them. He mentions them by name and he can say something about each.

H.G. It is like the high priest almost; he has all their names.

J.T. Quite so. What this chapter is leading up to is grown men with a view to ministering things and carrying on properly in the assembly. God would have men, not madmen, persons who like to be taught. The man in Decapolis was clothed and in his right mind, and there was not another there, as far as we know, who wanted to go on with the Lord. Why should he stay? The Lord left him there; he was a man. Then the next miracle or sign in that chapter was the healing of the woman whom the Lord calls, "Daughter". The next is Jairus's little girl raised up. These three appear in Luke 8, and are illustrative of assembly material: the man, the woman, and the girl, the young life. You have those three elements in the believer, and the apostle is aiming at them there. The spiritual man was dominant: "I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray also with the understanding". It is thus that we may have some idea of what God designs in the assembly as to balance, sobriety and intelligence.

J.B. There would be no such thing as a person speaking and not knowing what he was talking about.

J.T. It is not men only, but it may be sisters also. The sister in Luke 8 would be silent in the meeting, but she would be most interesting to speak to. She is a transparent woman and tells them all that she knew. The little girl that was raised up would be a most interesting child, and there is a more spiritual touch in her than there is in the man. The Lord would not take anyone in to see her except Peter, James and John and her father and mother. The assembly is made up of these three who reflect what

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is in heaven. It is fresh young life, but spiritual life. Paul is aiming at conditions like that in Corinth. He brings in chapter 13 to explain fully his thought of what man is according to God. He has light. You see his desire there prominently. If you want gift, you desire the right kind of a gift that can exercise love. It operates in the meeting where the whole assembly comes together. Chapter 11 is coming together in assembly, while chapter 14 is the whole assembly coming together in one place. It makes it the most attractive place, a most attractive meeting. They come together and wait on the Lord, and there is room for the Spirit to use men to minister.

J.B. Is that like that which took place at Troas?

J.T. They were breaking bread there. I do not think that that is a pattern meeting at all. You get the pattern in Corinthians. It is the public side of things. God is the God of order. Troas would link more with the whole period; there is a prophetic touch about it.

L.E.S. Would you say that the meeting suggested in chapter 14 is on the same level as that in chapter 11?

J.T. No, not quite. Coming together in assembly is descriptive, and I believe it begins the week. The Lord's supper belongs to it. The two meetings are not described in the same way. In chapter 11 it is "when ye come together in assembly". That is the first time he mentions it. In "when ye come therefore together into one place" combines the two thoughts, coming together in assembly and coming together in one place. The idea is that all the persons of the assembly in the place are in one room.

H.G. If you have three meetings in the town, all three would come together. You could have any number together in assembly like this.

J.T. So you have the Lord ministering to large numbers, a group of five hundred brethren at once. But then there is the idea of the very few, and it

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alludes to the assembly, the saints having direct touch with one another. It is the Lord's instrument, so to speak. In the whole company coming together in assembly, it is not the assembly doing anything, but the gifts doing it.

L.E.S. It would involve intense spiritual sensitiveness.

J.T. The Lord is holding this vessel or instrument under His hand. In chapter 14 He ministers to them through a gift.

W.B. They come together without any official power, but they are together in assembly character.

J.T. Chapter 11 is written having in view the assembly in session and functioning in itself as an instrument. It is not a question of any person in it. When the whole assembly comes together, it is more for gift to function.

W.B. Is fulness also an advantage? When the assembly comes together in one place, it is an advantage to have many, and the more the better.

J.T. It is quite obvious that that is so.

Ques. Is there a difference between verses 18 and 20 of chapter 11?

J.T. They are alike, but verse 20 brings in the idea of one place. On the day of Pentecost, it says, they were together in one place. I am not sure that we have this exact expression elsewhere of coming together in assembly. The Authorised Version does not give this; we should all have the New Translation when reading Scripture. It is very helpful, and a legacy for the assembly.

H.G. Why not use it in the meetings?

J.T. I think it is wise to keep it out lest we might appear to have a Bible of our own. It is wise to keep the Authorised Version that God has so blessed.

H.G. I should be very afraid to speak on a subject without looking at the New Translation first.

J.T. God has provided it.

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J.B. Very few like the Revised Version, 1881.

J.T. It was a very inaccurate translation and is not to be trusted.

H.G. Chapter 12: 7 would suggest a manifestation of the Lord.

J.T. Quite so. It seems that the whole assembly is included; it says, "to each".

H.G. Is there the power of love in exercising the gifts? Divine affection is set for the welfare of the saints.

J.T. Yes, there is something very fine about a full-grown man according to Christ. He has ability to serve the saints, and he has something that he can use in serving them. And then he can be restful if some other brother can give something and serve Christ (and be silent himself). It requires grace, but it is what the Lord is aiming at.

H.G. Is verse 26 spoken approvingly or otherwise? Every man ought to have something to give, but he should not come to give it.

J.T. Yes, it is a question of wealth. He controls himself to refrain from giving it if the Spirit is not in it.

H.G. I do not think it enters the mind of the average brother that in a meeting of this character he might have something; so-and-so has something -- that is not my job at all.

J.T. This matter of the 'open' meeting resolves itself very largely into one of confidence. Whether the Lord has confidence in us to allow us to get up, and whether I have enough confidence to wait on you, or whether I think I can do better myself. Am I going to betray the confidence of my brethren, and, instead of affording them an opportunity, am I going to take it myself?

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A LARGE PLACE

2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; 2 Corinthians 3:1 - 18

J.T. We were observing how the apostle Paul was on a higher spiritual level and in easier spiritual circumstances in writing this letter than he was in writing the first. The Lord is pleased to give us more, and to lead us on to a "large place", Psalm 118:5. When the activities of the flesh are felt they are necessarily a limitation, but the apostle intimates later that his heart was expanded because of the effect of the first letter on the saints at Corinth; in that letter he had spoken of how they were called into the fellowship of the Son of God, of the One who is now on high; so he is now on a higher plane. The way in which Paul had ministered Christ amongst them shows that it was not an unattractive state of things that he presented to them in the preaching, but finality in the Person of the Son of God who "did not become yea and nay, but yea is in him. For whatever promises of God there are, in him is the yea, and in him the amen". And so, after that, he speaks about God working on the line of establishment. He establishes us with you, and He has anointed us, and sealed us, and given us the earnest of the Spirit. So that whilst in our meetings there has been a tendency to tear down things and stir things up so that we might be cleansed and adjusted by constant ministry amongst us, the Lord may help us now on the line of positive establishment and building up. What He loves to do is to establish us together. The apostle says, "he that establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, is God, who also has sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts".

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J.B. He does not speak of the earnest of the Spirit in the first epistle at all, but now he is free to go on to what the Spirit is the earnest of.

J.T. Yes, you get that in chapter 5 which we may touch on later; it is of the great works of God.

J.B. In the beginning of the first epistle he speaks of "things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard", but he does not develop that in the first epistle.

J.T. I think in this chapter there is a personal touch of God in the particular interest He has in us. So that God is turning round and saying plainly now that He wants to come in and establish Himself with us. He has anointed us and given us the earnest of the Spirit without saying what the earnest is of. He has just given It in that way. Great as the Spirit is, He is the Earnest.

Rem. When Joseph spoke to his brethren in the beginning was it not with the intention that a state should be arrived at in which he could enjoy what was his part?

J.T. That just fits in here. Joseph's circumstances, under which he appears in administration, apply somewhat to the present time, a universal famine. The famine in Egypt in Abraham's time was restricted; it was in the land. In Joseph's time, it was world-wide. The great end in view was to bring the people of God into evidence, to bring them out in relation to Joseph, in testimony to Christ. I think that is what is going on. The Lord is using the great stress of these days to bring His people into evidence, and to bring them into relation with the true Joseph. But there had to be very hard dealings with them before they came into happy, easy, relations with Joseph.

Rem. What would you say as to the hard dealings just now?

J.T. Everywhere you go you see brethren that are in hard circumstances, but there is a lot behind it.

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We shall see, and we are seeing, the results. What comes out in that great famine is that the people of God begin to acknowledge smallness. The first expression of the sons of Jacob was for corn. There was no idea of limitation of quantity, but just to get corn. Light was with Jacob as to where the food was; on the second visit he directs his sons to buy a little; "Buy us a little food". That, I think, is significant. It is the principle of reduction. You have seen great prosperity abounding in the world in recent years; money came in easily. We swell out as we get the money. Of course the more we do it, the worse we are inwardly, the smaller we are inwardly. The Lord does not like that. Prosperity of that kind is only hindering the work. It is a question whether we can say, like Jacob, "Go again, buy us a little food"; I will use a smaller house; I will use a smaller motor car. I am becoming more and more like the Lord as I become reduced, and I believe that the second letter brings out the reduction in which Paul himself was reduced; but his heart was expanded. They were helped; let your heart expand itself. Let it be as if notice was given to me to let my heart expand itself.

Rem. So from their hearts they learned, and they got reduced; and from God's side much was revealed.

H.G. Does he show them, in his coming to Corinth, that there was not anything at all of the flesh? I suppose there was yea and nay in the covenant made with Israel.

J.T. I suppose so. The apostle was perfectly simple about his movements. He was not like a. man that would say, 'I will dine with you', and then cancel the appointment. I think he was perfectly transparent; he has the simplicity of Christ.

H.G. He moved on the high level of the Son of God in that way. There was nothing fleshly about him. He moved with strict precision as regarding Christ.

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J.T. I thought that. He had called attention to what was needful for ministry in chapters 12, 13 and 14 of the first letter. He brings out what the Spirit was doing but he calls on the vessels themselves that they should be those through whom the Spirit would minister. God makes a great deal of the activity of the Spirit and also of the vessels through whom He would minister. I suppose Paul brings that out in this letter as to himself; how he was a competent minister in keeping with his ministry.

H.G. What was the point in preaching the Son of God, Jesus Christ? Was it that God has no other thought for man? And would Paul preach with that in view, bringing in a real pattern in the Son of God?

J.T. I thought so. There was a three-fold preaching, too. I suppose you might have listened to Paul there, and listened to Silvanus and Timotheus. There was a perfect likeness in their teaching but each preached from his own point of view.

J.B. Does he not allude to the positive character of the preaching, the Son of God?

J.T. He does. The three-fold testimony makes it complete. It was not only his but that of the other two as well. I think it is very beautiful how he associates the other two with him because when he came down he was pressed on account of the word.

H.G. Does Jesus Christ present the order of the man, and the Son of God the relationship?

J.T. I thought so.

H.G. He was dealing much with the other order of man in the first epistle.

J.T. He now would bring in that order. The first epistle presented Jesus Christ as the foundation to be built on. The apostle is now freer to bring in the new scene. How delightful to his heart it must have been to talk of the Son of God, that he might announce Him among the nations as glad tidings! How delightful it would have been to listen to one of Paul's

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addresses on the Son of God! The title, 'the Son of God', is more distinctive but 'His Son' is in relation to God. Affection enters more into that.

H.G. Peculiar intimacy.

J.T. Yes. The Son of God would stand out in the history of these three brothers, Paul, Silvanus and Timotheus. It was designed that this great testimony should be set out in Corinth in a delivering sort of way. The man in Macedonia said, "Pass over into Macedonia and help us". That was not the orderly Greek. The orderly Greek was alluded to in Romans 2 "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man". That man was strong at Corinth, and I suppose that this threefold testimony would serve to displace him from the hearts of the saints, the Lord's people. They had that man, the orderly Greek idea, there, but not the divine idea. The Greek idea would be to harden. One has said that the harder the stone is, the finer the polish; in a man that has to be displaced.

L.E.S. Would the ministry of the new covenant be that He is seeking the hearts? Would that be in view in the preaching of the Son of God? The thought of affection is there.

J.T. The third chapter is the divine way of bringing us to the Son of God; it is not the Greek educational idea of polish, the harder the stone the better the polish. But it is by taking away the heart of stone and giving us the heart of flesh, something that is impressionable, something that He can present His Son to. It is to bring all into conformity to the image of His Son, by presenting Him in powerful ministry to us; gift is for us. It is powerful forceful ministry, like the four mighty winds blowing in Ezekiel. I think that the three-fold service here is God's thought for us, bringing it in in the power of gifts, by preaching. That is the point, the Son of God that was preached by me. Preaching is not merely saying things. Anyone can get up and give

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the doctrine of the gospel but that is not preaching. Preaching is gift; it has power behind it, the force of the thing in it. As soon as you see this, you say how good God was to force the power of that Man on my soul! You may have the most powerful preaching and yet it cannot affect a heart of stone, so God gives us a new heart of flesh and takes away the heart of stone. It is an impressionable idea in chapter 3. It is remarkable how in such a simple way the idea of God appears in the gospel address that was preached after the Holy Spirit came down. Peter stood up with the eleven. It was Peter and he said, "Give heed to my words". He has authority behind it; he does not say, 'Listen to God's word'. Surely listen to God's word, but Peter says, "Give heed to my words". Here is a man that has authority; he has got something. The others were saying things but there were no converts until Peter preached.

W.B. Are you connecting gift with power?

J.T. I am connecting power with gift. It is important to notice that there are very few preachers in Scripture. Not that you would discourage anyone from getting up and speaking about the Lord, because the Lord can use what you say. But we do not hear of any converts until Peter preached.

Rem. The power of God pervades in the hearts of those that hear.

J.T. You have to reckon on that, but here you are dealing with Peter.

W.B. There are very few that can preach. How about the one that feels that he has no power and yet was asked to preach?

J.T. Why was he asked to preach? Who asked him to preach? In our meetings they go around and ask them to preach. Of course the latent gift has to have an opportunity, but if it is latent, let it show itself. Philip is an illustration. Nothing is said about gift in him but he went down to Samaria and preached

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the Christ. It is for you to do. You qualify yourself. Do not say, 'I do not get an opportunity'. It is for you to make it. Nothing is said about Philip being sent to Samaria, he went. I think it is set down in that very remarkable way to show that it applies to all brethren. If you have a gift it is for you to show it.

Rem. "It is woe to me if I should not announce the glad tidings", 1 Corinthians 9:16.

J.T. Paul was sent there, and administration was given to him. Philip was most distinguished for service. First he preached in Samaria, and he works miracles there. He goes down to Gaza to a desert place. It is a providential occurrence and as he is in the desert a lone man comes along. The Holy Spirit spoke to him as if to honour him, because he moved in the light given to him. Now the Holy Spirit says, "Approach and join this chariot". How is he going to approach? I have to learn to approach people. He ran and approached the chariot. There was a most wonderful result. After he had finished that work, and as they came out of the water, he was caught up by the Holy Spirit. He raptured him.

Rem. "It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe". It is foolish to the natural man.

J.B. Paul instructed Timothy to do the work of an evangelist (2 Timothy 4:5). Do you not think that was gift in that way? Was he not engaged in carrying out the instructions in the end of Mark's gospel in regard to preaching the gospel to every creature?

J.T. Mark begins with the Son of God. In chapter 3 of this epistle we see that there has been a change of heart. If there is a change from a stony heart to a heart of flesh, the most powerful preaching must have an effect. The heart of flesh was there. It is a question of materials and I think there is a touch in this second epistle as if Paul almost brought

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in the materials himself. When Moses went up the second time into the mount (Exodus 34:1), Jehovah says to him, "Hew for thyself two tables of stone", and I was thinking that there was a little allusion to that in regard to Paul. There was a mighty work in Corinth. Although it was almost obliterated, still it survived. God wrote on the tables of Moses and He wrote on the fleshy tables of the hearts of the Corinthians.

H.G. I was struck with Mark 1:17 where the Lord says, "I will make you to become fishers of men". Simon seems to be the outstanding man whilst Andrew was to work more unseen.

J.T. John the evangelist brings out Andrew more clearly. He gives him an excellent start. The next time you find him he is talking to a little boy about five loaves and two fishes. John 6 is a sort of test, and the Lord would see if the twelve would get help. He says to Philip, 'How should we feed all these, Philip?' Philip was not getting any help. I mean that is the way the thing fits into your mind in a meeting like this. Are the brothers getting any help? The Lord knew what He was going to do, but it was a question of bringing out Philip, and Philip fails entirely. He is on a commercial line: 'two hundred pennyworth of bread'. It is just a matter of how much you can get for two hundred pence. Then Andrew says, 'There is a little boy here'. There was a little boy but Philip did not see him. It is to a man's credit if he knows a man who can preach well; he is a little boy but he has got something. Get your eye on somebody that has something. That is all the company heard about him. Andrew fails too, but he is a little better than Philip. The next time you find them both together is in chapter 12. The Greeks had come to see the Lord Jesus. It is said that they desired to see Him. Philip and Andrew both come and tell the Lord about the Greeks. The Son of man

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and not the Greeks should be glorified. John's gospel brings out Andrew and you see the man just as he is.

H.G. Simon got the touch from Christ. Andrew was smaller but did most at the first.

J.T. I think John shows us that he has ideas; he has a great idea of bringing out personages. He mentions John the baptist. He shows Andrew up well at the beginning. He found Simon, and Philip found Nathanael. Many of us start well but we do not show up so well afterwards. The Scriptures are not merely historical, but they are moral in their application. Scripture is supposed to have a special power in your midst. I think that this chapter 3 is a kind of challenge as to the ministry that Paul had but which he could not write on them. One is challenged as to one's work. The writing is by the Spirit of the living God.

Rem. It is a good thing that we have directions as to how the hewing should be done.

J.T. Moses would have to test his memory as to how the hewing should be done. It is a great tribute to his memory. He had seen the stones broken, the tables shattered. He had to remember and the Holy Spirit helps us to remember. All accuracy lies in the Spirit. So Moses had to hew out two stones and they had to be like the first. What a tribute to Moses it is that he was able to do this!

H.G. How do you understand Paul making the corrections so emphatic in the first epistle?

J.T. I think there was great jubilance of soul in the report of Titus that he gives here. "Yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear!" God can do nothing with us without judgment. So Moses goes up with these two tables, and God comes down to meet him and proclaims the name of Jehovah, and then He makes another covenant, but it is not a literal covenant; it is a covenant in which the word 'tenor' is used. We

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have the first covenant in chapters 20 to 23, but in the second in chapter 34, we have "After the tenor of these words have I made a covenant with thee and with Israel". What glory shone up there! He caused His glory to pass before Moses. He wrote on the tables; He did the writing.

Rem. It is very encouraging that when we are ready, God will write.

J.T. Yes. We are challenged whether we have anything for God to write on. Writing material is a great thought in Scripture.

W.B. That is a very great exercise. Your thought is that Paul's preaching provides material, just as Moses' hewing out the stones provided material for God to write on.

J.T. Yes. But as we were saying, these things are not historical. They are incidents to be thought over for our instruction, for there is always a moral bearing in Scripture. What does it mean today? "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations on the principle of faith, announced beforehand the glad tidings to Abraham", Galatians 3:8. When you look at that chapter you wonder what you have that God can write on. To the overcomer in Philadelphia He said, "Him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God ... and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, ... and my new name". It is wonderful material.

Rem. If you are seeking to produce material in others you would first see that you have it in yourself.

J.T. Yes. The minister is a feeling kind of man, a tender-hearted man. The Lord was like that.

J.B. Moses comes into the shining and he grows wonderfully.

J.T. Yes. You get the shining; you get the glory. The apostle is minimising it here, but he

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acknowledges that there is a glory in the old covenant. It was a question of comparison.

I have been struck lately with the wideness of the work of God; the wide stretch from the Pacific Coast, and China, and New Zealand and Australia, worldwide. You might say there has been writing under God's work. Paul had fully preached the gospel of Christ, a wonderful complete work, the full preaching of the gospel of Christ.

L.E.S. Do you think the veil remains on many hearts today morally speaking?

J.T. Do you mean of the Jews?

L.E.S. No, I mean generally.

J.T. Oh, I am sure. That is, you hope that God is turning to account this time to soften our hearts to His own impressions by the Spirit of the living God. It is a rare thing that Paul brings in the living God; it really belongs to Peter, for it is a Jewish touch.

H. G. The city is called that: "The city of the living God".

J.T. Paul would have used that, too. The idea seems to have been connected with ministry among the Jews where they had to do with dead things.

J.B. What has been written by the Spirit of the living God?

J.T. Well, it is the epistle of Christ. It is what Christ is.

J.B. And as that is written, it comes out in that character.

J.T. He says, "Ye are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read of all men, being manifested to be Christ's epistle ministered by us, written, not with ink, but the Spirit of the living God; not on stone tables, but on fleshy tables of the heart". He applies all that to them. The first thing is the place they had in Paul's heart. If I want to speak about the impressionability of the place the saints should

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be in, the test would be the place they have in my heart.

H.G. I was wondering if Christ was the Writer in our hearts.

J.T. Yes, I think so, with the Spirit of the living God. Christ has to do with it, too. He is the Mediator of the new covenant. Moses was given the hewing of the tables, and Paul was brought in here as a kind of lubricant in the production of the material, so that he says, "Ye are our letter, written in our hearts". Now that is a very practical way of presenting it. What are you talking about? You are talking about writing and material. 'Well', he says, 'did you ever hear me speak about the Corinthians?' 'Yes'. 'What did you hear me say about them?' 'Well, you always spoke well of them'. 'That is what I mean; the Corinthians are always on my heart; I love them. They are my work under God'. So what does that mean for us? It means that I want to love the brethren; I should speak well of them. The apostle boasted about the Corinthians; he was afraid that they might belie his boasting. He had a great love for them, for they were his work after all. The word of God in his soul gave him a great range. The Corinthians were Christ's epistle written by the grace of the living God. But he makes it very simple and practical: "Ye are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read of all men". Wherever he went he spoke about them. They were not his in the sense of a party, but in regard of the workmanship of God. But he could still bring them out and speak well of them because he loved them.

J.B. He would recognise what was of Christ written there.

J.T. Yes, and I think he can widen out now to speak about this great matter, the Spirit of the living God. Then he goes on to say more in regard of the Spirit, which brings in what we are speaking of;

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that would be the Lord, the Lord is that Spirit. He goes on from the idea of Christ to that of the Lord. This great operation requires that authority of the Lord in my soul; it is needful to make the new covenant effective. The Lord is the Spirit Itself; without Him it would be a dead letter.

J.B. If you have the Spirit of the new covenant, you have the substance.

J.T. Yes. The Lord being the Spirit alludes to the way it brings the love of God into our souls. He does that for each one of us.

W.B. Say a little on the last verse before we close.

J.T. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". There is authority in it, but it is more like the king in Jeshurun. He does not have to tell anyone that He is king; it is more that He reigns in the affections now. He is doing the most blessed work for us. He could not do anything greater than bring the love of God in and do it directly, and He acquires a place in the hearts of the brethren; He was king in Jeshurun. One has often found it in meetings like this where the Lord is in His place; the brethren loosen up and they talk freely about the things of God. He brings in again the link between them and Him: "But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit". It is like the whole human race looking at the sun. It is the only sun, but millions and millions of people can look at it at the same time.

J.B. Would this be the richness of what we had in the first chapter? "Now he that establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, is God".

J.T. Here it is, "we all". There is a similar effect on all. It is one of the formative features that we get as we behold the glory; we are changed to the same image. We cannot say where the matter ends, or if it does end; it is from glory to glory. The

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means are there by which we are transformed, formed and beholding. It is the action of Christ as well, "even as by the Lord the Spirit"; His action goes on. I think the word "Spirit" has to be carefully noted here; it is intelligible as He is a divine Person. We are in the presence of very great and wonderful things. The word translated 'changed' is the same as is used in regard to the Lord Himself on the mount of transfiguration (Matthew 17:2). "He was transfigured before them". It is a word which means a complete change. The same image affects all of us the same in a remarkable way.

H.G. Paul was a wonderful expression of Christ in this wonderful chapter.

J.T. Yes, he is indeed. I wish the brethren could get in line with it in regard to the light. It is the Spirit; when the Lord is the Spirit of the meeting, it is a spirit of dominance, but it is a spirit of liberty at the same time. We have all been made to drink into one Spirit. The whole idea is the one Spirit. The Lord being the Spirit is a very remarkable thing. As we are getting to the Lord, He Himself is bringing the thoughts of God into our souls, and one is the sense of dominance. He is dominating, but there is liberty, and there is formation going on.

H.G. Is the Lord the essence of the thing?

J.T. Yes. The idea is dominance.

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THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE SPIRIT

2 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 6:6; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Nehemiah 12:27 - 31, 38 - 43

J.T. We have three distinct subjects in these scriptures that have been read in the second epistle. The first is what we have been wrought for, resurrection, a change of our bodies so that what is mortal is swallowed up by life, a very great subject bearing especially on a great many others. The second subject is a minister; Paul appears in this way throughout the letter, and he is manifestly one of God's ministers. The Holy Spirit mentions Himself in a number of features; some thirty-seven such features characterise the apostle; One of them is the Holy Spirit who allows Himself to be mentioned in that way in relation to God's minister. Finally there is the subject of fellowship, culminating in the fellowship of the Spirit. How enlivening, and beautifying and strengthening is the thought of the Holy Spirit mentioning Himself in developing this subject! So the ideas that we considered in chapter 1, the anointing, the earnest and the sealing, are here in relation to this great work of the swallowing up of what is mortal by life. All that is a matter that is to be taken hold of. But we have the idea of the earnest, that God has wrought us for this selfsame thing and has given us the earnest of the Spirit.

H.G. Is that power to anticipate the joys now of what we will realise in full in the future?

J.T. Yes, it seems to me that that is in the mind of the Spirit in acknowledging Himself. God has given us the thought of the Spirit. It is the earnest of something. Mortality is swallowed up by life.

H.G. Mortality is swallowed up in victory in another epistle. Here it is swallowed up by life, which is a much stronger view.

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J.T. Quite so. It means that it has that effect in a normal person.

J.B. Mortality would refer to that which is subject to death, not that which is dead.

J.T. Quite so. It is a word which comes to me as peculiarly comforting to those of us who are advanced in life. There are parts of Scripture that are intended for young people; those of us that are advanced in years can keep this word in mind when we begin to realise that the outer man is perishing, yet our inner is being renewed day by day.

J.B. The redemption of the body is looked forward to in Romans 8 and is akin to what this looks forward and onward to.

J.T. While the scriptures corroborate one another they rarely repeat themselves. This epistle has a distinctive viewpoint. It begins with the idea of a fragile vessel in which a treasure is. "We have this treasure in earthen vessels", (2 Corinthians 4:7), and then the idea of mortality follows, "Always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body", 2 Corinthians 4:10. That is in answer to the body's evidence of dissolution. You clothe yourself with the life of Jesus. We are not to appear in a lifeless apathy, but whilst acknowledging what we are physically, we are to put on this beautiful garb of the life of Jesus in which there never was any decline or anything like it. The Lord did not live to be an old man; He was a young Man when He died. His whole being was life. There was no taint of death at all in Him, no corruption or decay. He was a Man altogether His own kind. There was no other man like that.

H.G. "The life also of Jesus". Is the thought here that that life may be manifested?

J.T. Quite so.

H.G. It is a wonderful thing that although naturally you are going down, spiritually you are ever

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coming up. You are renewed like the eagles in that sense. It shows such wonderful possibilities that you do not need to fall into decline spiritually at all.

J.T. Something like that was in the close of David's reign in 1 Chronicles, that is the side you just mentioned. There is no evidence of weakness, whereas in 1 Kings, he is just a weak man. In 1 Chronicles he stood on his feet and addressed his princes nobly and energetically.

H.G. Full of days is what you get there. The inward man is renewed day by day.

J.T. It would look as if God gave him strength and stimulation in the thought of Solomon entering in as king. He stood up on his feet and made that wonderful speech in 1 Chronicles 28. You like to see that at the end. You would like to have that in mind for yourself. God gives you strength and renews it like the eagle's. The inner man is renewed day by day. "While we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen; for the things that are seen are for a time, but those that are not seen eternal". The process goes on while we are looking at the things that are not seen. If I am looking at the grief and my weakness in life, that does not help me to get renewal.

H.G. Beholding His glory would transform us.

J.T. That is it.

H.G. There is every encouragement to the spiritual in this epistle.

J.T. And then there is resurrection as we speak of it. The change of body is put on such a high plane. The apostle does not simply bring out the power of God as in the first epistle, chapter 15, but brings out, on the one hand, our nakedness, and on the other hand the building we are coming to, "A building from God ... eternal in the heavens" and "our house which is from heaven".

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W.B. Is it personal here? Is the house an individual thought?

J.T. Well, I think so. But it is mentioned in that way. It is one idea. It is for all but each has his own house. The way it comes about, of course, is that the man comes out of the grave by the power of God. It is on a higher plane here, "eternal in the heavens".

J.B. It is a wonderful thing.

H.G. The glory here is a very high level of glory.

J.T. There is no question of resignation or death for him. We can well understand the need of the Spirit as the earnest in the light of the facts at Corinth. How am I going to fill the house from God, eternal in the heavens? How am I going to fill it?

L.E.S. But first mortality is swallowed up in life.

J.T. Yes. A wonderful change. That element of mortality for life. There is an element of corruption in life.

W.B. I have been thinking all through these meetings that that verse, "That, being dead to sins, we may live to righteousness" (1 Peter 2:24) is the thought of righteousness dwelling. We have had the washing in one of our meetings and writing in another. Now we have the eternal character of the house from heaven. I connected it all with that verse in Peter. What strikes you is the house you are to have.

J.T. Yes, and that you are formed for that thing. We have been wrought for that. There is a definite thought in that. Then in the end He gives us the Spirit as the earnest which is very precious. You have some idea in the earnest of the Spirit, of filling the possession. God has wrought you for this. He is down here as the earnest. You get that so that you know how you are to fill your possession. Adam's existence began with the breathing of God into him, but he had no substance at all before that. But we have an existence before we get that body, we are

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told about it now. We are going to come into a wonderful house eternal in the heavens, and God has wrought us for it. It is not to be a matter of light and theory, but the Holy Spirit is a witness, and I can then occupy that.

J.B. Is this personal body to be looked upon as a real tabernacle house?

J.T. The allusion is to the changeableness of our personal condition. Tabernacle means that it can be taken down. God begins very early sometimes to take down the tabernacle. When you begin to lose your teeth from old age, God is just gradually taking it down. But then He has got another tabernacle, "a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens".

H.G. We have not a single qualification naturally for that new house. It all has to be brought to us in a spiritual way. I suppose that the more spiritual a man is the less abrupt the thought of the change.

J.T. "He that has wrought us for this very thing is God". He is working in us according to the full thought of His mind. Then the coming in of the earnest, I think, is to make its entering in somewhat tangible to us, somewhat intelligible to us.

L.E.S. To "desire for departure and being with Christ, for it is very much better" (Philippians 1:23), would depend on that, the earnest of the Spirit.

J.T. Exactly. Even that was better than this personal existence. Think of the house when you get into that. Being with Christ in a disembodied condition is much better than being in our own personal condition. The Holy Spirit gives us very little about the eternal condition, but He does open this up to us.

It is a final touch of His purpose. Then our house from heaven comes in, to bring out that what comes out is really a heavenly body. "A house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens". We are already

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formed in heavenly character by the work of God, but our heavenly bodies are not yet visible.

Rem. What does the apostle mean in Philippians when he says he has a desire to "arrive at the resurrection from among the dead"?

J.T. It is a matter of experience, that he might touch the experience in his soul.

J.B. I suppose he would need to have the earnest of the Spirit to touch that.

J.T. Yes, you can only get that by the Spirit. He says, 'I do not reckon that I have attained'. As a matter of light he could speak of it as risen with Christ. "I pursue, looking towards the goal, for the prize of the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 3:14), which goes beyond resurrection. Resurrection was not his goal, heaven was his goal, and that corresponds with what we have got here, "A building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens". We are to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven. It is from heaven and out of heaven but its place is eternal in the heavens. It does not belong to the earth, but to the heavens.

E.Z. It is a wonderful thing to have definite formation, and to know that spiritual formation is taking place in these bodies of humiliation.

J.T. Yes, it is going on all the time. God is very patient in the way He works. But He works, and works, and works. "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work". It is the workmanship of God, and the work goes on, but the great end in view is to form us for "this very thing".

Rem. I was thinking of the earnest referred to in Ephesians. There is no need of repetition in Scripture, but it brings in "the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession to the praise of his glory", Ephesians 1:13, 14.

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J.T. That is the fullest thought, really; it is the great general thought of God. But here He is dealing with the body, heavenly bodies that we are to have. What a fine thing for all the brethren, what a fine thing for all of us! The old men and old women will be sitting in the streets of Jerusalem by and by, old men and old women with staves; and children will be playing in the streets; of what will these old people be talking? They would be looking back, and would be speaking a good deal of what they saw which the children did not see. They saw the Messiah coming in at the inauguration of the millennium. It would be very interesting to these people. The Lord would keep our interest up and more than interest as we advance, moving ahead into the things that are not seen, these wonderful things that apply to us personally. Am I going to be equal to it? So the Holy Spirit mentions Himself.

L.E.S. Would you say a word about being unclothed and clothed upon?

J.T. Unclothed means dying; "found naked" is somewhat different, and alludes to the possibility of a man being among the Corinthians who was not converted; in that day he would be found naked without any covering before God.

H.G. Like Adam in his sins.

J.T. Exactly. Adam was found that way. We should not be unclothed, we are not looking for dissolution, but for clothing upon, the change to the heavenly body, to be like Christ.

W.B. It says here we desire not to be unclothed but clothed upon. That is a reference to death.

J.T. The ultimate desire of the christian is resurrection.

W.B. The christian does not need to die.

J.T. That is right. The apostle says "to be with Christ", but that is another matter. He presents here death swallowed up of life.

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H.G. We do not know very much about the disembodied state, anyway. It is a mystery as far as we are concerned.

J.T. Yes, we are with Christ, and we are restful in that. We need not dwell much on chapter 6, but there is a good deal that can be said on the fellowship of the Spirit. It is a word for ministers, as to many things in themselves that are paradoxical. There are thirty-seven or thirty-eight things, extraordinary things that mark the apostle. The Holy Spirit allows them to be put in.

H.G. This is the most difficult thing in the whole list to me: "Commending ourselves as God's ministers ... in the Holy Spirit". Would it suggest holiness and spirituality and power?

J.T. Yes. A man is noted as a minister. The Holy Spirit is suggested to me in that man. "Our glad tidings were not with you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit".

J.B. I suppose Stephen would be an example of this.

J.T. He was full of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is mentioning Himself this way in the list of things. In wonderful humility, He is allowing Him self to be listed in these especially. A minister should live so that he has the impression of a divine Person about him and around him and in him. So that the Lord said to His disciples, "Ye are witnesses of these things". Well, if they are witnesses of them, they could speak of them. But He says they would not be in it until "I send the promise of my Father upon you" and "ye be clothed with power from on high". How changed they would be! I see Peter in the first chapter of Acts and he speaks well, and speaks with remarkable intelligence as to what should be done, but he could not say anything about the Holy Spirit. In the next chapter, I see there is something different. Peter is certainly there but there is Someone else

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there. I think that the idea of divine Persons accompanying saints is suggested strikingly when Nebuchadnezzar looked into the fiery furnace and was astonished as he gazed at the three men whom he had ordered to be placed there and saw another One. Is that other One seen in my experience and in my ways? He is like unto the Son of God. I think that the testimony requires that Another is seen besides the minister Someone else is to be seen.

H.G. I was thinking of that scripture, "and we are his witnesses of these things, and the Holy Spirit also", Acts 5:32. His name is coupled there with that service.

J.T. Well, that is pretty much the same thing. The Holy Spirit was to be a distinct witness. We are witnesses, but the Holy Spirit also was witness. But when He bears witness without the twelve, it is a witness of His own selection. In Acts 10, Peter is preaching and the Holy Spirit says, 'I am not going to use you here. I am coming Myself'. And from then on, I think you get the difference between the Spirit Himself and the twelve, so that Paul comes. But what we want to make clear is that there is another Person here in testimony and that He should be seen in my ways. Then Paul wanted to make clear that the Holy Spirit is here. I can apprehend Paul standing up to speak, and you can see how the Holy Spirit came in. It was evident in his service.

J.B. Is there the same connection in Colossians in regard to the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Quite so. It is manifest in the Spirit. But a minister should have it clear before him that there is another Person.

L.E.S. Would what Jehovah says in regard of Caleb be suggestive of this? "He hath another spirit in him", Numbers 14:24.

J.T. Exactly. That was similar to the commendation

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of Joshua by Jehovah Himself, "A man in whom is the Spirit", Numbers 27:18.

H.G. How does a man give evidence that he has the Holy Spirit with him?

J.T. Well, in view of ministry, there are always two thoughts that I keep in mind. The first is that for ministry we go to Galilee to meet the Lord "There shall ye see him", Matthew 28:7. There is only one Person who can help you in each need, and one goes there to get the help. It leads to spiritual exercise before you serve. You make it clear that you cannot serve unless He gives you something. He does give you something but perhaps He only gives you an outline. The Lord says in Luke's gospel, "Ye are witnesses of these things. And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but do ye remain in the city till ye be clothed with power from on high", Luke 24:48,49. Now they were not supposed to do anything; they just had to stay there. The application of that would be that when a man stands up with his message, the Holy Spirit comes in and gives it form and character. Then the brethren say, 'There is help there'. It is not only what he is saying, but there is something else there besides. That is where the Holy Spirit comes in. These are very practical things in ministry.

The expression "of God" seems to be characteristic of these letters; we have, for example, "The assembly of God". The use of the word "communion" here brings our mind back to the use of it in chapter 1:9, where we are called into the fellowship of God's Son, and then in chapter 10, we have the communion of the blood of Christ. Here we have the communion of the Holy Spirit. That is to say, it is "of" in these two epistles. In John it is "with". The first is that it is the dignity of fellowship over against freemasonry, etc. You could not get anything greater than the fellowship of God's Son in regard of dignity.

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'Of Him', not 'with Him', gives character to it. We have the fellowship of His death and now the fellowship of the Spirit. "Fellowship with" is in John's epistle; the apostle had fellowship with the Father and the Son in the testimony. The word denotes partnership. So that in these letters it is not that we are in fellowship with the Son or with the Spirit but it is the character of the thing. It is the fellowship of God's Son, the fellowship of His death, and the fellowship of the Spirit.

J.B. He brings in the Godhead here, does he not? The love of God, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the communion of the Holy Spirit. I was thinking of the wonderfully high level of it. What a wonderful thing it is to be characterised by the grace of the Lord Jesus, the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit! What could be greater?

J.T. I thought we might, in closing, amplify a little the thought of fellowship as indicated in Nehemiah, because the fellowship of the Spirit means the part He has and that I enter into it. Some come into fellowship, as we say, but it is not just that. In Nehemiah's day they were dedicating the wall. Some may look for a little truth from the brethren that they could not get elsewhere, but they never dedicate the fellowship. I refer to the wall; it is symbolical to me of fellowship. It is that by which evil is excluded and the good is preserved. When people begin slipping away it is noticeable even in their language; their words prove it. It is never 'we' but 'they'. We begin to see that it means that they are not in fellowship or that they are leaving it; they find that they have never come into the dedication of the thing. It is worth while dedicating, committing ourselves willingly.

Rem. You have to contribute before you can receive the benefit of it.

J.T. Quite so. Well, if one comes in and recognises

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the Spirit, in what He is doing, he drinks into Him, and he begins to see that there. The Spirit is here all the time.

H.G. The great thing to recognise first is the brotherhood, there is nothing official. You are brethren first. Some have been received back as servants.

J.T. Quite. I have noticed that more in Great Britain than here. Here too also, however. We have the kinds of gates mentioned here. One of them is the dung gate; another is called the prison gate.

There are a number of gates mentioned. As I come into fellowship, I may have to use some of these gates.

There is no gate called the Levite's gate. One does not come back as a Levite, that is to say, as a minister. He comes in through the dung gate, that is he becomes very small. Then there are these two choirs. In verse 31 it says, "And I brought up the princes of Judah upon the wall, and appointed two great choirs and processions, on the right hand upon the wall towards the dung gate". That is a reminder. In verse 38 it says, "the second choir went in the opposite direction upon the wall". Now Nehemiah says he was after them, but the first company or choir is said to have had Ezra the scribe before. This is for the dedication of the wall, and one possibly wonders how much part we have in this. Earlier we get the idea of the building of the wall in chapter 3; now we come on to the time of dedication. Have we any part in these two companies, one led by Ezra the scribe and the other followed by Nehemiah?

Ques. Why do you think Nehemiah did not lead the second company?

J.T. He was a good example for us. How can one lead if one cannot follow?

H.G. "All that Jesus began both to do and teach". That is a good example to follow.

J.T. Then a man like Nehemiah is an example of

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one going out and one coming in. He is ready to do things. He was superintending all and doing it all out of sight. He was not pushing himself forward but the dedication was going on; in truth it makes full room for the Spirit.

L.E.S. What is the idea of the dedication?

J.T. Having completed and proved the thing, they were committing themselves happily to it. Many are disappointed.

H.G. The universal fellowship?

J.T. Exactly. One goes that way and one this way and they meet in the house of God. It is the universal thought, a divine meeting place in the house of God. This is a word for our young people; we were speaking about the old people, but this is the word for the young people. The dedication means great happiness. I am personally satisfied with the wall. It is a fine undertaking and it has proved itself to be what it was intended to be; I am made to drink into the Spirit and I am merging around with my brethren dedicating the wall.

W.B. It is termed a broad wall in verse 38.

J.T. That is a suggestion. It was not the broad way. It is the wall from which you can have a good view.

Rem. A broad wall would be a good strong wall.

J.T. Yes, there could be a lot of brethren on that wall. They would not have to walk in single file.

H.G. Voices are blended together in harmony.

J.T. Yes. In Ephesians we have, "Be filled with the Spirit, speaking to yourselves ... singing and chanting with your heart to the Lord". The saints by the Spirit come into the rest of heaven. You get that in heaven. We learn to sing in part now. You feel that these dear brethren are trained spiritually. Take a man like Ezra, whose genealogy is traced as a true priest. A man like that sets his heart to know the Lord. How befitting it was for the Holy Spirit

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to be in a man like that! He is not seeking the place, but the Holy Spirit was putting him forward, and in chapter 8 we see him as a spiritual man in the recovery who acquires the confidence of his brethren.

J.B. It is fitting that a priest should lead in a place of that sort. Nehemiah was more of a prophet.

J.T. Yes, of course, he was the governor. In chapter 12 we have a list of names up to verse 36, and then it says, "with the musical instruments of David the man of God; and Ezra the scribe before them". What a high level they reached here! I believe it is in the recognition of the Spirit. You reach a high level because David is really the highest level reached in the history of Israel, "the musical instruments of David the man of God"; it would be hard to find a finer expression than that. Then Ezra the scribe goes before and leads them. We are not in the fellowship in an irksome sort of way; we are happy in it in the highest sort and order of music; "the musical instruments of David the man of God".

L.E.S. It is good for the young people to recognise the dignity of the place. The women and the children enter into it too.

J.T. "And the singers sang loud; and Jizrahiah was their overseer". The overseer is another thought. What a fine testimony there was! "The joy of Jerusalem was heard even afar off".

Rem. No captivity there. The harp was not on the willows.

J.T. You could sing there. The highest kind of musical instruments. You had such a leader as an overseer. One who could see that things were right. The joy was unmarred by anything incongruous.

L.E.S. "Walk about Zion and go round about her; count the towers thereof".

J.T. You do so in spite of all that is suggested in the gates, in the dung gate, the prison gate and the rest; you might say, too, that the sight of the prison

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gate is rather casting a gloom over the scene, but I doubt if you could have these two choirs without it. If you have not a prison you have a lot of unharmonious elements. They would hinder the choirs.

Rem. The joy of Jerusalem was heard afar off.

J.T. It ought to appeal to the young people. This dignity that is seen is especially for young people. There is nothing for the flesh, nothing to mar the holy joys of the Spirit in the dedication of the fellowship, and then in meeting in the house of God, the two choirs meeting together in the house of God. How much does God know of that?

H.G. Standing still in the prison gate would be for solemn contemplation. It would just check us up in a wholesome way.

J.T. Yes, indeed.

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SMALLNESS

Deuteronomy 7:7; Amos 7:1 - 9

You will observe that there is the thought of smallness in these scriptures. In the first incident God is calling attention to it, and in the second, His servant Amos is calling God's attention to the smallness of Jacob. My remarks will centre around these scriptures, which call forth much in the way of a general principle in relation to God's ways and dealings with us: how He dissipates all natural thoughts at the roots. We are told to be natural, to think naturally, speak naturally, but God ever sets Himself against the natural in His sphere of things. Indeed He says the natural man understands not the things of the Spirit they are foolishness to him. He may seek to accommodate himself to them, but finally they are foolishness to him. And unless he is subject to God, he refutes them entirely.

God knows that, and from the outset He would dissipate what is natural: and one of the natural tendencies is the desire for bigness in the things of God. It is perfectly normal in the world, this desire for bigness. It shone out at Shinar as we remember, when they set about to build a city and a tower, the top of which would reach to heaven.

That was natural, and we might say normal in this world out of which God had been eliminated. They did not like to retain Him in their knowledge: they eliminated God from their calculations. So the outcome was that they would have something big. It comes right down to us, it is seen everywhere. Huge buildings, hospitals, cities, ships. Bigness is a feature, and will be while the world lasts as it is. "Is not this great Babylon, that I have built?" says Nebuchadnezzar.

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God at the beginning would dissipate all that from the hearts of His people. He called Abraham out of that, and as called out, He refers back to him, to Isaac and Jacob in Psalm 105. They were few and of little account, and they went from one kingdom to another people. But God says in this verse (Deuteronomy 7:7) referring to them, "Not because ye were more in number than all the peoples, hath Jehovah been attached to you and chosen you, for ye are the fewest of all the peoples".

From these remarks, someone might think that smallness is a virtue. But it may not be a virtue; it may be the result of laziness; want of industry maybe, and that is not a virtue. But smallness on account of quality, because of refusing to take on the spirit of the world; smallness on account of non-absorption with the world is a virtue.

One said, "it is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a contentious woman, and a house in common", Proverbs 21:9. It means that those assuming to be the church, and taking the ground in relation to Christ, are marked by contentions and quarrellings. There is not a sect in Christendom that is not thus marked. There can be no dwelling with that spirit of contention. Even the church is subjected to Christ; not only subject, but subjected according to the mind of God. And the Holy Spirit works in her so that she is subjected. The mind of God for her is that she is placed in subjection to Christ; and the work of the Holy Spirit is to bring about subjection accordingly. So where a contentious spirit is, there is no dwelling. "It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a contentious woman". But, "Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them". That is the kind of smallness to which virtue is attached and which heaven honours.

And that is what marked the beginning of Israel,

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they did not link up with the world. The call to Abram was "Go out of thy land". Why should that be first? Why not his family first? But it is "thy land, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house", intimating that national feeling is one of the strongest that appeals to nature. He got out from Haran; he was slow to leave his father, but after his father died, he removed and came out. Abram is definitely out: into the land of Canaan he came, and Psalm 105 contemplates him in that position. "When they were a few men in number, of small account". Not that they were of no account to God; they were, but they were of small account in this world.

They went from one kingdom to another; they had not a foothold in those days. It was a question of purpose for them: they went from one kingdom to another, but they came under God's protection. And the psalm says He "reproved kings for their sakes". How precious! We may be sure that all the happenings today are in relation to those who love God. They are the apple of His eye, and all the happenings in the world bear relation to them. Nothing happens without God and nothing will be detrimental to them, for God has to say to the rulers of this world for the sake of those who love Him. So we want to be amongst those who love God.

He "reproved kings for their sakes, saying, Touch not mine anointed ones, and do my prophets no harm". That is the protection they came under; it was when they were few and of small account. God reminds us that they were everything to Him, My prophets, My anointed. That is to say, where the Holy Spirit is owned; the anointing means the Spirit.

The Philistines were big men in the land in those days; they typify big people mentally. But "touch not mine anointed"; that is, the Spirit is the means

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of intelligence. He teaches you all things. It is the dignity of maturity, a certain character of intelligence which is beyond the natural mind. It may be foolishness to the natural man, and beyond him.

"For who of men hath known the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? thus also the things of God knows no one except the Spirit of God". So the anointing refers to us who recognise the Spirit. "Mine anointed" and "my prophets", it is very beautiful; and with the anointing is the prophetic word. The anointing is the dignity attached to us. The simplest believer is more intelligent than the most learned man. He has intelligence as regards God, and that is the only thing that counts. Material things do not count in eternity; it is only what continues that is of any value.

"Let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me", Jeremiah 9:24. And if I know God I will speak about Him and not merely worship the creature, but rather the Creator. There are men in scientific circles spending their lives finding out things about the creature, and disregarding the Creator. In worshipping and serving the Creator, it is a question of knowing God and His knowing us. "If any one love God, he is known of him", 1 Corinthians 8:3.

And therefore He loved Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He was known of them; and that is because of the anointing. "Touch not mine anointed", they were dignified by the anointing, and then there was the prophetic word. Being anointed you speak of God; men eliminate God, but His prophets would bring Him in. The world may do what it wishes, but those who love God are bound to speak of Him; He is the theme of their conversation. "My prophets", not Baal's prophets. There were four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and but one prophet of Jehovah. And he stood out and they all went down before him; he was God's prophet.

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So in this verse you see how that is enlarged. "Not because ye were more in number than all the peoples, hath Jehovah been attached to you and chosen you, for ye are the fewest of all the peoples; but because Jehovah loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath Jehovah brought you out with a powerful hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt".

That is where every one in this world is; he is a bondman. He that serves sin is a bondman. God has set His love upon us and called us out of it. What an honour to be called out of it, not because we are many, but because of the fewness! He has chosen us according to His eternal purpose, applying it to ourselves. He set His love upon us and delivered us from the house of bondage.

Now in Amos this is taken up when Israel had been enlarged and again become small under the government of God. It is one thing to be small in our beginnings, as when Abram was called out, but it is another thing to be small under the government of God. Why are we so small? Why are there not more converts? That is a question for the heart, and Amos was observant as to it. We should not sit down and fold our hands, assuming that it is so and cannot be otherwise. It can be otherwise. That is what this chapter brings out, and Amos understood in effect.

It is the Lord Jehovah you observe, in verses 1, 2, 4, 5 and 6, and in verse 7 it is just the Lord. Then in verse 8 the original word is not the same as in verse 7. It is Jehovah in verse 8 and in verse 7 it is Master. Now I mention that not to make a point of it, but it is a question of the covenant. Those who love God will always be touched by the thought of His covenant, because it expresses His love and special interest in His own. And He calls the

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prophet's attention to what is going to happen; some governmental action that is going to be disastrous for the people of God. We have no such indication from God, although He is ever ready to convey to us pending happenings, perhaps not in this exact way, but the Holy Spirit has a way of impressing us, so that the people of God are never in the dark. They always know; if they cannot give an account, yet they are assured in themselves, God assures us in ourselves.

So we find that He shows Amos the pending calamity. It says, "Thus did the Lord Jehovah chew unto me; and behold, he formed locusts in the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth, and behold, it was the latter growth after the king's mowings". Now this had not happened yet, and it never did happen, thank God. It was a vision of pending happening which God repented of.

Some of us may wonder why the word should be used that God should change His mind. It is compatible with His divine nature. God is perfectly righteous to send calamity, but He is righteous to cancel it. Why should not God do that? Love will do that. God is not governed by the law of the Medes and Persians; God is God. And God is love, and He is perfectly right in ordering judgments, but He may also be perfectly right in cancelling them.

And so He reveals to Amos the pending calamity. He formed the grasshoppers Himself. We most of us know the disastrous effect of a plague of locusts. They eat up everything. So God can use the most insignificant creatures to carry out the most serious judgments. That is what God can do. Scientific men can tell us a good deal about the locusts, but God can use these insignificant creatures to carry out His judgment. It is to call attention to the immensity of His instrumentalities.

He formed them and they are to eat up the grass,

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after the king's mowings -- the Lord's rights over His people. You might have some result in this town, but that does not follow that it would continue. But what comes in after the king's mowings, the tender grass coming up, the latter growth; these locusts are going to eat it up. And Amos says, "O Lord Jehovah ... . How shall Jacob arise? for he is small". How pleasing that was to God! It was the result He sought. It was the king's mowings in Amos; He was getting His joy from the heart of His servant, in one who was concerned. "How shall Jacob arise? for he is small". And God repented.

Dear brethren, one would urge that we should get near to the Lord and be sure to solicit His intervention. He is ready to hear us. It is the first-fruit of what He is doing. He showed the prophet this and formed the locusts in the vision, and Amos interposed and threw himself between the disaster and the people. Jesus entered into Gethsemane and into death and the grave to stand between the judgment and His people. And the Spirit of Christ is seen in Amos when he says, "How shall Jacob arise? for he is small". And the Lord said, "It shall not be". So Amos got the gain of it and carried his ministry to the people. Any manifestation of God is not for the servant alone; it gives character to his service to the people of God. Amos would tell them about this, how that they were saved from this calamity. And so today, those who are in the secret of God will turn to Him about the conditions which prevail and He will hear and do. "It shall not be". And it was not.

"And behold, the Lord Jehovah called to contend by fire; and it devoured the great deep". That is a remarkable way of expressing the power of fire; of its eating up the inheritance. It was a greater disaster than the other. And the prophet says, "O Lord Jehovah ... . How shall Jacob arise? for he is small". It is the acceptance of the smallness under the government

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of God because of the failure of Israel. And God accepts the solicitation of His servant, and says, "This also shall not be". For God loves His people. In the days of Abraham God came down from fifty to ten: "I will not destroy it for the ten's sake". Abraham did not go further than that, and the city was destroyed. It shows the importance of prayer by every one of us in view of conditions; God will answer it: "This also shall not be", and it was not. So these two great disasters did not happen at all. It is an important principle, because God has placed His people in the position of priests unto Him, and He hears and acts for them. Revelation brings that out.

Then the next vision is in the seventh verse "Thus did he shew unto me". It is not the Lord God here, "and behold, the Lord stood upon a wall made by a plumb-line, with a plumb-line in his hand. And Jehovah said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumb-line. And the Lord said, Behold, I will set a plumb-line in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more. And the high places of Isaac shall be desolated, and the sanctuaries of Israel shall be laid waste; and I will arise against the house of Jeroboam with the sword".

This is the third vision: there is no repentance this time; there is no prayer on the part of Amos. It is a very solemn vision this. The introduction of the high places of Isaac, who is a type of Christ risen, would mean that there are those in the position of priests, who are most exalted, and yet God says, 'I am not going to pass by them any more', meaning that He is going to execute judgment upon them. It is very solemn and it might be applied to the general state of the professing church, Babylon; God has been prolonging this day of grace, but He solemnly calls a halt.

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The Lord is seen now standing upon a wall which is made by a plumb-line; that means a refutation of the general principles of christendom with its lawlessness and loose thoughts and contentions that we were speaking of. They are building as they like, without a plumb-line, without a spirit level. Babylon heaps her sins one upon the other. That is building without a plumb-line; that is christendom. Not living stones but sins, heaping them one on the other.

What must that be to heaven? The high places of Isaac, the greatest pretension of things. God is standing upon a wall built by a plumb-line. It can stand His weight, the "exceeding ... weight of glory". He is supported by the wall. Is our fellowship great enough for that? The fellowship of God's Son; that is what this means. It shuts out evil and shuts in good. Standing on the altar means grace, but standing on the wall built by a plumb-line is solidity. God stands on that built by a plumb-line. 'You have been falsifying all My thoughts, forcing false doctrines into My house. My building is on the principle of the plumb-line, and I will not pass by you any more'. It is very solemn; it is pending now.

So any building of God's must be according to the plumb-line. He has got His principles; we must not force our principles on God. The temple was built entirely according to the pattern given to David. While God brooks man's devices, He bears with them, but He refuses them. Anything not according to the plumb-line will come under the judgment of God. It is very solemn. I am not speaking so much of that as of the importance of prayer, like Amos getting to God as impending dangers and disasters are discerned, and seeing that if they come upon them, "How shall Jacob arise? for he is small". But the prayer of Amos pleases God and He says, "It shall not be". How sweet it is that we can continue, knowing that

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our labour is not in vain in the Lord! The quality is much more important.

He drinks of the brook by the way; He loves to come in, however few there may be. He does not wish that it should dry up. While the Holy Spirit is down here the Lord will continue. Amos discerned the mind of God and prayed according to it. And our prayers will be heard. He is ready to be moved. "This also shall not be, said the Lord Jehovah". May God bless the word.

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THE HOUSE OF GOD AND HIS DEALINGS WITH HIS PEOPLE

1 Chronicles 21:7 - 19, 26 - 30; 1 Chronicles 22:1, 6 - 15

I have the house of God in mind in reading these scriptures, especially to show how it is in His mind in all the discipline and judicial dealings with His people. The outcome of every discipline, whether great or small, has the house in view. So that definite gain accrues to us, and definite gain accrues to God as the outcome of every discipline, whether great or small. There is discipline which may be classified as small, and which we are apt to overlook because of its smallness, but it fits in with the divine scheme, and is not to be overlooked, but is to be regarded in the light of the general education through which God passes His people. He has a very great school and He has had many pupils in it; beginning with Adam it comes down in history to when the last saint is perfected. For God's school brings out perfect scholars. To"present every man perfect in Christ"; God is never satisfied with anything short of perfection.

We find that in the first chapter of Genesis God worked by the day. It is a wonderful thought that the Creator Himself should come into each day of the week and do the day's work for six days. But every day's work was perfect in itself; and that would be expanded to every subject of His education. His intent is to turn out perfect scholars in view of the world He has in mind, and which has already taken form, so that each may fill his place in it, acceptably to God, and in relation to Christ, in whom every perfection is seen.

So in both Colossians and Ephesians we have the idea of perfection. "Until we all arrive" means that we have part in the movement; "until we all arrive

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at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ; in order that we may be no longer babes"; that is the end that is in view (Ephesians 4:13, 14).

In this school God has been pleased to bring into prominence certain persons as examples. Amongst these are David; he stands out very definitely as one whom God sets before us as a model product of His educational dealings. Then we have such a man as Jacob, another outstanding example, also Moses. Then in the New Testament there are Peter and Paul. These are the most outstanding in the New Testament; but each is to be considered by us as a special example in the school of God. So that we may not falter when under discipline but rather be encouraged, for it is not hatred in God, but love that brings it about. So we are taught in this regard in the school of Tyrannus.

You might say, 'I should not like to be in that school; that of a man whose name means tyrant'. Children do not care for tyrants as teachers; but the principle of the tyrant is most essential to the school. That is to say, a school primarily implies that one will must rule, and not that of every child in it. One will must rule us because it is a question of love. And we see in the result that all things work together for good to those who love God, and those who are called according to His purpose. We learn that and say it with great zest at the end, and look back on the path as we get older and say, 'I would not have been without it. It was very hard at the time, but it had its own part in my education, and I would not have been without it'.

David stands out as one of the great models in the school of God, and at this particular period of his history we have one of his two great sins. This reminds us that however great a sin or fault of the

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christian is, God can turn it into good and for the greatest blessing, leading us to moral heights which we have not hitherto attained. So the setting of the thing, sorrowful as it might be, was of God. "I ... create evil", He says. I cannot conceive of God doing that save as having good as an end.

In 2 Samuel we are told that God moved David to number the people, but in this chapter Satan moved him. It was the malice of the devil; but from the wider viewpoint God controlled the malice of the devil and allowed him to influence David. We might think that God would have shielded him, but He did not; He allowed the devil to suggest to David that he should number the people, as though he were one of the monarchs of the world, like Caesar Augustus. We are told that the object of a monarch making a census is to find out how many subjects he has. God does not like that: He numbers His people, but as soon as we begin to number those who are in fellowship and seek to have a large meeting, God does not like that. Not that He would disparage the numbers, but the motive to have numbers and priding ourselves religiously in a large congregation, God does not like.

David numbered the people, and they were a goodly number, because populations of kingdoms were not as they are now. We would be surprised if we compared the population of those days with that of the present time, how few they were. So David's kingdom was relatively large according to the census taken here, and it says God was not pleased. It is a very solemn thing to have a sense that something has happened in my life that has displeased God. He is slow to anger and has much patience with us, but certain things happen that do displease Him. Especially is He displeased by pride, which was behind this proposal of David's.

I wonder if we have not all had the sense of God's displeasure, and then on the other hand the sense of

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His pleasure. How great is the difference! The difference, for instance, in the life of Jesus, when God opened the heavens and spoke to Him and said, "Thou art my beloved Son". He spoke to Him directly according to some of the gospels, and of Him in others, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight". What pleasure it must have given the heart of Jesus! He knew it; there never was a shadow between the Father and the Son. Infinite delight was always in the heart of the Father as He looked upon His Son here in manhood. He told Him He had delight in Him. "Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight". And synchronising with that, the Holy Spirit came down in bodily form as a dove, which would mean that the totality of the Spirit was there, all that God is, resting on that blessed Man. He abode on Him, it is said. Think of that! And it is to be thought of. We should tell of these facts in the gospel. Then when God expresses His displeasure in that same Person, we do not take it in much; the immensity of the contrast! On the one hand His infinite pleasure and on the other His infinite displeasure. The reconciliation of these two facts is, that in the one instance it is the Lord personally, and in the other, the Lord is representing us in all our hideous guilt. He was there as representative of us, and that is what brought forth God's displeasure. The Lord had to say to God, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" There is food for the soul in considering the contrast.

And so, in the history of David, God had been greatly pleased with him. He is pleased with every one of us as we turn to Him in humble repentance. "There is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth". There is joy in the heart of God and the angels see it. As I have often thought, every step of the prodigal back to his father's

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house gave joy to the heart of the father -- every step!

So with David; God was greatly pleased with him. He was very displeased with Saul, He rejected him. Samuel would have retained Saul, and mourned for him, and Jehovah says, "How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him?" Why should I be out of accord with God? But then Samuel is sent to the house of Jesse the Bethlehemite, for Jehovah says, "I have provided me a king among his sons". So Samuel went from Bethlehem and the sons of Jesse are caused to pass before him, from the eldest to the youngest. Eliab comes first and Samuel says, "Surely Jehovah's anointed is before him". But was he before Him? Samuel had already been out of accord in mourning for Saul, and now he is out of accord in thinking that Eliab was the anointed one. So the most spiritual of us may be mistaken. Which shows the necessity of being with God; we must not be out of accord with the mind of God. And that enters into church administration as to persons we receive or refuse, whether the reception or refusal be according to God.

So the sons of Jesse passed before Samuel, and God said, 'Do not look at the outward appearance'. Think of God having to adjust that great servant in his old age. We need adjustment all the time; God looks at the heart. He says, 'He is not the anointed one; you are making a mistake'. And Samuel is corrected; it is beautiful to see the old brother corrected.

The next comes before him: the Lord has not chosen him, and so the seven pass before him, and none of them are chosen. Samuel would think, 'Have I come to Bethlehem for nothing?' He says to Jesse, "Are these all the young men?" And Jesse answered, "There is yet the youngest remaining". David is Christ in type. Samuel has learned his

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lesson, and says, "We will not sit at table till he come hither". They had to wait, they are learning.

So David comes in, a young shepherd, just looking after the sheep, and Jehovah says, "Arise, anoint him; for this is he". Do you ever see that in a meeting? God is delighted with the movements of that young man; he is a type of Christ, and God is pleased with him. The Spirit of God depicts the young man: "ruddy, and besides of a lovely countenance and beautiful appearance". And Samuel anoints him then.

But I am speaking of David in the school of God. God was pleased with him and gave him His Spirit, anointed him. The Spirit came upon him then. But now we come to a point when God is displeased with the same person. It is a very solemn thing. At one time I am sensible of being pleasing to God and another time I am sensible of being displeasing; that God is displeased with me, and I cannot leave it at that. If you go into the world, the displeasure of God goes with you and follows you. He does not like your ways and He will make you feel it.

The thing that David did displeased the Lord, we are told here. It was so manifestly wrong that even Joab questioned what David did, yet that dear man of God, David, did it. The most spiritual are capable of displeasing God; but He will not let us off, He loves us too well.

David had a man through whom God could speak to him. Some of us close the door so that God cannot speak to us; we shut the door fast in His face. But David had a seer; Gad is called his seer. At this time he is a prophet of God, but I believe that in a person like David, however far away he might get from God, there is something through which God can address him. He had a seer: He had a man there in Gad, who is called David's seer. Why should he be

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called that just now? He is a man through whom God can speak to David.

Every one who is going on with God has a seer. There is that element through which God can address him. So God takes up this element, Gad, and sends him to David, saying, "I offer thee three things; choose one of them ... . Choose thee, either three years of famine, or three months to be destroyed before thine adversaries ... or three days the sword of Jehovah and the pestilence in the land". David had had to do with famine before, he had had three years of it, so he knew well what that meant.

There is no famine today, there is abundance of food and everything that man needs. God is good to men; He is doing His part. Whatever it is that men need, it is in abundance. Some of the food is two or three years old: God has provided that. So we do not rightly call the present stress a famine in the ordinary sense of the word. It is maladministration on the part of men. The bounty of God is not available because of maladministration. But that is by the way. David knew what three years of famine meant; we get that in 2 Samuel 21. So David is told to choose. How beautiful that God put it into David's hands to decide. What a God we have! 'What will you choose? It is imperative; there must be the discipline because you are in my school, and I love you too well to let you off. You must go through it. Then I will show how you have gained enormously from it'.

It is a great thing to acquire a true knowledge of God, especially the God of Romans, the God of grace; how He takes us up in grace. You fail and displease Him, and you think, 'O, God will never take me on again'. But you were worse when He took you on at the first. You were full of leprosy. He will take you on again, such is God. The young ones should read Romans prayerfully; it is the gospel of God concerning

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His Son. It is God telling you about Jesus, and how He can make you like Jesus, and set you up consistently in holiness, giving you His Holy Spirit.

David says, "Let me fall ... into the hand of Jehovah, for his mercies are very great". "And Jehovah sent a pestilence upon Israel; and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men". And then the angel goes to Jerusalem, but the heart of God relents towards that city which was so precious in His sight. God is capable of cutting things short, so Jerusalem is not destroyed. And then the beautiful thing is, God says to the angel, 'Stay your hand'. And the angel is seen at the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite.

We are in the midst of discipline of the severest kind, it is true, but there is the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite. It is to be immortalised; it is the site of the temple. Spiritually it refers to the position of the house, never to be forgotten. In the midst of the general devastation, God is calmly marking the spot. David is to be brought on to new ground. And so with every one of us in discipline He will bring us on to ground which is immutable; He has got the house in view.

And so the angel speaks to Gad, not to David. He commanded Gad to say to David that he should go up and rear an altar to Jehovah in the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite. As being under the discipline of God, we see that sacrifice is the order of the day. It began with the sacrifice of Jesus; there could be no foundation in the house without that sacrifice. Jesus has offered Himself without spot to God. That is the foundation. So David comes and offers sacrifices there.

And God says to the angel, 'Put your sword into its sheath'. The time of judgment is over. What a relief! The sword is sheathed, and never unsheathed in the house of God. Someone may ask, 'Does not

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the house of God come under judgment?' No, the judgment begins at the house of God, it does not come under judgment. So the sword is sheathed there, and David offered sacrifices. What a change as one is brought into the consciousness of liberty with God, on new ground!

In the beginning of chapter 22 David says, "This is the house of Jehovah Elohim". Not 'That is the house'. What do you say about the brethren? Those brethren, who are they? Why do you not say these brethren? These brethren, I am amongst them and belong to them. The gospels develop this great truth of brethren. It is not that but this: this is where I am; this is the house. How beautiful! This is the house of Jehovah; it is where He is going to live. Then David begins to provide abundantly. What a changed brother he is! He is now thinking of the house. He prepared iron in abundance for the nails, one of the first things mentioned. We get the stones and the timber, and then the nails. That is to say, things are to be held immutably in the resurrection of Christ. Not taches but nails, powerful things to hold the parts together.

But what I want to come to is Solomon. Since the house is located I am in it and I say, 'This is the house; these are the brethren'. And the next thing is that I am not to be amongst them in old age, but in youthfulness. Old in years, but young in spirit. So David immediately sends for Solomon; he is a young man. As soon as I am in the house, what I find is that it is not a military place; it is a place of lovely preciousness and liberty of sons. There is no place in the universe like it. It is adorned by the Son. "Solomon my son is young and tender". Tender youth in sonship: a promised son, not an ordinary son. Solomon is one of the extraordinary persons of Scripture. When he was born Jehovah loved him; he is a type of Christ. There is loveliness

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in the personnel of the house, all young and youthful, and all with intelligence and in the liberty of sons. David tells Solomon what God says about him. Every young christian should listen to the ministry of the Spirit; think of God saying something about you! As it were, before you were born God spoke about you; He had you in His mind. So He had Solomon in His mind, and David says to Solomon, 'God spoke to me about you'. It is the spirit of retirement in the military man, to make room for the youthful son. It is very attractive. And the Spirit of God is maintaining that youthful freshness depicted in Solomon.

Then David tells him about the wealth he has acquired, a hundred thousand talents of gold, etc. We might calculate what that would be worth today, but the idea is to show the immensity of wealth that David had provided. Would it be enough? No, it would not be enough, for Solomon is to contribute. "Thou shalt add to it". David says, and Solomon did add to it. What a wealthy place it was! It all brings before us the immense wealth of the house of God, and the blessedness of it, and the society in it depicted in Solomon, that beautiful young man, the child of promise.

He adds to what his father provided. If he did not, then we should not have the magnificence we read of in 1 Kings and 2 Chronicles. It is addition, and that is always going on; and the word to every young christian is, 'You will add to that'. You say, 'Add to a hundred thousand talents of gold?' Never mind, you will add to that. I am quoting the word here in chapter 22: 14, "And thou shalt add to it". Do not forget that.

To the young people coming in amongst us I would urge you not to say of the brethren, 'They are so-and-so, and they do this and that', but'we do this and we do that'. And if I begin to speak thus, then I must

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do my little quota, I am told to. "Thou shalt add to it".

That is all I had in mind, to show how the great sin of the man of God is turned into gain, and brings to light the house as the great end in view. "I rejoiced when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of Jehovah". No wonder he said that, because of the blessedness of it; where you find Solomon and the immensity of wealth provided, and where you are privileged to open your treasures and furnish an addition to what is there. It is a great lesson; may God bless it to us!

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THOSE WHOM THE LORD HAS

1 Chronicles 11:10; Matthew 26:36 - 45; Luke 22:28 - 30; John 21:15 - 22

You will observe that in Chronicles the Spirit speaks of the chief of those whom David had, of the mighty men whom he had. The narrator of Chronicles mentions these mighty men at the beginning of David's reign, stressing that he had them. We also find their names in 2 Samuel but there it is given at the end of his reign. So that we are reminded that the Lord had and will have certain ones. There were mightier at the beginning and there will be mighties at the end. I need not suggest the importance of being amongst them. For God, as we are told, when He counts (and His people are not uncountable -- it is a feature of excellence that they are countable) writes up according to the birth place of each, so identifying each with his local setting.

I wish to stress what David had, having in mind that they were the nearest to him, the most trustworthy, so that he can commit charges and responsibilities to them. They are the nearest, as I have said. We read that "these are the chief of the mighty men whom David had, who chewed themselves valiant with him in his kingdom, with all Israel, to make him king, according to the word of Jehovah concerning Israel". The setting is, therefore, very clear. They were with him. I wish to indicate from this how sympathies are to show themselves for the Lord.

You will all remember the touching psalm in which it is said of the Lord that He looked for comforters (Psalm 69). He looked for sympathy and found none, and He looked for comforters and there were none. The reality of the Lord's humanity is asserted strikingly in that psalm in that He felt things. He has

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never lost that humanity, beloved brethren. He is as really a Man now as He was in Gethsemane. He feels sympathy now as then. There can be no change in the humanity of our Lord in that sense. There is indeed, in another sense, for He took a condition provisionally in order to accomplish the will of God in atonement. That condition of flesh and blood He laid down, never to take it up again. In that condition He suffered. He arose in another condition, but as really human as the first; it is an abiding condition, a condition disclosed in the terms "flesh and bones". So that He remains a Man, and in that condition He is susceptible to sympathy as much as He was when in the condition of flesh and blood; He looks for it and, as I hope to show, finds it too. The old dispensation, the law, perfected nothing. So that we have entered on an era of perfection, and that applies generally, as I have said. Therefore it includes sympathy.

And so in Luke 15 the Lord opens up in the most touching way the conditions that should prevail after He arose. For the chapter depicts the gospel and its results, not as Christ preached it when here, but as it is announced now. For what you will observe is that in the three cases mentioned, the lost sheep found, the lost piece of silver found, and the son found, there is sympathy with the finders and they look for it. The shepherd comes home rejoicing with the sheep. That is Christ as He is now. The woman who sweeps the house is the Spirit as He is now, not as He was in the Old Testament. And the father of the prodigal is God as He is now. And in each case, the shepherd, that is the Son, and the woman, that is the Spirit, and the father, that is God, all seek sympathy. But not sympathy in sorrow, beloved, but sympathy in joy. It is a rejoicing time; and God never relinquishes that state of things. And that chapter is to bring us all into it. God is not taxing

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us in that way. So that Luke 15 need not go a. begging. The appeal is to the friends; the shepherd calls his friends. You might have expected that he would have called them in in the sorrow. But it is after he finds it he calls for rejoicing. He would bring us into this. So that in His glorious condition now He is susceptible to our sympathy with Him in His joys.

The chapter is most exhilarating. I would commend it to you. It is the Lord's answer to the cavil of His enemies. He answers in this powerful way.

And He calls upon us as His friends. If there is anyone here who is not a friend of Jesus he is worthless morally. So the woman finds, for there is no idea of not finding. It is a dispensation of perfection; ends are reached. As we have been saying, "the end eternal life" -- it is reached. There is no such idea as its not being reached. So that the sheep is found, the money is found, and the prodigal is found. God is not taxing us; He is calling us into it as though we would share His joys, for we are to sympathise in joy as in sorrow.

Well now, I wanted to show you, dear brethren, from the gospels that the position in Chronicles and Samuel is seen antitypically in the disciples. It did not seem to be much outwardly. But they were the only ones that the Lord could reasonably expect sympathy from, and He did expect it from them. He had just had them around Him at the institution of His supper, and they had sung a hymn together. You will observe that it does not say He sang, but they sang. He had them with Him on mutual lines and in happy feelings, and they sang a hymn, and having sung it, they went out to the mount of Olives.

And then He says to them, according to Luke, "But ye are they who have persevered with me in my temptations". He gave them credit. The Lord is lavish, beloved, in the credit He gives us. We may

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be sure that nothing will be omitted in any little attention that we pay to Him and His interests. As He says, "Seest thou this woman?" How pleased He was to point to her. And He goes over the details of the credit side of her account. And so He says, "But ye are they who have persevered with me in my temptations". They had continued. The period had not been very long, perhaps not as long as the experience of fellowship of most of us here. The period in which they continued with Him was comparatively short, but they continued, they continued with Him in His temptations. How real His humanity was, beloved! -- He was tempted. He learned obedience, we are told, from the things that He suffered. He was tempted in everything as we. And they were cognisant of it during those few years.

And they continued with Him. Think of what they saw! We can understand the remarks of Peter in regard to the apostle to be appointed: he was to be one who had assembled with them during all the time in which the Lord Jesus had come in and gone out among them, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which He was taken up. What wonderful things they saw! How real were these feelings of the Lord in encountering opposers, in encountering the bitterest opposition of the enemy in a multitude of ways, in every conceivable way in that wonderful life! But the disciples continued.

And then He says, "And I appoint unto you ...". I touch on this, dear brethren, at this particular juncture, so that we might understand that the Lord is in the position of appointing. "I appoint unto you, as my Father has appointed unto me, a kingdom, that ye may eat and drink at my table". Think of that encouragement in continuing with Him. What a reward to eat and drink with Him in His kingdom at His table, and to sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Think of all the greatness

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that entered into that, the change of circumstances that He contemplates as a consequence of their continuing with Him in His temptations. Are we not, dear brethren, encouraged in such a word, of course, making due allowance for the twelve? For there were only twelve thrones. There would not be two on a throne. But elsewhere we are told that we shall judge angels, and if we suffer, we shall reign.

Well, now having shown that the idea of the mightier was there, I want to show you how He disposed of them at the final test. For we shall be tested, dear brethren. We say the times are serious, but they may be more serious. It is well to be forewarned, for to be forewarned is to be forearmed. As far as I see the Lord never intends that the saints should expect relief from privilege of this kind. We do read that for the elect's sake the days shall be shortened, an important thing, and the promise to Philadelphia is, "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world". That is a promise. So we shall not go through what the Jewish remnant will go through. But the thought is that "evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived", 2 Timothy 3:13. Darkness increases. We are on the very edge of the last days. The Lord would encourage us to see that there is a certain amount of advantage and privilege in the special stress. That is to say there is to be testing. The Lord has great pleasure in looking on as to what the capabilities are. He sits as a refiner. We wonder at times why He does not stand and change the matter. But then He is looking on, watching, taking pleasure in the enduring feature of His own workmanship. Well, I do not want to miss that.

The Lord had these men. "These are the chief of the mighty men whom David had, who showed themselves valiant with him in his kingdom, with all

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Israel, to make him king, according to the word of Jehovah concerning Israel". Now He had them. His enemies might not attach importance to those few fishermen that He had. But He had them. They were His. I love to think that the Lord has me: He has you. It is an immense thought to get into your soul, the mighty men that David had; he had them. And as He approaches the last and most demanding part of His blessed life here He disposes of them according to His wisdom.

Matthew and Mark mention Gethsemane because they want us to understand that the circumstances are extremely pressing. They pour in all the severe features of the position. Love would not hide from us what we have to go through. It is well we should know. So that He goes to Gethsemane. Luke says the mount of Olives; John says a garden. But Matthew says Gethsemane, pressure. You say, 'You are discouraging me'. But it is no kindness, dear brethren, to hide from you what discipleship means. The Lord did not hide it. When a man said, "I will follow thee", the Lord told him what he had to do. Now He is entering into the place of pressure and He has got His disciples and He disposes of them. He says, "Sit here until I go away, and pray yonder". And then He selects three, Peter and the sons of Zebedee. Well, you might say, 'Why did He not take them all with Him?' Why did He say to some of them, "Sit here until I go away and pray yonder"? And then after He said that He selects three and takes them with Him, and He says, "Remain here ..." And He went forward a little and prayed; He went beyond them. Think of what all this was to heaven! Think of what heaven saw! The Father was there, although not in evidence. It was not the time of deliverance; He was not in evidence, though there. And the Lord invokes Him in the tenderest terms, "Abba, Father", as Mark says. But there are some

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of them away here sitting down, and three of them nearby. Now, dear brethren, this is all extremely searching. They are being tested. But then the Lord had them. They were gold in His eyes, every one of them. And His heart was burdened as never before. His sweat became as it were great drops of blood. He prayed more intently. The Spirit does not fail to bring forward the evidences of His humanity. Why should it be said, "And being in conflict he prayed more intently. And his sweat became as great drops of blood, falling down upon the earth", Luke 22:44? To show how real His humanity was; the greater the pressure, the more intent the prayer. But then these three selected ones are asleep. It does not say those that were sitting beyond were asleep. We do not know. But the three selected ones were asleep. You may say, 'I should not be asleep'. Would you not? You may be sure the Lord's selection was the best. It is to bring out what we are capable of when the test comes. But then the Lord did not abandon them. They were still His. And I speak for the encouragement of everybody here, we may give way under pressure, but that does not prove the Lord has not selected us. And so the Lord comes to them three times. He is bringing into evidence what they were. He is not intimating in the least degree that He had made any mistake in the selection. He had taken these three into Jairus' house and to the mount of transfiguration, and now He has selected them for this unique experience. They were tried men, but this pressure was greater than any experienced and they give way under it. But the Lord made no mistake in His selection. So that we need not be discouraged. There is no licence for giving way. But if it happens, it is no evidence that we have not been rightly selected. The Lord would encourage us to go on. So that while the law perfected nothing, and Matthew came in under that

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dispensation, the Lord was minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises of the fathers. But even with Him His disciples were reduced from twelve to eleven. Things were not perfected. It required His death and resurrection and the Holy Spirit here to bring in perfection.

So that John's gospel is intended to show perfection. He brings in what we may call an appendix. Chapter 20 records the failure even of Thomas after the resurrection. Thomas was absent and the Lord came to His own, only ten apostles. Judas had gone definitely and Thomas was absent. But the appendix, that is chapter 21, is to show that we must not take any notice of that, that there is perfection. The period of the Spirit is the period of perfection. Well, you say, 'There is Peter failing, gone off with six others of the leading men fishing'. 'Oh', you say, 'that is inexcusable. The Lord had been with them; He had shown His hands and side; had said, Peace be to you; had breathed into them. Why, this is the worst of all'. But is it? It is not how a horse falls, as we have often heard, but how he rises. It is the power in the person to get up that is shown in John. Of course, the Lord can lift you. He does, and steadies you. But the point is you get up. See how quickly they got right here.

And so in these verses the Lord says to Peter, "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these?" Peter says, "Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I am attached to thee". He says to him, "Feed my lambs". He says to him again a second time, "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me?" He says to him, "Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I am attached to thee". He says to him, "Shepherd my sheep". And then again the third time the Lord says, "Simon, son of Jonas, art thou attached to me?" Peter says, "Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I am attached to thee". Now that last "knowest"

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is in the original, a different word from the others. That is how perfection shows itself in the mighties that the Lord had. The word translated "knowest" in verses 15 and 16 refers to what is called conscious knowledge. The Lord was conscious of everything. That is what Peter said, but he changes his word after he says, "Thou knowest all things" and uses, in verse 17, an objective word: "Thou knowest that I am attached to thee". He means that, 'There is something in me now that You can see that proves that I love You'. That is the horse getting up.

There is power in that. He is saying virtually to the Lord, 'You see something in me this third time'. That is what we rely on when the brethren go astray. It is the work of God, and the third time brings out whether it is there or not. If the Lord probes you three times and there is nothing for the brethren to look at objectively, you might as well give up. You have just been living on light and there has not been the formative work of God. The Lord had given them every advantage in His disposition of them in Matthew and they went to sleep. And later on Peter denied the Lord. Yet all the time the element of perfection, of mightiness was there and in due course it would come to light, for he was now in the era of perfection, as we are.

The Lord is going to finish in a glorious way, but in virtue of the work of God which never fails, but always gives an account of itself. No matter how far one gets away from God, if the work of God is there, it will show itself. Sooner or later something will come to light to show that the work of God is there. And He says, 'I can trust you now'. I shall have no hesitation in trusting a brother or sister, who was genuinely recovered, with divine things. Genuine recovery makes one more trustworthy than ever. It is the work of God. And so the Lord does not hesitate. He gives Peter the charge of the lambs, the

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shepherding of the sheep and the feeding of the sheep. He is handing His treasures to trustworthy hands. That is what the mighties that the Lord has are to be employed in, dear brethren. He would entrust us with things. So if you do not want to be among them, I would appeal to you, to every one, so that the Lord can say, 'I have got this one and that one; I have got them all'. "And these are the chief of the mighty men whom David had, who shewed themselves valiant with him in his kingdom, with all Israel, to make him king, according to the word of Jehovah concerning Israel". That is what the Lord is calling for, dear brethren, those who as with Him are valiant, not turning aside from the enemy, but standing upright, trustworthy.

Peter turns around and sees John. The Lord disposes of those He has. He had disposed of Peter, given him his work, and Peter says, "Lord, and what of this man?" The Lord said, "If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me". You say there will not be any mighty men when the Lord comes. But the Lord intimates that there will be. I do not say He says so definitely, but He intimates that there would be some such as John. He was a man who lay in Jesus' bosom. He could ask the Lord questions. Peter beckoned that he should ask the Lord about the betrayal. He would be an important man to have in the last days, one who could lie in His bosom and ask a question throwing light on the whole position.

So that, as I said before, there are the mighties whom He disposes of, whom He has. He is not without them. He has got those whom He can employ, set in different positions in relation to the work. They are not to interfere with one another. The Lord would say, 'I have him and her; it is not for you to interfere'. He has got them. As far as I am concerned, and I am sure you, too, it is a question

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of being amongst them to whom He can reasonably look for sympathy in what He is doing, for participation in His joys. It comes into one's heart often on the first day of the week, what He has, hundreds of gatherings who enter into and rejoice with Him in what He has, those who become valiant with Him in His kingdom, to make Him King, according to the word of the Lord concerning all Israel. It is universal feeling and sympathy that you are with the Lord in all that He is doing and all that He has in this scene at the present time.

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ENTERING THE HOLIEST AND WALKING BY FAITH

Hebrews 11:1 - 40

J.T. I suppose the holiest is introduced to show how we have liberty of approach to God, that we should draw near. It is a wilderness setting. It is the "true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man", but it is nevertheless pitched. It is not built, but pitched. It is a wilderness position, and therefore provisional, so that we might have liberty and know how to draw near to God. "Let us draw near" is the point, and then "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together"; so that you might say the whole of Hebrews is initial. It would be a question, therefore, of the individual believer understanding that he has liberty of approach, and how he may approach with intelligence and acceptably to God. The holiest is in that setting, and it is in order that the individual entering may see what obtains before God, so that what obtains here in the way of religious service might be displaced in his mind: all that is clerical, and the whole fabric of christendom would be displaced in the man's mind who has had a look into the holiest.

H.F.N. Would you give us a little help in regard to the thought of the minister of the sanctuary in chapter 8, and then what is involved in the thought of the great priest? You emphasised the fact that the tabernacle had been pitched; what would be the distinctive bearing of the thought of the great priest in relation to the holiest?

J.T. The great Priest is over the house of God, that is to say, it is not a local thought, it is a wide universal thought, and one phrase that helps throughout the epistle is that we have such an One as that.

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It is to assure us that every provision is made that we might draw near. The great Priest is on our side; we have Him: "Having a great priest over the house of God, let us approach". Our footing in the house is determined by Him.

M.W.B. Would you say that in the development of the epistle there is anything that reaches to the height of chapter 2, the Sanctifier and the sanctified all of one? Where do we reach that in the development of the epistle?

J.T. It is doubtful whether we do reach it. It is there objectively in chapter 2 as involving more than the wilderness, but the point here is to draw near. What you get after you draw near is left to be found out -- what God is in His own realm. This is to get us to draw near.

M.W.B. You are brought to the doorway, so to speak, with liberty of entrance, but there is no development of that which lies beyond.

J.T. The apostle says that he could not go very far with them because they were dull of hearing, but the point is to draw near, and if you do so, you get liberated and warmed. It is the realm of God.

J.S. Do you suggest the "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together" would follow entering the holiest?

J.T. The fact that he has to enjoin the brethren not to forsake the assembling of themselves together shows, among other things, that they were very low down. You can hardly say he develops much the idea that we being many are all of one: "For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren". That is an exalted thought. You cannot make much of that where people are neglecting to come together. If you cannot get people to assemble together it is not much use except in a sort of objective

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way. Great things lie beyond, but you do not develop them until you have drawn near.

M.W.B. So is chapter 2 brought in rather as light for encouragement, and then left as to practical development?

J.T. I think so. The full setting of the truth is there, but as to the actual point to which we are brought I do not think we go beyond that, that the way is there for you to draw nigh. So it is, "Let us approach". Drawing near to God is the point. It is not drawing near to the holiest, but getting near to God.

Ques. Why is a certain state suggested? "Let us draw near".

J.T. That is one of the main thoughts in the epistle to get people to move forward. The point was they were lapsing back into ceremonial religion; they were very low down, and so the practical state was needed: "sprinkled as to our hearts from a wicked conscience, and washed as to our body with pure water".

Eu.R. Would you say a little more as to the distinction between drawing near to God and drawing near to the holiest?

J.T. Drawing near to the holiest is just a type brought in on account of the persons addressed. It would not have been used if the letter had been addressed to gentile believers. It is just a typical expression which means we may be in the holiest place and see what is there. It is to undo the influence of current religion. You see what is before God, but then the point is to draw near to God. It is not the God of the types exactly; when he says, "Let us draw near", he has in mind the full christian position of God known in Christ.

J.J. What would you say is the epistle that immediately follows this?

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J.T. Romans would really run parallel with it, and viewed collectively, I should say 1 Corinthians. It is not beyond any of those epistles, but scarcely up to them.

Ques. Would it be right to say that Hebrews 11 is the result of God drawing near, and then the mind to draw near to Him, and then being maintained there?

J.T. Just so. Chapter 11 is the good company we are in, the men who walked and acted by faith. We are surrounded by "so great a cloud of witnesses", and all that is on the line of encouragement to get into the spiritual realm.

W.C.G. Was the psalmist in that mind when he said, "I had rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God, than dwell in the tents of wickedness", Psalm 84:10?

J.T. You just get a look in, but as you draw near, God says, I want you to see that this is what is before Me, it is another world. But this is initial. It is to get us to see what is there. So if I draw near to God I shall get all that and much more that is not opened up here, because the apostle says expressly that he could not go very far with them.

W.C.G. Is it not very much akin to walking in the light as God is in the light?

J.T. Pretty much.

M.W.B. I should like to get a little more clear on the details given as to entering the holiest. How far does the "new and living way" take you? What does it imply?

J.T. Well, it is christianity just in contrast to judaism.

M.W.B. Does it imply a new order of man?

J.T. Quite so; all that christianity involves. It is the way opened up for us in the death and resurrection of Christ. There was no life in the old system; of course, the priests were alive, but the sacrifices

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were dead. It is christianity, to be simple and general about it: "The new and living way which he has dedicated for us through the veil, that is, his flesh".

I do not know what else to say. It would take most of us all our lives to understand this new and living way. It is very needful now because christianity has been lost sight of. The old way is judaism or heathendom, that which we have all around us, combinations of men; christianity is a new way which is living, and which is seen characteristically in all the epistles, for the idea of life is in them. So, if anybody wanted to go there, I should like to take him to a spiritual meeting where intelligent brethren approach God. There you get the idea of the living way, but if you went to any of the denominations I suppose you would get the old way. It becomes very practical. It is "a new and living way", but then the Lord Jesus has dedicated it for us through the veil, that is, His flesh. It has cost Him much, and that always touches our hearts. The subject really opens up at the beginning of chapter 8 where you get the Lord introduced as the great Priest and the Minister of the sanctuary, and what follows is that He has somewhat to offer. What is touched from that point onwards, till you reach chapter 10: 19, is a question of the covenant, so that our hearts should be released in the sense of the love of God. All that is to get us into liberty of soul, and where the covenant is understood and you get brethren together, there is the new and living way. They understand the death of Christ and they understand it cost Him His flesh to make the way in for us, and so we are there in liberty, not only because of what is said, but because of what is shown by the Holy Spirit (chapter 9: 8). I suppose the apostle could not direct them to an assembly in Judaea where you could see that, but possibly it could be seen in Ephesus.

M.W.B. Then in a general way would Exodus 24

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be analogous to what is developed in chapters 8 and 9?

J.T. Pretty much; you get there the volume of blood and the youthfulness of the offerers. It is a scene of order and intelligence and youthful freshness, and the volume of blood. That is the idea, that you are set there in the light of the covenant.

P.L. Do you get this in Psalm 43? "Send out thy light and thy truth: they shall lead me, they shall bring me to thy holy mount, and unto thy habitations. Then will I go unto the altar of God, unto the God of the gladness of my joy". Does that link up with Hebrews, the altar bringing in the Mediator of the covenant?

J.T. I think it does. What has been said about Exodus 24 helps, because the people are challenged as to the covenant, and they commit themselves to it. They entered into it with their eyes opened, and then Moses begins to act, and the young men come forward and offer up the offerings. There is abundance of blood, and the people are sprinkled and the book is sprinkled. The blood is for God and is in volume. So we are in the presence of God, what God is to us in Christ. And not only that, but there are the youthful offerers; there is nothing stale, it is in the energy and vigour of youthful life. That is the kind of thing I understand to indicate the holiest; it is to be shown in an abstract way, how people move towards God.

W.C.G. So it says, "In whose heart are the ways", Psalm 84:5.

J.T. Exactly, the ways of Zion. God would appeal to us to draw near to Him, not in fleshly energy but in intelligence as to what is before Him. The holiest denotes what is before God, what He is looking at. It is not a family position, it is on the sands of the desert; it is a question of light and understanding of what is before God. But when we get into the presence of God He has flooring in His

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abode, "Under his feet ... paved work of a sapphire stone", and He brings us there.

Ques. Is it on the line of James 4:8, "Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you"?

J.T. Just so.

H.F.N. How does what you say bear on what comes out in chapter 12, that we have come to "God, judge of all"? What is the thought in coming near to God in relation to the holiest and then coming to God as the Judge of all? Are the two thoughts distinct or bound up together?

J.T. Of course in that chapter you have the whole range of God's world viewed officially. It is not exactly the family, although the family is part of it. The "assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven" is a class of dignitaries; but the whole range of God's world is viewed officially, as you might look at this or any country. But then there is going on in secret in any country what is not spoken of at all -- love's abode. In chapter 12 we have the whole range of God's world in official relations, and so "God, judge of all" is necessarily there. It is not the Father but the Judge of all, for you must have everything that is legalised for a world according to God. But drawing near to God is not quite that. If we draw near to God, He will, as Exodus 15 says, bring us in. It is very beautiful: "Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, The place that thou, Jehovah, hast made thy dwelling, The Sanctuary, Lord, that thy hands have prepared".

H.F.N. I think that is very helpful. Would it be right to say in regard to the writer of the epistle, that from the fact of his going into the holiest he is able to bring all the light of the future system into the present moment?

J.T. I am sure that is good, because after Exodus 24 the whole book is engaged, you might say, with

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the tabernacle. It is very suggestive. God has got His people with Himself in principle, and now He says, I will open up what is in My mind for you; and that is what this epistle is intended to do, only it is corrective. They had retrograded, and that made it all the more difficult.

J.R.S. Is what you have said in regard to Exodus in the thought of God bringing us in what you spoke about? I felt it was encouraging, that as we have drawn near, God would bring us in.

J.T. He would bring us in and not only disclose what He has objectively in Christ, but make us understand what we are in Christ, which involves the land. Exodus 15 goes on to the land, and also, as a matter of fact, to David and Solomon. So that chapter 11 is the good company you are brought into. There is not a word about faith in the wilderness in it. We have been engaged with the wilderness; chapter 10 is that. I mean, what we have been engaged in up to the point of drawing near to God is the wilderness position, but there is not a word said in chapter 11 about faith in the wilderness. So it is not so much a question of faith drawing near. Of course, there is "full assurance of faith", but it is by the "new and living way", the Spirit.

M.W.B. Why is there no allusion to faith in the wilderness, nor any allusion to the wilderness in this chapter?

J.T. It is very significant that, whilst the wilderness is the position taken up in the book, faith passes it over, the history of faith does not include it. It would indicate that the standpoint in this chapter is the work of God. There is no faith aside from the work of God. I think it somewhat throws light on John 1:4: "In him was life, and the life was the light of men". It is the life, the light of men.

J.J. Why is there so much place given to Genesis

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in the chapter? Is that because of the life that was in those patriarchs?

J.T. I think so. It is to show that the light of life shone. Of course, theologians make John 1:4 a question of the Logos before incarnation, whereas it is not so. It is a question of what was in manhood, whether before or after incarnation. If it is before incarnation it is what was reflected.

J.J. Showing the kind of light that shone in those men.

J.T. It was the light that was anticipated in the life of Jesus. That light shone in one way or another, and we get the account of it here. So we are in the realm of life in this chapter as it appeared in different ages from the beginning. It is the variety of life anticipating the incarnation. What shone in Jesus here upon earth was reflected backwards because He is the Author of faith, it says. There is really no faith outside of Him; He is the Author of it, not in the Deity but in Manhood. It is in manhood that the idea of faith comes out. He is the Author and Finisher of faith; so wherever faith exists it is a reflection of Christ, but in a living way.

Eu.R. So in John 1 it refers to "those that believe on his name", and then it says, "who have been born". Would that bear out your thought as to faith being connected with the work of God?

J.T. Quite so; there could be no believing without that.

E.J.McB. Do you understand that if one draws nigh to God it is not a question then of anything here but of what is before God, and so the wilderness does not appear in it? What God is operating Himself comes into your mind as you have drawn nigh to Him.

J.T. That is the idea, only He has brought that into the wilderness, to where we are, so that we might know what is before Him. It is not that I get up to

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heaven where Christ is, but God has brought it down here; it is a wilderness position.

E.J.McB. That was your point in John: "In him was life, and the life was the light of men".

J.T. That is it. You get the idea in Him, so that, whether the light reflected backwards or is coming on now to us, it is the same light, the light of the life of Christ. So that in this chapter I apprehend we are in the realm of life; we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses who have gone this way. They have lived by faith, so to speak; they lived in spite of conditions. The conditions of life had really not come in yet; they could not come in until Christ became Man and died and went up into heaven and the Holy Spirit came down; the conditions of life could not exist aside from all that, but the light of this reflected backwards, and these men walked in it in spite of the conditions.

M.W.B. Would it be right to say that morally the elements of life were in them individually, though there was no sphere in which they could yet live save in the knowledge of God?

J.T. That is what I thought. It is not that they had eternal life; eternal life had not yet come into form. The Lord said, "I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly", John 10:10. That would be what we have, but this is the light of that reflected backwards. It is not the rays of the sun in the heavens, but the reflection of the rising sun. The principle was there of walking and living by faith.

P.L. So is Enoch introduced in Jude on that principle? He is found in life in spite of the conditions of apostasy there.

J.T. Quite so, the principle of life applied to him. The chapter emphasises death; he died, he died, he died, but this one man did not die, and God establishes the principle of life. If you get the principle it

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is enough. Genesis is a book of principles, a book of roots, as has often been remarked, and you get the great principle of life in Enoch; he did not die.

W.C.G. The Lord said, "He that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life", John 8:12.

J.T. It is well for us to see that chapter 11 opens up a realm of life, but not in the sense in which it will be seen in the world to come, because eternal life had not taken form. "The eternal life, which was with the Father ..." is not His eternal existence, but the life having taken form now in a Man on earth, and we are brought into it. We have it, but then the principle was there from the beginning, and faith depends on that.

Ques. Would you say that the reflection of the light of Christ backwards was dependent upon the Spirit of Christ?

J.T. Exactly; the Spirit of Christ was there. We see it in Noah; it is the retro-active action of the Spirit of Christ, but the Spirit of Christ as Man. We have to distinguish between that and the Holy Spirit as presented in Genesis 1 and Genesis 6. It is the same Spirit, of course; in Genesis 1 it is the Spirit of God, but in Genesis 6 it is the Spirit of Christ.

Ques. They "killed the Prince (or Author) of life", Acts 3:15. That would refer to Him in manhood?

J.T. Exactly. Of course, He could only be that as a divine Person, but it is Christ in manhood; He is the Author of life in manhood.

M.W.B. So these features of faith in chapter 11 are really the features or qualities of life, are they not?

J.T. Yes. You feel it is a humbling fact that the writer has to bring them forward; the Jewish christians must have been very low down that he could not appeal to current conditions. The great appeal to the Old Testament in this book is very

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significant, and he brings in the living side. He has dealt with the typical side, but now he brings in the living side, and he might say, These men had no such advantages as you; they lived in faith in spite of conditions, you ought to live in faith in your conditions.

Ques. Is it because they were a people in life that it is said that God was not ashamed to be called their God?

J.T. Just so. He is the living God, and not only so, but in some of them there was a heavenly mind.

They did not think of "Jerusalem which now is", but they waited for a city which for them had foundations. The apostle says in effect there were men in those days far beyond you; they were thinking of the heavenly city.

P.L. Is that why these persons are brought in in that heavenly system? "The spirits of just men made perfect" -- does that refer to these persons?

J.T. Quite so.

W.W. Do you make a distinction between the conditions that existed then and those that are now?

J.T. The conditions that now are, are conditions of life. They are opened up in the first epistle of John. He shows that the life has come; it is no imaginative thing, but seen and handled. "That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life; (and the life has been manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us:) that which we have seen and heard we report to you, that ye also may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ", 1 John 1:1 - 3. The conditions of life are there. "These things have I written to you that

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ye may know that ye have eternal life", chapter 5: 13. That word "know" is conscious knowledge. It could not be said of any of these men of faith; the conditions of life had not come in, but they were living in spite of conditions with little or nothing to support them.

M.W.B. It gives the chapter a very interesting setting, to look back on living features.

J.T. Quite so. The idea of faith is substantiating things, making things substantial. Enoch never heard anything about faith. The word is only mentioned once in all the Old Testament, and that is a remarkable thing, because the time of faith had not come. So these men were living on the principle before the thing had come; they were living in it in spite of conditions.

J.J. I thought the expression in Habakkuk had the idea of faithfulness.

J.T. Faith in Deuteronomy is that, but faith in Habakkuk is just what we are speaking about.

J.J. How far did the Lord Himself have faith?

He is the Leader and Completer of faith. Was that not in connection with these men and not Himself exactly?

J.T. He was the Leader of it, and that only emphasises what we are saying, that it was anticipative. It says, "The just shall live by faith", not 'is living'. But now it is not the just shall live, but the just are living by faith.

Ques. Is that why it is brought in in verse 6?

"He that draws near to God must believe that he is".

J.T. That emphasises what we have been saying.

Drawing near to God implies faith; we must believe that He is. So that the history runs on to Sarah.

The chapter is very markedly divided up for us into subjects, and it runs on to Sarah in the end of verse 12, so that we might get some idea of the power of conception. It is by faith, so that there might be seed,

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that there might be increase. As it says, "Wherefore also there have been born of one, and that of one become dead, even as the stars of heaven in multitude, and as the countless sand which is by the sea shore". That is the kind of increase that is intimated. It is a question of conception, the power of life subjectively for increase. When you come to that point, then the apostle generalises: "All these died in faith, not having received the promises". They did not receive the promises; we have received them; in principle we have received everything by the reception of the Spirit.

Ques. It is stressed in the epistle to the Galatians that faith has come; is that because they were turning back to what was formal and dead?

J.T. Quite so; it is very much akin to this epistle, so that the period of faith is stressed in Galatians. We have no list of worthies in that epistle; it is rather to show there that the period of faith did not begin until Christ came to bring out that the position now is that of sonship. We do well to notice how they all "died in faith, not having received the promises". That is the position; they lived in spite of adverse conditions; and it is not only that the outward conditions were adverse but the life conditions, the furnishings of life, were not there; and yet they lived by faith.

Ques. Would you make a difference between faith here and the way Jude speaks of it: "Building yourselves up on your most holy faith" (verse 20)?

J.T. Jude has in mind not only the element of faith in your soul but the system of truth that you believe, that you "contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints". It is the system of truth, but this truth held in the soul.

F.S.M. What would you say as to the secret of increase in a locality? You referred in prayer to the

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evidence of increase generally. Would Sarah be the principle on which increase would come in?

J.T. I think so; she ends the section in the chapter. She represents the power of conception; as it says, "By faith also Sarah herself received strength for the conception of seed, and that beyond a seasonable age; since she counted him faithful who promised. Wherefore also ...". It is the immensity of the result, of the seed. So that would be something for us in our meetings -- the power of conception of seed.

J.R.S. Some of us are feeling the lack of increase.

J.T. Well, that is a point to be taken into account. Of course, the Lord is taking many away, and that will go on, but we want the faith of Sarah.

J.J. Would you link Rahab, the other woman that is mentioned, with her? She finishes another section.

J.T. We may just touch on that as showing the work of God. The list really closes with her as to specific cases, and I think she represents the work of God in the land; she brings us into the land. Not that she entered into it; she was there, but she represents the work of God by itself without any external help.

W.W. Would Lydia's state of soul give you the idea of the subjective state that would be amenable to Paul's ministry?

J.T. Yes. God opened her heart; she received the kind of thing into her heart that would develop. The conception of seed is not the word of God. There are two ideas in seed. It says, "He does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed; which is Christ", Galatians 3:16. He is the great idea of Seed personally. But in the first parable in Matthew 13 the seed is the word of God. That is the kind of seed that Lydia received; she received the word of God in its exalted character, that is to say, whatever Paul said; she attended to

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the things spoken by Paul. That would be for the conception of seed, that there might be such persons at Philippi as are indicated in the second parable in Matthew 13, the parable of the tares, where the seed are persons. That is the idea in Sarah; she conceived and brought forth seed.

Ques. Do you connect power with faith, that is to say, the power of inception and the power of conception, according to Luke?

J.T. There you get the most exalted thought of conception: "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and power of the Highest overshadow thee, wherefore the holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God". That is the greatest idea of seed, indeed, it is what is alluded to in Galatians: not to seeds, but to seed, which is Christ. That is the greatest thought, but I think Sarah represents something more; I mean as to its application to ourselves. It is the idea of persons being conceived, that is, brought forth; as the apostle says in Galatians "My children, of whom I again travail in birth until Christ shall have been formed in you". The person in whom Christ is formed is seed.

W.L. Is there a progressive line indicated in the earlier verses of the chapter leading up to Sarah?

J.T. The chapter is very constructive, so that we are delivered from the power of the sciences, as they are called. Of course, we may take and use them, but many are held and darkened by them. There is not an atom of faith in the sciences at all, whether astronomy or geology, the two great sciences that are set aside in the first verses. "By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God". What a grand and comprehensive thought, setting the saints in relation to God in their souls in regard of the universe! We know the history in that way. Then we have the idea of drawing near to God in Abel: "By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent

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sacrifice than Cain". How did he get the idea? We speak of the disadvantages of many, but see the disadvantages of Abel. No doubt he enquired from his father and mother, and no doubt they told him something, but the moral element was in his soul or he would never have drawn near to God with an excellent sacrifice. Then in Enoch, as we were saying, we have the great thought of life in a man that was not; he had no part in the course of this world, and God took him. It is a question of that form of life that pleases God, which is fit for heaven. Then we have the condemnation of the world. That is a mighty thing, that one man should condemn the world. You see that in the construction of the ark. We have the idea of framing in the earlier verse, but with Noah it was the idea of construction or preparing "By which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith".

J.R.S. I would like a word as to the difference between framing and constructing.

J.T. Of course it is the word 'preparation', but it involved the construction of a sea-going vessel. 'Framing', I think, implies due preparation without which you could not have the universe, because God is "a God of measure". We have no specifications of the universe; it is beyond us to take in the specifications of the universe. But we get the specifications of the ark -- both the ark of Noah and the ark of the tabernacle. That is to say, we are able to compass moral things but not the physical universe.

J.R.S. What you have said helps in regard to many expressions in Proverbs and Job as to framing.

J.T. I do not suppose anybody saw the specifications. Wisdom is greatly stressed in Proverbs in that connection. It is a question of wisdom's operations.

E.J.McB. Then, with regard to the question of increase in local meetings and the faith of Sarah, is

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that a faith which believes in God's capability of bringing things into being where there is nothing?

J.T. Yes. She and Abraham were dead, so it is the power of God in any locality. You reckon on what God can do, but you would look to see that kind of faith, the faith of increase.

E.J.McB. So that we are not so much bothered with numbers. If it be one where that principle is at work a vast multitude may spring from it.

J.T. Yes.

H.F.N. Is there any link between what you have been speaking of in Sarah, and Rahab in relation to the work of God, and then, would the third woman -- Moses' mother -- bring in the kind of child that would be born in the locality, the child beautiful?

J.T. That is lovely. Will you not tell us something about that? You want to look round on the young brothers and sisters to see the loveliness. "They saw the child beautiful". Apparently his parents were the first to see it.

H.F.N. Does it not emphasise the thought of hiding? If Sarah's faith is brought in, would the principle of hiding come in as locally we see that the child beautiful appears?

J.T. I think so. It is the epistle to the Colossians, which teaches us how to hide according to God. I think that is very good. That is, you keep the child out of the way of the world, away from the enemy.

J.J. And Rahab's place in the genealogy in Matthew is wonderful. What a conception she had, in the direct line of David!

J.T. The result was a great distance off. It is undoubtedly the same Rahab, and it shows what may happen a long way off. We are not too local; we have a long look-out, and so the generations in Matthew are most interesting in that way. It is the thing a long way off, faith going down the line. And yet it is counted carefully -- forty-two generations, and

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some that, according to the best ecclesiastical reckonings, ought to have a place there are deliberately omitted. They are not there, and the reason is not far to seek, that Jezebel has had to do with them. The Spirit of God will have nothing to do with that progeny. That is, what has the greatest pretensions at the present time the Spirit of God carefully refuses in that line; I mean, as to things coming down to us. There are forty-two generations; everything is counted, and it might appear arbitrary, but it is not. If God has left out certain kings that ought to be there, it is because of their link with Jezebel. You may say that Rahab should not be there, but she is there; God has put her there. God does not think of men's work, but of His own work.

Eu.R. So the psalm in connection with Zion suggests God's work: "This man was born there",

Psalm 87:4.

J.T. When He their birthplace. Ques. What do the gift of God?

J.T. Well, it is: "Of whom are all things". You cannot get it elsewhere save from God.

Rem. I was wondering whether it was a question of sovereignty.

J.T. Quite so; it is the gift of God.

Ques. Is there an important principle in that these people were prepared to go on in whatever circum stances they were until they died? Have we not seen recently that a good many have gone well for a time, but they have stood still and have not been prepared to go on until they died?

J.T. "All these died in faith".

Rem. And the next chapter opens with the race that is set before us, the idea of going on to the end.

J.T. "For this God is our God for ever and ever; he will be our guide until death", Psalm 48:14. Faith writes up His people He knows you understand as to faith being

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lays hold of God, which is very comforting. But then, on the other hand, Noah is included in these, and there is not a word about him after Genesis 9 and yet he lived for hundreds of years after that. We might think, Poor Noah! but the Spirit of God says that he died in faith, and we must believe the Spirit of God. Of some of our brethren whom we believe are lost we must think that they have died in faith; however far astray they may have gone, we do not give any of them up.

Ques. You would allow for the discipline of God that is seen in the next chapter in that connection?

J.T. God sees to their dying in faith. In Genesis 22 when Isaac is received from the dead in figure, and Rebecca is introduced, there is a beautiful link with the book of Job leading us into the wide range of the work of God unknown to us. The book of Job is to teach us that God works on a wide scale. Job is only a sample, and who knows how many there were in whom God worked throughout the ages, but they will all be gathered up.

J.R.S. I suppose you get your thoughts adjusted as you draw near to God.

J.T. You feel that "God, the judge of all" does right. We come to "God, the judge of all" and we see results that we had not anticipated. What a testimony there is in the book of Job! It speaks of workings that the scriptures take no notice of at all. There are hardly any references to the book of Job in Scripture. Then you find men like the magi from the East who were able to take account of the star of the King of the Jews. How did they know? Well, that is all life. It is a question of God, and if we draw near to God many things will be adjusted in our minds. The nearer we get to God the more things will become adjusted.

J.J. There is a reference to Job in Ezekiel 14.

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J.T. Of course the book was known, but the thing it deals with is not mentioned, that is, the collateral work of God in relation to the testimony of creation and in relation to the Lord's testimony among the Jews, that He is the God of the gentiles. He is the God of the race, and He has not left Himself without witness, and He is working in relation to the witness He has given.

J.J. Why is the history of Abraham broken into two parts?

J.T. He is so important. It may be that yours and mine would only be one. He comes in after the generality mentioned in verses 13 to 16, and it is a question of the resurrection. "By faith Abraham, when tried, offered up Isaac, and he who had received to himself the promises offered up his only begotten son". What a volume of things that opens up -- "his only begotten son"!

P.L. Is this feature of life that you have referred to characterised by surrender right through the chapter, and does it prefigure in that way the life of God here in the One who surrendered Himself to death, the Lord Jesus?

J.T. Quite so; it was the going forward in spite of circumstances. That is what characterises faith, and so you get that prominently in Abraham: "By faith Abraham, when tried, offered up Isaac, and he who had received to himself the promises offered up his only begotten son, as to whom it had been said, In Isaac shall thy seed be called: counting that God was able to raise him even from among the dead, whence also he received him in a figure". It is the way that faith goes forward against circumstances. You pause at this second touch in the history of Abraham; it is the point reached in his soul when he was able to give up him in whom all the promises centred. It is the giving up of Christ in the flesh; He has to die if the purposes of God are to be fulfilled.

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Faith goes beyond the life of Jesus in the flesh; it is Christ in resurrection now.

Ques. It says, "The elders have obtained testimony". Did Abraham receive testimony in connection with the reception of the promises and the reception of Isaac from the dead?

J.T. I think the elders receiving testimony is that they were honoured in being noticed. Abraham was confirmed, of course, in the reception of Isaac: he was given according to promise, but they received testimony in the sense in which we have it here; they were honoured. It is noticeable that it is the "only begotten son". He is the only begotten son as the one born after the Spirit. It was a remarkable birth. It was not a birth after the flesh, although he was begotten in the ordinary way, but it was a birth after the Spirit. So he becomes in the most exalted way a type of Christ as the only begotten. The only One literally begotten in the power of the Spirit was Jesus. But Isaac was born after that principle, and so he stands out as the only begotten; there was no other child like him.

E.J.McB. So, in the two thoughts of Abraham, is the idea that if God calls He tests what He calls, and you prove the value of it?

J.T. It is to bring out the genuineness of the call. How lovely Abraham was to God on that occasion when he went on and on with his son and then offered him up! So God called out his name, "Abraham, Abraham!" How delightful he was to heaven!

Ques. Why does it say of Sarah that she received strength, and of Abraham that he found strength in faith?

J.T. I suppose the latter is a little more dignified. It shows that Abraham took the thing to him and became exercised about it intelligently. That is, he believed what God said, and he found strength in believing that the thing would take place.

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M.W.B. With regard to the expression as to the Lord being the "leader and completer of faith", in what way does He stand out as the One who trod the path? How far would the principle of faith be applicable to Him?

J.T. In the most absolute way. Being the Leader of it gives Him His distinction and takes care of His Deity, but the perfection of manhood is there. It was the perfection of man to live by faith. All these men lived by faith in some little way, of course, but He was the Leader and Completer of it. I suppose it speaks of the Lord in an inscrutable way. "I was cast upon thee from the womb; thou art my God from my mother's belly", Psalm 22:10. That was God speaking as a Man. Psalm 16 opens it up in a most touching way.

M.W.B. The surrender of such an One must have been an intense matter to the heart of God because it applies to Him here. The "leader and completer of faith" is the path here.

J.T. It is. The great cloud of witnesses refers to these persons being witnesses in their respective histories of this great principle. They are not around us as spirits, which would be a false idea, but they are witnesses historically of the great principle of faith.

J.J. I have always hesitated to connect faith with the Lord personally. I thought that being the Author and Finisher He set it all on, but as found in others. You could hardly speak of the Lord as a Man of faith?

J.T. Why not? You cannot take this scripture in any other sense, as I see. The Finisher of it is in Himself, as is also being the Author of it; He has set out the great principle in perfection. Abel was not the author; he did not begin anything. The thing was reflected backwards in whatever God did. I believe it is seen in what God did in the making of the coats of skins for Adam and Eve, although it

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would be incongruous to bring Adam in. So the faith was the light of the life of Jesus reflected backwards in how He regarded God here. You cannot speak to God nor approach God save as taught, and who can teach us save Jesus? The knowledge of God could not exist without Jesus -- the Man here.

Ques. Is there any connection with the last chapter? "Imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and to the ages to come".

J.T. That is the link; the more we get to the idea of the incarnation, the more we shall understand the whole position. The existence of creation itself hinged on the incarnation. Without it all would be a blank and useless. It is all a question of Christ in manhood, and all the light radiates from Christ in manhood. Whatever there is has that in mind; we being with that Person.

M.W.B. Is not this one of those scriptures which we can only follow as viewing the Lord in His position as Man?

J.T. Quite so. We cannot arrive at the truth save as we begin with Jesus. All the divine names, as far as I can make them out, are relative names, but the relativity depends upon the Lord Jesus here in manhood. How could anyone come to apprehend the Supreme Being as an Object for worship save as in the Spirit of Jesus, but there you get it perfectly. The Spirit of God so operates from the beginning, but in a retrospective way, and the minds of the saints will be revolutionised as they see that we must begin with Christ in manhood to get any light on the thought at all. Every right thought must radiate from Jesus.

S.J.B.C. I believe in John 1 there are twelve names and titles given to the Lord, and all are relative.

J.T. Every divine name in Scripture is relative.

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S.R. Does Peter connect the power of conception with the "hidden man of the heart" in the word to the wives? So he brings in the holy women of old who adorned themselves thus, and then goes on to say, "Whose children ye have become". Was it not that that characterised the mother of Moses?

J.T. I think that opens it up a good bit. The "hidden man of the heart" of Gideon's mother must have been Christ in some sense, because she had great kingly thoughts; her children were like the children of a king. The hidden man of her heart must have been more than Joash the Abi-ezrite, and so the hidden man of the heart of the wife of Manoah must have been more than Manoah -- he was a poor affair -- for she brought forth Samson, and that is a principle that runs through. The hidden man of Sarah's heart must have been Christ in some sense.

P.L. Does Hannah convey in her song who was the hidden man of her heart?

J.T. She does indeed! That is a very fine example.

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NAMES OF DIVINE PERSONS IN THE BAPTISMAL FORMULA

Matthew 28:19, 20

J.T. This verse 19 gives us the only names of the divine Persons in which they are seen as relative to One Another. The names that we have throughout the Scriptures seem to be names expressly in relation to creation, so that the baptismal formula, having in view that we should believe, implies that believers are introduced into the light of God as the Trinity under names in which the Persons are in relation to Each Other, and, as in these relations to One Another, they are in relation to men or nations or the whole realm of creation. That is, the one God as the Trinity is conveyed under names of graded relationship.

A.J.H.B. What relation is connected with the thought of the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Well, it seems to be subordinate.

A.J.H.B. Do you mean in being placed last?

J.T. Yes, and, of course, in the light of other scriptures we know it is. From the actual original meaning of the word we cannot assume it was a name that the divine Persons would employ in relation to One Another in absoluteness, meaning 'wind' or 'breath'. We cannot speak of the three divine Persons in absoluteness regarding one as the Spirit and the Others as something else, because "God is a Spirit". So that what is behind it is now understood. It is evidently a name taken in relation to creation involving power in action and yet perhaps unseen. The first mention of the Spirit is that He was hovering over the face of the waters, as if the suggestion is of divine feeling and sympathy, God in nearness to the need. As indeed in Genesis 6 the Spirit is referred to as striving with men, a very lowly attitude to take with men away from God; He is seen striving with them.

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A.J.H.B. Do you think it suggests the thought of serving?

J.T. Yes, the humble attitude of striving with people unsympathetic with what you are striving for. There is nothing arbitrary, but rather lowly sympathy preparing us for the great service He is rendering now, only that He is now here as come from heaven. Sent by the Father and sent by the Son to us, He has taken a lowly attitude in the divine economy, but one most essential as dealing with matters in a first-hand, nearby way, and maintaining subjectively all that is presented objectively.

J.J. Would the verse in Hebrews 9 be in contrast to that? "Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God". You get the three Persons mentioned again.

J.T. Well, He was available to the Lord who acted by Him. I do not know what the preposition is there, whether it is in His power or not, but He is there as available to the Lord in the supreme act of atonement.

A.J.H.B. That expression "eternal Spirit" has been taken up as rather proving the thought of the Spirit beforehand, but the word "eternal" is more characteristic, is it not?

J.T. It is in keeping with Hebrews. There could be no difficulty about making it retroactive, extending backward of course, but to make too much of the word "Spirit" will get us into confusion, because God is a Spirit. The word seems intelligible as applied to One who is active, if necessarily unseen, but always acting, ever-present, and maintaining suitability to God in all circumstances.

Eu.R. Have you any thought why in Romans 8 we have the "Spirit itself", whereas in John 14, for instance, He is spoken of so emphatically as Him?

J.T. It is only a question of gender. The primary word, of course, would be neuter, but we know it is a Person. It is just a question of language; how

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different words are employed in the application of gender. If you speak of the Godhead you have to say 'It' -- the Deity.

J.J. Are not all the passages where the three Persons are brought in of special significance? For instance, in Ephesians, "For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father", chapter 2: 18. Is not that another case where the bringing together of the divine names is important?

J.T. It is interesting to go through the New Testament and see where the three Persons are active. One has thought of that. Perhaps the most prominent occasion, at any rate at the outset, is that of the Lord's baptism. They are brought into evidence there as showing that if One of the Persons speaks it is a voice from heaven. Each is viewed distinctly; they are distinctive Personalities, and yet the One who became flesh here in manhood is the Object of the other Two.

Ques. Have you in mind that these relationships you speak of refer to the Persons Themselves, or do they refer to men, or both?

J.T. I think they refer to the Persons Themselves. Clearly they do in this passage, but combined. It is God, not only as Creator but in redemptive relation. It was the idea of God, but not indeed to all, you might say. His relation as Creator, I suppose, underlies it, but it is a question of redemption, because of the symbol of the death of Christ being used -- the baptism. But to make these three names the names applying to Them in absoluteness is where the mistake is, I think. The term "God" is used to designate Them in absoluteness. It conveys our thought of God before incarnation or before creation. These are the only names that I can think of that can be used as designating relations between the Persons, and yet they are relations that have men or creation in view on the ground of redemption.

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A.J.G. Where it says that in eternity God will be "all in all", will that be God as known in this way?

J.T. That is what I understand -- God thus known. I think (without giving it much thought) the term "God" in its varied forms has been assumed to be a name attachable to the Deity, to the Godhead in absoluteness. I mean by absoluteness, apart altogether from anything else but Itself, but then the term would have no force for They are not God to Each Other.

J.J. Is the expression "I AM" a relative term?

J.T. Yes. It is to remind us that it can apply to no one else but divine Persons. It would have no meaning as between Themselves because it applied to all, but it is to remind us that others have a beginning and They have not. It links on with absoluteness because it conveys eternal and unchangeable existence.

J.J. When the Lord said in John 8, "Before Abraham was, I am", He was referring to Himself alone, in a way?

J.T. I think so, yet the use of the expression would necessarily imply the Deity.

Ques. Why does it say, "To the name", not to the names "of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"? Is it in connection with what you are saying as to the absoluteness of God?

J.T. I think the singular would mean the unity of the Three; it is one God. You have something similar in Isaiah 9, "His name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace".

P.L. Would there be a suggestion of diversity of operations by these three Persons in the christian economy?

J.T. I suppose so. It is one idea, but diversity of operation as you get in 1 Corinthians 12. It is noticeable there that the Spirit comes first, showing that He has His own distinctive place in the operations.

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P.L. I was thinking it might bear on Matthew, being the church gospel, that the assembly is the vessel of those operations.

W.H.F. Do you speak of the term "God" as being relative?

J.T. Yes; the first mention we have of it is in Genesis 1.

W.H.F. Relative to creation and men.

J.T. It would have no force apart from that. It means the supreme Object of worship. It must be relative, that is to say, it was a name by divine teaching and the power of the Spirit which became current in the minds of men of faith.

W.H.F. I was thinking of the expression in Psalm 50, which J.N.D. gives in the note, 'El Elohim Jehovah'. Tracing back it would seem as though El, God, was an expression which extended beyond creation. He comes in as Elohim in creation.

J.T. Elohim is the first name we have historically. El is power, is it not?

P.L. When you speak of creation you are going back beyond verse 2 of Genesis 1, going back as far as we can and not simply to the bringing in of man?

J.T. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", that which Wisdom speaks of as "Before the earth was". That is as near as we can speak in terms. So that El Elohim Jehovah is a question of God's power.

Ques. When you speak of the name God being relative, do you mean that any name used in human language must be in a way relative? I suppose unless the idea that we connect with God is absolute, we would have to say that everything is relative. The name itself is a word in human language and is therefore expressed from man's point of view. It is really some absolute idea as far as it is possible for us to think of anything absolute.

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J.T. I am sure that is right. All we can say as to the absolute is that it is there. I cannot think in terms of absoluteness; it is beyond the creature, that is, to consider it apart from anything altogether but itself. I can apprehend God in supremacy, but what we call absolute we just know it is there.

Ques. I suppose the term 'absolute' -- the very word -- is in a way relative in the sense of being marked off from all that we generally call relative?

J.T. You mean it is really relative in that sense, but it is the weakness of human language. The two words are used in the sense in which we are speaking of them to convey as far as is possible that the Deity has to be that apart from all other considerations but Itself. As far as I see, we can hardly get out of the relative ourselves.

P.L. Really resulting in worship for the believer. We are in the presence of God, and does not that tone the worship of the saints?

J.T. Yes; you cannot express it. The Holy Spirit in us gives us expansion or power that no one can have who has not got the Spirit, but as far as I see, we can only think in terms of relativity; we cannot speak in terms of absoluteness.

J.J. Would you say that of love?

J.T. Love is what God is, and I think that is the link between the two. The Lord speaks of it Himself "Thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world" (John 17:24); it was there.

J.J. Whereas light is more relative?

J.T. Quite.

J.J. Are the beginning of Matthew and the end alike in that way? The Lord's first recorded movement was in the baptism, and now in the baptism of believers He brings forward the three Persons again. Is that the link?

J.T. I think that is a very good suggestion, bringing out what is in view in the gospel. It is not only

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God coming out in incarnation but entering into death. Therefore the basis is redemption.

Ques. Does not the expression in Psalm 90 rather suggest the absolute? "From eternity to eternity thou art God".

J.T. I suppose it does, but I do not know how far we can take in "Thou art God". No doubt the thought is there to assert His infinitude, but it is "from eternity to eternity", meaning that it is there beyond the furthest limits to which you can go in your mind; it is there. I think in that psalm it bears on others who are dying, and that a thousand years to Him is as one day, whereas our years are just three-score and ten. It is to bring out the smallness of man as over against God.

E.P. Is it not this infiniteness about divine Persons that makes us worship? Who can address divine Persons?

J.T. It bears on our worship, and I believe the Lord will use it in that way; there is something that you cannot express. Having the Holy Spirit we are really in touch with infinite Beings subjectively, but we never cease to be creatures nevertheless.

P.L. 'And see! the Spirit's power Has ope'd the heav'nly door, Has brought us to that favoured hour When toil shall all be o'er'.

J.N.D. says, 'There only to adore'; is that all in keeping?

J.T. There is a power in those who have the Spirit which exceeds any creature power; it is a divine Person in us.

W.H.F. "Filled even to all the fulness of God" (Ephesians 3:19); that would be the thought of worship, would it not?

J.T. Yes; the fulness of God would be revelation. You are filled into the idea of the Deity in Its absoluteness, only in revelation.

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P.L. So that the rays of light from the scene of light inaccessible have been brought into the sphere of revelation in that Person.

J.T. Well, quite. It is not that there is a barrier beyond which you cannot pass, but it is a question of inability and want of power. We may be strengthened by the Spirit of the Father in the inner man that we may be able -- in so far as we may be. We have a divine Person in us, and there is wonderful potentiality in that, but still, we never cease to be creatures and finite.

A.J.H.B. There must be limitation.

J.T. On that side, yes. "Whom no man has seen, nor is able to see". "Unapproachable" would not imply that God has barred us, but I think it is more the want of ability, not want of love on His side. Otherwise we should become infinite and be as gods.

J.J. Were the limitations felt by Paul after he became conscious that he was on earth again? He had been in the heavenly sphere where there were no limitations exactly.

J.T. Oh! there would be limitations there.

J.J. Not like they are here, I mean.

J.T. Of course 1 Corinthians 13 speaks of the great difference there will be; we shall know as we are known then.

J.J. Only he could not give expression here to what he saw there owing to the limited conditions.

J.T. It was "not allowed to man to utter", he said.

A.J.H.B. We shall not cease to be creatures in glory.

J.T. That is what I am thinking.

N.K.M. What is the force of the expression, "I shall know according as I also have been known" (1 Corinthians 13:12)?

J.T. I suppose you will have the full divine thought as to yourself, as you are known. If a man

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love God the same is known of Him. He knows you in that relation, so that you will have the full divine thought of yourself. We are very mixed now, are we not? That is all I can say about it.

A.J.H.B. It cannot be the same intense degree but rather the character of it; in degree you must be limited by being a creature.

J.T. It is a question of degree which seems to be characteristic of 1 and 2 Corinthians, the apostle holding out something greater in the distance at the end. They were making much of knowledge, what they knew, even in regard to one's motives, but he would not attempt to be sure about his own motives.

Ques. The verse does not mean that we shall know God as He knows us, but we shall have the full divine thought about ourselves?

J.T. I think so; everything will be seen clearly as it is.

P.W.D. It is in contrast to knowing in part, is it not?

J.T. Which marks the present time.

W.L. Would not the scene on the mount illustrate it? I was thinking the disciples knew Moses and Elias; they needed no introduction. Is it that character of knowledge?

J.T. That is helpful. I think I shall know Paul -- do you mean that?

W.L. I thought it was just that character of knowledge.

J.T. It presents the force of the word 'name' as applied to us. We shall know as we are known, which suggests much enjoyment. There is not the slightest suggestion that the disciples had to be introduced to Moses and Elias; they knew them.

Ques. It says in 1 Corinthians 8"To us there is one God, the Father". Does that rather imply that if we think of God or address God, we can only think of the Father rather than the idea of three Persons?

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J.T. I understand that to be the economy in which we are. It seems as if we are assisted in it to know how to speak to God -- "one God, the Father", and yet in speaking to Him there is the inscrutableness attaching to the Deity that you never lose sight of. Elsewhere the Son is said to be the true God, and we have to think as Scripture does. If it speaks of the Father, in the understanding of the economy there is also "one Lord, Jesus Christ", and I do not forget that the Deity is presented in the Son also, and then in the Spirit. But I think God has greatly considered for us, being finite, that we might know, as introduced into the wonderful realm of light, how to think without confusion.

E.R-n. Would you distinguish between addressing God and the Father in any way? Should we do both in any circumstances?

J.T. I should. If I were speaking about judgment and the like, I should not address the Father; He judges no one. Yet on the other hand, in the passage alluded to in 1 Corinthians 8, you have the full idea of God. Where you speak to God you can bring in judgment, for God judges -- or whether it be a question of creation. But then, if it is the "God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ", it is another line of thought; and if it is "Abba, Father", which the Holy Spirit teaches us to say at once, then it is a question of God Himself. I feel we are in a realm of infinitude, and we have to learn everything there, and if we do we shall have to speak in the terms of Scripture. It is a question of learning, the knowledge that arises from the thoughts of the environment.

P.L. Is that why John who treats so much of infinitude emphasises the way the Lord presents Himself as Teacher and the way love gives Him that place?

J.T. You mean the two disciples said to the Lord, "Rabbi, ... where abidest thou?"

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P.L. Then, "The teacher is come and calls thee", with Mary, and then, "Rabboni" -- Teacher, with Mary Magdalene. In each case they are on the threshold of something now in relation to that Person.

J.T. I think it is a line of progress. You recognise you have to learn everything from Christ; He is the Teacher. For instance, Luke would be concerned about public utterances in the assembly, and so the Lord is seen praying in a certain place and a disciple says to Him, "Teach us to pray". That is the idea; he saw the Lord and heard Him praying doubtless and he felt that he could not pray unless he were taught. How can I speak to a divine Person unless I am taught by a divine Person to do so?

E.P. Would you be free to say "Heavenly Father", seeing the Lord said it?

J.T. Well, you do not get it in the epistles, and I think we ought to learn from them. Coming into the divine realm and the school that attaches to it, so to speak, you begin with the epistles. The gospels really are confirmatory; if a person advances in the school he will know how to regard the gospels. They are from the divine standpoint; the Lord is seen there coming in and dealing with everything as it stood, so that they come in last in the educational course. Therefore, you do not find, for instance, the title "Son of Man" used in the epistles in an educational way. Stephen uses it, and it is quoted in Hebrews, but it is never used otherwise, and yet the Lord uses it about eighty times in regard of Himself. So as, in the course of education, I arrive at the gospels, I know how to regard that term, what is meant by it, and other terms. For instance, I do not believe the expression "kingdom of the heavens" which is common in Matthew is found in the epistles, but as I proceed in the course of instruction I know how to regard these terms; I do not mix them up; they have their setting, and you can see they are perfectly

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right and furnish light in the Lord's mouth in the gospels. They go wider than christianity; they cover everything which the epistles do not.

W.C. Is it comely for us to use the title "Father" without bringing in God? I mean, the Lord said, "When ye pray, say, Father". We do not get that in the epistles without God.

J.T. You do in Romans 8, by the Spirit, "whereby we cry, Abba, Father".

W.C. I mean, in actual prayers or praise. You have, for instance, "Blessed be the God and Father ...".

J.T. I believe that is so. But the Spirit in Galatians crying in us, "Abba, Father", and we crying by the Spirit, "Abba, Father", are enough to warrant anyone speaking to God as Father. We do in our hymns.

W.C. I was thinking of that.

E.R-n. In addressing God as God have you in mind all the Persons in the Godhead?

J.T. There you are again. I confess I think the thought is that you are only able to speak to one Person. It is God taking account of us in our limitations.

Eu.R. "To us there is one God, the Father"; would that bear it out?

J.T. Yes, but you are always affected by the sense of inscrutability. What there is behind that I cannot know.

P.W.D. When we pray, "God and Father", do we have in our minds first of all that we are creatures with God and then the position we have as sons with the Father?

J.T. I think that helps, but we must be careful there, for the Lord says, "My God and your God". It is not on the basis of creation in His case.

P.W.D. Then the Lord reversed it. He said first of all, "My Father and your Father", and then, "My

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God and your God". We could not begin that way, and say, 'Father and God'.

J.T. It is a question of what you find. Is there any form like that in the Scriptures? and why should I introduce forms? If others who are far superior have not done so, why should I?

P.W.D. So you would say, God and Father, and not, Father and God?

J.T. I should go by what is customary in the realm into which I am introduced.

J.J.T. Do we always take up the thought of creation in addressing God? Do we ever go beyond that?

J.T. I think so. The Lord Jesus spoke to Him as God: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" That did not refer to creation. He takes His place as Man. The word 'God' became known. Of course, the Spirit of God taught man to say it, other wise they could not say it rightly. They might have the thought, but they could not have it rightly. When Moses used it it was known, and no doubt he was Spirit-taught. We are not told how, but there it was.

J.J. In Ephesians 4:6 it says, "One God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all". Does that go out wider than christianity?

J.T. "In us all", I think, is christians.

J.J. But there is an extensive thought in it.

J.T. I think so. There it is in connection with the other concentric circles. It is the widest of the three. We are brought into a wonderful environment, and we have to learn what is there. It is not for us to introduce forms, they are all there.

J.J. The apostle uses the three Persons in the last verse of 2 Corinthians: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit". Why does he bring in God like

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that? God includes all the Persons and yet the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit are distinctly mentioned.

J.T. It is the same thought of the mediatorial or economical position. We cannot get round these things; we just accept the terms and bow to them; God has so ordered it. There is God, and 1 Corinthians 8 says, "To us there is one God, the Father", and Ephesians 4 says, "One God and Father of all". The other two Persons are viewed subordinately for wise purposes to make things effective, and you just accept it as it is.

F.F. The first expression of God in Matthew's gospel is connected with the Lord Himself, is it not? "They shall call his name Emmanuel, which is, being interpreted, 'God with us'". Has that any bearing on the latter part, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?

J.T. I suppose it would include the revelation of God. "God with us" would mean God was there in all the fulness of the Godhead. It says, "Thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins", and then Isaiah is quoted as to the Babe, that He should be called Emmanuel, "God with us".

F.F. It is interesting that Matthew quotes it as "They shall call his name Emmanuel". I wondered if it did not mean those intelligent persons who would go forth baptising. Isaiah says, "The virgin shall conceive and shall bring forth a son, and call his name Immanuel", but Matthew gives it as "they".

J.T. That is interesting, and I suppose we have to look backwards and see the force of it. Persons saw by what happened that God had visited His people. So the name was not arbitrary, but fully expressed in the Lord's history, and, of course, would enter into this formula here. Now in Isaiah 7 we have "Immanuel", meaning 'God with us', and in chapter 8, when the Assyrian attacks, the word is used again; the remnant is victorious because of

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Immanuel, that is to say, because God is with us. That is like the gospel, the presence of God makes us invincible.

Ques. I suppose the names should be used intelligently. I should like to ask why we speak so often to the Lord, and yet there is not more than one occasion that I can remember in Scripture where the Lord is addressed in prayer -- where the apostle besought the Lord thrice.

F.W.K. Acts 7 would be another instance.

J.J. And 2 Timothy 2; "Those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart".

J.T. There is plenty of ground for praying to the Lord, for He is in administration; things are committed into His hands, and it is quite evident we should go to Him about anything.

Ques. Would the word in 1 Timothy 2"the testimony to be rendered in its own times", connect with the scripture we have here?

J.T. I think so. Paul spoke about himself as a herald and teacher of the things, and that certainly enters into this passage.

Eu.R. What does it mean in John 16:23: "In that day ye shall demand nothing of me: verily, verily, I say to you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give you"?

J.T. I suppose it was to encourage them as to His going to the Father, that it would be a great gain to them.

A.J.G. Do the two chapters, John 14 and 16, warrant us in praying to the Lord and to the Father in relation to the Lord's interests down here?

J.T. "Ye believe in God, believe also in me".

A.J.G. Is there special blessing connected with addressing the Father in connection with the Lord's interests, because the Father loves those who love Him and His interests here? Is that the thought?

J.T. I think so.

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Ques. Is the Lord opening out the new economy to the disciples?

J.T. He seeks to make them conversant with the divine realm, and free to speak to the Father. It would specially give them an insight as to how matters stood, the wonderful environment in which they are set, to hear one divine Person speaking to another. They would be imbued with how to speak to God.

J.J. With regard to baptism, the end of Matthew seems to take it out of the local setting. It says, "Make disciples of all the nations". Most of us have thought that, speaking literally of baptisms, they should be done by persons in the locality.

J.T. There is nothing that I know to warrant that.

The idea of baptism is not local. There is only one baptism: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism".

J.J. Perhaps we have been tied up with this local idea and been rather afraid to have anyone from another place to do such a thing.

J.T. But there is another thing, whether I ask another person in order to distinguish me or my child.

J.J. You would not confine it to local persons only?

J.T. If anyone should say it should be a local brother, I should say that is not scriptural at all, but at the same time to ask a brother from a distance to add distinction to me is another thing.

Eu.R. Is that what you mean by environment, that baptism introduces the believer into the sphere where divine Persons are known by these names?

J.T. It is a wonderful environment of light. They had been in thick darkness in the Old Testament, but now They are in the light.

A.J.H.B. Did that await the incarnation which was necessary before this economy could be set up?

J.T. Exactly, and the word 'baptism' would mean it was on the ground of redemption. But what

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an environment it is! We are born physically into a wonderful environment, but what do I know about it? What does a child know about it? It has to learn everything. What does it know about the great bodies in the firmament? Then when it is a question of the divine environment -- I am born into that, too.

Eu.R. Does the making disciples suggest it is only those who are teachable who are brought into the environment?

J.T. Persons in this environment are not only taught but made, and that is by the influence that you have. You are yourself to be the thing that is to be there. It is the idea of addition, that there is no difference from what is there.

J.J. So the word "Emmanuel" seems to cover the last sentence: "And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age".

J.T. Very good. What a comfort that is! "God with us"; it is no less than that.

Ques. What relation would Acts 19 have with this, in connection with the baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus?

J.T. It is just the one Person as over against John. They had known the baptism of John, and hearing Paul's words, they were baptised "to the name of the Lord Jesus". In chapter 10 it is "in the name of the Lord", as invoking His protection and power.

I like to use the expression in Acts 19, because it involves protection, but "to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" is distinctly objective -- as a realm of light.

Ques. Would you say that these names here -- the Father, Son and Holy Spirit -- imply the limitations, that we cannot go further?

J.T. I think that is how the thing stands. It is really one Name, but it is broken up here -- Father, Son and Spirit. They are not difficult terms. The Old Testament enlarges spiritually on the idea of a

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father: "If then I be a father", God says. It enlarges, too, on the idea of a son, and the idea of spirit is also made very clear. So those are not names that are beyond us; we can see the idea of the name of God in them.

A.J.G. Do you mean in the Old Testament God sets out something of the idea connected with these names before He was actually made known by this name?

J.T. So the education was there. The idea of sonship is made very clear in the Old Testament, in Abraham and Isaac especially, and throughout you get the idea of these things. So when God takes them on Himself, they are indelible; He has already taught His people and we should not think them any different from what they were before.

J.J.T. Is not one reason why we baptise to the Lord and pray to Him because the whole sphere of the testimony at the moment is in His hands, and He is the One who has been here to express all that God is?

J.T. "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand". He is in the full position of administration, and it is quite simple to speak to Him.

P.L. Does it not encourage us to see what these divine Persons have done in the economy of grace Themselves, coming within our range and limitation for our contemplation?

J.T. It is God's consideration for us, although we are in the place of children, in the place of learning.

P.L. And that these Persons, the Lord Jesus and the Spirit, without ceasing eternally to be who They are, are pleased to operate in service to us in the sphere in which we are found which is marked by limitation.

J.T. They have come into Their own creation, and then the Lord Jesus has come in a smaller way

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still, into Manhood. Luke 15 is a fine illustration of the different Ones -- the Shepherd is going after the lost sheep, the woman is sweeping the house, and the Father is running. That is the Deity, the Trinity in grace; They are all in unison and in perfect keeping with the incarnation. So the Lord says, "My Father worketh hitherto". All that was in view of incarnation; God leaving the absoluteness of Deity to serve. "My Spirit shall not always plead with Man" was God in the Spirit taking a lowly place, urging men against their wills, and yet keeping at it.

Eu.R. It helps as to the way F.E.R. used to speak so much of God coming down into the place of death and testimony. If we did not see that the name "God" was relative, we could not understand that.

J.T. It is very beautiful. It is not that the three Persons entered into death, but there They were in the Spirit in the thing. "Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God". I think the more we rest in the realm into which we are introduced, our souls become imbued with the right thoughts. Of course there is that verse, 1 Timothy 3:16, "And confessedly the mystery of piety is great. God has been manifested in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit, has appeared to angels, has been preached among the nations, has been believed on in the world, has been received up in glory". The generally accepted meaning is that it was God, and it is God; it is a question of piety which is God. You cannot say that God died, of course, because you are forbidden by the instruction that is in the realm into which you are introduced; you know what to say. But if the natural mind is allowed in as it were, all these terms are the outcome, which is theology. That is, you drop down from the level of the Spirit of God. They had to do something, and these terms have been developed and have entered into the confession

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of faith. But the Holy Spirit alone can give us right thoughts and right words and terms.

Eu.R. So this teaching is going on all the time in that realm.

J.T. Yes. Of course, we are not in the days of the inauguration; the Holy Spirit is not introducing terms now, but you take up what is there.

P.L. Then contemplatively as in John who is the great product for us of the reposeful spirit in this realm, he himself having known the Person here so intimately. He seems to present the Lord so much at issue with the Jews. Do you think it is to save us from the theological darkness and the terms which would deprive us of this light in the present day? Had he in mind the whole dispensation?

J.T. That is very beautiful. What delight he had He lived to be an old man, according to the records, and he is presented to us as a man of great activity, but he was a man able to be at rest in the bosom of Jesus, and he leaned on His breast, too. Then he had the great advantage of Mary the Lord's mother in his home as his own mother. What a region of thought she would have that he would drink into!

J.J. You have said that the sisters are not functioning in localities as they should. Could you enlarge on that a little?

J.T. There again we come back to what we were saying. We have to learn from Scripture the place they have. They acquired a great place at the resurrection, but that was not by appointment, but by their energy of affection; that is the way they come into things. Mary was selected to be the Lord's mother; she was equal to it morally, and she came into that great place. In Luke 1 she is not said to be filled with the Spirit, as the others. It is attributed to her in intelligence. Of course, she was filled with the Spirit as the others, or she could not have spoken as she did. She spoke with the intelligence of a

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priest, as inwardly distinguishing between the features of her being, her soul and spirit. So that the great place they get -- they have a greater place at the resurrection of our Lord than the men -- is by their energy of affection. That is how sisters come into usefulness in the assembly.

Ques. Does that suggest that their functioning depends upon headship in a peculiar way, that they are there by affection and that they are subject to the Lord personally?

J.T. Just so. The idea of the assembly ought to be seen in them pre-eminently, because they are so constituted as to be more ready to lay hold of thoughts without words. That is the idea of headship, that you lay hold of the idea without words.

P.W.D. Was there any difference between those women and those who ministered to the Lord of their substance during His life?

J.T. One of them was Mary Magdalene. She was pre-eminently the woman of resurrection, and is the one that gets the Lord's mind. What comes out with her is the inward ability to move spiritually -- turning round, and the expression of feeling.

This passage in Matthew is very encouraging for the last days, although it applies directly to the beginning. It was a broken state of things; it says in verse 16, "But the eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they did homage to him: but some doubted. And Jesus coming up spoke to them, saying, All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth". He does not say a word about the doubting nor about the broken number -- the eleven, but He goes on, "All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations" -- in spite of your broken number. The point in Matthew is to go on.

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P.C. Does it suggest the necessity for baptism, to distinguish between the actual baptism and the place the Lord has in power?

J.T. If there were not that power what could baptism do? Peter brings it in: "Not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the demand as before God of a good conscience, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being subjected to him". It is the power that is available in the realm into which you are introduced.

P.C. It would suggest the place the Lord occupies now. It would not give room to John's baptism.

J.T. It would be a retrogression to baptise to John's baptism. As was remarked, with Paul it was "baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus", as over against that.

A.J.H.B. Does it bring in the thought of leadership, in the way you are introduced into that place where the Lord was leading in the power of resurrection? "All were baptised unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea". It seems to bring you into all the good of what is established.

P.L. And in the wilderness it is called for particularly. So in Matthew there is great force on the word "all power", whatever may be against us.

Rem. It says in Acts 14:21: "Having made many disciples". Is not that the only case where it is recorded, and that after the power of resurrection was evident in Paul?

J.T. That is a concrete case. I suppose the greatest test that can be applied is whether one can make a disciple, because it refers to your influence -- what you are yourself, as well as your preaching.

P.L. "My ways ... in Christ". Did that make Timothy a disciple?

J.T. Quite so; he had known them.

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Eu.R. Is completion suggested in this as well as inauguration -- "the completion of the age"? Does it suggest there is sufficient power to go on in spite of the brokenness?

J.T. That is what I think we ought to see. There was a broken number and some of them doubted, but the Lord says nothing about those things.

Eu.R. "I am with you all the days". It would bring it down to our day.

J.T. It would. It is like David's remark to the priest: "What is under thy hand?" (1 Samuel 21:3). What have you got in the house? Whatever is there, it can be used, however weak and broken the conditions. "All power is given unto me", and you go and make disciples of all the nations.

Ques. Was that power given to the Lord in resurrection? Was He referring to any point of time, or is it a general statement?

J.T. It is a general statement. In John 3 it says, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand". I think it is properly His position in heaven, and the Holy Spirit here is the answer to it.

Ques. Do you think the fixed principles of which you have spoken recently enter into Matthew, the Lord with us in the maintenance of those things to the end?

J.T. Indeed. This is the public economy. I think John's gospel gives you more the spiritual side. So that the Lord says, "All power has been given me". In John, He sits at the well and says to the woman, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water". That is the sort of thing that John introduces -- the gift of the Spirit.

A.J.H.B. Sometimes in times of trouble and difficulty we have been almost afraid of anybody coming into fellowship with us. Do you not think it

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encourages us to go on although things may be broken? The Lord will see things through.

J.T. He will see us through to the end.

A.J.H.B. We are leaving our children a greater heritage than we had ourselves.

J.T. You set them marching round Jericho. I think maybe the Name is coming into evidence more than ever. We have that expression in the Old Testament, "Shall the enemy contemn thy name for ever?" Psalm 74:10. It is this verse.

J.J. It is remarkable how in Isaiah the three Persons of the Godhead are referred to: "The Spirit of Jehovah": "Doubtless thou art our Father"; and "the Lord am thy Saviour". It was all underlying that, I suppose.

J.T. It was to the Israelites primarily, implying that this thing was there.

Ques. Would it be right to say that God allowed additions to be made to His name in the Old Testament, such as "Jehovah-jireh" and "Jehovah-shalom", after certain experiences that the saints had?

J.T. Yes, right through.

P.L. It is a kind of salutation experimentally in the light God has given to the soul.

J.T. Yes. There are no such additions now. There is nothing beyond "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". Of course, we have in Revelation names the Lord takes up in keeping with the book, such as "The Amen" and "The first and the last".

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FEATURES OF THE TESTIMONY IN THE LIGHT OF THE TRANSLATION OF THE ASSEMBLY

2 Kings 2:5 - 14

J.T. I have before me the present movements of the Lord by the Spirit in the light of translation to heaven. The idea of the assembly's translation, as in accord with the Lord's ascension, has been current for a long time amongst the people of God; the Lord would bring it before us and keep us moving in that light, going over the ground of the testimony in its different features. As we take up any one of the features we always find something fresh. The ground that may have been covered before will always yield something fresh if covered again in the Lord's company. We have in this book (chapter 1: 2) the significant fact that one man falls irretrievably. "Ahaziah fell down"; there is no recovery for him, and another ascends, as it says, "When Jehovah would take up Elijah into the heavens by a whirlwind", chapter 2: 1. These are two most significant facts in this book -- the irretrievable ruin of one man by his fall, and the elevation of another by the power of God into heaven.

N.K.M. It looks as though the feelings of God entered into the taking up of Elijah; it says, "Jehovah would take up Elijah". Is that significant?

J.T. Yes; it was a note of determination or decision on the part of God. It had long been in mind, there is no variation in the mind of God, He would do it. What He has indicated as regards His people will come about. The time of our transference to heaven is drawing near, and this passage would indicate that there is to be no relinquishment of energy but rather an increase of energy in going over and covering the ground of the testimony.

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H.F.N. Would you tell us what is the difference between Enoch's translation and Elijah's translation?

J.T. I think Elijah's translation is more figurative of the Lord's ascension. Elijah is a public man, answering to the Lord's own testimony, and what is in keeping with it; but Enoch is a disciplined man as his name signifies. It would denote the kind of man he was, and what befits us now, to be in obscurity. He walked with God after his son was born, and this is a very important matter for us today, because at the end of the dispensation the family side, the household side, is accentuated. It behoves parents to walk with God in view of the conditions in the world, so that we should not leave our children behind. It would appear that Methuselah did not come into the deluge, although he died almost the day before, showing there must have been an answer to Enoch's faith in walking with God after his son was born. The children of the saints seem to have been specially in the mind of God in recent times. The enemy would seek to rob God of victory in the households, but God will not allow it; as Moses said in Egypt, "We will go with our young and with our old", and then "our cattle also must go with us; there shall not a hoof be left behind". I believe Enoch's translation enters into that side. He has the testimony before his translation that he pleased God personally. There is nothing about his public testimony, although it must have been there; he pleased God and he walked with God. But Elijah is a great public man; he stands for that side. God gives us no account as to where he got his training; he just appears abruptly and the power is there at once. He stands out as a great public man for God, and now God would take him up. What do you say to that?

H.F.N. I think that is very helpful.

J.T. It is not that we want to be public. No one who loves God desires to be public; the spirit of

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christianity is the reverse of that, we would be out of sight, but the testimony may require that some may become public, or become known, and Elijah represents that side. There is not much publicity now in regard of the testimony. Those who are going on in it are hidden away, but there may be something of the "unknown, and well known" of 2 Corinthians 6:9, and God would honour that, as He honoured Elijah.

H.F.N. Have you in view the last features of the testimony?

J.T. Yes, the last features, without saying anything of what Elisha represented afterwards, but just confining ourselves to the idea of translation to heaven by the power of God, and what goes on in view of it.

There is to be no slackening of energy, but going over the ground of what might be called the features of the testimony; because each of these places denotes something specific.

E.J.McB. Do you understand that, in view of our translation, we ought to go over the ground of the testimony ourselves?

J.T. I believe so. Meetings such as this, and larger and more general ones, are occasions when the Lord is with us to bring out some features of the testimony. You will observe it does not say that Elisha went with Elijah but that "Elijah went with Elisha", suggesting that Elisha moved himself; it was not that Elijah told him to move first, but "Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal". Very much like "Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them". The Lord is there to help us to bring out something.

E.J.McB. Would Enoch be more a question of the faith side and Elijah the Spirit side?

J.T. Just so. This is the public effect. The previous chapter shows what a man Elijah was. He was well known even to the king. The king would not

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know anything about us. Ahaziah had sent messengers to Baal-zebub the god of Ekron to enquire whether he would recover of his disease, but the angel of the Lord tells Elijah to meet the messengers of the king of Samaria and say to them, "Is it because there is not a God in Israel, that thou sendest to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron?" When the messengers tell the king what Elijah had said, the king asks them, "What manner of man was he that came up to meet you?" and they tell him, "He was a man in a hairy garment, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite". He is well known; he is known by his garments. That is what comes out here, a public man known by the marks of a servant of God, suitably attired in accord with the time.

N.K.M. What do the garments suggest?

J.T. Self-denial, and John the baptist corresponds with this. It says Elijah was "a man in a hairy garment, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins". These were the marks of identification. The king had no doubt about it; he knew it was Elijah.

F.K. Does it bear on the public position at that time?

J.T. Yes; the matter required this kind of garment. John the baptist's time required extreme separation and self-denial, he was a man wholly outside the claims of nature in the power of the Spirit of God. If we do not wear the garments we are not known. If we wear other garments we are in a dangerous position; these garments would save us.

H.F.N. Do you regard chapter 2 as education in view of the formation of the vessel for the Lord's coming?

J.T. Yes; the continuance of the testimony, the idea of formation. The Lord would have us instructed in the fulness of the testimony in view of translation.

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We do not want to be ignorant when the Lord takes us away; we want to be instructed.

H.F.N. Will you give us an outline of the main features that are in your mind?

J.T. The first thing to notice is the movement from Gilgal, that is the starting point. Gilgal has a great place in the history of the testimony from Joshua's time; it was where the twelve stones taken up out of the bed of the river Jordan were set up; and it was where the reproach of Egypt was rolled away in connection with circumcision the second time.

Gilgal is the place which denotes self-judgment by the Spirit, as it says, "the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of the Christ", Colossians 2:11. It is one of the features of spiritual geography, corresponding somewhat with Luke 19 and the corresponding scriptures in the other gospels where the ass is tied. It illustrates the idea of spiritual geography.

If I am not living in that I shall be living in the ordinary environment as regards either myself or my children, and in view of what we have been saying as to the households, this geography should be known; we ought to be conversant with it. If we are not in this, we shall live in the ordinary environment of the world, and be governed by the features that govern the ordinary course of this world. It may not be in a bad sense, but if, for instance, I have the university, the social, or the business circle prominently in my mind, it will give character to the household, and the children will not be held in the right relation but in relation to the world. But if the household is held on the principle of faith, this kind of geography is in mind always, and the children will be brought up in that environment. However little it may enter into them, they will not forget it in after years; it is bound to come back to them. Gilgal evidently is the starting point: "the circumcision of the Christ", the cutting off of the flesh, the denial of the flesh.

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The reproach of Egypt is rolled away at Gilgal, and any marks of the world there are a disgrace.

E.J.S. Would it correspond to having the interests of Christ paramount in our households rather than anything in connection with this world?

J.T. That is what I was thinking; we go over the features of it. Our morning readings, and the like, are not stereotyped, but we go over the ground. It is important to go over the ground. Abraham was told to "walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it", Genesis 13:17. It is a good thing to "walk about Zion" -- to move about on the principle of faith.

T.H. Do you mean walking about in connection with what God has brought to light in the death and resurrection of His beloved Son?

J.T. Quite so. There are a variety of features, and the land is very extensive. It is to be traversed throughout. Moses was shown it, and Abraham and Isaac walked through it. I think Abraham is the first one with whom we find this kind of spiritual environment; he lived in relation to Bethel, one of the most prominent features of it.

W.P. Is there any significance in the fact that Elijah, with Elisha, in passing by these historical places, was on his way out of the land in contrast to Israel of old, who, when at Gilgal, were on their way into the land?

J.T. If we take it up dispensationally, I suppose it would be the Lord leaving the Jewish order of things and going out; as a matter of fact, He suffered without the gate, but these places each had their spiritual meaning. I think the Lord's journey from Galilee to Jerusalem had a somewhat similar bearing.

W.P. In John 10 the Lord compasses Jordan.

J.T. Yes, and that was after the Jews surrounded Him; as much as to say, It is all over now, I cannot go any further on these lines; then He crossed the

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Jordan to the place where John baptised at first. He began over again, which would have christianity in view. Looked at dispensationally that is how it works out.

W.P. When Elijah passed through these places on his way out of the land, was it not to show that everything connected with God's ways with Israel had fallen through, but that God was going to maintain things in spite of the failure of the people?

J.T. Quite so. All these things would be taken up in spiritual power through Elisha, but they have their significance and correspond with what we have now in a spiritual way on the principle of faith. Christianity is the dispensation of faith. If I am living personally and householdly on the principle of faith, I shall take these things up and go over them. They are suggestive of the immensity of the field to be covered today in the realm of faith.

G.J.E. Must we start from Gilgal?

J.T. That is where the Lord starts with us. He loves to see us take the step ourselves, and He is with us from that point. Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal; it would have been dangerous to go otherwise. If He goes with you the thing will be maintained throughout and the other points will be reached.

G.J.E. Is it a test that comes to Elisha?

J.T. It is to bring out just where he was -- what was going on in him. The Lord would bring out what is in us. The work of God is the great thing, and it shows itself in its testing; it shines here in the fact that Elisha would not stay in any place without Elijah.

P.H. Is it a question of the spirit of Elisha in his desire to be with Elijah and to get a double portion of his spirit?

J.T. I think it brings out the trustworthiness of Elisha, because he was coming into a place of immense

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responsibility and was he equal to it? How was he to qualify? Was it in him? The work of God may be going on in us but it is tested. The work of God is always true to itself. If it is not in us we shall not answer to the test and we shall be exposed. Elisha qualifies right through.

N.K.M. It came out in what he said in answer to his first test -- "As Jehovah liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee!" His faith was connected with a living system of things.

J.T. That is it. It is an important matter. Peter said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". We have in this book the idea of a believer taking the initiative and God being with him. Faith is tested in that way. The four lepers (2 Kings 7:4) were in a predicament. It was a question of life and death. What were they to do? And so they reasoned the thing out as a believer ought to do. You say, the Lord will show me. But you are a subject of the work of God, and there should be something in you to give you the power of initiative. The work of God is such an important matter that He would test it. I do not require divine guidance to take a breath. It is necessary for me to breathe and I do it. So here it is a question of the work of God in me, so that if I am in a position of stress not knowing what to do, I have to realise that God has given me faculties to be used. So the four lepers say, "Why sit we here until we die?" That is negative but it is light. There is light in what is negative. "If we say, We will enter into the city, then the famine is in the city, and we shall die there". That is also light. Then they say, "Let us fall unto the host of the Syrians: if they save us alive we shall live; and if they kill us, we shall but die". So they decided thus, and as they went into the camp of the Syrians God worked powerfully. That is what this book brings out: the effect of the work of God. As we take the initiative God is

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with us. Elisha leaving Gilgal is evidently taking the right initiative, for Elijah goes with him. He never faltered; he went right across the Jordan and came back again. A wonderful experience to go over twice!

N.K.M. The sons of the prophets seem to be in great contrast; they had light but did not move in relation to it.

J.T. They knew that Jehovah would take up Elijah; they had learnt it from others; they were not in it, though not exactly opposed, but subsequently they become infidel and would mislead even Elisha. They were a dangerous class, yet there are potentialities in them, and some of them may develop well.

But this movement from Gilgal is an important matter in that it is known that Elijah is with Elisha.

E.J.M. Does this question of abiding here answer somewhat to the challenge to the Colossians: "If ye then be risen with Christ", Colossians 3:1? You were speaking of the work of God being challenged in connection with Elisha, and the Spirit of God challenges the work of God in a believer; if that is so, certain results follow.

J.T. I think that is right. Colossians is on the ground of the work of God, not like Romans and Corinthians where it is principles that govern us externally, though, of course, the Spirit is in them.

But the work of God is in view in Colossians, and the Spirit is only mentioned once. That means He is putting forward His work in us, and that is tested by the teaching of the epistle. Is that what you mean?

E.J.M. Yes; Elijah did not anticipate that Elisha would stop though he put the challenge to him.

J.T. Nor did he wish him to stop; he would have been very grieved had he done so.

P.H. He tells him where he is going, to Bethel.

J.T. That is good; there is some incentive in that. Bethel has a great place historically. It is one

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of the earliest spiritual geographical points. It is where Abraham was, the house of God. Of course it could not be anything else than an abstract principle in the Old Testament, but now it is a question of the saints. Some young christian may say, I never saw the house of God, I never felt it, I was never in it. But if you love the Lord and His people you will be interested in this movement proposed by Elijah. Elisha went down with Elijah. Elijah had said, 'I am going to Bethel'. If you have never seen the house of God or been in it, go now, and the Lord will show you the way. If you want to get to these points, the Lord will go with you.

N.K.M. Elijah said, "Jehovah has sent me to Bethel".

J.T. It is imperative for every young christian to go there, and to understand something of the house of God.

H.F.N. How would you regard the difference in experience between touching Bethel as Jacob touched it, and Elisha's experience in going there with Elijah?

J.T. I think all that Genesis affords enters into this, because it is a question of spiritual geography, so that I must think of the whole history of the place and go back to Abraham and learn from him. Abraham was there; he went a long way off from it, down into Egypt, and he was told to come back, and there he reared up an altar. That was the great expression of the work of God in him, when he reared up an altar. Then when we come to Jacob he would teach us more about it. He would tell us how he went away for twenty years, and had a sorrowful time, and that when he should have come back he went to Shechem, and his household got into disgrace there. That is what Jacob would teach me, to go to Bethel and to bring up my children in relation to the house of God, so that they will not be strangers in it. You can understand how this would be in the

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mind of Elijah; he would dwell on these facts with Elisha.

H.F.N. It is most encouraging. The divine thought increases and enlarges at every phase of the history.

J.T. Then the next point is Jericho. It says, "Elijah said to him, Elisha, abide here, I pray thee; for Jehovah has sent me to Jericho". Some young christian here may say, Jericho represents the world. It was well walled when the children of Israel went into the land and Rahab lived on the wall; a person with a very poor reputation. But that is not what occupied the minds of Elijah and Elisha in Jericho. It is said of Jericho that the Lord Himself entered and passed through it. What would have been in His mind when He did that? The history of Joshua would be in His mind, and so I think it would be in the minds of Elijah and Elisha. It was a question of the great power of God in the ark, the Person of Christ, the way the ark was carried round every day by the priests. The question of the Person of Christ is what the Lord is engaging us with now: what a Person He is, who He is! Although He came into such small circumstances, He never lost His personality; He was always what He is. So that Jericho came down; and that is one of the greatest things for us, to apprehend the Person of Christ as the ark of the testimony and what is effected by Him, so that without a word being spoken the world comes down -- before that the walls fall flat.

W.B. Is it something of what comes out in Luke 19, where they say, "Blessed the King that comes in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest"?

J.T. It is something like that: the Lord going into His capital in the greatness and glory of His Person, and the environment that was there. The Pharisees wanted Him to rebuke His disciples. We

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often find the enemy seeking to get the Lord to rebuke His disciples, as Balaam would get the Lord to curse His people. But the Lord would never be moved against His disciples by the Pharisees; He will not rebuke those who love Him, at the behest of the Pharisees. "Rebuke thy disciples", they say to Him. What a thrust against Himself that He should alter a state of things like that! The multitude of His disciples were praising Him; it was not the mere shout of a crowd; it was intelligent praise; they did not say, 'peace on earth', but "peace in heaven". It was a priestly touch. They knew what they were saying. Peace on earth was deferred, but peace in heaven was assured; the Pharisees wanted the Lord to rebuke His disciples, but the Lord said, "If these shall be silent the stones will cry out". That is the situation. It is the presence of the Person and the suited environment.

L.B. On the seventh day the ark was carried round Jericho seven times. Would that correspond to the prominence given to His Person in the present day?

J.T. Yes, the thing has become more intense; instead of slackening, the Lord would call upon us to be more intense, especially as regards Himself, because the world comes down on those lines.

E.J.S. What particular phase of the world would Jericho give us?

J.T. I think it is the world in its ramifications. In the rebuilding of it, God was shut out. There was a curse attached to the rebuilding of it. It was rebuilt in Ahab's time, and the thought of that would be in the mind of Elijah.

E.J.M. It is striking that this book starts with the revival of Moab. Moab gets out of hand; the family conditions get beyond control, which really means the revival of Jericho.

J.T. I should like to hear more about it.

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E.J.M. Do you not think there is now a very serious form of opposition to Christ? More serious exercises come from those who have been brought up in the light, and have turned away from it, than from people in the world.

J.T. All the more reason for keeping our families in hand. It is very marked how insistent the Lord is as to the households.

P.H. I was thinking of John 12, "Now is the judgment of this world". Is it not in that chapter that we get such wonderful family conditions exhibited at the beginning, and everything in that chapter moves towards the Lord? Would that be parallel with the falling down of the walls of Jericho? -- "Now is the judgment of this world".

J.T. I think so. We see the moral weight that Lazarus had. Family conditions were set up at Bethany and Lazarus had moral weight, and enters into the power of the overthrow, so that the fact that he was risen became an item of faith.

E.J.S. Would you say that faith and an appreciation of the greatness of Christ are two great principles which should enable us to overcome these things that Jericho represents?

J.T. Yes, the place that Christ has personally as the Ark and the holiness that belongs to it; then the priesthood and the military service, all under perfect control, no noise, no bustle, no natural effort, all in perfect order. What a spectacle to the Jerichoites! They would say, What do these people mean? they are not saying anything. What is that they are carrying? It must have seemed most mysterious to them. And so it went on and on for the whole period. Then on the last day they went around seven times. It became more intense. The whole position was a mystery. That is Colossians exactly. The mysterious things are hidden, but they are

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powerful, and capable by the mighty power of God of overthrowing strongholds.

G.J.E. Would you say that in the spiritual life of a christian we all have to come to Gilgal before we can go out in testimony to the world? Do we not learn in the house of God how to carry the ark?

J.T. We see how it is maintained inside. No one can carry the ark who has not gone into the holiest to see how it is regarded before God. It is as I come out of the house in testimony that Christ has His place.

G.J.E. Perhaps we have not all followed this order. As a young man I tried to knock down the walls of Jericho with my own weight without going to Bethel, but we must go in before we can come out.

J.T. I think that is very suggestive. There has been much evangelical activity in the past; place has been given to music, oratory, money, etc., without any reference to the ark or the house of God, because the start has not been at Gilgal.

W.P. Therefore we see popular evangelisation and the world going on together.

J.T. All these evangelical societies have merged into the world; not that we accuse anybody, but it is important to have our eyes opened.

H.F.N. You have been speaking about the house holds. Would it enter into Elijah's soul how Jericho had been burned with fire but certain things had been gathered out of the city -- silver and gold, vessels of copper and iron? Would Bartimaeus give us copper and Zacchaeus gold? Would they be vessels saved out of Jericho?

J.T. Yes. Rahab gives us the idea of these precious metals mentioned, alluding to the work of God. We have to understand them spiritually. Rahab is representative of the work of God, she is the only one personally mentioned; but applying it to the antitype, there is much precious metal, alluding

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to what there is for God, so that we can well face the position. If the world is brought down by our testimony we shall not be without spoil; there will be converts. There must be spoil for every bit of the world that I bring down.

Rem. So that the four lepers you referred to went into tents of the Syrians and carried out spoil, and then they went back and made it known.

J.T. Yes; that is the idea. It is a question of the work of God. So with the battle with the Midianites in the book of Numbers, these very things were brought out -- things that went through the fire, the evidence of the work of God. So that it is not only what is negative in bringing down the world; we are getting something and there is something for God.

A.P. Is your thought that the walls of Jericho had to come down that Rahab might remain?

J.T. Yes, Rahab represents the idea; she remains in Israel to this day; there is the idea of continuance "to this day". She represents what accrues to God. As the Lord entered and passed through Jericho He got a son of Abraham in Zacchaeus.

H.R. Do we get the two sides put together in John 12:31, 32: "Now is the judgment of this world" and "I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me"?

J.T. Exactly. God has His part.

W.M.B. What is the idea in the rebuilding of Jericho?

J.T. The revival of the world in Christendom, or even in a Christian household. Any revival of the world where it has once been overthrown will come under the curse of God.

Rem. And it was a Bethelite who rebuilt it.

J.T. That is very significant; it is a man who has a reputation, like the pope or the archbishop -- men who are characteristically leaders of the public religious system, they rebuild Jericho.

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Rem. Would you say in an individual way such a man loses his own family? The man who rebuilt Jericho lost his whole family in it, his firstborn when the foundations were laid and the youngest when the gates were set up.

J.T. That is very solemn in connection with the household matter we have been speaking of.

N.K.M. Is not the expression "they two went on" very important?

J.T. It is very beautiful, I think, "Abide here, I pray thee; for Jehovah has sent me to the Jordan. And he said, As Jehovah liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee! And they two went on". It is very grand: they are in association now.

W.B. "And they two stood by the Jordan".

J.T. "They two went on" and "they two stood by the Jordan". I think, as has already been remarked, we should pay special attention to the fact that Elijah says, "Jehovah has sent me to the Jordan". It is a question of the will of God. "Jehovah would take up Elijah", and He would that he went to those places with Elisha. It is what God is doing, pending the great event, moving with us to these places to make us conversant with them.

H.F.N. If we miss this last point we shall miss what is distinctly for Christianity.

J.T. Yes, we shall come short. It is like Colossians, presenting every man perfect, that is going the whole way. "They two stood by the Jordan". That is the position we want to come to, to stand by it. "And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, and they two went over on dry ground".

That is association with Christ. You stand together. We are quickened together with Him.

N.K.M. "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

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J.T. That is the question. "And it came to pass when they had gone over, that Elijah said to Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I am taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so to thee; but if not, it shall not be so. And it came to pass as they went on, and talked". I think we ought to notice this beautiful thought of intimacy -- they talked -- "that behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire; and they parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the heavens. And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father! the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof! And he saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own garments and rent them in two pieces. And he took up the mantle of Elijah which fell from him, and went back and stood by the bank of the Jordan; and he took the mantle of Elijah which had fallen from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is Jehovah, the God of Elijah? He also smote the waters, and they parted hither and thither, and Elisha went over" (verse 9 - 14).

C.V. What would the mantle suggest?

J.T. I think it is the external side. It would be typical of Christ in the gospels. Notice that the mantle fell; it comes on us, not as He was here, it is what comes from Him as ascending. It denotes the power that we have which marked Him.

E.J.S. So that is this last part of the journey, death, resurrection and ascension with Christ?

J.T. Yes, it is being quickened with Him, and then the being it yourself, acting yourself as He acted, so that you yourself go over. This is a question of going through the thing experimentally.

E.J.S. So that your suggestion is that we should move in connection with the work of God so that we do not hinder it.

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J.T. That is what marks the present time. It is what He is doing; He is working universally and the spiritual movements of His people bring the work of God to light. I think that is the setting of this chapter.

P.H. Would the thing in principle be the same as the putting off and the putting on in Colossians 3? It says Elisha rent his own garments and took up the mantle of Elijah.

J.T. Yes, that is the idea. He saw Elijah go up, "and he cried ... the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof ... . Then he took hold of his own garments and rent them in two pieces. And he took up the mantle of Elijah". He never lost that thought of "the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof"; as he was about to die it came to light in the king's mouth (2 Kings 13:14).

E.J.M. What does it mean, "the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof"? Is it the symbol of victory?

J.T. It means all the power of God operating in Israel; not now simply operating in Christ Himself, but operating in the saints. The power of God as in Colossians and Ephesians -- "according to the power that worketh in us". That is the idea. There is nothing new brought in, in that way, it is "the power that worketh in us".

H.F.N. Would it correspond to Paul's word to Timothy -- "God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion"? Is it more a military thought?

J.T. Yes, it is a military thought. It is the power that works in us. Elijah asks for a double portion, and that is the form it takes, this military feature, because of what they had to deal with in the nations around them.

N.K.M. Is that what we get in Colossians"Walk worthily of the Lord ... strengthened with all

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power according to the might of his glory unto all endurance and longsuffering with joy", Colossians 1:10, 11?

J.T. Exactly. It is the power that works in you. I am praying with a sense of that, that God might operate in me.

Rem. At the end of Luke He led the disciples out as far as to Bethany and then they returned to Jerusalem; is it in that power they return?

J.T. Yes. They would not have done that if they had not come in contact with heaven; they would have waited until the next day. It denotes the energy there was.

Ques. "Thou hast asked a hard thing"; is it the thought of the sufferings of Christ and the cost to God?

J.T. I suppose so. God loves us to be insistent in asking great things.

Rem. "Jehovah hath done great things for us", Psalm 126:3.

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DIVINE MEASUREMENTS

Romans 12:3; 2 Corinthians 10:12 - 18; Ephesians 4:11 - 13; Revelation 11:1, 2

My subject, as you will doubtless have divined, is 'measure', and I hope in the Lord that it may be used for the profit of all. In 2 Corinthians 10:13 we have the expression, "the God of measure". God is said to be the God of things as well as the God of persons -- the God of glory, for instance; but here He is said to be the God of measure, and that by one who is said earlier to be "a wise architect". The idea of the architect brings us back to the creation; for "wisdom" is so regarded in Proverbs 9:1. The "nursling" of Proverbs 8:30 possibly alludes to architectural skill. Architecture requires measure. It certainly was employed by God in the creation when the foundations of the earth were laid. The great scheme of the creation was in His mind requiring most accurate measures and weights, so that there should be proportion and balance in this wonderful universe in which we are. Now these first three scriptures would show our true balance. They are significant in the sense that the idea is applied to the great moral system that God is constructing. All is on the principle of measure; and this should enter into the calculations and exercises of every christian, for he is designed to fill a place in the scheme, a measured place which cannot be filled by any other. Every stone in Solomon's structure was prepared before it was brought, so every believer is fitted for his place in the great divine structure; hence the importance of each taking account of this matter of measure.

Paul corresponds to lesson from this great Moses. We are to take a leader and minister of our

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dispensation. Moses is said to be a ministering servant, and as such he was faithful in all God's house. That faithfulness included the principle of measurement. On the mount with God he was occupied with divinely-given measures, which he faithfully carried out. And so the apostle Paul is occupied with measures as the wise architect. In laying the foundation he had in mind the whole structure, and hence the need of measure, which is so prominent a thought in this scripture from his pen.

Now, the first thought, as you will observe in Romans 12, has relation to the individual believer in the initial stages of his history or place in the assembly. Romans hardly deals with the assembly, although the epistle has it in view. As one reads Romans, believing from the heart the form of teaching, one instinctively looks for the assembly; one would be at a loss without it. The apostle assumes its existence. Apart from the existence of the assembly the whole tenor of the epistle would be amiss and lost, but the assembly is in view, and as the believer progresses in it, he looks for the assembly. He is ready for it! And further, if anybody is a christian and not in the apprehension of the assembly or his place in it, these words are for you. You are not intended to be an isolated unit; you are intended to fit into your place in the assembly. So the apostle, having this in view, says, "For I say, through the grace which has been given to me, to every one that is among you". He is writing to the company of christians in the city of Rome, and he is contemplating them from the mutual side. The word 'mutual' is simple, it is much used, and is a very fitting word at this juncture of the epistle. So to every one among you refers to every saint in Rome in mutual relations.

You cannot get this thought of mutuality in modern ecclesiasticism, it belongs to those who understand the gospel, who have received from the heart, and

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obeyed from the heart the form of teaching. It belongs to them; it is among them -- "every one that is among you". It could not be in the Vatican or in the institutions of the hierarchy. In the very nature of these things mutual relations are excluded; whereas the epistle to the Romans establishes them. Each saint in Rome would understand that he was on equal terms with every other. Like the boards of the tabernacle -- he is socketed in silver; he stands up on the ground of redemption, and stands in relation to all the others. But then he was to be reminded that he had a measure given to him of God, and that was the measure of faith -- not yet a question exactly of the divine nature, but a measure of faith. God intended that he should be in the structure, and as in it, he would be outside the world. Faith alludes to the power to lay hold of what is not seen, so that the measure of faith I have takes me in my mind out of the range of the world. Nor am I fit for the assembly unless I am outside the world in my affections. I belong to another world as in faith. The time of faith has come. This epistle to the Romans is to ground us in the faith of things. It is a system of things in which I stand in relation to others, all of us together outside of this world in our minds and affections. My measure is not the measure in which I am known by others, it is my own definite measure that God had given me. Each is to think soberly, looking around in the circle in which he is locally, and then generally, and to think soberly so as to be wise, as God has dealt to each a measure of faith. This is initial but it is very practical, especially for young people that they may learn how to take account of things and to think so as to be wise, as God has dealt to each a measure of faith.

Now this analysing review by the believer enables him to find his place, and discern that of any other, so that we are intelligent as set with others in mutual

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relations, as to the place assigned by God to each. It has a far-reaching effect. It sobers us and tends to dislodge pride, ambition and rivalry. It tends to give God His place amongst us. Every thought of His will and wisdom is to be the determining factor in the assembly. The quicker we learn it the better, otherwise we shall have to learn it by discipline, for God will have His way. We get in Ephesians -- the crowning epistle -- the "mystery of his will" and the "counsel of his will", and we see that the will of God must prevail.

Now in the epistle to the Corinthians we are seen in relation to the structure. The apostle regards himself as a wise architect laying the foundation and every one is to build, but "let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon". In the second letter he comes to those who are specially in the work, that is, as you may say, to the ministers, and says, 'I am not among those who compare themselves with themselves, neither am I among those who commend themselves in their service', but 'I am one who labours on the principle of measure, and that measure is what is apportioned to me by the God of measure'. Those that measure themselves by themselves are not intelligent, they do not perceive. They are working in the dark -- that is the force of the word. They were doing that sort of thing at Corinth. There were parties there -- there were coteries with leaders, which the apostle condemns at the very beginning of his first letter. There were those who were rivals of himself, one of them going so far as to say, speaking of the apostle, 'His letters are weighty, but his bodily presence weak, and his speech contemptible'. Think of one of Paul's own converts speaking of him in that way! He was comparing himself with Paul, and though he admitted that Paul could write a good letter, he says his bodily presence is weak. Think of saying that about a servant of God whom God was

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using in a most wonderful way! Think of criticising a servant of God like that! Think of speaking of the apostle Paul like that! Well, that was what was going on at Corinth, though the apostle had not been long away. He had been at Corinth for eighteen months, so they had had abundant opportunity to know what kind of a man he was. They had been comforted through him, and yet as he turns his back to go elsewhere to minister, this is what some at Corinth were capable of. It should search our hearts. How glibly we may criticise a servant of Christ, one who has been used to our soul's blessing, it may be. The Lord resents it. Not that a servant of the Lord may not be criticised -- far otherwise; if he is with God he will throw himself open to examination. But the apostle Paul had said, 'I am not going to be judged by you or by man's day. He who judges me is the Lord'. Let us judge nothing before the time. We are often very much ahead of time in judging even persons we have not known. But then I am speaking of the apostle's own attitude. He was not amongst those who compared themselves with themselves. They do not understand; they are labouring in the dark, to say the very least. In ministry it is a question of the measure which the God of measure apportions, so he says, 'It was a measure reaching unto you'. Could they deny it? No, they could not deny it. As he says elsewhere, "Examine your own selves if ye be in the faith ... do ye not recognise yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?" He was used of God for their conversion; they might have many ministers, ten thousand instructors, but they only had one father, and he was that father. He could put himself forward here as a model for us in our service, that we should not be amongst those who compare themselves with themselves, but be able to serve according to the divinely given measure, and let the results show! How far has one's measure

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gone? What is the result of it? Where is the evidence of it? Let that tell the tale, and it will! For normally the saints are judges. In love the saints should measure and calculate, and ministers get their place in the affections of the saints accordingly, that is right! So that we can well afford to leave results, and not be amongst those who compare themselves with themselves. We want a right standard, we are not a standard to each other. This traducer of Paul says, 'I could not write as good a letter as Paul, but I can speak better than he, and I have a better bodily presence than Paul'. How he would flatter himself We want to be free of such a sentiment. We want to be in the Spirit of Christ -- toiling on, and leaving the results with Christ. The point is to see to our measure, the measure of our faith and our works will tell their own tale.

I want to show from Ephesians that the minister has a right standard, and speaks to others that they too might reach it; not that he might reach it before them, so as to boast in their presence. I would speak to everyone, as to myself, that in our meetings, in our ministry, we should never have a thought of excelling another and that we should never stop short of the great standard for all, not as vying with others in our growth, or work, or service, but seeing to it that it is a case of love actuating us, so that everyone is brought up to the same standard, as the apostle said, "that we may present every man perfect in Christ", Colossians 1:28.

There was a man in a certain place who had seen the Lord praying. I should love to have seen the Lord praying! His gestures, His movements, His manner in the presence of God! -- and this disciple says to the Lord, "Teach us to pray!" Now had he thought of himself only, and his prominence among the other disciples, he would have thought of learning himself so that he would have the advantage. In the

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next prayer meeting his prayer would take pattern from Christ, and perhaps none of the others would pray so well. But he says, "Teach us to pray". He wanted them all to pray, and to pray after the pattern of Christ, for it is a question of precedent -- how we are to appear at the golden altar before God. One loves to think of the hundreds of meetings for prayer on Monday nights when the saints appear before God at the golden altar! The more priestly power among the saints, the more would my power be; so that it is a question of "Teach us to pray". Hence the passage in Ephesians says, "with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full grown man" -- it is till we all come.

And then he goes on to say that we are to be no longer babes. It is not a credit to a christian to be a babe or a dwarf! We should all go on together in growth and service, that we might come into the organism where everyone has a part according to the measure of each one part. We cannot have the organism contemplated in Ephesians 4 apart from measure, for it is "at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ".

Well, I pass on to the fourth scripture. I want to dwell on the power to measure discriminately. Discrimination is a great matter amongst us. It is worked out in the types in connection with feeding and the kinds of food we are to eat; that contemplates discrimination. It runs right through Scripture the exercise of our senses as in Hebrews "to discern" or to discriminate "between good and evil". Now this is a matter which is very practical and in which I desire to appeal to every one of us as to whether we are discriminating in our measurements of public religious organisations. Each one has to decide and challenge himself as to where he is ecclesiastically.

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I am not using the word as in the ordinary current use, but in the sense of the church, the assembly, as taken from the original word. Each of us is to determine before the Lord as to where he is ecclesiastically; that is, where he is in regard of the assembly, where he is in regard of Christ as Lord in this present corrupt Christianity in which we find ourselves publicly. For we cannot leave Christendom, except to apostatise! It is a great house, and every Christian is called upon to discriminate as to this great house. In John 14 the Lord speaks of manifesting Himself to the person who keeps His word -- "He that has my commandments and keeps them ...". One says, "Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself to us and not to the world?" and the Lord answers, "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him", John 14:21 - 23. I apprehend that that means that the Lord comes to one where one is ecclesiastically; for the keeping of the commandment of Christ has separated him from the public corrupt body. "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity". The words kept bring me into the tabernacle condition, that is the condition in which God may dwell. How great is that thought! And yet what He may be to one person! -- it is to a person who by the keeping of the words of Christ is in tabernacle condition; he is in the structure; he has come to apprehend the structure, the dwelling place of God, what is suitable for the Father and the Son. How great that is! -- "We will come to him and make our abode with him".

I speak of that because it enters into the passage in Revelation 11. The apostle John (the prophet John, as I should call him in Revelation) is seen in the previous chapter, and he is handed a little book. It is what God is doing for us today; He is reducing us outwardly. Inflation is very detrimental to us and

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God therefore reduces us, in His love. And so, the prophet John is told to take the little book and eat it. The little book contains something! It was not a blank book; it was small, but there was writing in it! The thoughts of God were in it for the moment, the thoughts governing the then position were in it. John took it and ate it, and it was sweet in his mouth, but bitter in his belly. That is to say, beloved, taking in and assimilating the thoughts of God governing the moment, the position we may be in, assimilating and feeling the thing in bitterness inwardly. The Spirit of God says, "Thou must prophesy again". The man that does that will be used again. He is going to measure the temple, the altar and the worshippers, and the porch is to be left out. We have here the idea of measurement by discrimination. If we learn how to do this measuring, how to take account, by experience with God, of the temple of God, what does it mean today? It means the saints who recognise the Spirit of God. "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God", says the apostle, "and that the Spirit of God dwells in you". Have I come to take account of the people of God in that way? Those to whom God speaks directly, who by the Spirit get into the mind of God -- what a thing to be able to measure those: not simply to recognise that they exist, but to measure them and take full account of them! And what else is there for you but to be amongst them, having part in their good things, in the communications of God which He so freely gives by the Spirit? And the temple and the altar are to be measured. Is there no sacrifice today? Thank God, there is! There may be very little, but it is for us to measure what there is and get into accord with it and have our part in it; to take account of it is what the prophet John is required to do. And then the worshippers! The word 'worship' is one to be well thought out! God is looking for

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them now, for worshippers! The Lord spoke to the woman of Samaria about it. "The Father seeks ... worshippers", but He will have them on His own terms. "They who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth", John 4:24. The great profession where worship is assumed to exist does not measure that; that is not to be taken account of; it is simply ruled out. If we have eyes to see we shall see that which they had, they have no more; as the Lord says, "Whosoever has, to him shall be given, and whosoever has not, even what he seems to have shall be taken from him". That is what is going on. The whole professing system is a mere shell with nothing in it for God. The Lord says to Laodicea, "I am about to spue thee out of my mouth".

In the meantime we are called upon to measure the temple of God, and the altar, and the worshippers. The worshippers are to be noted. The Father is seeking these. They are to worship Him in spirit and in truth. That is what God is seeking at the present time. I do not say there is very much; there is a good deal of public order, but then there must be spirit and truth. The Father seeks persons to worship Him in spirit and in truth. The apostle says, "I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also". Persons like that can have part there. Our Lord Jesus rejoiced in spirit and said, "I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for thus has it been well-pleasing in thy sight".

I would specially press this matter of discriminating and measuring things, so that we may know what is of God at the present time and have part in it, and know what is not of God and reject it.

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DRAWING NEAR TO GOD

Hebrews 10:21; Genesis 24:2 - 5; Genesis 43:16, 17, 23, 24; Exodus 4:14 - 17

These scriptures illustrate the place the Lord Jesus has in the house of God, summed up in the expression in Hebrews which speaks of Him as "a great priest over the house of God". I wish to dwell on these passages with that in view, so that we, as the Lord may help us, may be encouraged to draw near to God. God is in heaven, we are told, and we upon earth, but that is not because He wishes to put a distance between Him and us; He has found a means of drawing near to us, and correspondingly of our drawing near to Him. As we see in Jacob, in connection with whom the house of God is introduced, there is in the ladder the divine suggestion of communication. The idea of a ladder between heaven and earth would be ridiculous in the eyes of the mere astronomer, but it is perfectly intelligible to faith. Faith understands where the astronomer cannot understand. So God would indicate to us that He wishes us near to Him, not simply as having been brought near from His own side, but that we should draw near from our side, and should think it worth while to do so. He says, "I have borne you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself", but then in the presence of that He inaugurates a system in mount Zion in relation to which His people were to draw near from their side, and to draw near not empty, but full, for "none shall appear before me empty", Exodus 34:20.

Now having made these remarks, before dwelling on the passage in Hebrews, I would seek to indicate from the Old Testament scriptures read, how this principle of one being set over the house began early. Although the house of God was not formally introduced

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in relation to Abraham, the household of faith was seen in him and in his house; and before we can understand the house of God we must understand the household of faith. These types are intended to help believers from their spiritual infancy to their manhood; the types are very largely for young believers; and though they may seem difficult, as soon as we recognise the Spirit, and read, considering what is said, the Lord gives us understanding and the types become wonderful to us. The things of God that seem distant otherwise, are brought very near to the eye in detail, in the types, so that we peculiarly learn in part. Then we learn how to put the parts together, for that is one more feature of the types and of the initial history of the christian, to know how to put things together; so that the household of faith is wisely introduced in Scripture before the house of God. Indeed the "father of all them that believe" is introduced even earlier. The name Abram signifies 'High father', that is to say, the suggestion is that his family will be brought up on principles morally higher than the principles of this world; and then he is called Abraham, the 'Father of a multitude', meaning that he is qualified to be that, in that he bears the character of moral elevation. It is the epistle to the Romans which prepares the believer for the household of faith; it tells us that Abraham was the father of all believers. Now that is an initial thought, but an important one; for the christian that is believing in the Lord Jesus is brought into, and regarded by heaven as in, the household of faith; that is to say, we have people who look at things on that principle. The astronomers do not, nor do any scientific men, as such, look at things on that principle, whereas believers all do; beginning with the cross they look at it on that principle, and therefore they know more really than the scientific men, as seeing things from the divine standpoint.

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Now that ought to appeal to everyone, especially to the young, that you are brought into a family that is governed by the principle of faith; not merely for salvation, but faith in regard of everything; that we are in a dispensation of faith; that God is carrying on His affairs now on that principle, so that we have access into His secrets, whereas the cleverest men in this world are outside of them. I am not excluding the Spirit, so the Spirit comes in on that principle. The Spirit is given to those who have faith, so that we have the means, beloved, not indeed of searching the depth of the physical creation -- that is to pass away -- but "the depths of God", the depths of the Creator, which is a far greater thing!

So the first point in regard of these scriptures is that in the household of faith there is an overseer. He is first alluded to, as you will recollect, by name"Eliezer of Damascus", Genesis 15:2. Abram does not refer to it there to distinguish him, he is simply a 'son of his house', meaning that he was just a domestic, or a slave, you might say, and Abraham was distressed that such an one should be his heir. But in chapter 24 the viewpoint is different, and we have no name given. Although this ruler of Abraham's house was there when Hagar fled -- she had a place in the household of faith, but she fled from it -- the idea was there; but now it is Abraham's "servant, the eldest of his house, who ruled over all that he had". No name is given, because, although we know that he is over the house from the scriptures, the way of God is to bring us to things before we name them. We have the New Testament Scriptures now, in which things are named for us, and we may use these names in a very inexperienced way, even the natural mind can take them up; but in the school of God the principle is that I learn a thing and experience a thing, and then I name it. And so in Genesis 24, the point is to stress for the young believer that there is such a thing as this kind

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of overseership in the household of faith, someone who rules over all that is there, over all that Abraham has as the 'high father' and the 'father of a multitude'. He is evidently not a very vigorous kind of person, he does not rule with severity, but the believer comes to discover in due course as he believes the testimony of the gospel, that in the household of faith latitude, and looseness in general, and independency of thought and action, are foreign to this new family into which he is brought. He begins to see that there is a gentle, but nevertheless definite, rule in it, and he begins to see that it is for his good. As a matter of fact, the service of the Ruler of this house is to discover in the believer what is pleasing to Christ; He is looking out for something that the Lord Jesus died for, and He is putting forth His rule in a gentle but yet definite way in regard of that. He is over all that Abraham has, so to speak, and is concerned about what is dear to Christ; that is His particular business in chapter 24, and He carries out His service admirably and most successfully. If we give Him place He will discover, and give us to understand, that there is something pleasing to Christ in us, and that is a great leverage in the soul when the thought comes into it that there is at least something that is pleasing to the Lord. So this Steward over Abraham's house undertakes His service with the greatest care; He thinks out the difficulties of the way, for He has to do with young believers among whom we all have our part. Who is it that has had to do with young believers who does not well know the difficulties of getting at what belongs to Christ in them, and at what Christ cherishes? Now that is the ministry of this steward of Abraham's house in chapter 24. You will observe that Abraham is very old here, whereas what was to be sought out was to be young. The steward is old, too, but he has got universal sway in the household of faith; the older the better as regards

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experience, and this steward knew exactly the difficulties he had to contend with in his mission; but he overcomes them, as we have seen, not in a harsh way, but in a careful, calculated way, and on the principle of dependence upon God. What a fine thing it is to come in contact with this experienced element in the house, marked by dependence on God, and yet persistently seeking out that which Christ cherishes! The Lord has bought the field, according to the parable, because of the treasure in it, and also because of the pearl. He has bought the field in relation to the treasure, and His eye scans it day and night, to discover the treasure, so that He can set it free of false associations and encumbrances.

Now that is the idea of overseership, of one being over the household of faith, in this type; so that the servant is not occupying us with himself, and his name is not given, the point being to carry out the wish of Abraham and to secure what Isaac needs, and in this service he succeeds. The object is young, as I said, a maiden, typical of the young believer, but viewed as setting forth in principle the assembly, as that which the Lord is seeking. So this element in the household of faith is active day and night, to secure what the heart of Christ is set upon in believers, in young believers particularly, and the type shows the end, so that we might be encouraged that the end will be reached; for he finds Rebecca. The story is well known to us, but it should be studied from the standpoint now presented as bearing on the young christian; so that he comes to see the wisdom of this old experienced servant, involving an example for him in dependence; he sees the wisdom of it in the way it has reached him, and in the way it has secured him for Christ, to have part in the assembly. What can be greater, beloved, than that we should have part in that upon which the Lord Jesus has set His heart, and that for which He gave Himself?

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That is the first feature, and one which will be intelligible to everyone, that the principle of rule, or overseership, or authority, is exercised in matured experience and consideration and thoughtfulness, so as to secure its object, and dispel for ever from the mind of the believer all thought of independency, for independency deprives me of my greatest advantages.

Now the next feature of this rule in one over the house, is seen in Joseph's house. It is a bit further on as to the place it has in the history of the believer, but is of equal importance with what I have just dwelt upon. It is a question of the same kind of rule in the house, but in relation to the securing of the brethren: the believer comes into the idea of being set with the brethren of Christ. We need this rule if we are to reach that end, as much as in the other case. So you find that as Benjamin goes down with the brethren and comes into the view of Joseph, we get the mention of this man, or overseer, of his house. The Scriptures are marvellously accurate, whether the Old or New Testament, and they bear on us, for every line of them is written for christians. God is working out such a wonderful scheme at the present time, and securing such a wonderful result, that all the Scriptures are brought to bear upon us. So when I get the thought of one over the household of faith as a steward, I next come into the thought of one over the household of Joseph. Joseph is more directly a type of Christ than Abraham was. Abraham is the great father but Joseph represents Christ as the One who has brethren, and who will not be satisfied until He has them all, for He needs them all. Every one of us is needed by the Lord to form His "brethren", He secures an exact number; there are to be many, but the number, we may be certain, is determined, and all are necessary. We see the principle in Jacob's family and it runs through. Joseph in his wisdom is set to have them all but to have them on his own

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terms. There are many who take up the appellation "brethren" with little idea of the moral import of the term. We know that the evangelists give us a fourfold view of the "brethren" -- I do not go into that now -- but the appellation implies moral characteristics, and family characteristics, and the Lord is bent on securing that everyone bears these characteristics; and for this the principles of a man over His house is necessary. Now you will understand I am not speaking of the stewards of Abraham, and Joseph, as mere persons, for I have intimated before, that it is not a question of persons, but of these elements being found among believers, and as found, they are helpful and essential to our coming into the thing in view. The verses I read in Genesis 43 will indicate to you how interesting a man this was; his name is not given any more than that of Abraham's steward in chapter 24; it is the element that is in view; he comes into view immediately Benjamin is in sight. Benjamin is like the overcomer, he is the brother who has not offended, the others had, but as soon as he comes into the view of Joseph, this man over his house is immediately mentioned, and he is under Joseph; his attitude is perfectly in keeping with the mind of Joseph, he knows exactly what is going on. Now if we are awake to this, beloved, it will have a very real effect upon us in producing a certain sure vigilance, without any assumption attaching to it, that knows what is transpiring to the end that Joseph's mind should be carried out. Now see how this servant agrees with the mind of Joseph. Joseph directs him to bring the men into his house; it is the house of a great personage -- the Son of God, in type, who would bring all of us into accord with Himself as His brethren. This element is subservient to His thought, it is current and active all the time, for I may add that whilst these things work out in one way or another in the Lord's people through the

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power of the Spirit, they could not be in the house without the presence of the Holy Spirit. And so Joseph directs this servant to bring the men into the house, and they are concerned about being brought into the house. The brethren begin to feel that after all he may be using the word 'brethren' to them, and they have not realised what it means; and there has been conduct, there has been state, wholly out of keeping with it, so we can well understand their perturbation as they come to the door of the house. What is outside is very different from what is inside, and so they reason with the man, as you will observe, at the door. It says in verse 19, "They came near to the steward of Joseph's house, and they communed with him at the door of the house, and said, O, sir, we came indeed down at the first to buy food; and it came to pass, when we came to the inn, that we opened our sacks, and, behold, every man's money was in the mouth of his sack, our money in full weight; and we have brought it again in our hand. And other money have we brought down in our hands to buy food; we cannot tell who put our money in our sacks. And he said, Peace be to you, fear not". Now, dear brethren, what is in the minds of these men at the door of Joseph's house, is money, they are thinking of money, they are thinking of the money they had, and how it was put into their sacks, and how they brought more money down; but a place in Joseph's house, a place among the brethren of Christ, is not on that principle at all. We have to understand the ground on which things are in the house. It is not on the principle of money; these men were full of the idea of money, the money they had, and the money they brought down in addition, but this steward of Joseph's house says to them, "Peace be unto you". He knew all about that. This refers to the secret workings of the Spirit of God on these principles of oversight and authority, and

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yet there is no pretension attaching to it, for the Spirit Himself is here in the most subservient way, in the subservience of love, to secure the divine end; He would banish from us for ever the thought of securing a place with money. As Peter says to Simon Magus in Acts 8, "Thy money go with thee to destruction, ... Thou halt neither part nor lot in this matter". I do not say that was so with these men, but they did not understand what Joseph understood. Christ is bent on securing your heart as one of the brethren, and this element of overseership is active all the time to secure it. If you will look back on your history, you will see how it has been working. He says, "Peace be to you, fear not: your God, and the God of your father, hath given you treasure in your sacks: I had your money". Now this is a lesson I would commend to all: how beautifully consolingly this man, this ruler over Joseph's house, spoke to these men: without his name being mentioned, but at the same time giving them to know that he knew all about them; and he connects God with them, and with their father; how he dignifies them! Now that is what we find as we approach the door of Joseph's house. We need to understand that God is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and presently we shall know that He is our God, too, and our Father, and that we are the brethren of Christ.

Well now, I proceed to show you how this principle of the Lord's place over the house of God is illustrated in Aaron. I cannot say very much about Aaron; much has been said, but he represents the full thought illustrated in these three types. "For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and at his mouth they seek the law", Malachi 2:7. We have now come into Exodus, where things are to be regulated formally and divinely; that is to say, Exodus gathers up the instruction in Genesis, and fits us for the assembly in

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type, where we each have our place. Everything is according to measure, in Exodus, and as the pieces or parts of the tabernacle are set up, each part is functioning; that is to say, intelligence marks the believer in Exodus, and Aaron is representative of this intelligence, and what comes out of that is good speaking. He could speak well. The history of Exodus shows that Aaron had a way of speaking that attracted people, and turned them from the world; as the people were about to return to Egypt (Exodus 16), yearning for the fleshpots, Aaron spoke to them, and such was the power of his voice and of his words, that they turned towards the wilderness when he spoke. Who but Christ, beloved, the Great Priest in heaven as set out in Hebrews, could so control by His words, the hearts of the saints, that they turn away from the world, and turn towards the wilderness? The whole epistle to the Hebrews is just a matter of the power of the Priest turning our hearts away from the world, towards the wilderness where the tabernacle is. It says, "We have such a one high priest ... minister of the ... true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man" (Hebrews 8:1, 2); it is the greatness of the Priest, and we have Him! That is the idea presented in Aaron. The Lord says to Moses, "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also behold, he goeth out to meet thee", Exodus 4:14. Dear brethren, how touching that is as applying to the Lord! He is the One that goes out to meet the brethren; He takes a long journey to meet the brethren, and when He sees them He is glad in His heart. That is the idea, and so the service of Aaron throughout is to encourage the hearts of the saints. The end is seen in his rod -- Aaron's rod -- which should denote the authority I am speaking about; it is the rod with which Moses is to approach the rock in Numbers 20, to bring forth the water. It is Christ

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in that way, the true Priest of God as seen in the epistle to the Corinthians. The apostle did not come with the rod, he had it, but he did not bring it; instead of that he sends Timothy, who is like himself. In priestly attitude Timothy would make known to them, "my ways as they are in Christ". Timothy would speak to them, he would not use the rod, he would approach the brethren and speak to them. Jehovah said to Moses and Aaron, "Speak ye unto the rock"; it is the time of speaking. The rock was to give forth its water, and it did so.

Having said that about Aaron, there are a few remarks to be made on the passage in Hebrews 10, which I have already anticipated. You will observe that He is the Great Priest over the house of God; it is no longer a mere principle or element, but a Person, a known Person, set over the house of God. The first mention of it is in chapter 3 where He is said to be Son over it. Moses was a servant in the house, "a ministering servant", and faithful in it; Christ is Son over it. He is over it, as having built it; such is the greatness of the house as referring to what the Son has set up. What He has set up is for ever and He rules over it as Son; that gives it its dignity. He is "a merciful and faithful high priest", so that we may know that He has the fullest sympathy with us. Hebrews shows how He comes in on the side of the brethren, "Since therefore the children partake of blood and flesh, he also, in like manner, took part in the same, that through death he might annul him who has the might of death, that is, the devil; and might set free all those who through fear of death through the whole of their life were subject to bondage", Hebrews 2:14, 15. So chapter 4 says that we have a "great high priest" not yet over the house, but we have Him, and in that understanding we draw near to the throne of grace. But the house is not mentioned till chapter 10, because God would bring us to the

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understanding of it, and the place Christ has in it, and that it is ruled over by Himself as the Great Priest. He is great personally, He is great in a moral sense; He is great enough to get alongside the weakest of us, and support and encourage us as we draw near to God. So the word here is, "Having therefore, brethren, boldness for entering into the holy of holies by the blood of Jesus, the new and living way which He has dedicated for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, and having a great priest over the house of God, let us approach with a true heart, in full assurance of faith, sprinkled as to our hearts from a wicked conscience, and washed as to our body with pure water". That is what God is set for, and Hebrews sets out the furnishings for it, so that the weakest believer should draw near. Why should we stay at a distance from God? Think of the service of such an One as this the Great Priest over the house of God! He is there to support us as we essay to draw near to God. It is as we start, as we make a move, that we realise His support. Many do not understand how to draw near to God, because they do not take the initiative; it is as taking the initiative you come in for the support of this Great Priest, and He supports you right through into the very holiest where God is, into the holiest of all. One is made conscious the further one enters, of one's fitness for the place, that one is no stranger there, that one belongs to it. "Both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one"; it belongs in that way to the sanctified. That is the idea of the holiest, we are equal to the place, because the Lord is the Sanctifier -- "for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren".

That was what I had in mind, dear brethren, and I trust that God will use the word so that we may draw near with more intelligence and energy.

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WHAT IS MORE EXCELLENT

1 Samuel 16:1 - 13; Acts 20:4 - 7

J.T. There is in the Scriptures a suggestion of what is "more excellent", and David represents it in the Old Testament, as the ministry of that which God presented through Paul does in the New. As we draw near to the end of our dispensation, or rather, of "God's dispensation, which is in faith" (1 Timothy 1:4), the divine thought is conformity with what was at the beginning. We have in David the suggestion of going up, and we have that in Paul also, not only in the sense of the literal translation, but in the sense of moral elevation. So that I thought the selection from Acts 20 would cover this proposal, first, because the chapter is so full of what is excellent, the way of surpassing excellence seen in what is recorded of the apostle himself and of others, the elders of Ephesus; and perhaps, what has not been much noticed, the quality of the persons who accompanied him, whose names are given. As will be observed, it is said in verse 4, "There accompanied him as far as Asia", and then there is a list of names, which, as no doubt we will all be aware as our attention is called to them, represent quality and spiritual formation. We have the idea of the personnel of the assembly, that is to say, of those who distinguish it, as well as the organism itself. There is throughout Scripture the idea of what is excellent in the way of quality, in those who represent the work of God, and the epistle to the Philippians indicates the desire on the part of the saints, expressed in the apostle, to reach forward to the full divine thought for us. The saints there are enjoined to "judge of and approve the things that are more excellent", Philippians 1:10. The brethren perhaps will follow, from these remarks, what is in one's

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mind. Does such a suggestion fit in at the present time?

H.F.N. I think what you were saying was very impressive. Would you denote some of the features of these brethren?

J.T. I spoke of them in a general way, as known to many of us in the way the Spirit speaks of them. The first one is a Berean, and then we have Timotheus and others, whose names are well known. We might finish with them in relation to the long discourse of the apostle, the substance of which is not given, the very absence of it only directing our attention to what it must have been, what is unwritten having its own voice. In David I thought of suggesting that selection is in evidence not only in the rejection of the Amalekite, as in chapter 15, and of Saul, but also of the sons of Jesse themselves.

-.P. Would that be in contrast to what was excellent?

J.T. Well, I think they represent gradation. It is not that they were not regarded as God's people, because they are afterwards taken care of by David with his parents, but as he is selected, they form a background for the more excellent. Would you agree with that?

H.F.N. Yes. Would you say what is the feature in your mind of the Amalekite, as applying to us at the present moment?

J.T. Well, in connection with the Amalekite as seen in Agag, Saul excuses the sparing of some of the best of the sheep; the inferior cattle were destroyed; that is, he makes a difference. So the difference between the excellent and the more excellent, or the idea of gradation, is not new, it is current in the world. Then in Agag himself, we have the best, not of the cattle but, I suppose, of the people. He came "delicately"; he was marked by refinement, but

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he is not spared. And then Saul himself was the best at the time of his selection, but he is rejected. And now we come to a family that has a spiritual setting, that of Jesse the Bethlehemite; and Samuel says, as he looked on Eliab, "Surely the Lord's anointed is before him"; as if he recognised that family and thought, surely there was nothing to do but take the firstborn; but we are taught by what follows that that is not how we are to regard the people of God. There is what is more excellent.

Rem. The principle applies to the town as well. You were saying elsewhere that Bethlehem plays a great part in the divine economy.

J.T. Yes, I think the town itself has a place in that way. It is alluded to in the book of Ruth; it has a spiritual setting.

Ques. Why does it first come into view in Genesis 35 at the death of Rachel? Would the death of Rachel be like the passing of Israel, and the bringing in of Christ, in some way?

J.T. Yes, Rachel represents Israel as the first-loved. She is referred to in the New Testament in that setting, too: Rachel weeping for her children. Jacob says, "Rachel died by me". Rachel's sepulchre was a landmark in this very book, so that Bethlehem had a spiritual setting, and Jesse also, for he is mentioned earlier. But God would say to us that, in spite of all these things, we are to have a taste for what is more excellent, otherwise we shall sit down in satisfaction with what we have got. We have distinction in our spiritual setting; but the idea of taste and discernment and making room for the Lord to distinguish whom He will among us, comes in, because the word to Samuel was, "Thou shalt anoint unto me him whom I name unto thee". We must not shut the Lord out in His rights to distinguish whom He will. He marks off according to His perfect knowledge of what there is; and we must take notice of that.

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W.T.E. Does the beautiful appearance go with the lovely countenance?

J.T. Yes, it is the distinction of David that the Spirit of God gives, and that helps in our subject. He waits till David arrives to give us his description. That is to say, the description given here shows that he was the more excellent.

W.T.E. Does the "appearance" indicate what he was outwardly, and the "beautiful countenance" express what was inside?

J.T. Yes. 'Beautiful-eyed', it is literally; it would be the expression of what was inward, I think.

H.F.N. Does the principle of what you were referring to come out in Jesse's family? Does not the firstborn come in for more severe condemnation; the Lord said, "I have refused him"? As to the rest of the family Samuel merely says, "Neither hath the Lord chosen this".

J.T. Eliab stands out, he was the choice of Samuel, but the comments of the Spirit of the Lord would show that there was something in him that rendered him less fit than any of them, and the sequel shows that it was so.

H.F.N. So that the power to discriminate is one of the finest qualities of the spiritual mind.

J.T. That is what I was thinking, and you would say it ought not to be absent amongst us.

Ques. Would not the sacrifice help on that line?

J.T. It is a feminine sacrifice, a heifer. I suppose the thought is that there is to be something to correspond subjectively; that is to say, David as the excellent typified Christ as the more excellent, and draws out the best that there is subjectively. We want that, too. So that immediately after the overthrow of Goliath, David is honoured by the women of Israel (1 Samuel 18:7).

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Ques. Is the principle seen at the close of Acts 1 where the disciples selected two, but the Lord indicated one?

J.T. Yes, they use their best judgment. Peter specified that the selection should be of those that had assembled with them "all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us". They would be the excellent, the Lord Himself had called them "the excellent" (Psalm 16:3), but then there were the more excellent, some of them would be more excellent. These two would be specially selected from the number as continuing from John's baptism till the time the Lord Jesus was received up; there is some allusion there to brethren whose experience extends back to the wars of Canaan, and other things; for the wars of Canaan bring out what God is to His people. The coming in and going out of the Lord Jesus among the saints, from the time of John's baptism to the time He was received up, involved a history without any equal. So that we are reminded that those who have experience among the people of God are to be noted.

M.W.B. Would it be normal in a local gathering that there should be these gradations that you refer to?

J.T. I think it is laid upon us to have our eyes about us. We have to think of men, for instance, who have been through the wars of the Lord; who have part in the unfoldings of the mind of the Lord, and have known the men whom God used; all that enters into the position. Of course there may be those who historically have had part in these things and have lost caste, but there are those who have not; and these two who were selected according to Peter's suggestion would be, I judge, men who had gone on. There were many others among the disciples who had not had part in all that; and I suppose the Lord would have the brethren take account of what there

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is, whether it be locally or generally. We are at a great disadvantage if we have not eyes in our heads; as it is said of Paul, "fixing his eyes on him"; that is a sort of formula in the Acts. Use all the ability you have to discern where people are, and what they are.

M.W.B. So that the warning here that "the Lord seeth not as man seeth" is very much to be noted, because man's judgment would entirely pervert you as to your judgment, would it not?

J.T. Exactly. I find it a great advantage to pray to the Lord to give me a judgment about this brother and that brother. You feel your inability to see through people, but it is a great disadvantage if I do not know the brethren as to what they are, and the Lord gives understanding of them. Here He says, "whom I name"; so that you have your eyes open, and you are waiting on the Lord to give you a right understanding of the brethren.

Ques. Did not the Lord Himself act in that way in taking Peter and James and John with Him?

J.T. Well, He made a selection.

H.F.N. Would the same principle be seen in the Lord's choice of the twelve apostles? It says in Luke the Lord spent a whole night in prayer before He chose them; would that bear on what you are saying?

J.T. Very much. One could understand how they would all come under review as He spoke to His Father.

Ques. So would this discrimination be the result of communion with God in this way?

J.T. Yes, it is "whom I name"; Samuel did not wait for the naming; he did not wait for the Lord to name the person.

P.L. Would Leviticus 27 show that? Is Leviticus largely a book of communion and sacrifice, with discrimination in the last chapter?

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J.T. Very much, for us. It is a very great thing to know our brethren, to know their measure and their ability, and that they should know us. I think fellowship enters into all that.

W.T.E. In that connection, what would be involved in, "How long wilt thou mourn for Saul"?

J.T. We see in Samuel what should be a warning, the most spiritual man of his time was deceived at this point. We are apt to over-estimate or underestimate a brother, and if we do either, we are at a disadvantage. Samuel was the most spiritual man of his time, yet he was mourning for Saul, and then, when he saw Eliab, he said, "Surely the Lord's anointed is before him". With all the weight of his experience and dignity among the people of God, he was committing God to a wrong man. He was indicating that God was going to take up a man He was not naming at all.

M.W.B. Do you think the difference between this case and that of Moses was that Moses waited for God to select Joshua, though obviously having a great appreciation of him in the success of his ministry.

J.T. Very good. You feel how right that was.

Rem. And you see it in Paul with Timothy.

J.T. Exactly. We have to let the Lord name the man whom He is to use, "him whom I name unto thee".

M.W.B. Would you just draw a distinction between Agag as the Amalekite and Saul, both of whom were rejected; and then Eliab, who was also rejected, but recognised in another sense? I suppose Agag is absolutely refused. In what way was there any form of recognition of Saul?

J.T. Agag is just the flesh, he gets no quarter at all -- a quality well known for years before; although he comes gaily or delicately, he is just the flesh refined, so that he gets no quarter. Saul, on the other hand, is one who has been anointed of God and

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has been used of God, like many whom you and I know, or have known; we mourn them to a point, but we should not continue mourning as long as Samuel did; still they are to be regretted seriously, men whom God has actually used as anointed, but who have turned aside. So that Samuel with spiritual feeling, says as to him, "Has Jehovah delight in burnt-offerings and sacrifices, as in hearkening to the voice of Jehovah? ... Because thou hast rejected the word of Jehovah, he hath also rejected thee from being king", 1 Samuel 15:22, 23. Well, what Saul had done was that he did not carry out the word of God fully, he spared the best of the flesh; and I believe that can be traced in every one whom God may have used, but who has been rejected; there has been the sparing of what they may have considered the best of the flesh. Then the household of Jesse the Bethlehemite would be the saints in a right setting, an acknowledged setting, for Samuel even sanctified him; they are set up, and invited to the sacrifice; that is to say, they represent us all as we are sitting here today, with God's scrutinising eye passing over us as to His service and whom He names. That is what I understand.

M.W.B. It is very sobering, both as to Saul and as to this even more searching case of Eliab and the others.

A.D. Was not the failure of Jesse apparent? He did not obey the command of Samuel to call his sons to the sacrifice, David was not even there.

J.T. Well, that is the kind of failure we are all exposed to. We are sitting here today, and maybe we have left David at home, neglected him; because David represents not only Christ personally, but also the traits of Christ in the saints.

A.D. He was the one essential person who was not present; they could not sit down till he came.

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J.T. No; so the traits of Christ are the one essential in a meeting like this. Therefore we have to examine ourselves for the traits of Christ and see why they are not present. If I come to the meeting with any other trait than what is of Christ, if I am full of something else, maybe I have left Him out, and there is no sitting down. Samuel represents what is adjustable among us. The greater the work of God in a brother or sister the more readily adjusted he is. Samuel is immediately adjusted, and his adjustment is seen in a negative way: that is, he says, 'We will not proceed on these lines. We shall have to wait for David, to wait for the youngest' -- "We will not sit at table till he come hither". So there we are, Eliab and the rest of us, sitting in humiliation as rejected; we shall have to wait for David.

M.W.B. Do you think that exercise should be with us in connection with the convening of the assembly in relation to the Supper, that there might be very definite self-judgment, that we will wait till every element of self is judged, and what is of Christ consciously present?

J.T. That is what I understand, exactly. It is quite obvious that Jesse is accepted, we are in the position of acceptance; as coming together as a local company we are on the ground of acceptance outwardly; Samuel is directed to hallow Jesse and his house, he is accepted, fitted to be invited to the sacrifice. Note the recurrence of the word "sacrifice" here. He is there, and all his household, but now the Lord reserves the right to name someone.

H.F.N. Is not the principle of which you are speaking even more searching in a local setting than in a universal way? In a universal way we will bow to that principle.

J.T. It is, and it can only be worked out in a local setting where we know each other. So we have

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to make room for the Lord, when He says, "Whom I name". Samuel proceeded without that, and yet Samuel was the most spiritual man of his day.

P.L. "Jehovah will count, when he inscribeth the peoples, This man was born there", Psalm 87:6. Is that selection?

J.T. Quite so. God makes His own selection; let nobody think He does not, He reserves that right, no matter who it may be.

H.F.N. What was your thought in regard to the youngest?

J.T. Well, it says, "Samuel said to Jesse, Are these all the young men? And he said, There is yet the youngest remaining, and behold, he is feeding the sheep. And Samuel said to Jesse, Send and fetch him; for we will not sit at table till he come hither". He is the youngest, which I suppose, in a somewhat unspiritual state of things amongst us, may allude to what has a place in the family, for he is called the youngest, but a very neglected place. It often is so, that the features of Christ are least cared for. We may start out for the meeting thinking of our dress, or of who is to preach tonight, or who is the ministering brother -- or things like that. The traits of Christ are little thought of, but they are the essential; without them you could have nothing.

Ques. Would the keeping of the sheep be a qualifying statement?

J.T. I think so, it is a leading thought here. It brings up an enormous amount of thought in the mind. Why does that come in here? Why does he not say 'the youngest' without saying anything about his occupation? But it alludes to the distinctive features of Christ. That kind of thing runs right through in the men of faith beginning with Abel -- it is unselfish consideration for others.

Rem. It is that which produces the king finally; that is the kind of man to be king.

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A.D. If Samuel had been more spiritual, he would have put that question first: "Are these all the young men?"

J.T. Yes, for the word was, "I have provided me a king among his sons". That is the line on which we should come together, hoping that the brethren have these traits and that they are not coming without them; or coming with the appearance of Eliab, the appearance of a man after the flesh.

P.L. Would you get the idea with the Corinthians? Paul says as to Timothy, a man with a shepherd spirit who would care for their state, "Let not therefore any one despise him", 1 Corinthians 16:11. Were the Corinthians in their gatherings likely to leave such an one as Timothy out?

J.T. Yes, that is good. They would have been thinking of men like Eliab, distinguished men, those who compared themselves with themselves, showing they had no right standard.

M.W.B. What had you in mind when you remarked that David was marked by going up?

J.T. He says to Jehovah, "Shall I go up ... ?" (2 Samuel 2:1), and we were noticing that the idea of priesthood comes in with David informally, even the ephod was taken on by him, and finally worn as he danced before the ark. We were noticing that all his prayers get answered one after another, and amongst them there is this one, when he asks Jehovah as to whether he should go up to one of the cities of Judah, and Jehovah directs him to go up: then he asks as to which city and Jehovah says, "Unto Hebron", as showing the line He was on, and he goes up.

What comes out with David here is the excellent quality of the young man. When I begin to see the beautiful traits of Christ, I say, 'Why should I be in assembly ignoring that, when in truth it is the

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only thing valued there, the only thing that God accepts'?

Ques. If these features are not recognised amongst us, does that show the state of the local meeting?

J.T. It does; the house of Jesse here is just a local meeting. They were the people of God, but their state is bad, and even Samuel's state is not good; so the most spiritual of us may be found like this.

Ques. Does it suggest that David's history had been overlooked?

J.T. It does. Where were Jesse's eyes? How would he neglect such a young man as this? There was none like him. "He was ruddy, and besides of a lovely countenance and beautiful appearance". That is the account the Spirit gives of him, and then Jehovah says, "Arise, anoint him; for this is he", as if God was pleased with that. It is a question of spiritual life; ruddiness means that I am living spiritually; it is the flush of life.

Ques. Do we get a contrast to this in Jacob and his son? He gave Joseph a coat of many colours; does that suggest what Jacob saw in Joseph?

J.T. Exactly; Jacob loved Joseph, he did not fail in this respect.

H.F.N. Have you a thought as to the difference between love's excellent way, and the way the apostle speaks to the Philippians of the things that are "more excellent"?

J.T. When we come to that, there are things that engage us, not only persons, but things. There are things, even in what is presented to us in testimony, that are more excellent than other things. Many are content with the ordinary things presented in the gospel, precious and valuable as they are, but there are more excellent things which we are to go in for.

H.F.N. Would they have reference to what Paul referred to as the hidden things in relation to wisdom?

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J.T. Exactly. In Philippians 3 he tells us what was before him; he wished to attain to the resurrection from among the dead; that is a most excellent acquirement, it gives you victory; death will never have any terror for your soul as you reach that point. Then he says, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus". That would be something even beyond, so that our taste becomes refined in that way; one's taste is oneself in a way, there is spiritual refinement.

Ques. The apostle says, "have your mind ..." Colossians 3:2. Would that be the thought?

J.T. Yes, that is another suggestion of it. You can see how God sets before us objectively in David what was more excellent. It is not that the others were rejected as Christians, they are rejected as the selection of God for kingship; not otherwise. And the Holy Spirit describes the man that God chooses, so that we might see that the divine selection is right; as soon as he appears he is described to us. God made His selection before, but now it is apparent that it is right, as he is anointed in the midst of his brethren. They are still his brethren, they are not rejected in that sense.

Rem. The setting is beautiful, but incomplete without David.

J.T. The household was right. Jesse was sanctified and called to the sacrifice, but there was this defect which was fatal unless it was repaired, and when David arrives it is apparent that God's choice is right. It is not that Jesse was such a poor Christian typically; he was not; the Old Testament saints have to suffer for us as well as the apostles. One like David might suffer for the sake of millions of saints; his sin is recorded and mine is not -- he suffers for us, that is how we learn, from their example. God would have

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no pleasure in exposing the failures of His people; He does it so that we might not fall into these things.

P.L. And anyone who had judged his sin would be glad to have it so; the proof he had judged it would be his readiness to be an example.

J.T. Quite so. We hardly realise the actuality of the fact that the Lord Jesus appropriated our sins personally; He took all the shame of them that we might be spared the consequences of them; so even the saints have to suffer for us relatively, that we might be saved from them.

J.J. Is that why Peter is exposed so much in the gospels?

J.T. I think so.

J.J. Would you say the epistle to the Romans would enter into the lovely countenance and beautiful appearance, if we are to be like that?

J.T. I think so. I think it is making us to live, the bloom of life is seen in the ruddy countenance; and then the appearance is more the intelligence shining out in the countenance -- "the health of my countenance", Psalm 42:11.

P.L. Would the one be newness of life as in Romans, and the other the eyes of your heart in Ephesians?

J.T. I think so, and the renewing of the mind -- it goes on to Ephesians.

Then later in the chapter one of the young men of Saul said, "I have seen a son of Jesse" and he gives a description of him, it is another view of excellence.

He plays well -- he has ability to entertain, that is really what Saul needed, to be entertained, and David excelled in that. "He is a valiant man and a man of war, and skilled in speech, and of good presence, and Jehovah is with him". There is none like him. That is not the account of the Spirit of God, but of someone who saw him and took notice of him.

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Ques. Why is Eliab's countenance not to be looked at; David's is to be noted?

J.T. I think with Eliab it was just external, what nature would put on. The reference to David is an allusion to the eye, literally the word is beautiful-eyed, alluding, I think, to the intelligence involved in the eye.

Ques. Do we all come under the adjustment that is mentioned here, the word of the Lord coming to us?

J.T. I think we do. I do not think we shall ever be in assembly rightly, unless we are adjusted in this way; we have to depend on the Lord to have a right estimate of the brethren.

W.T.E. Are you suggesting that the more excellent things are found in certain persons in the gatherings?

J.T. Yes. At Troas they were not local, they were just there; the point is "they accompanied him". I think the Spirit would suggest to us quality, the personnel of those who are distinguished as the result of the work of God.

P.L. The power to travel with Paul would suggest spiritual mettle.

J.T. Exactly. The first one is a Berean, Sopater. I need not remark on the Berean, he is a Pauline saint, he searched the Scriptures; he does not swallow things down because of the importance of the man who says them. However important the brother may be, we need, as the Bereans did, to search "the scriptures daily, whether those things were so", Acts 17:11. Brothers and sisters who do that are most essential among us: otherwise we may absorb things and think they are right when they are not.

W.T.E. They are referred to as "more noble".

J.T. That is the thought, the quality.

W.M.B. Today there is very great need for attention to what has been written, is there not? We cannot over-estimate the importance of written

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ministry, but Scripture has its own divine place.

J.T. It is most important: "to the law and to the testimony" (Isaiah 8:20), and "it is written", Matthew 4:4.

Ques. Does that come out in David in his occupation of caring for the sheep; he was working things out for God?

J.T. I think so. In looking after the sheep you are typically caring for the saints, which is a fine service; but a Berean is concerned that what is ministered should be the truth, and nothing but the truth, and the Scriptures are the test of all that; he searches them daily whether these things are so. Ques. The apostle's word to Timothy was that the Holy Scriptures would make him wise unto salvation (2 Timothy 3:15).

J.T. Yes, Timothy had known the Holy Scriptures from a child.

Ques. You were saying elsewhere that the disciples who were with the Lord at the institution of the Supper were an authority as to it; now here these men are with Paul; would there be something similar in this?

J.T. I think so, they are men who have part in the service.

P.L. They are Paul's sons, seven of them, contrasting with the seven sons of Sceva who fled away naked (Acts 19:16).

J.T. Just so; they are sons of the testimony, anyway. Sopater would be some allusion, I suppose, to a son with a father. Then those "of the Thessalonians" would be locals, men who understand local responsibility and order. When you have an epistle addressed to "the assembly of Thessalonians" or to "the assembly of God which is at Corinth", you have the expression of what is evident in a locality. Aristarchus and Secundus are brothers who under stand local responsibility and order. Then you have

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two others, Gains and Timotheus of Derbe; and of Asia, Tychicus and Trophimus. There is not time, or perhaps ability, to bring out all the meanings of these names, but I think we shall all be helped if we consider them; they refer to the personnel of those who distinguish the work of God. There are always those who stand out, and the testimony requires there should be "leading men among the brethren", Acts 15:22.

P.L. Does it not speak of wisdom having hewn her seven pillars?

J.T. Quite so. We have five men at Antioch, as we have often noted. All these men accompanied Paul; he is the great thought throughout these chapters and what God ministered through him. "These going before waited for us in Troas; but we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and we came to them to Troas in five days, where we spent seven days". Now if we put all these things together we have a remarkable combination: the others coming from Philippi and these noted men waiting at Troas till they came. They must have had a good time.

H.F.N. You referred to five at Antioch and seven here, but when you come to the shipwreck you only have one named and that is Aristarchus, a Macedonian of Thessalonica. Have you any thought as to that?

J.T. I am glad you mentioned that, I had not noticed it, but I suppose he represents this local element.

Rem. Luke would be included in the "us" though not mentioned.

M.W.B. Is there a suggestion in the five days of experience that lead up to the seven days, which would be a complete exercise of fellowship as experienced in a place?

J.T. I think so. They "waited for us", then when Paul arrived and the saints had come together

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on the first day of the week he speaks a long time, as if to say 'you did well to wait', and we do well to wait if we do not understand Paul. Let him speak; hear all he has to say.

P.L. Does not Peter encourage that? He speaks of things "hard to be understood" written by "our beloved brother Paul", 2 Peter 3:15, 16.

J.T. It is well to wait and get understanding. Paul tells us, "the Lord will give thee understanding" (2 Timothy 2:7), for there are things hard to be understood, but He will tell us. A brother suggested to me before this meeting that we should have things simple, and it is well to do so if the brethren are able to follow, but we must learn to wait five days till Paul comes, and get his mind about things. If we miss what he has to say, we miss the mystery, we miss the best there is, what will come out by and by, so we must wait and be patient.

P.L. Did Simeon wait for the best?

J.T. Yes, he waited for the salvation; others did too.

H.F.N. Have we not to recognise that things are hard because we are dull of hearing?

J.T. I think we should go in for the best, and if I do not understand, go to the Lord and He will give me understanding.

J.J. Paul had a great affection for Tychicus; he says, "In order that ye also may know what concerns me, how I am getting on, Tychicus, the beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make all things known to you", Ephesians 6:21. It shows the unselfish delight he had in others.

J.T. Quite so. I think the apostle Paul teaches us how to value the brethren. His salutations to the Romans and in all the epistles teach us how to regard a brother. I acknowledge I am very poor in regarding the brethren. If one really loves the brethren and

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enjoys their company, there is real feeling in commending them. There are twenty salutations in the epistle to the Romans. Paul might have used the word once, but he uses it each time.

P.L. It is like the ephod of the priest, all the tribes in his heart.

J.T. That is the great objective thought. There is only one ephod, the one that Christ wears; the breastplate is in it, the saints on the shoulders, and in the breastplate.

Ques, Was there a note of peculiar pleasure when Paul says, "Take Mark, and bring him with thyself, for he is serviceable to me for ministry", 2 Timothy 4:11? He was recovered.

J.T. Quite so, he was profitable.

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LOVERS OF GOD

Romans 8:28; 1 Corinthians 2:9, 10; 1 Corinthians 8:3; Judges 5:31

In looking to the Lord to help, dear brethren, I have in view lovers of God. These scriptures all treat of this great subject, which will, I am sure, appeal to us, all of us, as I assume, being lovers of God. There are, alas, many non-lovers of God, lovers of pleasure, lovers of their own selves, indeed, self-love marks the non-lovers of God. The Holy Spirit takes notice of this as a peculiar feature of the last days amongst those who profess to have believed the gospel, for God is effectually shut out through self-love and love of pleasure, pleasure being preferred to God. So it occurred to me that help would accrue from attention being called to these passages.

The first appears in the well-known gospel epistle of Paul, an epistle indeed, in which we might expect to find an allusion to the lovers of God; for God had lovers of Himself in mind in sending His Son as the epistle sets forth: "The gospel of God ... concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord", Romans 1:1, 3. The opening verses help us to grasp the idea of God; it has to be grasped in the mind, as it is said, "No one has seen God at any time" (John 1:18), a statement that has to be constantly in view. We are indeed reminded of the infinitude of God. The Lord Jesus tells us also that "God is a spirit"; and we are told that He dwells "in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor is able to see" (1 Timothy 6:16), and yet He is to be loved! How such a Being, how the great Being whom we reverently address as God, should become known in our tiny hearts and loved by them, is indeed a matter of supreme interest, and it should be enquired into. How God should come into one's

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heart and mind, so as to be revered and loved, is indeed a matter to arrest the attention of everyone. The enquiry of every heart should be as to whether the matter has been faced, or whether we have just accepted the formula of Scripture without enquiring into its magnitude and bearing, its possibility, how it is so. Surely it is important, dear brethren, to look in, as it were, and make an examination of oneself as to the application; to see whether there is really an application of this great fact to one, that he loves God. If one does, the legitimate enquiry is, What is it, Who is it that one loves? For we are not to be content with mere words, the sense of them is to be in our souls. So that if one is to pursue such an enquiry to its end, he has to revert to his conversion. It is always wholesome to take a retrospective view of one's history, looking back upon it to the beginning of it and to determine with intelligence and feeling and affection what one's relations with God really are, and how God came into the mind. Now the epistle to the Romans is intended to aid this very enquiry; it is the presentation to our hearts of God; not in the creation, although it tells us that He is known in the creation, that "the invisible things of him are perceived, being apprehended by the mind through the things that are made, both his eternal power and divinity", Romans 1:20. But then, those invisible things of Him, and His eternal power and divinity are not exactly Himself; yet there is the great thought of a Creator present in the creation, according to Romans. But the epistle is intended to convey to us, not simply that that is mentioned incidentally, but to convey to us God, in His Son, but yet God, and still retaining His place of infinitude as beyond our comprehension. But He comes in in His Son: "The gospel of God ... concerning his Son", the Spirit interjecting parenthetically that He was David's seed after the flesh. He was a real Man,

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but declared, or marked out "Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead". A Person thus knowable in human condition meets us, dear brethren, at the outset and is kept before us throughout. But God is nevertheless there; never ceasing to be what He is, never ceasing to be invisible, so that we can see how the knowledge of God coming into the soul of the believer, of man, ennobles him, enlarges him, lifts him out of the mere carnal reckonings that are natural to him into the realm of God; God remains God, and the believer remains man, but yet God is known, and known so as to be loved. To my mind this is a wonderful proposal! A wonderful proposition, that should command the close attention of every believer, for we are very prone, dear brethren, to live in terms handed down to us or found in Scripture, without investigating the application to ourselves of the verity of them. So that we are in the realm of God as knowing Him and loving Him. But then the epistle presents Him in a Man, so as to affect the conscience of man, so as to affect his mind, so as to arrest his mind; for the epistle is to be read in that way as something marvellous, something to arrest the mind of man; and thus gradually he is let into the realm of the knowledge of God, and elevated morally, taken out of the order of things in which he lived naturally. First we have the "righteousness of God", that there is such a thing as that, not simply righteousness, but righteousness of God; that is, the idea of God is kept steadily before the mind; and then the power of God, not simply in creation, great as that is, but in raising Christ, and then the love of God. When we come to chapter 5, the love side, the Spirit seems to be more active and pungent in His remarks, saying that "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which has been given to us". It is the love of God, not now the righteousness, or the power, these

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are attributes to be apprehended, but the love is more than an attribute of God, it is an attribute of God, but it is His nature -- if I may use that word -- which is only rightly used of God as that into which we come, in which we have part; the word is not otherwise used of God. The "divine nature" is that in which we have part, it is not a question of essential being or substance or form, but of what is made known in Christ, what is humanly expressed, so that we have part in it (see 2 Peter 1:4). Love is what God is, but what God is as humanly expressed, expressed in Christ as the Son, the love of God is actually "shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which has been given to us". Without any explanation as to how the Holy Spirit came into such a position as to do this, the great fact is mentioned that the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which has been given to us. And then the Spirit goes on to say that, "God commends his love", not His righteousness or His power, but His love, as if that is the point before Him, that His love should be known; commended to us, not only shed abroad in our hearts but commended to us, so that we might have an intelligent grasp of it, of what the love of God is. So that we are told elsewhere, "Hereby we have known love" (1 John 3:16); it is a thing to be known, to be realised, of course, by the Spirit shedding it abroad in our hearts, but it is to be known; and in truth the great feature in our knowledge of God and our loving God, is that His love is known. He commends it to us so that it might be known; He is concerned that it might be known; and as it is known, there is response, and that response is that we love God. An immense result, dear brethren, for God, that there are at least some lovers of God, as the apostle says, "those that love God". Indeed in the Old Testament God had a large number of His lovers in view, "thousands of

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them that love me" (Exodus 20:6), thousands of them. Well now, having said so much, dear brethren, one would point out the various, I might say, incidental, advantages, to say nothing of the enjoyment of divine love; for surely the advantages are not equal in themselves to the thing -- that is to the love of God in our hearts, and our response to it. For perhaps the greatest thing that could be predicated about a man is that he loves God; it is great because of all that preceded it in his history. Now the first advantage I would point out is that "all things work together for good to those who love God", a very comprehensive statement and one that has a delivering power; for many are held by adverse things for want of the knowledge of God, like Jacob who said, "All these things are against me" (Genesis 42:36); in result every one of them was for him; Jacob in later days could enumerate those things that he thought were against him, and say they were all for him. I am saying what has often been said before, but it necessarily comes into my subject, the advantages accruing to lovers of God. The advantage indicated in this passage is liberating, it makes the believer independent of, or superior to, his circumstances, however adverse; he is able to arise and make his bed for himself; every bit of moral material around him is usable. Making his bed for himself (Acts 9:34) is a greater thing than carrying his bed already made. In the gospel the palsied man was to arise and carry his bed (Mark 2:11) but Aeneas was to make it for himself. One can have no quarrel with anyone in regard of his bed if he makes it himself, and he can do so, and make a bed suitable, as he apprehends this verse, "All things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to purpose". God has been pleased, dear brethren, to allow much in the way of adversity, and it continues; but He would call upon us to use the material that

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seems to be adverse, as the evidence of love, so that, however severe, it is usable and is working -- it is a worker for good to those who love God, and to those who are called according to His purpose. The light of purpose is intended to affect us in Romans. Romans does not take us into Canaan, but it does give us a look in, and a look in there enables us to regard all here, however adverse, as working together for good to us.

Well now, in Corinthians we have further advantages to lovers of God. The first is in chapter 2; it is a chapter which links on really with Romans 8:28, which gives us a look into the land; 1 Corinthians 2 indicates to us what is there. In the wilderness, as you will recall, twelve spies were sent up into Canaan; they were to see what was in the land, for there is the gospel of place as well as the gospel of righteousness. The gospel of place is the tidings that the Holy Spirit brings to us of what is in the land, and, as opening up the subject of the Spirit in Corinthians, the apostle links on with the passage in Romans 8, but touches on the things that are in the land. We are enjoined in Colossians to have our mind on the things above (chapter 3: 2) and we are told in Philippians to "judge of and approve the things that are more excellent" (chapter 1: 10). Now our passage in Corinthians lets us into what was before the world; the apostle says that he spoke wisdom among those that were perfect. Some of us today were speaking about classification, and it is a most important matter to be able to take account of the work of God in His people. There are some that are perfect; there are some that are only babes, according to this epistle. Those that are perfect are ready for things that belong to "that world and the resurrection", so that he says, "God's wisdom in a mystery, that hidden wisdom which God had predetermined before the ages for our glory". The passage reminds us, dear brethren, of our place,

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not only in the purpose of God but in His thoughts, in the activities of His love, before the world; we were in His thoughts, He was preparing things for us, but for whom? For those that love Him. "Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him". What a voice that is, dear brethren, not only that in a general way we had part in the purpose of God, but in His thoughts, preparing things for us before the world! And now they are revealed, the Spirit of God searching the depths of God, bringing them to us. Have we a heart, dear brethren, for these things? -- things that were before the world. In Numbers, as the spies went up, they searched out the land; the allusion, I suppose, is to searching the depths of God, the idea of searching.

It is God's way of conveying His thoughts to us. It is not that the Holy Spirit as a divine Person does not know, but He searches in us. So we are told that, as they searched, they went towards the south and they came to Hebron, and then the Holy Spirit tells us that it "was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt", Numbers 13:22. That is the allusion here; that in their search the spies came to that place, which was before the world. And if we examine the scripture, we find they came to Machpelah; what holy memories of their fathers they would have! Then there were grapes, too, it was not all death. The cave was purchased for a burying place, the cave of Machpelah at Hebron, but there were the grapes of Eshcol; that is to say, there is living food. For the moment there is the burial, we must all accept that, but it is no barrier to one's look into that world and the resurrection. The Lord says to the Sadducees, "That the dead rise, even Moses shewed in the section of the bush, when he called the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob; but he is not God of the dead but of the

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living; for all live for him", Luke 20:37, 38. At Hebron therefore, although the cave is there, a testimony in anticipation of the power of God, for the men of faith were buried there, there is at the same time the testimony to life in the grapes, so that the spies brought down a gospel; as the writer of the epistle to the Hebrews says, "We have had glad tidings presented to us, even as they also" (chapter 4: 2) -- it was the gospel of the land. One questions how much there is of the gospel of place; there is the gospel of our salvation, which is most essential, but then there is the gospel of place, what God has prepared, things that He has prepared for those who love Him. Are they not interesting? They are interesting to every true lover of God. So that the Spirit searches them, we are told; "The Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God", they are to be brought to us for our enjoyment.

Then another thing comes out in this epistle as an advantage to the lovers of God, and that is that they are known of God (chapter 8: 3). Now it goes without saying that every one is known, even the ungodly are known, they are recorded in the books of God; but that is not the idea here, dear brethren; it is rather that a lover of God has that distinction. Think of having the distinction of being known personally of God, known in the way of distinction! As one might say, not only that one has been presented at court, but one is known in the palace, one is known to the king, so that the king might address one by name. That is the idea. How great a thought that is as applied to God, that one has that distinction, that personal distinction, for it is individual here, that he is known of God. Can anything be greater in that sense than the distinction of being known of God! As He said of Abraham, "I know him"; what did He know about him? He says, "I know him that he will command his children and his

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household after him, and they shall keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice", Genesis 18:19. Is one known of God in that way? Such persons are rare. God has been greatly helping us in regard to our households; some did not accept the thought of household baptism and household piety and house-fathership and mothership, but it is as old as Abraham. Abraham was known of God as no other man was known, as far as Scripture shows; God says, "I know him" -- he was a lover of God.

But then what was the evidence? He says, "He will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice, in order that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham what he hath spoken of him". What a distinction, dear brethren, to be thus known of God! If God were, so to speak, to introduce one into heaven, as He would in grace, for it is wonderful how condescending God is! As recorded in that same chapter from which I have quoted, to that very Abraham He comes down and waits under the tree until Abraham prepares a meal for Him. Now I want you to think of that, dear brethren, of what God is. It says, in the previous chapter, "He left off talking with him", there was holy converse between them, and He left off speaking to him and went up, having given him a command as to circumcision, and immediately Jehovah goes up, Abraham sets to work to carry out the command. How pleasing that was to God as He would look down upon Abraham carrying out the command in his house. The command applied to himself and every male in his house, including Ishmael. "He left off talking with him"; it was holy converse, He carried on a conversation with Abraham, He had come down to it; and then He left off speaking, and went up, and Abraham carried out the command. Then Jehovah comes back with two others to Abraham, and He actually waits under

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the tree until Abraham prepared a meal for Him. Abraham was doing it well, everything was to be done quickly, it would have been irreverent for Abraham to have detained Jehovah one minute longer than the meal required. So that everything was done in haste, and Jehovah waited and partook of the repast, refreshed Himself, wonderful to say! Who can explain it? No one, it belongs to the inscrutable; but the fact was there that He came down, and waited under the tree for Abraham to prepare the meal. Sarah is brought into it, the young man is brought into it, and Jehovah waits until the meal is prepared and Abraham brings it to Him and serves Him with the others. Is that not most touching? And so, as the meal is partaken of, He moves on towards Sodom, but Abraham would cling to Jehovah, and Jehovah says, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?" And so, dear brethren, there is this beautiful touch,"I know him ...". Every lover of God is known of Him. So that, as I said before, suppose one were to be introduced by the blessed God in heaven; we will suppose that Paul is introduced in heaven -- am I stretching the thing? Not at all. God is love, and He comes near to us in the tenderest and simplest way. And so, if He introduced Paul in heaven, what would God have to say about Paul? "I know him". I only make the suggestion, dear brethren. So it is with all of us, we are known of God as lovers of God, and God is not ashamed to be called our God (Hebrews 11:16), and if we were in heaven He would not be ashamed, or be too much beyond us, to introduce us as He introduced Abraham to the two angels -- "I know him", He says. And what did He know about him? What does He know about me? It is for each of us to challenge our heart as to what God knows of us. If He introduces us what will He say about us? He will delight to say the best about us, whether it be great or small; but

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how much He could say about Paul, and many like him! How God loves to go over the traits of Christ in His own, for that is really what is meant. So that He says, "I know him that he will command his children and his household after him". Will He be able to say that of every parent here? of every father and every mother? -- it is a matter of great importance. Lovers of God are known of God and He records what He knows. "I know him that he will command his children and his household after him ... to do righteousness and justice, in order that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham what he hath spoken of him".

Well then, there is the final thought, dear brethren, and that is that those who love God are set over against the enemies of God. In Judges 5 we have the song of Deborah and Barak. They are joint warriors fighting against the heads of the nations, and they overcame, so that they can speak about the enemies of God. Terrible thought that there are enemies of God! It is well that we should awake to the fact that there are enemies of God, they are increasing rapidly, apostasy is spreading rapidly, it involves increase in the enemies of God. But then, over against the enemies of God, there are the lovers of God. Let us stand up manfully to this; lovers of God as over against the enemies of God. What marks the enemies of God is darkness. Judas went out, he was an enemy of God, and it was night (John 13:30); he added to the darkness that was outside. And so it is, there are those who have gone out from us, as John says, "According as ye have heard that antichrist comes, even now there have come many antichrists, whence we know that it is the last hour", 1 John 2:18. It is the hour when the lines are sharply drawn between the enemies of God and those that love God. The advantage here is that they shine "as the rising of the sun in its might".

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What an immense thought that is, how it induces a rallying to the divine standard, the standard of those who love God! The lovers of God are to shine as the sun as he rises in his power. There is great energy suggested, but dominion, too, supremacy, for this is our portion, dear brethren, this is the portion of the lovers of God. We are presently to shine as the sun as he rises in his power -- a beautiful symbol of Christ. How Christ sets out this great thought of loving God, carrying it out to the utmost limit of laying down His life! Psalm 19 tells us that God has set in the heavens a tabernacle for the sun, as if the Lord Jesus is alluded to and specially honoured: He has set in the heavens a tabernacle for the sun, "which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race". That is the wonderful symbol of Psalm 19 and we are linked on with it as lovers of God, the lovers of God are to shine as the rising of the sun in its might.

Well these, dear brethren, are the benefits, among others, accruing to love for God. There is a challenge and an appeal to us, as to whether we are lovers of self or lovers of pleasure instead of being lovers of God. God is looking for our hearts, He is looking for them entirely, saying, "My son, give me thine heart" (Proverbs 23:26), and He clothes His lovers with these wonderful advantages as an appeal that we might rally to His standard, as the lines are so sharply drawn now between His enemies and those who love Him.

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THE REMNANT THAT IS LEFT

Isaiah 37:4, 22, 30 - 32; Leviticus 10:8 - 11; 2 Chronicles 35:17, 18

These scriptures treat of the remnant, concerning which I hope to speak; a subject familiar to us and which has often been spoken of in ministry, but the importance of which stands out specially now, in view of the end so that the quality of it may improve, for the principle is that what there may be of God is to increase more and more, so that as the scripture says, we may judge of and approve the things that are more excellent. As we do, they will give character to us, for what the heart and mind are engaged with gives colour and character to us. Hence we are enjoined; "have your mind on the things that are above", Colossians 3:2. Things above are excellent in quality; they are where Christ sits, at the right hand of God. What a suggestion for us, dear brethren, to be engaged with the things above -- things "where the Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God"!

Now the leading or initial thought of the remnant is that it is God's own reservation on the ground of moral worth; it is something that He reserves sovereignly for Himself; and as applying to the saints now, it enters into the greatest thoughts of the assembly, thoughts that are included in the first prayer of the apostle Paul in Ephesians 1; thoughts which referring to the Ephesian Christians then, apply equally to ourselves now: "so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints". For "Jehovah's portion is his people; Jacob the lot of his inheritance" -- as the Old Testament tells us (Deuteronomy 32:9), and these great pristine thoughts apply to the assembly as well as to the remnant. It is God's reservation for Himself.

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I refer to the passage in 1 Kings 19, known to us and cited by the apostle Paul in Romans 11. Elijah's life was threatened by Jezebel, and this has a present application, for her threats have always been present in the church period since she acquired the ascendancy, since she was suffered to teach: as the Lord says to the church at Thyatira, "thou permittest the woman Jezebel, she who calls herself prophetess, and she teaches". She has been given space to repent, but she will not do so, but will persecute the saints and servants of the Lord as she has opportunity, and as she has often done in the history of the church. Her opportunities are greatly curbed; her power is broken, but nevertheless the opposition to, and hatred of, the saints of God and His servants, is there -- a very solemn fact. Time was when I could not have spoken thus without being arrested, but thank God, she is curbed, her power is broken, but the venom is there and ready to show itself at every opportunity.

Jezebel sends word to Elijah that his life should be like one of the prophets of Baal whom he had slain, and he fled. Then he tells the Lord later that Israel had killed the prophets, digged down the altars, and that he was left alone and they sought his life to destroy it. His speech at Horeb seemed clear and decisive, but it was wanting. He was not in the position to which his commission referred, for it did not relate to Horeb, nor to the wilderness, but to the inhabited land of Canaan, whence he had fled. But the Lord has an answer for him. He pleaded with God against Israel, which is a sorrowful feature in such a great servant, but is a reminder to us that we should be on our guard in ministering to the people of God, for even with servants like Elijah and Moses, the one pleads against the people and the other calls them rebels -- and the Lord is not pleased with that. So the word is in Romans 11, "What says

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the divine answer to him?" The divine answer was glorious and grand as over against the feeble complaint of the servant: "Yet I have left myself seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed unto Baal", 1 Kings 19:18. God had reserved them to Himself, a very precious thought, and every one truly of the remnant today will so regard his position that God has reserved him for Himself. But then there is another side and that is, that there was a remnant left, as Isaiah 37 says, "the remnant that is left". Now that is a word to be noted, referring equally to the remnant of the priesthood in Leviticus 10 and to the people in Isaiah. It is perfectly evident that those who are left are spared; and so I say to myself, Why am I not like the average worldling, or like the infidel? Why am I spared? Because God has seen fit to save me, and to spare me from His general judicial dealings with christendom. It is in a state of revolt and opposition to God, and this is evidence of His judicial dealings; He allows them to go thus far, even today. But there will be worse dealings when He sends strong delusion upon them when they shall believe the lie. So that the word comes to us with power that there are those "left"there are the spared ones of God. We can little take in the disaster that marks the profession, but God sees it and marks it all perfectly; He knows what it means. The Lord Jesus sees it and knows what it means. He feels it, just as He felt the apostasy of Jerusalem, when He saw the city, and wept over it. So too, the Spirit of God is perfectly conversant with the conditions abroad in the profession, and He feels them. He is quenched by current religious conditions; He is spoken against, according to the Lord's words; He is sinned against, and He feels it. God would bring us into accord with His own mind as to the general conditions, so that we might be sympathetic with the Lord and feel with Him as to these things.

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If we are to have part with Him in His glorious place before the Father, shall we not also have part with Him in regard to these matters?

So beloved, the expressions "the remnant that is left" -- and the sons of Aaron "that were left"point to God's gracious sovereign consideration for us, in that we are not amongst those who have come under His judicial dealings. The sons of Aaron that were left were only two out of four; the other two had been destroyed by fire that issued from God; reminding us that "our God is a consuming fire"and that not only the God of the Old Testament, but "our God". Indeed we find that fire is not incompatible with love; it is the expression of love; for what is more useful than fire if we have to deal with corruption? What would have become of the priesthood, or of Israel, had these two men been allowed to pursue their lawless way in presenting strange fire to Jehovah? So God meets the evil effectively, but then, half the sons of Aaron were gone, there were only two left. How feelingly Eleazar and Ithamar would say in after years, We are among the spared ones of the priests! Can we not join in that -- that we are among the spared ones whether of priests or people? If we are spared as priests, it means that we have part in the greatest privileges possible. How dreadful if any one of us should come under the judicial dealings of God as offering strange fire to Him; presuming in the sanctuary to do the will of the flesh. So we have the sons of Aaron that were left. We may thank God that we too, are left; that we belong to those that are spared. How sobering is the thought! How salutary to be reminded that we are the subjects of the sovereign preservation of God, when others have been dealt with summarily by God, because of their presumption in His things; for the action of man's will in the holy things of God is more serious than any other form of sin. If it is

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our privilege to have part in the holy service of God, how sobering and solemn to be reminded that we may presume even there, in the very sanctuary, by the exercise of our wills, and that is offering strange fire in what we present before Him. How heart-searching it is, beloved!

Now to prevent all this danger, we have specific instructions which always attach to the priesthood I refer to Leviticus 10. The chapter commences "And the sons of Aaron" -- not first stating their names, "Nadab and Abihu", but emphasising that it was such people, the sons of Aaron, the priests of God, who presented the strange fire. How solemn a thing it is! So what follows in the chapter is the injunction that no wine or strong drink was to be used by the priests when they entered the sanctuary. Elsewhere we find that no woollen garments were to be worn, meaning that all natural excitement or stimulation is abhorrent in the sanctuary of God; that there should be sobriety and holy calculation in what we say or do; five words with the understanding, five words with the Spirit, knowing what we are saying. We would challenge ourselves lest we should offend against God and present strange fire before Him. Then again, no natural affection or natural consideration for relatives after the flesh was to be allowed; that also is abhorrent to the atmosphere of the sanctuary. Even death itself is not to call forth expressions of sorrow there, for the priests were not to uncover their heads, nor to rend their garments, even in such a calamity as had occurred here. The remnant that is left, those left of the priesthood, are comparatively few today, but still the injunctions remain, but then, all the holy privileges of the priesthood also remain to those who are left. All that they had at Pentecost is ours! All that they had at Ephesus and at Antioch! How great are these things! -- and in the sense of this it becomes incumbent

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upon us rigidly to refuse all that is of the natural in the sanctuary of God.

Now we come to Isaiah, and there the remnant comes into view as attacked. Sennacherib has sent his general to the attack of Jerusalem, and would carry away the people that were left, the remnant, into a foreign land, a land which Rabshakeh said was like their own land. But there is no land like our land! No land like Canaan! We belong to the heavenly land. God has prepared a city and a country, we are told; it is ours, and there is no land like it. The enemy would carry us away from it. Let us never forget that the enemy would carry away the "remnant that is left". So Hezekiah here, with true priestly instincts and humility of mind, sends a message to the prophet Isaiah, and asks him to "lift up a prayer for the remnant that is left". I am increasingly impressed with the value of prayer, as most of us are; it is the secret of our preservation. God is pleased with us as found in the places where prayer is wont to be made. He makes us joyful in His house of prayer. It is no doleful place, unattractive to the young, but a place of holy joy, as we spread out before God the needs of His people, as we see them and gauge them by the intelligence He gives us; as our hearts are moved for them -- for it is a question of the heart, a question of feeling for the remnant that is left. We cannot afford to lose one, and so Isaiah is requested to lift up a prayer for the remnant that is left, and he responded. Then after all this, a letter came to Hezekiah from Rabshakeh, but this time he himself spreads it out before Jehovah. He is advancing in priestly power, he himself goes to Jehovah. How God would induce confidence and boldness in the youngest of us! Hezekiah went up into the house of the Lord and spread out the letter before Jehovah. What a moment for the eye of God as He read that letter! Hezekiah felt what it

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meant as he read it; it spelt nothing but disaster apart from the intervention of God, and he brings it to Him. God took account of it; and with what divine eloquence, in what glorious language does He give His reply! "The virgin-daughter of Zion despiseth thee, laugheth thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem shaketh her head at thee". How stimulating in the house of prayer it is to be made to feel that God is intervening in His great regard for the remnant that is left! He views the position on the same level as at the outset under David and Solomon. The language here could not be more pregnant with significance had it been spoken in the days of David! "The virgin-daughter of Zion despiseth thee". Dear brethren, God would challenge us as to this -- as to whether we are derived from the idea of Zion. It is a great thought with God. "The virgin-daughter of Zion despiseth thee, laugheth thee to scorn". What words are these! It is a soul matter with the daughter of Zion; her feelings were aroused, as it were; whereas the daughter of Jerusalem shook her head at him; it is a matter of intelligence with her; the two things go together. The deep feelings of the daughter of Zion are aroused, as affected by the sovereign mercy of God, for a daughter is one begotten of it, a result of it; it is not merely a child, but a daughter -- a development of the principle of sovereign mercy. She is sensible of the mercy of God, and as it sinks into our hearts, how it softens and produces feeling in us, as we say, "according to his mercy he saved us". How Paul felt it! "God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ", Ephesians 2:4,5. What language is this! One who can say that is a daughter of Zion, despising the wicked opposition of a Sennacherib, laughing him to scorn. I would link the laughter in that sense, with Psalm 2, for God will

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have men in derision: "He that dwelleth in the heavens shall laugh, the Lord shall have them in derision". The daughter of Zion laughs to scorn the opposition, and God would set us up on that ground in our souls. She is called properly the virgin-daughter, the unconquerable! There is no possibility of circumventing what God has set up on those lines: "hades' gates shall not prevail against it". Then with the daughter of Jerusalem there is the additional thought, the idea of a city, involving intelligence as to the mind of God. She "shaketh her head"; the reference to the head involving, I apprehend, the intelligence. That is what she will use against the enemy. What can he do against those who have "the mind of Christ", the mind of God? What will all his books and his wisdom and his acquirements avail, or his scientific mind, as pitted against those conversant with the holy thoughts of God as known in Jerusalem? That is what God is doing in meetings such as these, and in all meetings of spiritual instruction; He is building up daughters of Jerusalem, against whom all the wisdom of the world is powerless. It will all come down, and come to nought, and be proved as foolishness.

Now we are to see how the thing progresses, and Isaiah 37:31 reads, "And the remnant that is escaped ... shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward". These great thoughts are not to be treated lightly; God values them, they are of first importance in heaven. Are they so with us? Are we to continue in them? There can be no continuance apart from taking root downward; they cannot be supported by any shallow growth of the flesh assuming the garb of spirituality; it is only by taking root downward. The Lord Jesus has led the way downward; He has been into the depths. The depth may be spoken of as the fourth dimension; we can take account of three dimensions, breadth and length and

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height, but there is also depth, and the Lord has led the way into the depths as we read in Psalm 22, and in the book of Jonah, and in many another scripture. We are affected by the descent: "He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens"; He went into "the lower parts of the earth". We have to be spiritual to understand that. There is spiritual geology as well as spiritual geography, and it is a question of spiritual geology when Scripture states that "He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things"; and again, "But that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth?" What geologist has ever descended there? It is beyond his reach; but Jesus went down there; He was "in the heart of the earth" for three days and three nights. It is spiritual; it is no mere theory; it is a spiritual thought that He went into infinite depths in suffering for us. Are we then to remain on the crust of the earth -- on the mere surface of things? No, there is to be taking root downwards in the apprehension of the infinite depths to which He has gone, for we are baptised to His death: "We, as many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death ... . For if we are become identified with him in the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of his resurrection", Romans 6:3, 5. It is identification with Him in the likeness of His death, and if that is so, "so also we shall be of his resurrection", bearing fruit upward is the point. What am I doing in secret in the presence of God? How am I regarding my baptism, and circumcision? Where there are secret dealings with God as to the death of Christ, there is correspondence with it in life. He was "raised up from among the dead by the glory of the Father" -- am I to be out of view of that wonderful operation of God? We need to be identified with

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Him there, for we do not want to miss that. It is those who take root downward, who take on the likeness of His resurrection, that call forth the expression of the Father's love, corresponding with Christ in His death; so that as taking root downward, they bear fruit upward.

Some of us were remarking on the Father's desire for fruit. The Lord in John 14 says, "Arise, let us go hence", and then He immediately speaks of fruit "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit",

John 15:2. There can be no fruit for God apart from taking root downward. Ephesians 3 speaks of our being "rooted and grounded in love", as do Romans 11 and Colossians 2:7, and other like scriptures. Let us look into these scriptures and see where our roots are planted -- whether they are rooted and founded in love as learning in love what the death of Christ means; so that as I am identified in the likeness of His death, I shall be also of His resurrection.

Now in conclusion I want to say a word as to 2 Chronicles 35, to show that it is a question of the position of the remnant of Israel "that were present". Many were not present, but it is a question of those who were present. We ought to feel how many are not present in our comings together in assembly. It may be that there are some within the sound of my voice who know nothing of the assembly. It is a comfort if you have a regard for the Lord and for His people, but His thought is that you belong to the assembly; and that you should never be absent from it when it is convened, but that you should be present in all its functions. You know how Thomas missed that first day of the week in John 20, but on the other hand what Anna gained by being present in Luke 2, when they brought the Lord Jesus into

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the temple. She was there present, but though there were those in Jerusalem who waited for redemption in Israel at that time, it does not say that they were present. But Anna was there, and she had the greatest possible advantage in that she met there the Lord of glory! How she exulted in it as she praised the Lord! She came into the temple that same hour, and we are told her age, God taking account of her history, as He does of each one of those in the assembly. Heaven delights to go over their history, and will mention all that is commendable and notable, as it does of Anna the prophetess. Is it nothing to you that you are absent from these great occasions of the assembly? It is something to heaven if you are there, so that the Spirit of God stresses, in these verses in 2 Chronicles, those who were present. And what did they get in for? For the greatest possible passover, the like of which there had not been since the days of Samuel. So you see, beloved, what great things there are in store for those who are present and who take up their privileges. I am pressing this, for we are apt to be so light and trivial in regard to the assembly, whereas the Lord is aiming at what is more excellent; He is aiming at bringing us into the assembly in its true spiritual, heavenly character; that we may be fitted for that glorious time when our employ will be to minister in it to the glory of God. So this chapter stresses, as I said, the superior character of this celebration of the passover, and David is brought into it, and Solomon also; and the most exalted principles and truth relative to the holy service of God are brought into it. There is that unique expression, "Put the holy ark in the house that Solomon the son of David, king of Israel, built"; and all the Levites were to serve "according to the writing of David king of Israel". It says also, "Ye have not to carry it", for it is here a question of privilege, of what goes on inside; of what it is to be

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before God in holy service "according to the writing of David king of Israel", who prescribed the twenty-four courses of the priests, the Levites, and instituted the service of song in the house of the Lord. That is the kind of thing for the remnant in the last days. Is it not significant that He brings to those of the assembly then present, all the transcending pristine thoughts attaching to it -- showing us what it will be presently, when it comes down from God out of heaven, having the glory of God; all that is presented as an incentive for us to go in for, as it is what is within our reach today. These things belong to 'those present', not to absentees, but to those who taking root downward, bear fruit upward, who would serve God according to the holy ark, and according to the temple that Solomon built, and according to the writing of David, king of Israel. These are the thoughts that God would impress upon us, so that there should be something "more excellent" in the assembly, for God and for Christ, at the end before its translation.

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THE WILL OF GOD IN THE WILDERNESS

Numbers 1:1 - 21, 44 - 54

J.T. My thought in taking up the book of Numbers was to confine remarks to the early chapters, those having to do with the order of march or encampment and the service of the Levites, so that our enquiry need not go beyond chapter 4, possibly looking at chapter 8. I have seen the need of calling attention to the wilderness as that in which the will of God is specially asserted, the will of God not as it is seen in Ephesians where we have the counsel of His will and the mystery of His will and the good pleasure of His will, but what His will is in our circumstances. Even though it may seem contrary, whatever seems to be His will in our circumstances is to be accepted, involving geographical position, for the New Testament contemplates the will of God involving geographical position.

W.J.C. Is it the will of God relating to the testimony that we get in Numbers?

J.T. Yes, that is the idea, so that what is stressed is the wilderness. You will notice the Lord spoke to Moses in the wilderness in the tent of meeting. That is what is stressed at the outset, as though God were saying, I know where you are, and I am taking account of it, of the position and surroundings. We are impressed at the outset with His interest, a perfect knowledge of where we are. In that given position I am serving the testimony.

W.B-w. In a geographical position, do you mean collectively or individually?

J.T. Both. I am assigned a position. We have, for instance, "to you that are at Rome", "the assemblies of Galatia" and "to the assemblies of Judaea", "the assembly of God which is in Corinth",

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"I have much people in this city", and many other such statements that show that the divine mind involves geographical position.

J.S. Are you viewing the wilderness of Sinai in a relative way?

J.T. Yes, it is a place of demand.

A.N.W. You do not mean by circumstances the present, do you?

J.T. No, rather geographically.

A.N.W. So that when the Emperor ordered the Jews to leave Rome, Aquila and Priscilla obeyed.

J.T. The epistle to the Romans contemplates them far away from the land of their birth. Aquila's birthplace was apparently far to the east and yet he was in Rome, then he was in Corinth and in Ephesus.

J.S. Would that be true of Peter writing to the Jews in dispersion?

W.B-w. Paul having found certain Jews named Aquila and Priscilla, found them in the testimony at Corinth.

J.T. If the emperor is to command the Jews to leave Rome, they have to leave. They have to serve the testimony.

W.B-w. It is God's will that enters into it, not my will.

J.T. God was speaking in the wilderness of Sinai, one of the worst kinds of a wilderness, but one in which God's will is asserted. I may move to a place for personal reasons, whereas the will of God requires that I stay where it seems to place me and I serve there, even though it be an outpost. An outpost is an important position. There may not be a meeting for hundreds of miles, but if it is the will of God, it is where I am to stay.

J.S. If I place myself there, it is another matter.

W.J.C. You would say that the will of God in relation to His testimony can be maintained and

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carried out no matter what the conditions may be that I find myself in.

J.T. For instance, the man at Decapolis, the demoniac that had been, desired to go back to the other side, to Galilee. Doubtless he calculated that he would have more spiritual enjoyment with the Lord.

A.N.W. Take a brother sixty miles away from the meeting who gets to the meeting once a fortnight, would you suggest that he gets closer?

J.T. That is another matter. Little could be said about that except the circumstances were understood.

A.N.W. I have a case in mind in which the circumstances are beyond the man's control.

J.T. If the circumstances are unavoidable, the Lord may open up something.

J.S. If he is there as an outpost, all is well.

J.T. That is what I meant.

W.B-w. If he leaves, the Philistines may take the post.

J.T. That is what often happens. The man at Decapolis rightly calculated that he would have more spiritual enjoyment in the Lord's company than he could have in Decapolis. Doubtless he would have preferred to go with the Lord to the other side of the lake, but the Lord says, "Go home to thy friends", Mark 5:19. He had no one there but himself. That illustrates what we have in Numbers, that the position is to be held, even if I am alone. There is nothing further said about the man, whether a meeting was formed there or not. There is one thought set out, that he is there at the Lord's will and his being there is resultant in good.

J.S. Nevertheless, as set up in the testimony, he would be found there.

A.A.T. Is John in Patmos a case in point?

J.T. We see that he was there for the will of God, although I suppose as a prisoner, it is not likely

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that he could alter the circumstances. He was there for the will of God, and we see in Revelation what was the outcome of it.

A.A.T. He was alone geographically.

W.B-w. That man in Decapolis showed what great things God had done for him and God may open a meeting for him.

J.T. The Lord must have had some big thing in view. We can conjecture that there would be something formed for God there.

Ques. Would the maid in 2 Kings 5 be a suggestion of one in circumstances that were quite out of keeping with what was proper to her, but who was recognising the will of God and carrying the light of God with her? I wondered if she would represent what one person may do as isolated but faithful.

A.A.T. Is there a difference between the government of God and the will of God?

J.T. Yes, the government involves administration, but it is to carry out His will, bringing into action elements that make His will seem good and right and acceptable to you.

J.S. So what is governmental would make room for the testimony.

J.T. The speaking was in the wilderness, as though God would say, I know exactly where you are and I want to speak to you there.

A.A.T. Is there anything in speaking and not commanding?

J.T. Yes, speaking is communications. There was speaking at the beginning. God says, I will speak to you where you are.

J.S. Do you feel that is worthy of note at the present time?

J.T. I think it is, because God's way is to disperse. The dispersion was under God's government, then there was writing to them. They were not to come back to the point from which they were dispersed,

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but to stay there and to get the word there. The dispersion was to universalise the testimony. Every land was to have something, and it was for those who had the light to accept the governmental ordering as in Moses' case. He was content to dwell in Midian, and what a wonderful result there was! So that the speaking follows the dispersion. You get the great European systems spreading abroad. That is what Japheth means -- enlargement, with a view to the present character of the testimony that, instead of being centralised, is spreading abroad; there is centralisation, of course, but in heaven. Heaven can be the centre of any spot on the earth. European systems have lent themselves to spreading abroad. The maritime conditions afforded that under God, spreading abroad, and then colonisation followed by speaking as in Philippi, which was a colony. There was speaking there.

J.S. How would you view the call from the man, "Come over into Macedonia, and help us"?

J.T. It is not simply, 'Come over to this town', but "Come over into Macedonia".

A.N.W. Acts 8 speaks of them being scattered everywhere. It says, "Except the apostles". With the scattering there is a central point which would answer to "except the apostles".

J.T. Jerusalem still had a central importance. Peter and John were sent out from there. The scattering abroad served to spread the testimony. A large proportion of the meeting of Rome was formed of persons who had migrated from the east, and the apostle salutes them there.

W.B-w. Would these twelve men called sons represent those who would support a movement of this kind?

J.T. Yes, I think they represent the formation of moral weight and influence among the saints who direct all this. They are princes, men, as it says,

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"expressed by their names". The use of the word "names" in this chapter means persons who have acquired a place. When things were to be done, they were the sons in Israel. That is a great element that the Lord calls upon when anything of importance goes on. Sometimes we get circumstances amongst us which are of unusual interest and the idea expressed by these twelve men is ignored. Persons with no experience assume to know better than those who knew about them. It is the want of subjection to what there is as expressed in these twelve men.

W.B-w. It would be a serious thing to ignore what any of these twelve men suggest.

Dr.McA. They would speak with the whole assembly of Israel as set together.

J.T. They were the summoned in Israel, those whom Moses could always send for in any matter to be adjusted or done.

A.P-t. How would you apply this today?

J.T. When matters of importance come up amongst us, let us look around and pay attention to those whom God has fitted to deal with such, because God takes account of them.

R.M. Does the moral state enter into this?

J.T. It is said of them: "With you there shall be a man for every tribe, a man who is the head of his father's house" (verse 4). He is known to be the head of his father's house. Then they are called "These were those summoned" (verse 16). The note says, 'That is, those who were habitually called to undertake the matters of the assembly'; so it is said, "These were those summoned of the assembly, princes of the tribes of their fathers, the heads of the thousands of Israel". That is what they were. Moses did not make them that at this time.

G.M. You would say they were addicted to the service of the saints.

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J.T. That is a good remark. That is in 1 Corinthians 16:15, "I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the first-fruits of Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the saints for service,) that ye should also be subject to such, and to every one joined in the work and labouring". That is the idea exactly. That man would be summoned at Corinth if anything came up. The Lord would indicate that Stephanas would be a man to pay attention to.

W.B-w. It is open for each one of us to develop from the father's house to the heads of the house of Israel?

J.T. That is the normal development. That is what we look for in the assembly. There will be those whom the Lord can call upon to lead in matters.

W.J.C. What is the idea of being head of his father's house? It is not his own house.

J.T. That is illustrated in Gideon. It was not given to him formally. He is called a mighty man of valour: he threw down the altar of Baal. His father did not say 'Nay' to him.

F.W. They were men that had credentials; some thing definite is said about them. It is important to note that they had certain features. They were not everyday men: they were military men and heads of their father's houses. These are two important features. They carried weight with them.

J.T. They were men of moral weight. How they came into it is another matter. They had been at the foot of Sinai: they had seen remarkable things. They had gained by what was going on. These men had a wonderful advantage as everyone in Israel had. These men had profited by it.

S.McC. Does Deborah recognise this when she says, "the people willingly offered themselves"?

J.T. The leaders that led were examples, and others were encouraged to follow.

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A.L. These are called "princes of the tribes of their fathers". As such, they had acquired power with God like Jacob.

J.T. That is what the word "Israel" means. Jacob had become a prince by having power with God and men.

W.B-w. Gideon would illustrate one who developed by overthrowing an idol in his father's house.

A.A.T. Is the tribe feature emphasised rather than the family feature?

J.T. That is the tribe thought; that is on the breastplate. The order here is "all that go forth to military service in Israel"; and then, "with you there shall be a man for every tribe". I suppose they were such as went forth to war in Israel, not men that quarrelled with one another.

J.S. Does God thus take account of their position geographically in a military way?

J.T. That is right. That is what we see in chapter 2. We see how they were arranged in four threes -- Judah and his two on the east of the tabernacle, Reuben and his two on the south, Ephraim and his two on the west, and Dan and his two on the north. Their positions are assigned geographically. Chapter 1 brings out the levitical side, the individuals who form these groups. We have first individuals, then tribes, then the total number, and then in chapter 2 the full thought.

J.S. So that it would be very encouraging for the young to see that God has something definite for everyone in view of the movement of the testimony in a military sense.

J.T. "All that go forth for military service in Israel" -- not that shall go forth. It is not the children of a christian that are in view. They are not numbered because they are children of christian parents: they are numbered because they go forth to war in Israel, meaning that they begin to confess

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Christ openly. That is when you begin to go forth to war in Israel.

W.B-w. They are numbered "according to their hosts". It is the military idea.

R.K. It is twenty years for military service but thirty years for priestly.

J.T. There is no age given for the priests; thirty years is the age for levitical service.

G.McP. What feature would this service take on? Is it defensive service?

J.T. They are already marked off because they are soldiers. The thing is there already before he calls it by name. Those are the ones that are numbered. If we have not gone forth, we cannot be numbered. I think that is important because every young brother and sister here will see that it applies to him or her, confessing the Lord Jesus Christ.

G.McP. "All that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours", 1 Corinthians 1:2.

J.T. They are all in military service. 1 Corinthians contemplates that.

R.M. Why is it the second year that the numbering takes place and not at the beginning?

J.T. I think they had opportunity to qualify here. The military were there, but it is a question of numbering them now. They did not have the tabernacle the first year: things were not ordered, although they went out of Egypt in rank, but after the first year they had the tabernacle. God is there now, dwelling, and what am I going to do about this? What have I been doing during the year the tabernacle was being constructed?

W.B-w. At the beginning of the first year they came under the shelter of the blood, but the second year was another experience.

J.T. They went out in military array, but there is

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no regular order given, no central position, no tabernacle until after their first year.

J.B. Does the military service come in in 2 Timothy 2 where Paul speaks of the soldier?

J.T. There you are already taken account of. You are known to be a soldier, but the point is to be a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

J.B. I was thinking of verse 3; as being there, going forth.

J.T. He does not entangle himself with the affairs of this world. In 2 Timothy he is called upon to bear arms and go actually into war.

Dr.McA. Say more about the first year before the ark was set up. How is the development of my soul connected with that first year?

J.T. See what happened in Exodus 19 and 20, and so on, and take account of what actually happened before your eyes. What use have you made of all that? Where have you been in regard to all that? Have you been a mere curious bystander, or are you taking it in and being formed by it? It was a great learning time in Israel. They were before the mount. It was the place of provision. One would be set to see what was provided.

Dr.McA. So that at the end of the year and the month, God puts His approval upon it.

J.T. Young man or woman of twenty, are you to be numbered? Why am I not numbered? If I do not go forth to war, I am the loser.

E.P. Does the thought of numbering involve the thought of relation with others, and so in 2 Timothy 2:22 it is "those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart"?

J.T. That is what is in view in 1 Corinthians.

W.B-w. In Exodus 14 they go forward.

J.T. That was like a military command.

A.N.W. It would be well if you said a little about

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the "service in Israel". We imagine we are individuals rather than belonging to a great system.

J.T. I think it is well for every young brother and sister to ask themselves whether the word goes round, and the officer or messenger comes to my tent-door and passes by. He will if I am not one that goes forth to war in Israel.

J.S. No compulsory service here.

J.T. They are taken on because they are already in the thing.

W.B-w. Does "going forth" involve coming into fellowship?

Dr.McA. There are many that come into fellowship and do not go forth into war afterwards. A.N.W. All they view is a small group in a locality. It is a great central unit we have before us.

Dr.McA. I was wondering if the tribe was worked out in the local meeting but always in view of the central unit, which the twelve represent.

J.T. Each of the four groups would ordinarily understand where the others were. I would know where Judah was, where Reuben was, where Ephraim was and where Dan was. I would be in the know of things.

W.B-w. I have the whole six hundred thousand before me. I might be taken up with the small number in the locality, but I should have the whole six hundred thousand before my soul.

J.T. Why should the number be given if I am not to have them in my mind? They are scattered figuratively here in every place according to chapter 2. They are in every place where they call on the name of the Lord, both theirs and ours; their Lord and our Lord.

J.S. So that the aggregate number is given to encourage us.

J.T. In Exodus 20:6 we have "thousands of them that love me", not the thousands of them that ought to love Me.

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G.H. Is there a difference between this conflict here and that in the book of Joshua?

J.T. There it is a question of the inheritance. In the wilderness we do not have the inheritance. We are exposed to unknown foes.

R.K. Would the blind man in John 9 be a good example of a soldier?

J.T. Yes, he is a good example of a man that goes forth to war in Israel.

E.P. What does the conflict involve? Does it mean that the authority of God is challenged?

J.T. It is the kingdom, and corresponds very much with Romans. All that is there in the tabernacle was to be defended. Every Israelite would realise that the ark was there, and that it was precious and had to be defended. We have no definite nationalities. There are seven nations in the land of Canaan, but we have no such thing in the wilderness, yet we have to be vigilant. "What I say to you, I say to all, Watch", Mark 13:37.

J.S. It might be internal trouble.

J.H. What is the thought in verse 17 where it speaks of the men by their names? Is it that they make no attempt to gather the assembly of God together without these men?

J.T. In verse 4 it is, "with you there shall be a man of every tribe; every one head of the house of his fathers". It was obligatory on Moses and Aaron to have that person. You notice the word "expressed by their names". It is not simply known or identified by their names. What the men are is expressed in their names. If any one of these men was mentioned in Israel, everyone would understand what was meant.

J.S. Men of moral weight.

G.McP. Do you think Barnabas was expressed in his name?

J.T. Everyone would think of what was in Barnabas.

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Ques. Does the epistle to the Romans bring out men of twenty years of age, corresponding to chapter 1 here; and perhaps Corinthians would correspond with chapter 2?

J.T. I think Romans brings out men of thirty years of age.

Rem. I was thinking of chapter 12 on to the end where you get a list of persons that are judged by this feature, that are judged by their names. He speaks by name of those that he commends in chapter 16.

A.N.W. When you link Numbers with Romans, have you not in mind the chapters on from the twelfth?

Rem. Yes.

J.T. The persons are already there and known to be there. I think it involves the teaching in Romans, the kind of man seen in chapter 12.

J.S. Would you not require the whole epistle to set up a good Roman soldier? You need the whole of it to govern you.

J.T. Yes. It is remarkable how the body of the believer is mentioned in Romans -- a man's size, age and weight -- all these are in view if he is to be in the army. Romans takes great account of a person's body. Those of twenty years of age are fully developed physically.

Dr.McA. Would Romans 12 correspond with the year and the month?

J.T. Quite so. They are called upon to present their bodies. The bodies are under control and are to be presented to God.

J.H. What is the object in bringing in the princes?

J.T. It is leadership. In that way God maintains the unity of the Spirit and of the faith. No local company develops much that has not a leader.

A.L. Would these qualifications that a young

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believer gets in Romans be gained during the first year after he leaves Egypt?

J.T. Yes.

A.L. You do not expect a person to serve immediately after he comes into fellowship?

J.T. He is under the rule of grace. God develops the youthful side. "God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines", so that they might come under the rule of grace. It is coming under the rule of grace that fits you to be a military man.

G.McP. The features of Exodus 21 qualify for service, do they not? "I love my master, my wife, and my children, I will not go free".

J.T. That is where you see the Hebrew servant set out as a model.

W.B-w. The failures in the beginning of Exodus are passed over.

J.T. Yes. They are all passed over to encourage the young. Later murmuring is taken account of, because they had grown up into manhood and are supposed to have put away childish things.

J.S. Would Romans 8:14 bring to light the princes? "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God".

J.T. That is abstract. It involves that the concrete is not manifest yet, but it is there.

A.P-t. There is no age limit given here -- twenty years and upward -- as long as they have ability to serve.

J.T. So long as they are able to go forth.

G.H. The convert is expected to accept the will of God from the outset.

J.T. That is right. God is very gracious. Grace reigns.

S.McC. Should you only qualify for rule in the measure in which you have been established in grace? Grace enables you to rule yourself. "Sin shall not

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have dominion over you". It is the reign of grace.

J.S. Grace breaks down the activities of our own will.

J.T. It would be very interesting if we knew the history of those twelve men as to what they had learned. It would be interesting to learn what God had been teaching them. The history is secret. You go into your closet and pray to your Father in secret. That is not for the public but it shows itself in what I am in public.

E.P. Moses had a secret history; and it says, "these are the names of the men that shall stand with you" in verse 5.

A.P-t. Twelve men named by the Lord Himself.

J.T. He knew them. That is a comforting thing, that God knows them. In the beginning of Exodus, He says, "I know that he can speak well". God knows His man and there is no use in us trying to put anyone forward. In the service it is a question of God operating.

G.M. Would you say that in every little company God has His eye on the leader, and that we lack spirituality if we do not see that one? We should support that leader when we see him.

J.T. If he is the one, he is the one, and God knows it. We do not make him: God makes him. Rem. God orders in connection with those who are to be marked by these princely features in the assembly.

J.T. They are "made in secret, curiously wrought in the lower parts of the earth", Psalm 139:15. He makes His people in secret, "under the shadow of his hand" (Isaiah 49:2), hidden there. You are never told until a crisis that a man was there. God had him there.

Rem. We would make way for spiritual ministry such as digging the wells.

J.T. You see how they shine in this book, digging

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the wells, etc. They are men that make room for things. They take pleasure in others going forward.

They make room for the Spirit. The princes dig the wells.

A.A.T. Were the princes not official, an official set of men as expressed by their names?

J.T. They are now, but they had the place before.

They were this. It is a man who is head; he is that already.

J.S. They gain their moral degrees before they are officially nominated.

-.N. What is the thought of declaring their pedigree?

J.T. To make sure that you are the right man. You have heavenly links away back. Every one of these is proved to be genuine. You say, That is a genuine young brother or sister. You see it in the way she looks after herself. She is not given to conforming herself to this world.

M.C.O. As Paul says, "ye know the proof of him".

-.N. You referred to the word "expressed" being used, but here it is "declared".

J.T. There can be no question about it that I am genuine. I am not a false professor. The pedigree is of every military person "according to their fathers' houses, by the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, according to their polls. As Jehovah had commanded Moses, so he numbered them in the wilderness of Sinai". I wish the brethren would take account of that. They are spoken to there; they are numbered there. They are numbered in that wilderness of wildernesses.

J.S. Did the leaders in Corinth fail to declare their pedigree? They assumed their leadership without moral qualifications.

J.T. They were false, false apostles. Stephanas is not mentioned among the leaders.

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A.A.T. What position today corresponds to the wilderness of Sinai?

J.T. The world, as you are just converted. Everything in it that was pleasure to you before has to be regarded as evil. That is the reason why I say Sinai is such a wilderness. It is the first place where they stay.

A.A.T. They are sobered in connection with that.

J.T. It must have been extremely monotonous as regards surroundings.

A.P. The house of Chloe would be Sinai, spiritually speaking.

J.T. Stephanas represents the kind of thing that is expressed in these names.

W.B-w. Moral precedes the official.

J.T. Yes. The tabernacle was being constructed during the first year, so that it was there in principle but not yet set up. This chapter contemplates it as set up. God is speaking in it.

-.G. It is very encouraging that God is speaking out of the tabernacle in the wilderness where we have these princes, men that have the interest of God at heart and can take hold of any situation that arises; they are the men that are to number the children of Israel. They are the brethren you would look for.

J.T. It is very touching that there is a speaking to you in your actual circumstances, God knowing them well. He speaks to you there. One does not have to leave any divinely given position. The Lord speaks there. You are being built up a spiritual house.

S.McC. It says the ark went before them to seek out a resting place. That would give me peace in my soul when I am in a place that God has placed me in.

J.T. That is additional. That is excess in the wilderness because the ark as placed properly is placed in the centre of the camp. In spite of that, it

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goes before them. He does for us "exceedingly above all which we ask or think", Ephesians 3:20. The Lord goes before.

Dr.R.S. As to the Lord speaking where one is, I was thinking of Moses in those uncongenial circumstances with the sheep, and yet God speaks to him in that wonderful way.

J.T. That illustrates it wonderfully, strikingly. He "was content to dwell with the man", Exodus 2:21. He kept his father-in-law's sheep without wages. He led them to Horeb. That is how he was led and then he gets a communication from the Lord.

R.K. What is the difference between Sinai and Horeb?

J.T. Horeb is more the grace side, less exacting than Sinai. The feature of Sinai is that God made Himself felt there; as we are told in Hebrews 12, even Moses shuddered at it. There is nothing of the flesh before Sinai.

Rem. We need to be at Sinai for a while.

J.T. I think Sinai is the great forming place; what God is. We are under grace, but yet in that chapter (Hebrews 12), "Our God is a consuming fire".

Dr.McA. Is that why Paul went to Arabia?

J.T. Yes, I think so.

A.N.W. It is interesting that Aaron should be associated with Moses in this chapter, verse 3, "Ye shall number them according to their hosts, thou and Aaron". In view of the wilderness condition there is the grace of the priesthood. It is not exactly like Exodus.

W.B-w. And in verse 44, "These are those that were numbered, whom Moses and Aaron numbered, and the princes of Israel, the twelve men".

J.T. "Each one was for the house of his fathers". These twelve men are never lost sight of in this section.

W.B-w. Did you want to go on with the Levites

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and the place they had? The Levites seem to have an inner place.

J.T. You have the whole setting in this chapter, to be opened up more fully later. We are not to take on levitical service as military men. The military are kept distinct. That is why the military are brought in in this chapter. They are brought in here to bring out the full position. They are not to be Levites as military men. We have to view ourselves in a different light.

A.N.W. To carry is one attitude, but to defend and protect is another.

J.T. There are so many more military men, six hundred thousand of them, but only twenty-two thousand Levites. That shows you that the levitical idea is greatly refined. They are the same persons, but reduced by refinement. It is one thing to confess the Lord outside and another to serve Him in the inner sanctuary. "Put off thy shoes from off thy feet".

G.McP. Paul speaks of the "holy apostles and prophets".

J.T. We are holy brethren.

R.M. The Levites are not to be merged with the military. Is that why they are not numbered at this time?

J.T. It is just to bring out the full position. We might assume that a military man could draw near to God. David could not build the temple as being a military man. The Levites represent the firstborn. It is ourselves only reduced by refinement, brought down to a smaller number by spiritual refinement. The age is thirty to fifty instead of twenty.

W.B-w. There is greater responsibility attached to the Levites.

J.T. Obviously. What we see now is the bearing of the military thought on the levitical, so that it says, "The Levites after the tribe of their fathers ..."

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(verse 47 to the end of the chapter). It is a very excellent chapter for us as in the wilderness. The example is that they did as they were commanded to do. The position of the Levites is made very clear so that the military might not assume to do anything in the sanctuary.

G.H. Why are there no Levites on the east?

J.T. It is too sacred. Moses and Aaron are given that position. You get that in chapter 3: 38, "And those who encamped before the tabernacle eastward, before the tent of meeting toward the sunrising, were Moses, and Aaron and his sons, who kept the charge of the sanctuary for the charge of the children of Israel; and the stranger that cometh near shall be put to death". The position at the tent-door is assigned to them. That was purely for the priests, entirely for the priests.

Dr.McA. Would this large number of the men of war and the small number of the Levites indicate how few there are amongst us who really know God well enough to take care of His own particular things?

J.T. It might indicate that. It is more likely to point out that side of you that is to be brought down to smaller proportions. It is reduction by refining, so that as a matter of fact you are brought down to three priests, Aaron and his two sons. We are brought down to what is very small, but it is the excellent quality of the priesthood.

W.B-w. You have to begin earlier on levitical lines. They are numbered from a month old and upward.

J.T. You are taken account of from the time formation begins. You begin to use your senses, your eyes, your ears, your tongue, etc. God says in spite of that you are not to do anything until you are thirty years of age, so you will see the refining. I think that one month of the Levite corresponds with twenty years of the military man. It is really refining

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reduction that is in view. God would impress us with what is necessary for service.

Dr.McA. Everyone born in a christian household could take account of himself as set apart for service.

J.T. A month-old Levite is a christian, but just beginning to use his senses.

-.N. Is that why Barnabas was sent with Saul in Acts?

J.T. They were fully developed Levites now.

-.N. Would you help us in relation to that? It says John also ministered to them. What phase would that have in the service?

J.T. He would be a sort of apprentice. That makes room for another thing. Later on in this book the Levite went into service at twenty-five. John Mark was to write his gospel which was the guide-book for all levites. He would take account of all these features. He broke down, but he was restored.

-.N. The apostle told Timothy that he knew his manner of life.

W.B-w. He discerns between good and evil, and he takes hold of the good and refuses the evil.

J.T. A child begins to look around, begins to use his senses.

W.B-w. He begins to have a spiritual touch about him.

-.G. Jesus Himself began when He was about thirty years of age.

J.T. Yes, that is full consciousness.

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THE SON OF GOD

Galatians 1:15 - 17; John 5:25; Ezekiel 39:11 - 16; Ezekiel 37:1 - 14

The passages will show that I had in mind to say something about the Lord Jesus as the Son of God. What I may be able to say will be but a tithe of what could be said. One's difficulty indeed is to compress what is in mind so that it may be intelligible and receivable into our souls. It is a great subject, standing out on every page, I may say, of the testimony of God. And God intends it to stand out at the end of His testimony on earth. It is a question, therefore, of vessels suitable to unfold it and to maintain the unfolding until He come from heaven -- the Lord Himself, the Lord Himself. The Spirit of God would stress that pronoun and all that enters into it -- "the Lord himself shall descend ...". Correspondingly, as He enters into the assembly, it is as "I myself".

I was saying that the subject stands out from the beginning to the end -- Genesis, Exodus, right through you will find the testimony of the Son of God. And it has to be linked with the apostle Paul, for God had great regard, peculiar regard, for the subject, the sending forth of His Son, the truth of sonship, and made His own selection of one suitable. It might be assumed that Peter was the selection, for it is to him that the disclosure was first made by the Father. The Lord had challenged Peter and his fellow-disciples as to who they said He was, for people are saying much. It was not as to who they thought, but who they said He was. He had inquired as to what men said, who they said He was; and the disciples were not inconversant with what was current, nor would God have us to be inconversant with what is being

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said about Jesus. No one who loves Him will be indifferent as to what is being said by whomsoever about Jesus. Some said He was Elias. I suppose the person who said that thought he was saying something worthy of Jesus but it only proved how little he knew, that he did not know Him at all. Others said He was Jeremias, and there again were men writing themselves down as ignorant of Jesus. They did not know Jesus, did not know who He was, possibly had never really sought to find out who He was. They were not like Zacchaeus who wished to see Jesus, "Who he was". These men that the apostles had heard speaking about Jesus had never made any such effort to find out. Zacchaeus went up into a sycamore and though he had to come down the thought of his heart was to know who Jesus was. These others had not gone to that trouble or they should have known something as to who He was. The apostle James tells us that Elias was a man of like passions as ourselves, and yet some of them were saying that Jesus was Elias -- an ordinary man. That is what unitarians would say and others like them. Jeremiah was a man of great importance, too, heading the list of the writings of the prophets, but he was a man of like passions as ourselves, too, as I need not say. And then they say, "or one of the prophets". As if, well, it is enough to say that He is as great as any of them, Micah, Obadiah, Malachi, just one of them, of those we call the minor prophets. So that the estimate of man was graded, but graded downward. The very best of it was not worth mentioning. Yet the disciples knew. It is remarkable the kind of knowledge that comes out in these apostles such as Peter. Peter knew whether the kings of the earth taxed their own sons or not. He was conversant with that. They did not tax their own sons. Those disciples were greater men than we think they were. They were wonderful men. They were not taken up

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haphazard. God had been looking down the line for centuries in regard of these twelve men, and prepared their ancestors. There were none there like them. I am not denying that they were men like ourselves but they were fitted men. They were not taken up at random but by fine selection, and they answered to the selection. As of Judas it says, "That the scripture might be fulfilled".

So that God would have us to be conversant as to what is current as to Jesus and then be able to give a definite account ourselves. "Who do ye say that I am?" According to Matthew's account (Matthew gives us the fullest account, he gives an account according to his own point of view in relation to the assembly), Peter says, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". So it might be assumed, 'Well, this is the man to preach. He has been given this revelation to preach'. Not so. As far as I know Peter never preached Jesus as the Son of God. Not that he did not know, but these men were so great that they could keep the very greatest things in their hearts until God indicated to them that they should speak about them. He had the keys of the kingdom. Keys are for opening doors and one of the greatest things that Peter did was to open the door so that Paul might come in. When Saul of Tarsus was converted he preached the Son of God in Damascus. When he came to Jerusalem the disciples were afraid of him but Barnabas was not. It says, "He was a good man and full of the Holy Spirit". He discerned something in this young man and brought him -- not to all the saints but to the apostles. They would be the ones capable of taking in his thoughts about this young man. Barnabas was not afraid of him and his introduction of Saul to the apostles gave him an entree there that stood him in good stead. He had a fixed status among the apostles. Barnabas discerned the qualities and the light that were in that young

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man's soul. There was not the like of him on earth. Not that he had the great thoughts of Peter and John yet, but potentially he had far more. And these men were so formed, so under the Lord's hand, so under the instruction of the typical books (they were under the hand of authority and headship, too) that they held back. It is one of the greatest things to be able to hold back, to hold things, to be a vessel. If I cannot hold a thought it means that I am not a vessel at all; I am leaking. Mary, the Lord's mother, represents the great thought, the ability to hold, to cherish things within, in her heart. She would take them out as treasures and ponder them and put them back again, as it were, but in due course they would come out in the house of the beloved disciple where she was in a maternal relation. Beautiful setting for the unfolding of the richness of the treasure which she had! And so with Peter. There was not one of them that was not qualified with this ability to hold things -- speaking only what was needed, what was suitable.

So Paul gives us an account briefly in these verses in Galatians of what happened. He says, "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, to reveal his Son in me ...". Think of the history in those few words! Separated from his infancy -- that terrible man that stalked about Palestine, entering into houses and dragging men and women to the tribunals to be persecuted and put to death -- God had actually separated him years before, marked him off. He had the very greatest thought in His mind for this young man and called him by His grace, as He calls every one of us. For it is simply a christian call he is alluding to, which Paul valued as much as any, but there is the additional thing: "to reveal his Son" not 'to me', but "in me". One of the most wonderful transactions that ever happened to mortal man was

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that. Some of us in Council Bluffs the other day were speaking about divine transactions outside a man, right alongside his head when he was asleep. I do not think there is any formative work goes on in us while we are asleep. Formation requires the moral side in activity. Elijah had been journeying and he lay down to sleep. But God was operating outside of him; He was making cakes for him on hot stones -- a most touching thing -- and He had a cruse of water there for him. That was an operation that was going on right beside him and he was asleep. A great operation went on when Adam was asleep; Eve was taken out of him. The formation was not in him for Eve was being formed, but here it is: "But when it pleased God ... to reveal his Son in me". I do not suppose anyone knows the insides of a man (if I may use that expression) but God; the insides of a man spiritually, how he is constituted, no one knows but God, as far as I understand, and it is in that relation that the revelation is made. "God ... was pleased to reveal his Son in me, that I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations". That is to say, we have a vessel, divinely designed and now formed and fitted for this great service -- one who was impregnated with this thought of the Son of God. He says, I did not go up to Jerusalem after that at all; I did not go up to those who were apostles before me; I went into Arabia. What a time he had in Arabia is left unwritten. I should like to have it written down; not that there might not be something of it protruded in his ministry. I have no doubt that Romans 7 enters a little bit into that experience -- Arabia. It is mentioned again in this epistle, not accidentally: "Mount Sinai in Arabia". Elijah went there. Paul does not say he went to mount Sinai but he went to Arabia, and there was nothing that happened in Arabia spiritually that would not be in his mind during that visitation. It was a learning time. Had he considered

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his own natural inclinations he would have gone into Jerusalem. No city had such a place, but God was taking him out of this world, and Arabia was as good as any place to learn something of that world. The less of the buildings of this world in view the better. The desert is the place -- where there is nothing of antiquity, nothing that appeals to the natural. What a time he must have had! Need I say that heaven was as interested in this man as it was in Elijah? Certainly it was. He was to be a greater than Elijah. Heaven was active, possibly negatively for it was a learning time, and heaven is often more active negatively than positively. We need things taken away from us, this thing and that thing, so that this world might disappear altogether and that world come into view -- the Son of God's world.

So that he had a wonderful time, I am assured of that, and he came back to Damascus a better workman than he was when he left. When he came back to Damascus it says, "And straightway in the synagogues he preached Jesus that he is the Son of God". Jesus, the Son of God. How one would love to have heard those accents resound in that building, be it small or great, in Damascus! Never had the like before been heard. He preached Jesus as the Son of God. God heard that but he had to go through a further process. Still there he was. God had revealed His Son in him and he was to announce Him among the nations as glad tidings. He tells us in the epistle to the Romans that he served, not merely in terms, but in his spirit: "Whom I serve in my spirit". No anatomist can tell you anything about that, what that means, what a man's spirit is. God knows. "Man's spirit is the lamp of Jehovah, searching all the inner parts", Proverbs 20:27. It is a medium through which God operates and Paul was affected by the Son of God. The Son of God had found a

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place in every part of his moral being -- "that I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations". And again: "Whom I serve in my spirit in the glad tidings of his Son". Well, I have lingered on that because it is so great.

I wanted to come on to show you how the ministry is effective and how practical it is. John in chapter 5 tells us, quoting the Lord, "that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live". Doubtless all of us have heard the voice, not what He says, but the voice of the Son of God: "and they that have heard shall live". That is what I have in mind to go into a little during the few moments that remain.

I want to go into Ezekiel. Ezekiel is a book of life, treating of life among many other things, very like John the apostle. Paul labours in this great subject in writing to the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, in fact in almost all his epistles he brings in the Son of God, but particularly in Romans. He says, "Separated to God's glad tidings (which he had before promised by his prophets in holy writings,) concerning his Son (come of David's seed according to flesh, marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead)". That is what I have in mind in these two chapters in Ezekiel briefly so as to make the thing practical, applicable to ourselves, because the passage cited from John's gospel refers to the present time. It is the present service of Christ to us that makes the dead morally (not persons in their graves but persons who are unconverted) alive. That is the present service of Christ. The hour was coming and then was.

Now I seek to help young people here. I may point out that the raising of the dead implies burial. Death implies burial. It was never God's thought that dead people should be left unburied. When God

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said to Adam that he was dust and that he should return to dust, He had that in mind. So that in Romans it is said, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptised into Jesus Christ were baptised into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism", Romans 6:3. Buried with Him. Anyone who is not buried with Christ is lost. Ungodly people are buried. Scripture recognises that they are to be buried: "Let the dead bury their dead". It seems a heartless thing to say but the Lord knew what He meant. The rich man in Luke's gospel died and was buried, but he was not buried with Christ. He was lost; in hell he lifted up his eyes. So that burial with Christ is the point, and resurrection of the Son of God implies not only that one has expired but has been actually buried, like Lazarus.

The first burial we have in Scripture is that of Sarah. Burial now of which I am speaking is in the light of resurrection. It is a precious thought when we have Christ risen in our minds: "Marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead". He raised Himself, indeed. He raised others. How precious to be buried with Him! It is a most precious thing to know that as baptised unto Christ, He has a claim upon you. But you are baptised unto His death and that means burial. His death implies His burial. He was buried. Paul says that to the Corinthians as part of the vicarious work of Christ: "that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he was raised the third day, according to the scriptures". Some here may be baptised but they really are not buried in their own minds, and I wanted to touch on that word in Ezekiel 39 so that we might be exercised about it.

It is the burial of a great multitude from the extreme north, that is to say, those that are far away from God and His land, true of all of us. From the

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uttermost north they will come, a great army into the land of Israel and they will die there. They will die under judgment but it will take seven months to bury them. And I am afraid it takes seven months and more to bury most of us. That is the greatest difficulty, the time it takes to bury us. The question is whether we are buried. Beloved, I speak feelingly, you know. I invite you to look into the Scriptures to see the detail given to this matter of burial. Speaking modernly, they are just those Russians, but they will be in the land of Israel, and their burying place is to be the land of Israel. That is not Russia. The land of Israel has a spiritual meaning. In a sense, every baptised person is in that land, a privileged land, but a place where burial goes on. First, because an unburied person is so offensive. Even a bone after the flesh is decayed is to be buried. Some of us see the bones unburied. It is not so much the idea of offensiveness in them as the idea of identity. You do not want the Lord to find you exposed, identified above ground with the world. The bones suggest the frame work, the idea of identity. Joseph's bones, for instance, were carried into Canaan; carried day by day for forty years as a testimony to the identity of that blessed man who would be buried in Canaan. He had it in mind that he should live in Canaan, but for the moment he would be buried in Canaan. It is Romans 6 really. The difficulty really in regard to our lack of knowledge of the Son of God is the want of the sense of need of Him. If I do not understand the need of burial, I will not need the power of the Son of God. All the people of the land will be occupied with this burial. Perhaps these meetings are for that purpose; we want to put the flesh out of sight. Here is a brother who is very hard. We put a notice on him if we are faithful. He is a brother, but there is a bone of his. Put a sign on that. He is known in the community as unburied, at least in that particular.

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It is remarkable that there are to be people occupied in it officially, too, besides everybody else. There will be people especially employed: "And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it". The burial is so important that the land should be cleared of all that is offensive, that we should go down so as to realise the power of God. We want to get the gain of resurrection, but the burial comes before the resurrection. "Buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead". We cannot afford to miss that, but there is no possibility of reaching it aside from burial. So it says, "and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord God. And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search. And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamon-gog", Ezekiel 39:13 - 15.

That seems to me a very important employ. I begin with myself, but I cannot afford to see the brethren unburied. It is a spiritual matter. To remain unburied is to be offensive.

Then we have the quickening also in Colossians "And you ... he has quickened together with him", Colossians 2:13. We come into the resurrection by faith of the work of God, but it follows on burial. Oh, beloved, do not leave yourselves unburied! If you see a bone, it is my responsibility and yours to put a sign on it so as to cleanse the land, otherwise we shall have trouble. I know it takes courage to put a sign on a man that is unburied, but it is a great service, it

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is a renown. We shall share in the resurrection if we share in the putting down of what is offensive. Chapter 37 is a counterpart although it comes in first. It is a dispensational thought, representing Israel. It applies to Israel's death in the sense that they are out of view and hidden away until God removes the veil. But it corresponds with what is going on, dear brethren, in those who have faith. "An hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live", John 5:25. It is a question of the voice, and so the prophet is taken out to see this valley. You say they were not buried, but they were buried. It is a buried set of people that is in mind. They are seen all together in a valley and the prophet is taken round about to see them. There are many like that today. There is the acceptance of the truth of baptism but only the bones are visible and they are dry. There is no sap at all. They are not offensive; there is nothing about offensiveness here. They are just dry bones. There are many meetings that one could speak of, brethren who have turned away. They think the Lord is with them, like Mary and Joseph. They thought Jesus was with them, but He was not. What a dry company it must have been! What can there be in any company where Jesus is left behind? Nothing but dryness, to say the least. Ezekiel is taken round; he can pass a judgment, and he says, "They were very dry". And the Lord says, You are the man I can use. They are dry. You prophesy to them. It is a great ministry, the ministry of prophecy. Prophesy to dry bones? You say, There is not much hope. But there is. God has already begun to work. They are to be brought to order by ministry. God could do all this without ministry. He raises the dead by the voice of Jesus, the assembling shout, but today people are being brought into life by ministry; not mere words but

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powerful ministry called prophecy. And Ezekiel prophesied. He was told what would happen. He is not working aimlessly. He is told all that will happen -- bone will come to bone, etc. Why should they allow me to be unburied if they are to be dignified in this way, life coming out of death; a wonderful thing happening, bone to bone coming together? Every single man's identity is there, whatever his name was in Israel. All the bones I have shall be my own. The identity of the persons remains. Thousands of years in the grave but the same person comes out, but I am speaking now of the present time when life has taken place in a moral sense, bone to bone comes together. Then the sinews. The bones represent the identity of the person with all the old thing gone, the old sinews, the old flesh all gone, and a new thing entirely brought in. That is the idea. New sinews, new flesh. What kind of flesh? Like Jesus. That is the kind of flesh. I mean morally now. Literally by and by we shall be like Him. He "shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory", Philippians 3:21. Now it is so morally, but a real change nevertheless. A metamorphosis is a real change, a substantial change, so that there is new flesh and, if you please, new skin and all that goes with that. Why should there be skin? For beauty; skin is the groundwork of beauty. How beautiful men are, even naturally, as compared with all other creatures! The handiwork of God, but how much more so spiritually, dear brethren. And the prophesying goes on, the beautifying takes place, but yet no breath. Yet the breath was the most plentiful of all, the Holy Spirit. So that the prophet prophesies now to the four winds of heaven. What a great thought that is, what a great thought when a believer gets the Holy Spirit! He gets a divine Person. It is a great thought, beloved friends. Why should the four winds be needed?

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To bring out the volume, the greatness of the thought, that God gives not His Spirit by measure. It is a wonderful dispensation this. The Holy Spirit is here personally and available to us. Hence the great importance of ministry at the present time, the great importance of prophesying. So that the winds come and the breath enters into them and they stand up on their feet, an exceeding great army. That is what is going on, dear brethren, and one would urge the importance of burial; not to be above ground naturally. Let all that go down, then the coming up -- the power of Christ, the power of the Son of God -- "according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead", Romans 1:4. We come in for that. "For if we are become identified with him in the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of his resurrection", Romans 6:5.

May God bless these thoughts to us as, I believe, fitting that the Lord Jesus as the Son of God should be before our eyes. I am not now speaking of what has been occupying us but more what He is as announced as glad tidings among the nations, and how the process of life-giving is going on, so that we should have part in the great army of God, made to live by the power of God.

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NEARNESS AND DISTANCE

Numbers 2:1 - 3; Deuteronomy 25:17 - 19; Exodus 19:1 - 6; Psalm 148:14

You will perhaps have discerned that these verses contain the idea of nearness to God and its blessed consequences; and, on the other hand, the idea of distance, and its sorrowful consequences. My remarks will cover these points in dealing with the latter first so as to lead up to this remarkable psalm -- the remarkable statement, rather, in the psalm that I read, "A people near unto him", coming in at the end of the psalm into which the Spirit of God compresses the great idea of praise to God. And the position of those who praise is "a people near unto him". This is very attractive to us if we love God. We know He is love, and correspondingly love Him. The suggestion of a people near unto Him is extremely affecting and alluring. We cannot afford, as the people of God, to miss not only the experience and the atmosphere of the place, but the dignity attached to the position of a people near unto Him. "Praise ye the Lord". It is those who, as knowing God, love God. The psalms are poorly understood by us, and not the least by oneself. There are a great many psalms -- one hundred and fifty -- and God has graciously divided them up into five books, so as to aid us in reading and in understanding them; foreseeing, as He did, our measure and the smallness of our receptive and retentive powers, God graciously arranged His thoughts in poetic form, which is the easiest form to retain, and in the division of books. More than that, there is not merely an arbitrary division into chapters, but each psalm had its own setting: the division is inspired, and some of the psalms are subdivided. For instance, some are

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arranged alphabetically so that we might learn under the letters of the alphabet, so that we might learn and retain the whole thoughts of God, the thoughts wrought out in those who love Him. They are the product of experience with God, and experiences with God are sure to issue in love to God, we cannot be near to God without loving Him. The psalms are a sort of finishing education, at least in the Old Testament, and the closing psalms especially are pregnant with the exalted idea of praise, Jehovah occupying supremely the intelligence and affections of His people. Well now, we cannot afford to be outside that realm; we cannot afford to be outside the realm of "psalms and hymns and spiritual songs". We are to be maintained in heavenly and happy, holy, victorious relations.

Now the converse of all that is indicated in the scriptures in Numbers and Deuteronomy. The scripture in Numbers begins the wilderness journey. That is, it begins with the effect of the wilderness journey on the people. Chapter 10 is the great start and there is no complaint in that chapter; everything is according to divine order, and the chapter culminates in triumph. The ark was moving out, and the word was, "Rise up, Jehovah, and let thine enemies be scattered"; and when it rested he said, "Return, Jehovah, unto the myriads of the thousands of Israel". What a glorious setting even if it lasted only for a day! If God can preserve His people for one day, He can do it for a week, or for a month or for a year, for eternity! It is a question of what He can do, but if He is minded to show what we can do, if God withdraws His hand, then it is a sad matter, and the first thing is complaint. There is hardly anything more ready to show itself in us, beloved brethren, than complaint, unless we are self-judged. The last person we complain against is ourselves; it would be well if we began with ourselves, but we do

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not. This chapter and the following ones are just full of this distressing condition, complaint, even extending to the great mediator Moses. He complains, too; he said to Jehovah, You have given me too much to do. As if God were not the God of measure! But I am not here to speak about Moses but to speak about the mass of us, and how the idea of distance manifests itself as soon as the complaint is expressed; and the judgment reaches those at a distance, so that instead of the happy enjoyment which we see at the end of the Psalms, a people near to Jehovah, we have some in the extremity of the camp burned, burned with the fire of God. You may say, That is the Old Testament; it is, but we must never forget that the Old Testament is always the New Testament. If the Holy Spirit uses it to your soul tonight it is as new as if it were spoken for the first time by God; indeed it is written for us, as we are told. If we say, That is the Old Testament, we cannot apply the fire today, we cannot think of God burning people today, let us not forget that the scripture says, "Our God is a consuming fire", not their God, but ours. To us there is one God, He is our God, He is God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, He is our Father and our God, and our God is a consuming fire. It may not appear kind or gracious to press this upon us, but it is imperative our God is a consuming fire. If there be corruption, what can be more blessed than that fact to those who have to do with it, fire is the most drastic remedy for corruption?

So we are warned here of being in the extremity of the camp, it was those in the extremity of the camp that came in for the fire of the judgment of God. One would speak to the young ones here as to where you are in the march. Chapter 10 of this book shows the order of the march in the wilderness. It was not a mob, every person's place was assigned to him in the march, as well as in the encampments. The

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order of the march was: Judah with two tribes, and then Reuben with two tribes, Ephraim with two tribes, and then Dan; four sets of three tribes each. After Judah came the tabernacle, taken down and carried by the Gershonites and Merarites, and after Reuben came the sanctuary, borne by the Kohathites; the position of each was assigned, and what an honour to be marching in such a company! God was in the centre of that array; the dwelling-place of God was there. Anyone using his own will and saying, I know some people in the camp of Ephraim who are congenial to me, I will march with them, I will take my place with those people, would be simply lawless. If you choose your own will, if you are governed by your own will instead of by the will of God, you will never prove that will of yours good and perfect, you will prove it to be bad and imperfect. Whereas the place assigned to you is according to the will of God, you will prove that position to be good and perfect, and you will prove the will of God in it. You may not know the place you have in divine counsel, young christians scarcely do to begin with, their business is to be subject, and in due course they will learn they have a place far beyond their expectations. It is a question not only of the love of God but of the great love of God. If you go back to the rear of the camp, when it is pitched next time you will find yourself on the outside of the camp; if you are indifferent to what is going on in the prayer meeting, or in the general work of God, if it is a matter of little or no consequence to you, you are on the edge of the camp, and the judgment finds you in that place of distance. That is what happens, the spirit of complaint is certain to lead us further and further away, and the judgment of God, whatever form it may take, is sure to find us there on the outskirts of the camp. The will of God has assigned a place to you and if you leave it deliberately, governed by

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some selfish motive, you will fall behind and Amalek will cut you off; you will die away into the world and lose all that is spiritual. Moses says in Deuteronomy, 'Remember Amalek, remember how he cut off the hindmost of you, the weak ones'.

In Exodus 19 we have the heart of God disclosed, at least we can understand it in that way, and you will observe that the time is given. "In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai. For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai"; three months is a considerable experience. God takes into account where we are, and what He has in mind to disclose, He waited for the children of Israel for these three months. You will notice that it is not simply three months, but where they pitched -- in the wilderness of Sinai -- for they were departed from Rephidim, that is to say, from the conflict with Amalek. They had passed that point; I wonder how many of us have passed that point? Deuteronomy speaks of it as affecting the weak ones; they were actually cut off, but Israel as a whole was not cut off, they fought valiantly and triumphantly; it was a pitched battle. The experiences of a believer in himself are the greatest kind of a pitched battle; very few understand it, but it has to be gone through before we come to the wilderness of Sinai and pitch before Horeb. How many of us have passed it? It says here that they were departed from Rephidim and were come to the desert of Sinai and had pitched in the wilderness, and there Israel encamped before the mount. Now, beloved brethren, this is the most important bit of instruction that we can take in. It is a question of our beginnings, and our beginnings are the times of the greatest and most durable impressions; what you learn in those three months will stay with you. One would challenge those here as

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to this passage by Rephidim: how have we behaved in it? What part have we had in it? Have we been one of the stragglers behind or have we followed in the wake of Joshua? This is like Romans 7, a chapter less understood than any chapter in Scripture, and consequently there is a weakness among the saints in practical righteousness, in practical holiness and in practical deliverance. The battle is worse in a way than that by one of David's mighty men who slew a lion in a pit on a snowy day. It is close quarters, and quarters in which one has to exercise one's analytical powers, one's spiritual analytical powers to understand the ground occupied and the difficulties to be met in the conflict, and the forces that are in action; so that the writer of the chapter triumphantly says, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord" -- He is our Joshua. A great pitched battle having taken place at Rephidim, the people were able to pass on, having disposed of this great enemy. Amalek is left behind a conquered foe, and the people can say by the Spirit of God, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"; "With the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin". The analysis is perfect, I have done with sin in the flesh, I have settled the matter. The next chapter brings out that there are lovers of God, not only that He loves us but that we love Him, we are lovers of God. Deuteronomy is full of lovers of God, and it is there that the mediator brings out this about Amalek, but here it says they had passed that point and had pitched before the mount. What a position for the people to be set up and encamped in having passed Rephidim! They are in the presence of these inexhaustible resources of God. God says at this point, Now I can say something about Myself. It is a great deal more blessed to hear God speak about Himself than to hear Him speak about us; He can speak of nothing greater than

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Himself, and He only can speak rightly of Himself. Logos means that only God can speak of God. So we are told here that Moses went up unto God, the mediator is liberated; how simple and how full God is never on our level, He comes down to lift us up, Moses went up unto God. In Hebrews it says, "Let us draw near". The nearer we get the more liberty we have, let us draw near, the way is open. Moses went up into the mount and God says to him, "Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself". God is reviewing the history, but it is history about Himself, it is what He has done. God would have every one of us here to follow this; it is a wholesome custom to review your history even every day, your beginning, extending back even to your unconverted days. It is salutary and humbling; you come to the days of your conversion when God came into your vision, and you began to think of God. You are reviewing now the history of God with you, and He is pleased with that, because it brings you to when He came into your vision and filled your heart with His love and gave you His Spirit. Now, He says, I have something more to say, it is never finished, the idea of Logos is constant disclosure, not in the sense of revelation, but in the sense of what is in the Scriptures that I have never seen. The Lord Jesus carries on that service, and He would come in with an additional thought. So God says to Moses here, "Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings and brought you unto myself". Can anything be more blessed than to know that God has brought us to Him? We are not yet in the land, but He has got us with Him -- "I ... brought you unto myself". And then He proposes what is to

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be done. "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel". One could dwell on these words at length, the position and the proposal -- "all the earth is mine" -- I have plenty of scope, if it is in other hands for the moment, that is nothing, you are to be Mine, and it is all to be yours. How are we to be with Him? A kingdom of priests; we are to be with Him on His terms and not on ours. This leads me to the psalm we read. The Psalms contemplate the terms on which the people are with God, they contemplate that the people are to be with God according to His ordering. We are not to be with Him as a promiscuous crowd, we are not to be with Him in any position that may suit us. The Psalms contemplate David and Solomon, the first book of Psalms is occupied with David almost exclusively, the second book finishes with "The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended".

Why are they ended? Because Christ has come in, and in Christ every thought of God is set out; one great thought is the priesthood and the singers, it is a question of the order of the service that God has set up. The Psalms contemplate us not as a set of labourers, but a people set in holy nearness to God and occupied with His praises eternally. "From eternity to eternity thou art God". What a thought it is! What an incentive to come into nearness to God! We have that holy dignity, there are no forced expressions of praise, our hearts are full, inditing a good matter. Then in verse 14 we read, "He also exalteth the horn of his people" -- the power of His people; you come out and worship God, and God comes in, it is not simply the power we have but what He does with it, He exalts the horn of His people,

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the praise of all His saints. The meeting ends in triumph, it begins very weak, but it is what God does, "He exalteth the horn of his people ... a people near unto him". O beloved brethren, one would love to go in for that, in the place of nearness, and the occupation we have in it of praising Jehovah, praising God and the Father, and the exaltation that belongs to it, the dignity that belongs to it, in this holy nearness. So we are regarded as a people near unto Him, that is our privilege and our dignity, to be near unto Him.

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THE CONTINUANCE OF CHRIST IN THE SAINTS

Luke 24:34 - 36; Jonah 3:10; Jonah 4:1 - 11

I have in mind to seek to show how God intended to continue here what Christ was as Man before men, and in the midst of His own. He said when challenged as to Himself that He was altogether that which He said to them. "Altogether that which I also say to you", He says (John 8:25). That sets out the idea of the candlestick in the type; its own ornamental function is called attention to. That is what the light is accredited by, that through which it comes, otherwise it must remain light without a model, the thought being that the effect of the testimony is that it becomes like that through which it comes, that those who are affected by the truth become like the Person or persons through whom it comes; so that there is not only light but example, or model; so that the formation may be in keeping with it, and thus there is the great continuance of the divine thought, of the thought of God. And in this respect I may say, dear brethren, that all is on the principle of faith at the present time. Christianity has lapsed (and began to lapse almost as the apostles departed) into a sight system, a system that was comprehensible by the natural mind and was, in fact, the product of that mind. It took form among the Greeks and was adopted, and the truth of christianity incorporated with it was so mixed and adulterated and lowered to the level of the human mind, that it has become one of the sciences, that which is called theology; whereas the divine thought was something altogether outside the range of the natural mind, the natural man all the time being responsible, but the testimony was

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presented to faith, on the principle of faith. Luke 7 has ofttimes been produced to prove that forgiveness was to man in his natural state, whereas in truth it was to faith. We have to understand the gospels by the epistles. It is a mistake to read the gospels so as to understand the epistles; the epistles teach us what the gospels mean. The epistle to the Romans says that righteousness of God is on the principle of faith to faith, and moreover in chapter 4 it is said that it is on the principle of faith that it might be according to grace, being the predominating thought in the public testimony; in fact it is that which reigns; it reigns; and "reigning" in Scripture is absolute; but it reigns in relation to what is morally in keeping with it, that is, righteousness. Grace reigns through righteousness, and it would not be righteous to assume that man as in the flesh could be reinstated and set up, for it is said, "Grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life". It is not righteousness to assume that man in the flesh is set up in eternal life. It is a question of faith, and faith lays hold of another order of man. So the apostle says it is on the principle of faith, that it might be according to grace. Man in the flesh does not really relish grace; he relishes works; he will go to a point in regard to works, because that recognises him; whereas God has put the gospel on the principle of faith, so that grace might reign, that it might be altogether grace. Hence, in Luke 7, when the Lord applies the gospel, it is "Thy faith has saved thee". "Thy faith", that is to say no one comes into it otherwise, nor is it intended for any other. It is on the principle of faith to faith, whilst all are under responsibility to hear.

Well, I wanted to show how this thought of continuing was to be in grace, but really that all that Christ was as Man here before men, and amongst His own, was to be now in resurrection, as our text

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says in Luke 24, and that is to be continued. And so in dealing with the subject of life, John says, "That which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes ... and our hands handled", 1 John 1:1. It is a substantial thing that is to be continued. Now I want to show briefly how this works out, dear brethren. It is in the gathered saints, that is, in the assembly as properly constituted that the resources are, the resources for the support, not only for the preaching verbally, but for the support of the preaching by the example of it, by the vessel which is according to Christ, the true Candlestick. And so the two that had been restored at Emmaus return to Jerusalem and find the eleven and those who were with them. The eleven in themselves could not constitute the assembly; they constitute competent testimony as to who Christ was, what He said and did, but they could not constitute the assembly. The assembly is the pillar and base of the truth. The apostles are not said to be that; they represent authority; they represent what is best from God's side in the way of testimony, but they do not constitute the assembly; hence they find the eleven, and those with them, gathered together. And as they were saying certain things -- I wish you to follow this suggestion, dear brethren -- they were saying certain things, and what they were saying is to continue, as exemplified in them and so carried down. "They found the eleven, and those with them, gathered together"; the two that had been restored did not take back seats; it is not well to take back seats until we are obliged to by the directions of the assembly; there is as much will in taking a back seat as there is in taking a front one; it is all a question of order, of regulation, of the spirit of control; they were perfectly free, and although a little while before their backs were on Jerusalem, they are now in it again. They left it, and now they are back in it

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again; and in it, they find the eleven, and those that were with them, and grace prevails. That is one great thought to get hold of; they were saying, "The Lord is indeed risen". It is a place of certainty; the assembly is a place of certainty; it is very doubtful whether persons who do not know the assembly are really certain of things; very doubtful. I do not unchristianise them, but it is very doubtful if they are spiritually certain of things if they do not know the assembly; that is where certainty is. "The Lord is indeed risen". Why put in that word "indeed"? It is to call attention to the certainty that was there. It is no mere orthodoxy like Martha saying, "I know that he will rise again". That is what she said about her brother; that was orthodox, which is cold; but these people were saying, "The Lord is indeed risen". There is no doubt about it,"and has appeared to Simon". The certainty of the resurrection was set out, was expressed in grace. He appeared unto Simon! That is to say, Simon, having been a sinner, one who turned aside, like a deceitful bow, at a critical moment, is spoken to by the Lord Jesus risen from among the dead! Grace is there; grace is reigning there, at least so far as their words are concerned. And then, the next thing is the Lord's supper. The two from Emmaus said that He was made known to them in the breaking of bread. There is no doubt about that; they had seen Him with their eyes. Well now, how are these great thoughts to be continued? It is as they were saying these things that Jesus Himself stood in their midst. The continuance of these things that they were saying, the exemplification of them right down to our day, could only be by Jesus in the midst, known in the midst. Hence, those who neglect the assembly do not pay attention to the Scriptures, though they speak of them; there are many students of Scripture, many have well-thumbed Bibles, well marked Bibles, but

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they know nothing about the assembly. They rightly go by their Bibles, but then we want something concrete. The assembly is the realm of that; it is where substance is, where concrete evidence is, where we learn what Jesus is, not only what He says, but what He is. He says I am "altogether that which I also say". You have got to get that thought, and where would you get it? It is not merely by the fact that Jesus has died, and has risen and gone into heaven; there is more than that, beloved, and if there is one heart who has never thought of it in this way before, I would urge upon him that confirmation is in the assembly and continuance in the testimony necessitate the assembly if we are to have something more than a mere objective Christianity. And I doubt whether those who do not know the assembly (but every Christian is of it) have formation spiritually. I do not deny their faith, that Jesus died, rose again and has gone into heaven, and is coming again, but verification is by the Spirit, but by the Spirit as He brings Jesus to us, or as Jesus comes to us through the Spirit. It is persons who are in the apprehension of the assembly, as I am speaking of it, that continue the thought, the thing itself, the candlestick itself, so that the light shines over against the candlestick.

Well now, I want to show, just briefly, from Jonah, the negative side of what I am speaking of. Here we have Jesus "himself stood in their midst", that is to say it was Jesus really; it was not a representation of Him; it was Himself; it was the real presence of Jesus. Now we have no corporeal presence, but we have a real presence, that is, by the Spirit. It is no less real. The Holy Spirit is quite competent to give us the sense of a real presence, and an understanding, too, so that we apprehend it, and bear about something of His qualities, so that people take notice of us that we have been with Jesus. There are those who take much more liberty with Jesus than they are

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entitled to. The Lord is surely entitled to His rights, and His rights are in the assembly. The assembly forms the sphere of His rights. "The world sees me no longer; but ye see me; because I live ye also shall live". I believe there are many who speak about Jesus, and their acquaintance with Jesus, who nevertheless do not know the assembly, and refuse the truth of it, maybe; that is a very mixed setting, which does not make for a real representation of Jesus, nor for the setting out of what He is as risen and glorified in heaven, for that is the Jesus of christianity; it is not only the Jesus of the gospels, not even the Jesus who is seen in the ends of the gospels as risen, but the Jesus that is in heaven, His own sphere, the place to which He is indigenous, for He is heavenly. The gospel involves that, the bringing out not only of a new order of man, but of a heavenly Man, for "as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly". How great that word is! That is the thought for every subject of the gospel, every believer, and that is to be reflected here; that is really the testimony in its fullest sense -- the setting out of Jesus as He is in heaven. So, as I said, as they were saying these things, that "the Lord is indeed risen and has appeared to Simon", and "how he was made known to them in the breaking of bread", Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them. So that what we are saying to one another, the truth of the resurrection and ascension of Christ, and the grace that goes with that, and the breaking of bread, is all confirmed, all carried forward, by the coming in of Jesus, Jesus Himself! It is no less real than that, the coming in of Jesus known in the assembly. "It is I myself", He says, and He recognises what is amongst us, however little. "Have ye anything here to eat?" That is, we are sustained here by His coming in, and He ate and drank before them, as Peter says, that is, as a real Man.

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Well now, in Jonah we have the converse of this, and I want to just dwell on it a little, so that we might question ourselves as to whether we are of the Jonah class, conversant with the gospel, preaching the gospel, and yet, out of keeping with it. Our converts are let go; he went out of the city; he did not stay with them. He is of the ostrich kind of preacher; according to what was intended to be presented, there was a wonderful opportunity for assembly formation in that great city (I mean according to what we may understand spiritually), and yet what you find is that Jonah goes outside. Think of leaving your converts like that! He was displeased, in fact, that they became converts, and he left them, these converts, to see what would become of the city! He is outside. The Lord Jesus did not stay outside. He came in, and He says, "It is I myself". How many there are who have preached the gospel in our own times, and God has used them, too; there were converts, and they came into the light of the assembly, but the preacher stayed outside; many of these converts were hindered, too, they never got in. Jonah built a but for himself, that is to say, he would take care of himself; he was selfish, but selfishness of this kind deprives us of the best. Unselfishness brings us into the best. Why not stay in the midst of the city? Look at that sackcloth, covering these people, and covering their beasts! Never was such a thing known or seen! Not only themselves, but their beasts were covered with sackcloth! They are worthy people; they are not people to be turned away from. People who repent are respected in heaven. Why should I turn away from them? If there is anyone here who is turning away from those who are marked by repentance, you are depriving yourself of the best there is. You are thinking of yourself, it may be. You are selfish, but in truth you are depriving yourself of the best.

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He went out and built himself a booth. He is going to have a good time with himself! Well, he will not have a very good time, a man that lives with himself, or in himself, or by himself is not going to have a good time. God loves him too well to let him have a good time. He went outside of the city; he left God behind, as we might say. The people were repentant, and God takes account of repentance; God is not going out of the city; God has come into the city; and one great feature of christianity is that it is set up in cities. Paul was told to go into the city; Jonah went out of the city. You may say, Well, it is right to go out of the world; but God is in the city, and God is working in the city, and there is sackcloth in the city; it must be a spiritual thought, for you would wonder where they could get all the sackcloth, to cover themselves and their beasts; it was "an exceeding great city", but there is plenty of sackcloth; it is a question of repentance towards God, and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jonah went outside. It may be there are some here tonight who are outside. It may be you are serving the Lord, and the Lord may be using you, as He used Jonah, and your converts are elsewhere. They have found an inheritance amongst the sanctified; and you have not. It may be you are alone in a booth of your own construction. God will not forsake you; that is not the God He is. He is a gracious God. Jonah had quite a knowledge of Him; so have you. But your booth is of your own construction. I have no doubt that God in grace pays attention to these booths that are constructed by such persons. It says, "God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief". Now this is a very solemn presentation of a certain negative phase of the truth, and it is current. Where people turn their backs on the work of God, even although like Jonah they

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have had part in it themselves, and go outside the city, and build something of their own choice, they say, 'Well, the blessing of God is with us; see what He has done for us; He has caused this gourd to come up'. Yes, God would help you along, because you belong to Him. He never loses sight of His own, and grants them mercies, and you may comfort yourself that you are in a right position because of the mercies, but you are deluded. Guidance is not by providential mercies; guidance is on the principle of faith; guidance is according to what God presents of Himself in righteousness. The light of God in that respect is accompanied by repentance in men. He is moving there; you will find Him there, not in the way of providential mercy, but He has a habitation there. And if you are trusting in the intermittent mercies of God, and counting upon these as guidance, you will be bitterly disappointed. Life is not there. Life is not in isolation, however well furnished your booth may be, however ornamented! Life is not there, and the intermittent mercies of God that come to you there are not guidance, are not assurance, are not intended to be assurance that your booth is God's booth. It is still your booth. The mercy is for you to assuage your grief, but then it is short-lived, whereas what the gospel proposes is long-lived; it is eternal.

And so Jonah is bitterly disappointed. That is the word; you may be sure that you will be bitterly disappointed if you are in isolation even although you may be signally used of God, or if you are not where God is where He is among those who repented.

He requests for himself that he should die, and he has the hardihood to say to God, "I do well to be angry". It is a hardening kind of an atmosphere, to be outside the sphere of the divine operations in this scene. It is a hardening atmosphere. So that there is no change; the mercy of God as it has passed,

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leaves the poor rebellious servant in the same state; there is no change in his state; he is still doing well to be angry. How serious it is to be in a state of rebellion against a God whom you know, for Jonah really did know God; he knew Him objectively; he knew Him to be a gracious God, but why did he not stay where God's grace was operating? Why did he not stay in the realm of grace, where it was operating so manifestly that the king and the whole city were coming under the influence of it, and covering themselves with sackcloth; so that God repented Him of the evil? Why not stay there? There will be no disappointment there. What you come into there really is what is abiding, not a passing providential mercy, but an abiding thing. I am speaking now from the standpoint of the New Testament; you can only speak of the Old Testament rightly in that way; and where you have repentance towards God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ, you have what God can identify Himself with. Why not stay there? Why not find that sphere and be in it and abandon the booth of your own building? You will get in that sphere much more than a gourd, coming up in a night and withering in a night; you will get what is permanent; God is there; the Holy Spirit is there; God is dwelling there Spirit-wise, and as I said already, Christ comes there. So that there is a constant impression of Christ, and those that are there become like Him; they have all drunk into one Spirit; they are satisfied. The epistle to the Corinthians shows that those who form the assembly of God all drink into one Spirit. Poor Jonah! if he drank at all, he drank alone. Christianity is the very opposite to being alone; it is a collective thought. We all drink into one Spirit, we are all partaking of the same food; they are all alike in that sense; they have the means of sustenance there, and they are satisfied; they are not angry. If anger is a

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necessity it is not to last overnight. "Let not the sun go down upon your wrath". There may be need for it; but it is not continued. Those that are in God's booth, beloved, are satisfied. The trees of the Lord are satisfied; they are not complaining; they are not angry characteristically; certainly they are not angry with God; there is no cause for being angry with God; no, if you are angry with God you are in a serious state of soul. Are you complaining against God? He bears long with us, but He is slow to anger. But these people who are angry with Him are not doing well; anger is not one of the works that God has prepared for us to walk in; He has prepared good works for us to walk in, and anger is not amongst them. So Jonah did not do well to be angry, although he said, "I do well to be angry, even unto death"; we have this remarkable testimony to the grace of God to His servant, and God has not changed a bit. If there is anybody here who feels like Jonah, the same God would plead with you; it is beautiful to see how He reasons with His servant, and apparently His servant continued angry. I do not say he died angry; I do not believe he did; I believe he wrote this book, and the writing of the book is the testimony to the fact that he regretted his course.

And so it is well not to continue to be angry. If there is a state of complaining against God it is well to pause, and to listen to what He has to say. It says that the gourd came up in a night, and perished in a night; it was a transient bit of mercy, 'that you might know what I can do, but', He says, 'Inside the city there are one hundred and twenty thousand persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also much cattle, should I not be merciful to them?' What a pleading that is! And what is the thought, beloved, but that we might leave our own booths, and return to God's, or if we have never been in it at all to find it, and drink into one Spirit, where

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you will find satisfaction, for the principle of God's house is that we are all satisfied. A complaining person in it is extraneous, is foreign, it is a place of soul satisfaction, where we do not say we do well to be angry, and ask God to kill us! How poor that is, to put God in the attitude of slaying His servant! He does not do that; He does not do what Jonah asks Him to do. He loves us too well; He wishes to bring us into His own sphere, into His booth, where He is known, where all are satisfied, where the Spirit is, and where Jesus comes. Surely the most beautiful thought in the assembly is that as they were saying these things Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, not simply in the midst, but in the midst of them, as if they were in His mind; they were so pleasing to Him. Hence there is the continuance of what He is as known thus by those who are gathered together, who know what it is to assemble themselves together.

Well, that was what I had in mind. May God use these thoughts to promote the thought of grace, the predominance of it, that grace may reign, that we may be the exponents of it, the thing continued in us.

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THE PERFECTING OF THE WORK OF GOD

John 19:38 - 42; John 20:1 - 23

J.T. The closing verses of chapter 19 suggest to us how the work of God comes to light in the end, although in many cases hidden at first. Joseph of Arimathaea is said to be a disciple of Jesus but secretly and then Nicodemus is spoken of as coming to the Lord, in the early days of His ministry, by night. The work of God comes to light now in the way these two minister to Him in the burial, and then the work that had already come to light is seen as being perfected in the next chapter; indeed chapters 20 and 21 show how the work of God is perfected at the end. You see it in Peter and John and Mary, and in the disciples together in the upper room, then in Thomas by himself, and later in the seven who went away fishing. John would show that the work of God comes to light one way or another and the service of Christ is to perfect it. The apostle said, "... that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus", Colossians 1:28. The idea of perfecting, or finishing, runs through the Word of God.

R.McB. So it may take time to work it out; we find Nicodemus coming to Jesus by night earlier in the gospel, and secretly it is wrought out in his soul.

J.T. Yes, it reminds us of what there is for God today. God's work is very extensive, but much of it is secret: He knows all His own. The psalmist prays that His work should be manifested, and it is to some extent manifested, but perhaps there is much more to be manifested. Of course there is no premium on people who remain disciples secretly, because both these men must have lost enormously in remaining in secrecy. We do not hear of them again. Still the work of God is sure to show itself in time and it is

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illustrated here. It was no small thing for a man like Joseph of Arimathaea to go to the governor and ask him for the body of Jesus, who was under such reproach at this time, having died as a malefactor.

W.H.M. It seems as if they had come out boldly at that juncture, showing how God's purpose was being worked out in them. Are the myrrh and aloes significant as if they had some sense of His suffering love?

J.T. I think that is right. Nicodemus had that. The spices were large in quantity and perhaps not so valuable as the pound that Mary of Bethany had, but they were such as were needed for such a service.

G.M. Why does this work come out in connection with the body of Jesus?

J.T. I suppose the work of God in due course comes out in reference to His Person.

G.M. Isaiah 53 says, "Men appointed his grave with the wicked, but he was with the rich in his death". It was purposed of God, and the men were here to fulfil that.

J.T. So that what was prophesied is now fulfilled in an unexpected instrument. It needed a crisis to bring it forward and it does with us sometimes, the loss of a son or the birth of a son, it may be, to bring out the work of God. That is the object of John's gospel, to bring out the work of God whatsoever it may be. "He that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God". Doubtless there are thousands and thousands of the saints hidden away today; our business is to see that they come to light, in so far as we can help them. In John it is a question of finding people -- several were found by the Lord and by disciples in the first chapter. The Lord found the man whom He had healed at the pool of Bethesda; He found the blind man whose eyes had been opened.

R.McB. They would shepherd every precious

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thought of Christ in the soul. It is John who brings the Lord out specially as the Good Shepherd.

J.T. Yes, that is the thought. It is an occupation that largely marks the people of faith.

G.B. There are a good many Christians, some perhaps in our local meeting, not answering to the work of God in them, and we should seek to help them.

J.T. I believe that is what John's gospel would produce -- finding people. Here nobody finds these men, it is the work of God Himself coming out in them.

Ques. Would John's ministry help us on family lines that way?

J.T. It does. It culminates in the family relations of the saints on the highest level.

Rem. Would it not save us going wrong in the way Elijah did, thinking there was no one but himself?

J.T. I think men like Joseph and Nicodemus would correspond with Obadiah in 1 Kings 18, representative of the many who are secretly disciples of the Lord but remain hidden.

Ques. Is there in this service that they rendered the body of the Lord an underlying kind of instinctive desire to preserve His features, and were these preserved in relation to the breathings of the Spirit in the next chapter?

J.T. Yes, quite. The Spirit He breathed into them would show how He is preserved as represented here. As we were saying yesterday, the continuance of things is really in the assembly, where the Lord is known, and where He comes. They were concerned that He should not be exposed, that He should be properly buried. They were the kind of people who were needed for that service, because it required a certain amount of means to furnish the burial requirements, and they furnished them evidently; we find that in the linen and spices and in the tomb; they had a suitable tomb. So that we must not despise

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people because they are rich, if their riches become subservient to the testimony -- that is the only value they have really. When the rich man is identified with the burial of Jesus he is in safety.

H.L. Is there anything to be said about the garden in which the tomb was?

J.T. It refers, I suppose, to the special place of cultivation. The next chapter shows that Mary attached the idea of a gardener to it. It was right enough here in chapter 19, but to attach the idea of a gardener to the spot where the grave of Jesus was would mean that the garden condition was to continue, whereas the Scriptures had intimated plainly enough that He was to rise again. The garden, of course, would be the place of cultivation which the Lord had recognised. We are told in chapter 18 there was a garden where He often resorted. He impressed on Mary that He was going to ascend to His Father. Mary clung to the idea of the garden as a place of cultivation on earth.

S.G. In verse 38 we have "He ... took away the body of Jesus", and in verse 42 it says "There ... they laid Jesus". Why does the Scripture distinguish between the body and the Person?

J.T. Well, I suppose it is just to stress the thought that the body is essential to the Person -- although He was not in His body then, it was potentially Himself. We have the same thought in Stephen: they carried Stephen to his burial. It is an expression that runs throughout the history of the race, the body represents the person; it is well understood.

S.G. Do you attach personality to the spirit?

J.T. Well, if you begin to analyse, of course you will have to. The Lord said, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise". That is the Person. That is the inscrutableness of it. "Before Abraham was, I am" -- that does not include the body. He took a body -- "A body hast thou prepared me" (Hebrews 10:5), and

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He is identified with that in relation to the will of God, but His Person is inscrutable. But we have to regard it apart in a sense in absoluteness. He said, "Before Abraham was, I am", John 8:58. That does not include His body, because His body was taken in time for a purpose, to carry out the will of God, and He retains it in resurrection and in heavenly glory. We could not know Him otherwise; it is only in His body we know Him.

S.G. I asked that question more in relation to Stephen, not so much in regard to the Lord.

J.T. "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit", Stephen said, just as the Lord had said. So that absent from the body is present with the Lord, but yet without a means of expressing himself, the body is necessary to a complete person: spirit, soul and body, is the formal statement of every person; every person save the Lord Jesus; He was a Person before He became man. That is beyond us.

G.F.G. In chapter 19 it speaks of the body-coat, and the Lord says, "It is finished". I was wondering if in that way special attention was drawn to the precious body of the Lord, and also that the will of God was completed, finished; that was the body to which they were ministering.

J.T. The body that had been prepared, really. So that He says, "I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it". That was in His body. Chapter 20 brings out the perfecting side; we may perhaps carry forward these two men into that side. They are seen at the tomb with Jesus in it: "there laid they Jesus". What they did afterwards we are not told; but Mary comes early, and it says, "On the first day of the week Mary of Magdala comes in early morn to the tomb, while it was still dark, and sees the stone taken away from the tomb. She runs therefore and comes to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple,

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to whom Jesus was attached, and says to them, They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we know not where they have laid him". Now this is what brings out the need of perfection, the need of instruction as to faith: how love to Christ may exist with us, and yet we may be very imperfect as to faith. Her only thought was that someone had taken Him away; her thought does not go beyond the power that put Him into the tomb; someone had put Him there, and someone had taken Him away. She does not go beyond that; but it is resurrection we have to learn. He had come out Himself from the tomb. She was defective in that, and was comparatively slow to come into the truth of it, notwithstanding her devotedness, notwithstanding that she rose early and came to the sepulchre, apparently alone; notwithstanding the energy of love, there was a great defect in her intelligence; she is still unbelieving, speaking in unbelief as to the resurrection.

R.McB. Continuance at the sepulchre was seen. She had desire; her desire was right.

J.T. Yes. Devotedness, the energy of devotedness, but wanting in intelligence, which is the state with many, wanting in the intelligence of faith.

W.H.M. A great contrast to Mary of Bethany, who anointed Him for His burial. She was one who had perfect intelligence, she is not found at the sepulchre.

J.T. Quite; she worshipped intelligently, you might say, with proper measure.

J.M. Do you believe that she anointed Him with the full certainty that He would rise again?

J.T. Well, I think we could put that into it. He had raised her brother.

Rem. She knew Him as the "resurrection and the life". Death could not exist in His presence.

J.T. No. "If thou hadst been here, my brother had not died".

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Ques. It says, "He saw and believed". Believed what? That He had risen?

J.T. Well, it is better to leave it as it is. Because faith is the one great thought. We have to notice, "Peter therefore went forth, and the other disciple, and came to the tomb. And the two ran together, and the other disciple ran forward faster than Peter, and came first to the tomb, and stooping down he sees the linen cloths lying". Notice the word "cloths", not clothes. It is not one garment, it is a question of wrappings. "Then entered in therefore the other disciple ... and he saw and believed". Now these two brethren, as we may speak of them here, exercised their intelligence in what they were doing. They investigated what was in the tomb. If investigation is to be made you have got to go in where the body of Jesus had lain. What had been the state of things there? The wrappings had been in a certain condition when He lay there; well, now they are not altered; there is no evidence of any change, or any struggle, of any unloosing, any altering the position of the cloths. The suggestion is that it was a question of power that was not affected by material things. The Lord went out leaving everything as it was; it is a spiritual matter. The latter part of the chapter shows that He came into the room similarly, the doors being shut, without being affected by what was material. He builds up a state of faith, and a state of spirituality in faith, which is essential to the understanding of the assembly.

Ques. Why do you say that -- the assembly? How do you connect it?

J.T. Well, we do not find the word here, but we find the personnel, the material for it. "It is I myself. Handle me and see". That would be proof to them that it was Himself. Here they believed by negative evidence -- not yet as coming into the company Himself, but by what was in the tomb, in the

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sepulchre. Something unusual had happened. Notice is taken of the linen cloths.

Rem. I suppose they are getting prepared for further light from the Lord. It is like the movements of faith both in Mary and the disciples.

J.T. Yes, they are all in the way of perfecting; perfecting is the thing. So that these two brothers investigated; there are very few christians who go to the trouble of investigating and, of course, correspondingly remain in the dark. People do not look into things.

Ques. Is it the idea of coming into the circumstances?

J.T. Quite so. They saw where He was, and what was there. They entered into the tomb; did not merely content themselves with looking in.

Rem. Perfecting -- you are referring to the thought of faith. Perfecting them unto full assurance in faith.

J.T. Yes. "Present every man perfect in Christ Jesus", it says. The kind of power that is involved in resurrection does not affect material things; it takes you out of them without affecting them. They remain as they were. It is not literal sight but faith.

J.J. In Hebrews 10, the perfecting is connected with the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

J.T. That is perfecting as to the conscience. You never have any more conscience of sins, but perfecting involves formation, being brought into correspondence with Christ all round -- your affections and your intelligence. The great need with the saints is for investigation; we are so casual, content with any little thing -- what do they say? I am with the brethren, I am breaking bread, and the like -- that is about all. Really and truly, you are largely depending on them, not on your own faith, which should lead you into touch with God.

As we were saying, in Acts 14 Paul saw that the

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man had faith. That man heard Paul speaking; he would follow up what Paul said; he had never heard a man speak like that; he would go to the meeting and hear Paul speak. It is interest in the vessel that the Lord uses.

Rem. You do not get everything at once, but these disciples were in the way, and the Lord was teaching them.

J.T. That is right; they are where the light might reasonably be expected to be. Peter already seemed to have some inkling although he should have had more understanding. The Lord had greatly stressed that He would rise the third day, and they ought to have been moving on that line. But they investigate; they go into the sepulchre. Investigation, that is the thing.

Rem. Moses turned aside to see the great sight.

J.T. Yes, he resolved to do it; it says, "I will now turn". It is resolve, determination to have the thing right.

Ques. Why did the disciples go to their own home after they investigated?

J.T. Well, it is hardly to their credit that they went to their own home, but it is certainly to their credit that they believed on investigation. More is made of Mary. She is more honoured, but she finds herself calling the Lord the gardener, it is a humbling thing that in spite of yourself you call Him a gardener, "supposing him to be the gardener". Many make mistakes when left to themselves; they do not say the right thing.

S.G. What would be equivalent today to calling the Lord the gardener?

J.T. Well, you listen to the average christian around, and hear what he says. If you really question him, what does he say about this and that? It is distressing to hear what he does say.

Ques. Would it be wrong thoughts concerning the

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state of this world and christendom? Many think today that they are going to make things better; the world is a garden, so to speak.

J.T. Yes. Of course you could not have a more useful man than a gardener if you are going to cultivate a garden; they bring the Lord down to that level.

G.F.G. Do we see how Peter got the gain of what he saw there, when he quoted this in Acts 2"Neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption"? He referred to it.

J.T. Yes, it shows how he brings the Old Testament in to confirm what we have there. The Lord challenges His disciples, "Who do men say that I the Son of man am?" What are people saying? He supposes that we know what they are saying, and if we are looking around to find those who are the subjects of the work of God we shall hear what they say, and be a help to them in what they are saying. One says, Elias, another says, John the baptist; they did not mean to be disrespectful to the Lord, but that is where they were; they could not say any more. Another says, Jeremias, or one of the prophets, it did not matter much; someone of distinction, that is about all.

W.H.M. In Matthew 13:55 they had said, "Is not this the son of the carpenter?" They only saw in Him the son of Joseph -- not Joseph's Lord.

J.T. Just so. It is in view of the assembly that the Lord raises this question. What material is there for the assembly?

Ques. Is it the work of God that has to come to light?

J.T. You mean Peter and John. Yes, without saying so, they saw and believed, which leaves the thought of faith open; it is very wide in its bearing.

W.H.M. They do not seem to have seen the angels as Mary of Magdala did.

J.T. Well, I think it is to their credit that they

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believed without that. Many would be glad to see angels, and think they would believe if they saw them, but the investigation spiritually does not require that. It is a greater thing to believe without the angels. "Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed".

Ques. What thought have you as to the running and out-running? Is it the energy of love?

J.T. I think so. It is creditable, although perhaps a little unseemly, to see people running like this, especially women, but I suppose it corresponds with the hind of the morning; the word there is feminine, the hind of the morning. So that this is the feminine answer to the power that is there.

A.E.L. In the last chapter of Matthew it is mentioned that the women ran, too.

J.T. It appears to be a bit unseemly, yet the Spirit of God values it. We would like to see a little more of that energy now.

J.J. Peter comes last to the sepulchre, and goes in first. How do you understand that?

J.T. Peter has the lead; John has the lead in running; Peter gets the lead in intelligence, because he entered into the sepulchre. It is very interesting to note how Peter loses the lead sometimes and gains it at other times. He loses it in the running but gains it in intelligence here. In chapter 21 he loses it again; he did not discern the Lord on the shore; John did. John says, "It is the Lord", so that John is ahead of him, but presently Peter is casting himself into the sea to reach Jesus; he is getting the lead again; generally speaking it is Peter who has the lead.

W.H.M. John's testimony here is beautiful; "He saw and believed".

J.T. That is said of John; the way it is put would indicate that.

R.McB. How does this work out today?

J.T. Well, it is a question of investigation; the

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work of God is accompanied by intelligence, and the point is to use it. "Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding", 2 Timothy 2:7. They would use their intelligence, and investigate; things are worth investigating. As we remarked the other day, seven men accompanied Paul on his last journey east from Macedonia as far as Asia, and the first spoken of is Sopater, who was a Berean: that is, in the members of the company the leading man is an investigator, a man who would look into things, and prove all things, and hold fast that which is good. He would not call a man a heretic without investigating, nor would he swallow down a new doctrine without investigating it.

Ques. Is Mary rightly adjusted when she calls the Lord "Rabboni"?

J.T. Yes, she has come to it now. 'My Teacher' is actually the force of it; she had been calling Him "Lord" rightly enough; she had said, "the Lord" when speaking to the disciples. She said,"my Lord", now she says, 'my Teacher'. She is acknowledging that this is where she had been defective. She is like thousands of christians who lack teaching because they do not investigate; they do not go into the sepulchre.

Ques. Is discernment very deficient with us owing to a lack of investigating things before the Lord? If the Lord says something to us we are found criticising, but when a brother comes along with a fanciful thought we swallow that.

J.T. A Berean would search the Scriptures daily, to see if these things were so. That, I suppose, would be part of his daily work, as to things that claim his attention. The Lord said, "Take heed therefore how ye hear" (Luke 8:18), and how important it is for us!

G.M. Would this be what you would look upon as soul history?

J.T. That is the idea. A person who travels

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through exercise should be able to stand upon his own feet in course of time. I think Mary represents one class of christians today and Peter and John another. Peter and John represent brothers who come to the meetings and say the right thing, but they go home, that is, they look after their comfort. Perhaps they are wanting in self-sacrifice; they live at home more or less, and yet they read and know the truth and are thankful for it; but Mary represents devotedness, although it is accompanied by darkness and lack of investigation; the combination of the two really makes up the kind of thing that we need. If you have affection for the Lord you will come into the light; He will see to that, it may be by sending angels to look after you.

Rem. It would help us in coming to the Supper, keep us from closing our eyes and not seeing the brethren come in.

J.T. That is right. I remember about forty or fifty years ago when a brother came into the meeting he would kneel down and pray by himself to God; that is, he did not have the idea of the assembly, he isolated himself.

Ques. Does this soul history begin with resurrection? Those in the light of resurrection would not be hampered by material things.

J.T. Exactly. What they saw in the sepulchre was spiritual; the material things, the wrappings, remained as they were; if anyone had stolen the body of the Lord, they would have stolen Him with the wrappings on; they would not have taken them off; if they had taken them off there would have been derangement. It was a movement outside of what was material; it involved the power of God, and that entered in to make up the assembly. Of course it is within the range of material things, too, it is composed of persons of flesh and blood, but properly it is the spiritual order of things.

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Ques. In relation to that, do you think the graves will be opened at the resurrection? You spoke of no movement of material things.

J.T. I think so. It says of the saints in Matthew 27, "The graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose ... and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many". I suppose the opening of a grave is for testimony. It is not necessary to open it materially for a saint to come out, but I think it belongs to the power of resurrection. They rolled away the stone from the sepulchre where Lazarus was, but I apprehend the Lord came out before the angel came down and rolled away the stone; we are told elsewhere, "and sat on it". That was in order to let the disciples look in, to let them see what had happened.

Rem. I suppose that after the rapture there would be those on the earth who would want to see things, hence the opened graves, as you say, would be a testimony.

J.T. Yes. These two classes of christians are worthy of note, because it brings out the full position as to service. There are those who are intelligent, who profit by ministry that God gives His people; they may go to their own homes, which is not to their credit, but they certainly are credited with intelligence. They have investigated and found out the truth. Then there is the class, and I suppose there are very many, who do not investigate; they love the Lord, and go in for service and many other such things, but know nothing about the present ministry, and never look into it; they may hear it, but they do not investigate it, and there they are, misnaming the Lord; the Lord has to act providentially; the angels represent that side, but the angels, if they come into their range, come in in relation to Christ where He was -- one at the head and the other at the feet -- so as to impress upon us that He is a

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dignified Person: He is God. The angels knew that. People who do not investigate must not talk lightly or irreverently about Jesus.

Rem. The sluggard in Proverbs and he who lacks understanding are linked together. If we are marked by being sluggards we will lack understanding.

J.T. Quite so. What marks these people is their good instinct: the movements that are accredited to Mary are very remarkable, the way she turns herself, turns round. It is to be noticed in the passage, she says, "If thou hast borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away". In verse 14 she turns backward, that is, Jesus was behind her, meaning she was not looking in the right direction before. Now she turns round. People are so much occupied with what they are in, it is hard to get them to turn round, to be converted. You have been in the wrong way, in spite of your love to Christ, and not moving in the right direction.

A.E.L. It is His voice that makes her turn round.

J.T. Yes. "The Lord knoweth them that are his"; but how often He may call us, and we do not turn round, we keep on in the old line.

Rem. You said just now they misname Him.

J.T. I mean to say devotedness carries people here and there, not on the right line.

Rem. She spoke of Him as "my Lord".

J.T. Yes, but she called Him the gardener. She was actually speaking to the Lord, but she thought He was the gardener. I suppose she had in her mind, and I suppose it is in every religion, the improvement of the world.

Rem. So that she misnamed Him.

J.T. Yes. He is not regulating the world, or cultivating the world; He is developing a heavenly place. So that when He says "Mary", she turns herself round. That is what is needed if people are to come into things. You never can tell how much

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God may make of such a person -- one who turns round like that. She is entrusted with the greatest message ever sent to the saints.

Rem. John turned to see in Revelation.

J.T. Exactly. He was looking in the right direction, having seen the assembly, but in regard of the history of the testimony after the assembly has gone, he is called back to see what is happening. He turned to see the Voice.

R.McB. I suppose there is no guarantee -- we might be converted for years and never touch this.

J.T. I think there are very few who touch it, really. It is the instincts that you notice here -- how she turned back, and then round; then how she recognised the Lord's voice calling "Mary", and how she called Him 'my Teacher'. It is a matter of teaching with the Lord -- instruction.

Rem. She responds.

J.T. Yes, she illustrates that side, the work of God without proper intelligence.

G.M. In the first case He addressed her as "Woman". She did not seem to recognise His voice.

J.T. In verse 13, "And they say to her, Woman, why dost thou weep?" The angels say that; then it says, "Having said these things she turned backward and beholds Jesus standing there, and knew not that it was Jesus. Jesus says to her, Woman, why dolt thou weep?" Well, I suppose that is what she was; it is important that we should know what we are, and our place in the assembly.

Rem. Each is apparently regarded individually. Peter saw certain things, and then John went in, and saw and believed; then she speaks of "L" Do you think all have to be gathered up and come together by the message? That is what they arrive at?

J.T. Exactly. What instruction culminates in that message! She would do much. Devoted people go into the heart of China and risk their lives and, of

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course, you would respect them for that, but she was ready to carry Him away herself! Perhaps it was more than she could do. She would make personal sacrifice, but it is not that sort of thing at all; it is a question of intelligence. "Teacher" -- that is the teaching that is needed.

R.McB. Nicodemus commenced with that in his history. He says, "Thou art come a teacher from God".

J.T. Yes, it runs through John's gospel; the first two disciples who followed call him Rabbi -- Teacher.

Ques. Would "woman" represent a mature thought, just as "man" would?

J.T. That is right.

F.A. Would you say a word in relation to the message?

J.T. Well, it is so familiar. It is to bring out the effect of the perfecting of the saints; one might become qualified to carry such a message to the saints in a comely way. She came to the disciples and told them she had seen the Lord and that He had said these things to her; that is all. She takes no position of teacher as many women do today; she is just the bearer of the message, no thought of gift entering into it. And then the Lord points out by the way He comes in -- the doors being shut -- what the new thing is; it is independent of what is material.

Ques. Is there a difference between the saints looked at as "My brethren" and as sons?

J.T. Well, there is. John only once says we are sons, that is in Revelation 21; He does not touch that side: he touches rather "brethren". The brethren are the sons of God. It is more what we are to Christ in this chapter than what we are to God. His brethren, that He has brethren, the result of all these sufferings, and death, and all this perfecting and teaching is for the development of the features of

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brethren, involving intelligence as well as affection.

J.J. Why is it at this point that it says, "I ascend to my Father and your Father"? It is at the moment He is about to ascend, that He brings them into the light of this?

J.T. It is to bring out what we have already had. Christianity is on the ground not only of resurrection but of ascension. It is a heavenly thing. The church is heavenly. So that it says, "I ascend", not 'I will ascend', not an historical reference; it is the principle of the thing. "I ascend to my Father and your Father". He is the One who ascends, and the message comes from Him, and then He comes in after the message, as if He came in from heaven, so that the position is heavenly -- not merely the ground of resurrection, but heavenly.

Rem. The testimony of this reaching the disciples seemed to bring Peter and John out of their own homes again.

J.T. Well, they were there; they were in the upper room; it says, "where the disciples were".

W.H.M. Would you say a word on "He breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit"?

J.T. Well, I think that would bring in another thought, that we need more than intelligence, we need the Spirit of Jesus Christ, it is life; but I think it is more His Spirit in view of their commission. He was giving them a commission, and if we are commissioned by Him we are set up as representatives of Him, and if we are to be representative we must have His Spirit. Philippians is the epistle that opens it up, the Spirit of Jesus Christ; and He commits Himself to us in the commission, because it says, "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained". Remission comes before retention here, which is important, because it is a question of the last days; and if we are found as brethren, how are we getting

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along? We are not charging them with evil, we are rather remitting; that is the principle: we do not hold things against them.

Ques. So that God's thought in regard to breathing into the man would be secured here? Would it be representation?

J.T. That is right. "As the Father sent me forth". As the Father had sent Him He would send them, and they are to represent the Lord that bought them. Supplies of the Spirit of Jesus Christ were given.

Ques. I would like a little help as to what we have in Corinthians, 'calling into presence', and the Lord coming into their midst.

J.T. 'Calling into presence' is too strong. It is "calling to mind". You cannot call Him into presence. The presence must involve His action. Calling Him to mind is not calling Him into presence. He is in your mind, it is a question of remembrance.

W.H.M. I am glad you say that; for years brethren have been talking about 'calling Him into presence'. I have protested and said, 'But who are we to call Him into presence?' It is His act if He deigns to come.

J.T. Yes, it is His act; this chapter shows that He came, the doors being shut, and after eight days He came again.

Ques. Was this a distinct thing as a result? There are conditions to which He can come?

J.T. That is right. I mean you must leave divine Persons free to act. You must never make Them act automatically.

Ques. You speak of His presence. How would you describe it? As an actual presence? We do not see His body; is He present as a spirit?

J.T. Spirit; so that you say, "It is the Lord". It is not easy to distinguish between the presence and action of the Spirit and the presence and action of the Lord. It is the real Presence nevertheless. In the

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Old Testament divine visitations were very frequent, and nearly always angelic; that is, God came in, Jehovah came in representatively, so that the angel came and sat over against the oak where Gideon threshed wheat in the winepress, and the angel talked to him, and presently Jehovah spoke; it was an angelic medium; now it is the Spirit; it is perfectly intelligible, although we cannot enter into what happens, but it does happen. It is quite remarkable if you recognise the Holy Spirit as a divine Person here, the Lord comes in in that way; the Holy Spirit can make His presence felt -- not only His own presence, but the presence of the Lord. You recognise that the Lord is present. It is not merely power, but a spirit of breathing. He is present in the Holy Spirit. He says, "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter", and then He says, "I will not leave you; ... I will come".

Ques. Is it akin to the line of the hymn: 'By the Spirit all pervading' (Hymn 14)?

J.T. Pretty much.

Ques. Would it be on the line of the declaration? When the Son declared the Father, the Father was there present?

J.T. That is right. "Have I been so long time with you, and yet halt thou not known me?" John 14:9. The Father is there.