Isaiah 9:6; Luke 2:41 - 52; 1 Samuel 16:11 - 13; Luke 3:21 - 23

B.W.B. The thought in mind in these meetings, dear brethren, is that of youthful maturity. I have the young ones especially in mind, and I believe the Lord has too, but I am sure there will be much for the older ones as well. With those of us who are older there may be a measure of maturity, although it is not automatic, but it is very good if those of us who are older can maintain the youthful features -- spiritually, that is, of course. We do not expect to have the physical vigour and strength of youth, but it is a great encouragement to see older ones who are spiritually vigorous and alert, bringing maturity into the maintenance of the testimony. I think it has been said, and I think it is right, that God looks for maturity in every one of us. That is, there is a measure of maturity that is proper to the children, even the little children. Then, as we grow up, there is a level of maturity that would mark those who are older, in their teenage years and the early twenties. Then finally I think God looks for full maturity at around the age of thirty. I trust we may see some of the features that work out in relation to this thought and be encouraged, every one of us, to be marked by the measure of maturity appropriate to the age that we have reached.

In this first reading, I thought we should be engaged with the Lord Jesus Himself personally. I would like to say first, for the benefit perhaps of the younger ones, that when we think of Christ in the glory and majesty of His Person, there is no

thought, of course, of development or growth with Him. He is, was and ever will be "over all, God blessed for ever", Romans 9:5. We need to remember that. But in the grace in which He stooped into manhood, He came as a Babe. He grew up to be a little Child, a young Man, and He grew to the fulness of maturity in manhood. I trust we may be able to trace something of that in this reading together. Whilst none of us have attained the measure seen in Him, nevertheless Peter says that He has left us a model that we should follow in His steps (1 Peter 2:21).

So we began with this verse in Isaiah. I may say I always feel a thrill when I read this verse, the glory of Christ seen in the Child born, the Son given, and then there are these five titles. I trust we may find help in opening them up. We might see, even in His coming in, that these wonderful thoughts in maturity were in the divine mind. Literally, the remnant in a day to come will see Him thus. They will recognise Him to be these things. It has been worked out, of course, in the gospels and it is worked out now too in this dispensation.

R.G. It seems a very helpful and profitable line to pursue. Do you think that when God in the beginning said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26), it was really Christ He had in view in this maturity that you are speaking of?

B.W.B. Yes, Adam, of course, was created as a full-grown man. He never grew through the stages through which we have grown, but Jesus did. But, as you say, God had manhood in mind and, I am sure, principally in Christ Himself. He has manhood in mind for every one of us too. If the

Lord directs, we may arrive at that at the end of these meetings, the fulness of manhood in Paul's ministry. We need to remember those original thoughts of God: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness".

R.G. I noticed in prayer you referred to the Lord's personal glories, but also His moral glories. Do you think the line you are on now would suggest the working out of these moral glories as seen in Him?

B.W.B. Yes, we need to remember there are both, and they are distinct, in a sense. You do not exactly mix them up -- His personal glories and His moral glories. Mr. Bellett says in his beautiful piece on The Moral Glories of the Lord Jesus Christ, that His personal glories were largely veiled when He was here. His moral glories shone out resplendent. The four gospels bring them out.

R.G. Yes, that is helpful.

F.B.F. Is that seen in, "unto us a child is born"? A child is entirely dependent on another, seen perfectly in Christ.

B.W.B. I wondered if the Child born would link particularly perhaps with Matthew, and maybe Luke as well. Whereas the Son given is a more developed thought and perhaps would link more with John's gospel.

F.B.F. Yes. And Matthew has in mind material for the assembly.

B.W.B. Yes, very good. That would be what is in mind if we are going to arrive at maturity. You find your place in the assembly, you function there in manhood and womanhood.

T.H.S. Why does it immediately speak about His government? It is remarkable speaking of government as to a child born and a son given.

B.W.B. Well, as we have said already, this verse literally opens up His millennial glory when He will take up the reins of government. The godly remnant will rejoice to see government in His hands, on His shoulder. But then there was government exercised by Christ here amongst His own, and it is exercised now in the assembly.

T.H.S. Yes. I wondered if it linked with what you have referred to as His moral glories. They are not exactly public, but they are seen by those that have eyes to see them, but soon they will be displayed.

B.W.B. Yes, that is helpful. It distinguishes the government of Christ from every other government that has gone before. Those in positions of authority -- we respect them, of course -- are not marked by the moral glories that belong to the Lord Jesus Christ.

R.D.P. Do you think that God particularly has in mind for us to take account of this? He says, "For unto us a child is born".

B.W.B. I think so. You can see in the gospels, especially in Matthew and Luke, how there were persons that took account of it and welcomed Him. When you come to these titles, which I hope we will be able to open up somewhat, I think it links very much with what Simeon has to say in Luke 2. I think he would have said, 'This Child is Wonderful'. He expressed it perhaps in slightly different words, but the meaning would be the same.

R.D.P. God speaks as to Him later on, and says, "Hear him", Luke 9:35. God is coming out towards man in this Child, is He not? He has man in view for blessing.

B.W.B. Yes, everything is based on the fact that God has come out towards us, and in such an attractive Person.

J.G.F. Would our appreciation of Christ lay a basis in our souls for the maturity and full growth that you are speaking about?

B.W.B. I think so. That would be the theme of these meetings. The more we appreciate the moral glories, the more there will be a reflection of them in each one of us, and the more features of maturity will be developed in us.

J.G.F. Peter says, "To you therefore who believe is the preciousness", 1 Peter 2:7.

B.W.B. Very good. We treasure what we see to be precious.

C.E.H. Is it instructive that very mature thoughts were connected with Christ immediately He came into manhood to save His people from their sins? "He shall be great ... and of his kingdom there shall not be an end", Luke 1:32, 33. And then the magi: "Where is the king of the Jews that has been born?" Matthew 2:2. These are very mature thoughts that the Spirit of God brought forward immediately the Lord came into manhood.

B.W.B. And "Emmanuel ... 'God with us'". Matthew 1:23. That was my impression in relation to this verse. It refers to His coming in, the Child born, the Son given, but you have these wonderful titles, showing that maturity was there in the mind of God. Although in wonderful grace the Lord Jesus grew through babyhood, to being a young Boy, into boyhood and manhood, and then into full maturity when He was sent out in public service, which we may come to in the last scripture in this reading.

C.E.H. There were stages through which the Lord passed which are really educational for us. As you said, the Model is there, and does that really show us how we may come into manhood?

B.W.B. I think so. We cannot assume to compass the divine mind in relation to Jesus coming in as a Babe, but I think that would be one of the thoughts that was in God's mind, that the Lord Jesus should represent each of those stages, to demonstrate to us all what He is looking for in each stage, and also, of course, that the Lord Jesus felt and experienced the things that we all go through. Every one here who is under thirty-three, the Lord Jesus was that age at one point. What did He do? Am I doing those kind of things in any measure at all? You see, the things that Jesus did are not characteristic of the world's young at the present moment, or the old either.

D.M.C. We distinguish with the Lord that "in Him sin is not", 1 John 3:5.

B.W.B. I am glad you say that. We should always remember that, of course. Though He went through every stage through which we go, at every point in Him sin is not.

P.A.G. You have referred to these titles. It says it is "his name". It is not 'his names'. Why is it just "his name"?

B.W.B. It is a five-fold name. The fact that it is five normally links with the idea of human weakness. I wondered whether it might bear the suggestion that although the Lord was pleased to take that condition, even in human weakness here, yet in that very condition He was magnified by this five-fold title which is capable of tremendous expansion. Perhaps you had some thought?

P.A.G. Would the five-fold title be the answer to every human weakness?

B.W.B. Yes, I think that puts it very succinctly. My feeling is that these five titles link in a way with the four gospels. Having pondered it a little, I think "Wonderful" embraces the whole of the four gospels. You can read them through and you can see what is wonderful in every detail. His own came to that, when He stilled the waters, for instance.

T.H.S. Would it be a feature of maturity that all these moral features blend perfectly in Christ? One name, and yet there is some variety here -- all together, nothing predominant.

B.W.B. Yes, it was said by J.N.D. as to the gospels, that there was not anything predominant in the personality of Christ ⁺. Those moral glories were all blended together like the fine flour mingled with oil. I think J.T. also said that, if anything, perhaps grace predominated. I think the idea of blending together is helpful, and the gospels blend together to make a four-fold picture of the life of Jesus here. It is complete as far as we need to have the record.

J.L. Is the five, in that way, a surpassing testimony to the wonder of divine grace, the way that God had come so near, and coming in as a Child made that grace so appealing?

B.W.B. Yes, He has come within our range in that way. He was so approachable. The Babe, the Child, were so approachable.

J.L. Yes, I thought that. Simeon says, "Now thou lettest thy bondman go" (Luke 2:29), as if he grasped that everything was there in the

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Child, and yet it was a Child that he could receive into his arms.

B.W.B. I was just thinking that: he took the Child in his arms, very beautiful. And yet that Child was none less than God over all, blessed for ever. So as to this name Wonderful, the ancient world had its seven wonders, or perhaps more, and the present world has its apparent wonders too. I would like the young ones especially to see this, that there is what is wonderful in Christ that far exceeds anything this world has ever produced, or looked on with favour, and He will abide when it has all gone. Let us see how wonderful Jesus is, and actually realise in soul history that it is so.

J.H.H. How do we arrive at that?

B.W.B. I suppose we go into His presence. When the disciples were actually in His presence, at least when they were concentrating, they would have had an impression of the greatness of the Person that was there. We have already said they would have had an impression of His moral glories. He would have towered over them. They would have seen the way He healed and dealt with many and, as we have said already, stilled the waves. They would have seen the wonder that was there in the Person.

J.H.H. I was thinking about contemplating His glory. We need to enter into His presence to do that. I suppose the more we do it, then the more conformed we will be to Him.

B.W.B. And I think the Spirit would promote that too in our hearts. He would bring out the wonders that are in that Person.

D.M.C. The woman said, "If I should only touch His garment I shall be healed", Matthew 9:21.

Do you think the touch of the Lord is what we all need, especially the children?

B.W.B. Yes, nothing can be a substitute for that. You would encourage the young ones to get into His presence. A few moments spent in His presence will exceed anything else. It is good to read the Scriptures, good to read the ministry, but a few moments in His presence -- I speak carefully -- are worth more.

T.H.S. All the wonders of the world are marked by deterioration, but when it comes to this "Wonderful", it is the same.

B.W.B. I was thinking that. Most of those seven wonders of the world have crumbled to dust. There are a few still around, but this Person is the stone cut out without hands. He is going to bring the whole image of this world crashing down.

N.E.L. Did Abraham have some experience of that? He was called out and he progressed in company with God until he was waiting for what God was going to bring in in a future day.

B.W.B. That is interesting. He went out from the place, I suppose, that was the centre of the world's civilisation at that time. He had probably known its up-to-date inventions and facilities and so on. He went out to dwell in tents in the land of promise. He found the promise of God to be much more wonderful. The oaks of Mamre would be far better than the buildings in Ur of the Chaldees. I wonder if the young ones could get a touch of that, and all of us, for that matter.

F.B.F. Do you think this title, "Wonderful", would involve that we remember His deity, who He is, and there would be a reverence in addressing Christ and a realisation that He has the wisdom and the power to meet every problem and every

difficulty? So there is great sufficiency lying behind this title, "Wonderful".

B.W.B. That is very helpful. These titles allude to His manhood, but the glory of His deity shines in it. J.T. said that ⁺. It is clear that no one but One who is in His Person God over all, blessed for ever, could display these things in their completeness and maturity.

F.B.F. And this will contribute to the service of praise to God. Do you think when we worship the Lord and address the Lord, there is a reverence connected with it? There is something beyond us that we shall never understand.

B.W.B. Yes, because that will be our eternal employ. We will never exhaust it. I was thankful for the hymn you gave out at the beginning (Hymn 232) because the spring of that is the sense we have of the glories of Christ and it brings out that response: 'Worthy art Thou!'

C.E.H. Say something as to the scripture, "This is of the Lord, and it is wonderful in our eyes", Matthew 21:42. Would it show that all the wonder that was here in Christ involved the power of resurrection? That was carried right through and is now seen in Himself. "The stone which they that builded rejected, this has become the corner-stone", that is christianity in substance. It is wonderful.

B.W.B. Yes, in that verse the Lord was calling attention to Himself as the corner-stone -- the standard of all divine building.

R.D.P. Does the wonderful character of the Person come out in that scripture we read in Luke 2? They "were astonished at his understanding and

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answers", and His parents were amazed. I wondered if that would link with the maturity that was in the Person at that stage, which was truly wonderful.

B.W.B. Yes, I think so. You can carry these things through the later scriptures, I am sure. As the Lord grew and developed into boyhood and manhood, these features did not disappear. All these moral glories were there.

J.P. I was thinking of the scripture which says, "How is it that thou askest after my name, seeing it is wonderful?" Judges 13:18. Would that give an impression of the glory and majesty of it?

B.W.B. Yes, there was a certain expression there of inscrutability. I think that would be involved here too. As has been said, you cannot exhaust it; it is beyond our full definition.

We should now say something about the "Counsellor".

J.G.F. Is this matter of counsel something that each of us can get the gain of, even the youngest? I was thinking that the Lord says, "But I say unto you", Matthew 5:22. There were many other voices. Mary too sat at His feet, listening to His word (Luke 10:39).

B.W.B. I thought that the Counsellor had some link with Matthew's gospel, which brings in a line of instruction quite different from what had gone before. As you say, in chapters 5, 6 and 7, the Lord repeatedly says, "But I say unto you", and He gives them the teaching of His kingdom. That enters into the word to Laodicea too. "I counsel thee to buy of me gold ...." Revelation 3:18.

J.G.F. Does the word of the psalmist help? It says, "I will counsel thee with mine eye upon

thee", Psalm 32:8. It is in nearness to Christ we would get right counsel.

B.W.B. Yes, I thought of that verse. It seems to bring out the affections of God Himself. "I will counsel thee with mine eye upon thee". Every one here could take that for themselves: God's eye is upon you and He would counsel you. He may have to counsel you to turn from the way which you are on, if it is not a way that is pleasing to Him. On the other hand, if you are pleasing Him He would counsel you in confirmation.

P.H.B. Would it suggest a richness of resource that is with Him?

B.W.B. Yes. "Christ ... has been made to us wisdom", 1 Corinthians 1:30. There is no problem the saints, either individually or collectively, have to face to which the Lord has not the answer. We may not always get it because we do not perhaps wait on Him as we should.

P.H.B. I am sure that is right. We can prove it in a very real way.

B.W.B. The idea of a counsellor is one who has implicit wisdom and can look at the problem from all directions, which we may not always be able to do. The Lord Jesus can do that, and if we wait on Him, I believe counsel will come.

F.B.F. Is it linked with God's purpose? There is God's purpose, and then there is His counsel that carries out His purpose.

B.W.B. Yes. Then His ways come in to give effect to it.

F.B.F. Every believer here was thought of in God's counsel before the worlds were. It is good to get a sense that God had His eye upon us in His sovereign mercy before time was.

B.W.B. Yes, very good. So divine Persons are never taken by surprise. We may be, but we can always turn to the One who knew the thing long before, knew what we were going to face in our exercises, and has the answer.

F.B.F. "Vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory", Romans 9:23. Would that enter into this great matter of Counsellor?

B.W.B. Yes. What beautiful plans God has made!

J.L. Would it have a link with the good pleasure of God's will to head up everything in the Christ? Will there be resource found in Him for the filling out of everything in the universe to come?

B.W.B. I think that helps. In a way, these five titles put together would bring out the headship of Christ. There is infinite resource there in the Head for direction in all these things -- the counsel and direction.

R.G. I was wondering on that line as to the way they are set together: "Wonderful ... Mighty God, Father of Eternity", but you also have "Counsellor ... Prince of Peace". It suggests the activities of a divine Person in the presence of need. Is that what brings out the moral worth of the Lord Jesus?

B.W.B. That is why they link with the gospels. That is just what the gospels are -- a divine Person here in the presence of need, and not only that, but meeting it too, and meeting it to divine glory. As you know, in Luke's gospel, most of the trophies of grace glorified God. At the end you have a company "in the temple praising and blessing God", Luke 24:53.

R.G. Is that a direct word for us then in this phase of the testimony when things are outwardly

so weak? But what God is working at is to bring out maturity in the saints, and the fact that Christ is maintaining things suggests that it will be so.

B.W.B. Yes. I think that helps, and we should seek to be with God in what He is doing.

T.H.S. You had some purpose in referring earlier to the word to Laodicea. The counsel relates to gold and white clothing and eye-salve. Can you say something as to that?

B.W.B. It shows that the Lord has the resources to meet every exigency in the testimony.

C.E.H. In connection with what has been mentioned, is it instructive that the Lord says to Laodicea, "I counsel thee"? Revelation 3:18. Is that a comfort to us in the sorrows of the testimony, the current position of it, that the Lord has wisdom to help us in all matters, and He counsels us to take certain ground?

B.W.B. Yes, even in the final condition in Laodicea. There is a way through for the overcomer in Laodicea.

Then this title, "Mighty God", -- I wondered if it would link with the fulness of John's gospel. "I am he", John 18:5. There are many references in John to "I am", for instance, "I am the light of the world", John 8:12.

R.G. Does that enhance the grace of the One who came in? That is who He was in His Person, and yet in John 13 He washed the disciples' feet.

B.W.B. Yes, wonderful grace.

'The mighty God who dwelt in light
Unreached by mortal eye,
As Man came forth the foe to fight,
And won the victory'. (Hymn 153)

It could not have been any other way, of course.

R.G. So what you are bringing before us in the way of youthful maturity is a very elevated thought indeed, as we see it in Christ.

B.W.B. Yes, and I trust the young ones will be interested in it in that way, and all of us too.

J.G.F. So the word to Abraham was, "Walk before my face", Genesis 17:1. He was made known to Abraham as the Almighty God, and he was to walk before Him.

B.W.B. Yes. I think Abraham retained a sense of that too, the almightiness of God. So he could go and rescue his brother Lot.

Then "Father of Eternity" links, I think, with what the Lord Jesus was amongst His own. It might have some link perhaps with Mark's gospel. Then finally it is "Prince of Peace", which clearly would take us to Luke.

F.B.F. The assembly is going to be the fulness of Christ, and "in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily", Colossians 2:9.

B.W.B. "... and ye are complete in him". I wondered if that might have a link with this verse. We have these glories of Christ. We do not have the assembly, of course, in the Old Testament, but it is looking on to it, and she is complete in Him.

F.B.F. Yes. Do you think the Spirit is helping us as to this thought of fulness, the greatness of what we are connected with through infinite grace?

B.W.B. Yes, I think so.

O.W. Would these titles require maturity on our part to appreciate them?

B.W.B. I think they need maturity to appreciate them fully, but we should not discourage the young ones from appreciating them.

O.W. I was thinking of John's word to the fathers: "I write to you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning", 1 John 2:13. Does that link with the title "Father of Eternity"?

B.W.B. I think it does. We may come to that in more detail perhaps later on.

I thought we might look at these verses in Luke 2 because we have here the Child. He has grown up to the age of twelve. It is a very important point in our development, marked here in the pathway of Jesus. Something distinctly happened at the age of twelve. Not to go into the detail of these verses, but primarily He was found "in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers and hearing them and asking them questions". Then He says to His mother, "I ought to be occupied in my Father's business". I wondered if we might just think a little of this, what occupied this delightful Boy of twelve. I am not suggesting that any child of twelve can be exactly like this, although we have already referred to the scripture in Peter, "leaving you a model that ye should follow in his steps", 1 Peter 2:21. The Lord's interests as a Boy of twelve were in relation to His Father's business and in relation to the truth. He had questions here and He had answers. I would encourage the young ones who have reached that age. I know that there are at least two here of around that age who are marked by considerable maturity, and interest in the Lord's things, and asking questions. They want to get on, to know more, and you would encourage that as a normal development.

F.B.F. I think it is very important, because one day the old brothers will not be there, and who are you going to ask then? You want to take

advantage, I think, of asking questions in the readings. Then we need grace to be able to answer them. Many of us have asked questions when we were younger, and the answers remain with us. But if you do not ask, you will not get much.

B.W.B. I think that is a salutary and helpful remark. The spirit of inquiry will always find a blessing and an answer from the Lord.

F.B.F. I am sure it will. What those older brothers pass on is what they have received from other older ones, who have also asked questions before them. Things are passed down in that way from one generation to another in the testimony.

B.W.B. Yes, that is 2 Timothy 2:2.

J.L. Would it have a connection with the reference in Matthew's gospel? "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me", Matthew 11:29. Would this age be an age when one would look for persons beginning to take steps to commit themselves actively in relation to the path of God's will, as was seen so beautifully in the Lord Himself?

B.W.B. I think that is why it comes in here. The Spirit of God calls attention to this point. It is not arbitrary but at about the age of twelve childhood is being left behind, at least to some extent, and youth is in view. Which way will the person go? There was no doubt with Jesus; it was His Father's business; the questions He could ask in the temple, and so on. But what about those who are about that age here now? Which way are your footsteps set, and your interests, and your affections? Can you learn something from this scripture as to the Lord Himself?

R.G. Do you think the fact that it says, "the boy Jesus remained behind in Jerusalem" would

show that He made a deliberate move in relation to these things? It was not that He was insubject -- the scripture later on states the contrary (verse 51) -- but He still committed Himself definitely to what was His chief interest.

B.W.B. I think we have understood generally that about the age of twelve is the age of responsibility. The scripture as to Jairus' daughter would confirm that too (Luke 8:42). But it seems to me the Lord Himself sets it out here. There is no record between His early childhood in Matthew and this point, reaching the age of twelve. The Lord, as you say, takes the initiative here and moves definitely in relation to His Father's business.

D.M.C. Paul could say, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I reasoned as a child; when I became a man, I had done with what belonged to the child", 1 Corinthians 13:11. Would we have what is suitable in the child coming out in maturity?

B.W.B. That is what I had in mind in the opening remarks that, even in a child, there is a degree of maturity that God would look for. But at about the age of twelve, there would be a further development in mind and the ability to take on some responsibility. It is a good age at which to take up the remembrance of the Lord in the Supper, although I would not rule out still younger ones taking it up.

J.L. Should it be an encouragement to our younger brethren that one of the places where wisdom takes her stance is at the crossroads? (Proverbs 8:2) Would a Counsellor bringing in divine wisdom help us at points of decision in our early life, to steer a right course?

B.W.B. I think that helps. It brings the things we have been speaking about together somewhat. The Lord is ready, if we take this attitude, if we go into the place where questions can be answered, to join Himself to that desire and bring in direction.

J.G.F. Is the Lord intended to be a model for us in every way, in relation to this feature of subjection? It is going to be something that will exist eternally.

B.W.B. Yes, I think that is right.

T.H.S. Is the principle of subjection the secret then of prosperity? What a business it is! The Father's business, the whole placed in subjection to the Son.

B.W.B. It shows the whole bent of the Lord's life from this point. We do not read any more directly as to Christ until He is at the age of thirty.

R.D.P. God says, "I remember for thee the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals", Jeremiah 2:2. Is that the committal at that point in our lives when we give ourselves to the Lord Jesus and His interests? God remembers that.

B.W.B. Yes, having made that committal, we should never look back.

R.D.P. God holds us to our brightest day.

B.W.B. But, as has been said by others, our brightest day should be this very one we are in at the moment. I cannot say that that has always been so in my case, but it should be.

Perhaps we should look at the verses in Samuel. I read in J.T.'s ministry, when somebody asked why we had nothing, apart from those verses in Luke 2, as to the secret years of the life of Jesus, and he said that he thought there were things in the

Psalms that would help, and also in the types ⁺. That is why I thought we should read these verses in 1 Samuel 16 as to David. We are not told exactly how old he was, but I would think he was in his teens at this point. He was still a youth, as Saul said in the next chapter (1 Samuel 17:33). You see here the beauty and attractiveness of David.

J.G.F. Is that seen in him feeding the sheep? That is something that even the youngest could take on in service in that way.

B.W.B. Yes, very good. God alludes to it later in Psalm 78:70, 71, "He chose David his servant, and took him from the sheepfolds: From following the suckling-ewes, he brought him to feed Jacob his people". God took him up from that very point and that was the basis of David's remarkable extended service.

A.H.G. Would we see the way David was set when he could say before Goliath, "I come to thee in the name of Jehovah of hosts"? (1 Samuel 17:45).

B.W.B. Yes. David in that way had been with God and God was with him. God had said to Samuel earlier in this chapter, "I have provided me a king among his sons", 1 Samuel 16:1. Samuel was a little slow to recognise which was the right one.

T.H.S. Have you some thought in verse 12 as to his personal qualities? In verse 18 it is what he does. What he is comes first.

B.W.B. I wondered that. In thinking about the secret years of the life of Jesus, we can rest assured that it was ever delightful to the heart of God. What it says here is that "he was ruddy, and besides of a lovely countenance and beautiful appearance". That is not fleshly beauty; they are

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moral beauties and glories, and shed some light, I believe, on what God found in Jesus in those youthful years.

T.H.S. I wondered if it would help us as to the matter of contemplation, going into His presence, into the sanctuary, to see the beauty of the Lord. To see His activities, of course, in the gospels is wonderful. "He does all things well", Mark 7:37. But this is the Person Himself.

B.W.B. And he is anointed here in the midst of his brethren. It is a secret anointing. Later on, he is anointed publicly in view of his kingship. It is in view of his kingship here, but it is in secret, amongst his brethren.

F.B.F. The truth of the anointing is that God anoints what is pleasing to Himself. The king, the priest, the cleansed leper, were all anointed.

B.W.B. That links, for us, with the gift of the Spirit. The question would be with me, and with each one perhaps, what is there in me that is pleasing to God? It is only what is of Christ.

F.B.F. Do you think this lovely countenance was acquired through shepherding?

B.W.B. Yes, I think so, delightful to the heart of God. What a shepherd he was! I suppose he had already met the lion and the bear here.

J.G.F. Do we get this appreciation in the Song of Songs? It says, "My beloved is white and ruddy" and then, "altogether lovely", Song of Songs 5:10, 16.

B.W.B. I was thinking of that.

D.M.C. Do you think we lose out if we do not accept who God approves of?

B.W.B. Yes, quite so. We have to find out what God approves of in us, if anything, and have

a liking for that. It is not fleshly desire or preference.

R.G. Does the truth of Romans bear on this? We begin to discern what God does approve of and judge what He does not. It does not appear here that it was immediately obvious who God approved of.

B.W.B. It has been said that it would appear that Samuel was looking for someone like Saul. He looked on Eliab and looked on his countenance and stature. Saul was a man who was head and shoulders above the others. Samuel, alas, was looking for that kind of man. He is quickly adjusted. It is not that kind of man that God is looking for at all.

R.G. Is it one of the features of maturity then that we would learn at an early stage to discern what is pleasing to God and follow that?

B.W.B. I think so. Paul speaks about "full-grown men, who, on account of habit, have their senses exercised for distinguishing both good and evil", Hebrews 5:14.

F.B.F. The smallest thing that the young brothers and sisters do for the saints is part of their growth. We are not talking about something great, but what is morally great in the sight of God is your appreciation of the importance of the saints to God, and that is shown practically in small things that you might do.

B.W.B. I hope we might come to some of those things perhaps later on in these meetings. As to the physical side, there is something radically wrong with a child if it does not grow. We can carry that through into the spiritual side of things. It is a great thing to see the young ones developing

spiritually. I think David did that. The Lord Jesus, as we have already said in Luke 2, did so too.

F.B.F. David was a man after God's own heart. There was a correspondence between God's heart and David's affection for the saints and what was precious to God.

B.W.B. I think so, and he was very faithful in his shepherding. He went back to the sheep after he had been to Saul, and it was from the shepherding he went to meet Goliath. This experience stood him in good stead in facing the giant. How fully it brings out the shepherd character of the work of Christ, the good Shepherd!

G.J.M. Was he attending to his father's business in feeding the sheep?

B.W.B. Yes, I think he was.

R.V.G. Do the features that are mentioned here bring out something that is morally attractive about the Lord? "He was ruddy, and besides of a lovely countenance and beautiful appearance".

B.W.B. Yes. It is a three-fold cord, very beautiful. I think the word you used is interesting -- 'attractive'. We will never make much progress unless we really are attracted to Christ.

R.D.P. These are features that are appreciated by the spouse in Song of Songs. I was thinking they shine out in Christ as Head of the assembly.

B.W.B. Yes, as to attraction, I think it has been said that it is attraction and then it is attachment.

P.A.G. Is that why in Romans we are attracted to the Lord as our Head on moral grounds, before He becomes Head to us on personal and official grounds? It is the obedience of the one Man that is brought before us in Romans.

B.W.B. Yes, and the glory of the One that has delivered us from our lost estate. We certainly need to begin with Romans and go on. The main line, it has been said, is from Romans to Colossians and Ephesians and that brings in the other features as to headship that you spoke of.

J.L. Have we any capacity to grow apart from the Spirit?

B.W.B. I think that is a salutary remark. I suppose we grow in the Lord's presence, but the Spirit has to do with the formative side in our souls, and the establishment of growth in our souls would be by the Spirit.

J.L. I thought so. Would He not, in a very particular way, occupy us with the moral beauties and glories of the Lord Jesus?

B.W.B. Yes. I suppose that is 2 Corinthians 3:18. "But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord ... are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit".

F.B.F. A sense of the presence and the love of Christ at the Supper can have a very powerful effect on your committal.

B.W.B. Yes. Therefore it is attraction to Christ that will lead us to take up the Supper. Of course it is a commandment of love on His part and, in a sense, obedience enters into it, but I think the young ones need to get the sense of the beauties and glories of Christ and to be attracted to Him, in order to make spiritual progress.

F.B.F. And a deep sense that they are greatly loved by Christ and that love will never cease.

B.W.B. Yes. A love that has not been equalled, anywhere near, by anyone else. It far exceeds the father's and the mother's love.

O.W. David was the one whom God was going to establish. I was thinking of what we have in Hebrews 10:9, "He takes away the first that he may establish the second". That links too with Christ where He is established in our hearts.

B.W.B. These verses bring that out very clearly. The first of Jesse's sons has to go, and the second and the third, and so on. It is the eighth that is selected here in David, and we all have to learn that lesson, that all that we are as of Adam's order has to go. But then in every believer in whom there is a work of God, God has begun again. He has begun that work; the second is being established.

T.H.S. We have spoken about the young ones, and twelve years old and so on, but this reference here is beautiful, when Samuel says, "We will not sit at table till he come hither". Speaking from experience, the desire to break bread preceded the actual committal to it, so far as I am concerned, by some years. Doubtless that is the experience of many. Nothing else will draw us but the Person and the love of Christ.

B.W.B. Yes. The attractiveness of the love of Christ would be the spring for that. So this is a beautiful touch, "anointed him in the midst of his brethren". J.T. commented once that the sons of Jesse never looked so well as when David was anointed in their midst ⁺. There were certain features about them that were uncomely to some extent, but at least they surrounded him here when he was anointed.

R.G. Is that then one of the values of the Supper? Not only do we get fresh impressions of

⁺J.T. Volume 8, page 254

Christ but we are uplifted in our thoughts about our brethren and strengthened to go on together.

B.W.B. Yes. All that leads into the richness of the service of God. It is a great privilege to have others to sit down with and enjoy these eternal relationships, the eternal home too into which we are soon going to be translated in actuality.

Perhaps we should look at the final scripture, because there is a certain fulness in Luke 3. It says, "And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years old; being as was supposed son of Joseph". So we have it on the authority of Scripture here at this point, that at about the age of thirty years, this remarkable event happens. I selected the verses in Luke because he only, I think, gives you this additional touch, that Jesus was praying. He identifies Himself here with the people who had been baptised. "Jesus having been baptised and praying, that the heaven was opened". We come now in the case of the Lord Jesus to the full maturity of manhood and a complete readiness to serve, whatever the service may entail.

J.G.F. Is that seen in the way the address comes out here? It is not 'This is ...', but "Thou art ...", it is personal to Him.

B.W.B. Yes. That was another reason for using Luke, although Mark says the same, as marking Christ out in the mind of God. He had been under the eye of God, of course, all the way through, but now God is marking Him out. Here is a Man fully matured and a wonderful Servant, about to embark on the whole work that had been committed to Him.

P.H.B. Is it instructive that the Lord is prepared to wait until this moment came?

B.W.B. Yes, I think that is interesting. Divine timing is perfect. In the glory of His Person, of course, the Lord Jesus would have known that all this was to happen and He would have known that at about the age of thirty He would go out in public service, but in the dependence of manhood He waits the Father's time.

F.B.F. The Lord came into a condition in manhood to which obedience applied. Before, it was for Him to command.

B.W.B. The scripture in Hebrews says that "he learned obedience from the things which he suffered", Hebrews 5:8. That does not mean, of course, that He learned obedience in the sense in which we may learn lessons. He realised what the condition was that entailed obedience.

D.M.C. He never knew disobedience.

B.W.B. No, we have to learn to obey.

R.G. Do you think the fact that three divine Persons are suggested or mentioned here -- the Lord Himself and the Holy Spirit and the Father's voice -- brings into relief that full maturity involves a knowledge of God as revealed?

B.W.B. Yes. I think that is very helpful. God was there in the Babe. "In him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell", Colossians 1:19. But it was not exactly displayed nor did it come into expression till this moment. It is important in view of the Lord Jesus going out in His public service that the whole scope of the divine mind, and each of the three Persons is involved at this moment.

P.A.G. I just wanted to ask as to these ages that we have mentioned -- the age of twelve and the age of thirty, and others alluded to. To what extent are these to be taken literally at the present time?

B.W.B. I do not think they are to be taken too literally. Is that why it says here, "Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years old"? In the Old Testament there would be indications as to the Levites, that thirty years was the age at which they began to serve in full maturity, although the age was lowered later. I do not think we can lay down literal ages at all. Persons vary in their development; you may have one child of twelve who is far more mature than another. But it would be a general indication, I think. What do you say?

P.A.G. I agree with that. It was just in my mind that no one here has missed the chance to break bread, nor to take up service.

B.W.B. No. I am afraid I was eighteen before I broke bread. I do not think it is a question of literal figures at all, but there would be a certain scriptural justification for these ages. It would give some indication of what God is looking for in the development of a young believer.

J.H.H. Would this be the normal development of the believer?

B.W.B. I thought that. In this first reading we are looking at the Lord Jesus Himself personally, and I think that represents perfection in what God is looking for.

J.H.H. It is God's sovereignty in taking persons up, but then persons brought into touch with the truth are responsible to answer to it. It is the idea of what is normal to the christian household.

B.W.B. Yes, I think that is right. Clearly, if some one is converted out of the world, much older, God will perfect the work in such a one too. But they will develop in maturity maybe more quickly because of their age.

J.G.F. Does the fact that the genealogy is traced back to God indicate that we return to God's primary thoughts in relation to man in maturity?

B.W.B. Yes, I think that would be right.

D.M.C. Do you think we all experience a time in our lives when God is beginning to speak to us? It is our responsibility to answer to that.

B.W.B. Yes. We may perhaps come to that in the next reading more definitely, but I am sure that is right. The question would be whether we heed it. It says, "God speaketh once, and twice", Job 33:14. He may speak many times, but we may not heed it at once.

M.R.C. It says of the woman that "she knew in her body that she was cured", Mark 5:29. There is a certain conviction in the soul when these things have been arrived at, and you know. The Lord would give you the strength to answer to what He has laid upon you.

B.W.B. I think that is very helpful. If we have a sense of conviction, we should not let it go. We should act, as you say, in relation to it. I would think many, myself too, have had conviction at times and we have not paid full attention to it, or moved in relation to it. Therefore, we may have delayed the development and the prosperity that God had in mind for us.

C.E.H. Would one effect of this occupation with the perfection of Christ in every stage of His life be to help us to go over our histories with the Lord, to help us to measure our departures so that a certain element of self-judgment begins with us? Without that, the work of God is not going to progress, and along with that, the glorious appreciation of the uniqueness of that Man would fill our souls with worship.

B.W.B. Does that not link with what has been said about anticipating the judgment seat now? You can have things out with the Lord, go over the history with Him now. You do not need to wait until the judgment seat, and if the full appreciation of His glories moves our souls to worship we have reached a full end to the exercise.

N.E.L. Could you say a little about what the Lord takes on here in connection with this age of maturity that we are considering?

B.W.B. What are you referring to in what He takes on?

N.E.L. The matter of baptism. "And Jesus having been baptised and praying".

B.W.B. I thought that "all the people having been baptised, and Jesus having been baptised" brings out the grace of the way that He would identify Himself with others. As we know, He had no need to go that way, but in grace He went that way too. I would think that these persons who had been baptised -- and He went down as well and came up praying -- would have been left with a remarkable impression of the grace of Christ. It would have made their baptism much more real.

T.H.S. Do you think these two things put together would help us to understand that christianity is not of this world? First there is baptism, but then praying would help us to see it is heavenly. That is a mark of maturity.

B.W.B. It certainly is. Heaven has precedence over earth. I think we should note those words you used -- christianity is not of this world. The Lord said, "My kingdom is not of this world", John 18:36. We need to remember that, because, alas, perhaps the younger ones particularly, spend a lot of time on the things of the world, not necessarily

evil ones, but they are things of this world and they are not the things of the world that is centred in Christ where He is.

T.H.S. I was thinking how the Lord Himself was tested by Satan on this very point immediately after this, but of course He was proof against it. We may come to this, and if we are tested we might fail, but the Lord would encourage us in maturity to stand.

B.W.B. Yes. The Lord met the enemy by adhering to the will of God and the word of God. Those two things are not out of our reach.

T.H.S. I think this is a very blessed time to come together, this room being used with respect to the Scriptures, the word of God. It is of God's sovereignty and mercy that we are here.

B.W.B. It is, yes. It is a great opportunity for every one of us to be able to ask questions and perhaps to find answers. You may even find answers without having to ask the questions.

F.B.F. This is a wonderful section here: "Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight". Think of heaven finding delight in one blessed Man on earth! There was not another.

B.W.B. It is a very full and definitive statement, and it really covers the whole of the thirty years up to this point.

F.B.F. And covers God's purpose in having men in the relationship of sonship with Christ eternally for His praise.

B.W.B. And we know in Psalm 16:3 it is extended: "To the saints that are on the earth ... In them is all my delight". Here of course it is specifically and personally in His beloved Son. This relationship too is publicly announced here. Of course it existed at His birth; He was born Son.

But here it is publicly announced: "Thou art my beloved Son".

R.G. Have you anything to say about the fact that the Holy Spirit commits Himself, especially in the case of Christ of course, but He commits Himself to what is mature, having in view service?

B.W.B. Yes. We should not miss that. "In a bodily form". It is complete. As we know, in Acts 2:3 it is, "parted tongues, as of fire" but there is no need for that here. It is "in a bodily form as a dove", perfect restfulness, and surely that makes way for service according to God.

R.G. If our younger brethren, and all of us, have in mind to be more fully committed, we should understand that it is in view of being useful in the testimony.

B.W.B. I would like to say, as to the whole of these meetings, that that would be one of the leading thoughts in mind. If we are helped to arrive perhaps at a fuller idea and measure of maturity, what that leads to is usefulness in service.

D.M.C. "And Jesus himself". Is a certain fulness of maturity seen in that? Would that link with what you have in Colossians: "In him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell", Colossians 1:19. Was it there in all its fulness?

B.W.B. It brings out His personal glory.

R.V.G. The Spirit descending -- is that His personal action? He is not viewed here as sent. It says, "the Holy Spirit descended ... upon him".

B.W.B. Yes, I would think so. I suppose, as was said earlier, it brings the three Persons of the Godhead together, two of Them united in the acclamation of this One, and identifying Him as the Vessel of divine service, and grace to men.

P.A.G. The Holy Spirit descending did not involve anything having to be adjusted or excluded in Christ.

B.W.B. No, quite so. We need to remember the distinction and glory of Christ. He stands alone as the perfect Servant, perfectly qualified right from the beginning, but now acclaimed publicly by the descent of the Spirit upon Him and by the Father's voice.

YOUTHFUL MATURITY (2)

1 Samuel 1:24 - 28; 1 Samuel 2:18 - 21, 26; 1 Samuel 3:1, 15 - 21; 2 Kings 5:2, 3; 2 Chronicles 34:1 - 8; John 6:8 - 12

B.W.B. We have read about four quite young persons with whom there was a measure of maturity. In two cases, Samuel and Josiah, there is a record of development into full maturity. I trust it will encourage the young ones. God has used young people in Scripture. There are many others too that we could refer to. Samuel is perhaps the most outstanding example of a young boy who quickly develops into maturity. So in the final verses we read as to him, in chapter 3, Jehovah "let none of his words fall to the ground". He was established a prophet. The exercise in these chapters in Samuel begins with Hannah, as we know. We have not read her remarkable song. What a woman she was! We should speak of her a little, because the spring of what happened in Samuel was in his mother and there are mothers here of young boys and young girls. She was prepared to lend him to Jehovah all the days of his life. I suppose, in principle, in baptism we lend our children to the Lord. Usually, of course, we are given them back again to bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Hannah is prepared to go further than that, to lend this boy to Jehovah all the days of his life. I thought these various touches that come into these chapters as to Samuel's rapid development are very interesting. He was brought up to Eli as he was weaned; he must have been a very young boy. They took him up with this offering, the three bullocks and the

ephah of flour and the wine, "and brought him to the house of Jehovah ... and the boy was young". I wondered if that would encourage us in relation to the young ones. There would be exercise in that way raised with the sisters, and brothers too for that matter, mothers and fathers, but then to see the beauty of a little one developing quickly.

R.G. It is a very attractive presentation of the truth. Do you think it is encouraging to see, not only what God is able to set on, but what He is able to sustain in suitability to Himself?

B.W.B. Yes, we are tested in the maintenance of things. The Spirit helps, and the grace of Christ too, would affect the parents, that the children might be touched in relation to the things of the Lord, and they might grow up quickly to appreciate Christ and begin to look for some part in His service. It says that Samuel opened the doors of the house of Jehovah (1 Samuel 3:15). That was a simple thing to do, in one sense, but I do not suppose very many boys of his age would have done it.

D.M.C. Was it a very dark point in the history of Israel in which Samuel came to light? So it would relate to the present time.

B.W.B. Yes. It is important to call attention to that. Of course, in the first place the spring of it being met was in Hannah. As we know, the feminine line in this book is important, in Hannah and then the wife of Phinehas, and the milch kine, and then finally in Abigail. There is a certain line of divinely accorded witness and power that works through the feminine line in this book, in view of recovery and in view of David coming in.

T.H.S. It is a very rich offering she brings at first, but there is more than that, because where

you read in chapter 2 she does it yearly (verse 19). It does not specify the details of the sacrifice. It is rich, but the side of continuance is important.

B.W.B. It certainly is. Hannah is a remarkable woman. Her whole being craved for this son, and yet, when he was born, she was prepared to let him go. Is that not a remarkable lesson for us, how what is spiritual is to have the predominance with us? It is the giving up of the natural.

F.B.F. Do you think she rightly felt what had happened through the times of the Judges when "every man did what was right in his own eyes" (Judges 21:25)? She saw that was not of God and that would lie behind some of her exercises.

B.W.B. That is a word to us at the present moment. Christendom is full of persons doing what is right in their own eyes, and working independently. Many believers are in an independent position, and we all have to seek to be clear of it.

F.B.F. Samuel was ready to hear; he had good sensitive hearing.

B.W.B. His name means 'heard of God'.

J.L. You linked Samuel's beginning with the truth of baptism. In that connection, had you any thought about the reference Hannah makes to "all the days that he lives"?

B.W.B. Baptism has that in mind, that the child should be brought up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and baptism is intended to affect any one of us for the rest of our days, putting a separation between us and the world. It is positional, I suppose, at the point of the baptism of a babe. The child does not understand it at that time, but he or she is to grow up to begin to understand it. Perhaps you had more in mind?

J.L. I was thinking along those lines. It would be normal in the households of the saints that that would be the beginning for the children who would be baptised. But I think we are also tested in working out the truth of baptism in the households and continuing to preserve our children in view of them being held all their days.

B.W.B. In type, it is going through the Red Sea. The Red Sea put the barrier between the children of Israel and the world. So we accept that nominally in having the child baptised, but it is a practical exercise as to how far that is maintained. I think it is a very real concern at the present moment. It is not only a question of having the child baptised in infancy, but making sure that they grow up in that atmosphere, out of the world, as we said in the earlier reading.

P.J.S.McM. Being brought up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord is a very real and testing matter.

B.W.B. Yes. The nurture would have in mind development through feeding on spiritual food. Then we all need admonition.

P.J.S.McM. You cannot exactly put what is spiritual into the child; it has to deal with its own exercises, yet there must be the direction leading to the end we have been speaking about.

B.W.B. I think it is a question of providing an atmosphere where what is spiritual can prosper, if the desire is there. I suppose in meetings like this we should be concerned to inculcate that desire in the younger ones, and to show them the gain of it.

D.C. You were saying the exercise of Samuel really began with Hannah. I was thinking of Psalm 127:3 - 5, where we have the masculine side, which says "children are an inheritance from

Jehovah ... As arrows in the hand of a mighty man ... Happy is the man that hath filled his quiver with them". Then the next psalm says, "thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine in the inner part of thy house", Psalm 128:3. I wondered what you had to say about the subjective side in the development and the growth of the children.

B.W.B. The two sides need to go together. I linked it with Hannah because Elkanah does not seem to shine much in this case, but in a normal christian household you expect the head of the house to give a lead and the wife, in subjection, to follow on and support it. There would be a double power there in bringing in what is spiritual. What I meant here was that Elkanah does not seem to fulfil his responsibilities, and that would be a voice to us brothers.

P.A.G. It says in Romans 6:4 that "we have been buried therefore with him by baptism unto death, in order that, even as Christ has been raised up from among the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life". Do you think the protection of the children in our households would involve that we walk in newness of life?

B.W.B. Yes, that is an interesting expression -- "walk in newness of life". It is what characterises our part in the testimony at the present moment, newness of life. It is the life that has sprung out of death and that is, I suppose, typically what they began to enjoy as coming out of the Red Sea. The provisions were given -- the manna and the water from the rock. We have, in that way, food in Christ, we have the rock giving the water. There is food and drink that goes with the newness of life.

F.B.F. Does not the literature that comes into our houses have an effect upon what we are saying?

B.W.B. Very much so, and many other things too. We did hint at it earlier, but there are many worldly things, which in themselves are not exactly evil or corrupting perhaps, but they should not really find a part in a believer's household.

F.B.F. They are influences that hinder progress.

B.W.B. We see in modern developments how the enemy has been very successful in developing these things that have tremendous power. They can get into the household of the believer.

R.G. Are you referring to what you can access through computers and that kind of thing?

B.W.B. Yes. Of course, computers have their uses as work tools, and one would not be critical of that, but as soon as we begin to use them in any way for entertainment, then I think we are treading on very dangerous ground. The amount of time wasted on such things is all lost time.

R.G. Yes, I agree with you.

B.W.B. In fact, it is not very different from the television, maybe much more degrading.

T.H.S. Hannah says, "I rejoice in thy salvation", 1 Samuel 2:1. Do we know enough about salvation, the Red Sea salvation?

B.W.B. With the children of Israel there was no going back; the waters returned. There was no way back into Egypt. They lusted for it later, but I think we need to look at baptism from that point of view, that if we are spiritually set, there is no way back. But I would say as well, that the subject of the first reading, the attractiveness and the wonder of the Person of Christ, should be kept before us. It

is not laying down rules and regulations at all, but we have what is so much better in Jesus.

R.D.P. So Hannah was looking to promote that and what was for God. That was why she desired the man child, so that what was for God would be prospered.

B.W.B. I think so. As was said earlier, she realised the paucity of the time of the Judges and that what was really needed was a man, a prophet who could bring in the mind of God. She did not know how it would work out, I suppose, but God knew the scope of things. It brought in David eventually.

R.D.P. Do you think we should perhaps have our desires, and leave God to work them out and prosper them?

B.W.B. Yes, I would go with that, although we do not exactly leave it all to God. We are responsible to do all that we can about spiritual desires in the younger ones and show them where the good food is too.

R.D.P. I was thinking particularly that God prospers those desires because they are for Him.

B.W.B. Yes.

C.E.H. Hannah bringing up the three bullocks, and one ephah of flour, and a flask of wine showed that she had the light of the priestly order of things that God had instituted. For us it would really involve the understanding of what becomes the assembly.

B.W.B. Yes. She seems to triumph. It is a very rich offering that she brings and then there is her prayer too. What a woman she was! She must have inculcated something into Samuel, maybe not very much, because he could not have been much more than three or four when she brought him up here.

But there was surely something that was put there, and then God developed it and He eventually made Himself known to Samuel.

C.E.H. She did not have any substandard thoughts as to what became God's presence. While we are in a day of brokenness, do not let us descend in our thoughts and exercises to what is substandard. God is operating; christianity is a glorious thing, and the priestly features of it need to be maintained by us and we need to hold to it in the presence of the failure there has been.

B.W.B. Very good. We need to remember that "he who has begun in you a good work will complete it unto Jesus Christ's day", Philippians 1:6. Every one here who is conscious of the work of God in the soul, it may be only a little beginning, should remember that it will be completed. I suppose that bears on the idea of maturity.

N.E.L. What goes on in our localities would reflect on what goes on in the households. There should be the aspect of practical teaching brought in there. I was thinking in that regard of the relationship between Eli and Samuel. It was quite a strange situation -- an old man looking after a young boy -- but many of the circumstances in our localities may be potentially abnormal, and yet the Spirit and the Lord can help us to work things out practically within those circumstances.

B.W.B. I think that is very interesting. There was a tremendous age difference between Eli and Samuel, but Samuel got help from Eli to some extent. At least Eli began to teach him what the calling of Jehovah meant. He says, "If he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, Jehovah, for thy servant heareth", 1 Samuel 3:9. Samuel did not actually say 'Jehovah' when he answered the first time. It says

he did not yet know Jehovah (verse 7). That had to be developed in his soul, but I think he learned something from Eli.

J.G.F. Do our prayers and petitions need to be followed up to the end that there may be a right atmosphere where our young, and indeed we all, can grow?

B.W.B. I suppose that is involved in the section we read in chapter 2 where "Samuel ministered before Jehovah, a boy girded with a linen ephod". Then you have, "his mother made him a little coat ... from year to year, when she came up". The size of the coat was increased. She would follow with great affection and great exercise the development of Samuel in that way.

J.G.F. Yes. I was noticing the reference to being lent to Jehovah. It comes in right through.

B.W.B. Yes. She did not take him back.

F.B.F. Pharaoh sought to destroy the children. It runs all the way through Scripture. Satan is against the young; that is why we are saying what we are saying.

B.W.B. Yes, in the Lord's day, Herod slew all the boys (Matthew 2:16). What a murderous thing to do! But heaven saw to it that the little Child was preserved, and it would be an exercise with assembly-minded persons that life in the little ones should be preserved and it should be nurtured, that they should grow up into the testimony.

F.B.F. I think it is an encouragement to us at the present time. God is going to complete His thoughts and He is going to have those who are in accord with His desires. It may be small, but God is bringing through what He has in mind. Hades' gates are not going to prevail.

B.W.B. That is helpful. I think Hannah's prayer is tremendous in its exultation and the scope of it. What a spiritual woman she was!

T.H.S. Eli blessed Elkanah and Hannah (verse 20). She is the one who takes responsibility in the household and it would be a great encouragement for sisters who are doing that in regard of husbands who are not up to what they might be.

B.W.B. Yes. I noticed that Eli blessed them both. He did not ignore Elkanah. I suppose you would respect him in that sense; he was the father of Samuel. He did not seem to be concerned earlier with Hannah's exercise for the man child. He says, "Am not I better to thee than ten sons?" 1 Samuel 1:8. That was not a very spiritual remark.

T.H.S. I was thinking of Hannah's faith when the husband was not up to it, and yet God honours the household on account of the faith of the wife.

B.W.B. Very good. Even if the husband is not, as you say, up to it, he still has the place in headship and I am sure Hannah would have been the first to recognise that. Any spiritual sister would. I suppose the thought would be that the husband should be gained through the spiritual influence and prayers of the wife.

M.R.C. We cannot place too much importance on the household reading. Before sending children out into the world, it is good to pray with them and read the Scriptures. There would be a measure of preservation experienced surely where that is exercised.

B.W.B. Very good. And to make sure that the children understand something of it. I have seen examples recently that are very encouraging where children can answer questions in relation to the Scriptures, and ask questions too, as we were

saying earlier. I think what you call attention to is very important. There is a certain garrisoning of the heart in that way before the child goes out on the day. Of course it applies to all of us too.

J.H.W. Hannah seems to maintain a link with Samuel. She lent him to Jehovah, but she never took him away. He was always hers, and she brought him this little coat you referred to -- constant attention to the growth of that boy. That is the mother's place.

B.W.B. Yes. It is the literal mother's place, but I think it is also the place of the motherly element in the assembly and the fatherly element too. Paul was both, a father and a nursing mother to the saints, and he was very urgent as to the growth of the younger ones. He took on Timothy and Titus as his children in a spiritual way, and he was ever watchful as to their spiritual development and growth.

J.H.W. Yes. We must not discount the mother's part in the upbringing of the child. It is most important.

B.W.B. The mother is a great influence and is with the child more of the time generally, but I would not like to lessen the responsibility of the fathers.

J.L. Another important thought is suggest-ed in the references to "before Jehovah". He ministered before Jehovah (verse 18) and he grew before Jehovah (verse 21) and so on. Is it not important to have a sense of moving and acting in the sight of Jehovah?

B.W.B. Yes, we were speaking in the first reading about Christ being under the eye of His Father. He moved perfectly before God. I think it is very interesting as to Samuel. There was a little

boy developing, and God's eye was upon him. You little boys and girls here, do you have a sense that God's eye is upon you? He is looking that you should grow. Your parents are looking that you should grow, and God is looking for it too. His eye would be upon you for blessing.

J.L. What was said about the morning reading was excellent in that connection. If a child just wanders out carelessly from the house, that is one thing, but to go in the sense of having been before God in household prayer and the word of God being brought in, gives us a sense of walking before God and going out with care and a sense of salvation too.

B.W.B. Very good. I think it links with what was referred to in the first reading: "I will counsel thee with mine eye upon thee", Psalm 32:8. Let us have a sense, every one of us, that God's eye is upon us each day and all through the day, in view of preserving us from evil and in view of bringing us into further blessing.

J.G.F. Would this be seen also in relation to the manna? It was called the daily need. You feel there is a need every day to get a word from Jehovah.

B.W.B. Yes, I am sure that is right. As the children get a little older, you would encourage them to get food for themselves. Then the reading in the household would build on that. Then maybe, as they get a bit older still, they come to the meeting in the evening to get something further in the assembly.

G.A.C. Should we look for the moment when the children answer to their baptism? Is that an important point in their history?

B.W.B. Yes. I think that is very important. To that end, of course, it should be explained to them. "When your children ask ..." (Joshua 4:6) it says several times in the Old Testament. That is a challenge to the parents too, because if we have not held to the principles that are involved in baptism, it is not going to be very easy to convince the younger ones. They know whether you are really in keeping with what you are saying or not.

D.M.C. Do you think in these things that you have been speaking about earlier, Satan's intention is to break down communications between parents and children? We want to be able to communicate with our children.

B.W.B. We do not want to dwell too much on worldly things, but that breakdown in communication is rampant in the world, and as young ones get into the teenage years it is almost complete. There is no link or communication whatever between the parents and teenage youngsters in many cases; they virtually live in a completely different world. We do not want that amongst the saints; it does not belong in the assembly. The old and the young are to go on together.

J.P. I was thinking of what Solomon says in the end of Proverbs, "The words of king Lemuel, the prophecy that his mother taught him", Proverbs 31:1. Is that an important point?

B.W.B. Yes, I think as we look through Scripture we will find that mothers have a strong influence in that way. It comes in Kings a good deal; it often says who the king's mother was. It is not just an idle point; I think in most cases it has a bearing on how the king behaved, whether he followed God, and did what was right, or not.

F.B.F. Another important thing is that your baptism means that you do not seek the highest position you can in this world. As a lover of Christ, you are prepared to do the most humble kind of work. This idea of exploiting your potential is not according to baptism.

B.W.B. It has been well said, that the nearer you get to the top of this world, the nearer you get to the god of it.

F.B.F. These are simple things, but they do register with you when you are young.

B.W.B. It is not, of course, that the young ones would not be exercised to make a living, and to be able to contribute too to the testimony, but making money is not an end in itself.

D.M.C. We have to realise too that the world that the children are growing up in is a much more difficult world than we grew up in. The Lord gives provision for the present moment.

B.W.B. Yes, therefore maybe the wisdom of considering a subject like this.

P.A.G. Would it be important that we give our children the right size of coat? What the world does is to give children coats that are too big for them and expect them to become adults when they are not. Children need to be treated wisely according to the age and stage that they are at. It would be incumbent on us to recognise that in the way that we treat our own children.

B.W.B. Spiritual wisdom is needed, not to make the child old before it is young, or to expect more than would be divinely expected for a child of any age. So we need to get it in balance. But, as you say, in many aspects of worldly society, children are encouraged to be adults before they are able for it, and it brings in ruin.

P.H.B. Could you say something as to the distinctive character of the Lord's day in bringing up the children?

B.W.B. The Lord's day is to give character to the whole week and it is a peculiar opportunity for being really apart from the world and enjoying things amongst the saints and enjoying what Christ is to His people. It is the Lord's day, it is the dominical day, and we own His rights. The first thing to do is to be at the Supper. But perhaps you had something more in mind?

P.H.B. I was wanting a bit more help, because I feel myself there is a tendency, perhaps, to concentrate on the meetings. That is right in itself, of course, but the working out of things in the household is also something that can be affected by the character of the day.

B.W.B. I think that is a very good exercise, and perhaps we do not pay sufficient attention to it. What we have already referred to, "When your children ask ...", would be an opportunity householdwise. And then there is the entertaining of the saints. I can remember as a child, happy times of fellowship on the Lord's day, at lunch and tea and after the gospel. Plenty of brethren came in, or we went somewhere and enjoyed the fellowship in between the meetings as well.

R.V.G. Samuel was "a boy girded" and Scripture speaks of having the loins of our minds girded (1 Peter 1:13). Do you think he had right thoughts and a right outlook, obeying faithful instructions that would be given to him?

B.W.B. Yes. The way he develops is remarkable; it is very rapid. We read these various verses. We cannot speak of them all, but he grows in his appreciation of the part he is to fill, and then

in chapter 3 you have the call of Jehovah, and eventually Samuel says, "Speak, for thy servant heareth", 1 Samuel 3:10. Then God speaks to Samuel and gives him this vision, and it says, "Samuel lay until the morning, and opened the doors of the house of Jehovah" (verse 15). Then he told Eli all that had been said. These were remarkable things for one who was still quite a young boy. He was faithful, he could pass on the divine message in that way. Then finally, at the end of chapter 3 it says, "And Samuel grew, and Jehovah was with him". Jehovah definitely commits Himself now to Samuel, "and let none of his words fall to the ground. And all Israel ... knew that Samuel was established a prophet of Jehovah. And ... Jehovah revealed himself to Samuel at Shiloh by the word of Jehovah". I think in these three chapters you have a remarkable and rapid development until you have a vessel that is able to serve the Lord.

T.H.S. Is there encouragement in verse 18? He told him all the words and kept nothing back. If we are giving expression to what has been made good in our souls, then verse 19 will appear: "Samuel grew". "There is that withholdeth more than is right, but it tendeth only to want", Proverbs 11:24. One would stir up the saints; there is a great depth of the work of God among the saints and not all of it is being released at the present time. Would that be just?

B.W.B. I think that is good, yes. You can understand the situation. Samuel was a young boy and Eli was over eighty. It was a severe message too, and he would have been a bit fearful of speaking of it to Eli, but he seems to be conscious

that that was what God had said to him, and he "told him all the words, and kept nothing back".

T.H.S. Whatever Eli's failings, and they were sad, he had respect for the ark. So Samuel would take account of that. But I was thinking of his expressing what had been given to him, and on that account he increases.

B.W.B. Eli himself obviously appreciated Samuel too and had affection for him, seeing in him what he had not found in his own sons.

R.G. Do you think the expression, "Jehovah was with him" (verse 19), would connect in our day with the gift of the Spirit? No doubt Samuel was distinctive, but we have to understand that, as having the gift of the Spirit, God has committed Himself to us irrevocably. He is not going to go back on that. We have a treasure there that is something that we should cultivate and foster.

B.W.B. Yes. "Jehovah was with him". It is not something we are going to claim, but if God is with us in any matter, we will have an inward sense of it, which gives a quiet confidence. It is not anything that you need to claim at all, but if you have the sense of it, you can go forward.

R.G. The great thing, if you do have a sense of it, is to cultivate it. All these other pressures and influences tend to swamp that kind of thing. But if we have an inkling that God has committed Himself to us, it is right to move ahead on these lines.

B.W.B. Yes, I think so. So Samuel was established in that way as a prophet, and it is very rapid development, but sound and solid development too.

Perhaps we ought to move on to the little maid in 2 Kings 5. Not that there is very much, perhaps, to say about this scripture but it is very encouraging. It is a little girl. She might have been feeling downcast or bitter, having been taken captive, but what comes out in her is a very mature expression of the love of God and a knowledge too of the prophet that is in Samaria.

J.G.F. Is there definite feeling with her? She says, "Oh, would that my lord ..." She felt the situation.

B.W.B. You think of a young girl in this way, and in a foreign place. She might have been feeling very sad and rather bitter about the circumstances, but she triumphs over that. She comes out, in a way, in the spirit of Christ. "Love your enemies ... do good to those who hate you", Matthew 5:44.

J.G.F. She knew where to get help.

B.W.B. Yes, which is interesting. How many little girls here would be able to point the way to blessing to someone else? I suppose it might work out today in giving out a tract. But she knew about the prophet, and she knew that he had power to heal. The power of God was with him. It is quite something for a little maid to have learned that and to be able to put it into expression.

C.E.H. So while your main exercise is to encourage our young people on these lines, we should none of us exempt ourselves from what you are bringing forward. The Lord says, "Unless ye are converted and become as little children, ye will not at all enter into the kingdom of the heavens", Matthew 18:3. These exercises are something that we can all take on.

B.W.B. I thought that. I did mention in the opening remarks that I trust there will be plenty for

the older ones too, because these features of youthful maturity are not to be lost in us either, in a spiritual sense. We are to know where the blessing is, and to be able to point others to it.

T.H.S. She says, "Oh, would that my lord were before the prophet". She understood where the testimony was at that point. That is a great thing.

B.W.B. Yes. Naaman obviously did not get the message entirely. He did not listen to it all, because he went to the king and had a letter written to the king of Israel, and it took him some time to come to the right place and be in the right spirit to get the blessing. There was not anything wrong with the message the little maid gave.

F.B.F. In the beginning of 2 Kings, Elisha always brings in a supply of what is needed in the cases that he had to face. God has a way of meeting every situation in which we are. He has entrusted us with an immense treasure. Now that is sovereign. Why should it be in our lifetime? Therefore we have to guard it very carefully.

B.W.B. Elisha's ministry is one of grace, and grace is the line of supply. There are unlimited resources behind the supply in the heart of God.

F.B.F. Yes, but Satan tries to magnify the things that are against you and make the situation impossible. It is folly to get into the way he thinks, because he is going to fail. God has His supplies and the means of carrying through what He has committed to us at tremendous cost and exercise. We need to value it more.

B.W.B. It is a great encouragement that He has taken us up for that purpose.

N.E.L. The little maid's circumstances were not very congenial here, and many circumstances

that affect the saints practically are not, but God gives her a service to do, and we should accept the circumstances God places us in and seek to honour Him in those circumstances. Is that the way of blessing for us that we may grow before God?

B.W.B. Yes, very good. "Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do with thy might", Ecclesiastes 9:10. I think you find that that is the way that service develops. It is not that you aspire to do a certain service, it is that the Lord puts something in your way and He suggests that this is the service for you to do. If you take it up, He will give you the grace for it. Is not that the way things work?

R.G. The previous scriptures to this one refer to the word of Jehovah and to what is prophetic. Do you think that is something which is of immense value to us at the present time -- the word that comes to us, and how we value it?

B.W.B. Yes, the word is capable of great expansion and it is able to meet every need and every exercise. "The word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword" (Hebrews 4:12) and can be employed in many different ways to meet the exigencies of the moment, and the onslaughts of the enemy.

R.G. There is a sphere where the prophetic word may be heard -- that is, amongst the saints, in the assembly. It is important not to lose sight of the truth and light of the assembly because of the weakness of present conditions.

B.W.B. Yes, this little maid, typically, had taken the light and the blessing of that into a foreign sphere, which is an even greater test. For a young girl, it was a remarkable thing. She might well have decided to keep quiet in a foreign land, but she speaks out.

D.M.C. The previous scripture says that "the lamp of God had not yet gone out", 1 Samuel 3:3. Would that link with what has been said? There is still a testimony here at the present time.

B.W.B. We can say that today. The lamp of God has not yet gone out, and the addresses to the churches show that it will not go out until the Lord comes. There will be something here that answers to His heart when He comes for the saints.

J.L. Although she was in a foreign land, did she retain the characteristics formed in her from her upbringing? She is described as "the maid that is of the land of Israel" (verse 4).

B.W.B. Yes. I think of that hymn that we have, recently added to the book:

'Though in a foreign land,
We are not far from home' (Hymn 493).

It is good to remember that. Perhaps that comforted this little maid.

Perhaps we ought to go on to Josiah, in 2 Chronicles 34. There is another rapid and remarkable development here with this king, Josiah. He was king when he was only eight years old. That is a remarkable thing. His father was a wicked man and he only reigned two years, and his grandfather had been a wicked man too, although he had repented and humbled himself and God recognised that, and blessed his latter end. But still, this boy of eight was promoted to kingship and immediately it says, "He did what was right in the sight of Jehovah, and walked in the ways of David his father". It overlooks all the intervening line and goes back to David. We know that as Josiah's reign developed it was quite remarkable. Then you

have these further references: "And in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father", and then again, there is the twelfth year, and then the eighteenth year. He began to rebuild the house of Jehovah and finally he set on the service of God, and the passover that had not been held like that "from the days of Samuel the prophet", 2 Chronicles 35:18. It was a remarkable development.

J.G.F. Is it that as we seek after God we learn His standards and are able to judge, and purge out what is unsuitable to Him?

B.W.B. Yes, I think God has great delight in persons who work to His standards, recognise them and seek to regain those standards amongst His people. Although this boy was quite young, he began to have an influence for good, which is quite a remarkable thing.

O.W. The judgment was held up on account of Josiah's acts. Is that an interesting thing that God took account of it and He was prepared to go on with the people?

B.W.B. I think that is important, what one man who is with God can do, working out for blessing.

T.H.S. The little maid overcame in regard of her environment, but Josiah overcame in regard of his natural forebears. It is remarkable what God can do.

B.W.B. Yes. It is divine sovereignty, in a sense, but it is answered in the faithfulness and the devotion of the person concerned. There are always two sides -- divine sovereignty, and then faithfulness in man to answer to it -- if things are to be restored, secured and carried through.

T.H.S. Divine sovereignty remains, for God must be true to Himself. I think what you are bringing out is touching on the line of responsibility.

B.W.B. It is encouraging to see that quite young ones can begin to take up responsibility in this way. The eight-year-old boys here might think it rather fun to be king, but Josiah did not seem to look at it quite like that. He took it up in responsibility.

C.E.H. The recovery under Josiah was the last of the recoveries. His name was called three hundred years earlier by the man of God from Judah who said that God would raise up a man by the name of Josiah (1 Kings 13:2). I was wondering whether it bears very much on our time. There is no question that we are in the last period of the recovery before the Lord comes, and what Paul says to Timothy should be an encouragement to us, as to "the prophecies as to thee preceding", 1 Timothy 1:18. It seems to be very akin to what it says as to Josiah.

B.W.B. Yes, we clearly are in the last recovery of this dispensation. Josiah seems to be set here to learn God. "He began to seek after the God of David his father". I suppose he looked into the history and read about David and he realised the One who had been God for David would be God for him too, and he sought after Him.

J.H.H. I was thinking of the maintenance of the royal line as seen in David. He was concerned that that would be maintained.

B.W.B. Yes. He repaired the house and he restored the service of God and then he held that remarkable passover.

J.L. He "turned not aside to the right hand nor to the left". Would he have required to know the truth before he would have known what belonged to the right hand and to the left hand, so that he could walk in the straight way of Jehovah?

B.W.B. Yes, it is a straight path. "Thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it", Isaiah 30:21. It does not seem to provide there for any idea of turning to the right hand or to the left.

J.L. So we all need to follow up the teaching that has gone before and seek to encourage our younger brethren to do so too, that we may know the way that we ought to walk in.

B.W.B. Yes. The way began in the gospels when the Lord was personally here, then it is worked out in the Acts. I suppose if you want to know how to be in the way, and not turn aside, you must follow Paul's ministry.

D.M.C. The waters of the Red sea were "a wall to them on their right hand and on their left", Exodus 14:22. So would there be a link with baptism in what has just been said?

B.W.B. Yes, quite so. There was no turning aside there.

D.M.C. It does not matter where they looked, they would see the wall.

W.G. Would this matter of not turning to the right or to the left bring out the importance of being balanced in things?

B.W.B. Yes, I think that is a very good word, 'balanced'. We have known times when the pendulum swung from one side to the other, but the truth is a balanced idea and the plumb line rests in the middle.

J.G.F. Is the reference to "Jehovah his God" (verse 8) important? He maintained relations with divine Persons all the way through. I was thinking too about Timothy. It says, "that thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God's house", 1 Timothy 3:15.

B.W.B. Yes, Josiah did not learn about Jehovah his God from his father, for sure. I suppose he would have hardly been alive in his grandfather's day, but as to Manasseh it refers to his God: "his prayer to his God", 2 Chronicles 33:18. I suppose there would have been persons who could have helped Josiah in his youth as to God. It is an interesting thing to be able to speak about God in a personal way. Paul could say, "My God ..." Philippians 4:19. I think what you draw attention to is important.

M.P.W. Is it good that he takes on responsibility according to his development here? We read of these various ages, or years of his reign, and it ends up with him taking on things for the house of God.

B.W.B. I am glad you draw attention to that. That is very important, I think. It strengthens the line before us in these meetings, that as you reach successive ages, a greater responsibility is comely. He takes it up in that way, I think, showing the way that he developed spiritually.

R.G. Do you think the matter of over-coming which we are speaking about now is very much a sign of maturity? I was thinking of Josiah here and how that he really reversed much that had been done before in Israel. Do you think the addresses to the overcomers in the seven assemblies would bear on this?

B.W.B. Yes, there have been many things in the history of the testimony that have had to be reversed. The Lord has seen to it in His own way that they have been reversed so that the saints have been recovered to a greater understanding and enjoyment of the truth.

R.G. Recovery is still a possibility, even in these days.

B.W.B. Yes, surely. And there should be with us a testimony to what the recovery is all about and the purpose of it and the blessing of it. I suppose the great end in view in the recovery in which we find our part was the restoration of the service of God. Mr. Darby laid the foundation, but he did not actually open up much as to the service of God as following the Supper. That is found in J.T.'s ministry, C.A.C. and others helping too.

R.G. Do you think the service of God and the appreciation of it is directly linked with our appreciation of the assembly and what it is as a vessel to Christ and to God?

B.W.B. Yes. Hence you cannot begin to understand the truth in its right setting without Paul's ministry, because to him alone was given the truth of the mystery.

F.B.F. Does not what we are saying go on to the first verses of chapter 35? There were "Levites, that taught all Israel, and who were holy to Jehovah" (verse 3). Then the holy ark was to be put "in the house that Solomon the son of David, king of Israel, built; ye have not to carry it upon your shoulders", 2 Chronicles 35:3. Somebody has done some hard work for many years, but it was all in view of God's rest. It is remarkable what Josiah arrived at.

B.W.B. That is very encouraging. What began with the boy developed to a full appreciation of the ark in its place and the service of God restored.

J.G.F. Is that seen later in chapter 35? It says, "There was no passover like to that holden ... from the days of Samuel the prophet" (verse 18).

B.W.B. Yes.

P.A.G. It is striking that we speak of the service of God, and I would encourage our young ones to have their part in a way that would allow them to enter into that, but could you just say briefly what is the service of God?

B.W.B. I suppose it has many aspects. Any element of the divine work would be part of the service, but I was thinking primarily of what flows out of the Supper. At first, the Lord Jesus has real response from His own as His brethren, and then assembly response, then a touch too as to the Spirit, then leading into the presence of the Father and what flows to Him, and finally what flows to God Himself. It is a system of spiritual blessing for divine delight that has been opened up in the ministry of the last seventy or eighty years. But what do you say?

P.A.G. I think it is helpful for us to understand, because, as you say, it could mean a number of things. If we are seeking to encourage our younger brethren, then it is good that we should make clear what we are encouraging them about.

B.W.B. Very good, yes. If you look into the hymnbook, you will find the richness there that can be used in response to Christ, to the Spirit, to the Father, and to God Himself.

F.B.F. If something touches your heart on the occasion of the Supper, get up immediately and

just give expression to it. There is no need for a long thanksgiving. It is things from the heart that count. I know of somebody who was seeking after the truth, and who went to a meeting somewhere, and he said afterwards, 'I longed that somebody would get up and thank the Lord for His love, and it was absent'. It is what comes from the heart that matters.

B.W.B. Yes. We used to be told when we were young, 'Get up on an impression'. The Lord and the Spirit may fill it out a little. Often an impression comes in a line of a hymn. That is probably the way the Lord is leading at that moment. Get up and give expression to it; others will probably add to it.

F.B.F. The briefer it is, the better.

C.E.H. Does the word in the Song of Songs encourage the young ones as to what it means to the Lord? He says, "Let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice", Song of Songs 2:14. It means much to the heart of Christ for a young brother to get on his feet in the service of God.

B.W.B. Yes, quite so.

We ought to look at John 6. As we know, all the gospel writers tell us about the feeding of the five thousand, but only John tells us about this little boy. I think that is because John had a family outlook. He was a real father amongst the saints and he appreciated, and the Lord appreciated, what this little boy had. It was a real exercise that the crowds, the five thousand, should be fed. The Lord tests Philip and Andrew about it and they do not answer very well, but then Andrew says, "There is a little boy here who has five barley loaves and two small fishes". He seemed to excel all the others in forethought and provision, and the Lord takes it on.

I would like to encourage the little boys and little girls here. See that you have something. You will find it, as we were saying earlier, in the reading of the Scriptures and paying attention in the household readings, and in the meetings too, to what is said. You might get something which the Lord can use in this remarkable way.

J.G.F. Say a little about the barley loaves and the fishes, what the significance is.

B.W.B. The barley loaves speak of Christ, but it is a formed idea. It is not just something picked out of the field, but it has been made into loaves. I suppose he had brought them for his lunch, but it was good food. Then the fishes would be what has been sovereignly given.

J.G.F. It was what was made available and was ready to be partaken of.

B.W.B. And the Lord takes it on and gives His own touch to it, which transforms the whole situation.

T.H.S. It is "a little boy here". He is in the place where what he has is available and useful.

B.W.B. Very good. I would encourage the younger ones, and all of us too, not to get beyond, in one sense, where the little boy had reached, but to make sure we have something, because Andrew and Philip had not. They had no idea how to deal with the situation.

O.W. This is prefaced by "he knew what he was going to do" (verse 6). He is able in grace to take what a little boy had. That is a great encouragement. It fits into what the Lord Himself would do.

B.W.B. I think we can rest in that. The Lord always knows what He is going to do, and of course He knew this little boy was there too. He knew that he had the food and He would bring it

out in His time. We can rest in that; the Lord has everything under control, and if He has given a little boy something, then that is to be treasured and kept for the moment when it is needed.

J.L. One of the things the Lord did do was take the loaves and give thanks for them. That was a beautiful touch.

B.W.B. It was. It is what transformed the whole situation.

R.D.P. It was "a little boy" and it was "two small fishes". I wondered whether that was according to his measure in maturity.

B.W.B. Yes, very good. Even so, it is enough under the Lord's hands for the whole situation.

R.D.P. I was thinking of not expecting too much. The Lord can use what we have.

J.H.H. And it is more than enough. There were fragments over. It is what the Lord is able for, and more.

B.W.B. There was more left over for another day.

T.H.S. Should we value the Spirit's intercession that what we present is perfect when it is received by the Father?

B.W.B. Yes. It says, "he intercedes for saints according to God", Romans 8:27.

J.S.G. Can you help us as to why it is only the loaves that are gathered up here?

B.W.B. The loaves, as we have said, specially speak of Christ. I suppose it is what is of Christ that is carried through, perhaps for a later occasion. It is never exhausted. The fishes being the sovereign provision of God may be just for the moment. I do not know whether that is right, or commends itself to you.

M.R.C. It was apparently very small. "What is it for so many?" Yet do we find that five barley loaves under the hand of Christ -- any impression of Him -- is capable of infinite expansion? I am thinking of the five-fold aspect of the title in Isaiah 9, and how much we found in that. How full any impression of Christ is!

B.W.B. That is very helpful. We should not measure things by our own standards and look at them and say how small they are; we should realise that if they are impressions of Christ we will never exhaust them.

R.G. Would it be a great encouragement to our younger brethren to be assured that what they had was usable? The Lord would show His approval of what is brought by taking it up and making use of it. That would strengthen us in view of service.

B.W.B. Yes, it does not tell us anything about the effect on the little boy, but it must have been a great encouragement to him, that what he had brought that day, which I suppose he was probably going to eat himself, the Lord had taken on and had done something marvellous with it. As we have said, there was still more left over and he would be enjoying that, I think.

R.G. It would be the beginning of what you spoke of as "Wonderful".

B.W.B. Yes, very good.

N.E.L. Would this be a help to those who may be starting in the pathway of service, perhaps taking up the preaching for the first time? To get an essential impression of the Lord is sufficient to go forward in relation to service. Commit that impression to the Lord and set it on.

B.W.B. Very good. I think that greatly helps in the preaching or any other service. We are not to work it all out, but to have an impression and then we find a scripture that supports it. Then I think the Lord will give the grace to expand it as much as is needed. But, as here, there were the twelve hand-baskets left over. The impression will still remain, and there may be aspects that were not spoken of that we can still feed upon.

R.V.G. So, feeding on the right food is helpful in a practical way in relation to the thought of maturity that you are bringing before us. Would you say that we see it in Daniel and his companions too?

B.W.B. Yes, very good. So Mr. Coates has spoken of this chapter as the Food of Life ⁺. It develops into the spiritual thought of food, eating Christ (verse 51), eating His flesh and drinking His blood (verses 53 - 56), and then finally eating Me (verse 57), which is really appropriating Him as and where He is.

⁺C.A.C. Volume 17, pages 1-4

YOUTHFUL MATURITY (3)

Genesis 37:2, 3; Genesis 41:37 - 46; Exodus 17:8 - 16; Exodus 33:11; Ruth 2:8 - 16; Ruth 4:11, 12; 1 Timothy 4:11 - 16; Philippians 2:19, 20

B.W.B. We are considering in these meetings the thought of youthful maturity. We had the Lord Jesus Himself before us in the first reading, and then in the second reading a number of young ones in Scripture who were helped to develop in maturity and service, even though very young. This morning I wondered if we might look at these four -- Joseph, Joshua, Ruth and Timothy. They are persons that are at least in their teens, or perhaps early adulthood, and therefore there is greater development with them in these features of maturity. They are beginning to take their place in relation to the Lord's testimony and to be useful. I wondered if the Lord would help us to look at this further development. We have read rather a lot of scriptures, but it is in mind to cover the scope of these four persons, three men and one woman. Every one of them, I think, was delightful under the eye of God.

So first we have Joseph. As we know, in many ways Joseph is a type of Christ, but I was not thinking of that side so much, but rather that we might regard him as a young man developing, and maturing very quickly in relation to the interests of the Lord. We read of him in chapter 37 as a young man of seventeen. That is a great milepost and test in any young believer's history. It becomes a test -- which way are you going to go at that age? The world makes a great bid for teenagers, but the Lord has a great interest in those in their teens. They can

be useful to Him. What strikes one as to these verses in chapter 37 is that Joseph is extremely lovable. Often at that age, in the world, teenagers are anything but lovable. They are marked by lawlessness and self-will, and of course that could mark any one of us. He was loved by his father. "Israel loved Joseph more than all his sons". You see him here in youthful freshness, I believe, the coat of many colours bringing out the glories and distinctions that marked him.

Then in a matter of thirteen years, which lie between these two scriptures in Genesis, Joseph was promoted to a great place in administration. We see an encouraging picture in Joseph of what the Lord can do with one who is committed in this way. We see him here "doing service" with his brothers, and he brought an evil report of them, or of their evil discourse. He had discernment and right desires, and the father loved him.

R.G. Do you think the formation of the work of God is an encouragement to the saints, but it is first of all pleasurable to God Himself to see these features of Christ reproduced?

B.W.B. Yes. I think we should set ourselves to have that in view. As we were saying yesterday, God has His eye upon every one of us. He had His eye on Joseph, I think, with great delight.

T.H.S. He is serving with "the sons of Bilhah, and with the sons of Zilpah". Would that be a reminder of the character of the service that he took on? It is bond service; their mothers were bondmaids. Would it be a reminder of the Lord in what He did, that love likes to serve?

B.W.B. Yes, I think so. In a way it would link with "He came to his own, and his own received him not", John 1:11. Jacob loved him, but the

brothers did not. They hated him, as it says of Christ, "They hated me without a cause", John 15:25. Joseph seems to go on, undisturbed by these adverse influences. We have not read all these chapters in between, but there is much discipline in them and he learns through that discipline. It says many times that "Jehovah made all that he did to prosper in his hand", Genesis 39:3. It is interesting that between these ages of seventeen and thirty, as a young man, he learnt much and what he did prospered, even in the most uncongenial circum-stances. I wondered if that might be an encouragement to those who are at this juncture in their lives. If they commit themselves to the Lord and His interests, the Lord will prosper them. We see the fruit of it when he comes out in chapter 41 over the land of Egypt.

J.G.F. Would his feeding the flock with his brethren be a commendable feature?

B.W.B. Yes. Joseph was not to the fore as a shepherd, like David and others, but he did begin that way, with shepherd service. He would have understood something of what it was to be a shepherd and to do service in that way. He did not find the company of his brothers congenial.

J.G.F. We can all take on that lowly service in some measure.

B.W.B. Yes. I think there is a great need for shepherding. Jacob had been a shepherd and I suppose Joseph would have learned a good deal from Jacob's own experience.

J.L. Could you say a little more about love underlying all true service?

B.W.B. I think that is an important principle. It has been said we will never serve the saints rightly unless we love them, and I suppose love for

Christ comes before that too. Then Christ has Himself shown the way in which service is based on love (Exodus 21:1 - 6).

J.L. Yes, I am sure that is right. I was thinking of what you said about the circumstances. We may be daunted by the circumstances, but if love underlies the service, it becomes a great motivating power.

B.W.B. I think so. Whilst he had this judgment of his brothers here, at the end of the book you find that he loved them. They did not love him, and they were still not too sure of his attitude, but Joseph loved them all the way through. He would have them to be recognised as his brethren. He would gradually bring them round through discipline, that they might receive him and that he might make himself known to them.

D.M.C. Do you think Joseph was conscious of his father's love for him? Do you think in that way we should be attractive to our young people as they know that we love them?

B.W.B. I think that is very important. Jacob certainly loved Joseph, but he also expressed it in the coat of many colours.

D.M.C. Love is a practical thing.

B.W.B. Yes, quite so. Service has been referred to, and it is a practical thing.

F.B.F. Presenting your body a living sacrifice is a definite matter in your soul, because all your actions proceed from your body and from your mind and affections.

B.W.B. Yes, do you think that the spirit seen in Joseph carried him through the prison experiences and all that he experienced too, as being sold into Egypt? It says in Psalm 105:18, 19, "His soul came into irons; Until the time when

what he said came about". We have his dreams later on in this chapter and eventually they were fulfilled, but he went through a line of pressure and discipline before they came about.

F.B.F. In our own histories is it good to be well acquainted with the holy sufferings of Christ as individuals in our private communion, and to be affected by that?

B.W.B. Yes, it is real food for the soul and it develops a constitution that, in our measure, will go through suffering if needed.

C.E.H. Was bringing his father an evil report of his brethren a basic matter with Joseph of the judgment of evil that preserved him right through? When he was tested in Egypt, he did not give way to evil, and then in his faithfulness to his brethren, in bringing them round, he did not overlook the evil. It is delightful to God when we as believers are formed in a moral constitution that keeps us from evil and preserves us.

B.W.B. I think that is found in Joseph, peculiarly so. When he was tested by Potiphar's wife, he says, "How should I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" Genesis 39:9. He would not do that great evil. So there is uprightness there all the way through with Joseph. I think it is important at this age, in teenage years, that we do develop a critical ability in that way to discern what is right from what is wrong, and pursue the right as helped of the Lord.

R.G. Isaiah says, "Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and to choose the good", Isaiah 7:15. That would be a process in which discipline would be a help to us.

B.W.B. I think that is helpful. Good food in a spiritual sense would help us on this line of

discernment and strengthen us to take the right path.

R.G. Yes, indeed. The Supper would bear on that.

B.W.B. Yes, it would.

In chapter 41 we have Joseph, having been through many experiences, put into this position of prominence and glory in Egypt. I thought it was interesting that in the space of thirteen years he had developed from a teenager into a remarkable young man. There was no one like him. Pharaoh says, "Shall we find one as this?" I think it is very encouraging to young ones that these things may develop very rapidly and we may become persons that the Lord can use. Joseph was an administrator, and there is need for that amongst the saints.

R.G. Yes, there is.

B.W.B. You may say that administration is in the hands of the Lord Himself, and so it is, but He uses one and another to work out His designs in that way, and to supply what is needed in the administration amongst the saints.

R.G. That is where the glory to God comes in. The Lord could do everything Himself, but His glory is seen in that the saints become like Him and act as He would act.

B.W.B. Yes. Joseph, as we know, rises in this section remarkably to a type of Christ. Let us just remember too, that he was still a young man and this is actual history; it happened. If it happened for Joseph, it can happen for others too.

J.L. The primary function of his administration seemed to be connected with supply.

B.W.B. Yes. The food supply primarily, I suppose, and also the distribution of it.

J.L. Yes. I was wondering what you might have had in mind when you said there was need for administrators or administration amongst us.

B.W.B. Well, there is need for administration, I suppose, in several ways. It would link with the food supply and what is ministered in that way for the health and edification of the Lord's people; but then there are also matters of care, which have to be attended to, and I suppose there is more too. There is a great administration under the hand of the Lord that characterises the assembly as a vessel here administering things in the time of His absence. Perhaps you can add to that.

J.L. I am sure that is right. To the extent that even angels are looking down and taking account of God's wisdom as seen in expression in administration in the assembly?

B.W.B. I always find that a challenging verse, the authorities in the heavenlies looking on to behold in the assembly the all-various wisdom of God (Ephesians 3:10). No doubt it was seen perfectly in Christ, but the divine thought is that that should be carried through now in the assembly in the time of His absence.

D.M.C. Do you think what the vest of many colours might speak of would fit him for the position that he had in Egypt?

B.W.B. Yes, there is a variety, glory upon glory.

D.M.C. It fitted him morally for the position which he now fills.

B.W.B. That is important, especially in those teenage years, that what is moral should be formed in the soul. There is certain bedrock there then that can be depended upon.

T.H.S. It is interesting what you are at. Yesterday we touched on the idea that God was able to make up for the years that the canker-worm had eaten in regard of some that may be brought in to serve at a later age. But if you look back historically, if God is working, He generally uses someone of about this age. We see it in the recovery -- young men in their twenties who came together early on. If something is to be effected, this is a very necessary time.

B.W.B. I am glad you allude to that. I think it is helpful. That is the normal thought. God goes up stream a long way and usually takes persons up in their youth. He did with Timothy, as we will come to later, with David and many others. It is not that God cannot sovereignly bring in someone older at times, but I think this is the normal way of development and we should lay ourselves open at this young age to receive divine impressions.

T.H.S. Also that would be specially marked in Saul of Tarsus. "The witnesses laid aside their clothes at the feet of a young man called Saul", Acts 7:58. God had His eye on Saul, and soon he was sovereignly called.

B.W.B. Yes. In his own soul history, he went back even further than that. He realised afterwards that God had "set me apart even from my mother's womb", Galatians 1:15. It did not appear to be so in his early days; it was the very reverse, but he must have had a sense that God had had to do with him right at the beginning. He had been kicking against it, and maybe there are persons here -- maybe we have all done it -- who kick against it, but God will have His own way in the end.

J.H.H. Chapter 39 is very encouraging. We did not read it, but it says that "Jehovah was with

Joseph" (verse 2) and "Jehovah was with him; and what he did, Jehovah made it prosper" (verse 23).

B.W.B. Yes, many times it comes in: Jehovah made all that Joseph did to prosper. That is a wonderful thing. I think we should covet that, that what we put our hands to is prospered. Does the Lord prosper it or not, because He would desire to do that wherever He could.

J.H.H. It is one thing to be with God, and another thing to have God with us.

B.W.B. Yes, very good.

F.B.F. Do you think sowing to the Spirit in a deliberate way helps this development? Some of us were helped in the matter of the Spirit, that we give place to the Spirit by an act of mind, what we put our minds upon, what is of God.

B.W.B. Yes, you sow in view of fruit. I think sowing to the Spirit would have in mind spiritual development, spiritual fruit. I do not think the Spirit of God would ever disappoint us in that. If we give time to Him and lay ourselves open to what the Spirit is seeking to do in our hearts and souls, there will be fruit.

F.B.F. And impressions you receive at a very early age are of the Spirit of God, and they run through your life.

B.W.B. I suppose that was seen with Joseph in his dreams. He no doubt carried it with him, and of course it came to pass eventually, although he must have wondered about it. He was sold into the hand of the Ishmaelites and then put into prison, unjustly charged and so on. He must have wondered how it was all going to work out, but it did.

R.D.P. What would you say as to the matter of "discreet"? I wondered whether that would link with subjection to the Spirit.

B.W.B. It is the principle of wisdom working out. "There is none so discreet and wise as thou".

R.D.P. I was thinking of the word, "Be careful in his presence", Exodus 23:21. Discretion would be a matter of being careful in what we say and what we do.

B.W.B. Yes, I think that helps. As young men and women we may not always be marked by discretion, and we all have to watch it too.

C.E.H. You were saying God was with him. Does that point to piety? The spiritual side with Joseph is predominant early, but is piety a most important matter in our lives, that is, bringing God into all our matters, however simple, however practical? God was with him. Alongside of that, there is spirituality.

B.W.B. Yes, the thought of piety is greatly to be desired. It says of Simeon he was "just and pious, awaiting the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him", Luke 2:25. It says in Psalm 4:3 that "Jehovah hath set apart the pious man for himself". That would link with what you say about God being with us.

C.E.H. There is a lot of pressure from the present conditions in the world, on young persons getting employment and raising a family, and the pressure on brethren in business. These things are intended of God to teach us as to Himself, that we may count on Him and prove His help in these things. When we come into the assembly, we come into a different sphere altogether, but we should come in the gain of what we have learnt in the area of piety, and having God with us.

B.W.B. Yes, you come into the assembly in that way as having learned these things, and there is a sense in which they are formed in your soul

too. So you come in in the light of all that God has been to you in those practical circumstances. That would bring about a certain experience that would be valuable in assembly matters.

C.E.H. J.T. said once that there was a brother who wanted him to give up his business, to serve the saints. He refused to do so, saying, 'I need the discipline of business life'.

B.W.B. I think that is helpful. I remember that comment, and I am sure it is right.

P.A.G. It says, "It is good for me that I have been afflicted, that I might learn thy statutes", Psalm 119:71. But then later on in the same psalm it says, "Great peace have they that love thy law, and nothing doth stumble them" (verse 165). Do you think Joseph had been through the affliction and had reached the point where he would not be stumbled? Whether it was the matter in the house of Potiphar, or whether it was the exaltation, he was not going to be stumbled by these things.

B.W.B. Very good. There are things that come into our lives that might tend to stumble us, but God "is able to keep you without stumbling", Jude 24. I think as you learn those lessons, you come to a point where you might stumble, but God preserves you from it. That is strengthening, is it not? Here Joseph is blossoming forth into a position of governmental administration for which he seems to be completely able. He had been in God's school, not in the universities of this world. I would recommend to all the young ones that they read Mr. Stoney's book, 'Discipline in the School of God' ⁺ and see what he says about Joseph, and many others too.

⁺J.B.S. Volume 13

P.H.B. What would help us to be maintained during such a period of discipline and testing?

B.W.B. I suppose Joseph never forgot those dreams. He had a sense that God was going to bring him through, but it must have been difficult for him to reconcile it with present circumstances at times. Do you think if we have the light that God has in mind to bless us and to use us, too, in His service, that would help us to overcome?

P.H.B. Would that link with the purpose of God? Christ was to be exalted, typically, in those dreams.

B.W.B. Yes. So I think it is a good idea to read Ephesians often, because that gives you the stability to face the changing and varying circumstances.

J.L. Is he an example for us as one who clung to it the whole of his life? There is an interesting reference in Hebrews 11:22 to him: "By faith Joseph when dying called to mind the going forth of the sons of Israel". He never gave up the thoughts of God right to the end of his life.

B.W.B. Very good. I think we need to act on that principle too.

W.W.W. Would Psalm 1 help us in these exercises? It refers to what our associations should be, and how we should maintain them.

B.W.B. You mean you have "the man that walketh not in the counsel of the wicked, and standeth not in the way of sinners" (verse 1)? Joseph clearly acted very distinctly on that principle. "His delight is in Jehovah's law" (verse 2). There is a certain line of prosperity in that psalm which clearly links with Joseph's history.

J.G.F. Would there be something to learn from the clothing here? Would we require that if we are to serve aright? "Clothes of byssus".

B.W.B. Yes. There is a certain purity in that, and the dignity in the gold chain. He is exalted here by Pharaoh and given this remarkable place.

R.G. Do you think what you referred to yesterday would bear on this -- the matter of sonship as underlying service? If we have a conscious sense of the dignity of the position which we already occupy in God's sight, as in Christ, that would help us as to the level of things that we should maintain.

B.W.B. Yes. I suppose Joseph set out the principle of sonship in relation to Jacob more than any of the others. They were all Jacob's sons, but "Israel loved Joseph more than all his sons". It is sovereignty in the father there. I think that is important. We never lose the sense of the dignity and the relationship of sonship.

Perhaps we ought to move on now to Joshua in Exodus 17. It does not tell us how old Joshua was, but he is referred to in chapter 33 still as a young man. Clearly, he was in his formative years. This is the first mention of him in Scripture. He is to choose men and go out and fight with Amalek. As we know, this section would have some link with Romans 7. It is an alternating conflict. I think the power of Amalek is the power that Satan has in the flesh, and that is something that we have to get the victory over, something that young men and young women particularly have to face. As we know, it is met in the light of Moses' intercession on high, upheld by Aaron and Hur. There are certain features that enter into this, and it is to be written for Joshua. He is never to forget this -- or, at least,

he should not have done. He did forget it, when he went up to Ai. He forgot there the need for dependence.

R.G. Do you think the experiences that we speak of as connected with Romans 7 can be protracted and they can involve what you have mentioned -- waxing and waning -- but it is all intended to deepen in our souls the reality of the exercise and make it permanent with us?

B.W.B. Yes, I think so. You get through into chapter 8, into the sunshine, "There is then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus" (verse 1). Of course, we will still find that the enemy will attack. "Jehovah will have war with Amalek from generation to generation!" But this was a distinct point reached in Joshua's history, and he won the victory. As long as Moses' hands were uplifted, the battle went in their favour.

R.G. Is that an important point, that we should become used to the thought of victory? We are so taken up with defeat and breakdown. The fact is, the line of things we are connected with is a victorious one, marked by the Lord's rising from amongst the dead.

B.W.B. I think we might say the war has been won, the Lord has won the war, but there are certain battles that still go on.

J.G.F. That is why it is necessary that things should be rehearsed.

B.W.B. Yes. "Rehearse it in the ears of Joshua". There is no doubt about the power on high, but faith on our side is what really makes it practical and makes it work.

F.B.F. That gives the victory.

T.H.S. Are we taken from the concept of "Art thou for us, or for our enemies?" (Joshua 5:13)

to "No; for as captain of the army of Jehovah am I now come" (verse 14)? There is no question there of whether it is victory or not.

B.W.B. Yes, quite so. I think that would link with what has just been said, that we should be assured that the victory has been won.

D.C. You referred to our faith in the power of the arms of the Lord in Moses' hands being upheld. Do you think that we need to have priestliness in our dealings with our young brethren in these exercises that we have been speaking about, which would include patience with them too?

B.W.B. I think that is very good. The presence of Aaron would suggest that. There is what is priestly there, and what is pure in Hur, as well. These features would help to strengthen the younger ones in relation to this conflict.

P.J.S.McM. Moses says, "Choose us men". It is not just a question of his own prowess, but he is doing it on behalf of all, and so our exercises would be today.

B.W.B. Yes. Moses, in this way, entrusts things to Joshua, a young man. I suppose Moses had watched Joshua's development and he is able to give him this mission to "choose us men". I suppose Joshua would choose men like himself, I mean in a right sense. He would have known others too who were facing this conflict and would have a measure of power in relation to it.

P.J.S.McM. Although there was personal exercise in it, it was on behalf of all.

B.W.B. Yes, quite so.

J.G.F. Would this altar and the name of it, confirm in our souls that it is not in our own

strength that we arrive at these things? 'Jehovah my banner'.

B.W.B. It is a good thing to see the banner. It says elsewhere, "When the adversary shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of Jehovah will lift up a banner against him", Isaiah 59:19. I think that links with what was said about the victory too. The banner would ensure that the victory is ours. The Spirit comes in too in Romans 8 as a result of our having faced the exercises of chapter 7.

P.A.G. What does it mean when it says, "the hand is on the throne of Jah"?

B.W.B. Do you think it shows how near the enemy can get to what is vital? The enemy is not interested in worldly christians; he is set against those who consider for the rights of God. The throne of Jah would ensure His rights, and the enemy would displace that in our hearts and minds. But perhaps you have some thought.

P.A.G. I think that is right. We have been speaking about the truth of Romans. Romans would fit us for the kingdom, and it is important that our young brethren understand that coming under God's regulation and the regulation of the Lord Himself is an important step on the way to being serviceable. Amalek is against that, all that the throne would speak of. We do need to be regulated.

B.W.B. Yes. So it is a great thing to find one's place in the kingdom. It makes way too for finding one's place in the assembly. The kingdom underlies the assembly, as we have been taught. You will never really be happy and free in the truth of the assembly, unless you have learned to be a subject in the kingdom. So Romans, as apprehended

and enjoyed, makes way for Colossians and Ephesians.

D.M.C. We are assured that hades' gates will never prevail against the assembly, but hades' gates will never stop trying.

B.W.B. No, and whilst they will not prevail against the assembly, there is always a chance of them prevailing against an individual. We might, for a time, go under in this conflict.

F.B.F. One thing that helps you over the matter of deliverance from the flesh is occupation with Christ. It is no good trying to improve or restrain the flesh; you will have it to your dying day. But the measure of deliverance is occupation with Christ.

B.W.B. I think that is very helpful. So Romans 7:25 brings us to the Deliverer: "I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord". Deliverance is in a Person, in another Man.

F.B.F. I may know that Christ is the Deliverer, but how do I get delivered?

B.W.B. With the eye on Him, and knowing practically that the man that is gone from God's eye is gone from my eye too.

F.B.F. I think that is a very important point. There again, ministry has come in and helped, and I found it a great help practically.

B.W.B. Yes.

P.A.G. Is it helpful to understand what our place is? "I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord". He is the One who is our Deliverer. "There is then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus", Romans 8:1. That is where we are. We are "in Christ Jesus" as delivered persons.

B.W.B. Yes, we are in God's sight anyway. Those verses really bring us to the practical

realisation of it. They bring us on to the rock, the stability. If there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, I can stand there with perfect assurance. It does not mean that the enemy will not come back for a further attack, but I can always resort to the rock.

M.R.C. So conflict goes right through to Ephesians 6, where the apostle exhorts us to "take to you the panoply of God ... and, having accomplished all things, to stand" (verse 13). I wondered if in standing we see youthful maturity.

B.W.B. Very good. I suppose in Ephesians you have conflict at its height, in a sense, because the saints are enjoying something of the purpose of God, and are in the full light of the outshining of divine truth. There is still need for protection. Most of the conflict there and the armour is defensive, except for the sword of the Spirit, but it is all supplied and it is all necessary.

C.E.H. We need to see that human effort in divine things will get us nowhere. Is that the lesson of Romans 7? God has condemned sin in the flesh, and if we accept that in the faith of our souls, we then love the One who died. It is not only occupation with Him in our minds, but that Person has come into my soul and that has rendered my body dead on account of sin. The Spirit can take over from there and is life on account of righteousness.

B.W.B. So the soul is occupied with the One who is the Deliverer, and the One whose present grace is fully available to fill our hearts and souls, and to free us from the man of sin and shame. As has been said, the more the mind and heart are engaged with Him, the more we shall be free.

C.E.H. The just is not only saved by faith, but the just lives by faith, and the need to maintain deliverance, I find, is a basic matter that we have to resort to nearly every day.

B.W.B. So having triumphed in that way, through faith, the next thing is to receive the gift of the Spirit. The two things go inseparably together. We need faith and we need the Spirit, that we might be maintained in the true path of the believer here, living in the gain of deliverance.

O.W. Does the continuance of the victory depend on our believing that Jesus is the Son of God? That is what John says gets the victory over the world (1 John 5:5). It is another Man in another place. That is what sustains us in the victory.

B.W.B. I think it is helpful to lay hold of that. If we are to know Christ now, that is where we must know Him, the centre of another world. We cannot know Him here; He is not here in flesh and blood. If we have to do with Him, we have to do with Him in glory, the Son of God, as you say.

T.H.S. Say more as to the place of the Spirit in this. A young person may say, 'I do not have faith for the pathway', but nobody could say that the Spirit was not sufficient on the testimonial side. This is the introduction in connection with Joshua.

B.W.B. Did not Mr. Darby say to Mr. Stoney, 'Have you got faith for it?' and Mr. Stoney said, 'Faith or not, I cannot stay where I am'. ⁺ It is not a question exactly of waiting for faith. "The apostles said to the Lord, Give more faith to us. But the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed ...", Luke 17:5, 6. They already had it; it is not

⁺J.B.S. Volume 6, page 48

exactly a question of the measure of it. I think the Spirit commits Himself to one moving in living faith.

We ought to look at Ruth. This book is a very beautiful one. I think it is fine to have a young woman before us too, who shines in her complete devotion in affection for Naomi who, for us, would represent the testimony. Through that, she is led step by step to become acquainted with Boaz. She comes to know him, she comes to love him and he comes to love her too. I think there is maturity with this young woman. She is referred to at the end of the book (I just read those verses for that point) as a young woman. This section that we read in chapter 2 is very beautiful. Boaz has to do with her. He had learned a good deal about her, and he speaks of it here. I would encourage the young ones. The Lord knows all about you. If you have been faithful and stepped out in this way in any measure, He knows that and He will reward it.

F.B.F. This is coming into fellowship, is it not?

B.W.B. Yes.

F.B.F. You sit beside the reapers.

B.W.B. She is well fed in this section.

J.G.F. Would it be important to pay attention to "the field which is being reaped"? They are the words of Boaz here. That is where spiritual prosperity and growth will be brought about.

B.W.B. I think that would link with what was said just now about coming into fellowship. It is the fellowship of God's Son, of course; it is not any sectarian idea. The idea of "the field which is being reaped" is that there is fruitfulness for God and for the enjoyment of the saints at the present moment.

P.A.G. If someone wanted to come into fellowship, what should they do about it?

B.W.B. I suppose Ruth follows the divine leading. She makes her committal -- that is one thing. There would be a committal individually. "Thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God", Ruth 1:16. She commits herself to the end of her days to the testimony. That would be one thing, but then I think the gleaning would be another indication. She is looking out for the food supply. Then thirdly, she comes into touch with Boaz. Is that not the spring of the desire to come into fellowship, that you love the Lord and you want to please Him? But you perhaps had something more in mind in the question.

P.A.G. If someone wanted to break bread, they would need to tell someone. Tell their parents, tell the local brethren. It is important that these things are simple. They are very profound, but they need to be made simple for our young brethren.

B.W.B. Yes, very good. Then the person who was told would probably ask a question or two as to what moved the young one to ask to break bread. Some have said that they want to please the Lord. That is a good reason, is it not? Others may be like Ruth. She saw something in Naomi; perhaps she could not explain or define it, but it was something that attracted her out of Moab.

J.L. Would you care to distinguish between the two -- being in fellowship, and asking to remember the Lord in the breaking of bread?

B.W.B. I think we understand that you would normally be in fellowship first. You would really be enjoying that area of things and what is proceeding amongst the saints. You would have some sense that the Lord was there, and blessing

His own. That would underlie the desire to commit yourself in the breaking of bread.

J.L. Yes. I was thinking that a person constitutes himself to be in fellowship by his or her actions, and I believe some of our younger brethren have. They should be encouraged to take the second step and that is, ask to remember the Lord Jesus, if they have the desire in their hearts.

B.W.B. There are many cases of young ones who have been in fellowship in practical terms, maybe for quite a long time before they actually ask to break bread.

D.M.C. Is the matter of the Spirit important in this connection?

B.W.B. Having the Spirit, you mean? Yes, quite so.

D.M.C. How do you discern a person having the Spirit?

B.W.B. Again I would say, if young ones are happy amongst the saints and enjoying something of the meetings, and appreciating what is of Christ there, it is surely an indication. Then you have the practical test, if they can really speak affectionately of the Lord Jesus. That is an evidence too of the Spirit. I suppose you would also tell in the prayer of a person.

D.M.C. You would know by their conversation, would you?

B.W.B. Yes.

J.D.McM. "If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another", 1 John 1:7. It is practical, is it not?

B.W.B. Yes, very good.

D.C. In relation to the matter of the Spirit, do you think there would be something of the "parted tongues, as of fire", Acts 2:3. There would

be something different after, from what there was before.

B.W.B. Yes, I think that is helpful.

R.G. When asked a similar question, J.T. said one of the things he would look for was love for the saints, and he quoted the scripture, "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren", 1 John 3:14 ⁺.

B.W.B. I think that confirms what we have said, that a young one feels at home and is seen to be at home amongst the saints. Where else are you going to feel at home today, if you have affection for Christ?

F.B.F. You come out to the Lord, not to your parents or anyone else. I think that is an important matter, because matters may arise later on and you may go the way your parents go and it might be the wrong way.

B.W.B. Does that not come out in Ruth? She had left all that irrevocably. She had no intention of going back to Moab, even though tested by Naomi. "Do not intreat me to leave thee", Ruth 1:16. She had left all that line of what was natural. She had seen something attractive in Naomi and they came back at a good time, the time of the barley harvest and she begins to glean. It is very precious. I think the way Boaz speaks to her is very fine too. It brings out the fact that he had watched her. "It has fully been shewn me, all that thou hast done to thy mother-in-law". Then he says, "Come hither and eat of the bread, and dip thy morsel in the vinegar. And she sat beside the reapers; and he reached her parched corn, and she

⁺J.T. Volume 68, pages 446, 447

ate and was sufficed, and reserved some". She is really coming fully into fellowship and enjoying it.

T.H.S. Then the matter arises, who do you meet with, or what do you belong to? It is a very practical question to answer. I know F.E.R. says he does not own any company. She belonged to Boaz.

B.W.B. Yes, committal is to the Lord Himself first of all, but then there are others too. We walk with those who "pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart", 2 Timothy 2:22.

T.H.S. I think that is important, because when she came and the reapers were working away, it has been said she came to the point that "he is a Jew who is so inwardly", Romans 2:29. That was balm for her soul. She belonged to that without any external justification.

B.W.B. Yes, and there was a plentiful food supply. She began to assimilate it, and through that, she comes personally in touch with Boaz. In the next chapter she becomes even more acquainted with him, until she becomes his wife.

J.H.W. What Boaz says is, "Keep here with my maidens ... And when thou art athirst, go to the vessels and drink of what the young men draw". It is the right company.

B.W.B. She says, "I am not like one of thy handmaidens", but as she kept with them, she would become like them. They would all have an appreciation of Boaz.

D.M.C. It speaks in Revelation about coming in by the gates into the city (Revelation 22:14). Do you think the young people should have a sense of the glory and dignity of what they are coming into?

B.W.B. Yes, I think so. The washing of the robes was linked by J.T. very much with coming

into fellowship. They have the right. As he said, we do not exactly receive people; they establish their right to go in by the gates into the city ⁺.

R.D.P. Then she is called "a woman of worth", Ruth 3:11. That is not only to Boaz, but do you think that in the fellowship such a person would be of great value, of worth to the assembly?

B.W.B. Yes, I think so. It obviously links with Proverbs 31 where you have the woman of worth, and features there that are faithful to Christ in the time of His absence.

F.B.F. You come out to principles and not persons. Moses pitched that tent far off from the camp, and each one went out to Jehovah (Exodus 33:7). I think the principles that govern what is of the Lord in fellowship and so on, need to be gathered by the gleaners.

B.W.B. I think so. It was said years ago, look after the principles and God will look after the persons. Not that you want to take that to extremity, for we do need to look after the persons as well and we care for one another, but principles do come first.

F.B.F. If persons inquire as to why you walk with those with whom you do walk, all I could say is, 'I feel the Lord would have me do so'.

B.W.B. That was one of the things Mr. Coates said: You look for a living and spiritual ministry of Christ ⁺⁺. You look for where the Lord is active in that way, in ministering to His people, and that is the place for me to be.

M.R.C. In Psalm 45:10, 11, the psalmist says, "Hearken, daughter, and see, and incline thine ear;

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⁺⁺C.A.C. Letters, page 232

and forget thine own people and thy father's house: And the king will desire thy beauty". Is one thing in seeking to remember the Lord to have an impression of the desires of Christ? If I am committed to the Lord and His interests, I will have it in my soul, that the Lord has need of me.

B.W.B. I think that is a beautiful verse, and very much links with this book of Ruth. She forgot her people and her father's house, and it is obvious that Boaz greatly desired her beauty. He did not rest until he had her as his wife. The verses we read at the end of the book show what fruitfulness came out of that. She was the great-grandmother of David. Think of that -- a Moabitess brought in, in that way, to the royal line!

We ought to speak of Timothy because it is very important, perhaps he is the most important one of the four, because it has a distinct link with our day. Timothy was a very precious young man because he was so near to Paul, so valued by Paul. There are many sections we could have read as to him, but these verses in 1 Timothy 4 are where Paul is exhorting him, "Let no one despise thy youth". Timothy was to demonstrate these features. There would not be any possibility of despisal, because it would be obvious that he was a prosperous young man spiritually. "But be a model of the believers, in word, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity".

T.H.S. Did he have the benefit of spiritual maternal forebears? I was thinking of the comparison with Samuel.

B.W.B. Yes, very good. "The unfeigned faith ... which dwelt first in thy grandmother ... and in thy mother" 2 Timothy 1:5. He was acquainted with the Holy Scriptures from a very early age. So there

was material there that Paul could link on with and take him up at a critical time, when Mark had defected.

J.G.F. It says, "Him would Paul have go forth with him", Acts 16:3. He would be acquainted with Paul and his ministry.

B.W.B. Yes, and eventually began to serve with Paul. "Paul and Silvanus and Timotheus", 1 Thessalonians 1:1. It would have been quite a test to preach with Paul.

R.G. It has often been said that in Acts we are told that his father was a Greek (Acts 16:1), but here it is not mentioned. Do you think that would encourage us? We might look back on the history and see the mixed line of things, but the fact is that God's thoughts are going through in purity, and the thing is to be preserved in the light of these.

B.W.B. Yes, that is helpful. This is to a young man. "Let no one despise thy youth". It is a great thing if the Lord is blessing a young man, and He is blessing young men and young women amongst us. There should not be any thought of despisal in it, but rather rejoicing that the Lord is bestowing something by way of gift on a young one. As they are subject, and as they develop in dependence, they will become useful.

R.G. It is a clear indication that He is minded to continue with the testimony, and we should give thanks for that.

B.W.B. Then Paul has certain definite exhortations here. "Till I come, give thyself to reading, to exhortation, to teaching". I know the note to "reading" refers to reading out to others, but I think we can apply it to reading in a profitable sense at the present moment.

J.S.G. Paul exhorts the Galatians to "Be as I am, for I also am as ye", Galatians 4:12. But here he is exhorting Timothy in regard to himself. He says he is now to be a model. Is it a case of what is being passed on in the truth as it is in Jesus? We should all have the same attitude and the same recognition of it.

B.W.B. Yes, you love to think of Paul rejoicing in Timothy and enjoying his companion-ship. It would be the other way round too; Timothy would learn much and rejoice to be with Paul, but I think Paul found something in Timothy too, as a young man, that greatly encouraged him.

J.P. Would there be a like thought in the Old Testament in Zadok? He is introduced as "a valiant young man" (1 Chronicles 12:28) and his priesthood really superseded the Aaronic, and continued.

B.W.B. Yes, very good. He had a great place in David's realm.

F.B.F. He says, "Thou hast been thoroughly acquainted with my ... purpose" 2 Timothy 3:10. Can you say something as to that, what was to govern Timothy in a broken day?

B.W.B. Do you think it would have been obvious to Timothy that Paul's path was marked by definite purpose, purpose of heart, like the Lord's own path? There was purpose there in each step, a definite end in view.

F.B.F. Do you think it would involve the mystery that is great? "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly", Ephesians 5:32. The enemy is trying to divide the saints, the assembly, from Christ. That is what he is trying to do all the time.

B.W.B. Yes, and to belittle Paul's ministry.

G.A.C. There is a reference here to his gift, "the gift that is in thee". Has it not been said that if there was more devotedness, there would be more gift? Would that be an encouragement to the young?

B.W.B. Yes. I think that is the way it works. As we said in relation to Ruth, devotedness is a great feature with her and I think it is the way of blessing. We could all be more devoted in relation to the Lord's interests and the service of His people.

P.W.B. Paul says to Timothy, "Be wholly in them". That would be devotedness, and the note l links beautifully back to what we had yesterday as to the Lord Himself in the Father's business (Luke 2:49). Timothy was really on that line, "wholly in them".

B.W.B. I think that is most affecting, that a young man can be wholly in things in that way. It goes on to say, "That thy progress may be manifest to all". So there would not be any doubt about it. If one is wholly in them, I do not think others can fail to see it. It will work out for profit amongst the saints.

A.J.L. Do you think we need to set ourselves with purpose to go in for these things? I was thinking in regard to what is said here, "Give thyself to reading", and about what we had earlier as to the gleaning. These things need to be searched out; they are not just lying on the surface, as it were.

B.W.B. Yes, very good. First of all it is, "Occupy thyself with these things; be wholly in them", and then, "Give heed to thyself and to the teaching". It seems to suggest a watchful attitude that everything that we put our hands to might be

profitable in that way, and might contribute to spiritual increase and health and wealth.

P.H.B. You would not have much time to waste, would you?

B.W.B. No. I noticed a remark of J.T.'s that with Joseph there is no thought of his having any leisure, he was very busy ⁺. I think what you raise is important. We do not have any time to waste. Alas, we have wasted time, but we should not. The Lord's things are a full-time occupation.

P.H.B. I just pass on a conversation I had with a brother some years ago, who was sorrowing over the fact that he had wasted so much time. He was a brother who was much used amongst the saints, and I said to him, 'What do you mean by that? Because I had always considered you as committing yourself early to the Lord'. He said, 'There were certain opportunities when perhaps I missed a few minutes'. That was the line that he was taking.

B.W.B. I think that was probably a fairly exacting standard, but it is true. Even if we look back over just the past day, surely we wasted a few minutes. Time is valuable and it is to be used in the Lord's interests. As you say, it does not seem to suggest here that Timothy was to have any leisure. These things were to be his life and his occupation.

A.H.G. We have in Chronicles one who requested that God would enlarge his border, and it says, "God brought about what he had requested", 1 Chronicles 4:10. Would that be a right line, do you think?

B.W.B. I think God will be pleased to answer any request on that line. He would look, of course,

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for the moral conditions in us to justify it, but I think God would be pleased to answer a request such as that, because it will work out for the furtherance of God's interests and the testimony of the Lord, and work out for the blessing of His people.

O.W. And God gives the power to continue. In the next epistle, Paul says, "God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion", 2 Timothy 1:7. Cowardice might be something that afflicts, especially, some of the young. They need to be encouraged by what God has given.

B.W.B. In the second epistle, Timothy seemed to need a little rekindling, that he might be revived in spirit and devotion. I suppose that is a word that we are often needing.

N.E.L. It says, "Whatsoever ye do, labour at it heartily, as doing it to the Lord", Colossians 3:23. Does that help us in continuing in this? Paul would also have the attitude of being utterly spent in relation to serving the saints and the Lord (2 Corinthians 12:15).

B.W.B. I think as Timothy watched Paul, he would have realised what that meant, doing all things as to the Lord. He would have seen a man that was fully committed to the Lord's interests, His testimony and His work, and he would have been encouraged to follow that example. It is always good to see the truth expressed in another.

T.H.S. When Joseph's brethren were asked by Pharaoh, "What is your occupation?" (Genesis 46:33) that brought reproach upon them. I suppose a person that is occupied with Christ and the assembly is in a measure of reproach in

christendom, but the rejoicing side would be that our names are written in heaven.

B.W.B. Very good. These things that Timothy is to be occupied with would not impress a man of the world, or the natural man, but they are things that will promote spirituality and increase with us.

J.G.F. Is that seen in the note h to "conduct"? It is conversation, or manner of life. Do you think occupation with Christ and with His things would promote that? It brings prosperity and maturity.

B.W.B. Yes. This word 'conversation', or 'manner of life', is a word that Paul uses quite a number of times. I suppose it is important: it is not what we say, but our manner of life lies at the root of any power testimonially.

J.L. Immediately after making a later reference to Timothy when writing to saints at Philippi, Paul says, "For all seek their own things, not the things of Jesus Christ", Philippians 2:21. He rejoiced in Timothy as an example of one who was a contrast to that.

B.W.B. I think that would link with what was said just now. "All seek their own things" -- what a waste of time!

J.L. Not necessarily evil things, but "their own things, not the things of Jesus Christ".

B.W.B. I think if we are doing evil things, we know very well, and the conscience would be affected by it. We would know very well we are not acting rightly. It might not be so clear, perhaps, about our own things, things, as you say, that may well be legitimate, and yet we waste a lot of time on them.

C.E.H. Would there be some link between his progress -- "that thy progress may be manifest to

all" -- and his desire how the saints get on? One who is progressing in the Lord's things will rejoice to see how the saints are getting on. Then he has the example in Paul himself and then in the elders, "the hands of the elderhood", as though he is embracing all the saints in relation to the formation of grace in them, relating himself to it and noticing the growth of the saints.

B.W.B. We should just touch that verse in Philippians before we close. The mark of one going on would be that he is interested in others going on too. I think Paul was very much on that line, to bring the saints into what he was himself enjoying.

T.H.S. In that respect, there is a great power with the young ones for encouraging older ones. Joshua was to Moses, Ruth was to Boaz, Timothy to Paul, and young ones today; it is very practical.

B.W.B. Elisha to Elijah, he poured water on his hands (2 Kings 3:11). I think there are innumerable examples of that in Scripture. Paul here in these verses in Philippians had full confidence in Timothy. "I have no one like-minded who will care with genuine feeling how ye get on". That was a young man who was reflecting something of the degree of Paul's exercise in relation to the prosperity of the saints.

F.B.F. It is very wonderful what the Lord said: "Ye are they who have persevered with me in my temptations", Luke 22:28. He had great comfort in that.

B.W.B. Yes. He gave them credit there which we might have wondered about. They had not perhaps excelled in it, but the Lord was giving them the credit for it. That would encourage them to be a little more faithful still.

P.A.G. Do you think caring with genuine feeling how the saints get on would involve encouraging those who are doing well, as well as those who might be finding things a bit difficult? Brethren who are doing well need to be encouraged.

B.W.B. That was said years ago. If we prayed more for those going on, there would not be so many going back. We should surely pray for those going on, that they should go on better.

D.M.C. The word to Laodicea was that they were "neither cold nor hot", Revelation 3:15. Do you think those are the ones that need to be prayed for?

B.W.B. Yes, quite so.

P.W.B. Was Timothy being a shepherd too, caring with genuine feeling? Can you say more about shepherding as marking a younger one? I might expect an older brother to be a shepherd, but we have noted already in David and Joseph, and Timothy here, the thought of shepherd care in a younger one.

B.W.B. I think it is something that is highly commendable and can develop early in our spiritual histories, maybe in smaller things to start with. There are practical things that the saints need. They need encouragement too, and as has been said just now, a young one may have a greater measure of power and conviction to bring in that touch of encouragement, than an older one perhaps. It is very encouraging to see a young one fully in the truth and bringing in a word that helps and encourages others. I suppose that would be the spirit of the shepherd.

T.H.S. Practically speaking, a young shepherd would concentrate on lambs, young ones.

I think we could encourage young ones, that at that age they can be an influence for good and blessing.

B.W.B. Yes, to see a young one in that way, going on and prospering, is perhaps even more encouraging. You expect it in the older ones, but it is very encouraging when you see it in younger ones.

D.M.C. Do you think too, as was said earlier in the meetings, one of the first features needed would be love underlying any shepherd service?

B.W.B. Yes, I think so.

J.G.F. Do we see it in David? We were speaking about it in the psalm, "following the suckling-ewes" and then "he fed them according to the integrity of his heart, and led them by the skilfulness of his hands", Psalm 78:71, 72.

B.W.B. Yes, in that psalm God looked back with delight to the devotion and care that David exercised there as to the sheep as a young man. It reminds us of the Lord Jesus: "I have not lost one of them", John 18:9.

YOUTHFUL MATURITY (4)

1 John 2:13 - 17; Ephesians 4:10 - 16

B.W.B. I trust that these two scriptures, from the ministries of John and Paul, may serve to complete the subject that has been before us, and bring it to completion. Especially in Ephesians we have what is collective in view, the saints together arriving at a fulness of maturity that is very pleasing to divine Persons, and has its effect I believe too, upon the saints. But first we read these verses from John's epistle. He is a family man and he writes to these three classes -- the fathers, which no doubt would include the mothers too; the young men and young women; then the little children. There is what is present in verse 13, "I write to you ..." and then in verses 14 to 17 he refers back to "I have written" to the fathers and the young men. I think in the "have written", John is looking for results from what had been ministered. The Lord, I suppose, would be doing that, looking for results from this occasion. When the ministry comes to us, it is a question of whether it takes root in the good soil and brings forth the fulness of fruit. I thought we might be encouraged in looking at these verses afresh.

"I write to you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning". It has been linked with the fulness of the knowledge of Christ in the four gospels. It is the glory of His manhood, "him that is from the beginning". In John's gospel you have "He was in the beginning", John 1:2. That alludes to His deity. Here you have the grace of God manifest in flesh and it is really the ultimate in a father's experience, or a mother's too, that they have known that One. As we know, when he says, "I have written", it is no different: "because ye

have known him that is from the beginning". So the fathers and the mothers, I think, would be credited by John with having worked these things out and put them into practical expression.

R.G. Would it help us to see the value of the word of God, that it has an application to each stage of growth and would bring in a current word in regard of each?

B.W.B. Yes, I think so. It is "living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword", Hebrews 4:12. The word of God is the expression of the mind and the heart of God towards us. It is not only in the Scriptures, which of course are the word of God, but was expressed livingly in the One who took that title, the Word, expressed in its grace and beauty in a glorious Man. He is to be known. It is very encouraging: "ye have known him that is from the beginning".

F.B.F. Does the first verse of the epistle bear on this, the manhood of Christ and the reality of it?

B.W.B. I think so. It is the beginning of christianity in the first verse of John's epistle. "That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled", 1 John 1:1. How near to Him the disciples were, John especially. What privileges they had in companying with Jesus, seeing His every deed and action, and getting an impression of the glory of the Person that was behind it all!

F.B.F. It is a blessed Man that we have to do with, and His love is still the same and His interest in us is still the same. He is acquainted too with the conditions in which manhood exists.

B.W.B. Is that not the bearing of the gospels? They relate how God in Christ came into the very circumstances in which men were, sin apart, and met them. Where there was faith in Him, He could remove the burdens and bring in the word for the moment. He could lift hearts and souls in relation to the glory of all that God had in mind for them. In a way, it links back with the verse we began with yesterday -- His being Wonderful (Isaiah 9:6). He exceeds everything that this world can offer by far. He can fill the heart, fill the soul, fill the understanding, and fill the whole life of the believer. The fathers would spend some years perhaps in experiencing this and there would be a certain fulness in what they had arrived at.

F.B.F. Yes. Eternal life is in view here too.

B.W.B. Yes, eternal life consists in the knowledge of divine Persons (John 17:3).

J.L. Would a father be able to give more than an extended account of the history? I was thinking of the way it is presented here: "Ye have known him".

B.W.B. Yes. The history is interesting and important, but the One who wrote the history is greater than the history that has been written. I suppose we understand a good deal about Christ through the history written in the gospels, but we do need to get to the Person who is behind it all. I think, as we have said, it is His manhood that is in mind here. "Him that is from the beginning". It is not the same beginning as John 1.

J.G.F. Is it intended that there should be correspondence with us and the work of God? Earlier in the chapter it says, "which thing is true in him and in you" (verse 8).

B.W.B. That links with what we are seeking to arrive at in these meetings. We shall find it in Ephesians 4 in a fuller way perhaps. What was and is true in Christ is to be wrought out in us, and divine love is not satisfied until that is fully reached. It will not be fully reached until we have bodies of glory and when we see Him. Then "we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is", 1 John 3:2. But we should have a sense that we are on the way to it.

R.G. Do you think the Supper in one sense is like the pages of our history? We learn the Lord as we go on through our lives, we learn through our experiences, but as we come to the Supper, we bring out what we have gained, what we have acquired, and our appreciation of Him would grow.

B.W.B. Yes, Psalm 45:1 brings that out. "I say what I have composed touching the king. My tongue is the pen of a ready writer". A composition is the result of time spent in contemplation. What is written is the result of what has been seen of the One contemplated.

C.E.H. Is there a link between what the fathers know and the knowledge of the full grown man in Ephesians, referring to knowing Christ where He now is? Knowing Him from the beginning is very much akin to knowing the full grown man.

B.W.B. I think so. We have often remarked how John and Paul run along together. John complements Paul and they each reflect on the other. John puts it in a slightly different way, but it is the same Person who is being spoken about and the knowledge of "him that is from the beginning" is inexhaustible.

C.E.H. There is really nothing beyond it. I mean, the knowledge of Christ is the substance of the truth.

B.W.B. Yes. "To know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God", Ephesians 3:19. It is the way into completeness, to the full extent to which God has made Himself known.

T.H.S. Does the expression in the beginning of John, "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14), bear on this?

B.W.B. Yes, I think it does. It is an interesting word: "dwelt among us". He actually tabernacled there. He dwelt in Capernaum and J.T. said someone would have lived next door to Him, and it would have been open to them to appropriate something of the glory of the Person that was there ⁺. Whether they did, we do not know, but it was certainly open to the twelve and others who followed in the path of discipleship.

T.H.S. So we are not exactly learning a subject, but conscious of the nearness of Christ, even on an occasion like this.

B.W.B. I was thinking in relation to what was said just now about the Supper, it is the remembrance of Himself. It is the Person that is before us.

J.H.W. Does John have some thought of sonship when he uses the expression "fathers"?

B.W.B. I suppose in this setting it is more the matter of children. Fathers would be in relation to children in the truth. Sonship is a very blessed matter, and it is a greater thing still.

⁺J.T. Volume 49, pages 257-259 and Volume 96, pages 81, 82

J.H.W. They "have known him that is from the beginning". These fathers would not be short of the knowledge of God, as revealed in Christ.

B.W.B. Of course the knowledge of Christ in that way would include the knowledge of Him as Son in relation to the Father. He took that relationship up in the beginning that is spoken of here, as coming into manhood.

J.L. We have been taught that responsibilities flow from relationships. How does that apply to fathers?

B.W.B. Anyone who becomes a father certainly incurs added responsibility. It is a joy, of course. It speaks about the woman too, forgetting the sorrow "on account of the joy that a man has been born into the world", John 16:21. As you say, it would lead on to a whole responsible line, that must be filled out.

J.L. Was John writing in that way to the fathers that they might be stirred up to pass on to the children something of the wealth of experience that they had gained for themselves in the knowledge of Him?

B.W.B. Yes, I think so. I think all the writers had that in view, John certainly. Peter wrote "that after my departure ye should have also, at any time, in your power to call to mind these things", 2 Peter 1:15. Paul had a great exercise too for the continuance of the testimony after he had gone. I suppose each of those three, and others too, fulfilled their responsibility. Perhaps you could say some more about that -- the link between relation-ship and responsibility.

J.L. If a person is a father, he has a responsibility in relation to a family. If he is not a father, he does not have that. If there is a son in a

house, he has a responsibility to honour his father. These relationships each involve their own responsibility. I was thinking of the setting here, that the fathers would feel their responsibilities to take an interest in the children. So in the light of this subject that has been before us they would be able in some way to contribute towards the growth of the children, in view of their arriving at that.

B.W.B. Yes. I think that is a great help. Do you think the book of Proverbs would bring that in and strengthen that idea? There is a whole book about wisdom, much of it dedicated to the younger ones, that they might learn from the father.

J.L. Yes, very good.

F.B.F. Do you think we should always have in view in our localities the cultivation of a family spirit, so that whatever growth is there in those who are younger, there is something attractive? Of course those of us who are older have to manifest it ourselves, and take an interest in one another.

B.W.B. Yes. I think John is particularly on that line. The blending of the three together here would show that. They are not meant to be separate units exactly. They are addressed by John, in one sense, all together. There is a word for each, but it is all in this one section. John would hold the fathers, and the young men, and the little children all together in his affections, and these persons make up a local assembly.

F.B.F. The family thought with God is very great. It is eternal.

B.W.B. Yes. It began early in Genesis, especially with Abraham and Isaac. The thought of the father and the son comes in there distinctively.

P.A.G. I was wondering if Genesis was an important book for those who "have known him

that is from the beginning", because God, through-out Genesis, acts through families. The law does not come in until later, but in setting out the pattern of how things were to operate, God showed Himself through family relationships and how they were to be ordered.

B.W.B. I think so. There is a book, 'Generations in the Book of Genesis'. ⁺ God's great family thought was worked out there before the law ever came in, before He sovereignly took up Israel either. I suppose, in a way, Genesis links with God's eternal thought and His eternal end, to dwell family-wise with men. "He shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God", Revelation 21:3.

R.G. Does God return to the thought of generations in Matthew? It is the "Book of the generation of Jesus Christ", Matthew 1:1. That is found in the assembly gospel.

B.W.B. Yes. It stresses the royal line on which Christ came, and the wealth of the forty-two generations leading to His birth.

F.B.F. There will be a variety of praise eternally to God. Each family is distinct. The divine workmanship is going to result in that; there will be freshness and variety.

B.W.B. Yes, the assembly having the greatest place. That is the family that we have here in these verses.

F.B.F. And it is when everything had gone to pieces outwardly that John wrote.

B.W.B. The enemy has been very successful in attacking and destroying family life amongst the people of the world at the present moment. It is sad

⁺J.T. Volume 42, pages 372-537

that the enemy should ever succeed in this amongst the saints.

D.M.C. Paul did not have any children of his own, but he could say to Philemon, "I exhort thee for my child, whom I have begotten in my bonds, Onesimus" (verse 10). He had that link.

B.W.B. Paul exercised both fatherhood and motherhood, although he was not either literally, in a physical sense, but spiritually he exercised those two relationships for blessing.

P.J.S.McM. Why do you think that the know-ledge of the Father is the portion of the little children, not the fathers exactly?

B.W.B. It is very precious. "I write to you, little children, because ye have known the Father". We might have questioned that, or at least might find it a little difficult to understand, but I think it links with what has been said about the family relationships into which God has been pleased to come and to introduce His people into. The little children would have a sense of the Father's care. Jesus opened it up in Matthew 5, 6 and 7. Is that how younger ones would begin to learn the Father and His provision for them in the practical matters of life?

C.E.H. Is the link between all these categories of growth in the family covered in the first section? "I write to you, children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (verse 12). Is that not beautiful? That is the link we have with all the saints.

B.W.B. Yes. As we know, that verse applies to us all. It is not 'little children' there; it is "I write to you, children". It is the children of the Father, which includes all the saints. "Because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake". It puts every

one on the same plane and brings them into the same sense of the shining of divine favour.

C.E.H. Paul wrote to Titus and referred to "the faith common to us", Titus 1:4. He did not take superior ground to Titus. There was a maturity there in him that was not in Titus, but his common ground is the same faith. Does that link with the knowledge of the Father too?

B.W.B. We know that the price of redemption was the same for all -- half a shekel of the sanctuary. There was no difference. We all come in on that basis. Our sins have been forgiven for His name's sake.

J.G.F. Is this word "overcome" important? It is not that it happens once; it is a continuing state. Would that be necessary in view of growth taking place?

B.W.B. That phrase as to the young men has a distinct link with Joshua, whom we were speaking about earlier. He overcame the wicked one in the light of the power from on high. It was to be written in a book and rehearsed so that Joshua should remember it, and it should be a continuing thing that he should be in victory over the flesh. It is easily said, but not so easily carried out in a practical way. But the Lord would calculate that He has given young men -- and it would be young women too by extension -- the power, and the power is in the Spirit to overcome the wicked one.

D.C. Would the putting off the things of a child in 1 Corinthians 13:11 and putting on the full panoply of God in Ephesians 6, help us in that overcoming?

B.W.B. I think that is very interesting. There is a transition there from the child to the young man or the young woman. As we have said earlier,

there is a growing sense of maturity and the Lord would help such to be in victory over what the wicked one might put before any one of us.

R.G. Is it important in our histories to come to this point? We often speak of Satan as a defeated foe, and that is true, but we have to prove experimentally in the power of the Spirit that we can overcome, and that is an important point in our histories.

B.W.B. Yes, Peter recognises that the enemy has a certain amount of scope. "Your adversary the devil as a roaring lion walks about seeking whom he may devour", 1 Peter 5:8. We should not underestimate the power of the enemy, as has often been said. He has been defeated at the cross by Christ Himself, but he is not finally bound until the beginning of the millennial reign.

P.W.B. This would involve the learning of dependence. We might, as young men, rely on natural strength, but that will never overcome the wicked one. If we have overcome, it is because we have learnt dependence as David did when he met Goliath.

B.W.B. Yes. I think that is a very interesting illustration. "I come to thee in the name of Jehovah of hosts", he could say (1 Samuel 17:45). He is relying on the God whom he had learned in his shepherding and who had saved him from the lion and bear, and I think that same power is available to every young one. This measure of development in a young man or young woman, would suppose that they had begun to understand that.

J.L. It is also linked in verse 14 very closely with the word of God abiding in us.

B.W.B. Yes. "I have written to you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God

abides in you". It is an interesting suggestion. It does not say only that they had read the word of God, but it had found a lodging place in their hearts and minds.

J.L. If we are not formed in the truth, there is a weakness there that gives an opening to the enemy. If the word of God is abiding in us, that is a great wall of protection to help to overcome the wicked one.

B.W.B. It is. When the Lord Jesus was led into the desert, tempted of the devil, you could say that the word of God in its fulness was abiding in Him, so that He met each of those three thrusts with the word of God. In every step too, He was clinging to the will of God. Those two things will preserve us from the work of the enemy.

T.H.S. So the spirit of dependence makes way for the word of God abiding in us. We come in the spirit of inquiry into the temple; this meeting is no Bible study.

B.W.B. No, quite so. The word of God, as we have already said, is a living thing and we need to make way for it that it might abide in us. There is no mixture with the young men if they are on this line. The word of God is dismissive of all else.

T.H.S. "Every word of God is pure", Proverbs 30:5. If it is abiding in us, it must have a residence.

B.W.B. Yes. I think this is an interesting thought to contemplate -- "the word of God abides in you". The consequence is, "and ye have overcome the wicked one". They have not lost any ground from verse 13.

C.E.H. You would encourage the young ones to read the Scriptures every day. The Lord in the temptations said, 'It is written ...' three times

(Matthew 4:4, 7, 10). Reference to what is written is the result of the word of God abiding in us.

B.W.B. Yes. Let us read the Scriptures, and ponder over them, let the Spirit use them. I think that is how they become formative and they do in fact abide in us. So they become part of us.

C.E.H. "Have ye never read ... ?" the Lord asked them once (Matthew 21:42). He as much as suggested it is a basic matter.

B.W.B. Of course they would have read the Scriptures in a mental way. They could probably have recited large parts of them by heart, but when He says, "Have ye never read?" I suppose it means that what they had read had not really become part of them, it had not been formed in them. He says in Luke 9:44, "Do ye let these words sink into your ears". It is not just a perfunctory reading; the thing has to be taken on substantially.

J.G.F. Is that what the psalmist had in mind when he said, "Thy word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against thee" (Psalm 119:11)?

B.W.B. Yes, that helps. I suppose many scriptures come to mind too in relation to it. The Spirit of God, I think, would be very much on that line at the present moment, that the vast wealth that is in the Scriptures should really become part of our thinking and engage our affections too.

C.E.H. Would the normal effect of reading the Scripture be to lead you into the presence of God? Would that not be a good custom to read the Scriptures and pray together, both in our house-holds and assemblywise?

B.W.B. You may remember there was a little piece in the young people's magazine some time back, where a little girl bought a copy of the Bible for her father, who claimed to be an atheist. She

had it inscribed in the frontispiece, 'From the Author'. It affected the soul of that man and converted him, that God, the Author of this book, was actually speaking to him.

N.E.L. The Lord had to say, "Ye search the scriptures ... and ye will not come to me that ye might have life", John 5:39, 40. We need to go to the Lord with what we read to find true profit.

B.W.B. Yes, it is not just the outward reading of the Scriptures. If they had really fastened their affections on Him, they would have recognised Christ and come to Him as the One who was the theme of the Scriptures. We need to read the Scriptures from that viewpoint, that Christ is in them, and then we will find Him in them.

J.H.W. And if we read the Scriptures, we need to have communion with divine Persons at the same time. We cannot understand the word of God unless the Holy Spirit explains it to us.

B.W.B. Absolutely. The Ethiopian eunuch was reading the Scriptures, and Philip challenged him, "Dost thou then know what thou art reading of? And he said, How should I then be able unless some one guide me?" Acts 8:30, 31. We have the advantage now that the Spirit has come to guide us.

J.H.W. He is a wonderful, valuable possess-ion, the Holy Spirit, in our souls.

R.D.P. The first attack of the wicked one was against the word of God. "Is it even so, that God has said?" Genesis 3:1. It is a great triumph that God now has persons who have overcome the enemy and the word of God abides in them.

B.W.B. Yes. If Eve had simply clung to what God had said, she would have been preserved. Then too, she should have referred to Adam, because God's word was directly to Adam.

J.L. She would have had on "the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is God's word", Ephesians 6:17.

B.W.B. Yes. That is direct divine provision for us in meeting the enemy.

F.B.F. Do you think we need to get the scope of the scripture too? It gives us a better understanding of whatever we may be reading, an outline, which Paul speaks of to Timothy.

B.W.B. Yes. "Have an outline of sound words", 2 Timothy 1:13. That is where ministry that has been given helps in many respects. It gives us the scope of divine thoughts. It may be in relation to a whole book at times, or whole chapters and so on. It is helpful to follow up what some of these men of God have opened up.

F.B.F. Yes, and you might greatly appreciate one particular verse, but what is the connection, or setting? If you get the whole setting, there is far more in it, probably, than you may think.

B.W.B. Yes, I think that is right. It is always important to have the truth in balance. Mr. Stoney has an interesting article on 'The Scope of the Truth'. ⁺ You will never understand the truth by trying to get one facet and then another. You must have an overview of the scope of the truth to see how each element fits in.

J.G.F. Does the love of the Father help in that way? That would wean us away from the things of the world. It is not only the world, but the things of the world.

B.W.B. Yes. I think these verses that follow are challenging. "Ye have overcome the wicked one". Then there is an authoritative word: "Love

⁺J.B.S. Volume 3, page 239.

not the world, nor the things in the world". We may not love the world, but we may have a hidden longing after the things in the world. It is not necessarily blatantly evil things, either.

D.M.C. The context of these verses is seen in the beginning: "These things write we to you that your joy may be full", 1 John 1:4. Is that the divine intent?

B.W.B. Yes, I am sure it is.

T.H.S. Is the word "in him" significant? "The love of the Father is not in him". What we have been saying as to reading is encouraging and right, but the great thing is to make it good in yourself. I know my sins are forgiven because I have read it, but I know it inwardly too, and the joy of it is by the Spirit.

B.W.B. Paul could say, "I know whom I have believed", 2 Timothy 1:12. It is good to make things personal in that way and to centre them in the Person. There are many blessings we have in Christ, but it is greater to know the Blesser.

R.G. Mr. Gardiner has connected the things in the world with Jericho ⁺. It was not in the world, it was in the land, but it stood athwart their entering into the land and getting the good of it. Do we have to see that these "things in the world" may be simple in themselves, but they are part of a very well-organised system that has to come down, in the affections of the saints?

B.W.B. We should remember Rahab. She had the light of it. She lived in Jericho but it was not her life. She had the light of another people and of God in relation to them. Through faith she found

⁺A.J.G. The Substantiality of Christianity, pages 58, 59.

her part in relation to the people of God and found her part in the genealogy too in Matthew 1.

R.G. That is remarkable. Ruth has been mentioned earlier, and now Rahab. Both persons had major defects and yet they have the most privileged place in things.

B.W.B. It is the way we have all been taken up. We had no claim on the blessing and we certainly all had defects (I suppose we must speak for ourselves, each one of us) but God has overcome that. Those are the kind of persons He has taken up in His sovereign ways in blessing.

F.B.F. If you are not to love the things of the world, you have to love something else. Now that must be Christ Himself.

B.W.B. Oh yes. I think it is rather the thought that the glory of Christ attracts you away from everything else.

'Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
Look full in His wonderful face;
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim
In the light of His glory and grace'. (Hymn by H. H. Lemmel)

C.E.H. The oracle in Solomon's temple was where the ark was, that sets out the presence of Christ in the total outshining of the knowledge of God. It is the place where God speaks. Is that not affecting? So we realise that it is all calculated to increase our knowledge of Christ as the One in whom the fulness of the Godhead dwells.

B.W.B. I think that leads too to the responsive line, because "in his temple doth every one say, Glory!" Psalm 29:9. I think as you appreciate the

dwelling conditions of God Himself it is calculated to move the soul in response.

J.H.H. "If any one love the world, the love of the Father is not in him". Could you say something about those two things?

B.W.B. Love of the world in a believer suggests that everything is out of perspective. If we love the world, we have not really been captivated by the love of the Father expressed in Christ.

J.H.H. Someone may say they love the Lord, but they go on with the world. Is the love of the Father a deeper thought?

B.W.B. I think we have been taught to see that the Father is over against the world, and Christ is over against the enemy. Christ is the centre of another world, which is the Father's delight, and the Father would have us to find our part in relation to that world and the resurrection.

M.R.C. You referred earlier to Rahab. Does she afford a practical example for us, as one who closed her door on the world, but had in her window an outlet to what was outside of Jericho?

B.W.B. I think that is very helpful. She bound a scarlet thread there too, the light of redemption. Her outlook was in relation to another world altogether.

O.W. We might have thought that it was sufficient to say, "Ye have overcome the wicked one". We might have thought that that would be fairly final. Why then does he go on to speak of the world and the things in the world?

B.W.B. I wondered if overcoming the wicked one relates to a definite thrust of the enemy himself. He is behind the world, of course, but the loving of the world is perhaps a more insidious thing, or one more difficult to detect, and needs to

be exposed to us, because "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" are things that men and women around us are going in for. Some of them are not exactly wicked things.

O.W. Both things are perfectly set out in Christ. He overcame Satan, but then later on He says, "Be of good courage: I have overcome the world", John 16:33.

B.W.B. And He was marked by a spirit of wonderful humility and meekness, the very opposite spirit to that which would advance persons in this world.

A.D.M. I was thinking of 2 Corinthians 6. The Father is known particularly to those who are moving on the line of separation. "I will be to you for a Father, and ye shall be to me for sons and daughters", 2 Corinthians 6:18.

B.W.B. Yes. "Come out from the midst of them, and be separated" (verse 17). The Father appreciates that. It is the moral footsteps that He is looking for. He found it completely in Jesus, entirely apart from this world, but He is looking now for His people to be on that line too. I think that is a helpful reference.

A.D.M. It mentions touching, which is some-thing which we probably need to pay attention to.

B.W.B. Yes. "Touch not what is unclean" (verse 17). The contamination is even in the touch, not in going in for the thing thoroughly maybe, or getting into the depths of it, but even just touching it.

R.V.G. Paul says, "But we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God, that we may know the things which have been freely given to us of God", 1 Corinthians 2:12. There we have things that can engage us and occupy us over against the glory of this world.

B.W.B. The things "which God has prepared for them that love him", 1 Corinthians 2:9. That would help to draw us away from this world. The things God has prepared transcend by far anything this world can offer.

We ought to go on to Ephesians because it is the topstone of what has been before us. These verses in Ephesians 4 bring out the fulness of maturity and the completion of God's work in relation to the saints, and it is collective here. What we have been speaking about mainly are individual examples, and they are good to follow, but it is a great thing now to see these things working out amongst the saints. Christ has taken this position on high and from that position, filling all things, He has given these gifts. Not that I thought to speak in detail about them, but we are thankful for the principle of gift that still remains. Not that it is official in these days, but the work is going on, and what a work it is! "With a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ". It gives us a heavenly light on what the Lord, particularly, is seeking to do at the present moment amongst us.

J.G.F. Would it bear on what Paul says at Ephesus? "I have not shrunk from announcing to you all the counsel of God", Acts 20:27.

B.W.B. Yes. Paul had set the whole thing out himself, but he is looking for expansion here in others. It is the principle of the whole matter of gift in any measure that it is available to serve the saints. This is the objective that is in view.

J.G.F. "The knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man". These are mature thoughts.

B.W.B. They are, and they are attractive thoughts. The full-grown man has power, he has developed affections too.

J.G.F. His faculties are fully developed.

B.W.B. Yes, I think so.

T.H.S. It connects especially with Christ where He is. J.N.D. said, 'Now He was not made perfect down here, but in being glorified in heaven ... He had not reached that point in the counsels of God in glory, when He was down here. Now He is there He has associated me with Himself in that place' ⁺. That is, we shall be like Him as He is, where He is.

B.W.B. I would understand that to mean that a glorified Christ embraces the completeness of all God's thoughts related to man. We should be absolutely clear that it does not mean that there was any element whatever of imperfection in Christ when here on earth. Speaking carefully, the gospel of the glory, Paul's gospel, which flows from an ascended Christ, is greater than the gospel that the Lord Himself preached here, the gospel of the kingdom.

T.H.S. J.B.S. is fully with you.

B.W.B. Yes, I know ⁺⁺.

F.B.F. He "has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things". That is outside the created sphere altogether. That is a very high position. We speak of Christ glorified, but this is "above all the heavens". We do not know how many there are.

B.W.B. It is good to hold in our minds and affections that Christ has that greatness. He has

⁺J.N.D. Collected Writings, Volume 28, page 61

⁺⁺J.B.S. Volume 7, pages 253-275

also given these gifts, and He is to be known by us in that position insofar as we can reach to it.

F.B.F. So there would be a heavenly touch in the ministry.

B.W.B. Yes, surely.

J.L. Is it good to remember that this is all for the present time? No doubt the results have eternity in view, but the gifts and the growth belong to now, do they?

B.W.B. That is important, and that is what we are at in these meetings. It is the present moment, and whatever time may be left to us before the Lord comes, that is in mind. We know when He comes everything will be absolutely completed, and God's thoughts in their maturity will be reached, but now we are going on to full-growth.

J.G.F. Does that come out in the four gospels? I am thinking of the extent of what is set out in the four gospels, complete perfection.

B.W.B. Yes. We cannot comprehend it, of course. It is beyond our comprehension, but there is a sense of what is added in the glory of His present position and the heavenly side of the truth. The assembly is a vessel, heavenly in origin and in destiny, as we have been taught.

C.E.H. We have to think of this scripture in the light of what he had said in chapter 1, that the assembly is "the fulness of him who fills all in all" (verse 23). He has "ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things". There is a link there. The coming to light of the assembly as His fulness involves His present service throughout this whole dispensation in relation to what is in this chapter.

B.W.B. Yes. That is a very precious reference. It is in Christ as Man there, of course, that the assembly is His fulness. You could not connect

that with His deity; it is what He is as Man. It is given to Him to be "head over all things to the assembly", Ephesians 1:22. It is His glory as Man, and the assembly is fully able and capable of answering to Him in every respect in the blessedness of His manhood.

C.E.H. This chapter involves His manhood too, His sonship. He is not taken to heaven as the Son of man, as in chapter 1; it is the Son of God here. It is His position in manhood because He "received gifts in Man", Psalm 68:18. It has in mind the filling out of those features of manhood in the saints, extending through the whole dispensation. These verses have the climax in view, the result of all the work right through from the apostles down to the present time.

B.W.B. Yes. What is in view here is that those conditions should be reached in the saints, that they might go on to full growth, "grow up to him in all things, who is the head".

R.G. In verse 9 it says, "But that he ascended", and then immediately it says, "he also descended". Does it bring out the fact that all the line of suffering that was involved in His own pathway here has yielded fruit for God that could not otherwise have been secured? I am thinking of the experiences too of the saints. We come to the Supper and the service of God and we are not talking about our sufferings or shortcomings, but there is a line of suffering and experience underlying what goes on in the service of God.

B.W.B. Yes, I think that is helpful. There is nothing really formed apart from suffering and experience. The glory follows the sufferings. It is the suffering first, followed by the glory.

T.H.S. Would you say something as to "the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ"? There is a dignity about the very expression.

B.W.B. I think that expression sums up the subject that has been before us. It is full maturity, "the measure of the stature". What standing Christ has! He stands above all others.

T.H.S. Is the measure connected with what you have been touching as to His manhood? We cannot attach measure exactly to deity. But the stature, that is His present condition. Then "the fulness of the Christ".

B.W.B. I think He is clearly viewed here as Man and the saints growing up to Him, which is a very attractive idea.

J.H.H. Does this help to bring in stability to the saints? "In order that we may be no longer babes". God wants us to arrive at these thoughts of maturity that you have been speaking of.

B.W.B. I think so. So it goes on to speak about being no longer tossed about. "The measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ" would bring in the rock-like character that belongs to Christ Himself. He is immovable.

F.B.F. Do you think we do not go high enough, and we do not go low enough in our experience? We reach out to the greatest thoughts of God and we seek the Spirit's help as to the inheritance, but then there is the other side, the moral side. There is the need of appreciation of the depths to which Christ went and His holy sufferings.

B.W.B. Yes. So it is good to read the book of Jonah, chapter 2. The man who built his house upon the rock "dug and went deep", Luke 6:48. It

is a matter of soul experience, and I think the going down deep comes first, before you go up.

F.B.F. Yes. Because there is a great deal in this "measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ". He went beyond anything, of course, that we could, but we should have an appreciation of the depths to which Christ went, and the height to which He has gone.

B.W.B. Do you think it is part of the impress-ion that must have been conveyed to Paul when he was caught up to the third heaven? "Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?" 1 Corinthians 9:1. He was forbid-den to speak of it in detail, but what he is saying here would flow out of that, that he had seen something of "the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ", and he is skilfully working here to bring the saints towards that objective.

J.L. Is it in view of the full expression of Christ in the body?

B.W.B. Yes. It goes on to the body: "from whom the whole body, fitted together, and connected by every joint of supply". It is to be, reverently speaking, a working model.

J.L. Yes. I was thinking that all that is to be seen in Christ in glory as Head has to find its answer in the full expression of Christ in the body.

B.W.B. Yes, I think so. What a privilege then to have part in it! I thought that should come down into the localities of the saints. I suppose what you have here is a universal view of the whole assembly, but it is worked out practically in our localities.

C.E.H. The Spirit would give us some impression as to what is in His mind in this expression as to the stature, "the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ". Would the

Song of Songs help in any way? "His bearing as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars", Song of Songs 5:15. It is the dignity of the way the Lord is moving in the heavenly realm that would affect us and give us character, so that we develop some measure of heavenly character.

B.W.B. I think that word, "His bearing as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars" would illustrate this matter of His stature. I think it is very attractive. We look up to Christ, and I think the stature would involve that too. He stands there in His magnificence and He is an impregnable rock.

C.E.H. We do not only have status in Christ, but the assembly has to have character like Him. "Such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones", 1 Corinthians 15:48.

B.W.B. I think that comes out in the Song of Songs a good deal. There is a mutual appreciation. His appreciation of her -- how full it is! But then you have her appreciation of Him too, and there is a blending of the two.

R.V.G. It also says of the spouse in the Song of Songs, "This thy stature is like to a palm-tree", Song of Songs 7:7. That is something that could be taken account of, that has been arrived at.

B.W.B. That is helpful. I think if you put the cedars and the palm trees together you get some impression of the beauties and varieties that are welded into the Person of Christ, and reflected in the assembly.

G.A.C. Paul says, "Until we all arrive". Could you help us as to that expression?

B.W.B. I think it would be true to say at the present moment that we are arriving. I think that is what is in the Spirit's mind. "The Spirit and the bride say, Come", Revelation 22:17. The Spirit would

keep the saints alert and affectionate in relation to arriving at this. "Until we all arrive". It is finality that is in view there.

G.A.C. I think that helps. So we need to keep the divine objective before us.

B.W.B. I think we will not literally arrive until we have bodies of glory like unto His own. But we are nearly there!

P.H.B. Would the operation of gift be in view of a collective answer to Christ? Is that the ultimate objective?

B.W.B. I think so. It would be the exercise of all the saints, but those who have a measure of gift, perhaps, should be exercised to help that forward and give a lead in relation to it. Paul is giving a wonderful lead here in this chapter.

J.G.F. We should be concerned to be a joint of supply so that it becomes, as you say, a working model, something that is actually seen working and operating.

B.W.B. Yes, very good. A joint of supply is a simple service, in one sense, and yet without it things would break down in the body. You also have the idea of helps (1 Corinthians 12:28), which would be a similar idea.

R.G. Could you say something about the reference to Christ in verse 15? "We may grow up to him in all things, who is the head, the Christ". What would you say about His headship in that connection?

B.W.B. "Who is the head, the Christ". It is His official position, the Christ, the One who is anointed of God to fill this place, and He is Head of the assembly. It is not quite the view we were referring to in chapter 1, "head over all things to the assembly" (verse 22). That is His universal

headship, but Head of the assembly is a precious link that the assembly would fully appreciate and make use of, reverently speaking.

J.L. At that point does not gift somewhat recede, so that the ultimate edification comes through the self-building up of the body in love as drawing directly from the Head?

B.W.B. Yes. I think that is interesting. When we are translated into these circumstances actually, there will be no longer any need for gift. It is not in evidence at the Supper either.

J.L. No. I think that is very good. Christ has place in prominence there as Head.

B.W.B. Yes. I think that is a side we need to remember and practically work out. His headship at the Supper directs everything.

R.G. Does the expression "the Christ", as you have said, being His official title, suggest that everything that God had in view in the anointed Man is now appreciated by the saints? He is known fully, and hence the need for gift recedes.

B.W.B. Yes. The saints are thus endowed with the grace that is needed to answer to these divine thoughts. That is the full end that is in view, that God's thoughts for us should be fully answered to.

T.H.S. Has it not been said that gift is like the scaffolding? It is no longer needed in the completed building.

B.W.B. Yes, very good. It is better to see the completed building than the scaffolding around it.

T.H.S. It is better to see what God is doing; His building is all right. Paul was a wise architect.

B.W.B. We cannot say much about gift anyway at the present moment. Paul says to Timothy, "Do the work of an evangelist", 2 Timothy 4:5. It is not 'Be an evangelist'.

T.H.S. I agree with that, but the other side is -- I think you touched on it earlier -- there would be more gift if there was more committal. That is a side we can be exercised in.

B.W.B. Gift is not given to exalt the person who has it; it is given for the blessing of the saints and the furtherance of leading us into the truth.

T.H.S. I am sure that is borne out in this very scripture.

R.D.P. Is it encouraging that every feature of maturity that has been secured in every saint is contributing to what is existing here in the assembly, as the body of Christ, or the bride for Christ?

B.W.B. Yes. We come into things initially individually, and a great deal of divine workman-ship has been wrought in individuals, but it has in mind our finding our place in the body and it is all working here "to its self-building up in love".

R.D.P. So it does not promote anything in myself, but what is for Christ.

B.W.B. Only that I should fulfil the function that is allotted to me.

C.E.H. His headship involves that the initiative in everything in this realm must come from Him.

B.W.B. Yes, quite so. God is the source of all and through Christ that is worked out in relation to the assembly.

C.E.H. He has an active interest in every one of the saints of the assembly and the initiative would come from Him if we wait on Him.

B.W.B. Yes.

P.A.G. What would you say about growing up to Him in all things?

B.W.B. It is a fully rounded thought. It is not 'in some things' or 'partially', but it is growing up to this wonderful Model in all things. It does not seem to suggest that there is any side on which there is going to be any lack. I think it has some link with what we said just now about the scope of the truth. We are not neglecting any part of it. But perhaps you have some thought too.

P.A.G. Would it link with what is set out objectively earlier, "the full-grown man"? Growing up to Him in all things means that there would be perfect proportion. We said earlier in these meetings that when the Lord was here nothing was predominant, and so it would be as we grow up to Him in all things. There is proportion and balance about the way we conduct ourselves.

B.W.B. Does it not come out in the heavenly city in Revelation 21? There is perfect balance there. It lies four-square, and there are many other things about it too. It is a fully completed vessel of divine glory and the expression of the light of Christ in the millennial world.

J.L. You would have a deformed body otherwise, and that could never be as the divine answer to the glory of Christ as Head.

B.W.B. And it is a wonderful privilege to be living in the days when the finishing touches, perhaps, are being put to it.

O.W. Is love the power by which we arrive at these things?

B.W.B. Yes. "Its self-building up in love".

O.W. Yes, and "holding the truth in love".

B.W.B. Yes. That is important. It is good to hold the truth, but to hold it in love means that we are holding the truth in relation to the One who is

the source of it, because God is love. How love has been expressed in Christ!

O.W. It is often said that love is our measure. Is that the way we can measure our maturity, do you think?

B.W.B. Yes. "The measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ" that we were speaking about would suggest that there is an appreciation of His love above all.

M.P.W. Is this what we are moving towards as we come to the truth of Romans 5? In Romans 5 we have the first order of man, and I suppose we have been growing up to him in a way in the flesh, but is the arriving at things in Ephesians 4, the fulness of what God has for us in Christ, growing up to Him?

B.W.B. I think so. So each one has their own impression of Christ, and it is being formed in the heart and soul of the believer, and then each finds that they fit together in the body and it facilitates the self-building up in love.

F.B.F. It has been said that the "all things" is the universe. We need the Spirit's help to understand it. I believe very often at the end of the morning meeting we reach a point beyond which we cannot go, but we know there is something further. Do you ever have a sense of that?

B.W.B. Yes, quite so. It is "to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus", Ephesians 3:21. You cannot put a limit to that. It is just a question of how far we can practically enter into the enjoyment of it.

R.G. Do you think the reference to the river in Ezekiel would help us as to that? It speaks of "a river that could not be passed through", Ezekiel 47:5. Ezekiel was in that river and he could swim in it,

but he was told there was something there that was beyond him. It is intended to bring about worship in our hearts.

B.W.B. It is good to get into the waters to swim in and to be moved to worship. Then, as you say, there is something beyond that, that is beyond creature understanding and experience. That is where we need the service of the Mediator.

"MY SERVANT"

Isaiah 42:1 - 4; Numbers 12:4 - 8; Numbers 14:24; 1 Chronicles 17:7, 8, 11 - 13; 1 Chronicles 29:10 - 13

You will notice, dear brethren, that these scriptures we have read refer to the Lord Jesus and to three other men, whom God identifies by these two words, "my servant". I think it was a peculiar delight to God to speak of persons in that way, to own them as His servants. I noticed, in looking into this a little, that there are at least twelve men in the Old Testament who are so identified, but there is no one in the New so spoken of. I gather from that, that the Lord Jesus having come and filled out this place distinctively as "my servant" in God's sight, no one comes after Him. He is "the Amen, the faithful and true witness", Revelation 3:14. What a Servant He is, and was, for the divine delight! I think it should touch our hearts. I bring this subject forward because I believe that as we arrive at the thought of maturity that has been before us in these meetings, it will make way for a path of service, and that path is surely open to us. I do not suggest for a moment that men like Paul, John, Stephen, and others in the New Testament were not God's servants. Of course they were, but they are not actually so identified.

I begin with the Lord Jesus Himself in Isaiah 42. The scripture is also quoted in Matthew 12:18 - 21, that the scripture might be fulfilled. The scripture was fulfilled eight hundred years later, when Jesus was actually here in flesh and blood. What a Servant! How He filled out this scripture in

wonderful detail and beauty! But here in Isaiah 42 we have God's own words. How attractive! You think of God calling attention in this way to this blessed One that would come: "Behold my servant". Take a good look at this blessed One, dear brethren; He is worthy of our contemplation, He is worth every moment of time that we spend upon Him. There are varied glories -- we have been tracing them already in these meetings -- that we can take account of, and God would help us to look at this glorious Man. He has been, and is, for the delight of the divine heart, the divine mind, and God would draw us to Him. What an invitation, dear brethren! "Behold my servant". Let us take a look at this glorious One, see Him as God saw Him, at least in some measure.

God opens up here something of His own thoughts in relation to His holy Servant Jesus, "my servant whom I uphold, mine elect in whom my soul delighteth!" Think of divine power being with Christ. He came with divine power entrusted to Him. "All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth", He could say in resurrection (Matthew 28:18). "Whom I uphold, mine elect". How God chose Him above all others! It is wonderful to see the grace and beauty of Jesus in the divine mind, in the divine eye. Think of God's eye resting upon Christ in perfect complacency, every moment of His pathway here. We have spoken of God's eye being upon the believer, and that is blessedly true too, but God's eye was perfectly and fully on Christ every moment of His life. It called forth divine delight, approval and satisfaction. What a blessed Man, dear brethren, for the affections of

each one! There is One in whom God delighted. How far do we delight in the grace and glory of this blessed Man? "In whom my soul delighteth!" God's own feelings are taken up in this way with this blessed One, His whole soul and affections concentrated on this blessed One who would come into manhood as His Servant. Oh, what a Servant He was! In Mark's gospel we see it particularly portrayed in beauty. "He does all things well" (Mark 7:37) and there are many other touches, and in the other gospels too. God's Servant was here acting on God's behalf, bringing in God's mind, bringing in the line of divine supply and blessing, and God's eye was upon it all. How interested, we may say, speaking reverently, God was in the pathway of Jesus, in the detail of every day, especially those days of public service. How much entered into them! Luke says, "It came to pass on one of the days", Luke 20:1. He gives us touches as to certain of those days, but there were far more days than that in the three and half years of the public service of Jesus, and every one of them, dear brethren, afforded untold delight to the heart of God.

The Lord Jesus occupied His time, I believe, perfectly. We were speaking in the last reading about not wasting time. Reverently, we may say the Lord Jesus never wasted one moment. Not that He was in a hurry, exactly; time was, I believe, allotted that all that He was given of the Father to do would be done perfectly, and in the fulness of divine grace. He says, "Are there not twelve hours in the day?" John 11:9. I believe the Lord employed every moment of those twelve hours

faithfully and completely in His Father's business, God's eye being upon Him.

"I will put my Spirit upon him". That was worked out, as we were saying in an earlier reading, at His baptism, the Spirit descending as a dove in bodily form upon this blessed Man, giving fulness and character to the Lord's subsequent ministry. How great it was, God manifest in flesh and the Spirit coming upon Him in the grace of the anointing for every precious act of the Lord Jesus Christ here. These verses go on, no doubt, to refer to what is yet to come, what is millennial. There is a blending, I believe, in these few verses, of His first coming and also of the fact that He is coming again to take up His rights. It says, "He shall bring forth judgment to the nations". It says that God "has set a day in which he is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by the man whom he has appointed", Acts 17:31. God has appointed a Man, one blessed Man, One above all others, our Lord Jesus Christ. "He shall bring forth judgment to the nations". What a day that is going to be, when this blessed Man, who served here in humility and lowly grace, in a large measure in obscurity from the eyes of men, not seen by the world and all that it was going on with, but seen by the eye of God, and appreciated too in faith by many who were drawn to Him as He moved about in blessing, will come again. He will bring forth judgment to the nations and rule in equity. "Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment", Isaiah 32:1. He will have those who are morally like Him to share in this day when He brings forth judgment to the

nations, and what blessing, dear brethren, it will bring! God has decreed that it will be so; He has put everything into the hands of one Man. "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand", John 3:35. This is the One we are engaged with here in these verses, and God would engage you with Him at this moment.

"Behold my servant". There is enough in Christ to fill the heart of each one of us for time and for eternity. It is inexhaustible. God is delighted with Him. How delighted are you, dear brother, dear sister, you children? Is He the delight of your heart? If He is the delight of God's heart, He should be the delight of yours and mine too. What God values and appreciates, He would draw you, as you have faith in Him, to come to know, at least in some measure. God would draw you into the secrets of His love and the blessedness of all that Christ is in His sight. It goes on to say, "He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench". What grace shone in the service of Jesus! There were persons that came to Him in extreme need and He touched them in lowly grace, and He healed them in the beauty and the power of His love, not bruising any reed or quenching any smoking flax. "He shall bring forth judgment according to truth". How blessed to have a link with the Man who is going to bring forth judgment in equity, a judgment according to God, a judgment that will be for the blessing of the millennial earth. I suppose Christ exercised judgment here too in relation to all that was around Him. He exposed the sin and the

wilfulness of man, and those who came to Him in faith found the gain of getting clear of it. He showed them in the glory of His own Person and the blessedness of His own work, what true judgment was. He said at one point, "Judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24) and He showed them, I believe, how that was to be arrived at.

"He shall not faint nor be in haste, till he have set justice in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law". How extensive this is! It looks far beyond Israel; there were no islands in Israel. "The isles", I believe, refer to the extensive rights of Christ over the whole creation. He is going to have His dominion, He is going to reign from shore to shore and over all the lands of the earth. "The isles shall wait for his law". How great this Person is, dear brethren! These are God's own words, "Behold my servant". He brings out these details which we have spoken of briefly. I trust they may touch every heart here, that we may have some impression of God's view of the Lord Jesus Christ, and it may become, at least in a measure, our view too, as we appreciate the graces and beauties that shone and shine in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I refer now to Moses, who was a remarkable servant. I suppose, outside of Christ, he was the most remarkable servant, certainly in the Old Testament. This is an interesting chapter. As we know, Miriam and Aaron had spoken against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman that he had taken. They were speaking against God's sovereignty, and God greatly resented it. He called them out and He utters these remarkable words. It says, "the man Moses was very meek" (verse 3). This

was the character of the one who was the servant of God. It was seen, as we know, in Jesus. "Behold thy King cometh to thee, meek, and mounted upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass", Matthew 21:5. How meek Jesus was, a King and yet in meekness. Moses took character from that. He "was very meek, above all men that were upon the face of the earth". Moses had not begun that way; he acted in the flesh earlier in slaying the Egyptian and so on. He thought that he could attain God's ends and serve God in his own way in the flesh, but he had to learn that that was not the way at all. God brought him down through years of discipline. He schooled Moses that he might become His servant in a particular way. I think Moses is an outstanding example of a ministering servant, one whom God could entrust with His things, one who could serve in relation to His house, as it says later in these verses that we read.

So He calls these persons out and it says, "Jehovah came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood at the entrance of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam ... And he said, Hear now my words", and He speaks about a prophet. "I Jehovah will make myself known to him in a vision, I will speak to him in a dream". Well, that is very good, that is something to be coveted, that God would speak to us in a dream and there might be the gift of what is prophetic in some measure. It is a great thing to have the mind of God in relation to His things and His people. It is a great thing to be in any sense gifted in that way, or to be given a ministry that is prophetic, and I think God would use that. But God says there is something more than that in Moses.

"Not so my servant Moses: he is faithful in all my house". What a commendation, dear brethren! I know in many ways Moses was typical of Christ, but let us remember too that he was a man of like passions to ourselves. Here is God's word. God had watched Moses all through, and saw him refuse the pleasures of Egypt, "choosing rather to suffer affliction along with the people of God", Hebrews 11:25. He watched him as he led the people out of Egypt and in all his exercises in getting them free of the bondage of Pharaoh and so on, and leading them through the wilderness. How much Moses suffered in relation to the people arriving at God's thoughts! God appreciates these things here. He says, "Not so my servant Moses: he is faithful in all my house". How Moses cared for the things of Jehovah, the things of God! The house did not exactly exist. It existed evidently in Moses' affections, and he cared for it, and God appreciated that. I would like to say to all here, especially the young ones, if you set yourself to care for the things of the Lord, the Lord appreciates that, and what is more, He notices it too. Here, God speaks of it as to Moses; He calls attention to it: "He is faithful in all my house. Mouth to mouth do I speak to him openly". What a remarkable touch that is! How intimate God had been with Moses and Moses with God! He had been on the mount forty days and forty nights without human sustenance. He had been sustained there in the presence of God. Moses had desired to see God's glory and God said, "Thou canst not see my face; for Man shall not see me, and live ... I will put thee in a cleft of the rock ... and thou shalt see me

from behind", Exodus 33:20 - 23. I believe that is referred to here in this remarkable expression, "the form of Jehovah doth he behold". That is a remarkable thing. I do not think that is said of anyone else in Scripture. What a remarkable place Moses had! He came as near as it is possible for a man to do, to see something of God's own glory and greatness. It does not in any way contradict the scripture, "whom no man has seen, nor is able to see", 1 Timothy 6:16. No one can see God in His absolute being, but Moses came as near to it as is possible. God was pleased to unfold remarkable things to Moses, because Moses had such affection in relation to God's things and was faithful as a servant in all His house.

"Mouth to mouth do I speak to him openly". The Lord wants to have to do with us too, each one. He wants us to be intimate with Himself, to know what it is to be in the secret of His presence that He might speak to us and we might speak to Him, though the first is the greater -- what He says to us. The Lord is looking for persons who can be His confidants, who can be in the understanding of His thoughts at the present moment. Moses was one such, and is so identified here. God is standing by him, defending him, and saying, very sweetly I believe, "my servant". "Why then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?" Twice in these verses, God is owning him as "my servant". I believe it greatly delighted the heart of God that there was a man here with whom He could speak mouth to mouth, whom He could trust with His people. Think of that! Well over half a million people came out of Egypt; one man had

the leadership, under God's hand, of course. The power was of God, but He used Moses distinctively to lead that multitude of people out. He led them through the wilderness and they were sustained in the power of God, and Moses was outstandingly His servant in relation to it. God, I believe, had great pleasure in identifying him. "Why then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?" We should be very careful, dear brethren, of speaking against the Lord's servants in any measure at all. If the Lord has blessed a man with a measure of gift, and used him to help the saints, as He particularly used Moses, it is not our place to question divine sovereignty or to criticise it in any sense. God stands by him. Is that not beautiful? Everyone here, I think, would like the Lord to be able to stand by him in relation to things. Well, He will, if we are faithful. Moses was faithful in all God's house, and God was faithful to him. "God is faithful, by whom ye have been called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord", 1 Corinthians 1:9. May we have some impression of that, dear brethren, and seek to be marked by the features, in some measure, that marked Moses, that God may identify any one of us as being in the path of service.

I refer now to Caleb in chapter 14. Moses was an outstanding leader, as we know. Caleb was not that. Very simply, Caleb was a man of another spirit. That is, in our language, what was spiritual had been developed in his heart. He loved the idea of the land. He had been in to see the land, he and Joshua, and they brought a good report, and stood by it. The other ten assented at first to the good

report, but they went back on it and were more engaged with the enemies. But Caleb and Joshua held the land in their hearts, as we have often been told, all through those forty years. Here you have God speaking of Caleb in verse 24. God is speaking about those who had seen His glory and His signs in Egypt, and had been marked by unbelief and unfaithfulness. God had had to come in, and none of them would go into the land, but Caleb and Joshua. "But my servant Caleb", God's delight is in that. Think of one man singled out in this way out of that multitude that came out of Egypt, thousands and thousands of them, and here is one man: "But my servant Caleb, because he hath another spirit in him, and hath followed me fully". There are two features there that I would just like to commend to every one. He has another spirit in him. He was activated by a spring of divine thoughts in that way. What was spiritual had precedence with him, and it kept him alive. Caleb said himself, "Jehovah has kept me alive, as he said ... and now behold, I am this day eighty-five years old. I am still this day strong, as in the day that Moses sent me: as my strength was then, even so is my strength now", Joshua 14:10, 11. That is a remarkable thing. Not many of us could say that our strength is the same, but Caleb was sustained, I believe, in spiritual vigour, and God is here singling him out: "But my servant Caleb, because he hath another spirit in him". The second thing is that he had fully followed Jehovah. Let us be marked by a similar full and complete committal.

The work of God, dear brethren, would promote these things in each one of us -- another spirit, a different outlook from persons of the world, a

different outlook even from believers who are immersed in this world, a spirit which is looking heavenward, a spirit that draws on the realm where the Lord Jesus Himself is, a spirit that would look up, a spirit that would be engaged with the beauty and glory of the land into which God is going to bring His people, the land of Canaan. For us that is the enjoyment of heaven now, the enjoyment of the realm where Christ is, to be known here and now by the Spirit who is the Earnest of that inheritance. Well, dear brethren, may we be strengthened in the sense of having another spirit in us, having a spiritual outlook that has been predominant, so that we are not engaged with earthly things. Paul speaks of those "who mind earthly things" (Philippians 3:19), and he would detach us from that, that our minds might be centred on Christ where He is, that heavenly realm, the inheritance that has been prepared for us, to be enjoyed now by the power of the Spirit.

"He hath another spirit in him, and hath followed me fully". The path of discipleship is open to every one. It is a great thing to follow the Lord.

'Wherever we follow Thee, Lord,
Admiring, adoring, we see' (Hymn 197).

The beauty and grace that shone in Him would compel and encourage us to follow Him and then, like Caleb perhaps, to follow fully. That is really the blessedness of the path of discipleship -- not only that we follow Him, but we follow Him fully.

There is no distracting influence, there is no divided objective, it is not one eye on one thing and the other eye on something else. It is a question of a single eye, and that eye focused on Jesus where He is, and focused on the path of discipleship which lies before us; the way that was opened up in the gospels, and then carried through to the Acts, the way that leads to glory. It is a way in which the Lord would help us to follow Him fully. He has opened up the way; He has gone before, and I think He would touch each heart here that you might fully follow Him.

The divine delight here is in Caleb. What a joy it must have been to God to pen this verse! "But my servant Caleb, because he hath another spirit in him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he came; and his seed shall possess it". They did too. It was not long after they had crossed into the land that Caleb came to Joshua wanting his inheritance. They took it, and then he found one who would claim his daughter too, and take further possession. What a seed he had in Achsah, a delightful young woman who was marked by spiritual alacrity. She had another spirit in her too, I think. She learned from her father in that way. She had an appreciation of the inheritance. She wanted the upper and the nether springs to go with it too. "Thou hast given me a southern land", Judges 1:15. She appreciated it. Do you appreciate what the Lord has in mind for you by way of the heavenly inheritance at the present moment, and are you looking for the gift of the Spirit too to enjoy it to the full at the present time, until we are actually translated into it in

reality? "Whereinto he came; and his seed shall possess it". Well, he did, and I believe as we set ourselves on this line that divine Persons have in mind for us, we shall actually come into what God has prepared for those that love Him.

Finally, I say a word as to David. He is referred to here in 1 Chronicles 17 more than once as "my servant David". God sends Nathan to him and, as we know, David's exercise was to build a house for Jehovah, a very good exercise, but God adjusts him. It was not God's mind that he should build the house; it was his son who should build the house. It needs David and Solomon together to set out the beauties and glories of Christ. God reserved the building of the house for Solomon, but He had great blessing too for David and He refers to him affectionately here: "Thus shalt thou say unto my servant David". It refers to the way God had taken him up initially from the pasture-grounds, from following the sheep. "I have been with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee".

Then later down we read as to the son, "I will establish his kingdom. It is he who shall build me a house, and I will establish his throne for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son". That is a beautiful touch. David was owned as "my servant;" Solomon was owned as "my son". When he was born, he was named "Jedidiah, for Jehovah's sake", 2 Samuel 12:25. What delight God had in David and in his seed, in Solomon -- wonderful thing!

What a servant David was! David's peculiar service was in relation to the responsive praise to

God. Moses' service, as we have said, was of a ministering servant. Caleb was a brother who appreciated the inheritance, but David's great part was preparation for the house and setting on the service of song. I read those verses in 1 Chronicles 29, not to go into the detail of them. It does not actually refer to him here as "my servant", but I think you see the fulness of what David was as God's servant when he "blessed Jehovah in the sight of all the congregation" and he speaks so beautifully to God. "Jehovah, the God of our father Israel ... Thine, Jehovah, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the splendour". What wealth David had! He had accumulated much. Both in his affection and in his affliction he had prepared for the house of his God, prepared riches, and he gives them over to Solomon. He told Solomon to be active and to be engaged in the work and to build the house. David too set on the service of song. It says here, "Thine, Jehovah, is the kingdom, and thou art exalted as Head above all; and riches and glory are of thee, and thou rulest over everything; and in thy hand is power and might; and in thy hand it is to make all great and strong. And now, our God, we thank thee, and praise thy glorious name". I think David's great contribution was in this way, in his day, to the service of God. God delighted in that, and God had a special place for David in His affections. He is referred to as "my servant", I think, more times than any other. I think God had great delight in David. He was a man who was declared to be one after God's own heart initially, when taken up (1 Samuel 13:14). How precious that is!

I think in each of these three men there are certain features, all of them speaking of Christ, that come out for the divine delight and pleasure and mark them off, and others too that we have not time to refer to, as companions of Christ, at least in some measure, -- He who, supremely and above all, was marked out by God as "my servant ... mine elect in whom my soul delighteth!" How precious these things are! May we have an impression of this, dear brethren, as a result of this occasion tonight, and may what is for God's pleasure come to light in each of us, as seen in Christ and in these other men too. God delights in this line of those who can serve Him acceptably and for His own glory. May it be so, for His name's sake!

THE CIRCLE OF DIVINE AFFECTIONS

John 17:4 - 26

B.W.B. No doubt there were many and varied impressions this morning. I trust there will be liberty to bring them in and enjoy them together. I was touched by the reference to the 'circle of affections all divine' (Hymn 207) and also with the line of the hymn we had, 'Divine perfection in a Man!' (Hymn 20). Then too, we touched something of what it was to be "transformed ... from glory to glory", 2 Corinthians 3:18. It seems to me that those three things, and no doubt many others too, lead to this beautiful chapter. We get an impression of the circle of divine affections -- the Lord's affections for His Father and for His own, and the Father's affections for Christ, and for the saints too, as secured by Christ. There are three references, as we know, in this chapter to the glory of Christ. There is much to engage our hearts in that way. It is very much in keeping with the glory and beauty of the Lord's day. No doubt we will be following up the impressions that many others will have had this morning as the Lord in His glory was amongst us, taking us into those realms of favour.

I was thankful for the hymn that was given out at the beginning of this reading (Hymn 83) --

'O the wondrous joy of dwelling,
Father, in Thy house above!'

We anticipate its actuality now and enjoy something of that wondrous dwelling-place and of

the Father's love. I trust we might be able to weld our thoughts together and be helped of the Spirit in so doing to gather some impressions freshly of this beautiful chapter.

R.G. I am sure that would be profitable. We certainly had a sense of liberty in our spirits this morning, and I am sure all had. It would be good if that liberty continues to flow now as we are together.

B.W.B. There is a glory and majesty about the Person who is speaking here. The whole chapter is the words of Jesus, as addressed to His Father, as the first verse says. Then where we began to read, we have this majestic statement: "I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it". The Lord is anticipatively speaking as having been into death and come forth triumphant.

R.G. It is a feature that belongs to divine Persons that what is yet to come may be anticipated already, as the Lord does here.

B.W.B. He could say too, earlier in this gospel, "the Son of man who is in heaven", John 3:13. Literally He was there with them, but as to His Person we cannot limit Him to that. He was in heaven; He is, He was and He is to come. That is the Person who is speaking here. "I have glorified thee on the earth".

R.G. There is something particularly choice throughout this chapter, in that it is one divine Person speaking to Another. It is not limited by the state of those who hear, as ministry normally would be, but it is a very precious insight into the divine relationship.

B.W.B. That is an interesting suggestion. I do not know that I have quite seen it like that before. We know it is one divine Person speaking to Another. He is often referring to His own all the way through. He is holding them in the dignity that belongs to His own, holding them in relation to the Father's thoughts, the Father's gift to Himself. Divine sovereignty enters into that.

F.B.F. Is it the divine intent that the assembly should be the most spiritually intelligent vessel as to God's great thoughts, not only developed in love, but in intelligence too?

B.W.B. Yes, I think so. The Lord speaking to them in the way of ministry too would have that in mind. He was leading them on, further and further, in instruction as to the truth, and then, when the Spirit came, He was to bring to their remembrance all the things that Jesus had said to them. That set up the assembly practically and as a reality.

F.B.F. Would the Spirit enable us to enter in some measure into what these mutual relations are between divine Persons and the saints?

B.W.B. Yes, I enjoyed that touch this morning, 'O circle of affections all divine'. That must include all the divine Persons, all three. We do not get a reference to the Spirit in this chapter, but if we bring it to our own day, the Spirit has a vital part in our understanding and enjoyment of these things.

F.B.F. And the thought of manhood, or men, comes into the chapter. God's final tabernacle will be with men.

B.W.B. Yes. That has some link with what has been before us over the past two days; there are

men in full maturity here in this chapter. The Lord is speaking of them from that standpoint, the perfection of His work in them that has brought out manhood.

F.B.F. Men in the relationship of sonship is God's final thought.

B.W.B. Yes, it is God's greatest thought.

T.H.S. Is it not a wonderful thought that, although we are, and remain, creatures, we have part in a creature vessel that is going through into eternity where these thoughts expressed by one divine Person to Another will be enjoyed by the saints?

B.W.B. Yes, I think so. It has been said that the assembly is the nearest vessel to deity. It does not have part in deity, as we clearly understand, but it is brought into the position of the greatest nearness and intimacy to divine Persons, as united to the blessed Man who, in His Person, is "over all, God blessed for ever", Romans 9:5.

F.B.F. Is the song of praise to God in the assembly, led by Christ, a unique song? No other family will sing that song.

B.W.B. It brings out the blessedness of the assembly's position, but it brings out the glory of the Mediator too. We shall ever need the service of the Mediator, and what a Mediator we have, the Man Christ Jesus!

P.A.G. Would the fact that the Lord says, "I have completed the work", involve that now the assembly had been secured, at least anticipatively? That is the completion of the work, is it?

B.W.B. Very good. It would involve the whole of the work on the cross, but it would involve too

His rising triumphant and His glorification and then, as you say, the securing of the assembly, the pearl of great value, for which He gave all. The completion of the work would be seen in that. The giving has been answered in the remarkable gift of the assembly to Himself, as a result of the purpose of God.

P.J.S.McM. Do you think the Lord had peculiar delight in verse 6, speaking of those the Father had given Him "out of the world" and that such have kept His word?

B.W.B. It is a beautiful touch. "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world". The Lord actually selected the twelve, Himself, but here He is going back before that. "The men whom thou gavest me out of the world". They were sovereignly selected and suited to come into that relationship with Christ.

P.J.S.McM. Yes. And the fact that "they have kept thy word" shows there was some response worthy of the Lord.

B.W.B. Yes, I think so. To keep His word is a responsibility, but it is also a great privilege. The Lord says, "The words which I have spoken unto you are spirit and are life", John 6:63. There is a tremendous gain in hearing and keeping His word.

T.H.S. Are you connecting the giving to Him with "chosen us in him before the world's foundation"? Ephesians 1:4. There is much of what is in purpose in this chapter.

B.W.B. Yes, I think so. It is a remarkable privilege to be able to hear the words of this blessed Man, who, in His Person, had part in that

purpose. He is speaking of what He understood completely.

T.H.S. I was thinking of verse 5 and what the Lord says in chapter 20: 17, "to my God". There is the realm which we are not able to compass, and that coming in early in this chapter keeps us in the spirit of reverence, whatever blessedness we are brought into.

B.W.B. It is a glorious Man who is speaking, but that Man is God. Yet as a Man He is approachable and knowable. Divine glory has been expressed towards us in a Man, so that we can appropriate Him and understand His word.

T.H.S. Do you have some thought then as to the three glories of which we are told?

B.W.B. I suppose most here know that the first glory is the glory of deity, "the glory which I had along with thee before the world was". It is something we neither behold nor share; it is distinctly His alone, and marks off that Person above all others.

D.M.C. We have the side of response in John 12:3, "Mary therefore, having taken a pound of ointment of pure nard of great price". Is that the nucleus of the assembly, as we have been taught?

B.W.B. Yes, I am sure that is right. I think this chapter would encourage us in the greatness of Christ, that we would desire to lavish all upon Him as she did there in John 12. "The house was filled with the odour of the ointment", John 12:3. I think in a way it is a counterpart to this. It does not tell us where the speaking in this chapter took place, but I think the whole atmosphere must have been filled with the odour of the ointment that was

ascending to the heart of God from this wonderful prayer.

D.M.C. They were attracted to this glorious Person there in John 12 and they offered what they had.

B.W.B. Yes. Here they do not say anything; it is entirely the Lord's own composition and utterance.

C.E.H. Is the extensiveness of the realm affecting? It refers to the earth: "I have glorified thee on the earth" (verse 4). It involved, no doubt, the accomplishment of redemption, which was effected on the earth. Then, as you say, He was speaking of "before the world was" (verse 5), referring back to the infinitude of deity. Then there is the foundation of the world. "Thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world" (verse 24), involving purpose, do you think? Then there is the testimonial side of the world, "that the world may believe" (verse 21). It seems as though the whole realm that God has entered into in creation is covered by the Lord in these words.

B.W.B. Yes. God's thoughts in purpose are intertwined in this chapter with what Christ has secured Himself in coming into manhood. He is speaking of the two things together as complementing each other, in a sense. I like that touch as to the earth. It was to the earth that Jesus came. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", Genesis 1:1. That is the earth, I think, that is in mind in this chapter, not the way men have degraded it and damaged it and had their way in relation to it, but the earth as it was originally in

God's thoughts, and as it will be seen in the millennium. It is on the earth, in that sense, that Christ glorified the Father.

C.E.H. The work of glorifying the Father on the earth is the basis for everything, because it points to what He accomplished in His life, then on the cross, then in His burial. He speaks of the world creatorially, but then He speaks of it morally, that they might be kept out of the evil that is in the world. These different settings are very affecting, to see the extent of what was in the Lord's heart as He thought of His own.

B.W.B. Yes. But the testimony that has opened up ever since, right down to this moment, has been to the world, that persons might be delivered from it and brought into God's world of which Christ is the Sun and Centre.

P.H.B. Could you say why the world is mentioned so much in this chapter? We do not get heaven, as such, brought in.

B.W.B. I suppose the Lord had many things in mind in this chapter, but I think one of the prominent things He had in mind was the unfolding of the testimony. He speaks about those who will "believe on me through their word" (verse 20), looking down right through the dispensation. The world has been in mind in God's testimonial ways.

P.H.B. Yes. I wondered whether you would say some more as to that, because it is remarkable that in such a sphere of divine affections that should be so prominent.

B.W.B. I suppose John 3:16 helps: "God so loved the world". That is, He has always loved the

idea of the world. It is not that altogether, because the Lord is speaking about the world as against Him in some verses here. But "these are in the world" would suggest that He is leaving them here testimonially, and in that sense, it is the world that God loved. He would bring every one into it if they will.

P.A.G. Would it be right to say that the testimony is here, that is in the world, on the earth, but relationships of which you are speaking are connected with persons? So it is not so much place, as persons. He says, "Now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself". He does not say 'in heaven', although that might be true as to place, but it is "along with thyself". Then later on, He speaks of being with them, and being with the Father and so forth. These relationships are worked out with persons.

B.W.B. I think that is very helpful. It touches what I said at the beginning, 'O circle of affections all divine'. The Lord is opening up to them here that He and the Father are one, but they are to be brought into oneness too. As you say, it is persons who are in mind. The testimony is in persons, and it has been worked out and secured right through in persons who are in this world at the present moment, though not part of it.

F.B.F. We have life eternal in this chapter too. In eternity it will be life. I mean, life eternal is what we are to enter into now, here on earth.

B.W.B. Quite so. So there is a sphere now where eternal life is known and enjoyed. Literally it is in the world, in a sense, but it is certainly not part of it. It has to do with another world.

F.B.F. It involves the knowledge of the Father and the Son.

B.W.B. Yes.

O.W. So is this prayer in the light of what we have at the beginning of chapter 13? The Lord was about to depart out of the world to the Father. "I come to thee", not exactly that He was going to heaven, but "I come to thee". It is a very beautiful personal touch in relation to the Father.

B.W.B. It would have some link with the hymn that our brother gave out --

'O the wondrous joy of dwelling,
Father, in Thy house above!' (Hymn 83).

It was very much before the Lord's affections. He was going to the Father, into that realm from which He had come, but bringing with Him now the spoils of His victory.

D.M.C. Would you say that the Spirit has taken His dwelling place in those persons? The Spirit has not come to the earth, exactly; He has taken His dwelling place in persons.

B.W.B. I think we need to remember that. The Spirit is not exactly on earth; He is in the saints. He is in those who believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, He has taken up His abode in persons. When those persons are caught up, the Spirit will go too. The Spirit is not on earth in the sense in which Jesus was, although of course He bears witness and testimony to the world.

D.M.C. That is in persons.

B.W.B. Yes.

R.G. Do you think this chapter, among other things, brings out the importance of family associations? The full thought that God had in mind for man could only be enjoyed when they were brought into a relationship with Himself, brought near. What is official ceases.

B.W.B. Yes. Does that involve "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world. They were thine, and thou gavest them me"? (verse 6). Relationships are stressed there, very precious too. "They were thine" -- it goes back to the thoughts of divine sovereignty -- "and thou gavest them me". We referred to John 3:35 this morning: "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand". That includes these men here, and by extension every one of us.

R.G. Quite so.

T.H.S. Is it not the mind of God that He should have men in sonship? It is part of what springs out of "the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ", Ephesians 4:13.

B.W.B. Does that not magnify, and explain to us, something of the glory of God's thoughts in relation to man? "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness", Genesis 1:26. That was only secured fully in Christ, and then now, by extension, it has been secured in those who have been made like Him.

T.H.S. I think so. While it was provisional, Adam was only a type. I think what we have touched on in these days has shown us that Christ not only surpasses what Adam was, but He is unique.

B.W.B. So the Lord goes on here to demand concerning them. "I do not demand concerning the world, but concerning those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine, (and all that is mine is thine, and all that is thine mine)". There is a beautiful mutuality there.

J.H.H. Does it bring out the feelings that the Lord has for His own? He speaks about "the men whom thou gavest me", and then He wants those men in association with Himself.

B.W.B. Yes, in association with Him where He is. It is the only way we can know Christ now -- where He is. It is from that position that He comes at the Supper, though there is another side that He comes from the testimonial sphere. He comes in as the glorified One, in view of associating us with Himself, securing His own portion, and leading us in to the Father, and then to the fulness of God.

C.E.H. Would you say something as to the difference between the manifestation of the Father's name, to which He adds, "they have kept thy word;" and then "the words which thou hast given me I have given them, and they have received them, and have known truly that I came out from thee, and have believed that thou sentest me". There seems to be some slight difference between keeping the Father's word, and His giving the Father's words to them (verse 8). I wondered whether giving them His Father's words linked with what Paul said, that he had "not shrunk from announcing to you all the counsel of God", Acts 20:27. They had received them, so is this not a more inward matter that He is speaking of as to the words of the Father, over against the word?

B.W.B. Yes, I think that helps. Manifestation is a general thing and it involves that the Lord had so beautifully put them in touch with the Father. I think keeping the Father's word would be the more general scope of things. The words would be more the detail of all that Christ had to say to them -- the words that the Father had given Him. Does not His glory as Mediator shine in both these thoughts?

R.D.P. The Lord says of these men, "They were thine" (verse 6), but then He says, "they are thine" (verse 9). Does "they are thine" suggest they are brought in in sonship?

B.W.B. I think when He says, "They were thine", it is alluding to divine purpose. Everything belongs to God as the source of all. But when He says, "They are thine", I suppose it is as secured, as you say, in the liberty of sonship in association with Himself.

R.D.P. Yes. I thought it brought in the great work of Christ as securing us in view of God's purpose.

B.W.B. So He came out alone, but He goes back with myriads.

R.D.P. Yes, and the Father delights to embrace those whom He brings into His presence. They "shall be mine", Genesis 48:5.

B.W.B. Yes, and the second and third glories in this chapter, which we may come to, allow us to behold that glory.

C.E.H. Have I the capacity to receive the current communications that the Lord gives us, really involving His headship, as to the great thoughts of God? That seems to be the Lord's burden here. He says later, "and I am glorified in

them", as though the glorification of the saints is connected with our capacity to receive the Father's words that He gives to us.

B.W.B. Yes. I think the Lord had great joy that there were those with whom He could share these things and who could, in their measure, enter into the understanding and enjoyment of them.

F.B.F. Do you think in our entering into the enjoyment and understanding of these things we should be helped if we appreciated more the sovereignty of God? Perhaps we need to think more about that. All of us are here at this time on account of the sovereignty of God. It is a deep thing in the soul. The source, I mean, is all God Himself.

B.W.B. Very good. It has a rock-like character, the sovereignty of God. It is immovable, and it has to do with unfolding the ways of blessing.

F.B.F. Yes. Because God has begun a work in us and it is going to be completed.

B.W.B. Ephesians 1 begins that way: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ" (verse 3). That is His sovereign disposition. As Ephesians goes on, it brings in the fulness of the response to that very God.

T.H.S. "Whom thou hast given me". It was said many hundreds of years ago, would God give anything inferior to His beloved Son? It is a very exalted thought. He would give the best to His Son.

B.W.B. So those whom God selected sovereignly, answer to that sovereignty. Only God

could have worked that out, or have the knowledge of that. God's sovereign selection is always justified eventually. It may take a long time. Take Saul, or Paul; it was a long time before Saul answered to it, but eventually it was bound to be answered.

T.H.S. I think so. It is quite an exercise, though, to get over in our thoughts and affections to the side of God's purpose.

B.W.B. Yes.

J.H.H. Is keeping Thy word the filling out of that purpose? "They have kept thy word".

B.W.B. Yes, I think so. The word would flow from the purpose and it is attended by wonderful blessing as we keep that word. It leads to spiritual life and fruitfulness.

J.H.H. The Lord finds pleasure in saying that "they have kept thy word". This is not a responsible scene here, but a scene of privilege, but the Lord is able to say that to the Father.

B.W.B. So the word had been perfectly passed on by the perfect Servant, the One who was the Son of His love.

J.H.H. As you were saying last night, "Behold my servant" (Isaiah 42:1), take account of Him.

B.W.B. In their measure they had kept it, and the Lord rejoices in it. It is a great thing for every one of us to have a sense that the Lord rejoices in what we are doing. If we are faithful in relation to His testimony, if we love His word and keep it, that rejoices the heart of Christ.

R.G. Had you anything more to say about your earlier remark as to the matter of mutuality? "They were thine, and thou gavest them me".

B.W.B. Only that nothing was lost. What was given was the whole thing in the mind of God and the Lord kept it, and preserved it all too, and brings it back, in a way, with added glory.

R.G. Yes. Do you think it is an attractive insight into the way that divine Persons work together? And the marvel of it is that we are allowed to see something of the secret of that. The capacity by the Spirit to take in divine thoughts is a very great thing.

B.W.B. It is. As to Them working together, it comes in Genesis 22:6, 8, "They went both of them together". It has been said that those words can be written over this gospel.

R.G. So we have a place now in the affections of those Persons as the chapter shows later on. We are bound up with this economy.

B.W.B. Yes.

P.J.S.McM. Do we get some real impression of what the saints mean to the Father and the Son? "I kept them ... I have guarded", and then He asks the Father to keep them. They are so precious to both divine Persons.

B.W.B. Yes, that would give us a sense of sovereign favour and the valuation that God puts upon His people, and how the Lord values every one that He has secured. Even the death of His saints is precious in His sight (Psalm 116:15).

R.V.G. In Matthew the Lord could say, "No one knows the Son but the Father, nor does any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal him", Matthew 11:27. Do we get something of this here? The Lord

said, "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world".

B.W.B. Yes. I think the Lord greatly treasured those men. It is a wonderful thing that the Lord gathered round Him that circle to whom He could make this manifestation, persons that were sympathetic, intelligent too, in their measure, in relation to what He was manifesting to them. So do we all have an interest in what the Lord would open up in that way?

R.V.G. Do you think the Lord had a certain joy in doing this, bringing out things for the Father's pleasure and the purpose of His love?

B.W.B. Yes. He refers to joy in this gospel. "I have spoken these things to you that my joy may be in you, and your joy be full", John 15:11. This chapter, as apprehended, would promote a sense of settled peace and joy in the soul. The Lord has everything in His hands and He is holding His own here, these men, in relation to the glory of divine thoughts. As we said earlier, it also goes on to "those who believe on me through their word". The Lord is speaking of things here in their wonderful scope.

D.M.C. Would you encourage the young people to seek to imbibe something of what they have seen and heard in these meetings, and to learn by it? Paul could say to the Philippians, "What ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, these things do; and the God of peace shall be with you", Philippians 4:9.

B.W.B. Yes. It links with what has been said earlier about keeping His word. We have heard His word and we have heard some of His words too in

these occasions, and they are intended to become formative in every soul. Even the youngest can understand and remember something. We do not remember it all, any of us, but if you can lay hold of something and take it home and make it your own, it will remain there as rock in the soul.

D.M.C. We have all heard and seen something.

B.W.B. Yes. I trust that is all Christ.

F.B.F. Philadelphia is commended for having kept His word (Revelation 3:8), in a broken day.

B.W.B. That shows that it is a current thing. The Lord would look for that amongst His lovers, that they are amongst those who keep His word and have "not denied my name". Others "shall know that I have loved thee" (verse 9).

F.B.F. Keeping His word, do you think, is connected with that little word 'practise' which often occurs in John's writings? How do you keep His word?

B.W.B. First of all you have to receive it. You have to understand what it means and then, I suppose, you simply have to follow it up. The guiding light and principle is the word of the Lord. It regulates everything in my whole life, and all that I take up, put my hand to, would flow from understanding and hearing His word.

F.B.F. And God's sovereign work in our souls would draw us to Him to keep that word.

B.W.B. In a way, I think that is this chapter in a nutshell -- draw us to Him. Divine affections are set out here in Christ and there would be that drawing power of His love. The chapter must have had a great effect on those who heard it, especially on John who records it.

F.B.F. I was thinking of the glory of Christ. He is the Word, all that God has to say to man.

B.W.B. Not only to say, I suppose, but also the whole expression of God.

F.B.F. I wondered whether keeping His word would involve that there is a testimony rendered too.

M.P.W. Is it encouraging that all that we have recorded here is recorded after the public breakdown of the church?

B.W.B. I think you had better explain that.

M.P.W. John's gospel is thought to be the last written, but these divine thoughts go through. We get first the satisfaction of the Godhead in Its own work.

B.W.B. I think that is helpful. Of course the words of the Lord in this chapter were uttered long before the breakdown, but John's ministry is not affected exactly by the breakdown. It is a line of things that goes through in relation to divine thoughts which are unchangeable and, in one sense, beyond the reach of the enemy.

J.H.W. Does verse 18 raise the question of the glory of the glad tidings? What is presented to men in the glad tidings is to be the glory of God and the way that God has sent the Son so that the world might believe.

B.W.B. It is remarkable. "As thou hast sent me into the world". That was as here as Man, of course, from the banks of the Jordan. The Lord was sent with a distinctive message. He likens it now to His sending His own into the world: "I also have sent them into the world". They had a distinctive message.

J.H.W. I wondered that. The sending would involve that they could bring heaven with them, as the Lord would bring it every time He spoke.

B.W.B. Sending is vital in relation to having a word and a message. The Lord had the message in its fulness, and I think the Lord sees to it that anyone He raises up for any service, as they take it up, would have a consciousness of being sent and, as waiting on Him, would have a consciousness of a word too, suited to the occasion. There is an interesting example in Philip in the Acts. He was sent into the desert and he was told to go and join the chariot. When he found the eunuch reading from Isaiah, he began from that very scripture and "announced the glad tidings of Jesus to him", Acts 8:35. That is a mark of one that was sent. He did not have to search for the message, it was there in the scripture, and he was able to use that very scripture to preach the glad tidings to that man.

J.H.W. That should be a great help to anyone who preaches the word.

W.G. I was wondering whether something could be said as to the way the Lord addresses the Father very often in this chapter -- just simply, "Father", and once, "Holy Father" (verse 11), and "Righteous Father" (verse 25). I was wondering as well how that would help us in addressing divine Persons.

B.W.B. I think the Lord addresses the Father as One intimately and affectionately known to Himself. In our measure that should characterise our speaking to divine Persons. The Lord's knowledge of the Father was complete, of course. As Man, He was here and He had these links with

the Father expressed in these varied expressions. "Holy Father", the chapter abounds with references to sanctification and holiness, and I suppose the Lord maintained the holiness which was due to the Father in His whole path of service here. Then "Righteous Father", that is another attribute or moral feature seen in God Himself. That too was maintained. He loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. You have one divine Person here speaking to Another, and these moral features mark God, but they mark His Servant here too, the Lord Jesus Christ.

W.G. I am sure that helps, thank you.

C.E.H. In verse 14 it seems to be the consequence of His giving the word to them that the world hates them. Then He goes on to speak of being sanctified by the truth. "Thy word is truth". There is something living in this chapter. There is current activity by the Lord Himself to keep the saints away from the world, and that they should understand the sanctifying effect of His current word. I think it is a most important thing, because christendom is in darkness, and increasing darkness is marking some brethren that we were once in fellowship with. I think we are only going to be preserved by the sanctifying effect of God's current word.

B.W.B. Yes. I think the word definitely has a sanctifying effect. The word of the Lord, the word of God, comes from another realm altogether and would instruct us in what God's mind is in relation to any matter and would, as you say, help to keep us apart from this world.

J.H.W. Can you help us as to the expression, "I sanctify myself for them"?

B.W.B. I think it brings out the holiness that was in the vessel, Jesus Christ. He set Himself apart from all that was here. He served in direct relationship with His Father. I think that is the point. "I sanctify myself for them". He would show them an example in Himself of what the true servant ought to be and how it was for blessing to stand apart from worldly influence and worldly things.

T.H.S. Is not the key word testimonially in this, that "they are not of the world, as I am not of the world"? Do you think that is something that each one of us, young and old, can understand? We need to have it imprinted in our hearts and minds. "They are not of the world".

B.W.B. Do you think He is saying that all His instruction to them, His example, had shown them that there was another world and that when the Spirit came, He would reinforce that?

T.H.S. Yes. I think what you touched on earlier as to the matter of attraction helps, it is to the Person, but He is Head of another world. But over against that, it remains that we are not of this world.

B.W.B. That is as born of God. God begins something in the soul that has nothing to do with this world, and as it develops and grows and is nurtured, the soul progresses. It is a line of things which is diametrically opposed to this world and all that activates it.

T.H.S. I think that is encouraging, because it would be salutary to us, perhaps if we are left here

tomorrow and through the week, to ask am I doing today that which is furthering what is in the mind of the Father and the Son?

B.W.B. Eternal life has been referred to and it has been defined as an 'out-of-the-world, heavenly condition of relationship and Being'. ⁺ It is in that sphere that I shall be pleasing to divine Persons.

F.B.F. Sanctification is not only being set apart, but set apart for God. There is fruit from your being set apart. Having that object in view would help us in the practical side, what is for God out of what I am doing.

B.W.B. Yes. I think that is very encouraging and practical.

P.A.G. Would it help us to see in this chapter that the Lord is not here the instrument of our blessing, but He is the One in whom we are blessed? We are "taken ... into favour in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:6), not 'by the Beloved'. So in relation to what we have been saying as to being not of this world, we are in the Beloved, that is our place of favour. He is the means, the source, the Person in whom we have favour.

B.W.B. It is somewhat in line with Colossians, where the Father has made us fit and "translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love", Colossians 1:13. It is an attractive thought. It is a kingdom that has nothing to do with this world. "My kingdom is not of this world", the Lord said (John 18:36). It is the kingdom of the Son of God's love.

R.G. Does the fact that what we are speaking of is contrasted so strongly with the world help

⁺J.N.D. Notes and Comments, Volume 2, page 231

us to see that the real antidote to the world and its influence, which is a very real thing at the present time, is a circle where affections are active and love is shown? That of course has its source in divine Persons, but it should be reflected in the activities of the saints.

B.W.B. Yes, I think that helps. That is again one of the touches we had this morning, "we all, looking on the glory of the Lord", 2 Corinthians 3:18. That is a wonderful circle to be in. "Transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit". Perhaps it would link with this second glory here too: "The glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one" (verse 22). It is the glory of sonship, as we know, but it brings us into association with Christ and with one another.

R.G. Yes. It would help us to have a dignified view of one another. We often say these things, but if we really saw the saints as the Lord views them and as the Father views them, what an elevated view it would be!

B.W.B. I think the Supper and what flows out of it is perhaps the most helpful occasion in which to be strengthened in that.

F.B.F. So oneness comes in here. Have you some thought as to that?

B.W.B. It is a very wonderful standard. "That they may be one, as we are one". You cannot exactly explain that statement. It is vast in its bearing. You think of the Father and the Son; as we have already said, "they went both of them together", Genesis 22:6. They were one essentially in Being. But here it is "that they may be one, as we

are one", the power that there is in divine love to attract us into association with Christ.

F.B.F. It was seen in His pathway. He lived on account of the Father (John 6:57). Everything He did was on account of the Father. That puts a different complexion on what is written in John's gospel, as you think of it.

B.W.B. "They may be one" was clearly the Lord's thought and desire here. He had no other thought in relation to His own. Again, I go back to that verse in 2 Corinthians 3"But we all ..." Paul is exhorting the saints there, each one and together, to be absorbed in the adoration and the contemplation of the glory of Christ. I do not know any better way of becoming one amongst the saints, than to all be engaged with Christ's glories.

F.B.F. Beholding His glory, I believe, starts with the way we approach the Supper. The Supper is, "in remembrance of me" (1 Corinthians 11:24), not what I have done, but remember Me. It is just the Person. It is an important view of the Supper, I think. There is, of course, all that He has done in His suffering love, but the main thing is the fulfilment of His promise that He is coming to us.

B.W.B. I think so. That is the way that the Supper is presented in Corinthians and in Luke, the "remembrance of me". It is the way in which it is set in the assembly.

F.B.F. I wondered whether that might help us in entering into this oneness here.

B.W.B. It is very clear in this chapter that oneness amongst the saints is very dear to the heart of Christ, and I suppose all His ministrations, His nourishing and cherishing and serving the saints

through ministry, have that in mind. What we were speaking about yesterday -- growing up to Him in all things, who is the Head -- would help in that oneness.

P.H.B. Would it be right to think of the Lord's constant reference to His Father in prayer as maintaining that oneness in a practical way? Therefore, by extension, our communications with one another would help oneness amongst ourselves.

B.W.B. Yes, I think so. It is a great thing to have one objective. The Lord's objective was the Father's objective, and vice versa. We come together at the Supper with one objective, that is Christ, by that means oneness will be greatly strengthened.

T.H.S. It is one in thought, purpose, counsel, plan. It is not numerical oneness, exactly. It is difficult to express, because it is so perfect in the Persons of the Godhead, but this is the standard.

B.W.B. I think we might just say that oneness is greater than unity. Oneness involves an essential relationship which cannot possibly be divided. Unity rather suggests that what might have been two, or even more, has come together, but oneness, I think, exceeds that. It is "that they may be one", here.

T.H.S. We sometimes sing --

'The Spirit's unity we own
Where diverse we had been' (Hymn 430).

But you could not attach diversity to the Persons of the Godhead at any time.

B.W.B. That greatly helps.

F.B.F. "I desire that where I am they also may be with me". That is a great desire in the heart of Christ, very precious.

B.W.B. Yes. It is beautiful to contemplate that, He speaking here as Man: "I desire". It is the breathings of His own affections. "That where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory". This, as we know, is a glory we can behold, but we are not said to share it. It is His personal glory as Man, because we are able to take account of it. One of the aspects of this glory is this love: "thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world", a settled disposition of love that remains. It is a wonderful thing to think of the Lord as the object of the Father's affections.

R.D.P. Is this very important for us? It is not only those men who were round about Him at that time, but those who would believe on Him through their word. I was thinking of the importance of all of us now laying hold of the truth of what we have been speaking about, and getting into it.

B.W.B. Yes. I think the inclusion of that verse in this chapter is extremely encouraging, and it increases the scope of what the Lord had in mind -- not only those He was in company with, and not only is it addressing the Father, but looking down the whole dispensation, "but also for those who believe on me through their word". That includes the saints at the present moment.

R.D.P. And it sets the gospel in a precious light, that it secures more.

B.W.B. Yes, quite so.

A.D.M. Would Hebrews 2:11 fit? "Both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one". Is that the background to this, that we might be set together in this oneness?

B.W.B. Yes, it is a glorious thought, "he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one". So "he is not ashamed to call them brethren". It involves the intimate link of kindredship of the brethren with Christ, the fruit of His death having a link with Him as coming out of death, having set on a new order of life altogether in which we can be associated with Him. Here in flesh and blood He was alone, but as risen and out of death, He has myriads that He can associate with Himself.

R.V.G. The Lord speaks of us being one in Himself and in the Father, and in verse 23 He also says, "I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one". Can you say something as to that, we being one in both Him and the Father, and then Christ being in us?

B.W.B. I do not know that I can say very much. They are precious words. "I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one". I think it reflects on what we said earlier, that the assembly is the nearest vessel to deity, though here, of course, it is the saints viewed individually, and more in the light of sonship, I suppose. They are brought very close to this oneness that exists between the Father and the Son.

P.A.G. Would it connect with your earlier remarks as to "from glory to glory" (2 Corinthians 3:18)? We would be expanded in our appreciation of divine affections as we go from glory to glory.

B.W.B. I think so. It is a line of increase that is in mind. There were some meetings with Mr. McBride which we have recently republished, 'The Return of the Glory'. ⁺ It is the divine way of things. He is the God of glory, and He begins with glory. Then He has worked, and Christ has secured things, and out of that comes greater glory. Glory is the end too. "From glory to glory". It seems from that verse in 2 Corinthians 3 that the Spirit has the whole scope of that in His affections, "even as by the Lord the Spirit". So we are not dependent on our own understanding, or wisdom; it is of the Spirit that we can progress from glory to glory.